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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This article first published April 18, 2024. We are republishing in honor of the 120th anniversary of the 1906 Earthquake and Fire.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On April 18, 1906, many San Franciscans awoke at 5:13 a.m. to feel the earth shaking. An estimated 7.9 earthquake rocked the San Andreas fault, causing the immediate collapse of many buildings in San Francisco’s downtown. That, in turn, began a fire that quickly spread throughout the city. It was a momentous day in the history of the Bay Area. Crucial records were lost in the blaze, and the event marked a dividing line in the historical record — pre- and post-quake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every year, San Franciscans gather early in the morning at the corner of Kearny and Market streets to commemorate the event. People dress up in period costumes, trying to embody the historic moment. City leaders use the anniversary as an opportunity to remind citizens about earthquake preparedness and to celebrate first responders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Allison Pennell grew up in Berkeley and learned all the lore around the 1906 earthquake, so she was surprised to see something \u003cem>new\u003c/em> while perusing a catalog from the Legion of Honor Museum. Staring back at her from the page was a photo of a group of African Americans dressed in turn-of-the-century clothing, watching from atop a hill as San Francisco burned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983185\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 465px\">\u003ca href=\"https://oac.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/hb087004q7/?brand=oac4\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983185\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Black-San-Franciscans-Clay-St-cropped.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of early San Francisco. A small group of African Americans turn to the camera as huge smoke plumes rise behind them.\" width=\"465\" height=\"649\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Black-San-Franciscans-Clay-St-cropped.jpg 465w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Black-San-Franciscans-Clay-St-cropped-160x223.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 465px) 100vw, 465px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A group of African American San Franciscans watch the fire advance from Clay Street in 1906. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://oac.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/hb087004q7/?brand=oac4\">UC Berkeley Bancroft Library\u003c/a>/Photographer: Arnold Genthe )\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I just started to think about that photograph and what would have happened after the earthquake,” Allison said. “I know many people came over to the East Bay to set up an emergency situation over here. And so I thought, how did that work? Because you couldn’t probably, as a nonwhite person, go to the Claremont Hotel and say, ‘I’d like a suite,’ at that time. The discrimination was deep.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She knew that Black people had been settling in San Francisco since before the Gold Rush but had never before given much thought to how the discrimination common at the time might have affected the community’s ability to recover, access aid and rebuild after the 1906 quake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m interested to know what Black San Franciscans did to survive after the 1906 San Francisco earthquake and how they reestablished themselves either in the East Bay or back in San Francisco,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Before the Quake\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983203\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A133093?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=e7446cdca8edd82a35cf&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=46&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=9\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983203\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Devestation-featured.jpg\" alt=\"Sepia toned photo of a nearly flattened San Francisco from 1906.\" width=\"600\" height=\"454\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Devestation-featured.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Devestation-featured-160x121.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">View looking down California Street after the earthquake and fire of 1906. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>By 1906, many Black San Franciscans had already begun moving to the East Bay in search of more space, fewer restrictions and less expensive housing. Those who stayed in San Francisco lived in neighborhoods all over the city. Like other groups that immigrated to California during the Gold Rush, early Black settlers here were mostly single men who tended to live in hotels downtown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And while societal norms were a bit looser in the fledgling city, there was still plenty of racism, especially when it came to employment. The best, most skilled jobs were reserved for white people, while Black residents struggled to find the most menial work. Accounts from the time describe jobs like errand runners, elevator operators, valets and hotel workers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983189\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A217449?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=8b7fbf8474525807d377&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=1&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=1#birds_eye_container\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983189\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/palace-hotel-1906.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of two grand buildings collapsing.\" width=\"600\" height=\"482\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/palace-hotel-1906.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/palace-hotel-1906-160x129.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Grand Hotel (left) and Palace Hotel on fire as carriages go by. Some of the better jobs Black San Franciscans could find at the turn of the 20th century were in hotels like these, where they could earn tips. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/The San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>When the Trans-Pacific Railroad was built and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11910890/how-oaklands-16th-street-train-station-helped-build-west-oakland-and-the-modern-civil-rights-movement\">Southern Pacific Railroad opened a terminus in Oakland,\u003c/a> more jobs for Black people became available working on the trains and in the station. That was another reason many families chose to relocate to Oakland. A community had started to thrive in West Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Life Immediately After\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The 1906 earthquake and fire were catastrophic for all San Franciscans. And, as often happens in a crisis, people pulled together in the aftermath to help one another and to rebuild the city. It’s estimated that 80% of San Francisco was destroyed in the fire, and 200,000 people — rich and poor alike — were made homeless overnight. People of all backgrounds waited in long lines for basic supplies and sustenance, which added to the equalizing effect immediately after the earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983192\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A133547?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=6e0cba7e67868ea50c84&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=43&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=0\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983192\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/food-lines.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of weary people waiting in line with empty containers.\" width=\"600\" height=\"448\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/food-lines.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/food-lines-160x119.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">After the 1906 earthquake, San Franciscans of all types had to wait in lines for basic necessities. \u003ccite>(San Francisco HIstory Center/The San Francisco Public LIbrary)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Artist-in-residence at the San Francisco Public Library, tanea lunsford lynx, discovered \u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A48483\">a trove of oral histories from African Americans at the turn of the 20th century\u003c/a> and a few photos depicting Black San Franciscans during the earthquake and fire. tanea is a fourth-generation San Franciscan, so their roots go deep here, but they’d never seen or heard anything like this before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So even though my family has a deep history here, and even though we knew we were here, there hadn’t been photo proof that I’d seen,” they said. “And there certainly hadn’t been stories in our own voices about the experience of being here in 1906 and prior to that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>tanea was inspired to create an exhibit that looks at how the oral history of one man, Aurelious Alberga, speaks to San Francisco’s present moment. Her poetry and interpretation are up on \u003ca href=\"https://www.tanealunsfordlynx.com/wewerehere\">a website she created called “We Were Here.”\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Below are excerpts of first-person accounts from Black San Franciscans who lived through the 1906 earthquake and fire. Their oral histories are archived at the San Francisco Public Library’s History Center in a collection entitled “\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/qqXrCJ6PLruKXKK8FVA8XA?domain=oac.cdlib.org\">Afro-Americans in San Francisco prior to World War II Oral history project records\u003c/a>.” The histories were recorded in 1978 by Dr. Albert Broussard, author of \u003cem>Black San Francisco: The Struggle for Racial Equality in the West, 1900–1954\u003c/em>. The work was co-sponsored by the \u003ca href=\"http://www.sfaahcs.org/\">San Francisco African-American Historical and Cultural Society\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983193\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1170px\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.tanealunsfordlynx.com/wewerehere\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983193\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white portrait of a young black man.\" width=\"1170\" height=\"1186\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious.jpg 1170w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious-800x811.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious-1020x1034.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious-160x162.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1170px) 100vw, 1170px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A young Aurelious Alberga (1884–1988)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Aurelious Alberga was born in San Francisco in 1884. He was a young man when the earthquake hit, renting a room in a hotel at the corner of Commercial and Kearny streets. His father rented a separate room on the floor above him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“The Quake loosened one side of the building and it collapsed. Outside the building were big windows, which years ago had iron shutters that pulled in and closed over a little balcony. When the bricks fell down, they forced the shutters closed. The doors in those days used to open out, and the door to my room was jammed shut — I couldn’t open it, you see. So I made enough noise and yelled out for my father. And he came down the best way he could and pulled away the rocks from the hallways to make the door wide enough so I could come out.” — Aurelious Alberga\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983195\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A217420?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=d274b845e2f43463a2a6&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=2&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=10\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983195\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/buildings-fall-down.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of nearly flattened buildings, with people walking by on the street.\" width=\"600\" height=\"413\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/buildings-fall-down.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/buildings-fall-down-160x110.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People walk down the street, stopping to look at buildings that have been nearly flattened in the 1906 earthquake. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“In the meantime, the city had started on fire. The water mains had broken, and they had no water, and no hoses long enough to draw water from the Bay. There’s nothing that could stop it. It just went ahead.” — Aurelious Alberga\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983197\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A209339?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=168622d42efe2632415f&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=4&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=19\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983197\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/dramatic-fire-1906.jpg\" alt=\"Dramatic black and white photo of a fierce fire burning behind the remains of a building.\" width=\"600\" height=\"435\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/dramatic-fire-1906.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/dramatic-fire-1906-160x116.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Buildings burning on Market Street after the 1906 earthquake. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon was a little girl when the earthquake hit. Her family lived in a two-story flat on Jones Street at Broadway. She remembers that the week the quake hit was Easter vacation from school, so she and her mother and siblings had taken the ferry across the Bay to stay with her grandparents in Oakland for the week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“My father came over on the last boat before the earthquake hit, to my grandmother’s… I was so sure it was my fault because I didn’t kneel that night before I said prayers. I got into bed and then said my prayers because it was so cold. But I didn’t tell anyone that it was my fault the earthquake came.” —Elizabeth Fisher Gordon\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>When the aftershocks subsided, Elizabeth’s father wanted to go back to San Francisco to check on their house, but authorities were not letting people on the ferries back to the city. He had to get special permission to return to the devastated city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“And when he went over, he found out there was a whole lot of damage. But he was able to get a suitcase and put some things in it, never dreaming the fire would reach there, you know. And some of the things he brought were so insignificant my mother thought. I’ll never forget her repeating, “he brought \u003ci>that\u003c/i> book.” — Elizabeth Fisher Gordon\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>Elizabeth’s family stayed with her grandparents for several months after the earthquake until her father bought a plot of land in the Mission and built them a new house. She remembers many people in the Black community relying on friends and family for help during this time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983198\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A217433?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=8b7fbf8474525807d377&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=1&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=17\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983198\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/cooking-street.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of of a woman cooking on a cast iron stove in the street.\" width=\"600\" height=\"428\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/cooking-street.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/cooking-street-160x114.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People cooked in the streets or in their backyards after the quake because chimneys had fallen down, and it wasn’t safe to cook inside. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Alfred Butler was a teenager living in Oakland when the quake struck. His father worked on the railroad and had more access to goods than most people in the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“He brought a lot of food out from Chicago to feed these people, White people all around the neighborhood. And the people all knew the Butlers. We had to eat in the backyard; we built a stove out of bricks to cook the meals on, because they wouldn’t allow you to cook in the house. The Earthquake had knocked all the chimneys down, so we had to eat in the backyard, fry and cook as best we could. People were thankful for that food too.” — Alfred Butler\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983199\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A132890?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=f31fecf33ee6f0edcd0d&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=5&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=14\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983199\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/refugee-camp-GGP.jpg\" alt=\"Rows of white tent set up in Golden Gate Park to house refugees from the 1906 earthquake.\" width=\"600\" height=\"345\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/refugee-camp-GGP.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/refugee-camp-GGP-160x92.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Refugee camps like this one in Golden Gate Park were set up in parks throughout San Francisco to house the nearly 200,000 people who had become homeless overnight. The military managed the camps. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Butler visited San Francisco right after the earthquake and described it as mostly rubble. All the tall buildings had fallen down. But he said people were already cleaning up, and within a year, they’d started to rebuild. Many Black San Franciscans moved to the Western Addition after the earthquake, including his brother.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983201\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A134029?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=d11fd6bd47c32fd8a6e1&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=8&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=17\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983201\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/rebuilding.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of two men shoveling debris in front of burned out buildings.\" width=\"600\" height=\"486\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/rebuilding.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/rebuilding-160x130.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">It is said that the bricks weren’t even cool before San Franciscans started rebuilding their city. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/The San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“My brother, right after the earthquake, he rented a place on Post near Fillmore. He got a place. He was just lucky. After the Earthquake, everybody moved on Fillmore Street. Businesses moved down Fillmore Street. All the business on Fillmore Street started booming. That’s where all the life was.” — Albert Butler\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>By 1915, just nine years after the devastating quake, San Francisco had largely been rebuilt. City leaders hosted the Panama-Pacific International Exposition to show the world it had recovered. While many people left San Francisco immediately after the quake, not too long after the 1915 World’s Fair, World War I began. A wave of new migrants came to the Bay Area then and again during World War II. The Black community in the Bay Area continued to grow in the East Bay, especially as ferry service to San Francisco improved so people could easily commute to the city for work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB0eK5KO8k8\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Every year on April 18th… at 5:13 in the morning…. San Franciscans gather at the corner of Market and Kearny Streets to remember.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>Once again, you crazy folks have come together at this ungodly hour to remember and honor the memories of those hearty San Franciscans who survived being tossed from their beds 117 years ago this morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>People come dressed up in period costumes…trying to inhabit the moment in 1906 when an earthquake with an estimated magnitude of 7.9 brought devastation to the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>Wednesday, April 18th, 1906 5:12 a.m. A great foreshock is felt throughout the San Francisco Bay area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>San Franciscans startled awake …only to see their city burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>Fires rage and spread throughout the city. They are not stopped until 74 hours later. Many of San Francisco’s finest buildings collapse under the firestorms. Firefighters begin dynamiting buildings to create firebreaks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>But the fire kept leaping over the lines, traveling further west.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>The Great Fire reaches Van Ness Avenue, which is 125ft wide, facing the decision to blow his city to pieces or watch it burn, Mayor Schmitz finally agrees to let the army create a massive firebreak in the hopes that it can stop the raging inferno. Friday, April 20th, 1906 5 a.m. The fire break at Venice finally holds and the westward progression of the inferno was halted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> It took more than three days to fully put the fire out. And then San Franciscans took stock. Nearly 80-percent of the city had burned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>So if we can just have a moment of silence for those who died and those who helped with the city after the earthquake. (Silence) Let’s hear those sirens go. Here we are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> The Great Earthquake and fire of 1906 were devastating to everyone living in San Francisco at the time, including its several thousand Black residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Allison Pennell started wondering about how this community fared after the earthquake when she saw an old photo in a museum booklet. It showed a group of Black San Franciscans standing at the top of Clay Street, watching the fire burn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Allison Pennell: \u003c/b>And I just started to think about that photograph and what would have happened after the earthquake. I know many people came over to the East Bay, and they simply got into boats and got over here, to try to set up an emergency situation over here. And so I thought, how did that work? Because, you couldn’t just probably as a nonwhite person go to the Claremont Hotel and say, I’d like a suite. At that time, the discrimination was deep.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>She wanted to know more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Allison Pennell: \u003c/b>I’m interested to know what Black San Franciscans did to survive after the 1906 San Francisco earthquake and how they re-established themselves either in the East Bay or back in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: Stories and photos of the devastation wrought by the 1906 earthquake and fire are easy to find around San Francisco. But it’s less common to see or hear explicit references to how the Black community fared after the quake. \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today on Bay Curious – just a few days shy of the 120th anniversary of the earthquake and fire – we’ll hear some first person accounts from those who survived it. This story first aired on our show in 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of elevators at the library\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> You can find all kinds of cool stuff at the public library.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>I was thinking like, where do where does the ephemera live? Where do the things live that we can’t touch? What are the less visited things of the library?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>tanea lunsford lynx was recently an artist in residence at the San Francisco Public Library,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>And then I found that there was an oral history project that had over 25, recorded oral histories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>She was \u003ci>transfixed\u003c/i> by the voices of Black Americans describing life in San Francisco at the turn of the 20th century.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: yea, we were here.\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> Now, tanea and I are standing in front of a display case on the third floor of the main branch …busy library life bustling around us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>I wanted folks to kind of happen upon it outside of the elevator. So when folks kind of get out there, struck by the photos that many of us have never seen. Of the 1906 earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/b>Yeah. Some people have seen some of the photos, like of the fire and stuff like that. What’s different about these ones?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>These photos are different because they’re featuring black American folks who were here in San Francisco at the time of the 1906 earthquake. So you not only see the plume of the fires, the smoke in the back of the photos, but you also see, black San Franciscans at the forefront of the photos who are, like, dressed very beautifully.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>My name is tanea lunsford lynx. I’m a writer and artist and educator. And fourth generation, like San Franciscan on both sides.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>For Tanea, these photos were a revelation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>So even though my family has a deep history here, and even though we knew we were here, there hadn’t been like photo proof that I’d seen a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>As part of her residency at the library she began digging into the archives kept here and stumbled across an oral history recorded in 1978… of a man named Aurelius Alberga. A black man and a survivor of the 1906 earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>And there certainly hadn’t been stories in our own voices about the experience of being here in 1906 and prior to that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>I felt a kinship pretty quickly. Because something about. Alberga’s tone reminded me of my grandfather’s voice and something about the quality of the audio is…Very appropriate for the time that it was recorded. And so you can, like hear the hum of the machine. You can hear like background noises, like I was I was automatically seated in someone’s house, like listening to them tell their stories. And it was that kinship, that closeness, that sense of intimacy that I was looking for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga: \u003c/b>October 22, 1884.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Albert Broussard: \u003c/b>Where were you born?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga: \u003c/b>San Francisco\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Albert Broussard: \u003c/b>What about you parents. Where were they born?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga: \u003c/b>My father was born in Kingston, Jamaica. May mother was born in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>He was very chill, for lack of a better word, about surviving that earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> Historian Dr. Albert Broussard recorded this oral history when Alberga was in his 90s. On the day of the Great Earthquake, Alberga was in his early 20s, sleeping in a room he rented at the corner of Commercial and Kearny Streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>Aurelius Alberga is asleep in his apartment, which most likely was an SRO, single room occupancy. And he lived there, and his father lived in the apartment above him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> My father was living there too. He had a room right upstairs directly over me. The Quake loosened and one side of the building collapsed. The doors in those days used to open out, and the door to my room was jammed shut — I couldn’t open it, you see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> He, like, yells for his father to know where he is, and his father comes down and helps him get out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> After escaping his small room, Alberga and his father go their separate ways. Alberga is worried about the man he works for who is blind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> Alberga’s job at that time is being a chauffeur for a man he calls old Metzger, who’s a man that he works for, who’s, like, wealthy, who’s a blind man. And, he develops this relationship with kind of like, caring for him in different ways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> He lived on O’Farrell Street between Stockton and Powell. The whole front side of the hotel had fallen out into the streets and left exposed the rooms on that end. He was right there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> And so Alberga is like, oh my gosh, I hope he’s okay. And he gets up to Metzger’s apartment. And this man is sleeping.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> He slept through it all, which was a blessing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> After heroically saving Metzger’s life, he takes the old man to his mother’s house. Old Metzger is worried about savings he’s got stored in a safe downtown so he sends Alberga to retrieve the money. That errand takes Alberga all over the town and he watches as the city is destroyed. He recalls how the water mains were broken and firefighters struggled to contain the blaze.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> They had no water, and no hoses long enough to draw water from the Bay. There’s nothing that could stop it. It just went ahead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> It blew my mind that he could recall with precision the exact intersections of where things happened in San Francisco, particularly as a man of, like, more than 90 years old. Because I’m also aware of, like, yes, this was a trauma that he survived. And he was able to recall with such clarity where these things happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Alberga had lost everything in the earthquake and fire, his home, all his possessions. He bounced around the city, staying with friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> One of the things he did say was that folks across like, race and ethnicity were really welcoming to each other as far as, like, inviting folks to literally stay in their homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> I don’t think there were any people as friendly as the ole San Franciscans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> No one as friendly as ‘ole San Franciscans. People were dragging their trunks down the road, nowhere to sleep…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> People were dragging their trunks along the street and someone would come along and help them. They’d take someone in their house they had never seen before in your life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Folks opened up their homes to people they’d never seen before in their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>So that mutual aid and that care was something that Alberga named as something that was distinctly San Franciscan at the time, that it was a very friendly place at that time, particularly after this moment of crisis. And so that really stood out to me, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia: We’re going to pause for a quick break, but when we return … more stories from 1906. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sponsor message\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia: When the 1906 earthquake and fire hit San Francisco, thousands of children were affected. Forming Vivid memories that would stay with them for most of their lives. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon was just a little girl of nine-years-old when the earthquake struck. Her family lived in a flat in downtown San Francisco. But by 1906 many Black San Franciscans had relocated to the East Bay in search of more space and less expensive housing. Her grandmother lived in Oakland and Elizabeth had gone to stay with her for the Easter holidays, just before the quake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon: \u003c/b>And my mother came over later in the week and brought the rest of the children. My father came over on the last boat before the earthquake hit, to my grandmother’s. I was so sure it was my fault because I didn’t kneel that night before I said prayers. I got into bed and then said my prayers because it was so cold. But I didn’t tell anyone that it was my fault the earthquake came.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Elizabeth remembers all the chimneys in Oakland falling down during the earthquake. As morning dawned, chaos reigned and authorities would not let Elizabeth’s father return to San Francisco on the ferry. He had to get special permission to go check on their house.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon: \u003c/b>And when he went over, he found out there was a whole lot of damage. But he was able to get a suitcase and put some things in it, never dreaming the fire would reach there, you know. And some of the things he brought were so insignificant my mother thought. I’ll never forget her repeating, “he brought that book.” (chuckles).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Her father returned to Oakland where his family was — and their home on Jones street was consumed by the fire. Elizabeth says the family was lucky to be able to stay with her grandparents in Oakland until her father purchased a plot of land in the Mission to build them a new house. She says many Black San Franciscans tapped into networks of friends and family in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon: \u003c/b>The people from San Francisco came over here when their houses burned down and they took care of them over here. Red Cross, and they set up temporary housing and what have you for the people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Tent cities sprang up in parks around San Francisco…housing 200-thousand people who had become homeless overnight. People set up outdoor kitchens and cooked together. Tanea lunsford lynx documented Black San Franciscans among these scenes in her exhibit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>The first photo that we see is a photo of two young black people, children who are sitting in the grass and you see tents and you see a clothing line up behind them, and you see a little stove for cooking as well. And this is a campsite that was set up in Golden Gate Park, because folks had lost everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>A PBS documentary called The Great 1906 San Francisco Earthquake paints a desolate picture of life in the aftermath.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Great 1906 San Francisco Earthquake Narration: \u003c/b>Standing in bread lines, meat lines, soup lines, any kind of a line became the central activity of life. Everyone had to do it. Soldiers made sure nobody cheated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>And anybody not standing in line, was put to work rebuilding the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Great 1906 San Francisco Earthquake Narration: \u003c/b>It was said that in many places, the debris was not even allowed to cool, and bricks were pitched from lots when still as warm as muffins. Volunteers on the cleanup crews took up the refrain in the damnedest, finest ruins I’d rather be a brick than live anywhere else but San Francisco. The great cleanup had begun. Thousands of standing walls were torn down. An estimated 6.5 billion bricks were carted away or cleaned of mortar to be reused in new buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>People who lived through these times remember it as a swift recovery. Alfred Butler was a Black teenager living in Oakland at the time of the earthquake. He took a mule and cart all the way down to San Jose and around the Bay in order to see what had happened to San Francisco for himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He recalls seeing a lot of rubble, and the biggest buildings knocked down. But over the following months the recovery progressed quickly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alfred Butler: \u003c/b>They built it up right away. In a year’s time, things were pretty well cleaned up. And then they started to build.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>At the turn of the 20th century, Black San Franciscans lived in neighborhoods scattered throughout San Francisco, but many single men were concentrated in hotels downtown…like Aurelius Alberga who we heard from earlier. Alfred Butler says after the earthquake, the Western Addition became the hub of Black life. That’s where his brother moved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alfred Butler: \u003c/b>After the earthquake, everybody moved on Fillmore Street. All the businesses on Fillmore Street started booming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>San Franciscans came together after the quake and people from all walks of life helped one another in that moment of crises. But the oral histories of these Black Americans who survived it show that as the city rebuilt, it went back to the de facto racism that ruled it. Butler says good jobs were still reserved for white people, while Black people struggled to find menial ones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Albert Butler: \u003c/b>It was hard to get a job. Negroes, we had a tough time getting a job. A menial job like washing windows or running errands or something like that. Running an elevator or something like that. It was hard to get a job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music transition\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>For Tanea, the photos of San Franciscans living in tents, cooking outdoors, waiting in line for basic necessities are eerily similar to scenes on the streets of the city today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>When looking at these photos, I began to see the past, speaking to the future and the future, speaking to the past.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>And as a Black person, tanea sees echoes of \u003ci>her San Francisco\u003c/i> in the oral histories she combed through. A small Black community fighting to stay in a changing city. The devastation of displacement and loss. But also the love of this place and the tenacity to survive. It’s all too familiar. Her poem “We Were Here” is an ode to the Black community in San Francisco, which stretches from the Gold Rush to now. Here’s an excerpt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> We were here already, living fantastical lives, already saving the best for the present, already studying the contours of the city. The bay knew us. This ocean was salted with our knowing already. We knew the feeling of firm ground. Before the shaking. We knew stability. The ground knew the planting and rising of our feet like a dance. We were already sending for each other, extending a fishing hook south and pulling each other up with calloused hands. We were already spinning tales about this mass of fog. We were already making home here. \u003ci>(fades under)\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>That story was brought to us by Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> But of course, we were here, living in our signature ways. Of course, when the earth shifted, we went looking for who could be lost in the cracks. Of course it made for lore. Of course we were doing the fantastical feat like a dance. The earth cracked open and we kept time, an offering of our survival. We kept on living.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades out\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> tanea’s exhibit is no longer on display at the library, but you can see all the photos she used and \u003ca href=\"https://www.tanealunsfordlynx.com/wewerehere\">read her writing on the project’s website\u003c/a>. You can find a link in our show notes or on baycurious.org.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special thanks to the San Francisco History Center, part of the San Francisco Public Library for letting us use the oral histories in their archive. And to the San Francisco African-American Historical and Cultural Society who co-sponsored the original oral history project.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Our show is made by:\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Katrina Schwartz\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>Christopher Beale\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Katherine Monahan\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>and me, Olivia Allen Price. Additional support from:\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Jen Chien: \u003c/b>Jen Chien\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Springer: \u003c/b>Katie Springer\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maha Sanad: \u003c/b>Maha Sanad\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethan Toven-Lindsey:\u003c/b> Ethan Toven-Lindsey\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Crowd:\u003c/b> And the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll be back next week.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This article first published April 18, 2024. We are republishing in honor of the 120th anniversary of the 1906 Earthquake and Fire.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On April 18, 1906, many San Franciscans awoke at 5:13 a.m. to feel the earth shaking. An estimated 7.9 earthquake rocked the San Andreas fault, causing the immediate collapse of many buildings in San Francisco’s downtown. That, in turn, began a fire that quickly spread throughout the city. It was a momentous day in the history of the Bay Area. Crucial records were lost in the blaze, and the event marked a dividing line in the historical record — pre- and post-quake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every year, San Franciscans gather early in the morning at the corner of Kearny and Market streets to commemorate the event. People dress up in period costumes, trying to embody the historic moment. City leaders use the anniversary as an opportunity to remind citizens about earthquake preparedness and to celebrate first responders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Allison Pennell grew up in Berkeley and learned all the lore around the 1906 earthquake, so she was surprised to see something \u003cem>new\u003c/em> while perusing a catalog from the Legion of Honor Museum. Staring back at her from the page was a photo of a group of African Americans dressed in turn-of-the-century clothing, watching from atop a hill as San Francisco burned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983185\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 465px\">\u003ca href=\"https://oac.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/hb087004q7/?brand=oac4\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983185\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Black-San-Franciscans-Clay-St-cropped.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of early San Francisco. A small group of African Americans turn to the camera as huge smoke plumes rise behind them.\" width=\"465\" height=\"649\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Black-San-Franciscans-Clay-St-cropped.jpg 465w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Black-San-Franciscans-Clay-St-cropped-160x223.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 465px) 100vw, 465px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A group of African American San Franciscans watch the fire advance from Clay Street in 1906. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://oac.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/hb087004q7/?brand=oac4\">UC Berkeley Bancroft Library\u003c/a>/Photographer: Arnold Genthe )\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I just started to think about that photograph and what would have happened after the earthquake,” Allison said. “I know many people came over to the East Bay to set up an emergency situation over here. And so I thought, how did that work? Because you couldn’t probably, as a nonwhite person, go to the Claremont Hotel and say, ‘I’d like a suite,’ at that time. The discrimination was deep.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She knew that Black people had been settling in San Francisco since before the Gold Rush but had never before given much thought to how the discrimination common at the time might have affected the community’s ability to recover, access aid and rebuild after the 1906 quake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m interested to know what Black San Franciscans did to survive after the 1906 San Francisco earthquake and how they reestablished themselves either in the East Bay or back in San Francisco,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Before the Quake\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983203\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A133093?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=e7446cdca8edd82a35cf&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=46&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=9\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983203\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Devestation-featured.jpg\" alt=\"Sepia toned photo of a nearly flattened San Francisco from 1906.\" width=\"600\" height=\"454\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Devestation-featured.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Devestation-featured-160x121.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">View looking down California Street after the earthquake and fire of 1906. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>By 1906, many Black San Franciscans had already begun moving to the East Bay in search of more space, fewer restrictions and less expensive housing. Those who stayed in San Francisco lived in neighborhoods all over the city. Like other groups that immigrated to California during the Gold Rush, early Black settlers here were mostly single men who tended to live in hotels downtown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And while societal norms were a bit looser in the fledgling city, there was still plenty of racism, especially when it came to employment. The best, most skilled jobs were reserved for white people, while Black residents struggled to find the most menial work. Accounts from the time describe jobs like errand runners, elevator operators, valets and hotel workers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983189\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A217449?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=8b7fbf8474525807d377&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=1&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=1#birds_eye_container\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983189\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/palace-hotel-1906.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of two grand buildings collapsing.\" width=\"600\" height=\"482\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/palace-hotel-1906.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/palace-hotel-1906-160x129.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Grand Hotel (left) and Palace Hotel on fire as carriages go by. Some of the better jobs Black San Franciscans could find at the turn of the 20th century were in hotels like these, where they could earn tips. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/The San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>When the Trans-Pacific Railroad was built and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11910890/how-oaklands-16th-street-train-station-helped-build-west-oakland-and-the-modern-civil-rights-movement\">Southern Pacific Railroad opened a terminus in Oakland,\u003c/a> more jobs for Black people became available working on the trains and in the station. That was another reason many families chose to relocate to Oakland. A community had started to thrive in West Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Life Immediately After\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The 1906 earthquake and fire were catastrophic for all San Franciscans. And, as often happens in a crisis, people pulled together in the aftermath to help one another and to rebuild the city. It’s estimated that 80% of San Francisco was destroyed in the fire, and 200,000 people — rich and poor alike — were made homeless overnight. People of all backgrounds waited in long lines for basic supplies and sustenance, which added to the equalizing effect immediately after the earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983192\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A133547?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=6e0cba7e67868ea50c84&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=43&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=0\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983192\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/food-lines.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of weary people waiting in line with empty containers.\" width=\"600\" height=\"448\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/food-lines.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/food-lines-160x119.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">After the 1906 earthquake, San Franciscans of all types had to wait in lines for basic necessities. \u003ccite>(San Francisco HIstory Center/The San Francisco Public LIbrary)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Artist-in-residence at the San Francisco Public Library, tanea lunsford lynx, discovered \u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A48483\">a trove of oral histories from African Americans at the turn of the 20th century\u003c/a> and a few photos depicting Black San Franciscans during the earthquake and fire. tanea is a fourth-generation San Franciscan, so their roots go deep here, but they’d never seen or heard anything like this before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So even though my family has a deep history here, and even though we knew we were here, there hadn’t been photo proof that I’d seen,” they said. “And there certainly hadn’t been stories in our own voices about the experience of being here in 1906 and prior to that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>tanea was inspired to create an exhibit that looks at how the oral history of one man, Aurelious Alberga, speaks to San Francisco’s present moment. Her poetry and interpretation are up on \u003ca href=\"https://www.tanealunsfordlynx.com/wewerehere\">a website she created called “We Were Here.”\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Below are excerpts of first-person accounts from Black San Franciscans who lived through the 1906 earthquake and fire. Their oral histories are archived at the San Francisco Public Library’s History Center in a collection entitled “\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/qqXrCJ6PLruKXKK8FVA8XA?domain=oac.cdlib.org\">Afro-Americans in San Francisco prior to World War II Oral history project records\u003c/a>.” The histories were recorded in 1978 by Dr. Albert Broussard, author of \u003cem>Black San Francisco: The Struggle for Racial Equality in the West, 1900–1954\u003c/em>. The work was co-sponsored by the \u003ca href=\"http://www.sfaahcs.org/\">San Francisco African-American Historical and Cultural Society\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983193\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1170px\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.tanealunsfordlynx.com/wewerehere\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983193\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white portrait of a young black man.\" width=\"1170\" height=\"1186\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious.jpg 1170w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious-800x811.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious-1020x1034.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious-160x162.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1170px) 100vw, 1170px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A young Aurelious Alberga (1884–1988)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Aurelious Alberga was born in San Francisco in 1884. He was a young man when the earthquake hit, renting a room in a hotel at the corner of Commercial and Kearny streets. His father rented a separate room on the floor above him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“The Quake loosened one side of the building and it collapsed. Outside the building were big windows, which years ago had iron shutters that pulled in and closed over a little balcony. When the bricks fell down, they forced the shutters closed. The doors in those days used to open out, and the door to my room was jammed shut — I couldn’t open it, you see. So I made enough noise and yelled out for my father. And he came down the best way he could and pulled away the rocks from the hallways to make the door wide enough so I could come out.” — Aurelious Alberga\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983195\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A217420?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=d274b845e2f43463a2a6&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=2&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=10\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983195\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/buildings-fall-down.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of nearly flattened buildings, with people walking by on the street.\" width=\"600\" height=\"413\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/buildings-fall-down.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/buildings-fall-down-160x110.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People walk down the street, stopping to look at buildings that have been nearly flattened in the 1906 earthquake. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“In the meantime, the city had started on fire. The water mains had broken, and they had no water, and no hoses long enough to draw water from the Bay. There’s nothing that could stop it. It just went ahead.” — Aurelious Alberga\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983197\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A209339?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=168622d42efe2632415f&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=4&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=19\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983197\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/dramatic-fire-1906.jpg\" alt=\"Dramatic black and white photo of a fierce fire burning behind the remains of a building.\" width=\"600\" height=\"435\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/dramatic-fire-1906.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/dramatic-fire-1906-160x116.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Buildings burning on Market Street after the 1906 earthquake. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon was a little girl when the earthquake hit. Her family lived in a two-story flat on Jones Street at Broadway. She remembers that the week the quake hit was Easter vacation from school, so she and her mother and siblings had taken the ferry across the Bay to stay with her grandparents in Oakland for the week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“My father came over on the last boat before the earthquake hit, to my grandmother’s… I was so sure it was my fault because I didn’t kneel that night before I said prayers. I got into bed and then said my prayers because it was so cold. But I didn’t tell anyone that it was my fault the earthquake came.” —Elizabeth Fisher Gordon\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>When the aftershocks subsided, Elizabeth’s father wanted to go back to San Francisco to check on their house, but authorities were not letting people on the ferries back to the city. He had to get special permission to return to the devastated city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“And when he went over, he found out there was a whole lot of damage. But he was able to get a suitcase and put some things in it, never dreaming the fire would reach there, you know. And some of the things he brought were so insignificant my mother thought. I’ll never forget her repeating, “he brought \u003ci>that\u003c/i> book.” — Elizabeth Fisher Gordon\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>Elizabeth’s family stayed with her grandparents for several months after the earthquake until her father bought a plot of land in the Mission and built them a new house. She remembers many people in the Black community relying on friends and family for help during this time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983198\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A217433?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=8b7fbf8474525807d377&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=1&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=17\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983198\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/cooking-street.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of of a woman cooking on a cast iron stove in the street.\" width=\"600\" height=\"428\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/cooking-street.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/cooking-street-160x114.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People cooked in the streets or in their backyards after the quake because chimneys had fallen down, and it wasn’t safe to cook inside. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Alfred Butler was a teenager living in Oakland when the quake struck. His father worked on the railroad and had more access to goods than most people in the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“He brought a lot of food out from Chicago to feed these people, White people all around the neighborhood. And the people all knew the Butlers. We had to eat in the backyard; we built a stove out of bricks to cook the meals on, because they wouldn’t allow you to cook in the house. The Earthquake had knocked all the chimneys down, so we had to eat in the backyard, fry and cook as best we could. People were thankful for that food too.” — Alfred Butler\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983199\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A132890?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=f31fecf33ee6f0edcd0d&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=5&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=14\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983199\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/refugee-camp-GGP.jpg\" alt=\"Rows of white tent set up in Golden Gate Park to house refugees from the 1906 earthquake.\" width=\"600\" height=\"345\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/refugee-camp-GGP.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/refugee-camp-GGP-160x92.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Refugee camps like this one in Golden Gate Park were set up in parks throughout San Francisco to house the nearly 200,000 people who had become homeless overnight. The military managed the camps. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Butler visited San Francisco right after the earthquake and described it as mostly rubble. All the tall buildings had fallen down. But he said people were already cleaning up, and within a year, they’d started to rebuild. Many Black San Franciscans moved to the Western Addition after the earthquake, including his brother.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983201\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A134029?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=d11fd6bd47c32fd8a6e1&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=8&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=17\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983201\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/rebuilding.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of two men shoveling debris in front of burned out buildings.\" width=\"600\" height=\"486\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/rebuilding.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/rebuilding-160x130.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">It is said that the bricks weren’t even cool before San Franciscans started rebuilding their city. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/The San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“My brother, right after the earthquake, he rented a place on Post near Fillmore. He got a place. He was just lucky. After the Earthquake, everybody moved on Fillmore Street. Businesses moved down Fillmore Street. All the business on Fillmore Street started booming. That’s where all the life was.” — Albert Butler\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>By 1915, just nine years after the devastating quake, San Francisco had largely been rebuilt. City leaders hosted the Panama-Pacific International Exposition to show the world it had recovered. While many people left San Francisco immediately after the quake, not too long after the 1915 World’s Fair, World War I began. A wave of new migrants came to the Bay Area then and again during World War II. The Black community in the Bay Area continued to grow in the East Bay, especially as ferry service to San Francisco improved so people could easily commute to the city for work.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/aB0eK5KO8k8'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/aB0eK5KO8k8'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Every year on April 18th… at 5:13 in the morning…. San Franciscans gather at the corner of Market and Kearny Streets to remember.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>Once again, you crazy folks have come together at this ungodly hour to remember and honor the memories of those hearty San Franciscans who survived being tossed from their beds 117 years ago this morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>People come dressed up in period costumes…trying to inhabit the moment in 1906 when an earthquake with an estimated magnitude of 7.9 brought devastation to the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>Wednesday, April 18th, 1906 5:12 a.m. A great foreshock is felt throughout the San Francisco Bay area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>San Franciscans startled awake …only to see their city burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>Fires rage and spread throughout the city. They are not stopped until 74 hours later. Many of San Francisco’s finest buildings collapse under the firestorms. Firefighters begin dynamiting buildings to create firebreaks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>But the fire kept leaping over the lines, traveling further west.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>The Great Fire reaches Van Ness Avenue, which is 125ft wide, facing the decision to blow his city to pieces or watch it burn, Mayor Schmitz finally agrees to let the army create a massive firebreak in the hopes that it can stop the raging inferno. Friday, April 20th, 1906 5 a.m. The fire break at Venice finally holds and the westward progression of the inferno was halted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> It took more than three days to fully put the fire out. And then San Franciscans took stock. Nearly 80-percent of the city had burned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>So if we can just have a moment of silence for those who died and those who helped with the city after the earthquake. (Silence) Let’s hear those sirens go. Here we are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> The Great Earthquake and fire of 1906 were devastating to everyone living in San Francisco at the time, including its several thousand Black residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Allison Pennell started wondering about how this community fared after the earthquake when she saw an old photo in a museum booklet. It showed a group of Black San Franciscans standing at the top of Clay Street, watching the fire burn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Allison Pennell: \u003c/b>And I just started to think about that photograph and what would have happened after the earthquake. I know many people came over to the East Bay, and they simply got into boats and got over here, to try to set up an emergency situation over here. And so I thought, how did that work? Because, you couldn’t just probably as a nonwhite person go to the Claremont Hotel and say, I’d like a suite. At that time, the discrimination was deep.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>She wanted to know more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Allison Pennell: \u003c/b>I’m interested to know what Black San Franciscans did to survive after the 1906 San Francisco earthquake and how they re-established themselves either in the East Bay or back in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: Stories and photos of the devastation wrought by the 1906 earthquake and fire are easy to find around San Francisco. But it’s less common to see or hear explicit references to how the Black community fared after the quake. \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today on Bay Curious – just a few days shy of the 120th anniversary of the earthquake and fire – we’ll hear some first person accounts from those who survived it. This story first aired on our show in 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of elevators at the library\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> You can find all kinds of cool stuff at the public library.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>I was thinking like, where do where does the ephemera live? Where do the things live that we can’t touch? What are the less visited things of the library?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>tanea lunsford lynx was recently an artist in residence at the San Francisco Public Library,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>And then I found that there was an oral history project that had over 25, recorded oral histories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>She was \u003ci>transfixed\u003c/i> by the voices of Black Americans describing life in San Francisco at the turn of the 20th century.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: yea, we were here.\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> Now, tanea and I are standing in front of a display case on the third floor of the main branch …busy library life bustling around us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>I wanted folks to kind of happen upon it outside of the elevator. So when folks kind of get out there, struck by the photos that many of us have never seen. Of the 1906 earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/b>Yeah. Some people have seen some of the photos, like of the fire and stuff like that. What’s different about these ones?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>These photos are different because they’re featuring black American folks who were here in San Francisco at the time of the 1906 earthquake. So you not only see the plume of the fires, the smoke in the back of the photos, but you also see, black San Franciscans at the forefront of the photos who are, like, dressed very beautifully.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>My name is tanea lunsford lynx. I’m a writer and artist and educator. And fourth generation, like San Franciscan on both sides.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>For Tanea, these photos were a revelation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>So even though my family has a deep history here, and even though we knew we were here, there hadn’t been like photo proof that I’d seen a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>As part of her residency at the library she began digging into the archives kept here and stumbled across an oral history recorded in 1978… of a man named Aurelius Alberga. A black man and a survivor of the 1906 earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>And there certainly hadn’t been stories in our own voices about the experience of being here in 1906 and prior to that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>I felt a kinship pretty quickly. Because something about. Alberga’s tone reminded me of my grandfather’s voice and something about the quality of the audio is…Very appropriate for the time that it was recorded. And so you can, like hear the hum of the machine. You can hear like background noises, like I was I was automatically seated in someone’s house, like listening to them tell their stories. And it was that kinship, that closeness, that sense of intimacy that I was looking for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga: \u003c/b>October 22, 1884.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Albert Broussard: \u003c/b>Where were you born?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga: \u003c/b>San Francisco\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Albert Broussard: \u003c/b>What about you parents. Where were they born?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga: \u003c/b>My father was born in Kingston, Jamaica. May mother was born in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>He was very chill, for lack of a better word, about surviving that earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> Historian Dr. Albert Broussard recorded this oral history when Alberga was in his 90s. On the day of the Great Earthquake, Alberga was in his early 20s, sleeping in a room he rented at the corner of Commercial and Kearny Streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>Aurelius Alberga is asleep in his apartment, which most likely was an SRO, single room occupancy. And he lived there, and his father lived in the apartment above him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> My father was living there too. He had a room right upstairs directly over me. The Quake loosened and one side of the building collapsed. The doors in those days used to open out, and the door to my room was jammed shut — I couldn’t open it, you see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> He, like, yells for his father to know where he is, and his father comes down and helps him get out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> After escaping his small room, Alberga and his father go their separate ways. Alberga is worried about the man he works for who is blind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> Alberga’s job at that time is being a chauffeur for a man he calls old Metzger, who’s a man that he works for, who’s, like, wealthy, who’s a blind man. And, he develops this relationship with kind of like, caring for him in different ways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> He lived on O’Farrell Street between Stockton and Powell. The whole front side of the hotel had fallen out into the streets and left exposed the rooms on that end. He was right there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> And so Alberga is like, oh my gosh, I hope he’s okay. And he gets up to Metzger’s apartment. And this man is sleeping.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> He slept through it all, which was a blessing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> After heroically saving Metzger’s life, he takes the old man to his mother’s house. Old Metzger is worried about savings he’s got stored in a safe downtown so he sends Alberga to retrieve the money. That errand takes Alberga all over the town and he watches as the city is destroyed. He recalls how the water mains were broken and firefighters struggled to contain the blaze.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> They had no water, and no hoses long enough to draw water from the Bay. There’s nothing that could stop it. It just went ahead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> It blew my mind that he could recall with precision the exact intersections of where things happened in San Francisco, particularly as a man of, like, more than 90 years old. Because I’m also aware of, like, yes, this was a trauma that he survived. And he was able to recall with such clarity where these things happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Alberga had lost everything in the earthquake and fire, his home, all his possessions. He bounced around the city, staying with friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> One of the things he did say was that folks across like, race and ethnicity were really welcoming to each other as far as, like, inviting folks to literally stay in their homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> I don’t think there were any people as friendly as the ole San Franciscans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> No one as friendly as ‘ole San Franciscans. People were dragging their trunks down the road, nowhere to sleep…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> People were dragging their trunks along the street and someone would come along and help them. They’d take someone in their house they had never seen before in your life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Folks opened up their homes to people they’d never seen before in their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>So that mutual aid and that care was something that Alberga named as something that was distinctly San Franciscan at the time, that it was a very friendly place at that time, particularly after this moment of crisis. And so that really stood out to me, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia: We’re going to pause for a quick break, but when we return … more stories from 1906. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sponsor message\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia: When the 1906 earthquake and fire hit San Francisco, thousands of children were affected. Forming Vivid memories that would stay with them for most of their lives. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon was just a little girl of nine-years-old when the earthquake struck. Her family lived in a flat in downtown San Francisco. But by 1906 many Black San Franciscans had relocated to the East Bay in search of more space and less expensive housing. Her grandmother lived in Oakland and Elizabeth had gone to stay with her for the Easter holidays, just before the quake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon: \u003c/b>And my mother came over later in the week and brought the rest of the children. My father came over on the last boat before the earthquake hit, to my grandmother’s. I was so sure it was my fault because I didn’t kneel that night before I said prayers. I got into bed and then said my prayers because it was so cold. But I didn’t tell anyone that it was my fault the earthquake came.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Elizabeth remembers all the chimneys in Oakland falling down during the earthquake. As morning dawned, chaos reigned and authorities would not let Elizabeth’s father return to San Francisco on the ferry. He had to get special permission to go check on their house.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon: \u003c/b>And when he went over, he found out there was a whole lot of damage. But he was able to get a suitcase and put some things in it, never dreaming the fire would reach there, you know. And some of the things he brought were so insignificant my mother thought. I’ll never forget her repeating, “he brought that book.” (chuckles).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Her father returned to Oakland where his family was — and their home on Jones street was consumed by the fire. Elizabeth says the family was lucky to be able to stay with her grandparents in Oakland until her father purchased a plot of land in the Mission to build them a new house. She says many Black San Franciscans tapped into networks of friends and family in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon: \u003c/b>The people from San Francisco came over here when their houses burned down and they took care of them over here. Red Cross, and they set up temporary housing and what have you for the people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Tent cities sprang up in parks around San Francisco…housing 200-thousand people who had become homeless overnight. People set up outdoor kitchens and cooked together. Tanea lunsford lynx documented Black San Franciscans among these scenes in her exhibit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>The first photo that we see is a photo of two young black people, children who are sitting in the grass and you see tents and you see a clothing line up behind them, and you see a little stove for cooking as well. And this is a campsite that was set up in Golden Gate Park, because folks had lost everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>A PBS documentary called The Great 1906 San Francisco Earthquake paints a desolate picture of life in the aftermath.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Great 1906 San Francisco Earthquake Narration: \u003c/b>Standing in bread lines, meat lines, soup lines, any kind of a line became the central activity of life. Everyone had to do it. Soldiers made sure nobody cheated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>And anybody not standing in line, was put to work rebuilding the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Great 1906 San Francisco Earthquake Narration: \u003c/b>It was said that in many places, the debris was not even allowed to cool, and bricks were pitched from lots when still as warm as muffins. Volunteers on the cleanup crews took up the refrain in the damnedest, finest ruins I’d rather be a brick than live anywhere else but San Francisco. The great cleanup had begun. Thousands of standing walls were torn down. An estimated 6.5 billion bricks were carted away or cleaned of mortar to be reused in new buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>People who lived through these times remember it as a swift recovery. Alfred Butler was a Black teenager living in Oakland at the time of the earthquake. He took a mule and cart all the way down to San Jose and around the Bay in order to see what had happened to San Francisco for himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He recalls seeing a lot of rubble, and the biggest buildings knocked down. But over the following months the recovery progressed quickly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alfred Butler: \u003c/b>They built it up right away. In a year’s time, things were pretty well cleaned up. And then they started to build.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>At the turn of the 20th century, Black San Franciscans lived in neighborhoods scattered throughout San Francisco, but many single men were concentrated in hotels downtown…like Aurelius Alberga who we heard from earlier. Alfred Butler says after the earthquake, the Western Addition became the hub of Black life. That’s where his brother moved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alfred Butler: \u003c/b>After the earthquake, everybody moved on Fillmore Street. All the businesses on Fillmore Street started booming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>San Franciscans came together after the quake and people from all walks of life helped one another in that moment of crises. But the oral histories of these Black Americans who survived it show that as the city rebuilt, it went back to the de facto racism that ruled it. Butler says good jobs were still reserved for white people, while Black people struggled to find menial ones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Albert Butler: \u003c/b>It was hard to get a job. Negroes, we had a tough time getting a job. A menial job like washing windows or running errands or something like that. Running an elevator or something like that. It was hard to get a job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music transition\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>For Tanea, the photos of San Franciscans living in tents, cooking outdoors, waiting in line for basic necessities are eerily similar to scenes on the streets of the city today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>When looking at these photos, I began to see the past, speaking to the future and the future, speaking to the past.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>And as a Black person, tanea sees echoes of \u003ci>her San Francisco\u003c/i> in the oral histories she combed through. A small Black community fighting to stay in a changing city. The devastation of displacement and loss. But also the love of this place and the tenacity to survive. It’s all too familiar. Her poem “We Were Here” is an ode to the Black community in San Francisco, which stretches from the Gold Rush to now. Here’s an excerpt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> We were here already, living fantastical lives, already saving the best for the present, already studying the contours of the city. The bay knew us. This ocean was salted with our knowing already. We knew the feeling of firm ground. Before the shaking. We knew stability. The ground knew the planting and rising of our feet like a dance. We were already sending for each other, extending a fishing hook south and pulling each other up with calloused hands. We were already spinning tales about this mass of fog. We were already making home here. \u003ci>(fades under)\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>That story was brought to us by Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> But of course, we were here, living in our signature ways. Of course, when the earth shifted, we went looking for who could be lost in the cracks. Of course it made for lore. Of course we were doing the fantastical feat like a dance. The earth cracked open and we kept time, an offering of our survival. We kept on living.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades out\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> tanea’s exhibit is no longer on display at the library, but you can see all the photos she used and \u003ca href=\"https://www.tanealunsfordlynx.com/wewerehere\">read her writing on the project’s website\u003c/a>. You can find a link in our show notes or on baycurious.org.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special thanks to the San Francisco History Center, part of the San Francisco Public Library for letting us use the oral histories in their archive. And to the San Francisco African-American Historical and Cultural Society who co-sponsored the original oral history project.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Our show is made by:\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Katrina Schwartz\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>Christopher Beale\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Katherine Monahan\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>and me, Olivia Allen Price. Additional support from:\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Jen Chien: \u003c/b>Jen Chien\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Springer: \u003c/b>Katie Springer\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maha Sanad: \u003c/b>Maha Sanad\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethan Toven-Lindsey:\u003c/b> Ethan Toven-Lindsey\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Crowd:\u003c/b> And the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll be back next week.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "cambrian-park-plaza-a-beloved-san-jose-strip-mall-awaits-a-new-future",
"title": "Cambrian Park Plaza, A Beloved San José Strip Mall, Awaits a New Future",
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"headTitle": "Cambrian Park Plaza, A Beloved San José Strip Mall, Awaits a New Future | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first thing a lot of people notice about Cambrian Park Plaza on the west side of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-jose\">San José\u003c/a> is the sign.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s big; it’s yellow; and it has a carousel on top, complete with playful figures encircling the outside. At one point, the carousel actually rotated — but like many things in this shopping plaza — it has seen better days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The plaza itself is low slung with a massive parking lot that is often empty. Storefronts are made of brick and nestle under a covered walkway. It’s not your average strip mall with a big grocery store at the center and smaller chains flanking it. Instead, there’s a bit more charm. Shops are clustered around little courtyards with white picket fences, picnic benches and trees. Some stores have window boxes with flowers. There are roses and palm trees. It’s quaint, but faded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It has a circus slash English garden theme, cottage theme,” Connie Young said. “I was like, ‘This seems like an interesting place, and a place that has a lot of history.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Young was visiting Cambrian Park to volunteer at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ibokrescue.org/info/display?PageID=21948\">Itty Bitty Orphan Kitty Cafe\u003c/a>, a pet adoption organization located in the plaza. She was surprised to see many nostalgic memories of the place online. She wanted to learn more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079115\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079115\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A covered walkway lined with storefronts stretches through Cambrian Park Plaza on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“There seem to be a lot of people who are mourning the loss of Cambrian Park Plaza, a 1950s era strip mall in San José that is set to be demolished for housing and retail space,” she wrote in to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a>. “What’s the history of that place?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Valley of Heart’s Delight\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Cambrian Park neighborhood represents the quintessential story of San José development. For a long time, San José was small, an agricultural center for the many orchards and farms nearby. But after World War II, the Defense industry was booming and more people were moving to the area for jobs. The city manager at the time, Dutch Hammond, wanted to create the Los Angeles of Northern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Largely what got developed here was track housing, which was very cheap to build,” said Michael Brillot, a retired San José city planner. “You just knock down the cherry orchard or the apricot and prune orchard, and you plop in houses like you build Model T Fords on an assembly line, except the workers move as opposed to the product.”[aside postID=news_12077572 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00034_TV-KQED.jpg'] The push was to develop outwards from San José’s core and to build enough housing to supply the workforce to places like Sunnyvale and Cupertino.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Cambrian Park neighborhood — and its shopping mall — was part of that history. A large landowner named Paul Schaeffer owned the orchards that became Cambrian Park. He decided to tear out the trees and build houses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He recognized people need to buy stuff,” said Peter Clarke, a Cambrian Park resident and member of the Friends of Cambrian Park group. “They need a post office and a grocery store. So he assembled this particular plaza as the only real center in this area.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, many families only had one car. It was common for the breadwinner to drive north to work while the other parent stayed home with the children. During its heyday, Cambrian Park Plaza had everything families needed within walking distance of their home — a grocery store, a hardware store, clothing stores, a post office, a bowling alley, even doctors’ and dentists’ offices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This was the downtown,” said Bob Burres, another local resident. “There is no ‘main street’ in the Cambrian Park area. This was it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A slow decline\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That remained true for decades, but over time, the plaza began to fade and social patterns changed. People drove more and further for things, making the plaza less central to their needs. The Schaeffer family retained ownership of the plaza \u003ca href=\"https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2022/08/05/structures-cambrian-timeline.html\">until 2015\u003c/a>. Peter Clarke guesses that it was passive income for owner Paul Schaeffer and his wife in their later years. But when they died, their children sold the plaza to a developer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When it was bought, and people said, ‘We’re going to redevelop it,’ we were in favor,” Peter Clarke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079113\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079113\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Cambrian Park Plaza sign, built in 1953 with the shopping center, features a rotating carousel and received historic status in 2016, on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Many Cambrian Park residents were ready for an updated space that might once again be the center of community life. The Friends of Cambrian Park group stayed involved as the developer, Texas-based Weingarten Realty, proposed various uses for the property. But residents did not like early proposals that resembled more traditional strip malls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The community was very clear,” Clarke said. “They wanted to see a place that was a location that people would come to linger at, that had sit-down dining. They didn’t want more fast food.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They wanted something like \u003ca href=\"https://www.thepruneyard.com/\">The Pruneyard\u003c/a> in Campbell or the Los Gatos’ downtown, two locations residents currently go to for entertainment and dining.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>An iterative process\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2022/08/05/structures-cambrian-timeline.html\">Over many years,\u003c/a> after lots of city planning meetings featuring \u003cem>some\u003c/em> yelling, there’s finally a proposal on the table that many residents can get behind. It was approved by the city council in 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The new development would include underground parking, retail with apartments built above, a central plaza, a hotel, an assisted living facility, 48 single-family homes and 25 townhouses.[aside postID=news_12078615 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260320-KOGURACOMPANY00242_TV-KQED.jpg'] But four years later and nothing has been built yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The plan that you can look through on the city’s website is not economically feasible to build,” said Kelly Snider, a professor at San José State University and a development consultant. “There’s just a lot going on in a very small parcel. It’s a little bit of a Frankenstein.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She said no one developer specializes in all those various uses. On top of that, very few big projects like this are moving forward anywhere in the Bay Area. The economics just don’t work out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Interest rates are high, construction materials and labor are expensive and people’s work and consumer habits have changed. Brick-and-mortar retail stores have a lot of competition online. There’s fewer business travelers in San José. More people are working remotely, so office spaces sit empty.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Will the Cambrian Park project ever get built?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“I think that the interest rates, at some point, [will] come down,” Brilliot said. “And I think some projects will come back. But I think it’s gonna be slower, more flat growth. And because of that, I don’t think you’re gonna see a massive amount of development like you did in the dot-com boom when things were just going crazy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For their part, Bob Burres and Peter Clarke are waiting nervously to see how it all turns out. They know that of all the elements in the approved plan, the single-family homes and townhouses will be the easiest for the developer to recoup investment. After all, housing is always in demand in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079109\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079109\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Red roses rise above a white picket fence in a garden at Cambrian Park Plaza on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Once you put up housing on any piece of commercial land, it’s never going to be commercial again,” Peter Clarke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if that happens, the neighbors’ dream of a central gathering spot — like the Pruneyard — will never come to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The permit for the current \u003ca href=\"https://www.sanjoseca.gov/your-government/departments-offices/planning-building-code-enforcement/planning-division/major-development-projects/cambrian-park-plaza-signature-project\">Cambrian Park Signature Project\u003c/a> will expire in 2028. But the developer recently applied to alter the permit so they can build the housing part of the plan first and extend the permit up to 4 years in the process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city is currently reviewing the proposal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>*An earlier version of this article called this project the “Cambrian Park Urban Village” when in fact its official name is “Cambrian Park Signature Project.” A Signature Project is one element of a larger urban village area. We regret the error.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sometimes questions come from the most random places.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I volunteer for a San José-based kitten rescue and it’s called Itty Bitty Orphan Kitty Cafe. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Connie Young, from Mountain View.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we have adoptable foster kittens that come every weekend. And there’s two playrooms. And you can book a 50-minute slot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The kitten cafe where she volunteers is located in Cambrian Park Plaza on the west side of San José.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So I went there to volunteer and I saw that plaza and it was kind of different than the other strip mall plazas in the area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Cambrian Park Plaza isn’t one long flat fronted building like a typical strip mall. It was built to mimic the experience of a town’s main street, so the facade turns often, creating little plazas with white picket fences and brickwork. There are window boxes and roses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It has kind of like a circus slash like English garden theme, cottage theme.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Circus because one of the defining features of this plaza is a huge yellow sign with a carousel on top. The figures \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">used\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> to rotate, although like many things in this plaza, it has seen better days.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was like, this seems like an interesting place and a place that has a lot of history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This shopping mall is slated for redevelopment, and Connie wants to know more about its history and what it could become. Connie also noticed that online many people have shared fond memories of this plaza’s heyday in the 1960s, 70s and 80s. Let’s hear a few…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I remember driving by Cambrian Plaza and seeing the carousel from when we first arrived in San José.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There was always a grocery store there when I was a little kid. So we’d walk up to the grocery store to do our shopping for the day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was a go-to. I mean, you could do everything there. You could go to a delicatessen and get your meats and cheeses, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> There was Ben Franklin, which was the coolest store on the face of the planet. It was like a dime store and you could get anything there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Gillis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were hardware stores there. There were pet shops, as I said, the clothing stores, very lot of practical things that, you know, people would need.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And it was in walking distance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The minute I think of the smell of bubblegum ice cream, which for a four-year-old that was like Nirvana, I picture myself inside that ice cream parlor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I remember going to the bowling alley. We used to go there a lot during high school and hang out with the other teenagers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To this day remember the sound of the pins hitting the the back wall and the balls striking and people laughing and having a good time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Gillis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’d go down in a little group of you know five or six or eight kids and be back before dinner. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were so many things that, that as a kid, it made my life feel a little bit bigger and richer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Those were nearby residents Jaime Portillo, Carolyn Robinson and Janet Gillis sharing their memories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz headed to San José to find out more about the fate of Cambrian Park Plaza. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The first Cambrian Park neighbors I meet are characters…they’ve been attending city meetings and organizing their neighbors to influence what gets built here for years. And they aren’t shy about some of the tactics they used..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m the guy who kicked over the apple cart, repeatedly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Bob Burres — a proud instigator. His friend and neighbor, Peter Clarke, has a different approach he says…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He’s nice, he’s polite, he’s a proper English gentleman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I am the Brit, which is the funny accent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bob and Peter like this neighborhood for its views of the mountains and quiet, neighborly charm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This area was originally all farmland. Then the farmers decided they could make more money by essentially selling up and having housing developed on the periphery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The guy who owned all the land that became the neighborhood of Cambrian Park was named Paul Schaeffer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But then he recognized, you know, people need to buy stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This area was the heart of Cambrian Park. This was the downtown. There is no main street in Cambrian park area. This was it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As Peter and Bob are showing me around it’s clear this mall is no longer the heart of the neighborhood. But the neighbors hope it could be again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As you go through you see there’s numerous little plazas and sitting spaces all around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The plaza has a faded quality. We walk down the outside of the building, which has covered walkways that protect us from the rain that’s falling. Many storefronts are empty and I hear just as much about what it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">used to be\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> as what it is now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This used to be the Cambrian Post office for years.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That used to be a Mexican restaurant, but closed down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The things that are left… a boxing gym, a pet adoption agency, a store for kids baseball gear…are on short term leases. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You can’t put a lot of investment into a retail space for a six month lease.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peter and Bob have both lived in Cambrian Park for 30 years… but even back in the late 80s and early 90s the plaza was already in slow decline. The Schaeffer family owned it for most of its existence, but stopped keeping it up in later years. When Paul Schaffer and his wife died, their children sold it to a developer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When it was bought and people said we’re going to redevelop it, we were in favor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peter and Bob are part of a group called the Friends of Cambrian Park Plaza. They’ve been pushing the city and developers to create a vibrant place to live, shop and gather.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We have hopes that something beautiful will come out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They look to a place like The Pruneyard in Campbell as their model. It’s got local businesses alongside chains..and is a pleasant place to hang out.We’ll dig into the details of what could be built here and explore why achieving that vision could be a tough sell in San José right now. All that, coming up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Almost a million people live in San José. It’s the largest city in Northern California, but its development hasn’t followed the pattern of a typical big city. That’s why despite being dubbed the Heart of Silicon Valley…many people think a more apt term would be “the bedroom” of Silicon Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you look at San José, it very much feels like you’re in the San Fernando Valley or somewhere in Los Angeles, not the old urban part, but the more auto suburban track housing part of LA. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Michel Brilliot worked for the city of San José for 27 years…retiring as the deputy director of long range projects. He says the sprawling, residential character of the city can be traced back to one man\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michalel Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Dutch Hammond. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Like Cambrian Park, the rest of San José was mostly agricultural. Before Dutch Hammond came along, there were fruit trees as far as the eye could see. But after World War II, the defense industry was booming and Hammond understood its workers needed somewhere to live. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Largely what got developed here was track housing which was very cheap to build you just knock down the cherry orchard or the apricot and prune orchard and you just you plop in houses like you build model t fords on an assembly line except the workers move as opposed to the product.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Cambrian Park neighborhood was part of this era…built in the late 1950s. The homes are largely ranch style with yards and garages. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People historically would have a family and settle down and work and they would drive north for their job in what became and is now Silicon Valley. And that to a large extent has not changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The problem with that, Michael says, is that running a city that is mostly residential, with few big businesses, is expensive. Residents want services.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They want code enforcement to deal with the RV that someone’s living in down the street or parks and maintaining the parks and they want libraries and. So they want all these things which cost money. Businesses generally don’t want as much services from the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As early as the 1970s, San José city leaders realized it needed a better balance of businesses and homes. The goal was to bring more jobs into the city itself, to increase the tax base and to reduce congestion on the roads. Those are still the goals of city planners, says Michael.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And the idea now is really to, instead of growing out, growing up, and growing up really along transit corridors and transit stations and in the downtown and create these places that are called urban villages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The proposed plan for Cambrian Park Plaza is one of these urban villages – a cluster of amenities, housing and jobs near a transit corridor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music to emphasize back and forth\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It would have underground parking with retail above.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A six-story apartment block on top of retail. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Shops would be built around a central plaza for families and neighbors to gather. Then there’d be…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">An assisted living building\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">48 single family homes, 25 townhouses, and…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A hotel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But nothing has actually been built by the developer, Kimco Realty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we’ve seen very little higher density projects break ground. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelly Snider:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The plan that you can look through on the city’s website is not economically feasible to build.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kelly Snider is an adjunct professor at San José State and a development consultant. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelly Snider: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s just a lot going on in a very small parcel. It’s a little bit of a Frankenstein.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kelly says there’s no one developer who specializes in so many different types of buildings…hotels, assisted living, single family homes… retail..they’re all very different. And the economic picture right now makes it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">even less likely \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">this project will be completed anytime soon. It’s a story we see around the Bay Area. Labor is expensive. Construction materials cost more than ever… and interest rates aren’t favorable. Plus, Michael Brilliot says, the population of San José is now shrinking, not growing.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, will the Cambrian Park urban village ever get built?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think that when the interest rates, at some point, they’ll come down. And I think some projects will come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But I think it’s gonna be a slower, more flat growth and because of that, I don’t think you’re gonna see masses of amount of development like you did in the dot-com boom when things were just going crazy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In a post-COVID world, it may not make sense to build hotels and offices. Brick and mortar stores have to compete with online retailers. It’s a different real estate picture now than when this plan was conceived a few years ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bob Burres, Peter Clarke and the other Friends of Cambrian Park are watching this play out nervously. They worry the only economically feasible thing to do with the property is to build townhouses…after all, in the Bay Area, housing is always in high demand.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of the things that we have heard over and over from the folks in the city is developers come in with fairly grand plans. And they’re gonna do some housing, and they’re going to do some sort of commercial, and they are going to something else. Well, housing is the only thing that’s profitable. And so they decide to build, we’re going to build the housing first. And then phase two and phase three will have these other things. They build the housing and then they say, sorry, it doesn’t pencil and they abandon the project. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Once you put up housing on any piece of commercial land it’s never going to be commercial again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And if that happens, their dream of a gathering spot like the one in Campbell…the Pruneyard…will never become a reality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I brought all this back to Connie Young, our question asker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I can see why they would want to kind of redevelop it into something more community focused. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Connie grew up in the South Bay and remembers wishing there was more to do…more places she could go without a ride from her parents. Now she’s living in Mountain View and has enjoyed the way streets have been closed downtown to make space for dining and gathering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I feel like that’s what the South Bay is missing in a lot of the cities, especially San José, like a central plaza or the neighborhood where everybody gathers in the evening and their kids run around and play. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The permit for the current Cambrian Park Urban Village plan will expire in 2028. Getting new ones would be expensive for the developer…maybe that’s why the company recently applied to alter the permit so they can build the housing part of the plan first and extend the permit up to 4 years in the process. The city is currently reviewing the proposal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz. Thanks to Connie Young for asking this week’s question. It was selected by you in a monthly voting round on Bay \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://curious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Curious.or\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">g. That’s one of the things I think makes Bay Curious unique… it is driven by you – your questions, about your community. And, it’s funded by you too. We need your support to keep things going, so please consider making a donation to KQED today. It only takes a few minutes. You can do it right from your phone. \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> is the place to do it. Thanks!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our show is produced by Christopher Beale, Katrina Schwartz and Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">With extra support from Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Cambrian Park Plaza, A Beloved San José Strip Mall, Awaits a New Future | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first thing a lot of people notice about Cambrian Park Plaza on the west side of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-jose\">San José\u003c/a> is the sign.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s big; it’s yellow; and it has a carousel on top, complete with playful figures encircling the outside. At one point, the carousel actually rotated — but like many things in this shopping plaza — it has seen better days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The plaza itself is low slung with a massive parking lot that is often empty. Storefronts are made of brick and nestle under a covered walkway. It’s not your average strip mall with a big grocery store at the center and smaller chains flanking it. Instead, there’s a bit more charm. Shops are clustered around little courtyards with white picket fences, picnic benches and trees. Some stores have window boxes with flowers. There are roses and palm trees. It’s quaint, but faded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It has a circus slash English garden theme, cottage theme,” Connie Young said. “I was like, ‘This seems like an interesting place, and a place that has a lot of history.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Young was visiting Cambrian Park to volunteer at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ibokrescue.org/info/display?PageID=21948\">Itty Bitty Orphan Kitty Cafe\u003c/a>, a pet adoption organization located in the plaza. She was surprised to see many nostalgic memories of the place online. She wanted to learn more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079115\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079115\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A covered walkway lined with storefronts stretches through Cambrian Park Plaza on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“There seem to be a lot of people who are mourning the loss of Cambrian Park Plaza, a 1950s era strip mall in San José that is set to be demolished for housing and retail space,” she wrote in to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a>. “What’s the history of that place?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Valley of Heart’s Delight\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Cambrian Park neighborhood represents the quintessential story of San José development. For a long time, San José was small, an agricultural center for the many orchards and farms nearby. But after World War II, the Defense industry was booming and more people were moving to the area for jobs. The city manager at the time, Dutch Hammond, wanted to create the Los Angeles of Northern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Largely what got developed here was track housing, which was very cheap to build,” said Michael Brillot, a retired San José city planner. “You just knock down the cherry orchard or the apricot and prune orchard, and you plop in houses like you build Model T Fords on an assembly line, except the workers move as opposed to the product.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp> The push was to develop outwards from San José’s core and to build enough housing to supply the workforce to places like Sunnyvale and Cupertino.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Cambrian Park neighborhood — and its shopping mall — was part of that history. A large landowner named Paul Schaeffer owned the orchards that became Cambrian Park. He decided to tear out the trees and build houses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He recognized people need to buy stuff,” said Peter Clarke, a Cambrian Park resident and member of the Friends of Cambrian Park group. “They need a post office and a grocery store. So he assembled this particular plaza as the only real center in this area.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, many families only had one car. It was common for the breadwinner to drive north to work while the other parent stayed home with the children. During its heyday, Cambrian Park Plaza had everything families needed within walking distance of their home — a grocery store, a hardware store, clothing stores, a post office, a bowling alley, even doctors’ and dentists’ offices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This was the downtown,” said Bob Burres, another local resident. “There is no ‘main street’ in the Cambrian Park area. This was it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A slow decline\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That remained true for decades, but over time, the plaza began to fade and social patterns changed. People drove more and further for things, making the plaza less central to their needs. The Schaeffer family retained ownership of the plaza \u003ca href=\"https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2022/08/05/structures-cambrian-timeline.html\">until 2015\u003c/a>. Peter Clarke guesses that it was passive income for owner Paul Schaeffer and his wife in their later years. But when they died, their children sold the plaza to a developer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When it was bought, and people said, ‘We’re going to redevelop it,’ we were in favor,” Peter Clarke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079113\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079113\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Cambrian Park Plaza sign, built in 1953 with the shopping center, features a rotating carousel and received historic status in 2016, on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Many Cambrian Park residents were ready for an updated space that might once again be the center of community life. The Friends of Cambrian Park group stayed involved as the developer, Texas-based Weingarten Realty, proposed various uses for the property. But residents did not like early proposals that resembled more traditional strip malls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The community was very clear,” Clarke said. “They wanted to see a place that was a location that people would come to linger at, that had sit-down dining. They didn’t want more fast food.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They wanted something like \u003ca href=\"https://www.thepruneyard.com/\">The Pruneyard\u003c/a> in Campbell or the Los Gatos’ downtown, two locations residents currently go to for entertainment and dining.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>An iterative process\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2022/08/05/structures-cambrian-timeline.html\">Over many years,\u003c/a> after lots of city planning meetings featuring \u003cem>some\u003c/em> yelling, there’s finally a proposal on the table that many residents can get behind. It was approved by the city council in 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The new development would include underground parking, retail with apartments built above, a central plaza, a hotel, an assisted living facility, 48 single-family homes and 25 townhouses.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp> But four years later and nothing has been built yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The plan that you can look through on the city’s website is not economically feasible to build,” said Kelly Snider, a professor at San José State University and a development consultant. “There’s just a lot going on in a very small parcel. It’s a little bit of a Frankenstein.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She said no one developer specializes in all those various uses. On top of that, very few big projects like this are moving forward anywhere in the Bay Area. The economics just don’t work out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Interest rates are high, construction materials and labor are expensive and people’s work and consumer habits have changed. Brick-and-mortar retail stores have a lot of competition online. There’s fewer business travelers in San José. More people are working remotely, so office spaces sit empty.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Will the Cambrian Park project ever get built?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“I think that the interest rates, at some point, [will] come down,” Brilliot said. “And I think some projects will come back. But I think it’s gonna be slower, more flat growth. And because of that, I don’t think you’re gonna see a massive amount of development like you did in the dot-com boom when things were just going crazy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For their part, Bob Burres and Peter Clarke are waiting nervously to see how it all turns out. They know that of all the elements in the approved plan, the single-family homes and townhouses will be the easiest for the developer to recoup investment. After all, housing is always in demand in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079109\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079109\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Red roses rise above a white picket fence in a garden at Cambrian Park Plaza on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Once you put up housing on any piece of commercial land, it’s never going to be commercial again,” Peter Clarke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if that happens, the neighbors’ dream of a central gathering spot — like the Pruneyard — will never come to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The permit for the current \u003ca href=\"https://www.sanjoseca.gov/your-government/departments-offices/planning-building-code-enforcement/planning-division/major-development-projects/cambrian-park-plaza-signature-project\">Cambrian Park Signature Project\u003c/a> will expire in 2028. But the developer recently applied to alter the permit so they can build the housing part of the plan first and extend the permit up to 4 years in the process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city is currently reviewing the proposal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>*An earlier version of this article called this project the “Cambrian Park Urban Village” when in fact its official name is “Cambrian Park Signature Project.” A Signature Project is one element of a larger urban village area. We regret the error.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sometimes questions come from the most random places.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I volunteer for a San José-based kitten rescue and it’s called Itty Bitty Orphan Kitty Cafe. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Connie Young, from Mountain View.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we have adoptable foster kittens that come every weekend. And there’s two playrooms. And you can book a 50-minute slot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The kitten cafe where she volunteers is located in Cambrian Park Plaza on the west side of San José.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So I went there to volunteer and I saw that plaza and it was kind of different than the other strip mall plazas in the area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Cambrian Park Plaza isn’t one long flat fronted building like a typical strip mall. It was built to mimic the experience of a town’s main street, so the facade turns often, creating little plazas with white picket fences and brickwork. There are window boxes and roses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It has kind of like a circus slash like English garden theme, cottage theme.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Circus because one of the defining features of this plaza is a huge yellow sign with a carousel on top. The figures \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">used\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> to rotate, although like many things in this plaza, it has seen better days.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was like, this seems like an interesting place and a place that has a lot of history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This shopping mall is slated for redevelopment, and Connie wants to know more about its history and what it could become. Connie also noticed that online many people have shared fond memories of this plaza’s heyday in the 1960s, 70s and 80s. Let’s hear a few…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I remember driving by Cambrian Plaza and seeing the carousel from when we first arrived in San José.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There was always a grocery store there when I was a little kid. So we’d walk up to the grocery store to do our shopping for the day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was a go-to. I mean, you could do everything there. You could go to a delicatessen and get your meats and cheeses, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> There was Ben Franklin, which was the coolest store on the face of the planet. It was like a dime store and you could get anything there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Gillis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were hardware stores there. There were pet shops, as I said, the clothing stores, very lot of practical things that, you know, people would need.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And it was in walking distance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The minute I think of the smell of bubblegum ice cream, which for a four-year-old that was like Nirvana, I picture myself inside that ice cream parlor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I remember going to the bowling alley. We used to go there a lot during high school and hang out with the other teenagers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To this day remember the sound of the pins hitting the the back wall and the balls striking and people laughing and having a good time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Gillis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’d go down in a little group of you know five or six or eight kids and be back before dinner. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were so many things that, that as a kid, it made my life feel a little bit bigger and richer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Those were nearby residents Jaime Portillo, Carolyn Robinson and Janet Gillis sharing their memories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz headed to San José to find out more about the fate of Cambrian Park Plaza. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The first Cambrian Park neighbors I meet are characters…they’ve been attending city meetings and organizing their neighbors to influence what gets built here for years. And they aren’t shy about some of the tactics they used..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m the guy who kicked over the apple cart, repeatedly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Bob Burres — a proud instigator. His friend and neighbor, Peter Clarke, has a different approach he says…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He’s nice, he’s polite, he’s a proper English gentleman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I am the Brit, which is the funny accent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bob and Peter like this neighborhood for its views of the mountains and quiet, neighborly charm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This area was originally all farmland. Then the farmers decided they could make more money by essentially selling up and having housing developed on the periphery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The guy who owned all the land that became the neighborhood of Cambrian Park was named Paul Schaeffer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But then he recognized, you know, people need to buy stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This area was the heart of Cambrian Park. This was the downtown. There is no main street in Cambrian park area. This was it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As Peter and Bob are showing me around it’s clear this mall is no longer the heart of the neighborhood. But the neighbors hope it could be again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As you go through you see there’s numerous little plazas and sitting spaces all around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The plaza has a faded quality. We walk down the outside of the building, which has covered walkways that protect us from the rain that’s falling. Many storefronts are empty and I hear just as much about what it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">used to be\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> as what it is now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This used to be the Cambrian Post office for years.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That used to be a Mexican restaurant, but closed down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The things that are left… a boxing gym, a pet adoption agency, a store for kids baseball gear…are on short term leases. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You can’t put a lot of investment into a retail space for a six month lease.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peter and Bob have both lived in Cambrian Park for 30 years… but even back in the late 80s and early 90s the plaza was already in slow decline. The Schaeffer family owned it for most of its existence, but stopped keeping it up in later years. When Paul Schaffer and his wife died, their children sold it to a developer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When it was bought and people said we’re going to redevelop it, we were in favor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peter and Bob are part of a group called the Friends of Cambrian Park Plaza. They’ve been pushing the city and developers to create a vibrant place to live, shop and gather.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We have hopes that something beautiful will come out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They look to a place like The Pruneyard in Campbell as their model. It’s got local businesses alongside chains..and is a pleasant place to hang out.We’ll dig into the details of what could be built here and explore why achieving that vision could be a tough sell in San José right now. All that, coming up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Almost a million people live in San José. It’s the largest city in Northern California, but its development hasn’t followed the pattern of a typical big city. That’s why despite being dubbed the Heart of Silicon Valley…many people think a more apt term would be “the bedroom” of Silicon Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you look at San José, it very much feels like you’re in the San Fernando Valley or somewhere in Los Angeles, not the old urban part, but the more auto suburban track housing part of LA. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Michel Brilliot worked for the city of San José for 27 years…retiring as the deputy director of long range projects. He says the sprawling, residential character of the city can be traced back to one man\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michalel Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Dutch Hammond. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Like Cambrian Park, the rest of San José was mostly agricultural. Before Dutch Hammond came along, there were fruit trees as far as the eye could see. But after World War II, the defense industry was booming and Hammond understood its workers needed somewhere to live. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Largely what got developed here was track housing which was very cheap to build you just knock down the cherry orchard or the apricot and prune orchard and you just you plop in houses like you build model t fords on an assembly line except the workers move as opposed to the product.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Cambrian Park neighborhood was part of this era…built in the late 1950s. The homes are largely ranch style with yards and garages. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People historically would have a family and settle down and work and they would drive north for their job in what became and is now Silicon Valley. And that to a large extent has not changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The problem with that, Michael says, is that running a city that is mostly residential, with few big businesses, is expensive. Residents want services.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They want code enforcement to deal with the RV that someone’s living in down the street or parks and maintaining the parks and they want libraries and. So they want all these things which cost money. Businesses generally don’t want as much services from the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As early as the 1970s, San José city leaders realized it needed a better balance of businesses and homes. The goal was to bring more jobs into the city itself, to increase the tax base and to reduce congestion on the roads. Those are still the goals of city planners, says Michael.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And the idea now is really to, instead of growing out, growing up, and growing up really along transit corridors and transit stations and in the downtown and create these places that are called urban villages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The proposed plan for Cambrian Park Plaza is one of these urban villages – a cluster of amenities, housing and jobs near a transit corridor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music to emphasize back and forth\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It would have underground parking with retail above.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A six-story apartment block on top of retail. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Shops would be built around a central plaza for families and neighbors to gather. Then there’d be…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">An assisted living building\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">48 single family homes, 25 townhouses, and…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A hotel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But nothing has actually been built by the developer, Kimco Realty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we’ve seen very little higher density projects break ground. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelly Snider:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The plan that you can look through on the city’s website is not economically feasible to build.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kelly Snider is an adjunct professor at San José State and a development consultant. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelly Snider: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s just a lot going on in a very small parcel. It’s a little bit of a Frankenstein.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kelly says there’s no one developer who specializes in so many different types of buildings…hotels, assisted living, single family homes… retail..they’re all very different. And the economic picture right now makes it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">even less likely \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">this project will be completed anytime soon. It’s a story we see around the Bay Area. Labor is expensive. Construction materials cost more than ever… and interest rates aren’t favorable. Plus, Michael Brilliot says, the population of San José is now shrinking, not growing.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, will the Cambrian Park urban village ever get built?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think that when the interest rates, at some point, they’ll come down. And I think some projects will come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But I think it’s gonna be a slower, more flat growth and because of that, I don’t think you’re gonna see masses of amount of development like you did in the dot-com boom when things were just going crazy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In a post-COVID world, it may not make sense to build hotels and offices. Brick and mortar stores have to compete with online retailers. It’s a different real estate picture now than when this plan was conceived a few years ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bob Burres, Peter Clarke and the other Friends of Cambrian Park are watching this play out nervously. They worry the only economically feasible thing to do with the property is to build townhouses…after all, in the Bay Area, housing is always in high demand.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of the things that we have heard over and over from the folks in the city is developers come in with fairly grand plans. And they’re gonna do some housing, and they’re going to do some sort of commercial, and they are going to something else. Well, housing is the only thing that’s profitable. And so they decide to build, we’re going to build the housing first. And then phase two and phase three will have these other things. They build the housing and then they say, sorry, it doesn’t pencil and they abandon the project. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Once you put up housing on any piece of commercial land it’s never going to be commercial again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And if that happens, their dream of a gathering spot like the one in Campbell…the Pruneyard…will never become a reality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I brought all this back to Connie Young, our question asker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I can see why they would want to kind of redevelop it into something more community focused. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Connie grew up in the South Bay and remembers wishing there was more to do…more places she could go without a ride from her parents. Now she’s living in Mountain View and has enjoyed the way streets have been closed downtown to make space for dining and gathering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I feel like that’s what the South Bay is missing in a lot of the cities, especially San José, like a central plaza or the neighborhood where everybody gathers in the evening and their kids run around and play. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The permit for the current Cambrian Park Urban Village plan will expire in 2028. Getting new ones would be expensive for the developer…maybe that’s why the company recently applied to alter the permit so they can build the housing part of the plan first and extend the permit up to 4 years in the process. The city is currently reviewing the proposal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz. Thanks to Connie Young for asking this week’s question. It was selected by you in a monthly voting round on Bay \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://curious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Curious.or\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">g. That’s one of the things I think makes Bay Curious unique… it is driven by you – your questions, about your community. And, it’s funded by you too. We need your support to keep things going, so please consider making a donation to KQED today. It only takes a few minutes. You can do it right from your phone. \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> is the place to do it. Thanks!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our show is produced by Christopher Beale, Katrina Schwartz and Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">With extra support from Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "in-a-tech-hub-like-the-bay-area-why-do-bart-announcements-sound-so-ancient",
"title": "In a Tech Hub Like the Bay Area, Why Do BART Announcements Sound So Ancient?",
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"headTitle": "In a Tech Hub Like the Bay Area, Why Do BART Announcements Sound So Ancient? | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bart\">Bay Area Rapid Transit\u003c/a> — or BART — was a brand new, cutting-edge transportation system when it opened in 1972. Since then, its reputation has become a bit less high-tech. And while riders hear a variety of voices making announcements throughout the BART system, there are two that sound different — robotic, synthesized voices, one male and one female, that sound like they are from yesteryear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And at least one rider has taken particular note.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never understood what it was saying,” Bay Curious listener Jimmy Tobin said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Jimmy, the voices sound rudimentary, like the voice of 1990s Microsoft Sam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m baffled by this thing,” he said. “I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078618\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078618\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1522\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-1536x1169.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sept. 11, 1972, BART opens to the public. On the first day alone, 15,000 people rode the new trains, despite the fact that they only ran between Fremont and MacArthur Stations in the East Bay. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Bay Area Rapid Transit))\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It seems like a blatant contradiction to him that trains running through communities at the heart of the AI boom sound like they’re from the first computers ever made. He wants to know why these robotic announcements have never been updated.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Passengers used to just wait\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before the late 1990s, BART had no live train information or announcements for passengers. There would occasionally be voiced announcements in the case of major disruptions, but on a regular day, riders would consult a paper schedule to see when a train was supposed to arrive. In the case of delays, riders would wait on the platform, without any information on when the train might actually come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in 2000, BART began using a new piece of technology.[aside postID=news_12077572 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00034_TV-KQED.jpg'] The Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) is a data hub that allows BART to calculate and communicate live train locations. For the first time, BART had the ability to share real-time information with riders, like the estimated time of arrival of a train. They initially did this with digital signage on the train platforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The data would later be made publicly available, allowing for other platforms like navigation apps to utilize the live train information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When this technology was rolling out in 2000, BART was also assessing the accessibility of its system for blind and visually impaired riders. BART’s policy became, “Anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say,” said Alicia Trost, chief communications officer at BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In order to translate the digital signs with real-time updates into verbal announcements, BART acquired a text-to-speech system from Lucent Technologies, a telecommunications company. And those synthesized voices that bug Tobin so much, they have names — George and Gracie. Listen closely, and you’ll hear that George announces trains in one direction and the Gracie announces trains in the opposite direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, this was cutting-edge technology — the system could vocalize thousands of announcements per day with real-time information, all without any human involvement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in the past 26 years, George and Gracie have stayed mostly the same, and their limitations have become apparent. For an accessibility tool, they can be hard to understand, and compared to today’s voice synthesizing technology, they don’t sound very human.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Why hasn’t BART updated George and Gracie?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie are proprietary to Lucent Technologies, which went out of business in the mid-2000s. The company is no longer around to provide updates, and BART doesn’t have access to the source code to make its own changes. The only thing that can be updated is the text that George and Gracie read.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“BART has really limited funding, and we have to think about the priority,” Trost said. “Things like replacing our trains are more important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12044953\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12044953\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Passengers wait to board BART at Daly City Station in Daly City, on Dec. 4, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie may be a bit outdated, but the system works, so updating it isn’t a top priority, Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s also clear that some Bay Area residents love George and Gracie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the computer game Roblox, users have \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24yglNNGJZ4\">featured their voices\u003c/a> in recreations of the BART system. As players drive or board a virtual BART train, George and Gracie are there announcing: “Now boarding at Embarcadero.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They have also been a topic of discussion on Reddit and YouTube. \u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/Bart/comments/1g130wj/the_voices_of_bart/?solution=4a4ea784b52b90a34a4ea784b52b90a3&js_challenge=1&token=bbbe4bf1c9a2b5160829c4be34da586108bdd3256eb2920042534355492efd5e\">One Reddit user, ‘get-a-mac,’\u003c/a> wrote, “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another with the handle StreetyMcCarface wrote, “Keep George and Gracie, they are iconic.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, Trost said BART \u003cem>is \u003c/em>looking to replace the announcement system at some point, which will force some tough decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sound so dated, because people love them?” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART is currently facing a $376 million deficit, raising big questions about its future. It’s forcing Bay Area residents to consider a world without BART and its role in the culture of the bay, big and small.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Area Rapid Transit. Our dear friend, BART. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For regular riders, your whirs, squeaks and horns are part of the everyday soundtrack of life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">always\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hear you coming. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whir of a train pulling into the station\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We appreciate those timely warnings… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The doors are closing please stand clear of the doors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And how you help us not miss our stop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Arriving at 16th street Mission\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every now and then, someone \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">real\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> pops in\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is BART operation control…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy Tobin, our question asker, has been fixated on one particular sound in the BART ecosystem. A set of announcements …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So sometimes it feels like there’s like a lower kind of male voice that’s like, feels like it’s from like war games, like WOPR kind of style. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wargames Clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This box interprets signals from the computer and turns it into sounds. “Shall we play a game?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And there’s a higher female voice is kind of like 90s Microsoft Sam style.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Microsoft Sam: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, I am Microsoft Sam. I am the most popular voice of Microsoft.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are a variety of voices riders hear throughout BART, some of which are voiced by actual people. But it’s \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">these\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> robotic and synthesized voices that Jimmy can’t stop hearing … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three car Fremont Train now boarding, platform 2.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy is an audio engineer at Google who actually works on synthesized speech models, and these voices really \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">bothered\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> him. One day when he was waiting for a BART train and heard an announcement for a train heading toward the Oakland Airport.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">6-car Blue line train for OAK Airport Dublin in 15 minutes. 6-car Green line train for OAK Airport Barryessa in 19 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I never understood what it was saying. I always thought it was, like, Oasis? And so I was just like, what is this word? And then I look at the board and it’s like, OAK, and I’m like, why didn’t it say Oakland? Like, and so I’m baffled by this thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It felt like such a contradiction to him that \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">this \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">was a voice of the transit system going through the home to the AI Boom… where all the newest tech is being developed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I kept being like, it must be for, like, accessibility or maybe it’s like, it doesn’t have accents or something. And I was just like, I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update. That’s why I came to you guys.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He wants to know the backstory behind these voices – and where they came from.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What has been the decision-making to keep it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious. Today on the show we answer Jimmy’s questions. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor Break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To tell us more about the voices behind BART, we pass it to KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened to the public on Sept. 11, 1972, the world looked different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">1970s music plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Richard Nixon was president of the United States. Elvis Presley’s “Burning Love” was charting. And Bay Area residents flocked to try out the new Bay Area Rapid Transit system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time it only ran for 11 stops — from the McArthur Station in Oakland down to Fremont.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>BART Commercial:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The decade of the 1970s, is the decade of the decade of transportation alternatives…but the first large-scale breakthrough in moving great numbers of people rapidly and economically is the SF Bay Area Rapid Transit system, commonly called BART.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened, there was no live train information for riders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The only way riders knew when a train was coming was by reading a paper schedule. You might hear an announcement for major occurrences like if a train was completely out of service. But if your train was a little delayed, you’d sit and wait– without any information on when it would actually arrive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then in 2000, everything changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART developed a piece of technology called the Advanced Passenger Information System. For the first time, BART knew the live locations of trains throughout the system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riders now got real time information about when their train would arrive..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alicia Trost is the Chief Communications Officer at BART. She told me more about this era.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We had digital screens on the platform that gave you the, what we call ETAs, estimated time arrivals of the train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this was a pretty big deal… but at a time where new legislation mandated accessibility for disabled people— BART had to ask some important questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what if you’re low vision and you can’t see or you’re blind? And so there was this big policy decision to say anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART chose a text-to-speech system to voice these announcements. It came from Lucent Technologies– a telecommunications company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in 2000, this synthesized voice speaking for BART was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a computer with zero emotion, and it’s… every… word… is… spaced… apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voices were tested at different speeds and levels of breathiness. Riders gave input on the versions that were easiest to understand that led to the final version.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The feminine voice of this system was named Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 6 car richmond train now approaching platform 1 \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the masculine voice was named George.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 10 car San Francisco-Milbrae train in 8 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">George and Gracie announce a train’s estimated time of arrival, when a train is actively arriving, and when it is boarding. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2000, this was cutting edge technology– announcements made automatically, without any human involvement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, there were and still also are \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">human voiced\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> announcements when there are big disruptions or delays… but even today, you’ll hear George and Gracie while waiting for a train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So next time you’re in a bart station, really pay attention. You’ll hear George’s voice for one direction only and Gracie’s voice for the opposite direction.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Beat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since 2000, George and Gracie have been the voices we hear on BART platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in the past 26 years, there has been very little change. That’s because the actual text-to-speech system is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">proprietary\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to Lucent Technologies\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And after the demise of the company in the mid 2000s, they haven’t been around to provide any updates. And the kicker is BART doesn’t have access to the source code so they can’t change it. The only thing they can do is change the text that George and Gracie speak. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I asked Alicia Jimmy’s question: Why hasn’t this been replaced ?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because it works and BART has really limited funding and when we go for capital funds, that’s the type of money we use to replace this system we have to think about the priority and things like replacing our trains is more important.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But she says that BART \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>is\u003c/i>\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">aware of the limitations of this technology– they’ve gotten that feedback and they want to replace it in the future. So, they are looking at piloting a new PA system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And part of that is introducing what will be new voices. And it makes me nervous to even say that because this is going to cause great fear and debate among riders and the public… Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sounds so dated, but because people love them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, despite their flaws, it seems like lots of people love these voices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We frequently get asked about George and Gracie, and people tell us they love it. And we also know that there’s a lot of young people who adore the sound and have actually built in Roblox full-on BART systems.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they include recordings George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So as you’re driving or boarding a virtual BART train in the 3D world of roblox, you’ll hear their voices!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of Roblox game\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aside from Roblox, George and Gracie have been a topic of discussion on Reddit and Youtube. And while there are the usual criticisms and suggestions to change it, it’s interesting to see what these voices represent for some people who love them: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One person on reddit with the username ‘Get-a-Mac’ says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another user, COD Gamer 19, says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gracie and George are a part of BART’s history, it wouldn’t feel the same without them, they’re a part of the bay as a whole.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I just know that it’s a popular topic because of how much I see it like in the culture of the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are questions about the future of BART, especially as \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“They face a 376 million dollar budget deficit.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s forcing us to consider the ways BART impacts our lives and culture. And frankly, what it might be like to live without it.These questions go far beyond George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But still, this little piece of technology, stuck in time, reminds us of how quickly things have changed. And maybe, it brings you a little joy –or frustration –iin the monotony of your commute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> George, it’s time to get back to work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You are right as usual, Gracie. Goodbye and thanks for visiting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral. Jimmy Tobin thank you for asking the question. There is no question too big or small for Bay Curious – if you’ve got one that’s been itching in your mind, send it our way over at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> or shoot us an email. We’re at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bart\">Bay Area Rapid Transit\u003c/a> — or BART — was a brand new, cutting-edge transportation system when it opened in 1972. Since then, its reputation has become a bit less high-tech. And while riders hear a variety of voices making announcements throughout the BART system, there are two that sound different — robotic, synthesized voices, one male and one female, that sound like they are from yesteryear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And at least one rider has taken particular note.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never understood what it was saying,” Bay Curious listener Jimmy Tobin said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Jimmy, the voices sound rudimentary, like the voice of 1990s Microsoft Sam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m baffled by this thing,” he said. “I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078618\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078618\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1522\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-1536x1169.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sept. 11, 1972, BART opens to the public. On the first day alone, 15,000 people rode the new trains, despite the fact that they only ran between Fremont and MacArthur Stations in the East Bay. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Bay Area Rapid Transit))\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It seems like a blatant contradiction to him that trains running through communities at the heart of the AI boom sound like they’re from the first computers ever made. He wants to know why these robotic announcements have never been updated.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Passengers used to just wait\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before the late 1990s, BART had no live train information or announcements for passengers. There would occasionally be voiced announcements in the case of major disruptions, but on a regular day, riders would consult a paper schedule to see when a train was supposed to arrive. In the case of delays, riders would wait on the platform, without any information on when the train might actually come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in 2000, BART began using a new piece of technology.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp> The Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) is a data hub that allows BART to calculate and communicate live train locations. For the first time, BART had the ability to share real-time information with riders, like the estimated time of arrival of a train. They initially did this with digital signage on the train platforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The data would later be made publicly available, allowing for other platforms like navigation apps to utilize the live train information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When this technology was rolling out in 2000, BART was also assessing the accessibility of its system for blind and visually impaired riders. BART’s policy became, “Anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say,” said Alicia Trost, chief communications officer at BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In order to translate the digital signs with real-time updates into verbal announcements, BART acquired a text-to-speech system from Lucent Technologies, a telecommunications company. And those synthesized voices that bug Tobin so much, they have names — George and Gracie. Listen closely, and you’ll hear that George announces trains in one direction and the Gracie announces trains in the opposite direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, this was cutting-edge technology — the system could vocalize thousands of announcements per day with real-time information, all without any human involvement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in the past 26 years, George and Gracie have stayed mostly the same, and their limitations have become apparent. For an accessibility tool, they can be hard to understand, and compared to today’s voice synthesizing technology, they don’t sound very human.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Why hasn’t BART updated George and Gracie?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie are proprietary to Lucent Technologies, which went out of business in the mid-2000s. The company is no longer around to provide updates, and BART doesn’t have access to the source code to make its own changes. The only thing that can be updated is the text that George and Gracie read.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“BART has really limited funding, and we have to think about the priority,” Trost said. “Things like replacing our trains are more important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12044953\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12044953\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Passengers wait to board BART at Daly City Station in Daly City, on Dec. 4, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie may be a bit outdated, but the system works, so updating it isn’t a top priority, Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s also clear that some Bay Area residents love George and Gracie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the computer game Roblox, users have \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24yglNNGJZ4\">featured their voices\u003c/a> in recreations of the BART system. As players drive or board a virtual BART train, George and Gracie are there announcing: “Now boarding at Embarcadero.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They have also been a topic of discussion on Reddit and YouTube. \u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/Bart/comments/1g130wj/the_voices_of_bart/?solution=4a4ea784b52b90a34a4ea784b52b90a3&js_challenge=1&token=bbbe4bf1c9a2b5160829c4be34da586108bdd3256eb2920042534355492efd5e\">One Reddit user, ‘get-a-mac,’\u003c/a> wrote, “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another with the handle StreetyMcCarface wrote, “Keep George and Gracie, they are iconic.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, Trost said BART \u003cem>is \u003c/em>looking to replace the announcement system at some point, which will force some tough decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sound so dated, because people love them?” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART is currently facing a $376 million deficit, raising big questions about its future. It’s forcing Bay Area residents to consider a world without BART and its role in the culture of the bay, big and small.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Area Rapid Transit. Our dear friend, BART. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For regular riders, your whirs, squeaks and horns are part of the everyday soundtrack of life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">always\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hear you coming. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whir of a train pulling into the station\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We appreciate those timely warnings… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The doors are closing please stand clear of the doors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And how you help us not miss our stop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Arriving at 16th street Mission\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every now and then, someone \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">real\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> pops in\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is BART operation control…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy Tobin, our question asker, has been fixated on one particular sound in the BART ecosystem. A set of announcements …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So sometimes it feels like there’s like a lower kind of male voice that’s like, feels like it’s from like war games, like WOPR kind of style. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wargames Clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This box interprets signals from the computer and turns it into sounds. “Shall we play a game?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And there’s a higher female voice is kind of like 90s Microsoft Sam style.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Microsoft Sam: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, I am Microsoft Sam. I am the most popular voice of Microsoft.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are a variety of voices riders hear throughout BART, some of which are voiced by actual people. But it’s \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">these\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> robotic and synthesized voices that Jimmy can’t stop hearing … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three car Fremont Train now boarding, platform 2.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy is an audio engineer at Google who actually works on synthesized speech models, and these voices really \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">bothered\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> him. One day when he was waiting for a BART train and heard an announcement for a train heading toward the Oakland Airport.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">6-car Blue line train for OAK Airport Dublin in 15 minutes. 6-car Green line train for OAK Airport Barryessa in 19 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I never understood what it was saying. I always thought it was, like, Oasis? And so I was just like, what is this word? And then I look at the board and it’s like, OAK, and I’m like, why didn’t it say Oakland? Like, and so I’m baffled by this thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It felt like such a contradiction to him that \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">this \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">was a voice of the transit system going through the home to the AI Boom… where all the newest tech is being developed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I kept being like, it must be for, like, accessibility or maybe it’s like, it doesn’t have accents or something. And I was just like, I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update. That’s why I came to you guys.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He wants to know the backstory behind these voices – and where they came from.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What has been the decision-making to keep it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious. Today on the show we answer Jimmy’s questions. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor Break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To tell us more about the voices behind BART, we pass it to KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened to the public on Sept. 11, 1972, the world looked different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">1970s music plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Richard Nixon was president of the United States. Elvis Presley’s “Burning Love” was charting. And Bay Area residents flocked to try out the new Bay Area Rapid Transit system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time it only ran for 11 stops — from the McArthur Station in Oakland down to Fremont.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>BART Commercial:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The decade of the 1970s, is the decade of the decade of transportation alternatives…but the first large-scale breakthrough in moving great numbers of people rapidly and economically is the SF Bay Area Rapid Transit system, commonly called BART.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened, there was no live train information for riders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The only way riders knew when a train was coming was by reading a paper schedule. You might hear an announcement for major occurrences like if a train was completely out of service. But if your train was a little delayed, you’d sit and wait– without any information on when it would actually arrive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then in 2000, everything changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART developed a piece of technology called the Advanced Passenger Information System. For the first time, BART knew the live locations of trains throughout the system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riders now got real time information about when their train would arrive..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alicia Trost is the Chief Communications Officer at BART. She told me more about this era.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We had digital screens on the platform that gave you the, what we call ETAs, estimated time arrivals of the train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this was a pretty big deal… but at a time where new legislation mandated accessibility for disabled people— BART had to ask some important questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what if you’re low vision and you can’t see or you’re blind? And so there was this big policy decision to say anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART chose a text-to-speech system to voice these announcements. It came from Lucent Technologies– a telecommunications company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in 2000, this synthesized voice speaking for BART was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a computer with zero emotion, and it’s… every… word… is… spaced… apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voices were tested at different speeds and levels of breathiness. Riders gave input on the versions that were easiest to understand that led to the final version.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The feminine voice of this system was named Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 6 car richmond train now approaching platform 1 \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the masculine voice was named George.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 10 car San Francisco-Milbrae train in 8 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">George and Gracie announce a train’s estimated time of arrival, when a train is actively arriving, and when it is boarding. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2000, this was cutting edge technology– announcements made automatically, without any human involvement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, there were and still also are \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">human voiced\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> announcements when there are big disruptions or delays… but even today, you’ll hear George and Gracie while waiting for a train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So next time you’re in a bart station, really pay attention. You’ll hear George’s voice for one direction only and Gracie’s voice for the opposite direction.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Beat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since 2000, George and Gracie have been the voices we hear on BART platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in the past 26 years, there has been very little change. That’s because the actual text-to-speech system is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">proprietary\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to Lucent Technologies\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And after the demise of the company in the mid 2000s, they haven’t been around to provide any updates. And the kicker is BART doesn’t have access to the source code so they can’t change it. The only thing they can do is change the text that George and Gracie speak. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I asked Alicia Jimmy’s question: Why hasn’t this been replaced ?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because it works and BART has really limited funding and when we go for capital funds, that’s the type of money we use to replace this system we have to think about the priority and things like replacing our trains is more important.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But she says that BART \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>is\u003c/i>\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">aware of the limitations of this technology– they’ve gotten that feedback and they want to replace it in the future. So, they are looking at piloting a new PA system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And part of that is introducing what will be new voices. And it makes me nervous to even say that because this is going to cause great fear and debate among riders and the public… Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sounds so dated, but because people love them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, despite their flaws, it seems like lots of people love these voices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We frequently get asked about George and Gracie, and people tell us they love it. And we also know that there’s a lot of young people who adore the sound and have actually built in Roblox full-on BART systems.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they include recordings George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So as you’re driving or boarding a virtual BART train in the 3D world of roblox, you’ll hear their voices!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of Roblox game\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aside from Roblox, George and Gracie have been a topic of discussion on Reddit and Youtube. And while there are the usual criticisms and suggestions to change it, it’s interesting to see what these voices represent for some people who love them: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One person on reddit with the username ‘Get-a-Mac’ says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another user, COD Gamer 19, says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gracie and George are a part of BART’s history, it wouldn’t feel the same without them, they’re a part of the bay as a whole.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I just know that it’s a popular topic because of how much I see it like in the culture of the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are questions about the future of BART, especially as \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“They face a 376 million dollar budget deficit.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s forcing us to consider the ways BART impacts our lives and culture. And frankly, what it might be like to live without it.These questions go far beyond George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But still, this little piece of technology, stuck in time, reminds us of how quickly things have changed. And maybe, it brings you a little joy –or frustration –iin the monotony of your commute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> George, it’s time to get back to work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You are right as usual, Gracie. Goodbye and thanks for visiting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral. Jimmy Tobin thank you for asking the question. There is no question too big or small for Bay Curious – if you’ve got one that’s been itching in your mind, send it our way over at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> or shoot us an email. We’re at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "the-bay-areas-famous-redwood-trees-are-struggling",
"title": "The Bay Area's Famous Redwood Trees Are Struggling",
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"headTitle": "The Bay Area’s Famous Redwood Trees Are Struggling | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article originally published in June of 2023. It has been lightly updated for republication.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There were many things Bay Curious listener Julie Menter loved about her Oakland home when she first moved there in 2017. Chief among them were the three towering redwood trees in her backyard, which Menter estimated had been there longer than the house itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last year, one of the trees started to look sick. It had lost almost all of its leaves and, despite Menter watering it, it wasn’t bouncing back. So Menter and her husband decided it had to come down. [baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was so sad,” she said. “And I think it’s sad both for the tree because they’re such beautiful trees, they’re so old and majestic. But also scary to be like, ‘Whoa, this tree is not doing well, the one next to it isn’t, the ones in my neighborhood don’t seem to be doing well.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She’s noticed, not just in her backyard but all around Oakland, redwood trees are looking dry and scraggly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So I’m wondering, is something happening to the redwood trees in the Bay Area? And if so, what is it and is there anything we can do about it?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Magical trees\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To answer Menter’s question, we first have to understand why redwood trees are unique to the Bay Area. Coast redwoods — which we’re focusing on for this story — stretch up and down the Northern California coast and grow no more than 50 miles from the coastline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t think I fully appreciated the redwoods until I went away to school and then came back as an adult,” said Deborah Zierten, an educator with \u003ca href=\"https://www.savetheredwoods.org/\">Save the Redwoods League\u003c/a>. “This was the place that I would hike to clear my head. So it is a very special place for me here.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The quiet, cool, almost prehistoric feel of these redwood forests have provided solace to humans for millennia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The earliest redwood trees existed more than 200 million years ago alongside dinosaurs in the Jurassic period. Their natural range has shrunk a lot in that time, however. Now they live primarily along the coast between Big Sur and the California-Oregon border.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11953536\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11953536\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-800x610.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white archival photo shows loggers standing around and laying in a notch cut into a massive redwood tree as the prepare to fell it. The tree may be around 20 feet in diameter and of unknown height, though it could be as tall as 300 feet.\" width=\"800\" height=\"610\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-800x610.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-1020x778.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging.jpg 1160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">In the early 20th century, redwoods endured a period of intense logging activity. Most of the redwoods you see today have grown since that period, and pale in comparison to the massive size of the trees that once stood along the California coast. \u003ccite>(Ericson Collection/Humboldt State University Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Their range used to extend more broadly, until they endured a period of \u003ca href=\"https://www.savetheredwoods.org/about-us/mission-history/redwoods-timeline/\">severe logging in the late 19th century\u003c/a>. After the Gold Rush, San Francisco was booming and timber was in high demand. Millions of trees were logged and used to build homes and other structures around the Bay Area. Most of the trees here now have grown since then. Even by conservative estimates we’ve lost about 90 percent of what once was. Now, California is down to about 100,000 acres of old growth redwood forest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Perhaps their most identifiable feature — besides their reddish-brown bark — is their height. They can grow up to 300 feet tall, a feat that requires some teamwork.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the things that makes redwoods so unique is that they actually hold hands with their roots underneath the ground, and that’s how they’re able to grow to be so tall and not fall down, is that they help each other,” said Zierten.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Their shallow but wide root systems allow them to grow to be the tallest trees on the planet. And the intertwining of their roots helps them exchange nutrients with one another. Their trunks can grow to be immense, up to nearly 30 feet in diameter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Redwoods can live a very long time, too. In fact, some of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/shirley/sec11.htm\">oldest coastal redwoods\u003c/a> today were alive during the Roman Empire. Those stands of \u003ca href=\"https://sempervirens.org/news/old-growth-what-it-means-and-why-it-matters/#:~:text=What%20Is%20The,redwood%E2%80%99s%20highest%20reaches.\">old-growth redwoods\u003c/a>, which now account for only 5% of all redwood trees, can \u003ca href=\"https://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=26107#\">store more carbon\u003c/a> than any other forest on the planet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They have unique ways of reproducing. They produce seeds, like any other tree, but they can also sprout new trees from their roots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So, often you will find them in circles that we call fairy rings. Because if a parent tree gets hurt or injured, it will send out these baby sprouts into these circles. And it’s kind of like a little family growing,” said Zierten.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11953639\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11953639\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-800x845.jpg\" alt=\"A child dressing in a redwood tree costumes stands next to a woman in a bright blue sweater. In the background, a redwood forest is visible.\" width=\"800\" height=\"845\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-800x845.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1020x1077.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-160x169.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1455x1536.jpg 1455w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1940x2048.jpg 1940w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1920x2027.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Deborah Zierten teaches a group of fifth graders about redwood trees in Reinhardt Redwood Regional Park in Oakland. \u003ccite>(Dana Cronin/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Redwoods prefer cool, moist climates, which is why they’re now primarily found in Northern California. In the summer months, when there’s a lack of rainfall, redwood trees rely on another iconic California phenomenon: coastal fog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s almost like a sponge sucking in that water,” Zierten said. “Then when their needles get full, also like a sponge, any of that excess water will drip to the ground. And it’s almost as if they’re creating their own rain.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They’ve adapted to other characteristics of this region, including wildfires. Take the 2020 CZU Lightning Complex fires, for example, which burned through most of Big Basin Redwoods State Park near Santa Cruz. Three years later, that forest is green again and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11835124/some-good-news-many-of-big-basins-ancient-redwoods-appear-to-have-survived\">the old-growth redwood trees there are still standing strong\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now many redwood forests — including 80% of the surviving old-growth trees — are protected either by state and local governments or nonprofits, like Zierten’s Save the Redwoods League.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>New challenges\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>It’s not just Menter’s imagination: Redwood trees are indeed struggling across the Bay Area.[emailsignup newslettername=\"baycurious\" align=\"right\"]“If you look up now, in most urban areas, I think everybody can pretty much see that there’s some tops that are dying back. There’s a lot of brown foliage in the crowns of these trees,” said \u003ca href=\"https://ib.berkeley.edu/people/faculty/dawsont\">Todd Dawson\u003c/a>, an environmental scientist at UC Berkeley who has been studying redwoods for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One reason for that suffering is urbanization and the subsequent proliferation of concrete and pollution. Roadways and sidewalks, in particular, are impinging on redwoods’ root systems, essentially suffocating them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[Concrete has] a very, very negative impact on the ability of that tree to get the water it needs, get the nutrients it needs,” said Dawson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to urbanization, climate change is wreaking havoc on redwood trees’ ideal growing conditions. Coastal fog, for example, upon which redwood trees rely for water, is on the decline. In fact, since the 1950s, Dawson said, fog has declined about 30% during the summertime, when redwoods really need it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11953610\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11953610\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-800x1067.jpg\" alt=\"Tall, bright green redwood trees and ferns surround a hiking path. The air is misty and grey.\" width=\"800\" height=\"1067\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-800x1067.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-1020x1360.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-160x213.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-1152x1536.jpg 1152w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-1536x2048.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-scaled.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A foggy day in Joaquin Miller Park in the Oakland hills. In the summertime, redwoods ‘drink’ the coastal fog. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>That decline, coupled with periods of severe drought in California, is putting a lot of stress on the trees — especially giant sequoias, another type of redwood that lives mostly in the Sierra Nevada. Thousands of trees there have died due to a lack of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The water deficit itself didn’t really kill all those trees,” Dawson said. “It weakened them in a way where other pests and pathogens got in there and basically wiped them out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to a lack of water, more intense fires are also affecting redwoods. Though they have adapted to fire over the centuries, they can’t handle the extreme fires we’re seeing now caused by climate change and inadequate forest management.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All in all, Dawson said redwood forests are struggling along their perimeters. As the wildland-urban interface stretches farther and farther into the wild, redwood trees are increasingly exposed to human impacts. They’re losing their buffer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think we’re going to see a patchier world,” Dawson said. “And that’s really disappointing and concerning for me because we sit at the heart of that. Humans are really the ones that are in control and are having the negative impacts that we now see.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What can we do?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>As Menter asked, is there anything we can do to save the redwoods?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for backyard redwood trees, Dawson said irrigation might work, but it’s more of a Band-Aid solution because “the trees require so much water. They also require pretty special microclimates, meaning that they like it cooler, they like these moist, foggy summers,” he said, “and I think you can’t really recreate those conditions as a person.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The problems redwood trees are facing now are much more systemic, said Dawson, and that’s how we should approach solutions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One way to help protect redwood forests is by getting them in the hands of governments and nonprofits, which Dawson said is critical to ensuring the trees’ survival here in Northern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The forests are just so special, these big cathedrals with these amazing, gigantic trees. There’s just nothing like that. And I think anybody who’s ever walked through a forest for the first time just is in awe of what a special place and what a special feel it has. So I’m really concerned about them and I’d love to see those forests protected in perpetuity,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> This is Bay Curious. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Have you ever paused a moment, to fully take in a redwood tree? Stared up at its towering trunk. Cupping around a single ridge of its massive bark. Inhaling that warm, woody, slightly sweet scent…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious listener Christy Dundon has.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christy Dundon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Back when I was in high school, just a long time ago, I worked for the Alameda Recreation and Park Department and we had a day camp and we would take kids up to the Redwood Regional Park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The redwoods in the park now are mostly younger, second-growth redwoods – but there are signs left of the old growth redwoods that once stood.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christy Dundon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I remember showing them the stumps that were there, which were pretty big with usually trees in a circle around them … sometimes I’d have them lie down and it was, you know, its diameter was wider than they are tall. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Seeing these stumps got Christy wondering about when these trees were cut down and why. And also how many redwood forests once stood in the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christy Dundon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I would love to know how extensive it was, what, I mean, did they just somebody got the idea this is where we’re going to get our lumber, and then how much was actually cut down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> For this story on old growth redwoods, we called up an old friend, Daniel Potter. Hi, Daniel!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Olivia, hi!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Daniel has done a few stories for us on natural history and trees… And he even wrote a bit on redwoods for the Bay Curious book. (which, ahem, is still available wherever books are sold.) So Daniel, redwoods. They come in a few varieties.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Right. They’re a phenomenon almost exclusive to California. By that I mean there are three species—a somewhat shorter one from central China—and then the two familiar to Californians. Inland, we have the massive Sierra redwoods, also known as giant sequoias, and the kind we’ll be focusing on today, which is actually even taller.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That’s the coast redwood, or the one a lot of folks just call… redwoods.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The scientific name is Sequoia sempervirens. These trees can grow taller than the Statue of Liberty, including the pedestal and torch. Taller than a football field is long. And they can live around 2,000 years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And true to their name, you tend to find them along the coast, in the fog belt, from Monterey County up to around the Oregon border.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> One of my favorite Bay Area spots for wow’ing out-of-towners with them has always been Muir Woods, in Marin County. That’s one of the few places in the region where people left old redwoods standing in the last few centuries.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So there were once more? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So many more! Logging of the redwoods started long before the Gold Rush, in the time of Spanish settlers and Russian traders… but the Gold Rush really kicked it into high gear. For 19th-century people building a city like San Francisco in a hurry, old redwood was ideal. In his book Trees in Paradise, historian Jared Farmer writes “it was easy to work with, hard to wreck. No other lumber matched its combination of lightness, evenness, and durability.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> In addition to the stumps Christy saw, you also see little hints of this logging history around. ..Like down on the Peninsula, where you’ll find ‘Redwood City.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yes! Sawyers would cut down redwoods on the east side of the Santa Cruz mountains, and use the port there to float that wood up toward a growing San Francisco. In his book, Farmer writes “by the mid 1850s, San Francisco had exhausted the easy-to-reach redwood, including pocket stands in the Berkeley Hills.” Loggers then worked their way north up the coast. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Okay, let’s fast forward to after the 1906 earthquake and fire. The city is devastated, people need to rebuild, concrete and steel aren’t yet ubiquitous for construction. What happens? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> People cut down even more trees. They constructed tens of thousands of buildings in the decade after the quake, almost all of them with wood frames. Redwood was the rule—literally. Officials believed using redwood had kept the fire from being even worse, so afterward, builders had to get a permit to use anything else. The demand was epic, on the order of hundreds of millions of square feet, an inch thick.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So our question-asker wanted some sense of what was lost here. And it sounds like… a lot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, exactly how much depends a little on whether you’re just counting the heavy stands of redwoods, like the awesome cathedral stands up toward the North Coast, or also the spots where they’re more mixed in with other trees. But ballpark, before the Gold Rush, there were 1 or 2 million acres of old growth redwood forests, whereas now we’re down to less than 100 thousand acres. So even by a conservative estimate, we’ve lost about 90% of what once was.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> 90%! And most of it now makes up the skeleton of San Francisco?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, it’s a weird way to think about it, isn’t it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Well… on the bright side, at least there’s still some standing for us to visit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah! My wife and I did the iconic California road trip for our honeymoon a few years ago, and visiting the redwoods up along the Avenue of the Giants was sublime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Mm! Daniel Potter… Longtime friend of the show, now making a podcast called Bug Note about the wiggly, wild, weird world of bugs. Find it on YouTube. Daniel – thank you as always.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Olivia, a pleasure as always.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> When we return a deep dive on what makes Coast Redwoods so special, and how they’re fairing in the age of climate change. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor Message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We have received a bevy of listener questions about redwoods over the years. One came from Julie Menter. She and her husband moved into a house in Oakland in 2017. There were lots of things they loved about their new home, but especially the three big redwood trees in the backyard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Menter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It feels like it’s a really big part of the identity to me of the city of Oakland. Like if you look at the hills and the trees…being able to go in nature while being in a city feels really important to me for my mental health and balance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Last year, Julie started to worry about the trees. One of them had lost almost all of its leaves and, despite watering it, it wasn’t bouncing back. It had to come down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Menter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s so sad. And I think it’s sad both for the tree because, you know, they’re such beautiful trees, they’re so old and majestic. But also scary to be like, “Whoa, this tree is not doing well, the one next to it isn’t, the ones in my neighborhood don’t seem to be doing well.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Julie’s noticed not just in her backyard, but all around Oakland, redwood trees don’t look so good. Around her neighborhood… off highways… really all over the East Bay, Julie has noticed the trees looking dry and scraggly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Menter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So I’m wondering, is something happening to the redwood trees in the Bay Area? And if so, what is it and is there anything we can do about it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For this next story, we’re spending more time with California’s state tree: the coast redwood. We’ll dig into why it’s unique to this area, what makes it so special and also how it’s adapting to challenges like climate change and urbanization. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED’s Dana Cronin takes it from here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sound of walking through a forest \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s a really special feeling I get every time I walk through a redwood forest. My mind goes quiet, the only audible sound coming from the crunch of my footsteps. The temperature is always perfect; even on the hottest day, it’s still cool among the trees. And the smell.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin (in scene)\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: It smells so good. There’s just no, like, even just stepping outside of my car in the parking lot, I was like (breathes in, breathes out) It’s just so good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m in the middle of the Roberts Redwood Recreational forest in the Oakland hills… hiking with Deborah Ziertan, who works for Save the Redwoods League. She’s gonna help me teach you all about redwood trees and why they’re unique to our region. Then, later on, we’ll get to the heart of Julie’s question … what’s happening to them? And just a note – for this episode we’ll mostly focus on coastal redwoods, which grow no more than 50 miles from the coastline. Now, Deborah grew up here in Oakland and visited these redwoods frequently as a kid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I don’t think I fully appreciated the redwoods until I went away to school and then came back as an adult. And this was the place that I would hike to clear my head. And these were the forests that I came to. And so it is a very special place for me here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Deborah has now dedicated her life to these trees. She’s an educator with Save the Redwoods League. Her job is to teach school-aged kids about them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sounds of children in a forest\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Good morning students!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Students:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Good morning.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I tagged along recently with Deborah, as she guided about thirty fifth graders from a local elementary school through the Reinhardt Redwood Regional Park. The students are spread out across three wooden picnic tables, fidgeting in their seats. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Can I have everyone’s eyes up here? Ok. Will everyone look up and take a look? We are in a little redwood grove. So these are all redwood trees. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After setting a few ground rules… no touching plants… be quiet while others are talking… Miss Deborah — as they call her — launches into the lesson. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Do you know anything about redwood trees at all? Raise your hand if you know anything about redwoods. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A student’s hand shoots up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yes. They are really tall. They are. Redwoods are the tallest tree in the whole entire world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwood trees can grow more than 300 feet tall. That’s taller than a 30-story skyscraper. And not only are they the tallest tree in the world, they’re also among the biggest. Their trucks can grow nearly 30 feet wide. So, how are they able to get so big?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So everyone do this with your arms. It’s okay if you kind of lightly touch your neighbors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Deborah holds her arms out straight to the sides, like a scarecrow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of the things that makes redwoods so unique is that they actually hold hands with their roots underneath the ground, and that’s how they’re able to grow to be so tall and not fall down is that they help each other. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwood roots are shallow and extend outward instead of down. Their roots extend out almost as far as the tree is tall … and they essentially hold each other up. In addition to being really big… redwoods can also live a very long time… like more than 2,000 years. That means some coastal redwoods today were alive during the Roman Empire. Those old-growth redwoods, which now only account for 5 percent of all redwood trees, can store more carbon than any other forest on the planet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So we are pretty lucky to have redwood trees here in Oakland. And people travel from all over the world to come and see redwood trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Magical sounding music\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwood trees also have unique ways of reproducing. They produce seeds, like any other tree, but they can also sprout new trees from their roots. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So often redwood trees, you will find them in circles that we call fairy rings. Because if a parent tree gets hurt or injured, it will send out these baby sprouts into these circles. And it’s kind of like a little family growing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They’re basically clones of their parents. That’s why you rarely see redwood trees standing alone, and more often see them together in a circle formation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Deborah tells the students we can learn a lot from redwood trees. They exist in communities and rely on each other for support. They have hard exteriors that protect them from things like wildfires, but they’re soft on the inside. Deborah says… they’re not so different from us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The earliest redwood trees existed more than 200 million years ago… alongside dinosaurs in the Jurassic period. Their natural range has shrunk a lot in that time… now they mostly stretch up and down the northern California coast… as far north as the Oregon border and down to about Big Sur. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Their distribution tracks with another iconic California phenomenon… coastal fog. So, in the summer months, when there’s a lack of rainfall, redwood trees essentially drink the fog.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s almost like a sponge sucking in that water. And then when their needles get full, also like a sponge, any of that excess water will drip to the ground. And it’s almost as if they’re creating their own rain. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And they’ve adapted to this region in other ways, too. They’re highly adapted to fire. Take the 2020 CZU Lightning Complex fire, for example, which burned through most of Big Basin Redwoods near Santa Cruz. Three years later, that forest is green again… and the old-growth redwood trees there are still standing strong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwoods also survived a period of severe logging in the late 18-hundreds when, after the Gold Rush, San Francisco was booming and timber was in high demand. Many trees didn’t survive, though. In fact, most of the trees now living in the Oakland hills are ones that have grown since that period of logging… young, by redwoods standards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Luckily, a movement was underway to protect redwood forests. Save the Redwoods League… where Deborah works… was founded in 1918… and helped to accelerate the preservation of redwood trees across Northern California. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> People started to see the value in recreation and see the value in these trees not as lumber, but for health and wellness and for preservation purposes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music in \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But now they’re facing new challenges. As our question-asker Julie noticed… Redwood trees in the Bay Area are struggling.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> If you walk and you look up now, in most urban areas, I think everybody can pretty much see that, you know, there’s some tops that are dying back. There’s a lot of, you know, brown foliage in the crowns of these trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s Todd Dawson. He’s an environmental scientist and professor at UC Berkeley and has been studying redwood trees for decades. We met up on a foggy morning at the UC Berkeley campus… home to many unhealthy-looking redwood trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> See the thinning crowns of the one right out there in the distance? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> There you go. And you just see that over and over and over, repeated in so many places. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Todd says trees are suffering all over the Bay Area… even up through Santa Rosa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And, there are two main reasons for that suffering. Let’s take them one at a time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The first reason is urbanization. The Bay Area has gone through a drastic transformation over the last century…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And with all the concrete and all the pollution that’s associated with urban sprawl, the trees are suffering. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s mostly because sidewalks and roadways are impinging on redwoods’ root systems. Remember how their roots extend out really wide?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Here we are standing ten feet away from a redwood tree on a concrete sidewalk. And we’ve set concrete on top of a big part of the root system. And so it’s really going to have a very, very negative impact on the ability of that tree to get the water it needs, get the nutrients it needs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re basically suffocating them. And on top of that, we have reason number two… climate change… which is impacting redwood trees in different ways. That fog that redwoods drink in, well, it turns out it’s on the decline. In fact, since the 1950’s it’s declined about 30% during the summertime… when redwoods really need it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That decline, coupled with periods of severe drought in California, is putting a lot of stress on the trees. Especially Giant Sequoias… another type of redwood that mostly lives in the Sierra Nevada. Thousands of trees there have died due to a lack of water. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The water deficit itself didn’t really kill all those trees. It weakened them in a way where other pests and pathogens got in there and basically wiped them out like beetles, fungi, other things like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In addition to a lack of water… more intense fires are also impacting those trees. Although they have adapted to fire over the centuries… they can’t handle the extreme fires we’re seeing now caused by climate change and bad forest management. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All in all, Todd says redwood forests are struggling along their perimeters. As the wildland-urban interface stretches further and further into the wild… redwood trees are increasingly exposed to human impacts. They’re losing their buffer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I think that’s the future, is we’re going to see a patchier world. And that’s really disappointing and concerning for me because, you know, we sit at the heart of that. Humans are really the ones that are in control and are having the negative impacts that we now see. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now, I think we’ve answered most of Julie’s questions… except for one. What can we do about it? Todd has a couple thoughts on that. First, Julie, regarding your backyard redwood trees… Todd says you can try watering them…. But…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The trees require so much water. They also require pretty special microclimates, meaning that they like it cooler. They like these moist, foggy summers like we’re seeing today. You know, And I think you can’t really recreate those conditions as a person. Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Unfortunately, he says, irrigation is a band-aid solution at best. Because the problems redwood trees are facing now are much more systemic. And that’s how we need to think about solutions, Todd says.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of those solutions is to protect redwood forests by getting them in the hands of governments and nonprofits… like Deborah’s Save the Redwoods League. Todd says that work is critical to ensuring the trees’ survival here in Northern California. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Whimsical music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The forests are just so special, these big cathedrals with these amazing and gigantic trees that there’s just nothing like that. And I think anybody who’s ever walked through a forest for the first time just is in awe of what a special place and what a special feel it has. And so I’m really concerned about them and I want to keep working with them and I’d love to see those forests protected, you know, in perpetuity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Protecting them now means securing their existence for our kids, grandkids… and maybe even humans two THOUSAND years from now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was KQED’s Dana Cronin.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at KQED. We are a member-supported public media station and we really need your help. Give today at KQED.org/donate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a fantastic week. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article originally published in June of 2023. It has been lightly updated for republication.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There were many things Bay Curious listener Julie Menter loved about her Oakland home when she first moved there in 2017. Chief among them were the three towering redwood trees in her backyard, which Menter estimated had been there longer than the house itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last year, one of the trees started to look sick. It had lost almost all of its leaves and, despite Menter watering it, it wasn’t bouncing back. So Menter and her husband decided it had to come down. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was so sad,” she said. “And I think it’s sad both for the tree because they’re such beautiful trees, they’re so old and majestic. But also scary to be like, ‘Whoa, this tree is not doing well, the one next to it isn’t, the ones in my neighborhood don’t seem to be doing well.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She’s noticed, not just in her backyard but all around Oakland, redwood trees are looking dry and scraggly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So I’m wondering, is something happening to the redwood trees in the Bay Area? And if so, what is it and is there anything we can do about it?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Magical trees\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To answer Menter’s question, we first have to understand why redwood trees are unique to the Bay Area. Coast redwoods — which we’re focusing on for this story — stretch up and down the Northern California coast and grow no more than 50 miles from the coastline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t think I fully appreciated the redwoods until I went away to school and then came back as an adult,” said Deborah Zierten, an educator with \u003ca href=\"https://www.savetheredwoods.org/\">Save the Redwoods League\u003c/a>. “This was the place that I would hike to clear my head. So it is a very special place for me here.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The quiet, cool, almost prehistoric feel of these redwood forests have provided solace to humans for millennia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The earliest redwood trees existed more than 200 million years ago alongside dinosaurs in the Jurassic period. Their natural range has shrunk a lot in that time, however. Now they live primarily along the coast between Big Sur and the California-Oregon border.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11953536\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11953536\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-800x610.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white archival photo shows loggers standing around and laying in a notch cut into a massive redwood tree as the prepare to fell it. The tree may be around 20 feet in diameter and of unknown height, though it could be as tall as 300 feet.\" width=\"800\" height=\"610\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-800x610.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-1020x778.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging.jpg 1160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">In the early 20th century, redwoods endured a period of intense logging activity. Most of the redwoods you see today have grown since that period, and pale in comparison to the massive size of the trees that once stood along the California coast. \u003ccite>(Ericson Collection/Humboldt State University Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Their range used to extend more broadly, until they endured a period of \u003ca href=\"https://www.savetheredwoods.org/about-us/mission-history/redwoods-timeline/\">severe logging in the late 19th century\u003c/a>. After the Gold Rush, San Francisco was booming and timber was in high demand. Millions of trees were logged and used to build homes and other structures around the Bay Area. Most of the trees here now have grown since then. Even by conservative estimates we’ve lost about 90 percent of what once was. Now, California is down to about 100,000 acres of old growth redwood forest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Perhaps their most identifiable feature — besides their reddish-brown bark — is their height. They can grow up to 300 feet tall, a feat that requires some teamwork.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the things that makes redwoods so unique is that they actually hold hands with their roots underneath the ground, and that’s how they’re able to grow to be so tall and not fall down, is that they help each other,” said Zierten.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Their shallow but wide root systems allow them to grow to be the tallest trees on the planet. And the intertwining of their roots helps them exchange nutrients with one another. Their trunks can grow to be immense, up to nearly 30 feet in diameter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Redwoods can live a very long time, too. In fact, some of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/shirley/sec11.htm\">oldest coastal redwoods\u003c/a> today were alive during the Roman Empire. Those stands of \u003ca href=\"https://sempervirens.org/news/old-growth-what-it-means-and-why-it-matters/#:~:text=What%20Is%20The,redwood%E2%80%99s%20highest%20reaches.\">old-growth redwoods\u003c/a>, which now account for only 5% of all redwood trees, can \u003ca href=\"https://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=26107#\">store more carbon\u003c/a> than any other forest on the planet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They have unique ways of reproducing. They produce seeds, like any other tree, but they can also sprout new trees from their roots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So, often you will find them in circles that we call fairy rings. Because if a parent tree gets hurt or injured, it will send out these baby sprouts into these circles. And it’s kind of like a little family growing,” said Zierten.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11953639\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11953639\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-800x845.jpg\" alt=\"A child dressing in a redwood tree costumes stands next to a woman in a bright blue sweater. In the background, a redwood forest is visible.\" width=\"800\" height=\"845\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-800x845.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1020x1077.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-160x169.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1455x1536.jpg 1455w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1940x2048.jpg 1940w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1920x2027.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Deborah Zierten teaches a group of fifth graders about redwood trees in Reinhardt Redwood Regional Park in Oakland. \u003ccite>(Dana Cronin/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Redwoods prefer cool, moist climates, which is why they’re now primarily found in Northern California. In the summer months, when there’s a lack of rainfall, redwood trees rely on another iconic California phenomenon: coastal fog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s almost like a sponge sucking in that water,” Zierten said. “Then when their needles get full, also like a sponge, any of that excess water will drip to the ground. And it’s almost as if they’re creating their own rain.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They’ve adapted to other characteristics of this region, including wildfires. Take the 2020 CZU Lightning Complex fires, for example, which burned through most of Big Basin Redwoods State Park near Santa Cruz. Three years later, that forest is green again and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11835124/some-good-news-many-of-big-basins-ancient-redwoods-appear-to-have-survived\">the old-growth redwood trees there are still standing strong\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now many redwood forests — including 80% of the surviving old-growth trees — are protected either by state and local governments or nonprofits, like Zierten’s Save the Redwoods League.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>New challenges\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>It’s not just Menter’s imagination: Redwood trees are indeed struggling across the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“If you look up now, in most urban areas, I think everybody can pretty much see that there’s some tops that are dying back. There’s a lot of brown foliage in the crowns of these trees,” said \u003ca href=\"https://ib.berkeley.edu/people/faculty/dawsont\">Todd Dawson\u003c/a>, an environmental scientist at UC Berkeley who has been studying redwoods for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One reason for that suffering is urbanization and the subsequent proliferation of concrete and pollution. Roadways and sidewalks, in particular, are impinging on redwoods’ root systems, essentially suffocating them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[Concrete has] a very, very negative impact on the ability of that tree to get the water it needs, get the nutrients it needs,” said Dawson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to urbanization, climate change is wreaking havoc on redwood trees’ ideal growing conditions. Coastal fog, for example, upon which redwood trees rely for water, is on the decline. In fact, since the 1950s, Dawson said, fog has declined about 30% during the summertime, when redwoods really need it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11953610\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11953610\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-800x1067.jpg\" alt=\"Tall, bright green redwood trees and ferns surround a hiking path. The air is misty and grey.\" width=\"800\" height=\"1067\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-800x1067.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-1020x1360.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-160x213.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-1152x1536.jpg 1152w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-1536x2048.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-scaled.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A foggy day in Joaquin Miller Park in the Oakland hills. In the summertime, redwoods ‘drink’ the coastal fog. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>That decline, coupled with periods of severe drought in California, is putting a lot of stress on the trees — especially giant sequoias, another type of redwood that lives mostly in the Sierra Nevada. Thousands of trees there have died due to a lack of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The water deficit itself didn’t really kill all those trees,” Dawson said. “It weakened them in a way where other pests and pathogens got in there and basically wiped them out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to a lack of water, more intense fires are also affecting redwoods. Though they have adapted to fire over the centuries, they can’t handle the extreme fires we’re seeing now caused by climate change and inadequate forest management.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All in all, Dawson said redwood forests are struggling along their perimeters. As the wildland-urban interface stretches farther and farther into the wild, redwood trees are increasingly exposed to human impacts. They’re losing their buffer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think we’re going to see a patchier world,” Dawson said. “And that’s really disappointing and concerning for me because we sit at the heart of that. Humans are really the ones that are in control and are having the negative impacts that we now see.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What can we do?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>As Menter asked, is there anything we can do to save the redwoods?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for backyard redwood trees, Dawson said irrigation might work, but it’s more of a Band-Aid solution because “the trees require so much water. They also require pretty special microclimates, meaning that they like it cooler, they like these moist, foggy summers,” he said, “and I think you can’t really recreate those conditions as a person.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The problems redwood trees are facing now are much more systemic, said Dawson, and that’s how we should approach solutions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One way to help protect redwood forests is by getting them in the hands of governments and nonprofits, which Dawson said is critical to ensuring the trees’ survival here in Northern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The forests are just so special, these big cathedrals with these amazing, gigantic trees. There’s just nothing like that. And I think anybody who’s ever walked through a forest for the first time just is in awe of what a special place and what a special feel it has. So I’m really concerned about them and I’d love to see those forests protected in perpetuity,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> This is Bay Curious. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Have you ever paused a moment, to fully take in a redwood tree? Stared up at its towering trunk. Cupping around a single ridge of its massive bark. Inhaling that warm, woody, slightly sweet scent…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious listener Christy Dundon has.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christy Dundon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Back when I was in high school, just a long time ago, I worked for the Alameda Recreation and Park Department and we had a day camp and we would take kids up to the Redwood Regional Park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The redwoods in the park now are mostly younger, second-growth redwoods – but there are signs left of the old growth redwoods that once stood.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christy Dundon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I remember showing them the stumps that were there, which were pretty big with usually trees in a circle around them … sometimes I’d have them lie down and it was, you know, its diameter was wider than they are tall. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Seeing these stumps got Christy wondering about when these trees were cut down and why. And also how many redwood forests once stood in the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christy Dundon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I would love to know how extensive it was, what, I mean, did they just somebody got the idea this is where we’re going to get our lumber, and then how much was actually cut down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> For this story on old growth redwoods, we called up an old friend, Daniel Potter. Hi, Daniel!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Olivia, hi!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Daniel has done a few stories for us on natural history and trees… And he even wrote a bit on redwoods for the Bay Curious book. (which, ahem, is still available wherever books are sold.) So Daniel, redwoods. They come in a few varieties.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Right. They’re a phenomenon almost exclusive to California. By that I mean there are three species—a somewhat shorter one from central China—and then the two familiar to Californians. Inland, we have the massive Sierra redwoods, also known as giant sequoias, and the kind we’ll be focusing on today, which is actually even taller.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That’s the coast redwood, or the one a lot of folks just call… redwoods.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The scientific name is Sequoia sempervirens. These trees can grow taller than the Statue of Liberty, including the pedestal and torch. Taller than a football field is long. And they can live around 2,000 years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And true to their name, you tend to find them along the coast, in the fog belt, from Monterey County up to around the Oregon border.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> One of my favorite Bay Area spots for wow’ing out-of-towners with them has always been Muir Woods, in Marin County. That’s one of the few places in the region where people left old redwoods standing in the last few centuries.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So there were once more? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So many more! Logging of the redwoods started long before the Gold Rush, in the time of Spanish settlers and Russian traders… but the Gold Rush really kicked it into high gear. For 19th-century people building a city like San Francisco in a hurry, old redwood was ideal. In his book Trees in Paradise, historian Jared Farmer writes “it was easy to work with, hard to wreck. No other lumber matched its combination of lightness, evenness, and durability.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> In addition to the stumps Christy saw, you also see little hints of this logging history around. ..Like down on the Peninsula, where you’ll find ‘Redwood City.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yes! Sawyers would cut down redwoods on the east side of the Santa Cruz mountains, and use the port there to float that wood up toward a growing San Francisco. In his book, Farmer writes “by the mid 1850s, San Francisco had exhausted the easy-to-reach redwood, including pocket stands in the Berkeley Hills.” Loggers then worked their way north up the coast. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Okay, let’s fast forward to after the 1906 earthquake and fire. The city is devastated, people need to rebuild, concrete and steel aren’t yet ubiquitous for construction. What happens? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> People cut down even more trees. They constructed tens of thousands of buildings in the decade after the quake, almost all of them with wood frames. Redwood was the rule—literally. Officials believed using redwood had kept the fire from being even worse, so afterward, builders had to get a permit to use anything else. The demand was epic, on the order of hundreds of millions of square feet, an inch thick.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So our question-asker wanted some sense of what was lost here. And it sounds like… a lot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, exactly how much depends a little on whether you’re just counting the heavy stands of redwoods, like the awesome cathedral stands up toward the North Coast, or also the spots where they’re more mixed in with other trees. But ballpark, before the Gold Rush, there were 1 or 2 million acres of old growth redwood forests, whereas now we’re down to less than 100 thousand acres. So even by a conservative estimate, we’ve lost about 90% of what once was.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> 90%! And most of it now makes up the skeleton of San Francisco?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, it’s a weird way to think about it, isn’t it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Well… on the bright side, at least there’s still some standing for us to visit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah! My wife and I did the iconic California road trip for our honeymoon a few years ago, and visiting the redwoods up along the Avenue of the Giants was sublime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Mm! Daniel Potter… Longtime friend of the show, now making a podcast called Bug Note about the wiggly, wild, weird world of bugs. Find it on YouTube. Daniel – thank you as always.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Olivia, a pleasure as always.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> When we return a deep dive on what makes Coast Redwoods so special, and how they’re fairing in the age of climate change. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor Message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We have received a bevy of listener questions about redwoods over the years. One came from Julie Menter. She and her husband moved into a house in Oakland in 2017. There were lots of things they loved about their new home, but especially the three big redwood trees in the backyard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Menter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It feels like it’s a really big part of the identity to me of the city of Oakland. Like if you look at the hills and the trees…being able to go in nature while being in a city feels really important to me for my mental health and balance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Last year, Julie started to worry about the trees. One of them had lost almost all of its leaves and, despite watering it, it wasn’t bouncing back. It had to come down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Menter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s so sad. And I think it’s sad both for the tree because, you know, they’re such beautiful trees, they’re so old and majestic. But also scary to be like, “Whoa, this tree is not doing well, the one next to it isn’t, the ones in my neighborhood don’t seem to be doing well.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Julie’s noticed not just in her backyard, but all around Oakland, redwood trees don’t look so good. Around her neighborhood… off highways… really all over the East Bay, Julie has noticed the trees looking dry and scraggly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Menter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So I’m wondering, is something happening to the redwood trees in the Bay Area? And if so, what is it and is there anything we can do about it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For this next story, we’re spending more time with California’s state tree: the coast redwood. We’ll dig into why it’s unique to this area, what makes it so special and also how it’s adapting to challenges like climate change and urbanization. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED’s Dana Cronin takes it from here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sound of walking through a forest \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s a really special feeling I get every time I walk through a redwood forest. My mind goes quiet, the only audible sound coming from the crunch of my footsteps. The temperature is always perfect; even on the hottest day, it’s still cool among the trees. And the smell.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin (in scene)\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: It smells so good. There’s just no, like, even just stepping outside of my car in the parking lot, I was like (breathes in, breathes out) It’s just so good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m in the middle of the Roberts Redwood Recreational forest in the Oakland hills… hiking with Deborah Ziertan, who works for Save the Redwoods League. She’s gonna help me teach you all about redwood trees and why they’re unique to our region. Then, later on, we’ll get to the heart of Julie’s question … what’s happening to them? And just a note – for this episode we’ll mostly focus on coastal redwoods, which grow no more than 50 miles from the coastline. Now, Deborah grew up here in Oakland and visited these redwoods frequently as a kid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I don’t think I fully appreciated the redwoods until I went away to school and then came back as an adult. And this was the place that I would hike to clear my head. And these were the forests that I came to. And so it is a very special place for me here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Deborah has now dedicated her life to these trees. She’s an educator with Save the Redwoods League. Her job is to teach school-aged kids about them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sounds of children in a forest\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Good morning students!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Students:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Good morning.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I tagged along recently with Deborah, as she guided about thirty fifth graders from a local elementary school through the Reinhardt Redwood Regional Park. The students are spread out across three wooden picnic tables, fidgeting in their seats. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Can I have everyone’s eyes up here? Ok. Will everyone look up and take a look? We are in a little redwood grove. So these are all redwood trees. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After setting a few ground rules… no touching plants… be quiet while others are talking… Miss Deborah — as they call her — launches into the lesson. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Do you know anything about redwood trees at all? Raise your hand if you know anything about redwoods. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A student’s hand shoots up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yes. They are really tall. They are. Redwoods are the tallest tree in the whole entire world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwood trees can grow more than 300 feet tall. That’s taller than a 30-story skyscraper. And not only are they the tallest tree in the world, they’re also among the biggest. Their trucks can grow nearly 30 feet wide. So, how are they able to get so big?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So everyone do this with your arms. It’s okay if you kind of lightly touch your neighbors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Deborah holds her arms out straight to the sides, like a scarecrow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of the things that makes redwoods so unique is that they actually hold hands with their roots underneath the ground, and that’s how they’re able to grow to be so tall and not fall down is that they help each other. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwood roots are shallow and extend outward instead of down. Their roots extend out almost as far as the tree is tall … and they essentially hold each other up. In addition to being really big… redwoods can also live a very long time… like more than 2,000 years. That means some coastal redwoods today were alive during the Roman Empire. Those old-growth redwoods, which now only account for 5 percent of all redwood trees, can store more carbon than any other forest on the planet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So we are pretty lucky to have redwood trees here in Oakland. And people travel from all over the world to come and see redwood trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Magical sounding music\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwood trees also have unique ways of reproducing. They produce seeds, like any other tree, but they can also sprout new trees from their roots. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So often redwood trees, you will find them in circles that we call fairy rings. Because if a parent tree gets hurt or injured, it will send out these baby sprouts into these circles. And it’s kind of like a little family growing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They’re basically clones of their parents. That’s why you rarely see redwood trees standing alone, and more often see them together in a circle formation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Deborah tells the students we can learn a lot from redwood trees. They exist in communities and rely on each other for support. They have hard exteriors that protect them from things like wildfires, but they’re soft on the inside. Deborah says… they’re not so different from us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The earliest redwood trees existed more than 200 million years ago… alongside dinosaurs in the Jurassic period. Their natural range has shrunk a lot in that time… now they mostly stretch up and down the northern California coast… as far north as the Oregon border and down to about Big Sur. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Their distribution tracks with another iconic California phenomenon… coastal fog. So, in the summer months, when there’s a lack of rainfall, redwood trees essentially drink the fog.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s almost like a sponge sucking in that water. And then when their needles get full, also like a sponge, any of that excess water will drip to the ground. And it’s almost as if they’re creating their own rain. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And they’ve adapted to this region in other ways, too. They’re highly adapted to fire. Take the 2020 CZU Lightning Complex fire, for example, which burned through most of Big Basin Redwoods near Santa Cruz. Three years later, that forest is green again… and the old-growth redwood trees there are still standing strong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwoods also survived a period of severe logging in the late 18-hundreds when, after the Gold Rush, San Francisco was booming and timber was in high demand. Many trees didn’t survive, though. In fact, most of the trees now living in the Oakland hills are ones that have grown since that period of logging… young, by redwoods standards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Luckily, a movement was underway to protect redwood forests. Save the Redwoods League… where Deborah works… was founded in 1918… and helped to accelerate the preservation of redwood trees across Northern California. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> People started to see the value in recreation and see the value in these trees not as lumber, but for health and wellness and for preservation purposes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music in \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But now they’re facing new challenges. As our question-asker Julie noticed… Redwood trees in the Bay Area are struggling.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> If you walk and you look up now, in most urban areas, I think everybody can pretty much see that, you know, there’s some tops that are dying back. There’s a lot of, you know, brown foliage in the crowns of these trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s Todd Dawson. He’s an environmental scientist and professor at UC Berkeley and has been studying redwood trees for decades. We met up on a foggy morning at the UC Berkeley campus… home to many unhealthy-looking redwood trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> See the thinning crowns of the one right out there in the distance? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> There you go. And you just see that over and over and over, repeated in so many places. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Todd says trees are suffering all over the Bay Area… even up through Santa Rosa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And, there are two main reasons for that suffering. Let’s take them one at a time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The first reason is urbanization. The Bay Area has gone through a drastic transformation over the last century…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And with all the concrete and all the pollution that’s associated with urban sprawl, the trees are suffering. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s mostly because sidewalks and roadways are impinging on redwoods’ root systems. Remember how their roots extend out really wide?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Here we are standing ten feet away from a redwood tree on a concrete sidewalk. And we’ve set concrete on top of a big part of the root system. And so it’s really going to have a very, very negative impact on the ability of that tree to get the water it needs, get the nutrients it needs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re basically suffocating them. And on top of that, we have reason number two… climate change… which is impacting redwood trees in different ways. That fog that redwoods drink in, well, it turns out it’s on the decline. In fact, since the 1950’s it’s declined about 30% during the summertime… when redwoods really need it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That decline, coupled with periods of severe drought in California, is putting a lot of stress on the trees. Especially Giant Sequoias… another type of redwood that mostly lives in the Sierra Nevada. Thousands of trees there have died due to a lack of water. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The water deficit itself didn’t really kill all those trees. It weakened them in a way where other pests and pathogens got in there and basically wiped them out like beetles, fungi, other things like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In addition to a lack of water… more intense fires are also impacting those trees. Although they have adapted to fire over the centuries… they can’t handle the extreme fires we’re seeing now caused by climate change and bad forest management. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All in all, Todd says redwood forests are struggling along their perimeters. As the wildland-urban interface stretches further and further into the wild… redwood trees are increasingly exposed to human impacts. They’re losing their buffer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I think that’s the future, is we’re going to see a patchier world. And that’s really disappointing and concerning for me because, you know, we sit at the heart of that. Humans are really the ones that are in control and are having the negative impacts that we now see. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now, I think we’ve answered most of Julie’s questions… except for one. What can we do about it? Todd has a couple thoughts on that. First, Julie, regarding your backyard redwood trees… Todd says you can try watering them…. But…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The trees require so much water. They also require pretty special microclimates, meaning that they like it cooler. They like these moist, foggy summers like we’re seeing today. You know, And I think you can’t really recreate those conditions as a person. Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Unfortunately, he says, irrigation is a band-aid solution at best. Because the problems redwood trees are facing now are much more systemic. And that’s how we need to think about solutions, Todd says.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of those solutions is to protect redwood forests by getting them in the hands of governments and nonprofits… like Deborah’s Save the Redwoods League. Todd says that work is critical to ensuring the trees’ survival here in Northern California. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Whimsical music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The forests are just so special, these big cathedrals with these amazing and gigantic trees that there’s just nothing like that. And I think anybody who’s ever walked through a forest for the first time just is in awe of what a special place and what a special feel it has. And so I’m really concerned about them and I want to keep working with them and I’d love to see those forests protected, you know, in perpetuity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Protecting them now means securing their existence for our kids, grandkids… and maybe even humans two THOUSAND years from now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was KQED’s Dana Cronin.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at KQED. We are a member-supported public media station and we really need your help. Give today at KQED.org/donate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a fantastic week. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "why-theres-a-cross-on-san-franciscos-highest-peak",
"title": "Why There's a Cross on San Francisco's Highest Peak",
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"headTitle": "Why There’s a Cross on San Francisco’s Highest Peak | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View\u003c/a>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\"> the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article first published April 1, 2021.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tucked away on a wooded hillside in the middle of San Francisco sits a big concrete cross. When it was built, it could be seen from miles around. Now, a thick grove of trees partially shields it from view.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousbug]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the years, Bay Curious has gotten several questions about the cross. Even lifelong San Franciscans, like Julia Thollaug and Phil Montalvo, have wondered about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I grew up in and around S.F. I’ve always noticed the cross and just wondered why it was there and where it came from?” says Thollaug.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Growing up in the Outer Mission/Crocker Amazon, the cross was always in view. I never understood when it was constructed, or even as of today, why it’s still up on Mount Davidson,” adds Montalvo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Neither of them has ever visited Mount Davidson Park, where the cross is located. And after living here for decades, I hadn’t either.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mount Davidson Park rises above a quiet residential neighborhood just west of Twin Peaks. It’s not well known or well marked. But once you start walking the park’s trails, you’re surrounded by eucalyptus trees and it’s easy to forget you’re in the middle of a major city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867150\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11867150 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Looking to the east from the top of Mt. Davidson (Suzie Racho/KQED) \u003ccite>(Suzie Racho)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When you get to the top, you see two things: a view that stretches all the way to the East Bay and one very big cross. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.arcadiapublishing.com/Products/9780738546605\">Author\u003c/a> and Mount Davidson \u003ca href=\"https://mtdavidson.org/jacqueline-proctor/\">historian\u003c/a> Jacquie Proctor says the cross’s origin story goes back to 1923. To a time when the area was a forest. \u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A guy named James Decatur, who is an employee of the Western Union Telegraph Company and involved with the YMCA, hikes through that forest and comes to the top, ” Proctor says. “And he sees this incredible view of downtown. And he is just overwhelmed. He is inspired then to build a cross to crown the highest point of the city.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">An imposing sight, the concrete cross stands 103 feet tall and measures 10 feet wide at the base. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Decatur thought it would be a perfect place to hold an Easter sunrise service. Holding religious ceremonies in natural settings was a trend at the time. Proctor says people were pushing back against the materialism of the Roaring ’20s by reconnecting to the natural and to the spiritual. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So it wasn’t hard for Decatur to find support for his idea. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867161\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 281px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11867161\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48208_1923-SF-Examiner-qut-800x1209.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"281\" height=\"425\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48208_1923-SF-Examiner-qut-800x1209.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48208_1923-SF-Examiner-qut-160x242.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48208_1923-SF-Examiner-qut.jpg 940w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 281px) 100vw, 281px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An article from the San Francisco Examiner, January 1923.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Several of Mount Davidson’s trails had already been established by its landowner, a developer named A.S. Baldwin. Baldwin was already starting to build houses in the surrounding area. These would become neighborhoods like Westwood Highlands, Forest Hill and St. Francis Wood. Baldwin saw the service as a way to introduce more people to new neighborhoods west of Twin Peaks. So he not only gives Decatur permission to hold the event, but donates $2,000 to get a 40-foot tall wooden cross constructed for the service. That’s nearly $31,000 in today’s dollars.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/b>The event also received enthusiastic backing from city officials, religious leaders and community groups. Boy Scout troops camped out the night before and acted as ushers for attendees. The dean of Grace Cathedral led the service. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That Easter morning was a rainy one, but Proctor says that didn’t stop 5,000 worshipers from showing up. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“James Decatur thinks, ‘This is great. Had no idea 5,000 people would come, so let’s do it again!’ ” Proctor says.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Decatur raises money for a bigger wooden cross for the service the following year. But it wouldn’t be the last service or the last cross. There were five in all. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Each temporary cross was replaced as t\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">he now annual service got more and more popular, drawing tens of thousands of people, Proctor says. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867160\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 358px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11867160\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48209_AAB-9499-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"358\" height=\"459\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48209_AAB-9499-qut.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48209_AAB-9499-qut-160x205.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 358px) 100vw, 358px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">(Photo Courtesy: San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“People are dressed up,” Proctor says. “They’re wearing fancy shoes and their fur coats. It was this incredible civic event. ”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But it was still being held on \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">private\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> land, land that was beginning to fill with new houses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The encroaching development alarmed nature lover \u003ca href=\"https://sfpucnewsroom.com/spotlight/a-look-back-in-history-a-courageous-woman-organized-to-preserve-mt-davidson-as-a-public-park/\">Madie Brown\u003c/a>. In 1926, she led a campaign to urge the city to buy 25 acres on Mount Davidson to create a public park. Bolstered by women’s groups across the city, the three-year campaign was a success. She even won the support of Baldwin’s widow, Emma, who donated the six acres at the peak. T\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">he cross would now be sitting on public land. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867378\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11867378\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48271_AAA-9478-2-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"671\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48271_AAA-9478-2-qut.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48271_AAA-9478-2-qut-160x134.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Thousands of worshippers climbed to the top of Mount Davidson for the sunrise service in 1930. (Photo Courtesy: San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library) \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After years of temporary crosses, construction began on the monument in 1932. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It took two years and $20,000 to build the enormous concrete cross — almost $400,000 in today’s dollars. By the time it was completed, the country was in The Great Depression. But the people still wanted a grand celebration.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As part of the ceremony, a dozen 1,000-watt flood lights were installed on poles surrounding the cross. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Madie Brown envisioned a dramatic moment when the lights would be switched on for the first time. She wrote to an envoy of President Franklin Delano Roosevelt asking him to do the honors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“It seems most appropriate that the President, who has brought light into many a darkened American home and who through his New Deal has instilled the principles of the Golden Rule into American business, should take part in this cross lighting ceremony,” she wrote.\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Western Union donates their time and their telegraph lines to set up a coast-to-coast hookup between Washington, D.C., and San Francisco. And on the evening of March 24, 1934, President Roosevelt pressed a gold \u003ca href=\"https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/history/morse-code-telegraph/morse-key-development.php\">telegraph key\u003c/a> that sent electricity across the country to light the Mount Davidson cross. Once lit, the cross was visible from 50 miles away. That Easter, 50,000 people journeyed to the monument. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867162\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 280px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-11867162\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48210_AAA-9440-sfi.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"280\" height=\"352\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48210_AAA-9440-sfi.jpg 286w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48210_AAA-9440-sfi-160x201.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 280px) 100vw, 280px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Mount Davidson cross nears completion in 1934. (Photo Courtesy: San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library) \u003ccite>(Photo Courtesy: San Francisco History Center, San FrancicoPublic Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The cross became a San Francisco landmark. But other than an appearance in the Clint Eastwood movie, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“Dirty Harry”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> in 1971, it had largely stayed out of the news until the early 1990s, when the issue of a cross on public land ends up in \u003ca href=\"https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/803/337/2132956/\">court.\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After several years of litigation, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals rules that\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> city ownership of the cross violates the California Constitution’s separation of church and state laws. San Francisco has to find someone to buy the cross or tear it down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The city decides they’re going to sell the land around the cross and the cross and they have to sell it with no conditions,” says Proctor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12077572 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00034_TV-KQED.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1997, San Francisco settles on a plan to auction off the cross and the little over a third of an acre it sits on. The sale requires any bidder to keep the site open to the public and places restrictions on how many days it can be illuminated.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Three groups come forward in hopes of preserving the cross as a landmark: The Friends of Mount Davidson Conservancy (of which Jacquie Proctor was a member), the \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Museum of the City of San Francisco\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> and the \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Council of \u003ca href=\"https://www.mountdavidsoncross.org/council\">Armenian American Organizations of Northern California\u003c/a>. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Armenian group thought that the cross could become a memorial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Most Armenian Americans, including those in the San Francisco Bay Area, are descendants of the few survivors of the Armenian genocide, which was carried out by the Turkish leaders of the Ottoman Empire in 1915,” says \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Roxanne Makasdjian, a member of Council of Armenian American Organizations of Northern California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Makasdjian says that descendants often built two things in the places where they settled: churches and genocide memorials. The Armenian Council thought a visible symbol like the cross on Mount Davidson could educate the public about this history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">With the support of the neighborhood group, who share the goals of preserving the cross and the park, Makasdjian’s group wins the rights to buy the site and the cross for $26,000. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867479\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11867479\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut-1536x1152.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A plaque at the base of the Mount Davidson Cross marks Armenian Genocide Commemoration Day. (Photo Courtesy: Council of Armenian Americans of Northern California) \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Council of Armenian Americans of Northern California)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Now, the cross is lit two nights a year, April 24 to commemorate the Armenian genocide and the night before Easter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The annual \u003ca href=\"https://mtdavidson.org/easter-sunrise-service/\">sunrise service\u003c/a> still exists. Now it’s non-denominational, and a few hundred people usually show up. Not quite the same scene as the thousands who appeared in their finery in the 1920s and 1930s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But Proctor is thankful for the sunrise service. Without it, she says, Mount Davidson would look very different today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If we didn’t have the sunrise service, we wouldn’t have a park there now. And it would have been covered with houses and buildings, like most of the other hills of San Francisco.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 2020, the coronavirus pandemic canceled the Easter service for the first time since 1923.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco may not be thought of as one of America’s most religious cities these days, but the place is named for St. Francis of Assisi. He’s the patron saint of animals, the environment and the country of Italy, which if you think about the city’s history has turned out to be a pretty apt name. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco has a long tradition of diverse religious practice. One place that hints at this history is on San Francisco’s highest peak, Mount Davidson. Look up and you’ll find a massive concrete cross at the top, one that some of you have been wondering about.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Thollaug: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hi, Bay Curious. I’m Julia Thollaug. I grew up in and around San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Phil Montalvo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">My name is Phil Montalvo. I’m a native San Franciscan.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Thollaug: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’ve always noticed the cross and just wondered why it was there, where it came from.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Phil Montalvo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Growing up in the Outer Mission, Crocker Amazon, the cross was always in view. I never understood when it was constructed or even why it’s still up on Mount Davidson.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Thollaug and Phil Montalvo together: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What’s the deal with the giant cross on the top of Mount Davidson?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today on Bay Curious, we tell the story of how San Francisco ended up with a cross at its highest point. This story first aired in 2021, and we’re sharing it again because, well, there’s an event coming up that makes it sort of noteworthy at this point in time. You’ll see. You’ll see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price, you’re listening to Be Curious. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What is the deal with that Mount Davidson cross? We sent KQED producer Suzie Racho to find out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Just west of Twin Peaks, rising above a quiet residential neighborhood is Mount Davidson Park. It’s not well-known or well-marked, but once you start walking one of the park’s trails, you’re surrounded by eucalyptus trees, and you start to forget that you’re in the middle of a major city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I’m coming up the trail. I’m a little out of breath, but wow, what an amazing view. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When you get to the top, you see two things: a view that stretches all the way to the East Bay and one very big cross. The cross is an imposing sight. It stands at 103 feet tall and 10 feet wide at the base. Made of concrete, it stands in stark contrast to blue sky and the eucalyptus grove that surrounds it. To learn more about how it got here, I went to Mount Davidson’s resident historian.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hi, I’m Jackie Proctor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Jackie says the cross’s origin story goes back almost 100 years to 1923, to a time when the area was a forest.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A guy named James Decatur, who is an employee of the Western Union Telegraph Company, and followed with the YMCA, hikes through that forest and comes to the top and he sees this incredible view of downtown. And he is just overwhelmed and inspired and he writes this long essay about the experience.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over for James Decatur: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peace and quiet were so profound that it seemed almost unbelievable that the noise and roar of a great city was only a few minutes behind them. The solitude of the forest conveyed a sense of vastness quite as real as one would experience among the age-old monarchs of the High Sierras.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He is inspired then to build a cross to crown the highest point of the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Decatur thought it would be a perfect place to hold an Easter sunrise service. Holding religious ceremonies in natural settings was a trend at the time. Jackie says that people were pushing back against the materialism of the Roaring Twenties, reconnecting with the natural and spiritual worlds. So it wasn’t hard to find support for his idea. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Several of Mount Davidson’s trails had already been established by its landowner, a local developer named A.S. Baldwin. Baldwin was already starting to build houses in the surrounding area. He saw the Easter service as a way to introduce more people to the new neighborhoods west of Twin Peaks. So Baldwin not only gives Decatur permission to hold the event, but donates $2,000 to get a 40-foot-tall wooden cross constructed. That’s nearly $31,000 today — a hefty contribution.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">5,000 people hike up that hill in 1923.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The service received enthusiastic backing from city officials, religious leaders and community groups. Boy Scouts camped out the night before and acted as ushers for attendees. The Dean of Grace Cathedral led the service.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">James Decatur thinks, great, this is great. I had no idea 5,000 people would come, so let’s do it again.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Decatur raises money for a bigger wooden cross for the service the following year, but it wouldn’t be the last service or the last cross.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The first one was just torn down and replaced, and then the second one was burned down, and then, the third one was burnt down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Local newspapers report the fires as accidental or vandalism by bored teenagers. Each temporary cross was replaced as the now annual service got more and more popular, drawing tens of thousands of people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People are dressed up. They’re wearing their fancy shoes and their fur coats and everything. It was like, you know, this incredible civic event.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But it was still being held on private land, land that was beginning to fill with newly constructed houses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The encroaching development alarmed nature lover Maddie Brown. In 1926, she led a campaign to urge the city to buy 25 acres on Mount Davidson to create a public park. Bolstered by women’s groups across the city, the three-year campaign was a success. She even won the support of Baldwin’s widow, Emma. Who donated the six acres at the peak. In 1929, Mount Davidson became a city park. That put the cross on public land. Supporters eagerly began planning for a more permanent cross, one that couldn’t be blown or burned down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor reading: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And before 32,000 people at the 1932 Sunrise event, Governor Roth dedicated the cornerstone of the new 103-foot-high concrete cross.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It took two years and $20,000 to build the enormous concrete cross. That’s almost $400,000 today. And by the time it was done, the country was in the Great Depression. But the people still wanted a grand celebration. 12 huge floodlights were installed on poles surrounding the cross. Maddy Brown envisioned a dramatic moment when the lights would be switched on for the first time. She wrote to President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, asking him to do the honors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It seems most appropriate that the President, who has brought light into many a darkened American home, and who through his new deal has instilled the principles of the Golden Rule into American business, should take part in this cross-lighting ceremony.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Western Union donates their time and their telegraph lines, providing a coast-to-coast hookup between Washington, D.C. And San Francisco. And on the evening of March 24, 1934, President Roosevelt pressed the button that sent electricity across the country to light the Mount Davidson Cross. That Easter, 50,000 people journeyed to the monument. The cross became a San Francisco landmark. It made an appearance in the Clint Eastwood movie Dirty Harry in 1971. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dirty Harry clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Now turn, face the cross. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But had largely stayed out of the news until the early 90s. That’s when the issue of a cross on public land becomes a lawsuit. Groups concerned about the separation of church and state, including the ACLU, sue the city. After several years, the courts rule that city ownership of the cross violates the California Constitution’s separation of church and state. San Francisco has to find someone to buy the cross or tear it down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So then the city decides they’re going to sell the land around the cross, and the cross. And they have to sell it with no conditions. So whoever buys it can tear the cross down, or they can…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our historian Jackie, a longtime Mount Davidson resident, remembers the controversy vividly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Concerned about that. I’m not a religious person. I sort of just saw the cross as like a relic of the depression, another public works project.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1997, San Francisco settles on a plan to auction off the cross and the little over a third of an acre that it sits on. They require any bidder to keep the site open to the public. The city sets the opening bid at $20,000. Three groups are interested in buying and preserving the cross, the Friends of Mount Davidson Conservancy, of which Jackie was a member, the Museum of the City of San Francisco, and the Council of Armenian American Organizations of Northern California.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roxanne Makassian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Most Armenian Americans, including those in the San Francisco Bay Area, are descendants of the few survivors of the Armenian Genocide, which was carried out by the Turkish leaders of the Ottoman Empire in 1915.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Roxanne Makassian is a member of the Armenian Council. She says that descendants often build two things in the places where they settled, churches and a genocide memorial.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roxanne Makassian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Armenians said, you know, this would make a great monument for us to remember the Armenian genocide and maybe to educate locals about it.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">At the auction, the museum doesn’t go past their opening bid of $20,000. The neighborhood group bids $25,000, but supports the Armenian group after agreeing they both want the same things for the park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We thought, well, they seem like they really care about maintaining the area for public access. That was our goal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today the cross is lit two nights a year, April 24th to commemorate the Armenian Genocide, and the night before Easter. The annual sunrise service still exists, today it’s non-denominational, and a few hundred people usually show up. Not quite the same scene as the thousands who appeared in their finery in the 1920s and 30s. But Jackie says, without the sunrise service Mount Davidson would look very different today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You know, if we didn’t have the sunrise service, we wouldn’t have a park there now. And it would have been covered with houses and buildings or everything like most of the other hills of San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This year’s sunrise service takes place at 6.30 a.m on April 5th. Find details at mtdavidson.org. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Have you signed up for the Bay Curious newsletter yet? It’s full of Bay Area trivia, more answers to your questions, and usually some cool photos. Sign up at baycurious.org slash newsletter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This episode was produced by Suzie Racho, Katie McMurran, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Bay Curious is a production of member-supported KQED in San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It is pledge season, and that means we need your support. Give any amount that works for your budget at kqed.org slash donate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Brice, have a great day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View\u003c/a>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\"> the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article first published April 1, 2021.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tucked away on a wooded hillside in the middle of San Francisco sits a big concrete cross. When it was built, it could be seen from miles around. Now, a thick grove of trees partially shields it from view.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the years, Bay Curious has gotten several questions about the cross. Even lifelong San Franciscans, like Julia Thollaug and Phil Montalvo, have wondered about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I grew up in and around S.F. I’ve always noticed the cross and just wondered why it was there and where it came from?” says Thollaug.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Growing up in the Outer Mission/Crocker Amazon, the cross was always in view. I never understood when it was constructed, or even as of today, why it’s still up on Mount Davidson,” adds Montalvo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Neither of them has ever visited Mount Davidson Park, where the cross is located. And after living here for decades, I hadn’t either.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mount Davidson Park rises above a quiet residential neighborhood just west of Twin Peaks. It’s not well known or well marked. But once you start walking the park’s trails, you’re surrounded by eucalyptus trees and it’s easy to forget you’re in the middle of a major city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867150\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11867150 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Looking to the east from the top of Mt. Davidson (Suzie Racho/KQED) \u003ccite>(Suzie Racho)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When you get to the top, you see two things: a view that stretches all the way to the East Bay and one very big cross. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.arcadiapublishing.com/Products/9780738546605\">Author\u003c/a> and Mount Davidson \u003ca href=\"https://mtdavidson.org/jacqueline-proctor/\">historian\u003c/a> Jacquie Proctor says the cross’s origin story goes back to 1923. To a time when the area was a forest. \u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A guy named James Decatur, who is an employee of the Western Union Telegraph Company and involved with the YMCA, hikes through that forest and comes to the top, ” Proctor says. “And he sees this incredible view of downtown. And he is just overwhelmed. He is inspired then to build a cross to crown the highest point of the city.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">An imposing sight, the concrete cross stands 103 feet tall and measures 10 feet wide at the base. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Decatur thought it would be a perfect place to hold an Easter sunrise service. Holding religious ceremonies in natural settings was a trend at the time. Proctor says people were pushing back against the materialism of the Roaring ’20s by reconnecting to the natural and to the spiritual. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So it wasn’t hard for Decatur to find support for his idea. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867161\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 281px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11867161\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48208_1923-SF-Examiner-qut-800x1209.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"281\" height=\"425\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48208_1923-SF-Examiner-qut-800x1209.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48208_1923-SF-Examiner-qut-160x242.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48208_1923-SF-Examiner-qut.jpg 940w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 281px) 100vw, 281px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An article from the San Francisco Examiner, January 1923.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Several of Mount Davidson’s trails had already been established by its landowner, a developer named A.S. Baldwin. Baldwin was already starting to build houses in the surrounding area. These would become neighborhoods like Westwood Highlands, Forest Hill and St. Francis Wood. Baldwin saw the service as a way to introduce more people to new neighborhoods west of Twin Peaks. So he not only gives Decatur permission to hold the event, but donates $2,000 to get a 40-foot tall wooden cross constructed for the service. That’s nearly $31,000 in today’s dollars.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/b>The event also received enthusiastic backing from city officials, religious leaders and community groups. Boy Scout troops camped out the night before and acted as ushers for attendees. The dean of Grace Cathedral led the service. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That Easter morning was a rainy one, but Proctor says that didn’t stop 5,000 worshipers from showing up. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“James Decatur thinks, ‘This is great. Had no idea 5,000 people would come, so let’s do it again!’ ” Proctor says.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Decatur raises money for a bigger wooden cross for the service the following year. But it wouldn’t be the last service or the last cross. There were five in all. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Each temporary cross was replaced as t\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">he now annual service got more and more popular, drawing tens of thousands of people, Proctor says. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867160\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 358px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11867160\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48209_AAB-9499-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"358\" height=\"459\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48209_AAB-9499-qut.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48209_AAB-9499-qut-160x205.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 358px) 100vw, 358px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">(Photo Courtesy: San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“People are dressed up,” Proctor says. “They’re wearing fancy shoes and their fur coats. It was this incredible civic event. ”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But it was still being held on \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">private\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> land, land that was beginning to fill with new houses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The encroaching development alarmed nature lover \u003ca href=\"https://sfpucnewsroom.com/spotlight/a-look-back-in-history-a-courageous-woman-organized-to-preserve-mt-davidson-as-a-public-park/\">Madie Brown\u003c/a>. In 1926, she led a campaign to urge the city to buy 25 acres on Mount Davidson to create a public park. Bolstered by women’s groups across the city, the three-year campaign was a success. She even won the support of Baldwin’s widow, Emma, who donated the six acres at the peak. T\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">he cross would now be sitting on public land. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867378\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11867378\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48271_AAA-9478-2-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"671\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48271_AAA-9478-2-qut.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48271_AAA-9478-2-qut-160x134.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Thousands of worshippers climbed to the top of Mount Davidson for the sunrise service in 1930. (Photo Courtesy: San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library) \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After years of temporary crosses, construction began on the monument in 1932. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It took two years and $20,000 to build the enormous concrete cross — almost $400,000 in today’s dollars. By the time it was completed, the country was in The Great Depression. But the people still wanted a grand celebration.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As part of the ceremony, a dozen 1,000-watt flood lights were installed on poles surrounding the cross. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Madie Brown envisioned a dramatic moment when the lights would be switched on for the first time. She wrote to an envoy of President Franklin Delano Roosevelt asking him to do the honors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“It seems most appropriate that the President, who has brought light into many a darkened American home and who through his New Deal has instilled the principles of the Golden Rule into American business, should take part in this cross lighting ceremony,” she wrote.\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Western Union donates their time and their telegraph lines to set up a coast-to-coast hookup between Washington, D.C., and San Francisco. And on the evening of March 24, 1934, President Roosevelt pressed a gold \u003ca href=\"https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/history/morse-code-telegraph/morse-key-development.php\">telegraph key\u003c/a> that sent electricity across the country to light the Mount Davidson cross. Once lit, the cross was visible from 50 miles away. That Easter, 50,000 people journeyed to the monument. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867162\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 280px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-11867162\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48210_AAA-9440-sfi.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"280\" height=\"352\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48210_AAA-9440-sfi.jpg 286w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48210_AAA-9440-sfi-160x201.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 280px) 100vw, 280px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Mount Davidson cross nears completion in 1934. (Photo Courtesy: San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library) \u003ccite>(Photo Courtesy: San Francisco History Center, San FrancicoPublic Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The cross became a San Francisco landmark. But other than an appearance in the Clint Eastwood movie, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“Dirty Harry”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> in 1971, it had largely stayed out of the news until the early 1990s, when the issue of a cross on public land ends up in \u003ca href=\"https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/803/337/2132956/\">court.\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After several years of litigation, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals rules that\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> city ownership of the cross violates the California Constitution’s separation of church and state laws. San Francisco has to find someone to buy the cross or tear it down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The city decides they’re going to sell the land around the cross and the cross and they have to sell it with no conditions,” says Proctor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1997, San Francisco settles on a plan to auction off the cross and the little over a third of an acre it sits on. The sale requires any bidder to keep the site open to the public and places restrictions on how many days it can be illuminated.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Three groups come forward in hopes of preserving the cross as a landmark: The Friends of Mount Davidson Conservancy (of which Jacquie Proctor was a member), the \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Museum of the City of San Francisco\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> and the \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Council of \u003ca href=\"https://www.mountdavidsoncross.org/council\">Armenian American Organizations of Northern California\u003c/a>. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Armenian group thought that the cross could become a memorial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Most Armenian Americans, including those in the San Francisco Bay Area, are descendants of the few survivors of the Armenian genocide, which was carried out by the Turkish leaders of the Ottoman Empire in 1915,” says \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Roxanne Makasdjian, a member of Council of Armenian American Organizations of Northern California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Makasdjian says that descendants often built two things in the places where they settled: churches and genocide memorials. The Armenian Council thought a visible symbol like the cross on Mount Davidson could educate the public about this history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">With the support of the neighborhood group, who share the goals of preserving the cross and the park, Makasdjian’s group wins the rights to buy the site and the cross for $26,000. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867479\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11867479\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut-1536x1152.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A plaque at the base of the Mount Davidson Cross marks Armenian Genocide Commemoration Day. (Photo Courtesy: Council of Armenian Americans of Northern California) \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Council of Armenian Americans of Northern California)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Now, the cross is lit two nights a year, April 24 to commemorate the Armenian genocide and the night before Easter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The annual \u003ca href=\"https://mtdavidson.org/easter-sunrise-service/\">sunrise service\u003c/a> still exists. Now it’s non-denominational, and a few hundred people usually show up. Not quite the same scene as the thousands who appeared in their finery in the 1920s and 1930s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But Proctor is thankful for the sunrise service. Without it, she says, Mount Davidson would look very different today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If we didn’t have the sunrise service, we wouldn’t have a park there now. And it would have been covered with houses and buildings, like most of the other hills of San Francisco.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 2020, the coronavirus pandemic canceled the Easter service for the first time since 1923.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco may not be thought of as one of America’s most religious cities these days, but the place is named for St. Francis of Assisi. He’s the patron saint of animals, the environment and the country of Italy, which if you think about the city’s history has turned out to be a pretty apt name. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco has a long tradition of diverse religious practice. One place that hints at this history is on San Francisco’s highest peak, Mount Davidson. Look up and you’ll find a massive concrete cross at the top, one that some of you have been wondering about.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Thollaug: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hi, Bay Curious. I’m Julia Thollaug. I grew up in and around San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Phil Montalvo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">My name is Phil Montalvo. I’m a native San Franciscan.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Thollaug: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’ve always noticed the cross and just wondered why it was there, where it came from.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Phil Montalvo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Growing up in the Outer Mission, Crocker Amazon, the cross was always in view. I never understood when it was constructed or even why it’s still up on Mount Davidson.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Thollaug and Phil Montalvo together: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What’s the deal with the giant cross on the top of Mount Davidson?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today on Bay Curious, we tell the story of how San Francisco ended up with a cross at its highest point. This story first aired in 2021, and we’re sharing it again because, well, there’s an event coming up that makes it sort of noteworthy at this point in time. You’ll see. You’ll see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price, you’re listening to Be Curious. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What is the deal with that Mount Davidson cross? We sent KQED producer Suzie Racho to find out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Just west of Twin Peaks, rising above a quiet residential neighborhood is Mount Davidson Park. It’s not well-known or well-marked, but once you start walking one of the park’s trails, you’re surrounded by eucalyptus trees, and you start to forget that you’re in the middle of a major city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I’m coming up the trail. I’m a little out of breath, but wow, what an amazing view. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When you get to the top, you see two things: a view that stretches all the way to the East Bay and one very big cross. The cross is an imposing sight. It stands at 103 feet tall and 10 feet wide at the base. Made of concrete, it stands in stark contrast to blue sky and the eucalyptus grove that surrounds it. To learn more about how it got here, I went to Mount Davidson’s resident historian.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hi, I’m Jackie Proctor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Jackie says the cross’s origin story goes back almost 100 years to 1923, to a time when the area was a forest.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A guy named James Decatur, who is an employee of the Western Union Telegraph Company, and followed with the YMCA, hikes through that forest and comes to the top and he sees this incredible view of downtown. And he is just overwhelmed and inspired and he writes this long essay about the experience.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over for James Decatur: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peace and quiet were so profound that it seemed almost unbelievable that the noise and roar of a great city was only a few minutes behind them. The solitude of the forest conveyed a sense of vastness quite as real as one would experience among the age-old monarchs of the High Sierras.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He is inspired then to build a cross to crown the highest point of the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Decatur thought it would be a perfect place to hold an Easter sunrise service. Holding religious ceremonies in natural settings was a trend at the time. Jackie says that people were pushing back against the materialism of the Roaring Twenties, reconnecting with the natural and spiritual worlds. So it wasn’t hard to find support for his idea. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Several of Mount Davidson’s trails had already been established by its landowner, a local developer named A.S. Baldwin. Baldwin was already starting to build houses in the surrounding area. He saw the Easter service as a way to introduce more people to the new neighborhoods west of Twin Peaks. So Baldwin not only gives Decatur permission to hold the event, but donates $2,000 to get a 40-foot-tall wooden cross constructed. That’s nearly $31,000 today — a hefty contribution.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">5,000 people hike up that hill in 1923.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The service received enthusiastic backing from city officials, religious leaders and community groups. Boy Scouts camped out the night before and acted as ushers for attendees. The Dean of Grace Cathedral led the service.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">James Decatur thinks, great, this is great. I had no idea 5,000 people would come, so let’s do it again.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Decatur raises money for a bigger wooden cross for the service the following year, but it wouldn’t be the last service or the last cross.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The first one was just torn down and replaced, and then the second one was burned down, and then, the third one was burnt down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Local newspapers report the fires as accidental or vandalism by bored teenagers. Each temporary cross was replaced as the now annual service got more and more popular, drawing tens of thousands of people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People are dressed up. They’re wearing their fancy shoes and their fur coats and everything. It was like, you know, this incredible civic event.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But it was still being held on private land, land that was beginning to fill with newly constructed houses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The encroaching development alarmed nature lover Maddie Brown. In 1926, she led a campaign to urge the city to buy 25 acres on Mount Davidson to create a public park. Bolstered by women’s groups across the city, the three-year campaign was a success. She even won the support of Baldwin’s widow, Emma. Who donated the six acres at the peak. In 1929, Mount Davidson became a city park. That put the cross on public land. Supporters eagerly began planning for a more permanent cross, one that couldn’t be blown or burned down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor reading: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And before 32,000 people at the 1932 Sunrise event, Governor Roth dedicated the cornerstone of the new 103-foot-high concrete cross.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It took two years and $20,000 to build the enormous concrete cross. That’s almost $400,000 today. And by the time it was done, the country was in the Great Depression. But the people still wanted a grand celebration. 12 huge floodlights were installed on poles surrounding the cross. Maddy Brown envisioned a dramatic moment when the lights would be switched on for the first time. She wrote to President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, asking him to do the honors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It seems most appropriate that the President, who has brought light into many a darkened American home, and who through his new deal has instilled the principles of the Golden Rule into American business, should take part in this cross-lighting ceremony.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Western Union donates their time and their telegraph lines, providing a coast-to-coast hookup between Washington, D.C. And San Francisco. And on the evening of March 24, 1934, President Roosevelt pressed the button that sent electricity across the country to light the Mount Davidson Cross. That Easter, 50,000 people journeyed to the monument. The cross became a San Francisco landmark. It made an appearance in the Clint Eastwood movie Dirty Harry in 1971. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dirty Harry clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Now turn, face the cross. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But had largely stayed out of the news until the early 90s. That’s when the issue of a cross on public land becomes a lawsuit. Groups concerned about the separation of church and state, including the ACLU, sue the city. After several years, the courts rule that city ownership of the cross violates the California Constitution’s separation of church and state. San Francisco has to find someone to buy the cross or tear it down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So then the city decides they’re going to sell the land around the cross, and the cross. And they have to sell it with no conditions. So whoever buys it can tear the cross down, or they can…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our historian Jackie, a longtime Mount Davidson resident, remembers the controversy vividly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Concerned about that. I’m not a religious person. I sort of just saw the cross as like a relic of the depression, another public works project.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1997, San Francisco settles on a plan to auction off the cross and the little over a third of an acre that it sits on. They require any bidder to keep the site open to the public. The city sets the opening bid at $20,000. Three groups are interested in buying and preserving the cross, the Friends of Mount Davidson Conservancy, of which Jackie was a member, the Museum of the City of San Francisco, and the Council of Armenian American Organizations of Northern California.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roxanne Makassian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Most Armenian Americans, including those in the San Francisco Bay Area, are descendants of the few survivors of the Armenian Genocide, which was carried out by the Turkish leaders of the Ottoman Empire in 1915.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Roxanne Makassian is a member of the Armenian Council. She says that descendants often build two things in the places where they settled, churches and a genocide memorial.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roxanne Makassian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Armenians said, you know, this would make a great monument for us to remember the Armenian genocide and maybe to educate locals about it.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">At the auction, the museum doesn’t go past their opening bid of $20,000. The neighborhood group bids $25,000, but supports the Armenian group after agreeing they both want the same things for the park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We thought, well, they seem like they really care about maintaining the area for public access. That was our goal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today the cross is lit two nights a year, April 24th to commemorate the Armenian Genocide, and the night before Easter. The annual sunrise service still exists, today it’s non-denominational, and a few hundred people usually show up. Not quite the same scene as the thousands who appeared in their finery in the 1920s and 30s. But Jackie says, without the sunrise service Mount Davidson would look very different today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You know, if we didn’t have the sunrise service, we wouldn’t have a park there now. And it would have been covered with houses and buildings or everything like most of the other hills of San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This year’s sunrise service takes place at 6.30 a.m on April 5th. Find details at mtdavidson.org. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Have you signed up for the Bay Curious newsletter yet? It’s full of Bay Area trivia, more answers to your questions, and usually some cool photos. Sign up at baycurious.org slash newsletter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This episode was produced by Suzie Racho, Katie McMurran, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Bay Curious is a production of member-supported KQED in San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It is pledge season, and that means we need your support. Give any amount that works for your budget at kqed.org slash donate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "the-return-of-mabuhay-gardens-the-punk-club-that-changed-san-francisco",
"title": "The Return of Mabuhay Gardens: The Punk Club That Changed San Francisco",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Few places are as legendary in San Francisco’s punk scene as Mabuhay Gardens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Located on Broadway, at the edge of North Beach and Chinatown, it was ground zero for the city’s emerging punk movement in the late 1970s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The hybrid Filipino restaurant and music venue hosted bands like the Avengers and the Dead Kennedys — even punk rock icon Patti Smith took the stage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When it closed in 1987, much of the city’s punk history seemed to fade with it. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13980619/mabuhay-gardens-reopening-sf-punk-club-north-beach\">But nearly 40 years later, a group of investors and enthusiasts is working to bring the so-called “Fab Mab” back to life.\u003c/a> We dig into the history and legacy of Mabuhay Gardens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are few places as revered in the San Francisco punk music scene as a place called Mabuhay Gardens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12060034\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/Punk-band-with-Zippy-Pinhead-performing-at-Mabuhay-Gardens-includes-Vince-Deranged-of-Animal-Things-in-the-audience.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12060034\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/Punk-band-with-Zippy-Pinhead-performing-at-Mabuhay-Gardens-includes-Vince-Deranged-of-Animal-Things-in-the-audience.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1000\" height=\"670\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/Punk-band-with-Zippy-Pinhead-performing-at-Mabuhay-Gardens-includes-Vince-Deranged-of-Animal-Things-in-the-audience.jpg 1000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/Punk-band-with-Zippy-Pinhead-performing-at-Mabuhay-Gardens-includes-Vince-Deranged-of-Animal-Things-in-the-audience-160x107.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1000px) 100vw, 1000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Punk band with Zippy Pinhead performing at Mabuhay Gardens; includes Vince Deranged of Animal Things in the audience, 1978. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Mindaugis Bagdon, San Francisco Punk Archive, San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>V Vale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> To play, you need a place, be it where you live, the street, a venue. For unrestricted play, you need an unrestricted playground. Dirk Dirksen envisioned the Fab Mab just as such a playground. Without him and the Mab, there might not have been the great punk scene in the late 1970s in San Francisco. The San Francisco punk scene was fun. I miss it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Located on Broadway, right on the edge of North Beach and Chinatown, Mabuhay Gardens, actually a nightclub, was ground zero for a nascent punk scene in late 1970s San Francisco. Bands like the Avengers, Dead Kennedys, The Nuns, and Patti Smith played there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Announcer:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s gonna part for a woman. I think Patti died. I’m gonna get her for this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Originally a Filipino supper club, Mabuhay Gardens was part of the small but vibrant community known as Manilatown. Redevelopment, gentrification, and other factors in the late 1970s forced many of the Filipino residents of Manilatown out. They moved to other neighborhoods or out of the city entirely. But Mabuhay Gardens remained and took on a surprising new life as a punk club.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Audio from Mabuhay Gardens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Are you ready for some breakdancing right now?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m Katrina Schwartz, and you’re listening to Bay Curious. Today on the show, we’re transporting you back to the epicenter of San Francisco’s ’70s punk scene. And we’ll learn why Mabuhay Gardens was such an important place to so many people. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Legendary punk music venue Mabuhay Gardens, known to fans as the Fab Mab, has been closed since 1987. But it reopened this month to great fanfare from local music lovers. To understand what this place meant to San Francisco’s punk scene, we’re immersing you in 1970s North Beach. Producer Brandi Howell brings us this story, which first aired on the \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://play.prx.org/listen?ge=prx_98_b3e69dbd-c23d-498a-9e79-6ea56ec10ad7&uf=https%3A%2F%2Ffeeds.fugitivewaves.org%2Ffugitivewaves\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kitchen Sisters Presents podcast.[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penelope Houston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Mabuhay was not your average rock club.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here was this little club all of a sudden attracting the energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ron Greco: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Dills, Negative Trend, The Avengers…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, of course, you are going to say, “Oh, what is going on over there?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penelope Houston: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">More and more people started coming to town. The Ramones played there. Blondie played there. It just became the punk mecca.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ron Greco: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was real young, I would go by and see this place. It was there for years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The music itself was nothing really developed yet in the very beginning. It was just a supper club. People would do the Mabuhay dance and stuff like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Dirk was helping Ness with the Amapola show. Amapola was this Filipino night club singer, and she was popular within the Filipino community and had a TV show on Channel 26 and a number of characters from The Mab had performed there. My name is Denise Demise Dunne. I was Dirk’s assistant at the very beginning of The Mab.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>V Vale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi, welcome to The Counter Culture Hour. I’m your host, V Vale, and I published starting in ‘77 Search and Destroy, the punk publication chronicling the rise of the punk rock cultural revolution. My guest tonight is Dirk Dirksen, the impresario of The Mabuhay Gardens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dirk Dirksen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were open for 10 years, did 3,600 plus concerts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>V Vale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The thing was at the time, things were so conservative that no club wanted anything to do with punk rock until Dirk Dirksen showed up and made The Mabuhay Gardens available.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dirk Dirksen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ness downstairs at The Mabuhay was having a tough go of it, so I came in and said, Look — how about if you give us Monday nights because that is your dark night. Let me try that, and I will guarantee you $175 a night at the bar. I didn’t have $175 at the time, but I figured there are enough people I know that if I say, “Hey, c’mon down,” and if they each drink two beers, we’ll meet the guarantee. And within a very short time, we were grossing more on the Monday than he was grossing on the weekend with name Filipino acts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mindy Bagdon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My name is Mindy Bagdon. My film’s name is “Louder Faster Shorter”. At one point on Mondays, which was a dead period on the Broadway strip, Dirk convinced Ness Aquino, who owned the club, to let him put on different acts. Little by little, it went from sort of vaudevillian variety acts to where The Nuns, who were one of the first groups to play there, apparently, they went up to Dirk and they found out this venue was available and they said, Well, can we put on a show? And I remember I was walking up Grant Avenue and Vale’s then girlfriend was coming down, and proceeding me was the drummer for The Nuns and he was handing out flyers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>V Vale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My girlfriend who looked like a rocker — I guess I looked like one too, you know with platform shoes and spiked hair and all that junk, just superficial style — my girlfriend was walking down the street and a really short guy said, Hey…feel like coming to our band’s debut at The Mabuhay Gardens, which none of us had heard of because it was Filipino. I’ll put you on the guest list! Those are the magic words for any so-called real punk rocker. So we went, and then the rest is history.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mindy Bagdon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The first time we went to The Mabuhay, there were more people on stage than there were in the audience, because it hadn’t gotten around. But within two weeks, it was packed. I mean, word got around town. Don’t forget this is before the internet, before smartphones; it was literally person-to-person or on the telephone or snail mail to say this venue was doing this. And like I said, within two weeks, it was jammed. The joke was Bruce Conner, the famous artist, said — You’d be watching a band and you said, well, I can do this too. So you’d go home and learn at least one chord on your bass and you’d get on the stand and you were the audience one week and now you are on the stage.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Peck: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Kathy Peck, bass player for The Contractions and the co-founder and executive director of H.E.A.R., Hearing Education Awareness for Rockers. I came here with Don Peck and he was playing drums with Mary Monday. She actually started the punk scene at The Mabuhay Gardens. She was like the first one. There were other people that played there, but she was the one that really…she was amazing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Peck:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She came from a dancer background, but she was really punk. She was just wild! And I would hear stuff at The Mab and see it being played. I loved the music. I got inspired by Mary, and I had a bass — a Hofner Beatle bass. I was learning to play. I was self-taught. Yeah, it was really exciting. People were like, they call it pogo-ing or whatever, slam dancing. It was like very crowded and electrifying.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Dirk at that point asked me to be his assistant, and it was like, Yeah, but I can’t type. Because I basically avoided typing because as a female you get pigeoned-holed into being someone’s assistant. And he said, Well, you don’t have to type that much, and you get to do a lot of things around there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Seabury: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pretty often during the evening, he would be wearing what looks like the Groucho Marx nose with the glasses and eyebrows, except this one had a dildo instead of a nose. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mustache, glasses, a bit overweight. I remember the beige jacket, the beret on his hair, and the poodle in his arms. The was the first time I met Dirk.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Seabury:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> At the end of the evenings, of course, he’d come out on stage and tell everyone to get out, which no one is ever paying attention to. So he had a real police whistle which he would blow as hard as he could through the PA til people would leave. His favorite line was “We can’t make any more money off you, so get out!” I’m John Seabury. I started out playing in a band, Psychotic Pineapple, back in the ’70s, and I’m a graphic artist. I did all of the graphics for the band. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ron Greco:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I went to this nightclub called The Night Break, I guess you go downstairs on Columbus. This guy walks up to me. This big eye ball T-shirt and this big chicken hawk hair, red flaming hair, and he looks at me and says, Do you play guitar? And I say yeah. And so we talk for a little bit, and within 30 days, we each get Marshall stacks. That’s how quick it was. Zoom, zoom, zoom. Before we were Crime, we were the Space Invaders. Ron Greco, Ron “The Ripper” Greco. I had a Gibson Ripper Bass and everybody goes — Man, you rip a lot! Ripper!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I took the job and would come in and help him go through all the paperwork. Listen to some of the demo tapes of the bands that came in. Get their press announcement, like Devo. I still remember it saying, Achtung, De-Revolution has begun!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ron Greco:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I got the band members together and said, Let’s walk in and talk to the owner. We had a good time there talking to him, and so we arranged a show to play.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penelope Houston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In 1977, I moved down to San Francisco to go to the Art Institute in North Beach. And after I got there, I started to see these posters around town for this band called Crime. And they were really intriguing posters and they weren’t like anything I’d ever seen. They were at a club called The Mabuhay. I was 19 at the time, but they let people in 18 or older, but they let people in because it was also a Filipino restaurant, so they were able to let minors in. My name is Penelope Houston, I’m in a band called The Avengers. We started in 1977. That was my first band. I’d been going to these shows and ran into Danny Furious, who ended up being The Avengers drummer. He had a friend in Los Angeles, Greg Ingraham, and he brought Greg to SF to be in a band with him. Danny had rented part of a warehouse out in Dogpatch, and they had a PA set up for their rehearsals. I was staying over there one day, hanging out, and everybody was gone, and I put on some records and started singing through the PA. I just fell in love with the power of amplification. I was like, this is so awesome. I’m so loud, and then when they got back, I said, I’m going to be your singer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liz Keim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When I found the club, I felt at home. I could be exactly who I was and still be part of it. I was freed. My name is Liz Keim and along with Karen Merchant, we created the film, In The Red. It’s a punk document of the late 1970s, mostly filmed at The Mab. For the last 40 years, I’ve also been working at the Exploratorium. I’ve been the director of the Cinema Arts program, and I’m one of the senior curators. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, it was fabulous. There were people that came in for the first time to explore and they were still looking hippie. Then there were folks who had taken on the persona. Leather jacket, jeans, black pants, ripped T-shirts. You’d walk down the corridor, and there were all these little crevices with people hanging out there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liz Keim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re a night creature, looking for that place to be that feels like home.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I was one of those creatures cuz you’re just kind of there and you’re watching. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liz Keim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I went up to UC Davis to study art and that was a kind of isolating experience, when I came back into San Francisco I was looking for an intimacy in some ways. Looking for those smaller landscapes. I started filming. I prefer observing and critically assessing where I’m at, and I was drawn to the experimental film genre, so I wasn’t looking for something that followed a bell-curve narrative or, you know, was scripted outside of any experience I was living in. So for me, it was just capturing a kind of way of being in San Francisco. There were all kinds of relationships that didn’t have to feel permanent, where you didn’t have to have names, there was just something about a recognition.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There was just this excitement. There was the energy back to that word. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liz Keim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was about being in the mosh pit. It was about hanging on to someone I didn’t know just for counterbalance, and it was fine because my counterbalance was as into me as a counterbalance as I was into him or her as a counterbalance. You didn’t have to talk. You know, in some ways, we just talked through our bodies. Maybe The Mab was an analog experience for me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was at KSAN at that point, and Lou Reed came in for an interview; he was playing at the Old Waldorf. And he brought this guy in with him, and the DJ didn’t want to deal with him and said, Well, show him around. So we are talking and I’m showing him around and I’m telling this guy about The Mab and what’s going on cuz Lou has his show and I said, Oh, I’ll take you there. You know, and this was Jim Carroll. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Seabury:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Once we got in the Mabuhay, Dirk was really good to us. He had the sense of humor, he kind of got us. So sometimes he would have us open for someone really inappropriate, like the Jim Carroll Band or somebody like that, just because he was being perverse about it. We opened for Jim Carroll twice. And the second time word was out that Patti Smith was in town playing the old Waldorf and she is probably going to show up and jam. So the Mabuhay was double-packed that night. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Patti Smith, Patti Smith, Patti Smith!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Seabury:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> After the set, we were backstage and Dirk comes up and goes, Hey, you know, Patti Smith is coming. We were like, Yeah yeah, we heard. Well, she needs to borrow a guitar and we were like — No! Because we know she is going to break the guitar.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When Patti played the Mab, it was mesmerizing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Seabury:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Of course, most of the players in the scene at the time would have run home and gotten a guitar just to give to her to smash. Dirk goes off, and he comes back 10 minutes later and goes, Please guys, please….really, just one guitar for Patti. And we were like, No — forget it! So the band was on and Patti did show up, and it was really mobbed and all I could see of the band was the tops of their heads and then I just see the guitar overhead going smash, smash, smash and that was it. And it’s probably in a museum somewhere now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was awestruck. Like, wow! I mean, these are stupid words to come up with because it was just there and here’s this persona mixing this punk with poetry. It was like, yeah, this is it. This is just taking it to a whole different level. Because there were so many levels. There was the fun part, there was the political part, and here is the poetry — here is the art. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liz Keim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hanging outside was like the preamble or whatever. You got your sense of whether it was going to be crowded and what the energy was like. You didn’t just rush in. It was a lingering. The kind of slow meander and then you would hope to just squeeze in and get by admissions. And maybe having enough money for a beer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mindy Bagdon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Early on, people would throw beer bottles at the stage and that was very dangerous. So they actually thought maybe we will put a screen up between the band and the audience but that didn’t sound like a good idea. So then he got the idea, Ah ha — I’m going to make 55-gallon drums of popcorn!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>V Vale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All the super salty popcorn you could eat. I realize later the theory is that this makes you buy drinks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Seabury:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Free popcorn on the tables. It was really old popcorn and it wasn’t for eating — it was for throwing at the bands.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penelope Houston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There would be this big mess of popcorn and jumbled chairs and tables knocked over and it was kind of like a disaster zone.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I remember being in my house and all of a sudden just having this paradigm shift. The music was playing and all of a sudden, WHAP! Like — reality is not the same anymore. All of a sudden something woke up inside of me. I didn’t even know what it was called at that time, but it was like, Oh, something — something just changed here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liz Keim: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Not having much money, it was like, how to get into these places without it. You could sometimes climb in through the front window at The Mab and one time someone came and grabbed me and said, Dirk wants to talk to you in his office. So he goes, You don’t think I see you sneaking in all of the time! You know, no more of that. But it didn’t stop you. It was part of the culture. We were there to just get it however we could.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penelope Houston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The first show we played at The Mab, we had been asked two weeks before if we would play this show — an after-party for The Nuns. Between when we heard about the gig and when we played it, we went to LA and were visiting with friends of mine from Seattle, The Screamers. Tomata du Plenty and Tommy Gear. And I remember Tommy and Tomato saying to me, Oh, you can’t do cover songs. You guys need to write your own songs. So we got back from LA and we had about a week to go and were like, all right, let’s write some original songs. So we sat down and wrote “Car Crash”, “I Believe in Me”, “Teenage Rebel” — maybe six songs, original songs, in that week. Then, when we got up to play our first time on a real stage in front of a real audience — for me anyway — and someone had written the setlist wrong and so the guitar player was playing a different song from the bass player and the drummer. And when the music started, I was like, Oh my god. Oh my god. I can’t do this. I don’t even know what song this is. It just sounds like a big mish-mash. I can’t remember the lyrics and I was so confused and we stopped playing a few seconds later and was like what? What song are we playing? And then they figured it out, and we started playing the same song and I was like, All right, OK. Here’s how it goes and I can actually do this. But for 10 long seconds there, I thought, Oh, it’s all gone out of my head. I can’t do this. This is a nightmare. So then we just piled through the set and some people who were there were like, that was really amazing. And we were like, Oh my god. That was such a car crash. Jan. 14, 1978, we’d been invited to support the [Sex] Pistols. We got there and the place was absolutely sold out. Between 5-and-6,000 people. The biggest show The Sex Pistols ever played and like 10 times bigger than the biggest show we’d ever played. So when The Nuns were up there performing the stage got covered in things people were throwing, and spit, it was just pretty rough. So we walked out after they were done to take our place on stage and the first thing that happened to me was I slipped on the stage because there was so much spit. And I almost hit the ground but I kind of caught myself and made my way carefully to my microphone. There is a video of the whole night. And you can see how when we start we were a little frightened and shaky and scared. And then as are set progressed we just got more and more confident and got stronger til at the end we were feeling pretty awesome. It was crazy because there were so many people there and they were all mashed together. People were getting squeezed out of the audience like pimples. And passed overhead like they were passing out. You’d look out at the sea of faces and see someone you knew and make eye contact with them and a second later they would disappear into the crowd. So it was intense, especially for us. We were used to seeing a lot of our friends right up front singing along with us and this was like a huge number of people who had never seen punk before and were there for the spectacle. You know, the circus. A lot of people out there, it was a pretty intense experience. I think the throwing of things increased when the Sex Pistols got out there because Johnny Rotten egged them on. Someone threw a camera on stage. He was like, Oh, thank you. Like he was really egging them on to throw stuff. It started out terrifying for us and ended up feeling very good. There were rumors that Sid’s bass was not even plugged in for that set. And I guess I would have to go back and listen to it to see if I could tell, but I think the band was pretty used to making their way through the set without counting on him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Clyde:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m Janet Clyde. I am one of the owners of Vesuvio Cafe in North Beach. I moved here in 1978 when I was 21. I got my first job in San Francisco at The Mabuhay Gardens. I knew how to waitress, I knew how to cocktail, and so it was basically pick up a tray. Dirk right there, he would be at the front, insulting people — What are you wearing, rat fur? He was just the funniest guy. Never took himself or anybody too seriously. And really good to the bands, like really good. You’d come in and it was this long, rectangular room with a low ceiling. Dark, cave-like — really dark — barebones, tables and chairs, bar in the back. You’d walk in and in the front a stage that was only a few feet high. And there was a back seating area that was raised a little bit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>V Vale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> After they removed all of the tables and chairs and seating and all that junk then a lot more people could fit in. Legally, you could maybe cram in 200 people. The most crowded night I remember was some show with both Iggy, Blondie, and David Bowie were there in the audience. And somehow everyone found out about it, and that was the most crowded I’ve ever seen The Mabuhay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Clyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’d go in at 10. There would be no one there at 10 at night, nobody there. But by 11–11:30 it would be packed! And I saw 999, Lene Lovich — I mean, more people than I can count — SVT! It was so much fun, so much fun! Two people stand out — waiting on Bill Graham, who terrified me — and waiting on The Clash, who also terrified me! The Clash, though, when Joe Strummer is asking you for a beer and you are just like, OK, and giving you money and you are trying to think about how to make change for this. Like, my brain has just disappeared. It was amazing! He gave me a $50 bill for the beers. I gave him back like $150 in change. I just could not count — I could not think! And the manager, I will never forget, he just took the money out of Strummer’s hand, put the money back into my hand. And then like you would with a child, counted back the change. Like, how much are the beers? They are this…OK then…here’s $12, $13, $14, $15, $20, $30, $50, boom. I will never forget that, it was the funniest thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Peck:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, what happened was Dirksen started to do some gigs upstairs at the On Broadway. That was pretty successful for a while.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was when MTV was coming in, so there was a whole new chapter.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Peck:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When the big earthquake and the freeway collapsed, that really cut people off from coming there really quickly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Clyde:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I left The Mabuhay after a few years, and time changed on Broadway and they moved the clubs off Broadway.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mindy Bagdon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Venues like [924] Gilman Street in Berkeley developed around that time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Clyde:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t really know what it was like at the very end. I think it just got harder, it just got harder for them. And you know, the scene just changed. And so do we, so do we.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Mindy Bagdon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If it wasn’t for Dirk, punk rock would have started in San Francisco at some point or other anyway, but Dirk really facilitated its rise. He understood what was happening, you know, and he knew how to let it be free.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liz Keim: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It felt intimate to me. I just remember being excited. And that’s a good place to be sometimes when you are that young. Longing and driven — wanting to be nowhere else — and then also just wanting to go crazy, in whatever way that was. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mindy Bagdon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In America, when you get to a certain age, you’re suddenly told by the urban environment, What are you doing there pogo-ing? You are 45 years old, you should be at the PTA meeting. You have to want to find out something about your life to go to these scenes. I have a Philippine friend and it turns out that “Mabuhay” means “welcome”. And it also means “good life”. So it’s funny in that context because that’s what really happened at The Mabuhay, you know. You were welcome — and it was a good life! When Dirk died, I called Bruce (Conner) and told him because the three of us were going to make a film about the totality of the punk scene in San Francisco. That died with both Bruce and Dirk dying. It was very sad for me. I have not recovered from that to this day because Bruce was a very creative artist and Dirk had every connection necessary in the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Peck:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think a lot of people and musicians and artists and everyone contributed. It was a community, even though it was a misfit community. Dirksen was like an entertainer really, definitely the emcee. He was the ringmaster. I had seen that they had named a street in North Beach after the Beat people, so I thought — Well, punk rock man. It was amazing that the punk rockers got a street named. It was right on Broadway and Rowland, like, who is going to get that done with no money? I wanted it to be Dirk Dirksen Alley. Joel Selvin from the [San Francisco] Chronicle helped. It’s a historic plaque. It’s in the ground right in the alley, so they can’t really ever take it out. It talks about Dirk and Ness and The Mabuhay Gardens. It says, Shut up, you animals! He’d be thrilled.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dirk Dirksen:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You have approximately 290 seconds in which to absorb our Filipino family supper club in the…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was Kitchen Sisters producer Brandi Howell. The reopening of the Fab Mab is still in its early stages, so stay tuned for more shows at the venue. Special thanks to Denise Demise Dunne, Liz Keim, Penelope Houston, Ron Greco, John Seabury, V Vale, Janet Clyde, and Kathy Peck. The archival interview with Dirk Dirksen is from Vale’s Vale’s RE/Search Conversations 13. Production support from Mary Franklin Harvin. Bay Curious is produced at Member Supported KQED in San Francisco. Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Bay Curious is made by Gabriela Glueck, Christopher Beale and me, Katrina Schwartz. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Few institutions in San Francisco are as crucial to punk as Mabuhay Gardens. A group of dedicated investors, nightlife veterans and North Beach neighbors is trying to bring the venue back. \r\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Few places are as legendary in San Francisco’s punk scene as Mabuhay Gardens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Located on Broadway, at the edge of North Beach and Chinatown, it was ground zero for the city’s emerging punk movement in the late 1970s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The hybrid Filipino restaurant and music venue hosted bands like the Avengers and the Dead Kennedys — even punk rock icon Patti Smith took the stage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When it closed in 1987, much of the city’s punk history seemed to fade with it. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13980619/mabuhay-gardens-reopening-sf-punk-club-north-beach\">But nearly 40 years later, a group of investors and enthusiasts is working to bring the so-called “Fab Mab” back to life.\u003c/a> We dig into the history and legacy of Mabuhay Gardens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are few places as revered in the San Francisco punk music scene as a place called Mabuhay Gardens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12060034\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/Punk-band-with-Zippy-Pinhead-performing-at-Mabuhay-Gardens-includes-Vince-Deranged-of-Animal-Things-in-the-audience.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12060034\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/Punk-band-with-Zippy-Pinhead-performing-at-Mabuhay-Gardens-includes-Vince-Deranged-of-Animal-Things-in-the-audience.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1000\" height=\"670\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/Punk-band-with-Zippy-Pinhead-performing-at-Mabuhay-Gardens-includes-Vince-Deranged-of-Animal-Things-in-the-audience.jpg 1000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/Punk-band-with-Zippy-Pinhead-performing-at-Mabuhay-Gardens-includes-Vince-Deranged-of-Animal-Things-in-the-audience-160x107.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1000px) 100vw, 1000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Punk band with Zippy Pinhead performing at Mabuhay Gardens; includes Vince Deranged of Animal Things in the audience, 1978. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Mindaugis Bagdon, San Francisco Punk Archive, San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>V Vale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> To play, you need a place, be it where you live, the street, a venue. For unrestricted play, you need an unrestricted playground. Dirk Dirksen envisioned the Fab Mab just as such a playground. Without him and the Mab, there might not have been the great punk scene in the late 1970s in San Francisco. The San Francisco punk scene was fun. I miss it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Located on Broadway, right on the edge of North Beach and Chinatown, Mabuhay Gardens, actually a nightclub, was ground zero for a nascent punk scene in late 1970s San Francisco. Bands like the Avengers, Dead Kennedys, The Nuns, and Patti Smith played there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Announcer:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s gonna part for a woman. I think Patti died. I’m gonna get her for this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Originally a Filipino supper club, Mabuhay Gardens was part of the small but vibrant community known as Manilatown. Redevelopment, gentrification, and other factors in the late 1970s forced many of the Filipino residents of Manilatown out. They moved to other neighborhoods or out of the city entirely. But Mabuhay Gardens remained and took on a surprising new life as a punk club.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Audio from Mabuhay Gardens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Are you ready for some breakdancing right now?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m Katrina Schwartz, and you’re listening to Bay Curious. Today on the show, we’re transporting you back to the epicenter of San Francisco’s ’70s punk scene. And we’ll learn why Mabuhay Gardens was such an important place to so many people. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Legendary punk music venue Mabuhay Gardens, known to fans as the Fab Mab, has been closed since 1987. But it reopened this month to great fanfare from local music lovers. To understand what this place meant to San Francisco’s punk scene, we’re immersing you in 1970s North Beach. Producer Brandi Howell brings us this story, which first aired on the \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://play.prx.org/listen?ge=prx_98_b3e69dbd-c23d-498a-9e79-6ea56ec10ad7&uf=https%3A%2F%2Ffeeds.fugitivewaves.org%2Ffugitivewaves\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kitchen Sisters Presents podcast.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penelope Houston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Mabuhay was not your average rock club.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here was this little club all of a sudden attracting the energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ron Greco: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Dills, Negative Trend, The Avengers…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, of course, you are going to say, “Oh, what is going on over there?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penelope Houston: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">More and more people started coming to town. The Ramones played there. Blondie played there. It just became the punk mecca.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ron Greco: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was real young, I would go by and see this place. It was there for years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The music itself was nothing really developed yet in the very beginning. It was just a supper club. People would do the Mabuhay dance and stuff like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Dirk was helping Ness with the Amapola show. Amapola was this Filipino night club singer, and she was popular within the Filipino community and had a TV show on Channel 26 and a number of characters from The Mab had performed there. My name is Denise Demise Dunne. I was Dirk’s assistant at the very beginning of The Mab.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>V Vale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi, welcome to The Counter Culture Hour. I’m your host, V Vale, and I published starting in ‘77 Search and Destroy, the punk publication chronicling the rise of the punk rock cultural revolution. My guest tonight is Dirk Dirksen, the impresario of The Mabuhay Gardens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dirk Dirksen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were open for 10 years, did 3,600 plus concerts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>V Vale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The thing was at the time, things were so conservative that no club wanted anything to do with punk rock until Dirk Dirksen showed up and made The Mabuhay Gardens available.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dirk Dirksen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ness downstairs at The Mabuhay was having a tough go of it, so I came in and said, Look — how about if you give us Monday nights because that is your dark night. Let me try that, and I will guarantee you $175 a night at the bar. I didn’t have $175 at the time, but I figured there are enough people I know that if I say, “Hey, c’mon down,” and if they each drink two beers, we’ll meet the guarantee. And within a very short time, we were grossing more on the Monday than he was grossing on the weekend with name Filipino acts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mindy Bagdon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My name is Mindy Bagdon. My film’s name is “Louder Faster Shorter”. At one point on Mondays, which was a dead period on the Broadway strip, Dirk convinced Ness Aquino, who owned the club, to let him put on different acts. Little by little, it went from sort of vaudevillian variety acts to where The Nuns, who were one of the first groups to play there, apparently, they went up to Dirk and they found out this venue was available and they said, Well, can we put on a show? And I remember I was walking up Grant Avenue and Vale’s then girlfriend was coming down, and proceeding me was the drummer for The Nuns and he was handing out flyers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>V Vale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My girlfriend who looked like a rocker — I guess I looked like one too, you know with platform shoes and spiked hair and all that junk, just superficial style — my girlfriend was walking down the street and a really short guy said, Hey…feel like coming to our band’s debut at The Mabuhay Gardens, which none of us had heard of because it was Filipino. I’ll put you on the guest list! Those are the magic words for any so-called real punk rocker. So we went, and then the rest is history.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mindy Bagdon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The first time we went to The Mabuhay, there were more people on stage than there were in the audience, because it hadn’t gotten around. But within two weeks, it was packed. I mean, word got around town. Don’t forget this is before the internet, before smartphones; it was literally person-to-person or on the telephone or snail mail to say this venue was doing this. And like I said, within two weeks, it was jammed. The joke was Bruce Conner, the famous artist, said — You’d be watching a band and you said, well, I can do this too. So you’d go home and learn at least one chord on your bass and you’d get on the stand and you were the audience one week and now you are on the stage.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Peck: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Kathy Peck, bass player for The Contractions and the co-founder and executive director of H.E.A.R., Hearing Education Awareness for Rockers. I came here with Don Peck and he was playing drums with Mary Monday. She actually started the punk scene at The Mabuhay Gardens. She was like the first one. There were other people that played there, but she was the one that really…she was amazing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Peck:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She came from a dancer background, but she was really punk. She was just wild! And I would hear stuff at The Mab and see it being played. I loved the music. I got inspired by Mary, and I had a bass — a Hofner Beatle bass. I was learning to play. I was self-taught. Yeah, it was really exciting. People were like, they call it pogo-ing or whatever, slam dancing. It was like very crowded and electrifying.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Dirk at that point asked me to be his assistant, and it was like, Yeah, but I can’t type. Because I basically avoided typing because as a female you get pigeoned-holed into being someone’s assistant. And he said, Well, you don’t have to type that much, and you get to do a lot of things around there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Seabury: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pretty often during the evening, he would be wearing what looks like the Groucho Marx nose with the glasses and eyebrows, except this one had a dildo instead of a nose. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mustache, glasses, a bit overweight. I remember the beige jacket, the beret on his hair, and the poodle in his arms. The was the first time I met Dirk.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Seabury:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> At the end of the evenings, of course, he’d come out on stage and tell everyone to get out, which no one is ever paying attention to. So he had a real police whistle which he would blow as hard as he could through the PA til people would leave. His favorite line was “We can’t make any more money off you, so get out!” I’m John Seabury. I started out playing in a band, Psychotic Pineapple, back in the ’70s, and I’m a graphic artist. I did all of the graphics for the band. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ron Greco:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I went to this nightclub called The Night Break, I guess you go downstairs on Columbus. This guy walks up to me. This big eye ball T-shirt and this big chicken hawk hair, red flaming hair, and he looks at me and says, Do you play guitar? And I say yeah. And so we talk for a little bit, and within 30 days, we each get Marshall stacks. That’s how quick it was. Zoom, zoom, zoom. Before we were Crime, we were the Space Invaders. Ron Greco, Ron “The Ripper” Greco. I had a Gibson Ripper Bass and everybody goes — Man, you rip a lot! Ripper!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I took the job and would come in and help him go through all the paperwork. Listen to some of the demo tapes of the bands that came in. Get their press announcement, like Devo. I still remember it saying, Achtung, De-Revolution has begun!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ron Greco:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I got the band members together and said, Let’s walk in and talk to the owner. We had a good time there talking to him, and so we arranged a show to play.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penelope Houston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In 1977, I moved down to San Francisco to go to the Art Institute in North Beach. And after I got there, I started to see these posters around town for this band called Crime. And they were really intriguing posters and they weren’t like anything I’d ever seen. They were at a club called The Mabuhay. I was 19 at the time, but they let people in 18 or older, but they let people in because it was also a Filipino restaurant, so they were able to let minors in. My name is Penelope Houston, I’m in a band called The Avengers. We started in 1977. That was my first band. I’d been going to these shows and ran into Danny Furious, who ended up being The Avengers drummer. He had a friend in Los Angeles, Greg Ingraham, and he brought Greg to SF to be in a band with him. Danny had rented part of a warehouse out in Dogpatch, and they had a PA set up for their rehearsals. I was staying over there one day, hanging out, and everybody was gone, and I put on some records and started singing through the PA. I just fell in love with the power of amplification. I was like, this is so awesome. I’m so loud, and then when they got back, I said, I’m going to be your singer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liz Keim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When I found the club, I felt at home. I could be exactly who I was and still be part of it. I was freed. My name is Liz Keim and along with Karen Merchant, we created the film, In The Red. It’s a punk document of the late 1970s, mostly filmed at The Mab. For the last 40 years, I’ve also been working at the Exploratorium. I’ve been the director of the Cinema Arts program, and I’m one of the senior curators. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, it was fabulous. There were people that came in for the first time to explore and they were still looking hippie. Then there were folks who had taken on the persona. Leather jacket, jeans, black pants, ripped T-shirts. You’d walk down the corridor, and there were all these little crevices with people hanging out there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liz Keim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re a night creature, looking for that place to be that feels like home.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I was one of those creatures cuz you’re just kind of there and you’re watching. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liz Keim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I went up to UC Davis to study art and that was a kind of isolating experience, when I came back into San Francisco I was looking for an intimacy in some ways. Looking for those smaller landscapes. I started filming. I prefer observing and critically assessing where I’m at, and I was drawn to the experimental film genre, so I wasn’t looking for something that followed a bell-curve narrative or, you know, was scripted outside of any experience I was living in. So for me, it was just capturing a kind of way of being in San Francisco. There were all kinds of relationships that didn’t have to feel permanent, where you didn’t have to have names, there was just something about a recognition.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There was just this excitement. There was the energy back to that word. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liz Keim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was about being in the mosh pit. It was about hanging on to someone I didn’t know just for counterbalance, and it was fine because my counterbalance was as into me as a counterbalance as I was into him or her as a counterbalance. You didn’t have to talk. You know, in some ways, we just talked through our bodies. Maybe The Mab was an analog experience for me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was at KSAN at that point, and Lou Reed came in for an interview; he was playing at the Old Waldorf. And he brought this guy in with him, and the DJ didn’t want to deal with him and said, Well, show him around. So we are talking and I’m showing him around and I’m telling this guy about The Mab and what’s going on cuz Lou has his show and I said, Oh, I’ll take you there. You know, and this was Jim Carroll. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Seabury:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Once we got in the Mabuhay, Dirk was really good to us. He had the sense of humor, he kind of got us. So sometimes he would have us open for someone really inappropriate, like the Jim Carroll Band or somebody like that, just because he was being perverse about it. We opened for Jim Carroll twice. And the second time word was out that Patti Smith was in town playing the old Waldorf and she is probably going to show up and jam. So the Mabuhay was double-packed that night. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Patti Smith, Patti Smith, Patti Smith!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Seabury:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> After the set, we were backstage and Dirk comes up and goes, Hey, you know, Patti Smith is coming. We were like, Yeah yeah, we heard. Well, she needs to borrow a guitar and we were like — No! Because we know she is going to break the guitar.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When Patti played the Mab, it was mesmerizing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Seabury:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Of course, most of the players in the scene at the time would have run home and gotten a guitar just to give to her to smash. Dirk goes off, and he comes back 10 minutes later and goes, Please guys, please….really, just one guitar for Patti. And we were like, No — forget it! So the band was on and Patti did show up, and it was really mobbed and all I could see of the band was the tops of their heads and then I just see the guitar overhead going smash, smash, smash and that was it. And it’s probably in a museum somewhere now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was awestruck. Like, wow! I mean, these are stupid words to come up with because it was just there and here’s this persona mixing this punk with poetry. It was like, yeah, this is it. This is just taking it to a whole different level. Because there were so many levels. There was the fun part, there was the political part, and here is the poetry — here is the art. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liz Keim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hanging outside was like the preamble or whatever. You got your sense of whether it was going to be crowded and what the energy was like. You didn’t just rush in. It was a lingering. The kind of slow meander and then you would hope to just squeeze in and get by admissions. And maybe having enough money for a beer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mindy Bagdon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Early on, people would throw beer bottles at the stage and that was very dangerous. So they actually thought maybe we will put a screen up between the band and the audience but that didn’t sound like a good idea. So then he got the idea, Ah ha — I’m going to make 55-gallon drums of popcorn!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>V Vale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All the super salty popcorn you could eat. I realize later the theory is that this makes you buy drinks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Seabury:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Free popcorn on the tables. It was really old popcorn and it wasn’t for eating — it was for throwing at the bands.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penelope Houston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There would be this big mess of popcorn and jumbled chairs and tables knocked over and it was kind of like a disaster zone.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I remember being in my house and all of a sudden just having this paradigm shift. The music was playing and all of a sudden, WHAP! Like — reality is not the same anymore. All of a sudden something woke up inside of me. I didn’t even know what it was called at that time, but it was like, Oh, something — something just changed here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liz Keim: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Not having much money, it was like, how to get into these places without it. You could sometimes climb in through the front window at The Mab and one time someone came and grabbed me and said, Dirk wants to talk to you in his office. So he goes, You don’t think I see you sneaking in all of the time! You know, no more of that. But it didn’t stop you. It was part of the culture. We were there to just get it however we could.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penelope Houston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The first show we played at The Mab, we had been asked two weeks before if we would play this show — an after-party for The Nuns. Between when we heard about the gig and when we played it, we went to LA and were visiting with friends of mine from Seattle, The Screamers. Tomata du Plenty and Tommy Gear. And I remember Tommy and Tomato saying to me, Oh, you can’t do cover songs. You guys need to write your own songs. So we got back from LA and we had about a week to go and were like, all right, let’s write some original songs. So we sat down and wrote “Car Crash”, “I Believe in Me”, “Teenage Rebel” — maybe six songs, original songs, in that week. Then, when we got up to play our first time on a real stage in front of a real audience — for me anyway — and someone had written the setlist wrong and so the guitar player was playing a different song from the bass player and the drummer. And when the music started, I was like, Oh my god. Oh my god. I can’t do this. I don’t even know what song this is. It just sounds like a big mish-mash. I can’t remember the lyrics and I was so confused and we stopped playing a few seconds later and was like what? What song are we playing? And then they figured it out, and we started playing the same song and I was like, All right, OK. Here’s how it goes and I can actually do this. But for 10 long seconds there, I thought, Oh, it’s all gone out of my head. I can’t do this. This is a nightmare. So then we just piled through the set and some people who were there were like, that was really amazing. And we were like, Oh my god. That was such a car crash. Jan. 14, 1978, we’d been invited to support the [Sex] Pistols. We got there and the place was absolutely sold out. Between 5-and-6,000 people. The biggest show The Sex Pistols ever played and like 10 times bigger than the biggest show we’d ever played. So when The Nuns were up there performing the stage got covered in things people were throwing, and spit, it was just pretty rough. So we walked out after they were done to take our place on stage and the first thing that happened to me was I slipped on the stage because there was so much spit. And I almost hit the ground but I kind of caught myself and made my way carefully to my microphone. There is a video of the whole night. And you can see how when we start we were a little frightened and shaky and scared. And then as are set progressed we just got more and more confident and got stronger til at the end we were feeling pretty awesome. It was crazy because there were so many people there and they were all mashed together. People were getting squeezed out of the audience like pimples. And passed overhead like they were passing out. You’d look out at the sea of faces and see someone you knew and make eye contact with them and a second later they would disappear into the crowd. So it was intense, especially for us. We were used to seeing a lot of our friends right up front singing along with us and this was like a huge number of people who had never seen punk before and were there for the spectacle. You know, the circus. A lot of people out there, it was a pretty intense experience. I think the throwing of things increased when the Sex Pistols got out there because Johnny Rotten egged them on. Someone threw a camera on stage. He was like, Oh, thank you. Like he was really egging them on to throw stuff. It started out terrifying for us and ended up feeling very good. There were rumors that Sid’s bass was not even plugged in for that set. And I guess I would have to go back and listen to it to see if I could tell, but I think the band was pretty used to making their way through the set without counting on him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Clyde:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m Janet Clyde. I am one of the owners of Vesuvio Cafe in North Beach. I moved here in 1978 when I was 21. I got my first job in San Francisco at The Mabuhay Gardens. I knew how to waitress, I knew how to cocktail, and so it was basically pick up a tray. Dirk right there, he would be at the front, insulting people — What are you wearing, rat fur? He was just the funniest guy. Never took himself or anybody too seriously. And really good to the bands, like really good. You’d come in and it was this long, rectangular room with a low ceiling. Dark, cave-like — really dark — barebones, tables and chairs, bar in the back. You’d walk in and in the front a stage that was only a few feet high. And there was a back seating area that was raised a little bit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>V Vale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> After they removed all of the tables and chairs and seating and all that junk then a lot more people could fit in. Legally, you could maybe cram in 200 people. The most crowded night I remember was some show with both Iggy, Blondie, and David Bowie were there in the audience. And somehow everyone found out about it, and that was the most crowded I’ve ever seen The Mabuhay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Clyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’d go in at 10. There would be no one there at 10 at night, nobody there. But by 11–11:30 it would be packed! And I saw 999, Lene Lovich — I mean, more people than I can count — SVT! It was so much fun, so much fun! Two people stand out — waiting on Bill Graham, who terrified me — and waiting on The Clash, who also terrified me! The Clash, though, when Joe Strummer is asking you for a beer and you are just like, OK, and giving you money and you are trying to think about how to make change for this. Like, my brain has just disappeared. It was amazing! He gave me a $50 bill for the beers. I gave him back like $150 in change. I just could not count — I could not think! And the manager, I will never forget, he just took the money out of Strummer’s hand, put the money back into my hand. And then like you would with a child, counted back the change. Like, how much are the beers? They are this…OK then…here’s $12, $13, $14, $15, $20, $30, $50, boom. I will never forget that, it was the funniest thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Peck:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, what happened was Dirksen started to do some gigs upstairs at the On Broadway. That was pretty successful for a while.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denise Demise Dunne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was when MTV was coming in, so there was a whole new chapter.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Peck:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When the big earthquake and the freeway collapsed, that really cut people off from coming there really quickly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Clyde:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I left The Mabuhay after a few years, and time changed on Broadway and they moved the clubs off Broadway.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mindy Bagdon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Venues like [924] Gilman Street in Berkeley developed around that time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Clyde:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t really know what it was like at the very end. I think it just got harder, it just got harder for them. And you know, the scene just changed. And so do we, so do we.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Mindy Bagdon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If it wasn’t for Dirk, punk rock would have started in San Francisco at some point or other anyway, but Dirk really facilitated its rise. He understood what was happening, you know, and he knew how to let it be free.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liz Keim: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It felt intimate to me. I just remember being excited. And that’s a good place to be sometimes when you are that young. Longing and driven — wanting to be nowhere else — and then also just wanting to go crazy, in whatever way that was. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mindy Bagdon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In America, when you get to a certain age, you’re suddenly told by the urban environment, What are you doing there pogo-ing? You are 45 years old, you should be at the PTA meeting. You have to want to find out something about your life to go to these scenes. I have a Philippine friend and it turns out that “Mabuhay” means “welcome”. And it also means “good life”. So it’s funny in that context because that’s what really happened at The Mabuhay, you know. You were welcome — and it was a good life! When Dirk died, I called Bruce (Conner) and told him because the three of us were going to make a film about the totality of the punk scene in San Francisco. That died with both Bruce and Dirk dying. It was very sad for me. I have not recovered from that to this day because Bruce was a very creative artist and Dirk had every connection necessary in the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Peck:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think a lot of people and musicians and artists and everyone contributed. It was a community, even though it was a misfit community. Dirksen was like an entertainer really, definitely the emcee. He was the ringmaster. I had seen that they had named a street in North Beach after the Beat people, so I thought — Well, punk rock man. It was amazing that the punk rockers got a street named. It was right on Broadway and Rowland, like, who is going to get that done with no money? I wanted it to be Dirk Dirksen Alley. Joel Selvin from the [San Francisco] Chronicle helped. It’s a historic plaque. It’s in the ground right in the alley, so they can’t really ever take it out. It talks about Dirk and Ness and The Mabuhay Gardens. It says, Shut up, you animals! He’d be thrilled.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dirk Dirksen:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You have approximately 290 seconds in which to absorb our Filipino family supper club in the…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was Kitchen Sisters producer Brandi Howell. The reopening of the Fab Mab is still in its early stages, so stay tuned for more shows at the venue. Special thanks to Denise Demise Dunne, Liz Keim, Penelope Houston, Ron Greco, John Seabury, V Vale, Janet Clyde, and Kathy Peck. The archival interview with Dirk Dirksen is from Vale’s Vale’s RE/Search Conversations 13. Production support from Mary Franklin Harvin. Bay Curious is produced at Member Supported KQED in San Francisco. Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Bay Curious is made by Gabriela Glueck, Christopher Beale and me, Katrina Schwartz. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"headTitle": "Why Are There So Many Motels on San Francisco’s Lombard Street? | KQED",
"labelTerm": {},
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lombard Street is one of San Francisco’s most iconic thoroughfares.[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003cbr>\nBeautiful mansions and carefully trimmed hedges frame the winding brick lane. But after the curves end, the street continues, heading all the way to the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’ve ever driven along this stretch through the Marina district, you might have noticed that dozens of motels dot the thoroughfare. Why so many in one place? That’s what Bay Curious question asker Nick Glasser wanted to know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As is so often the case, San Francisco’s built environment is a product of its past. By the 1920s, America had entered the age of automobiles and highways began to connect places that had once seemed distant. And, in the early 1930s, engineers started planning for the construction of what was, at the time, going to be the longest suspension bridge in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now one of San Francisco’s most iconic landmarks, the Golden Gate Bridge would stretch across the channel of water between Marin County and San Francisco, formerly only connected by boat. And Lombard Street would be the main approach road leading to the bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12058836\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 945px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/LombardBrod.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12058836\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/LombardBrod.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"945\" height=\"774\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/LombardBrod.jpg 945w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/LombardBrod-160x131.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 945px) 100vw, 945px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A photo of the Marina Motel, on the corner of Lombard and Broderick streets, in 1940. Built by the son of a California Gold Rush miner, the historic Marina Motel was built to celebrate the opening of the Golden Gate Bridge in the late 1930s and is still run by the same family. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Back in 1939, Heidi Detjen’s grandfather could see the writing on the wall: when the bridge opened, visitors with cars would flood into San Francisco. They — and their cars — would need a place to stay. In 1939, just two years after the Bridge inauguration, he opened up the first motor lodge on Lombard Street. It was called the Marina Motel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He came out of retirement to build this after visiting a motor court yard,” Detjen said. Motor lodges offered direct access to the parking lot from each unit, making it an ideal choice for auto-crazed Americans.[aside postID=news_11907457 hero='https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2022/03/garden-from-above-1020x574.jpeg']When the bridge opened, the once quiet, 2-lane Lombard Street was transformed into a buzzing thoroughfare. The city soon decided to widen the road to six lanes of traffic. To do that, they had to raze the buildings on the south side of Lombard to make space for the bigger road. That meant when the road construction was done, there were many open lots of land available to purchase.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s when all these other motels appeared,” Detjen said. “In the old days, people literally got off the Golden Gate Bridge, and they went from motel to motel to motel to try to get the best rate.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Marina Motel is still in business today. Detjen has kept it in the family, bringing it with her into the 21st century. “I feel like I’m kind of holding up the legacy,” Detjen said. “My family has owned it since the 1930s, and I’m the third generation doing it, and now my daughters are involved as well. There’s a lot of heart that goes into this place.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is Bay Curious, the podcast that answers your questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. I’m Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s hard to imagine life here in the Bay without the bridges that allow us to crisscross the water. Thousands of us do it every day. Sometimes it’s a real pain.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Newscaster:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have a real traffic mess on the Bay Bridge eastbound.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Newscaster: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thousands of drivers got home late tonight after a protest over vaccine mandates sparked a chaotic scene.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Newscaster: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We continue to track major delays across the San Mateo Bridge; this has just been the headache of the morning.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But since we all spend so much time sitting in bridge traffic, we get lots of questions about things you’ve noticed from your car windows. Like:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Why are there so many motels on Lombard Street as it approaches the Golden Gate Bridge?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What was the original San Mateo-Hayward Bridge like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today on the show, it’s a bridge-focused lightning round where we answer several of your questions. First, we’re going to tackle why there are so many motels on Lombard Street, and then we’re moving south to a bridge that doesn’t always get the recognition it deserves. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These days, Lombard Street is best known for the short section that wiggles down a steep hill, beautiful mansions on each side. Cars line up for the chance to drive it. But just down the way from there, Lombard becomes a main thoroughfare to the Golden Gate Bridge. And dotted along it are dozens of motels. Why so many in one place? Bay Curious reporter and sound engineer Christopher Beale went to find out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I thought the most obvious place to start to answer this question was to take a look for myself, so my partner and I decided to take a little drive down Lombard Street and just count how many hotels we saw.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re gonna start at Franklin. I’m just curious how many we are going to get, there’s two and we haven’t even turned onto Lombard yet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We drove west, towards the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right, so there’s the San Francisco Bay Inn, the La Casa Inn.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Montage of counting motels\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, counting all of these might take a while. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Reagan Rockzsfforde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, you look on that side and I will look on this side.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll check in on this later, let’s get to the other part of the question. Why are these motels, or motor lodges, here in the first place?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the 1920s, Americans were falling in love with the automobile, and highways began to snake across the United States, connecting people from coast to coast like never before.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the early ’30s, plans were in place to build what was, at the time, the longest suspension bridge in the world, right here in San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Golden Gate Bridge would stretch across a narrow, deep channel of water long known as The Golden Gate, soaring high above the water, and allowing automobile traffic from Marin County into San Francisco. Lombard Street was going to be the main approach road for this massive bridge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Detjen:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There wasn’t a lot of people who lived over there then, so it was not a very busy road.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is Heidi Detjen. She is the owner of the first motor lodge to pop up on Lombard Street, it’s called the Marina Motel and Heidi’s grandfather started welcoming guests in 1939, just two years after the Golden Gate Bridge opened. Now, of course, her grandfather didn’t invent the concept of a motor lodge but…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Detjen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He came out of retirement to build this after visiting a motor courtyard, I wanna say maybe Niagara Falls or something.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A motor lodge, or a motel is a hotel that is specifically targeted at motorists, they usually offer direct access to the parking lot from the unit vs having to enter and exit through a more traditional hotel’s central lobby.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Heidi’s granddad believed that the Golden Gate Bridge would bring people in cars who needed a place to sleep, and that a motor lodge was just the thing to service those motorists. And boy was he right! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once the bridge opened, Lombard Street got really busy, really fast! The Marina Motel was perfectly situated to take advantage of all that traffic along sleepy Lombard Street.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Detjen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When they built this place, it was just a two-lane road with a lot of multi-story shingled housing along it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But right after the bridge opened, officials decided to expand Lombard Street.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Detjen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they pushed it from a two-lane road into a six-lane road.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The south side of the street was bulldozed to make room for the new lanes of traffic. But the Marina Motel is on the north side of Lombard, closer to the Bay and the Palace of Fine Arts, so it wasn’t directly impacted until the road was finished, that is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Detjen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s when all these other motels appeared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s rare for land to be available at that scale in San Francisco, and before long, dozens of motor lodges of varying quality and price dotted the south side of Lombard Street, giving the Marina Motel some very real competition.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Detjen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the old days, people literally got off the Golden Gate Bridge, and they went from motel to motel to motel to try to get the best rate. Unfortunately, then we were on the wrong side. So as people were coming over the Golden Gate Bridge into San Francisco, they would go all to the motels on the other side, and we stood empty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Marina Motel would go through ups and downs, but is still there today, and still in the family. Business has gotten easier thanks to the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Detjen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nowadays, people can look your pictures up online. So we get a clientele who really appreciates that and appreciates the historic significance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that covers how Lombard’s motor lodges got to be there in the first place, but just how many are we talking about here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is by no means an official count, but on our single road trip down Lombard that day, between Franklin and Chestnut streets, my partner and I counted…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">24, like old motor lodge style motels in just a mile or so. Yeah, I think that qualifies as a high concentration, don’t you? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Reagan Rockzsfforde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, we’ve all heard the headlines about how hotels aren’t doing so well in a post-COVID era, but Heidi’s family has weathered ups and downs in the business before.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why do this in 2025?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Detjen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, this is the best business ever. People come here, they’re on vacation, they’re happy. I go home and I tell my family about it at the dinner table, like, oh, I met this scientist…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The traffic from the Golden Gate Bridge is why these hotels popped up in the first place, and though these motor lodges are sort of a relic of a bygone era, Heidi said these days business is still thriving, possibly because of that fact. Nostalgia is in, so is free parking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Detjen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel like I’m kind of holding up the legacy. My family has owned it since the 1930s, and I’m the third generation doing it, and now my daughters are involved as well. There’s a lot of heart that goes into this place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was Bay Curious reporter and sound engineer Christopher Beale.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We just heard about the huge impact the Golden Gate Bridge had on the Marina neighborhood of San Francisco, now we’re going to turn to a bridge that doesn’t get nearly the same hype as its International Orange friend.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The San Mateo-Hayward Bridge. Today, it’s a fairly unassuming workhorse bridge. But did you know the original actually preceded the Golden Gate Bridge by almost a decade? It was once the longest bridge in North America. And one of the skinniest!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kathleen McKusick of Redwood City used to work in biotech near Bridgeview Park in Foster City. Which is how she came to ask us this question:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathleen McKusick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I stumbled across a remnant of the 1929 San Mateo Bridge about a dozen years ago. I would love to know more about that original bridge in its heyday. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Built in 1929 and then called the San Francisco Bay Toll-Bridge, we sent KQED’s Rachael Myrow to check it out. This story first aired in 2023.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you’ve walked or cycled along the Bay Trail on the Peninsula, you know it passes under the San Mateo-Hayward Bridge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathleen McKusick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My daughter and I were here on the weekend to ride bikes on the Bay Trail, and we went on the bikes a little farther than I usually went on foot, and here was this astonishing little piece of a bridge. Which raised all kinds of questions in my mind.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kathleen McKusick Googled it, naturally, as did I, and there just isn’t a whole lot out there. The best resource? One article written a few years ago for the Hayward Historical Society, an article written by this guy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> John Christian, formerly an archivist at the Hayward Historical Society.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We all met at the Bridgeview Park, where you can spy a little stub of the old bridge alongside the big new one. It’s a noisy park. You can hear the traffic from the new bridge, not to mention planes flying overhead from SFO.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is the first time I’ve been over here. I guess I’m too Hayward-centric. But yeah, I’ve never really seen it from this side, to be honest.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to Christian, the Hayward-San Mateo Bridge was originally proposed in 1922 by the Oakland Chamber of Commerce as a way to jump-start commerce between the Peninsula and the East Bay. Construction began in December of 1927. Flash forward to March 2, 1929, and we have…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Old-timey music\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The grand opening of what was then called the San Francisco Bay Toll-Bridge! Now, quick production note. 1929 is a tricky time for sound reporters in the Bay. Much of the news footage from that era was still silent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Archival recording of Calvin Coolidge talking\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What talkies there were typically brought sound to big, national news stories. But the Bridge opening in 1929 was a big deal for the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of Morse code being sent over a telegraph\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then-President Calvin Coolidge participated in the dedication by pressing a telegraph button in Washington, D.C., that directed the unfurling of an American flag from the bridge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of a flag unfurling sound, crowd says “Ahhhh”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then-San Francisco Mayor James Rolph, who was known to love attending celebrations of almost any kind, was the biggest local celebrity to show up in person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of 1929 Ford AA Truck engine starting up\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Not unlike the Golden Gate Bridge to the north, this bridge helped farmers get their goods to market. In the 1920s, the region on both sides of the Bay was rural, as opposed to suburban, as it is today. Farms, orchards, canneries, salt harvesting. And maybe because it wasn’t designed primarily for commuter traffic, I think it’s worth noting that the original bridge was only 30 feet wide with just two lanes, and about 7 miles long.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Looking at the new bridge, I mean, compared to the old bridge, this bridge is a monster. You know, this is like, six lanes. The original bridge would have been just two lanes, back and forth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in the field): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Petite, and also, I have to say, terrifying. Right? Two lanes, two lanes only, one going in one direction, one in the other. 30 feet wide, going over, over the Bay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dramatic music swells\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, it must have, I guess, you know, probably it was kind of fun, I guess. But yeah, probably a little horrifying.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in the field): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Especially if there’s a stiff wind? Picking up off the water?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in the field): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driving a Model T Ford?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Nobody was blown into the water, as far as I can tell.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fun fact: The original toll was 45 cents, about $8 in today’s money! So, Christian says, adjusted for inflation, it was more expensive to cross in 1929 than it is today! Takes the sting out of today’s $7 toll? Or maybe not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anyways, it wasn’t long before newspaper articles were calling the old bridge “antique.” By 1954, 7,400 cars and trucks were crossing every day. Because the rural towns on either side of the Bay did become suburbs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it was a small bridge taking you to a small place, you know? And now it’s like, this massive, like, you know, city center to city center. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the biggest complaint about this bridge was not how slender it was, but the electric drawbridge that went up on average 6 times a day to let marine traffic pass underneath. That brought cars and trucks on the bridge to a standstill.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So in 1961, the groundwork was laid for the construction of a wider, taller bridge, to be built just a few feet north of the original span. The old bridge was dismantled, piece by piece, except for the small bit you can still see from Bridgeview Park today. According to the state’s Department of Transportation, by the way, the new bridge is still the longest bridge in California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in the field): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So now that you know the full story, any thoughts?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathleen McKusick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really wish that the pier were open and I could walk out onto the bridge. That would be a dream come true.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That story was reported by KQED’s Rachael Myrow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Both of the questions in this episode won Bay Curious voting rounds. We’ve got a new set of questions up on our website right now, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Head on over to cast your vote for what we should answer next. And be sure you follow Bay Curious so you never miss a new episode. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Bay Curious is made by Gabriela Glueck, Christopher Beale and me, Katrina Schwartz. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "If you’ve ever driven along this stretch through San Francisco's Marina neighborhood towards the Golden Gate Bridge, you might have noticed that dozens of motels dot the thoroughfare. Why so many in one place?",
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"title": "Why Are There So Many Motels on San Francisco’s Lombard Street? | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lombard Street is one of San Francisco’s most iconic thoroughfares.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cbr>\nBeautiful mansions and carefully trimmed hedges frame the winding brick lane. But after the curves end, the street continues, heading all the way to the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’ve ever driven along this stretch through the Marina district, you might have noticed that dozens of motels dot the thoroughfare. Why so many in one place? That’s what Bay Curious question asker Nick Glasser wanted to know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As is so often the case, San Francisco’s built environment is a product of its past. By the 1920s, America had entered the age of automobiles and highways began to connect places that had once seemed distant. And, in the early 1930s, engineers started planning for the construction of what was, at the time, going to be the longest suspension bridge in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now one of San Francisco’s most iconic landmarks, the Golden Gate Bridge would stretch across the channel of water between Marin County and San Francisco, formerly only connected by boat. And Lombard Street would be the main approach road leading to the bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12058836\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 945px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/LombardBrod.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12058836\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/LombardBrod.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"945\" height=\"774\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/LombardBrod.jpg 945w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/LombardBrod-160x131.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 945px) 100vw, 945px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A photo of the Marina Motel, on the corner of Lombard and Broderick streets, in 1940. Built by the son of a California Gold Rush miner, the historic Marina Motel was built to celebrate the opening of the Golden Gate Bridge in the late 1930s and is still run by the same family. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Back in 1939, Heidi Detjen’s grandfather could see the writing on the wall: when the bridge opened, visitors with cars would flood into San Francisco. They — and their cars — would need a place to stay. In 1939, just two years after the Bridge inauguration, he opened up the first motor lodge on Lombard Street. It was called the Marina Motel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He came out of retirement to build this after visiting a motor court yard,” Detjen said. Motor lodges offered direct access to the parking lot from each unit, making it an ideal choice for auto-crazed Americans.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>When the bridge opened, the once quiet, 2-lane Lombard Street was transformed into a buzzing thoroughfare. The city soon decided to widen the road to six lanes of traffic. To do that, they had to raze the buildings on the south side of Lombard to make space for the bigger road. That meant when the road construction was done, there were many open lots of land available to purchase.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s when all these other motels appeared,” Detjen said. “In the old days, people literally got off the Golden Gate Bridge, and they went from motel to motel to motel to try to get the best rate.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Marina Motel is still in business today. Detjen has kept it in the family, bringing it with her into the 21st century. “I feel like I’m kind of holding up the legacy,” Detjen said. “My family has owned it since the 1930s, and I’m the third generation doing it, and now my daughters are involved as well. There’s a lot of heart that goes into this place.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is Bay Curious, the podcast that answers your questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. I’m Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s hard to imagine life here in the Bay without the bridges that allow us to crisscross the water. Thousands of us do it every day. Sometimes it’s a real pain.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Newscaster:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have a real traffic mess on the Bay Bridge eastbound.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Newscaster: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thousands of drivers got home late tonight after a protest over vaccine mandates sparked a chaotic scene.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Newscaster: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We continue to track major delays across the San Mateo Bridge; this has just been the headache of the morning.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But since we all spend so much time sitting in bridge traffic, we get lots of questions about things you’ve noticed from your car windows. Like:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Why are there so many motels on Lombard Street as it approaches the Golden Gate Bridge?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What was the original San Mateo-Hayward Bridge like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today on the show, it’s a bridge-focused lightning round where we answer several of your questions. First, we’re going to tackle why there are so many motels on Lombard Street, and then we’re moving south to a bridge that doesn’t always get the recognition it deserves. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These days, Lombard Street is best known for the short section that wiggles down a steep hill, beautiful mansions on each side. Cars line up for the chance to drive it. But just down the way from there, Lombard becomes a main thoroughfare to the Golden Gate Bridge. And dotted along it are dozens of motels. Why so many in one place? Bay Curious reporter and sound engineer Christopher Beale went to find out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I thought the most obvious place to start to answer this question was to take a look for myself, so my partner and I decided to take a little drive down Lombard Street and just count how many hotels we saw.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re gonna start at Franklin. I’m just curious how many we are going to get, there’s two and we haven’t even turned onto Lombard yet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We drove west, towards the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right, so there’s the San Francisco Bay Inn, the La Casa Inn.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Montage of counting motels\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, counting all of these might take a while. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Reagan Rockzsfforde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, you look on that side and I will look on this side.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll check in on this later, let’s get to the other part of the question. Why are these motels, or motor lodges, here in the first place?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the 1920s, Americans were falling in love with the automobile, and highways began to snake across the United States, connecting people from coast to coast like never before.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the early ’30s, plans were in place to build what was, at the time, the longest suspension bridge in the world, right here in San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Golden Gate Bridge would stretch across a narrow, deep channel of water long known as The Golden Gate, soaring high above the water, and allowing automobile traffic from Marin County into San Francisco. Lombard Street was going to be the main approach road for this massive bridge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Detjen:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There wasn’t a lot of people who lived over there then, so it was not a very busy road.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is Heidi Detjen. She is the owner of the first motor lodge to pop up on Lombard Street, it’s called the Marina Motel and Heidi’s grandfather started welcoming guests in 1939, just two years after the Golden Gate Bridge opened. Now, of course, her grandfather didn’t invent the concept of a motor lodge but…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Detjen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He came out of retirement to build this after visiting a motor courtyard, I wanna say maybe Niagara Falls or something.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A motor lodge, or a motel is a hotel that is specifically targeted at motorists, they usually offer direct access to the parking lot from the unit vs having to enter and exit through a more traditional hotel’s central lobby.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Heidi’s granddad believed that the Golden Gate Bridge would bring people in cars who needed a place to sleep, and that a motor lodge was just the thing to service those motorists. And boy was he right! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once the bridge opened, Lombard Street got really busy, really fast! The Marina Motel was perfectly situated to take advantage of all that traffic along sleepy Lombard Street.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Detjen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When they built this place, it was just a two-lane road with a lot of multi-story shingled housing along it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But right after the bridge opened, officials decided to expand Lombard Street.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Detjen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they pushed it from a two-lane road into a six-lane road.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The south side of the street was bulldozed to make room for the new lanes of traffic. But the Marina Motel is on the north side of Lombard, closer to the Bay and the Palace of Fine Arts, so it wasn’t directly impacted until the road was finished, that is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Detjen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s when all these other motels appeared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s rare for land to be available at that scale in San Francisco, and before long, dozens of motor lodges of varying quality and price dotted the south side of Lombard Street, giving the Marina Motel some very real competition.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Detjen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the old days, people literally got off the Golden Gate Bridge, and they went from motel to motel to motel to try to get the best rate. Unfortunately, then we were on the wrong side. So as people were coming over the Golden Gate Bridge into San Francisco, they would go all to the motels on the other side, and we stood empty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Marina Motel would go through ups and downs, but is still there today, and still in the family. Business has gotten easier thanks to the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Detjen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nowadays, people can look your pictures up online. So we get a clientele who really appreciates that and appreciates the historic significance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that covers how Lombard’s motor lodges got to be there in the first place, but just how many are we talking about here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is by no means an official count, but on our single road trip down Lombard that day, between Franklin and Chestnut streets, my partner and I counted…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">24, like old motor lodge style motels in just a mile or so. Yeah, I think that qualifies as a high concentration, don’t you? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Reagan Rockzsfforde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, we’ve all heard the headlines about how hotels aren’t doing so well in a post-COVID era, but Heidi’s family has weathered ups and downs in the business before.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why do this in 2025?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Detjen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, this is the best business ever. People come here, they’re on vacation, they’re happy. I go home and I tell my family about it at the dinner table, like, oh, I met this scientist…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The traffic from the Golden Gate Bridge is why these hotels popped up in the first place, and though these motor lodges are sort of a relic of a bygone era, Heidi said these days business is still thriving, possibly because of that fact. Nostalgia is in, so is free parking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Detjen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel like I’m kind of holding up the legacy. My family has owned it since the 1930s, and I’m the third generation doing it, and now my daughters are involved as well. There’s a lot of heart that goes into this place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was Bay Curious reporter and sound engineer Christopher Beale.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We just heard about the huge impact the Golden Gate Bridge had on the Marina neighborhood of San Francisco, now we’re going to turn to a bridge that doesn’t get nearly the same hype as its International Orange friend.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The San Mateo-Hayward Bridge. Today, it’s a fairly unassuming workhorse bridge. But did you know the original actually preceded the Golden Gate Bridge by almost a decade? It was once the longest bridge in North America. And one of the skinniest!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kathleen McKusick of Redwood City used to work in biotech near Bridgeview Park in Foster City. Which is how she came to ask us this question:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathleen McKusick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I stumbled across a remnant of the 1929 San Mateo Bridge about a dozen years ago. I would love to know more about that original bridge in its heyday. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Built in 1929 and then called the San Francisco Bay Toll-Bridge, we sent KQED’s Rachael Myrow to check it out. This story first aired in 2023.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you’ve walked or cycled along the Bay Trail on the Peninsula, you know it passes under the San Mateo-Hayward Bridge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathleen McKusick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My daughter and I were here on the weekend to ride bikes on the Bay Trail, and we went on the bikes a little farther than I usually went on foot, and here was this astonishing little piece of a bridge. Which raised all kinds of questions in my mind.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kathleen McKusick Googled it, naturally, as did I, and there just isn’t a whole lot out there. The best resource? One article written a few years ago for the Hayward Historical Society, an article written by this guy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> John Christian, formerly an archivist at the Hayward Historical Society.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We all met at the Bridgeview Park, where you can spy a little stub of the old bridge alongside the big new one. It’s a noisy park. You can hear the traffic from the new bridge, not to mention planes flying overhead from SFO.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is the first time I’ve been over here. I guess I’m too Hayward-centric. But yeah, I’ve never really seen it from this side, to be honest.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to Christian, the Hayward-San Mateo Bridge was originally proposed in 1922 by the Oakland Chamber of Commerce as a way to jump-start commerce between the Peninsula and the East Bay. Construction began in December of 1927. Flash forward to March 2, 1929, and we have…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Old-timey music\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The grand opening of what was then called the San Francisco Bay Toll-Bridge! Now, quick production note. 1929 is a tricky time for sound reporters in the Bay. Much of the news footage from that era was still silent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Archival recording of Calvin Coolidge talking\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What talkies there were typically brought sound to big, national news stories. But the Bridge opening in 1929 was a big deal for the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of Morse code being sent over a telegraph\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then-President Calvin Coolidge participated in the dedication by pressing a telegraph button in Washington, D.C., that directed the unfurling of an American flag from the bridge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of a flag unfurling sound, crowd says “Ahhhh”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then-San Francisco Mayor James Rolph, who was known to love attending celebrations of almost any kind, was the biggest local celebrity to show up in person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of 1929 Ford AA Truck engine starting up\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Not unlike the Golden Gate Bridge to the north, this bridge helped farmers get their goods to market. In the 1920s, the region on both sides of the Bay was rural, as opposed to suburban, as it is today. Farms, orchards, canneries, salt harvesting. And maybe because it wasn’t designed primarily for commuter traffic, I think it’s worth noting that the original bridge was only 30 feet wide with just two lanes, and about 7 miles long.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Looking at the new bridge, I mean, compared to the old bridge, this bridge is a monster. You know, this is like, six lanes. The original bridge would have been just two lanes, back and forth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in the field): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Petite, and also, I have to say, terrifying. Right? Two lanes, two lanes only, one going in one direction, one in the other. 30 feet wide, going over, over the Bay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dramatic music swells\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, it must have, I guess, you know, probably it was kind of fun, I guess. But yeah, probably a little horrifying.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in the field): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Especially if there’s a stiff wind? Picking up off the water?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in the field): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driving a Model T Ford?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Nobody was blown into the water, as far as I can tell.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fun fact: The original toll was 45 cents, about $8 in today’s money! So, Christian says, adjusted for inflation, it was more expensive to cross in 1929 than it is today! Takes the sting out of today’s $7 toll? Or maybe not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anyways, it wasn’t long before newspaper articles were calling the old bridge “antique.” By 1954, 7,400 cars and trucks were crossing every day. Because the rural towns on either side of the Bay did become suburbs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it was a small bridge taking you to a small place, you know? And now it’s like, this massive, like, you know, city center to city center. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the biggest complaint about this bridge was not how slender it was, but the electric drawbridge that went up on average 6 times a day to let marine traffic pass underneath. That brought cars and trucks on the bridge to a standstill.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So in 1961, the groundwork was laid for the construction of a wider, taller bridge, to be built just a few feet north of the original span. The old bridge was dismantled, piece by piece, except for the small bit you can still see from Bridgeview Park today. According to the state’s Department of Transportation, by the way, the new bridge is still the longest bridge in California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in the field): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So now that you know the full story, any thoughts?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathleen McKusick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really wish that the pier were open and I could walk out onto the bridge. That would be a dream come true.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That story was reported by KQED’s Rachael Myrow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Both of the questions in this episode won Bay Curious voting rounds. We’ve got a new set of questions up on our website right now, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Head on over to cast your vote for what we should answer next. And be sure you follow Bay Curious so you never miss a new episode. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Bay Curious is made by Gabriela Glueck, Christopher Beale and me, Katrina Schwartz. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "stairways-crisscross-the-hills-of-san-francisco-heres-why-people-love-them",
"title": "Stairways Crisscross the Hills of San Francisco. Here's Why People Love Them",
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"headTitle": "Stairways Crisscross the Hills of San Francisco. Here’s Why People Love Them | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> is widely considered \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/entertainment/article/CITY-OF-HILLS-With-50-plus-hills-it-s-no-2676064.php\">one of the hilliest cities in the world.\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003cbr>\nBut all this elevation gain comes with a price: stairs. The city boasts more than \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/201107221000/urban-stairs-of-the-bay-area\">900 public stairways\u003c/a> — everything from winding wooden paths to mosaiced climbs. It’s a charming urban feature that’s given rise to a community of stair enthusiasts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week’s question asker, George Krause, is one of many San Francisco stair admirers. He’s a photographer, and he stumbled upon the stairways during his work trips to the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Between shoots in San Francisco … [I’d] ride public transportation to a neighborhood that I had not been to before, and then just walk the streets with my camera doing street photography,” Krause said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Every neighborhood in San Francisco has got these hidden stairway walks, Castro and Potrero Hill and Excelsior and you name it … they’re everywhere. So it’s like a free, fun thing to do.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12053514\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250730_BAY-CURIOUS_-STAIRS_-0008_GH-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12053514\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250730_BAY-CURIOUS_-STAIRS_-0008_GH-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250730_BAY-CURIOUS_-STAIRS_-0008_GH-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250730_BAY-CURIOUS_-STAIRS_-0008_GH-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250730_BAY-CURIOUS_-STAIRS_-0008_GH-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The twists and turns of Oakhurst Lane snake up the hillside, offering one of San Francisco’s longest and most hidden climbs on July 30, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>All this got him wondering. What’s the shortest stairway in San Francisco? What’s the longest? What’s the steepest?\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Shortest Stairway\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When it comes to measuring the city’s stairways, there’s a lot more debate than data. I sat down with one of the city’s leading stair enthusiasts, Alexandra Kenin, to try to get to the bottom of it all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kenin claims to have walked 99.99% of all the city’s stairs. She’s also compiled a \u003ca href=\"https://www.urbanhikersf.com/sfstairmap\">digital stairway map.\u003c/a>[aside postID=news_11907457 hero='https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2022/03/garden-from-above-1020x574.jpeg']According to Kenin, San Francisco’s shortest stair is a single step in the city’s Financial District. It’s on Sansome Street, between Broadway and Pacific.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s literally railings like you would have on a multi-step stairway, yet there is just one stair,” Kenin said. “So it kind of looks like a stairway, because there’s stairway infrastructure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some people would not call this one step a stairway; others would swear that it is. San Francisco Public Works, which maintains public rights of way, including stairs, offers an alternative. They list the city’s shortest stair as a five-stepper at \u003ca href=\"https://maps.app.goo.gl/yTWf4T9d8a7XXxHD6\">14th Avenue and Fanning Way.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Longest Stairway\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>If you ask most San Franciscans to name the city’s longest stairway, they’ll probably point you towards \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11907457/how-the-filbert-steps-came-to-be-an-oasis-in-san-francisco\">the famous Filbert or Greenwich steps\u003c/a>. Located in the Telegraph Hill neighborhood, they both offer scenic climbs up to Coit Tower.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But there’s a catch: those stairways are broken up by roads.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12053513\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250730_BAY-CURIOUS_-STAIRS_-0005_GH-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12053513\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250730_BAY-CURIOUS_-STAIRS_-0005_GH-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250730_BAY-CURIOUS_-STAIRS_-0005_GH-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250730_BAY-CURIOUS_-STAIRS_-0005_GH-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250730_BAY-CURIOUS_-STAIRS_-0005_GH-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Alex Kenin pauses at the top of Oakhurst Lane, the longest staircase in San Francisco, on July 30, 2025. The staircase winds through the Forest Knolls neighborhood. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“So we should debate, is it the longest continuous stairway?” Kenin queried. Or is it the most total steps?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Public Works, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfstairways.com/stairways/oakhurst-lane/\">Oakhurst Lane stairs\u003c/a> are actually the longest. They’re on the sloping hillside of Mount Sutro near Laguna Honda Hospital. Unlike the Telegraph Hill steps, Oakhurst Lane is uninterrupted — a steady climb that amounts to an estimated 290 feet. That’s roughly 10 feet higher than the Filbert and Greenwich steps.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Steepest Stairway\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Nailing down San Francisco’s steepest staircase is even trickier. Public works doesn’t track the steepest stairways, and it’s hard to pull together accurate data about the city’s stairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But based on some Geographic Information System (GIS) mapping endeavors and Kenin’s real-life experience, here are a few top contenders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The Filbert Street Steps:\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\nThese steps are scenic and punishing, climbing through lush gardens up Telegraph Hill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11907460\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/03/Eric-Johnson-sized.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11907460\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/03/Eric-Johnson-sized.jpg\" alt=\"A man in a red t-shirt, sunglasses and backpack poses on a set of wooden steps with a lush garden to his right.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/03/Eric-Johnson-sized.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/03/Eric-Johnson-sized-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/03/Eric-Johnson-sized-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/03/Eric-Johnson-sized-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/03/Eric-Johnson-sized-1536x864.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bay Curious listener Eric Johnson poses on the Filbert steps. \u003ccite>(Katrina Schwartz/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The Normandie Terrace Steps:\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\nThis little-known but dizzying flight of stairs connects one street to a cul-de-sac far above.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12056079\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0015_GH-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12056079\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0015_GH-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0015_GH-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0015_GH-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0015_GH-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stairs connect Vallejo Street between Divisadero and Scott streets to the north end of Normandie Terrace in San Francisco’s Pacific Heights neighborhood on Sept. 10, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>22nd Street and Vicksburg Steps:\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\nThis block is one of the steepest streets in the city. The grade? An estimated 31.5%. The sidewalk is a stairway.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12056076\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0002_GH-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12056076\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0002_GH-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0002_GH-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0002_GH-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0002_GH-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A man makes his way up the staircase at 22nd and Vicksburg streets on Sept. 10, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Iron Alley Steps:\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\nThis steep stairway is no joke. One stair \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfstairways.com/stairways/iron-alley-clayton-street-to-corbett-avenue/\">database \u003c/a>lists measurements that amount to a 51% grade slope.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12056078\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0011_GH-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12056078\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0011_GH-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0011_GH-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0011_GH-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0011_GH-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Wooden stairs connect Clayton Street near Market Street to Corbett Avenue at Iron Alley in San Francisco’s Upper Market/Twin Peaks neighborhood on Sept. 10, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Why People Love San Francisco’s Stairs\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For Kenin, stairway walks aren’t just about exercise or views. They’re about connecting with the city in a more mindful way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You get a visceral experience,” she said. “It all of a sudden becomes quieter. You can see beauty with your eyes. You might smell a jasmine plant that is blooming in someone’s lawn right next to the stairway. … You could hear a hummingbird float by.”[aside postID=news_11185731 hero='https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2016/11/2924064112_df11d9e7ec_o-1180x785.jpg']The stairs also offer a link to San Francisco’s history. Back in the day, when people got around on horseback, stairs were a practical pedestrian solution. Some streets were just too steep for horse-drawn carriages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s kind of a cool connection to the past because people have been going up and down these stairways, probably some of them since the 1800s,” Kenin said. “So I like that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re interested in walking some of San Francisco’s most iconic stairs, \u003ca href=\"https://www.urbanhikersf.com/sfstairmap\">check out Kenin’s stairway map to chart out a route of your own.\u003c/a> And, October happens to be \u003ca href=\"https://sanfranciscoparksalliance.org/our-work/programs-events/sf-stairway-month/\">“SF Stairway Month,”\u003c/a> a new thing that started in 2024. So, it’s the perfect time to get out and explore!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Almost every day when I get home from work I strap on a baby carrier and take my one year old daughter, Esme, out for a walk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>So, Esme and I are walking up the Franconia Street Steps in Bernal Heights.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of Esme humming\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>Look at that, Esme, you can see the fog comin’ in. Isn’t it beautiful?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Esme babbling sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Some of the stairways we take have swings on them. Others are beautifully cared for, with terraced gardens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>Hello. We love your steps, they’re so beautiful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>All have sweeping views.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>Phew, at the top of the hill now\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Esme sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>San Francisco has countless winding pathways like this, from simple wooden stairs to mosaiced climbs and utilitarian concrete steps. It’s incredibly charming and a delightful surprise to many visitors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Krause: \u003c/strong>Every neighborhood in San Francisco has got these hidden stairway watch Castro and Potrero Hill and Excelsior and you name it. You know, there’s, they’re everywhere. So it’s like a free, fun thing to do, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Our question asker this week, George Krause, is a photographer. He often comes to the city for work and likes to spend time on the stairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Krause: \u003c/strong>When I wasn’t shooting, you know, between shoots in San Francisco. That’s basically what I did — ride public transportation to a neighborhood that I had not been to before, and then just walk the streets with my camera, doing street photography.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>San Francisco is one of the hilliest cities in the world — and stairs are often the most direct way to get from A to B.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All this got George wondering. …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Krause:\u003c/strong> What is the longest stairway in San Francisco? What is the shortest? What is the steepest?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>George’s question won a Bay Curious voting round, so we know many of you are stair-curious too!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, we’re devoting the show to walking San Francisco’s iconic stairways. We’ll meet some stair lovers and see what’s powering their uphill devotion. Then we’ll talk with a map expert to try and answer some basic questions about the city’s stairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Katrina Schwartz, you’re listening to Bay Curious. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>With more than 900 public stairways, it’s safe to say that San Francisco is a city of stairs. But when it comes to measuring them, there’s a lot more debate than data. Pinpointing the longest, the shortest, and the steepest stairways turned out to be a bigger challenge than we imagined, but Bay Curious producer Gabriela Glueck was up to the job. She met up with one stair fanatic to get some answers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> Alexandra Kenin is a quintessential stair enthusiast. She claims to have hiked 99.99% of all the city’s stairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s an obsession that started back in 2007, when she first moved to San Francisco and started leafing through some guidebooks her dad had given her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin:\u003c/strong> So he gave me, at the time, what was popular, which was a Zagat guide for restaurants, and he gave me Stairway Walks in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>Stairway Walks in San Francisco \u003c/em>was written by Adah Bakalinsky, the so-called Queen of San Francisco’s stairs. It’s got step-by-step directions to find hidden stairways, gives background info on neighborhood history and generally celebrates this unique side of San Francisco life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Alex, that book became a lifesaver when the coronavirus pandemic hit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin:\u003c/strong> You know, we were stuck at home, and I was kind of going stir crazy. My partner and I found ourselves juggling a one and a half year old between meetings, and it was really stressful, and we needed a stress release.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>So, she started walking, following Adah’s directions. Her quest? Walk \u003cem>all\u003c/em> of the city’s stairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin:\u003c/strong> You get a visceral experience …It all of a sudden becomes quieter. You can see beauty with your eyes. You might smell a jasmine plant that is blooming in someone’s lawn right next to the stairway. You could hear a hummingbird float by.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The stairs also offer a window into the city’s past. Back in the day, when people got around on horseback, stairs were a practical pedestrian solution. Some streets were just too steep for horse-drawn carriages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin: \u003c/strong>And it’s kind of a cool connection to the past, because people have been going up and down these stairways, probably, some of them, since the 1800s, so I like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But Alex has also brought stair walking into the 21st century with an online map that features many of Adah’s favorites as well as some new ones. If there’s anyone who can help me figure out the longest, shortest and steepest stairway — it’s Alex.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll start with the shortest. Sansome Street, between Broadway and Pacific\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin:\u003c/strong> There is literally a random one step, which makes me laugh. …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The Sansome Street step is on the edge of the city’s Financial District, with a nice view of the Transamerica Pyramid in the background. And then, the single stair.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin: \u003c/strong>There’s literally railings like you would have on a multi-step stairway, yet there is just one stair. So it kind of looks like a stairway, because there’s stairway infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene:\u003c/strong> So here I am at the shortest staircase in San Francisco. It is just one step. For the sake of journalism, I’m gonna walk it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of taking a step\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>I feel like this is a good place to talk about the definition of a stairway. Some people would \u003cem>not\u003c/em> call this one-step a staircase … others would swear that it is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin:\u003c/strong> It really depends on your definition of a stairway. So I didn’t know if I should put that in there, but it is a stair. So I did want to include it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Many people define a stairway as two or more steps. Alex says there are plenty of two-steppers throughout the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But according to San Francisco Public Works — which maintains public rights of way, including stairs — the shortest stair is a five-stepper at 14th Avenue and Fanning Way. Do with that what you will.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Next, the longest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin:\u003c/strong> So I think it’s either the Filbert or Greenwich Street steps going up to Telegraph Hill. …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The Filbert and Greenwich Street steps are many people’s first guesses. They both offer scenic climbs up to Coit Tower. The lush Filbert Street steps are also home to a famous flock of parrots featured in film, “The Wild Parrots of Telegraph Hill.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Parrot sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But — and this is where things started to get even trickier — how do you define “the longest?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin: OK\u003c/strong>, so we should debate, is it the longest continuous stairway? So when you do the Filbert or Greenwich Street steps, you are crossing various roads. So does that count?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Or is it the most total steps?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin:\u003c/strong> Those two stairways, Greenwich Street steps, Filbert Street steps, are around 380 to 390.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>According to Public Works, the Oakhurst Lane stairs — on Mount Sutro near Laguna Honda Hospital — are actually the longest. That’s because, unlike Filbert and Greenwich, the lane is a continuous stairway; there aren’t roads in the middle breaking it apart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It has fewer total steps, but climbs an estimated 290 feet. Making it the longest continuous stairway in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, Alex and I headed to Mount Sutro to check it out for ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin:\u003c/strong> Alright, here we go. We’re climbing the first flight of stairs. We’ve got some concrete steps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of climbing stairs\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin:\u003c/strong> It’s a foggy day. The eucalyptus trees are swaying. It’s a very atmospheric day. And if you take a look, it’s kind of funny. There’s moss growing on the stairs. I’m pretty sure it’s foggy here a lot of the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As we make our way up the steps, the city kind of fades away. It feels like an isolated residential path, sandwiched between houses. And, like many San Francisco stairs, it’s cared for by community members.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rick:\u003c/strong> I’m just clipping the poison oak so people can walk up and down Oakhurst Lane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>This is Rick, Alex and I ran into him on our walk. He lives in the neighborhood and has been walking the lane for 30 years. He’s seen all kinds of people on these steps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rick: \u003c/strong>There was one guy, he was training to go up Mount Whitney, and he put on this really heavy pack, and I think he went up and down like 15 times. But this guy was sweating, and he was just like, step by step by step. …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>OK, we’ve been to the shortest and longest stairways and my legs are officially warmed up. Time for part three of the question. What is the steepest stair? Or, as our question asker George reframed it, what’s the most challenging one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is where I started to run into some \u003cem>real\u003c/em> trouble.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin: \u003c/strong>This is a thing that people debate. What is the steepest Street in San Francisco? I can find 10 articles on the internet right now telling me different streets are the steepest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>There are a lot of close contenders and not a lot of accurate measuring going on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When I asked Public Works about the steepest stairway, one representative said that quote, “We don’t track the steepest but likely will capture that in a longer-term asset management initiative.” Translation: they don’t know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But this seemed like the kind of problem you could answer, if only you had a digital mapping specialist in your corner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Medeiros: \u003c/strong>OK, the analysis question that I’m trying to answer is, which San Francisco City staircase is the steepest?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>David Medeiros is a geospatial reference and instruction specialist at Stanford. Basically, a map expert.Which is why I sent him a city data set dedicated to structures in the public right-of-way, including stairs. Then I asked him for help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Medeiros: \u003c/strong>So, from a technical standpoint, the process is not difficult. So, you just need one other piece of data, and that’s an elevation model for the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>David’s plan? Take a map of all the stairs and overlay it on a map of the city’s peaks and valleys and boom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Medeiros: \u003c/strong>OK, I have QGIS open, and I’m going to add the data sets now. … I’m going to bring in the 1-meter digital elevation model for San Francisco. \u003cem>(Fades under)\u003c/em> First, I’m going to go grab the SF stairs, or the stairs structures, line features and overlay them on the digital elevation model.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>I’m fast forwarding here, but once he’s got the two maps, it’s a simple slope calculation. Rise over run.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Medeiros: \u003c/strong>So now I have a list or a table of the slope, the percent slopes for all of these things that the city has in this structures data set, that includes stairs and viaducts and retaining walls and that sort of stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene:\u003c/strong> And what is the steepest stair? What did you find?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>If you thought this was gonna be the payoff moment — so did I. But no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we started looking at our top steep contenders on Google Street View, many of them just didn’t look that steep.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Medeiros: \u003c/strong>The more difficult part of it is the data itself. It’s the staircase data is a mess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>David says the lengths weren’t precise enough. That the public right-of-way info is more like a rough sketch. Not the kind of picture you could build a case on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Medeiros: \u003c/strong>So I feel like, I feel like I failed a little bit, in a sense, like the all the work that we did, all the information it, the the actual workflow is fine. It works. The underlying elevation data is a good resource. It’s just that we don’t have good data for the stairs, the real stairs, what they really look like in the real world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>According to David, this data-to-real-world gap is a pretty common digital mapping challenge. Sometimes there’s no substitute for just going to see for yourself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene:\u003c/strong> So I’m at the first stop on the steepest stair tour, and we are at the Glendale street stairs, and they look pretty, pretty steep.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>With the help of David’s data, Alex’s real-world experience, and countless internet searches, I compiled a list of top five \u003cem>potentially\u003c/em> — and I emphasize potentially — steepest stairs in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, I devoted an entire day to \u003cem>walking all of them.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first one? Glendale street stairs in Twin Peaks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene:\u003c/strong> They’re kind of boring. …They’re in between two apartment buildings, and below it is this really steep road.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of walking\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene:\u003c/strong> OK, so I’m at the second stair stop on this steep stairs journey, and I’m at the Normandy terrace stairs in Pacific Heights. They’re very grand, they kind of zigzag up a vertical wall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of walking up steps\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene, out of breath:\u003c/strong> You can see the bay and kind of the whole expanse of the city stretching out before you. And it is a pretty good view. And recommend you\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene:\u003c/strong> All right, I’m walking over to our next stair stop, and it’s 22nd Street and Vicksburg.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>These stairs are in Noe Valley… a small stretch of the 22nd street incline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene: \u003c/strong>So these are pretty amazing. It’s on an extremely steep San Francisco street, and the … basically, the sidewalk is a staircase. They’ve carved out stairs in the concrete because it’s just … it’s just too steep to walk by yourself. So here goes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>This block is one of the steepest streets in the city. The grade? An estimated 31.5%. As local resident Laura tells me, it’s enough to make drivers change their plans. Also, she says it’s a prime spot for shenanigans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura: \u003c/strong>Halloween? People roll pumpkins down the hill. …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene:\u003c/strong> So I’m here at the Iron Alley stairways in the Twin Peaks neighborhood, and this one looks pretty steep, not gonna lie, goes straight down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Iron Alley is no joke. Averaging numbers from one stair website and my own online mapping endeavors, I’m estimating something around a 46- to-51% grade slope.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene and out of breath: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>1.2.3.4.5.6. …\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Given the information available and my experience walking them, I think Iron Alley might be the steepest stairway. Some neighborhood gardeners I met on the stairs seemed to agree.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Neighbor: \u003c/strong>Man, you take a tumble, you could be going all the way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>I have to say that defining the longest, shortest, and steepest stairs in San Francisco ended up being a lot harder than I’d imagined.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And in some ways, besides the point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>First stair love note:\u003c/strong> Really, I love stairs because they are a vital part of urban infrastructure, they are beautiful, they are a great workout, they give you a sense of accomplishment when you climb them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Second stair love note: \u003c/strong>It feels like I’m living in a game or story universe where I’m discovering new pieces of the map\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Third stair love note:\u003c/strong> My favorite hike is starting in the Forest Knolls neighborhood. The stairs are green and floating and surrounded by eucalyptus trees\u003cspan style=\"text-decoration: line-through;\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fourth stair love note:\u003c/strong> they are so beautiful and surprising and mysterious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Those were stair love notes from Bay Curious listeners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That story was brought to you by producer Gabriela Glueck. If you were listening closely, you may have noticed that Gabriela said she was going to walk the five steepest stairways, but she only talked about 4. You’re right! The fifth contender was the Filbert Street steps, but \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11907457/how-the-filbert-steps-came-to-be-an-oasis-in-san-francisco\">we have an entire episode about the history of that stairway \u003c/a>and the beautiful garden that runs next to it. I’ll put a link in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is produced at member-supported KQED in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is made by Gabriela Glueck, Christopher Beale and me, Katrina Schwartz.\u003cbr>\nWith extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
"blocks": [],
"excerpt": "San Francisco neighborhoods are known for steep hills and stairways to help residents navigate. Whether it’s Bernal Heights, Mount Sutro, Noe Valley or Telegraph Hill, we went on an adventure to find the shortest, longest and steepest stairways.",
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"title": "Stairways Crisscross the Hills of San Francisco. Here's Why People Love Them | KQED",
"description": "San Francisco neighborhoods are known for steep hills and stairways to help residents navigate. Whether it’s Bernal Heights, Mount Sutro, Noe Valley or Telegraph Hill, we went on an adventure to find the shortest, longest and steepest stairways.",
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"headline": "Stairways Crisscross the Hills of San Francisco. Here's Why People Love Them",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> is widely considered \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/entertainment/article/CITY-OF-HILLS-With-50-plus-hills-it-s-no-2676064.php\">one of the hilliest cities in the world.\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cbr>\nBut all this elevation gain comes with a price: stairs. The city boasts more than \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/201107221000/urban-stairs-of-the-bay-area\">900 public stairways\u003c/a> — everything from winding wooden paths to mosaiced climbs. It’s a charming urban feature that’s given rise to a community of stair enthusiasts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week’s question asker, George Krause, is one of many San Francisco stair admirers. He’s a photographer, and he stumbled upon the stairways during his work trips to the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Between shoots in San Francisco … [I’d] ride public transportation to a neighborhood that I had not been to before, and then just walk the streets with my camera doing street photography,” Krause said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Every neighborhood in San Francisco has got these hidden stairway walks, Castro and Potrero Hill and Excelsior and you name it … they’re everywhere. So it’s like a free, fun thing to do.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12053514\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250730_BAY-CURIOUS_-STAIRS_-0008_GH-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12053514\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250730_BAY-CURIOUS_-STAIRS_-0008_GH-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250730_BAY-CURIOUS_-STAIRS_-0008_GH-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250730_BAY-CURIOUS_-STAIRS_-0008_GH-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250730_BAY-CURIOUS_-STAIRS_-0008_GH-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The twists and turns of Oakhurst Lane snake up the hillside, offering one of San Francisco’s longest and most hidden climbs on July 30, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>All this got him wondering. What’s the shortest stairway in San Francisco? What’s the longest? What’s the steepest?\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Shortest Stairway\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When it comes to measuring the city’s stairways, there’s a lot more debate than data. I sat down with one of the city’s leading stair enthusiasts, Alexandra Kenin, to try to get to the bottom of it all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kenin claims to have walked 99.99% of all the city’s stairs. She’s also compiled a \u003ca href=\"https://www.urbanhikersf.com/sfstairmap\">digital stairway map.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>According to Kenin, San Francisco’s shortest stair is a single step in the city’s Financial District. It’s on Sansome Street, between Broadway and Pacific.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s literally railings like you would have on a multi-step stairway, yet there is just one stair,” Kenin said. “So it kind of looks like a stairway, because there’s stairway infrastructure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some people would not call this one step a stairway; others would swear that it is. San Francisco Public Works, which maintains public rights of way, including stairs, offers an alternative. They list the city’s shortest stair as a five-stepper at \u003ca href=\"https://maps.app.goo.gl/yTWf4T9d8a7XXxHD6\">14th Avenue and Fanning Way.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Longest Stairway\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>If you ask most San Franciscans to name the city’s longest stairway, they’ll probably point you towards \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11907457/how-the-filbert-steps-came-to-be-an-oasis-in-san-francisco\">the famous Filbert or Greenwich steps\u003c/a>. Located in the Telegraph Hill neighborhood, they both offer scenic climbs up to Coit Tower.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But there’s a catch: those stairways are broken up by roads.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12053513\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250730_BAY-CURIOUS_-STAIRS_-0005_GH-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12053513\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250730_BAY-CURIOUS_-STAIRS_-0005_GH-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250730_BAY-CURIOUS_-STAIRS_-0005_GH-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250730_BAY-CURIOUS_-STAIRS_-0005_GH-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250730_BAY-CURIOUS_-STAIRS_-0005_GH-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Alex Kenin pauses at the top of Oakhurst Lane, the longest staircase in San Francisco, on July 30, 2025. The staircase winds through the Forest Knolls neighborhood. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“So we should debate, is it the longest continuous stairway?” Kenin queried. Or is it the most total steps?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Public Works, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfstairways.com/stairways/oakhurst-lane/\">Oakhurst Lane stairs\u003c/a> are actually the longest. They’re on the sloping hillside of Mount Sutro near Laguna Honda Hospital. Unlike the Telegraph Hill steps, Oakhurst Lane is uninterrupted — a steady climb that amounts to an estimated 290 feet. That’s roughly 10 feet higher than the Filbert and Greenwich steps.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Steepest Stairway\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Nailing down San Francisco’s steepest staircase is even trickier. Public works doesn’t track the steepest stairways, and it’s hard to pull together accurate data about the city’s stairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But based on some Geographic Information System (GIS) mapping endeavors and Kenin’s real-life experience, here are a few top contenders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The Filbert Street Steps:\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\nThese steps are scenic and punishing, climbing through lush gardens up Telegraph Hill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11907460\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/03/Eric-Johnson-sized.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11907460\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/03/Eric-Johnson-sized.jpg\" alt=\"A man in a red t-shirt, sunglasses and backpack poses on a set of wooden steps with a lush garden to his right.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/03/Eric-Johnson-sized.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/03/Eric-Johnson-sized-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/03/Eric-Johnson-sized-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/03/Eric-Johnson-sized-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/03/Eric-Johnson-sized-1536x864.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bay Curious listener Eric Johnson poses on the Filbert steps. \u003ccite>(Katrina Schwartz/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The Normandie Terrace Steps:\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\nThis little-known but dizzying flight of stairs connects one street to a cul-de-sac far above.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12056079\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0015_GH-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12056079\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0015_GH-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0015_GH-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0015_GH-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0015_GH-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stairs connect Vallejo Street between Divisadero and Scott streets to the north end of Normandie Terrace in San Francisco’s Pacific Heights neighborhood on Sept. 10, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>22nd Street and Vicksburg Steps:\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\nThis block is one of the steepest streets in the city. The grade? An estimated 31.5%. The sidewalk is a stairway.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12056076\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0002_GH-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12056076\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0002_GH-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0002_GH-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0002_GH-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0002_GH-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A man makes his way up the staircase at 22nd and Vicksburg streets on Sept. 10, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Iron Alley Steps:\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\nThis steep stairway is no joke. One stair \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfstairways.com/stairways/iron-alley-clayton-street-to-corbett-avenue/\">database \u003c/a>lists measurements that amount to a 51% grade slope.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12056078\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0011_GH-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12056078\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0011_GH-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0011_GH-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0011_GH-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250911_BAY-CURIOUS-STAIRS-0011_GH-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Wooden stairs connect Clayton Street near Market Street to Corbett Avenue at Iron Alley in San Francisco’s Upper Market/Twin Peaks neighborhood on Sept. 10, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Why People Love San Francisco’s Stairs\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For Kenin, stairway walks aren’t just about exercise or views. They’re about connecting with the city in a more mindful way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You get a visceral experience,” she said. “It all of a sudden becomes quieter. You can see beauty with your eyes. You might smell a jasmine plant that is blooming in someone’s lawn right next to the stairway. … You could hear a hummingbird float by.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>The stairs also offer a link to San Francisco’s history. Back in the day, when people got around on horseback, stairs were a practical pedestrian solution. Some streets were just too steep for horse-drawn carriages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s kind of a cool connection to the past because people have been going up and down these stairways, probably some of them since the 1800s,” Kenin said. “So I like that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re interested in walking some of San Francisco’s most iconic stairs, \u003ca href=\"https://www.urbanhikersf.com/sfstairmap\">check out Kenin’s stairway map to chart out a route of your own.\u003c/a> And, October happens to be \u003ca href=\"https://sanfranciscoparksalliance.org/our-work/programs-events/sf-stairway-month/\">“SF Stairway Month,”\u003c/a> a new thing that started in 2024. So, it’s the perfect time to get out and explore!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Almost every day when I get home from work I strap on a baby carrier and take my one year old daughter, Esme, out for a walk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>So, Esme and I are walking up the Franconia Street Steps in Bernal Heights.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of Esme humming\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>Look at that, Esme, you can see the fog comin’ in. Isn’t it beautiful?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Esme babbling sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Some of the stairways we take have swings on them. Others are beautifully cared for, with terraced gardens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>Hello. We love your steps, they’re so beautiful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>All have sweeping views.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>Phew, at the top of the hill now\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Esme sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>San Francisco has countless winding pathways like this, from simple wooden stairs to mosaiced climbs and utilitarian concrete steps. It’s incredibly charming and a delightful surprise to many visitors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Krause: \u003c/strong>Every neighborhood in San Francisco has got these hidden stairway watch Castro and Potrero Hill and Excelsior and you name it. You know, there’s, they’re everywhere. So it’s like a free, fun thing to do, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Our question asker this week, George Krause, is a photographer. He often comes to the city for work and likes to spend time on the stairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Krause: \u003c/strong>When I wasn’t shooting, you know, between shoots in San Francisco. That’s basically what I did — ride public transportation to a neighborhood that I had not been to before, and then just walk the streets with my camera, doing street photography.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>San Francisco is one of the hilliest cities in the world — and stairs are often the most direct way to get from A to B.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All this got George wondering. …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Krause:\u003c/strong> What is the longest stairway in San Francisco? What is the shortest? What is the steepest?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>George’s question won a Bay Curious voting round, so we know many of you are stair-curious too!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, we’re devoting the show to walking San Francisco’s iconic stairways. We’ll meet some stair lovers and see what’s powering their uphill devotion. Then we’ll talk with a map expert to try and answer some basic questions about the city’s stairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Katrina Schwartz, you’re listening to Bay Curious. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>With more than 900 public stairways, it’s safe to say that San Francisco is a city of stairs. But when it comes to measuring them, there’s a lot more debate than data. Pinpointing the longest, the shortest, and the steepest stairways turned out to be a bigger challenge than we imagined, but Bay Curious producer Gabriela Glueck was up to the job. She met up with one stair fanatic to get some answers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> Alexandra Kenin is a quintessential stair enthusiast. She claims to have hiked 99.99% of all the city’s stairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s an obsession that started back in 2007, when she first moved to San Francisco and started leafing through some guidebooks her dad had given her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin:\u003c/strong> So he gave me, at the time, what was popular, which was a Zagat guide for restaurants, and he gave me Stairway Walks in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>Stairway Walks in San Francisco \u003c/em>was written by Adah Bakalinsky, the so-called Queen of San Francisco’s stairs. It’s got step-by-step directions to find hidden stairways, gives background info on neighborhood history and generally celebrates this unique side of San Francisco life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Alex, that book became a lifesaver when the coronavirus pandemic hit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin:\u003c/strong> You know, we were stuck at home, and I was kind of going stir crazy. My partner and I found ourselves juggling a one and a half year old between meetings, and it was really stressful, and we needed a stress release.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>So, she started walking, following Adah’s directions. Her quest? Walk \u003cem>all\u003c/em> of the city’s stairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin:\u003c/strong> You get a visceral experience …It all of a sudden becomes quieter. You can see beauty with your eyes. You might smell a jasmine plant that is blooming in someone’s lawn right next to the stairway. You could hear a hummingbird float by.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The stairs also offer a window into the city’s past. Back in the day, when people got around on horseback, stairs were a practical pedestrian solution. Some streets were just too steep for horse-drawn carriages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin: \u003c/strong>And it’s kind of a cool connection to the past, because people have been going up and down these stairways, probably, some of them, since the 1800s, so I like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But Alex has also brought stair walking into the 21st century with an online map that features many of Adah’s favorites as well as some new ones. If there’s anyone who can help me figure out the longest, shortest and steepest stairway — it’s Alex.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll start with the shortest. Sansome Street, between Broadway and Pacific\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin:\u003c/strong> There is literally a random one step, which makes me laugh. …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The Sansome Street step is on the edge of the city’s Financial District, with a nice view of the Transamerica Pyramid in the background. And then, the single stair.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin: \u003c/strong>There’s literally railings like you would have on a multi-step stairway, yet there is just one stair. So it kind of looks like a stairway, because there’s stairway infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene:\u003c/strong> So here I am at the shortest staircase in San Francisco. It is just one step. For the sake of journalism, I’m gonna walk it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of taking a step\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>I feel like this is a good place to talk about the definition of a stairway. Some people would \u003cem>not\u003c/em> call this one-step a staircase … others would swear that it is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin:\u003c/strong> It really depends on your definition of a stairway. So I didn’t know if I should put that in there, but it is a stair. So I did want to include it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Many people define a stairway as two or more steps. Alex says there are plenty of two-steppers throughout the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But according to San Francisco Public Works — which maintains public rights of way, including stairs — the shortest stair is a five-stepper at 14th Avenue and Fanning Way. Do with that what you will.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Next, the longest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin:\u003c/strong> So I think it’s either the Filbert or Greenwich Street steps going up to Telegraph Hill. …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The Filbert and Greenwich Street steps are many people’s first guesses. They both offer scenic climbs up to Coit Tower. The lush Filbert Street steps are also home to a famous flock of parrots featured in film, “The Wild Parrots of Telegraph Hill.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Parrot sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But — and this is where things started to get even trickier — how do you define “the longest?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin: OK\u003c/strong>, so we should debate, is it the longest continuous stairway? So when you do the Filbert or Greenwich Street steps, you are crossing various roads. So does that count?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Or is it the most total steps?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin:\u003c/strong> Those two stairways, Greenwich Street steps, Filbert Street steps, are around 380 to 390.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>According to Public Works, the Oakhurst Lane stairs — on Mount Sutro near Laguna Honda Hospital — are actually the longest. That’s because, unlike Filbert and Greenwich, the lane is a continuous stairway; there aren’t roads in the middle breaking it apart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It has fewer total steps, but climbs an estimated 290 feet. Making it the longest continuous stairway in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, Alex and I headed to Mount Sutro to check it out for ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin:\u003c/strong> Alright, here we go. We’re climbing the first flight of stairs. We’ve got some concrete steps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of climbing stairs\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin:\u003c/strong> It’s a foggy day. The eucalyptus trees are swaying. It’s a very atmospheric day. And if you take a look, it’s kind of funny. There’s moss growing on the stairs. I’m pretty sure it’s foggy here a lot of the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As we make our way up the steps, the city kind of fades away. It feels like an isolated residential path, sandwiched between houses. And, like many San Francisco stairs, it’s cared for by community members.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rick:\u003c/strong> I’m just clipping the poison oak so people can walk up and down Oakhurst Lane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>This is Rick, Alex and I ran into him on our walk. He lives in the neighborhood and has been walking the lane for 30 years. He’s seen all kinds of people on these steps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rick: \u003c/strong>There was one guy, he was training to go up Mount Whitney, and he put on this really heavy pack, and I think he went up and down like 15 times. But this guy was sweating, and he was just like, step by step by step. …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>OK, we’ve been to the shortest and longest stairways and my legs are officially warmed up. Time for part three of the question. What is the steepest stair? Or, as our question asker George reframed it, what’s the most challenging one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is where I started to run into some \u003cem>real\u003c/em> trouble.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexandra Kenin: \u003c/strong>This is a thing that people debate. What is the steepest Street in San Francisco? I can find 10 articles on the internet right now telling me different streets are the steepest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>There are a lot of close contenders and not a lot of accurate measuring going on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When I asked Public Works about the steepest stairway, one representative said that quote, “We don’t track the steepest but likely will capture that in a longer-term asset management initiative.” Translation: they don’t know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But this seemed like the kind of problem you could answer, if only you had a digital mapping specialist in your corner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Medeiros: \u003c/strong>OK, the analysis question that I’m trying to answer is, which San Francisco City staircase is the steepest?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>David Medeiros is a geospatial reference and instruction specialist at Stanford. Basically, a map expert.Which is why I sent him a city data set dedicated to structures in the public right-of-way, including stairs. Then I asked him for help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Medeiros: \u003c/strong>So, from a technical standpoint, the process is not difficult. So, you just need one other piece of data, and that’s an elevation model for the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>David’s plan? Take a map of all the stairs and overlay it on a map of the city’s peaks and valleys and boom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Medeiros: \u003c/strong>OK, I have QGIS open, and I’m going to add the data sets now. … I’m going to bring in the 1-meter digital elevation model for San Francisco. \u003cem>(Fades under)\u003c/em> First, I’m going to go grab the SF stairs, or the stairs structures, line features and overlay them on the digital elevation model.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>I’m fast forwarding here, but once he’s got the two maps, it’s a simple slope calculation. Rise over run.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Medeiros: \u003c/strong>So now I have a list or a table of the slope, the percent slopes for all of these things that the city has in this structures data set, that includes stairs and viaducts and retaining walls and that sort of stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene:\u003c/strong> And what is the steepest stair? What did you find?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>If you thought this was gonna be the payoff moment — so did I. But no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we started looking at our top steep contenders on Google Street View, many of them just didn’t look that steep.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Medeiros: \u003c/strong>The more difficult part of it is the data itself. It’s the staircase data is a mess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>David says the lengths weren’t precise enough. That the public right-of-way info is more like a rough sketch. Not the kind of picture you could build a case on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Medeiros: \u003c/strong>So I feel like, I feel like I failed a little bit, in a sense, like the all the work that we did, all the information it, the the actual workflow is fine. It works. The underlying elevation data is a good resource. It’s just that we don’t have good data for the stairs, the real stairs, what they really look like in the real world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>According to David, this data-to-real-world gap is a pretty common digital mapping challenge. Sometimes there’s no substitute for just going to see for yourself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene:\u003c/strong> So I’m at the first stop on the steepest stair tour, and we are at the Glendale street stairs, and they look pretty, pretty steep.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>With the help of David’s data, Alex’s real-world experience, and countless internet searches, I compiled a list of top five \u003cem>potentially\u003c/em> — and I emphasize potentially — steepest stairs in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, I devoted an entire day to \u003cem>walking all of them.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first one? Glendale street stairs in Twin Peaks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene:\u003c/strong> They’re kind of boring. …They’re in between two apartment buildings, and below it is this really steep road.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of walking\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene:\u003c/strong> OK, so I’m at the second stair stop on this steep stairs journey, and I’m at the Normandy terrace stairs in Pacific Heights. They’re very grand, they kind of zigzag up a vertical wall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of walking up steps\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene, out of breath:\u003c/strong> You can see the bay and kind of the whole expanse of the city stretching out before you. And it is a pretty good view. And recommend you\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene:\u003c/strong> All right, I’m walking over to our next stair stop, and it’s 22nd Street and Vicksburg.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>These stairs are in Noe Valley… a small stretch of the 22nd street incline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene: \u003c/strong>So these are pretty amazing. It’s on an extremely steep San Francisco street, and the … basically, the sidewalk is a staircase. They’ve carved out stairs in the concrete because it’s just … it’s just too steep to walk by yourself. So here goes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>This block is one of the steepest streets in the city. The grade? An estimated 31.5%. As local resident Laura tells me, it’s enough to make drivers change their plans. Also, she says it’s a prime spot for shenanigans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura: \u003c/strong>Halloween? People roll pumpkins down the hill. …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene:\u003c/strong> So I’m here at the Iron Alley stairways in the Twin Peaks neighborhood, and this one looks pretty steep, not gonna lie, goes straight down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Iron Alley is no joke. Averaging numbers from one stair website and my own online mapping endeavors, I’m estimating something around a 46- to-51% grade slope.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene and out of breath: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>1.2.3.4.5.6. …\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Given the information available and my experience walking them, I think Iron Alley might be the steepest stairway. Some neighborhood gardeners I met on the stairs seemed to agree.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Neighbor: \u003c/strong>Man, you take a tumble, you could be going all the way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>I have to say that defining the longest, shortest, and steepest stairs in San Francisco ended up being a lot harder than I’d imagined.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And in some ways, besides the point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>First stair love note:\u003c/strong> Really, I love stairs because they are a vital part of urban infrastructure, they are beautiful, they are a great workout, they give you a sense of accomplishment when you climb them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Second stair love note: \u003c/strong>It feels like I’m living in a game or story universe where I’m discovering new pieces of the map\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Third stair love note:\u003c/strong> My favorite hike is starting in the Forest Knolls neighborhood. The stairs are green and floating and surrounded by eucalyptus trees\u003cspan style=\"text-decoration: line-through;\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fourth stair love note:\u003c/strong> they are so beautiful and surprising and mysterious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Those were stair love notes from Bay Curious listeners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That story was brought to you by producer Gabriela Glueck. If you were listening closely, you may have noticed that Gabriela said she was going to walk the five steepest stairways, but she only talked about 4. You’re right! The fifth contender was the Filbert Street steps, but \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11907457/how-the-filbert-steps-came-to-be-an-oasis-in-san-francisco\">we have an entire episode about the history of that stairway \u003c/a>and the beautiful garden that runs next to it. I’ll put a link in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is produced at member-supported KQED in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is made by Gabriela Glueck, Christopher Beale and me, Katrina Schwartz.\u003cbr>\nWith extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Invasion of the Grub Snatchers: How One Rich Guy’s Russian Boars Colonized California",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wild pigs \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/quest/17488/hog-wild\">roam on the loose\u003c/a> in 56 of California’s 58 counties. Travis Mowbray of Menlo Park hasn’t seen them in the flesh here in the San Francisco Bay Area, but he’s read all sorts of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101887861/feral-pigs-rampage-bay-area\">headlines\u003c/a> about the trouble they stir up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve read that invasive wild boars present big problems for endemic wildlife, and for farmers, and for homeowners in the Bay Area. Do mountain lions or perhaps coyotes hunt these wild boars? Could they be convinced to try?” he asked.“I was thinking maybe recipe cards or a sauce?\u003cem>”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While there are edge case stories of wild boars killing humans, and they opportunistically scavenge animal carcasses, many of us might be surprised to learn that boars prefer vegetables.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Primarily, we’ll see them go after grubs that are in the soil, insect larvae, acorns and bulb plants,” said David Mauk, a Natural Resource Technician at the Santa Clara Valley Open Space Authority. Mauk took me and Mowbray on a tour of wild boar-disturbed areas in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.openspaceauthority.org/whats-new/mayyan-ooyakmas-rare-serpentine-soils-enchanting-find-bay-area\">Máyyan ‘Ooyákma — Coyote Ridge Open Space Preserve\u003c/a>, which sits on 1,859 acres in the Diablo Range south of San Jose.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The preserve used to be ranchland and still bears the marks of human development, like grasses planted for grazing. Mauk’s job is to help the native flora and fauna bounce back, but the wild boars make it difficult. The common joke is that they’re \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Kf8gJzWSrw\">rototillers\u003c/a> that poop, creating excellent conditions for invasive grasses and plants that love setting up shop in disturbed soil.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12051714\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00271_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12051714 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00271_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00271_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00271_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00271_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">David Mauk, a natural resource technician at Open Space Authority, drives through Máyyan ‘Ooyákma – Coyote Ridge, a preserve owned by Open Space Authority, in Morgan Hill on August 8, 2025. Wild Boars are an invasive species that endanger native plants and animals, as well as water sources. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The views are gorgeous in the Máyyan ‘Ooyákma — Coyote Ridge Open Space Preserve, everywhere you look in these rolling, yellow hills. That is, until you look down and see soccer pitch-sized stretches of soil wild boars have turned over in their search for tasty treats underneath.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Preserves like this one are special because they are some of the last protected areas for what’s called \u003ca href=\"https://protectcoyotevalley.org/serpentine-habitat-101-a-rare-world-in-our-backyard/\">serpentine habitat\u003c/a>. A very special set of plants and animals has developed over millennia to survive on this volcanic soil.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For example, the rare\u003ca href=\"https://www.openspaceauthority.org/whats-new/protecting-bay-checkerspot-butterfly#:~:text=Why%20is%20the%20Bay%20checkerspot,can%20still%20find%20the%20butterflies.\"> Bay checkerspot butterfly\u003c/a>, the official superstar species of this preserve, hangs out here because the ground hosts native flora like its favorite, the dwarf plantain. Many visitors come for the flora, too, especially during bloom season. In the spring, the fragrant fritillary’s flowers, for instance, hang down like tiny upside-down bells, and the petals also have a checkered or spotted pattern. The word “fragrant” is in its name because it gives off a sweet, gentle smell that attracts pollinators.[aside postID=news_12052988 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250804-BC-BIODIVERSITY-01-KQED.jpg']“The fragrant fritillary is one of our most sensitive species here on the ridge,” Mauk said. “There’s only a handful of spots where we have viable populations of them growing. The plant has a really short bloom window in the spring and can be sensitive to damage by, especially pigs.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Boar poop poses another threat. It can spread more than 30 infectious diseases, 20 of which can be transmitted to humans, including \u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2006-oct-27-me-spinach27-story.html\">E. coli\u003c/a>. Something to consider, as Mawk explains that, especially in warm weather, pigs love to hang out in streams and ponds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’ll wallow in the water sources, which is one of the types of damage they do,” Mauk said. “[It] harms the sides of banks, causes a lot of erosion, damages the vegetation in those riparian areas and really destroys the habitat for other animals that want to use those, like the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1941283/mark-twains-celebrated-red-legged-frogs-thriving-in-yosemite-valley\">California red-legged frog\u003c/a>.” The California red-legged frog, by the way, is another threatened species.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>So … how did the pigs get here?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the early 1700s, Spanish and Russian settlers introduced domestic pigs to California as \u003ca href=\"https://wildlife.ca.gov/Conservation/Mammals/Wild-Pig#:~:text=Overview,livestock%20and%20many%20became%20feral.\">livestock\u003c/a>. Many became feral, roaming the state’s scrubby hillsides in packs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in the 1920s, a wealthy landowner with more money than sense introduced wild boar from the Ural mountains of Russia onto his property, Rancho San Carlos in the Carmel Valley south of Monterey.\u003ca href=\"https://www.ventanawild.org/news/se02/pigs.html\"> George Gordon Moore\u003c/a> wanted to start a preserve he could hunt in with his friends and business associates, as he proudly described in a letter to his neighbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12051712\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00140_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12051712 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00140_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00140_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00140_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00140_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Cows graze on the hills of Máyyan ‘Ooyákma – Coyote Ridge, a preserve owned by Open Space Authority, in Morgan Hill on August 8, 2025. The preserve used to be ranchland and still bears the marks of human development, like non-native grasses planted for grazing. Cows keep those non-native grasses in check. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“He told me that in trapping them four hounds had been killed and one helper badly wounded…The biggest boar we ever killed on the ranch, when hung, measured 9 ft. from tip to tip. The skin on his neck was three inches thick; eleven bullets were found which over the years had been embedded in the fat,” Moore wrote.\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>Before long, the Russian boars were mating with the Spanish domestic pigs, and they spread with abandon. Sows start breeding as early as four months old—yes, \u003cem>four months\u003c/em>—and the sows can pop out not one, but two litters a year. Most litters have four to 12 piglets, but some overachieving boars have cranked out 18. Fast forward to today, and wild pigs are now running loose in 56 of California’s 58 counties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“At the time, people didn’t realize just how damaging it can be to bring in an animal from another ecosystem and let it loose,” Mauk lamented.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Hunters want to hunt wild boars, but it’s complicated\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A young pig might be fair game for predators like coyotes and mountain lions, but adult pigs are another matter. Mature males weigh 200 pounds or more, females about 150–175 pounds. Where there’s a piglet, there’s a protective parent lurking nearby. Also, they travel in packs, called sounders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Their sounders can range from five to six, to sometimes, 10–12 pigs,” Mauk explained. “Their main predator where they originally came from in Eurasia were brown bears! We don’t really have brown bears here in the Bay Area anymore. So the job kinda falls to us.”[aside postID=news_12052889 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/9_Opt2-2000x1388.jpeg']Most coyotes and mountain lions know better than to risk an encounter with a big, fast animal that travels in packs and sports super sharp tusks. Which means, the wild pigs have the evolutionary advantage on all of us. Estimates put California’s feral pig population between 200,000 and 400,000, concentrated in central and coastal regions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wild pigs are a designated pest that can be hunted year-round without limit in California. According to the most recent Wild Pig Take Report from the state’s \u003ca href=\"https://wildlife.ca.gov/Hunting/Special-Hunts/Wild-Pig\">Department of Fish & Wildlife\u003c/a>, returned tags indicate hunters took 3,327 wild pigs \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/7773/25\">statewide\u003c/a> during the 2023–24 hunting season, a quarter of them from Monterey County alone. Because, of course, that’s where they started this party.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m compassionate towards the pigs, because they are an intelligent animal. It’s not their fault they’re here. It’s not their fault that they don’t have a predator like the brown bear here. We just need to do our role in the ecosystem to make sure they don’t cause the damage that they are causing,” Mauk said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, if you like to hunt, this sounds like it’s bacon time. But it will come as no surprise to learn that local authorities have local rules governing where and how you can go after wild boars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We get lots of calls, lots of hunters. ‘Hey, what are you guys doing about your pigs? I’d love to come to your park,’” said Dana Page, a natural resource program manager for Santa Clara County Parks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in a preserve, Page explained, authorities don’t want to risk the possibility that some hiker will get shot. For another thing, if you’re close enough to shoot a boar, you’re close enough to be noticed by the sounder and attacked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Definitely, you don’t want to get close to a pig!” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12051717\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00515_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12051717 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00515_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00515_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00515_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00515_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A wild boar track indents the grass at Spreckels Hill, a protected property owned by Open Space Authority, in Morgan Hill on August 8, 2025. Wild pigs are a designated pest in California, and local agencies contract with professional outfits to trap and kill the feral creatures, which have poor eyesight and can be dangerous to humans if startled. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For a third thing, pigs are really, really clever. If they notice they’re being hunted, they’ll retreat into the night or move someplace nearby, probably across county lines just to create jurisdictional confusion. Also, they’ll breed more vigorously.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Page is hopeful science will eventually offer some solves, like maybe pig birth control. Whatever the case, she figures such strategies will only reduce the wild boar population, not end them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The population has gotten to a point where we have to realize that they are here and they’re never going to be eliminated from the landscape,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Area regional authorities know the local humans are getting fed up with the wild boars tearing up their lawns, defecating in their koi ponds, and treating their front yards like an all-you-can-root buffet. Multiple agencies are developing “a regional approach to feral pig management.” In plain English, officials are finally getting serious about tracking the boars’ whereabouts and even contracting with professional outfits to trap and kill boars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So if you spot wild boars, call the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sanjoseca.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/10933/636664045402970000\">local authorities\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> South Bay residents have been struggling with a weird garden invasion. Not hungry caterpillars, or cats pooping in the vegetable bed. No, think bigger. Think pigs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Clip 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wild boars are increasing their range across open spaces in the Bay Area this year. From parkland to backyards, to water district properties and hiking trails.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wild pigs travel in packs, rip up suburban lawns and mess with sensitive habitats \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Clip 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, it has plagued Morgan Hill for years, the periodic pig fest, as in wild pigs feasting on neighborhood lawns and fields…\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>News Clip 3:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Look at this big clump of lawn. We talked to one homeowner who says he woke up to this this morning, after pigs turned his lawn upside down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Experts say the problem has gotten worse in recent years, especially after a series of wet winters has left moist soil teeming with grubs — a pig’s favorite food. Travis Mowbray of Menlo Park has followed these headlines. He’s never seen a boar, but he’s concerned about the effect they’re having on the natural spaces he loves.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Travis Mowbray: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve read that invasive wild boars present big problems for endemic wildlife, and for farmers, and for homeowners in the Bay Area. Do mountain lions or perhaps coyotes hunt these wild boars? Could they be convinced to try?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s even got some ideas to help entice predators to take on the pigs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Travis Mowbray:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I was thinking maybe recipe cards or a sauce?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All kidding aside, the boars ARE out of control. Today on the show, we’ll take a trip to see some of their destruction, learn how they got here in the first place, and gather some ideas on how to get rid of them. I’m Katrina Schwartz and you’re listening to Bay Curious. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wild boars have been wrecking havoc in communities like San Jose, Morgan Hill and Lafayette for years. They can do a number on a lawn, but they’re also causing problems for wildland protection in some of our nature preserves. KQED’s Rachael Myrow did some rooting around to find out more.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Our question asker, Travis, and I met up for a tour of wild boar damage at the Máyyan ‘Ooyákma\u003c/span> —\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Coyote Ridge Open Space Preserve, located in the Diablo Range south of San Jose.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Door slams sounds of driving in a truck over bumpy ground\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re with David Mauk, a Natural Resource Technician for the Santa Clara Open Space Authority, on a driving tour of this newish preserve, open to the public for only about two years. We rumbled up an old farm road in David’s truck.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Mauk: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of these grasses are actually non native, and these non native grasses were bred to be really hearty food for cows. So they grow a lot taller and denser than our native grasses would.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David’s job is to help the native flora and fauna recover from this type of human intervention. The views are gorgeous everywhere you look in these rolling, yellow hills. That is…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of door slam\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Until you look down and see soccer pitch-sized stretches of soil wild boars have turned over in their search for tasty treats underneath. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Mauk: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Primarily we’ll see them go after, like, grubs that are in the soil, insect larva, acorns and different kinds of you know vegetative material like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All that vigorous digging boars do creates excellent conditions for invasive grasses and plants that love setting up shop in disturbed soil.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Mauk: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’ll also go after bulb plants. Like, our soap plant is a popular target for them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s particularly distressing here…in this preserve..special because it’s one of the last protected areas for what’s called serpentine habitat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A very special set of plants and animals have developed over millenia to survive on this volcanic soil. For example, there’s the rare\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.openspaceauthority.org/whats-new/protecting-bay-checkerspot-butterfly#:~:text=Why%20is%20the%20Bay%20checkerspot,can%20still%20find%20the%20butterflies.\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay checkerspot butterfly\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, the official superstar species of this preserve, with wings that look like they’re dotted with confetti in a host of harvest season colors. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a host of native flora, too, like fragrant fritillary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Mauk: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The fragrant fritillary is one of our most sensitive species here on the ridge. There’s only a handful of spots where we have viable populations of them growing. The plant has a really short bloom window in the spring and can be sensitive to damage by, especially pigs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not just that the wild boars tear up the soil. They um — there’s no nice way to say this — they poop in the water. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And their poop can spread more than 30 infectious diseases, 20 of which can be transmitted to humans. Something to consider, as David explains that, especially in warm weather, pigs love to hang out in streams and ponds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Mauk:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’ll wallow in the water sources, which is one of the types of damage they do. Harms the sides of banks, causes a lot of erosion, damages the vegetation in those riparian areas, and really, destroys the habitat for other animals, like the California red legged frog.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which is another threatened species. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So … how did the pigs get here? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the early 1700s, Spanish and Russian settlers introduced domestic pigs to California as livestock. Many became feral. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then, in the 1920s, a wealthy land owner named George Gordon Moore introduced wild boar from the Ural mountains of Russia onto his property south of Monterey, as he proudly described in a letter to his neighbor.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice reading letter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The biggest boar we ever killed on the ranch, when hung, measured 9 ft. from tip to tip. The skin on his neck was three inches thick; eleven bullets were found which over the years had been embedded in the fat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Moore \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">apparently\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> thought it was a great idea to release wild boars onto his property—because nothing says “wholesome weekend hunting trip” like importing a literal chaos pig from the Russian wilderness.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And shocker: it went exactly how you’d expect it to go. Some of those boars broke out—\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">because of course they did\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">—and started getting very friendly with the now local Spanish pigs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Mauk: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time, people didn’t realize just how damaging it can be to bring in an animal from another ecosystem and let it loose.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sows start breeding as early as four months old—yes, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">four months\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">—and the sows can pop out not one, but two litters a year. Most litters have 4 to 12 piglets, but some overachieving boars have cranked out eighteen\u003c/span>\u003cb>.\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Fast forward to today, and wild pigs are now running loose in 56 of California’s 58 counties. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, that’s how they got here and why they’re so damaging. But our question asker, Travis, wants to know whether they have natural predators that could help keep their populations in check.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Mauk: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Their main predator where they originally came from in Eurasia were brown bears! We don’t really have brown bears here in the Bay Area anymore. So the job kinda falls to us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A young pig might be fair game for predators like coyotes and mountain lions. But adult pigs are another matter. Mature males weigh 200 pounds or more, females about 150-175 pounds. And where there’s a piglet, there’s a protective parent lurking nearby. Because pigs travel in packs, called “sounders.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Mauk: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Their sounders can range from about, you know, 5-6 pigs, to sometimes, 10-12 pigs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most coyotes and mountain lions know better than to risk an encounter with a big, fast animal that travels in packs and sports super sharp tusks. Tracking and hunting these boars is difficult for humans too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Estimates put California’s feral pig population between 200,000 and 400,000, concentrated in central and coastal regions. Wild pigs are a designated pest that can be hunted year-round without limit, but in 2023-24 hunters only reported killing around 3-thousand of them. Meanwhile, David says, they continue to devastate the delicate serpentine habitat he’s keen to protect.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Mauk:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m compassionate towards the pigs, because they are an intelligent animal. It’s not their fault they’re here. It’s not their fault that they don’t have a predator like the brown bear here. We just need to do our role in the ecosystem to make sure they don’t cause the damage that they are causing.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, if you like to hunt, this sounds like… it’s bacon time. But it will come as no surprise to learn local authorities have local rules governing where and how you can go after wild boars. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Page: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We gets lots of calls, lots of hunters. ‘\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey, what are you guys doing about your pigs? I’d love to come to your park.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Dana Page, a natural resource program manager for Santa Clara County Parks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a park, she says, authorities don’t want to risk the possibility that some hiker photographing a \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.openspaceauthority.org/whats-new/protecting-bay-checkerspot-butterfly#:~:text=Why%20is%20the%20Bay%20checkerspot,can%20still%20find%20the%20butterflies.\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay checkerspot butterfly\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> will get shot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, there’s a county ordinance against hunting in parks. For another thing, if you’re close enough to shoot a boar, you’re close enough to be noticed by the sounder and attacked. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Page: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Definitely, you don’t want to get close to a pig. Hahah!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For a third thing, Dana adds, pigs are really, really clever. If they notice they’re being hunted, they’ll retreat into the night, or move someplace else. Also, they’ll \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">breed more\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s hopeful science will eventually offer some solves, like maybe pig birth control. Whatever the case, she figures such strategies will only reduce the wild boar population, not end them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Page:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The population has gotten to a point where we have to realize that they are here and they’re never going to be eliminated from the landscape.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite that sobering thought, local officials are finally getting serious about dealing with the problem. Multiple agencies are teaming up to track the boars and working with professional outfits to trap and kill them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was KQED Senior Editor Rachael Myrow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Travis Mowbray for asking this week’s question. If you’ve got a burning curiosity that you think we should investigate, head on over to baycurious.org. Right at the top of the page there’s a spot to submit your questions. And don’t forget to vote on what we should cover next while you’re there!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our show is produced by Christopher Beale, Gabriela Glueck and me, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening and have a great week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Originally imported to Monterey County for sport by a wealthy landowner in the 1920s, wild boars now number in the hundreds of thousands, and they are destroying sensitive habitats and suburban lawns statewide. \r\n",
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"title": "Invasion of the Grub Snatchers: How One Rich Guy’s Russian Boars Colonized California | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wild pigs \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/quest/17488/hog-wild\">roam on the loose\u003c/a> in 56 of California’s 58 counties. Travis Mowbray of Menlo Park hasn’t seen them in the flesh here in the San Francisco Bay Area, but he’s read all sorts of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101887861/feral-pigs-rampage-bay-area\">headlines\u003c/a> about the trouble they stir up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve read that invasive wild boars present big problems for endemic wildlife, and for farmers, and for homeowners in the Bay Area. Do mountain lions or perhaps coyotes hunt these wild boars? Could they be convinced to try?” he asked.“I was thinking maybe recipe cards or a sauce?\u003cem>”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While there are edge case stories of wild boars killing humans, and they opportunistically scavenge animal carcasses, many of us might be surprised to learn that boars prefer vegetables.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Primarily, we’ll see them go after grubs that are in the soil, insect larvae, acorns and bulb plants,” said David Mauk, a Natural Resource Technician at the Santa Clara Valley Open Space Authority. Mauk took me and Mowbray on a tour of wild boar-disturbed areas in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.openspaceauthority.org/whats-new/mayyan-ooyakmas-rare-serpentine-soils-enchanting-find-bay-area\">Máyyan ‘Ooyákma — Coyote Ridge Open Space Preserve\u003c/a>, which sits on 1,859 acres in the Diablo Range south of San Jose.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The preserve used to be ranchland and still bears the marks of human development, like grasses planted for grazing. Mauk’s job is to help the native flora and fauna bounce back, but the wild boars make it difficult. The common joke is that they’re \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Kf8gJzWSrw\">rototillers\u003c/a> that poop, creating excellent conditions for invasive grasses and plants that love setting up shop in disturbed soil.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12051714\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00271_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12051714 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00271_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00271_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00271_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00271_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">David Mauk, a natural resource technician at Open Space Authority, drives through Máyyan ‘Ooyákma – Coyote Ridge, a preserve owned by Open Space Authority, in Morgan Hill on August 8, 2025. Wild Boars are an invasive species that endanger native plants and animals, as well as water sources. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The views are gorgeous in the Máyyan ‘Ooyákma — Coyote Ridge Open Space Preserve, everywhere you look in these rolling, yellow hills. That is, until you look down and see soccer pitch-sized stretches of soil wild boars have turned over in their search for tasty treats underneath.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Preserves like this one are special because they are some of the last protected areas for what’s called \u003ca href=\"https://protectcoyotevalley.org/serpentine-habitat-101-a-rare-world-in-our-backyard/\">serpentine habitat\u003c/a>. A very special set of plants and animals has developed over millennia to survive on this volcanic soil.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For example, the rare\u003ca href=\"https://www.openspaceauthority.org/whats-new/protecting-bay-checkerspot-butterfly#:~:text=Why%20is%20the%20Bay%20checkerspot,can%20still%20find%20the%20butterflies.\"> Bay checkerspot butterfly\u003c/a>, the official superstar species of this preserve, hangs out here because the ground hosts native flora like its favorite, the dwarf plantain. Many visitors come for the flora, too, especially during bloom season. In the spring, the fragrant fritillary’s flowers, for instance, hang down like tiny upside-down bells, and the petals also have a checkered or spotted pattern. The word “fragrant” is in its name because it gives off a sweet, gentle smell that attracts pollinators.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“The fragrant fritillary is one of our most sensitive species here on the ridge,” Mauk said. “There’s only a handful of spots where we have viable populations of them growing. The plant has a really short bloom window in the spring and can be sensitive to damage by, especially pigs.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Boar poop poses another threat. It can spread more than 30 infectious diseases, 20 of which can be transmitted to humans, including \u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2006-oct-27-me-spinach27-story.html\">E. coli\u003c/a>. Something to consider, as Mawk explains that, especially in warm weather, pigs love to hang out in streams and ponds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’ll wallow in the water sources, which is one of the types of damage they do,” Mauk said. “[It] harms the sides of banks, causes a lot of erosion, damages the vegetation in those riparian areas and really destroys the habitat for other animals that want to use those, like the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1941283/mark-twains-celebrated-red-legged-frogs-thriving-in-yosemite-valley\">California red-legged frog\u003c/a>.” The California red-legged frog, by the way, is another threatened species.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>So … how did the pigs get here?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the early 1700s, Spanish and Russian settlers introduced domestic pigs to California as \u003ca href=\"https://wildlife.ca.gov/Conservation/Mammals/Wild-Pig#:~:text=Overview,livestock%20and%20many%20became%20feral.\">livestock\u003c/a>. Many became feral, roaming the state’s scrubby hillsides in packs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in the 1920s, a wealthy landowner with more money than sense introduced wild boar from the Ural mountains of Russia onto his property, Rancho San Carlos in the Carmel Valley south of Monterey.\u003ca href=\"https://www.ventanawild.org/news/se02/pigs.html\"> George Gordon Moore\u003c/a> wanted to start a preserve he could hunt in with his friends and business associates, as he proudly described in a letter to his neighbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12051712\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00140_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12051712 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00140_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00140_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00140_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00140_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Cows graze on the hills of Máyyan ‘Ooyákma – Coyote Ridge, a preserve owned by Open Space Authority, in Morgan Hill on August 8, 2025. The preserve used to be ranchland and still bears the marks of human development, like non-native grasses planted for grazing. Cows keep those non-native grasses in check. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“He told me that in trapping them four hounds had been killed and one helper badly wounded…The biggest boar we ever killed on the ranch, when hung, measured 9 ft. from tip to tip. The skin on his neck was three inches thick; eleven bullets were found which over the years had been embedded in the fat,” Moore wrote.\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>Before long, the Russian boars were mating with the Spanish domestic pigs, and they spread with abandon. Sows start breeding as early as four months old—yes, \u003cem>four months\u003c/em>—and the sows can pop out not one, but two litters a year. Most litters have four to 12 piglets, but some overachieving boars have cranked out 18. Fast forward to today, and wild pigs are now running loose in 56 of California’s 58 counties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“At the time, people didn’t realize just how damaging it can be to bring in an animal from another ecosystem and let it loose,” Mauk lamented.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Hunters want to hunt wild boars, but it’s complicated\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A young pig might be fair game for predators like coyotes and mountain lions, but adult pigs are another matter. Mature males weigh 200 pounds or more, females about 150–175 pounds. Where there’s a piglet, there’s a protective parent lurking nearby. Also, they travel in packs, called sounders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Their sounders can range from five to six, to sometimes, 10–12 pigs,” Mauk explained. “Their main predator where they originally came from in Eurasia were brown bears! We don’t really have brown bears here in the Bay Area anymore. So the job kinda falls to us.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Most coyotes and mountain lions know better than to risk an encounter with a big, fast animal that travels in packs and sports super sharp tusks. Which means, the wild pigs have the evolutionary advantage on all of us. Estimates put California’s feral pig population between 200,000 and 400,000, concentrated in central and coastal regions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wild pigs are a designated pest that can be hunted year-round without limit in California. According to the most recent Wild Pig Take Report from the state’s \u003ca href=\"https://wildlife.ca.gov/Hunting/Special-Hunts/Wild-Pig\">Department of Fish & Wildlife\u003c/a>, returned tags indicate hunters took 3,327 wild pigs \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/7773/25\">statewide\u003c/a> during the 2023–24 hunting season, a quarter of them from Monterey County alone. Because, of course, that’s where they started this party.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m compassionate towards the pigs, because they are an intelligent animal. It’s not their fault they’re here. It’s not their fault that they don’t have a predator like the brown bear here. We just need to do our role in the ecosystem to make sure they don’t cause the damage that they are causing,” Mauk said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, if you like to hunt, this sounds like it’s bacon time. But it will come as no surprise to learn that local authorities have local rules governing where and how you can go after wild boars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We get lots of calls, lots of hunters. ‘Hey, what are you guys doing about your pigs? I’d love to come to your park,’” said Dana Page, a natural resource program manager for Santa Clara County Parks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in a preserve, Page explained, authorities don’t want to risk the possibility that some hiker will get shot. For another thing, if you’re close enough to shoot a boar, you’re close enough to be noticed by the sounder and attacked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Definitely, you don’t want to get close to a pig!” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12051717\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00515_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12051717 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00515_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00515_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00515_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250808-WILDPIGS_00515_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A wild boar track indents the grass at Spreckels Hill, a protected property owned by Open Space Authority, in Morgan Hill on August 8, 2025. Wild pigs are a designated pest in California, and local agencies contract with professional outfits to trap and kill the feral creatures, which have poor eyesight and can be dangerous to humans if startled. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For a third thing, pigs are really, really clever. If they notice they’re being hunted, they’ll retreat into the night or move someplace nearby, probably across county lines just to create jurisdictional confusion. Also, they’ll breed more vigorously.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Page is hopeful science will eventually offer some solves, like maybe pig birth control. Whatever the case, she figures such strategies will only reduce the wild boar population, not end them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The population has gotten to a point where we have to realize that they are here and they’re never going to be eliminated from the landscape,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Area regional authorities know the local humans are getting fed up with the wild boars tearing up their lawns, defecating in their koi ponds, and treating their front yards like an all-you-can-root buffet. Multiple agencies are developing “a regional approach to feral pig management.” In plain English, officials are finally getting serious about tracking the boars’ whereabouts and even contracting with professional outfits to trap and kill boars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So if you spot wild boars, call the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sanjoseca.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/10933/636664045402970000\">local authorities\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> South Bay residents have been struggling with a weird garden invasion. Not hungry caterpillars, or cats pooping in the vegetable bed. No, think bigger. Think pigs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Clip 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wild boars are increasing their range across open spaces in the Bay Area this year. From parkland to backyards, to water district properties and hiking trails.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wild pigs travel in packs, rip up suburban lawns and mess with sensitive habitats \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Clip 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, it has plagued Morgan Hill for years, the periodic pig fest, as in wild pigs feasting on neighborhood lawns and fields…\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>News Clip 3:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Look at this big clump of lawn. We talked to one homeowner who says he woke up to this this morning, after pigs turned his lawn upside down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Experts say the problem has gotten worse in recent years, especially after a series of wet winters has left moist soil teeming with grubs — a pig’s favorite food. Travis Mowbray of Menlo Park has followed these headlines. He’s never seen a boar, but he’s concerned about the effect they’re having on the natural spaces he loves.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Travis Mowbray: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve read that invasive wild boars present big problems for endemic wildlife, and for farmers, and for homeowners in the Bay Area. Do mountain lions or perhaps coyotes hunt these wild boars? Could they be convinced to try?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s even got some ideas to help entice predators to take on the pigs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Travis Mowbray:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I was thinking maybe recipe cards or a sauce?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All kidding aside, the boars ARE out of control. Today on the show, we’ll take a trip to see some of their destruction, learn how they got here in the first place, and gather some ideas on how to get rid of them. I’m Katrina Schwartz and you’re listening to Bay Curious. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wild boars have been wrecking havoc in communities like San Jose, Morgan Hill and Lafayette for years. They can do a number on a lawn, but they’re also causing problems for wildland protection in some of our nature preserves. KQED’s Rachael Myrow did some rooting around to find out more.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Our question asker, Travis, and I met up for a tour of wild boar damage at the Máyyan ‘Ooyákma\u003c/span> —\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Coyote Ridge Open Space Preserve, located in the Diablo Range south of San Jose.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Door slams sounds of driving in a truck over bumpy ground\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re with David Mauk, a Natural Resource Technician for the Santa Clara Open Space Authority, on a driving tour of this newish preserve, open to the public for only about two years. We rumbled up an old farm road in David’s truck.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Mauk: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of these grasses are actually non native, and these non native grasses were bred to be really hearty food for cows. So they grow a lot taller and denser than our native grasses would.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David’s job is to help the native flora and fauna recover from this type of human intervention. The views are gorgeous everywhere you look in these rolling, yellow hills. That is…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of door slam\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Until you look down and see soccer pitch-sized stretches of soil wild boars have turned over in their search for tasty treats underneath. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Mauk: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Primarily we’ll see them go after, like, grubs that are in the soil, insect larva, acorns and different kinds of you know vegetative material like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All that vigorous digging boars do creates excellent conditions for invasive grasses and plants that love setting up shop in disturbed soil.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Mauk: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’ll also go after bulb plants. Like, our soap plant is a popular target for them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s particularly distressing here…in this preserve..special because it’s one of the last protected areas for what’s called serpentine habitat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A very special set of plants and animals have developed over millenia to survive on this volcanic soil. For example, there’s the rare\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.openspaceauthority.org/whats-new/protecting-bay-checkerspot-butterfly#:~:text=Why%20is%20the%20Bay%20checkerspot,can%20still%20find%20the%20butterflies.\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay checkerspot butterfly\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, the official superstar species of this preserve, with wings that look like they’re dotted with confetti in a host of harvest season colors. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a host of native flora, too, like fragrant fritillary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Mauk: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The fragrant fritillary is one of our most sensitive species here on the ridge. There’s only a handful of spots where we have viable populations of them growing. The plant has a really short bloom window in the spring and can be sensitive to damage by, especially pigs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not just that the wild boars tear up the soil. They um — there’s no nice way to say this — they poop in the water. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And their poop can spread more than 30 infectious diseases, 20 of which can be transmitted to humans. Something to consider, as David explains that, especially in warm weather, pigs love to hang out in streams and ponds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Mauk:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’ll wallow in the water sources, which is one of the types of damage they do. Harms the sides of banks, causes a lot of erosion, damages the vegetation in those riparian areas, and really, destroys the habitat for other animals, like the California red legged frog.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which is another threatened species. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So … how did the pigs get here? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the early 1700s, Spanish and Russian settlers introduced domestic pigs to California as livestock. Many became feral. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then, in the 1920s, a wealthy land owner named George Gordon Moore introduced wild boar from the Ural mountains of Russia onto his property south of Monterey, as he proudly described in a letter to his neighbor.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice reading letter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The biggest boar we ever killed on the ranch, when hung, measured 9 ft. from tip to tip. The skin on his neck was three inches thick; eleven bullets were found which over the years had been embedded in the fat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Moore \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">apparently\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> thought it was a great idea to release wild boars onto his property—because nothing says “wholesome weekend hunting trip” like importing a literal chaos pig from the Russian wilderness.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And shocker: it went exactly how you’d expect it to go. Some of those boars broke out—\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">because of course they did\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">—and started getting very friendly with the now local Spanish pigs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Mauk: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time, people didn’t realize just how damaging it can be to bring in an animal from another ecosystem and let it loose.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sows start breeding as early as four months old—yes, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">four months\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">—and the sows can pop out not one, but two litters a year. Most litters have 4 to 12 piglets, but some overachieving boars have cranked out eighteen\u003c/span>\u003cb>.\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Fast forward to today, and wild pigs are now running loose in 56 of California’s 58 counties. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, that’s how they got here and why they’re so damaging. But our question asker, Travis, wants to know whether they have natural predators that could help keep their populations in check.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Mauk: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Their main predator where they originally came from in Eurasia were brown bears! We don’t really have brown bears here in the Bay Area anymore. So the job kinda falls to us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A young pig might be fair game for predators like coyotes and mountain lions. But adult pigs are another matter. Mature males weigh 200 pounds or more, females about 150-175 pounds. And where there’s a piglet, there’s a protective parent lurking nearby. Because pigs travel in packs, called “sounders.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Mauk: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Their sounders can range from about, you know, 5-6 pigs, to sometimes, 10-12 pigs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most coyotes and mountain lions know better than to risk an encounter with a big, fast animal that travels in packs and sports super sharp tusks. Tracking and hunting these boars is difficult for humans too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Estimates put California’s feral pig population between 200,000 and 400,000, concentrated in central and coastal regions. Wild pigs are a designated pest that can be hunted year-round without limit, but in 2023-24 hunters only reported killing around 3-thousand of them. Meanwhile, David says, they continue to devastate the delicate serpentine habitat he’s keen to protect.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Mauk:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m compassionate towards the pigs, because they are an intelligent animal. It’s not their fault they’re here. It’s not their fault that they don’t have a predator like the brown bear here. We just need to do our role in the ecosystem to make sure they don’t cause the damage that they are causing.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, if you like to hunt, this sounds like… it’s bacon time. But it will come as no surprise to learn local authorities have local rules governing where and how you can go after wild boars. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Page: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We gets lots of calls, lots of hunters. ‘\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey, what are you guys doing about your pigs? I’d love to come to your park.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Dana Page, a natural resource program manager for Santa Clara County Parks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a park, she says, authorities don’t want to risk the possibility that some hiker photographing a \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.openspaceauthority.org/whats-new/protecting-bay-checkerspot-butterfly#:~:text=Why%20is%20the%20Bay%20checkerspot,can%20still%20find%20the%20butterflies.\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay checkerspot butterfly\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> will get shot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, there’s a county ordinance against hunting in parks. For another thing, if you’re close enough to shoot a boar, you’re close enough to be noticed by the sounder and attacked. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Page: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Definitely, you don’t want to get close to a pig. Hahah!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For a third thing, Dana adds, pigs are really, really clever. If they notice they’re being hunted, they’ll retreat into the night, or move someplace else. Also, they’ll \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">breed more\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s hopeful science will eventually offer some solves, like maybe pig birth control. Whatever the case, she figures such strategies will only reduce the wild boar population, not end them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Page:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The population has gotten to a point where we have to realize that they are here and they’re never going to be eliminated from the landscape.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite that sobering thought, local officials are finally getting serious about dealing with the problem. Multiple agencies are teaming up to track the boars and working with professional outfits to trap and kill them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was KQED Senior Editor Rachael Myrow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Travis Mowbray for asking this week’s question. If you’ve got a burning curiosity that you think we should investigate, head on over to baycurious.org. Right at the top of the page there’s a spot to submit your questions. And don’t forget to vote on what we should cover next while you’re there!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our show is produced by Christopher Beale, Gabriela Glueck and me, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening and have a great week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
}
},
"closealltabs": {
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"order": 1
},
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"title": "Code Switch / Life Kit",
"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
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"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"meta": {
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
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"id": "fresh-air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"hidden-brain": {
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"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
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"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
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"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"order": 15
},
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/2p3Fifq96nw9BPcmFdIq0o?si=39209f7b25774f38",
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
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"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
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},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
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},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
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"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
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"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
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"meta": {
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"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
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"info": "Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
"link": "/radio/program/pbs-newshour",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/",
"rss": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/feeds/rss/podcasts/show"
}
},
"perspectives": {
"id": "perspectives",
"title": "Perspectives",
"tagline": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991",
"info": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/perspectives/",
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"order": 14
},
"link": "/perspectives",
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