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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Really wealthy people in America don’t just earn a regular paycheck and chuck those earnings into a savings account. Most of their net worth is tied up in assets like stocks and bonds.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>These assets are worth whatever the market says they’re worth on any given day. And if they increase in value…current law says that growth isn’t taxed while it sits there—it only gets taxed when an asset is actually sold.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Because the wealthy hold most of their fortunes as these paper assets, much of their growing wealth goes untaxed year after year. Is that a problem to fix? Or an essential part of the economy that keeps businesses humming?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> How we tax \u003cem>wealth\u003c/em> is exactly what’s under discussion in Prop 42. Here’s how it reads on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over:\u003c/strong> Prohibits new state personal property taxes and certain retroactive state taxes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>(music)\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Erika Cruz-Gavarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We are back with another edition of Prop Fest … where our teams at The Bay and Bay Curious break down each statewide proposition on the California ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re going through Proposition 42, which aims to prevent a wealth tax. Here to walk us through it is KQED political correspondent and co-host of the podcast, Political Breakdown, Marisa Lagos. Welcome, Marissa. Hey. Big picture. What is Prop 42 about?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Property too has to do with what taxes you pay on sort of what you own in California. This is specifically targeting monetary assets. So think about like you pay personal taxes on things like your car, right? Car registration is a type of tax. Part of that bill is based on the value of your car. You might pay property taxes, for example, right. But there are other types of personal property that aren’t taxed right now. And one big example is financial assets like stocks or investment accounts. So you’re not taxed on your retirement account just for having one, right? You get taxed that money when you take it out to spend it. People with stock portfolios are not tax on that either until they try to remove the money and you pay capital gains on whatever the increase has been. So, the investments themselves, though, are not taxed right now. Prop 42 wants to codify the status quo in the Constitution in California, basically by saying you cannot tax monetary assets. And it also does a second thing, which is what opponents say is the real reason it’s on the ballot, is it would prevent California from enacting any kind of new wealth tax on its citizens. Prop 40, of course, that billionaire tax that’s on ballot as well. Is exactly that. It’s a tax on people’s overall wealth, regardless of sort of where it sits.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So this is a clap back to Prop 40, the billionaire tax.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Absolutely. This is one of two ballot measures actually before voters on this ballot that really seeks to undercut or potentially nullify altogether that proposed wealth tax on billionaires. So if Prop 41 or Prop 42 passes with more votes, they could essentially prevent the state from collecting the billionaire tax, even if that also passes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>But\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>Prop 42 isn’t just about billionaires. It bans new taxes on all wealth, and that includes stock portfolios, IRAs, 401Ks, 403Bs, stuff that a lot of everyday Californians have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> That’s right. And I think that’s what you’re going to be hearing from Prop 42 proponents is that this isn’t about billionaires. This is about your retirement account and, you know, protecting it. You know, I will say right now, we don’t, you know, there’s no serious proposals out there that I’ve seen to do something like this. Although when I talked to proponents, they did, you know, mention that there have been some attempts in the legislature, at least introductions of, you know, potential laws that would tax some assets. So. It’s not a totally like out there idea, but I think it’s hard to see this as only about, you know, that issue and all of our 401Ks when you would really have to climb a lot of hurdles in order to get a sort of tax on assets passed as it stands right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So, aside from Prop 40, if you kind of put that to the side and just think about how California or the federal government do tax people in America. The income tax is primarily how things are done. But if we did want to raise taxes on high earners, super high earners, these billionaires, is there even a way to do it that isn’t through a wealth tax that looks at not liquid funds?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I don’t think so, because that’s how these folks have built their wealth. Once you get to that level of wealth, it’s largely because you got stock options from the company that you founded or invested in. And then because of the tax code we have, there’s no incentive to sell that. There’s an incentive not to sell it, right? And so I think that these, that is why we’re seeing something like this billionaire We’ve created a tax code that makes it very easy to avoid paying high taxes if you have this much money. And a lot of the ways that, you know, people sort of go about managing their wealth are with the intention of avoiding taxes that you would otherwise face.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>(music)\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re going to take a quick break, but when we get back, more on Prop 42. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right, we’re back with Marisa Lagos talking about Proposition 42. Marisa, who is supporting this measure that makes it harder to tax wealth here in California, and why?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>So it’s really the same people that are supporting Prop 41 and that oppose Prop 40, the billionaire tax. Building a Better California, which is a PAC that was created by Sergey Brin and others, is funding the campaigns for this measure. They’ve raised almost $50 million to try to get Prop 42 over the finish line. So I sat down with Josh Rauh. He’s a Stanford University finance professor. He’s senior fellow at the Hoover Institution. And he thinks that leaving the door open for a wealth tax could cost the state.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Josh Rauh: \u003c/strong>We’re driving people away. We’re doing with the income taxes, and we’re doing it with this with the proposed wealth taxes So we would have to look for for for other measures economics is pretty clear about what some of the more efficient types of taxes are some of these have to do with consumption taxes meaning taxes on sales, which if you want to Make them progressive could be targeted towards luxury goods\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And there are some groups who are supporting this one who I wasn’t expecting, like California Professional Firefighters, the State Building and Construction Trades Council of California. Why are some of those folks supporting 42?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I mean, what they would say is that they want to protect their retirement accounts, their pensions. You know, one of the trade offs you make being a public servant is often you might make a lower wage than you would in the private sector, but you have good retirement benefits. You have a decent sized pension fund.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Who is fighting this and why? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so SEIU, United Health Care Workers West is the biggest opposition. They’re the ones that wrote Prop 40, the billionaire tax, and they are obviously invested in ensuring not only that it passes, but that these competing measures do not undercut it. So they’re really using the Prop 40 campaign to also campaign against Prop 41 and Prop 42. And, you know, they say that this is not really about protecting average people’s retirement, that this essentially just a red herring to get normal California voters to vote for something that would nullify the wealth tax, the billionaire tax, and that, you know, that they’re essentially just using this threat of taxing your retirement account in order to convince you to do so. I spoke with Emanuel Sayez. He’s a professor of economics at the University of California, Berkeley. He actually helped craft Prop 40, the wealth tax proposal. And he thinks that these concerns about taxing all of our 401Ks are way overblown. He points out the legislature has had the ability to do that, to enact a wealth tax for decades and has never done so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emanuel Saez:\u003c/strong> It’s almost impossible to imagine that they would, by themselves, you know, increase one’s taxes. They are too scared of increasing taxes. Taxes in California are now increased almost suddenly through ballot initiatives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>And that’s true. We rarely see the legislature and governor back tax increases. Most of the time, if they do, it’s to put it on the ballot in front of voters. I think the other thing to point out here is that even if this ballot measure passes, you can still go back to the voters and overturn it. So the idea that this is like putting your retirement in a lockbox and there will never be another attempt to do it, not totally true. You can always go back the voters and change things regardless of, you know, what they voted on before. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Now when it comes to campaign spending. What are we seeing on 42?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Well, the Yes on 42 side has raised and spent most of almost the 50 million dollars in their account. But we’re also seeing some crossover spending. As I said, building a better California, which is that PAC funded by the billionaires, is donating in all three campaigns. They’re putting money against Prop 40 through that PAC. They’re funding money for Props 41 and 42. And I would expect to see Building A Better California to continue. To contribute to the Yes on 42 campaign.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>How do you think voters will be thinking about 40, 41, and 42? Do you think they’re always going to be connecting one to the other? Or could people be, you know, for or against the billionaire attacks and then find something they either like or don’t like in 41 or 42? How connected truly are these?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>The intention of the folks who wrote 41 and 42 is to not talk about the connection to the billionaire tax. They want to just promote what they see as good government measures, and they thought that this was the most politically expedient way to make an argument in a year where billionaires are not super popular, that essentially you don’t have to talk about Prop 40. You can just talk about these. I think on the other side, you’re going to see these labor unions really try to yoke all three measures in voters’ minds in order to ensure that if you support the billionaire tax, you don’t then take a second or third vote that undercuts it. But I think that that is sort of an open question. And given the uneven amount of money, how much more money you have to fight the billionaire tax from the billionaires, it’s going to be a challenge for the labor unions and others to make that case.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Marisa Lagos is a political correspondent at KQED and co-host of the podcast, Political Breakdown. Thanks, Marisa. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 42 means you want no new taxes on investment accounts or personal assets. You also want no retroactive state taxes on paper assets. A no vote means that things stay as they are now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>(music)\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for our latest episode of PropFest. How we doing? How we feeling? Feeling smarter, feeling ready to vote? Well, there’s plenty more where that came from. From now until October 9th, the Bay and Bay Curious teams here at KQED are gonna be dropping breakdowns of all of the statewide propositions on your ballot this year to leave you feeling ready to vote this November. Stay locked in and make sure you’re subscribed to the Bay so you don’t miss out on the next ones.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>PrepFest is a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It’s produced by and me, Olivia Ellen Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from Katie Springer, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, and Ethan Tovin-Lindsey.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>[00:12:38] And the whole KQED family. You can find audio and transcripts for this series at kqed.org slash prop fest.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you appreciate the work that we’re doing here on PropFest, please consider becoming a sustaining member of KQEd. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. I’m Olivia Ellen Price. And I’m Erika Cruz Guevara. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 43, which would raise the threshold for special tax measures. We’ll see you then.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Really wealthy people in America don’t just earn a regular paycheck and chuck those earnings into a savings account. Most of their net worth is tied up in assets like stocks and bonds.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Really wealthy people in America don’t just earn a regular paycheck and chuck those earnings into a savings account. Most of their net worth is tied up in assets like stocks and bonds.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>These assets are worth whatever the market says they’re worth on any given day. And if they increase in value…current law says that growth isn’t taxed while it sits there—it only gets taxed when an asset is actually sold.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>These assets are worth whatever the market says they’re worth on any given day. And if they increase in value…current law says that growth isn’t taxed while it sits there—it only gets taxed when an asset is actually sold.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Because the wealthy hold most of their fortunes as these paper assets, much of their growing wealth goes untaxed year after year. Is that a problem to fix? Or an essential part of the economy that keeps businesses humming?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Because the wealthy hold most of their fortunes as these paper assets, much of their growing wealth goes untaxed year after year. Is that a problem to fix? Or an essential part of the economy that keeps businesses humming?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> How we tax \u003cem>wealth\u003c/em> is exactly what’s under discussion in Prop 42. Here’s how it reads on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> How we tax \u003cem>wealth\u003c/em> is exactly what’s under discussion in Prop 42. Here’s how it reads on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over:\u003c/strong> Prohibits new state personal property taxes and certain retroactive state taxes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Erika Cruz-Gavarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We are back with another edition of Prop Fest … where our teams at The Bay and Bay Curious break down each statewide proposition on the California ballot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re going through Proposition 42, which aims to prevent a wealth tax. Here to walk us through it is KQED political correspondent and co-host of the podcast, Political Breakdown, Marisa Lagos. Welcome, Marissa. Hey. Big picture. What is Prop 42 about?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re going through Proposition 42, which aims to prevent a wealth tax. Here to walk us through it is KQED political correspondent and co-host of the podcast, Political Breakdown, Marisa Lagos. Welcome, Marissa. Hey. Big picture. What is Prop 42 about?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Property too has to do with what taxes you pay on sort of what you own in California. This is specifically targeting monetary assets. So think about like you pay personal taxes on things like your car, right? Car registration is a type of tax. Part of that bill is based on the value of your car. You might pay property taxes, for example, right. But there are other types of personal property that aren’t taxed right now. And one big example is financial assets like stocks or investment accounts. So you’re not taxed on your retirement account just for having one, right? You get taxed that money when you take it out to spend it. People with stock portfolios are not tax on that either until they try to remove the money and you pay capital gains on whatever the increase has been. So, the investments themselves, though, are not taxed right now. Prop 42 wants to codify the status quo in the Constitution in California, basically by saying you cannot tax monetary assets. And it also does a second thing, which is what opponents say is the real reason it’s on the ballot, is it would prevent California from enacting any kind of new wealth tax on its citizens. Prop 40, of course, that billionaire tax that’s on ballot as well. Is exactly that. It’s a tax on people’s overall wealth, regardless of sort of where it sits.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Property too has to do with what taxes you pay on sort of what you own in California. This is specifically targeting monetary assets. So think about like you pay personal taxes on things like your car, right? Car registration is a type of tax. Part of that bill is based on the value of your car. You might pay property taxes, for example, right. But there are other types of personal property that aren’t taxed right now. And one big example is financial assets like stocks or investment accounts. So you’re not taxed on your retirement account just for having one, right? You get taxed that money when you take it out to spend it. People with stock portfolios are not tax on that either until they try to remove the money and you pay capital gains on whatever the increase has been. So, the investments themselves, though, are not taxed right now. Prop 42 wants to codify the status quo in the Constitution in California, basically by saying you cannot tax monetary assets. And it also does a second thing, which is what opponents say is the real reason it’s on the ballot, is it would prevent California from enacting any kind of new wealth tax on its citizens. Prop 40, of course, that billionaire tax that’s on ballot as well. Is exactly that. It’s a tax on people’s overall wealth, regardless of sort of where it sits.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So this is a clap back to Prop 40, the billionaire tax.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Absolutely. This is one of two ballot measures actually before voters on this ballot that really seeks to undercut or potentially nullify altogether that proposed wealth tax on billionaires. So if Prop 41 or Prop 42 passes with more votes, they could essentially prevent the state from collecting the billionaire tax, even if that also passes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Absolutely. This is one of two ballot measures actually before voters on this ballot that really seeks to undercut or potentially nullify altogether that proposed wealth tax on billionaires. So if Prop 41 or Prop 42 passes with more votes, they could essentially prevent the state from collecting the billionaire tax, even if that also passes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>But\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>Prop 42 isn’t just about billionaires. It bans new taxes on all wealth, and that includes stock portfolios, IRAs, 401Ks, 403Bs, stuff that a lot of everyday Californians have.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>But\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>Prop 42 isn’t just about billionaires. It bans new taxes on all wealth, and that includes stock portfolios, IRAs, 401Ks, 403Bs, stuff that a lot of everyday Californians have.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> That’s right. And I think that’s what you’re going to be hearing from Prop 42 proponents is that this isn’t about billionaires. This is about your retirement account and, you know, protecting it. You know, I will say right now, we don’t, you know, there’s no serious proposals out there that I’ve seen to do something like this. Although when I talked to proponents, they did, you know, mention that there have been some attempts in the legislature, at least introductions of, you know, potential laws that would tax some assets. So. It’s not a totally like out there idea, but I think it’s hard to see this as only about, you know, that issue and all of our 401Ks when you would really have to climb a lot of hurdles in order to get a sort of tax on assets passed as it stands right now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> That’s right. And I think that’s what you’re going to be hearing from Prop 42 proponents is that this isn’t about billionaires. This is about your retirement account and, you know, protecting it. You know, I will say right now, we don’t, you know, there’s no serious proposals out there that I’ve seen to do something like this. Although when I talked to proponents, they did, you know, mention that there have been some attempts in the legislature, at least introductions of, you know, potential laws that would tax some assets. So. It’s not a totally like out there idea, but I think it’s hard to see this as only about, you know, that issue and all of our 401Ks when you would really have to climb a lot of hurdles in order to get a sort of tax on assets passed as it stands right now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So, aside from Prop 40, if you kind of put that to the side and just think about how California or the federal government do tax people in America. The income tax is primarily how things are done. But if we did want to raise taxes on high earners, super high earners, these billionaires, is there even a way to do it that isn’t through a wealth tax that looks at not liquid funds?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So, aside from Prop 40, if you kind of put that to the side and just think about how California or the federal government do tax people in America. The income tax is primarily how things are done. But if we did want to raise taxes on high earners, super high earners, these billionaires, is there even a way to do it that isn’t through a wealth tax that looks at not liquid funds?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I don’t think so, because that’s how these folks have built their wealth. Once you get to that level of wealth, it’s largely because you got stock options from the company that you founded or invested in. And then because of the tax code we have, there’s no incentive to sell that. There’s an incentive not to sell it, right? And so I think that these, that is why we’re seeing something like this billionaire We’ve created a tax code that makes it very easy to avoid paying high taxes if you have this much money. And a lot of the ways that, you know, people sort of go about managing their wealth are with the intention of avoiding taxes that you would otherwise face.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I don’t think so, because that’s how these folks have built their wealth. Once you get to that level of wealth, it’s largely because you got stock options from the company that you founded or invested in. And then because of the tax code we have, there’s no incentive to sell that. There’s an incentive not to sell it, right? And so I think that these, that is why we’re seeing something like this billionaire We’ve created a tax code that makes it very easy to avoid paying high taxes if you have this much money. And a lot of the ways that, you know, people sort of go about managing their wealth are with the intention of avoiding taxes that you would otherwise face.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re going to take a quick break, but when we get back, more on Prop 42. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re going to take a quick break, but when we get back, more on Prop 42. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right, we’re back with Marisa Lagos talking about Proposition 42. Marisa, who is supporting this measure that makes it harder to tax wealth here in California, and why?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right, we’re back with Marisa Lagos talking about Proposition 42. Marisa, who is supporting this measure that makes it harder to tax wealth here in California, and why?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>So it’s really the same people that are supporting Prop 41 and that oppose Prop 40, the billionaire tax. Building a Better California, which is a PAC that was created by Sergey Brin and others, is funding the campaigns for this measure. They’ve raised almost $50 million to try to get Prop 42 over the finish line. So I sat down with Josh Rauh. He’s a Stanford University finance professor. He’s senior fellow at the Hoover Institution. And he thinks that leaving the door open for a wealth tax could cost the state.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>So it’s really the same people that are supporting Prop 41 and that oppose Prop 40, the billionaire tax. Building a Better California, which is a PAC that was created by Sergey Brin and others, is funding the campaigns for this measure. They’ve raised almost $50 million to try to get Prop 42 over the finish line. So I sat down with Josh Rauh. He’s a Stanford University finance professor. He’s senior fellow at the Hoover Institution. And he thinks that leaving the door open for a wealth tax could cost the state.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Josh Rauh: \u003c/strong>We’re driving people away. We’re doing with the income taxes, and we’re doing it with this with the proposed wealth taxes So we would have to look for for for other measures economics is pretty clear about what some of the more efficient types of taxes are some of these have to do with consumption taxes meaning taxes on sales, which if you want to Make them progressive could be targeted towards luxury goods\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Josh Rauh: \u003c/strong>We’re driving people away. We’re doing with the income taxes, and we’re doing it with this with the proposed wealth taxes So we would have to look for for for other measures economics is pretty clear about what some of the more efficient types of taxes are some of these have to do with consumption taxes meaning taxes on sales, which if you want to Make them progressive could be targeted towards luxury goods\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And there are some groups who are supporting this one who I wasn’t expecting, like California Professional Firefighters, the State Building and Construction Trades Council of California. Why are some of those folks supporting 42?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And there are some groups who are supporting this one who I wasn’t expecting, like California Professional Firefighters, the State Building and Construction Trades Council of California. Why are some of those folks supporting 42?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I mean, what they would say is that they want to protect their retirement accounts, their pensions. You know, one of the trade offs you make being a public servant is often you might make a lower wage than you would in the private sector, but you have good retirement benefits. You have a decent sized pension fund.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I mean, what they would say is that they want to protect their retirement accounts, their pensions. You know, one of the trade offs you make being a public servant is often you might make a lower wage than you would in the private sector, but you have good retirement benefits. You have a decent sized pension fund.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Who is fighting this and why? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so SEIU, United Health Care Workers West is the biggest opposition. They’re the ones that wrote Prop 40, the billionaire tax, and they are obviously invested in ensuring not only that it passes, but that these competing measures do not undercut it. So they’re really using the Prop 40 campaign to also campaign against Prop 41 and Prop 42. And, you know, they say that this is not really about protecting average people’s retirement, that this essentially just a red herring to get normal California voters to vote for something that would nullify the wealth tax, the billionaire tax, and that, you know, that they’re essentially just using this threat of taxing your retirement account in order to convince you to do so. I spoke with Emanuel Sayez. He’s a professor of economics at the University of California, Berkeley. He actually helped craft Prop 40, the wealth tax proposal. And he thinks that these concerns about taxing all of our 401Ks are way overblown. He points out the legislature has had the ability to do that, to enact a wealth tax for decades and has never done so.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so SEIU, United Health Care Workers West is the biggest opposition. They’re the ones that wrote Prop 40, the billionaire tax, and they are obviously invested in ensuring not only that it passes, but that these competing measures do not undercut it. So they’re really using the Prop 40 campaign to also campaign against Prop 41 and Prop 42. And, you know, they say that this is not really about protecting average people’s retirement, that this essentially just a red herring to get normal California voters to vote for something that would nullify the wealth tax, the billionaire tax, and that, you know, that they’re essentially just using this threat of taxing your retirement account in order to convince you to do so. I spoke with Emanuel Sayez. He’s a professor of economics at the University of California, Berkeley. He actually helped craft Prop 40, the wealth tax proposal. And he thinks that these concerns about taxing all of our 401Ks are way overblown. He points out the legislature has had the ability to do that, to enact a wealth tax for decades and has never done so.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emanuel Saez:\u003c/strong> It’s almost impossible to imagine that they would, by themselves, you know, increase one’s taxes. They are too scared of increasing taxes. Taxes in California are now increased almost suddenly through ballot initiatives.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emanuel Saez:\u003c/strong> It’s almost impossible to imagine that they would, by themselves, you know, increase one’s taxes. They are too scared of increasing taxes. Taxes in California are now increased almost suddenly through ballot initiatives.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>And that’s true. We rarely see the legislature and governor back tax increases. Most of the time, if they do, it’s to put it on the ballot in front of voters. I think the other thing to point out here is that even if this ballot measure passes, you can still go back to the voters and overturn it. So the idea that this is like putting your retirement in a lockbox and there will never be another attempt to do it, not totally true. You can always go back the voters and change things regardless of, you know, what they voted on before. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>And that’s true. We rarely see the legislature and governor back tax increases. Most of the time, if they do, it’s to put it on the ballot in front of voters. I think the other thing to point out here is that even if this ballot measure passes, you can still go back to the voters and overturn it. So the idea that this is like putting your retirement in a lockbox and there will never be another attempt to do it, not totally true. You can always go back the voters and change things regardless of, you know, what they voted on before. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Now when it comes to campaign spending. What are we seeing on 42?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Now when it comes to campaign spending. What are we seeing on 42?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Well, the Yes on 42 side has raised and spent most of almost the 50 million dollars in their account. But we’re also seeing some crossover spending. As I said, building a better California, which is that PAC funded by the billionaires, is donating in all three campaigns. They’re putting money against Prop 40 through that PAC. They’re funding money for Props 41 and 42. And I would expect to see Building A Better California to continue. To contribute to the Yes on 42 campaign.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Well, the Yes on 42 side has raised and spent most of almost the 50 million dollars in their account. But we’re also seeing some crossover spending. As I said, building a better California, which is that PAC funded by the billionaires, is donating in all three campaigns. They’re putting money against Prop 40 through that PAC. They’re funding money for Props 41 and 42. And I would expect to see Building A Better California to continue. To contribute to the Yes on 42 campaign.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>How do you think voters will be thinking about 40, 41, and 42? Do you think they’re always going to be connecting one to the other? Or could people be, you know, for or against the billionaire attacks and then find something they either like or don’t like in 41 or 42? How connected truly are these?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>How do you think voters will be thinking about 40, 41, and 42? Do you think they’re always going to be connecting one to the other? Or could people be, you know, for or against the billionaire attacks and then find something they either like or don’t like in 41 or 42? How connected truly are these?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>The intention of the folks who wrote 41 and 42 is to not talk about the connection to the billionaire tax. They want to just promote what they see as good government measures, and they thought that this was the most politically expedient way to make an argument in a year where billionaires are not super popular, that essentially you don’t have to talk about Prop 40. You can just talk about these. I think on the other side, you’re going to see these labor unions really try to yoke all three measures in voters’ minds in order to ensure that if you support the billionaire tax, you don’t then take a second or third vote that undercuts it. But I think that that is sort of an open question. And given the uneven amount of money, how much more money you have to fight the billionaire tax from the billionaires, it’s going to be a challenge for the labor unions and others to make that case.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>The intention of the folks who wrote 41 and 42 is to not talk about the connection to the billionaire tax. They want to just promote what they see as good government measures, and they thought that this was the most politically expedient way to make an argument in a year where billionaires are not super popular, that essentially you don’t have to talk about Prop 40. You can just talk about these. I think on the other side, you’re going to see these labor unions really try to yoke all three measures in voters’ minds in order to ensure that if you support the billionaire tax, you don’t then take a second or third vote that undercuts it. But I think that that is sort of an open question. And given the uneven amount of money, how much more money you have to fight the billionaire tax from the billionaires, it’s going to be a challenge for the labor unions and others to make that case.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Marisa Lagos is a political correspondent at KQED and co-host of the podcast, Political Breakdown. Thanks, Marisa. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Marisa Lagos is a political correspondent at KQED and co-host of the podcast, Political Breakdown. Thanks, Marisa. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 42 means you want no new taxes on investment accounts or personal assets. You also want no retroactive state taxes on paper assets. A no vote means that things stay as they are now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 42 means you want no new taxes on investment accounts or personal assets. You also want no retroactive state taxes on paper assets. A no vote means that things stay as they are now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for our latest episode of PropFest. How we doing? How we feeling? Feeling smarter, feeling ready to vote? Well, there’s plenty more where that came from. From now until October 9th, the Bay and Bay Curious teams here at KQED are gonna be dropping breakdowns of all of the statewide propositions on your ballot this year to leave you feeling ready to vote this November. Stay locked in and make sure you’re subscribed to the Bay so you don’t miss out on the next ones.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for our latest episode of PropFest. How we doing? How we feeling? Feeling smarter, feeling ready to vote? Well, there’s plenty more where that came from. From now until October 9th, the Bay and Bay Curious teams here at KQED are gonna be dropping breakdowns of all of the statewide propositions on your ballot this year to leave you feeling ready to vote this November. Stay locked in and make sure you’re subscribed to the Bay so you don’t miss out on the next ones.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>PrepFest is a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It’s produced by and me, Olivia Ellen Price.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>PrepFest is a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It’s produced by and me, Olivia Ellen Price.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from Katie Springer, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, and Ethan Tovin-Lindsey.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from Katie Springer, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, and Ethan Tovin-Lindsey.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>[00:12:38] And the whole KQED family. You can find audio and transcripts for this series at kqed.org slash prop fest.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>[00:12:38] And the whole KQED family. You can find audio and transcripts for this series at kqed.org slash prop fest.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you appreciate the work that we’re doing here on PropFest, please consider becoming a sustaining member of KQEd. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. I’m Olivia Ellen Price. And I’m Erika Cruz Guevara. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 43, which would raise the threshold for special tax measures. We’ll see you then.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you appreciate the work that we’re doing here on PropFest, please consider becoming a sustaining member of KQEd. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. I’m Olivia Ellen Price. And I’m Erika Cruz Guevara. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 43, which would raise the threshold for special tax measures. We’ll see you then.\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Really wealthy people in America don’t just earn a regular paycheck and chuck those earnings into a savings account. Most of their net worth is tied up in assets like stocks and bonds.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>These assets are worth whatever the market says they’re worth on any given day. And if they increase in value…current law says that growth isn’t taxed while it sits there—it only gets taxed when an asset is actually sold.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Because the wealthy hold most of their fortunes as these paper assets, much of their growing wealth goes untaxed year after year. Is that a problem to fix? Or an essential part of the economy that keeps businesses humming?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> How we tax \u003cem>wealth\u003c/em> is exactly what’s under discussion in Prop 42. Here’s how it reads on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over:\u003c/strong> Prohibits new state personal property taxes and certain retroactive state taxes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>(music)\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Erika Cruz-Gavarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We are back with another edition of Prop Fest … where our teams at The Bay and Bay Curious break down each statewide proposition on the California ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re going through Proposition 42, which aims to prevent a wealth tax. Here to walk us through it is KQED political correspondent and co-host of the podcast, Political Breakdown, Marisa Lagos. Welcome, Marissa. Hey. Big picture. What is Prop 42 about?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Property too has to do with what taxes you pay on sort of what you own in California. This is specifically targeting monetary assets. So think about like you pay personal taxes on things like your car, right? Car registration is a type of tax. Part of that bill is based on the value of your car. You might pay property taxes, for example, right. But there are other types of personal property that aren’t taxed right now. And one big example is financial assets like stocks or investment accounts. So you’re not taxed on your retirement account just for having one, right? You get taxed that money when you take it out to spend it. People with stock portfolios are not tax on that either until they try to remove the money and you pay capital gains on whatever the increase has been. So, the investments themselves, though, are not taxed right now. Prop 42 wants to codify the status quo in the Constitution in California, basically by saying you cannot tax monetary assets. And it also does a second thing, which is what opponents say is the real reason it’s on the ballot, is it would prevent California from enacting any kind of new wealth tax on its citizens. Prop 40, of course, that billionaire tax that’s on ballot as well. Is exactly that. It’s a tax on people’s overall wealth, regardless of sort of where it sits.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So this is a clap back to Prop 40, the billionaire tax.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Absolutely. This is one of two ballot measures actually before voters on this ballot that really seeks to undercut or potentially nullify altogether that proposed wealth tax on billionaires. So if Prop 41 or Prop 42 passes with more votes, they could essentially prevent the state from collecting the billionaire tax, even if that also passes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>But\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>Prop 42 isn’t just about billionaires. It bans new taxes on all wealth, and that includes stock portfolios, IRAs, 401Ks, 403Bs, stuff that a lot of everyday Californians have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> That’s right. And I think that’s what you’re going to be hearing from Prop 42 proponents is that this isn’t about billionaires. This is about your retirement account and, you know, protecting it. You know, I will say right now, we don’t, you know, there’s no serious proposals out there that I’ve seen to do something like this. Although when I talked to proponents, they did, you know, mention that there have been some attempts in the legislature, at least introductions of, you know, potential laws that would tax some assets. So. It’s not a totally like out there idea, but I think it’s hard to see this as only about, you know, that issue and all of our 401Ks when you would really have to climb a lot of hurdles in order to get a sort of tax on assets passed as it stands right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So, aside from Prop 40, if you kind of put that to the side and just think about how California or the federal government do tax people in America. The income tax is primarily how things are done. But if we did want to raise taxes on high earners, super high earners, these billionaires, is there even a way to do it that isn’t through a wealth tax that looks at not liquid funds?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I don’t think so, because that’s how these folks have built their wealth. Once you get to that level of wealth, it’s largely because you got stock options from the company that you founded or invested in. And then because of the tax code we have, there’s no incentive to sell that. There’s an incentive not to sell it, right? And so I think that these, that is why we’re seeing something like this billionaire We’ve created a tax code that makes it very easy to avoid paying high taxes if you have this much money. And a lot of the ways that, you know, people sort of go about managing their wealth are with the intention of avoiding taxes that you would otherwise face.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>(music)\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re going to take a quick break, but when we get back, more on Prop 42. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right, we’re back with Marisa Lagos talking about Proposition 42. Marisa, who is supporting this measure that makes it harder to tax wealth here in California, and why?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>So it’s really the same people that are supporting Prop 41 and that oppose Prop 40, the billionaire tax. Building a Better California, which is a PAC that was created by Sergey Brin and others, is funding the campaigns for this measure. They’ve raised almost $50 million to try to get Prop 42 over the finish line. So I sat down with Josh Rauh. He’s a Stanford University finance professor. He’s senior fellow at the Hoover Institution. And he thinks that leaving the door open for a wealth tax could cost the state.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Josh Rauh: \u003c/strong>We’re driving people away. We’re doing with the income taxes, and we’re doing it with this with the proposed wealth taxes So we would have to look for for for other measures economics is pretty clear about what some of the more efficient types of taxes are some of these have to do with consumption taxes meaning taxes on sales, which if you want to Make them progressive could be targeted towards luxury goods\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And there are some groups who are supporting this one who I wasn’t expecting, like California Professional Firefighters, the State Building and Construction Trades Council of California. Why are some of those folks supporting 42?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I mean, what they would say is that they want to protect their retirement accounts, their pensions. You know, one of the trade offs you make being a public servant is often you might make a lower wage than you would in the private sector, but you have good retirement benefits. You have a decent sized pension fund.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Who is fighting this and why? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so SEIU, United Health Care Workers West is the biggest opposition. They’re the ones that wrote Prop 40, the billionaire tax, and they are obviously invested in ensuring not only that it passes, but that these competing measures do not undercut it. So they’re really using the Prop 40 campaign to also campaign against Prop 41 and Prop 42. And, you know, they say that this is not really about protecting average people’s retirement, that this essentially just a red herring to get normal California voters to vote for something that would nullify the wealth tax, the billionaire tax, and that, you know, that they’re essentially just using this threat of taxing your retirement account in order to convince you to do so. I spoke with Emanuel Sayez. He’s a professor of economics at the University of California, Berkeley. He actually helped craft Prop 40, the wealth tax proposal. And he thinks that these concerns about taxing all of our 401Ks are way overblown. He points out the legislature has had the ability to do that, to enact a wealth tax for decades and has never done so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emanuel Saez:\u003c/strong> It’s almost impossible to imagine that they would, by themselves, you know, increase one’s taxes. They are too scared of increasing taxes. Taxes in California are now increased almost suddenly through ballot initiatives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>And that’s true. We rarely see the legislature and governor back tax increases. Most of the time, if they do, it’s to put it on the ballot in front of voters. I think the other thing to point out here is that even if this ballot measure passes, you can still go back to the voters and overturn it. So the idea that this is like putting your retirement in a lockbox and there will never be another attempt to do it, not totally true. You can always go back the voters and change things regardless of, you know, what they voted on before. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Now when it comes to campaign spending. What are we seeing on 42?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Well, the Yes on 42 side has raised and spent most of almost the 50 million dollars in their account. But we’re also seeing some crossover spending. As I said, building a better California, which is that PAC funded by the billionaires, is donating in all three campaigns. They’re putting money against Prop 40 through that PAC. They’re funding money for Props 41 and 42. And I would expect to see Building A Better California to continue. To contribute to the Yes on 42 campaign.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>How do you think voters will be thinking about 40, 41, and 42? Do you think they’re always going to be connecting one to the other? Or could people be, you know, for or against the billionaire attacks and then find something they either like or don’t like in 41 or 42? How connected truly are these?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>The intention of the folks who wrote 41 and 42 is to not talk about the connection to the billionaire tax. They want to just promote what they see as good government measures, and they thought that this was the most politically expedient way to make an argument in a year where billionaires are not super popular, that essentially you don’t have to talk about Prop 40. You can just talk about these. I think on the other side, you’re going to see these labor unions really try to yoke all three measures in voters’ minds in order to ensure that if you support the billionaire tax, you don’t then take a second or third vote that undercuts it. But I think that that is sort of an open question. And given the uneven amount of money, how much more money you have to fight the billionaire tax from the billionaires, it’s going to be a challenge for the labor unions and others to make that case.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Marisa Lagos is a political correspondent at KQED and co-host of the podcast, Political Breakdown. Thanks, Marisa. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 42 means you want no new taxes on investment accounts or personal assets. You also want no retroactive state taxes on paper assets. A no vote means that things stay as they are now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>(music)\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for our latest episode of PropFest. How we doing? How we feeling? Feeling smarter, feeling ready to vote? Well, there’s plenty more where that came from. From now until October 9th, the Bay and Bay Curious teams here at KQED are gonna be dropping breakdowns of all of the statewide propositions on your ballot this year to leave you feeling ready to vote this November. Stay locked in and make sure you’re subscribed to the Bay so you don’t miss out on the next ones.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>PrepFest is a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It’s produced by and me, Olivia Ellen Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from Katie Springer, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, and Ethan Tovin-Lindsey.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>[00:12:38] And the whole KQED family. You can find audio and transcripts for this series at kqed.org slash prop fest.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you appreciate the work that we’re doing here on PropFest, please consider becoming a sustaining member of KQEd. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. I’m Olivia Ellen Price. And I’m Erika Cruz Guevara. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 43, which would raise the threshold for special tax measures. We’ll see you then.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Prop 41: Requires New Audits of Special Tax Programs",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>You’re going to see a lot about taxes on this year’s ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yesterday we talked about Prop 40, which would be a one-time tax on billionaires. If you haven’t listened to that episode yet, I suggest you go give it a listen, because today we’re dropping episodes on Props 41 and 42. And both of those are related to Prop 40.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Now, Prop 41 would require more audits on the programs that are funded by special taxes. Is it good governance or red tape meant to make it harder to pass new taxes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>This is how Prop 41 reads on your ballot, and just a warning, it’s pretty wonky.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Prohibits new state taxes that exclude revenues from state spending limit. Requires audits for new state special taxes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Erika Cruz Guevara, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Ellen Price, host of Bay Curious. You’re listening to PropFest, our special series that goes through the statewide propositions on your ballot. They can be so confusing and consequential. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll explain the ins and outs of each one in hopes that you feel confident in your vote, no matter which side you come down on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Here to walk us through Prop 41 is KQED political correspondent and co-host of the podcast, Political Breakdown, Marisa Lagos. Welcome, Marissa. Hey. So the language of Prop 41 sort of sounds like gobbledygook to some voters. And we will straighten that out pretty soon. But maybe before we dive into all those specifics of this ballot measure, give us some context about who put this on the ballot and why.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this was placed on the ballot, essentially by the billionaires who were opposing Prop 40. That’s the billionaire tax. And both Prop 41 and another measure, Prop 42, were written after the billionaire proposal was already out collecting signatures. So they were crafted really as an attempt to undercut that ballot measure. And so it’s kind of impossible to talk about them without talking about the billionaire tax and the billionaires who are trying to kill the tax. Got it. OK, helpful context. So now let’s get into what Prop 41 does. So Prop 41 has kind of three main provisions. The first one is it’s going to require ongoing audits of state programs that are funded by what’s called special taxes. So in California, when tax money comes in, most of it goes to the general fund. That is the main spending account that pays for K-12 schools and most of the things the state does. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, sometimes that revenue has been sort of written into law as a special tax, and those are earmarked for specific programs. You can think of something like the gas tax, which, you know, funds roads and infrastructure. That is not money that goes into the general fund. This measure says that before voters even weigh in on a proposed special tax they need to have an audit of what the money would be spent on. And then it requires ongoing audits in the future if a tax is actually passed. And so it’s being framed by proponents as a good government measure, right? This gives more transparency. Why are we spending billions of dollars in state money and not knowing where it goes essentially? Prop 41 has two other important provisions, and these are the ones that would conflict with the billionaire tax and potentially nullify them. And they both have something to do with the GAN limit, otherwise known as the state spending limit. This was a law put in place by voters in the 1970s, and it puts a cap on how much revenue the state can spend every year. It essentially says that if state revenues grow too fast, you gotta give some of that money back to taxpayers. Some special taxes are excluded from that limit, including the gas tax example. So one of the provisions in Prop 41 says new special taxes would all be subject to the state’s spending limit. So you can imagine if the billionaire tax passes and we have $100 billion in new spending, that would really increase the state revenue, right? So then the other provision prohibits the state from enforcing taxes that are not subject to the spending limit, so. Basically, either of these things would undercut Prop 40.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s dig in a little bit more on that first provision about the audits, because there is a state auditor whose job is to audit what are they doing, are these new audits necessary?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think opponents would say they’re not. You do have the ability of the legislature to request an audit of anything that they vote to. And yeah, we have an auditor who very regularly looks at state agencies and programs and spending and comes out with reports based on what the legislature has decided are the priorities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We need to take a quick break, but when we get back, more on Prop 41. If PropFest is helping you out, let us know by supporting our work. Your donations help keep projects like PropFast going. Contribute at donate.kqed.org. And you can get some sweet podcast swag as a thank you gift.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Welcome back. We’re talking with KQED’s Marisa Lagos about Proposition 41, the tax audit prop. Marisa, let’s get into who supports and opposes this prop. First up, what does support look like?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>This was crafted by the folks who are opposing Proposition 40. It’s been largely funded by the same billionaires who are opposing that, again, sort of led by Sergey Brin. But a lot of familiar names here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Names like Larry Page, who, with Sergey Brin, co-founded Alphabet, Mark Zuckerberg of Meta, Larry Ellison of Oracle, Jensen Huang of NVIDIA, mostly a who’s who of Silicon Valley.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah,\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>but you also have folks like the California Chamber of Commerce, the California Taxpayers Association supporting this, and you know, these are groups that generally think that California spends too much money and have questions about whether it’s being properly spent. I mean, we’ve heard a lot of talk about this around homeless funding, right, in the governor’s race. Like, why are we spending billions of dollars and not addressing the underlying problem or making progress? So I think groups like the Chamber, the Cal Taxpayers Association, first of all, you know, just. Are pretty opposed to higher taxes and regulation, but also think that there would be some benefit in auditing all state spending, especially these special taxes, which, you know, arguably in some cases may not be getting sort of the scrutiny that they could. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Who is lining up against Prop 41 and why? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the opponents are the same groups that are supporting Prop 40 that put the billionaire tax on the ballot. So SEIU, HW West, the State Democratic Party. The California Federation of Labor Unions, they see this really as an attempt to undercut, to nullify the billionaire tax proposal and that it’s not really as much about good government as it is about that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So if Prop 40 and 41 were both to pass, how does that play out?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>On which one gets more votes. If Prop 40 got more votes, then it would stand and the only provisions of Prop 41 I believe that would take effect would be, you know, the audits and the spending limit. It would affect future special taxes, not this one. If 41 got more vote than 40, it would make it sort of unenforceable because so many provisions in 41 conflict with 40 and under California law, if something is on the same ballot together and they’re in a certain way, whatever gets more votes is kind of the law of the land. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>But in the past, I know that’s gone to a judge, ultimately, to decide. Is that what would happen here, too?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I think regardless of whether any of these pass individually, I believe that there will be court challenges.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>How do you think voters are going to be thinking about this suite of three props, proposition 40, 41 and 42? Will they be connecting them all and voting in one direction, or could it go like we’ve seen in the past, where sometimes you get this mixed message from voters on sort of opposing props? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I think that’s really gonna depend on how well the Yes on 40 campaign can draw a straight line between getting someone’s support and getting them to oppose these other measures. The billionaires and other folks who oppose the billionaire tax are not gonna wanna talk about Prop 40 when they talk about props 41 and 42. They wanna make these sort of just standalone good government measures. And so I think that’s sort of an outstanding question because you don’t have a traditional campaign against 41 and 40 too. Can the Yes on 40 folks really make clear in voters’ minds that these are all tied together, and even if you like some of the provisions of these other ballot measures, that by supporting them, you would essentially be casting another vote against the billionaire tax.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When it comes to campaign spending, what are we seeing here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>This one is very lopsided. We’ve seen the folks pushing Prop 41, yes on 41, raise more than 46 million so far. Most of that is coming from the same pack that is fighting the billionaire tax. It’s called Building a Better California. It was founded by Google co-founder Sergey Brin and other billionaires. And I think one thing that’s important to note is that We’re probably going to be seeing some crossover messaging. So a lot of the money being spent on the other ballot measures will also affect this one. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>But sounds like really no spending on the no side.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>No, and I think what you’re seeing is really that these are sort of a combined campaign for the other side. The unions that are pushing the billionaire tax are also pushing back against 41 and 42, but there isn’t that same level of like an organized campaign against each of them, in part because these are good government measures that sound very good on their face. I think it’s not something that you have the same sort of coalition. Able to sort of raise money and stand up against the way you might in some other sort of more traditional fights between the business community and labor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Marisa Lagos is a political correspondent at KQED and co-host of the podcast, Political Breakdown. Thanks, Marisa. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>It was my pleasure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 41 would create new rules about auditing state programs that would receive revenue from special taxes. It would also make new special taxes part of the state’s spending limit. A vote no means things would stay the same as they are now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for PropFest today. This series is a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s produced by Erika Cruz Guevara, Alan Montecillo, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Gabriella Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme and me, Olivia Allen-Price. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from Katie Springer, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>You can find audio and transcripts for this series at kqed.org slash prop fest.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Support for the bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Some members of the KQD podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Erika Cruz Guevara. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 42, which aims to make it harder to create a wealth tax in California. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll get into all that tomorrow. See you then.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>You’re going to see a lot about taxes on this year’s ballot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yesterday we talked about Prop 40, which would be a one-time tax on billionaires. If you haven’t listened to that episode yet, I suggest you go give it a listen, because today we’re dropping episodes on Props 41 and 42. And both of those are related to Prop 40.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yesterday we talked about Prop 40, which would be a one-time tax on billionaires. If you haven’t listened to that episode yet, I suggest you go give it a listen, because today we’re dropping episodes on Props 41 and 42. And both of those are related to Prop 40.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Now, Prop 41 would require more audits on the programs that are funded by special taxes. Is it good governance or red tape meant to make it harder to pass new taxes?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Now, Prop 41 would require more audits on the programs that are funded by special taxes. Is it good governance or red tape meant to make it harder to pass new taxes?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>This is how Prop 41 reads on your ballot, and just a warning, it’s pretty wonky.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>This is how Prop 41 reads on your ballot, and just a warning, it’s pretty wonky.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Prohibits new state taxes that exclude revenues from state spending limit. Requires audits for new state special taxes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Prohibits new state taxes that exclude revenues from state spending limit. Requires audits for new state special taxes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Erika Cruz Guevara, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Erika Cruz Guevara, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Ellen Price, host of Bay Curious. You’re listening to PropFest, our special series that goes through the statewide propositions on your ballot. They can be so confusing and consequential. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Ellen Price, host of Bay Curious. You’re listening to PropFest, our special series that goes through the statewide propositions on your ballot. They can be so confusing and consequential. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll explain the ins and outs of each one in hopes that you feel confident in your vote, no matter which side you come down on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll explain the ins and outs of each one in hopes that you feel confident in your vote, no matter which side you come down on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Here to walk us through Prop 41 is KQED political correspondent and co-host of the podcast, Political Breakdown, Marisa Lagos. Welcome, Marissa. Hey. So the language of Prop 41 sort of sounds like gobbledygook to some voters. And we will straighten that out pretty soon. But maybe before we dive into all those specifics of this ballot measure, give us some context about who put this on the ballot and why.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Here to walk us through Prop 41 is KQED political correspondent and co-host of the podcast, Political Breakdown, Marisa Lagos. Welcome, Marissa. Hey. So the language of Prop 41 sort of sounds like gobbledygook to some voters. And we will straighten that out pretty soon. But maybe before we dive into all those specifics of this ballot measure, give us some context about who put this on the ballot and why.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this was placed on the ballot, essentially by the billionaires who were opposing Prop 40. That’s the billionaire tax. And both Prop 41 and another measure, Prop 42, were written after the billionaire proposal was already out collecting signatures. So they were crafted really as an attempt to undercut that ballot measure. And so it’s kind of impossible to talk about them without talking about the billionaire tax and the billionaires who are trying to kill the tax. Got it. OK, helpful context. So now let’s get into what Prop 41 does. So Prop 41 has kind of three main provisions. The first one is it’s going to require ongoing audits of state programs that are funded by what’s called special taxes. So in California, when tax money comes in, most of it goes to the general fund. That is the main spending account that pays for K-12 schools and most of the things the state does. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this was placed on the ballot, essentially by the billionaires who were opposing Prop 40. That’s the billionaire tax. And both Prop 41 and another measure, Prop 42, were written after the billionaire proposal was already out collecting signatures. So they were crafted really as an attempt to undercut that ballot measure. And so it’s kind of impossible to talk about them without talking about the billionaire tax and the billionaires who are trying to kill the tax. Got it. OK, helpful context. So now let’s get into what Prop 41 does. So Prop 41 has kind of three main provisions. The first one is it’s going to require ongoing audits of state programs that are funded by what’s called special taxes. So in California, when tax money comes in, most of it goes to the general fund. That is the main spending account that pays for K-12 schools and most of the things the state does. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But, sometimes that revenue has been sort of written into law as a special tax, and those are earmarked for specific programs. You can think of something like the gas tax, which, you know, funds roads and infrastructure. That is not money that goes into the general fund. This measure says that before voters even weigh in on a proposed special tax they need to have an audit of what the money would be spent on. And then it requires ongoing audits in the future if a tax is actually passed. And so it’s being framed by proponents as a good government measure, right? This gives more transparency. Why are we spending billions of dollars in state money and not knowing where it goes essentially? Prop 41 has two other important provisions, and these are the ones that would conflict with the billionaire tax and potentially nullify them. And they both have something to do with the GAN limit, otherwise known as the state spending limit. This was a law put in place by voters in the 1970s, and it puts a cap on how much revenue the state can spend every year. It essentially says that if state revenues grow too fast, you gotta give some of that money back to taxpayers. Some special taxes are excluded from that limit, including the gas tax example. So one of the provisions in Prop 41 says new special taxes would all be subject to the state’s spending limit. So you can imagine if the billionaire tax passes and we have $100 billion in new spending, that would really increase the state revenue, right? So then the other provision prohibits the state from enforcing taxes that are not subject to the spending limit, so. Basically, either of these things would undercut Prop 40.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But, sometimes that revenue has been sort of written into law as a special tax, and those are earmarked for specific programs. You can think of something like the gas tax, which, you know, funds roads and infrastructure. That is not money that goes into the general fund. This measure says that before voters even weigh in on a proposed special tax they need to have an audit of what the money would be spent on. And then it requires ongoing audits in the future if a tax is actually passed. And so it’s being framed by proponents as a good government measure, right? This gives more transparency. Why are we spending billions of dollars in state money and not knowing where it goes essentially? Prop 41 has two other important provisions, and these are the ones that would conflict with the billionaire tax and potentially nullify them. And they both have something to do with the GAN limit, otherwise known as the state spending limit. This was a law put in place by voters in the 1970s, and it puts a cap on how much revenue the state can spend every year. It essentially says that if state revenues grow too fast, you gotta give some of that money back to taxpayers. Some special taxes are excluded from that limit, including the gas tax example. So one of the provisions in Prop 41 says new special taxes would all be subject to the state’s spending limit. So you can imagine if the billionaire tax passes and we have $100 billion in new spending, that would really increase the state revenue, right? So then the other provision prohibits the state from enforcing taxes that are not subject to the spending limit, so. Basically, either of these things would undercut Prop 40.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s dig in a little bit more on that first provision about the audits, because there is a state auditor whose job is to audit what are they doing, are these new audits necessary?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s dig in a little bit more on that first provision about the audits, because there is a state auditor whose job is to audit what are they doing, are these new audits necessary?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think opponents would say they’re not. You do have the ability of the legislature to request an audit of anything that they vote to. And yeah, we have an auditor who very regularly looks at state agencies and programs and spending and comes out with reports based on what the legislature has decided are the priorities.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think opponents would say they’re not. You do have the ability of the legislature to request an audit of anything that they vote to. And yeah, we have an auditor who very regularly looks at state agencies and programs and spending and comes out with reports based on what the legislature has decided are the priorities.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We need to take a quick break, but when we get back, more on Prop 41. If PropFest is helping you out, let us know by supporting our work. Your donations help keep projects like PropFast going. Contribute at donate.kqed.org. And you can get some sweet podcast swag as a thank you gift.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We need to take a quick break, but when we get back, more on Prop 41. If PropFest is helping you out, let us know by supporting our work. Your donations help keep projects like PropFast going. Contribute at donate.kqed.org. And you can get some sweet podcast swag as a thank you gift.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Welcome back. We’re talking with KQED’s Marisa Lagos about Proposition 41, the tax audit prop. Marisa, let’s get into who supports and opposes this prop. First up, what does support look like?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Welcome back. We’re talking with KQED’s Marisa Lagos about Proposition 41, the tax audit prop. Marisa, let’s get into who supports and opposes this prop. First up, what does support look like?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>This was crafted by the folks who are opposing Proposition 40. It’s been largely funded by the same billionaires who are opposing that, again, sort of led by Sergey Brin. But a lot of familiar names here. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>This was crafted by the folks who are opposing Proposition 40. It’s been largely funded by the same billionaires who are opposing that, again, sort of led by Sergey Brin. But a lot of familiar names here. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Names like Larry Page, who, with Sergey Brin, co-founded Alphabet, Mark Zuckerberg of Meta, Larry Ellison of Oracle, Jensen Huang of NVIDIA, mostly a who’s who of Silicon Valley.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Names like Larry Page, who, with Sergey Brin, co-founded Alphabet, Mark Zuckerberg of Meta, Larry Ellison of Oracle, Jensen Huang of NVIDIA, mostly a who’s who of Silicon Valley.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah,\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>but you also have folks like the California Chamber of Commerce, the California Taxpayers Association supporting this, and you know, these are groups that generally think that California spends too much money and have questions about whether it’s being properly spent. I mean, we’ve heard a lot of talk about this around homeless funding, right, in the governor’s race. Like, why are we spending billions of dollars and not addressing the underlying problem or making progress? So I think groups like the Chamber, the Cal Taxpayers Association, first of all, you know, just. Are pretty opposed to higher taxes and regulation, but also think that there would be some benefit in auditing all state spending, especially these special taxes, which, you know, arguably in some cases may not be getting sort of the scrutiny that they could. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah,\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>but you also have folks like the California Chamber of Commerce, the California Taxpayers Association supporting this, and you know, these are groups that generally think that California spends too much money and have questions about whether it’s being properly spent. I mean, we’ve heard a lot of talk about this around homeless funding, right, in the governor’s race. Like, why are we spending billions of dollars and not addressing the underlying problem or making progress? So I think groups like the Chamber, the Cal Taxpayers Association, first of all, you know, just. Are pretty opposed to higher taxes and regulation, but also think that there would be some benefit in auditing all state spending, especially these special taxes, which, you know, arguably in some cases may not be getting sort of the scrutiny that they could. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Who is lining up against Prop 41 and why? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Who is lining up against Prop 41 and why? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the opponents are the same groups that are supporting Prop 40 that put the billionaire tax on the ballot. So SEIU, HW West, the State Democratic Party. The California Federation of Labor Unions, they see this really as an attempt to undercut, to nullify the billionaire tax proposal and that it’s not really as much about good government as it is about that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the opponents are the same groups that are supporting Prop 40 that put the billionaire tax on the ballot. So SEIU, HW West, the State Democratic Party. The California Federation of Labor Unions, they see this really as an attempt to undercut, to nullify the billionaire tax proposal and that it’s not really as much about good government as it is about that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So if Prop 40 and 41 were both to pass, how does that play out?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So if Prop 40 and 41 were both to pass, how does that play out?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>On which one gets more votes. If Prop 40 got more votes, then it would stand and the only provisions of Prop 41 I believe that would take effect would be, you know, the audits and the spending limit. It would affect future special taxes, not this one. If 41 got more vote than 40, it would make it sort of unenforceable because so many provisions in 41 conflict with 40 and under California law, if something is on the same ballot together and they’re in a certain way, whatever gets more votes is kind of the law of the land. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>On which one gets more votes. If Prop 40 got more votes, then it would stand and the only provisions of Prop 41 I believe that would take effect would be, you know, the audits and the spending limit. It would affect future special taxes, not this one. If 41 got more vote than 40, it would make it sort of unenforceable because so many provisions in 41 conflict with 40 and under California law, if something is on the same ballot together and they’re in a certain way, whatever gets more votes is kind of the law of the land. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>But in the past, I know that’s gone to a judge, ultimately, to decide. Is that what would happen here, too?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>But in the past, I know that’s gone to a judge, ultimately, to decide. Is that what would happen here, too?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I think regardless of whether any of these pass individually, I believe that there will be court challenges.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I think regardless of whether any of these pass individually, I believe that there will be court challenges.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>How do you think voters are going to be thinking about this suite of three props, proposition 40, 41 and 42? Will they be connecting them all and voting in one direction, or could it go like we’ve seen in the past, where sometimes you get this mixed message from voters on sort of opposing props? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>How do you think voters are going to be thinking about this suite of three props, proposition 40, 41 and 42? Will they be connecting them all and voting in one direction, or could it go like we’ve seen in the past, where sometimes you get this mixed message from voters on sort of opposing props? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I think that’s really gonna depend on how well the Yes on 40 campaign can draw a straight line between getting someone’s support and getting them to oppose these other measures. The billionaires and other folks who oppose the billionaire tax are not gonna wanna talk about Prop 40 when they talk about props 41 and 42. They wanna make these sort of just standalone good government measures. And so I think that’s sort of an outstanding question because you don’t have a traditional campaign against 41 and 40 too. Can the Yes on 40 folks really make clear in voters’ minds that these are all tied together, and even if you like some of the provisions of these other ballot measures, that by supporting them, you would essentially be casting another vote against the billionaire tax.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I think that’s really gonna depend on how well the Yes on 40 campaign can draw a straight line between getting someone’s support and getting them to oppose these other measures. The billionaires and other folks who oppose the billionaire tax are not gonna wanna talk about Prop 40 when they talk about props 41 and 42. They wanna make these sort of just standalone good government measures. And so I think that’s sort of an outstanding question because you don’t have a traditional campaign against 41 and 40 too. Can the Yes on 40 folks really make clear in voters’ minds that these are all tied together, and even if you like some of the provisions of these other ballot measures, that by supporting them, you would essentially be casting another vote against the billionaire tax.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When it comes to campaign spending, what are we seeing here?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>This one is very lopsided. We’ve seen the folks pushing Prop 41, yes on 41, raise more than 46 million so far. Most of that is coming from the same pack that is fighting the billionaire tax. It’s called Building a Better California. It was founded by Google co-founder Sergey Brin and other billionaires. And I think one thing that’s important to note is that We’re probably going to be seeing some crossover messaging. So a lot of the money being spent on the other ballot measures will also affect this one. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>This one is very lopsided. We’ve seen the folks pushing Prop 41, yes on 41, raise more than 46 million so far. Most of that is coming from the same pack that is fighting the billionaire tax. It’s called Building a Better California. It was founded by Google co-founder Sergey Brin and other billionaires. And I think one thing that’s important to note is that We’re probably going to be seeing some crossover messaging. So a lot of the money being spent on the other ballot measures will also affect this one. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>But sounds like really no spending on the no side.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>No, and I think what you’re seeing is really that these are sort of a combined campaign for the other side. The unions that are pushing the billionaire tax are also pushing back against 41 and 42, but there isn’t that same level of like an organized campaign against each of them, in part because these are good government measures that sound very good on their face. I think it’s not something that you have the same sort of coalition. Able to sort of raise money and stand up against the way you might in some other sort of more traditional fights between the business community and labor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>No, and I think what you’re seeing is really that these are sort of a combined campaign for the other side. The unions that are pushing the billionaire tax are also pushing back against 41 and 42, but there isn’t that same level of like an organized campaign against each of them, in part because these are good government measures that sound very good on their face. I think it’s not something that you have the same sort of coalition. Able to sort of raise money and stand up against the way you might in some other sort of more traditional fights between the business community and labor.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Marisa Lagos is a political correspondent at KQED and co-host of the podcast, Political Breakdown. Thanks, Marisa. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Marisa Lagos is a political correspondent at KQED and co-host of the podcast, Political Breakdown. Thanks, Marisa. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>It was my pleasure. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 41 would create new rules about auditing state programs that would receive revenue from special taxes. It would also make new special taxes part of the state’s spending limit. A vote no means things would stay the same as they are now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 41 would create new rules about auditing state programs that would receive revenue from special taxes. It would also make new special taxes part of the state’s spending limit. A vote no means things would stay the same as they are now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for PropFest today. This series is a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for PropFest today. This series is a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s produced by Erika Cruz Guevara, Alan Montecillo, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Gabriella Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme and me, Olivia Allen-Price. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s produced by Erika Cruz Guevara, Alan Montecillo, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Gabriella Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme and me, Olivia Allen-Price. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from Katie Springer, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from Katie Springer, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>You can find audio and transcripts for this series at kqed.org slash prop fest.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>You can find audio and transcripts for this series at kqed.org slash prop fest.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Support for the bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Support for the bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Some members of the KQD podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Erika Cruz Guevara. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 42, which aims to make it harder to create a wealth tax in California. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Erika Cruz Guevara. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 42, which aims to make it harder to create a wealth tax in California. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll get into all that tomorrow. See you then.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll get into all that tomorrow. See you then.\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>You’re going to see a lot about taxes on this year’s ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yesterday we talked about Prop 40, which would be a one-time tax on billionaires. If you haven’t listened to that episode yet, I suggest you go give it a listen, because today we’re dropping episodes on Props 41 and 42. And both of those are related to Prop 40.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Now, Prop 41 would require more audits on the programs that are funded by special taxes. Is it good governance or red tape meant to make it harder to pass new taxes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>This is how Prop 41 reads on your ballot, and just a warning, it’s pretty wonky.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Prohibits new state taxes that exclude revenues from state spending limit. Requires audits for new state special taxes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Erika Cruz Guevara, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Ellen Price, host of Bay Curious. You’re listening to PropFest, our special series that goes through the statewide propositions on your ballot. They can be so confusing and consequential. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll explain the ins and outs of each one in hopes that you feel confident in your vote, no matter which side you come down on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Here to walk us through Prop 41 is KQED political correspondent and co-host of the podcast, Political Breakdown, Marisa Lagos. Welcome, Marissa. Hey. So the language of Prop 41 sort of sounds like gobbledygook to some voters. And we will straighten that out pretty soon. But maybe before we dive into all those specifics of this ballot measure, give us some context about who put this on the ballot and why.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this was placed on the ballot, essentially by the billionaires who were opposing Prop 40. That’s the billionaire tax. And both Prop 41 and another measure, Prop 42, were written after the billionaire proposal was already out collecting signatures. So they were crafted really as an attempt to undercut that ballot measure. And so it’s kind of impossible to talk about them without talking about the billionaire tax and the billionaires who are trying to kill the tax. Got it. OK, helpful context. So now let’s get into what Prop 41 does. So Prop 41 has kind of three main provisions. The first one is it’s going to require ongoing audits of state programs that are funded by what’s called special taxes. So in California, when tax money comes in, most of it goes to the general fund. That is the main spending account that pays for K-12 schools and most of the things the state does. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, sometimes that revenue has been sort of written into law as a special tax, and those are earmarked for specific programs. You can think of something like the gas tax, which, you know, funds roads and infrastructure. That is not money that goes into the general fund. This measure says that before voters even weigh in on a proposed special tax they need to have an audit of what the money would be spent on. And then it requires ongoing audits in the future if a tax is actually passed. And so it’s being framed by proponents as a good government measure, right? This gives more transparency. Why are we spending billions of dollars in state money and not knowing where it goes essentially? Prop 41 has two other important provisions, and these are the ones that would conflict with the billionaire tax and potentially nullify them. And they both have something to do with the GAN limit, otherwise known as the state spending limit. This was a law put in place by voters in the 1970s, and it puts a cap on how much revenue the state can spend every year. It essentially says that if state revenues grow too fast, you gotta give some of that money back to taxpayers. Some special taxes are excluded from that limit, including the gas tax example. So one of the provisions in Prop 41 says new special taxes would all be subject to the state’s spending limit. So you can imagine if the billionaire tax passes and we have $100 billion in new spending, that would really increase the state revenue, right? So then the other provision prohibits the state from enforcing taxes that are not subject to the spending limit, so. Basically, either of these things would undercut Prop 40.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s dig in a little bit more on that first provision about the audits, because there is a state auditor whose job is to audit what are they doing, are these new audits necessary?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think opponents would say they’re not. You do have the ability of the legislature to request an audit of anything that they vote to. And yeah, we have an auditor who very regularly looks at state agencies and programs and spending and comes out with reports based on what the legislature has decided are the priorities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We need to take a quick break, but when we get back, more on Prop 41. If PropFest is helping you out, let us know by supporting our work. Your donations help keep projects like PropFast going. Contribute at donate.kqed.org. And you can get some sweet podcast swag as a thank you gift.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Welcome back. We’re talking with KQED’s Marisa Lagos about Proposition 41, the tax audit prop. Marisa, let’s get into who supports and opposes this prop. First up, what does support look like?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>This was crafted by the folks who are opposing Proposition 40. It’s been largely funded by the same billionaires who are opposing that, again, sort of led by Sergey Brin. But a lot of familiar names here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Names like Larry Page, who, with Sergey Brin, co-founded Alphabet, Mark Zuckerberg of Meta, Larry Ellison of Oracle, Jensen Huang of NVIDIA, mostly a who’s who of Silicon Valley.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah,\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>but you also have folks like the California Chamber of Commerce, the California Taxpayers Association supporting this, and you know, these are groups that generally think that California spends too much money and have questions about whether it’s being properly spent. I mean, we’ve heard a lot of talk about this around homeless funding, right, in the governor’s race. Like, why are we spending billions of dollars and not addressing the underlying problem or making progress? So I think groups like the Chamber, the Cal Taxpayers Association, first of all, you know, just. Are pretty opposed to higher taxes and regulation, but also think that there would be some benefit in auditing all state spending, especially these special taxes, which, you know, arguably in some cases may not be getting sort of the scrutiny that they could. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Who is lining up against Prop 41 and why? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the opponents are the same groups that are supporting Prop 40 that put the billionaire tax on the ballot. So SEIU, HW West, the State Democratic Party. The California Federation of Labor Unions, they see this really as an attempt to undercut, to nullify the billionaire tax proposal and that it’s not really as much about good government as it is about that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So if Prop 40 and 41 were both to pass, how does that play out?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>On which one gets more votes. If Prop 40 got more votes, then it would stand and the only provisions of Prop 41 I believe that would take effect would be, you know, the audits and the spending limit. It would affect future special taxes, not this one. If 41 got more vote than 40, it would make it sort of unenforceable because so many provisions in 41 conflict with 40 and under California law, if something is on the same ballot together and they’re in a certain way, whatever gets more votes is kind of the law of the land. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>But in the past, I know that’s gone to a judge, ultimately, to decide. Is that what would happen here, too?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I think regardless of whether any of these pass individually, I believe that there will be court challenges.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>How do you think voters are going to be thinking about this suite of three props, proposition 40, 41 and 42? Will they be connecting them all and voting in one direction, or could it go like we’ve seen in the past, where sometimes you get this mixed message from voters on sort of opposing props? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I think that’s really gonna depend on how well the Yes on 40 campaign can draw a straight line between getting someone’s support and getting them to oppose these other measures. The billionaires and other folks who oppose the billionaire tax are not gonna wanna talk about Prop 40 when they talk about props 41 and 42. They wanna make these sort of just standalone good government measures. And so I think that’s sort of an outstanding question because you don’t have a traditional campaign against 41 and 40 too. Can the Yes on 40 folks really make clear in voters’ minds that these are all tied together, and even if you like some of the provisions of these other ballot measures, that by supporting them, you would essentially be casting another vote against the billionaire tax.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When it comes to campaign spending, what are we seeing here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>This one is very lopsided. We’ve seen the folks pushing Prop 41, yes on 41, raise more than 46 million so far. Most of that is coming from the same pack that is fighting the billionaire tax. It’s called Building a Better California. It was founded by Google co-founder Sergey Brin and other billionaires. And I think one thing that’s important to note is that We’re probably going to be seeing some crossover messaging. So a lot of the money being spent on the other ballot measures will also affect this one. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>But sounds like really no spending on the no side.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>No, and I think what you’re seeing is really that these are sort of a combined campaign for the other side. The unions that are pushing the billionaire tax are also pushing back against 41 and 42, but there isn’t that same level of like an organized campaign against each of them, in part because these are good government measures that sound very good on their face. I think it’s not something that you have the same sort of coalition. Able to sort of raise money and stand up against the way you might in some other sort of more traditional fights between the business community and labor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Marisa Lagos is a political correspondent at KQED and co-host of the podcast, Political Breakdown. Thanks, Marisa. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>It was my pleasure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 41 would create new rules about auditing state programs that would receive revenue from special taxes. It would also make new special taxes part of the state’s spending limit. A vote no means things would stay the same as they are now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for PropFest today. This series is a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s produced by Erika Cruz Guevara, Alan Montecillo, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Gabriella Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme and me, Olivia Allen-Price. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from Katie Springer, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>You can find audio and transcripts for this series at kqed.org slash prop fest.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Support for the bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Some members of the KQD podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Erika Cruz Guevara. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 42, which aims to make it harder to create a wealth tax in California. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll get into all that tomorrow. See you then.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "proposition-40-imposes-a-one-time-tax-on-billionaires-to-fund-healthcare-and-education",
"title": "Proposition 40: Imposes a One-Time Tax on Billionaires to Fund Healthcare and Education",
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"headTitle": "Proposition 40: Imposes a One-Time Tax on Billionaires to Fund Healthcare and Education | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>If you live in California right now, it’s pretty hard to avoid the ads about Proposition 40, otherwise known as the billionaire tax.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>No on 40 ad clip: \u003c/strong>You have questions about the wealth tax, Prop 40. So here are some facts. Newsom, Becerra, and Hilton are all voting no, calling it sketchy policy that will damage our economy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yes on 40 ad clip: \u003c/strong>We must work together to pass this tax and ensure that our health care services are protected. The billionaire class cannot have it all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Proposition 40 is a one-time 5% tax on the billionaires currently living in California. It’s a hotly debated measure with folks like Bernie Sanders and Governor Gavin Newsom taking sides.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s an interesting one because traditional allies are not lining up the way you might expect on this one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to PropFest. It’s a new week and we’ve got six propositions left to discuss. Our teams at The Bay and Bay Curious are bringing you breakdowns of the statewide propositions on the California ballot, so you can vote with confidence in the November election.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> There are 14 propositions on the ballot this year, and we’ll be taking you through all of them. We’ll be looking at how they got on the ballot, the arguments for and against each one, really talk about how things could play out if they pass, and the money fueling it all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Today we’re discussing Proposition 40, a one-time tax on the wealthiest Californians. It reads like this on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Prop 40 imposes one-time tax on certain taxpayers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Here to walk us through it is KQED political correspondent and co-host of the podcast, Political Breakdown, Marisa Lagos. Welcome, Marissa. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Hey, glad to be here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot to get into on Proposition 40, but before we start on the measure itself, can you give us some context for why this is on our ballot this year?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so this dates back to last year after President Trump took office, he and Republicans in Congress passed what’s known as H.R.1 or the Big Beautiful Bill. That included a reform of the tax code that enacted massive tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans. To pay for those tax cuts, they took billions and billions of dollars out of Medicaid and assistance programs. In California, those cuts will probably be around $30 billion a year that will not be going specifically to Medi-Cal, which is California’s Medicaid program. That’s the health insurance program for low-income Americans. This is basically aimed at replacing that money. Proponents of this tax estimate it would collect around $100 billion over a five-year period. That money would basically go to backfill the cuts from the H.R.1 or the Big Beautiful Bill.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>[00:03:03] And so where does Prop 40 come into all this?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>SEIU-UHW, which is a health care union that represents a lot of rank-and-file health care workers, they saw these cuts coming and decided that they wanted to try to backfill them. And so they came up with this idea to impose a one-time tax on the billionaires in California. It would apply to anyone who has a net worth of over a billion dollars and was living in the state as of January 1 of 2026. So this is a one time tax that would sort of be paid out over a couple of years and the union says it would help essentially avoid massive cuts to the healthcare system, at least for the next few years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And how many billionaires do we have in California? And give us a sense of who these people are.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>There’s an estimated 200 or so people like Larry Page and Sergey Brin who founded Google, Mark Zuckerberg of Meta. Basically the people you hear about the most as being the wealthiest kind of Silicon Valley folks are the ones who are going to be subject to this tax if it passes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And how are they assessing wealth in this scenario? Because I understand this is like, it’s a little bit interesting how they’re planning to get at the wealth of these people because it’s not necessarily the way that sort of everyday people hold their cash.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos \u003c/strong>[00:04:16] Right, so maybe to back up, let’s just talk a little bit about how we pay taxes as sort of average working people, right? If you and I make a salary out of every paycheck, there’s an income tax that is taken by the state. If we have money in the stock market and we sell that stock and we make some capital gains, we would pay based on those capital gains that we realized. And then of course, there are things like property taxes, sales taxes, other things. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The critique of billionaires and really wealthy people is that they don’t make money through the same way that normal people do, right? I think there’s been reporting that Jeff Bezos’ Amazon salary, for example, is like $85,000. So he might actually qualify for some low-income programs based on that. But a lot of the ways that these folks have built their wealth is through stocks and other assets that are being played on Wall Street. And they don’t sort of realize the increase in those numbers unless they were to go and sell them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So how do these billionaires pay for their yachts and their mansions? Well, if you’re that rich, you don’t need an income to essentially go to a bank and say, “hey, look, I’m worth a billion dollars, two billion dollars 100 billion dollars. So you should just give me some loans,” and they get basically loans in really low rates that the rest of us wouldn’t qualify for that help pay for life styles. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This tax would say when you file your taxes as a California resident, you have to check a box to declare whether you’re worth more than a billion dollars. And if you are worth more than a billion dollars, it essentially wants you to tell them how much that overall wealth is. So how much money do you have in your Google stocks if you’re a Sergey brand? How much money have you invested in other companies? You know, if you were Elon Musk, it would be Tesla and SpaceX. And then they want to impose a 5% tax on that overall wealth. So this is a really different kind of novel approach that is not how we have historically taxed people in the United States in general. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For Dave Reagan — who is the head of the union and the guy who basically wrote this proposition — this is like a really simple argument.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dave Regan: \u003c/strong>Just so everyone understands, the billionaires in California pay a tiny percentage of their financial holdings in income tax. They pay two and a half percent. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp> \u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>When you look at sort of what we pay as average Californians and our income tax rates and others, and you compare that to the overall wealth of these folks and how little they pay, that this is just like a simple math problem that this proposition would help fix.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dave Regan: \u003c/strong>Seven years ago in 2019, the aggregate wealth of California billionaires was $700 billion. Today it’s $2.3 trillion. It has more than tripled in the last seven years. Your wages aren’t tripling. My wages aren’t tripling. I don’t know anybody whose salary is tripling.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And how are they Proposing that the money from this one-time tax be used?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>It’s actually pretty vague in the measure. It says that 90% of it would go to healthcare, and then the legislature would have a lot of say over how that money is actually allocated, aimed at helping all those people who would be losing their healthcare or access to it because of the federal cuts. 10% is set aside for other programs, namely food assistance, which was also cut by HR1, as well as schools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>But I understand, like, one critique is that because it is more vague or it’s left to legislators to spend, Californians to some degree, like don’t know exactly what they’re getting with this tax.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think that’s right. The health care system is incredibly expensive and complicated. And I think, you know, because of the way HR1 was written, there’s also a lot of uncertainty in how it’ll actually be carried out. And so I do think that some of that flexibility was built in to account for what we don’t know about how the HR1 cuts would actually play out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And now, I know you’ve spoken to some of the people who are behind this measure, who wrote it. Why are they proposing this as a one-time tax and not something ongoing?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this is a question I really had because it seems like if you’re trying to push back on what are permanent federal cuts, you would want something permanent yourself. And that also, if you are going to go to the trouble of picking this very big fight with the most wealthy people, really in the world, that like, is it worth it for one time? But when I sat down with Dave Reagan, he said that there’s a couple of reasons. One was that he wanted this to be a one-time thing. He didn’t want to give billionaires an incentive to leave California to avoid this. He understands that we are part of a 50 state system and that these are people who can move their wealth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dave Regan: \u003c/strong>We wanted to fix a crisis, solve a problem, and then have enough time to figure out what’s the permanent solution. We wanted, to the extent possible, to take the issue off the table, that the billionaires threatening everybody that they’re gonna leave, there is no incentive for them to leave under our proposal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>The other thing that he and proponents say is that they don’t think these will be permanent cuts, that they want to get Democrats back in power in Congress and win the White House in 2028, and that they wanna see those cuts restored at the federal level, that that is the better way to be funding them. And so they felt that this should just be a one-time tax in order to kind of bridge that gap that they hope is a gap and not a permanent reduction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ve got to take a quick break, but when we return, more on Proposition 40, including what those opposing it are saying. Stay with us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back with Prop Fest, talking proposition 40. Marisa, other than the union that put this on the ballot, who else is supporting Prop 40 and why? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>So in addition to SEIU-UHW, you do have some of the biggest progressive national voices supporting this. Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. In the Bay Area, U.S. Representative Ro Khanna is behind it. The California Federation of Labor, which represents, you know, thousands of unions, did vote to endorse it. The California Democratic Party did vote to endorse Prop 40, but it is largely being driven by SEIU-UHW. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right, and then who is against it? And what are they arguing?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa:\u003c/strong> Everybody else in California. So at the top of the list are the billionaires. Sergey Brin has really taken the lead on this. He’s donated the most money and helped create some organizations that are really funneling money to oppose Prop 40 and push two other ballot measures that they put on the ballot in order to try to undercut Prop 40. But in addition to the billionaires themselves, you do have a really interesting list of folks up to Governor Gavin Newsom who says he opposes this tax. Most of the more high-profile Democrats in California, so in addition to Newsom, you have Xavier Becerra, the likely next governor. You have a lot of people in the legislature and others who are opposing it. And then you have some kind of surprising names. You have the California Teachers Association. You have Planned Parenthood of California. You have some other unions, firefighters and police officers and others that traditionally would probably be on the side of these taxes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then, of course, groups you would expect. The Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association, the California Republican Party, conservative groups who generally just oppose raising taxes in any way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s such an eclectic group. What are their arguments against this measure?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so we’ve really seen a lot of frustration by the governor on down at the fact that this was pushed through. And I think what they say is that it is a poorly designed one-time measure that potentially has the effect of hurting the progressive movement long-term. So their arguments include the idea that it’s gonna be hard to enforce, that this is like only a one-time thing for this ongoing problem, that it could actually essentially hurt California’s ability to stay competitive and to really, you know, be an innovator in the tech space, especially as we see this AI boom happening, that this will sort of scare people off. Newsom himself is trying to thread this needle where he says that he does support a national wealth tax. But that it’s just not the right way to do it at the state level. That this should be a national attack so that you wouldn’t have the ability to sort of avoid it by moving somewhere else.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>One concern that I keep reading about this, Prop 40, is how it could impact California in the future. Can you explain?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>One of the bigger arguments against it, too, is this idea that it could do longer-term damage to the state budget. If, indeed, you buy the argument that this will drive billionaires out of California or other wealthy people, even if it’s not to avoid this one-time tax, but that it’s just creating an environment that is less, you know, that is hostile to developing businesses, the concern is that if you have a lot of wealthy people flee the state, that would result in a huge hit to the state’s operating budget every single year. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I spoke to Joshua Rauh. He’s a Stanford University Finance Professor, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and he is very critical of Prop 40.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Rauh: \u003c/strong>The costs, in this case, with the billionaire tax are that we’re driving billionaires out of the state and we’re also discouraging new entrepreneurs from growing their businesses here. And so that’s really the way to see it. The benefits would potentially be revenue, but we calculate that actually the state’s gonna lose $25 billion from doing this tax.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Mmm so essentially the concern is this wealth tax could drive rich people out of the state, and so California would lose out on the yearly taxes they do pay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> We do have a very progressive tax system here. The highest earners do pay the most into the state budget. And if that pool of folks shrinks, it could have an impact on overall spending every year, which of course goes not just to healthcare, but to. Police and fire and education and all these other areas. So I think part of what Newsom and a lot of the people on his side of things on the Democratic side who oppose this are worried about is that in the short term, this would help shore up the healthcare system, but in the long term, it would really undercut our overall ability to support all those programs that people depend on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another issue Rauh takes with Prop 40 is with how it may force billionaires to make more of their money liquid.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Joshua Rauh: \u003c/strong> If someone has a business that has a value of $1 billion, they’re going to be subject to this tax. They’re going to have to pay $50 million because of this tax, and they may not have that money liquid. That means that they’re gonna have to actually sell off some of this company and you know that that actually removes capital from growing companies. It’s bad for the companies and bad for economy. It’s bad to the labor force.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Now I understand that this would be the first of its kind tax if this is passed in the United States, but similar stuff has been tried elsewhere.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>There was an attempt a few decades ago to levy wealth taxes in some European countries. Most of those, I believe, were repealed. They were much broader. They were not just aimed at billionaires. Billionaires didn’t actually exist in the 90s, let’s not forget. So I think one of what you’ll hear from critics is that you should look at a place like France, which abolished its tax in 2018. After they did see sort of an exodus of a lot of businesses and business people who brought in, you know, a lot money. The flip side to that is that, you know, this is a one-time tax. It is in a state that is the center of these industries.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Now we’re gonna get into props 41 and 42 in detail in some future episodes, but because they are related to prop 40, can you briefly explain how they conflict?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, both Prop 41 and 42 have various other provisions, but they include language that says if they get more votes than Proposition 40, they supersede it. And in both cases, they would sort of undercut key provisions in Prop 40, and essentially make it impossible for the state to enforce the billionaire tax. So if all three pass, but 40 gets fewer votes, it essentially is like it didn’t pass in a lot of ways.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And like we mentioned at the top of this episode, there have been a lot of ads about this measure, which means money. How is campaign spending shaking out on this?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>So there has been money spent so far, and you might already feel like you’re seeing a lot of ads, but actually how much has been spent pales in comparison to what’s going to be spent. There are some estimates that this could be the most expensive ballot measure campaign in state history, so those ads you’re seeing are not going away anytime soon. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On the pro side, the healthcare unions, their allies, have spent, I think, over $30 million by the end of August. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On the other side, just the committee created by the billionaires to fight Prop 40 and push those other competing ballot measures, it’s called Building A Better California, they’ve raised $118 million so far. Most of that has not been spent, a little less than the other side has been spent so far, around $21 million. But they have reserved $87 million in TV and radio time leading up to the fall election. And so you can expect that money is all going to be put out there. Obviously these billionaires have a lot of money and that’s just the money that they’ve put in so far.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I understand that this proposition is polling pretty close right now. So it could seem like a good investment if you can move a couple of voters this way or that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>A hundred percent. I mean, what we’ve seen is that more Californians in these polls tend to favor this than oppose it. However, those numbers are pretty squishy. The kind of common wisdom is that if you’re going into a ballot measure campaign with a well-funded opposition, you want to start around 60% support. This is more in the mid to low fifties in terms of the support and some of the public polling we’ve seen. For both sides, people just get fatigued when they hear too much about any ballot measure and they start getting angry. And that sometimes can lead people to vote no, but if all they’re hearing is a no message, does that flip them the other way? I think there’s a saturation point that the campaigns may have to be concerned about on either side.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Marisa Lagos is a political correspondent at KQED and co-host of the podcas, Political Breakdown. Thanks, Marisa.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 40 means you want to levy a one-time tax of 5% on California’s 200 billionaires, with 90% of the revenue going to support health care in the state, and the other 10% going to fund public education and food assistance programs. A no vote means you do not want to levy a one time tax on billionaires. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you wanna hear more about Prop 40, the billionaire tax, check out Marisa’s podcast, Political Breakdown. She has in-depth interviews with Dave Reagan, who authored Prop 40 and Joshua Rauh, a Stanford economist who’s critical of it. You can find both in the Political Break Down podcast feed and we’ll link in our show notes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for our latest episode of PropFest. How we doing? How we feeling? Feeling smarter? Feeling ready to vote? Well, there’s plenty more where that came from. From now until October 9th, the Bay and Bay Curious teams here at KQED are going to be dropping breakdowns of all the statewide propositions on the ballot this year to leave you feeling ready to vote this November. Stay locked in and make sure you’re subscribed to the Bay and be curious so you don’t miss out on the next ones.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Prop Fest is a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It is produced by: Alan Montecillo, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Gabriella Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>You can find audio and transcripts for this series at kqed.org slash propfest.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you value podcasts like this one, please consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. Learn more at donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Support for the Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I’m Erika Cruz-Gabara. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 41, which takes aim at new special taxes, including the billionaire tax we just talked about. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll see you then!\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>If you live in California right now, it’s pretty hard to avoid the ads about Proposition 40, otherwise known as the billionaire tax.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>If you live in California right now, it’s pretty hard to avoid the ads about Proposition 40, otherwise known as the billionaire tax.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>No on 40 ad clip: \u003c/strong>You have questions about the wealth tax, Prop 40. So here are some facts. Newsom, Becerra, and Hilton are all voting no, calling it sketchy policy that will damage our economy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>No on 40 ad clip: \u003c/strong>You have questions about the wealth tax, Prop 40. So here are some facts. Newsom, Becerra, and Hilton are all voting no, calling it sketchy policy that will damage our economy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yes on 40 ad clip: \u003c/strong>We must work together to pass this tax and ensure that our health care services are protected. The billionaire class cannot have it all.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yes on 40 ad clip: \u003c/strong>We must work together to pass this tax and ensure that our health care services are protected. The billionaire class cannot have it all.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Proposition 40 is a one-time 5% tax on the billionaires currently living in California. It’s a hotly debated measure with folks like Bernie Sanders and Governor Gavin Newsom taking sides.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Proposition 40 is a one-time 5% tax on the billionaires currently living in California. It’s a hotly debated measure with folks like Bernie Sanders and Governor Gavin Newsom taking sides.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s an interesting one because traditional allies are not lining up the way you might expect on this one.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s an interesting one because traditional allies are not lining up the way you might expect on this one.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to PropFest. It’s a new week and we’ve got six propositions left to discuss. Our teams at The Bay and Bay Curious are bringing you breakdowns of the statewide propositions on the California ballot, so you can vote with confidence in the November election.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to PropFest. It’s a new week and we’ve got six propositions left to discuss. Our teams at The Bay and Bay Curious are bringing you breakdowns of the statewide propositions on the California ballot, so you can vote with confidence in the November election.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> There are 14 propositions on the ballot this year, and we’ll be taking you through all of them. We’ll be looking at how they got on the ballot, the arguments for and against each one, really talk about how things could play out if they pass, and the money fueling it all.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> There are 14 propositions on the ballot this year, and we’ll be taking you through all of them. We’ll be looking at how they got on the ballot, the arguments for and against each one, really talk about how things could play out if they pass, and the money fueling it all.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Today we’re discussing Proposition 40, a one-time tax on the wealthiest Californians. It reads like this on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Today we’re discussing Proposition 40, a one-time tax on the wealthiest Californians. It reads like this on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Prop 40 imposes one-time tax on certain taxpayers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Prop 40 imposes one-time tax on certain taxpayers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Here to walk us through it is KQED political correspondent and co-host of the podcast, Political Breakdown, Marisa Lagos. Welcome, Marissa. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Here to walk us through it is KQED political correspondent and co-host of the podcast, Political Breakdown, Marisa Lagos. Welcome, Marissa. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Hey, glad to be here. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Hey, glad to be here. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot to get into on Proposition 40, but before we start on the measure itself, can you give us some context for why this is on our ballot this year?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot to get into on Proposition 40, but before we start on the measure itself, can you give us some context for why this is on our ballot this year?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so this dates back to last year after President Trump took office, he and Republicans in Congress passed what’s known as H.R.1 or the Big Beautiful Bill. That included a reform of the tax code that enacted massive tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans. To pay for those tax cuts, they took billions and billions of dollars out of Medicaid and assistance programs. In California, those cuts will probably be around $30 billion a year that will not be going specifically to Medi-Cal, which is California’s Medicaid program. That’s the health insurance program for low-income Americans. This is basically aimed at replacing that money. Proponents of this tax estimate it would collect around $100 billion over a five-year period. That money would basically go to backfill the cuts from the H.R.1 or the Big Beautiful Bill.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so this dates back to last year after President Trump took office, he and Republicans in Congress passed what’s known as H.R.1 or the Big Beautiful Bill. That included a reform of the tax code that enacted massive tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans. To pay for those tax cuts, they took billions and billions of dollars out of Medicaid and assistance programs. In California, those cuts will probably be around $30 billion a year that will not be going specifically to Medi-Cal, which is California’s Medicaid program. That’s the health insurance program for low-income Americans. This is basically aimed at replacing that money. Proponents of this tax estimate it would collect around $100 billion over a five-year period. That money would basically go to backfill the cuts from the H.R.1 or the Big Beautiful Bill.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>[00:03:03] And so where does Prop 40 come into all this?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>[00:03:03] And so where does Prop 40 come into all this?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>SEIU-UHW, which is a health care union that represents a lot of rank-and-file health care workers, they saw these cuts coming and decided that they wanted to try to backfill them. And so they came up with this idea to impose a one-time tax on the billionaires in California. It would apply to anyone who has a net worth of over a billion dollars and was living in the state as of January 1 of 2026. So this is a one time tax that would sort of be paid out over a couple of years and the union says it would help essentially avoid massive cuts to the healthcare system, at least for the next few years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>SEIU-UHW, which is a health care union that represents a lot of rank-and-file health care workers, they saw these cuts coming and decided that they wanted to try to backfill them. And so they came up with this idea to impose a one-time tax on the billionaires in California. It would apply to anyone who has a net worth of over a billion dollars and was living in the state as of January 1 of 2026. So this is a one time tax that would sort of be paid out over a couple of years and the union says it would help essentially avoid massive cuts to the healthcare system, at least for the next few years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And how many billionaires do we have in California? And give us a sense of who these people are.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And how many billionaires do we have in California? And give us a sense of who these people are.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>There’s an estimated 200 or so people like Larry Page and Sergey Brin who founded Google, Mark Zuckerberg of Meta. Basically the people you hear about the most as being the wealthiest kind of Silicon Valley folks are the ones who are going to be subject to this tax if it passes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>There’s an estimated 200 or so people like Larry Page and Sergey Brin who founded Google, Mark Zuckerberg of Meta. Basically the people you hear about the most as being the wealthiest kind of Silicon Valley folks are the ones who are going to be subject to this tax if it passes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And how are they assessing wealth in this scenario? Because I understand this is like, it’s a little bit interesting how they’re planning to get at the wealth of these people because it’s not necessarily the way that sort of everyday people hold their cash.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And how are they assessing wealth in this scenario? Because I understand this is like, it’s a little bit interesting how they’re planning to get at the wealth of these people because it’s not necessarily the way that sort of everyday people hold their cash.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos \u003c/strong>[00:04:16] Right, so maybe to back up, let’s just talk a little bit about how we pay taxes as sort of average working people, right? If you and I make a salary out of every paycheck, there’s an income tax that is taken by the state. If we have money in the stock market and we sell that stock and we make some capital gains, we would pay based on those capital gains that we realized. And then of course, there are things like property taxes, sales taxes, other things. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos \u003c/strong>[00:04:16] Right, so maybe to back up, let’s just talk a little bit about how we pay taxes as sort of average working people, right? If you and I make a salary out of every paycheck, there’s an income tax that is taken by the state. If we have money in the stock market and we sell that stock and we make some capital gains, we would pay based on those capital gains that we realized. And then of course, there are things like property taxes, sales taxes, other things. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The critique of billionaires and really wealthy people is that they don’t make money through the same way that normal people do, right? I think there’s been reporting that Jeff Bezos’ Amazon salary, for example, is like $85,000. So he might actually qualify for some low-income programs based on that. But a lot of the ways that these folks have built their wealth is through stocks and other assets that are being played on Wall Street. And they don’t sort of realize the increase in those numbers unless they were to go and sell them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The critique of billionaires and really wealthy people is that they don’t make money through the same way that normal people do, right? I think there’s been reporting that Jeff Bezos’ Amazon salary, for example, is like $85,000. So he might actually qualify for some low-income programs based on that. But a lot of the ways that these folks have built their wealth is through stocks and other assets that are being played on Wall Street. And they don’t sort of realize the increase in those numbers unless they were to go and sell them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So how do these billionaires pay for their yachts and their mansions? Well, if you’re that rich, you don’t need an income to essentially go to a bank and say, “hey, look, I’m worth a billion dollars, two billion dollars 100 billion dollars. So you should just give me some loans,” and they get basically loans in really low rates that the rest of us wouldn’t qualify for that help pay for life styles. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So how do these billionaires pay for their yachts and their mansions? Well, if you’re that rich, you don’t need an income to essentially go to a bank and say, “hey, look, I’m worth a billion dollars, two billion dollars 100 billion dollars. So you should just give me some loans,” and they get basically loans in really low rates that the rest of us wouldn’t qualify for that help pay for life styles. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This tax would say when you file your taxes as a California resident, you have to check a box to declare whether you’re worth more than a billion dollars. And if you are worth more than a billion dollars, it essentially wants you to tell them how much that overall wealth is. So how much money do you have in your Google stocks if you’re a Sergey brand? How much money have you invested in other companies? You know, if you were Elon Musk, it would be Tesla and SpaceX. And then they want to impose a 5% tax on that overall wealth. So this is a really different kind of novel approach that is not how we have historically taxed people in the United States in general. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This tax would say when you file your taxes as a California resident, you have to check a box to declare whether you’re worth more than a billion dollars. And if you are worth more than a billion dollars, it essentially wants you to tell them how much that overall wealth is. So how much money do you have in your Google stocks if you’re a Sergey brand? How much money have you invested in other companies? You know, if you were Elon Musk, it would be Tesla and SpaceX. And then they want to impose a 5% tax on that overall wealth. So this is a really different kind of novel approach that is not how we have historically taxed people in the United States in general. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For Dave Reagan — who is the head of the union and the guy who basically wrote this proposition — this is like a really simple argument.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For Dave Reagan — who is the head of the union and the guy who basically wrote this proposition — this is like a really simple argument.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dave Regan: \u003c/strong>Just so everyone understands, the billionaires in California pay a tiny percentage of their financial holdings in income tax. They pay two and a half percent. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dave Regan: \u003c/strong>Just so everyone understands, the billionaires in California pay a tiny percentage of their financial holdings in income tax. They pay two and a half percent. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp> \u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>When you look at sort of what we pay as average Californians and our income tax rates and others, and you compare that to the overall wealth of these folks and how little they pay, that this is just like a simple math problem that this proposition would help fix.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp> \u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>When you look at sort of what we pay as average Californians and our income tax rates and others, and you compare that to the overall wealth of these folks and how little they pay, that this is just like a simple math problem that this proposition would help fix.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dave Regan: \u003c/strong>Seven years ago in 2019, the aggregate wealth of California billionaires was $700 billion. Today it’s $2.3 trillion. It has more than tripled in the last seven years. Your wages aren’t tripling. My wages aren’t tripling. I don’t know anybody whose salary is tripling.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dave Regan: \u003c/strong>Seven years ago in 2019, the aggregate wealth of California billionaires was $700 billion. Today it’s $2.3 trillion. It has more than tripled in the last seven years. Your wages aren’t tripling. My wages aren’t tripling. I don’t know anybody whose salary is tripling.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And how are they Proposing that the money from this one-time tax be used?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And how are they Proposing that the money from this one-time tax be used?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>It’s actually pretty vague in the measure. It says that 90% of it would go to healthcare, and then the legislature would have a lot of say over how that money is actually allocated, aimed at helping all those people who would be losing their healthcare or access to it because of the federal cuts. 10% is set aside for other programs, namely food assistance, which was also cut by HR1, as well as schools.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>It’s actually pretty vague in the measure. It says that 90% of it would go to healthcare, and then the legislature would have a lot of say over how that money is actually allocated, aimed at helping all those people who would be losing their healthcare or access to it because of the federal cuts. 10% is set aside for other programs, namely food assistance, which was also cut by HR1, as well as schools.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>But I understand, like, one critique is that because it is more vague or it’s left to legislators to spend, Californians to some degree, like don’t know exactly what they’re getting with this tax.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>But I understand, like, one critique is that because it is more vague or it’s left to legislators to spend, Californians to some degree, like don’t know exactly what they’re getting with this tax.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think that’s right. The health care system is incredibly expensive and complicated. And I think, you know, because of the way HR1 was written, there’s also a lot of uncertainty in how it’ll actually be carried out. And so I do think that some of that flexibility was built in to account for what we don’t know about how the HR1 cuts would actually play out.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think that’s right. The health care system is incredibly expensive and complicated. And I think, you know, because of the way HR1 was written, there’s also a lot of uncertainty in how it’ll actually be carried out. And so I do think that some of that flexibility was built in to account for what we don’t know about how the HR1 cuts would actually play out.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And now, I know you’ve spoken to some of the people who are behind this measure, who wrote it. Why are they proposing this as a one-time tax and not something ongoing?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And now, I know you’ve spoken to some of the people who are behind this measure, who wrote it. Why are they proposing this as a one-time tax and not something ongoing?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this is a question I really had because it seems like if you’re trying to push back on what are permanent federal cuts, you would want something permanent yourself. And that also, if you are going to go to the trouble of picking this very big fight with the most wealthy people, really in the world, that like, is it worth it for one time? But when I sat down with Dave Reagan, he said that there’s a couple of reasons. One was that he wanted this to be a one-time thing. He didn’t want to give billionaires an incentive to leave California to avoid this. He understands that we are part of a 50 state system and that these are people who can move their wealth.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this is a question I really had because it seems like if you’re trying to push back on what are permanent federal cuts, you would want something permanent yourself. And that also, if you are going to go to the trouble of picking this very big fight with the most wealthy people, really in the world, that like, is it worth it for one time? But when I sat down with Dave Reagan, he said that there’s a couple of reasons. One was that he wanted this to be a one-time thing. He didn’t want to give billionaires an incentive to leave California to avoid this. He understands that we are part of a 50 state system and that these are people who can move their wealth.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dave Regan: \u003c/strong>We wanted to fix a crisis, solve a problem, and then have enough time to figure out what’s the permanent solution. We wanted, to the extent possible, to take the issue off the table, that the billionaires threatening everybody that they’re gonna leave, there is no incentive for them to leave under our proposal.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dave Regan: \u003c/strong>We wanted to fix a crisis, solve a problem, and then have enough time to figure out what’s the permanent solution. We wanted, to the extent possible, to take the issue off the table, that the billionaires threatening everybody that they’re gonna leave, there is no incentive for them to leave under our proposal.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>The other thing that he and proponents say is that they don’t think these will be permanent cuts, that they want to get Democrats back in power in Congress and win the White House in 2028, and that they wanna see those cuts restored at the federal level, that that is the better way to be funding them. And so they felt that this should just be a one-time tax in order to kind of bridge that gap that they hope is a gap and not a permanent reduction.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>The other thing that he and proponents say is that they don’t think these will be permanent cuts, that they want to get Democrats back in power in Congress and win the White House in 2028, and that they wanna see those cuts restored at the federal level, that that is the better way to be funding them. And so they felt that this should just be a one-time tax in order to kind of bridge that gap that they hope is a gap and not a permanent reduction.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ve got to take a quick break, but when we return, more on Proposition 40, including what those opposing it are saying. Stay with us. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ve got to take a quick break, but when we return, more on Proposition 40, including what those opposing it are saying. Stay with us. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back with Prop Fest, talking proposition 40. Marisa, other than the union that put this on the ballot, who else is supporting Prop 40 and why? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back with Prop Fest, talking proposition 40. Marisa, other than the union that put this on the ballot, who else is supporting Prop 40 and why? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>So in addition to SEIU-UHW, you do have some of the biggest progressive national voices supporting this. Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. In the Bay Area, U.S. Representative Ro Khanna is behind it. The California Federation of Labor, which represents, you know, thousands of unions, did vote to endorse it. The California Democratic Party did vote to endorse Prop 40, but it is largely being driven by SEIU-UHW. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>So in addition to SEIU-UHW, you do have some of the biggest progressive national voices supporting this. Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. In the Bay Area, U.S. Representative Ro Khanna is behind it. The California Federation of Labor, which represents, you know, thousands of unions, did vote to endorse it. The California Democratic Party did vote to endorse Prop 40, but it is largely being driven by SEIU-UHW. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right, and then who is against it? And what are they arguing?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right, and then who is against it? And what are they arguing?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa:\u003c/strong> Everybody else in California. So at the top of the list are the billionaires. Sergey Brin has really taken the lead on this. He’s donated the most money and helped create some organizations that are really funneling money to oppose Prop 40 and push two other ballot measures that they put on the ballot in order to try to undercut Prop 40. But in addition to the billionaires themselves, you do have a really interesting list of folks up to Governor Gavin Newsom who says he opposes this tax. Most of the more high-profile Democrats in California, so in addition to Newsom, you have Xavier Becerra, the likely next governor. You have a lot of people in the legislature and others who are opposing it. And then you have some kind of surprising names. You have the California Teachers Association. You have Planned Parenthood of California. You have some other unions, firefighters and police officers and others that traditionally would probably be on the side of these taxes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa:\u003c/strong> Everybody else in California. So at the top of the list are the billionaires. Sergey Brin has really taken the lead on this. He’s donated the most money and helped create some organizations that are really funneling money to oppose Prop 40 and push two other ballot measures that they put on the ballot in order to try to undercut Prop 40. But in addition to the billionaires themselves, you do have a really interesting list of folks up to Governor Gavin Newsom who says he opposes this tax. Most of the more high-profile Democrats in California, so in addition to Newsom, you have Xavier Becerra, the likely next governor. You have a lot of people in the legislature and others who are opposing it. And then you have some kind of surprising names. You have the California Teachers Association. You have Planned Parenthood of California. You have some other unions, firefighters and police officers and others that traditionally would probably be on the side of these taxes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then, of course, groups you would expect. The Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association, the California Republican Party, conservative groups who generally just oppose raising taxes in any way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then, of course, groups you would expect. The Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association, the California Republican Party, conservative groups who generally just oppose raising taxes in any way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s such an eclectic group. What are their arguments against this measure?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s such an eclectic group. What are their arguments against this measure?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so we’ve really seen a lot of frustration by the governor on down at the fact that this was pushed through. And I think what they say is that it is a poorly designed one-time measure that potentially has the effect of hurting the progressive movement long-term. So their arguments include the idea that it’s gonna be hard to enforce, that this is like only a one-time thing for this ongoing problem, that it could actually essentially hurt California’s ability to stay competitive and to really, you know, be an innovator in the tech space, especially as we see this AI boom happening, that this will sort of scare people off. Newsom himself is trying to thread this needle where he says that he does support a national wealth tax. But that it’s just not the right way to do it at the state level. That this should be a national attack so that you wouldn’t have the ability to sort of avoid it by moving somewhere else.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so we’ve really seen a lot of frustration by the governor on down at the fact that this was pushed through. And I think what they say is that it is a poorly designed one-time measure that potentially has the effect of hurting the progressive movement long-term. So their arguments include the idea that it’s gonna be hard to enforce, that this is like only a one-time thing for this ongoing problem, that it could actually essentially hurt California’s ability to stay competitive and to really, you know, be an innovator in the tech space, especially as we see this AI boom happening, that this will sort of scare people off. Newsom himself is trying to thread this needle where he says that he does support a national wealth tax. But that it’s just not the right way to do it at the state level. That this should be a national attack so that you wouldn’t have the ability to sort of avoid it by moving somewhere else.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>One concern that I keep reading about this, Prop 40, is how it could impact California in the future. Can you explain?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>One concern that I keep reading about this, Prop 40, is how it could impact California in the future. Can you explain?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>One of the bigger arguments against it, too, is this idea that it could do longer-term damage to the state budget. If, indeed, you buy the argument that this will drive billionaires out of California or other wealthy people, even if it’s not to avoid this one-time tax, but that it’s just creating an environment that is less, you know, that is hostile to developing businesses, the concern is that if you have a lot of wealthy people flee the state, that would result in a huge hit to the state’s operating budget every single year. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>One of the bigger arguments against it, too, is this idea that it could do longer-term damage to the state budget. If, indeed, you buy the argument that this will drive billionaires out of California or other wealthy people, even if it’s not to avoid this one-time tax, but that it’s just creating an environment that is less, you know, that is hostile to developing businesses, the concern is that if you have a lot of wealthy people flee the state, that would result in a huge hit to the state’s operating budget every single year. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I spoke to Joshua Rauh. He’s a Stanford University Finance Professor, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and he is very critical of Prop 40.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I spoke to Joshua Rauh. He’s a Stanford University Finance Professor, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and he is very critical of Prop 40.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Rauh: \u003c/strong>The costs, in this case, with the billionaire tax are that we’re driving billionaires out of the state and we’re also discouraging new entrepreneurs from growing their businesses here. And so that’s really the way to see it. The benefits would potentially be revenue, but we calculate that actually the state’s gonna lose $25 billion from doing this tax.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Mmm so essentially the concern is this wealth tax could drive rich people out of the state, and so California would lose out on the yearly taxes they do pay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Rauh: \u003c/strong>The costs, in this case, with the billionaire tax are that we’re driving billionaires out of the state and we’re also discouraging new entrepreneurs from growing their businesses here. And so that’s really the way to see it. The benefits would potentially be revenue, but we calculate that actually the state’s gonna lose $25 billion from doing this tax.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Mmm so essentially the concern is this wealth tax could drive rich people out of the state, and so California would lose out on the yearly taxes they do pay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> We do have a very progressive tax system here. The highest earners do pay the most into the state budget. And if that pool of folks shrinks, it could have an impact on overall spending every year, which of course goes not just to healthcare, but to. Police and fire and education and all these other areas. So I think part of what Newsom and a lot of the people on his side of things on the Democratic side who oppose this are worried about is that in the short term, this would help shore up the healthcare system, but in the long term, it would really undercut our overall ability to support all those programs that people depend on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> We do have a very progressive tax system here. The highest earners do pay the most into the state budget. And if that pool of folks shrinks, it could have an impact on overall spending every year, which of course goes not just to healthcare, but to. Police and fire and education and all these other areas. So I think part of what Newsom and a lot of the people on his side of things on the Democratic side who oppose this are worried about is that in the short term, this would help shore up the healthcare system, but in the long term, it would really undercut our overall ability to support all those programs that people depend on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Another issue Rauh takes with Prop 40 is with how it may force billionaires to make more of their money liquid.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Joshua Rauh: \u003c/strong> If someone has a business that has a value of $1 billion, they’re going to be subject to this tax. They’re going to have to pay $50 million because of this tax, and they may not have that money liquid. That means that they’re gonna have to actually sell off some of this company and you know that that actually removes capital from growing companies. It’s bad for the companies and bad for economy. It’s bad to the labor force.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Another issue Rauh takes with Prop 40 is with how it may force billionaires to make more of their money liquid.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Joshua Rauh: \u003c/strong> If someone has a business that has a value of $1 billion, they’re going to be subject to this tax. They’re going to have to pay $50 million because of this tax, and they may not have that money liquid. That means that they’re gonna have to actually sell off some of this company and you know that that actually removes capital from growing companies. It’s bad for the companies and bad for economy. It’s bad to the labor force.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Now I understand that this would be the first of its kind tax if this is passed in the United States, but similar stuff has been tried elsewhere.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Now I understand that this would be the first of its kind tax if this is passed in the United States, but similar stuff has been tried elsewhere.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>There was an attempt a few decades ago to levy wealth taxes in some European countries. Most of those, I believe, were repealed. They were much broader. They were not just aimed at billionaires. Billionaires didn’t actually exist in the 90s, let’s not forget. So I think one of what you’ll hear from critics is that you should look at a place like France, which abolished its tax in 2018. After they did see sort of an exodus of a lot of businesses and business people who brought in, you know, a lot money. The flip side to that is that, you know, this is a one-time tax. It is in a state that is the center of these industries.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>There was an attempt a few decades ago to levy wealth taxes in some European countries. Most of those, I believe, were repealed. They were much broader. They were not just aimed at billionaires. Billionaires didn’t actually exist in the 90s, let’s not forget. So I think one of what you’ll hear from critics is that you should look at a place like France, which abolished its tax in 2018. After they did see sort of an exodus of a lot of businesses and business people who brought in, you know, a lot money. The flip side to that is that, you know, this is a one-time tax. It is in a state that is the center of these industries.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Now we’re gonna get into props 41 and 42 in detail in some future episodes, but because they are related to prop 40, can you briefly explain how they conflict?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Now we’re gonna get into props 41 and 42 in detail in some future episodes, but because they are related to prop 40, can you briefly explain how they conflict?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, both Prop 41 and 42 have various other provisions, but they include language that says if they get more votes than Proposition 40, they supersede it. And in both cases, they would sort of undercut key provisions in Prop 40, and essentially make it impossible for the state to enforce the billionaire tax. So if all three pass, but 40 gets fewer votes, it essentially is like it didn’t pass in a lot of ways.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, both Prop 41 and 42 have various other provisions, but they include language that says if they get more votes than Proposition 40, they supersede it. And in both cases, they would sort of undercut key provisions in Prop 40, and essentially make it impossible for the state to enforce the billionaire tax. So if all three pass, but 40 gets fewer votes, it essentially is like it didn’t pass in a lot of ways.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And like we mentioned at the top of this episode, there have been a lot of ads about this measure, which means money. How is campaign spending shaking out on this?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And like we mentioned at the top of this episode, there have been a lot of ads about this measure, which means money. How is campaign spending shaking out on this?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>So there has been money spent so far, and you might already feel like you’re seeing a lot of ads, but actually how much has been spent pales in comparison to what’s going to be spent. There are some estimates that this could be the most expensive ballot measure campaign in state history, so those ads you’re seeing are not going away anytime soon. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>So there has been money spent so far, and you might already feel like you’re seeing a lot of ads, but actually how much has been spent pales in comparison to what’s going to be spent. There are some estimates that this could be the most expensive ballot measure campaign in state history, so those ads you’re seeing are not going away anytime soon. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On the pro side, the healthcare unions, their allies, have spent, I think, over $30 million by the end of August. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>On the pro side, the healthcare unions, their allies, have spent, I think, over $30 million by the end of August. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On the other side, just the committee created by the billionaires to fight Prop 40 and push those other competing ballot measures, it’s called Building A Better California, they’ve raised $118 million so far. Most of that has not been spent, a little less than the other side has been spent so far, around $21 million. But they have reserved $87 million in TV and radio time leading up to the fall election. And so you can expect that money is all going to be put out there. Obviously these billionaires have a lot of money and that’s just the money that they’ve put in so far.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>On the other side, just the committee created by the billionaires to fight Prop 40 and push those other competing ballot measures, it’s called Building A Better California, they’ve raised $118 million so far. Most of that has not been spent, a little less than the other side has been spent so far, around $21 million. But they have reserved $87 million in TV and radio time leading up to the fall election. And so you can expect that money is all going to be put out there. Obviously these billionaires have a lot of money and that’s just the money that they’ve put in so far.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I understand that this proposition is polling pretty close right now. So it could seem like a good investment if you can move a couple of voters this way or that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I understand that this proposition is polling pretty close right now. So it could seem like a good investment if you can move a couple of voters this way or that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>A hundred percent. I mean, what we’ve seen is that more Californians in these polls tend to favor this than oppose it. However, those numbers are pretty squishy. The kind of common wisdom is that if you’re going into a ballot measure campaign with a well-funded opposition, you want to start around 60% support. This is more in the mid to low fifties in terms of the support and some of the public polling we’ve seen. For both sides, people just get fatigued when they hear too much about any ballot measure and they start getting angry. And that sometimes can lead people to vote no, but if all they’re hearing is a no message, does that flip them the other way? I think there’s a saturation point that the campaigns may have to be concerned about on either side.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>A hundred percent. I mean, what we’ve seen is that more Californians in these polls tend to favor this than oppose it. However, those numbers are pretty squishy. The kind of common wisdom is that if you’re going into a ballot measure campaign with a well-funded opposition, you want to start around 60% support. This is more in the mid to low fifties in terms of the support and some of the public polling we’ve seen. For both sides, people just get fatigued when they hear too much about any ballot measure and they start getting angry. And that sometimes can lead people to vote no, but if all they’re hearing is a no message, does that flip them the other way? I think there’s a saturation point that the campaigns may have to be concerned about on either side.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Marisa Lagos is a political correspondent at KQED and co-host of the podcas, Political Breakdown. Thanks, Marisa.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Marisa Lagos is a political correspondent at KQED and co-host of the podcas, Political Breakdown. Thanks, Marisa.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 40 means you want to levy a one-time tax of 5% on California’s 200 billionaires, with 90% of the revenue going to support health care in the state, and the other 10% going to fund public education and food assistance programs. A no vote means you do not want to levy a one time tax on billionaires. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 40 means you want to levy a one-time tax of 5% on California’s 200 billionaires, with 90% of the revenue going to support health care in the state, and the other 10% going to fund public education and food assistance programs. A no vote means you do not want to levy a one time tax on billionaires. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you wanna hear more about Prop 40, the billionaire tax, check out Marisa’s podcast, Political Breakdown. She has in-depth interviews with Dave Reagan, who authored Prop 40 and Joshua Rauh, a Stanford economist who’s critical of it. You can find both in the Political Break Down podcast feed and we’ll link in our show notes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you wanna hear more about Prop 40, the billionaire tax, check out Marisa’s podcast, Political Breakdown. She has in-depth interviews with Dave Reagan, who authored Prop 40 and Joshua Rauh, a Stanford economist who’s critical of it. You can find both in the Political Break Down podcast feed and we’ll link in our show notes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for our latest episode of PropFest. How we doing? How we feeling? Feeling smarter? Feeling ready to vote? Well, there’s plenty more where that came from. From now until October 9th, the Bay and Bay Curious teams here at KQED are going to be dropping breakdowns of all the statewide propositions on the ballot this year to leave you feeling ready to vote this November. Stay locked in and make sure you’re subscribed to the Bay and be curious so you don’t miss out on the next ones.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for our latest episode of PropFest. How we doing? How we feeling? Feeling smarter? Feeling ready to vote? Well, there’s plenty more where that came from. From now until October 9th, the Bay and Bay Curious teams here at KQED are going to be dropping breakdowns of all the statewide propositions on the ballot this year to leave you feeling ready to vote this November. Stay locked in and make sure you’re subscribed to the Bay and be curious so you don’t miss out on the next ones.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Prop Fest is a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It is produced by: Alan Montecillo, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Gabriella Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Prop Fest is a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It is produced by: Alan Montecillo, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Gabriella Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>You can find audio and transcripts for this series at kqed.org slash propfest.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>You can find audio and transcripts for this series at kqed.org slash propfest.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you value podcasts like this one, please consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. Learn more at donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you value podcasts like this one, please consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. Learn more at donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I’m Erika Cruz-Gabara. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 41, which takes aim at new special taxes, including the billionaire tax we just talked about. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I’m Erika Cruz-Gabara. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 41, which takes aim at new special taxes, including the billionaire tax we just talked about. \u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>If you live in California right now, it’s pretty hard to avoid the ads about Proposition 40, otherwise known as the billionaire tax.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>No on 40 ad clip: \u003c/strong>You have questions about the wealth tax, Prop 40. So here are some facts. Newsom, Becerra, and Hilton are all voting no, calling it sketchy policy that will damage our economy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yes on 40 ad clip: \u003c/strong>We must work together to pass this tax and ensure that our health care services are protected. The billionaire class cannot have it all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Proposition 40 is a one-time 5% tax on the billionaires currently living in California. It’s a hotly debated measure with folks like Bernie Sanders and Governor Gavin Newsom taking sides.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s an interesting one because traditional allies are not lining up the way you might expect on this one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to PropFest. It’s a new week and we’ve got six propositions left to discuss. Our teams at The Bay and Bay Curious are bringing you breakdowns of the statewide propositions on the California ballot, so you can vote with confidence in the November election.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> There are 14 propositions on the ballot this year, and we’ll be taking you through all of them. We’ll be looking at how they got on the ballot, the arguments for and against each one, really talk about how things could play out if they pass, and the money fueling it all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Today we’re discussing Proposition 40, a one-time tax on the wealthiest Californians. It reads like this on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Prop 40 imposes one-time tax on certain taxpayers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Here to walk us through it is KQED political correspondent and co-host of the podcast, Political Breakdown, Marisa Lagos. Welcome, Marissa. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Hey, glad to be here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot to get into on Proposition 40, but before we start on the measure itself, can you give us some context for why this is on our ballot this year?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so this dates back to last year after President Trump took office, he and Republicans in Congress passed what’s known as H.R.1 or the Big Beautiful Bill. That included a reform of the tax code that enacted massive tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans. To pay for those tax cuts, they took billions and billions of dollars out of Medicaid and assistance programs. In California, those cuts will probably be around $30 billion a year that will not be going specifically to Medi-Cal, which is California’s Medicaid program. That’s the health insurance program for low-income Americans. This is basically aimed at replacing that money. Proponents of this tax estimate it would collect around $100 billion over a five-year period. That money would basically go to backfill the cuts from the H.R.1 or the Big Beautiful Bill.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>[00:03:03] And so where does Prop 40 come into all this?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>SEIU-UHW, which is a health care union that represents a lot of rank-and-file health care workers, they saw these cuts coming and decided that they wanted to try to backfill them. And so they came up with this idea to impose a one-time tax on the billionaires in California. It would apply to anyone who has a net worth of over a billion dollars and was living in the state as of January 1 of 2026. So this is a one time tax that would sort of be paid out over a couple of years and the union says it would help essentially avoid massive cuts to the healthcare system, at least for the next few years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And how many billionaires do we have in California? And give us a sense of who these people are.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>There’s an estimated 200 or so people like Larry Page and Sergey Brin who founded Google, Mark Zuckerberg of Meta. Basically the people you hear about the most as being the wealthiest kind of Silicon Valley folks are the ones who are going to be subject to this tax if it passes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And how are they assessing wealth in this scenario? Because I understand this is like, it’s a little bit interesting how they’re planning to get at the wealth of these people because it’s not necessarily the way that sort of everyday people hold their cash.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos \u003c/strong>[00:04:16] Right, so maybe to back up, let’s just talk a little bit about how we pay taxes as sort of average working people, right? If you and I make a salary out of every paycheck, there’s an income tax that is taken by the state. If we have money in the stock market and we sell that stock and we make some capital gains, we would pay based on those capital gains that we realized. And then of course, there are things like property taxes, sales taxes, other things. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The critique of billionaires and really wealthy people is that they don’t make money through the same way that normal people do, right? I think there’s been reporting that Jeff Bezos’ Amazon salary, for example, is like $85,000. So he might actually qualify for some low-income programs based on that. But a lot of the ways that these folks have built their wealth is through stocks and other assets that are being played on Wall Street. And they don’t sort of realize the increase in those numbers unless they were to go and sell them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So how do these billionaires pay for their yachts and their mansions? Well, if you’re that rich, you don’t need an income to essentially go to a bank and say, “hey, look, I’m worth a billion dollars, two billion dollars 100 billion dollars. So you should just give me some loans,” and they get basically loans in really low rates that the rest of us wouldn’t qualify for that help pay for life styles. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This tax would say when you file your taxes as a California resident, you have to check a box to declare whether you’re worth more than a billion dollars. And if you are worth more than a billion dollars, it essentially wants you to tell them how much that overall wealth is. So how much money do you have in your Google stocks if you’re a Sergey brand? How much money have you invested in other companies? You know, if you were Elon Musk, it would be Tesla and SpaceX. And then they want to impose a 5% tax on that overall wealth. So this is a really different kind of novel approach that is not how we have historically taxed people in the United States in general. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For Dave Reagan — who is the head of the union and the guy who basically wrote this proposition — this is like a really simple argument.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dave Regan: \u003c/strong>Just so everyone understands, the billionaires in California pay a tiny percentage of their financial holdings in income tax. They pay two and a half percent. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp> \u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>When you look at sort of what we pay as average Californians and our income tax rates and others, and you compare that to the overall wealth of these folks and how little they pay, that this is just like a simple math problem that this proposition would help fix.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dave Regan: \u003c/strong>Seven years ago in 2019, the aggregate wealth of California billionaires was $700 billion. Today it’s $2.3 trillion. It has more than tripled in the last seven years. Your wages aren’t tripling. My wages aren’t tripling. I don’t know anybody whose salary is tripling.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And how are they Proposing that the money from this one-time tax be used?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>It’s actually pretty vague in the measure. It says that 90% of it would go to healthcare, and then the legislature would have a lot of say over how that money is actually allocated, aimed at helping all those people who would be losing their healthcare or access to it because of the federal cuts. 10% is set aside for other programs, namely food assistance, which was also cut by HR1, as well as schools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>But I understand, like, one critique is that because it is more vague or it’s left to legislators to spend, Californians to some degree, like don’t know exactly what they’re getting with this tax.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think that’s right. The health care system is incredibly expensive and complicated. And I think, you know, because of the way HR1 was written, there’s also a lot of uncertainty in how it’ll actually be carried out. And so I do think that some of that flexibility was built in to account for what we don’t know about how the HR1 cuts would actually play out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And now, I know you’ve spoken to some of the people who are behind this measure, who wrote it. Why are they proposing this as a one-time tax and not something ongoing?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this is a question I really had because it seems like if you’re trying to push back on what are permanent federal cuts, you would want something permanent yourself. And that also, if you are going to go to the trouble of picking this very big fight with the most wealthy people, really in the world, that like, is it worth it for one time? But when I sat down with Dave Reagan, he said that there’s a couple of reasons. One was that he wanted this to be a one-time thing. He didn’t want to give billionaires an incentive to leave California to avoid this. He understands that we are part of a 50 state system and that these are people who can move their wealth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dave Regan: \u003c/strong>We wanted to fix a crisis, solve a problem, and then have enough time to figure out what’s the permanent solution. We wanted, to the extent possible, to take the issue off the table, that the billionaires threatening everybody that they’re gonna leave, there is no incentive for them to leave under our proposal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>The other thing that he and proponents say is that they don’t think these will be permanent cuts, that they want to get Democrats back in power in Congress and win the White House in 2028, and that they wanna see those cuts restored at the federal level, that that is the better way to be funding them. And so they felt that this should just be a one-time tax in order to kind of bridge that gap that they hope is a gap and not a permanent reduction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ve got to take a quick break, but when we return, more on Proposition 40, including what those opposing it are saying. Stay with us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back with Prop Fest, talking proposition 40. Marisa, other than the union that put this on the ballot, who else is supporting Prop 40 and why? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>So in addition to SEIU-UHW, you do have some of the biggest progressive national voices supporting this. Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. In the Bay Area, U.S. Representative Ro Khanna is behind it. The California Federation of Labor, which represents, you know, thousands of unions, did vote to endorse it. The California Democratic Party did vote to endorse Prop 40, but it is largely being driven by SEIU-UHW. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right, and then who is against it? And what are they arguing?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa:\u003c/strong> Everybody else in California. So at the top of the list are the billionaires. Sergey Brin has really taken the lead on this. He’s donated the most money and helped create some organizations that are really funneling money to oppose Prop 40 and push two other ballot measures that they put on the ballot in order to try to undercut Prop 40. But in addition to the billionaires themselves, you do have a really interesting list of folks up to Governor Gavin Newsom who says he opposes this tax. Most of the more high-profile Democrats in California, so in addition to Newsom, you have Xavier Becerra, the likely next governor. You have a lot of people in the legislature and others who are opposing it. And then you have some kind of surprising names. You have the California Teachers Association. You have Planned Parenthood of California. You have some other unions, firefighters and police officers and others that traditionally would probably be on the side of these taxes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then, of course, groups you would expect. The Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association, the California Republican Party, conservative groups who generally just oppose raising taxes in any way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s such an eclectic group. What are their arguments against this measure?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so we’ve really seen a lot of frustration by the governor on down at the fact that this was pushed through. And I think what they say is that it is a poorly designed one-time measure that potentially has the effect of hurting the progressive movement long-term. So their arguments include the idea that it’s gonna be hard to enforce, that this is like only a one-time thing for this ongoing problem, that it could actually essentially hurt California’s ability to stay competitive and to really, you know, be an innovator in the tech space, especially as we see this AI boom happening, that this will sort of scare people off. Newsom himself is trying to thread this needle where he says that he does support a national wealth tax. But that it’s just not the right way to do it at the state level. That this should be a national attack so that you wouldn’t have the ability to sort of avoid it by moving somewhere else.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>One concern that I keep reading about this, Prop 40, is how it could impact California in the future. Can you explain?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>One of the bigger arguments against it, too, is this idea that it could do longer-term damage to the state budget. If, indeed, you buy the argument that this will drive billionaires out of California or other wealthy people, even if it’s not to avoid this one-time tax, but that it’s just creating an environment that is less, you know, that is hostile to developing businesses, the concern is that if you have a lot of wealthy people flee the state, that would result in a huge hit to the state’s operating budget every single year. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I spoke to Joshua Rauh. He’s a Stanford University Finance Professor, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and he is very critical of Prop 40.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joshua Rauh: \u003c/strong>The costs, in this case, with the billionaire tax are that we’re driving billionaires out of the state and we’re also discouraging new entrepreneurs from growing their businesses here. And so that’s really the way to see it. The benefits would potentially be revenue, but we calculate that actually the state’s gonna lose $25 billion from doing this tax.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Mmm so essentially the concern is this wealth tax could drive rich people out of the state, and so California would lose out on the yearly taxes they do pay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> We do have a very progressive tax system here. The highest earners do pay the most into the state budget. And if that pool of folks shrinks, it could have an impact on overall spending every year, which of course goes not just to healthcare, but to. Police and fire and education and all these other areas. So I think part of what Newsom and a lot of the people on his side of things on the Democratic side who oppose this are worried about is that in the short term, this would help shore up the healthcare system, but in the long term, it would really undercut our overall ability to support all those programs that people depend on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another issue Rauh takes with Prop 40 is with how it may force billionaires to make more of their money liquid.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Joshua Rauh: \u003c/strong> If someone has a business that has a value of $1 billion, they’re going to be subject to this tax. They’re going to have to pay $50 million because of this tax, and they may not have that money liquid. That means that they’re gonna have to actually sell off some of this company and you know that that actually removes capital from growing companies. It’s bad for the companies and bad for economy. It’s bad to the labor force.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Now I understand that this would be the first of its kind tax if this is passed in the United States, but similar stuff has been tried elsewhere.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>There was an attempt a few decades ago to levy wealth taxes in some European countries. Most of those, I believe, were repealed. They were much broader. They were not just aimed at billionaires. Billionaires didn’t actually exist in the 90s, let’s not forget. So I think one of what you’ll hear from critics is that you should look at a place like France, which abolished its tax in 2018. After they did see sort of an exodus of a lot of businesses and business people who brought in, you know, a lot money. The flip side to that is that, you know, this is a one-time tax. It is in a state that is the center of these industries.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Now we’re gonna get into props 41 and 42 in detail in some future episodes, but because they are related to prop 40, can you briefly explain how they conflict?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, both Prop 41 and 42 have various other provisions, but they include language that says if they get more votes than Proposition 40, they supersede it. And in both cases, they would sort of undercut key provisions in Prop 40, and essentially make it impossible for the state to enforce the billionaire tax. So if all three pass, but 40 gets fewer votes, it essentially is like it didn’t pass in a lot of ways.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And like we mentioned at the top of this episode, there have been a lot of ads about this measure, which means money. How is campaign spending shaking out on this?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>So there has been money spent so far, and you might already feel like you’re seeing a lot of ads, but actually how much has been spent pales in comparison to what’s going to be spent. There are some estimates that this could be the most expensive ballot measure campaign in state history, so those ads you’re seeing are not going away anytime soon. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On the pro side, the healthcare unions, their allies, have spent, I think, over $30 million by the end of August. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On the other side, just the committee created by the billionaires to fight Prop 40 and push those other competing ballot measures, it’s called Building A Better California, they’ve raised $118 million so far. Most of that has not been spent, a little less than the other side has been spent so far, around $21 million. But they have reserved $87 million in TV and radio time leading up to the fall election. And so you can expect that money is all going to be put out there. Obviously these billionaires have a lot of money and that’s just the money that they’ve put in so far.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I understand that this proposition is polling pretty close right now. So it could seem like a good investment if you can move a couple of voters this way or that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>A hundred percent. I mean, what we’ve seen is that more Californians in these polls tend to favor this than oppose it. However, those numbers are pretty squishy. The kind of common wisdom is that if you’re going into a ballot measure campaign with a well-funded opposition, you want to start around 60% support. This is more in the mid to low fifties in terms of the support and some of the public polling we’ve seen. For both sides, people just get fatigued when they hear too much about any ballot measure and they start getting angry. And that sometimes can lead people to vote no, but if all they’re hearing is a no message, does that flip them the other way? I think there’s a saturation point that the campaigns may have to be concerned about on either side.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Marisa Lagos is a political correspondent at KQED and co-host of the podcas, Political Breakdown. Thanks, Marisa.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 40 means you want to levy a one-time tax of 5% on California’s 200 billionaires, with 90% of the revenue going to support health care in the state, and the other 10% going to fund public education and food assistance programs. A no vote means you do not want to levy a one time tax on billionaires. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you wanna hear more about Prop 40, the billionaire tax, check out Marisa’s podcast, Political Breakdown. She has in-depth interviews with Dave Reagan, who authored Prop 40 and Joshua Rauh, a Stanford economist who’s critical of it. You can find both in the Political Break Down podcast feed and we’ll link in our show notes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for our latest episode of PropFest. How we doing? How we feeling? Feeling smarter? Feeling ready to vote? Well, there’s plenty more where that came from. From now until October 9th, the Bay and Bay Curious teams here at KQED are going to be dropping breakdowns of all the statewide propositions on the ballot this year to leave you feeling ready to vote this November. Stay locked in and make sure you’re subscribed to the Bay and be curious so you don’t miss out on the next ones.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Prop Fest is a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It is produced by: Alan Montecillo, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Gabriella Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>You can find audio and transcripts for this series at kqed.org slash propfest.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you value podcasts like this one, please consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. Learn more at donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Support for the Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I’m Erika Cruz-Gabara. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 41, which takes aim at new special taxes, including the billionaire tax we just talked about. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll see you then!\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Prop 39: Require Identification When Californians Cast A Ballot",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Right now, when you cast a ballot in California, you don’t need to show identification. Prop 39 seeks to change that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>This is one of the most hotly contested issues on this year’s ballot, in part because President Donald Trump has also been talking about new voter ID laws.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Donald Trump:\u003c/strong> It’s very simple, all voters must show voter ID.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Is this a common sense way to make voting more secure or an attempt to suppress the vote? That’s for you to decide.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> This is how Proposition 39 reads on your ballot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover:\u003c/strong> Proposition 39 prohibits citizens from voting unless they present government issued identification. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> We are back with another edition of PropFest, where our teams break down each statewide proposition on the California ballot. Way to hang in there this week. We talked about a lot of ballot measures.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But there’s one last one to talk about this week before we head into the weekend. And it’s one of the most contentious. Here to help us understand Prop 39 is reporter Izzy Bloom from KQED’s politics desk. Welcome, Izzy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> Hi.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Proposition 39 is an amendment to the state constitution about how we vote in the state. Before we dive into specifics, who put us on the ballot and why now? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> Nationally, we’ve seen a lot of conversations in recent years about election integrity, especially from President Donald Trump and his allies, who are pushing voter ID requirements nationally and attempting to restrict mail-in voting. So this was put on the ballot by Republican lawmakers in California who want to increase voter confidence in elections by adding new ID requirements. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Break down for us what exactly Prop 39 would do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> So the measure would amend the state constitution to require Californians present a government-issued ID when voting in person. So that would be something like a driver’s license or a social security number. Or if they’re voting by mail, they would need to write the last four digits of an ID number on their ballot envelope. Right now, California only requires ID or social security numbers when registering to vote. It would also require the Secretary of State and county election officials to verify voters’ citizenship and report every year what percentage of their voter rolls they’ve verified. And in odd years, the state auditor would have to audit counties on how well they’re complying with the law and recommend changes. Lastly, the initiative says that any voter can request a new free state-issued ID at no cost, but when you designate at registration which ID you’re using, you have to stick to that number every time you vote or else your ballot could be invalidated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Why do proponents say this measure is necessary? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Backers of the measure are really trying to distance themselves from accusations that this is an extension of Trump’s agenda, given how blue the state votes. Their main argument is this is a common sense reform that both Republicans and Democrats are in favor of. They say nearly half the signatures they gathered to qualify for the ballot were from Democrats and Independents. Also one of the bill’s authors, Assemblymember Carl DeMaio, says whether there is or isn’t fraud going on. It’s undeniable that voter confidence in elections is incredibly low, and this is just an easy way to give people greater trust in the election system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Assemblymember Carl DeMaio:\u003c/strong> Because we’ve seen a dramatic drop in public trust and confidence in our elections. We’ve also seen very destructive and dishonest conspiracy theories on both sides. And so what we need to do is make sure that we always conduct our elections with the best safeguards and the highest integrity. And voters have said they want voter ID. It’s common sense.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Another argument that Senator Tony Strickland, who is also one of the bill’s authors, made is that 36 other states and many other countries already have voter ID requirements.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Senator Tony Strickland:\u003c/strong> ID is part of your everyday life. I had to use my idea a few times just today. You need an ID to get on a plane. You need ID to get prescription medication. You use the ID to open up a bank account. So there’s no reason why we shouldn’t require ID to actually go out and vote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> And Strickland says voter participation has actually increased in states like Georgia after introducing voter ID. But opponents say motivation is really hard to measure, and it’s just as likely due to voter mobilization efforts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have a problem with voter fraud in California? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Most studies say the rates of voter fraud are minuscule. But there’s certainly a narrative out there that it’s too easy to take advantage of the system. This year, I think a lot of concerns about fraud came from California’s slow vote count. And one of the talking points you’ll hear a lot from Republicans is how there was a dog registered to vote in Orange County. Democrats respond to that saying, actually this shows the system is working because the dog’s owner, who’s a registered Republican, was caught and prosecuted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll pause the conversation here for a moment. More on Prop 39 when we return. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back talking about Proposition 39 with KQED’s Izzy Bloom. Izzy, what are the current rules around citizenship and voting in California?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> Right now, when you register to vote in California, you have to prove that you’re legally allowed to vote by showing ID or a social security number, and it’s already illegal for non-citizens to vote in California. Jenny Farrell is the executive director for the League of Women Voters in California and she says, you know, California already has voter ID laws.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenny Farrell: \u003c/strong>Voters sign the roster and impersonating another voter is a crime. And then for mail ballots, every ballot goes through a signature verification against the voter’s registration record before it is counted with a process to cure mismatches. No matter how you vote, citizenship is already attested to under penalty of perjure when someone registers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> For mail-in ballots, they say it’s not very different to sign an envelope and verify that signature versus writing down a number and verifying that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Tell me more about that citizenship verification process. What happens now with voter rolls and how would this be different?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>It’s already part of state law that voter roles are maintained and updated. So for example, if someone goes to prison or dies and can no longer vote, government agencies send those names to the Secretary of State and the roles are updated. When it comes to citizenship status, that’s checked when a person registers to vote currently, and it’s considered perjury for a non-citizen to lie and sign up to vote anyway. So this measure is really aiming to make everything stricter. It’s not really clear what best efforts to verify citizenship means. That’s probably something the state legislature would have to determine if this passes. But in general, the measure is adding more steps to ensure you are who you say you are when you go to vote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Okay, we’ve heard from supporters on this, who is opposing this prop and what are their arguments?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> As you can imagine, this has become a pretty partisan fight. The California Democratic Party and gubernatorial candidate Javier Becerra are against it. And then there’s also groups including the ACLU of Northern California, the League of Women Voters, California Common Cause also against the measure. And they argue the system isn’t broken. There’s very little, if any, election fraud right now. And all this will do is make it harder to vote. Here’s Farrell again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenny Farrell: \u003c/strong>Prop 39 would actually affect every California voter, but we know that additional ID requirements don’t fall equally on everyone. There are large gaps in terms of who possesses current valid ID with, you know, the current name and address. Voters in Black, Latino, Asian American, and Pacific Islander communities are less likely to have that current valid ID. These ID laws also present particular challenges for young voters, low-income voters, voters with disabilities, and folks who have changed their names, including women who have changed their name due to marriage and transgender folks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Also, Farrell says it creates new identity theft problems because it requires voters write the last four digits of a government-issued ID on the outside of their mail-in envelope, and that already has your name and address on it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenny Farrell: \u003c/strong>The measure itself does not require a secrecy flap or some other covering over that number. And then election officials retain those envelopes for as long as 22 months.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> The initiative seems clear on its face, but there are a lot of details that still need to be hashed out if it passes. For instance, it’s unclear what kinds of government-issued ID would qualify, like tribal ID, student ID, public housing ID, gun registration ID, and whichever forms of ID are allowed could privilege certain racial, age, and socioeconomic groups. The opposition also points out that this could cost the state a bunch of money. The Legislative Analyst’s office estimated tens of millions to the low hundreds of millions of dollars to issue all those free state IDs and additional workload for state and county election officials and the state auditor. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What does campaign spending look like for this measure? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>As of early September, the yes on Prop 39 side has far outspent the no side to tune of $15 million. The spending here isn’t nearly as big as we’re seeing in some of the other contentious measures, like the billionaire tax, but polling does show it’s underwater. The most recent Berkeley IGS poll from September shows 52% of likely voters plan to vote no versus 39% planning to vote yes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Izzy Bloom, a reporter with KQED’s Politics Desk. Thanks so much, Izzy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 39 would require people to show a government-issued ID when voting in person or provide the last four digits of a government issued ID designated during voter registration for mail-in voting. It would also require election officials to maintain accurate voter registration lists and to try to verify citizenship of voters using government data. And it would also require the state auditor to audit government compliance with these requirements. A vote no on Prop 39 would keep things as they are now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/strong>: That’s it for our episode on Proposition 39. We’ll be back next week with explainers on the remaining six propositions on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is produced by Erika Cruz Guevarra, Alan Monticello, Gabriella Glick, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. I’m Olivia Allen-Price and I’m Ericka Cruz Guavarra. Have a lovely weekend.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Right now, when you cast a ballot in California, you don’t need to show identification. Prop 39 seeks to change that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Right now, when you cast a ballot in California, you don’t need to show identification. Prop 39 seeks to change that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>This is one of the most hotly contested issues on this year’s ballot, in part because President Donald Trump has also been talking about new voter ID laws.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>This is one of the most hotly contested issues on this year’s ballot, in part because President Donald Trump has also been talking about new voter ID laws.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Donald Trump:\u003c/strong> It’s very simple, all voters must show voter ID.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Donald Trump:\u003c/strong> It’s very simple, all voters must show voter ID.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Is this a common sense way to make voting more secure or an attempt to suppress the vote? That’s for you to decide.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Is this a common sense way to make voting more secure or an attempt to suppress the vote? That’s for you to decide.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> This is how Proposition 39 reads on your ballot. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> This is how Proposition 39 reads on your ballot. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover:\u003c/strong> Proposition 39 prohibits citizens from voting unless they present government issued identification. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover:\u003c/strong> Proposition 39 prohibits citizens from voting unless they present government issued identification. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> We are back with another edition of PropFest, where our teams break down each statewide proposition on the California ballot. Way to hang in there this week. We talked about a lot of ballot measures.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> We are back with another edition of PropFest, where our teams break down each statewide proposition on the California ballot. Way to hang in there this week. We talked about a lot of ballot measures.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But there’s one last one to talk about this week before we head into the weekend. And it’s one of the most contentious. Here to help us understand Prop 39 is reporter Izzy Bloom from KQED’s politics desk. Welcome, Izzy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But there’s one last one to talk about this week before we head into the weekend. And it’s one of the most contentious. Here to help us understand Prop 39 is reporter Izzy Bloom from KQED’s politics desk. Welcome, Izzy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> Hi.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> Hi.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Proposition 39 is an amendment to the state constitution about how we vote in the state. Before we dive into specifics, who put us on the ballot and why now? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Proposition 39 is an amendment to the state constitution about how we vote in the state. Before we dive into specifics, who put us on the ballot and why now? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> Nationally, we’ve seen a lot of conversations in recent years about election integrity, especially from President Donald Trump and his allies, who are pushing voter ID requirements nationally and attempting to restrict mail-in voting. So this was put on the ballot by Republican lawmakers in California who want to increase voter confidence in elections by adding new ID requirements. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> Nationally, we’ve seen a lot of conversations in recent years about election integrity, especially from President Donald Trump and his allies, who are pushing voter ID requirements nationally and attempting to restrict mail-in voting. So this was put on the ballot by Republican lawmakers in California who want to increase voter confidence in elections by adding new ID requirements. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Break down for us what exactly Prop 39 would do. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Break down for us what exactly Prop 39 would do. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> So the measure would amend the state constitution to require Californians present a government-issued ID when voting in person. So that would be something like a driver’s license or a social security number. Or if they’re voting by mail, they would need to write the last four digits of an ID number on their ballot envelope. Right now, California only requires ID or social security numbers when registering to vote. It would also require the Secretary of State and county election officials to verify voters’ citizenship and report every year what percentage of their voter rolls they’ve verified. And in odd years, the state auditor would have to audit counties on how well they’re complying with the law and recommend changes. Lastly, the initiative says that any voter can request a new free state-issued ID at no cost, but when you designate at registration which ID you’re using, you have to stick to that number every time you vote or else your ballot could be invalidated.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> So the measure would amend the state constitution to require Californians present a government-issued ID when voting in person. So that would be something like a driver’s license or a social security number. Or if they’re voting by mail, they would need to write the last four digits of an ID number on their ballot envelope. Right now, California only requires ID or social security numbers when registering to vote. It would also require the Secretary of State and county election officials to verify voters’ citizenship and report every year what percentage of their voter rolls they’ve verified. And in odd years, the state auditor would have to audit counties on how well they’re complying with the law and recommend changes. Lastly, the initiative says that any voter can request a new free state-issued ID at no cost, but when you designate at registration which ID you’re using, you have to stick to that number every time you vote or else your ballot could be invalidated.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Why do proponents say this measure is necessary? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Backers of the measure are really trying to distance themselves from accusations that this is an extension of Trump’s agenda, given how blue the state votes. Their main argument is this is a common sense reform that both Republicans and Democrats are in favor of. They say nearly half the signatures they gathered to qualify for the ballot were from Democrats and Independents. Also one of the bill’s authors, Assemblymember Carl DeMaio, says whether there is or isn’t fraud going on. It’s undeniable that voter confidence in elections is incredibly low, and this is just an easy way to give people greater trust in the election system.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Backers of the measure are really trying to distance themselves from accusations that this is an extension of Trump’s agenda, given how blue the state votes. Their main argument is this is a common sense reform that both Republicans and Democrats are in favor of. They say nearly half the signatures they gathered to qualify for the ballot were from Democrats and Independents. Also one of the bill’s authors, Assemblymember Carl DeMaio, says whether there is or isn’t fraud going on. It’s undeniable that voter confidence in elections is incredibly low, and this is just an easy way to give people greater trust in the election system.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Assemblymember Carl DeMaio:\u003c/strong> Because we’ve seen a dramatic drop in public trust and confidence in our elections. We’ve also seen very destructive and dishonest conspiracy theories on both sides. And so what we need to do is make sure that we always conduct our elections with the best safeguards and the highest integrity. And voters have said they want voter ID. It’s common sense.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Assemblymember Carl DeMaio:\u003c/strong> Because we’ve seen a dramatic drop in public trust and confidence in our elections. We’ve also seen very destructive and dishonest conspiracy theories on both sides. And so what we need to do is make sure that we always conduct our elections with the best safeguards and the highest integrity. And voters have said they want voter ID. It’s common sense.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Another argument that Senator Tony Strickland, who is also one of the bill’s authors, made is that 36 other states and many other countries already have voter ID requirements.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Another argument that Senator Tony Strickland, who is also one of the bill’s authors, made is that 36 other states and many other countries already have voter ID requirements.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Senator Tony Strickland:\u003c/strong> ID is part of your everyday life. I had to use my idea a few times just today. You need an ID to get on a plane. You need ID to get prescription medication. You use the ID to open up a bank account. So there’s no reason why we shouldn’t require ID to actually go out and vote.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Senator Tony Strickland:\u003c/strong> ID is part of your everyday life. I had to use my idea a few times just today. You need an ID to get on a plane. You need ID to get prescription medication. You use the ID to open up a bank account. So there’s no reason why we shouldn’t require ID to actually go out and vote.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> And Strickland says voter participation has actually increased in states like Georgia after introducing voter ID. But opponents say motivation is really hard to measure, and it’s just as likely due to voter mobilization efforts. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> And Strickland says voter participation has actually increased in states like Georgia after introducing voter ID. But opponents say motivation is really hard to measure, and it’s just as likely due to voter mobilization efforts. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have a problem with voter fraud in California? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have a problem with voter fraud in California? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Most studies say the rates of voter fraud are minuscule. But there’s certainly a narrative out there that it’s too easy to take advantage of the system. This year, I think a lot of concerns about fraud came from California’s slow vote count. And one of the talking points you’ll hear a lot from Republicans is how there was a dog registered to vote in Orange County. Democrats respond to that saying, actually this shows the system is working because the dog’s owner, who’s a registered Republican, was caught and prosecuted.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Most studies say the rates of voter fraud are minuscule. But there’s certainly a narrative out there that it’s too easy to take advantage of the system. This year, I think a lot of concerns about fraud came from California’s slow vote count. And one of the talking points you’ll hear a lot from Republicans is how there was a dog registered to vote in Orange County. Democrats respond to that saying, actually this shows the system is working because the dog’s owner, who’s a registered Republican, was caught and prosecuted.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll pause the conversation here for a moment. More on Prop 39 when we return. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll pause the conversation here for a moment. More on Prop 39 when we return. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back talking about Proposition 39 with KQED’s Izzy Bloom. Izzy, what are the current rules around citizenship and voting in California?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back talking about Proposition 39 with KQED’s Izzy Bloom. Izzy, what are the current rules around citizenship and voting in California?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> Right now, when you register to vote in California, you have to prove that you’re legally allowed to vote by showing ID or a social security number, and it’s already illegal for non-citizens to vote in California. Jenny Farrell is the executive director for the League of Women Voters in California and she says, you know, California already has voter ID laws.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> Right now, when you register to vote in California, you have to prove that you’re legally allowed to vote by showing ID or a social security number, and it’s already illegal for non-citizens to vote in California. Jenny Farrell is the executive director for the League of Women Voters in California and she says, you know, California already has voter ID laws.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenny Farrell: \u003c/strong>Voters sign the roster and impersonating another voter is a crime. And then for mail ballots, every ballot goes through a signature verification against the voter’s registration record before it is counted with a process to cure mismatches. No matter how you vote, citizenship is already attested to under penalty of perjure when someone registers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenny Farrell: \u003c/strong>Voters sign the roster and impersonating another voter is a crime. And then for mail ballots, every ballot goes through a signature verification against the voter’s registration record before it is counted with a process to cure mismatches. No matter how you vote, citizenship is already attested to under penalty of perjure when someone registers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> For mail-in ballots, they say it’s not very different to sign an envelope and verify that signature versus writing down a number and verifying that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> For mail-in ballots, they say it’s not very different to sign an envelope and verify that signature versus writing down a number and verifying that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Tell me more about that citizenship verification process. What happens now with voter rolls and how would this be different?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Tell me more about that citizenship verification process. What happens now with voter rolls and how would this be different?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>It’s already part of state law that voter roles are maintained and updated. So for example, if someone goes to prison or dies and can no longer vote, government agencies send those names to the Secretary of State and the roles are updated. When it comes to citizenship status, that’s checked when a person registers to vote currently, and it’s considered perjury for a non-citizen to lie and sign up to vote anyway. So this measure is really aiming to make everything stricter. It’s not really clear what best efforts to verify citizenship means. That’s probably something the state legislature would have to determine if this passes. But in general, the measure is adding more steps to ensure you are who you say you are when you go to vote.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>It’s already part of state law that voter roles are maintained and updated. So for example, if someone goes to prison or dies and can no longer vote, government agencies send those names to the Secretary of State and the roles are updated. When it comes to citizenship status, that’s checked when a person registers to vote currently, and it’s considered perjury for a non-citizen to lie and sign up to vote anyway. So this measure is really aiming to make everything stricter. It’s not really clear what best efforts to verify citizenship means. That’s probably something the state legislature would have to determine if this passes. But in general, the measure is adding more steps to ensure you are who you say you are when you go to vote.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Okay, we’ve heard from supporters on this, who is opposing this prop and what are their arguments?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Okay, we’ve heard from supporters on this, who is opposing this prop and what are their arguments?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> As you can imagine, this has become a pretty partisan fight. The California Democratic Party and gubernatorial candidate Javier Becerra are against it. And then there’s also groups including the ACLU of Northern California, the League of Women Voters, California Common Cause also against the measure. And they argue the system isn’t broken. There’s very little, if any, election fraud right now. And all this will do is make it harder to vote. Here’s Farrell again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> As you can imagine, this has become a pretty partisan fight. The California Democratic Party and gubernatorial candidate Javier Becerra are against it. And then there’s also groups including the ACLU of Northern California, the League of Women Voters, California Common Cause also against the measure. And they argue the system isn’t broken. There’s very little, if any, election fraud right now. And all this will do is make it harder to vote. Here’s Farrell again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenny Farrell: \u003c/strong>Prop 39 would actually affect every California voter, but we know that additional ID requirements don’t fall equally on everyone. There are large gaps in terms of who possesses current valid ID with, you know, the current name and address. Voters in Black, Latino, Asian American, and Pacific Islander communities are less likely to have that current valid ID. These ID laws also present particular challenges for young voters, low-income voters, voters with disabilities, and folks who have changed their names, including women who have changed their name due to marriage and transgender folks.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenny Farrell: \u003c/strong>Prop 39 would actually affect every California voter, but we know that additional ID requirements don’t fall equally on everyone. There are large gaps in terms of who possesses current valid ID with, you know, the current name and address. Voters in Black, Latino, Asian American, and Pacific Islander communities are less likely to have that current valid ID. These ID laws also present particular challenges for young voters, low-income voters, voters with disabilities, and folks who have changed their names, including women who have changed their name due to marriage and transgender folks.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Also, Farrell says it creates new identity theft problems because it requires voters write the last four digits of a government-issued ID on the outside of their mail-in envelope, and that already has your name and address on it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenny Farrell: \u003c/strong>The measure itself does not require a secrecy flap or some other covering over that number. And then election officials retain those envelopes for as long as 22 months.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> The initiative seems clear on its face, but there are a lot of details that still need to be hashed out if it passes. For instance, it’s unclear what kinds of government-issued ID would qualify, like tribal ID, student ID, public housing ID, gun registration ID, and whichever forms of ID are allowed could privilege certain racial, age, and socioeconomic groups. The opposition also points out that this could cost the state a bunch of money. The Legislative Analyst’s office estimated tens of millions to the low hundreds of millions of dollars to issue all those free state IDs and additional workload for state and county election officials and the state auditor. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> The initiative seems clear on its face, but there are a lot of details that still need to be hashed out if it passes. For instance, it’s unclear what kinds of government-issued ID would qualify, like tribal ID, student ID, public housing ID, gun registration ID, and whichever forms of ID are allowed could privilege certain racial, age, and socioeconomic groups. The opposition also points out that this could cost the state a bunch of money. The Legislative Analyst’s office estimated tens of millions to the low hundreds of millions of dollars to issue all those free state IDs and additional workload for state and county election officials and the state auditor. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What does campaign spending look like for this measure? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>As of early September, the yes on Prop 39 side has far outspent the no side to tune of $15 million. The spending here isn’t nearly as big as we’re seeing in some of the other contentious measures, like the billionaire tax, but polling does show it’s underwater. The most recent Berkeley IGS poll from September shows 52% of likely voters plan to vote no versus 39% planning to vote yes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>As of early September, the yes on Prop 39 side has far outspent the no side to tune of $15 million. The spending here isn’t nearly as big as we’re seeing in some of the other contentious measures, like the billionaire tax, but polling does show it’s underwater. The most recent Berkeley IGS poll from September shows 52% of likely voters plan to vote no versus 39% planning to vote yes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Izzy Bloom, a reporter with KQED’s Politics Desk. Thanks so much, Izzy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Izzy Bloom, a reporter with KQED’s Politics Desk. Thanks so much, Izzy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 39 would require people to show a government-issued ID when voting in person or provide the last four digits of a government issued ID designated during voter registration for mail-in voting. It would also require election officials to maintain accurate voter registration lists and to try to verify citizenship of voters using government data. And it would also require the state auditor to audit government compliance with these requirements. A vote no on Prop 39 would keep things as they are now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 39 would require people to show a government-issued ID when voting in person or provide the last four digits of a government issued ID designated during voter registration for mail-in voting. It would also require election officials to maintain accurate voter registration lists and to try to verify citizenship of voters using government data. And it would also require the state auditor to audit government compliance with these requirements. A vote no on Prop 39 would keep things as they are now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/strong>: That’s it for our episode on Proposition 39. We’ll be back next week with explainers on the remaining six propositions on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/strong>: That’s it for our episode on Proposition 39. We’ll be back next week with explainers on the remaining six propositions on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is produced by Erika Cruz Guevarra, Alan Monticello, Gabriella Glick, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is produced by Erika Cruz Guevarra, Alan Monticello, Gabriella Glick, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. I’m Olivia Allen-Price and I’m Ericka Cruz Guavarra. Have a lovely weekend.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Right now, when you cast a ballot in California, you don’t need to show identification. Prop 39 seeks to change that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>This is one of the most hotly contested issues on this year’s ballot, in part because President Donald Trump has also been talking about new voter ID laws.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Donald Trump:\u003c/strong> It’s very simple, all voters must show voter ID.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Is this a common sense way to make voting more secure or an attempt to suppress the vote? That’s for you to decide.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> This is how Proposition 39 reads on your ballot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover:\u003c/strong> Proposition 39 prohibits citizens from voting unless they present government issued identification. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> We are back with another edition of PropFest, where our teams break down each statewide proposition on the California ballot. Way to hang in there this week. We talked about a lot of ballot measures.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But there’s one last one to talk about this week before we head into the weekend. And it’s one of the most contentious. Here to help us understand Prop 39 is reporter Izzy Bloom from KQED’s politics desk. Welcome, Izzy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> Hi.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Proposition 39 is an amendment to the state constitution about how we vote in the state. Before we dive into specifics, who put us on the ballot and why now? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> Nationally, we’ve seen a lot of conversations in recent years about election integrity, especially from President Donald Trump and his allies, who are pushing voter ID requirements nationally and attempting to restrict mail-in voting. So this was put on the ballot by Republican lawmakers in California who want to increase voter confidence in elections by adding new ID requirements. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Break down for us what exactly Prop 39 would do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> So the measure would amend the state constitution to require Californians present a government-issued ID when voting in person. So that would be something like a driver’s license or a social security number. Or if they’re voting by mail, they would need to write the last four digits of an ID number on their ballot envelope. Right now, California only requires ID or social security numbers when registering to vote. It would also require the Secretary of State and county election officials to verify voters’ citizenship and report every year what percentage of their voter rolls they’ve verified. And in odd years, the state auditor would have to audit counties on how well they’re complying with the law and recommend changes. Lastly, the initiative says that any voter can request a new free state-issued ID at no cost, but when you designate at registration which ID you’re using, you have to stick to that number every time you vote or else your ballot could be invalidated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Why do proponents say this measure is necessary? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Backers of the measure are really trying to distance themselves from accusations that this is an extension of Trump’s agenda, given how blue the state votes. Their main argument is this is a common sense reform that both Republicans and Democrats are in favor of. They say nearly half the signatures they gathered to qualify for the ballot were from Democrats and Independents. Also one of the bill’s authors, Assemblymember Carl DeMaio, says whether there is or isn’t fraud going on. It’s undeniable that voter confidence in elections is incredibly low, and this is just an easy way to give people greater trust in the election system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Assemblymember Carl DeMaio:\u003c/strong> Because we’ve seen a dramatic drop in public trust and confidence in our elections. We’ve also seen very destructive and dishonest conspiracy theories on both sides. And so what we need to do is make sure that we always conduct our elections with the best safeguards and the highest integrity. And voters have said they want voter ID. It’s common sense.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Another argument that Senator Tony Strickland, who is also one of the bill’s authors, made is that 36 other states and many other countries already have voter ID requirements.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Senator Tony Strickland:\u003c/strong> ID is part of your everyday life. I had to use my idea a few times just today. You need an ID to get on a plane. You need ID to get prescription medication. You use the ID to open up a bank account. So there’s no reason why we shouldn’t require ID to actually go out and vote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> And Strickland says voter participation has actually increased in states like Georgia after introducing voter ID. But opponents say motivation is really hard to measure, and it’s just as likely due to voter mobilization efforts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have a problem with voter fraud in California? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Most studies say the rates of voter fraud are minuscule. But there’s certainly a narrative out there that it’s too easy to take advantage of the system. This year, I think a lot of concerns about fraud came from California’s slow vote count. And one of the talking points you’ll hear a lot from Republicans is how there was a dog registered to vote in Orange County. Democrats respond to that saying, actually this shows the system is working because the dog’s owner, who’s a registered Republican, was caught and prosecuted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll pause the conversation here for a moment. More on Prop 39 when we return. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back talking about Proposition 39 with KQED’s Izzy Bloom. Izzy, what are the current rules around citizenship and voting in California?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> Right now, when you register to vote in California, you have to prove that you’re legally allowed to vote by showing ID or a social security number, and it’s already illegal for non-citizens to vote in California. Jenny Farrell is the executive director for the League of Women Voters in California and she says, you know, California already has voter ID laws.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenny Farrell: \u003c/strong>Voters sign the roster and impersonating another voter is a crime. And then for mail ballots, every ballot goes through a signature verification against the voter’s registration record before it is counted with a process to cure mismatches. No matter how you vote, citizenship is already attested to under penalty of perjure when someone registers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> For mail-in ballots, they say it’s not very different to sign an envelope and verify that signature versus writing down a number and verifying that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Tell me more about that citizenship verification process. What happens now with voter rolls and how would this be different?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>It’s already part of state law that voter roles are maintained and updated. So for example, if someone goes to prison or dies and can no longer vote, government agencies send those names to the Secretary of State and the roles are updated. When it comes to citizenship status, that’s checked when a person registers to vote currently, and it’s considered perjury for a non-citizen to lie and sign up to vote anyway. So this measure is really aiming to make everything stricter. It’s not really clear what best efforts to verify citizenship means. That’s probably something the state legislature would have to determine if this passes. But in general, the measure is adding more steps to ensure you are who you say you are when you go to vote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Okay, we’ve heard from supporters on this, who is opposing this prop and what are their arguments?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> As you can imagine, this has become a pretty partisan fight. The California Democratic Party and gubernatorial candidate Javier Becerra are against it. And then there’s also groups including the ACLU of Northern California, the League of Women Voters, California Common Cause also against the measure. And they argue the system isn’t broken. There’s very little, if any, election fraud right now. And all this will do is make it harder to vote. Here’s Farrell again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenny Farrell: \u003c/strong>Prop 39 would actually affect every California voter, but we know that additional ID requirements don’t fall equally on everyone. There are large gaps in terms of who possesses current valid ID with, you know, the current name and address. Voters in Black, Latino, Asian American, and Pacific Islander communities are less likely to have that current valid ID. These ID laws also present particular challenges for young voters, low-income voters, voters with disabilities, and folks who have changed their names, including women who have changed their name due to marriage and transgender folks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Also, Farrell says it creates new identity theft problems because it requires voters write the last four digits of a government-issued ID on the outside of their mail-in envelope, and that already has your name and address on it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenny Farrell: \u003c/strong>The measure itself does not require a secrecy flap or some other covering over that number. And then election officials retain those envelopes for as long as 22 months.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom:\u003c/strong> The initiative seems clear on its face, but there are a lot of details that still need to be hashed out if it passes. For instance, it’s unclear what kinds of government-issued ID would qualify, like tribal ID, student ID, public housing ID, gun registration ID, and whichever forms of ID are allowed could privilege certain racial, age, and socioeconomic groups. The opposition also points out that this could cost the state a bunch of money. The Legislative Analyst’s office estimated tens of millions to the low hundreds of millions of dollars to issue all those free state IDs and additional workload for state and county election officials and the state auditor. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What does campaign spending look like for this measure? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>As of early September, the yes on Prop 39 side has far outspent the no side to tune of $15 million. The spending here isn’t nearly as big as we’re seeing in some of the other contentious measures, like the billionaire tax, but polling does show it’s underwater. The most recent Berkeley IGS poll from September shows 52% of likely voters plan to vote no versus 39% planning to vote yes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Izzy Bloom, a reporter with KQED’s Politics Desk. Thanks so much, Izzy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 39 would require people to show a government-issued ID when voting in person or provide the last four digits of a government issued ID designated during voter registration for mail-in voting. It would also require election officials to maintain accurate voter registration lists and to try to verify citizenship of voters using government data. And it would also require the state auditor to audit government compliance with these requirements. A vote no on Prop 39 would keep things as they are now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/strong>: That’s it for our episode on Proposition 39. We’ll be back next week with explainers on the remaining six propositions on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is produced by Erika Cruz Guevarra, Alan Monticello, Gabriella Glick, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. I’m Olivia Allen-Price and I’m Ericka Cruz Guavarra. Have a lovely weekend.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>For would-be homebuyers in California, there are a seemingly endless number of hurdles to jump over. But perhaps the biggest one for most people is saving for the down payment. When homes cost as much as they do in California, coming up with that initial chunk of cash hurts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty standard to put down 20% of the cost of a home for a down payment. And if you can’t, you may be required to get mortgage insurance, which is just one more extra fee. The median cost of a single-family home in California is $980,000. That means you’ll need $200,000 for a down payment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And of course most homes here in the Bay Area where we’re recording cost way, way more.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It’s this issue that the proponents of Proposition 37 set out to tackle. Here’s how the measure reads on your ballot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Proposition37 creates a loan program for middle-income buyers of qualified new homes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Today, we continue on with PropFest, breaking down each of the 14 initiatives on the statewide ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>You heard that right, 14. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Direct democracy, baby. Here we go. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today, we’re going through Proposition 37, a $25 billion bond to fund a program to help moderate income Californians buy homes. Here to walk us through it is KQED’s housing reporter, Adhiti Bandlamudi. Welcome, Adhiti. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Hey Olivia, I’m ready to talk bonds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s do it. Let’s start big picture on this one. What’s the context for Prop 37 and why is it on our ballot?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, California has one of the lowest rates of homeownership compared to other states. The national average is 66 percent, but California’s is 10 percent lower. It’s like 56 percent. That’s largely because the homes here are so expensive. More than half of Californians don’t own a home until they’re in their late 40s. And for a lot of people, the down payment is the sticking point. They could make a mortgage, but they don’t have enough savings to get into the game. And what could Prop 37 do to help that situation? So it directs the California Housing Finance Agency, also called Cal HFA, to create a middle-class home buyer down payment assistance program funded with up to $25 billion in revenue bonds, which means the bond would be paid back by mortgage payments home buyers make, not by taxpayers who aren’t buying homes. There’s an interesting catch here though. This program only applies to newly constructed homes. So on the whole, this bond is trying to do two things, help middle-class home buyers buy homes and also jumpstart the housing construction industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Okay, so unlike Prop 1, the other housing bond on this year’s ballot, which we talked about the other day. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>I’m familiar with it, yes. Yes, \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Which funds all sorts of programs. This one is specifically targeting that middle income group of people who often don’t qualify for other programs from the state.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Correct, and we should be clear, the way that this bond defines middle class is a bit tricky. So it’s defined as making 200% of area median income. Another way of thinking about that is that it’s roughly double of what a typical family in the area makes. Now, because it’s tied to what local incomes are in a particular place, qualifying for this program is going to vary greatly depending on where you are living in California. The California Budget Center has a really nice breakdown of what this would mean on a county level for a family of one, two, three, four. So let’s take a family four. This would mean that in San Francisco, for example, the family could make up to $342,000 and still qualify. If the family lived in San Mateo, that number would be a little bit higher. In Solano County, on the other hand, that number would be about $100,000 lower. So again, qualifying for this program really depends on where you live in the state. And this proposition really focuses on connecting new homeowners to new housing by helping people come up with the money for a down payment, which is really interesting to watch if this passes because it can only be used for newly constructed homes, which also means that it’s gonna take time for people to use this program to buy a home because the homes have to be built.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And really it will be more useful for potential home buyers in certain places where new homes can be built.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Exactly. It’s really going to depend on the cities and the counties that are willing to build more homes, that have space to build, more homes that have public political pressure to build more homes. So it’ll be interesting to watch. Walk me through how this would actually work from the homebuyers’ perspective. Okay, so here are the mechanics of it. So buyers would have to put down at least 3% of the down payment themselves. The bond would basically allow the state to cover 17% of home price. So 17 plus three, we got 20% down, which is the standard amount needed to avoid paying mortgage insurance. Now, the bond would require that home buyers pay back that 17% down payment assistance with interest, which means they’d be paying that back along with their monthly mortgage payments. What’s required of homebuyers who want to take part in this program? Unlike other down payment assistance programs, it doesn’t require the applicant to be a first-time or first-generation homebuyer. And it also doesn’t have any rules that would mean the homebuyer owes the state any equity gained on the house. Homebuyers have to qualify for a mortgage, meet the income requirements, occupy the home as their primary residence, make monthly payments, and they would have to fully repay their loans. What’s all this going to cost taxpayers? This would not cost taxpayers anything because the interest payments homebuyers would make to the state would cover the interest on the bond.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ve got to hit pause for a minute, but when we return, more on Prop 37, including who’s behind it and what supporters and opponents say. Stay with us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Welcome back to PropFest. We’re talking about Proposition 37. Arati, this measure was placed on the ballot by a group, not the state legislature. Who’s behind it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Bob Hertzberg, he is the former state Senate majority leader. He’s now retired from the legislature, but he still gets involved with causes he cares about. He started thinking about this bill back in 2008, right after the financial crash. He saw that we immediately stopped building homes, and there weren’t a lot of incentives for developers to build middle class housing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bob Hertzberg: \u003c/strong>You know, so many things we do in government either help the super wealthy and powerful or the people that are otherwise in trouble in so many ways, and it’s the right thing to do, but the middle class feels like they’re out of the loop.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In addition to Hertzberg, who else is supporting this measure? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of broad support for this proposition. The Democratic Party, various construction and realtor groups have also shown support, as well as Javier Becerra, who’s running for governor. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Hmm. And what about opponents? What do they have to say, and who are they? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>So there are no official opponents to this bill, but there are some arguments for why it may not have its intended effect. So first off, there’s a real question right now as to whether home ownership in a state like California is still the most advantageous path. The premium to buy a house, like all those extra fees and things like insurance and interest, they can outweigh the historical benefit of buying a home and owning one. Second, while this proposition states an intent to keep the interest rate on the down payment loans low, it doesn’t guarantee it. Critics argue that because home buyers would be paying their mortgage and paying back the down payment assistance loan, it’s a second mortgage. And investors could see that as more risky and in turn that could lead to higher interest rates. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Also, some people say that this could actually exacerbate racial disparities in home ownership because there are barriers to participating. According to the Public Policy Institute of California, the median amount in Californians’ checking and savings accounts was just over $18,000 in 2025. This means that a 3% down payment could still almost or entirely wipe out the savings of what an average family has. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Third, California already has several down payment assistance programs. There are estate ones, there are ones run by counties, by local banks. Does it really need another one, especially one that’s so focused on newly built homes? And also, while we’re on the topic of newly built homes, right now, home building is pretty slow going with borrowing costs, labor costs, materials, all being really expensive. So while this bond is trying to provide incentives, there’s no guarantee that developers will bite and actually build the homes. Reform California has come out against it. Carl DeMaio is a Republican assembly member from San Diego, and he says it’s a lot of money to be borrowing right now. And he’s also worried that this bond isn’t really for home buyers, but for developers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio: \u003c/strong>This bond program basically becomes a subsidy for rich developers who give campaign contributions back to politicians. It really only helps a few people when it comes to housing, the lucky few that might win the lottery. This is not the approach for affordable housing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What does spending look like for Prop 37?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Supporters of the proposition have raised $12.7 million as of this taping. The opposition hasn’t spent any money on this measure. All right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Aditi Bandlamudi, thank you for breaking Prop 37 down for us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, thanks for having me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 37 gives the state permission to borrow up to $25 billion to create a down-payment assistance program for middle-income people. It would be repaid by people who receive those loans. A vote no means you do not want the state to borrow up to 25 billion dollars to create this program.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for PropFest today. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 38, another bond, this time for immunology and immunotherapy research, and Proposition 39 about voter ID.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re dropping episodes every weekday from now until October 9th on the Bay and Bay Curious podcast feeds. Make sure you’re subscribed so you don’t miss out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>PropFest is a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It’s produced by Alan Montecillo, Gabriella Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Olivia Allen-Price, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from Ethan Tovan Lindsey, Maha Sanad, and the whole KQED family. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can find audio and transcripts for this series at kqed.org slash prop fest. Some members of the KQEd podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you value podcasts like this one, please consider becoming a sustaining KQed member. Learn more at donate.kqed.org. I’m Olivia Ellen Price. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I’m Erika Cruz-Gavarra. We’ll see you tomorrow. Bye!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>For would-be homebuyers in California, there are a seemingly endless number of hurdles to jump over. But perhaps the biggest one for most people is saving for the down payment. When homes cost as much as they do in California, coming up with that initial chunk of cash hurts.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty standard to put down 20% of the cost of a home for a down payment. And if you can’t, you may be required to get mortgage insurance, which is just one more extra fee. The median cost of a single-family home in California is $980,000. That means you’ll need $200,000 for a down payment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty standard to put down 20% of the cost of a home for a down payment. And if you can’t, you may be required to get mortgage insurance, which is just one more extra fee. The median cost of a single-family home in California is $980,000. That means you’ll need $200,000 for a down payment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And of course most homes here in the Bay Area where we’re recording cost way, way more.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And of course most homes here in the Bay Area where we’re recording cost way, way more.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It’s this issue that the proponents of Proposition 37 set out to tackle. Here’s how the measure reads on your ballot. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It’s this issue that the proponents of Proposition 37 set out to tackle. Here’s how the measure reads on your ballot. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Proposition37 creates a loan program for middle-income buyers of qualified new homes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Proposition37 creates a loan program for middle-income buyers of qualified new homes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Today, we continue on with PropFest, breaking down each of the 14 initiatives on the statewide ballot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Today, we continue on with PropFest, breaking down each of the 14 initiatives on the statewide ballot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>You heard that right, 14. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>You heard that right, 14. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Direct democracy, baby. Here we go. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Direct democracy, baby. Here we go. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Today, we’re going through Proposition 37, a $25 billion bond to fund a program to help moderate income Californians buy homes. Here to walk us through it is KQED’s housing reporter, Adhiti Bandlamudi. Welcome, Adhiti. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Today, we’re going through Proposition 37, a $25 billion bond to fund a program to help moderate income Californians buy homes. Here to walk us through it is KQED’s housing reporter, Adhiti Bandlamudi. Welcome, Adhiti. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Hey Olivia, I’m ready to talk bonds. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s do it. Let’s start big picture on this one. What’s the context for Prop 37 and why is it on our ballot?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s do it. Let’s start big picture on this one. What’s the context for Prop 37 and why is it on our ballot?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, California has one of the lowest rates of homeownership compared to other states. The national average is 66 percent, but California’s is 10 percent lower. It’s like 56 percent. That’s largely because the homes here are so expensive. More than half of Californians don’t own a home until they’re in their late 40s. And for a lot of people, the down payment is the sticking point. They could make a mortgage, but they don’t have enough savings to get into the game. And what could Prop 37 do to help that situation? So it directs the California Housing Finance Agency, also called Cal HFA, to create a middle-class home buyer down payment assistance program funded with up to $25 billion in revenue bonds, which means the bond would be paid back by mortgage payments home buyers make, not by taxpayers who aren’t buying homes. There’s an interesting catch here though. This program only applies to newly constructed homes. So on the whole, this bond is trying to do two things, help middle-class home buyers buy homes and also jumpstart the housing construction industry. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, California has one of the lowest rates of homeownership compared to other states. The national average is 66 percent, but California’s is 10 percent lower. It’s like 56 percent. That’s largely because the homes here are so expensive. More than half of Californians don’t own a home until they’re in their late 40s. And for a lot of people, the down payment is the sticking point. They could make a mortgage, but they don’t have enough savings to get into the game. And what could Prop 37 do to help that situation? So it directs the California Housing Finance Agency, also called Cal HFA, to create a middle-class home buyer down payment assistance program funded with up to $25 billion in revenue bonds, which means the bond would be paid back by mortgage payments home buyers make, not by taxpayers who aren’t buying homes. There’s an interesting catch here though. This program only applies to newly constructed homes. So on the whole, this bond is trying to do two things, help middle-class home buyers buy homes and also jumpstart the housing construction industry. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Okay, so unlike Prop 1, the other housing bond on this year’s ballot, which we talked about the other day. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Okay, so unlike Prop 1, the other housing bond on this year’s ballot, which we talked about the other day. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>I’m familiar with it, yes. Yes, \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Which funds all sorts of programs. This one is specifically targeting that middle income group of people who often don’t qualify for other programs from the state.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Which funds all sorts of programs. This one is specifically targeting that middle income group of people who often don’t qualify for other programs from the state.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Correct, and we should be clear, the way that this bond defines middle class is a bit tricky. So it’s defined as making 200% of area median income. Another way of thinking about that is that it’s roughly double of what a typical family in the area makes. Now, because it’s tied to what local incomes are in a particular place, qualifying for this program is going to vary greatly depending on where you are living in California. The California Budget Center has a really nice breakdown of what this would mean on a county level for a family of one, two, three, four. So let’s take a family four. This would mean that in San Francisco, for example, the family could make up to $342,000 and still qualify. If the family lived in San Mateo, that number would be a little bit higher. In Solano County, on the other hand, that number would be about $100,000 lower. So again, qualifying for this program really depends on where you live in the state. And this proposition really focuses on connecting new homeowners to new housing by helping people come up with the money for a down payment, which is really interesting to watch if this passes because it can only be used for newly constructed homes, which also means that it’s gonna take time for people to use this program to buy a home because the homes have to be built.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Correct, and we should be clear, the way that this bond defines middle class is a bit tricky. So it’s defined as making 200% of area median income. Another way of thinking about that is that it’s roughly double of what a typical family in the area makes. Now, because it’s tied to what local incomes are in a particular place, qualifying for this program is going to vary greatly depending on where you are living in California. The California Budget Center has a really nice breakdown of what this would mean on a county level for a family of one, two, three, four. So let’s take a family four. This would mean that in San Francisco, for example, the family could make up to $342,000 and still qualify. If the family lived in San Mateo, that number would be a little bit higher. In Solano County, on the other hand, that number would be about $100,000 lower. So again, qualifying for this program really depends on where you live in the state. And this proposition really focuses on connecting new homeowners to new housing by helping people come up with the money for a down payment, which is really interesting to watch if this passes because it can only be used for newly constructed homes, which also means that it’s gonna take time for people to use this program to buy a home because the homes have to be built.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And really it will be more useful for potential home buyers in certain places where new homes can be built.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And really it will be more useful for potential home buyers in certain places where new homes can be built.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Exactly. It’s really going to depend on the cities and the counties that are willing to build more homes, that have space to build, more homes that have public political pressure to build more homes. So it’ll be interesting to watch. Walk me through how this would actually work from the homebuyers’ perspective. Okay, so here are the mechanics of it. So buyers would have to put down at least 3% of the down payment themselves. The bond would basically allow the state to cover 17% of home price. So 17 plus three, we got 20% down, which is the standard amount needed to avoid paying mortgage insurance. Now, the bond would require that home buyers pay back that 17% down payment assistance with interest, which means they’d be paying that back along with their monthly mortgage payments. What’s required of homebuyers who want to take part in this program? Unlike other down payment assistance programs, it doesn’t require the applicant to be a first-time or first-generation homebuyer. And it also doesn’t have any rules that would mean the homebuyer owes the state any equity gained on the house. Homebuyers have to qualify for a mortgage, meet the income requirements, occupy the home as their primary residence, make monthly payments, and they would have to fully repay their loans. What’s all this going to cost taxpayers? This would not cost taxpayers anything because the interest payments homebuyers would make to the state would cover the interest on the bond.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Exactly. It’s really going to depend on the cities and the counties that are willing to build more homes, that have space to build, more homes that have public political pressure to build more homes. So it’ll be interesting to watch. Walk me through how this would actually work from the homebuyers’ perspective. Okay, so here are the mechanics of it. So buyers would have to put down at least 3% of the down payment themselves. The bond would basically allow the state to cover 17% of home price. So 17 plus three, we got 20% down, which is the standard amount needed to avoid paying mortgage insurance. Now, the bond would require that home buyers pay back that 17% down payment assistance with interest, which means they’d be paying that back along with their monthly mortgage payments. What’s required of homebuyers who want to take part in this program? Unlike other down payment assistance programs, it doesn’t require the applicant to be a first-time or first-generation homebuyer. And it also doesn’t have any rules that would mean the homebuyer owes the state any equity gained on the house. Homebuyers have to qualify for a mortgage, meet the income requirements, occupy the home as their primary residence, make monthly payments, and they would have to fully repay their loans. What’s all this going to cost taxpayers? This would not cost taxpayers anything because the interest payments homebuyers would make to the state would cover the interest on the bond.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ve got to hit pause for a minute, but when we return, more on Prop 37, including who’s behind it and what supporters and opponents say. Stay with us. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ve got to hit pause for a minute, but when we return, more on Prop 37, including who’s behind it and what supporters and opponents say. Stay with us. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Welcome back to PropFest. We’re talking about Proposition 37. Arati, this measure was placed on the ballot by a group, not the state legislature. Who’s behind it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Welcome back to PropFest. We’re talking about Proposition 37. Arati, this measure was placed on the ballot by a group, not the state legislature. Who’s behind it?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Bob Hertzberg, he is the former state Senate majority leader. He’s now retired from the legislature, but he still gets involved with causes he cares about. He started thinking about this bill back in 2008, right after the financial crash. He saw that we immediately stopped building homes, and there weren’t a lot of incentives for developers to build middle class housing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Bob Hertzberg, he is the former state Senate majority leader. He’s now retired from the legislature, but he still gets involved with causes he cares about. He started thinking about this bill back in 2008, right after the financial crash. He saw that we immediately stopped building homes, and there weren’t a lot of incentives for developers to build middle class housing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bob Hertzberg: \u003c/strong>You know, so many things we do in government either help the super wealthy and powerful or the people that are otherwise in trouble in so many ways, and it’s the right thing to do, but the middle class feels like they’re out of the loop.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bob Hertzberg: \u003c/strong>You know, so many things we do in government either help the super wealthy and powerful or the people that are otherwise in trouble in so many ways, and it’s the right thing to do, but the middle class feels like they’re out of the loop.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In addition to Hertzberg, who else is supporting this measure? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In addition to Hertzberg, who else is supporting this measure? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of broad support for this proposition. The Democratic Party, various construction and realtor groups have also shown support, as well as Javier Becerra, who’s running for governor. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of broad support for this proposition. The Democratic Party, various construction and realtor groups have also shown support, as well as Javier Becerra, who’s running for governor. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Hmm. And what about opponents? What do they have to say, and who are they? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Hmm. And what about opponents? What do they have to say, and who are they? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>So there are no official opponents to this bill, but there are some arguments for why it may not have its intended effect. So first off, there’s a real question right now as to whether home ownership in a state like California is still the most advantageous path. The premium to buy a house, like all those extra fees and things like insurance and interest, they can outweigh the historical benefit of buying a home and owning one. Second, while this proposition states an intent to keep the interest rate on the down payment loans low, it doesn’t guarantee it. Critics argue that because home buyers would be paying their mortgage and paying back the down payment assistance loan, it’s a second mortgage. And investors could see that as more risky and in turn that could lead to higher interest rates. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>So there are no official opponents to this bill, but there are some arguments for why it may not have its intended effect. So first off, there’s a real question right now as to whether home ownership in a state like California is still the most advantageous path. The premium to buy a house, like all those extra fees and things like insurance and interest, they can outweigh the historical benefit of buying a home and owning one. Second, while this proposition states an intent to keep the interest rate on the down payment loans low, it doesn’t guarantee it. Critics argue that because home buyers would be paying their mortgage and paying back the down payment assistance loan, it’s a second mortgage. And investors could see that as more risky and in turn that could lead to higher interest rates. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Also, some people say that this could actually exacerbate racial disparities in home ownership because there are barriers to participating. According to the Public Policy Institute of California, the median amount in Californians’ checking and savings accounts was just over $18,000 in 2025. This means that a 3% down payment could still almost or entirely wipe out the savings of what an average family has. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Also, some people say that this could actually exacerbate racial disparities in home ownership because there are barriers to participating. According to the Public Policy Institute of California, the median amount in Californians’ checking and savings accounts was just over $18,000 in 2025. This means that a 3% down payment could still almost or entirely wipe out the savings of what an average family has. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Third, California already has several down payment assistance programs. There are estate ones, there are ones run by counties, by local banks. Does it really need another one, especially one that’s so focused on newly built homes? And also, while we’re on the topic of newly built homes, right now, home building is pretty slow going with borrowing costs, labor costs, materials, all being really expensive. So while this bond is trying to provide incentives, there’s no guarantee that developers will bite and actually build the homes. Reform California has come out against it. Carl DeMaio is a Republican assembly member from San Diego, and he says it’s a lot of money to be borrowing right now. And he’s also worried that this bond isn’t really for home buyers, but for developers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Third, California already has several down payment assistance programs. There are estate ones, there are ones run by counties, by local banks. Does it really need another one, especially one that’s so focused on newly built homes? And also, while we’re on the topic of newly built homes, right now, home building is pretty slow going with borrowing costs, labor costs, materials, all being really expensive. So while this bond is trying to provide incentives, there’s no guarantee that developers will bite and actually build the homes. Reform California has come out against it. Carl DeMaio is a Republican assembly member from San Diego, and he says it’s a lot of money to be borrowing right now. And he’s also worried that this bond isn’t really for home buyers, but for developers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio: \u003c/strong>This bond program basically becomes a subsidy for rich developers who give campaign contributions back to politicians. It really only helps a few people when it comes to housing, the lucky few that might win the lottery. This is not the approach for affordable housing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio: \u003c/strong>This bond program basically becomes a subsidy for rich developers who give campaign contributions back to politicians. It really only helps a few people when it comes to housing, the lucky few that might win the lottery. This is not the approach for affordable housing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What does spending look like for Prop 37?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What does spending look like for Prop 37?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Supporters of the proposition have raised $12.7 million as of this taping. The opposition hasn’t spent any money on this measure. All right.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Supporters of the proposition have raised $12.7 million as of this taping. The opposition hasn’t spent any money on this measure. All right.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Aditi Bandlamudi, thank you for breaking Prop 37 down for us. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Aditi Bandlamudi, thank you for breaking Prop 37 down for us. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, thanks for having me. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, thanks for having me. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 37 gives the state permission to borrow up to $25 billion to create a down-payment assistance program for middle-income people. It would be repaid by people who receive those loans. A vote no means you do not want the state to borrow up to 25 billion dollars to create this program.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 37 gives the state permission to borrow up to $25 billion to create a down-payment assistance program for middle-income people. It would be repaid by people who receive those loans. A vote no means you do not want the state to borrow up to 25 billion dollars to create this program.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for PropFest today. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 38, another bond, this time for immunology and immunotherapy research, and Proposition 39 about voter ID.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for PropFest today. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 38, another bond, this time for immunology and immunotherapy research, and Proposition 39 about voter ID.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re dropping episodes every weekday from now until October 9th on the Bay and Bay Curious podcast feeds. Make sure you’re subscribed so you don’t miss out.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re dropping episodes every weekday from now until October 9th on the Bay and Bay Curious podcast feeds. Make sure you’re subscribed so you don’t miss out.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>PropFest is a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It’s produced by Alan Montecillo, Gabriella Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Olivia Allen-Price, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>PropFest is a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It’s produced by Alan Montecillo, Gabriella Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Olivia Allen-Price, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from Ethan Tovan Lindsey, Maha Sanad, and the whole KQED family. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from Ethan Tovan Lindsey, Maha Sanad, and the whole KQED family. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can find audio and transcripts for this series at kqed.org slash prop fest. Some members of the KQEd podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>You can find audio and transcripts for this series at kqed.org slash prop fest. Some members of the KQEd podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you value podcasts like this one, please consider becoming a sustaining KQed member. Learn more at donate.kqed.org. I’m Olivia Ellen Price. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you value podcasts like this one, please consider becoming a sustaining KQed member. Learn more at donate.kqed.org. I’m Olivia Ellen Price. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I’m Erika Cruz-Gavarra. We’ll see you tomorrow. Bye!\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I’m Erika Cruz-Gavarra. We’ll see you tomorrow. Bye!\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>For would-be homebuyers in California, there are a seemingly endless number of hurdles to jump over. But perhaps the biggest one for most people is saving for the down payment. When homes cost as much as they do in California, coming up with that initial chunk of cash hurts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty standard to put down 20% of the cost of a home for a down payment. And if you can’t, you may be required to get mortgage insurance, which is just one more extra fee. The median cost of a single-family home in California is $980,000. That means you’ll need $200,000 for a down payment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And of course most homes here in the Bay Area where we’re recording cost way, way more.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It’s this issue that the proponents of Proposition 37 set out to tackle. Here’s how the measure reads on your ballot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Proposition37 creates a loan program for middle-income buyers of qualified new homes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Today, we continue on with PropFest, breaking down each of the 14 initiatives on the statewide ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>You heard that right, 14. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Direct democracy, baby. Here we go. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today, we’re going through Proposition 37, a $25 billion bond to fund a program to help moderate income Californians buy homes. Here to walk us through it is KQED’s housing reporter, Adhiti Bandlamudi. Welcome, Adhiti. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Hey Olivia, I’m ready to talk bonds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s do it. Let’s start big picture on this one. What’s the context for Prop 37 and why is it on our ballot?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, California has one of the lowest rates of homeownership compared to other states. The national average is 66 percent, but California’s is 10 percent lower. It’s like 56 percent. That’s largely because the homes here are so expensive. More than half of Californians don’t own a home until they’re in their late 40s. And for a lot of people, the down payment is the sticking point. They could make a mortgage, but they don’t have enough savings to get into the game. And what could Prop 37 do to help that situation? So it directs the California Housing Finance Agency, also called Cal HFA, to create a middle-class home buyer down payment assistance program funded with up to $25 billion in revenue bonds, which means the bond would be paid back by mortgage payments home buyers make, not by taxpayers who aren’t buying homes. There’s an interesting catch here though. This program only applies to newly constructed homes. So on the whole, this bond is trying to do two things, help middle-class home buyers buy homes and also jumpstart the housing construction industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Okay, so unlike Prop 1, the other housing bond on this year’s ballot, which we talked about the other day. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>I’m familiar with it, yes. Yes, \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Which funds all sorts of programs. This one is specifically targeting that middle income group of people who often don’t qualify for other programs from the state.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Correct, and we should be clear, the way that this bond defines middle class is a bit tricky. So it’s defined as making 200% of area median income. Another way of thinking about that is that it’s roughly double of what a typical family in the area makes. Now, because it’s tied to what local incomes are in a particular place, qualifying for this program is going to vary greatly depending on where you are living in California. The California Budget Center has a really nice breakdown of what this would mean on a county level for a family of one, two, three, four. So let’s take a family four. This would mean that in San Francisco, for example, the family could make up to $342,000 and still qualify. If the family lived in San Mateo, that number would be a little bit higher. In Solano County, on the other hand, that number would be about $100,000 lower. So again, qualifying for this program really depends on where you live in the state. And this proposition really focuses on connecting new homeowners to new housing by helping people come up with the money for a down payment, which is really interesting to watch if this passes because it can only be used for newly constructed homes, which also means that it’s gonna take time for people to use this program to buy a home because the homes have to be built.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And really it will be more useful for potential home buyers in certain places where new homes can be built.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Exactly. It’s really going to depend on the cities and the counties that are willing to build more homes, that have space to build, more homes that have public political pressure to build more homes. So it’ll be interesting to watch. Walk me through how this would actually work from the homebuyers’ perspective. Okay, so here are the mechanics of it. So buyers would have to put down at least 3% of the down payment themselves. The bond would basically allow the state to cover 17% of home price. So 17 plus three, we got 20% down, which is the standard amount needed to avoid paying mortgage insurance. Now, the bond would require that home buyers pay back that 17% down payment assistance with interest, which means they’d be paying that back along with their monthly mortgage payments. What’s required of homebuyers who want to take part in this program? Unlike other down payment assistance programs, it doesn’t require the applicant to be a first-time or first-generation homebuyer. And it also doesn’t have any rules that would mean the homebuyer owes the state any equity gained on the house. Homebuyers have to qualify for a mortgage, meet the income requirements, occupy the home as their primary residence, make monthly payments, and they would have to fully repay their loans. What’s all this going to cost taxpayers? This would not cost taxpayers anything because the interest payments homebuyers would make to the state would cover the interest on the bond.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ve got to hit pause for a minute, but when we return, more on Prop 37, including who’s behind it and what supporters and opponents say. Stay with us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Welcome back to PropFest. We’re talking about Proposition 37. Arati, this measure was placed on the ballot by a group, not the state legislature. Who’s behind it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Bob Hertzberg, he is the former state Senate majority leader. He’s now retired from the legislature, but he still gets involved with causes he cares about. He started thinking about this bill back in 2008, right after the financial crash. He saw that we immediately stopped building homes, and there weren’t a lot of incentives for developers to build middle class housing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bob Hertzberg: \u003c/strong>You know, so many things we do in government either help the super wealthy and powerful or the people that are otherwise in trouble in so many ways, and it’s the right thing to do, but the middle class feels like they’re out of the loop.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In addition to Hertzberg, who else is supporting this measure? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of broad support for this proposition. The Democratic Party, various construction and realtor groups have also shown support, as well as Javier Becerra, who’s running for governor. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Hmm. And what about opponents? What do they have to say, and who are they? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>So there are no official opponents to this bill, but there are some arguments for why it may not have its intended effect. So first off, there’s a real question right now as to whether home ownership in a state like California is still the most advantageous path. The premium to buy a house, like all those extra fees and things like insurance and interest, they can outweigh the historical benefit of buying a home and owning one. Second, while this proposition states an intent to keep the interest rate on the down payment loans low, it doesn’t guarantee it. Critics argue that because home buyers would be paying their mortgage and paying back the down payment assistance loan, it’s a second mortgage. And investors could see that as more risky and in turn that could lead to higher interest rates. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Also, some people say that this could actually exacerbate racial disparities in home ownership because there are barriers to participating. According to the Public Policy Institute of California, the median amount in Californians’ checking and savings accounts was just over $18,000 in 2025. This means that a 3% down payment could still almost or entirely wipe out the savings of what an average family has. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Third, California already has several down payment assistance programs. There are estate ones, there are ones run by counties, by local banks. Does it really need another one, especially one that’s so focused on newly built homes? And also, while we’re on the topic of newly built homes, right now, home building is pretty slow going with borrowing costs, labor costs, materials, all being really expensive. So while this bond is trying to provide incentives, there’s no guarantee that developers will bite and actually build the homes. Reform California has come out against it. Carl DeMaio is a Republican assembly member from San Diego, and he says it’s a lot of money to be borrowing right now. And he’s also worried that this bond isn’t really for home buyers, but for developers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio: \u003c/strong>This bond program basically becomes a subsidy for rich developers who give campaign contributions back to politicians. It really only helps a few people when it comes to housing, the lucky few that might win the lottery. This is not the approach for affordable housing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What does spending look like for Prop 37?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Supporters of the proposition have raised $12.7 million as of this taping. The opposition hasn’t spent any money on this measure. All right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Aditi Bandlamudi, thank you for breaking Prop 37 down for us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, thanks for having me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 37 gives the state permission to borrow up to $25 billion to create a down-payment assistance program for middle-income people. It would be repaid by people who receive those loans. A vote no means you do not want the state to borrow up to 25 billion dollars to create this program.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for PropFest today. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 38, another bond, this time for immunology and immunotherapy research, and Proposition 39 about voter ID.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re dropping episodes every weekday from now until October 9th on the Bay and Bay Curious podcast feeds. Make sure you’re subscribed so you don’t miss out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>PropFest is a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It’s produced by Alan Montecillo, Gabriella Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Olivia Allen-Price, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from Ethan Tovan Lindsey, Maha Sanad, and the whole KQED family. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can find audio and transcripts for this series at kqed.org slash prop fest. Some members of the KQEd podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you value podcasts like this one, please consider becoming a sustaining KQed member. Learn more at donate.kqed.org. I’m Olivia Ellen Price. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I’m Erika Cruz-Gavarra. We’ll see you tomorrow. Bye!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Prop 4: Allows Cities to Create Public Campaign Financing Programs",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>If you want to get elected to office in California, it’s no big secret that you’ll need to raise money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And in some cases, a lot of money. State legislative campaigns can run into the million.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That puts candidates who don’t come from money or have rich connections at a disadvantage, some say. And that’s the issue that creators of Proposition 4 are trying to address. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Here’s how it reads on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over:\u003c/strong> Proposition four, repeals prohibition against public funding of election campaigns. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen Price. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I’m Erika Cruz Guevara. This is Prop Fest, a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious, where we break down the propositions on the statewide ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s a marathon this year with 14 initiatives. So let’s get right to it, shall we? Here to talk campaign finance with us is reporter Izzy Bloom from KQED’s politics desk. Welcome, Izzy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Hi, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Okay, so Prop 4 would repeal part of a proposition that was passed by voters back in 1988. What was the deal with that prop?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>So,\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>in 1988, there was a feeling very similar to right now that there’s too much money in politics, especially corporate money, special interest money. On top of that, the mood in the 80s when Reagan was president was very pro-business, anti-tax, anti-spending. So in 1988, Prop 73 banned public funds for campaign expenses. Basically, that meant governments can’t allow politicians to use taxpayer money for their campaigns. And then that proposition did a second thing, which is set new limits on campaign contributions. But a few years later, a federal judge threw out that second tenant, and just the public financing ban remained. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So then how do we get from there to Prop 4? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>So state Senator Tom Umberg wrote the bill that ended up becoming Prop 4. It’s similarly a response to this growing feeling that big money and corporate interests and super PACs have too much influence in politics. And that public financing helps candidates who don’t have a ton of personal wealth or access to those special interests. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s look under the hood. How does this actually work if passed? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>What it does is repeal the ban from Prop 73 to allow state and local governments to set up public financing programs for election campaigns. Candidates would have to meet certain eligibility criteria and agree to spending limits. And the initiative also spells out that the funds could not be used for legal defense costs, fines, or repayment of personal loans. It also has this provision that allows the legislature to amend the rules about how public financing works, like the mechanics and eligibility requirements without needing to go back to the ballot and ask voters to approve it again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Does this mean that automatically there will be a pool of money for political candidates to pull from?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>No, it’s basically just allowing governments to create programs and they will have, you know, specific eligibility requirements that they’ll have to decide for themselves, like raising a certain amount of small dollar donations or not accepting PAC money or capping how many personal funds they donate to their campaigns.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>But I understand that there are some cities that have already been providing public funding for campaigns. Is that true? And if so, like how?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so there’s an exception in Prop 73 for charter cities, which have their own constitution and that gives the state less authority over them. A lot of the biggest cities in California are charter cities like Los Angeles and San Francisco, Oakland, Berkeley. And so they already have public financing programs. Supporters of this initiative point to the success of candidates like Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karen Bass: \u003c/strong>Thanks to L.A.’s Supermatch program, every qualified donation from Los Angeles residents is matched 6-1 by the city.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Or New York City Mayor Zohran Mamdani who accessed public finance systems and won their elections.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Us through how one of these programs works so we can kind of get a sense for it. Let’s take a look at San Francisco, for example.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>There are a lot of hurdles a candidate has to pass to qualify for the money. So a candidate for mayor in San Francisco can receive up to $1.2 million in public funds. There are minimum qualifying contributions. So you have to show you have support from actual voters. You need to be opposed by a candidate who raises or spends at least $50,000. You have to agree to a spending limit of roughly $1,500,000 and agree to limits on how much. You donate to your own campaign. And then it’s a match program in San Francisco. That’s a lot, but essentially there are many rules and you need to prove you’re a serious candidate. And the program can’t favor candidates in one party over the other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Is that how all the programs in California would look if Proposition 4 passes? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>No, there’s a lot of different ways a state or local government could set up a program like this. Like in Seattle, Washington, they have democracy vouchers, giving residents $100. They get to decide which candidates to distribute that money to. And that’s supposed to encourage candidates to engage with the people they hope to represent instead of appealing to special interests.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>While we pause for a quick break, won’t you consider becoming a member of KQED? Donate whatever works for your budget at donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. One-time gifts, ongoing donations, we are here for it all. Thanks! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back talking about proposition four, the public funding for campaigns prop with KQED’s Izzy Bloom. Izzy, who is supporting this measure and why?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>This measure is supported by the California Democratic Party, California Common Cause, the League of Women Voters of California, California Clean Money Campaign. Jenny Farrell, the executive director of the League for Women Voters of California said this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenny Farrell: \u003c/strong>Public financing can make it possible for someone who is deeply connected to their community, but doesn’t have a Rolodex full of wealthy donors to run a viable campaign. Before public financing, women made up a minority of Los Angeles City Council. Once Los Angeles put public financing in place, 14 or 15 of the members were elected using matching funds, and a majority of members now are women, a majority members are people of color. And it’s the most diverse city council in the city’s history.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Who is opposing this measure and why? Anti-tax groups like the California Taxpayers Association, the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers’ Association, as well as the PAC Reform California run by Republican Assemblymember Carl DeMaio, a former chair of the Fair Political Practices Commission, Dan Schnurr, and they all argue that the measure is written too broadly. It leaves each government to set its own eligibility criteria and spending limits, and that makes the system vulnerable to abuse. David Kline is spokesperson for the California Taxpayers Association, and he thinks taxpayer dollars shouldn’t be used for campaigns.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Kline: \u003c/strong>The whole idea on its face is bad. Tax dollars should be used to help the taxpayers, to help constituents by promoting reasonable, efficient government services. Not to give money to a candidate to then put out a hit piece mailer on an opponent, and not to flood our mailboxes with even more junk mail from campaigns every election season.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Also, candidates already have to file campaign finance reports disclosing contributions and expenditures, which Kline says creates a lot of transparency around where big money is putting their influence and voters can decide for themselves whether they support that or not. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What does spending look like on this spending prop? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Not much spending on this initiative, just $7,500 in opposition from Reform California. As for the cost to the state, the Nonpartisan Legislative Analyst’s Office estimates it could cost the state a few hundred thousand dollars a year just to cover the additional hours and staffing for the Fair Political Practices Commission to answer state and local government’s questions about the programs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Reporter Izzy Bloom from KQED’s Politics Desk, thank you for walking us through this one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 4 means you want to remove the ban on public funding for election campaigns, opening the door for state or local governments to create new programs. A vote no means you wanna keep the ban in place.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s all for our episode on Prop Four. Also in your podcast feed today is our show on Prop Five, which takes on statewide recalls. And we’ll be back with even more tomorrow.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>PropFest is a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It’s produced by Erica Cruz Guevarra, Alan Montecillo, Gabriella Glueck,Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme and me, Olivia Allen Price. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from Katie Springer, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey, and everyone on Team KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Some members of the KQD podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen Price. And I’m Erika Cruz-Gavarra. Talk to you next time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>If you want to get elected to office in California, it’s no big secret that you’ll need to raise money.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>If you want to get elected to office in California, it’s no big secret that you’ll need to raise money.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And in some cases, a lot of money. State legislative campaigns can run into the million.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And in some cases, a lot of money. State legislative campaigns can run into the million.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That puts candidates who don’t come from money or have rich connections at a disadvantage, some say. And that’s the issue that creators of Proposition 4 are trying to address. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That puts candidates who don’t come from money or have rich connections at a disadvantage, some say. And that’s the issue that creators of Proposition 4 are trying to address. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Here’s how it reads on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Here’s how it reads on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over:\u003c/strong> Proposition four, repeals prohibition against public funding of election campaigns. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over:\u003c/strong> Proposition four, repeals prohibition against public funding of election campaigns. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen Price. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen Price. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I’m Erika Cruz Guevara. This is Prop Fest, a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious, where we break down the propositions on the statewide ballot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I’m Erika Cruz Guevara. This is Prop Fest, a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious, where we break down the propositions on the statewide ballot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s a marathon this year with 14 initiatives. So let’s get right to it, shall we? Here to talk campaign finance with us is reporter Izzy Bloom from KQED’s politics desk. Welcome, Izzy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s a marathon this year with 14 initiatives. So let’s get right to it, shall we? Here to talk campaign finance with us is reporter Izzy Bloom from KQED’s politics desk. Welcome, Izzy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Hi, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Hi, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Okay, so Prop 4 would repeal part of a proposition that was passed by voters back in 1988. What was the deal with that prop?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Okay, so Prop 4 would repeal part of a proposition that was passed by voters back in 1988. What was the deal with that prop?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>So,\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>in 1988, there was a feeling very similar to right now that there’s too much money in politics, especially corporate money, special interest money. On top of that, the mood in the 80s when Reagan was president was very pro-business, anti-tax, anti-spending. So in 1988, Prop 73 banned public funds for campaign expenses. Basically, that meant governments can’t allow politicians to use taxpayer money for their campaigns. And then that proposition did a second thing, which is set new limits on campaign contributions. But a few years later, a federal judge threw out that second tenant, and just the public financing ban remained. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>So,\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>in 1988, there was a feeling very similar to right now that there’s too much money in politics, especially corporate money, special interest money. On top of that, the mood in the 80s when Reagan was president was very pro-business, anti-tax, anti-spending. So in 1988, Prop 73 banned public funds for campaign expenses. Basically, that meant governments can’t allow politicians to use taxpayer money for their campaigns. And then that proposition did a second thing, which is set new limits on campaign contributions. But a few years later, a federal judge threw out that second tenant, and just the public financing ban remained. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So then how do we get from there to Prop 4? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So then how do we get from there to Prop 4? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>So state Senator Tom Umberg wrote the bill that ended up becoming Prop 4. It’s similarly a response to this growing feeling that big money and corporate interests and super PACs have too much influence in politics. And that public financing helps candidates who don’t have a ton of personal wealth or access to those special interests. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>So state Senator Tom Umberg wrote the bill that ended up becoming Prop 4. It’s similarly a response to this growing feeling that big money and corporate interests and super PACs have too much influence in politics. And that public financing helps candidates who don’t have a ton of personal wealth or access to those special interests. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s look under the hood. How does this actually work if passed? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s look under the hood. How does this actually work if passed? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>What it does is repeal the ban from Prop 73 to allow state and local governments to set up public financing programs for election campaigns. Candidates would have to meet certain eligibility criteria and agree to spending limits. And the initiative also spells out that the funds could not be used for legal defense costs, fines, or repayment of personal loans. It also has this provision that allows the legislature to amend the rules about how public financing works, like the mechanics and eligibility requirements without needing to go back to the ballot and ask voters to approve it again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>What it does is repeal the ban from Prop 73 to allow state and local governments to set up public financing programs for election campaigns. Candidates would have to meet certain eligibility criteria and agree to spending limits. And the initiative also spells out that the funds could not be used for legal defense costs, fines, or repayment of personal loans. It also has this provision that allows the legislature to amend the rules about how public financing works, like the mechanics and eligibility requirements without needing to go back to the ballot and ask voters to approve it again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Does this mean that automatically there will be a pool of money for political candidates to pull from?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Does this mean that automatically there will be a pool of money for political candidates to pull from?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>No, it’s basically just allowing governments to create programs and they will have, you know, specific eligibility requirements that they’ll have to decide for themselves, like raising a certain amount of small dollar donations or not accepting PAC money or capping how many personal funds they donate to their campaigns.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>No, it’s basically just allowing governments to create programs and they will have, you know, specific eligibility requirements that they’ll have to decide for themselves, like raising a certain amount of small dollar donations or not accepting PAC money or capping how many personal funds they donate to their campaigns.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>But I understand that there are some cities that have already been providing public funding for campaigns. Is that true? And if so, like how?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>But I understand that there are some cities that have already been providing public funding for campaigns. Is that true? And if so, like how?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so there’s an exception in Prop 73 for charter cities, which have their own constitution and that gives the state less authority over them. A lot of the biggest cities in California are charter cities like Los Angeles and San Francisco, Oakland, Berkeley. And so they already have public financing programs. Supporters of this initiative point to the success of candidates like Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so there’s an exception in Prop 73 for charter cities, which have their own constitution and that gives the state less authority over them. A lot of the biggest cities in California are charter cities like Los Angeles and San Francisco, Oakland, Berkeley. And so they already have public financing programs. Supporters of this initiative point to the success of candidates like Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karen Bass: \u003c/strong>Thanks to L.A.’s Supermatch program, every qualified donation from Los Angeles residents is matched 6-1 by the city.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karen Bass: \u003c/strong>Thanks to L.A.’s Supermatch program, every qualified donation from Los Angeles residents is matched 6-1 by the city.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Or New York City Mayor Zohran Mamdani who accessed public finance systems and won their elections.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Or New York City Mayor Zohran Mamdani who accessed public finance systems and won their elections.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Us through how one of these programs works so we can kind of get a sense for it. Let’s take a look at San Francisco, for example.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Us through how one of these programs works so we can kind of get a sense for it. Let’s take a look at San Francisco, for example.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>There are a lot of hurdles a candidate has to pass to qualify for the money. So a candidate for mayor in San Francisco can receive up to $1.2 million in public funds. There are minimum qualifying contributions. So you have to show you have support from actual voters. You need to be opposed by a candidate who raises or spends at least $50,000. You have to agree to a spending limit of roughly $1,500,000 and agree to limits on how much. You donate to your own campaign. And then it’s a match program in San Francisco. That’s a lot, but essentially there are many rules and you need to prove you’re a serious candidate. And the program can’t favor candidates in one party over the other.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>There are a lot of hurdles a candidate has to pass to qualify for the money. So a candidate for mayor in San Francisco can receive up to $1.2 million in public funds. There are minimum qualifying contributions. So you have to show you have support from actual voters. You need to be opposed by a candidate who raises or spends at least $50,000. You have to agree to a spending limit of roughly $1,500,000 and agree to limits on how much. You donate to your own campaign. And then it’s a match program in San Francisco. That’s a lot, but essentially there are many rules and you need to prove you’re a serious candidate. And the program can’t favor candidates in one party over the other.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Is that how all the programs in California would look if Proposition 4 passes? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Is that how all the programs in California would look if Proposition 4 passes? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>No, there’s a lot of different ways a state or local government could set up a program like this. Like in Seattle, Washington, they have democracy vouchers, giving residents $100. They get to decide which candidates to distribute that money to. And that’s supposed to encourage candidates to engage with the people they hope to represent instead of appealing to special interests.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>No, there’s a lot of different ways a state or local government could set up a program like this. Like in Seattle, Washington, they have democracy vouchers, giving residents $100. They get to decide which candidates to distribute that money to. And that’s supposed to encourage candidates to engage with the people they hope to represent instead of appealing to special interests.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>While we pause for a quick break, won’t you consider becoming a member of KQED? Donate whatever works for your budget at donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. One-time gifts, ongoing donations, we are here for it all. Thanks! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>While we pause for a quick break, won’t you consider becoming a member of KQED? Donate whatever works for your budget at donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. One-time gifts, ongoing donations, we are here for it all. Thanks! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back talking about proposition four, the public funding for campaigns prop with KQED’s Izzy Bloom. Izzy, who is supporting this measure and why?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back talking about proposition four, the public funding for campaigns prop with KQED’s Izzy Bloom. Izzy, who is supporting this measure and why?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>This measure is supported by the California Democratic Party, California Common Cause, the League of Women Voters of California, California Clean Money Campaign. Jenny Farrell, the executive director of the League for Women Voters of California said this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>This measure is supported by the California Democratic Party, California Common Cause, the League of Women Voters of California, California Clean Money Campaign. Jenny Farrell, the executive director of the League for Women Voters of California said this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenny Farrell: \u003c/strong>Public financing can make it possible for someone who is deeply connected to their community, but doesn’t have a Rolodex full of wealthy donors to run a viable campaign. Before public financing, women made up a minority of Los Angeles City Council. Once Los Angeles put public financing in place, 14 or 15 of the members were elected using matching funds, and a majority of members now are women, a majority members are people of color. And it’s the most diverse city council in the city’s history.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenny Farrell: \u003c/strong>Public financing can make it possible for someone who is deeply connected to their community, but doesn’t have a Rolodex full of wealthy donors to run a viable campaign. Before public financing, women made up a minority of Los Angeles City Council. Once Los Angeles put public financing in place, 14 or 15 of the members were elected using matching funds, and a majority of members now are women, a majority members are people of color. And it’s the most diverse city council in the city’s history.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Who is opposing this measure and why? Anti-tax groups like the California Taxpayers Association, the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers’ Association, as well as the PAC Reform California run by Republican Assemblymember Carl DeMaio, a former chair of the Fair Political Practices Commission, Dan Schnurr, and they all argue that the measure is written too broadly. It leaves each government to set its own eligibility criteria and spending limits, and that makes the system vulnerable to abuse. David Kline is spokesperson for the California Taxpayers Association, and he thinks taxpayer dollars shouldn’t be used for campaigns.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Who is opposing this measure and why? Anti-tax groups like the California Taxpayers Association, the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers’ Association, as well as the PAC Reform California run by Republican Assemblymember Carl DeMaio, a former chair of the Fair Political Practices Commission, Dan Schnurr, and they all argue that the measure is written too broadly. It leaves each government to set its own eligibility criteria and spending limits, and that makes the system vulnerable to abuse. David Kline is spokesperson for the California Taxpayers Association, and he thinks taxpayer dollars shouldn’t be used for campaigns.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Kline: \u003c/strong>The whole idea on its face is bad. Tax dollars should be used to help the taxpayers, to help constituents by promoting reasonable, efficient government services. Not to give money to a candidate to then put out a hit piece mailer on an opponent, and not to flood our mailboxes with even more junk mail from campaigns every election season.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Kline: \u003c/strong>The whole idea on its face is bad. Tax dollars should be used to help the taxpayers, to help constituents by promoting reasonable, efficient government services. Not to give money to a candidate to then put out a hit piece mailer on an opponent, and not to flood our mailboxes with even more junk mail from campaigns every election season.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Also, candidates already have to file campaign finance reports disclosing contributions and expenditures, which Kline says creates a lot of transparency around where big money is putting their influence and voters can decide for themselves whether they support that or not. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Also, candidates already have to file campaign finance reports disclosing contributions and expenditures, which Kline says creates a lot of transparency around where big money is putting their influence and voters can decide for themselves whether they support that or not. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What does spending look like on this spending prop? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Not much spending on this initiative, just $7,500 in opposition from Reform California. As for the cost to the state, the Nonpartisan Legislative Analyst’s Office estimates it could cost the state a few hundred thousand dollars a year just to cover the additional hours and staffing for the Fair Political Practices Commission to answer state and local government’s questions about the programs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Reporter Izzy Bloom from KQED’s Politics Desk, thank you for walking us through this one.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 4 means you want to remove the ban on public funding for election campaigns, opening the door for state or local governments to create new programs. A vote no means you wanna keep the ban in place.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s all for our episode on Prop Four. Also in your podcast feed today is our show on Prop Five, which takes on statewide recalls. And we’ll be back with even more tomorrow.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s all for our episode on Prop Four. Also in your podcast feed today is our show on Prop Five, which takes on statewide recalls. And we’ll be back with even more tomorrow.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>PropFest is a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It’s produced by Erica Cruz Guevarra, Alan Montecillo, Gabriella Glueck,Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme and me, Olivia Allen Price. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from Katie Springer, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey, and everyone on Team KQED. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Some members of the KQD podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen Price. And I’m Erika Cruz-Gavarra. Talk to you next time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Proposition 4 would overturn a prior ban on publicly funded financing programs for political candidates.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>If you want to get elected to office in California, it’s no big secret that you’ll need to raise money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And in some cases, a lot of money. State legislative campaigns can run into the million.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That puts candidates who don’t come from money or have rich connections at a disadvantage, some say. And that’s the issue that creators of Proposition 4 are trying to address. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Here’s how it reads on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over:\u003c/strong> Proposition four, repeals prohibition against public funding of election campaigns. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen Price. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I’m Erika Cruz Guevara. This is Prop Fest, a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious, where we break down the propositions on the statewide ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s a marathon this year with 14 initiatives. So let’s get right to it, shall we? Here to talk campaign finance with us is reporter Izzy Bloom from KQED’s politics desk. Welcome, Izzy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Hi, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Okay, so Prop 4 would repeal part of a proposition that was passed by voters back in 1988. What was the deal with that prop?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>So,\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>in 1988, there was a feeling very similar to right now that there’s too much money in politics, especially corporate money, special interest money. On top of that, the mood in the 80s when Reagan was president was very pro-business, anti-tax, anti-spending. So in 1988, Prop 73 banned public funds for campaign expenses. Basically, that meant governments can’t allow politicians to use taxpayer money for their campaigns. And then that proposition did a second thing, which is set new limits on campaign contributions. But a few years later, a federal judge threw out that second tenant, and just the public financing ban remained. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So then how do we get from there to Prop 4? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>So state Senator Tom Umberg wrote the bill that ended up becoming Prop 4. It’s similarly a response to this growing feeling that big money and corporate interests and super PACs have too much influence in politics. And that public financing helps candidates who don’t have a ton of personal wealth or access to those special interests. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s look under the hood. How does this actually work if passed? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>What it does is repeal the ban from Prop 73 to allow state and local governments to set up public financing programs for election campaigns. Candidates would have to meet certain eligibility criteria and agree to spending limits. And the initiative also spells out that the funds could not be used for legal defense costs, fines, or repayment of personal loans. It also has this provision that allows the legislature to amend the rules about how public financing works, like the mechanics and eligibility requirements without needing to go back to the ballot and ask voters to approve it again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Does this mean that automatically there will be a pool of money for political candidates to pull from?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>No, it’s basically just allowing governments to create programs and they will have, you know, specific eligibility requirements that they’ll have to decide for themselves, like raising a certain amount of small dollar donations or not accepting PAC money or capping how many personal funds they donate to their campaigns.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>But I understand that there are some cities that have already been providing public funding for campaigns. Is that true? And if so, like how?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so there’s an exception in Prop 73 for charter cities, which have their own constitution and that gives the state less authority over them. A lot of the biggest cities in California are charter cities like Los Angeles and San Francisco, Oakland, Berkeley. And so they already have public financing programs. Supporters of this initiative point to the success of candidates like Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karen Bass: \u003c/strong>Thanks to L.A.’s Supermatch program, every qualified donation from Los Angeles residents is matched 6-1 by the city.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Or New York City Mayor Zohran Mamdani who accessed public finance systems and won their elections.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Us through how one of these programs works so we can kind of get a sense for it. Let’s take a look at San Francisco, for example.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>There are a lot of hurdles a candidate has to pass to qualify for the money. So a candidate for mayor in San Francisco can receive up to $1.2 million in public funds. There are minimum qualifying contributions. So you have to show you have support from actual voters. You need to be opposed by a candidate who raises or spends at least $50,000. You have to agree to a spending limit of roughly $1,500,000 and agree to limits on how much. You donate to your own campaign. And then it’s a match program in San Francisco. That’s a lot, but essentially there are many rules and you need to prove you’re a serious candidate. And the program can’t favor candidates in one party over the other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Is that how all the programs in California would look if Proposition 4 passes? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>No, there’s a lot of different ways a state or local government could set up a program like this. Like in Seattle, Washington, they have democracy vouchers, giving residents $100. They get to decide which candidates to distribute that money to. And that’s supposed to encourage candidates to engage with the people they hope to represent instead of appealing to special interests.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>While we pause for a quick break, won’t you consider becoming a member of KQED? Donate whatever works for your budget at donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. One-time gifts, ongoing donations, we are here for it all. Thanks! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back talking about proposition four, the public funding for campaigns prop with KQED’s Izzy Bloom. Izzy, who is supporting this measure and why?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>This measure is supported by the California Democratic Party, California Common Cause, the League of Women Voters of California, California Clean Money Campaign. Jenny Farrell, the executive director of the League for Women Voters of California said this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenny Farrell: \u003c/strong>Public financing can make it possible for someone who is deeply connected to their community, but doesn’t have a Rolodex full of wealthy donors to run a viable campaign. Before public financing, women made up a minority of Los Angeles City Council. Once Los Angeles put public financing in place, 14 or 15 of the members were elected using matching funds, and a majority of members now are women, a majority members are people of color. And it’s the most diverse city council in the city’s history.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Who is opposing this measure and why? Anti-tax groups like the California Taxpayers Association, the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers’ Association, as well as the PAC Reform California run by Republican Assemblymember Carl DeMaio, a former chair of the Fair Political Practices Commission, Dan Schnurr, and they all argue that the measure is written too broadly. It leaves each government to set its own eligibility criteria and spending limits, and that makes the system vulnerable to abuse. David Kline is spokesperson for the California Taxpayers Association, and he thinks taxpayer dollars shouldn’t be used for campaigns.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Kline: \u003c/strong>The whole idea on its face is bad. Tax dollars should be used to help the taxpayers, to help constituents by promoting reasonable, efficient government services. Not to give money to a candidate to then put out a hit piece mailer on an opponent, and not to flood our mailboxes with even more junk mail from campaigns every election season.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Also, candidates already have to file campaign finance reports disclosing contributions and expenditures, which Kline says creates a lot of transparency around where big money is putting their influence and voters can decide for themselves whether they support that or not. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What does spending look like on this spending prop? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Not much spending on this initiative, just $7,500 in opposition from Reform California. As for the cost to the state, the Nonpartisan Legislative Analyst’s Office estimates it could cost the state a few hundred thousand dollars a year just to cover the additional hours and staffing for the Fair Political Practices Commission to answer state and local government’s questions about the programs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Reporter Izzy Bloom from KQED’s Politics Desk, thank you for walking us through this one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Izzy Bloom: \u003c/strong>Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 4 means you want to remove the ban on public funding for election campaigns, opening the door for state or local governments to create new programs. A vote no means you wanna keep the ban in place.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s all for our episode on Prop Four. Also in your podcast feed today is our show on Prop Five, which takes on statewide recalls. And we’ll be back with even more tomorrow.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>PropFest is a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It’s produced by Erica Cruz Guevarra, Alan Montecillo, Gabriella Glueck,Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme and me, Olivia Allen Price. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from Katie Springer, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey, and everyone on Team KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Some members of the KQD podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen Price. And I’m Erika Cruz-Gavarra. Talk to you next time.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "how-the-church-of-satan-was-born-in-san-francisco",
"title": "How the Church of Satan Was Born in San Francisco",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was first published October 20, 2023. We’re bringing it back for spooky season.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Bay Area has long been associated with countercultural movements — whether it was the Beats of the 1950s, the hippies of the 1960s or the Black Panthers of the 1970s. But often overlooked in that long tradition of local subcultures is the emergence of America’s first official satanic church, which was founded right here in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>From its beginnings in a black Victorian house in the Richmond District, to its rapid growth that may have helped kick off a wave of “satanic panic” across the country, the story of the Church of Satan is filled with lust, intrigue and a fair amount of theatrics.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>A born showman\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>You can’t describe the \u003ca href=\"https://www.churchofsatan.com/\">Church of Satan\u003c/a> without talking about the man who was its founder and central figure for decades, and who even posthumously is probably still the most iconic Satanist. Anton Szandor LaVey was born Howard Stanton Levey in Chicago in 1930. His family moved to the Bay Area when he was still a child, and he \u003ca href=\"https://web.archive.org/web/20120314024245/http://www.pacificsun.com/story.php?story_id=2313\">supposedly attended Tamalpais High School\u003c/a> in Mill Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>From a young age, LaVey had an interest in magic, the supernatural, and the idea of trickery. In a 1993 documentary about him called “\u003ca href=\"https://mubi.com/en/us/films/speak-of-the-devil\">Speak of the Devil\u003c/a>,” LaVey describes how fascinated he was as a little kid when a friend showed him a copy of the Johnson and Smith Company’s \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_Smith_Company\">novelty catalog\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[It was] filled with all of these jokes, tricks, and books on forbidden subjects,” LaVey said. “It had all the most horrid examples of man’s inhumanity to man, all of course presented in the form of good fun and entertainment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey got his own copy of the catalog, and ordered several novelty trick toys from it, including a ‘recorder box’ that would stab a sharp needle into the finger of an unsuspecting victim when a button was pushed. LaVey said he felt the trick was too mean to play on his own friends, but he didn’t feel bad about handing the toy over to a bully. That distinction was perhaps a precursor to the later development of his satanic philosophy, which advocates for bestowing kindness on those who deserve it, but seeking revenge on those who wrong you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That curious nature led LaVey to pursue somewhat unusual jobs. He claimed to have joined the circus at 16, where he said he’d worked with the big cats as a “cage boy.” Likewise, he said he’d done stints as a psychic investigator, paranormal researcher, and hypnotist. He also claimed to have briefly been a crime scene photographer for the SFPD, although there are no official records to back that up.[pullquote align=\"right\" size=\"medium\" citation=\"Anton Szandor LaVey, founder of the Church of Satan\"]‘All religions are based on abstinence instead of indulgence. All religions therefore have to be based on fear. Well, we don’t feel that fear is necessary to base a religion on.’[/pullquote]Some have suggested that LaVey may have embellished some details of his early life, but \u003ca href=\"https://www.churchofsatan.com/history-anton-szandor-lavey/\">The Church of Satan, on its site, contends it has evidence\u003c/a> to support his claims.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey is also known to have worked as an organist and musician and performed at clubs around San Francisco beginning in the late 1940s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By the early 1950s, he was already cultivating the kind of dark aesthetic and occult interests that would lead him to found his church. In 1956, he purchased a Victorian house at 6114 California Street, a few blocks from the edge of the Presidio near the center of San Francisco’s Richmond neighborhood, and painted it black. The house had a brick staircase leading up to the front door, with a parlor and a bar downstairs. The room that would become the primary ritual chamber contained a large mantle piece, one that would be featured prominently in future ceremonies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Church of Satan sort of grew out of what he called the Magic Circle,” said Blanche Barton, who is the current \u003ca href=\"https://www.churchofsatan.com/history-blanche-barton/\">Magistra Templi Rex\u003c/a> — a ranking member — of the Church of Satan, and one of \u003ca href=\"https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Life-Satanist-Authorized-Biography/dp/1627310029/churchofsatan\">LaVey’s biographers\u003c/a> and a former lover, with whom he had his only son: Satan Xerxes Carnacki LaVey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Barton says LaVey surrounded himself with friends who shared similar interests. “They were all intrigued by the weird and the unexplained. They started having soirées and that sort of led into ritualizing to see, practically, what happens or if anything happens,” she said. “[LaVey] started presenting seminars on the various topics that he was interested in, from vampires to cannibalism — everything weird and wonderful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11964952\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11964952 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-800x535.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white close up image of a man wearing a hooded cloak with devil horns. He is holding the point of a sword in front of his face. He casts a shadow onto the wall behind him, which features a large pentagram.\" width=\"800\" height=\"535\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-800x535.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-1020x683.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-1536x1028.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-2048x1370.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-1920x1285.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\" />\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Anton LaVey poses in his Black House in 1967. \u003ccite>(Bettmann/Getty)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>‘First year of the reign of Satan’\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the spring of 1966, the Church of Satan was officially launched and its congregation was comprised of a handful of people in LaVey’s inner circle. They gathered in his home — which was by then known as “The Black House” — on the night of April 30 to celebrate Walpurgisnacht, a German holiday with pagan origins that’s sometimes called the “night of the witches.” The holiday is, ironically, on the eve of the Christian feast day of Saint Walpurga, which commemorates the saint who is believed to offer protection from witchcraft.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey ritualistically shaved his head in the tradition of medieval executioners and dark magicians and declared 1966 to be the “first year of the reign of Satan.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To attract followers to the church outside of his exclusive group of like-minded parishioners, LaVey quickly began spreading word of his satanic philosophy through public speaking engagements and by inviting reporters — and whoever else had interest — into his Black House to witness satanic rituals and masses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The rituals themselves were a highly theatrical affair, akin to performance art, featuring satanic iconography and moody organ music. LaVey would wear a hooded cloak with devil horns and a pentagram medallion while invoking the many names of the devil. He’d often wield a sword or sometimes a large snake while a nude woman was draped over an altar in the house’s ritual chamber.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Blanche Barton says the aesthetics of Satanism were rooted in LaVey’s artistic nature: He was a painter, sculptor and musician, who just happened to have a penchant for dark things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Examples of the early rituals he led can be seen in the 1970 documentary, “\u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/satanis-the-devils-mass-1970\">Satanis: The Devil’s Mass,\u003c/a>” which chronicles the early years of the church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the most amusing parts of the film, almost endearing, is when they go out and talk to the neighbors,” Barton said. “And it’s pretty funny. You know, they say that they see the nude people dancing around in the front. And they saw the lion … eating something! Really quite devilish and intriguing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11964956\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11964956\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621-800x759.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white image of a man with dark curly hair and a goatee seated cross legged on the floor of a room. In front of him is a lion cub, which looks at the camera.\" width=\"800\" height=\"759\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621-800x759.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621-1020x967.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621-160x152.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621-1536x1457.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\" />\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Anton LaVey, founder and self-proclaimed high priest of the Church of Satan, is photographed at home in San Francisco with his pet lion on June 26, 1964. \u003ccite>(Art Frisch/The San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>That’s right — LaVey actually owned a 500-pound pet lion named Togare, who he’d raised from a cub, and who lived with him in the Black House and slept in his bedroom at night. In the late 1960s, when his neighbors successfully petitioned to have the lion removed, Lavey ended up giving his oversized pet to actress Tippi Hedren, who starred in “The Birds,” and had founded (and apparently still lives on) \u003ca href=\"https://www.shambala.org/about.htm\">a big cat sanctuary\u003c/a> in Southern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey soon became a well-known personality throughout California and increasingly nationwide, largely supporting himself by collecting church initiation fees and doing paid public speaking engagements. He was frequently interviewed in print publications and on TV, including on \u003cem>The Tonight Show\u003c/em>. Even people who seemed to despise his ideology wanted to talk to him — as is evident in this interview with antagonistic talk show host Joe Pyne:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/Kqb54soKU8M?si=mX0JQztCFy7tjOj2\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A wide variety of people were drawn to LaVey’s dark charm and hedonistic philosophy that promoted a guilt-free, indulgent lifestyle. The church is rumored to have drawn in several notable celebrities in its early years, including Sammy Davis Jr. and Liberace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey also \u003ca href=\"https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4718112/Hollywood-Satanist-Bizarre-Jayne-Mansfield-Anton-LaVey.html\">developed a friendship\u003c/a> with blonde bombshell Jayne Mansfield, an actress, nightclub entertainer and Playboy playmate, and the mother of Law and Order: Special Victims Unit star Mariska Hargitay. There was even speculation that Mansfield’s death in 1967, a year after meeting LaVey, was the result of a curse he is believed to have placed on the driver of the car.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not surprisingly, LaVey openly courted controversy. In 1967, he \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/SFGate/videos/anton-lavey-oversees-a-satanic-wedding-ceremony-in-san-francisco/10156878589425594/\">publicized and officiated a satanic wedding\u003c/a> between a New York socialite and a journalist. He also performed satanic funerals for servicemen in the Bay Area, at the request of their families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By the time he started the church, LaVey had divorced his first wife and became involved with another woman, with whom he had a daughter, his second child. In 1967, he baptized the 3-year-old girl into the church, dedicating her to Satan as she sat in a hooded robe next to the nude altar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11964962\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11964962\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-800x923.jpg\" alt=\"A man in a hooded devil costume kneels in front of a large brick fireplace. A blonde woman kneels to his right. They are both reaching up towards a small girl wearing a hooded robe, who sits on the edge of the mantle, over which is draped a nude woman. A large pentagram featuring the head of Baphomet is painted on the wall behind them.\" width=\"800\" height=\"923\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-800x923.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-1020x1176.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-160x185.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-1332x1536.jpg 1332w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-1776x2048.jpg 1776w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\" />\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Anton Szandor LaVey, the leader of the First Church of Satan, taps his gum-chewing 3-year-old daughter, Zeena Galatea LaVey, on the head with a sword during “baptism ceremonies” in San Francisco on May 23, 1967. A naked woman reclines on the altar during the anti-religious ceremony. \u003ccite>(Bettmann/Getty)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The Satanic Bible\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1969, LaVey published \u003ca href=\"https://www.harvard.com/book/the_satanic_bible/\">The Satanic Bible\u003c/a>, outlining his philosophy and detailing the official tenets of his church. At the core are \u003ca href=\"https://www.churchofsatan.com/nine-satanic-statements/\">the 9 Satanic Statements\u003c/a>, the last of which is: “Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here LaVey refers to the Christian Church, which he said he found hypocritical for its denial of human nature. “No religion had ever been based on man’s carnal needs or his fleshly pursuits,” he said, in a 1970 interview. “All religions are based on abstinence instead of indulgence. All religions therefore have to be based on fear. Well, we don’t feel that fear is necessary to base a religion on.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The word Satan means adversary, he explained. “I’m supplying a much-needed opposition.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Most of the nine statements begin with “Satan represents…” Many people incorrectly assume that Satanists worship the devil. In fact, the Church of Satan’s official position is that the devil doesn’t exist at all. It’s an atheistic religion — really more like a philosophy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What the Satanic Bible tries to advocate is independent study, not worship,” Blanche Barton, his biographer and former lover, said. “There is no dogma.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey’s philosophy grew in popularity throughout the 1970s. But even as the church continued to openly insist that it didn’t worship or believe in the devil, a centuries-old fear inevitably came bubbling to the surface.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The satanic panic\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Beginning in the 1980s, and lasting through the 1990s, LaVey’s church spurred a national wave of fear and conspiracy theories around “satanic cults,” resulting in over 12,000 unsubstantiated claims of satanic ritual abuse and crimes, many centered around children, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/31/us/satanic-panic.html\">according to the New York Times\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A series of high-profile court cases drew national headlines during this period of “satanic panic.” One notorious case in the early 1980s — the \u003ca href=\"https://famous-trials.com/mcmartin/902-home\">McMartin Preschool trial\u003c/a> in Manhattan Beach in Southern California — originated from a mother’s claim that her son had been sexually abused by his preschool, which she accused of being run by Satanists.[pullquote align=\"right\" size=\"medium\" citation=\"Blanche Barton, LaVey's biographer (and former lover)\"]‘What the Satanic Bible tries to advocate is independent study, not worship. There is no dogma.’[/pullquote]That incited a set of increasingly bizarre claims of satanic child abuse and led to hundreds of children being interrogated by state investigators over allegations that they had been forced to do things like drink the blood of sacrificed animals or dig up graves. The mother who made the initial claim was later found to be prone to schizophrenic delusions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tapes of the children’s interviews were reviewed by a clinical psychologist who said they were coercive and extremely suggestive, leading children to give the answers the interviewers wanted to hear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Two separate trials over the course of seven years resulted in no convictions. And at a cost of $15 million, it became the most expensive criminal trial in U.S. history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Other similar cases resulted in actual convictions, a large number of them in the state of Texas. Most, however, were ultimately \u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/08/24/accused-of-satanism-they-spent-21-years-in-prison-they-were-just-declared-innocent-and-were-paid-millions/\">overturned\u003c/a> due to lack of evidence, sometimes \u003ca href=\"https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2022/10/26/how-satanic-panic-led-a-10-year-old-son-to-falsely-accuse-his-father/\">decades later\u003c/a> after the convicted parties had served \u003ca href=\"https://www.tpr.org/criminal-justice/2023-04-11/after-30-years-a-father-is-exonerated-in-satanic-panic-case\">years in prison\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Accusations weren’t lobbed directly at the Church of Satan, but the group was sometimes cited by police as having an influence on the spread of the ideology — as is the case in this \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/LawEnforcementGuideToSatanicCults1994VHSOccultHilarity\">police training video\u003c/a>. Filmed in San Francisco in the early 1990s, the video includes stereotypical claims about crimes Satanists might commit, from cannibalism and necrophilia to corpse theft and black market baby sales — despite any evidence of the church ever doing or condoning such things.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The Fate of the Black House\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Blanche Barton moved to San Francisco in 1984 at the age of 22 and became romantically involved with LaVey that same year. Five years later, Barton moved into the Black House with LaVey, who sold it to pay off debts, but continued renting it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Barton says, like so many other San Francisco Victorians, the house itself had a long and interesting history dating back to its construction in 1887.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It had trapdoors and it had been used as a [brothel] and a speakeasy,” she said, “It had a bar downstairs. It had secret passageways.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11964959\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11964959\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291-800x532.jpg\" alt=\"A mean in a hooded devil costume and cloak emerges from a secret passage way in the fireplace of a a room in his house. There are bookshelves above hi, and a human skeleton mounted in a large display case on the wall to the right.\" width=\"800\" height=\"532\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291-800x532.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291-1020x678.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291-1536x1022.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\" />\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Anton LaVey, founder of the Church of Satan, rises out from a hidden corridor behind a false fireplace in his study in 1967. \u003ccite>(Bettmann/Getty)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>LaVey died from heart disease on Oct. 29, 1997, at the age of 67, although according to an \u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1997/11/09/anton-s-lavey-dies-at-67/c546b323-acb9-463e-ad96-7da298f9e4d8/\">obituary in \u003cem>The Washington Post\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, his death certificate listed him as dying several days later, on Halloween. He left behind three children, all from different women.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leadership of the church was eventually turned over to longtime church member Peter Gilmore, who still serves as its high priest. The church’s headquarters have since been moved to New York state, where Gilmore and his partner Peggy Nadramia built a new “Black House.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Barton said she and a group of followers attempted to raise money to buy LaVey’s house back so that it could be preserved as a museum, but those efforts ultimately failed, and the house was eventually sold and torn down in 2001.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was so much a part of his soul,” said Barton, “And as he said, ‘The roots went all the way to hell.’ So he was able to be there until the last, which was great.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What now stands in its place is a rather normal-looking beige apartment building, devoid of any signs that it was once the site of a satanic sanctuary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>If you visited San Francisco’s Richmond District before 2001, and made your way to 6114 California Street, you would have found yourself facing a tall Victorian house that was entirely \u003ci>black.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>An attention grabbing paint scheme for sure. But it’s what happened inside The Black House that truly intrigued curious San Francsicans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was the first headquarters of the Church of Satan … and the personal home of its founder Anton LaVey. His theatrical nature, and controversial beliefs, turned him into a kind of celebrity… here he is in an interview in 1970…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Pyne:\u003c/b> Who ordained you a atanic priest?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey:\u003c/b> I would say, probably, I received the call. Just as any fundamentalist—\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne:\u003c/b> Well most of us do, but we fight it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> Why fight it? This is, of course, the whole principle of my religion. All—\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne:\u003c/b> What do you mean you received the call? You mean one day the devil said “Go out, Anton Szandor LaVey, and give people hell!” [audience laughs]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> That’s about it. That’s about it. Because people like to have a hell of a time, don’t they?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Spooky music]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">OAP: This is Bay Curious, I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Should I say it? I have to say it. Spooky season is here… and if you’ve been listening to the show for a while you know we love to bring you stories with a certain vibe around this time of year. Today, we are dusting off an episode from 2023 that explores what was going on inside that Black House. And who, really, was Anton LaVey? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr />\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[spooky laugh]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b> We sent producer Amanda Font to make a deal with the devil…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>The Bay Area is often associated with countercultural movements. You had the beat poets of the 1950s getting arrested for protesting censorship, the free-loving hippies of the 1960s dropping acid in the park, and the Black Panthers in the 1970s fighting back against institutional racism. What you don’t often hear about alongside those other cultural phenomena is that the late 1960s in San Francisco also gave rise to the notorious, indulgent, and wickedly provocative Church of Satan. [\u003ci>demonic vocal effect on “Church of Satan”]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>In this case, when we use the word “church,” it might not be exactly what you’re picturing. They do describe themselves as a religious organization, but there aren’t a lot of physical church buildings associated with Satanism. It’s more like an organization of like-minded people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For decades, the black heart of the church, and perhaps still the most recognizable Satanist, was its founder Anton Szandor LaVey. He was born Howard Stanton Levey in Chicago in 1930, and later his family moved to the Bay Area. From a young age, he had a fascination with the supernatural, magic and the idea of trickery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey [archival]: \u003c/b>When I was about 5 years old, I had a friend that had a catalog from the Johnson and Smith company, filled with all of these jokes, tricks, and books on forbidden subjects.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>This is a clip of LaVey from a 1993 documentary about him called “Speak of the Devil.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey [archival]:\u003c/b> It had all the most horrid examples of man’s inhumanity to man, all of course presented in the form of good fun and entertainment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Like a toy “recorder box,” that, when you pushed a button, would stab a sharp needle into the finger of an unsuspecting victim. LaVey recalls he didn’t want to play such a mean trick on his friends… but he didn’t mind if it was a kid who was a bully. A similar thought came into play later, when he developed his satanic philosophy. It’s big on the idea of being kind to those who deserve it, but seeking revenge on those who wrong you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As he got older, LaVey’s curious nature led him to pursue somewhat unusual jobs. In his early life, he claimed to have worked in a circus with big cats, as a psychic investigator, an organist, a hypnotist, and to have been a police photographer for the SFPD (although there are no official records to back that last one.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1956, a decade before he officially created the Church of Satan, he was already cultivating the kind of dark aesthetic that people would come to know him for. LaVey bought the Victorian house at 6114 California Street and painted it black.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> And as he said, the roots went all The way to hell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b> This is Blanche Barton…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> I am the current Magistra Templi Rex of the Church of Satan. I’ve been a member of the organization. Wow, almost 50 years now. And I was a high priestess for a time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>She also was Anton LaVey’s romantic partner for 13 years, and they had a child together. Blanche, or Magistra Barton has written two books about the Church of Satan, including a biography of Anton LaVey called “The Secret Life of a Satanist,” and “The Church of Satan: A History of the World’s Most Notorious Religion.” Blanche says even before the house became a satanic sanctuary, like so many old San Francisco Victorians, the house itself had an interesting history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> It was Built in 1887, as far as the stories go, by a Scottish sea captain. And there were timbers in the lower levels that had come to San Francisco During the gold rush, and it had trapdoors and it had been used as a whorehouse and a speakeasy. It had a bar downstairs. It had secret passageways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>When he purchased the house in ‘56, LaVey lived there with his first wife and their young daughter, Karla. And as his interests in the supernatural deepened, he surrounded himself with a group of friends who were curious about the same things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton: \u003c/b>The Church of Satan, sort of grew out of what he called the Magic Circle. They were all intrigued by the weird and the unexplained. They started sort of having soirees and that sort of led into ritualizing, to see, practically, what happens or if anything happens. He started presenting seminars on the various topics that he was interested in from, vampires to cannibalism. Everything weird and wonderful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[spooky music]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b> And in 1966, the people in that magic circle became the first members of the Church of Satan… picture it… a dark night, April 30th, Walpurgisnacht — a German holiday with Pagan origins, sometimes called “The night of the witches.” On that night Anton LaVey ritualistically shaved his head in the tradition of medieval executioners and dark magicians, adopting the look he’d have for the rest of his life, and declared 1966 to be the first year of the reign of Satan, thus founding America’s first official Satanic church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And from there, it became a kind of hit…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[swinging music]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey claimed that the church had hundreds of members in San Francisco and thousands throughout the world. He was a natural showman, with his shiny polished bald head, black goatee, and intense eyes. He wore all black, a long cloak, large rings, a pentagram medallion, and would make appearances wearing a hooded devil costume with little horns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He had a 500-pound pet lion named Togare who he’d raised from a cub, that slept in his bedroom at night. He invited reporters and the public inside the Black House to attend Satanic Mass…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Archival recording of Satanic Mass]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>…Where he’d invoke the devil while wielding a large sword or sometimes a boa constrictor while a nude woman was draped across the altar in the ritual chamber. He even married people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News clip of LaVey marrying couple:\u003c/b> “Former New York socialite Judith Chase and John Raymond were joined in unholy wedlock before a live altar, a nude redhead. Self-ordained sorcerer/minister Anton Levey presided at the San Francisco ceremony.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>The media absolutely ate it up. They started calling him the Black Pope.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News clip of LaVey marrying couple:\u003c/b> “As the worst man looks on, the blessings of Lucifer and Beelzebub are invoked. The elaborate rite smacked of publicity, because next day the bride and groom secured a conventional wedding license”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>LaVey was charismatic and people seemed to gravitate to him. He became a kind of overnight celebrity. He was interviewed on national television, in magazines, people across the country were seeing his face. Even people who seemed to \u003ci>hate\u003c/i> him wanted to interview him… Like talk show host Joe Pyne…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne:\u003c/b> Are you married?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> Oh yes\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne:\u003c/b> You have any little devils?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> Oh yes. I have two.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb> Pyne: \u003c/b>Are you gonna raise them as satanic kids?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> Certainly, but not to go around chopping people up as sacrificing human beings just to—\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne: \u003c/b> That would be the greatest reward of all. If your kids some night would creep in and set fire to you and your lion, then dance around with pitchforks saying “Hey look at daddy, look at daddy!” (audience laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>But it seemed like all kinds of people were at least curious about the church. At one time, Sammy Davis Jr. and Liberace were linked to the Church of Satan. In 1966 the actress Jayne Mansfield met LaVey at a film festival in San Francisco and they began an unlikely friendship. There are numerous photos of them together, even performing a ritual at Mansfield’s home, though Mansfield said she was a Catholic and simply found LaVey intriguing. Some people blame her untimely death in a car crash a year later on an alleged curse LaVey put on the driver of the car… but who’s to say?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When we return, more controversy for Anton LeVey and the Satanic Panic… stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Anton LeVey was no stranger to bad press. The media was infatuated with his dark styling and outlandish comments … and LeVey seemed to relish the attention. Here’s Amanda Font again…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Famously, in 1967 he baptized his then 3-year-old daughter Zeena into the church, dedicating her to Satan while her mother, LaVey’s 2nd partner Diane Hegarty, looked on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival clip of LaVey baptizing Zeena: \u003c/b>In the name of our great god, Satan Lucifer, I command thee to come forth an bestow these blessings upon us…(fades down and LaVey continues)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>So how much of LaVey’s highly theatrical image was serious? Well, while much of the ritualizing was akin to performance art, he was sincere in his philosophy. LaVey published “The Satanic Bible,” which by now has sold over a million copies, outlining his beliefs. The number one sin in Satanism is stupidity or willful ignorance. Herd conformity is also up there. He founded the Church of Satan as an alternative to what he saw as the repression of many other mainstream religions. Denying human nature, he said, was the real sin. Indulgence is key.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey [archival]:\u003c/b> No religion had ever been based on man’s carnal needs or his fleshly pursuits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>This is a clip of LaVey from a documentary filmed in those first few years of the church called “Satanis: The Devil’s Mass”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey [archival]:\u003c/b> All religions are based on abstinence instead of indulgence. All religions therefore have to be based on fear. Well, we don’t feel that fear is necessary to base a religion on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Not everyone was a fan, of course. He was telling people to embrace their animal nature… give in to their dark and lustful desires. Christian groups were appalled, obviously, and what about the neighbors? Here’s Blanche Barton again…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> One of the most amusing parts of the film, almost endearing, is when they go out and talk to the neighbors. And it’s pretty funny. You know, they say that they see the nude people dancing around in the front. And they saw the lion — eating something! Really quite, quite devilish and intriguing. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from ‘Satanis: The Devil’s Mass]\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neighbor 1:\u003c/b> He’s been in the neighborhood about 14 years and I always knew him as Tony. Just a nice ordinary — well — a little more dramatic than most men in the neighborhood, perhaps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neighbor 2:\u003c/b> Actually I don’t know what kind of man he is. As soon as you meet him, you think he’s a very very nice man, you know. I just had a feeling I can trust him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neighbor 3:\u003c/b> (grumbling) A very undesirable type of a neighbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Neighbors successfully petitioned to have LaVey’s pet lion relocated in the late 60s. He first landed in a zoo, then ended up at a big cat sanctuary in Southern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for the goings on at the church, the nude rituals, wild events, blaspheming…well, freedom of religion! They weren’t doing anything illegal. Still, by the 70s, LaVey had stopped inviting the press in for all the rituals, instead focusing more on cultivating new members. He was living in a world of his own aesthetic making, which is a primary tenet of his satanic philosophy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> Anton Levey was first and foremost an artist. He felt that aesthetics, whatever you are most drawn to, is what you should use. If you’re really excited about Frankenstein or if you are very drawn to technology. Because what you do in the ritual chamber is you’re evoking your emotions. Nothing comes from outside. It’s not coming from Satan or demons or anything. But we know the power that Humans have for creating a world and a life for yourself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>LaVey was making a living through the church, taking speaking engagements and charging initiation fees for new members. He also sometimes worked as an organist at local clubs. He spent more of his time making art, and music, another passion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton: \u003c/b>He got the most joy out of playing. Keyboards because he could control the entire orchestra.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Clip of Anton LaVey playing keyboards]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>He even pressed a record. Much of it includes recordings of early satanic masses, but also just, you know, some songs…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Anton LaVey singing a song called ‘Honolulu Baby’]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton: \u003c/b>His specific aesthetics were very much in the forties. A lot of the precepts of Satanism that he developed are very much, sort of, grounded in his creative self.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Anton LaVey singing, music fades out]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> And then in the Eighties, there was the Satanic Panic going on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b> In the 1980s and through the 90s there was a national wave of fear that “Satanic Cults” were taking over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clip from training video: \u003c/b>Anton LaVey, perhaps the best-known Satanist in America compiled his years of cult knowledge into two books: the Satanic Bible, and the Satanic Rituals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>This is from an hourlong police training video from 1993, filmed in San Francisco, that was created to teach law enforcement how to spot satanic symbols and investigate “satanic crimes.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clip from training video:\u003c/b> Now remember, not all satanic people commit crimes. Some of their activities may be perfectly legal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>It has all the highly stereotypical suggestions about what kinds of \u003ci>illegal\u003c/i> activities Satanists might engage in….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clip from training video: \u003c/b>Murder, which might include human sacrifice, or mass murders or cannibalism…(fade under)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Some of them, frankly, are pretty macabre.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clip from training video:\u003c/b> Corpse theft, cemetery vandalism, black market sales of bones and skulls, black market baby selling…(fade under)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Dramatic music]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>To be clear, these things weren’t happening. It’s kind of funny now, especially set to\u003ci> that \u003c/i>music, but at that time the fear that these things \u003ci>were actually\u003c/i> happening was intense. Through the 80s and 90s upwards of 10-thousand unsubstantiated claims of ritualistic abuse by supposed satanic cults were made, though not directly against the Church of Satan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was happening in California, and all over the United States. It was like the witch trials all over again. There were numerous high-profile cases where people were convicted of satanic crimes, only to be exonerated after serving years, sometimes decades, in prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> But at the same time, there was a real excitement. From younger people who were. Sort of discovering Satanism because of the satanic. Panic. You know, people were jumping up and down and. Saying, “Oh, this is so evil, this is so. Bad.” And yet they would. Publish the satanic statements and the young kids would say, Well, that seems pretty sensible. To me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Because, here’s the thing a lot of people get wrong about The Church of Satan. Satanists don’t worship the devil. They don’t drink blood, sacrifice babies or animals. They don’t even believe in the literal devil. They’re atheists. Satanism is more of a philosophy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton: \u003c/b>What the Satanic Bible tries to advocate is independent study, not worship. There is no dogma. You know, we honor animals. We honor children. It’s against self-deceit, kindness to those who deserve it rather than love wasted on ingrates. And the last one, of course, people get a chuckle out of because we say, we recognize that Satan is the best friend that the church has ever had…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey [archival]:\u003c/b> The devil is the guy that’s kept the church in business for many many years. Without him, and the concept of evil, where would the church be?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b> Using a satanic adversary to represent an ideology of personal freedom and indulging without guilt… Blanche says it’s really more of a style choice. That’s what drew her in…She wanted to embrace her dark and sensual side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> I was looking for a philosophy that really represented women and a freedom for women and their lust. And their desires and their habits and their beauty and their wisdom. And I felt that most organized religions just did not have a voice for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Blanche had been following the Church of Satan through her teenage years and early 20s in Southern California, even coming to San Francisco to meet Anton LaVey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> From our first meeting we felt a draw to each other. And from that time we spent a lot of time on the phone and corresponding back and forth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Less than a year later in 1984, just after graduating college, she moves to San Francisco at the age of 22. Shortly thereafter they became romantically involved. Blanche moved into the Black House in 1989.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton: \u003c/b>We had a wonderful life together. It had a rhythm. Of course, he was very nocturnal. So a lot of times we would get up at four or five in the evening and meet people. Play music, converse, maybe watch a Movie And then we would go to sleep around dawn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Rituals were no longer public, but occasional private events. LaVey wasn’t willing to present the Church of Satan as just a curiosity anymore. In 1993, Blanche gave birth to their son, his third child, Satan Xerxes. At that point, LaVey was 63 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MUSIC\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Pyne:\u003c/b> So is it necessary to drive a stake through your heart to kill you, or would an ordinary knock on the head do it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> I will never die.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne:\u003c/b> You won’t?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> No, of course not. I’ve made arrangements. (audience ooohs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Anton LaVey died from heart disease at St. Mary’s in San Francisco on October 29th, 1997. Although his official death certificate lists his expiration date as Halloween.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So what happens when the core of the Church of Satan, the man who was its central flame, gets snuffed out?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Well, Blanche served as high priestess, the top leadership position, for a few years, before stepping down and handing the reins over to longtime member Peter Gilmore, who is still its high priest. The church left San Francisco and now has a new ‘Black House’ in New York state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey’s oldest daughter, Karla, was also high-priestess for a time but left the Church of Satan to start her own “First Satanic Church” in San Francisco. It’s a lot more exclusive and is known for throwing a great Black X-Mass concert in the city every year for the last couple decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Zeena, who was dedicated to Satan as a toddler, left Satanism entirely and became a Tantric Buddhist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His son, Satan Xerxes, isn’t involved at all and lives a private life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for the infamous Black House…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> It was an amazing house and it should have been preserved. And we did try.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>LaVey had been forced to sell the house to a friend in the early 90s though he was allowed to live there until his death. But the house was in disrepair, and the land was just too valuable. When efforts to find a preservation group willing to take it on failed, the property was sold and torn down in 2001.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What stands there now is a very normal-looking apartment building. No lingering signs that it was once a raucous den of sin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was Bay Curious producer Amanda Font.\u003cbr />\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr />\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This episode was produced by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Brendan Willard, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Katrina Schwartz, Anna Casalme, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and the whole KQED family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was first published October 20, 2023. We’re bringing it back for spooky season.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Bay Area has long been associated with countercultural movements — whether it was the Beats of the 1950s, the hippies of the 1960s or the Black Panthers of the 1970s. But often overlooked in that long tradition of local subcultures is the emergence of America’s first official satanic church, which was founded right here in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>From its beginnings in a black Victorian house in the Richmond District, to its rapid growth that may have helped kick off a wave of “satanic panic” across the country, the story of the Church of Satan is filled with lust, intrigue and a fair amount of theatrics.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>A born showman\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>You can’t describe the \u003ca href=\"https://www.churchofsatan.com/\">Church of Satan\u003c/a> without talking about the man who was its founder and central figure for decades, and who even posthumously is probably still the most iconic Satanist. Anton Szandor LaVey was born Howard Stanton Levey in Chicago in 1930. His family moved to the Bay Area when he was still a child, and he \u003ca href=\"https://web.archive.org/web/20120314024245/http://www.pacificsun.com/story.php?story_id=2313\">supposedly attended Tamalpais High School\u003c/a> in Mill Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>From a young age, LaVey had an interest in magic, the supernatural, and the idea of trickery. In a 1993 documentary about him called “\u003ca href=\"https://mubi.com/en/us/films/speak-of-the-devil\">Speak of the Devil\u003c/a>,” LaVey describes how fascinated he was as a little kid when a friend showed him a copy of the Johnson and Smith Company’s \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_Smith_Company\">novelty catalog\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[It was] filled with all of these jokes, tricks, and books on forbidden subjects,” LaVey said. “It had all the most horrid examples of man’s inhumanity to man, all of course presented in the form of good fun and entertainment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey got his own copy of the catalog, and ordered several novelty trick toys from it, including a ‘recorder box’ that would stab a sharp needle into the finger of an unsuspecting victim when a button was pushed. LaVey said he felt the trick was too mean to play on his own friends, but he didn’t feel bad about handing the toy over to a bully. That distinction was perhaps a precursor to the later development of his satanic philosophy, which advocates for bestowing kindness on those who deserve it, but seeking revenge on those who wrong you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That curious nature led LaVey to pursue somewhat unusual jobs. He claimed to have joined the circus at 16, where he said he’d worked with the big cats as a “cage boy.” Likewise, he said he’d done stints as a psychic investigator, paranormal researcher, and hypnotist. He also claimed to have briefly been a crime scene photographer for the SFPD, although there are no official records to back that up.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "‘All religions are based on abstinence instead of indulgence. All religions therefore have to be based on fear. Well, we don’t feel that fear is necessary to base a religion on.’",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Some have suggested that LaVey may have embellished some details of his early life, but \u003ca href=\"https://www.churchofsatan.com/history-anton-szandor-lavey/\">The Church of Satan, on its site, contends it has evidence\u003c/a> to support his claims.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey is also known to have worked as an organist and musician and performed at clubs around San Francisco beginning in the late 1940s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By the early 1950s, he was already cultivating the kind of dark aesthetic and occult interests that would lead him to found his church. In 1956, he purchased a Victorian house at 6114 California Street, a few blocks from the edge of the Presidio near the center of San Francisco’s Richmond neighborhood, and painted it black. The house had a brick staircase leading up to the front door, with a parlor and a bar downstairs. The room that would become the primary ritual chamber contained a large mantle piece, one that would be featured prominently in future ceremonies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Church of Satan sort of grew out of what he called the Magic Circle,” said Blanche Barton, who is the current \u003ca href=\"https://www.churchofsatan.com/history-blanche-barton/\">Magistra Templi Rex\u003c/a> — a ranking member — of the Church of Satan, and one of \u003ca href=\"https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Life-Satanist-Authorized-Biography/dp/1627310029/churchofsatan\">LaVey’s biographers\u003c/a> and a former lover, with whom he had his only son: Satan Xerxes Carnacki LaVey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Barton says LaVey surrounded himself with friends who shared similar interests. “They were all intrigued by the weird and the unexplained. They started having soirées and that sort of led into ritualizing to see, practically, what happens or if anything happens,” she said. “[LaVey] started presenting seminars on the various topics that he was interested in, from vampires to cannibalism — everything weird and wonderful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11964952\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11964952 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-800x535.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white close up image of a man wearing a hooded cloak with devil horns. He is holding the point of a sword in front of his face. He casts a shadow onto the wall behind him, which features a large pentagram.\" width=\"800\" height=\"535\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-800x535.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-1020x683.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-1536x1028.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-2048x1370.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098328-1920x1285.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\" />\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Anton LaVey poses in his Black House in 1967. \u003ccite>(Bettmann/Getty)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>‘First year of the reign of Satan’\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the spring of 1966, the Church of Satan was officially launched and its congregation was comprised of a handful of people in LaVey’s inner circle. They gathered in his home — which was by then known as “The Black House” — on the night of April 30 to celebrate Walpurgisnacht, a German holiday with pagan origins that’s sometimes called the “night of the witches.” The holiday is, ironically, on the eve of the Christian feast day of Saint Walpurga, which commemorates the saint who is believed to offer protection from witchcraft.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey ritualistically shaved his head in the tradition of medieval executioners and dark magicians and declared 1966 to be the “first year of the reign of Satan.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To attract followers to the church outside of his exclusive group of like-minded parishioners, LaVey quickly began spreading word of his satanic philosophy through public speaking engagements and by inviting reporters — and whoever else had interest — into his Black House to witness satanic rituals and masses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The rituals themselves were a highly theatrical affair, akin to performance art, featuring satanic iconography and moody organ music. LaVey would wear a hooded cloak with devil horns and a pentagram medallion while invoking the many names of the devil. He’d often wield a sword or sometimes a large snake while a nude woman was draped over an altar in the house’s ritual chamber.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Blanche Barton says the aesthetics of Satanism were rooted in LaVey’s artistic nature: He was a painter, sculptor and musician, who just happened to have a penchant for dark things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Examples of the early rituals he led can be seen in the 1970 documentary, “\u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/satanis-the-devils-mass-1970\">Satanis: The Devil’s Mass,\u003c/a>” which chronicles the early years of the church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the most amusing parts of the film, almost endearing, is when they go out and talk to the neighbors,” Barton said. “And it’s pretty funny. You know, they say that they see the nude people dancing around in the front. And they saw the lion … eating something! Really quite devilish and intriguing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11964956\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11964956\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621-800x759.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white image of a man with dark curly hair and a goatee seated cross legged on the floor of a room. In front of him is a lion cub, which looks at the camera.\" width=\"800\" height=\"759\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621-800x759.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621-1020x967.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621-160x152.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621-1536x1457.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-1310361512-scaled-e1697739531621.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\" />\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Anton LaVey, founder and self-proclaimed high priest of the Church of Satan, is photographed at home in San Francisco with his pet lion on June 26, 1964. \u003ccite>(Art Frisch/The San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>That’s right — LaVey actually owned a 500-pound pet lion named Togare, who he’d raised from a cub, and who lived with him in the Black House and slept in his bedroom at night. In the late 1960s, when his neighbors successfully petitioned to have the lion removed, Lavey ended up giving his oversized pet to actress Tippi Hedren, who starred in “The Birds,” and had founded (and apparently still lives on) \u003ca href=\"https://www.shambala.org/about.htm\">a big cat sanctuary\u003c/a> in Southern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey soon became a well-known personality throughout California and increasingly nationwide, largely supporting himself by collecting church initiation fees and doing paid public speaking engagements. He was frequently interviewed in print publications and on TV, including on \u003cem>The Tonight Show\u003c/em>. Even people who seemed to despise his ideology wanted to talk to him — as is evident in this interview with antagonistic talk show host Joe Pyne:\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/Kqb54soKU8M'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/Kqb54soKU8M'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A wide variety of people were drawn to LaVey’s dark charm and hedonistic philosophy that promoted a guilt-free, indulgent lifestyle. The church is rumored to have drawn in several notable celebrities in its early years, including Sammy Davis Jr. and Liberace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey also \u003ca href=\"https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4718112/Hollywood-Satanist-Bizarre-Jayne-Mansfield-Anton-LaVey.html\">developed a friendship\u003c/a> with blonde bombshell Jayne Mansfield, an actress, nightclub entertainer and Playboy playmate, and the mother of Law and Order: Special Victims Unit star Mariska Hargitay. There was even speculation that Mansfield’s death in 1967, a year after meeting LaVey, was the result of a curse he is believed to have placed on the driver of the car.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not surprisingly, LaVey openly courted controversy. In 1967, he \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/SFGate/videos/anton-lavey-oversees-a-satanic-wedding-ceremony-in-san-francisco/10156878589425594/\">publicized and officiated a satanic wedding\u003c/a> between a New York socialite and a journalist. He also performed satanic funerals for servicemen in the Bay Area, at the request of their families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By the time he started the church, LaVey had divorced his first wife and became involved with another woman, with whom he had a daughter, his second child. In 1967, he baptized the 3-year-old girl into the church, dedicating her to Satan as she sat in a hooded robe next to the nude altar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11964962\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11964962\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-800x923.jpg\" alt=\"A man in a hooded devil costume kneels in front of a large brick fireplace. A blonde woman kneels to his right. They are both reaching up towards a small girl wearing a hooded robe, who sits on the edge of the mantle, over which is draped a nude woman. A large pentagram featuring the head of Baphomet is painted on the wall behind them.\" width=\"800\" height=\"923\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-800x923.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-1020x1176.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-160x185.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-1332x1536.jpg 1332w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672-1776x2048.jpg 1776w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515036094-scaled-e1697741210672.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\" />\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Anton Szandor LaVey, the leader of the First Church of Satan, taps his gum-chewing 3-year-old daughter, Zeena Galatea LaVey, on the head with a sword during “baptism ceremonies” in San Francisco on May 23, 1967. A naked woman reclines on the altar during the anti-religious ceremony. \u003ccite>(Bettmann/Getty)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The Satanic Bible\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1969, LaVey published \u003ca href=\"https://www.harvard.com/book/the_satanic_bible/\">The Satanic Bible\u003c/a>, outlining his philosophy and detailing the official tenets of his church. At the core are \u003ca href=\"https://www.churchofsatan.com/nine-satanic-statements/\">the 9 Satanic Statements\u003c/a>, the last of which is: “Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here LaVey refers to the Christian Church, which he said he found hypocritical for its denial of human nature. “No religion had ever been based on man’s carnal needs or his fleshly pursuits,” he said, in a 1970 interview. “All religions are based on abstinence instead of indulgence. All religions therefore have to be based on fear. Well, we don’t feel that fear is necessary to base a religion on.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The word Satan means adversary, he explained. “I’m supplying a much-needed opposition.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Most of the nine statements begin with “Satan represents…” Many people incorrectly assume that Satanists worship the devil. In fact, the Church of Satan’s official position is that the devil doesn’t exist at all. It’s an atheistic religion — really more like a philosophy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What the Satanic Bible tries to advocate is independent study, not worship,” Blanche Barton, his biographer and former lover, said. “There is no dogma.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey’s philosophy grew in popularity throughout the 1970s. But even as the church continued to openly insist that it didn’t worship or believe in the devil, a centuries-old fear inevitably came bubbling to the surface.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The satanic panic\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Beginning in the 1980s, and lasting through the 1990s, LaVey’s church spurred a national wave of fear and conspiracy theories around “satanic cults,” resulting in over 12,000 unsubstantiated claims of satanic ritual abuse and crimes, many centered around children, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/31/us/satanic-panic.html\">according to the New York Times\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A series of high-profile court cases drew national headlines during this period of “satanic panic.” One notorious case in the early 1980s — the \u003ca href=\"https://famous-trials.com/mcmartin/902-home\">McMartin Preschool trial\u003c/a> in Manhattan Beach in Southern California — originated from a mother’s claim that her son had been sexually abused by his preschool, which she accused of being run by Satanists.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>That incited a set of increasingly bizarre claims of satanic child abuse and led to hundreds of children being interrogated by state investigators over allegations that they had been forced to do things like drink the blood of sacrificed animals or dig up graves. The mother who made the initial claim was later found to be prone to schizophrenic delusions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tapes of the children’s interviews were reviewed by a clinical psychologist who said they were coercive and extremely suggestive, leading children to give the answers the interviewers wanted to hear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Two separate trials over the course of seven years resulted in no convictions. And at a cost of $15 million, it became the most expensive criminal trial in U.S. history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Other similar cases resulted in actual convictions, a large number of them in the state of Texas. Most, however, were ultimately \u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/08/24/accused-of-satanism-they-spent-21-years-in-prison-they-were-just-declared-innocent-and-were-paid-millions/\">overturned\u003c/a> due to lack of evidence, sometimes \u003ca href=\"https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2022/10/26/how-satanic-panic-led-a-10-year-old-son-to-falsely-accuse-his-father/\">decades later\u003c/a> after the convicted parties had served \u003ca href=\"https://www.tpr.org/criminal-justice/2023-04-11/after-30-years-a-father-is-exonerated-in-satanic-panic-case\">years in prison\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Accusations weren’t lobbed directly at the Church of Satan, but the group was sometimes cited by police as having an influence on the spread of the ideology — as is the case in this \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/LawEnforcementGuideToSatanicCults1994VHSOccultHilarity\">police training video\u003c/a>. Filmed in San Francisco in the early 1990s, the video includes stereotypical claims about crimes Satanists might commit, from cannibalism and necrophilia to corpse theft and black market baby sales — despite any evidence of the church ever doing or condoning such things.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The Fate of the Black House\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Blanche Barton moved to San Francisco in 1984 at the age of 22 and became romantically involved with LaVey that same year. Five years later, Barton moved into the Black House with LaVey, who sold it to pay off debts, but continued renting it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Barton says, like so many other San Francisco Victorians, the house itself had a long and interesting history dating back to its construction in 1887.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It had trapdoors and it had been used as a [brothel] and a speakeasy,” she said, “It had a bar downstairs. It had secret passageways.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11964959\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11964959\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291-800x532.jpg\" alt=\"A mean in a hooded devil costume and cloak emerges from a secret passage way in the fireplace of a a room in his house. There are bookshelves above hi, and a human skeleton mounted in a large display case on the wall to the right.\" width=\"800\" height=\"532\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291-800x532.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291-1020x678.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291-1536x1022.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/GettyImages-515098326-scaled-e1697741191291.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\" />\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Anton LaVey, founder of the Church of Satan, rises out from a hidden corridor behind a false fireplace in his study in 1967. \u003ccite>(Bettmann/Getty)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>LaVey died from heart disease on Oct. 29, 1997, at the age of 67, although according to an \u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1997/11/09/anton-s-lavey-dies-at-67/c546b323-acb9-463e-ad96-7da298f9e4d8/\">obituary in \u003cem>The Washington Post\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, his death certificate listed him as dying several days later, on Halloween. He left behind three children, all from different women.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leadership of the church was eventually turned over to longtime church member Peter Gilmore, who still serves as its high priest. The church’s headquarters have since been moved to New York state, where Gilmore and his partner Peggy Nadramia built a new “Black House.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Barton said she and a group of followers attempted to raise money to buy LaVey’s house back so that it could be preserved as a museum, but those efforts ultimately failed, and the house was eventually sold and torn down in 2001.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was so much a part of his soul,” said Barton, “And as he said, ‘The roots went all the way to hell.’ So he was able to be there until the last, which was great.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What now stands in its place is a rather normal-looking beige apartment building, devoid of any signs that it was once the site of a satanic sanctuary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>If you visited San Francisco’s Richmond District before 2001, and made your way to 6114 California Street, you would have found yourself facing a tall Victorian house that was entirely \u003ci>black.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>An attention grabbing paint scheme for sure. But it’s what happened inside The Black House that truly intrigued curious San Francsicans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was the first headquarters of the Church of Satan … and the personal home of its founder Anton LaVey. His theatrical nature, and controversial beliefs, turned him into a kind of celebrity… here he is in an interview in 1970…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Pyne:\u003c/b> Who ordained you a atanic priest?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey:\u003c/b> I would say, probably, I received the call. Just as any fundamentalist—\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne:\u003c/b> Well most of us do, but we fight it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> Why fight it? This is, of course, the whole principle of my religion. All—\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne:\u003c/b> What do you mean you received the call? You mean one day the devil said “Go out, Anton Szandor LaVey, and give people hell!” [audience laughs]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> That’s about it. That’s about it. Because people like to have a hell of a time, don’t they?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Spooky music]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">OAP: This is Bay Curious, I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Should I say it? I have to say it. Spooky season is here… and if you’ve been listening to the show for a while you know we love to bring you stories with a certain vibe around this time of year. Today, we are dusting off an episode from 2023 that explores what was going on inside that Black House. And who, really, was Anton LaVey? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr />\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[spooky laugh]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b> We sent producer Amanda Font to make a deal with the devil…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>The Bay Area is often associated with countercultural movements. You had the beat poets of the 1950s getting arrested for protesting censorship, the free-loving hippies of the 1960s dropping acid in the park, and the Black Panthers in the 1970s fighting back against institutional racism. What you don’t often hear about alongside those other cultural phenomena is that the late 1960s in San Francisco also gave rise to the notorious, indulgent, and wickedly provocative Church of Satan. [\u003ci>demonic vocal effect on “Church of Satan”]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>In this case, when we use the word “church,” it might not be exactly what you’re picturing. They do describe themselves as a religious organization, but there aren’t a lot of physical church buildings associated with Satanism. It’s more like an organization of like-minded people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For decades, the black heart of the church, and perhaps still the most recognizable Satanist, was its founder Anton Szandor LaVey. He was born Howard Stanton Levey in Chicago in 1930, and later his family moved to the Bay Area. From a young age, he had a fascination with the supernatural, magic and the idea of trickery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey [archival]: \u003c/b>When I was about 5 years old, I had a friend that had a catalog from the Johnson and Smith company, filled with all of these jokes, tricks, and books on forbidden subjects.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>This is a clip of LaVey from a 1993 documentary about him called “Speak of the Devil.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey [archival]:\u003c/b> It had all the most horrid examples of man’s inhumanity to man, all of course presented in the form of good fun and entertainment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Like a toy “recorder box,” that, when you pushed a button, would stab a sharp needle into the finger of an unsuspecting victim. LaVey recalls he didn’t want to play such a mean trick on his friends… but he didn’t mind if it was a kid who was a bully. A similar thought came into play later, when he developed his satanic philosophy. It’s big on the idea of being kind to those who deserve it, but seeking revenge on those who wrong you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As he got older, LaVey’s curious nature led him to pursue somewhat unusual jobs. In his early life, he claimed to have worked in a circus with big cats, as a psychic investigator, an organist, a hypnotist, and to have been a police photographer for the SFPD (although there are no official records to back that last one.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1956, a decade before he officially created the Church of Satan, he was already cultivating the kind of dark aesthetic that people would come to know him for. LaVey bought the Victorian house at 6114 California Street and painted it black.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> And as he said, the roots went all The way to hell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b> This is Blanche Barton…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> I am the current Magistra Templi Rex of the Church of Satan. I’ve been a member of the organization. Wow, almost 50 years now. And I was a high priestess for a time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>She also was Anton LaVey’s romantic partner for 13 years, and they had a child together. Blanche, or Magistra Barton has written two books about the Church of Satan, including a biography of Anton LaVey called “The Secret Life of a Satanist,” and “The Church of Satan: A History of the World’s Most Notorious Religion.” Blanche says even before the house became a satanic sanctuary, like so many old San Francisco Victorians, the house itself had an interesting history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> It was Built in 1887, as far as the stories go, by a Scottish sea captain. And there were timbers in the lower levels that had come to San Francisco During the gold rush, and it had trapdoors and it had been used as a whorehouse and a speakeasy. It had a bar downstairs. It had secret passageways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>When he purchased the house in ‘56, LaVey lived there with his first wife and their young daughter, Karla. And as his interests in the supernatural deepened, he surrounded himself with a group of friends who were curious about the same things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton: \u003c/b>The Church of Satan, sort of grew out of what he called the Magic Circle. They were all intrigued by the weird and the unexplained. They started sort of having soirees and that sort of led into ritualizing, to see, practically, what happens or if anything happens. He started presenting seminars on the various topics that he was interested in from, vampires to cannibalism. Everything weird and wonderful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[spooky music]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b> And in 1966, the people in that magic circle became the first members of the Church of Satan… picture it… a dark night, April 30th, Walpurgisnacht — a German holiday with Pagan origins, sometimes called “The night of the witches.” On that night Anton LaVey ritualistically shaved his head in the tradition of medieval executioners and dark magicians, adopting the look he’d have for the rest of his life, and declared 1966 to be the first year of the reign of Satan, thus founding America’s first official Satanic church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And from there, it became a kind of hit…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[swinging music]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey claimed that the church had hundreds of members in San Francisco and thousands throughout the world. He was a natural showman, with his shiny polished bald head, black goatee, and intense eyes. He wore all black, a long cloak, large rings, a pentagram medallion, and would make appearances wearing a hooded devil costume with little horns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He had a 500-pound pet lion named Togare who he’d raised from a cub, that slept in his bedroom at night. He invited reporters and the public inside the Black House to attend Satanic Mass…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Archival recording of Satanic Mass]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>…Where he’d invoke the devil while wielding a large sword or sometimes a boa constrictor while a nude woman was draped across the altar in the ritual chamber. He even married people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News clip of LaVey marrying couple:\u003c/b> “Former New York socialite Judith Chase and John Raymond were joined in unholy wedlock before a live altar, a nude redhead. Self-ordained sorcerer/minister Anton Levey presided at the San Francisco ceremony.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>The media absolutely ate it up. They started calling him the Black Pope.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News clip of LaVey marrying couple:\u003c/b> “As the worst man looks on, the blessings of Lucifer and Beelzebub are invoked. The elaborate rite smacked of publicity, because next day the bride and groom secured a conventional wedding license”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>LaVey was charismatic and people seemed to gravitate to him. He became a kind of overnight celebrity. He was interviewed on national television, in magazines, people across the country were seeing his face. Even people who seemed to \u003ci>hate\u003c/i> him wanted to interview him… Like talk show host Joe Pyne…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne:\u003c/b> Are you married?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> Oh yes\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne:\u003c/b> You have any little devils?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> Oh yes. I have two.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb> Pyne: \u003c/b>Are you gonna raise them as satanic kids?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> Certainly, but not to go around chopping people up as sacrificing human beings just to—\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne: \u003c/b> That would be the greatest reward of all. If your kids some night would creep in and set fire to you and your lion, then dance around with pitchforks saying “Hey look at daddy, look at daddy!” (audience laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>But it seemed like all kinds of people were at least curious about the church. At one time, Sammy Davis Jr. and Liberace were linked to the Church of Satan. In 1966 the actress Jayne Mansfield met LaVey at a film festival in San Francisco and they began an unlikely friendship. There are numerous photos of them together, even performing a ritual at Mansfield’s home, though Mansfield said she was a Catholic and simply found LaVey intriguing. Some people blame her untimely death in a car crash a year later on an alleged curse LaVey put on the driver of the car… but who’s to say?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When we return, more controversy for Anton LeVey and the Satanic Panic… stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Anton LeVey was no stranger to bad press. The media was infatuated with his dark styling and outlandish comments … and LeVey seemed to relish the attention. Here’s Amanda Font again…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Famously, in 1967 he baptized his then 3-year-old daughter Zeena into the church, dedicating her to Satan while her mother, LaVey’s 2nd partner Diane Hegarty, looked on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival clip of LaVey baptizing Zeena: \u003c/b>In the name of our great god, Satan Lucifer, I command thee to come forth an bestow these blessings upon us…(fades down and LaVey continues)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>So how much of LaVey’s highly theatrical image was serious? Well, while much of the ritualizing was akin to performance art, he was sincere in his philosophy. LaVey published “The Satanic Bible,” which by now has sold over a million copies, outlining his beliefs. The number one sin in Satanism is stupidity or willful ignorance. Herd conformity is also up there. He founded the Church of Satan as an alternative to what he saw as the repression of many other mainstream religions. Denying human nature, he said, was the real sin. Indulgence is key.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey [archival]:\u003c/b> No religion had ever been based on man’s carnal needs or his fleshly pursuits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>This is a clip of LaVey from a documentary filmed in those first few years of the church called “Satanis: The Devil’s Mass”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey [archival]:\u003c/b> All religions are based on abstinence instead of indulgence. All religions therefore have to be based on fear. Well, we don’t feel that fear is necessary to base a religion on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Not everyone was a fan, of course. He was telling people to embrace their animal nature… give in to their dark and lustful desires. Christian groups were appalled, obviously, and what about the neighbors? Here’s Blanche Barton again…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> One of the most amusing parts of the film, almost endearing, is when they go out and talk to the neighbors. And it’s pretty funny. You know, they say that they see the nude people dancing around in the front. And they saw the lion — eating something! Really quite, quite devilish and intriguing. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from ‘Satanis: The Devil’s Mass]\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neighbor 1:\u003c/b> He’s been in the neighborhood about 14 years and I always knew him as Tony. Just a nice ordinary — well — a little more dramatic than most men in the neighborhood, perhaps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neighbor 2:\u003c/b> Actually I don’t know what kind of man he is. As soon as you meet him, you think he’s a very very nice man, you know. I just had a feeling I can trust him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neighbor 3:\u003c/b> (grumbling) A very undesirable type of a neighbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Neighbors successfully petitioned to have LaVey’s pet lion relocated in the late 60s. He first landed in a zoo, then ended up at a big cat sanctuary in Southern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for the goings on at the church, the nude rituals, wild events, blaspheming…well, freedom of religion! They weren’t doing anything illegal. Still, by the 70s, LaVey had stopped inviting the press in for all the rituals, instead focusing more on cultivating new members. He was living in a world of his own aesthetic making, which is a primary tenet of his satanic philosophy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> Anton Levey was first and foremost an artist. He felt that aesthetics, whatever you are most drawn to, is what you should use. If you’re really excited about Frankenstein or if you are very drawn to technology. Because what you do in the ritual chamber is you’re evoking your emotions. Nothing comes from outside. It’s not coming from Satan or demons or anything. But we know the power that Humans have for creating a world and a life for yourself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>LaVey was making a living through the church, taking speaking engagements and charging initiation fees for new members. He also sometimes worked as an organist at local clubs. He spent more of his time making art, and music, another passion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton: \u003c/b>He got the most joy out of playing. Keyboards because he could control the entire orchestra.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Clip of Anton LaVey playing keyboards]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>He even pressed a record. Much of it includes recordings of early satanic masses, but also just, you know, some songs…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Anton LaVey singing a song called ‘Honolulu Baby’]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton: \u003c/b>His specific aesthetics were very much in the forties. A lot of the precepts of Satanism that he developed are very much, sort of, grounded in his creative self.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Anton LaVey singing, music fades out]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> And then in the Eighties, there was the Satanic Panic going on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b> In the 1980s and through the 90s there was a national wave of fear that “Satanic Cults” were taking over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clip from training video: \u003c/b>Anton LaVey, perhaps the best-known Satanist in America compiled his years of cult knowledge into two books: the Satanic Bible, and the Satanic Rituals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>This is from an hourlong police training video from 1993, filmed in San Francisco, that was created to teach law enforcement how to spot satanic symbols and investigate “satanic crimes.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clip from training video:\u003c/b> Now remember, not all satanic people commit crimes. Some of their activities may be perfectly legal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>It has all the highly stereotypical suggestions about what kinds of \u003ci>illegal\u003c/i> activities Satanists might engage in….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clip from training video: \u003c/b>Murder, which might include human sacrifice, or mass murders or cannibalism…(fade under)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Some of them, frankly, are pretty macabre.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clip from training video:\u003c/b> Corpse theft, cemetery vandalism, black market sales of bones and skulls, black market baby selling…(fade under)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Dramatic music]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>To be clear, these things weren’t happening. It’s kind of funny now, especially set to\u003ci> that \u003c/i>music, but at that time the fear that these things \u003ci>were actually\u003c/i> happening was intense. Through the 80s and 90s upwards of 10-thousand unsubstantiated claims of ritualistic abuse by supposed satanic cults were made, though not directly against the Church of Satan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was happening in California, and all over the United States. It was like the witch trials all over again. There were numerous high-profile cases where people were convicted of satanic crimes, only to be exonerated after serving years, sometimes decades, in prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> But at the same time, there was a real excitement. From younger people who were. Sort of discovering Satanism because of the satanic. Panic. You know, people were jumping up and down and. Saying, “Oh, this is so evil, this is so. Bad.” And yet they would. Publish the satanic statements and the young kids would say, Well, that seems pretty sensible. To me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Because, here’s the thing a lot of people get wrong about The Church of Satan. Satanists don’t worship the devil. They don’t drink blood, sacrifice babies or animals. They don’t even believe in the literal devil. They’re atheists. Satanism is more of a philosophy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton: \u003c/b>What the Satanic Bible tries to advocate is independent study, not worship. There is no dogma. You know, we honor animals. We honor children. It’s against self-deceit, kindness to those who deserve it rather than love wasted on ingrates. And the last one, of course, people get a chuckle out of because we say, we recognize that Satan is the best friend that the church has ever had…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anton LaVey [archival]:\u003c/b> The devil is the guy that’s kept the church in business for many many years. Without him, and the concept of evil, where would the church be?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b> Using a satanic adversary to represent an ideology of personal freedom and indulging without guilt… Blanche says it’s really more of a style choice. That’s what drew her in…She wanted to embrace her dark and sensual side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> I was looking for a philosophy that really represented women and a freedom for women and their lust. And their desires and their habits and their beauty and their wisdom. And I felt that most organized religions just did not have a voice for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Blanche had been following the Church of Satan through her teenage years and early 20s in Southern California, even coming to San Francisco to meet Anton LaVey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> From our first meeting we felt a draw to each other. And from that time we spent a lot of time on the phone and corresponding back and forth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Less than a year later in 1984, just after graduating college, she moves to San Francisco at the age of 22. Shortly thereafter they became romantically involved. Blanche moved into the Black House in 1989.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton: \u003c/b>We had a wonderful life together. It had a rhythm. Of course, he was very nocturnal. So a lot of times we would get up at four or five in the evening and meet people. Play music, converse, maybe watch a Movie And then we would go to sleep around dawn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Rituals were no longer public, but occasional private events. LaVey wasn’t willing to present the Church of Satan as just a curiosity anymore. In 1993, Blanche gave birth to their son, his third child, Satan Xerxes. At that point, LaVey was 63 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MUSIC\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Pyne:\u003c/b> So is it necessary to drive a stake through your heart to kill you, or would an ordinary knock on the head do it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> I will never die.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pyne:\u003c/b> You won’t?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LaVey:\u003c/b> No, of course not. I’ve made arrangements. (audience ooohs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>Anton LaVey died from heart disease at St. Mary’s in San Francisco on October 29th, 1997. Although his official death certificate lists his expiration date as Halloween.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So what happens when the core of the Church of Satan, the man who was its central flame, gets snuffed out?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Well, Blanche served as high priestess, the top leadership position, for a few years, before stepping down and handing the reins over to longtime member Peter Gilmore, who is still its high priest. The church left San Francisco and now has a new ‘Black House’ in New York state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaVey’s oldest daughter, Karla, was also high-priestess for a time but left the Church of Satan to start her own “First Satanic Church” in San Francisco. It’s a lot more exclusive and is known for throwing a great Black X-Mass concert in the city every year for the last couple decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Zeena, who was dedicated to Satan as a toddler, left Satanism entirely and became a Tantric Buddhist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His son, Satan Xerxes, isn’t involved at all and lives a private life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for the infamous Black House…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanche Barton:\u003c/b> It was an amazing house and it should have been preserved. And we did try.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>LaVey had been forced to sell the house to a friend in the early 90s though he was allowed to live there until his death. But the house was in disrepair, and the land was just too valuable. When efforts to find a preservation group willing to take it on failed, the property was sold and torn down in 2001.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What stands there now is a very normal-looking apartment building. No lingering signs that it was once a raucous den of sin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was Bay Curious producer Amanda Font.\u003cbr />\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr />\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This episode was produced by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Brendan Willard, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Katrina Schwartz, Anna Casalme, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and the whole KQED family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Prop 1: Authorizes California to Issue a $11.25 Billion Bond to Fund Affordable Housing",
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"headTitle": "Prop 1: Authorizes California to Issue a $11.25 Billion Bond to Fund Affordable Housing | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>When asked in a recent statewide survey, what’s the most important issue facing Californians today? The top responses were affordability, cost of living, housing costs, and availability.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In other words, nothing new to see here. These are issues that California has struggled with for a long time. On the November ballot this year are a few initiatives that legislators or interest groups think could help. Among them is Proposition 1, which would allow the state to borrow $11.25 billion for housing programs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Here’s how it reads on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Prop 1, authorizes bonds for housing affordability programs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Erika Cruz Guevara, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to PropFest. For the next few weeks, our teams at The Bay and Bay Curious are bringing you breakdowns of each statewide proposition on the California ballot so you can vote with confidence in the November election.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>There are 14 propositions on the ballot this year, and we’ll be taking you through all of them between now and October 9th. We’ll be looking at how they got on the ballet, the arguments for and against each one, talk about how things could play out if they pass, and the money fueling it all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Are you ready for this, Ericka?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Let’s do this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today in our first installment, we’re going through Proposition 1, a housing bond with KQED’s housing reporter, Adhiti Bandlamudi. Welcome, Aditi. Hey, thanks for having me. Let’s start at the top level. What does Proposition one do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>So Prop 1 issues an $11.25 billion bond, mostly for the construction and preservation of affordable housing. Included in that $11,25 billion, there’s a $1.25 million portion that goes towards the CalVet home loan program, which helps veterans become homeowners. The legislative analyst’s office did a report on Prop 1, and it says the money from this bond could build up to 40,000 rental units. And it could help 40,000 households buy a home. So in total, it could help more than 80,000 families stay housed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right, so we’re at the beginning of PropFest. We’re kind of getting our brains in the right place for all this stuff. Can you remind us how bonds work?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so most of this bond, about $10 billion, is a general obligation bond, also called a GO bond. A state-issued GO bond means that the government will borrow money from investors or anyone who buys the bonds and will then pay it back with interest over the next 25 years out of California’s general fund. It’s kind of like a mortgage. And then The $1.25 billion for the Veterans Home Buying Assistance Program. That is also a go-bond, but it’s self-supporting, meaning that it’ll be repaid through home loans that veterans take out through the program.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea how that $11.25 billion will be spent if this passes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>It is going to be split into a bunch of different programs. So let me break it down. So a very large chunk, about 5.1 billion, goes towards the multifamily housing program, which is this really big state program for affordable housing development. Some of the units that are built under this program have to be available for extremely low income households who are at risk of becoming homeless. And that money can be used towards the construction, rehabilitation, or preservation of affordable housing. About a billion dollars goes towards supportive housing through the multifamily housing program. Supportive housing basically, it’s housing that comes with wraparound services, stuff like drug abuse support, counseling, help finding a job, and that’s specifically for people who were chronically homeless or who are at risk of becoming chronically harmless. The bond also goes towards a bunch of other programs like making existing cities more dense, housing for farm workers, students, tribes, and other groups. And then, as we talked about before, there’s 1.25 billion which goes towards the CalVet program, and then another 1.1 billion that goes towards programs which promote home ownership for other groups\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Wow, so really funding a pretty big number of programs there. Very much so. This proposition was placed on the ballot by the California legislature. So we know it’s something that at least the majority of our elected officials want to see passed. How does Prop 1 play into larger goals that the state has for housing?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>This proposition has been many years in the making and affordable housing advocates say, it’s a long time coming. So there was a bond voters passed in 2018 that was called the Veterans and Affordable Housing Bond Act. It was also called Prop 1. There’s no deja vu, like that is very similar to this year’s bond. But the 2018 bond was for $4 billion. Similar to this year’s bond that was split into funding for affordable housing and the CalVet program. That funding very quickly ran out in 2023 due to overwhelming demand. Housing advocates say we need more money for these programs and so this year, bond money would basically replace those exhausted funds. I talked with assembly member Buffy Wicks. She represents Berkeley and she’s been working on getting this bond on the ballot for the past four years. She says that every election cycle, lawmakers will fight for a bond for one cause or another, whether it’s housing, climate, schools, transportation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Buffy Wicks: \u003c/strong>But there’s really only so much bond debt we can take on as a state So we want to be mindful because every dollar we’ve put into a bond is we’re sort of borrowing from our future self\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>And last election cycle, the housing bond lost out to the climate bond and won about school facilities. From then until now, WIC says that money for affordable housing got really tight, partially because the state has allocated less and less for these programs in the state budget in recent years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Buffy Wicks: \u003c/strong>This year, the housing bond really became the priority because we’re running out of these resources. And so it was very clear from the assembly, the Senate and the governor that this was the top priority this year is to get it on the ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Wicks says there are about 40,000 shovel-ready affordable housing projects ready to break ground, but they need just a little bit more money to close their financing and actually put the shovels in the ground. She said that this bond could bridge that funding gap for those projects.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re going to take a quick break, but when we return, we’ll learn who is supporting the measure and hear from the opposition. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back with more on Proposition 1, a bond for housing affordability programs. Adhiti, who is supporting Prop 1.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There are a lot of Democratic lawmakers who supported this bond when it was working its way through the legislature, but there are also a bunch of organizations that support it, including the California Association of Veterans, ACLU California Action, United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America, the California Apartment Association, and so many others. Governor Gavin Newsom also supports this bill. And what about the opposition? So, there isn’t a formal opposition campaign. But there are a handful of Republican lawmakers who voted against the bill while it was in the legislature. Their main concern is that number one, it’s called the Veterans and Affordable Housing Bond Act of 2026, but only 1.25 billion out of the 11 billion goes towards veterans. Here’s state assembly member Carl DeMaio. He represents San Diego. He was speaking on the assembly floor back in June.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio: \u003c/strong>Let’s get the vets and let’s put them front and center and say it’s all about the vats. Everyone loves veterans, shameful. The window dressing on an absolutely awful package.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Mm, I see, so arguing it’s not right to have the word veterans in there when only about 11% of this bond measure is actually for veterans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s their argument. Their other concern is that the state would be borrowing money if this bond passes, and that could be bad news for future taxpayers. Assemblymember David Tangipa, he represents Fresno. He also spoke about that on that same assembly floor session.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Tangipa: \u003c/strong>Why do we need to borrow money? If we wanted to appropriate money right now to take care of our veterans, to make affordable housing, you would do so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There are some Californians who are worried about taking on debt. Yes, these programs will be funded, but the legislative analyst office predicts that it would cost about 500 to 600 million annually to repay this bond for the next 25 years. That’s about a quarter of a percent of the state’s total general fund budget. And since the state has to pay interest, the total cost of this bond would be 15% more than if the state just paid upfront with the money that it already has.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Interesting. We should also mention that this isn’t the only housing bond on the ballot and not the only one you’re covering.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>That’s right, there’s another bond I’m covering, Prop 37, and it focuses specifically on middle-class homeownership. I think that says something really interesting about how people are feeling about housing affordability right now. It’s clear that this is a top issue for lawmakers, but it’s also a reflection of what they’re hearing from their constituents. It’s clearly a concern for people. And in my conversation with Assemblymember Wix, she mentioned that, you know, if Prop 37… Passes, it could work in tandem with Prop 1 if voters approve both of them. Because it would basically mean that both groups, both low-income residents and middle-class residents, could get the much needed help to afford housing. And it also feels like it’s building off of this national momentum. Congress recently passed the 21st Century Road to Housing Act, which is a huge package of bills, which is also trying to stimulate homeownership, but also home building. And so Wicks is saying that if everything kind of happens and voters approve all of this, it could have a really nice compounding effect, potentially.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Who is spending to support or oppose Prop 1?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Given the most recent data, the spending is pretty lopsided. So $2.65 million have been spent to support the proposition. That mostly comes from affordable housing groups. Only $7,500 have been spent to oppose this prop, and that mostly come from Reform California, an organization led by Republican assembly member Carl DeMaio, who we heard from earlier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Adhiti Bandlamudi is a housing reporter at KQED. Thanks, Adhiti.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Thanks for having me, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 1 means you want California to issue $11.25 billion in bonds for all those housing projects we talked about, targeting primarily low-income families and veterans. And a vote no means you don’t.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for Proposition 1, coming tomorrow is Propositions 2 and 3, so make sure you’re subscribed to The Bay and Bay Curious so you don’t miss a beat. And stay tuned over the next few weeks as we make our way through all 14 statewide propositions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Whew, we got a ways to go, Erica.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>Laughs\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Prop Fest is a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It is produced by: Alan Montecillo, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Gabriella Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>You can find audio and transcripts for this series at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/propfest\">KQED.org/PropFest\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you appreciate Prop Fest, please consider becoming a sustaining member of KQED. We cant do this work without you! Become a member at \u003ca href=\"https://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Have a good one.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>When asked in a recent statewide survey, what’s the most important issue facing Californians today? The top responses were affordability, cost of living, housing costs, and availability.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>When asked in a recent statewide survey, what’s the most important issue facing Californians today? The top responses were affordability, cost of living, housing costs, and availability.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In other words, nothing new to see here. These are issues that California has struggled with for a long time. On the November ballot this year are a few initiatives that legislators or interest groups think could help. Among them is Proposition 1, which would allow the state to borrow $11.25 billion for housing programs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In other words, nothing new to see here. These are issues that California has struggled with for a long time. On the November ballot this year are a few initiatives that legislators or interest groups think could help. Among them is Proposition 1, which would allow the state to borrow $11.25 billion for housing programs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Here’s how it reads on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Here’s how it reads on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Prop 1, authorizes bonds for housing affordability programs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Prop 1, authorizes bonds for housing affordability programs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Erika Cruz Guevara, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to PropFest. For the next few weeks, our teams at The Bay and Bay Curious are bringing you breakdowns of each statewide proposition on the California ballot so you can vote with confidence in the November election.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to PropFest. For the next few weeks, our teams at The Bay and Bay Curious are bringing you breakdowns of each statewide proposition on the California ballot so you can vote with confidence in the November election.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>There are 14 propositions on the ballot this year, and we’ll be taking you through all of them between now and October 9th. We’ll be looking at how they got on the ballet, the arguments for and against each one, talk about how things could play out if they pass, and the money fueling it all.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>There are 14 propositions on the ballot this year, and we’ll be taking you through all of them between now and October 9th. We’ll be looking at how they got on the ballet, the arguments for and against each one, talk about how things could play out if they pass, and the money fueling it all.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Are you ready for this, Ericka?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Are you ready for this, Ericka?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Let’s do this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today in our first installment, we’re going through Proposition 1, a housing bond with KQED’s housing reporter, Adhiti Bandlamudi. Welcome, Aditi. Hey, thanks for having me. Let’s start at the top level. What does Proposition one do?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>So Prop 1 issues an $11.25 billion bond, mostly for the construction and preservation of affordable housing. Included in that $11,25 billion, there’s a $1.25 million portion that goes towards the CalVet home loan program, which helps veterans become homeowners. The legislative analyst’s office did a report on Prop 1, and it says the money from this bond could build up to 40,000 rental units. And it could help 40,000 households buy a home. So in total, it could help more than 80,000 families stay housed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>So Prop 1 issues an $11.25 billion bond, mostly for the construction and preservation of affordable housing. Included in that $11,25 billion, there’s a $1.25 million portion that goes towards the CalVet home loan program, which helps veterans become homeowners. The legislative analyst’s office did a report on Prop 1, and it says the money from this bond could build up to 40,000 rental units. And it could help 40,000 households buy a home. So in total, it could help more than 80,000 families stay housed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right, so we’re at the beginning of PropFest. We’re kind of getting our brains in the right place for all this stuff. Can you remind us how bonds work?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right, so we’re at the beginning of PropFest. We’re kind of getting our brains in the right place for all this stuff. Can you remind us how bonds work?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so most of this bond, about $10 billion, is a general obligation bond, also called a GO bond. A state-issued GO bond means that the government will borrow money from investors or anyone who buys the bonds and will then pay it back with interest over the next 25 years out of California’s general fund. It’s kind of like a mortgage. And then The $1.25 billion for the Veterans Home Buying Assistance Program. That is also a go-bond, but it’s self-supporting, meaning that it’ll be repaid through home loans that veterans take out through the program.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so most of this bond, about $10 billion, is a general obligation bond, also called a GO bond. A state-issued GO bond means that the government will borrow money from investors or anyone who buys the bonds and will then pay it back with interest over the next 25 years out of California’s general fund. It’s kind of like a mortgage. And then The $1.25 billion for the Veterans Home Buying Assistance Program. That is also a go-bond, but it’s self-supporting, meaning that it’ll be repaid through home loans that veterans take out through the program.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea how that $11.25 billion will be spent if this passes?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea how that $11.25 billion will be spent if this passes?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>It is going to be split into a bunch of different programs. So let me break it down. So a very large chunk, about 5.1 billion, goes towards the multifamily housing program, which is this really big state program for affordable housing development. Some of the units that are built under this program have to be available for extremely low income households who are at risk of becoming homeless. And that money can be used towards the construction, rehabilitation, or preservation of affordable housing. About a billion dollars goes towards supportive housing through the multifamily housing program. Supportive housing basically, it’s housing that comes with wraparound services, stuff like drug abuse support, counseling, help finding a job, and that’s specifically for people who were chronically homeless or who are at risk of becoming chronically harmless. The bond also goes towards a bunch of other programs like making existing cities more dense, housing for farm workers, students, tribes, and other groups. And then, as we talked about before, there’s 1.25 billion which goes towards the CalVet program, and then another 1.1 billion that goes towards programs which promote home ownership for other groups\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>It is going to be split into a bunch of different programs. So let me break it down. So a very large chunk, about 5.1 billion, goes towards the multifamily housing program, which is this really big state program for affordable housing development. Some of the units that are built under this program have to be available for extremely low income households who are at risk of becoming homeless. And that money can be used towards the construction, rehabilitation, or preservation of affordable housing. About a billion dollars goes towards supportive housing through the multifamily housing program. Supportive housing basically, it’s housing that comes with wraparound services, stuff like drug abuse support, counseling, help finding a job, and that’s specifically for people who were chronically homeless or who are at risk of becoming chronically harmless. The bond also goes towards a bunch of other programs like making existing cities more dense, housing for farm workers, students, tribes, and other groups. And then, as we talked about before, there’s 1.25 billion which goes towards the CalVet program, and then another 1.1 billion that goes towards programs which promote home ownership for other groups\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Wow, so really funding a pretty big number of programs there. Very much so. This proposition was placed on the ballot by the California legislature. So we know it’s something that at least the majority of our elected officials want to see passed. How does Prop 1 play into larger goals that the state has for housing?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Wow, so really funding a pretty big number of programs there. Very much so. This proposition was placed on the ballot by the California legislature. So we know it’s something that at least the majority of our elected officials want to see passed. How does Prop 1 play into larger goals that the state has for housing?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>This proposition has been many years in the making and affordable housing advocates say, it’s a long time coming. So there was a bond voters passed in 2018 that was called the Veterans and Affordable Housing Bond Act. It was also called Prop 1. There’s no deja vu, like that is very similar to this year’s bond. But the 2018 bond was for $4 billion. Similar to this year’s bond that was split into funding for affordable housing and the CalVet program. That funding very quickly ran out in 2023 due to overwhelming demand. Housing advocates say we need more money for these programs and so this year, bond money would basically replace those exhausted funds. I talked with assembly member Buffy Wicks. She represents Berkeley and she’s been working on getting this bond on the ballot for the past four years. She says that every election cycle, lawmakers will fight for a bond for one cause or another, whether it’s housing, climate, schools, transportation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>This proposition has been many years in the making and affordable housing advocates say, it’s a long time coming. So there was a bond voters passed in 2018 that was called the Veterans and Affordable Housing Bond Act. It was also called Prop 1. There’s no deja vu, like that is very similar to this year’s bond. But the 2018 bond was for $4 billion. Similar to this year’s bond that was split into funding for affordable housing and the CalVet program. That funding very quickly ran out in 2023 due to overwhelming demand. Housing advocates say we need more money for these programs and so this year, bond money would basically replace those exhausted funds. I talked with assembly member Buffy Wicks. She represents Berkeley and she’s been working on getting this bond on the ballot for the past four years. She says that every election cycle, lawmakers will fight for a bond for one cause or another, whether it’s housing, climate, schools, transportation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Buffy Wicks: \u003c/strong>But there’s really only so much bond debt we can take on as a state So we want to be mindful because every dollar we’ve put into a bond is we’re sort of borrowing from our future self\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Buffy Wicks: \u003c/strong>But there’s really only so much bond debt we can take on as a state So we want to be mindful because every dollar we’ve put into a bond is we’re sort of borrowing from our future self\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>And last election cycle, the housing bond lost out to the climate bond and won about school facilities. From then until now, WIC says that money for affordable housing got really tight, partially because the state has allocated less and less for these programs in the state budget in recent years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>And last election cycle, the housing bond lost out to the climate bond and won about school facilities. From then until now, WIC says that money for affordable housing got really tight, partially because the state has allocated less and less for these programs in the state budget in recent years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Buffy Wicks: \u003c/strong>This year, the housing bond really became the priority because we’re running out of these resources. And so it was very clear from the assembly, the Senate and the governor that this was the top priority this year is to get it on the ballot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Buffy Wicks: \u003c/strong>This year, the housing bond really became the priority because we’re running out of these resources. And so it was very clear from the assembly, the Senate and the governor that this was the top priority this year is to get it on the ballot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Wicks says there are about 40,000 shovel-ready affordable housing projects ready to break ground, but they need just a little bit more money to close their financing and actually put the shovels in the ground. She said that this bond could bridge that funding gap for those projects.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Wicks says there are about 40,000 shovel-ready affordable housing projects ready to break ground, but they need just a little bit more money to close their financing and actually put the shovels in the ground. She said that this bond could bridge that funding gap for those projects.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re going to take a quick break, but when we return, we’ll learn who is supporting the measure and hear from the opposition. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re going to take a quick break, but when we return, we’ll learn who is supporting the measure and hear from the opposition. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back with more on Proposition 1, a bond for housing affordability programs. Adhiti, who is supporting Prop 1.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back with more on Proposition 1, a bond for housing affordability programs. Adhiti, who is supporting Prop 1.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There are a lot of Democratic lawmakers who supported this bond when it was working its way through the legislature, but there are also a bunch of organizations that support it, including the California Association of Veterans, ACLU California Action, United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America, the California Apartment Association, and so many others. Governor Gavin Newsom also supports this bill. And what about the opposition? So, there isn’t a formal opposition campaign. But there are a handful of Republican lawmakers who voted against the bill while it was in the legislature. Their main concern is that number one, it’s called the Veterans and Affordable Housing Bond Act of 2026, but only 1.25 billion out of the 11 billion goes towards veterans. Here’s state assembly member Carl DeMaio. He represents San Diego. He was speaking on the assembly floor back in June.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There are a lot of Democratic lawmakers who supported this bond when it was working its way through the legislature, but there are also a bunch of organizations that support it, including the California Association of Veterans, ACLU California Action, United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America, the California Apartment Association, and so many others. Governor Gavin Newsom also supports this bill. And what about the opposition? So, there isn’t a formal opposition campaign. But there are a handful of Republican lawmakers who voted against the bill while it was in the legislature. Their main concern is that number one, it’s called the Veterans and Affordable Housing Bond Act of 2026, but only 1.25 billion out of the 11 billion goes towards veterans. Here’s state assembly member Carl DeMaio. He represents San Diego. He was speaking on the assembly floor back in June.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio: \u003c/strong>Let’s get the vets and let’s put them front and center and say it’s all about the vats. Everyone loves veterans, shameful. The window dressing on an absolutely awful package.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio: \u003c/strong>Let’s get the vets and let’s put them front and center and say it’s all about the vats. Everyone loves veterans, shameful. The window dressing on an absolutely awful package.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Mm, I see, so arguing it’s not right to have the word veterans in there when only about 11% of this bond measure is actually for veterans.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Mm, I see, so arguing it’s not right to have the word veterans in there when only about 11% of this bond measure is actually for veterans.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s their argument. Their other concern is that the state would be borrowing money if this bond passes, and that could be bad news for future taxpayers. Assemblymember David Tangipa, he represents Fresno. He also spoke about that on that same assembly floor session.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s their argument. Their other concern is that the state would be borrowing money if this bond passes, and that could be bad news for future taxpayers. Assemblymember David Tangipa, he represents Fresno. He also spoke about that on that same assembly floor session.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Tangipa: \u003c/strong>Why do we need to borrow money? If we wanted to appropriate money right now to take care of our veterans, to make affordable housing, you would do so.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Tangipa: \u003c/strong>Why do we need to borrow money? If we wanted to appropriate money right now to take care of our veterans, to make affordable housing, you would do so.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There are some Californians who are worried about taking on debt. Yes, these programs will be funded, but the legislative analyst office predicts that it would cost about 500 to 600 million annually to repay this bond for the next 25 years. That’s about a quarter of a percent of the state’s total general fund budget. And since the state has to pay interest, the total cost of this bond would be 15% more than if the state just paid upfront with the money that it already has.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There are some Californians who are worried about taking on debt. Yes, these programs will be funded, but the legislative analyst office predicts that it would cost about 500 to 600 million annually to repay this bond for the next 25 years. That’s about a quarter of a percent of the state’s total general fund budget. And since the state has to pay interest, the total cost of this bond would be 15% more than if the state just paid upfront with the money that it already has.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Interesting. We should also mention that this isn’t the only housing bond on the ballot and not the only one you’re covering.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Interesting. We should also mention that this isn’t the only housing bond on the ballot and not the only one you’re covering.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>That’s right, there’s another bond I’m covering, Prop 37, and it focuses specifically on middle-class homeownership. I think that says something really interesting about how people are feeling about housing affordability right now. It’s clear that this is a top issue for lawmakers, but it’s also a reflection of what they’re hearing from their constituents. It’s clearly a concern for people. And in my conversation with Assemblymember Wix, she mentioned that, you know, if Prop 37… Passes, it could work in tandem with Prop 1 if voters approve both of them. Because it would basically mean that both groups, both low-income residents and middle-class residents, could get the much needed help to afford housing. And it also feels like it’s building off of this national momentum. Congress recently passed the 21st Century Road to Housing Act, which is a huge package of bills, which is also trying to stimulate homeownership, but also home building. And so Wicks is saying that if everything kind of happens and voters approve all of this, it could have a really nice compounding effect, potentially.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>That’s right, there’s another bond I’m covering, Prop 37, and it focuses specifically on middle-class homeownership. I think that says something really interesting about how people are feeling about housing affordability right now. It’s clear that this is a top issue for lawmakers, but it’s also a reflection of what they’re hearing from their constituents. It’s clearly a concern for people. And in my conversation with Assemblymember Wix, she mentioned that, you know, if Prop 37… Passes, it could work in tandem with Prop 1 if voters approve both of them. Because it would basically mean that both groups, both low-income residents and middle-class residents, could get the much needed help to afford housing. And it also feels like it’s building off of this national momentum. Congress recently passed the 21st Century Road to Housing Act, which is a huge package of bills, which is also trying to stimulate homeownership, but also home building. And so Wicks is saying that if everything kind of happens and voters approve all of this, it could have a really nice compounding effect, potentially.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Who is spending to support or oppose Prop 1?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Who is spending to support or oppose Prop 1?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Given the most recent data, the spending is pretty lopsided. So $2.65 million have been spent to support the proposition. That mostly comes from affordable housing groups. Only $7,500 have been spent to oppose this prop, and that mostly come from Reform California, an organization led by Republican assembly member Carl DeMaio, who we heard from earlier.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Given the most recent data, the spending is pretty lopsided. So $2.65 million have been spent to support the proposition. That mostly comes from affordable housing groups. Only $7,500 have been spent to oppose this prop, and that mostly come from Reform California, an organization led by Republican assembly member Carl DeMaio, who we heard from earlier.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Adhiti Bandlamudi is a housing reporter at KQED. Thanks, Adhiti.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Adhiti Bandlamudi is a housing reporter at KQED. Thanks, Adhiti.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Thanks for having me, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Thanks for having me, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 1 means you want California to issue $11.25 billion in bonds for all those housing projects we talked about, targeting primarily low-income families and veterans. And a vote no means you don’t.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 1 means you want California to issue $11.25 billion in bonds for all those housing projects we talked about, targeting primarily low-income families and veterans. And a vote no means you don’t.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for Proposition 1, coming tomorrow is Propositions 2 and 3, so make sure you’re subscribed to The Bay and Bay Curious so you don’t miss a beat. And stay tuned over the next few weeks as we make our way through all 14 statewide propositions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for Proposition 1, coming tomorrow is Propositions 2 and 3, so make sure you’re subscribed to The Bay and Bay Curious so you don’t miss a beat. And stay tuned over the next few weeks as we make our way through all 14 statewide propositions.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Whew, we got a ways to go, Erica.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Whew, we got a ways to go, Erica.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>Laughs\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>Laughs\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Prop Fest is a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It is produced by: Alan Montecillo, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Gabriella Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Prop Fest is a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It is produced by: Alan Montecillo, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Gabriella Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>You can find audio and transcripts for this series at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/propfest\">KQED.org/PropFest\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>You can find audio and transcripts for this series at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/propfest\">KQED.org/PropFest\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you appreciate Prop Fest, please consider becoming a sustaining member of KQED. We cant do this work without you! Become a member at \u003ca href=\"https://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you appreciate Prop Fest, please consider becoming a sustaining member of KQED. We cant do this work without you! Become a member at \u003ca href=\"https://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Have a good one.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Have a good one.\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "Proposition 1 would authorize the state to issue bonds to fund affordable housing programs.",
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"title": "Prop 1: Authorizes California to Issue a $11.25 Billion Bond to Fund Affordable Housing | KQED",
"description": "Proposition 1 would authorize the state to issue bonds to fund affordable housing programs.",
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"headline": "Prop 1: Authorizes California to Issue a $11.25 Billion Bond to Fund Affordable Housing",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>When asked in a recent statewide survey, what’s the most important issue facing Californians today? The top responses were affordability, cost of living, housing costs, and availability.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In other words, nothing new to see here. These are issues that California has struggled with for a long time. On the November ballot this year are a few initiatives that legislators or interest groups think could help. Among them is Proposition 1, which would allow the state to borrow $11.25 billion for housing programs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Here’s how it reads on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Prop 1, authorizes bonds for housing affordability programs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Erika Cruz Guevara, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to PropFest. For the next few weeks, our teams at The Bay and Bay Curious are bringing you breakdowns of each statewide proposition on the California ballot so you can vote with confidence in the November election.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>There are 14 propositions on the ballot this year, and we’ll be taking you through all of them between now and October 9th. We’ll be looking at how they got on the ballet, the arguments for and against each one, talk about how things could play out if they pass, and the money fueling it all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Are you ready for this, Ericka?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Let’s do this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today in our first installment, we’re going through Proposition 1, a housing bond with KQED’s housing reporter, Adhiti Bandlamudi. Welcome, Aditi. Hey, thanks for having me. Let’s start at the top level. What does Proposition one do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>So Prop 1 issues an $11.25 billion bond, mostly for the construction and preservation of affordable housing. Included in that $11,25 billion, there’s a $1.25 million portion that goes towards the CalVet home loan program, which helps veterans become homeowners. The legislative analyst’s office did a report on Prop 1, and it says the money from this bond could build up to 40,000 rental units. And it could help 40,000 households buy a home. So in total, it could help more than 80,000 families stay housed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right, so we’re at the beginning of PropFest. We’re kind of getting our brains in the right place for all this stuff. Can you remind us how bonds work?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so most of this bond, about $10 billion, is a general obligation bond, also called a GO bond. A state-issued GO bond means that the government will borrow money from investors or anyone who buys the bonds and will then pay it back with interest over the next 25 years out of California’s general fund. It’s kind of like a mortgage. And then The $1.25 billion for the Veterans Home Buying Assistance Program. That is also a go-bond, but it’s self-supporting, meaning that it’ll be repaid through home loans that veterans take out through the program.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea how that $11.25 billion will be spent if this passes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>It is going to be split into a bunch of different programs. So let me break it down. So a very large chunk, about 5.1 billion, goes towards the multifamily housing program, which is this really big state program for affordable housing development. Some of the units that are built under this program have to be available for extremely low income households who are at risk of becoming homeless. And that money can be used towards the construction, rehabilitation, or preservation of affordable housing. About a billion dollars goes towards supportive housing through the multifamily housing program. Supportive housing basically, it’s housing that comes with wraparound services, stuff like drug abuse support, counseling, help finding a job, and that’s specifically for people who were chronically homeless or who are at risk of becoming chronically harmless. The bond also goes towards a bunch of other programs like making existing cities more dense, housing for farm workers, students, tribes, and other groups. And then, as we talked about before, there’s 1.25 billion which goes towards the CalVet program, and then another 1.1 billion that goes towards programs which promote home ownership for other groups\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Wow, so really funding a pretty big number of programs there. Very much so. This proposition was placed on the ballot by the California legislature. So we know it’s something that at least the majority of our elected officials want to see passed. How does Prop 1 play into larger goals that the state has for housing?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>This proposition has been many years in the making and affordable housing advocates say, it’s a long time coming. So there was a bond voters passed in 2018 that was called the Veterans and Affordable Housing Bond Act. It was also called Prop 1. There’s no deja vu, like that is very similar to this year’s bond. But the 2018 bond was for $4 billion. Similar to this year’s bond that was split into funding for affordable housing and the CalVet program. That funding very quickly ran out in 2023 due to overwhelming demand. Housing advocates say we need more money for these programs and so this year, bond money would basically replace those exhausted funds. I talked with assembly member Buffy Wicks. She represents Berkeley and she’s been working on getting this bond on the ballot for the past four years. She says that every election cycle, lawmakers will fight for a bond for one cause or another, whether it’s housing, climate, schools, transportation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Buffy Wicks: \u003c/strong>But there’s really only so much bond debt we can take on as a state So we want to be mindful because every dollar we’ve put into a bond is we’re sort of borrowing from our future self\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>And last election cycle, the housing bond lost out to the climate bond and won about school facilities. From then until now, WIC says that money for affordable housing got really tight, partially because the state has allocated less and less for these programs in the state budget in recent years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Buffy Wicks: \u003c/strong>This year, the housing bond really became the priority because we’re running out of these resources. And so it was very clear from the assembly, the Senate and the governor that this was the top priority this year is to get it on the ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Wicks says there are about 40,000 shovel-ready affordable housing projects ready to break ground, but they need just a little bit more money to close their financing and actually put the shovels in the ground. She said that this bond could bridge that funding gap for those projects.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re going to take a quick break, but when we return, we’ll learn who is supporting the measure and hear from the opposition. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back with more on Proposition 1, a bond for housing affordability programs. Adhiti, who is supporting Prop 1.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There are a lot of Democratic lawmakers who supported this bond when it was working its way through the legislature, but there are also a bunch of organizations that support it, including the California Association of Veterans, ACLU California Action, United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America, the California Apartment Association, and so many others. Governor Gavin Newsom also supports this bill. And what about the opposition? So, there isn’t a formal opposition campaign. But there are a handful of Republican lawmakers who voted against the bill while it was in the legislature. Their main concern is that number one, it’s called the Veterans and Affordable Housing Bond Act of 2026, but only 1.25 billion out of the 11 billion goes towards veterans. Here’s state assembly member Carl DeMaio. He represents San Diego. He was speaking on the assembly floor back in June.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio: \u003c/strong>Let’s get the vets and let’s put them front and center and say it’s all about the vats. Everyone loves veterans, shameful. The window dressing on an absolutely awful package.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Mm, I see, so arguing it’s not right to have the word veterans in there when only about 11% of this bond measure is actually for veterans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s their argument. Their other concern is that the state would be borrowing money if this bond passes, and that could be bad news for future taxpayers. Assemblymember David Tangipa, he represents Fresno. He also spoke about that on that same assembly floor session.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Tangipa: \u003c/strong>Why do we need to borrow money? If we wanted to appropriate money right now to take care of our veterans, to make affordable housing, you would do so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There are some Californians who are worried about taking on debt. Yes, these programs will be funded, but the legislative analyst office predicts that it would cost about 500 to 600 million annually to repay this bond for the next 25 years. That’s about a quarter of a percent of the state’s total general fund budget. And since the state has to pay interest, the total cost of this bond would be 15% more than if the state just paid upfront with the money that it already has.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Interesting. We should also mention that this isn’t the only housing bond on the ballot and not the only one you’re covering.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>That’s right, there’s another bond I’m covering, Prop 37, and it focuses specifically on middle-class homeownership. I think that says something really interesting about how people are feeling about housing affordability right now. It’s clear that this is a top issue for lawmakers, but it’s also a reflection of what they’re hearing from their constituents. It’s clearly a concern for people. And in my conversation with Assemblymember Wix, she mentioned that, you know, if Prop 37… Passes, it could work in tandem with Prop 1 if voters approve both of them. Because it would basically mean that both groups, both low-income residents and middle-class residents, could get the much needed help to afford housing. And it also feels like it’s building off of this national momentum. Congress recently passed the 21st Century Road to Housing Act, which is a huge package of bills, which is also trying to stimulate homeownership, but also home building. And so Wicks is saying that if everything kind of happens and voters approve all of this, it could have a really nice compounding effect, potentially.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Who is spending to support or oppose Prop 1?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Given the most recent data, the spending is pretty lopsided. So $2.65 million have been spent to support the proposition. That mostly comes from affordable housing groups. Only $7,500 have been spent to oppose this prop, and that mostly come from Reform California, an organization led by Republican assembly member Carl DeMaio, who we heard from earlier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Adhiti Bandlamudi is a housing reporter at KQED. Thanks, Adhiti.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Thanks for having me, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 1 means you want California to issue $11.25 billion in bonds for all those housing projects we talked about, targeting primarily low-income families and veterans. And a vote no means you don’t.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for Proposition 1, coming tomorrow is Propositions 2 and 3, so make sure you’re subscribed to The Bay and Bay Curious so you don’t miss a beat. And stay tuned over the next few weeks as we make our way through all 14 statewide propositions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Whew, we got a ways to go, Erica.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>Laughs\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Prop Fest is a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It is produced by: Alan Montecillo, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Gabriella Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>You can find audio and transcripts for this series at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/propfest\">KQED.org/PropFest\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you appreciate Prop Fest, please consider becoming a sustaining member of KQED. We cant do this work without you! Become a member at \u003ca href=\"https://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Have a good one.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "why-is-piedmont-a-separate-city-from-oakland-2",
"title": "Why Is Piedmont a Separate City From Oakland? Bay Curious Explains",
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"headTitle": "Why Is Piedmont a Separate City From Oakland? Bay Curious Explains | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This story was first published on April 4, 2019, and was updated on Feb. 1, 2024, to reflect updated census data.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of a geographical oddity. It’s not even 2 square miles in size and is surrounded on all sides by Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you look closely, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/maps/place/Piedmont,+CA/@37.8249429,-122.2441171,5564m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80857d7f7f19c5f5:0xb8deddc8c24bd3f!8m2!3d37.8243715!4d-122.231635\">town’s borders\u003c/a> seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around, sometimes through the middle of homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> listener David Levine has long wondered what’s up with this doughnut hole in the middle of Oakland. He asked, “Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s worth understanding the history, and then we can ask questions as a community, ‘Is that still relevant today?'” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course, but as soon as we started digging around, we quickly found that the story of Piedmont starts in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Little City That Could\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population,” said Oakland librarian Steve Lavoie, who curated an exhibit on Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737640\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737640 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/oyy29ensdzi7cg2d-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An illustration in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1909. \u003ccite>(Oakland Tribune/Oakland History Room)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group, who felt that small cities were rife for corruption,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These leaders thought that the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something — like raid the treasury or discourage business competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific Coast at the time,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This large city could come together only if they could convince all of the neighboring towns or communities without their own governments to join Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Expanding the Boundaries\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns, whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1872, it annexed the town of Brooklyn. Twenty-five years later came Temescal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley turned Oakland down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Each annexation required a vote by the people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard said, “It wasn’t like an aggressive kinda corporate takeover. It was more negotiation with various town councils.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737625 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1200x675.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1920x1080.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard points out Oakland’s various annexations. \u003ccite>(Chris Hambrick/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>A Wrinkle in the Plan\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon, Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The City Council took a measure to vote an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets,” Steve Lavoie said. Oakland’s City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposed annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081625\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Oakland City Hall in Oakland on April 28, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and business people, filed a petition to hold their \u003cem>own \u003c/em>election to become a city. They hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped if they could beat Oakland to the punch. They saw how densely populated Oakland was, and they didn’t want any part of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont historian Ann Swift said convincing other Piedmonters to incorporate was no easy feat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Hugh Craig and James Ballentine were the two leaders of the incorporation effort, and they are having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city,” she said. “But there was also opposition. It was not a slam dunk.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A Tragic Loss\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The \u003ca href=\"http://piedmonthistorical.org/banner1.html\">Piedmont Springs Hotel\u003c/a>, which was a great, huge, three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That grand hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction — a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s Fire Department was summoned to come put out the fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737636\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737636 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"2150\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-160x430.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-446x1200.jpg 446w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping.jpg 762w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The top story in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1892, told the news of the devastating fire. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://www.eastbaytimes.com/location/oakland/\">Oakland Tribune/\u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/\">Newspapers.com\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“In those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you,” Swift said. “Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagon’s got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else watching the embers burn.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It took Oakland’s Fire Department two hours to get to the hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire,” Swift said. “So Piedmonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service, wanting someone right there in the center of this 1.8 square miles.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>To Join or Not To Join\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all these city services like street sprinkling. Back in the day, the streets were mostly unpaved, and especially in the summer, you had water trucks that went through the city and watered down the streets so that it wasn’t so dusty,” Swift said. “Well, Piedmont had no water street-dusting things, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Eighteen more men voted to become a city than voted to not become a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont was officially a city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward. And in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. The vote was 63–43. But this was impossible now that Piedmont was its own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate [Piedmont]. So they hold another election in September, and more people voted to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than voted to stay a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So then, why is Piedmont separate today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s one of those little nuggets of law that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12094662\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12094662\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1273\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128-160x103.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128-1536x988.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Piedmont Springs Park Club House, Oakland, California, Postcard from 1898 – 1931 \u003ccite>(Sepia Times/Universal Images Group via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Piedmont stayed a separate city, but its edges weave in and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries — a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It means that there are 136 parcels … a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland, and/or, where one side of the street is in Piedmont and the other side of the street is in Oakland, like Rose Avenue,” Swift said. “Sewer boundaries wouldn’t ever be what you would want to use in defining city boundaries. You’d want to use streets or major roads. But they didn’t have that choice, so we’re stuck with it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Piedmont/Oakland Relations Today\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The question-asker wondered about the class and racial divide many see separating Piedmont from Oakland. Host Olivia Allen-Price and reporter Chris Hambrick spoke about it at the end of the episode. Here is the transcript.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Liam O’Donoghue, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://eastbayyesterday.com/\">East Bay Yesterday podcast\u003c/a>, contributed to the research on this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of geographical oddity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I looked at a map and I saw that Piedmont was almost like a doughnut hole in the center of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is David Levine, our question-asker today. On the map, he saw this tiny city, not even two square miles in size, surrounded on all sides by the city of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you take a close look, the borders of Piedmont seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around — sometimes through the middle of homes. All this got David wondering ….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Bay Curious, the podcast that explores the Bay Area one \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">question at a time. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This week we’re bringing you the wild, unexpected origin story of the city of Piedmont. This story first aired in 2019, but it’s a topic we still get questions about on the regular. So, Piedmont fans, Piedmont detractors, and all you generally curious people — stick around for some answers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course. But as soon as we started digging, we found out…. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … The story of Piedmont starts in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … Reporter Chris Hambrick brings us the tale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begins)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Steve Lavoie. He’s an Oakland librarian who curated an exhibit on Piedmont history. This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group who felt that small cities were ripe for corruption. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They thought the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something like raid the treasury or discourage competition among businesses. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music fades)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific coast at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This large city could only come together if they could convince all of the neighboring towns and communities without their own government to join Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begin)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voices:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Temescal. Brooklyn. Fruitvale. Elmhurst. Melrose. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>They tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley said, “No, thanks.”\u003c/span> Each annexation required a vote by people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it wasn’t like an aggressive kind of corporate takeover or anything. It was more negotiation with various town councils. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard. Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city council took a measure to vote, an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont, and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907. But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts that they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(dramatic music starts)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposes annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and businesspeople, filed a petition to hold their own election to become a city. If they could beat Oakland to the punch, they hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped. Piedmont historian Ann Swift says convincing other Piedmont to incorporate was no easy feat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city. But there was also opposition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Piedmont Springs Hotel, which was a great huge three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That Grand Hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction, a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s fire department was summoned to come out the fire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because in those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you. Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagons got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else, watching the embers burn. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It took Oakland’s fire department a whopping two hours to get to the hotel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire. So Pidemonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all the city services, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Eighteen more men voted to become a city, than voted to not become a city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward, and in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. But this was impossible, now that Piedmont was its own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So the only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate a city. So they hold another election in September, and more people vote to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than vote to stay a city. So I always ask the school kids, well, so how come I’m not talking to you in Oakland City Hall? It’s one of those little nuggets of lore that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont stayed a separate city, with its edges within and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries. It was a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick (in tape):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It means that there are 136 parcels, a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, Chris, it sounds like Piedmont will continue to be sort of this city within a city, you know, the Vatican of the East Bay, if you will. Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A big thanks to Bay Curious listener David Levine for asking this week’s question. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Liam O’Donohue, the host and creator of the East Bay Yesterday podcast, was a big help with the research on this story. If you haven’t checked out Liam’s podcast yet, I highly suggest you give it a try. Just search East Bay yesterday. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Bay Curious is produced in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. The show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This story was first published on April 4, 2019, and was updated on Feb. 1, 2024, to reflect updated census data.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of a geographical oddity. It’s not even 2 square miles in size and is surrounded on all sides by Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you look closely, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/maps/place/Piedmont,+CA/@37.8249429,-122.2441171,5564m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80857d7f7f19c5f5:0xb8deddc8c24bd3f!8m2!3d37.8243715!4d-122.231635\">town’s borders\u003c/a> seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around, sometimes through the middle of homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> listener David Levine has long wondered what’s up with this doughnut hole in the middle of Oakland. He asked, “Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s worth understanding the history, and then we can ask questions as a community, ‘Is that still relevant today?'” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course, but as soon as we started digging around, we quickly found that the story of Piedmont starts in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Little City That Could\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population,” said Oakland librarian Steve Lavoie, who curated an exhibit on Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737640\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737640 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/oyy29ensdzi7cg2d-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An illustration in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1909. \u003ccite>(Oakland Tribune/Oakland History Room)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group, who felt that small cities were rife for corruption,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These leaders thought that the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something — like raid the treasury or discourage business competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific Coast at the time,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This large city could come together only if they could convince all of the neighboring towns or communities without their own governments to join Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Expanding the Boundaries\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns, whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1872, it annexed the town of Brooklyn. Twenty-five years later came Temescal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley turned Oakland down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Each annexation required a vote by the people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard said, “It wasn’t like an aggressive kinda corporate takeover. It was more negotiation with various town councils.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737625 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1200x675.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1920x1080.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard points out Oakland’s various annexations. \u003ccite>(Chris Hambrick/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>A Wrinkle in the Plan\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon, Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The City Council took a measure to vote an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets,” Steve Lavoie said. Oakland’s City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposed annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081625\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Oakland City Hall in Oakland on April 28, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and business people, filed a petition to hold their \u003cem>own \u003c/em>election to become a city. They hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped if they could beat Oakland to the punch. They saw how densely populated Oakland was, and they didn’t want any part of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont historian Ann Swift said convincing other Piedmonters to incorporate was no easy feat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Hugh Craig and James Ballentine were the two leaders of the incorporation effort, and they are having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city,” she said. “But there was also opposition. It was not a slam dunk.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A Tragic Loss\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The \u003ca href=\"http://piedmonthistorical.org/banner1.html\">Piedmont Springs Hotel\u003c/a>, which was a great, huge, three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That grand hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction — a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s Fire Department was summoned to come put out the fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737636\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737636 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"2150\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-160x430.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-446x1200.jpg 446w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping.jpg 762w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The top story in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1892, told the news of the devastating fire. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://www.eastbaytimes.com/location/oakland/\">Oakland Tribune/\u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/\">Newspapers.com\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“In those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you,” Swift said. “Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagon’s got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else watching the embers burn.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It took Oakland’s Fire Department two hours to get to the hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire,” Swift said. “So Piedmonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service, wanting someone right there in the center of this 1.8 square miles.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>To Join or Not To Join\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all these city services like street sprinkling. Back in the day, the streets were mostly unpaved, and especially in the summer, you had water trucks that went through the city and watered down the streets so that it wasn’t so dusty,” Swift said. “Well, Piedmont had no water street-dusting things, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Eighteen more men voted to become a city than voted to not become a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont was officially a city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward. And in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. The vote was 63–43. But this was impossible now that Piedmont was its own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate [Piedmont]. So they hold another election in September, and more people voted to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than voted to stay a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So then, why is Piedmont separate today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s one of those little nuggets of law that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12094662\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12094662\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1273\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128-160x103.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128-1536x988.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Piedmont Springs Park Club House, Oakland, California, Postcard from 1898 – 1931 \u003ccite>(Sepia Times/Universal Images Group via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Piedmont stayed a separate city, but its edges weave in and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries — a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It means that there are 136 parcels … a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland, and/or, where one side of the street is in Piedmont and the other side of the street is in Oakland, like Rose Avenue,” Swift said. “Sewer boundaries wouldn’t ever be what you would want to use in defining city boundaries. You’d want to use streets or major roads. But they didn’t have that choice, so we’re stuck with it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Piedmont/Oakland Relations Today\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The question-asker wondered about the class and racial divide many see separating Piedmont from Oakland. Host Olivia Allen-Price and reporter Chris Hambrick spoke about it at the end of the episode. Here is the transcript.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Liam O’Donoghue, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://eastbayyesterday.com/\">East Bay Yesterday podcast\u003c/a>, contributed to the research on this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of geographical oddity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I looked at a map and I saw that Piedmont was almost like a doughnut hole in the center of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is David Levine, our question-asker today. On the map, he saw this tiny city, not even two square miles in size, surrounded on all sides by the city of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you take a close look, the borders of Piedmont seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around — sometimes through the middle of homes. All this got David wondering ….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Bay Curious, the podcast that explores the Bay Area one \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">question at a time. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This week we’re bringing you the wild, unexpected origin story of the city of Piedmont. This story first aired in 2019, but it’s a topic we still get questions about on the regular. So, Piedmont fans, Piedmont detractors, and all you generally curious people — stick around for some answers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course. But as soon as we started digging, we found out…. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … The story of Piedmont starts in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … Reporter Chris Hambrick brings us the tale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begins)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Steve Lavoie. He’s an Oakland librarian who curated an exhibit on Piedmont history. This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group who felt that small cities were ripe for corruption. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They thought the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something like raid the treasury or discourage competition among businesses. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music fades)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific coast at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This large city could only come together if they could convince all of the neighboring towns and communities without their own government to join Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begin)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voices:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Temescal. Brooklyn. Fruitvale. Elmhurst. Melrose. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>They tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley said, “No, thanks.”\u003c/span> Each annexation required a vote by people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it wasn’t like an aggressive kind of corporate takeover or anything. It was more negotiation with various town councils. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard. Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city council took a measure to vote, an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont, and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907. But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts that they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(dramatic music starts)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposes annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and businesspeople, filed a petition to hold their own election to become a city. If they could beat Oakland to the punch, they hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped. Piedmont historian Ann Swift says convincing other Piedmont to incorporate was no easy feat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city. But there was also opposition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Piedmont Springs Hotel, which was a great huge three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That Grand Hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction, a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s fire department was summoned to come out the fire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because in those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you. Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagons got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else, watching the embers burn. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It took Oakland’s fire department a whopping two hours to get to the hotel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire. So Pidemonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all the city services, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Eighteen more men voted to become a city, than voted to not become a city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward, and in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. But this was impossible, now that Piedmont was its own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So the only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate a city. So they hold another election in September, and more people vote to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than vote to stay a city. So I always ask the school kids, well, so how come I’m not talking to you in Oakland City Hall? It’s one of those little nuggets of lore that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont stayed a separate city, with its edges within and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries. It was a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick (in tape):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It means that there are 136 parcels, a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, Chris, it sounds like Piedmont will continue to be sort of this city within a city, you know, the Vatican of the East Bay, if you will. Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A big thanks to Bay Curious listener David Levine for asking this week’s question. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Liam O’Donohue, the host and creator of the East Bay Yesterday podcast, was a big help with the research on this story. If you haven’t checked out Liam’s podcast yet, I highly suggest you give it a try. Just search East Bay yesterday. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Bay Curious is produced in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. The show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "san-francisco-is-quietly-removing-911-peer-responders",
"title": "San Francisco Is Quietly Removing 911 Peer Responders",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>This episode contains mentions of suicide. If you or someone you know is in crisis, call or text 988.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Starting August 14, San Francisco will remove peer specialists from its 911 response. These peer responders, equipped with both training and personal experience with issues like homelessness and addiction, say the decision is a regressive step in the city’s approach to mental and behavioral health emergencies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC6632110452&light=true\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092836/these-peers-provided-alternative-911-responders-san-francisco-is-removing-them\">These Peers Provided Alternative 911 Responders. San Francisco Is Removing Them\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode transcript\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript is computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:57] \u003c/em>Hey, just a quick note before we get started. This episode includes mentions of suicide and addiction. Please take care while listening. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. It was early one morning outside of a cafe in San Francisco when Chantel Hernandez-Wood, who was homeless and in the throes of her addiction, was told she had to move. She wasn’t sure what her next move would be or where she’d go next, when about a block up, she saw a red van and made a decision that would change her life forever. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:47] \u003c/em>So I walked up there and I knocked on the window and I said, ‘I need help.’ \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:56] \u003c/em>It was San Francisco’s street crisis response team who respond to 911 calls alongside peer counselors, people who’ve had personal experience with homelessness, addiction, or mental illness.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:17] \u003c/em>And they took me to a sobering center. And from there I was placed in a detox and there I, I was in a 90 day program. And while I was sitting there in the 90 day program, I thought, you know, I’d really love to do what they were doing. They went above and beyond to help me get off the streets. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:40] \u003c/em>Today, Chantel is a peer counselor herself, working alongside emergency responders to help people suffering on the streets of San Francisco. It’s a program that’s been going on since 2020.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:57] \u003c/em>When someone says, I know how you’re feeling, I know what you’re going through, everybody can say that, but I really know what that feels like to be that individual. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:08] \u003c/em>But this program is about to change. Starting August 14, peer counselors will no longer accompany emergency responders on 911 calls. And advocates worry that without the firsthand expertise of peer counselors, more people will fall through the cracks. Today, what the end of peer support could mean for San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:40] \u003c/em>You’ll probably remember, in 2020, following the killing of George Floyd and several other police brutality incidents, there were protests all over the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:52] \u003c/em>Sydney Johnson is a reporter for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:56] \u003c/em>Calls for defunding the police. And, you know, those protests were happening here in the Bay Area. Even though San Francisco never defunded the police, there was a lot of interest in creating these sort of alternatives to having law enforcement and police respond to certain 911 emergencies. And one of those was the street crisis response team. These folks would drive around in red vans and they would respond to 911 calls for mental health emergencies. This could be happening on the street, someone having a psychiatric breakdown or potentially a domestic dispute up in a penthouse. It really ran the gamut. The teams were made up of EMTs, behavioral health clinicians, and peer responders. Peer responders were one of the more unique elements of this alternative response idea because they are not sworn officers, they did not arrive in uniform. They have lived experience, you know, with incarceration or potentially having gone through a mental health crisis themselves, substance use disorder. Having these types of experience that they’ve lived through. Was the expertise that the peers were bringing to these emergency responses also. And that group, the street crisis response team has been operating in San Francisco for about the last five years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:40] \u003c/em>Yeah, I remember the context of this time, I mean, just going back to 2020, like so many conversations and examples of, I mean really one too many people in the midst of a mental health crisis ending up in either jails or the emergency rooms and not necessarily getting the help that they need. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:01] \u003c/em>Yeah, I mean, I think this was something that San Francisco had been talking about. How do we take some responsibilities off of the plate of police officers? And so there was also this thinking not of just how do we offer people who are going through crises potentially someone that they might relate to a little bit more in these scenarios, but also how do we make this whole system more efficient by pulling some of these responsibilities off of law enforcement’s plate. Maybe if there’s someone who’s trained in de-escalation, maybe we don’t have to send police in for backup. And actually, that was one of the outcomes of this program. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Harmon: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:40] \u003c/em>We’re a team for people that are crashing out and the crash out could look any type of way. If you have less money, you’re going to crash out more. That’s just the way it goes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:49] \u003c/em>Amelia Harmon manages many of the peer responders for this program, which is part of the fire department. The street crisis response team falls under the fire department umbrella. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Harmon: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:01] \u003c/em>I’ve responded to panic attacks and first episode psychoses in penthouses. I have responded to, you know, the craziest wildest condos in Knob Hill, where people all of a sudden, like, fell off their medication and now their husband is calling on them because they’ve never seen them act like this before and they’re pulling out their hair. I’ve respond to calls in the marina where I literally just had to play with a woman’s baby while she was having a panic attack because her husband walked out on her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:26] \u003c/em>In a lot of circumstances, first responders have a lot calls that they have to respond to. And they might be like: OK, there’s not a life and death situation happening here. We got to get to the next spot. And so something that Amelia has talked about that these peers can offer is just a little bit more of that human touch of making sure that people have what they need, even if the crisis has started to deescalate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Harmon: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:52] \u003c/em>But on many, many calls, it really is the peer counselor that the people will disclose to, because in my capacity as a peer counselor, I can tell someone that I was suicidal. I can them how complicated it is to be recovering from depression, but still being suicidal, and managing the symptoms of how often I think about killing myself per day. And if I showed improvement of what that looks like, and I could show that to someone that’s currently struggling, that would help them accept the services. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:18] \u003c/em>How is training for these peer responders different from a typical emergency first responders? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:26] \u003c/em>I mean, you can take classes at San Francisco City College to be a peer responder, but you’re not necessarily getting the training of how to actually stop bleeding in a bullet wound. That is its own sort of set of training, but they are trained in just working with vulnerable populations and basically kind of learn how to translate what they’ve experienced into a bigger context of what did I need in those situations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:59] \u003c/em>You know, when someone says, I know how you’re feeling, I know what you’re going through, you know, everybody can say that, but I really know what that feels like to be that individual. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:12] \u003c/em>I spoke with one of the peer responders. Her name is Chantelle Hernandez-Wood, and she is formerly unhoused and struggled with alcoholism in the past. After going through her own recovery journey, she became one of these peer responders \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:29] \u003c/em>It’s just surreal because I’m working on the same team that helps me when I needed help the most.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:41] \u003c/em>And so Chantel said there were just experience after experience where she would kind of be that first line of, how do we help you? And kind of breaking it down like, hey, I’ve been here before, too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:55] \u003c/em>And I imagine really the goal being to get people access to the help that they need. And that being really the measurement of success for many of these peer responders. I mean, it’s been about five to six years since this program has been around. It sounds like anecdotally, there is this sense, at least among the responders themselves, that they have a really important role to play. But do we know how effective this program has actually been at getting people help?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:25] \u003c/em>There was a study that NYU did in 2024, so it’s been about two years, taking a look at San Francisco’s street crisis response team and these sort of alternatives that came up after 2020. And it really hails San Francisco as a model in this. And this study from NYU, you know, did say that their investments are showing positive results. It said that they the street crisis response team responds to roughly 29 calls a day in an average of 16 minutes each, and that in the vast majority of those calls, the police are not called upon for backup, which would save police resources and indicate that some of this care can be provided without police presence. So that’s pretty high marks for a program that was relatively new and in some regards experimental. Now, fast forward, the city has been really chipping away at this program.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:34] \u003c/em>Coming up, why San Francisco is taking peer support counselors off its streets and what it means going forward. By the way, if you want to support the work that we do here at KQED, consider becoming a KQED member, which you could do at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:41] \u003c/em>I mean, we are talking now because these peers are being removed from the street crisis response team in San Francisco. Why?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:52] \u003c/em>“Why?” Is a very difficult question. I’ll back up actually to just say how this first got on my radar, actually. Amelia Harmon, who we chatted about earlier, she received information at a fire department commission meeting that the fire department was moving to pull peers off of these 911 response teams and that August 14th would be their last day. You know, she manages these people. She had not heard about this. No one had communicated this to her directly. This was a complete surprise to her. That’s what she says. It was a completely surprise. They hadn’t heard that the program was, you know, not performing or meeting expectations. She has, for the last several weeks, gone and spoken at multiple public meetings, the Health Commission, the Police Commission, Board of Supervisors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Harmon: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:47] \u003c/em>Hi, good evening supervisors. My name is Amelia, District 9, speaking in my individual capacity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:53] \u003c/em>Trying to tell people in positions of power, like, this is happening, and ask them, did you know? Like, is there a reason why? Like is anyone concerned about this? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Harmon: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:14:05] \u003c/em>From frontline workers to directors. No one that I spoke to had heard it anywhere else. They count on the non-uniformed peer support backed by our traditional first responders when they call 911 for their people, our people. One person on foot door to door. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:14:24] \u003c/em>Ultimately, this was a decision from the fire department. And when I reached out to the fire department to ask about it, they said that this was very carefully considered decision. They are not getting rid of the street crisis response team, that the street crises response team will still exist. But they are moving peers off of these rigs. And when I tried to push a little bit more on why, the reasoning that I was given was that it has been difficult scheduling with the peers themselves. They are not stationed at the firehouse or with the paramedics. There has to be sort of. An arrangement for a pickup along some of these routes. But yeah, it ultimately has come down to the fire department just deciding that this was not working for their vision for the program.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:15:20] \u003c/em>Yeah, it’s interesting that the reasoning is not something like this program isn’t working. It’s just sort of like an administrative issue. So then what does that then mean for, I mean, who is doing the work now of this sort of non-emergency emergency response in San Francisco?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:15:40] \u003c/em>Yeah, I mean, the city and the fire department is simultaneously working to expand and develop trained paramedics who have this additional layer of training in many of the things that the peers and behavioral health specialists brought to these rigs. Things like trauma informed responses, you know, extra training in how to direct people to certain social services. But you know what is different about the community paramedic versus the Dear Responders, is, you know, it’s subtle, but it’s important. This is what Amelia had to say about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Harmon: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:17] \u003c/em>They come in uniforms and they come in steel-toed boots, and that matters. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:20] \u003c/em>They may not necessarily have the lived experience that a peer brought also, which was kind of at the core of what these peer responders were offering to people who were in crisis. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:34] \u003c/em>And again, that’s just not an experience that you can sit in a classroom and do a two hour training. Right. And I mean, I guess I wonder what someone like Chantal or Amelia worry that the city will really miss when it moves away from prioritizing this firsthand experience to help deal with some of the city’s most pressing issues. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:58] \u003c/em>Yeah, I mean both of them are pretty gutted. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:17:02] \u003c/em>Like I’ve been blindsided. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:17:03] \u003c/em>Chantel talked to me about this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:17:05] \u003c/em>It’s just an incredible disservice to the community. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:17:08] \u003c/em>The rollout of this has been confusing, and a lot of people seem to not know what’s going on. But Chantal just said there’s been so many times in which she’s seen people on the street who specifically reached out to her in these moments.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:17:27] \u003c/em>It sounds like they’re worried that this is just gonna mean that fewer people are gonna get help when they’re in crisis in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:17:34] \u003c/em>Yeah, I think that’s that’s kind of one of the biggest fears that both Chantel and Amelia have is that if peers are no longer in these on these 911 calls that there will be people who fall through the cracks. You know, when I spoke to Chantell, I asked her, what is your plan after August 14th? You know? What are you going to do after you’re no longer going to be on these 911 calls? And You know, they still don’t know what’s going to be sort of their new offering or position or even if there’s going to be layoffs. But one thing that’s been suggested, I guess, maybe unofficially, is that these peer responders would be shifted to respond to 3-1-1 calls, these non-emergency sort of like handling like, you know, we need unhoused people to move. It’s very different from a 9-1 call. And Chantel just said that feels like. Very different from the expertise she’s been developing over the last few years in kind of these more emergency kind of healthcare sort of driven settings. And so if that is what she’s offered, she’s going to look for something else. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:18:46] \u003c/em>I mean, Sydney, it does seem like so much of the context that we’re living in has changed since 2020 and these conversations around these alternatives to policing, defunding the police. It feels like the conversations really swung in the opposite direction in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:19:04] \u003c/em>Yeah, it probably has swung in the opposite direction in a lot of places in the country. Yeah. But when you think about the conversations that were being had in 2020 and 2021 about, you know, having these alternatives to policing or, you know, even having hearings in City Hall about what defunding the police would look like, you know, Even though that didn’t happen, it was, you know, still something that city officials were talking about and considering. We are so far from that now. You know, the police budget has only increased. There has been a huge push towards public safety, you know, just as a rallying cry in San Francisco. Within the conversation of public safety. You know homelessness and drug use and mental health often gets wrapped into that. And, you know sometimes unfairly, sometimes not. But I think what we’ve seen is also more arrests for people who are refusing shelter or who are using drugs outside. Obviously, these peer responders were not only handling street-level issues, but I think that moving them off of these 911 calls does signal a return to the more traditional policing approach that we saw. Before these conversations were had.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:20:41] \u003c/em>Well Sydney, thank you so much for sharing your reporting with me. I appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:57] \u003c/em>Hey, just a quick note before we get started. This episode includes mentions of suicide and addiction. Please take care while listening. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. It was early one morning outside of a cafe in San Francisco when Chantel Hernandez-Wood, who was homeless and in the throes of her addiction, was told she had to move. She wasn’t sure what her next move would be or where she’d go next, when about a block up, she saw a red van and made a decision that would change her life forever. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:57] \u003c/em>Hey, just a quick note before we get started. This episode includes mentions of suicide and addiction. Please take care while listening. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. It was early one morning outside of a cafe in San Francisco when Chantel Hernandez-Wood, who was homeless and in the throes of her addiction, was told she had to move. She wasn’t sure what her next move would be or where she’d go next, when about a block up, she saw a red van and made a decision that would change her life forever. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:47] \u003c/em>So I walked up there and I knocked on the window and I said, ‘I need help.’ \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:47] \u003c/em>So I walked up there and I knocked on the window and I said, ‘I need help.’ \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:56] \u003c/em>It was San Francisco’s street crisis response team who respond to 911 calls alongside peer counselors, people who’ve had personal experience with homelessness, addiction, or mental illness.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:17] \u003c/em>And they took me to a sobering center. And from there I was placed in a detox and there I, I was in a 90 day program. And while I was sitting there in the 90 day program, I thought, you know, I’d really love to do what they were doing. They went above and beyond to help me get off the streets. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:17] \u003c/em>And they took me to a sobering center. And from there I was placed in a detox and there I, I was in a 90 day program. And while I was sitting there in the 90 day program, I thought, you know, I’d really love to do what they were doing. They went above and beyond to help me get off the streets. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:40] \u003c/em>Today, Chantel is a peer counselor herself, working alongside emergency responders to help people suffering on the streets of San Francisco. It’s a program that’s been going on since 2020.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:57] \u003c/em>When someone says, I know how you’re feeling, I know what you’re going through, everybody can say that, but I really know what that feels like to be that individual. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:57] \u003c/em>When someone says, I know how you’re feeling, I know what you’re going through, everybody can say that, but I really know what that feels like to be that individual. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:08] \u003c/em>But this program is about to change. Starting August 14, peer counselors will no longer accompany emergency responders on 911 calls. And advocates worry that without the firsthand expertise of peer counselors, more people will fall through the cracks. Today, what the end of peer support could mean for San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:08] \u003c/em>But this program is about to change. Starting August 14, peer counselors will no longer accompany emergency responders on 911 calls. And advocates worry that without the firsthand expertise of peer counselors, more people will fall through the cracks. Today, what the end of peer support could mean for San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:40] \u003c/em>You’ll probably remember, in 2020, following the killing of George Floyd and several other police brutality incidents, there were protests all over the country.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:40] \u003c/em>You’ll probably remember, in 2020, following the killing of George Floyd and several other police brutality incidents, there were protests all over the country.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:52] \u003c/em>Sydney Johnson is a reporter for KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:56] \u003c/em>Calls for defunding the police. And, you know, those protests were happening here in the Bay Area. Even though San Francisco never defunded the police, there was a lot of interest in creating these sort of alternatives to having law enforcement and police respond to certain 911 emergencies. And one of those was the street crisis response team. These folks would drive around in red vans and they would respond to 911 calls for mental health emergencies. This could be happening on the street, someone having a psychiatric breakdown or potentially a domestic dispute up in a penthouse. It really ran the gamut. The teams were made up of EMTs, behavioral health clinicians, and peer responders. Peer responders were one of the more unique elements of this alternative response idea because they are not sworn officers, they did not arrive in uniform. They have lived experience, you know, with incarceration or potentially having gone through a mental health crisis themselves, substance use disorder. Having these types of experience that they’ve lived through. Was the expertise that the peers were bringing to these emergency responses also. And that group, the street crisis response team has been operating in San Francisco for about the last five years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:56] \u003c/em>Calls for defunding the police. And, you know, those protests were happening here in the Bay Area. Even though San Francisco never defunded the police, there was a lot of interest in creating these sort of alternatives to having law enforcement and police respond to certain 911 emergencies. And one of those was the street crisis response team. These folks would drive around in red vans and they would respond to 911 calls for mental health emergencies. This could be happening on the street, someone having a psychiatric breakdown or potentially a domestic dispute up in a penthouse. It really ran the gamut. The teams were made up of EMTs, behavioral health clinicians, and peer responders. Peer responders were one of the more unique elements of this alternative response idea because they are not sworn officers, they did not arrive in uniform. They have lived experience, you know, with incarceration or potentially having gone through a mental health crisis themselves, substance use disorder. Having these types of experience that they’ve lived through. Was the expertise that the peers were bringing to these emergency responses also. And that group, the street crisis response team has been operating in San Francisco for about the last five years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:40] \u003c/em>Yeah, I remember the context of this time, I mean, just going back to 2020, like so many conversations and examples of, I mean really one too many people in the midst of a mental health crisis ending up in either jails or the emergency rooms and not necessarily getting the help that they need. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:40] \u003c/em>Yeah, I remember the context of this time, I mean, just going back to 2020, like so many conversations and examples of, I mean really one too many people in the midst of a mental health crisis ending up in either jails or the emergency rooms and not necessarily getting the help that they need. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:01] \u003c/em>Yeah, I mean, I think this was something that San Francisco had been talking about. How do we take some responsibilities off of the plate of police officers? And so there was also this thinking not of just how do we offer people who are going through crises potentially someone that they might relate to a little bit more in these scenarios, but also how do we make this whole system more efficient by pulling some of these responsibilities off of law enforcement’s plate. Maybe if there’s someone who’s trained in de-escalation, maybe we don’t have to send police in for backup. And actually, that was one of the outcomes of this program. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:01] \u003c/em>Yeah, I mean, I think this was something that San Francisco had been talking about. How do we take some responsibilities off of the plate of police officers? And so there was also this thinking not of just how do we offer people who are going through crises potentially someone that they might relate to a little bit more in these scenarios, but also how do we make this whole system more efficient by pulling some of these responsibilities off of law enforcement’s plate. Maybe if there’s someone who’s trained in de-escalation, maybe we don’t have to send police in for backup. And actually, that was one of the outcomes of this program. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Harmon: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:40] \u003c/em>We’re a team for people that are crashing out and the crash out could look any type of way. If you have less money, you’re going to crash out more. That’s just the way it goes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Harmon: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:40] \u003c/em>We’re a team for people that are crashing out and the crash out could look any type of way. If you have less money, you’re going to crash out more. That’s just the way it goes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:49] \u003c/em>Amelia Harmon manages many of the peer responders for this program, which is part of the fire department. The street crisis response team falls under the fire department umbrella. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Harmon: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:01] \u003c/em>I’ve responded to panic attacks and first episode psychoses in penthouses. I have responded to, you know, the craziest wildest condos in Knob Hill, where people all of a sudden, like, fell off their medication and now their husband is calling on them because they’ve never seen them act like this before and they’re pulling out their hair. I’ve respond to calls in the marina where I literally just had to play with a woman’s baby while she was having a panic attack because her husband walked out on her.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Harmon: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:01] \u003c/em>I’ve responded to panic attacks and first episode psychoses in penthouses. I have responded to, you know, the craziest wildest condos in Knob Hill, where people all of a sudden, like, fell off their medication and now their husband is calling on them because they’ve never seen them act like this before and they’re pulling out their hair. I’ve respond to calls in the marina where I literally just had to play with a woman’s baby while she was having a panic attack because her husband walked out on her.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:26] \u003c/em>In a lot of circumstances, first responders have a lot calls that they have to respond to. And they might be like: OK, there’s not a life and death situation happening here. We got to get to the next spot. And so something that Amelia has talked about that these peers can offer is just a little bit more of that human touch of making sure that people have what they need, even if the crisis has started to deescalate. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:26] \u003c/em>In a lot of circumstances, first responders have a lot calls that they have to respond to. And they might be like: OK, there’s not a life and death situation happening here. We got to get to the next spot. And so something that Amelia has talked about that these peers can offer is just a little bit more of that human touch of making sure that people have what they need, even if the crisis has started to deescalate. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Harmon: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:52] \u003c/em>But on many, many calls, it really is the peer counselor that the people will disclose to, because in my capacity as a peer counselor, I can tell someone that I was suicidal. I can them how complicated it is to be recovering from depression, but still being suicidal, and managing the symptoms of how often I think about killing myself per day. And if I showed improvement of what that looks like, and I could show that to someone that’s currently struggling, that would help them accept the services. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Harmon: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:52] \u003c/em>But on many, many calls, it really is the peer counselor that the people will disclose to, because in my capacity as a peer counselor, I can tell someone that I was suicidal. I can them how complicated it is to be recovering from depression, but still being suicidal, and managing the symptoms of how often I think about killing myself per day. And if I showed improvement of what that looks like, and I could show that to someone that’s currently struggling, that would help them accept the services. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:18] \u003c/em>How is training for these peer responders different from a typical emergency first responders? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:18] \u003c/em>How is training for these peer responders different from a typical emergency first responders? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:26] \u003c/em>I mean, you can take classes at San Francisco City College to be a peer responder, but you’re not necessarily getting the training of how to actually stop bleeding in a bullet wound. That is its own sort of set of training, but they are trained in just working with vulnerable populations and basically kind of learn how to translate what they’ve experienced into a bigger context of what did I need in those situations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:26] \u003c/em>I mean, you can take classes at San Francisco City College to be a peer responder, but you’re not necessarily getting the training of how to actually stop bleeding in a bullet wound. That is its own sort of set of training, but they are trained in just working with vulnerable populations and basically kind of learn how to translate what they’ve experienced into a bigger context of what did I need in those situations.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:59] \u003c/em>You know, when someone says, I know how you’re feeling, I know what you’re going through, you know, everybody can say that, but I really know what that feels like to be that individual. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:59] \u003c/em>You know, when someone says, I know how you’re feeling, I know what you’re going through, you know, everybody can say that, but I really know what that feels like to be that individual. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:12] \u003c/em>I spoke with one of the peer responders. Her name is Chantelle Hernandez-Wood, and she is formerly unhoused and struggled with alcoholism in the past. After going through her own recovery journey, she became one of these peer responders \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:12] \u003c/em>I spoke with one of the peer responders. Her name is Chantelle Hernandez-Wood, and she is formerly unhoused and struggled with alcoholism in the past. After going through her own recovery journey, she became one of these peer responders \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:29] \u003c/em>It’s just surreal because I’m working on the same team that helps me when I needed help the most.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:29] \u003c/em>It’s just surreal because I’m working on the same team that helps me when I needed help the most.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:41] \u003c/em>And so Chantel said there were just experience after experience where she would kind of be that first line of, how do we help you? And kind of breaking it down like, hey, I’ve been here before, too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:55] \u003c/em>And I imagine really the goal being to get people access to the help that they need. And that being really the measurement of success for many of these peer responders. I mean, it’s been about five to six years since this program has been around. It sounds like anecdotally, there is this sense, at least among the responders themselves, that they have a really important role to play. But do we know how effective this program has actually been at getting people help?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:55] \u003c/em>And I imagine really the goal being to get people access to the help that they need. And that being really the measurement of success for many of these peer responders. I mean, it’s been about five to six years since this program has been around. It sounds like anecdotally, there is this sense, at least among the responders themselves, that they have a really important role to play. But do we know how effective this program has actually been at getting people help?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:25] \u003c/em>There was a study that NYU did in 2024, so it’s been about two years, taking a look at San Francisco’s street crisis response team and these sort of alternatives that came up after 2020. And it really hails San Francisco as a model in this. And this study from NYU, you know, did say that their investments are showing positive results. It said that they the street crisis response team responds to roughly 29 calls a day in an average of 16 minutes each, and that in the vast majority of those calls, the police are not called upon for backup, which would save police resources and indicate that some of this care can be provided without police presence. So that’s pretty high marks for a program that was relatively new and in some regards experimental. Now, fast forward, the city has been really chipping away at this program.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:25] \u003c/em>There was a study that NYU did in 2024, so it’s been about two years, taking a look at San Francisco’s street crisis response team and these sort of alternatives that came up after 2020. And it really hails San Francisco as a model in this. And this study from NYU, you know, did say that their investments are showing positive results. It said that they the street crisis response team responds to roughly 29 calls a day in an average of 16 minutes each, and that in the vast majority of those calls, the police are not called upon for backup, which would save police resources and indicate that some of this care can be provided without police presence. So that’s pretty high marks for a program that was relatively new and in some regards experimental. Now, fast forward, the city has been really chipping away at this program.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:34] \u003c/em>Coming up, why San Francisco is taking peer support counselors off its streets and what it means going forward. By the way, if you want to support the work that we do here at KQED, consider becoming a KQED member, which you could do at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:34] \u003c/em>Coming up, why San Francisco is taking peer support counselors off its streets and what it means going forward. By the way, if you want to support the work that we do here at KQED, consider becoming a KQED member, which you could do at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:41] \u003c/em>I mean, we are talking now because these peers are being removed from the street crisis response team in San Francisco. Why?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:41] \u003c/em>I mean, we are talking now because these peers are being removed from the street crisis response team in San Francisco. Why?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:52] \u003c/em>“Why?” Is a very difficult question. I’ll back up actually to just say how this first got on my radar, actually. Amelia Harmon, who we chatted about earlier, she received information at a fire department commission meeting that the fire department was moving to pull peers off of these 911 response teams and that August 14th would be their last day. You know, she manages these people. She had not heard about this. No one had communicated this to her directly. This was a complete surprise to her. That’s what she says. It was a completely surprise. They hadn’t heard that the program was, you know, not performing or meeting expectations. She has, for the last several weeks, gone and spoken at multiple public meetings, the Health Commission, the Police Commission, Board of Supervisors. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Harmon: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:47] \u003c/em>Hi, good evening supervisors. My name is Amelia, District 9, speaking in my individual capacity. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:53] \u003c/em>Trying to tell people in positions of power, like, this is happening, and ask them, did you know? Like, is there a reason why? Like is anyone concerned about this? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Harmon: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:14:05] \u003c/em>From frontline workers to directors. No one that I spoke to had heard it anywhere else. They count on the non-uniformed peer support backed by our traditional first responders when they call 911 for their people, our people. One person on foot door to door. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:14:24] \u003c/em>Ultimately, this was a decision from the fire department. And when I reached out to the fire department to ask about it, they said that this was very carefully considered decision. They are not getting rid of the street crisis response team, that the street crises response team will still exist. But they are moving peers off of these rigs. And when I tried to push a little bit more on why, the reasoning that I was given was that it has been difficult scheduling with the peers themselves. They are not stationed at the firehouse or with the paramedics. There has to be sort of. An arrangement for a pickup along some of these routes. But yeah, it ultimately has come down to the fire department just deciding that this was not working for their vision for the program.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:15:20] \u003c/em>Yeah, it’s interesting that the reasoning is not something like this program isn’t working. It’s just sort of like an administrative issue. So then what does that then mean for, I mean, who is doing the work now of this sort of non-emergency emergency response in San Francisco?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:15:40] \u003c/em>Yeah, I mean, the city and the fire department is simultaneously working to expand and develop trained paramedics who have this additional layer of training in many of the things that the peers and behavioral health specialists brought to these rigs. Things like trauma informed responses, you know, extra training in how to direct people to certain social services. But you know what is different about the community paramedic versus the Dear Responders, is, you know, it’s subtle, but it’s important. This is what Amelia had to say about it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Harmon: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:17] \u003c/em>They come in uniforms and they come in steel-toed boots, and that matters. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:20] \u003c/em>They may not necessarily have the lived experience that a peer brought also, which was kind of at the core of what these peer responders were offering to people who were in crisis. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:34] \u003c/em>And again, that’s just not an experience that you can sit in a classroom and do a two hour training. Right. And I mean, I guess I wonder what someone like Chantal or Amelia worry that the city will really miss when it moves away from prioritizing this firsthand experience to help deal with some of the city’s most pressing issues. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:58] \u003c/em>Yeah, I mean both of them are pretty gutted. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:17:02] \u003c/em>Like I’ve been blindsided. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:17:03] \u003c/em>Chantel talked to me about this. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:17:05] \u003c/em>It’s just an incredible disservice to the community. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:17:08] \u003c/em>The rollout of this has been confusing, and a lot of people seem to not know what’s going on. But Chantal just said there’s been so many times in which she’s seen people on the street who specifically reached out to her in these moments.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:17:27] \u003c/em>It sounds like they’re worried that this is just gonna mean that fewer people are gonna get help when they’re in crisis in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:17:34] \u003c/em>Yeah, I think that’s that’s kind of one of the biggest fears that both Chantel and Amelia have is that if peers are no longer in these on these 911 calls that there will be people who fall through the cracks. You know, when I spoke to Chantell, I asked her, what is your plan after August 14th? You know? What are you going to do after you’re no longer going to be on these 911 calls? And You know, they still don’t know what’s going to be sort of their new offering or position or even if there’s going to be layoffs. But one thing that’s been suggested, I guess, maybe unofficially, is that these peer responders would be shifted to respond to 3-1-1 calls, these non-emergency sort of like handling like, you know, we need unhoused people to move. It’s very different from a 9-1 call. And Chantel just said that feels like. Very different from the expertise she’s been developing over the last few years in kind of these more emergency kind of healthcare sort of driven settings. And so if that is what she’s offered, she’s going to look for something else. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:18:46] \u003c/em>I mean, Sydney, it does seem like so much of the context that we’re living in has changed since 2020 and these conversations around these alternatives to policing, defunding the police. It feels like the conversations really swung in the opposite direction in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:19:04] \u003c/em>Yeah, it probably has swung in the opposite direction in a lot of places in the country. Yeah. But when you think about the conversations that were being had in 2020 and 2021 about, you know, having these alternatives to policing or, you know, even having hearings in City Hall about what defunding the police would look like, you know, Even though that didn’t happen, it was, you know, still something that city officials were talking about and considering. We are so far from that now. You know, the police budget has only increased. There has been a huge push towards public safety, you know, just as a rallying cry in San Francisco. Within the conversation of public safety. You know homelessness and drug use and mental health often gets wrapped into that. And, you know sometimes unfairly, sometimes not. But I think what we’ve seen is also more arrests for people who are refusing shelter or who are using drugs outside. Obviously, these peer responders were not only handling street-level issues, but I think that moving them off of these 911 calls does signal a return to the more traditional policing approach that we saw. Before these conversations were had.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:19:04] \u003c/em>Yeah, it probably has swung in the opposite direction in a lot of places in the country. Yeah. But when you think about the conversations that were being had in 2020 and 2021 about, you know, having these alternatives to policing or, you know, even having hearings in City Hall about what defunding the police would look like, you know, Even though that didn’t happen, it was, you know, still something that city officials were talking about and considering. We are so far from that now. You know, the police budget has only increased. There has been a huge push towards public safety, you know, just as a rallying cry in San Francisco. Within the conversation of public safety. You know homelessness and drug use and mental health often gets wrapped into that. And, you know sometimes unfairly, sometimes not. But I think what we’ve seen is also more arrests for people who are refusing shelter or who are using drugs outside. Obviously, these peer responders were not only handling street-level issues, but I think that moving them off of these 911 calls does signal a return to the more traditional policing approach that we saw. Before these conversations were had.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:20:41] \u003c/em>Well Sydney, thank you so much for sharing your reporting with me. I appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>This episode contains mentions of suicide. If you or someone you know is in crisis, call or text 988.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Starting August 14, San Francisco will remove peer specialists from its 911 response. These peer responders, equipped with both training and personal experience with issues like homelessness and addiction, say the decision is a regressive step in the city’s approach to mental and behavioral health emergencies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC6632110452&light=true\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092836/these-peers-provided-alternative-911-responders-san-francisco-is-removing-them\">These Peers Provided Alternative 911 Responders. San Francisco Is Removing Them\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode transcript\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript is computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:57] \u003c/em>Hey, just a quick note before we get started. This episode includes mentions of suicide and addiction. Please take care while listening. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. It was early one morning outside of a cafe in San Francisco when Chantel Hernandez-Wood, who was homeless and in the throes of her addiction, was told she had to move. She wasn’t sure what her next move would be or where she’d go next, when about a block up, she saw a red van and made a decision that would change her life forever. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:47] \u003c/em>So I walked up there and I knocked on the window and I said, ‘I need help.’ \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:56] \u003c/em>It was San Francisco’s street crisis response team who respond to 911 calls alongside peer counselors, people who’ve had personal experience with homelessness, addiction, or mental illness.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:17] \u003c/em>And they took me to a sobering center. And from there I was placed in a detox and there I, I was in a 90 day program. And while I was sitting there in the 90 day program, I thought, you know, I’d really love to do what they were doing. They went above and beyond to help me get off the streets. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:40] \u003c/em>Today, Chantel is a peer counselor herself, working alongside emergency responders to help people suffering on the streets of San Francisco. It’s a program that’s been going on since 2020.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:57] \u003c/em>When someone says, I know how you’re feeling, I know what you’re going through, everybody can say that, but I really know what that feels like to be that individual. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:08] \u003c/em>But this program is about to change. Starting August 14, peer counselors will no longer accompany emergency responders on 911 calls. And advocates worry that without the firsthand expertise of peer counselors, more people will fall through the cracks. Today, what the end of peer support could mean for San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:40] \u003c/em>You’ll probably remember, in 2020, following the killing of George Floyd and several other police brutality incidents, there were protests all over the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:52] \u003c/em>Sydney Johnson is a reporter for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:56] \u003c/em>Calls for defunding the police. And, you know, those protests were happening here in the Bay Area. Even though San Francisco never defunded the police, there was a lot of interest in creating these sort of alternatives to having law enforcement and police respond to certain 911 emergencies. And one of those was the street crisis response team. These folks would drive around in red vans and they would respond to 911 calls for mental health emergencies. This could be happening on the street, someone having a psychiatric breakdown or potentially a domestic dispute up in a penthouse. It really ran the gamut. The teams were made up of EMTs, behavioral health clinicians, and peer responders. Peer responders were one of the more unique elements of this alternative response idea because they are not sworn officers, they did not arrive in uniform. They have lived experience, you know, with incarceration or potentially having gone through a mental health crisis themselves, substance use disorder. Having these types of experience that they’ve lived through. Was the expertise that the peers were bringing to these emergency responses also. And that group, the street crisis response team has been operating in San Francisco for about the last five years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:40] \u003c/em>Yeah, I remember the context of this time, I mean, just going back to 2020, like so many conversations and examples of, I mean really one too many people in the midst of a mental health crisis ending up in either jails or the emergency rooms and not necessarily getting the help that they need. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:01] \u003c/em>Yeah, I mean, I think this was something that San Francisco had been talking about. How do we take some responsibilities off of the plate of police officers? And so there was also this thinking not of just how do we offer people who are going through crises potentially someone that they might relate to a little bit more in these scenarios, but also how do we make this whole system more efficient by pulling some of these responsibilities off of law enforcement’s plate. Maybe if there’s someone who’s trained in de-escalation, maybe we don’t have to send police in for backup. And actually, that was one of the outcomes of this program. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Harmon: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:40] \u003c/em>We’re a team for people that are crashing out and the crash out could look any type of way. If you have less money, you’re going to crash out more. That’s just the way it goes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:49] \u003c/em>Amelia Harmon manages many of the peer responders for this program, which is part of the fire department. The street crisis response team falls under the fire department umbrella. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Harmon: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:01] \u003c/em>I’ve responded to panic attacks and first episode psychoses in penthouses. I have responded to, you know, the craziest wildest condos in Knob Hill, where people all of a sudden, like, fell off their medication and now their husband is calling on them because they’ve never seen them act like this before and they’re pulling out their hair. I’ve respond to calls in the marina where I literally just had to play with a woman’s baby while she was having a panic attack because her husband walked out on her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:26] \u003c/em>In a lot of circumstances, first responders have a lot calls that they have to respond to. And they might be like: OK, there’s not a life and death situation happening here. We got to get to the next spot. And so something that Amelia has talked about that these peers can offer is just a little bit more of that human touch of making sure that people have what they need, even if the crisis has started to deescalate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Harmon: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:52] \u003c/em>But on many, many calls, it really is the peer counselor that the people will disclose to, because in my capacity as a peer counselor, I can tell someone that I was suicidal. I can them how complicated it is to be recovering from depression, but still being suicidal, and managing the symptoms of how often I think about killing myself per day. And if I showed improvement of what that looks like, and I could show that to someone that’s currently struggling, that would help them accept the services. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:18] \u003c/em>How is training for these peer responders different from a typical emergency first responders? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:26] \u003c/em>I mean, you can take classes at San Francisco City College to be a peer responder, but you’re not necessarily getting the training of how to actually stop bleeding in a bullet wound. That is its own sort of set of training, but they are trained in just working with vulnerable populations and basically kind of learn how to translate what they’ve experienced into a bigger context of what did I need in those situations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:59] \u003c/em>You know, when someone says, I know how you’re feeling, I know what you’re going through, you know, everybody can say that, but I really know what that feels like to be that individual. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:12] \u003c/em>I spoke with one of the peer responders. Her name is Chantelle Hernandez-Wood, and she is formerly unhoused and struggled with alcoholism in the past. After going through her own recovery journey, she became one of these peer responders \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:29] \u003c/em>It’s just surreal because I’m working on the same team that helps me when I needed help the most.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:41] \u003c/em>And so Chantel said there were just experience after experience where she would kind of be that first line of, how do we help you? And kind of breaking it down like, hey, I’ve been here before, too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:55] \u003c/em>And I imagine really the goal being to get people access to the help that they need. And that being really the measurement of success for many of these peer responders. I mean, it’s been about five to six years since this program has been around. It sounds like anecdotally, there is this sense, at least among the responders themselves, that they have a really important role to play. But do we know how effective this program has actually been at getting people help?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:25] \u003c/em>There was a study that NYU did in 2024, so it’s been about two years, taking a look at San Francisco’s street crisis response team and these sort of alternatives that came up after 2020. And it really hails San Francisco as a model in this. And this study from NYU, you know, did say that their investments are showing positive results. It said that they the street crisis response team responds to roughly 29 calls a day in an average of 16 minutes each, and that in the vast majority of those calls, the police are not called upon for backup, which would save police resources and indicate that some of this care can be provided without police presence. So that’s pretty high marks for a program that was relatively new and in some regards experimental. Now, fast forward, the city has been really chipping away at this program.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:34] \u003c/em>Coming up, why San Francisco is taking peer support counselors off its streets and what it means going forward. By the way, if you want to support the work that we do here at KQED, consider becoming a KQED member, which you could do at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:41] \u003c/em>I mean, we are talking now because these peers are being removed from the street crisis response team in San Francisco. Why?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:52] \u003c/em>“Why?” Is a very difficult question. I’ll back up actually to just say how this first got on my radar, actually. Amelia Harmon, who we chatted about earlier, she received information at a fire department commission meeting that the fire department was moving to pull peers off of these 911 response teams and that August 14th would be their last day. You know, she manages these people. She had not heard about this. No one had communicated this to her directly. This was a complete surprise to her. That’s what she says. It was a completely surprise. They hadn’t heard that the program was, you know, not performing or meeting expectations. She has, for the last several weeks, gone and spoken at multiple public meetings, the Health Commission, the Police Commission, Board of Supervisors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Harmon: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:47] \u003c/em>Hi, good evening supervisors. My name is Amelia, District 9, speaking in my individual capacity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:53] \u003c/em>Trying to tell people in positions of power, like, this is happening, and ask them, did you know? Like, is there a reason why? Like is anyone concerned about this? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Harmon: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:14:05] \u003c/em>From frontline workers to directors. No one that I spoke to had heard it anywhere else. They count on the non-uniformed peer support backed by our traditional first responders when they call 911 for their people, our people. One person on foot door to door. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:14:24] \u003c/em>Ultimately, this was a decision from the fire department. And when I reached out to the fire department to ask about it, they said that this was very carefully considered decision. They are not getting rid of the street crisis response team, that the street crises response team will still exist. But they are moving peers off of these rigs. And when I tried to push a little bit more on why, the reasoning that I was given was that it has been difficult scheduling with the peers themselves. They are not stationed at the firehouse or with the paramedics. There has to be sort of. An arrangement for a pickup along some of these routes. But yeah, it ultimately has come down to the fire department just deciding that this was not working for their vision for the program.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:15:20] \u003c/em>Yeah, it’s interesting that the reasoning is not something like this program isn’t working. It’s just sort of like an administrative issue. So then what does that then mean for, I mean, who is doing the work now of this sort of non-emergency emergency response in San Francisco?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:15:40] \u003c/em>Yeah, I mean, the city and the fire department is simultaneously working to expand and develop trained paramedics who have this additional layer of training in many of the things that the peers and behavioral health specialists brought to these rigs. Things like trauma informed responses, you know, extra training in how to direct people to certain social services. But you know what is different about the community paramedic versus the Dear Responders, is, you know, it’s subtle, but it’s important. This is what Amelia had to say about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Harmon: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:17] \u003c/em>They come in uniforms and they come in steel-toed boots, and that matters. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:20] \u003c/em>They may not necessarily have the lived experience that a peer brought also, which was kind of at the core of what these peer responders were offering to people who were in crisis. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:34] \u003c/em>And again, that’s just not an experience that you can sit in a classroom and do a two hour training. Right. And I mean, I guess I wonder what someone like Chantal or Amelia worry that the city will really miss when it moves away from prioritizing this firsthand experience to help deal with some of the city’s most pressing issues. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:58] \u003c/em>Yeah, I mean both of them are pretty gutted. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:17:02] \u003c/em>Like I’ve been blindsided. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:17:03] \u003c/em>Chantel talked to me about this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chantel Hernandez-Wood: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:17:05] \u003c/em>It’s just an incredible disservice to the community. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:17:08] \u003c/em>The rollout of this has been confusing, and a lot of people seem to not know what’s going on. But Chantal just said there’s been so many times in which she’s seen people on the street who specifically reached out to her in these moments.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:17:27] \u003c/em>It sounds like they’re worried that this is just gonna mean that fewer people are gonna get help when they’re in crisis in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:17:34] \u003c/em>Yeah, I think that’s that’s kind of one of the biggest fears that both Chantel and Amelia have is that if peers are no longer in these on these 911 calls that there will be people who fall through the cracks. You know, when I spoke to Chantell, I asked her, what is your plan after August 14th? You know? What are you going to do after you’re no longer going to be on these 911 calls? And You know, they still don’t know what’s going to be sort of their new offering or position or even if there’s going to be layoffs. But one thing that’s been suggested, I guess, maybe unofficially, is that these peer responders would be shifted to respond to 3-1-1 calls, these non-emergency sort of like handling like, you know, we need unhoused people to move. It’s very different from a 9-1 call. And Chantel just said that feels like. Very different from the expertise she’s been developing over the last few years in kind of these more emergency kind of healthcare sort of driven settings. And so if that is what she’s offered, she’s going to look for something else. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:18:46] \u003c/em>I mean, Sydney, it does seem like so much of the context that we’re living in has changed since 2020 and these conversations around these alternatives to policing, defunding the police. It feels like the conversations really swung in the opposite direction in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:19:04] \u003c/em>Yeah, it probably has swung in the opposite direction in a lot of places in the country. Yeah. But when you think about the conversations that were being had in 2020 and 2021 about, you know, having these alternatives to policing or, you know, even having hearings in City Hall about what defunding the police would look like, you know, Even though that didn’t happen, it was, you know, still something that city officials were talking about and considering. We are so far from that now. You know, the police budget has only increased. There has been a huge push towards public safety, you know, just as a rallying cry in San Francisco. Within the conversation of public safety. You know homelessness and drug use and mental health often gets wrapped into that. And, you know sometimes unfairly, sometimes not. But I think what we’ve seen is also more arrests for people who are refusing shelter or who are using drugs outside. Obviously, these peer responders were not only handling street-level issues, but I think that moving them off of these 911 calls does signal a return to the more traditional policing approach that we saw. Before these conversations were had.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:20:41] \u003c/em>Well Sydney, thank you so much for sharing your reporting with me. I appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "alameda-relies-on-bridge-tenders-for-safety-on-land-and-sea",
"title": "Alameda Relies on Bridge Tenders for Safety on Land and Sea",
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"headTitle": "Alameda Relies on Bridge Tenders for Safety on Land and Sea | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like many people who travel to and from the city of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/alameda\">Alameda\u003c/a>, Sarah Reid, one day, found herself facing a bridge that was temporarily disconnected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Park Street Bridge, a forest green drawbridge, about the length of a football field, had split open, casting the four-lane bridge at a 70-degree angle in the air so a boat could pass underneath.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The opening and closing of Alameda’s drawbridges is a familiar ritual for people who travel to the Bay Area’s island city. Alameda is connected to the rest of the Bay Area by six bridges, as well as two underwater tunnels. All but two of the bridges are required to open 24 hours a day, sometimes on very short notice, in order to let ships travel down the Oakland Estuary, which separates Alameda and Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With nothing to do but to wait, Reid peered through her windshield and noticed a little tower connected to the bridge, with a room full of windows at the top. She wondered if someone was inside that room, and what they did up there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I remember wondering, does someone just sit there all day? And what is that like?” Reid said. “What’s a good day look like? What’s a bad day? What’s the weirdest thing that’s ever happened?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070402\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070402\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The High Street Bridge begins to lift over the Oakland-Alameda Estuary on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>There was, in fact, a bridge tender in the control tower of the Park Street Bridge that day, just as there has been for decades. Bridge tenders are the workers responsible for safely opening and closing the bridges, so that people both on land and on water can move through the area. It’s a job that comes with life -or-death public safety risks, stunning views, ample alone time, and a strong connection to the history of the island city itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A public service job with risks\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“ It’s the best job in the world,” said John Williams, a bridge tender for Alameda County Public Works Agency, who has held the job for 16 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Williams was the bridge tender on duty at the Park Street Bridge on a sunny winter morning earlier this year. From his perch inside the control tower, Williams could see up and down the estuary, with Berkeley and downtown Oakland in the distance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12081386 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-08-KQED-3.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One end of the room is all business: with a control panel for operating the drawbridge, a maritime radio, security cameras, a log book and a laptop. In a corner of the other side of the room is a little kitchenette. On that particular day, there was a French press and an avocado sitting on the counter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because the bridges are staffed 24/7, with bridge tenders working day, swing and graveyard shifts, each bridge control tower has its own kitchenette and bathroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Williams said the perks include beautiful sunsets, great wildlife viewing and dedicated colleagues. But he also takes pride in being a public servant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our first job is to make sure no one gets hurt while we’re operating these massive machines,” Williams said. “You could crush a car or kill somebody if you’re not following procedure properly.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said being a bridge tender requires constant vigilance, ensuring nobody is in harm’s way when the bridge is moving. Still, there have been accidents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People will run on the bridge while it’s moving, and I think twice we’ve had people run their cars through the barrier,” Williams said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s just the terrestrial side of his worries. The bridge also needs to be opened in a timely manner so that a boat doesn’t hit it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’ll get a call and tug and barge is coming in with 20 tons of gravel, and a fat tide and wind behind them, and you have to open the bridge because it’s very hard for them to stop,” Williams said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Boats can schedule openings ahead of time or call to request one. The bridges don’t open during the morning and afternoon rush hour unless a boat captain makes an appointment at least two hours ahead of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Williams is relaxed and friendly in his downtime at work, but when it comes time to open the bridge, he gets intensely focused. When opening the bridge, the first thing he does is open all the blinds in the control tower, so he has full visibility. He stops speaking to anyone else around so that he can concentrate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He activates an alarm bell as he makes an announcement over a loudspeaker, telling the public to stand clear. Then he drops the gates that block the road and sidewalk leading to the bridge. He double and triple checks the security cameras and walks out on a little catwalk adjacent to the tower to verify that nobody is on the bridge. Then he initiates the opening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Metal locks underneath the bridge disconnect, an electric motor deep in the bowels below the bridge begins to whir, a massive counterweight sinks into a pit and the bridge begins to rise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070399\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070399\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A flock of pigeons flies near the Park Street Bridge over the Oakland Estuary on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For second-generation bridge tender Damon Wallace, it’s a special moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re these giant machines, and you don’t realize it until you’re up in the tower the first time and you press that button, and then your world starts to tilt sideways,” Wallace, whose father and uncle worked as bridge tenders, said as he gazed up at the bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“For a minute, you get to just sit there and watch this amazing, surreal thing happen right in front of you. It’s one of my favorite things,” Wallace said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the bridge reaches its apex, Williams repeats the process in reverse until the bridge is back together, and the traffic on the bridge resumes again.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The chaotic past of Alameda’s bridges\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Ever since early European settlers founded the city of Alameda, its residents have had to navigate getting across the strip of water and marshland separating it from Oakland, and bridge tenders have been part of that history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The problem started in the 1870s when people on the west end of Alameda complained, ‘Oakland’s right there, we sure would like to get over there,” Alameda historian Dennis Evanosky said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12080794 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01913_TV.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, Alameda wasn’t yet an island, but connected to Oakland by a marshy stretch of land at its eastern end. Years later, in 1902, the Army Corps of Engineers would finish work dredging that channel, flooding the area connecting Oakland’s inner harbor with San Leandro Bay, making Alameda an island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, even before that, crossing the marshy stretch of land connecting it to Oakland wasn’t easy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first bridge to connect Alameda to Oakland was the Webster Street bridge, built by Alameda County in 1871. It’s now long gone. And pretty much from the get-go, it had its fair share of tragedies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Webster Street Bridge was a disaster,” Evanosky said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It wasn’t a drawbridge, but rather a swing bridge that could turn 90 degrees, out of the way of ship traffic. This was the design of most early Alameda bridges. Evanosky said it was hit by ships multiple times, and in 1900 was the site of a tragic train accident in which 13 people were killed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Webster Street bridge couldn’t catch a break. It was destroyed and rebuilt three more times, and its successors were the site of more ship collisions, a fire, and an attempted bombing, according to Bernard C. Winn, the author of \u003cem>California Drawbridges\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>County officials made the decision to dismantle the bridge in 1928, after the construction of the Webster Street Tube, an underwater tunnel connecting Oakland and Alameda, made it obsolete. This is the pattern most of Alameda’s bridges have followed. Some don’t exist anymore, but the ones that do have been rebuilt at least once.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070403\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070403\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Vincent Cerletti, the High Street Bridge operator with the Alameda County Public Works Agency, sits at the controls used to raise and lower the drawbridge over the Oakland-Alameda Estuary on Jan. 13, 2026, in Alameda. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But it hasn’t been all ship strikes and disasters. Alameda residents have had some fun along the way. Evanosky said early Alameda residents used to “ride the bridges,” clinging on as the bridges swung open and taking them for a ride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>People even did this on the current version of the Park Street Bridge. Clinging on as the drawbridge raised open.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s pretty dangerous. So they put a stop to that,” Evanosky said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The cities of Alameda and Oakland commemorated the opening of the current version of the Park Street Bridge in 1935, with a wedding between a woman from Alameda, Edith Bird, and a man from Oakland, Edward M. Drotloff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newspaper clippings from the time describe it as a huge party. There was a parade, marathon runners from Oakland, and the mayors of the two towns clasped hands as hundreds came out to see the new bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What it takes\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>At the High Street Bridge control tower, just a half-mile down up the estuary from the Park Street Bridge, Vincent Cerletti strummed his ukulele in a moment of downtime during his shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ Part of the job is to stare out the window and the ukulele accompanies it pretty good,” Cerletti said. “You have to have somewhat of a little hobby to pass the time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070401\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070401\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Vincent Cerletti, the High Street Bridge operator, looks out from the bridge’s operator tower on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. The Miller-Sweeney Bridge is visible in the distance. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He said other bridge tenders paint watercolors or fix small electronics between bridge openings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cerletti has been a bridge tender since 2014, and said the stability of working for Alameda County has been great, he said. But the job can get a little lonely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ You have to be able to be comfortable with yourself sitting up here too, because you can get go a little stir crazy being alone all the time,” Cerletti said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Generations of bridge tenders\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The work of being a bridge tender has seeped into Damon Wallace’s bones. Wallace fondly remembers moments from his youth, like when he greeted his father at the door in the morning after a graveyard shift, noticing the smell of oil, grease and work his father would bring home with him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ I started working here and I was like, ‘oh, that’s that smell,’ I get it now,” Wallace said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070400\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070400\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Steel beams and the roadway deck are seen as the Park Street Bridge lifts over the Oakland-Alameda Estuary on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. The double-leaf bascule bridge spans 372 feet and is raised to about 70 degrees for most openings. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Even the sound of rubber car tires driving on the bridges’ metal road deck, a sort of ever-present drone around the bridges, has become soothing for him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ Over the years, I’ve gotten to actually look and put hands on these things and understand what they are for and why they’re here. My childhood became my adulthood, and my world got bigger somehow,” Wallace said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said he’s started to bring his children to work with him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ It’s honest work, and it’s kind of a special thing, this sort of infrastructure, this kind of machinery, this sort of job,” Wallace said. “There’s not a lot of it left, and I’m proud to be part of it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey everyone! This is Bay Curious. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Crossing bridges can be essential to getting around the Bay Area. No matter what side of the water you live on, odds are, you’re probably going to use a bridge sooner than later. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And for the people who live, work or just hang out in the City of Alameda, crossing a bridge is almost non-negotiable. The island is connected to the rest of the Bay by six drawbridges, as well as two underwater tunnels, that span the Oakland Estuary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When those bridges open to let a boat pass, everybody has to wait. One day, Sarah Reid was in her car, watching the Park Street bridge open, when she noticed a little room attached to one of the bridges. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I remember looking up at those little rooms wondering, does someone just sit up there all day? And what is that like, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She also wants to hear some stories …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s a good day look like? What’s a bad da y? What’s the weirdest thing that’s ever happened \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Turns out – yeah! There’s a bridge tender sitting in that little room 24/7. And they’ve seen a lot! KQED’s Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman has the story.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Cars on Bridge Noise\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Car tires hum against the steel deck of the Park Street Bridge. This hypnotic drone is the bridge’s soundtrack. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I grew up on these bridges. Um, the sound of the cars going overhead is, is soothing to me. It’s like a, it’s a comfort thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Damon Wallace, he’s a bridge utility worker for Alameda County’s Public Works Agency.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve been doing that for about two years, and prior to that I was a bridge tender. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bridge tenders are the people that operate Alameda’s drawbridges. It runs in his family, his father and his uncle both held the job when he was a kid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My dad 25 years. Uh, my uncle, uh, a little bit less than that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re standing in the machinery room underneath the Park Street Bridge…its a large concrete bunker full of tools and the giant electrical motor that opens and closes the bridge\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like a little Home Depot in here, just for the bridge, they’ve got everything they need to keep the bridge running which is essential because The Park Street Bridge is the busiest of Alameda’s bridges. Around 40,000 vehicles travel across its four lanes on an average weekday. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Up on the deck of the bridge, which is about the length of a football field we can see Berkeley, downtown Oakland, and ships at the Port of Oakland. We walk up to the bridge tower. It’s fixed on the Alameda side of the bridge, and almost looks like a little miniature clock tower. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carl Speaker:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Knock, knock. Hello. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Come on up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carl Speaker:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How you doing, John? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We head up a spiral staircase to the top floor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome to Park Street Bridge, uh, Alameda County Public Works Agency. How you doing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John Williams is the bridge tender on duty right now. He’s got a big white beard and his orange public works shirt tucked into his work pants. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s the best job in the world, you know, I mean, I, it’s really an excellent job \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The top floor is just one room with windows all around, giving the operator a 360 degree view of the bridge and the Oakland estuary. One end is all business: with a control panel for operating the drawbridge, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. There are a lot of big red buttons there, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">right? There are. And you don’t just randomly push them either. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, that’s too bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s also a maritime radio, security cameras, a log book and a laptop. In a corner of the other side of the room is a little kitchenette, there’s a french press and an avocado sitting on the counter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve seen a lot of wildlife out here over, over the years. You know, way l one time, lot of otters now and then, um, a lot of seabirds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some great sunsets too. John says he found the job on Craigslist. Besides the perks, he says this job has some big responsibilities. Public safety is their number one concern. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Our first job is to make sure no one gets hurt while we’re operating these massive machines.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A normal opening of the bridge splits the road deck in half, tons of concrete and steel lift into the sky at a 70 degree angle, about 143 feet in the air. The process requires constant vigilance and double, triple checking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cause people will run on the bridge while it’s moving. They’ll go underneath the barriers. I think twice we’ve had people run their cars through the barrier. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s just keeping the PEOPLE safe. The bridge also needs to be opened in a timely manner so that a boat doesn’t hit it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You get a call and tug and barge is coming in with like, you know whatever, 20 tons of gravel, you know, with a, a fat tide behind them pushing ’em in, in wind, and you have to open the bridge. You can’t not open the bridge. It’s very hard for ’em to stop. Really hard for ’em to stop.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All but two of Alameda’s drawbridges are staffed around the clock because ships, including the nearby Coast Guard base, need to be able to travel up and down the estuary at all hours. On a busy day, the Park Street bridge might open and close 14 different times. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I could be in a crowd of a thousand people and if somebody on the other side of that crowd said Park Street Bridge, I would hear them. Because I’m trained to hear it, you know, the radio call.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Boats can schedule openings ahead of time, or just call to request one. The bridges don’t open during the morning and afternoon rush hour unless a boat makes an appointment\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John comes off pretty relaxed and friendly, but when it comes time to open the bridge, he gets intensely focused. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right now, there isn’t a ship passing, this is an operational check, that the tenders do from time to time, to make sure everything is working as it should. John starts by opening all the blinds in the little tower room. He wants full visibility. And he stops talking to me. He says he needs to concentrate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">St and clear for bridge opening. Please stand clear for Park Street Bridge opening\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First he drops the gates and barriers to keep cars and pedestrians off the bridge, and makes sure all the traffic is stopped. Then he walks out on a little catwalk extending out from the tower, and double checks that nobody is in harms way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of birds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just then, recordings of birds play underneath the bridge, in an attempt to shoo nesting pigeons away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then it gets pretty quiet. The hum of traffic stops, and the bridge begins to rise. You can hear the electrical motors whirring. For Damon, the second generation bridge worker, it’s a special moment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s these giant machines, and you don’t realize they’re machines until you’re up in the tower the first time and you press that button and the your world starts to tilt sideways.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says there’s something magical about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For a minute you get to just sit there and watch this amazing, surreal thing happened right in front of you. And it’s, it’s, it’s one of my favorite things, you know? It always has been. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the bridge sticking straight up in the air, John checks again before letting it down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, you guys. All right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voices: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">good!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Coming down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then, John guides the bridge slowly back down, metal locks click back together underneath the road deck, and the traffic starts again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s clear the bridge tenders are essential. But in this world of technological innovation, especially artificial intelligence, I wonder, how much longer will these jobs be around? I put that question to John Medlock, he’s the Deputy Director of Maintenance Operation for Alameda County, PublicWorks Agency.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Medlock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At some point in time, you know, maybe, maybe everything needs to be replaced. We’ll probably find new technology or, or new way of spanning the, uh, the estuary. But right now that’s what we have and love it or hate it. If that’s what we have. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He thinks the bridge tenders, will be around for the foreseeable future. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When we return – some history of these drawbridges. And the unique ways bridge tenders pass the time. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Nowadays Alameda’s bridges are a reliable way to get on and off the island. But it wasn’t always that way. Here’s Azul again…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ever since early European settlers founded the city of Alameda, its residents have had to navigate getting across the strip of water and marshland … separating it from Oakland. And bridge tenders have been part of that history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The problem started in, in the, in the 1870s when people on the west end of Alameda complained, ‘Boy Oakland’s right over there. We’d like to get over there.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s historian Dennis Evanosky. The first bridge to connect Alameda to what’s now Oakland was the Webster Street bridge, built by Alameda County in 1871. It’s now long gone. And pretty much from the get go, it had its fair share of tragedies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Webster Street Bridge was a disaster. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It wasn’t a drawbridge, but rather a swing bridge, that could turn 90 degrees, out of the way of ship traffic. This was the design of most early Alameda bridges. But Evanosky says it was hit by ships multiple times, and in 1900 was the site of a tragic train accident. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They misunderstood a signal and, and the, the whole train dumped into the estuary.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thirteen people were killed. The Webster Street bridge couldn’t catch a break. It was destroyed and rebuilt 3 more times, and its successors were the site of more ship collisions, a fire, and an attempted bombing. The bridge was dismantled for the last time, shortly after the construction of the Webster Street Tube in 1928., the tube is an underwater tunnel connecting Oakland and Alameda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s kind of the story of all of Alameda’s bridges. Some don’t exist anymore, but the ones that do have been rebuilt, at least once.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So each of the bridges has two lives. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it hasn’t been all ship strikes and disasters. Alameda residents have had some fun along the way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then the people, uh, who, who were really close by when they heard the boat toot for permission, they’d all run down there and they’d ride the bridge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…Climbing on the bridge as it swung open and taking it for a ride. People even did this on the current version of the park street bridge. Clinging on as the drawbridge raised open. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s pretty dangerous. So they, they, they put a stop to that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The cities of Alameda and Oakland commemorated the opening of the latest Park Street Bridge in 1935, with a wedding between a woman from Alameda and a man from Oakland.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over reading newspaper clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Miss Edith Bird of Alameda became Mrs. Edward M. Drotloff of Oakland yesterday afternoon. The ceremony that united them as they stood at the site of the newly-completed Park Street Bridge symbolized the uniting of the two cities by the huge structure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a huge party. There was a parade, marathon runners from oakland, and the mayors of the two towns clasped hands as hundreds came out to see the new bridge. The same one that stands today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are 14 bridge tenders that work the Alameda bridges, and they switch between all 6 of the bridges. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I go to visit the High Street Bridge, Vincent Cerletti is the bridge tender on duty. He’s wearing orange alameda county coveralls, and a psychedelic trucker hat for a disc golf supply company. This bridge sees less traffic, so has a calmer vibe.. Across the water I can see houseboats bobbing up and down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s a lot going on out there. It’s peaceful. The birds. Oh man. When you get these huge flocks that come flying in here and settle into the estuary, it’s like a, like a painting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Vincent has been a bridge tender for more than ten years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the first regular thing that I got into that gave me a stability working for the county, which has been awesome. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he’s seen some things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like a guy with a couch once came down with a, a, you know, like the small little trolling motor on the back? I think he was floating on, on a piece of a dock with a couch on it. A little motor. He’s fishing. He was having a good time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says that in order to be a bridge tender, you have to be ok with spending a lot of time by yourself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some guys paint, paint, little, uh, pictures, you know, watercolors of the boats and stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says one bridge tender fixes electronics to pass the time. Vincent, likes to bring his Ukelele. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So I just, uh, yeah. Sit here and.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>(Ukelele Music)\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And when you’re here on like, you know, Christmas Day and New Year’s Eve and Thanksgiving, I worked all those holidays this year. I dunno, you gotta have somewhat of a little hobby to pass the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you ever feel lonely? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. Yeah, it’s kind of hard to have a relationship if you’re doing graveyards, you know, seven nights of the month and you’re on swing shift. So you take off at two o’clock and get home at 11. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Being a bridge tender can be tough, but its also rewarding. Here’s Damon, the bridge tender we heard from in the beginning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>It’s honest work. It’s, uh, and it’s kind of a special thing, these sort of infrastructure, this kind of machinery, this sort of job. It, it does. There’s not a lot of it left, and, uh, I’m proud to be part of it. I am.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says he’s started to bring his kids to work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was KQED’s Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you want to learn more about Alameda, including how it isn’t actually a natural island – hit up our show notes where we’ve linked some other Bay Curious episodes you might enjoy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is gearing up for KQED Fest – an all-day open house at KQED’s headquarters in San Francisco. It’s a block party with educational activities, live music, food, and more! I’ll be doing a fireside chat about how we make Bay Curious at 11:15 a.m. Tickets are free, but you do need to register. You can do it at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/live\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/live\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Christopher Beale, Katrina Schwartz and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We get extra support from Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Big thanks to all our members out there who help keep Bay Curious going. If you aren’t a member yet – please consider joining at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like many people who travel to and from the city of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/alameda\">Alameda\u003c/a>, Sarah Reid, one day, found herself facing a bridge that was temporarily disconnected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Park Street Bridge, a forest green drawbridge, about the length of a football field, had split open, casting the four-lane bridge at a 70-degree angle in the air so a boat could pass underneath.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The opening and closing of Alameda’s drawbridges is a familiar ritual for people who travel to the Bay Area’s island city. Alameda is connected to the rest of the Bay Area by six bridges, as well as two underwater tunnels. All but two of the bridges are required to open 24 hours a day, sometimes on very short notice, in order to let ships travel down the Oakland Estuary, which separates Alameda and Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With nothing to do but to wait, Reid peered through her windshield and noticed a little tower connected to the bridge, with a room full of windows at the top. She wondered if someone was inside that room, and what they did up there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I remember wondering, does someone just sit there all day? And what is that like?” Reid said. “What’s a good day look like? What’s a bad day? What’s the weirdest thing that’s ever happened?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070402\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070402\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The High Street Bridge begins to lift over the Oakland-Alameda Estuary on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>There was, in fact, a bridge tender in the control tower of the Park Street Bridge that day, just as there has been for decades. Bridge tenders are the workers responsible for safely opening and closing the bridges, so that people both on land and on water can move through the area. It’s a job that comes with life -or-death public safety risks, stunning views, ample alone time, and a strong connection to the history of the island city itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A public service job with risks\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“ It’s the best job in the world,” said John Williams, a bridge tender for Alameda County Public Works Agency, who has held the job for 16 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Williams was the bridge tender on duty at the Park Street Bridge on a sunny winter morning earlier this year. From his perch inside the control tower, Williams could see up and down the estuary, with Berkeley and downtown Oakland in the distance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One end of the room is all business: with a control panel for operating the drawbridge, a maritime radio, security cameras, a log book and a laptop. In a corner of the other side of the room is a little kitchenette. On that particular day, there was a French press and an avocado sitting on the counter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because the bridges are staffed 24/7, with bridge tenders working day, swing and graveyard shifts, each bridge control tower has its own kitchenette and bathroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Williams said the perks include beautiful sunsets, great wildlife viewing and dedicated colleagues. But he also takes pride in being a public servant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our first job is to make sure no one gets hurt while we’re operating these massive machines,” Williams said. “You could crush a car or kill somebody if you’re not following procedure properly.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said being a bridge tender requires constant vigilance, ensuring nobody is in harm’s way when the bridge is moving. Still, there have been accidents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People will run on the bridge while it’s moving, and I think twice we’ve had people run their cars through the barrier,” Williams said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s just the terrestrial side of his worries. The bridge also needs to be opened in a timely manner so that a boat doesn’t hit it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’ll get a call and tug and barge is coming in with 20 tons of gravel, and a fat tide and wind behind them, and you have to open the bridge because it’s very hard for them to stop,” Williams said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Boats can schedule openings ahead of time or call to request one. The bridges don’t open during the morning and afternoon rush hour unless a boat captain makes an appointment at least two hours ahead of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Williams is relaxed and friendly in his downtime at work, but when it comes time to open the bridge, he gets intensely focused. When opening the bridge, the first thing he does is open all the blinds in the control tower, so he has full visibility. He stops speaking to anyone else around so that he can concentrate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He activates an alarm bell as he makes an announcement over a loudspeaker, telling the public to stand clear. Then he drops the gates that block the road and sidewalk leading to the bridge. He double and triple checks the security cameras and walks out on a little catwalk adjacent to the tower to verify that nobody is on the bridge. Then he initiates the opening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Metal locks underneath the bridge disconnect, an electric motor deep in the bowels below the bridge begins to whir, a massive counterweight sinks into a pit and the bridge begins to rise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070399\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070399\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A flock of pigeons flies near the Park Street Bridge over the Oakland Estuary on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For second-generation bridge tender Damon Wallace, it’s a special moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re these giant machines, and you don’t realize it until you’re up in the tower the first time and you press that button, and then your world starts to tilt sideways,” Wallace, whose father and uncle worked as bridge tenders, said as he gazed up at the bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“For a minute, you get to just sit there and watch this amazing, surreal thing happen right in front of you. It’s one of my favorite things,” Wallace said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the bridge reaches its apex, Williams repeats the process in reverse until the bridge is back together, and the traffic on the bridge resumes again.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The chaotic past of Alameda’s bridges\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Ever since early European settlers founded the city of Alameda, its residents have had to navigate getting across the strip of water and marshland separating it from Oakland, and bridge tenders have been part of that history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The problem started in the 1870s when people on the west end of Alameda complained, ‘Oakland’s right there, we sure would like to get over there,” Alameda historian Dennis Evanosky said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, Alameda wasn’t yet an island, but connected to Oakland by a marshy stretch of land at its eastern end. Years later, in 1902, the Army Corps of Engineers would finish work dredging that channel, flooding the area connecting Oakland’s inner harbor with San Leandro Bay, making Alameda an island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, even before that, crossing the marshy stretch of land connecting it to Oakland wasn’t easy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first bridge to connect Alameda to Oakland was the Webster Street bridge, built by Alameda County in 1871. It’s now long gone. And pretty much from the get-go, it had its fair share of tragedies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Webster Street Bridge was a disaster,” Evanosky said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It wasn’t a drawbridge, but rather a swing bridge that could turn 90 degrees, out of the way of ship traffic. This was the design of most early Alameda bridges. Evanosky said it was hit by ships multiple times, and in 1900 was the site of a tragic train accident in which 13 people were killed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Webster Street bridge couldn’t catch a break. It was destroyed and rebuilt three more times, and its successors were the site of more ship collisions, a fire, and an attempted bombing, according to Bernard C. Winn, the author of \u003cem>California Drawbridges\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>County officials made the decision to dismantle the bridge in 1928, after the construction of the Webster Street Tube, an underwater tunnel connecting Oakland and Alameda, made it obsolete. This is the pattern most of Alameda’s bridges have followed. Some don’t exist anymore, but the ones that do have been rebuilt at least once.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070403\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070403\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Vincent Cerletti, the High Street Bridge operator with the Alameda County Public Works Agency, sits at the controls used to raise and lower the drawbridge over the Oakland-Alameda Estuary on Jan. 13, 2026, in Alameda. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But it hasn’t been all ship strikes and disasters. Alameda residents have had some fun along the way. Evanosky said early Alameda residents used to “ride the bridges,” clinging on as the bridges swung open and taking them for a ride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>People even did this on the current version of the Park Street Bridge. Clinging on as the drawbridge raised open.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s pretty dangerous. So they put a stop to that,” Evanosky said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The cities of Alameda and Oakland commemorated the opening of the current version of the Park Street Bridge in 1935, with a wedding between a woman from Alameda, Edith Bird, and a man from Oakland, Edward M. Drotloff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newspaper clippings from the time describe it as a huge party. There was a parade, marathon runners from Oakland, and the mayors of the two towns clasped hands as hundreds came out to see the new bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What it takes\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>At the High Street Bridge control tower, just a half-mile down up the estuary from the Park Street Bridge, Vincent Cerletti strummed his ukulele in a moment of downtime during his shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ Part of the job is to stare out the window and the ukulele accompanies it pretty good,” Cerletti said. “You have to have somewhat of a little hobby to pass the time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070401\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070401\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Vincent Cerletti, the High Street Bridge operator, looks out from the bridge’s operator tower on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. The Miller-Sweeney Bridge is visible in the distance. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He said other bridge tenders paint watercolors or fix small electronics between bridge openings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cerletti has been a bridge tender since 2014, and said the stability of working for Alameda County has been great, he said. But the job can get a little lonely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ You have to be able to be comfortable with yourself sitting up here too, because you can get go a little stir crazy being alone all the time,” Cerletti said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Generations of bridge tenders\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The work of being a bridge tender has seeped into Damon Wallace’s bones. Wallace fondly remembers moments from his youth, like when he greeted his father at the door in the morning after a graveyard shift, noticing the smell of oil, grease and work his father would bring home with him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ I started working here and I was like, ‘oh, that’s that smell,’ I get it now,” Wallace said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070400\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070400\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Steel beams and the roadway deck are seen as the Park Street Bridge lifts over the Oakland-Alameda Estuary on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. The double-leaf bascule bridge spans 372 feet and is raised to about 70 degrees for most openings. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Even the sound of rubber car tires driving on the bridges’ metal road deck, a sort of ever-present drone around the bridges, has become soothing for him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ Over the years, I’ve gotten to actually look and put hands on these things and understand what they are for and why they’re here. My childhood became my adulthood, and my world got bigger somehow,” Wallace said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said he’s started to bring his children to work with him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ It’s honest work, and it’s kind of a special thing, this sort of infrastructure, this kind of machinery, this sort of job,” Wallace said. “There’s not a lot of it left, and I’m proud to be part of it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey everyone! This is Bay Curious. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Crossing bridges can be essential to getting around the Bay Area. No matter what side of the water you live on, odds are, you’re probably going to use a bridge sooner than later. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And for the people who live, work or just hang out in the City of Alameda, crossing a bridge is almost non-negotiable. The island is connected to the rest of the Bay by six drawbridges, as well as two underwater tunnels, that span the Oakland Estuary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When those bridges open to let a boat pass, everybody has to wait. One day, Sarah Reid was in her car, watching the Park Street bridge open, when she noticed a little room attached to one of the bridges. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I remember looking up at those little rooms wondering, does someone just sit up there all day? And what is that like, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She also wants to hear some stories …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s a good day look like? What’s a bad da y? What’s the weirdest thing that’s ever happened \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Turns out – yeah! There’s a bridge tender sitting in that little room 24/7. And they’ve seen a lot! KQED’s Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman has the story.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Cars on Bridge Noise\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Car tires hum against the steel deck of the Park Street Bridge. This hypnotic drone is the bridge’s soundtrack. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I grew up on these bridges. Um, the sound of the cars going overhead is, is soothing to me. It’s like a, it’s a comfort thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Damon Wallace, he’s a bridge utility worker for Alameda County’s Public Works Agency.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve been doing that for about two years, and prior to that I was a bridge tender. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bridge tenders are the people that operate Alameda’s drawbridges. It runs in his family, his father and his uncle both held the job when he was a kid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My dad 25 years. Uh, my uncle, uh, a little bit less than that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re standing in the machinery room underneath the Park Street Bridge…its a large concrete bunker full of tools and the giant electrical motor that opens and closes the bridge\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like a little Home Depot in here, just for the bridge, they’ve got everything they need to keep the bridge running which is essential because The Park Street Bridge is the busiest of Alameda’s bridges. Around 40,000 vehicles travel across its four lanes on an average weekday. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Up on the deck of the bridge, which is about the length of a football field we can see Berkeley, downtown Oakland, and ships at the Port of Oakland. We walk up to the bridge tower. It’s fixed on the Alameda side of the bridge, and almost looks like a little miniature clock tower. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carl Speaker:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Knock, knock. Hello. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Come on up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carl Speaker:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How you doing, John? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We head up a spiral staircase to the top floor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome to Park Street Bridge, uh, Alameda County Public Works Agency. How you doing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John Williams is the bridge tender on duty right now. He’s got a big white beard and his orange public works shirt tucked into his work pants. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s the best job in the world, you know, I mean, I, it’s really an excellent job \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The top floor is just one room with windows all around, giving the operator a 360 degree view of the bridge and the Oakland estuary. One end is all business: with a control panel for operating the drawbridge, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. There are a lot of big red buttons there, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">right? There are. And you don’t just randomly push them either. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, that’s too bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s also a maritime radio, security cameras, a log book and a laptop. In a corner of the other side of the room is a little kitchenette, there’s a french press and an avocado sitting on the counter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve seen a lot of wildlife out here over, over the years. You know, way l one time, lot of otters now and then, um, a lot of seabirds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some great sunsets too. John says he found the job on Craigslist. Besides the perks, he says this job has some big responsibilities. Public safety is their number one concern. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Our first job is to make sure no one gets hurt while we’re operating these massive machines.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A normal opening of the bridge splits the road deck in half, tons of concrete and steel lift into the sky at a 70 degree angle, about 143 feet in the air. The process requires constant vigilance and double, triple checking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cause people will run on the bridge while it’s moving. They’ll go underneath the barriers. I think twice we’ve had people run their cars through the barrier. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s just keeping the PEOPLE safe. The bridge also needs to be opened in a timely manner so that a boat doesn’t hit it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You get a call and tug and barge is coming in with like, you know whatever, 20 tons of gravel, you know, with a, a fat tide behind them pushing ’em in, in wind, and you have to open the bridge. You can’t not open the bridge. It’s very hard for ’em to stop. Really hard for ’em to stop.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All but two of Alameda’s drawbridges are staffed around the clock because ships, including the nearby Coast Guard base, need to be able to travel up and down the estuary at all hours. On a busy day, the Park Street bridge might open and close 14 different times. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I could be in a crowd of a thousand people and if somebody on the other side of that crowd said Park Street Bridge, I would hear them. Because I’m trained to hear it, you know, the radio call.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Boats can schedule openings ahead of time, or just call to request one. The bridges don’t open during the morning and afternoon rush hour unless a boat makes an appointment\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John comes off pretty relaxed and friendly, but when it comes time to open the bridge, he gets intensely focused. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right now, there isn’t a ship passing, this is an operational check, that the tenders do from time to time, to make sure everything is working as it should. John starts by opening all the blinds in the little tower room. He wants full visibility. And he stops talking to me. He says he needs to concentrate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">St and clear for bridge opening. Please stand clear for Park Street Bridge opening\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First he drops the gates and barriers to keep cars and pedestrians off the bridge, and makes sure all the traffic is stopped. Then he walks out on a little catwalk extending out from the tower, and double checks that nobody is in harms way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of birds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just then, recordings of birds play underneath the bridge, in an attempt to shoo nesting pigeons away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then it gets pretty quiet. The hum of traffic stops, and the bridge begins to rise. You can hear the electrical motors whirring. For Damon, the second generation bridge worker, it’s a special moment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s these giant machines, and you don’t realize they’re machines until you’re up in the tower the first time and you press that button and the your world starts to tilt sideways.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says there’s something magical about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For a minute you get to just sit there and watch this amazing, surreal thing happened right in front of you. And it’s, it’s, it’s one of my favorite things, you know? It always has been. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the bridge sticking straight up in the air, John checks again before letting it down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, you guys. All right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voices: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">good!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Coming down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then, John guides the bridge slowly back down, metal locks click back together underneath the road deck, and the traffic starts again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s clear the bridge tenders are essential. But in this world of technological innovation, especially artificial intelligence, I wonder, how much longer will these jobs be around? I put that question to John Medlock, he’s the Deputy Director of Maintenance Operation for Alameda County, PublicWorks Agency.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Medlock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At some point in time, you know, maybe, maybe everything needs to be replaced. We’ll probably find new technology or, or new way of spanning the, uh, the estuary. But right now that’s what we have and love it or hate it. If that’s what we have. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He thinks the bridge tenders, will be around for the foreseeable future. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When we return – some history of these drawbridges. And the unique ways bridge tenders pass the time. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Nowadays Alameda’s bridges are a reliable way to get on and off the island. But it wasn’t always that way. Here’s Azul again…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ever since early European settlers founded the city of Alameda, its residents have had to navigate getting across the strip of water and marshland … separating it from Oakland. And bridge tenders have been part of that history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The problem started in, in the, in the 1870s when people on the west end of Alameda complained, ‘Boy Oakland’s right over there. We’d like to get over there.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s historian Dennis Evanosky. The first bridge to connect Alameda to what’s now Oakland was the Webster Street bridge, built by Alameda County in 1871. It’s now long gone. And pretty much from the get go, it had its fair share of tragedies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Webster Street Bridge was a disaster. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It wasn’t a drawbridge, but rather a swing bridge, that could turn 90 degrees, out of the way of ship traffic. This was the design of most early Alameda bridges. But Evanosky says it was hit by ships multiple times, and in 1900 was the site of a tragic train accident. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They misunderstood a signal and, and the, the whole train dumped into the estuary.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thirteen people were killed. The Webster Street bridge couldn’t catch a break. It was destroyed and rebuilt 3 more times, and its successors were the site of more ship collisions, a fire, and an attempted bombing. The bridge was dismantled for the last time, shortly after the construction of the Webster Street Tube in 1928., the tube is an underwater tunnel connecting Oakland and Alameda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s kind of the story of all of Alameda’s bridges. Some don’t exist anymore, but the ones that do have been rebuilt, at least once.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So each of the bridges has two lives. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it hasn’t been all ship strikes and disasters. Alameda residents have had some fun along the way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then the people, uh, who, who were really close by when they heard the boat toot for permission, they’d all run down there and they’d ride the bridge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…Climbing on the bridge as it swung open and taking it for a ride. People even did this on the current version of the park street bridge. Clinging on as the drawbridge raised open. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s pretty dangerous. So they, they, they put a stop to that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The cities of Alameda and Oakland commemorated the opening of the latest Park Street Bridge in 1935, with a wedding between a woman from Alameda and a man from Oakland.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over reading newspaper clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Miss Edith Bird of Alameda became Mrs. Edward M. Drotloff of Oakland yesterday afternoon. The ceremony that united them as they stood at the site of the newly-completed Park Street Bridge symbolized the uniting of the two cities by the huge structure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a huge party. There was a parade, marathon runners from oakland, and the mayors of the two towns clasped hands as hundreds came out to see the new bridge. The same one that stands today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are 14 bridge tenders that work the Alameda bridges, and they switch between all 6 of the bridges. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I go to visit the High Street Bridge, Vincent Cerletti is the bridge tender on duty. He’s wearing orange alameda county coveralls, and a psychedelic trucker hat for a disc golf supply company. This bridge sees less traffic, so has a calmer vibe.. Across the water I can see houseboats bobbing up and down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s a lot going on out there. It’s peaceful. The birds. Oh man. When you get these huge flocks that come flying in here and settle into the estuary, it’s like a, like a painting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Vincent has been a bridge tender for more than ten years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the first regular thing that I got into that gave me a stability working for the county, which has been awesome. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he’s seen some things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like a guy with a couch once came down with a, a, you know, like the small little trolling motor on the back? I think he was floating on, on a piece of a dock with a couch on it. A little motor. He’s fishing. He was having a good time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says that in order to be a bridge tender, you have to be ok with spending a lot of time by yourself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some guys paint, paint, little, uh, pictures, you know, watercolors of the boats and stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says one bridge tender fixes electronics to pass the time. Vincent, likes to bring his Ukelele. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So I just, uh, yeah. Sit here and.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>(Ukelele Music)\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And when you’re here on like, you know, Christmas Day and New Year’s Eve and Thanksgiving, I worked all those holidays this year. I dunno, you gotta have somewhat of a little hobby to pass the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you ever feel lonely? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. Yeah, it’s kind of hard to have a relationship if you’re doing graveyards, you know, seven nights of the month and you’re on swing shift. So you take off at two o’clock and get home at 11. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Being a bridge tender can be tough, but its also rewarding. Here’s Damon, the bridge tender we heard from in the beginning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>It’s honest work. It’s, uh, and it’s kind of a special thing, these sort of infrastructure, this kind of machinery, this sort of job. It, it does. There’s not a lot of it left, and, uh, I’m proud to be part of it. I am.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says he’s started to bring his kids to work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was KQED’s Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you want to learn more about Alameda, including how it isn’t actually a natural island – hit up our show notes where we’ve linked some other Bay Curious episodes you might enjoy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is gearing up for KQED Fest – an all-day open house at KQED’s headquarters in San Francisco. It’s a block party with educational activities, live music, food, and more! I’ll be doing a fireside chat about how we make Bay Curious at 11:15 a.m. Tickets are free, but you do need to register. You can do it at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/live\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/live\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Christopher Beale, Katrina Schwartz and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We get extra support from Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Big thanks to all our members out there who help keep Bay Curious going. If you aren’t a member yet – please consider joining at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "why-its-taken-concord-40-years-to-turn-a-former-bomb-site-into-a-neighborhood",
"title": "Why It’s Taking Concord Decades to Turn a Former Bomb Site into a Neighborhood",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Suzanne Howard loves living in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/east-bay\">Walnut Creek\u003c/a>. She said it’s safe, walkable and she bikes everywhere. The only downside? She lives right next to a 12-lane freeway.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[I’m] super thankful to have a house, but… noise pollution is a little much,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One day, Howard was daydreaming about living near open space and started looking around online for places that fit the bill. Is it even possible to buy a house in the East Bay next to undeveloped land?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And there, in Concord, behind a local high school, was a swath of green rolling hills big enough to accommodate a new airport. When she zoomed in, she saw puzzling features, grass mounds in a grid pattern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What is this?” she wondered to herself. “Could we build housing there? It’s prime real estate, why not?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those grassy mounds in a grid pattern are huge concrete bunkers, wider than a train car, used by the Navy for more than 60 years to store weapons, bombs and ammunition.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>What happened at the former Concord Naval Weapons Station\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Dozens of these ammunition bunkers, grass-covered trapezoids poking up from the landscape, are what’s known as “bunker city,” just one part of a 5,000-acre inland section of a military base called the Concord Naval Weapons Station. The storage units are empty now, but they once stored the weapons of war that the Navy needed to fight wars from the 1940s all the way through the \u003ca href=\"https://www.history.com/articles/persian-gulf-war\">1991 Gulf War\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Railroads connected this inland base to the bay where artillery was loaded onto warships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081249\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081249\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Kathy Gleason looks through her back fence at the former Concord Naval Weapons Station in Concord on April 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“In years gone by, we could hear trains moving at night out there,” said Kathy Gleason, who moved next to the Naval base back in 1974. “They were moving munitions.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even though Kathy’s backyard is separated from bunker city by just two fences, you can’t tell she lives next to a military site. By design, the mounds blend into the lush green landscape to camouflage them from enemies coming by air or by foot. Besides the mounds, there aren’t many buildings. And it has always been relatively quiet here, with vistas of sheep and cattle grazing. That’s what drew her here in the first place, 50 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We used to see tule elk roaming around,” Gleason said. “Now we see turkeys, we hear coyotes, we’ll see deer every now and then. It’s pretty peaceful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then in 2005, everything changed. The Concord Naval Weapons Station closed, as part of a federal initiative — the Base Realignment and Closure process (BRAC) — to cut military costs and adapt to new systems of warfare. Through BRAC, hundreds of military sites shuttered nationwide, including \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12022479/why-are-there-so-many-abandoned-military-bases-in-the-bay-area\">dozens in the Bay Area\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12080794 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01913_TV.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Immediately, the city of Concord started making plans for redevelopment. The 5,200 acres behind Gleason’s house would change hands. She feared a big developer would swoop in to turn it into a metropolis, and before that, a big, noisy construction zone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We all kind of panicked,” Gleason said. “We wanted our peace and quiet, and we were concerned about what’s in the soil. What’s going to happen with that when they develop?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gleason became a key organizer in the Concord Naval Weapons Station Neighborhood Alliance, which tabled at farmers markets, knocked on doors, and showed up at city planning meetings advocating to keep the weapons station land untouched and open.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We were like the old town people that went down Main Street with pitchforks and torches. We were so angry,” Gleason said about their organizing efforts back in 2006.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We told them, we are not going away. We want this preserved.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Reenvisioning ‘Bunker City’ \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Twenty years later, all the peace and quiet that the Concord Neighborhood Alliance wanted is still there. Not a single permanent structure has been built on the former weapons base yet. What’s the holdup?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>First, the city went through a seven-year process of engaging residents to come up with a master vision for the site. It culminated in \u003ca href=\"https://concordreuseproject.org/152/The-Area-Plan\">the 2012 area plan\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081257\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081257\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Josh Roden, a developer at Brookfield Residential working with the city of Concord to redevelop the Concord Naval Weapons Station, stands on a hillside overlooking the former naval base in Concord on April 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>All the while, there was a lot of cleanup and bureaucracy. The Navy had to remove \u003ca href=\"https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/SiteProfiles/index.cfm?fuseaction=second.cleanup&id=0902778\">arsenic and lead\u003c/a> from the soil and groundwater. The city had contracts with two developers before the current one. One \u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/labor-dispute-stalls-redevelopment-of-concord-naval-weapons-station/2210946/\">jumped ship,\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/deal-for-planned-development-at-concord-naval-weapons-station-collapses/\">one was booted\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the slow and deliberate pace the Navy and city have been on is not necessarily a bad thing, the current master developer said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Concord did a really good job of engaging the entire community,” said Josh Roden, president of Brookfield Northern California, which is \u003ca href=\"https://concordreuseproject.org/\">managing the redevelopment of the site\u003c/a>. “It’s a lot of work and effort, and it can be a little painful to manage.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Roden’s team is now tasked with implementing the specifics of the 2012 general plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s like building a small city,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Concord residents expect 12,000 residential units, which is roughly equivalent to the nearby town of Pleasant Hill, home to 34,000 people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Six million square feet are earmarked for retail, office and institutional space, and businesses such as hotels and restaurants, which will be most dense near the North Concord Bart Station. That’s more space than the footprint of Disneyland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There will be a sports complex and city park, stretching over 175 acres, and a higher education campus, like a college or technical school, along with elementary and middle schools. Fire and police stations will be built, as well as a food bank, and a pedestrian path along Mount Diablo Creek.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The plans are grand and exciting, but Concord residents will have to wait a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Roden said construction won’t break ground until 2030, and it will probably be “a 40-year build out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first phase includes housing near the North Concord BART station. Residents can expect more electric vehicle infrastructure, denser housing, and retail space blended with other leisure activities. How quickly it all moves along depends on the health of the economy, Roden said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081248\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081248\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Kathy Gleason’s home abuts the former Concord Naval Weapons Station in Concord on April 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Open space advocates like Kathy Gleason have already had a notable win. Half of the inland naval base — roughly 2,500 acres, has already been handed over to East Bay Regional Parks. \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/parks/thurgood-marshall-regional-park-home-port-chicago-50\">Thurgood Marshall Regional Park\u003c/a> is not yet open to the public, but when it does, visitors will be able to see the ammunition bunkers during historic tours.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We put years of our time into preserving what we can out here,” said Gleason, who also said she now understands that housing is a critical need in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Let’s make it as good as we can for future generations. And that’s the best we can do,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Suzanne Howard of Walnut Creek said she’s glad the Concord housing development will be near open space. She just hopes she’s alive when it all comes to fruition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s kind of scary how long it takes,” she said. But sometimes, “good things take time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey everyone! This is Bay Curious — the podcast that answers listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We recently got a question from a woman named Suzanne Howard. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She bought a house with her husband in Walnut Creek two years ago and she loves the place. How it feels safe and walkable to lots of shops. They bike everywhere. But one thing gives Suzanne a little buyer’s remorse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s right next to the 12 lane freeway. It’s super noisy, super thankful to have a house, but like quality of life noise pollution is a little much.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One day, Suzanne was feeling curious, and she started studying online maps, looking for open space in the East Bay. Where could more housing be built near her that might offer a little more peace and quiet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I found as I zoomed out, I saw east of Concord High School green open fields, gorgeous greenery hillside, some streets. And then little mounds, little grass mounds which, all in a grid pattern. What is this thing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Five thousand acres of open space with seemingly nothing going on. It wasn’t a park or anything. Just a big open area and those mounds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Could we build housing there? It’s prime real estate, why not? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. On today’s episode, we asked KQED’s Pauline Bartolone to scout out that area behind Concord High School. What are those grassy mounds in a grid pattern? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll give you a hint, it’s not a cemetery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ok. Is it open to the public? Can I go on a walk there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, right now, no. In a few years, probably.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What about Suzanne’s question, could housing be built there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, actually that’s in the works, we’ll get to more on that in a minute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ok, so tell me what you saw when you went out there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well I found someone who lives right near Concord High School, and those 5,000 acres of rolling hills are right behind her house. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My name is Kathy Gleason. We’re in Concord in my backyard, and looking at the Concord Naval Weapons Station. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Concord Naval Weapons Station. That property our listener Suzanne saw on the map, belongs to the Navy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">During World War 2, the navy stored tons of explosives here in huge concrete bunkers camouflaged with earth to look like grassy hills. Those are the mounds Suzanne saw on the map. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Go ahead. You can see the bunkers back there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over a hundred concrete weapons storage units here supplied bullets, missiles, bombs, anything the military needed for combat all the way up to the first Gulf War. Railroads connected this inland base to the Bay where artillery was loaded onto warships. When Kathy moved here in 1974, it was active.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In years gone by, we could hear trains moving at night out there. So they were moving munitions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kathy says she loves living next to a weapons base… because.. it’s quiet. Those ammo bunker mounds…. they’re empty now… and they blend into the lush green landscape… And there aren’t many other buildings there. She says it’s always been pretty calm, part of what drew her here in the first place 50 years ago. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Who wouldn’t like this in their backyard? You can hear that plane, but other than that it’s pretty quiet. When we first moved in, there were a lot of sheep out there. There’s still a lot of cattle out there grazing. So we used to see tule elk roaming around, now we see turkeys, we hear coyotes, we’ll see deer every now and then. It’s pretty peaceful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then Concord residents got news that could change everything. The weapons station would close in 2005. This huge swath of open land, roughly the size of San Francisco International airport, was going to change hands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We all kind of panicked. All the neighbors along here kind of panic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They worried a developer would swoop in and build a metropolis, a big noisy construction project.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We wanted our peace and quiet, and we were concerned about what’s in the soil. What’s going to happen with that when they develop? And the noise and everything that would go with developing a project this big, this is huge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Concord Naval Weapons Station closure was part of a federal project to cut military costs. It was called BRAC, the Base Realignment and Closure process. Hundreds of military sites shuttered nationwide. Immediately, the city of Concord started making plans for redevelopment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were so angry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Locally, Kathy quickly became a key organizer among neighbors pushing to keep the weapons station land untouched and open.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We quickly got a group together, went down the City Hall. Surprised the hell out of the city council members because we were like the old town people that went down Main Street with pitchforks and torches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For years, they tabled at farmers markets and knocked on people’s doors to educate Concord residents about the potential for development. And of course, they were squeaky wheels at city council meetings and planning commission hearings.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We told them, we are not going away, you know, listen to us, we’re not going away, we want this preserved.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they got their wish, in part. Half of the area behind Kathy’s house has been handed over to east bay regional parks. The old ammo bunkers there will become part of historic tours. And when it opens, locals can hike, camp or have a picnic next to protected wildlife areas. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We put years of our time into preserving what we can out here. We hope that it works. We slowed down after we got the park. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Coming up, we’ll learn how the other half of the land will be used. That’s after this quick break. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> KQED’s Pauline Bartolone takes us back to the Concord mounds, to find out what’s planned here. But this time, from a different vantage point. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kathy and her neighbors were up in arms about plans to build on the military site next to their homes. That was two decades ago, and all that peace and quiet? It’s still there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We are looking out over the valley or floor area of old bunker city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Josh Roden is a private developer, and he took me onto the old Concord Naval Weapons station. From our vantage point you can see the former weapons storage clearly… dozens of massive trapezoids poking up from the soil. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re mostly concrete bunkers with earth over them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Josh heads up Brookfield Residential in Northern California, which is working with the city of Concord to redevelop the navy base based on a roadmap Concord residents like Kathy helped create. When it’s done, the site will have housing, businesses, schools and parks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Concord did a really good job of engaging the entire community, getting a whole bunch of feedback. It’s a lot of work and effort, and it can be a little painful to manage through that, because it’s a lot of opinions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But so far, it’s been a lot of discussion, 20 years worth. And not a single permanent structure has been built here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the most important parts is the first, being able to flush a toilet and turn a light on. So we really do have to go bring power. We have to bring potable water, we have to bring storm drains.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, what’s the hold up? Well, there’s been a lot of clean up and bureaucracy. The Navy had to remove \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/SiteProfiles/index.cfm?fuseaction=second.cleanup&id=0902778\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">arsenic and lead\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> from the soil and groundwater. The city had contracts with two developers before the current one. One jumped ship and one was booted. And before all that, Concord spent seven years coming up with a master plan with residents. A vision for the site.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they ended up coming up with what we think is a very reasonable and good area plan, but it did take some time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And their plans are grand… just down the hill from where Josh and I are standing, will be some of the 12,000 residential homes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The number of units, the size of it is similar to Pleasant Hill. So for context the population that it would generate. It’s similar to Pleasant Hill.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’d be housing for something like 34-thousand people. Also in the plan are retail and office space, most dense near the North Concord Bart Station.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hotels and maybe more restaurants and a place people go leisure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there’s the outline for a sports park – stretching over 175 acres – and a higher education campus, like a college or technical school.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We are also coordinating some of the elementary school, middle school potentially to be in that vicinity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fire stations, police stations. A food bank and a pedestrian path along Mt Diablo creek, All the amenities of a town.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s like building a small city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That may sound exciting but it will all take a looong time. Like decades. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Currently, it’s planned out for probably a 40 year build out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They won’t even break ground until 2031, and there’s still some bureaucratic hurdles. Ultimately, Josh says how quickly it gets built depends on the health of the economy, Housing is what pays off for the developer, so the the first to go up will be homes close to the North Concord BART station. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite her early reservations about building on the site, Kathy has had a bit of a change of heart about new housing. She says the Bay Area needs it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were not as panicked as we were. I think I do understand. Let’s do it. Let’s make it as good as we can for future generations. And that’s the best we can do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a long time. Geez. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I took all this back to Suzanne Howard, our question asker. She likes that the Concord development will have open space near it, not a 12 lane highway like the one next to her house. As far as taking more than half a century to finish the new housing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s kind of scary how long it takes. But hopefully, you know, assuming positive intent and the cleanup hopefully is being very thorough and good things take time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She just hopes she’s alive to see it come to fruition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was KQED’s Pauline Bartolone.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks to our question asker this week, Suzanne. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did you know that we send a little thank you gift to each question asker? Just one more reason to take a few minutes and send your burning question our way! Ask at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, or shoot us an email at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is our last Monday episode during our experimental period of dropping two episodes a week. We’ve learned so much — and had a lot of fun answering twice as many of your questions these past few months. We always planned this to be a limited-term trial — so we’re back to our once a week publishing schedule next week. If you have thoughts or feedback for us as we take stock and move forward, email us at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by me, Olivia Allen Price, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and you! Yes you are a producer on this show if you are a member of KQED. Your financial support makes everything possible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Deep gratitude to all the KQED members out there, and if you aren’t one yet, join us! Give at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Suzanne Howard loves living in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/east-bay\">Walnut Creek\u003c/a>. She said it’s safe, walkable and she bikes everywhere. The only downside? She lives right next to a 12-lane freeway.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[I’m] super thankful to have a house, but… noise pollution is a little much,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One day, Howard was daydreaming about living near open space and started looking around online for places that fit the bill. Is it even possible to buy a house in the East Bay next to undeveloped land?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And there, in Concord, behind a local high school, was a swath of green rolling hills big enough to accommodate a new airport. When she zoomed in, she saw puzzling features, grass mounds in a grid pattern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What is this?” she wondered to herself. “Could we build housing there? It’s prime real estate, why not?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those grassy mounds in a grid pattern are huge concrete bunkers, wider than a train car, used by the Navy for more than 60 years to store weapons, bombs and ammunition.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>What happened at the former Concord Naval Weapons Station\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Dozens of these ammunition bunkers, grass-covered trapezoids poking up from the landscape, are what’s known as “bunker city,” just one part of a 5,000-acre inland section of a military base called the Concord Naval Weapons Station. The storage units are empty now, but they once stored the weapons of war that the Navy needed to fight wars from the 1940s all the way through the \u003ca href=\"https://www.history.com/articles/persian-gulf-war\">1991 Gulf War\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Railroads connected this inland base to the bay where artillery was loaded onto warships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081249\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081249\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Kathy Gleason looks through her back fence at the former Concord Naval Weapons Station in Concord on April 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“In years gone by, we could hear trains moving at night out there,” said Kathy Gleason, who moved next to the Naval base back in 1974. “They were moving munitions.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even though Kathy’s backyard is separated from bunker city by just two fences, you can’t tell she lives next to a military site. By design, the mounds blend into the lush green landscape to camouflage them from enemies coming by air or by foot. Besides the mounds, there aren’t many buildings. And it has always been relatively quiet here, with vistas of sheep and cattle grazing. That’s what drew her here in the first place, 50 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We used to see tule elk roaming around,” Gleason said. “Now we see turkeys, we hear coyotes, we’ll see deer every now and then. It’s pretty peaceful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then in 2005, everything changed. The Concord Naval Weapons Station closed, as part of a federal initiative — the Base Realignment and Closure process (BRAC) — to cut military costs and adapt to new systems of warfare. Through BRAC, hundreds of military sites shuttered nationwide, including \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12022479/why-are-there-so-many-abandoned-military-bases-in-the-bay-area\">dozens in the Bay Area\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Immediately, the city of Concord started making plans for redevelopment. The 5,200 acres behind Gleason’s house would change hands. She feared a big developer would swoop in to turn it into a metropolis, and before that, a big, noisy construction zone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We all kind of panicked,” Gleason said. “We wanted our peace and quiet, and we were concerned about what’s in the soil. What’s going to happen with that when they develop?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gleason became a key organizer in the Concord Naval Weapons Station Neighborhood Alliance, which tabled at farmers markets, knocked on doors, and showed up at city planning meetings advocating to keep the weapons station land untouched and open.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We were like the old town people that went down Main Street with pitchforks and torches. We were so angry,” Gleason said about their organizing efforts back in 2006.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We told them, we are not going away. We want this preserved.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Reenvisioning ‘Bunker City’ \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Twenty years later, all the peace and quiet that the Concord Neighborhood Alliance wanted is still there. Not a single permanent structure has been built on the former weapons base yet. What’s the holdup?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>First, the city went through a seven-year process of engaging residents to come up with a master vision for the site. It culminated in \u003ca href=\"https://concordreuseproject.org/152/The-Area-Plan\">the 2012 area plan\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081257\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081257\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Josh Roden, a developer at Brookfield Residential working with the city of Concord to redevelop the Concord Naval Weapons Station, stands on a hillside overlooking the former naval base in Concord on April 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>All the while, there was a lot of cleanup and bureaucracy. The Navy had to remove \u003ca href=\"https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/SiteProfiles/index.cfm?fuseaction=second.cleanup&id=0902778\">arsenic and lead\u003c/a> from the soil and groundwater. The city had contracts with two developers before the current one. One \u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/labor-dispute-stalls-redevelopment-of-concord-naval-weapons-station/2210946/\">jumped ship,\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/deal-for-planned-development-at-concord-naval-weapons-station-collapses/\">one was booted\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the slow and deliberate pace the Navy and city have been on is not necessarily a bad thing, the current master developer said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Concord did a really good job of engaging the entire community,” said Josh Roden, president of Brookfield Northern California, which is \u003ca href=\"https://concordreuseproject.org/\">managing the redevelopment of the site\u003c/a>. “It’s a lot of work and effort, and it can be a little painful to manage.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Roden’s team is now tasked with implementing the specifics of the 2012 general plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s like building a small city,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Concord residents expect 12,000 residential units, which is roughly equivalent to the nearby town of Pleasant Hill, home to 34,000 people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Six million square feet are earmarked for retail, office and institutional space, and businesses such as hotels and restaurants, which will be most dense near the North Concord Bart Station. That’s more space than the footprint of Disneyland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There will be a sports complex and city park, stretching over 175 acres, and a higher education campus, like a college or technical school, along with elementary and middle schools. Fire and police stations will be built, as well as a food bank, and a pedestrian path along Mount Diablo Creek.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The plans are grand and exciting, but Concord residents will have to wait a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Roden said construction won’t break ground until 2030, and it will probably be “a 40-year build out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first phase includes housing near the North Concord BART station. Residents can expect more electric vehicle infrastructure, denser housing, and retail space blended with other leisure activities. How quickly it all moves along depends on the health of the economy, Roden said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081248\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081248\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Kathy Gleason’s home abuts the former Concord Naval Weapons Station in Concord on April 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Open space advocates like Kathy Gleason have already had a notable win. Half of the inland naval base — roughly 2,500 acres, has already been handed over to East Bay Regional Parks. \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/parks/thurgood-marshall-regional-park-home-port-chicago-50\">Thurgood Marshall Regional Park\u003c/a> is not yet open to the public, but when it does, visitors will be able to see the ammunition bunkers during historic tours.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We put years of our time into preserving what we can out here,” said Gleason, who also said she now understands that housing is a critical need in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Let’s make it as good as we can for future generations. And that’s the best we can do,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Suzanne Howard of Walnut Creek said she’s glad the Concord housing development will be near open space. She just hopes she’s alive when it all comes to fruition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s kind of scary how long it takes,” she said. But sometimes, “good things take time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey everyone! This is Bay Curious — the podcast that answers listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We recently got a question from a woman named Suzanne Howard. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She bought a house with her husband in Walnut Creek two years ago and she loves the place. How it feels safe and walkable to lots of shops. They bike everywhere. But one thing gives Suzanne a little buyer’s remorse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s right next to the 12 lane freeway. It’s super noisy, super thankful to have a house, but like quality of life noise pollution is a little much.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One day, Suzanne was feeling curious, and she started studying online maps, looking for open space in the East Bay. Where could more housing be built near her that might offer a little more peace and quiet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I found as I zoomed out, I saw east of Concord High School green open fields, gorgeous greenery hillside, some streets. And then little mounds, little grass mounds which, all in a grid pattern. What is this thing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Five thousand acres of open space with seemingly nothing going on. It wasn’t a park or anything. Just a big open area and those mounds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Could we build housing there? It’s prime real estate, why not? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. On today’s episode, we asked KQED’s Pauline Bartolone to scout out that area behind Concord High School. What are those grassy mounds in a grid pattern? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll give you a hint, it’s not a cemetery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ok. Is it open to the public? Can I go on a walk there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, right now, no. In a few years, probably.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What about Suzanne’s question, could housing be built there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, actually that’s in the works, we’ll get to more on that in a minute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ok, so tell me what you saw when you went out there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well I found someone who lives right near Concord High School, and those 5,000 acres of rolling hills are right behind her house. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My name is Kathy Gleason. We’re in Concord in my backyard, and looking at the Concord Naval Weapons Station. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Concord Naval Weapons Station. That property our listener Suzanne saw on the map, belongs to the Navy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">During World War 2, the navy stored tons of explosives here in huge concrete bunkers camouflaged with earth to look like grassy hills. Those are the mounds Suzanne saw on the map. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Go ahead. You can see the bunkers back there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over a hundred concrete weapons storage units here supplied bullets, missiles, bombs, anything the military needed for combat all the way up to the first Gulf War. Railroads connected this inland base to the Bay where artillery was loaded onto warships. When Kathy moved here in 1974, it was active.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In years gone by, we could hear trains moving at night out there. So they were moving munitions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kathy says she loves living next to a weapons base… because.. it’s quiet. Those ammo bunker mounds…. they’re empty now… and they blend into the lush green landscape… And there aren’t many other buildings there. She says it’s always been pretty calm, part of what drew her here in the first place 50 years ago. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Who wouldn’t like this in their backyard? You can hear that plane, but other than that it’s pretty quiet. When we first moved in, there were a lot of sheep out there. There’s still a lot of cattle out there grazing. So we used to see tule elk roaming around, now we see turkeys, we hear coyotes, we’ll see deer every now and then. It’s pretty peaceful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then Concord residents got news that could change everything. The weapons station would close in 2005. This huge swath of open land, roughly the size of San Francisco International airport, was going to change hands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We all kind of panicked. All the neighbors along here kind of panic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They worried a developer would swoop in and build a metropolis, a big noisy construction project.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We wanted our peace and quiet, and we were concerned about what’s in the soil. What’s going to happen with that when they develop? And the noise and everything that would go with developing a project this big, this is huge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Concord Naval Weapons Station closure was part of a federal project to cut military costs. It was called BRAC, the Base Realignment and Closure process. Hundreds of military sites shuttered nationwide. Immediately, the city of Concord started making plans for redevelopment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were so angry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Locally, Kathy quickly became a key organizer among neighbors pushing to keep the weapons station land untouched and open.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We quickly got a group together, went down the City Hall. Surprised the hell out of the city council members because we were like the old town people that went down Main Street with pitchforks and torches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For years, they tabled at farmers markets and knocked on people’s doors to educate Concord residents about the potential for development. And of course, they were squeaky wheels at city council meetings and planning commission hearings.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We told them, we are not going away, you know, listen to us, we’re not going away, we want this preserved.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they got their wish, in part. Half of the area behind Kathy’s house has been handed over to east bay regional parks. The old ammo bunkers there will become part of historic tours. And when it opens, locals can hike, camp or have a picnic next to protected wildlife areas. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We put years of our time into preserving what we can out here. We hope that it works. We slowed down after we got the park. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Coming up, we’ll learn how the other half of the land will be used. That’s after this quick break. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> KQED’s Pauline Bartolone takes us back to the Concord mounds, to find out what’s planned here. But this time, from a different vantage point. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kathy and her neighbors were up in arms about plans to build on the military site next to their homes. That was two decades ago, and all that peace and quiet? It’s still there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We are looking out over the valley or floor area of old bunker city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Josh Roden is a private developer, and he took me onto the old Concord Naval Weapons station. From our vantage point you can see the former weapons storage clearly… dozens of massive trapezoids poking up from the soil. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re mostly concrete bunkers with earth over them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Josh heads up Brookfield Residential in Northern California, which is working with the city of Concord to redevelop the navy base based on a roadmap Concord residents like Kathy helped create. When it’s done, the site will have housing, businesses, schools and parks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Concord did a really good job of engaging the entire community, getting a whole bunch of feedback. It’s a lot of work and effort, and it can be a little painful to manage through that, because it’s a lot of opinions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But so far, it’s been a lot of discussion, 20 years worth. And not a single permanent structure has been built here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the most important parts is the first, being able to flush a toilet and turn a light on. So we really do have to go bring power. We have to bring potable water, we have to bring storm drains.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, what’s the hold up? Well, there’s been a lot of clean up and bureaucracy. The Navy had to remove \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/SiteProfiles/index.cfm?fuseaction=second.cleanup&id=0902778\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">arsenic and lead\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> from the soil and groundwater. The city had contracts with two developers before the current one. One jumped ship and one was booted. And before all that, Concord spent seven years coming up with a master plan with residents. A vision for the site.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they ended up coming up with what we think is a very reasonable and good area plan, but it did take some time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And their plans are grand… just down the hill from where Josh and I are standing, will be some of the 12,000 residential homes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The number of units, the size of it is similar to Pleasant Hill. So for context the population that it would generate. It’s similar to Pleasant Hill.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’d be housing for something like 34-thousand people. Also in the plan are retail and office space, most dense near the North Concord Bart Station.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hotels and maybe more restaurants and a place people go leisure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there’s the outline for a sports park – stretching over 175 acres – and a higher education campus, like a college or technical school.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We are also coordinating some of the elementary school, middle school potentially to be in that vicinity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fire stations, police stations. A food bank and a pedestrian path along Mt Diablo creek, All the amenities of a town.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s like building a small city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That may sound exciting but it will all take a looong time. Like decades. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Currently, it’s planned out for probably a 40 year build out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They won’t even break ground until 2031, and there’s still some bureaucratic hurdles. Ultimately, Josh says how quickly it gets built depends on the health of the economy, Housing is what pays off for the developer, so the the first to go up will be homes close to the North Concord BART station. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite her early reservations about building on the site, Kathy has had a bit of a change of heart about new housing. She says the Bay Area needs it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were not as panicked as we were. I think I do understand. Let’s do it. Let’s make it as good as we can for future generations. And that’s the best we can do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a long time. Geez. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I took all this back to Suzanne Howard, our question asker. She likes that the Concord development will have open space near it, not a 12 lane highway like the one next to her house. As far as taking more than half a century to finish the new housing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s kind of scary how long it takes. But hopefully, you know, assuming positive intent and the cleanup hopefully is being very thorough and good things take time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She just hopes she’s alive to see it come to fruition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was KQED’s Pauline Bartolone.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks to our question asker this week, Suzanne. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did you know that we send a little thank you gift to each question asker? Just one more reason to take a few minutes and send your burning question our way! Ask at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, or shoot us an email at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is our last Monday episode during our experimental period of dropping two episodes a week. We’ve learned so much — and had a lot of fun answering twice as many of your questions these past few months. We always planned this to be a limited-term trial — so we’re back to our once a week publishing schedule next week. If you have thoughts or feedback for us as we take stock and move forward, email us at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by me, Olivia Allen Price, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and you! Yes you are a producer on this show if you are a member of KQED. Your financial support makes everything possible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Deep gratitude to all the KQED members out there, and if you aren’t one yet, join us! Give at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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}
},
"city-arts": {
"id": "city-arts",
"title": "City Arts & Lectures",
"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/cityartsandlecture-300x300.jpg",
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"airtime": "SUN 1pm-2pm, TUE 10pm, WED 1am",
"meta": {
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
}
},
"closealltabs": {
"id": "closealltabs",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/closealltabs",
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"order": 1
},
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"id": "code-switch-life-kit",
"title": "Code Switch / Life Kit",
"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"meta": {
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"meta": {
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
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"subscribe": {
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
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},
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"id": "fresh-air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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},
"hidden-brain": {
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"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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},
"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
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},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/3zxy",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"order": 15
},
"link": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/2p3Fifq96nw9BPcmFdIq0o?si=39209f7b25774f38",
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
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"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
"meta": {
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},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "On Our Watch from NPR and KQED",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1567098962",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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}
},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/otm",
"meta": {
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"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
"title": "PBS NewsHour",
"info": "Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/",
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"source": "pbs"
},
"link": "/radio/program/pbs-newshour",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/",
"rss": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/feeds/rss/podcasts/show"
}
},
"perspectives": {
"id": "perspectives",
"title": "Perspectives",
"tagline": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991",
"info": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Perspectives_Tile_Final.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Perspectives",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/perspectives/",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 14
},
"link": "/perspectives",
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