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"title": "'How to Kill a Cop': Death, Despair and Corruption in California's Most Violent Prison",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>Warning: This story contains graphic language, and descriptions of violence and suicide. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[dropcap]W[/dropcap]hen Lili Steele got home from work on that hot, humid evening in August 2021, she expected to find her husband, Sgt. Kevin Steele, sitting at his desk working on his book. The couple had moved to a rural area near Missouri’s Lake of the Ozarks after Steele had taken a leave of absence from his job as an investigator in a high-security prison in Folsom, California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Writing the book, Lili said, “was his new job.” The manuscript chronicled Steele’s decade at the prison, where he had become increasingly frustrated with a system he came to see as corrupt and antithetical to his deep Christian faith. His project had an ominous working title: \u003cem>The Thin Line Blurs…How to Kill a Cop…Betrayal\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the 56-year-old wasn’t at his desk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lili called Steele’s phone and found it ringing on the kitchen counter. She started to panic; she knew her husband had been struggling. Months earlier, he’d told her that he was haunted by a “trailer of dead people.” Some were soldiers he’d served alongside in Iraq who hadn’t made it home. The rest were from the \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdcr.ca.gov/facility-locator/sac/\">California State Prison, Sacramento\u003c/a>, known colloquially as New Folsom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was Ronnie Price, the 65-year-old whose arms were shackled behind his back when correctional officers slammed him to the ground, fatally injuring him. There was Luis Giovanny Aguilar, the young man who’d been stabbed to death by two other incarcerated men in full view of officers. Finally, and perhaps most painfully, there was his friend, officer Valentino Rodriguez Jr., who’d died of a fentanyl overdose six days after blowing the whistle on fellow officers for alleged misconduct.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Kevin, you didn’t kill those people, you tried to help,” Lili remembers telling her husband. “You followed the protocol, the chain of command. You told the people in charge. It’s up to them to carry the ball now.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After searching the house, Lili walked from the open garage across their driveway to a red storage shed. That’s where she found her husband already dead. Steele had hanged himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a recording of the 911 call, the dispatcher can be heard asking Lili if her husband had been sick.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“No,” she sobbed. “He’s been dealing with a lot of stuff from his work.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Considered in isolation, Steele’s suicide might have been chalked up to one man’s struggle, but the timing — less than a year after the death of his friend Rodriguez, who worked in the same elite unit — points at something larger. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/onourwatch\">A multiyear KQED investigation and an eight-part podcast called On Our Watch\u003c/a> found a persistent code of silence among New Folsom officers that went largely unchecked by prison leadership and the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation (CDCR). An exclusive analysis of hundreds of internal use-of-force records, dozens of leaked documents and videos, and interviews with current and former CDCR officers revealed a culture of cover-ups that enabled the abuse of incarcerated people, officer-on-officer harassment and at least two homicides at the prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017610\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017610\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/020_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/020_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/020_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/020_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/020_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/020_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/020_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/020_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An armed correctional officer looks from a window of the Short Term Restricted Housing (STRH) unit entrance at California State Prison, Sacramento, also known as New Folsom, on April 13, 2023. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A spokesperson said in an email that CDCR “maintains a zero-tolerance policy on code of silence” and that the agency “is fundamentally reforming its approach to addressing allegations of staff misconduct to enhance staff accountability and improve transparency.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the past year and a half the agency declined KQED’s multiple requests to interview New Folsom’s outgoing warden, Jeff Lynch, and the head of the agency, Secretary Jeff Macomber, who served as the warden there from 2013 to 2016. The agency also did not respond to a request to speak with Jason Schultz, who was appointed acting warden in November. CDCR representatives have repeatedly declined to answer questions about the high rate of use of force at New Folsom. They said they could not comment on specific allegations made by Steele and Rodriguez before their deaths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But a trove of written and recorded materials left behind by the two officers and obtained by KQED details their fear of retribution and sense of despair as they tried to expose misconduct in their institution.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Outlier\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Steele started off as a true believer. Hired by CDCR in 2001, he was initially assigned to San Quentin before transferring to New Folsom in 2008. Sprawled along the American River just outside Sacramento, the prison houses about 2,200 people, many of whom have mental health needs or have been convicted of the most serious crimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Working as a correctional officer appealed to the sense of duty and service Steele had enjoyed in his Air Force career, while also promising good benefits and opportunities for advancement. The sergeant’s brother, Michael, said he liked to claim that nobody “worked harder than a Steele.” If his shift started at five in the morning, he’d arrive at four. Each day on his way into New Folsom, Steele walked past the Gothic green tower of the adjoining old Folsom prison (made famous by Johnny Cash) carrying his lunch in a clear plastic bag through the checkpoint of the newer facility. Once he clocked in, “he didn’t stop moving,” said Steele’s colleague, retired correctional officer Annette Eichhorn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Prison leadership entrusted Steele with a lot of responsibilities, from drug testing officers to leading annual trainings. In 2015, he was promoted to prosecution coordinator in the Investigative Services Unit (ISU). Known among officers and incarcerated people as the “squad,” the specialized team serves as the police force for the prison, investigating crimes committed by prisoners and complaints against staff, including for excessive use of force.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017609\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017609\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/258_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/258_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/258_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/258_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/258_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/258_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/258_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/258_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The East Gate of old Folsom Prison in Sacramento, where Johnny Cash played in 1968. New Folsom, which was initially administered by old Folsom’s warden, opened in 1986. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Officers can lawfully use their hands, batons and even the weight of their bodies to subdue prisoners who resist, or ignore their commands. They can deploy less lethal weapons like pepper spray and foam bullets to stop fights or break up riots. If someone’s life is in danger, officers can respond with deadly force. In general, force has to be proportional to the threat, and cannot be used after a threat has been subdued, or as retaliation or punishment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even among high-security prisons, where violent encounters with staff are most common, New Folsom stands out: It had the highest overall use-of-force rate of any California state prison from 2009 through 2023, \u003ca href=\"https://academic.oup.com/jrssig/article-abstract/21/5/16/7803753?redirectedFrom=fulltext\">according to an in-depth analysis of CDCR reports published by researchers\u003c/a> at University of California, Berkeley, in partnership with KQED. CDCR has not yet posted all the data for this year, but numbers released so far show that use-of-force rates at New Folsom remain the highest in the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/HT2gx/8/\" width=\"800\" height=\"580\" scrolling=\"yes\" class=\"iframe-class\" frameborder=\"0\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>New Folsom has been even more of an outlier when it comes to the most serious cases — those in which officers use deadly force or badly injure incarcerated people. KQED’s exclusive analysis of investigative records from 2014 through 2019 revealed that New Folsom had three times as many of these cases as any other prison in the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/GLkYl/9/\" width=\"800\" height=\"900\" scrolling=\"yes\" class=\"iframe-class\" frameborder=\"0\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A CDCR spokesperson told KQED last year that she took issue with KQED’s analysis of general use-of-force data, but the agency did not respond to further detailed requests for clarification and questions regarding these findings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Warden Jeff Lynch appeared unaware of an unusual level of officer violence at New Folsom. Asked about it during a media tour of the facility in April 2023, he said use-of-force rates at his prison were “probably pretty similar” to other high-security facilities in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But over the years, Steele had raised grave concerns about officer violence to prison leadership. It was part of his job to collect the statements of prisoners who’d been injured by guards, and he’d noticed a troubling pattern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017606\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017606\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/187_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/187_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/187_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/187_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/187_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/187_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/187_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/187_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An officer escorts a prisoner to a cell in the Short Term Restricted Housing unit at California State Prison, Sacramento, also known as New Folsom, on April 13, 2023. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>A cover-up\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>On Sept. 16, 2016, Steele interviewed 65-year-old Ronnie Price as he lay handcuffed on a gurney in the hallway of the UC Davis Medical Center with visible trauma to his face that included missing teeth and a broken jaw.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In his unfinished book, Steele wrote that he expected to find a “combative, disruptive and quarrelsome inmate,” but instead found Price “pleasant and amicable.” Steele recalled Price telling him that officers had tried to force him to move to the cell of an active gang member, which Price feared would mean trouble.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a recording of the interview acquired by KQED, Price told Steele that during the escort he passively resisted officers, who then shackled his feet together. His hands were already chained behind his back. As they walked him through the rotunda of the housing unit — an area not covered by surveillance cameras — Price said an officer stepped on the chain between his ankles, causing him to fall face-first onto the cement floor. Price told Steele that as he raised his head to spit out his bloody teeth, “Somebody grabbed my head and slammed it into the ground.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017608\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 640px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-large wp-image-12017608\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-KQED-1020x1275.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"640\" height=\"800\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-KQED-1020x1275.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-KQED-800x1000.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-KQED-160x200.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-KQED-1228x1536.jpg 1228w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-KQED.jpg 1374w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 640px) 100vw, 640px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Prison portrait of Ronnie Price, who died in 2016 as a result of injuries caused by correctional staff. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Price family)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The next day, Price died of a pulmonary embolism related to his injuries, according to the coroner’s report. Steele attended the autopsy and then contacted his bosses. “I was very specific when I advised the administration and my supervisor that I believed that staff were responsible for the death of Inmate Price,” he writes in his book.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Internal documents obtained by KQED through a public records request show that officers wrote the incident up to make it look like Price posed an active threat, claiming that he’d “spun to his left, and lunged forward breaking free” of the escort and that “immediate force” was used “to overcome” resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But after lengthy investigations by the FBI and CDCR, five officers and a sergeant would lose their jobs, and three of them would be convicted of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11929335/former-new-folsom-officer-sentenced-to-more-than-12-years-in-federal-prison-for-inmates-death\">federal charges related to excessive force and efforts to cover up the truth about Price’s death\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It is exceedingly rare for officers to be disciplined for injuring people in California prisons, but Steele believed the Price cover-up was not an isolated incident. Over the next year, he reported at least two more incidents in which officers’ version of events failed to explain the severe injuries of the men he spoke to. Joel Uribe and Ramiro Navarro, independently made strikingly similar allegations in their use-of-force interviews with Steele: During separate escorts, officers had stopped in an area not covered by surveillance cameras and badly beat them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Please don’t think I’m exaggerating,” said Uribe, 50, who’s still in prison but no longer at New Folsom. “They really wanted to have me killed.” Uribe told KQED he was targeted because staff wrongly suspected that he had helped provoke an attack on an officer. Navarro, 56, said in a phone interview from prison that officers punched and hit him with a metal tool. He told Steele the last thing he remembered before he “passed out” was an officer kicking him in the head. Both men were in restraints for the escort, according to case documents, and denied provoking the officers’ assaults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017607\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12017607\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-7219-Form-KQED-800x1029.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"1029\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-7219-Form-KQED-800x1029.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-7219-Form-KQED-1020x1312.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-7219-Form-KQED-160x206.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-7219-Form-KQED-1194x1536.jpg 1194w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-7219-Form-KQED-1592x2048.jpg 1592w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-7219-Form-KQED-1920x2471.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-7219-Form-KQED-scaled.jpg 1990w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">CDCR medical form indicating Ronnie Price’s injuries. Obtained from CDCR via public records request.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But an officer claimed in his report that Uribe “spun around” and struck out with a walking cane, at which point the officer used “immediate physical force to overcome resistance, subdue an attack and effect custody.” A supervisor wrote that after Navarro “aggressively swung his head” in an attempt to headbutt them, officers used “the minimal amount of physical force needed to place Navarro in a prone position.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Documents show that Uribe suffered a concussion, broken ribs, and a face laceration; he told KQED he still has hearing loss in one of his ears. Navarro’s ribs were also broken, and doctors inserted a chest tube to drain blood from around his lung, reports show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite internal investigations and formal complaints made by Uribe and Navarro, no officers were ever disciplined. Instead, documents show that both prisoners were written up for the incidents; each said they were sent to solitary confinement for a year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In all, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11977062/4-foul-play-s2-new-folsom\">a dozen men who were incarcerated at New Folsom told KQED\u003c/a> that officers had used force as retaliation for causing trouble, submitting complaints or even attempting suicide, which triggers a protocol that means extra work for officers. Many of these men had filed formal grievances, but to little effect. Internal reports documenting serious use-of-force incidents at New Folsom from 2014 through 2021 show that, aside from the case involving Price, only one other incident resulted in discipline for an officer, who CDCR fired for using a prohibited chokehold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Unlike Steele, many CDCR employees chose not to speak up. Four current and former correctional officers — who asked KQED for anonymity because they feared for their job security or physical safety — said that it was well known that some officers would beat up incarcerated people. Each said they witnessed at least one of these beatings firsthand, but did not report misconduct due to fear of retaliation from their fellow officers or supervisors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m sorry that we were too fearful to do the right thing when we were there,” said one retired officer. “But to live under that kind of fear, I can’t explain to you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8-DcbCqgpc\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sgt. Kevin Steele conducted use-of-force interviews with incarcerated people; subjects’ faces were redacted by the agency. Edited from video footage obtained from CDCR via public records request. (Annie Fruit/KQED)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The rookie\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In late 2018, correctional officer Valentino Rodriguez walked into the ISU office for his first day on the job. Steele writes in his book that the 28-year-old was “fresh-faced and eager to overachieve.” Rodriguez had stopped by Adalberto’s Mexican Food that morning to pick up breakfast burritos for the whole team — an office tradition by which new members would gain acceptance into the squad. But as the morning wore on, the offering was ignored; to Steele this was a deliberate snub, and he’d see it as an omen of what was to come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017605\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 683px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017605\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-VALENTINO-RODRIGUEZ-JR-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"683\" height=\"854\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-VALENTINO-RODRIGUEZ-JR-04-KQED.jpg 683w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-VALENTINO-RODRIGUEZ-JR-04-KQED-160x200.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 683px) 100vw, 683px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Valentino Rodriguez Jr. with his mother Erma Rodriguez at his graduation from CDCR’s officer academy in Galt, California, May 1, 2015. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Rodriguez family)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Officers often wait years to get tapped for the squad. Rodriguez had earned kudos as a sharp report writer and a hard worker, but he was relatively inexperienced. Some in the unit thought he’d “skipped the line,” according to officers’ later testimony in a disciplinary hearing. They began calling Rodriguez “half-patch,” suggesting he hadn’t fully earned the special black and green badge of the ISU uniform.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In contrast, Steele welcomed the new guy. In his book, he describes thanking Rodriguez for the food that first day and taking an extra burrito home “so as not to waste his act of kindness.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The two men worked in different divisions of the squad — Steele was in Criminal Prosecution while Rodriguez had been assigned to Security and Investigations — but Steele always had a positive word for the younger officer. “You inspire me!” Steele texted him on more than one occasion. Sometimes, on the weekends, they’d carpool to law enforcement seminars where they could brush up on the latest drug interdiction tools or California’s prison gangs. And Steele became a lifeline for Rodriguez when he needed advice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the coldness from Rodriguez’s closest teammates soon turned to open hostility, according to KQED’s review of text messages in Rodriguez’s phone. One officer in particular, Daniel Garland, taunted him regularly. He called him “fag,” and told him to “sukadik” on a group chat. Garland did not agree to speak to KQED for this story, but his attorney said her client’s actions did not rise to the level of harassment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rodriguez’s direct supervisor, Sgt. David Anderson, who was on some of the text threads, did not intervene (Anderson later told investigators “I should have stepped in,” according to public documents). Rodriguez complained in a text to another officer that Anderson would bad-mouth Steele and other senior officers in front of his subordinates, and then threaten to throw Rodriguez off the squad if he said anything. Rodriguez told his fiancée, Mimy, that his supervisor once put his hands around Rodriguez’s neck and told him he could “make it look like an accident.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Anderson, who was promoted to lieutenant in 2022, did not respond to multiple requests for comment. He told investigators that he treated Rodriguez the same as everyone else, and did not believe the young officer had been offended by what he characterized as “banter.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017604\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1005px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017604\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-VALENTINO-RODRIGUEZ-JR-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1005\" height=\"670\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-VALENTINO-RODRIGUEZ-JR-02-KQED.jpg 1005w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-VALENTINO-RODRIGUEZ-JR-02-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-VALENTINO-RODRIGUEZ-JR-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1005px) 100vw, 1005px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Rodriguez in the office at his family’s business early in his career, dressed for work at San Quentin State Prison. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Rodriguez family)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>CDCR has a “zero tolerance” policy for discriminatory language and harassment. But in reviewing 80 cases of officer discrimination going back to 2015, KQED found that misconduct rarely led to firing, even in instances that involved unwanted touching or threatening a subordinate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Amid the violence and chaos of a maximum security prison, where trust is essential for officers’ safety, Rodriguez didn’t feel his team had his back. He complained to a friend over text that his colleagues refused to help him with an arrest, and that they disparaged him in front of prisoners; he said that the only person he trusted was Steele.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele was only partially aware of what was going on with Rodriguez, but he later told investigators that he noticed his friend would duck into the bathroom nearly every day before his shift. When Steele asked if he was OK, Rodriguez confided that his stress was so intense he often had to vomit before he went into the ISU. Steele recalled Rodriguez saying, “They just never stop teasing me. They don’t ever stop.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite this, Rodriguez continued to seek his colleagues’ approval — texting the group about his efforts to lose weight or a big drug bust he pulled off. Rodriguez’s father, Valentino Rodriguez Sr., told KQED he now regrets raising his son to be so eager to please and quick to forgive.[aside postID=news_11973330 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/oow_webbanner0122.png']Much later, Rodriguez would tell prison leaders that — from small things like playing video games on duty to planting drugs and weapons on prisoners in order to claim overtime for a bust — his team had been rife with misconduct. But at the time, he said nothing of this to Steele or anyone else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rodriguez kept another secret, too. He had struggled with opioid addiction in college before successfully kicking the habit in rehab. Mimy said that sometime during his stint at New Folsom he relapsed. By late 2019, the relentless harassment by his peers and the everyday violence he witnessed inside the prison walls was starting to pile up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, just before the Christmas holiday, a brutal murder in the prison would help tip Rodriguez past his breaking point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It would also shake Steele’s faith in the institution.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A killing in B8\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>On Dec. 12, 2019, 29-year-old Luis Giovanny Aguilar sat watching television in a common area of B8, a highly restricted unit reserved for people who were considered especially violent or dangerous. Aguilar — whose prison nickname was “Raskal” — had a reputation among officers for being “mouthy.” About a week earlier, on the way out of the shower back into the unit, he had kicked an officer in the chest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On surveillance footage leaked to KQED, Aguilar appeared unbothered as a group of officers brought two other men out of their cells and chained them to individual desks — Cody Taylor, a white man with a tattoo down his face, and Anthony Rodriguez, a heavyset Latino man with glasses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017603\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1494px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017603\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/10_05_08.95Aguilar.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1494\" height=\"753\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/10_05_08.95Aguilar.jpg 1494w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/10_05_08.95Aguilar-800x403.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/10_05_08.95Aguilar-1020x514.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/10_05_08.95Aguilar-160x81.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1494px) 100vw, 1494px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Luis Giovanny Aguilar, chained to his chair inside a high-security unit at New Folsom prison just moments before his death on Dec. 12, 2019. This still shot is from CDCR security camera footage that was leaked to KQED.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>This was supposed to be the most secure type of unit in the state. All the men had been strip-searched before stepping out of their cells. Their handcuffs were attached to a chain at their waists, and their feet were shackled together. Once seated, their ankles were also locked to the metal chairs they sat in. Overlooking the three men, a control booth officer sat behind a large window with a less lethal launcher, which fires foam rounds, and a deadly Mini-14 semi-automatic rifle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As soon as the officers filed out of the room, Taylor and Anthony Rodriguez got to work on their cuffs with tiny metal tools they had smuggled past the guards. They quickly escaped their restraints, headed up the stairs and retrieved makeshift weapons from beneath a cell door. Then they ran back down the stairs and attacked Aguilar, stabbing his upper chest, torso and head.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The assault lasted more than a minute. The control booth officer fired a few foam rounds, one of which hit Taylor, but the projectiles did not stop the attack. By the time officers entered the unit with guns drawn, Aguilar was unresponsive on the floor. He was taken to the on-site medical unit where he was pronounced dead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017602\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017602\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_3947-Tinkerbell-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1789\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_3947-Tinkerbell-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_3947-Tinkerbell-800x559.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_3947-Tinkerbell-1020x713.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_3947-Tinkerbell-160x112.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_3947-Tinkerbell-1536x1074.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_3947-Tinkerbell-2048x1432.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_3947-Tinkerbell-1920x1342.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A makeshift knife that was used in the attempted murder that was carried out by Cody Taylor, Anthony Rodriguez and Dion Green two months before the murder of Luis Giovanny Aguilar. This screenshot of CDCR’s evidence photograph was leaked to KQED.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>That same day, another incarcerated man in the unit claimed responsibility for the murder. Self-described prison gang “shot-caller” Dion Green told investigators he’d ordered Anthony Rodriguez and Taylor to kill Aguilar because it was gang “business,” and passed them the weapons under the door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the incident, Steele and Officer Rodriguez both had roles to play. Steele’s job was to help facilitate the prosecution of the three men. With Green’s confession and the whole thing caught on surveillance video, it appeared to be a straightforward case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But something about the murder didn’t sit right with Steele. In his book, he describes poring over the video footage “from start to finish innumerable times” to try to understand how it had happened. Given the extensive security protocols in B8, this kind of attack should not have been possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017600\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017600\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/046_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/046_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/046_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/046_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/046_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/046_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/046_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/046_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An incarcerated person is cuffed at his ankles to a desk during a group therapy session at California State Prison, Sacramento, also known as New Folsom, on April 13, 2023. These are similar to the ankle restraints used in the B8 unit. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Rodriguez, meanwhile, was assigned to write a report explaining the gang connections of the murder, and to attend the autopsy, which was gruesome. “Skull was full of blood,” he wrote in an update to Steele in which he detailed more than 50 stab wounds to Aguilar’s back, head and heart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rodriguez had seen violence and death before, but the images of dead bodies from this and other autopsies were getting harder to shake off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017601\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12017601\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/PHOTO-of-Val-Jr-reasons-to-leave-800x1067.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"1067\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A picture of a redacted note saved on Valentino Rodriguez’s phone from January 2020, shortly before he took a leave of absence for work-related stress. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Valentino Rodriguez Sr.)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I don’t want to take this stuff home. It will feed the ghost,” he texted his supervisor, Anderson, in early January.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But his work had already crept into his home and relationship. Mimy was increasingly upset about the long hours Rodriguez worked at the prison, and how even after his shift he was often withdrawn, irritable or too tired to talk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Valentino, we’re your family,” Mimy told him. “We love you. You know, if something happens to you, that job is just gonna replace you, but we can’t replace you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A few weeks after the B8 murder, Rodriguez walked into Steele’s office and announced he was resigning. In his book, Steele writes that he tried to convince the young officer to stay — he had too much talent to waste — but Rodriguez was adamant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ultimately, the chief deputy warden convinced Rodriguez to take a leave of absence for work-related stress, according to public documents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rodriguez returned home that day and sat down next to Mimy on their living room couch. Even though he hadn’t quit, he told her his career as a correctional officer was over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is my identity,” she remembers him saying. “I feel like I’ve given up on everything.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Hints and allegations\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Steele had little time to ruminate on his friend’s absence. As the COVID-19 pandemic slammed into all aspects of prison life in spring of 2020, Steele was tasked with helping prisoners appear in court, which now took place over Zoom. This put him in regular contact with the three men who’d been charged with Aguilar’s murder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele writes in his book that on separate occasions, as they waited for court to begin or some technical glitch to be resolved, both “shot-caller” Dion Green and Cody Taylor, one of the two stabbers, dropped hints that there was more to the murder than Steele knew.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The men’s insinuations added to some troubling evidence Steele had already come across, according to his book. Just two months before the murder, the same three men had carried out an almost identical attack on another incarcerated man, nearly killing him; yet after that incident, the suspects hadn’t been put in separate housing, as CDCR protocol dictates. Given this violent history, officers should have been on high alert, yet Taylor and his co-assailant, Anthony Rodriguez, had again slipped their cuffs when they killed Aguilar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SSuhezQmsM\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">Criminal justice reporter Sukey Lewis’ demonstration of the double-locking mechanism on the handcuffs that were generally used around the prisoners’ ankles, and how a ‘black box’ device works\u003c/i>. (Sukey Lewis and Maha Sanad/KQED)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That was especially surprising to Steele because the men were wearing “black boxes” over their restraints — tamper-resistant hard plastic shells that cover the cuffs’ keyhole and, when applied properly, are nearly impossible to escape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele also stumbled across an unusual incident while looking at archived surveillance footage: It showed Taylor loose in the B8 common room a week before the Aguilar murder, running up the stairs to retrieve something from beneath Green’s cell door. As Steele watched the video, he waited for officers to sound the alarm or enter the unit, but they didn’t. He notes in his book that this apparent “practice-run” wasn’t reported or documented.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In June, Taylor, who’d already pleaded guilty to the murder, sent a letter to the warden making a stunning claim: Officers had played a role in the killing. Steele was assigned to follow up. In a recording of that interview, which was leaked to KQED, Taylor told Steele that B8 officers had agreed not to fully lock his and Anthony Rodriguez’s cuffs, allowing the men to circumvent the tamper-proof black boxes, and to instruct the control booth officer not to use deadly force. In Taylor’s telling, officers facilitated the attack on Aguilar because he had assaulted one of their own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tar6yJvCMpM\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sgt. Kevin Steele interviewed Cody Taylor on July 3, 2020, about his allegations that officers enabled the murder of Luis Giovanny Aguilar. This video was edited from CDCR footage that was leaked to KQED. (Annie Fruit/KQED)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Anthony Rodriguez did not agree to speak to Steele, Green did. In a recorded interview that was leaked to KQED, Green echoed Taylor’s allegations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[Aguilar] would be alive today if it wasn’t for the assistance and\u003cbr>\nthe help of your staff,” Green told Steele.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>CDCR stated that it is “working with outside law enforcement agencies on this case” and could not comment. In court filings, attorneys for CDCR staff members have denied allegations that officers were involved in the killing. An FBI agent said in a phone call last year that they were investigating the case, but a spokesperson declined to officially confirm or deny the agency’s involvement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele shared Taylor and Green’s allegations with New Folsom’s warden, Jeff Lynch, with the chief deputy warden, and with his own supervisor, according to correspondence that was leaked to KQED and obtained through public records requests. Steele also sent the videos of his interviews and suggested giving Taylor and Green polygraph tests. The warden thanked Steele and told him New Folsom’s internal affairs lieutenant, Brandon Strohmaier, “will be chatting with you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At some point, prison administrators forwarded these allegations to CDCR’s Office of Internal Affairs in Sacramento, and to the FBI, which looks into allegations of civil rights abuses by law enforcement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But months passed, and Steele saw few signs that anyone had picked up the threads of his investigation. No one else came to interview Taylor or Green, and it appears no one followed up on Steele’s suggestion to polygraph them, according to documents, interviews with the men themselves and confidential sources familiar with the investigation. Early on, a handful of officers who were on duty the day of the murder were reassigned to the mailroom, but they weren’t suspended or banned from the facility (a way to limit officers’ access to the prison while they’re under criminal suspicion).\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017599\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017599\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/214_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/214_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/214_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/214_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/214_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/214_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/214_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/214_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Keys and handcuffs hang from the belt of a correctional officer in the Short Term Restricted Housing unit at California State Prison, Sacramento, also known as New Folsom prison, on April 13, 2023. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>CDCR’s Office of Internal Affairs often moves slowly, but emails obtained by KQED show this case was uniquely delayed, and a special agent was not assigned until a year after the murder, according to a report by the inspector general of prisons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, Steele started to feel the blowback for digging into the case. In his book, he describes being excluded from conversations in the ISU, and how, in the solitary unit where Taylor and Green were being held, officers who’d formerly been helpful began to display “agitation and unrest.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Perhaps most disturbing to Steele was that Green’s and Taylor’s allegations, which he’d passed up the chain of command in confidence, began circulating among prisoners — a sign, he thought, that his fellow officers were trying to undermine his work and endanger Taylor and Green.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There is a leak coming from someone,” Steele wrote in a follow-up email to the warden. This time, Lynch’s response was even more laconic: “Thank u.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Superhero\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>While on leave, Valentino Rodriguez had been working for his dad at the family pool business, writing bids for installation and repair. Even though he was still a correctional officer on paper, he was trying to leave the world of the prison behind. But the long-term effects of his years at New Folsom persisted. He wrestled with mounting depression and anxiety. He sought help from a therapist, but had trouble sharing his struggles with those closest to him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One afternoon that summer, Steele called. Rodriguez was at his dad’s house for a barbecue, and his father remembers that he disappeared for a couple of hours. He came back saying Steele had uncovered evidence that officers had a hand in the Aguilar murder, and that Steele had reported it up the chain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re starting to treat him like they treated me,” Rodriguez Sr. remembers his son telling him. “He’s scared.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele had also been encouraging Rodriguez to report the misconduct he’d witnessed, according to Mimy. But Rodriguez was nervous about what would happen to him and his family if he came forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mimy said her fiancé became increasingly fearful and reluctant to leave the house even to walk their dogs. He placed obstacles next to the front door so he could hear anyone trying to get in. He slept with his gun.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Is everything okay?” Mimy remembers asking him. “Who are you nervous about coming? What is going on?” Rodriguez never said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mimy tried to distract him with planning their upcoming wedding. She felt if they could just get through this year, they’d be able to put New Folsom behind them and start a family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But a few weeks before the ceremony, Rodriguez started a casual text conversation with Strohmaier, the ISU’s internal affairs lieutenant, about his upcoming marriage and other personal matters. Then Rodriguez let loose with a series of long texts describing his misery in the squad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That team is broken,” he wrote. “There is shit they do, say, or don’t do that could cause everyone from the Warden down to get the boot.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017958\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017958\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/230_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/230_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/230_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/230_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/230_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/230_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/230_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/230_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Jeff Lynch, warden at New Folsom prison, during a press tour on April 13, 2023. He is set to retire December 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It’s not clear why Rodriguez chose this moment to share his grievances with the person who fielded internal complaints at New Folsom, but Strohmaier eventually forwarded the messages to the warden, who asked Rodriguez to come talk to him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Twelve days after his wedding, Rodriguez walked back through the gates of New Folsom to expose the brotherhood of officers he’d once protected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Warden Jeff Lynch would later testify that in this meeting, Rodriguez told him the ISU was a “dysfunctional environment” that had driven him from the job and ruined his health. He also warned Lynch that he’d seen ISU officers — the institution’s police — breaking the law by planting drugs and weapons to get overtime. Lynch testified that he’d listened intently, and then asked him to write up his allegations in a formal memo. Rodriguez said he’d think about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mimy said that when her new husband came home, he looked like a weight had been lifted. “He felt confident that the warden was going to help,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017597\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12017597\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/super-hero-800x1067.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"1067\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/super-hero-800x1067.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/super-hero-160x213.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/super-hero.jpg 931w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Photograph of final messages between Rodriguez and Steele just hours before Rodriguez’s death. Rodriguez did not seek medical treatment for the health issue he describes, so it is unclear what exactly happened. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Valentino Rodriguez Sr.)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The following week, while Lynch was still waiting for Rodriguez’s memo, he ordered a search of the ISU for the contraband Rodriguez had mentioned. According to Lynch’s testimony, the search didn’t turn up anything concerning. But it did have an effect — now, the whole team knew someone had talked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele texted Rodriguez the next day to show his support: “I appreciate, admire and respect you!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I just hope that i am not mentioned at all to anyone,”\u003cbr>\nRodriguez texted back. “It took a lot out of me to re-live the truth…So much pain and fear.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Dude you are my superhero,” Steele responded. “Stay strong! I got you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Rodriguez was already spiraling. That evening, while Mimy was at dinner with friends, Rodriguez texted her to say he’d heard from two people at New Folsom who knew about his meeting with the warden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Which means it’s out now that i told on the team,” he wrote. “Tomorrow they want me to write a memo and i don’t know what ima do.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Mimy got home an hour later, she saw a light coming from the guest bathroom. There she found her husband of 19 days slumped against the wall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s his job,” she told a responding police officer. “This is all because of his job.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The coroner’s report notes that drug paraphernalia was next to Rodriguez’s body and classifies his death as an accident. The report also describes the scene — a wedding photo of Rodriguez and Mimy on the mantle and a stack of gifts in the corner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele found out about Rodriguez’s death through social media reports.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In his book, Steele compares Rodriguez to the New Testament figure Timothy, who was beaten to death by a pagan mob after speaking out against them. “In many ways,” he wrote, “young Valentino, like Timothy, would remain courageous and committed to the truth all the way till the end.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017596\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017596\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-30-BL-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-30-BL-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-30-BL-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-30-BL-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-30-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-30-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-30-BL-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-30-BL-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An altar made by Mimy Rodriguez for her late husband, Officer Valentino Rodriguez, sits on a shelf at her home in Sacramento on Nov. 6, 2023. Rodriguez loved ketchup and wore Giorgio Armani cologne. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Flight and fight\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The memorial mass was held under a large oak tree at the Catholic grammar school in West Sacramento. Valentino Rodriguez Sr., weighed down by grief, noticed a trim man with piercing blue eyes making his way forward through the receiving line. While he’d heard a lot about Steele, this was the first time they’d met in person. As Rodriguez Sr. remembers, Steele grabbed his shoulders and said, “If you need me for anything, I can help you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back at the prison that day, Steele taped pictures of Rodriguez up in the window of his office. He wanted the officers who’d harassed his friend to know he held them responsible, Steele later told Rodriguez’s father. The squad, in turn, shunned Steele and went so far as to file a complaint against him, which didn’t go anywhere, according to public records.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Warden Lynch sent out an email forbidding anyone in the ISU from speaking to the Rodriguez family. Even though the move could have been preventive — in the event of an investigation into the harassment of Rodriguez, CDCR policy would not allow staff to talk about the case — Steele saw the directive as an attempt at self-protection. Adding to Steele’s disappointment, the warden never called Rodriguez’s family to offer condolences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So when Rodriguez Sr., heartbroken and craving answers, reached out to Steele with texts and photos of his son as a boy, Steele wrote back. The two men began texting and talking on the phone nearly every day — discovering their shared Christian faith, their love for antique cars and their sorrow over the loss of Rodriguez.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rodriguez Sr. drew a direct line between his son’s overdose and New Folsom. In one of their telephone conversations, he even asked Steele if someone at the prison could have provided the fentanyl that killed him (KQED found no evidence to substantiate his concern). Steele urged Rodriguez Sr. to file a complaint with CDCR’s Office of Internal Affairs and gave him a contact at the FBI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017595\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017595\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231130-OnOurWatch-25-BL-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231130-OnOurWatch-25-BL-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231130-OnOurWatch-25-BL-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231130-OnOurWatch-25-BL-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231130-OnOurWatch-25-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231130-OnOurWatch-25-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231130-OnOurWatch-25-BL-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231130-OnOurWatch-25-BL-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Valentino Rodriguez Sr. stands in a warehouse at his West Sacramento pool business on Nov. 30, 2023, where his son Valentino Rodriguez Jr. worked while on leave from New Folsom before his untimely death. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While Steele told Rodriguez Sr. he could trust those agencies to do the right thing, his book reveals that he had his doubts. Years earlier, the Ronnie Price case had taught him that officers were capable of conspiracy and silence. The apathy he perceived in the wake of Aguilar’s homicide now appeared to be evidence of a dark and willful blindness. And the warden’s apparent focus on damage control rather than human suffering following a young officer’s death broke something inside him. Steele wondered if there were any limits to the corruption he felt closing in around him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lili said that, though he tried to hide it from her, her husband was afraid. “He literally would open up the door and look around the corner,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele wasn’t the first whistleblower to feel like he had a target on his back. Over the years, officers who have reported misconduct have found “rat” written on their windshield, received threatening phone calls, been left with no backup in dangerous situations and even been followed home at night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele had come forward internally, but he’d also been in touch with the FBI, according to text messages given to KQED. He’d passed along evidence he’d gathered regarding Aguilar’s murder and shared his suspicions that officers were somehow culpable. Steele believed that without him, any potential federal investigation would have few witnesses. Steele told Rodriguez Sr. that he had no idea how far CDCR would go to keep him quiet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so, Steele crafted an exit strategy. In January, he and Lili packed up their belongings and moved across the country to Miller County, Missouri, where Steele had spent time in the Air Force. His plan was to run through his vacation and sick days and then retire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017594\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017594\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/100605-F-1108H-322-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"2238\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/100605-F-1108H-322-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/100605-F-1108H-322-800x700.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/100605-F-1108H-322-1020x892.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/100605-F-1108H-322-160x140.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/100605-F-1108H-322-1536x1343.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/100605-F-1108H-322-2048x1791.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/100605-F-1108H-322-1920x1679.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Kevin Steele served in the US Air Force Reserve for 21 years before retiring as a master sergeant in April 2016. He deployed twice to Iraq and was commended for his service. \u003ccite>(US Air Force)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But Steele couldn’t resist firing off a couple of parting shots at New Folsom’s warden and CDCR — two incendiary memos alleging in detail the mistreatment of incarcerated people and officers’ role in the Aguilar murder. He included Rodriguez’s claims about ISU misconduct, and questioned Warden Lynch’s actions as a leader.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Addressing Lynch directly, he wrote: “You should consider the very likely possibility that during YOUR superintendence of [New Folsom], more staff will be charged for criminal activity than any other institution within the state.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A month after Steele had left the state, a notice, which was leaked to KQED, was posted at the front gate of New Folsom: Sgt. Kevin Steele was banned from prison grounds. While he had no plans to return, it stung.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He was crushed,” Lili remembers. Steele told her, “I would have died for that department.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele had trouble adapting to his new life in the Ozarks. He applied for a couple jobs and interviewed well, but didn’t get them. Lili said he suspected someone at the prison had somehow interfered, though as far as she knew, prison officials still thought they were in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele still woke up before 4 a.m., but now he had nowhere to go.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘My Thoughts’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>On March 15, 2021, Steele sent Rodriguez Sr. a link to \u003ca href=\"https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertsamaha/the-prison-guard-who-couldnt-escape-prison\">a Buzzfeed article about a correctional officer at High Desert State Prison in Northern California who had reported misconduct\u003c/a>, only to find his colleagues turning on him. The officer was found dead by apparent suicide in 2011. Among some notes with messages for his family was one that read, “I told the truth.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The actual number of suicides among CDCR’s 30,000 officers is unknown; the agency said it doesn’t track those deaths out of respect for employees’ privacy. But KQED has been able to confirm that at least 30 officers who had worked for CDCR died by suicide from 2020 through 2023. Steele dealt with this firsthand; he’d counseled an officer who was struggling with thoughts of suicide and even interrupted a prison employee trying to asphyxiate themselves in a garage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017640\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017640\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_0848.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1920\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_0848.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_0848-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_0848-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_0848-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_0848-1536x1152.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_0848-2048x1536.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_0848-1920x1440.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">These badges represent the 30 CDCR correctional officers who took their own lives from 2020 through 2023. \u003ccite>(Anna Vignet/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In response to \u003ca href=\"https://gspp.berkeley.edu/research-and-impact/publications/officer-health-and-wellness-results-from-the-california-correctional-office\">a 2017 UC Berkeley survey of CDCR officers\u003c/a>, 1 in 10 said they had suicidal thoughts. That’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/ss/ss7101a1.htm\">more than twice the national average reported by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention\u003c/a>. A CDCR spokesperson wrote in an email that the department is “committed to promoting the mental health and wellbeing” of its employees, who have access to a number of interventions and services including chaplains and therapists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele did speak to a chaplain, but, like a lot of officers, he was wary of mental health professionals, fearing that if he sought help the institution would use it against him. Instead, Lili said, her husband “self-medicated” with alcohol to get to sleep at night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In April of 2021, Steele got some news that buoyed his spirits. Daniel Garland, one of the officers who’d mistreated Rodriguez, had been banned from the institution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, it seemed to Rodriguez Sr. and Steele that their efforts to hold someone accountable for Rodriguez’s death were finally starting to bear fruit. They expected to see more repercussions for everyone who’d harassed Rodriguez, or known about it and done nothing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017593\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12017593\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-KEVIN-STEELE-03-KQED-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-KEVIN-STEELE-03-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-KEVIN-STEELE-03-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-KEVIN-STEELE-03-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-KEVIN-STEELE-03-KQED.jpg 1507w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The red storage shed where Sgt. Kevin Steele was found deceased on August 20, 2021. Photo obtained from the Sheriff’s Dept. in Miller County, Mo., via public records request.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Justice is beginning to simmer!” Steele texted Rodriguez Sr.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But four months later, on Aug. 20, 2021, Steele called up Rodriguez Sr. in a rage. He’d just received a call from CDCR’s Office of Internal Affairs to schedule an interview about the Aguilar murder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It had been 20 months since Aguilar was killed, over a year since Steele passed on evidence that officers might be involved, and eight months since Steele sent his explosive memo to the warden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rodriguez Sr. remembers Steele venting: “Why are they just wrapping this up? All of a sudden they’re in a hurry?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Less than an hour later, a home security camera captured Steele walking out of his open garage. The footage, obtained by KQED through a public records request, shows him crossing the driveway toward his shed at 5:23 p.m. dressed in an orange T-shirt and shorts. He’s holding one end of a blue nylon rope in his hand. The other end of the rope is looped around his neck. He reaches the shed door and passes out of view.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017592\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 1246px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017592\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/MyThoughtsRedactedScreenshot.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1246\" height=\"742\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/MyThoughtsRedactedScreenshot.jpg 1246w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/MyThoughtsRedactedScreenshot-800x476.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/MyThoughtsRedactedScreenshot-1020x607.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/MyThoughtsRedactedScreenshot-160x95.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1246px) 100vw, 1246px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A screenshot of the note found on Steele’s computer. KQED redacted the names of the CDCR officials in Steele’s note to protect their privacy. Obtained from the Sheriff’s Dept. in Miller County, Mo. via public records request.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The next day, Lili found a document on the home computer titled “My Thoughts.” It read, in part:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Lili is my angel, my light and my survivor.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In an apparent reference to the time of day that Jesus died on the cross, he wrote, “I know what time it is … it is the 9th hour and no one is here.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“CDCR killed me, I told the truth and shielded the truth… These barbarians killed Valentino and I.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The letter included a list of names of CDCR officials he held responsible for his and his friend’s deaths. Under the list were the note’s final three words: “Cowards and Bandits!”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Aftermath\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Shortly after Steele’s death, CDCR internal affairs agents finally conducted their first interviews with the officers who had been implicated in the death of Luis Giovanny Aguilar — nearly two years after his murder. They never interviewed Green, the shot caller, or the men who stabbed Aguilar, according to a confidential source familiar with the investigation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Office of the Inspector General (OIG), a state-level prison watchdog, rated the department’s handling of the case “poor.” In a report, the OIG faulted the agency for “unnecessary” delays and poor interview techniques “that failed to elicit the details of each officers’ involvement and knowledge of events and failed to ask follow-up questions.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The report shows that CDCR ultimately sustained allegations that one officer failed to respond to alarms the day Aguilar was stabbed. The officer in the control booth was disciplined for not having his Mini-14 rifle on him during the attack. Each got a temporary 5% pay cut. A third officer was given the heaviest punishment, a temporary 10% pay cut, for recording the murder footage on his phone and sharing it with a colleague.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017591\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12017591\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-LUIS-GIOVANNY-AGUILAR-01-KQED-800x800.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"800\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-LUIS-GIOVANNY-AGUILAR-01-KQED-800x800.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-LUIS-GIOVANNY-AGUILAR-01-KQED-160x160.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-LUIS-GIOVANNY-AGUILAR-01-KQED.jpg 898w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The last time that Luis Giovanny Aguilar saw his mother, Ma Rosario Zaragoza, in Tijuana, Mexico, 2018. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Aguilar family)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>An ongoing lawsuit filed by Aguilar’s mother against Warden Lynch and the officers in the B8 unit alleges staff either conspired to kill her son, or at the very least failed to protect him. In court filings, lawyers for CDCR have denied that prison staff were involved in the homicide. The FBI declined to comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Garland, along with an officer who’d used the N-word and other derogatory language in the office, was fired. Two more ISU team members were given lengthy pay cuts for calling Rodriguez half-patch and failing to report misconduct; they both work at different prisons now. (All four officers have submitted appeals to state court, which are pending.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>New Folsom remains a violent place; four incarcerated people were killed at the prison this year, three at the hands of other prisoners, and one after being restrained by officers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lynch is retiring this month. Jason Schultz, who worked at New Folsom from 2008 through 2020, was named acting warden in November.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since Steele’s suicide in 2021, CDCR has made some important changes; last year, Governor Gavin Newsom introduced the “California Model” of prison management, which borrows its ethos of reintegration and emotional well-being from the Norwegian approach to incarceration. Officers at certain prisons, including New Folsom, now wear body cameras. And CDCR put in place a new process for reviewing grievances against staff, which the department says will “ensure complaints are properly, fairly and thoroughly reviewed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yet, despite months of KQED’s attempts to get answers, no one from the agency would address the underlying question raised by the deaths of Steele and Rodriguez: How successful can any reforms be if officers remain afraid to report misconduct, and if the few who come forward risk being marginalized and ignored?\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘Uncontestable’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When a person in state custody takes their own life, an independent panel reviews the circumstances and makes a determination about how it could have been prevented. But there is no such accounting of the circumstances surrounding officer suicides. In a 2023 interview, Stephen Walker, who advocates for mental health resources on behalf of the correctional officers’ union, told KQED that if these deaths were happening in any other occupation, “there would be a mass public outcry calling for an investigation into what is happening and what is at the root of this many people losing their lives.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017590\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017590\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-35-BL-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-35-BL-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-35-BL-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-35-BL-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-35-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-35-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-35-BL-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-35-BL-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mimy Rodriguez holds a framed wedding photo of herself and her late husband, Officer Valentino Rodriguez, at her home in Sacramento, Calif., on Nov. 6, 2023. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After Rodriguez and Steele died, the state insurance fund sent each of their widows instructions on how to receive survivor benefits. There were two options: The simpler path was to sign a form stating that the men’s deaths were unrelated to their jobs. Neither woman could bring herself to sign.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The alternative was to argue that their husbands had died as a direct result of working in the prison. Initially, those claims were denied, and Lili and Mimy had to go through the painful process of documenting their husbands’ decline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A doctor who reviewed Rodriguez’s medical records on behalf of the state found that his drug use was related to depression, anxiety and panic attacks stemming from his job at New Folsom. “This claim appears to be uncontestable,” he wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mimy Rodriguez cried when she received a letter from the state saying that her husband’s death “was the result of his employment” at New Folsom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lili Steele’s claim was also granted: A workers’ compensation review of Steele’s writings and an interview with Lili found that psychological strain from his job at the prison contributed to his suicide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The claim, Lili said, was her way of saying, “I know what you people did to him.”\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>If you or someone you know is struggling with suicidal thoughts, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is a collaboration between KQED, the \u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">California Reporting Project\u003c/a> and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californianewsroom\">California Newsroom\u003c/a>, and was made possible in part by support from \u003ca href=\"https://www.calendow.org\">The California Endowment\u003c/a>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Lead editor: \u003ca href=\"https://www.markbetancourt.com/\">Mark Betancourt\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Data analysis: Amanda Glazer, PhD Candidate at UC Berkeley Statistics; Jeremy Sanchez Rue, Associate Professor of Practice at UC Berkeley Journalism.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Additional research by students at \u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">Berkeley Journalism’s Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/a>: Julietta Bisharyan, Laura Fitzgerald, William Jenkins, Cayla Mihalovich, Armon Owlia, Kathleen Quinn, Elizabeth Santos, Vera Watt and Junyao Yang. Additional support from UC Berkeley Journalism’s David Barstow.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Exclusive analysis of hundreds of internal use-of-force records, dozens of leaked documents and videos, and interviews with current and former corrections officers reveal a culture of cover-ups that enabled the abuse of incarcerated people, officer-on-officer harassment and at least two homicides at New Folsom.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>Warning: This story contains graphic language, and descriptions of violence and suicide. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class=\"utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__dropcapShortcode__dropcap\">W\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>hen Lili Steele got home from work on that hot, humid evening in August 2021, she expected to find her husband, Sgt. Kevin Steele, sitting at his desk working on his book. The couple had moved to a rural area near Missouri’s Lake of the Ozarks after Steele had taken a leave of absence from his job as an investigator in a high-security prison in Folsom, California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Writing the book, Lili said, “was his new job.” The manuscript chronicled Steele’s decade at the prison, where he had become increasingly frustrated with a system he came to see as corrupt and antithetical to his deep Christian faith. His project had an ominous working title: \u003cem>The Thin Line Blurs…How to Kill a Cop…Betrayal\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the 56-year-old wasn’t at his desk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lili called Steele’s phone and found it ringing on the kitchen counter. She started to panic; she knew her husband had been struggling. Months earlier, he’d told her that he was haunted by a “trailer of dead people.” Some were soldiers he’d served alongside in Iraq who hadn’t made it home. The rest were from the \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdcr.ca.gov/facility-locator/sac/\">California State Prison, Sacramento\u003c/a>, known colloquially as New Folsom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was Ronnie Price, the 65-year-old whose arms were shackled behind his back when correctional officers slammed him to the ground, fatally injuring him. There was Luis Giovanny Aguilar, the young man who’d been stabbed to death by two other incarcerated men in full view of officers. Finally, and perhaps most painfully, there was his friend, officer Valentino Rodriguez Jr., who’d died of a fentanyl overdose six days after blowing the whistle on fellow officers for alleged misconduct.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Kevin, you didn’t kill those people, you tried to help,” Lili remembers telling her husband. “You followed the protocol, the chain of command. You told the people in charge. It’s up to them to carry the ball now.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After searching the house, Lili walked from the open garage across their driveway to a red storage shed. That’s where she found her husband already dead. Steele had hanged himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a recording of the 911 call, the dispatcher can be heard asking Lili if her husband had been sick.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“No,” she sobbed. “He’s been dealing with a lot of stuff from his work.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Considered in isolation, Steele’s suicide might have been chalked up to one man’s struggle, but the timing — less than a year after the death of his friend Rodriguez, who worked in the same elite unit — points at something larger. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/onourwatch\">A multiyear KQED investigation and an eight-part podcast called On Our Watch\u003c/a> found a persistent code of silence among New Folsom officers that went largely unchecked by prison leadership and the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation (CDCR). An exclusive analysis of hundreds of internal use-of-force records, dozens of leaked documents and videos, and interviews with current and former CDCR officers revealed a culture of cover-ups that enabled the abuse of incarcerated people, officer-on-officer harassment and at least two homicides at the prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017610\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017610\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/020_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/020_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/020_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/020_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/020_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/020_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/020_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/020_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An armed correctional officer looks from a window of the Short Term Restricted Housing (STRH) unit entrance at California State Prison, Sacramento, also known as New Folsom, on April 13, 2023. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A spokesperson said in an email that CDCR “maintains a zero-tolerance policy on code of silence” and that the agency “is fundamentally reforming its approach to addressing allegations of staff misconduct to enhance staff accountability and improve transparency.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the past year and a half the agency declined KQED’s multiple requests to interview New Folsom’s outgoing warden, Jeff Lynch, and the head of the agency, Secretary Jeff Macomber, who served as the warden there from 2013 to 2016. The agency also did not respond to a request to speak with Jason Schultz, who was appointed acting warden in November. CDCR representatives have repeatedly declined to answer questions about the high rate of use of force at New Folsom. They said they could not comment on specific allegations made by Steele and Rodriguez before their deaths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But a trove of written and recorded materials left behind by the two officers and obtained by KQED details their fear of retribution and sense of despair as they tried to expose misconduct in their institution.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Outlier\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Steele started off as a true believer. Hired by CDCR in 2001, he was initially assigned to San Quentin before transferring to New Folsom in 2008. Sprawled along the American River just outside Sacramento, the prison houses about 2,200 people, many of whom have mental health needs or have been convicted of the most serious crimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Working as a correctional officer appealed to the sense of duty and service Steele had enjoyed in his Air Force career, while also promising good benefits and opportunities for advancement. The sergeant’s brother, Michael, said he liked to claim that nobody “worked harder than a Steele.” If his shift started at five in the morning, he’d arrive at four. Each day on his way into New Folsom, Steele walked past the Gothic green tower of the adjoining old Folsom prison (made famous by Johnny Cash) carrying his lunch in a clear plastic bag through the checkpoint of the newer facility. Once he clocked in, “he didn’t stop moving,” said Steele’s colleague, retired correctional officer Annette Eichhorn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Prison leadership entrusted Steele with a lot of responsibilities, from drug testing officers to leading annual trainings. In 2015, he was promoted to prosecution coordinator in the Investigative Services Unit (ISU). Known among officers and incarcerated people as the “squad,” the specialized team serves as the police force for the prison, investigating crimes committed by prisoners and complaints against staff, including for excessive use of force.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017609\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017609\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/258_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/258_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/258_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/258_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/258_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/258_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/258_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/258_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The East Gate of old Folsom Prison in Sacramento, where Johnny Cash played in 1968. New Folsom, which was initially administered by old Folsom’s warden, opened in 1986. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Officers can lawfully use their hands, batons and even the weight of their bodies to subdue prisoners who resist, or ignore their commands. They can deploy less lethal weapons like pepper spray and foam bullets to stop fights or break up riots. If someone’s life is in danger, officers can respond with deadly force. In general, force has to be proportional to the threat, and cannot be used after a threat has been subdued, or as retaliation or punishment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even among high-security prisons, where violent encounters with staff are most common, New Folsom stands out: It had the highest overall use-of-force rate of any California state prison from 2009 through 2023, \u003ca href=\"https://academic.oup.com/jrssig/article-abstract/21/5/16/7803753?redirectedFrom=fulltext\">according to an in-depth analysis of CDCR reports published by researchers\u003c/a> at University of California, Berkeley, in partnership with KQED. CDCR has not yet posted all the data for this year, but numbers released so far show that use-of-force rates at New Folsom remain the highest in the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/HT2gx/8/\" width=\"800\" height=\"580\" scrolling=\"yes\" class=\"iframe-class\" frameborder=\"0\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>New Folsom has been even more of an outlier when it comes to the most serious cases — those in which officers use deadly force or badly injure incarcerated people. KQED’s exclusive analysis of investigative records from 2014 through 2019 revealed that New Folsom had three times as many of these cases as any other prison in the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/GLkYl/9/\" width=\"800\" height=\"900\" scrolling=\"yes\" class=\"iframe-class\" frameborder=\"0\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A CDCR spokesperson told KQED last year that she took issue with KQED’s analysis of general use-of-force data, but the agency did not respond to further detailed requests for clarification and questions regarding these findings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Warden Jeff Lynch appeared unaware of an unusual level of officer violence at New Folsom. Asked about it during a media tour of the facility in April 2023, he said use-of-force rates at his prison were “probably pretty similar” to other high-security facilities in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But over the years, Steele had raised grave concerns about officer violence to prison leadership. It was part of his job to collect the statements of prisoners who’d been injured by guards, and he’d noticed a troubling pattern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017606\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017606\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/187_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/187_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/187_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/187_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/187_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/187_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/187_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/187_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An officer escorts a prisoner to a cell in the Short Term Restricted Housing unit at California State Prison, Sacramento, also known as New Folsom, on April 13, 2023. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>A cover-up\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>On Sept. 16, 2016, Steele interviewed 65-year-old Ronnie Price as he lay handcuffed on a gurney in the hallway of the UC Davis Medical Center with visible trauma to his face that included missing teeth and a broken jaw.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In his unfinished book, Steele wrote that he expected to find a “combative, disruptive and quarrelsome inmate,” but instead found Price “pleasant and amicable.” Steele recalled Price telling him that officers had tried to force him to move to the cell of an active gang member, which Price feared would mean trouble.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a recording of the interview acquired by KQED, Price told Steele that during the escort he passively resisted officers, who then shackled his feet together. His hands were already chained behind his back. As they walked him through the rotunda of the housing unit — an area not covered by surveillance cameras — Price said an officer stepped on the chain between his ankles, causing him to fall face-first onto the cement floor. Price told Steele that as he raised his head to spit out his bloody teeth, “Somebody grabbed my head and slammed it into the ground.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017608\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 640px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-large wp-image-12017608\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-KQED-1020x1275.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"640\" height=\"800\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-KQED-1020x1275.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-KQED-800x1000.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-KQED-160x200.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-KQED-1228x1536.jpg 1228w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-KQED.jpg 1374w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 640px) 100vw, 640px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Prison portrait of Ronnie Price, who died in 2016 as a result of injuries caused by correctional staff. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Price family)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The next day, Price died of a pulmonary embolism related to his injuries, according to the coroner’s report. Steele attended the autopsy and then contacted his bosses. “I was very specific when I advised the administration and my supervisor that I believed that staff were responsible for the death of Inmate Price,” he writes in his book.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Internal documents obtained by KQED through a public records request show that officers wrote the incident up to make it look like Price posed an active threat, claiming that he’d “spun to his left, and lunged forward breaking free” of the escort and that “immediate force” was used “to overcome” resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But after lengthy investigations by the FBI and CDCR, five officers and a sergeant would lose their jobs, and three of them would be convicted of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11929335/former-new-folsom-officer-sentenced-to-more-than-12-years-in-federal-prison-for-inmates-death\">federal charges related to excessive force and efforts to cover up the truth about Price’s death\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It is exceedingly rare for officers to be disciplined for injuring people in California prisons, but Steele believed the Price cover-up was not an isolated incident. Over the next year, he reported at least two more incidents in which officers’ version of events failed to explain the severe injuries of the men he spoke to. Joel Uribe and Ramiro Navarro, independently made strikingly similar allegations in their use-of-force interviews with Steele: During separate escorts, officers had stopped in an area not covered by surveillance cameras and badly beat them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Please don’t think I’m exaggerating,” said Uribe, 50, who’s still in prison but no longer at New Folsom. “They really wanted to have me killed.” Uribe told KQED he was targeted because staff wrongly suspected that he had helped provoke an attack on an officer. Navarro, 56, said in a phone interview from prison that officers punched and hit him with a metal tool. He told Steele the last thing he remembered before he “passed out” was an officer kicking him in the head. Both men were in restraints for the escort, according to case documents, and denied provoking the officers’ assaults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017607\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12017607\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-7219-Form-KQED-800x1029.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"1029\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-7219-Form-KQED-800x1029.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-7219-Form-KQED-1020x1312.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-7219-Form-KQED-160x206.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-7219-Form-KQED-1194x1536.jpg 1194w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-7219-Form-KQED-1592x2048.jpg 1592w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-7219-Form-KQED-1920x2471.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-Ronnie-Price-7219-Form-KQED-scaled.jpg 1990w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">CDCR medical form indicating Ronnie Price’s injuries. Obtained from CDCR via public records request.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But an officer claimed in his report that Uribe “spun around” and struck out with a walking cane, at which point the officer used “immediate physical force to overcome resistance, subdue an attack and effect custody.” A supervisor wrote that after Navarro “aggressively swung his head” in an attempt to headbutt them, officers used “the minimal amount of physical force needed to place Navarro in a prone position.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Documents show that Uribe suffered a concussion, broken ribs, and a face laceration; he told KQED he still has hearing loss in one of his ears. Navarro’s ribs were also broken, and doctors inserted a chest tube to drain blood from around his lung, reports show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite internal investigations and formal complaints made by Uribe and Navarro, no officers were ever disciplined. Instead, documents show that both prisoners were written up for the incidents; each said they were sent to solitary confinement for a year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In all, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11977062/4-foul-play-s2-new-folsom\">a dozen men who were incarcerated at New Folsom told KQED\u003c/a> that officers had used force as retaliation for causing trouble, submitting complaints or even attempting suicide, which triggers a protocol that means extra work for officers. Many of these men had filed formal grievances, but to little effect. Internal reports documenting serious use-of-force incidents at New Folsom from 2014 through 2021 show that, aside from the case involving Price, only one other incident resulted in discipline for an officer, who CDCR fired for using a prohibited chokehold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Unlike Steele, many CDCR employees chose not to speak up. Four current and former correctional officers — who asked KQED for anonymity because they feared for their job security or physical safety — said that it was well known that some officers would beat up incarcerated people. Each said they witnessed at least one of these beatings firsthand, but did not report misconduct due to fear of retaliation from their fellow officers or supervisors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m sorry that we were too fearful to do the right thing when we were there,” said one retired officer. “But to live under that kind of fear, I can’t explain to you.”\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/d8-DcbCqgpc'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/d8-DcbCqgpc'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>Sgt. Kevin Steele conducted use-of-force interviews with incarcerated people; subjects’ faces were redacted by the agency. Edited from video footage obtained from CDCR via public records request. (Annie Fruit/KQED)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The rookie\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In late 2018, correctional officer Valentino Rodriguez walked into the ISU office for his first day on the job. Steele writes in his book that the 28-year-old was “fresh-faced and eager to overachieve.” Rodriguez had stopped by Adalberto’s Mexican Food that morning to pick up breakfast burritos for the whole team — an office tradition by which new members would gain acceptance into the squad. But as the morning wore on, the offering was ignored; to Steele this was a deliberate snub, and he’d see it as an omen of what was to come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017605\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 683px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017605\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-VALENTINO-RODRIGUEZ-JR-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"683\" height=\"854\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-VALENTINO-RODRIGUEZ-JR-04-KQED.jpg 683w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-VALENTINO-RODRIGUEZ-JR-04-KQED-160x200.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 683px) 100vw, 683px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Valentino Rodriguez Jr. with his mother Erma Rodriguez at his graduation from CDCR’s officer academy in Galt, California, May 1, 2015. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Rodriguez family)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Officers often wait years to get tapped for the squad. Rodriguez had earned kudos as a sharp report writer and a hard worker, but he was relatively inexperienced. Some in the unit thought he’d “skipped the line,” according to officers’ later testimony in a disciplinary hearing. They began calling Rodriguez “half-patch,” suggesting he hadn’t fully earned the special black and green badge of the ISU uniform.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In contrast, Steele welcomed the new guy. In his book, he describes thanking Rodriguez for the food that first day and taking an extra burrito home “so as not to waste his act of kindness.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The two men worked in different divisions of the squad — Steele was in Criminal Prosecution while Rodriguez had been assigned to Security and Investigations — but Steele always had a positive word for the younger officer. “You inspire me!” Steele texted him on more than one occasion. Sometimes, on the weekends, they’d carpool to law enforcement seminars where they could brush up on the latest drug interdiction tools or California’s prison gangs. And Steele became a lifeline for Rodriguez when he needed advice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the coldness from Rodriguez’s closest teammates soon turned to open hostility, according to KQED’s review of text messages in Rodriguez’s phone. One officer in particular, Daniel Garland, taunted him regularly. He called him “fag,” and told him to “sukadik” on a group chat. Garland did not agree to speak to KQED for this story, but his attorney said her client’s actions did not rise to the level of harassment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rodriguez’s direct supervisor, Sgt. David Anderson, who was on some of the text threads, did not intervene (Anderson later told investigators “I should have stepped in,” according to public documents). Rodriguez complained in a text to another officer that Anderson would bad-mouth Steele and other senior officers in front of his subordinates, and then threaten to throw Rodriguez off the squad if he said anything. Rodriguez told his fiancée, Mimy, that his supervisor once put his hands around Rodriguez’s neck and told him he could “make it look like an accident.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Anderson, who was promoted to lieutenant in 2022, did not respond to multiple requests for comment. He told investigators that he treated Rodriguez the same as everyone else, and did not believe the young officer had been offended by what he characterized as “banter.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017604\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1005px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017604\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-VALENTINO-RODRIGUEZ-JR-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1005\" height=\"670\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-VALENTINO-RODRIGUEZ-JR-02-KQED.jpg 1005w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-VALENTINO-RODRIGUEZ-JR-02-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-VALENTINO-RODRIGUEZ-JR-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1005px) 100vw, 1005px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Rodriguez in the office at his family’s business early in his career, dressed for work at San Quentin State Prison. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Rodriguez family)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>CDCR has a “zero tolerance” policy for discriminatory language and harassment. But in reviewing 80 cases of officer discrimination going back to 2015, KQED found that misconduct rarely led to firing, even in instances that involved unwanted touching or threatening a subordinate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Amid the violence and chaos of a maximum security prison, where trust is essential for officers’ safety, Rodriguez didn’t feel his team had his back. He complained to a friend over text that his colleagues refused to help him with an arrest, and that they disparaged him in front of prisoners; he said that the only person he trusted was Steele.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele was only partially aware of what was going on with Rodriguez, but he later told investigators that he noticed his friend would duck into the bathroom nearly every day before his shift. When Steele asked if he was OK, Rodriguez confided that his stress was so intense he often had to vomit before he went into the ISU. Steele recalled Rodriguez saying, “They just never stop teasing me. They don’t ever stop.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite this, Rodriguez continued to seek his colleagues’ approval — texting the group about his efforts to lose weight or a big drug bust he pulled off. Rodriguez’s father, Valentino Rodriguez Sr., told KQED he now regrets raising his son to be so eager to please and quick to forgive.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Much later, Rodriguez would tell prison leaders that — from small things like playing video games on duty to planting drugs and weapons on prisoners in order to claim overtime for a bust — his team had been rife with misconduct. But at the time, he said nothing of this to Steele or anyone else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rodriguez kept another secret, too. He had struggled with opioid addiction in college before successfully kicking the habit in rehab. Mimy said that sometime during his stint at New Folsom he relapsed. By late 2019, the relentless harassment by his peers and the everyday violence he witnessed inside the prison walls was starting to pile up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, just before the Christmas holiday, a brutal murder in the prison would help tip Rodriguez past his breaking point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It would also shake Steele’s faith in the institution.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A killing in B8\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>On Dec. 12, 2019, 29-year-old Luis Giovanny Aguilar sat watching television in a common area of B8, a highly restricted unit reserved for people who were considered especially violent or dangerous. Aguilar — whose prison nickname was “Raskal” — had a reputation among officers for being “mouthy.” About a week earlier, on the way out of the shower back into the unit, he had kicked an officer in the chest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On surveillance footage leaked to KQED, Aguilar appeared unbothered as a group of officers brought two other men out of their cells and chained them to individual desks — Cody Taylor, a white man with a tattoo down his face, and Anthony Rodriguez, a heavyset Latino man with glasses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017603\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1494px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017603\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/10_05_08.95Aguilar.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1494\" height=\"753\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/10_05_08.95Aguilar.jpg 1494w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/10_05_08.95Aguilar-800x403.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/10_05_08.95Aguilar-1020x514.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/10_05_08.95Aguilar-160x81.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1494px) 100vw, 1494px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Luis Giovanny Aguilar, chained to his chair inside a high-security unit at New Folsom prison just moments before his death on Dec. 12, 2019. This still shot is from CDCR security camera footage that was leaked to KQED.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>This was supposed to be the most secure type of unit in the state. All the men had been strip-searched before stepping out of their cells. Their handcuffs were attached to a chain at their waists, and their feet were shackled together. Once seated, their ankles were also locked to the metal chairs they sat in. Overlooking the three men, a control booth officer sat behind a large window with a less lethal launcher, which fires foam rounds, and a deadly Mini-14 semi-automatic rifle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As soon as the officers filed out of the room, Taylor and Anthony Rodriguez got to work on their cuffs with tiny metal tools they had smuggled past the guards. They quickly escaped their restraints, headed up the stairs and retrieved makeshift weapons from beneath a cell door. Then they ran back down the stairs and attacked Aguilar, stabbing his upper chest, torso and head.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The assault lasted more than a minute. The control booth officer fired a few foam rounds, one of which hit Taylor, but the projectiles did not stop the attack. By the time officers entered the unit with guns drawn, Aguilar was unresponsive on the floor. He was taken to the on-site medical unit where he was pronounced dead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017602\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017602\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_3947-Tinkerbell-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1789\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_3947-Tinkerbell-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_3947-Tinkerbell-800x559.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_3947-Tinkerbell-1020x713.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_3947-Tinkerbell-160x112.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_3947-Tinkerbell-1536x1074.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_3947-Tinkerbell-2048x1432.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_3947-Tinkerbell-1920x1342.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A makeshift knife that was used in the attempted murder that was carried out by Cody Taylor, Anthony Rodriguez and Dion Green two months before the murder of Luis Giovanny Aguilar. This screenshot of CDCR’s evidence photograph was leaked to KQED.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>That same day, another incarcerated man in the unit claimed responsibility for the murder. Self-described prison gang “shot-caller” Dion Green told investigators he’d ordered Anthony Rodriguez and Taylor to kill Aguilar because it was gang “business,” and passed them the weapons under the door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the incident, Steele and Officer Rodriguez both had roles to play. Steele’s job was to help facilitate the prosecution of the three men. With Green’s confession and the whole thing caught on surveillance video, it appeared to be a straightforward case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But something about the murder didn’t sit right with Steele. In his book, he describes poring over the video footage “from start to finish innumerable times” to try to understand how it had happened. Given the extensive security protocols in B8, this kind of attack should not have been possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017600\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017600\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/046_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/046_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/046_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/046_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/046_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/046_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/046_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/046_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An incarcerated person is cuffed at his ankles to a desk during a group therapy session at California State Prison, Sacramento, also known as New Folsom, on April 13, 2023. These are similar to the ankle restraints used in the B8 unit. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Rodriguez, meanwhile, was assigned to write a report explaining the gang connections of the murder, and to attend the autopsy, which was gruesome. “Skull was full of blood,” he wrote in an update to Steele in which he detailed more than 50 stab wounds to Aguilar’s back, head and heart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rodriguez had seen violence and death before, but the images of dead bodies from this and other autopsies were getting harder to shake off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017601\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12017601\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/PHOTO-of-Val-Jr-reasons-to-leave-800x1067.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"1067\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A picture of a redacted note saved on Valentino Rodriguez’s phone from January 2020, shortly before he took a leave of absence for work-related stress. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Valentino Rodriguez Sr.)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I don’t want to take this stuff home. It will feed the ghost,” he texted his supervisor, Anderson, in early January.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But his work had already crept into his home and relationship. Mimy was increasingly upset about the long hours Rodriguez worked at the prison, and how even after his shift he was often withdrawn, irritable or too tired to talk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Valentino, we’re your family,” Mimy told him. “We love you. You know, if something happens to you, that job is just gonna replace you, but we can’t replace you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A few weeks after the B8 murder, Rodriguez walked into Steele’s office and announced he was resigning. In his book, Steele writes that he tried to convince the young officer to stay — he had too much talent to waste — but Rodriguez was adamant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ultimately, the chief deputy warden convinced Rodriguez to take a leave of absence for work-related stress, according to public documents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rodriguez returned home that day and sat down next to Mimy on their living room couch. Even though he hadn’t quit, he told her his career as a correctional officer was over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is my identity,” she remembers him saying. “I feel like I’ve given up on everything.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Hints and allegations\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Steele had little time to ruminate on his friend’s absence. As the COVID-19 pandemic slammed into all aspects of prison life in spring of 2020, Steele was tasked with helping prisoners appear in court, which now took place over Zoom. This put him in regular contact with the three men who’d been charged with Aguilar’s murder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele writes in his book that on separate occasions, as they waited for court to begin or some technical glitch to be resolved, both “shot-caller” Dion Green and Cody Taylor, one of the two stabbers, dropped hints that there was more to the murder than Steele knew.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The men’s insinuations added to some troubling evidence Steele had already come across, according to his book. Just two months before the murder, the same three men had carried out an almost identical attack on another incarcerated man, nearly killing him; yet after that incident, the suspects hadn’t been put in separate housing, as CDCR protocol dictates. Given this violent history, officers should have been on high alert, yet Taylor and his co-assailant, Anthony Rodriguez, had again slipped their cuffs when they killed Aguilar.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/9SSuhezQmsM'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/9SSuhezQmsM'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">Criminal justice reporter Sukey Lewis’ demonstration of the double-locking mechanism on the handcuffs that were generally used around the prisoners’ ankles, and how a ‘black box’ device works\u003c/i>. (Sukey Lewis and Maha Sanad/KQED)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That was especially surprising to Steele because the men were wearing “black boxes” over their restraints — tamper-resistant hard plastic shells that cover the cuffs’ keyhole and, when applied properly, are nearly impossible to escape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele also stumbled across an unusual incident while looking at archived surveillance footage: It showed Taylor loose in the B8 common room a week before the Aguilar murder, running up the stairs to retrieve something from beneath Green’s cell door. As Steele watched the video, he waited for officers to sound the alarm or enter the unit, but they didn’t. He notes in his book that this apparent “practice-run” wasn’t reported or documented.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In June, Taylor, who’d already pleaded guilty to the murder, sent a letter to the warden making a stunning claim: Officers had played a role in the killing. Steele was assigned to follow up. In a recording of that interview, which was leaked to KQED, Taylor told Steele that B8 officers had agreed not to fully lock his and Anthony Rodriguez’s cuffs, allowing the men to circumvent the tamper-proof black boxes, and to instruct the control booth officer not to use deadly force. In Taylor’s telling, officers facilitated the attack on Aguilar because he had assaulted one of their own.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/tar6yJvCMpM'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/tar6yJvCMpM'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>Sgt. Kevin Steele interviewed Cody Taylor on July 3, 2020, about his allegations that officers enabled the murder of Luis Giovanny Aguilar. This video was edited from CDCR footage that was leaked to KQED. (Annie Fruit/KQED)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Anthony Rodriguez did not agree to speak to Steele, Green did. In a recorded interview that was leaked to KQED, Green echoed Taylor’s allegations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[Aguilar] would be alive today if it wasn’t for the assistance and\u003cbr>\nthe help of your staff,” Green told Steele.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>CDCR stated that it is “working with outside law enforcement agencies on this case” and could not comment. In court filings, attorneys for CDCR staff members have denied allegations that officers were involved in the killing. An FBI agent said in a phone call last year that they were investigating the case, but a spokesperson declined to officially confirm or deny the agency’s involvement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele shared Taylor and Green’s allegations with New Folsom’s warden, Jeff Lynch, with the chief deputy warden, and with his own supervisor, according to correspondence that was leaked to KQED and obtained through public records requests. Steele also sent the videos of his interviews and suggested giving Taylor and Green polygraph tests. The warden thanked Steele and told him New Folsom’s internal affairs lieutenant, Brandon Strohmaier, “will be chatting with you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At some point, prison administrators forwarded these allegations to CDCR’s Office of Internal Affairs in Sacramento, and to the FBI, which looks into allegations of civil rights abuses by law enforcement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But months passed, and Steele saw few signs that anyone had picked up the threads of his investigation. No one else came to interview Taylor or Green, and it appears no one followed up on Steele’s suggestion to polygraph them, according to documents, interviews with the men themselves and confidential sources familiar with the investigation. Early on, a handful of officers who were on duty the day of the murder were reassigned to the mailroom, but they weren’t suspended or banned from the facility (a way to limit officers’ access to the prison while they’re under criminal suspicion).\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017599\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017599\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/214_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/214_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/214_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/214_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/214_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/214_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/214_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/214_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Keys and handcuffs hang from the belt of a correctional officer in the Short Term Restricted Housing unit at California State Prison, Sacramento, also known as New Folsom prison, on April 13, 2023. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>CDCR’s Office of Internal Affairs often moves slowly, but emails obtained by KQED show this case was uniquely delayed, and a special agent was not assigned until a year after the murder, according to a report by the inspector general of prisons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, Steele started to feel the blowback for digging into the case. In his book, he describes being excluded from conversations in the ISU, and how, in the solitary unit where Taylor and Green were being held, officers who’d formerly been helpful began to display “agitation and unrest.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Perhaps most disturbing to Steele was that Green’s and Taylor’s allegations, which he’d passed up the chain of command in confidence, began circulating among prisoners — a sign, he thought, that his fellow officers were trying to undermine his work and endanger Taylor and Green.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There is a leak coming from someone,” Steele wrote in a follow-up email to the warden. This time, Lynch’s response was even more laconic: “Thank u.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Superhero\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>While on leave, Valentino Rodriguez had been working for his dad at the family pool business, writing bids for installation and repair. Even though he was still a correctional officer on paper, he was trying to leave the world of the prison behind. But the long-term effects of his years at New Folsom persisted. He wrestled with mounting depression and anxiety. He sought help from a therapist, but had trouble sharing his struggles with those closest to him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One afternoon that summer, Steele called. Rodriguez was at his dad’s house for a barbecue, and his father remembers that he disappeared for a couple of hours. He came back saying Steele had uncovered evidence that officers had a hand in the Aguilar murder, and that Steele had reported it up the chain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re starting to treat him like they treated me,” Rodriguez Sr. remembers his son telling him. “He’s scared.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele had also been encouraging Rodriguez to report the misconduct he’d witnessed, according to Mimy. But Rodriguez was nervous about what would happen to him and his family if he came forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mimy said her fiancé became increasingly fearful and reluctant to leave the house even to walk their dogs. He placed obstacles next to the front door so he could hear anyone trying to get in. He slept with his gun.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Is everything okay?” Mimy remembers asking him. “Who are you nervous about coming? What is going on?” Rodriguez never said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mimy tried to distract him with planning their upcoming wedding. She felt if they could just get through this year, they’d be able to put New Folsom behind them and start a family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But a few weeks before the ceremony, Rodriguez started a casual text conversation with Strohmaier, the ISU’s internal affairs lieutenant, about his upcoming marriage and other personal matters. Then Rodriguez let loose with a series of long texts describing his misery in the squad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That team is broken,” he wrote. “There is shit they do, say, or don’t do that could cause everyone from the Warden down to get the boot.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017958\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017958\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/230_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/230_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/230_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/230_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/230_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/230_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/230_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/230_KQED_NewFolsomPrisonSacramento_04132023-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Jeff Lynch, warden at New Folsom prison, during a press tour on April 13, 2023. He is set to retire December 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It’s not clear why Rodriguez chose this moment to share his grievances with the person who fielded internal complaints at New Folsom, but Strohmaier eventually forwarded the messages to the warden, who asked Rodriguez to come talk to him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Twelve days after his wedding, Rodriguez walked back through the gates of New Folsom to expose the brotherhood of officers he’d once protected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Warden Jeff Lynch would later testify that in this meeting, Rodriguez told him the ISU was a “dysfunctional environment” that had driven him from the job and ruined his health. He also warned Lynch that he’d seen ISU officers — the institution’s police — breaking the law by planting drugs and weapons to get overtime. Lynch testified that he’d listened intently, and then asked him to write up his allegations in a formal memo. Rodriguez said he’d think about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mimy said that when her new husband came home, he looked like a weight had been lifted. “He felt confident that the warden was going to help,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017597\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12017597\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/super-hero-800x1067.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"1067\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/super-hero-800x1067.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/super-hero-160x213.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/super-hero.jpg 931w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Photograph of final messages between Rodriguez and Steele just hours before Rodriguez’s death. Rodriguez did not seek medical treatment for the health issue he describes, so it is unclear what exactly happened. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Valentino Rodriguez Sr.)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The following week, while Lynch was still waiting for Rodriguez’s memo, he ordered a search of the ISU for the contraband Rodriguez had mentioned. According to Lynch’s testimony, the search didn’t turn up anything concerning. But it did have an effect — now, the whole team knew someone had talked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele texted Rodriguez the next day to show his support: “I appreciate, admire and respect you!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I just hope that i am not mentioned at all to anyone,”\u003cbr>\nRodriguez texted back. “It took a lot out of me to re-live the truth…So much pain and fear.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Dude you are my superhero,” Steele responded. “Stay strong! I got you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Rodriguez was already spiraling. That evening, while Mimy was at dinner with friends, Rodriguez texted her to say he’d heard from two people at New Folsom who knew about his meeting with the warden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Which means it’s out now that i told on the team,” he wrote. “Tomorrow they want me to write a memo and i don’t know what ima do.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Mimy got home an hour later, she saw a light coming from the guest bathroom. There she found her husband of 19 days slumped against the wall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s his job,” she told a responding police officer. “This is all because of his job.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The coroner’s report notes that drug paraphernalia was next to Rodriguez’s body and classifies his death as an accident. The report also describes the scene — a wedding photo of Rodriguez and Mimy on the mantle and a stack of gifts in the corner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele found out about Rodriguez’s death through social media reports.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In his book, Steele compares Rodriguez to the New Testament figure Timothy, who was beaten to death by a pagan mob after speaking out against them. “In many ways,” he wrote, “young Valentino, like Timothy, would remain courageous and committed to the truth all the way till the end.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017596\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017596\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-30-BL-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-30-BL-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-30-BL-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-30-BL-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-30-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-30-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-30-BL-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-30-BL-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An altar made by Mimy Rodriguez for her late husband, Officer Valentino Rodriguez, sits on a shelf at her home in Sacramento on Nov. 6, 2023. Rodriguez loved ketchup and wore Giorgio Armani cologne. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Flight and fight\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The memorial mass was held under a large oak tree at the Catholic grammar school in West Sacramento. Valentino Rodriguez Sr., weighed down by grief, noticed a trim man with piercing blue eyes making his way forward through the receiving line. While he’d heard a lot about Steele, this was the first time they’d met in person. As Rodriguez Sr. remembers, Steele grabbed his shoulders and said, “If you need me for anything, I can help you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back at the prison that day, Steele taped pictures of Rodriguez up in the window of his office. He wanted the officers who’d harassed his friend to know he held them responsible, Steele later told Rodriguez’s father. The squad, in turn, shunned Steele and went so far as to file a complaint against him, which didn’t go anywhere, according to public records.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Warden Lynch sent out an email forbidding anyone in the ISU from speaking to the Rodriguez family. Even though the move could have been preventive — in the event of an investigation into the harassment of Rodriguez, CDCR policy would not allow staff to talk about the case — Steele saw the directive as an attempt at self-protection. Adding to Steele’s disappointment, the warden never called Rodriguez’s family to offer condolences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So when Rodriguez Sr., heartbroken and craving answers, reached out to Steele with texts and photos of his son as a boy, Steele wrote back. The two men began texting and talking on the phone nearly every day — discovering their shared Christian faith, their love for antique cars and their sorrow over the loss of Rodriguez.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rodriguez Sr. drew a direct line between his son’s overdose and New Folsom. In one of their telephone conversations, he even asked Steele if someone at the prison could have provided the fentanyl that killed him (KQED found no evidence to substantiate his concern). Steele urged Rodriguez Sr. to file a complaint with CDCR’s Office of Internal Affairs and gave him a contact at the FBI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017595\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017595\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231130-OnOurWatch-25-BL-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231130-OnOurWatch-25-BL-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231130-OnOurWatch-25-BL-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231130-OnOurWatch-25-BL-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231130-OnOurWatch-25-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231130-OnOurWatch-25-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231130-OnOurWatch-25-BL-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231130-OnOurWatch-25-BL-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Valentino Rodriguez Sr. stands in a warehouse at his West Sacramento pool business on Nov. 30, 2023, where his son Valentino Rodriguez Jr. worked while on leave from New Folsom before his untimely death. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While Steele told Rodriguez Sr. he could trust those agencies to do the right thing, his book reveals that he had his doubts. Years earlier, the Ronnie Price case had taught him that officers were capable of conspiracy and silence. The apathy he perceived in the wake of Aguilar’s homicide now appeared to be evidence of a dark and willful blindness. And the warden’s apparent focus on damage control rather than human suffering following a young officer’s death broke something inside him. Steele wondered if there were any limits to the corruption he felt closing in around him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lili said that, though he tried to hide it from her, her husband was afraid. “He literally would open up the door and look around the corner,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele wasn’t the first whistleblower to feel like he had a target on his back. Over the years, officers who have reported misconduct have found “rat” written on their windshield, received threatening phone calls, been left with no backup in dangerous situations and even been followed home at night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele had come forward internally, but he’d also been in touch with the FBI, according to text messages given to KQED. He’d passed along evidence he’d gathered regarding Aguilar’s murder and shared his suspicions that officers were somehow culpable. Steele believed that without him, any potential federal investigation would have few witnesses. Steele told Rodriguez Sr. that he had no idea how far CDCR would go to keep him quiet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so, Steele crafted an exit strategy. In January, he and Lili packed up their belongings and moved across the country to Miller County, Missouri, where Steele had spent time in the Air Force. His plan was to run through his vacation and sick days and then retire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017594\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017594\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/100605-F-1108H-322-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"2238\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/100605-F-1108H-322-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/100605-F-1108H-322-800x700.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/100605-F-1108H-322-1020x892.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/100605-F-1108H-322-160x140.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/100605-F-1108H-322-1536x1343.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/100605-F-1108H-322-2048x1791.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/100605-F-1108H-322-1920x1679.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Kevin Steele served in the US Air Force Reserve for 21 years before retiring as a master sergeant in April 2016. He deployed twice to Iraq and was commended for his service. \u003ccite>(US Air Force)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But Steele couldn’t resist firing off a couple of parting shots at New Folsom’s warden and CDCR — two incendiary memos alleging in detail the mistreatment of incarcerated people and officers’ role in the Aguilar murder. He included Rodriguez’s claims about ISU misconduct, and questioned Warden Lynch’s actions as a leader.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Addressing Lynch directly, he wrote: “You should consider the very likely possibility that during YOUR superintendence of [New Folsom], more staff will be charged for criminal activity than any other institution within the state.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A month after Steele had left the state, a notice, which was leaked to KQED, was posted at the front gate of New Folsom: Sgt. Kevin Steele was banned from prison grounds. While he had no plans to return, it stung.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He was crushed,” Lili remembers. Steele told her, “I would have died for that department.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele had trouble adapting to his new life in the Ozarks. He applied for a couple jobs and interviewed well, but didn’t get them. Lili said he suspected someone at the prison had somehow interfered, though as far as she knew, prison officials still thought they were in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele still woke up before 4 a.m., but now he had nowhere to go.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘My Thoughts’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>On March 15, 2021, Steele sent Rodriguez Sr. a link to \u003ca href=\"https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertsamaha/the-prison-guard-who-couldnt-escape-prison\">a Buzzfeed article about a correctional officer at High Desert State Prison in Northern California who had reported misconduct\u003c/a>, only to find his colleagues turning on him. The officer was found dead by apparent suicide in 2011. Among some notes with messages for his family was one that read, “I told the truth.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The actual number of suicides among CDCR’s 30,000 officers is unknown; the agency said it doesn’t track those deaths out of respect for employees’ privacy. But KQED has been able to confirm that at least 30 officers who had worked for CDCR died by suicide from 2020 through 2023. Steele dealt with this firsthand; he’d counseled an officer who was struggling with thoughts of suicide and even interrupted a prison employee trying to asphyxiate themselves in a garage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017640\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017640\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_0848.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1920\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_0848.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_0848-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_0848-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_0848-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_0848-1536x1152.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_0848-2048x1536.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/IMG_0848-1920x1440.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">These badges represent the 30 CDCR correctional officers who took their own lives from 2020 through 2023. \u003ccite>(Anna Vignet/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In response to \u003ca href=\"https://gspp.berkeley.edu/research-and-impact/publications/officer-health-and-wellness-results-from-the-california-correctional-office\">a 2017 UC Berkeley survey of CDCR officers\u003c/a>, 1 in 10 said they had suicidal thoughts. That’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/ss/ss7101a1.htm\">more than twice the national average reported by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention\u003c/a>. A CDCR spokesperson wrote in an email that the department is “committed to promoting the mental health and wellbeing” of its employees, who have access to a number of interventions and services including chaplains and therapists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steele did speak to a chaplain, but, like a lot of officers, he was wary of mental health professionals, fearing that if he sought help the institution would use it against him. Instead, Lili said, her husband “self-medicated” with alcohol to get to sleep at night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In April of 2021, Steele got some news that buoyed his spirits. Daniel Garland, one of the officers who’d mistreated Rodriguez, had been banned from the institution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, it seemed to Rodriguez Sr. and Steele that their efforts to hold someone accountable for Rodriguez’s death were finally starting to bear fruit. They expected to see more repercussions for everyone who’d harassed Rodriguez, or known about it and done nothing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017593\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12017593\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-KEVIN-STEELE-03-KQED-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-KEVIN-STEELE-03-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-KEVIN-STEELE-03-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-KEVIN-STEELE-03-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-KEVIN-STEELE-03-KQED.jpg 1507w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The red storage shed where Sgt. Kevin Steele was found deceased on August 20, 2021. Photo obtained from the Sheriff’s Dept. in Miller County, Mo., via public records request.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Justice is beginning to simmer!” Steele texted Rodriguez Sr.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But four months later, on Aug. 20, 2021, Steele called up Rodriguez Sr. in a rage. He’d just received a call from CDCR’s Office of Internal Affairs to schedule an interview about the Aguilar murder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It had been 20 months since Aguilar was killed, over a year since Steele passed on evidence that officers might be involved, and eight months since Steele sent his explosive memo to the warden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rodriguez Sr. remembers Steele venting: “Why are they just wrapping this up? All of a sudden they’re in a hurry?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Less than an hour later, a home security camera captured Steele walking out of his open garage. The footage, obtained by KQED through a public records request, shows him crossing the driveway toward his shed at 5:23 p.m. dressed in an orange T-shirt and shorts. He’s holding one end of a blue nylon rope in his hand. The other end of the rope is looped around his neck. He reaches the shed door and passes out of view.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017592\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 1246px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017592\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/MyThoughtsRedactedScreenshot.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1246\" height=\"742\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/MyThoughtsRedactedScreenshot.jpg 1246w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/MyThoughtsRedactedScreenshot-800x476.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/MyThoughtsRedactedScreenshot-1020x607.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/MyThoughtsRedactedScreenshot-160x95.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1246px) 100vw, 1246px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A screenshot of the note found on Steele’s computer. KQED redacted the names of the CDCR officials in Steele’s note to protect their privacy. Obtained from the Sheriff’s Dept. in Miller County, Mo. via public records request.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The next day, Lili found a document on the home computer titled “My Thoughts.” It read, in part:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Lili is my angel, my light and my survivor.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In an apparent reference to the time of day that Jesus died on the cross, he wrote, “I know what time it is … it is the 9th hour and no one is here.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“CDCR killed me, I told the truth and shielded the truth… These barbarians killed Valentino and I.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The letter included a list of names of CDCR officials he held responsible for his and his friend’s deaths. Under the list were the note’s final three words: “Cowards and Bandits!”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Aftermath\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Shortly after Steele’s death, CDCR internal affairs agents finally conducted their first interviews with the officers who had been implicated in the death of Luis Giovanny Aguilar — nearly two years after his murder. They never interviewed Green, the shot caller, or the men who stabbed Aguilar, according to a confidential source familiar with the investigation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Office of the Inspector General (OIG), a state-level prison watchdog, rated the department’s handling of the case “poor.” In a report, the OIG faulted the agency for “unnecessary” delays and poor interview techniques “that failed to elicit the details of each officers’ involvement and knowledge of events and failed to ask follow-up questions.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The report shows that CDCR ultimately sustained allegations that one officer failed to respond to alarms the day Aguilar was stabbed. The officer in the control booth was disciplined for not having his Mini-14 rifle on him during the attack. Each got a temporary 5% pay cut. A third officer was given the heaviest punishment, a temporary 10% pay cut, for recording the murder footage on his phone and sharing it with a colleague.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017591\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12017591\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-LUIS-GIOVANNY-AGUILAR-01-KQED-800x800.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"800\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-LUIS-GIOVANNY-AGUILAR-01-KQED-800x800.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-LUIS-GIOVANNY-AGUILAR-01-KQED-160x160.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241113-OOW-LUIS-GIOVANNY-AGUILAR-01-KQED.jpg 898w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The last time that Luis Giovanny Aguilar saw his mother, Ma Rosario Zaragoza, in Tijuana, Mexico, 2018. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Aguilar family)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>An ongoing lawsuit filed by Aguilar’s mother against Warden Lynch and the officers in the B8 unit alleges staff either conspired to kill her son, or at the very least failed to protect him. In court filings, lawyers for CDCR have denied that prison staff were involved in the homicide. The FBI declined to comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Garland, along with an officer who’d used the N-word and other derogatory language in the office, was fired. Two more ISU team members were given lengthy pay cuts for calling Rodriguez half-patch and failing to report misconduct; they both work at different prisons now. (All four officers have submitted appeals to state court, which are pending.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>New Folsom remains a violent place; four incarcerated people were killed at the prison this year, three at the hands of other prisoners, and one after being restrained by officers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lynch is retiring this month. Jason Schultz, who worked at New Folsom from 2008 through 2020, was named acting warden in November.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since Steele’s suicide in 2021, CDCR has made some important changes; last year, Governor Gavin Newsom introduced the “California Model” of prison management, which borrows its ethos of reintegration and emotional well-being from the Norwegian approach to incarceration. Officers at certain prisons, including New Folsom, now wear body cameras. And CDCR put in place a new process for reviewing grievances against staff, which the department says will “ensure complaints are properly, fairly and thoroughly reviewed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yet, despite months of KQED’s attempts to get answers, no one from the agency would address the underlying question raised by the deaths of Steele and Rodriguez: How successful can any reforms be if officers remain afraid to report misconduct, and if the few who come forward risk being marginalized and ignored?\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘Uncontestable’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When a person in state custody takes their own life, an independent panel reviews the circumstances and makes a determination about how it could have been prevented. But there is no such accounting of the circumstances surrounding officer suicides. In a 2023 interview, Stephen Walker, who advocates for mental health resources on behalf of the correctional officers’ union, told KQED that if these deaths were happening in any other occupation, “there would be a mass public outcry calling for an investigation into what is happening and what is at the root of this many people losing their lives.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12017590\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12017590\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-35-BL-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-35-BL-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-35-BL-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-35-BL-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-35-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-35-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-35-BL-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/231106-OnOurWatch-35-BL-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mimy Rodriguez holds a framed wedding photo of herself and her late husband, Officer Valentino Rodriguez, at her home in Sacramento, Calif., on Nov. 6, 2023. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After Rodriguez and Steele died, the state insurance fund sent each of their widows instructions on how to receive survivor benefits. There were two options: The simpler path was to sign a form stating that the men’s deaths were unrelated to their jobs. Neither woman could bring herself to sign.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The alternative was to argue that their husbands had died as a direct result of working in the prison. Initially, those claims were denied, and Lili and Mimy had to go through the painful process of documenting their husbands’ decline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A doctor who reviewed Rodriguez’s medical records on behalf of the state found that his drug use was related to depression, anxiety and panic attacks stemming from his job at New Folsom. “This claim appears to be uncontestable,” he wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mimy Rodriguez cried when she received a letter from the state saying that her husband’s death “was the result of his employment” at New Folsom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lili Steele’s claim was also granted: A workers’ compensation review of Steele’s writings and an interview with Lili found that psychological strain from his job at the prison contributed to his suicide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The claim, Lili said, was her way of saying, “I know what you people did to him.”\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>If you or someone you know is struggling with suicidal thoughts, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is a collaboration between KQED, the \u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">California Reporting Project\u003c/a> and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californianewsroom\">California Newsroom\u003c/a>, and was made possible in part by support from \u003ca href=\"https://www.calendow.org\">The California Endowment\u003c/a>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Lead editor: \u003ca href=\"https://www.markbetancourt.com/\">Mark Betancourt\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Data analysis: Amanda Glazer, PhD Candidate at UC Berkeley Statistics; Jeremy Sanchez Rue, Associate Professor of Practice at UC Berkeley Journalism.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Additional research by students at \u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">Berkeley Journalism’s Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/a>: Julietta Bisharyan, Laura Fitzgerald, William Jenkins, Cayla Mihalovich, Armon Owlia, Kathleen Quinn, Elizabeth Santos, Vera Watt and Junyao Yang. Additional support from UC Berkeley Journalism’s David Barstow.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sukey and Julie have some news and updates about Valentino Rodriguez Sr., Mimy Rodriguez and some of the key players at New Folsom prison. We also share a recent conversation with an attorney who has been involved in the legal fight for disability rights in California state prisons for decades. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7898353184\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mental health resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are currently in crisis, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAMHSA National Help Line\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://988lifeline.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/help\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) Helpline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.hhs.gov/programs/prevention-and-wellness/mental-health-substance-abuse/index.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">US Health and Human Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://warmline.org/warmdir.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warmline Directory\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism was a key partner in making Season 2 of On Our Watch.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The records obtained for this project are part of the\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> California Reporting Project\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a coalition of news organizations in California. If you have tips or feedback about this series please reach out to us at \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"mailto:onourwatch@kqed.org\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">onourwatch@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, everyone. We’re back this week with a special bonus episode of On Our Watch. If you’re a new listener to the podcast, welcome. But this episode won’t make a lot of sense. So I suggest you go back to episode one of the season and start from the beginning of what became a really epic journey to trace the footsteps of two whistleblowers at New Folsom Prison. For those of you who’ve been following along, we have some news to share. And we got our hands on some really interesting new tapes where you can hear from some of the key figures at New Folsom who never agreed to speak to us for the podcast. Later in the episode, we’re also going to talk to a lawyer who’s played a big part in state reforms, including helping get body cameras into some California prisons. My co-reporter for this series, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie Small:\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, is with me today so we can talk about what all these developments mean. Hey, Julie. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, Sukey. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First of all, we want to share that we’ve been writing an article about Sergeant Kevin Steele and Correctional Officer Valentino Rodriguez, which you can check out on KQED.org, or click the link in the show notes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are some really interesting tidbits in there which will be totally new to even listeners of the podcast. A video of Steele and some of the evidence that we relied on for our reporting. And it’s a summation of the findings that we came to as a result of two years of investigation in a format where you can really review what those findings are and see what the implications are and really understand the journey of Sergeant Kevin Steele and Valentino Rodriguez Jr. How they affected each other and what that led them to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And the other big news that we have to share is about the warden, Jeff Lynch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. CDCR announced Warden Jeff Lynch is retiring this month. This is the guy who Steele blamed for failure of leadership at New Folsom Prison and who Val Senior blamed for not protecting his son. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, prison officials wouldn’t comment on Lynch’s retirement, but it is interesting timing I think. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We now know who’s replacing Lynch. Well, what do you think about the incoming warden? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. So CDCr just named this new acting warden. And this is a man named Jason Shultz. He used to work at New Folsom from 2008 to 2020. He’s also spent time at the California health care facility in Stockton and California State Prison Solano. He’s a pretty well known actor in New Folsom, and he was, in fact, the head of the facility where the Ronnie Price incident happened, the captain of that facility. So for listeners, if you’ll remember from episode four, Ronnie Price is the man who told Steel that he had been tripped by officers and his face was smashed and pretty severely. And then he died the next day of a pulmonary embolism. It was a really big deal there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, that case eventually resulted in criminal conviction of three officers who tried to cover up the excessive force. And you know, that this guy was, you know, involved with that unit. That’s that’s very interesting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it is. It is really interesting. And I don’t know much more, you know, about, you know, why he got this position or if he’ll end up being the permanent warden there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. And we did check in with some of our sources who said that this guy is you know, he follows the rules. He’s worked hard. But, you know, he’s a company man. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So anyway, that’s kind of what we know so far about the acting warden. Now, I know, Julie, you talked to Val Senior recently as well. How does Val Senior feel about the warden’s retirement? And also just how is he doing in general? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, in general, like right after the podcast came out, Val Senior, he felt relief for the first time since his son’s death. You know, he got a lot of he felt like he was finally doing something. He got a lot of sympathetic emails and text messages, but he feels that CDCR is not holding the right people accountable. There were some disciplinary actions taken against some of the lower level people involved, other officers. But the warden, he is getting to retire and go on with his life. Meanwhile, Val Senior, you know, continues to suffer. This is not over for him. It will never be over. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. And what about what about Valentino’s widow, Mimy? You know, how’s she doing? Have you talked to her recently? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have talked to her recently. You know, she reached out to me, actually, and, you know, wanted to see what, if anything, had happened since the podcast came out. She is, you know, picking up her life, putting it back together. She has gone back to school, which before she couldn’t concentrate well enough to stay in in her courses. She’s finishing up an undergraduate degree. She she has made a decision, though, that she was going to go into corrections and now she is not because of everything that she and her husband, Valentino, went through and her loss of Valentino. She may still do something in the law, but she seems to becoming interested in making the criminal justice system work better. But it’s really a struggle for her still. You know, she’s still in shock. You know, she’s said that this was not what her life was supposed to be. You know, she should never have ended up here. This was not the way it was supposed to go. She married the love of her life, and days later, he was dead. And it’s hard. It’s hard. How do you move on from that? And. And she doesn’t really even have people to talk to about it because how do you talk to somebody about such a profound loss and with so many questions surrounding it still? So she holds a lot of it in I think. What about some of the incarcerated people that you interviewed? Have you checked in with any of them? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I’ve been in touch with a number of people. You know, Joel Uribe, who listeners will remember from episode four of the podcast, who was, you know, injured in the use of force incident with officers. And he is looking at a potential release date next year and getting ready for that. He’s really excited about that. And one of the things that he’s doing is getting the tattoos removed from his face. Um if listeners remember, this was something that his mom was like a really hard ass with him about and was like, I won’t, you know, see your face. I won’t look at your face while you have those tattoos on it. So I was in touch with Joel. He’s getting those tattoos, you know, starting the process of that. And he said he’s going to do a video call with me as well when he gets them removed so I can see the his new face that he hopes to present to the outside world. Yeah. You know, he is also a little fearful, I think, about something out of prison, like it just is difficult. He’s been kind of in and out of prison for most of his life, and so you get so conditioned to experience there. So I think he’s really excited for that, hoping to get out even sooner. And also, you know, has some trepidation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Well, I mean, that’s totally understandable that he would have trepidation. What have you been hearing about what’s been going on in New Folsom? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, it was another deadly year there. There were four people that were killed by homicide. CDCR only released very thin information about these incidents. But we do know that one of them was the result of a use of force. This man died after being restrained by officers. And, you know, overall, preliminary numbers that have been posted show that the rates of use of force at New Folsom remain the highest in the state. So sounds like much the same. Now, CDCR says, you know, they they declined to speak to us. We asked them again for an interview with the head of CDCR, the secretary with the outgoing warden, with the incoming warden. They declined all of those requests, but they did send us an email in which they, again, really doubled down on their statement that they’re really trying to reform things and that they don’t tolerate a code of silence and that they are really committed to officer accountability. They did not once again respond to any questions about use of force. And I asked them to at least explain why they wouldn’t talk about use of force. And they also wouldn’t talk about why they wouldn’t talk about use of force. So that continues to be a frustration just in terms of getting information about an issue that’s really, you know, I think high public interest and importance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s the latest that we’ve heard, you know, from CDCR officially. But thanks to our lawsuit that’s forced them to produce more documents and recordings, we did recently get something really fascinating. They sent us the interrogation tapes from that internal affairs investigation into Valentino’s harassment. Listeners will remember he really struggled in the investigative services unit because his fellow officers could be quite cruel to him. And he finally told the warden about all this misconduct he said he’d witnessed just six days before his death. So after he died, the Office of Internal Affairs talked to those officers and to higher ups at New Folsom, ostensibly to get to the bottom of things. And that’s what these tapes are from. And it was really interesting to hear from some of the players who never agreed to speak to us for the podcast. We’re going to start with someone we’ve been interested in talking to for a while. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, Gina Jones. I called her up and she told me to never call her at that number again. I reached her, but she was like, I have nothing to say to you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So can you remind listeners, you know, who is Gina Jones and what was her role? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, Jones was the second in command at New Folsom, just under Warden Lynch. During our reporting, it was hard to pin down her role exactly in everything that transpired. For listeners, you’ll remember Jones is the person who convinced Valentino to go out on stress leave instead of resigning completely from the department. They had this consequential meeting in which, according to Mimy, Valentino, broke down to her and divulged all the harassment he’d been experiencing, as well as misconduct that he’d witnessed from his colleagues. Here she is talking about that meeting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gena Jones:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gena Jones:\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> J-O-N-E-S, Chief Deputy Warden, CSP Sacramento. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just a note, you’ll hear some redactions that CDCR made in these tapes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When you met with Officer Rodriguez, was anybody else in that meeting? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gena Jones:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, it was just he and I. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you said it was in ISU? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gena Jones:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And and you described in that meeting you talked about [REDACTED]. And and and that the issues that he was having, as you mentioned, that he had some issues with with crime scenes and autopsies, you know, issues related to the work in ISU, that was that the source of his problem? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gena Jones:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. I mean, he never said anything other than just cumulatively it was getting to be too much and he couldn’t handle the stress and he wasn’t sleeping. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Jones really makes it sound like the only thing bothering Valentino was this kind of persistent violence and brutality at New Folsom, which is really different from what we heard from Mimy, who said that Valentino came home really in despair and told her that he’d broken down in front of the chief deputy warden about everything. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, And here’s what Jones says about, you know, the harassment and whether or not she knew anything about that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Was there anything said during the meeting about Officer Rodriguez being treated inappropriately by other ISU staff? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gena Jones:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely not. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So just based on questions I’ve asked you to this point, is there anything that I haven’t asked you about this matter that you think is important for me to know? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gena Jones:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um there’s been a lot of scuttle going on. Obviously, the situation is pretty taxing. I apologize. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you need to take a break that’s fine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gena Jones:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Can I? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Yes. Let’s do that. Time is 1513. I’m going to pause the recording and we’re going to take a quick break. Okay. We’re back on the record. Time is 1514. Just for the record, Chief Jones, did I ask you any questions about the case while we were on break? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gena Jones:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No you did not. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. You were getting ready to say something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gena Jones:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, there’s there’s a lot a lot going on and it’s very unfortunate on what happened to this young man. At no time was I ever made aware of any allegation of staff misconduct, inappropriate behavior for this kid. I had a great working relationship with this young man. I was very fond of him and his work. He had a very good work ethic. When I talked to him that day, you know, he was very concerned, you know, he because he enjoyed his job. So he felt like he was letting himself down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we’ve just heard Jones kind of make these pretty strong statements, you know, about what she knew and she didn’t know. And also, you know, about her personal care for Valentino. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it’s strange. She is so emphatic about not knowing anything about the harassment or anything else. And she sounds like she has some emotion about Valentino’s death. But if Valentino told her about the harassment he was getting, as he had said he did as his supervisor, she was required to investigate any allegations of misconduct. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And I think there are a few other things that are kind of concerning about this exchange. You know, the Office of Internal Affairs investigator doesn’t even ask her about the allegations regarding planted drugs or weapons. And it’s potentially, you know, potentially they did ask her about it and it’s redacted. But if even so, if they did ask her about it, they really moved away from it very quickly because the entire interview is quite short. And we do know from testimony in front of the state personnel board that Jones was there for that search that happened that happened the day before Valentino died. So it just kind of raises questions about why they don’t ask the questions that I think we would ask or that they should ask if they were really kind of concerned and probing for where the failures were along the way. You know, next up, let’s get into some of the tape about this other guy who had a key role in the story, who didn’t agree to talk to us. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brandon Strohmaier:\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, this guy was the internal affairs sergeant, then he moved up to Lieutenant. I now know that he is working actually for the Office of Internal Affairs at headquarters. So he has since promoted. And he had a had a really kind of key role in how this whole thing played out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. Yeah. He is another person I actually spoke to on the phone, but who refused to talk to me. He said something like, “Why would I talk to you?” Anyway, this was the guy Valentino finally vented to in the text messages, pages of them that are really painful and make these huge allegations, including that everyone from the warden on down could get fired based on what Valentino knew and what he had witnessed. The same series of texts triggered that final conversation with the warden. So here’s what Strohmaier says about that conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, uh, back in approximately September of 2020. Did he describe some mistreatment that that he he alleged by other ISU staff? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brandon Strohmaier:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He did.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs: \u003c/b>Can you just describe what he told you in that text? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brandon Strohmaier:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, the text was extremely long. I’m sure you’ve seen it. I read about half of it. He was talking about how he was pretty much being picked on [redacted]. Any little, called names. He was his anxiety was so high that he was throwing up in the restroom for you know being in the bathroom for hours at a time. Vomiting. He didn’t like going to work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie It’s interesting because Strohmaier sounds of two minds in this interview. Remember, he’s the one who took action and passed Valentino’s allegations on to the warden. But in this interview, he doesn’t really want to own that. Like he claims he only read half of Valentino’s texts. And there’s something else like he definitely fudges some things in this interview. For example, he says he forwarded these texts to the warden right away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brandon Strohmaier:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Asked if I could call and set up a meeting with the warden to um, because he want to let him know what’s going on in the unit. When I got the phone, I immediately called Jeff Lynch. He said, “No problem I’ll send uh \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gena Jones:\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> who’s the chief deputy to come in for me tomorrow and have him come up here at nine o’clock in the morning.” And that’s what happened. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And we know that is not accurate. Like there was at least another three weeks before he sent these to the warden. And then the meeting happened the next day. So I don’t know if he was just sitting on it or considering whether he wanted to forward it or not, but he did end up forwarding it to the warden. But in this interview, he kind of misrepresents the timing on those things. And then, you know, that fateful meeting happens. Here’s what Strohmaier says about the meeting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brandon Strohmaier:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mr. Lynch said, “Well, depending on what you tell me, there’s no guarantee no one’s going to get in trouble.” We sat down for about an hour. He went over every little thing that he pretty much said in the text. Reiterated to Mr. Lynch while he took notes, every allegation Rodriguez made, Lynch would write it down and say, “was there a supervisor present?” And he would pretty much say yes [redacted]. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You said you observed Warden Lynch taking notes. Do you know what happened to those notes? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brandon Strohmaier:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do not know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was another point where my jaw kind of dropped when I was first listening to these tapes because Lynch explicitly told OIA that he can’t remember if he wrote notes. Internal Affairs asks him to go take a look for them. He claims he can’t find them. So just the fact that Strohmaier kind of has this very clear memory that he tells Internal Affairs about, of Lynch taking down these meticulous notes and the fact that those were never located just seems like a really big red flag. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And at the end of the interview, despite everything that transpired, he sings the praises of the Investigative Services Unit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anything else that’s come to mind about the things I should know about what’s what, you know, related to the topics that we discussed? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brandon Strohmaier:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Not really, I really I mean, I looked at it as, I mean, I think that was the best ISU unit in the state, you know? And we’ve been told, I mean, there’s all your agents here that uh I get it. There might have been a conflict and maybe locker room gossip talk, you know, who knows? And it’s true. They never did it in front of me they’re not stupid enough to do it in front of their supervisor. But, I don’t know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s kind of incredible, right? Okay. Last but not least at all, we also did get the Office of Internal Affairs interview with the warden with Lynch, in which he answers questions about that final meeting that he had with Valentino shortly before he died. And I’m not going to play that much of it because it’s honestly like he doesn’t say very much that’s new and it just didn’t have that much value. But I’m going to play you a little bit here just so you can kind of hear the tone of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So you mentioned earlier that he had he had talked about making statements have been made that would violate the EEO policy. And you’ve given me a couple examples that would clearly violate that. Were there any others that he brought up that you recall? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeff Lynch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The awkward silence is me thinking so I apologize. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No that’s okay. That’s okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeff Lynch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m sure there were. It’s just not coming right to me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. All right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. He gave a pretty sanitized version of Valentino’s harassment allegations. And then he describes how he asked Valentino to write a memo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeff Lynch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I asked for a written statement. He said he wasn’t willing to provide it, that he didn’t want anybody to get in trouble. I explained to him kind of how we operate, how we work. And I encouraged him to give me a written document, particularly from the perspective of the EEO side of things. He was resistant to do it, but said he would at least consider it. But of course, I never saw it. We waited for it for the, you know, through the weekend and then hopefully to see it maybe the first part of the week. And then obviously the whole thing fell apart after that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, most striking is what the investigators don’t push him on. You know, they don’t appear to really question Lynch at all about the choices that he made. You know, his choice not to turn to OIA with those serious allegations of drugs and weapons. You know, the decision to do this search, which exposed Valentino as a whistleblower. They don’t really push him on anything, you know, even about the notes that he clearly, at least should have taken about that meeting. You know, the investigator has this tone that just sounds really deferential. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think they’re very, very careful with wardens. You know, he’s worked his way up through the ranks. He is the face of CDCR. To do anything that would discredit him. It sort of undermines the whole public image of CDCR. And wardens are very powerful. They really control what goes on inside there. And they also control what information gets out about what happened. He or she decides what gets investigated. And also, even though they’ve changed this process a little bit at CDCR to bring in some more outside influence in looking at allegations, it still comes back to the warden at the end of the day. Even if an outside even outside office, a statewide office says, “yeah, we think there’s a problem here, here, warden, do something about this misconduct.” The warden can say, “I agree and I’m going to discipline them,” or, “I don’t agree,” or, “I do agree, but I’m not going to discipline them.” Still has so much power. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and it seems like they’re given a lot of power. They’re given so much trust, you know, by the agency. They’re these kind of official representatives of it. So if they are found to be doing wrong or if they are found to, you know, be betraying the public’s trust in any way, it really kind of undermines the entire agency it feels like in a different way than just, you know, if if a line officer does and then is fired or something like that. You were mentioning, you know, some of the changes that CDCR has made. And we’re going to get into that in the next section. We’re going to talk with somebody who’s been involved in prison reform in California for decades, been part of a really important effort. And we’re going to bring you that conversation after the break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This whole series and our focus on New Folsom in particular began because we noticed this anomaly in the investigative records that we were getting from CDCR. There were so many more of these really serious use of force incidents at this one prison. And one of our first calls to try and understand what these numbers meant was to this law firm, Rosen Bien Galvin & Grunfeld, which has been involved in a class action lawsuit against CDCR since 1994 — 30 years. A result of that have been a number of really widespread reforms ordered by the court that have affected all people in prison, even though the lawsuit is specifically focused on people with disabilities. When we called them up, they said, “We don’t have as many clients at New Folsom, but we have heard about some problems at that prison. And have you guys heard about the two whistleblowers that died there?” That conversation was more than two years and a podcast ago. And so and I wanted to sit down with an attorney with that law firm again to hear what they have been up to and to get their reaction to the series. Here’s that conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello. Thanks so much for coming in, can you please introduce yourself? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Penny Godbold\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and I’m an attorney at Rosen Bien Galvin and Grunfeld were a civil rights law firm. And I represent people in prison with disabilities under the Armstrong class action case. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And can you describe in your own words the Armstrong class action case? Like, what is the nature of that litigation that your firm brought against CDCR? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a long standing class action that’s about making prisons physically accessible to people with disabilities and making sure that the people who are incarcerated in the state of California, for example, if they need a wheelchair, that they have a wheelchair, if they need hearing aids, that they have hearing aids. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you give me an example of why that would be important and how people’s needs have not been met? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Years ago, the example that came to mind was a case of a person with a disability who was being made to crawl up a flight of stairs in order to have access to the what is now the Board of Parole hearings, in order to be able to argue his case that he should be released on parole. So the state of California has come a long way towards providing basic disability accommodations to people in prison. But there’s still more work to be done. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there anything that you heard in the podcast that jumped out at you in terms of recognizing similar themes to what you’ve heard from your clients? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. One of the aspects of the podcast that has really resonated with me is the difficulty people face in coming forward to report problems in prison. There’s a reluctance to believe incarcerated people. And there was a person who was deaf and use sign language to communicate, failed to follow a verbal order that he didn’t hear that was ordered by staff. And that also resulted in a use of force incident. And he complained and there was no accountability action. So we took these reports, declarations to the court and said this is what’s happening in California prisons and something needs to be done to protect the disability rights. And there’s a lot of people out there who have experienced staff misconduct who were willing to eventually talk to us, who were not willing to come forward and report it to CDCR or report it to a federal court, because there’s a very real risk of retaliation. When somebody files a staff complaint in CDCR, one of the first things that happens is that the staff member is notified that a complaint has been filed against them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you talk a little bit about the kind of spiral of retaliation that can happen for somebody who makes a complaint against a correctional officer? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What we hear from our clients is if you file a staff complaint about the use of force incident that you were involved in, then you get sucked into a cycle of retaliation that starts with receiving a disciplinary write up for something that happened during the use of force incident itself. Typically, assault on a police officer during the course of the officer using force against you. And that starts a chain reaction of negative consequences for an incarcerated person. You’re moved to segregation. You lose your property, including letters and and photos from family members that mean so much to people. Your hearing aids might get lost in the transfer. And that’s just the common example that we hear people talk about. But there’s a lot of other less obvious forms of retaliation that people share with us. Something like an officer failing to release them from their cell to to receive medication — that can be retaliatory. And the officer might be able to say that’s not retaliation. I just wasn’t able to release them from their cell at that moment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What it took to get people to come forward, to tell those stories was tremendous. I would say it it took years to bring the kind of litigation that prompted the most recent orders by the court. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You mentioned the most recent orders. Let’s get into that. This started from events happening in a particular prison, but it’s gotten bigger than that. Can you walk us through what the impetus of that was? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We initially started hearing about reports of staff misconduct at one particular prison. And what we learned over time through talking to other incarcerated people is that that phenomenon of disability related staff misconduct and staff misconduct generally, it’s of course, not limited to one prison. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know from my reporting that that particular prison you’re referencing is Richard J. Donovan in San Diego. Can you just tell me a little bit more about the types of incidents that were happening there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was an extreme amount of force being used and force that was resulting in broken bones and serious bodily injury. And in fact, the Department of Corrections convened a strike team and the strike team went down there and found that there were very serious problems and filed a report and called for changes at the institution. Those changes were not implemented and that was part of the impetus for the court ordering changes. But CDCR’s own findings were that there was a level of violence being reported at that prison. And in particular, people with disabilities and other vulnerabilities were being impacted, and something needed to be done. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But wait a minute, CDCR came to that decision itself, right, that there were these serious problems? So why weren’t those changes implemented? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a good question. I think at the end of the day, CDCR headquarters would be responsible for receiving a report like that and implementing changes. And I can’t answer the question about why it wasn’t done. That is the question. But, in terms of the the court orders themselves right now, they extend to six different CDCR institutions that house a large number of people with disabilities. The most significant remedy has been the implementation of body worn cameras and fixed cameras at these six prisons. And almost immediately, we started hearing reports from our class members at the institutions where the cameras were implemented that unreported, serious use of force incidents went way down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what’s the latest of what’s going on with the lawsuit? And is there a particular area you’re focusing on now? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the challenges that we’re seeing after implementation of the court orders right now is that there are body worn cameras. There is video evidence at the six prisons. And yet there are a lot of reasons why the video evidence is not preserved or produced for investigations. Video evidence right now under policy is preserved for 90 days. Somebody who’s involved in a staff misconduct incident might want to wait until they’re moved off of a prison yard, particular yard with an officer who they had this problem with. And that might occur after 90 days. So if they wait until they are located somewhere else and then they filed their complaint, the video is lost. So one of the the primary areas where there is a need for significant improvement is extending the preservation time for footage for all footage. Also just attempting to extend the body worn camera requirements statewide. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is that something that CDCR has indicated any willingness to do to spread to all the institutions? I mean they have been sort of, “No, we’re not going to do this. Yes, we will do it. Okay. We’ll do it at a few prisons.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to give CDCR credit for extending camera coverage at four additional prisons that they were not court ordered to have cameras at. That’s significant. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Including New Folsom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, there were a lot of staff complaints coming out of New Folsom. They so far have been unwilling to extend body worn cameras beyond those four additional prisons. So that’s something that we continue to push on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the things we found in the podcast was, of course, that the incarcerated person will have this write up on them. And even if what the incident is investigated and even if the officers are found to have engaged in misconduct, the write up of the incarcerated person doesn’t disappear. They continue to pay for the thing that didn’t happen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, that’s one area that we have been working really hard to bring to the court’s attention and to the fact that in the same way that the staff misconduct investigations are not complete reports of what happened, neither are these disciplinary charges that people are found guilty of, and yet it remains in their file and they continue to suffer the consequences of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. You know when I step back from this… been reporting on California prisons for almost 20 years and have seen a lot of court orders issued and a lot of evidentiary hearings, and, to prove that court orders are not being followed and subsequent court orders, etc., etc. It can be like the court comes up with a prescription and there’s a new rule, but the spirit of the rule is not followed. I hear this a lot that that CDCR will implement a change, but it’s more like they’re checking off a box. “Yeah, we did this.” But not actually addressing the fundamental underlying problem, which is often a lack of respect and a complete imbalance of power because we are talking about prison and just always assuming the worst of the incarcerated population. Do you have any hope that that will change? The way that prisons are run will actually shift? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am hopeful, but it’s more than can be accomplished through a court ordering additional training. Staff can go sit in a one hour training once a year and learn that they are required to accommodate people with disabilities. But that has to be put into practice throughout the prisons and supervisors need to model how that’s done. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, the governor introduced the California model last year. Can you define it? Do you think it’s going to make a difference? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have to say that I do have hope for change. I have learned the art of having hope from my incarcerated clients, because if they can get out of bed in the morning while they’re, you know, locked in a prison cell and facing 20 years in that situation, if they can have hope, then I can have hope. I do see some shortcomings in the way that California has conceived of the California model, which is largely based on taking some principles from these Scandinavian prison systems and implementing them in California. There are significant differences between the systems. The Scandinavian systems hire differently than California does. Just the the role of the officer is perceived of as something totally different in those systems. So I think there’s a lot more work to be done to make that a reality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much for sharing your time with us and your expertise. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, Thanks so much for your work, Penny. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for having me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve been listening to a bonus episode of On Our Watch from KQED. I’m \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sukey Lewis\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie Small\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is my co-reporter. Chris Egusa produced this episode. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is our Head of Podcasts. Original Music by Ramtin Arablouei, including our theme song. Additional music from APM Music and Audio Network. Funding for On Our Watch is provided in part by Arnold Ventures and the California Endowment. Thank you to Katie Sprenger, our Podcast Operations Manager, our Managing Editor of News and Enterprise, Otis R. Taylor Jr., Ethan Toven-Lindsey, our Vice President of News and KQED Chief Content Officer, Holly Kernan. And thanks to all of you for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sukey and Julie have some news and updates about Valentino Rodriguez Sr., Mimy Rodriguez and some of the key players at New Folsom prison. We also share a recent conversation with an attorney who has been involved in the legal fight for disability rights in California state prisons for decades. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7898353184\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mental health resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are currently in crisis, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAMHSA National Help Line\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://988lifeline.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/help\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) Helpline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.hhs.gov/programs/prevention-and-wellness/mental-health-substance-abuse/index.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">US Health and Human Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://warmline.org/warmdir.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warmline Directory\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism was a key partner in making Season 2 of On Our Watch.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The records obtained for this project are part of the\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> California Reporting Project\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a coalition of news organizations in California. If you have tips or feedback about this series please reach out to us at \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"mailto:onourwatch@kqed.org\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">onourwatch@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, everyone. We’re back this week with a special bonus episode of On Our Watch. If you’re a new listener to the podcast, welcome. But this episode won’t make a lot of sense. So I suggest you go back to episode one of the season and start from the beginning of what became a really epic journey to trace the footsteps of two whistleblowers at New Folsom Prison. For those of you who’ve been following along, we have some news to share. And we got our hands on some really interesting new tapes where you can hear from some of the key figures at New Folsom who never agreed to speak to us for the podcast. Later in the episode, we’re also going to talk to a lawyer who’s played a big part in state reforms, including helping get body cameras into some California prisons. My co-reporter for this series, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie Small:\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, is with me today so we can talk about what all these developments mean. Hey, Julie. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, Sukey. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First of all, we want to share that we’ve been writing an article about Sergeant Kevin Steele and Correctional Officer Valentino Rodriguez, which you can check out on KQED.org, or click the link in the show notes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are some really interesting tidbits in there which will be totally new to even listeners of the podcast. A video of Steele and some of the evidence that we relied on for our reporting. And it’s a summation of the findings that we came to as a result of two years of investigation in a format where you can really review what those findings are and see what the implications are and really understand the journey of Sergeant Kevin Steele and Valentino Rodriguez Jr. How they affected each other and what that led them to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And the other big news that we have to share is about the warden, Jeff Lynch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. CDCR announced Warden Jeff Lynch is retiring this month. This is the guy who Steele blamed for failure of leadership at New Folsom Prison and who Val Senior blamed for not protecting his son. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, prison officials wouldn’t comment on Lynch’s retirement, but it is interesting timing I think. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We now know who’s replacing Lynch. Well, what do you think about the incoming warden? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. So CDCr just named this new acting warden. And this is a man named Jason Shultz. He used to work at New Folsom from 2008 to 2020. He’s also spent time at the California health care facility in Stockton and California State Prison Solano. He’s a pretty well known actor in New Folsom, and he was, in fact, the head of the facility where the Ronnie Price incident happened, the captain of that facility. So for listeners, if you’ll remember from episode four, Ronnie Price is the man who told Steel that he had been tripped by officers and his face was smashed and pretty severely. And then he died the next day of a pulmonary embolism. It was a really big deal there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, that case eventually resulted in criminal conviction of three officers who tried to cover up the excessive force. And you know, that this guy was, you know, involved with that unit. That’s that’s very interesting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it is. It is really interesting. And I don’t know much more, you know, about, you know, why he got this position or if he’ll end up being the permanent warden there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. And we did check in with some of our sources who said that this guy is you know, he follows the rules. He’s worked hard. But, you know, he’s a company man. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So anyway, that’s kind of what we know so far about the acting warden. Now, I know, Julie, you talked to Val Senior recently as well. How does Val Senior feel about the warden’s retirement? And also just how is he doing in general? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, in general, like right after the podcast came out, Val Senior, he felt relief for the first time since his son’s death. You know, he got a lot of he felt like he was finally doing something. He got a lot of sympathetic emails and text messages, but he feels that CDCR is not holding the right people accountable. There were some disciplinary actions taken against some of the lower level people involved, other officers. But the warden, he is getting to retire and go on with his life. Meanwhile, Val Senior, you know, continues to suffer. This is not over for him. It will never be over. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. And what about what about Valentino’s widow, Mimy? You know, how’s she doing? Have you talked to her recently? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have talked to her recently. You know, she reached out to me, actually, and, you know, wanted to see what, if anything, had happened since the podcast came out. She is, you know, picking up her life, putting it back together. She has gone back to school, which before she couldn’t concentrate well enough to stay in in her courses. She’s finishing up an undergraduate degree. She she has made a decision, though, that she was going to go into corrections and now she is not because of everything that she and her husband, Valentino, went through and her loss of Valentino. She may still do something in the law, but she seems to becoming interested in making the criminal justice system work better. But it’s really a struggle for her still. You know, she’s still in shock. You know, she’s said that this was not what her life was supposed to be. You know, she should never have ended up here. This was not the way it was supposed to go. She married the love of her life, and days later, he was dead. And it’s hard. It’s hard. How do you move on from that? And. And she doesn’t really even have people to talk to about it because how do you talk to somebody about such a profound loss and with so many questions surrounding it still? So she holds a lot of it in I think. What about some of the incarcerated people that you interviewed? Have you checked in with any of them? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I’ve been in touch with a number of people. You know, Joel Uribe, who listeners will remember from episode four of the podcast, who was, you know, injured in the use of force incident with officers. And he is looking at a potential release date next year and getting ready for that. He’s really excited about that. And one of the things that he’s doing is getting the tattoos removed from his face. Um if listeners remember, this was something that his mom was like a really hard ass with him about and was like, I won’t, you know, see your face. I won’t look at your face while you have those tattoos on it. So I was in touch with Joel. He’s getting those tattoos, you know, starting the process of that. And he said he’s going to do a video call with me as well when he gets them removed so I can see the his new face that he hopes to present to the outside world. Yeah. You know, he is also a little fearful, I think, about something out of prison, like it just is difficult. He’s been kind of in and out of prison for most of his life, and so you get so conditioned to experience there. So I think he’s really excited for that, hoping to get out even sooner. And also, you know, has some trepidation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Well, I mean, that’s totally understandable that he would have trepidation. What have you been hearing about what’s been going on in New Folsom? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, it was another deadly year there. There were four people that were killed by homicide. CDCR only released very thin information about these incidents. But we do know that one of them was the result of a use of force. This man died after being restrained by officers. And, you know, overall, preliminary numbers that have been posted show that the rates of use of force at New Folsom remain the highest in the state. So sounds like much the same. Now, CDCR says, you know, they they declined to speak to us. We asked them again for an interview with the head of CDCR, the secretary with the outgoing warden, with the incoming warden. They declined all of those requests, but they did send us an email in which they, again, really doubled down on their statement that they’re really trying to reform things and that they don’t tolerate a code of silence and that they are really committed to officer accountability. They did not once again respond to any questions about use of force. And I asked them to at least explain why they wouldn’t talk about use of force. And they also wouldn’t talk about why they wouldn’t talk about use of force. So that continues to be a frustration just in terms of getting information about an issue that’s really, you know, I think high public interest and importance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s the latest that we’ve heard, you know, from CDCR officially. But thanks to our lawsuit that’s forced them to produce more documents and recordings, we did recently get something really fascinating. They sent us the interrogation tapes from that internal affairs investigation into Valentino’s harassment. Listeners will remember he really struggled in the investigative services unit because his fellow officers could be quite cruel to him. And he finally told the warden about all this misconduct he said he’d witnessed just six days before his death. So after he died, the Office of Internal Affairs talked to those officers and to higher ups at New Folsom, ostensibly to get to the bottom of things. And that’s what these tapes are from. And it was really interesting to hear from some of the players who never agreed to speak to us for the podcast. We’re going to start with someone we’ve been interested in talking to for a while. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, Gina Jones. I called her up and she told me to never call her at that number again. I reached her, but she was like, I have nothing to say to you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So can you remind listeners, you know, who is Gina Jones and what was her role? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, Jones was the second in command at New Folsom, just under Warden Lynch. During our reporting, it was hard to pin down her role exactly in everything that transpired. For listeners, you’ll remember Jones is the person who convinced Valentino to go out on stress leave instead of resigning completely from the department. They had this consequential meeting in which, according to Mimy, Valentino, broke down to her and divulged all the harassment he’d been experiencing, as well as misconduct that he’d witnessed from his colleagues. Here she is talking about that meeting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gena Jones:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gena Jones:\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> J-O-N-E-S, Chief Deputy Warden, CSP Sacramento. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just a note, you’ll hear some redactions that CDCR made in these tapes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When you met with Officer Rodriguez, was anybody else in that meeting? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gena Jones:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, it was just he and I. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you said it was in ISU? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gena Jones:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And and you described in that meeting you talked about [REDACTED]. And and and that the issues that he was having, as you mentioned, that he had some issues with with crime scenes and autopsies, you know, issues related to the work in ISU, that was that the source of his problem? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gena Jones:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. I mean, he never said anything other than just cumulatively it was getting to be too much and he couldn’t handle the stress and he wasn’t sleeping. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Jones really makes it sound like the only thing bothering Valentino was this kind of persistent violence and brutality at New Folsom, which is really different from what we heard from Mimy, who said that Valentino came home really in despair and told her that he’d broken down in front of the chief deputy warden about everything. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, And here’s what Jones says about, you know, the harassment and whether or not she knew anything about that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Was there anything said during the meeting about Officer Rodriguez being treated inappropriately by other ISU staff? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gena Jones:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely not. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So just based on questions I’ve asked you to this point, is there anything that I haven’t asked you about this matter that you think is important for me to know? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gena Jones:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um there’s been a lot of scuttle going on. Obviously, the situation is pretty taxing. I apologize. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you need to take a break that’s fine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gena Jones:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Can I? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Yes. Let’s do that. Time is 1513. I’m going to pause the recording and we’re going to take a quick break. Okay. We’re back on the record. Time is 1514. Just for the record, Chief Jones, did I ask you any questions about the case while we were on break? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gena Jones:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No you did not. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. You were getting ready to say something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gena Jones:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, there’s there’s a lot a lot going on and it’s very unfortunate on what happened to this young man. At no time was I ever made aware of any allegation of staff misconduct, inappropriate behavior for this kid. I had a great working relationship with this young man. I was very fond of him and his work. He had a very good work ethic. When I talked to him that day, you know, he was very concerned, you know, he because he enjoyed his job. So he felt like he was letting himself down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we’ve just heard Jones kind of make these pretty strong statements, you know, about what she knew and she didn’t know. And also, you know, about her personal care for Valentino. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it’s strange. She is so emphatic about not knowing anything about the harassment or anything else. And she sounds like she has some emotion about Valentino’s death. But if Valentino told her about the harassment he was getting, as he had said he did as his supervisor, she was required to investigate any allegations of misconduct. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And I think there are a few other things that are kind of concerning about this exchange. You know, the Office of Internal Affairs investigator doesn’t even ask her about the allegations regarding planted drugs or weapons. And it’s potentially, you know, potentially they did ask her about it and it’s redacted. But if even so, if they did ask her about it, they really moved away from it very quickly because the entire interview is quite short. And we do know from testimony in front of the state personnel board that Jones was there for that search that happened that happened the day before Valentino died. So it just kind of raises questions about why they don’t ask the questions that I think we would ask or that they should ask if they were really kind of concerned and probing for where the failures were along the way. You know, next up, let’s get into some of the tape about this other guy who had a key role in the story, who didn’t agree to talk to us. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brandon Strohmaier:\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, this guy was the internal affairs sergeant, then he moved up to Lieutenant. I now know that he is working actually for the Office of Internal Affairs at headquarters. So he has since promoted. And he had a had a really kind of key role in how this whole thing played out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. Yeah. He is another person I actually spoke to on the phone, but who refused to talk to me. He said something like, “Why would I talk to you?” Anyway, this was the guy Valentino finally vented to in the text messages, pages of them that are really painful and make these huge allegations, including that everyone from the warden on down could get fired based on what Valentino knew and what he had witnessed. The same series of texts triggered that final conversation with the warden. So here’s what Strohmaier says about that conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, uh, back in approximately September of 2020. Did he describe some mistreatment that that he he alleged by other ISU staff? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brandon Strohmaier:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He did.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs: \u003c/b>Can you just describe what he told you in that text? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brandon Strohmaier:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, the text was extremely long. I’m sure you’ve seen it. I read about half of it. He was talking about how he was pretty much being picked on [redacted]. Any little, called names. He was his anxiety was so high that he was throwing up in the restroom for you know being in the bathroom for hours at a time. Vomiting. He didn’t like going to work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie It’s interesting because Strohmaier sounds of two minds in this interview. Remember, he’s the one who took action and passed Valentino’s allegations on to the warden. But in this interview, he doesn’t really want to own that. Like he claims he only read half of Valentino’s texts. And there’s something else like he definitely fudges some things in this interview. For example, he says he forwarded these texts to the warden right away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brandon Strohmaier:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Asked if I could call and set up a meeting with the warden to um, because he want to let him know what’s going on in the unit. When I got the phone, I immediately called Jeff Lynch. He said, “No problem I’ll send uh \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gena Jones:\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> who’s the chief deputy to come in for me tomorrow and have him come up here at nine o’clock in the morning.” And that’s what happened. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And we know that is not accurate. Like there was at least another three weeks before he sent these to the warden. And then the meeting happened the next day. So I don’t know if he was just sitting on it or considering whether he wanted to forward it or not, but he did end up forwarding it to the warden. But in this interview, he kind of misrepresents the timing on those things. And then, you know, that fateful meeting happens. Here’s what Strohmaier says about the meeting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brandon Strohmaier:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mr. Lynch said, “Well, depending on what you tell me, there’s no guarantee no one’s going to get in trouble.” We sat down for about an hour. He went over every little thing that he pretty much said in the text. Reiterated to Mr. Lynch while he took notes, every allegation Rodriguez made, Lynch would write it down and say, “was there a supervisor present?” And he would pretty much say yes [redacted]. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You said you observed Warden Lynch taking notes. Do you know what happened to those notes? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brandon Strohmaier:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do not know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was another point where my jaw kind of dropped when I was first listening to these tapes because Lynch explicitly told OIA that he can’t remember if he wrote notes. Internal Affairs asks him to go take a look for them. He claims he can’t find them. So just the fact that Strohmaier kind of has this very clear memory that he tells Internal Affairs about, of Lynch taking down these meticulous notes and the fact that those were never located just seems like a really big red flag. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And at the end of the interview, despite everything that transpired, he sings the praises of the Investigative Services Unit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anything else that’s come to mind about the things I should know about what’s what, you know, related to the topics that we discussed? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brandon Strohmaier:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Not really, I really I mean, I looked at it as, I mean, I think that was the best ISU unit in the state, you know? And we’ve been told, I mean, there’s all your agents here that uh I get it. There might have been a conflict and maybe locker room gossip talk, you know, who knows? And it’s true. They never did it in front of me they’re not stupid enough to do it in front of their supervisor. But, I don’t know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s kind of incredible, right? Okay. Last but not least at all, we also did get the Office of Internal Affairs interview with the warden with Lynch, in which he answers questions about that final meeting that he had with Valentino shortly before he died. And I’m not going to play that much of it because it’s honestly like he doesn’t say very much that’s new and it just didn’t have that much value. But I’m going to play you a little bit here just so you can kind of hear the tone of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So you mentioned earlier that he had he had talked about making statements have been made that would violate the EEO policy. And you’ve given me a couple examples that would clearly violate that. Were there any others that he brought up that you recall? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeff Lynch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The awkward silence is me thinking so I apologize. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No that’s okay. That’s okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeff Lynch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m sure there were. It’s just not coming right to me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Special Agent Biggs:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. All right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. He gave a pretty sanitized version of Valentino’s harassment allegations. And then he describes how he asked Valentino to write a memo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeff Lynch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I asked for a written statement. He said he wasn’t willing to provide it, that he didn’t want anybody to get in trouble. I explained to him kind of how we operate, how we work. And I encouraged him to give me a written document, particularly from the perspective of the EEO side of things. He was resistant to do it, but said he would at least consider it. But of course, I never saw it. We waited for it for the, you know, through the weekend and then hopefully to see it maybe the first part of the week. And then obviously the whole thing fell apart after that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, most striking is what the investigators don’t push him on. You know, they don’t appear to really question Lynch at all about the choices that he made. You know, his choice not to turn to OIA with those serious allegations of drugs and weapons. You know, the decision to do this search, which exposed Valentino as a whistleblower. They don’t really push him on anything, you know, even about the notes that he clearly, at least should have taken about that meeting. You know, the investigator has this tone that just sounds really deferential. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think they’re very, very careful with wardens. You know, he’s worked his way up through the ranks. He is the face of CDCR. To do anything that would discredit him. It sort of undermines the whole public image of CDCR. And wardens are very powerful. They really control what goes on inside there. And they also control what information gets out about what happened. He or she decides what gets investigated. And also, even though they’ve changed this process a little bit at CDCR to bring in some more outside influence in looking at allegations, it still comes back to the warden at the end of the day. Even if an outside even outside office, a statewide office says, “yeah, we think there’s a problem here, here, warden, do something about this misconduct.” The warden can say, “I agree and I’m going to discipline them,” or, “I don’t agree,” or, “I do agree, but I’m not going to discipline them.” Still has so much power. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and it seems like they’re given a lot of power. They’re given so much trust, you know, by the agency. They’re these kind of official representatives of it. So if they are found to be doing wrong or if they are found to, you know, be betraying the public’s trust in any way, it really kind of undermines the entire agency it feels like in a different way than just, you know, if if a line officer does and then is fired or something like that. You were mentioning, you know, some of the changes that CDCR has made. And we’re going to get into that in the next section. We’re going to talk with somebody who’s been involved in prison reform in California for decades, been part of a really important effort. And we’re going to bring you that conversation after the break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This whole series and our focus on New Folsom in particular began because we noticed this anomaly in the investigative records that we were getting from CDCR. There were so many more of these really serious use of force incidents at this one prison. And one of our first calls to try and understand what these numbers meant was to this law firm, Rosen Bien Galvin & Grunfeld, which has been involved in a class action lawsuit against CDCR since 1994 — 30 years. A result of that have been a number of really widespread reforms ordered by the court that have affected all people in prison, even though the lawsuit is specifically focused on people with disabilities. When we called them up, they said, “We don’t have as many clients at New Folsom, but we have heard about some problems at that prison. And have you guys heard about the two whistleblowers that died there?” That conversation was more than two years and a podcast ago. And so and I wanted to sit down with an attorney with that law firm again to hear what they have been up to and to get their reaction to the series. Here’s that conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello. Thanks so much for coming in, can you please introduce yourself? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Penny Godbold\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and I’m an attorney at Rosen Bien Galvin and Grunfeld were a civil rights law firm. And I represent people in prison with disabilities under the Armstrong class action case. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And can you describe in your own words the Armstrong class action case? Like, what is the nature of that litigation that your firm brought against CDCR? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a long standing class action that’s about making prisons physically accessible to people with disabilities and making sure that the people who are incarcerated in the state of California, for example, if they need a wheelchair, that they have a wheelchair, if they need hearing aids, that they have hearing aids. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you give me an example of why that would be important and how people’s needs have not been met? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Years ago, the example that came to mind was a case of a person with a disability who was being made to crawl up a flight of stairs in order to have access to the what is now the Board of Parole hearings, in order to be able to argue his case that he should be released on parole. So the state of California has come a long way towards providing basic disability accommodations to people in prison. But there’s still more work to be done. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there anything that you heard in the podcast that jumped out at you in terms of recognizing similar themes to what you’ve heard from your clients? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. One of the aspects of the podcast that has really resonated with me is the difficulty people face in coming forward to report problems in prison. There’s a reluctance to believe incarcerated people. And there was a person who was deaf and use sign language to communicate, failed to follow a verbal order that he didn’t hear that was ordered by staff. And that also resulted in a use of force incident. And he complained and there was no accountability action. So we took these reports, declarations to the court and said this is what’s happening in California prisons and something needs to be done to protect the disability rights. And there’s a lot of people out there who have experienced staff misconduct who were willing to eventually talk to us, who were not willing to come forward and report it to CDCR or report it to a federal court, because there’s a very real risk of retaliation. When somebody files a staff complaint in CDCR, one of the first things that happens is that the staff member is notified that a complaint has been filed against them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you talk a little bit about the kind of spiral of retaliation that can happen for somebody who makes a complaint against a correctional officer? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What we hear from our clients is if you file a staff complaint about the use of force incident that you were involved in, then you get sucked into a cycle of retaliation that starts with receiving a disciplinary write up for something that happened during the use of force incident itself. Typically, assault on a police officer during the course of the officer using force against you. And that starts a chain reaction of negative consequences for an incarcerated person. You’re moved to segregation. You lose your property, including letters and and photos from family members that mean so much to people. Your hearing aids might get lost in the transfer. And that’s just the common example that we hear people talk about. But there’s a lot of other less obvious forms of retaliation that people share with us. Something like an officer failing to release them from their cell to to receive medication — that can be retaliatory. And the officer might be able to say that’s not retaliation. I just wasn’t able to release them from their cell at that moment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What it took to get people to come forward, to tell those stories was tremendous. I would say it it took years to bring the kind of litigation that prompted the most recent orders by the court. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You mentioned the most recent orders. Let’s get into that. This started from events happening in a particular prison, but it’s gotten bigger than that. Can you walk us through what the impetus of that was? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We initially started hearing about reports of staff misconduct at one particular prison. And what we learned over time through talking to other incarcerated people is that that phenomenon of disability related staff misconduct and staff misconduct generally, it’s of course, not limited to one prison. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know from my reporting that that particular prison you’re referencing is Richard J. Donovan in San Diego. Can you just tell me a little bit more about the types of incidents that were happening there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was an extreme amount of force being used and force that was resulting in broken bones and serious bodily injury. And in fact, the Department of Corrections convened a strike team and the strike team went down there and found that there were very serious problems and filed a report and called for changes at the institution. Those changes were not implemented and that was part of the impetus for the court ordering changes. But CDCR’s own findings were that there was a level of violence being reported at that prison. And in particular, people with disabilities and other vulnerabilities were being impacted, and something needed to be done. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But wait a minute, CDCR came to that decision itself, right, that there were these serious problems? So why weren’t those changes implemented? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a good question. I think at the end of the day, CDCR headquarters would be responsible for receiving a report like that and implementing changes. And I can’t answer the question about why it wasn’t done. That is the question. But, in terms of the the court orders themselves right now, they extend to six different CDCR institutions that house a large number of people with disabilities. The most significant remedy has been the implementation of body worn cameras and fixed cameras at these six prisons. And almost immediately, we started hearing reports from our class members at the institutions where the cameras were implemented that unreported, serious use of force incidents went way down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what’s the latest of what’s going on with the lawsuit? And is there a particular area you’re focusing on now? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the challenges that we’re seeing after implementation of the court orders right now is that there are body worn cameras. There is video evidence at the six prisons. And yet there are a lot of reasons why the video evidence is not preserved or produced for investigations. Video evidence right now under policy is preserved for 90 days. Somebody who’s involved in a staff misconduct incident might want to wait until they’re moved off of a prison yard, particular yard with an officer who they had this problem with. And that might occur after 90 days. So if they wait until they are located somewhere else and then they filed their complaint, the video is lost. So one of the the primary areas where there is a need for significant improvement is extending the preservation time for footage for all footage. Also just attempting to extend the body worn camera requirements statewide. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is that something that CDCR has indicated any willingness to do to spread to all the institutions? I mean they have been sort of, “No, we’re not going to do this. Yes, we will do it. Okay. We’ll do it at a few prisons.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to give CDCR credit for extending camera coverage at four additional prisons that they were not court ordered to have cameras at. That’s significant. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Including New Folsom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, there were a lot of staff complaints coming out of New Folsom. They so far have been unwilling to extend body worn cameras beyond those four additional prisons. So that’s something that we continue to push on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the things we found in the podcast was, of course, that the incarcerated person will have this write up on them. And even if what the incident is investigated and even if the officers are found to have engaged in misconduct, the write up of the incarcerated person doesn’t disappear. They continue to pay for the thing that didn’t happen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, that’s one area that we have been working really hard to bring to the court’s attention and to the fact that in the same way that the staff misconduct investigations are not complete reports of what happened, neither are these disciplinary charges that people are found guilty of, and yet it remains in their file and they continue to suffer the consequences of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. You know when I step back from this… been reporting on California prisons for almost 20 years and have seen a lot of court orders issued and a lot of evidentiary hearings, and, to prove that court orders are not being followed and subsequent court orders, etc., etc. It can be like the court comes up with a prescription and there’s a new rule, but the spirit of the rule is not followed. I hear this a lot that that CDCR will implement a change, but it’s more like they’re checking off a box. “Yeah, we did this.” But not actually addressing the fundamental underlying problem, which is often a lack of respect and a complete imbalance of power because we are talking about prison and just always assuming the worst of the incarcerated population. Do you have any hope that that will change? The way that prisons are run will actually shift? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am hopeful, but it’s more than can be accomplished through a court ordering additional training. Staff can go sit in a one hour training once a year and learn that they are required to accommodate people with disabilities. But that has to be put into practice throughout the prisons and supervisors need to model how that’s done. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, the governor introduced the California model last year. Can you define it? Do you think it’s going to make a difference? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have to say that I do have hope for change. I have learned the art of having hope from my incarcerated clients, because if they can get out of bed in the morning while they’re, you know, locked in a prison cell and facing 20 years in that situation, if they can have hope, then I can have hope. I do see some shortcomings in the way that California has conceived of the California model, which is largely based on taking some principles from these Scandinavian prison systems and implementing them in California. There are significant differences between the systems. The Scandinavian systems hire differently than California does. Just the the role of the officer is perceived of as something totally different in those systems. So I think there’s a lot more work to be done to make that a reality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much for sharing your time with us and your expertise. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, Thanks so much for your work, Penny. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Penny Godbold:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for having me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve been listening to a bonus episode of On Our Watch from KQED. I’m \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sukey Lewis\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie Small\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is my co-reporter. Chris Egusa produced this episode. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is our Head of Podcasts. Original Music by Ramtin Arablouei, including our theme song. Additional music from APM Music and Audio Network. Funding for On Our Watch is provided in part by Arnold Ventures and the California Endowment. Thank you to Katie Sprenger, our Podcast Operations Manager, our Managing Editor of News and Enterprise, Otis R. Taylor Jr., Ethan Toven-Lindsey, our Vice President of News and KQED Chief Content Officer, Holly Kernan. And thanks to all of you for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Get a behind-the-scenes peek at the reporting for On Our Watch: New Folsom as Ayesha Rascoe, host of NPR’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/series/1213771050/the-sunday-story-from-up-first\">The Sunday Story from Up First\u003c/a>, speaks with Sukey about the season and the wider context of this kind of journalism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC6251136710\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mental health resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are currently in crisis, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAMHSA National Help Line\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://988lifeline.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/help\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) Helpline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.hhs.gov/programs/prevention-and-wellness/mental-health-substance-abuse/index.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">US Health and Human Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://warmline.org/warmdir.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warmline Directory\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Whistleblower resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://www.thelamplighterproject.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Lamplighter Project\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://thesignalsnetwork.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Signals Network\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://empowr.us/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">EMPOWR\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblowersofamerica.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whistleblowers of America\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://whistleblower.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Government Accountability Project\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblowers.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">National Whistleblower Center\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://whistlebloweraid.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whistleblower Aid\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism was a key partner in making Season 2 of On Our Watch.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The records obtained for this project are part of the\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> California Reporting Project\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a coalition of news organizations in California. If you have tips or feedback about this series please reach out to us at \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"mailto:onourwatch@kqed.org\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">onourwatch@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi, it’s Sukey. This will be our last bonus episode for a while, but we’ll definitely update you if there are any new developments in our reporting. And from time to time, we’ll also share some other podcasts we think you might be interested in checking out. Today I wanted to share a conversation I had on a different show, the Up First podcast from NPR, where you’ll get to hear more of the backstory behind On Our Watch. Here’s that conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Ayesha Rascoe, and this is a Sunday story. A warning before we get started, this episode contains mentions of suicide. In recent years, high profile cases of police brutality across the US have brought increased attention and scrutiny to police misconduct and use of force incidents. When something happens, the police often say, “We’re investigating.” But what’s really being done, or not done, to ensure police are held accountable for their actions? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2021, a team of reporters from KQED partnered with NPR to take a closer look at the process for how police policed themselves. They made a podcast called On Our Watch, and it was focused on select cases of police misconduct in California. Today, I’m speaking with criminal justice reporter Sukey Lewis, the host of On Our Watch. She and her team have continued to uncover thousands of previously sealed Internal Affairs law enforcement records as part of the multi-newsroom California Reporting Project. Sukey tells me about the reporting behind the new season of her show. In season two, the show digs into recent incidents at one of the most dangerous prisons in California. Our conversation about the story she found within the closed world of correctional facilities, and what it takes to investigate what happens inside of a prison… After the break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back with The Sunday Story. Here with criminal justice reporter Sukey Lewis, host of the KQED podcast On Our Watch. Sukey, welcome to the program. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks so much for having me on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we get into the reporting for the season of On Our Watch, talk to me about the California Reporting Project. You co-founded that in 2018, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. So in 2018, the state here in California passed a new law that would open up internal police records, you know, for the first time, basically, we’d get to see inside this black box of police internal affairs. And that law was called the Right to Know Act. And it affected certain categories of internal records, including deadly use of force incidents, serious use of force incidents, which means, you know, when somebody gets really badly injured by police, and dishonesty and sexual assault or sexual misconduct on duty by police officers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This law gave you access to the paper trail that opened the window to these police departments and how they run, because there’s always a paper trail, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. And for years here in California, it was very secretive. You couldn’t see that paper trail. So some states, like Florida, have had open records laws for a long time. But here in California, because of the power of the police unions, you just could never know. You could never know if somebody was disciplined or fired or like what had happened. And so we teamed up with a group of different news organizations across the state to file blanket public records requests at all 700 law enforcement agencies across the state to start understanding how these systems work. What happens when serious police shooting happens? What happens when you file a complaint against a police officer for excessive force? And they say we’re going to investigate. How does a deadly use of force investigation unfold? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So. So season one of On Our Watch came directly out of this reporting. You examined select misconduct cases and and kind of the shadowy world of police discipline. So what were some of the big lessons or takeaways from your reporting on season one? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think one of our biggest findings was that those promises that we have been made in the public that, “we’re investigating, people will be held accountable,” are really based on this false assumption that its purpose is to provide accountability and that that’s actually not its purpose. It’s a risk management tool. Basically like H.R. Right? If you’re an employee and you make a complaint to H.R., their goal isn’t necessarily to hold the person you made a complaint about to justice. Their goal is to protect the company from liability. That’s what we really found, especially in a secretive system with internal affairs in the world of policing, it was much more about protecting the police department and the city from liability. So sometimes that would mean accountability. Sometimes that would mean an officer gets fired or disciplined because that’s what would protect the city. But that was not actually the goal or the purpose of this institution or the system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this season, you focused on correctional facilities, prisons. How did you decide on that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We decided to turn to the world of correctional facilities in California, because the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation is actually the largest employer of peace officers in the state. And while we had gotten some insight into how police departments were functioning and how these internal affairs systems were working in police departments, the world of corrections is even more of a closed system. I mean, it’s literally behind walls, right? And so getting behind those walls, even if it was just through the paper trail, as you say, seemed like a really important thing to do. And to understand how these prisons, how these small cities work, and how, accountability works in a, in a system where often the people who are making complaints are incarcerated and have even less power than a civilian on the street. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How did you land on the prison that you focused on? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we ended up focusing on a prison known as New Folsom or California State Prison Sacramento. And that’s because as we are analyzing data and records from prisons all across the state, there was this pattern that kind of jumped off the page at us. And it for this category of serious use of force incidents — that’s when an officer uses deadly force or seriously injures somebody — there were three times as many of those type of incidents at this one prison than any other prison in the state. And this just kind of raised our alarm bells. We were like, you know, “What is going on at this prison? You know, why is that such an anomaly in the data? Let’s look closer.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We took our findings to some attorneys who work in this space. And these attorneys, they were also surprised. But they said this prison has been, you know, kind of known, known problem. They said, did you know about the whistleblowers that died there? There are these two whistleblowers that died there in the last year. And those two whistleblowers names were correctional officer Valentino Rodriguez and Sergeant Kevin Steele. Officer Valentino Rodriguez. His death was found to be accidental overdose due to fentanyl. And the second officer, Sergeant Kevin Steele, who died about ten months later, died by suicide. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So within the space of a year, two whistleblowers at this prison had died. I mean, I think that’s going to stop anybody in they tracks. What did you think when you first heard that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, your first thought goes to, is there foul play? Is someone retaliating against these whistleblowers? And so we started doing, you know, what we as investigative journalists do. My colleague Julie Small reached out to the family of Valentino Rodriguez. We both started filing public records requests for the death investigations of each of these men to try and understand what had happened to them, and if there was anything in those death investigations that pointed back to the prison or to to anything else that we needed to uncover. Ultimately, we did not find any evidence of foul play in either case, but we learned a lot more about what they had each been uncovering before they died. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Coming up after the break, Sukey and her team follow the trail of evidence left by correctional officer Valentino Rodriguez and Sergeant Kevin Steele after their deaths. We’re back with a Sunday story. Sukey, once you heard about the two whistleblowers who’d worked at the same prison, New Folsom, you started retracing the events before their deaths. How did you go about that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So one person who ended up being a really key source for us was the father of correctional officer Valentino Rodriguez, who has the same name. So his name is Valentino Rodriguez, Senior. And he ended up being really central to our story. My colleague Julie reached out to him and at first he was really, you know, cautious. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just I just want this to work both ways. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I need to know what you’re doing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s all I’ve ever asked. I- nobody even knows we’re having these meetings other than my wife. Right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When we met him, Val Senior was really clearly, you know, still in the midst of the grieving process. And I think part of that process for him was trying to understand, you know, what led to his son’s passing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just can’t I just can’t turn my back on my son, you know what I mean? And, I owe that to him, and I’m going to go as far as I can. And. And then in the end, if nothing, there’s nothing I tried. Right? I’ll find my answers when my time comes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So he started to share with us the evidence that he had been gathering, including his son’s phone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What did you learn about who Valentino Rodriguez was, how he was as a person, and and this journey that he was on? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was it was really incredible. We learned a lot about him. He was a really kind of funny, goofy guy. One of the, you know, things that we found on his phone was this video of him in the Investigative Services unit offices inside this prison. It’s one of the most dangerous prisons in the state of California. And he sets up the camera, and then he steps back, and then he starts dancing, and he’s practicing. He’s learning the cumbia because he’s about to get married. And so he’s practicing the cumbia in this, you know, in this office. And, I just loved kind of coming across these little artifacts of who this person was. He also had a dog named Daisy that he loved and would sing to his dog.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Jr.: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Super Dog. Super Dog. This the song about Daisy, the Super Dog. One day there was a dog named Daisy, and she was super lazy… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he really worked hard at the prison, like he was really wanted to get into this investigative unit. It was a big career opportunity for him. But the unit itself, once he joined, they didn’t really think he had earned the right to be there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So when he had his first day there, he had come over after. And, I asked him, “How’s your how was your first day?” And he goes, “It was a bunch of older guys that have been there.” He called them OGs. I says, “How do you go?” And he goes, “They asked who the f*** are you?” You know, his first day, and I just, “Eh that’s prison talk, I guess.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, they they had a nickname for him called “Half Patch” to indicate, like he he wasn’t a full member of the team, and he didn’t quite deserve to be there yet. And you can see in his phone, you know, he is trying really hard to fit in with this group of guys and they kind of needle him and call him names, like, just really kind of harassing behavior, you know, from work colleagues. You can see that it really does begin to take a toll on Valentino, and he starts to struggle with his mental health. So he actually has a breakdown at work one day and shares with the chief deputy warden that he is going through some, some really difficult things. And she tells him, okay, you should go out on stress leave. And so he takes some time off work from the prison. But even once he leaves the prison, he really can’t leave it all the way. Like he’s still mentally there and still kind of struggling with the effects of his time there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mimy Rodriguez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I remember sitting on the couch with him and him saying. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Mimy Rodriguez, Valentino’s wife. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mimy Rodriguez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I remember this very clearly. He said, “This is my identity.” He’s like, “I feel like I’ve given up on everything. I feel like I gave up on my job.” He wasn’t at the prison physically, but mentally he was still there. He was still talking to people from the prison. He was still reaching out to people from the- people from the prison were reaching out to him, telling him what was going on within the prison. He he had not at all let that go. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reading through his text messages, you can see it’s not like he sets out to become a whistleblower. It’s just eating away at him and he can’t quite let it go. He can’t quite turn away from what he’s seen in the prison. And so six days before his death, he ends up going in to talk to the warden, and he tells them about the harassment that he experienced personally, and also different kinds of misconduct that he witnessed, including allegations that other officers in the unit that he worked in were involved in planting drugs and weapons on incarcerated people. And that’s really important because the unit that he worked in is kind of like the police force for the prison. They have this very special role. And so if they’re dirty, that could taint criminal cases that stem from the investigations they do. And the officers in this unit are supposed to be held to a higher standard because they have this higher level of responsibility in the prison than other officers do. So after he makes this report, the word eventually gets out that he’s talked. And he was really nervous about that happening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mimy Rodriguez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So he was nervous about anybody coming to the house. At one point he had put things at the door, so if someone opened it, you can hear the door open. He also like he had a gun and he would sleep with it just to make sure. And I’m like, “What? Who’s coming?” And I would ask him like, “Is everything okay?” You know, “Who’s- who are you nervous about coming? What is going on?” It’s hard to. It’s hard to see the person you love turn into something different. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The night that he died, one of the last text messages you can see he sent to his wife was, “It’s out now that I told on the team.” And then she comes home to find him slumped over in the bathroom and no longer breathing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it’s I mean, it’s so horrible. Who is the other whistleblower? Tell me about him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the other whistleblower, his name is Sergeant Kevin Steele. He had worked for the California Department of Corrections for about 20 years at this point. He is a military veteran. Just this real kind of straight arrow guy had a very kind of rigorous sense of morality, a very rigorous sense of right and wrong. He’s seen a lot and been through a lot, and was beginning to come to this point of disillusionment with these systems that he had been promised were going to affect change and provide accountability. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s in this environment that his friend Valentino Rodriguez passes away. And so I think for Steele at this point, Valentino’s death was kind of like the last straw for him. He felt like all these things he’s seen over the years and tried to report up the chain had not been properly addressed. And then there was this kind of moral failing in response to the death of an officer and how they treated Latino’s family after his death. And so Steele decides to make his last stand, basically. And what he does is he writes up a memo to the warden detailing the list of failings, as he sees it — times where the institution failed to keep its promises to the public, and times where it failed to keep people safe, and times where it failed to protect officers from harassment and things like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so he writes up this memo and sends it off to the warden. And after that, he actually leaves California. He moves to Missouri, and it seems like his plan was to drop this bomb and then right off into the sunset. He was planning to retire at the end of the year and just kind of be done with the prison and with this whole institution. But much like we saw with Valentino, even though Sergeant Kevin Steele is out of the prison and, you know, even miles and miles away, he’s still trapped there mentally. And, you know, at one point, about eight months after he’s he’s left the state, things reach a head for him. And one day, Steele goes into the shed on his property in Missouri and he doesn’t come out again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean these are, you know, two extremely tragic losses. But both of these whistleblowers, they left behind evidence for you to understand New Folsom, right? The the failures that happened there, like for Valentino, you had his phone and and Steele wrote a memo that talked about his concerns about use of force incidents going back years. What did you find out when you started looking into those? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So one of the things that was really incredible about this story is the evidence that was left behind. Steele’s memo kind of gave us this key to understanding what he saw was wrong with these incidents, which was that the injuries that people were showing up in the hospital with — incarcerated people — were not matching the reports. So we started kind of looking at our incident reports, kind of through this lens that he had left for us. And seeing how repeatedly, these incident reports had this kind of pattern to them, almost. And a lot of these incidents, that appeared very troubling, you know, occurred in areas where there was no camera coverage. And the use of force described often did not, you know, at all make sense on how they got injured. So it would be something like I think one of them was like, “We guided the man to the floor and they ended up, you know, with internal bleeding and, and broken ribs.” And you’re like, okay, like how how does that even make- make that makes sense, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what we saw over and over again in these cases is that they didn’t result in discipline for officers. Well, you know, one theme that we just kind of ran into over and over again is the code of silence. And it’s basically an agreement, you know, unspoken agreement to never tell on each other. And it’s this is something that we’ve seen in policing as well with the Thin Blue line. But I would say it’s even stronger in a prison context. And because there isn’t that thing of a bystander who can kind of intercede or be an outside witness to events, that code of silence is just a really, really thick wall to break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so many people that we talked to, we talked to correctional officers for this story, many of whom did not want to go on the record because they fear retaliation. Even retired officers who still feel like potentially the agency could come after them for their pensions if they talk. There is no real incentive to do so. Like even institutionally, you will be reassigned. You will not be rewarded basically for for reporting things like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re confirming this culture of silence that both Steele and Val experienced and and tried to disrupt. What did you ultimately end up finding out about their deaths? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So again, we did not find there was any evidence of foul play. But I feel like our reporting really does clearly show that they were victims. They were victims of this system, and they were victims of this code of silence and that fear and the kind of psychosocial trauma that they experienced by having to go against this, this machine, in order to try and do what they felt was the right thing, really contributed to their deaths, and contributed to the decline of their mental health and led them to to their end. And this was, in fact, a finding that was made after their deaths. Their widows filed basically workers compensation claims with the state to get their death benefits. And during that process, they found that these deaths were industrial. These deaths were related to their jobs and their work as correctional officers for the state of California. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Your sources included law enforcement, former law enforcement, incarcerated people, their their family members. Like, what are the particular challenges of reporting in and about a prison? Like how does it require a different approach, especially when you’re dealing with people who likely have dealt with some very traumatic things? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, there are a lot of different challenges. I think, you know, in terms of bringing correctional officers in in to feeling like they could speak to us and trust us, it was a lot of conversations about confidentiality, how we could keep them protected, and also that we were trying to tell a deep, nuanced story that that wasn’t just a story about how correctional officers always are using excessive force or something like that. It was this story that we had found, which was very complicated, and it was about the the mental impacts of working inside a prison on officers, and that they experienced some of the same difficult things that incarcerated people experience. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then for the incarcerated people that we spoke to, there was also a lot of different factors to consider. You know, for one thing, a lot of the phone conversations, or all the phone conversations that we had are recorded. So you know that you are being listened in on and that what they say could have impacts for their lives. Some people I talked to have been in prison for years have kind of a vague idea about what a podcast is, but not everybody does, you know? So just kind of walking people through like what- what this means, what their participation means, what going on their record means and stuff like that, so they can be informed and make informed decisions about participating or not. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then, you know, in terms of people who have been dealing with trauma, you know, we talked to Val Senior, obviously, who was kind of in in the throes of his own grieving process. We talked to the family of Sergeant Kevin Steele as well, his brother, who agreed to go on the record with us. And we talked to Mimy, Valentino Rodriguez’s wife. And I think, you know, just in terms of having a trauma informed approach as much as possible, a lot of it was about giving them the power, not trying to be extractive, or just take their story and see how it fit in with our narrative. But to hold space for them to talk about what they had gone through and also the power to be like, “Okay, if you don’t feel like you said that right, or if you want to rethink that, like this is how you’re going to be portrayed in the story, this is the context in which your story is going to be used. Are you comfortable with that?” And saying “if you’re not, you can take it back any time.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it was a lot more conversation than I think you would normally have of going back to sources and playing pieces of tape for them and that kind of thing, but it really felt like the responsible thing to do. So there were no surprises when the podcast came out. And so we could also be sure that we were being accurate and that we were accurately representing the experience of our primary sources. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, people will say sunlight is the best disinfectant. Is it making the difference? Is the reporting, the transparency… How is it impacting these, these prisons? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s it’s still too soon to say. And it’s also kind of the next step. I feel like this is the first step is saying like, “Look, this is what’s happening.” And then the next step is actually beyond our power as journalists. I feel like it’s in the hands of lawmakers and the oversight bodies over the prisons, here in California or nationally. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing that’s interesting to know about the California prison system is that there’s there is an oversight body called the office of the Inspector General of Prisons, and they do get a lot of insight into the prisons, but they have no power. So they regularly issue these reports that say “you’re doing a bad job, you need to do better.” Or like, “this person violated policy. We don’t agree with this.” But until there is a real appetite in internally in the agency to take action or body like that has teeth, this transparency only gets you so far. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s really important again, for the public to know about it, because that is how change happens, is people taking an interest and people, taking a care about this public institution that we own. Like this is our this is our bag. And so I think that’s that’s why I do this work. But then I have to hand it off and see where it goes from there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Well thank you so much. I think this reporting is so important. And it’s the- it’s reporting on people who truly don’t have a voice, people who have died, people who are incarcerated. And you give them a voice. So we’re so grateful to to be able to tell this story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you. And and I also feel honored, you know, that people allowed me to share their stories with so many people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was criminal justice reporter Sukey Lewis, host of On Our Watch from KQED in San Francisco. You can listen to all eight episodes of their latest season at kqed.org/onourwatch, or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Justine Yan and edited by Liana Simstrom, with additional editing by Jen Chien, the director of podcasts at KQED. Production support from Chris Egusa. Our engineer was Robert Rodriguez. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Sunday Story team includes Abby Windle and our senior editor, Jenny Schmidt. Liana Simstrom is our supervising producer and Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. If you are experiencing mental health related distress or have a loved one who needs crisis support, please call or text 988. The Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. I’m Ayesha Rascoe. Up First is back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Get a behind-the-scenes peek at the reporting for On Our Watch: New Folsom as Ayesha Rascoe, host of NPR’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/series/1213771050/the-sunday-story-from-up-first\">The Sunday Story from Up First\u003c/a>, speaks with Sukey about the season and the wider context of this kind of journalism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC6251136710\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mental health resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are currently in crisis, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAMHSA National Help Line\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://988lifeline.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/help\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) Helpline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.hhs.gov/programs/prevention-and-wellness/mental-health-substance-abuse/index.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">US Health and Human Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://warmline.org/warmdir.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warmline Directory\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Whistleblower resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://www.thelamplighterproject.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Lamplighter Project\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://thesignalsnetwork.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Signals Network\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://empowr.us/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">EMPOWR\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblowersofamerica.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whistleblowers of America\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://whistleblower.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Government Accountability Project\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblowers.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">National Whistleblower Center\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://whistlebloweraid.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whistleblower Aid\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism was a key partner in making Season 2 of On Our Watch.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The records obtained for this project are part of the\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> California Reporting Project\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a coalition of news organizations in California. If you have tips or feedback about this series please reach out to us at \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"mailto:onourwatch@kqed.org\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">onourwatch@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi, it’s Sukey. This will be our last bonus episode for a while, but we’ll definitely update you if there are any new developments in our reporting. And from time to time, we’ll also share some other podcasts we think you might be interested in checking out. Today I wanted to share a conversation I had on a different show, the Up First podcast from NPR, where you’ll get to hear more of the backstory behind On Our Watch. Here’s that conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Ayesha Rascoe, and this is a Sunday story. A warning before we get started, this episode contains mentions of suicide. In recent years, high profile cases of police brutality across the US have brought increased attention and scrutiny to police misconduct and use of force incidents. When something happens, the police often say, “We’re investigating.” But what’s really being done, or not done, to ensure police are held accountable for their actions? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2021, a team of reporters from KQED partnered with NPR to take a closer look at the process for how police policed themselves. They made a podcast called On Our Watch, and it was focused on select cases of police misconduct in California. Today, I’m speaking with criminal justice reporter Sukey Lewis, the host of On Our Watch. She and her team have continued to uncover thousands of previously sealed Internal Affairs law enforcement records as part of the multi-newsroom California Reporting Project. Sukey tells me about the reporting behind the new season of her show. In season two, the show digs into recent incidents at one of the most dangerous prisons in California. Our conversation about the story she found within the closed world of correctional facilities, and what it takes to investigate what happens inside of a prison… After the break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back with The Sunday Story. Here with criminal justice reporter Sukey Lewis, host of the KQED podcast On Our Watch. Sukey, welcome to the program. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks so much for having me on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we get into the reporting for the season of On Our Watch, talk to me about the California Reporting Project. You co-founded that in 2018, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. So in 2018, the state here in California passed a new law that would open up internal police records, you know, for the first time, basically, we’d get to see inside this black box of police internal affairs. And that law was called the Right to Know Act. And it affected certain categories of internal records, including deadly use of force incidents, serious use of force incidents, which means, you know, when somebody gets really badly injured by police, and dishonesty and sexual assault or sexual misconduct on duty by police officers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This law gave you access to the paper trail that opened the window to these police departments and how they run, because there’s always a paper trail, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. And for years here in California, it was very secretive. You couldn’t see that paper trail. So some states, like Florida, have had open records laws for a long time. But here in California, because of the power of the police unions, you just could never know. You could never know if somebody was disciplined or fired or like what had happened. And so we teamed up with a group of different news organizations across the state to file blanket public records requests at all 700 law enforcement agencies across the state to start understanding how these systems work. What happens when serious police shooting happens? What happens when you file a complaint against a police officer for excessive force? And they say we’re going to investigate. How does a deadly use of force investigation unfold? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So. So season one of On Our Watch came directly out of this reporting. You examined select misconduct cases and and kind of the shadowy world of police discipline. So what were some of the big lessons or takeaways from your reporting on season one? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think one of our biggest findings was that those promises that we have been made in the public that, “we’re investigating, people will be held accountable,” are really based on this false assumption that its purpose is to provide accountability and that that’s actually not its purpose. It’s a risk management tool. Basically like H.R. Right? If you’re an employee and you make a complaint to H.R., their goal isn’t necessarily to hold the person you made a complaint about to justice. Their goal is to protect the company from liability. That’s what we really found, especially in a secretive system with internal affairs in the world of policing, it was much more about protecting the police department and the city from liability. So sometimes that would mean accountability. Sometimes that would mean an officer gets fired or disciplined because that’s what would protect the city. But that was not actually the goal or the purpose of this institution or the system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this season, you focused on correctional facilities, prisons. How did you decide on that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We decided to turn to the world of correctional facilities in California, because the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation is actually the largest employer of peace officers in the state. And while we had gotten some insight into how police departments were functioning and how these internal affairs systems were working in police departments, the world of corrections is even more of a closed system. I mean, it’s literally behind walls, right? And so getting behind those walls, even if it was just through the paper trail, as you say, seemed like a really important thing to do. And to understand how these prisons, how these small cities work, and how, accountability works in a, in a system where often the people who are making complaints are incarcerated and have even less power than a civilian on the street. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How did you land on the prison that you focused on? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we ended up focusing on a prison known as New Folsom or California State Prison Sacramento. And that’s because as we are analyzing data and records from prisons all across the state, there was this pattern that kind of jumped off the page at us. And it for this category of serious use of force incidents — that’s when an officer uses deadly force or seriously injures somebody — there were three times as many of those type of incidents at this one prison than any other prison in the state. And this just kind of raised our alarm bells. We were like, you know, “What is going on at this prison? You know, why is that such an anomaly in the data? Let’s look closer.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We took our findings to some attorneys who work in this space. And these attorneys, they were also surprised. But they said this prison has been, you know, kind of known, known problem. They said, did you know about the whistleblowers that died there? There are these two whistleblowers that died there in the last year. And those two whistleblowers names were correctional officer Valentino Rodriguez and Sergeant Kevin Steele. Officer Valentino Rodriguez. His death was found to be accidental overdose due to fentanyl. And the second officer, Sergeant Kevin Steele, who died about ten months later, died by suicide. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So within the space of a year, two whistleblowers at this prison had died. I mean, I think that’s going to stop anybody in they tracks. What did you think when you first heard that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, your first thought goes to, is there foul play? Is someone retaliating against these whistleblowers? And so we started doing, you know, what we as investigative journalists do. My colleague Julie Small reached out to the family of Valentino Rodriguez. We both started filing public records requests for the death investigations of each of these men to try and understand what had happened to them, and if there was anything in those death investigations that pointed back to the prison or to to anything else that we needed to uncover. Ultimately, we did not find any evidence of foul play in either case, but we learned a lot more about what they had each been uncovering before they died. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Coming up after the break, Sukey and her team follow the trail of evidence left by correctional officer Valentino Rodriguez and Sergeant Kevin Steele after their deaths. We’re back with a Sunday story. Sukey, once you heard about the two whistleblowers who’d worked at the same prison, New Folsom, you started retracing the events before their deaths. How did you go about that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So one person who ended up being a really key source for us was the father of correctional officer Valentino Rodriguez, who has the same name. So his name is Valentino Rodriguez, Senior. And he ended up being really central to our story. My colleague Julie reached out to him and at first he was really, you know, cautious. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just I just want this to work both ways. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I need to know what you’re doing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s all I’ve ever asked. I- nobody even knows we’re having these meetings other than my wife. Right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When we met him, Val Senior was really clearly, you know, still in the midst of the grieving process. And I think part of that process for him was trying to understand, you know, what led to his son’s passing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just can’t I just can’t turn my back on my son, you know what I mean? And, I owe that to him, and I’m going to go as far as I can. And. And then in the end, if nothing, there’s nothing I tried. Right? I’ll find my answers when my time comes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So he started to share with us the evidence that he had been gathering, including his son’s phone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What did you learn about who Valentino Rodriguez was, how he was as a person, and and this journey that he was on? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was it was really incredible. We learned a lot about him. He was a really kind of funny, goofy guy. One of the, you know, things that we found on his phone was this video of him in the Investigative Services unit offices inside this prison. It’s one of the most dangerous prisons in the state of California. And he sets up the camera, and then he steps back, and then he starts dancing, and he’s practicing. He’s learning the cumbia because he’s about to get married. And so he’s practicing the cumbia in this, you know, in this office. And, I just loved kind of coming across these little artifacts of who this person was. He also had a dog named Daisy that he loved and would sing to his dog.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Jr.: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Super Dog. Super Dog. This the song about Daisy, the Super Dog. One day there was a dog named Daisy, and she was super lazy… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he really worked hard at the prison, like he was really wanted to get into this investigative unit. It was a big career opportunity for him. But the unit itself, once he joined, they didn’t really think he had earned the right to be there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So when he had his first day there, he had come over after. And, I asked him, “How’s your how was your first day?” And he goes, “It was a bunch of older guys that have been there.” He called them OGs. I says, “How do you go?” And he goes, “They asked who the f*** are you?” You know, his first day, and I just, “Eh that’s prison talk, I guess.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, they they had a nickname for him called “Half Patch” to indicate, like he he wasn’t a full member of the team, and he didn’t quite deserve to be there yet. And you can see in his phone, you know, he is trying really hard to fit in with this group of guys and they kind of needle him and call him names, like, just really kind of harassing behavior, you know, from work colleagues. You can see that it really does begin to take a toll on Valentino, and he starts to struggle with his mental health. So he actually has a breakdown at work one day and shares with the chief deputy warden that he is going through some, some really difficult things. And she tells him, okay, you should go out on stress leave. And so he takes some time off work from the prison. But even once he leaves the prison, he really can’t leave it all the way. Like he’s still mentally there and still kind of struggling with the effects of his time there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mimy Rodriguez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I remember sitting on the couch with him and him saying. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Mimy Rodriguez, Valentino’s wife. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mimy Rodriguez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I remember this very clearly. He said, “This is my identity.” He’s like, “I feel like I’ve given up on everything. I feel like I gave up on my job.” He wasn’t at the prison physically, but mentally he was still there. He was still talking to people from the prison. He was still reaching out to people from the- people from the prison were reaching out to him, telling him what was going on within the prison. He he had not at all let that go. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reading through his text messages, you can see it’s not like he sets out to become a whistleblower. It’s just eating away at him and he can’t quite let it go. He can’t quite turn away from what he’s seen in the prison. And so six days before his death, he ends up going in to talk to the warden, and he tells them about the harassment that he experienced personally, and also different kinds of misconduct that he witnessed, including allegations that other officers in the unit that he worked in were involved in planting drugs and weapons on incarcerated people. And that’s really important because the unit that he worked in is kind of like the police force for the prison. They have this very special role. And so if they’re dirty, that could taint criminal cases that stem from the investigations they do. And the officers in this unit are supposed to be held to a higher standard because they have this higher level of responsibility in the prison than other officers do. So after he makes this report, the word eventually gets out that he’s talked. And he was really nervous about that happening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mimy Rodriguez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So he was nervous about anybody coming to the house. At one point he had put things at the door, so if someone opened it, you can hear the door open. He also like he had a gun and he would sleep with it just to make sure. And I’m like, “What? Who’s coming?” And I would ask him like, “Is everything okay?” You know, “Who’s- who are you nervous about coming? What is going on?” It’s hard to. It’s hard to see the person you love turn into something different. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The night that he died, one of the last text messages you can see he sent to his wife was, “It’s out now that I told on the team.” And then she comes home to find him slumped over in the bathroom and no longer breathing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it’s I mean, it’s so horrible. Who is the other whistleblower? Tell me about him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the other whistleblower, his name is Sergeant Kevin Steele. He had worked for the California Department of Corrections for about 20 years at this point. He is a military veteran. Just this real kind of straight arrow guy had a very kind of rigorous sense of morality, a very rigorous sense of right and wrong. He’s seen a lot and been through a lot, and was beginning to come to this point of disillusionment with these systems that he had been promised were going to affect change and provide accountability. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s in this environment that his friend Valentino Rodriguez passes away. And so I think for Steele at this point, Valentino’s death was kind of like the last straw for him. He felt like all these things he’s seen over the years and tried to report up the chain had not been properly addressed. And then there was this kind of moral failing in response to the death of an officer and how they treated Latino’s family after his death. And so Steele decides to make his last stand, basically. And what he does is he writes up a memo to the warden detailing the list of failings, as he sees it — times where the institution failed to keep its promises to the public, and times where it failed to keep people safe, and times where it failed to protect officers from harassment and things like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so he writes up this memo and sends it off to the warden. And after that, he actually leaves California. He moves to Missouri, and it seems like his plan was to drop this bomb and then right off into the sunset. He was planning to retire at the end of the year and just kind of be done with the prison and with this whole institution. But much like we saw with Valentino, even though Sergeant Kevin Steele is out of the prison and, you know, even miles and miles away, he’s still trapped there mentally. And, you know, at one point, about eight months after he’s he’s left the state, things reach a head for him. And one day, Steele goes into the shed on his property in Missouri and he doesn’t come out again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean these are, you know, two extremely tragic losses. But both of these whistleblowers, they left behind evidence for you to understand New Folsom, right? The the failures that happened there, like for Valentino, you had his phone and and Steele wrote a memo that talked about his concerns about use of force incidents going back years. What did you find out when you started looking into those? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So one of the things that was really incredible about this story is the evidence that was left behind. Steele’s memo kind of gave us this key to understanding what he saw was wrong with these incidents, which was that the injuries that people were showing up in the hospital with — incarcerated people — were not matching the reports. So we started kind of looking at our incident reports, kind of through this lens that he had left for us. And seeing how repeatedly, these incident reports had this kind of pattern to them, almost. And a lot of these incidents, that appeared very troubling, you know, occurred in areas where there was no camera coverage. And the use of force described often did not, you know, at all make sense on how they got injured. So it would be something like I think one of them was like, “We guided the man to the floor and they ended up, you know, with internal bleeding and, and broken ribs.” And you’re like, okay, like how how does that even make- make that makes sense, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what we saw over and over again in these cases is that they didn’t result in discipline for officers. Well, you know, one theme that we just kind of ran into over and over again is the code of silence. And it’s basically an agreement, you know, unspoken agreement to never tell on each other. And it’s this is something that we’ve seen in policing as well with the Thin Blue line. But I would say it’s even stronger in a prison context. And because there isn’t that thing of a bystander who can kind of intercede or be an outside witness to events, that code of silence is just a really, really thick wall to break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so many people that we talked to, we talked to correctional officers for this story, many of whom did not want to go on the record because they fear retaliation. Even retired officers who still feel like potentially the agency could come after them for their pensions if they talk. There is no real incentive to do so. Like even institutionally, you will be reassigned. You will not be rewarded basically for for reporting things like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re confirming this culture of silence that both Steele and Val experienced and and tried to disrupt. What did you ultimately end up finding out about their deaths? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So again, we did not find there was any evidence of foul play. But I feel like our reporting really does clearly show that they were victims. They were victims of this system, and they were victims of this code of silence and that fear and the kind of psychosocial trauma that they experienced by having to go against this, this machine, in order to try and do what they felt was the right thing, really contributed to their deaths, and contributed to the decline of their mental health and led them to to their end. And this was, in fact, a finding that was made after their deaths. Their widows filed basically workers compensation claims with the state to get their death benefits. And during that process, they found that these deaths were industrial. These deaths were related to their jobs and their work as correctional officers for the state of California. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Your sources included law enforcement, former law enforcement, incarcerated people, their their family members. Like, what are the particular challenges of reporting in and about a prison? Like how does it require a different approach, especially when you’re dealing with people who likely have dealt with some very traumatic things? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, there are a lot of different challenges. I think, you know, in terms of bringing correctional officers in in to feeling like they could speak to us and trust us, it was a lot of conversations about confidentiality, how we could keep them protected, and also that we were trying to tell a deep, nuanced story that that wasn’t just a story about how correctional officers always are using excessive force or something like that. It was this story that we had found, which was very complicated, and it was about the the mental impacts of working inside a prison on officers, and that they experienced some of the same difficult things that incarcerated people experience. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then for the incarcerated people that we spoke to, there was also a lot of different factors to consider. You know, for one thing, a lot of the phone conversations, or all the phone conversations that we had are recorded. So you know that you are being listened in on and that what they say could have impacts for their lives. Some people I talked to have been in prison for years have kind of a vague idea about what a podcast is, but not everybody does, you know? So just kind of walking people through like what- what this means, what their participation means, what going on their record means and stuff like that, so they can be informed and make informed decisions about participating or not. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then, you know, in terms of people who have been dealing with trauma, you know, we talked to Val Senior, obviously, who was kind of in in the throes of his own grieving process. We talked to the family of Sergeant Kevin Steele as well, his brother, who agreed to go on the record with us. And we talked to Mimy, Valentino Rodriguez’s wife. And I think, you know, just in terms of having a trauma informed approach as much as possible, a lot of it was about giving them the power, not trying to be extractive, or just take their story and see how it fit in with our narrative. But to hold space for them to talk about what they had gone through and also the power to be like, “Okay, if you don’t feel like you said that right, or if you want to rethink that, like this is how you’re going to be portrayed in the story, this is the context in which your story is going to be used. Are you comfortable with that?” And saying “if you’re not, you can take it back any time.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it was a lot more conversation than I think you would normally have of going back to sources and playing pieces of tape for them and that kind of thing, but it really felt like the responsible thing to do. So there were no surprises when the podcast came out. And so we could also be sure that we were being accurate and that we were accurately representing the experience of our primary sources. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, people will say sunlight is the best disinfectant. Is it making the difference? Is the reporting, the transparency… How is it impacting these, these prisons? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s it’s still too soon to say. And it’s also kind of the next step. I feel like this is the first step is saying like, “Look, this is what’s happening.” And then the next step is actually beyond our power as journalists. I feel like it’s in the hands of lawmakers and the oversight bodies over the prisons, here in California or nationally. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing that’s interesting to know about the California prison system is that there’s there is an oversight body called the office of the Inspector General of Prisons, and they do get a lot of insight into the prisons, but they have no power. So they regularly issue these reports that say “you’re doing a bad job, you need to do better.” Or like, “this person violated policy. We don’t agree with this.” But until there is a real appetite in internally in the agency to take action or body like that has teeth, this transparency only gets you so far. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s really important again, for the public to know about it, because that is how change happens, is people taking an interest and people, taking a care about this public institution that we own. Like this is our this is our bag. And so I think that’s that’s why I do this work. But then I have to hand it off and see where it goes from there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Well thank you so much. I think this reporting is so important. And it’s the- it’s reporting on people who truly don’t have a voice, people who have died, people who are incarcerated. And you give them a voice. So we’re so grateful to to be able to tell this story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you. And and I also feel honored, you know, that people allowed me to share their stories with so many people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayesha Rascoe: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was criminal justice reporter Sukey Lewis, host of On Our Watch from KQED in San Francisco. You can listen to all eight episodes of their latest season at kqed.org/onourwatch, or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Justine Yan and edited by Liana Simstrom, with additional editing by Jen Chien, the director of podcasts at KQED. Production support from Chris Egusa. Our engineer was Robert Rodriguez. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Sunday Story team includes Abby Windle and our senior editor, Jenny Schmidt. Liana Simstrom is our supervising producer and Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. If you are experiencing mental health related distress or have a loved one who needs crisis support, please call or text 988. The Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. I’m Ayesha Rascoe. Up First is back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On Our Watch \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">was made possible by the passage of a groundbreaking law enforcement sunshine bill in 2018. Today we talk to California State Senator Nancy Skinner, who co-authored the state’s “Right to Know Act,” about the legacy of her landmark bill, ongoing obstacles to transparency, and the need for accountability in California prisons.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC4741087741\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Learn more about Sen. Skinner’s work on law enforcement transparency, including The Right to Know Act (SB 1421) and SB 16, by visiting her \u003ca href=\"https://sd09.senate.ca.gov/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">webpage\u003c/a>. The \u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">California Reporting Project\u003c/a>, a coalition of newsrooms, provides insights into how these open-records acts are being implemented.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mental health resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are currently in crisis, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAMHSA National Help Line\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://988lifeline.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/help\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) Helpline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.hhs.gov/programs/prevention-and-wellness/mental-health-substance-abuse/index.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">US Health and Human Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://warmline.org/warmdir.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warmline Directory\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism was a key partner in making Season 2 of On Our Watch.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The records obtained for this project are part of the\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> California Reporting Project\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a coalition of news organizations in California. If you have tips or feedback about this series please reach out to us at \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"mailto:onourwatch@kqed.org\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">onourwatch@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we start, just wanted to give you a heads up that this episode briefly references violence, sexual assault, and suicide. If you or someone you know needs support, we’ve got links to resources in the episode description. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey everyone, Sukey here. I’ve got a conversation with a very special guest to share with you in this bonus episode of On Our Watch. Those internal affairs recordings that you heard in this podcast, both in Season One and in Season Two, never would have been made public without California State Senator \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nancy Skinner\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. She authored a landmark police transparency bill — Senate Bill 1421 — which was signed into law in 2018 as the Right to Know Act. This law finally broke through decades of secrecy in the state, and she further expanded it a few years later with SB 16. Skinner is serving her final term in the legislature this year and joined me to talk about her legacy, the ongoing barriers to transparency, and I was able to share with her some of what we found out about use of force at New Folsom and the crisis among correctional staff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much for joining me, Senator. As the architect of this law, which has done so much for law enforcement transparency in California, I wanted to bring you on the podcast to reflect on what’s changed in the past five years. You know, where you still see the need for improvement in terms of transparency. But before we get into all that, can you also just give us a little insight into how the law came to be? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Certainly, and thank you for doing the podcast and for focusing on this very important issue. Back in the 70s, California passed a law that blocked public access to any and all records related to police conduct. And if you compare that to California’s Public Records Act, where you can pretty much request or receive any info you might want about a city or county employee, whether they’re a librarian or a street sweeper, you can find out anything. It doesn’t even have to be misconduct. But not police. They were the one category of, say, city or county employees, just as an example, where you could get no information. So California had almost a 50 year block and a total secrecy on police records, which made us arguably the least transparent state in the US of A. Which is odd when you consider, you know, what we pride ourselves about. And there were numerous previous attempts by other legislators. And when those efforts came around, when I was in the Assembly, I voted yes on each one of them, but none of them made it. I can tell you a little bit more about then why my staff and I in 2018 decided to act. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, tell me about that. Like what made the conditions kind of ripe for it to to finally go through in 2018? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were a number of well publicized law enforcement incidents, whether it’s Rodney King or other things, Oscar Grant, the shooting at the BART platform on a New Year’s Eve, you know, where the public was like, “Hey, what happened? What went on? And were these people investigated and or did the police act justifiably, you know, what were the conditions?” But we couldn’t find out. So, you know, there’s always been some high profile incidents, but there just seemed to be much more public attention to a number of high profile incidents in 2018, in that time period, where there was an openness for some access to police records. So those were some of the things that then made my staff and I sit down and think, “Okay, if we’re going to attempt this, given that every attempt prior has failed, how are we going to frame it?” And we thought, “All right, we’re going to focus on three specific areas. If an officer kills someone or causes great bodily injury or used a gun on someone, that those are things that of course the public feels like, ‘Hey, I want to know what happened there.’ If there was sexual assault by an officer on a member of the public, or if an officer is engaged in falsifying records or dishonesty, tampering of evidence, that kind of thing.” So we thought, “Those three who could, who could in a justifiably or with their head held up high, argue that those things should not be made publicly available.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The law, The Right to Know Act, went into effect, actually before the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis and the massive protests, which was really interesting just as a reporter, to be equipped when that happened to begin to respond to questions here in California about police departments, we finally were able to get some answers and to get some transparency. In the last season of this podcast, we were able to find out new details about the killing of Oscar Grant that were really impactful for the family. And also, I think really important and understanding that like seminal incident for you, you know, what’s the most gratifying impact that you’ve seen from the law that you’re the most proud of? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, let’s talk the Oscar Grant situation. The Fruitvale Bart station is in my district. Oscar Grant was my constituent. I know now his mother very well. His uncle, Uncle Bobby, various other family members. And, when that incident occurred, BART itself did not have good police review. And so that was one of the big issues that people felt like, “Wow, BART doesn’t even have an independent review board of their police. And of course, we can’t get records on this incident.” And of course, the family, I mean, they were kept in the dark until there were the lawsuits. I mean, sure, there were charges taken against the officer who killed Oscar Grant. That officer was Johannes Mehserle. But the only information they got was that which was revealed in court. They had no other information, and it was just horrible to watch that. So I was very, very happy when 1421 passed. That immediately of course, Oscar Grant’s family requested those records. It took a while for BART to release them, but they did finally get them, and it brought a lot of closure for them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now let’s go to: how does public safety work? How do we achieve public safety? It’s not just having police in our communities. It’s that the police have the cooperation and respect from community members. So from my point of view, if we know that our police departments and our law enforcement agencies take misconduct seriously and that they hold officers accountable for misconduct, then we’re going to trust them more. And when we get the records, it lets us know, “Hey, you know, it was officer X accused of anything? And if so, what steps did our police department take in investigating officer X? And then, what consequences were there?” That’s why having access to these records is important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And where is the conversation around law enforcement transparency now? Like what have you heard from your constituents? What are the conversations you have with other lawmakers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, you know, we’ve discussed already that 1421, the first attempt that was successful in over 40 years was modest. And then we did SB 16, because we saw, you know, whether it was George Floyd or other incidents — we just saw that look, racial bias is a legitimate thing for the public to know. Are there a set of officers in a particular department that have, you know, umpteen numbers of complaints around racial bias that have been investigated and upheld? And then some of the other things that SB 16 did was look at what other kinds of excessive use of force — so not just the gun. There are many other types of excessive force. Or the other thing we wanted to ensure, let’s say you’re an officer who, under 1421 that you had some falsifying of records, you had committed some dishonesty. And we you know, we want to find out about this. Well, you quit the force before the investigation is completed. So then it’s not on your personnel record and it’s not available to me. So then you go and get hired by another police agency. So basically, by not requiring that records follow the officer and that each agency who hires an officer requests explicitly whether there were, you know, such investigations on that officer — we allow bad apples to move around to different law enforcement agencies. So that was another really important improvement of SB 16. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But of course, there are probably other legitimate things that the public has the right to know that aren’t covered yet in 1421 or 16. And, you know, we can talk about some of that, I have ideas. Somebody in the future will have to do them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing that we’ve seen, you know, in recent years, especially like since the passage of the Right to Know Act, are these memorandums that are being entered into between the employers- the employing agency and the unions, basically giving notice or agreeing to give notice to any officer who is named in their records before they’re released. And, you know, in some lights, like you can see how that makes sense, right? Like, oh, my name is going to go out to the public. I would like to know that as an individual. But I think my concern from a transparency perspective is that it also gives the ability then for the union lawyers to intervene and say, oh, this is actually not a discloseable record. And they get kind of a first shot at claiming that it’s non-discloseable before the public gets a chance to look at the underlying misconduct. And so I just wanted to know if you’ve heard anything about that or you know if you have any thoughts on it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well I’ve definitely heard some about it. And I’ll preface my next set of comments about it with, look, police officers have a very difficult job. I do not envy police officers. Every time they walk out of their door, meaning, you know, they leave home to go to work in uniform, they take their lives in their hands. I’m careful about the way I do legislation, such as both SB 1421 and SB 16, to legitimately give our officers some right to privacy. Their names should not be disclosed when it’s not appropriate. We don’t need them to be targets if they have not, you know, really engaged in serious misconduct. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I’m very, very protective of that privacy. And I also respect their ability to have a collective bargaining unit, to be in a union. Now, on the other hand, it’s I don’t like MOU agreements that unnecessarily or unlawfully delay the release of records that the public have a right to know about. So it is a balance. We want to protect their privacy, but we do not want MOUs that are counter to good laws that we have passed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At my organization, KQED, you know, we’ve really made a push statewide to try and get as many of these internal records as possible to help the public, you know, gain access and understanding of these, you know, key public institutions — our local police departments, state law enforcement agencies. And most recently, my focus has really been on the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, which is the largest employer of peace officers in the state and is also one of the most kind of, obscure, not obscure agencies, but opaque. Yeah, very, you know, hard, hard to see inside of it’s a closed world, literally. You know, with everything happens behind these walls. And, you know, one thing that we were able to find out by, you know, utilizing the public records law by utilizing the Right to Know Act, was the incredibly high number of these very serious use of force incidents at this one prison, California State Prison, Sacramento, which is also kind of colloquially known as New Folsom. And I was just wondering, like in your years kind of on the public Safety Committee and, you know, overseeing CDCR and other, via other committees, if this prison had come to your attention before. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, first, this is exactly the proof of the validity and the need for bills like 1421 and SB 16 — to enable us to get that information about… If we have a particular prison that has far higher incidence, then we have to wonder, what is it about the culture at that prison that creates this kind of violence? Staff on incarcerated individual violence, which your request of the record seems to indicate. Because we, interestingly, even legislators, I can’t just go to a prison unannounced and visit it. No, there’s all kinds of rules that prohibit. And California now, you know, we already talked about we had the 40 year kind of, 50 year really blackout on these records. Well, we’ve had almost an equivalent number of years where we’ve denied media access to our prisons. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And again, this is where we are an outlier. Many, many states, Maine, Rhode Island, many others allow much more journalistic access to their prisons than California does. Which is why I’m carrying a bill this year, SB 254, which would restore limited access of news media to our California prisons, as well as access to our judicial branch and legislators to be able to, you know, go in and check out the conditions in our prisons. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I chair California’s Women’s Caucus, which is now 50 strong. We have 50 women in the legislature out of 120. So we’re really proud of that. But we’ve been focused on there’s two women’s state prisons. And just this year we have a situation where a D.A. in, I believe it’s Madera County, has charged one officer from our facility in Chowchilla — our women’s facility in Chowchilla — charged that officer with 90 counts of sexual assault against some 16 different incarcerated individuals. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the horrific part was that he did this sexual assault while these women were waiting to go before the parole board. So here you are. You’re prepping yourself. You know, this is the determination of whether you can go free or not. And this man is taking you into a room and assaulting you. I mean, it is beyond horrific. So the Women’s Caucus, we have gotten very involved in that. We did a trip to that prison. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So far, we don’t have a comprehensive set of things that we’re trying to enact to change the conditions, but we certainly have strengthened California’s Office of the Inspector General over our prisons, for the incarcerated individuals to get complaints of this sort of behavior to the inspector general rather than just to officials within the prison therein. Because, of course, when you’re in that kind of closed environment, you don’t know, is your complaint even going to be taken seriously? So those are some of the issues that having transparency, getting records, getting journalists into our prisons is going to help us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have, also in my reporting, talked to quite a few incarcerated women who, you know, experienced things themselves and also just experienced the brokenness of the grievance system. I think one of the, you know, very concerning patterns that we found in our reporting was just how many similar grievances we found piling up against a particular officer. So it was very easy to identify somebody who was repeatedly using very serious use of force and injuring people. And people were filing grievances on this person, but there was no upholding of it. There was no discipline. And a lot of that goes down to kind of the credibility issue that the incarcerated people filing the grievances didn’t have credibility, and it wasn’t captured on camera. And I think for some of the sexual assault instances, it’s been the same where it’s like piled up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Well, the the officer I mentioned with the 80 counts against him, his name is Rod- Rodriguez. You know, he took the women in a room. He knew the camera was not there. There was no camera in the room that he took them. And, you know, that was definitely purposefully done. And it was over a number of years, the assaults. And it’s hard to imagine that no one else knew. So the other thing that we have to make sure is that whatever reforms we put in not only go after the perpetrator, but anyone who aids or abets or… Aids or abets the perpetrator or sees it and does nothing about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And I think that is going to be the key, which is also, I think, a really tough nut to crack, you know, which is the issue of the code of silence, the culture of fear inside CDCR. And that that is not just the people who are incarcerated, that’s staff as well. You know, medical staff that I’ve spoken to, psychiatric staff and also correctional officers, and they fear blowing the whistle. They fear coming forward. And they say if they do, you know, they fear that they will be, you know, labeled a rat by their fellow officers and mistreated by them. And then that administrators also, they’ll kind of blacklist them and put them off to the side. It will be very kind of subtle and hard to see retaliation, but that retaliation that they know will come or that they say they know will come. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The terrible, terrible irony of this mistreatment — this, in some cases, brutal conditions — in our prison facilities against our incarcerated individuals. The damage is not just the incarcerated individual. Our corrections officers, they have high rates of suicide. They have their average life expectancy is they die before age 60. While they can retire with great retirement benefits at, I think, age 52 or so. They don’t even live past that. And so the level of stress when you’re in a setting like that, where either you are yourself engaged in this, you know, very inhumane conditions, inhumane treatment — or that you are, you know, going against your own moral self to observing it — it damages everyone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this is why I think Governor Newsom has adopted this Norway model. And a number of US legislators have taken trips. And I was one of them, who we’ve gone and seen the prisons in Norway and what they do instead and how they treat it. They look at their prison system as, “Yes, the individual committed a heinous act, however likely that individual at some point is going to go back home, is going to live in our community. So how do we use the time that we have them in custody to best bring them to a circumstance where they can be productive and healthy and contribute to their community instead of hurting it?” So I was very, very happy to see Governor Newsom embrace that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You brought up, you know, officer suicide, which was, you know, a really recurrent theme and and problem that we found in our reporting as well. And I think one thing that really shocked me was just how many suicides there were. You know, we found through talking to the correctional officers union, the CCPOA and other word of mouth sources that 31 officers died over a four year period by suicide between 2020 and 2024. And that was just a pretty staggering number and also not a complete number. And so I went to CDCR and asked them for their numbers, and they said, “We don’t track this.” And the fact that they said they don’t track this problem, which I feel is like the highest level red flag indicator of a mental health crisis in their employee base, I think is very problematic. I don’t know if you can comment on that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, they should track it, and I feel that CCPOA should also, because there’s often tension between the legislature and CCPOA, that’s the prison guards union. But I think if- the legislature in general, we don’t want unhealthy work conditions for anyone. And here this is one of our largest base of state workers. And the consequences of bad conditions on the job for them have great consequences, not only on them, as you’ve indicated with the suicides, but also just their, you know, their life expectancy rate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it also has bad consequences on the individuals who are in the prison. And while California hasn’t embraced completely Norway’s sense that, “Look, our role at prisons is not focused really on punishment, but it should be to prepare you to go home.” The reality is the majority of our people go home, too. In other words, the majority of people that we’re holding in a state prison eventually go home. So what good does it do if we send them home damaged? And what good does it do if the employees who are in charge of them in custody are also damaged? None of that is healthy. So it’s one thing I’ve done a lot is engaged with our CCPOA to, you know, really work with them together to kind of embrace, “Hey, we could do it differently and it could be much improved for you, the worker and for that individual who’s being held by us.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. I know I’ve taken up a lot of your time, and I just so appreciate it. And I wanted to know, is there anything else that I didn’t ask you about that you want to bring up today or talk about on the podcast? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I- this is my last year in the legislature, so I won’t get to, you know, add more police transparency, at least as a legislator for the moment. But I certainly, as chair of the Women’s Caucus, we have engaged more in these issues because I really hope that more of my colleagues that are going to continue in the legislature beyond me, will, will really embrace the importance of, that we have a good carceral system. And I know for some people that just putting those two words together is from their, their point of view, an oxymoron. But public safety is our objective. And having a inhumane system does not help public safety. And I think more of my women colleagues are understanding that. And we’re even- we’ve arranged a trip to Scotland, Northern Ireland and Ireland for some women legislators in September to visit their women’s carceral facilities and to see how they’re doing it differently in those countries, to see what lessons learned we can bring home to California. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much for your time, Senator. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. Thank you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you want to learn more about the Right to Know Act and other law enforcement transparency bills, we’ll include links in the episode description. Please continue to send tips or feedback about the series to onourwatch@kqed.org. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was hosted by me, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sukey Lewis\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is also KQED’s Director of podcasts. It was produced by Chris Egusa, final mixing by Christopher Beale. Original music by Ramtin Arablouei, including our theme song. Additional music from APM Music and Audio Network. Funding for On Our Watch is provided in part by Arnold Ventures and the California Endowment. Thank you to Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager; our Managing Editor of News and Enterprise, Otis R. Taylor Jr.; Ethan Toven-Lindsay, our Vice President of News; and KQED Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan. And thanks to all of you for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On Our Watch \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">was made possible by the passage of a groundbreaking law enforcement sunshine bill in 2018. Today we talk to California State Senator Nancy Skinner, who co-authored the state’s “Right to Know Act,” about the legacy of her landmark bill, ongoing obstacles to transparency, and the need for accountability in California prisons.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC4741087741\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Learn more about Sen. Skinner’s work on law enforcement transparency, including The Right to Know Act (SB 1421) and SB 16, by visiting her \u003ca href=\"https://sd09.senate.ca.gov/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">webpage\u003c/a>. The \u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">California Reporting Project\u003c/a>, a coalition of newsrooms, provides insights into how these open-records acts are being implemented.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mental health resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are currently in crisis, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAMHSA National Help Line\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://988lifeline.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/help\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) Helpline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.hhs.gov/programs/prevention-and-wellness/mental-health-substance-abuse/index.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">US Health and Human Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://warmline.org/warmdir.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warmline Directory\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism was a key partner in making Season 2 of On Our Watch.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The records obtained for this project are part of the\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> California Reporting Project\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a coalition of news organizations in California. If you have tips or feedback about this series please reach out to us at \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"mailto:onourwatch@kqed.org\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">onourwatch@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we start, just wanted to give you a heads up that this episode briefly references violence, sexual assault, and suicide. If you or someone you know needs support, we’ve got links to resources in the episode description. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey everyone, Sukey here. I’ve got a conversation with a very special guest to share with you in this bonus episode of On Our Watch. Those internal affairs recordings that you heard in this podcast, both in Season One and in Season Two, never would have been made public without California State Senator \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nancy Skinner\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. She authored a landmark police transparency bill — Senate Bill 1421 — which was signed into law in 2018 as the Right to Know Act. This law finally broke through decades of secrecy in the state, and she further expanded it a few years later with SB 16. Skinner is serving her final term in the legislature this year and joined me to talk about her legacy, the ongoing barriers to transparency, and I was able to share with her some of what we found out about use of force at New Folsom and the crisis among correctional staff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much for joining me, Senator. As the architect of this law, which has done so much for law enforcement transparency in California, I wanted to bring you on the podcast to reflect on what’s changed in the past five years. You know, where you still see the need for improvement in terms of transparency. But before we get into all that, can you also just give us a little insight into how the law came to be? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Certainly, and thank you for doing the podcast and for focusing on this very important issue. Back in the 70s, California passed a law that blocked public access to any and all records related to police conduct. And if you compare that to California’s Public Records Act, where you can pretty much request or receive any info you might want about a city or county employee, whether they’re a librarian or a street sweeper, you can find out anything. It doesn’t even have to be misconduct. But not police. They were the one category of, say, city or county employees, just as an example, where you could get no information. So California had almost a 50 year block and a total secrecy on police records, which made us arguably the least transparent state in the US of A. Which is odd when you consider, you know, what we pride ourselves about. And there were numerous previous attempts by other legislators. And when those efforts came around, when I was in the Assembly, I voted yes on each one of them, but none of them made it. I can tell you a little bit more about then why my staff and I in 2018 decided to act. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, tell me about that. Like what made the conditions kind of ripe for it to to finally go through in 2018? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were a number of well publicized law enforcement incidents, whether it’s Rodney King or other things, Oscar Grant, the shooting at the BART platform on a New Year’s Eve, you know, where the public was like, “Hey, what happened? What went on? And were these people investigated and or did the police act justifiably, you know, what were the conditions?” But we couldn’t find out. So, you know, there’s always been some high profile incidents, but there just seemed to be much more public attention to a number of high profile incidents in 2018, in that time period, where there was an openness for some access to police records. So those were some of the things that then made my staff and I sit down and think, “Okay, if we’re going to attempt this, given that every attempt prior has failed, how are we going to frame it?” And we thought, “All right, we’re going to focus on three specific areas. If an officer kills someone or causes great bodily injury or used a gun on someone, that those are things that of course the public feels like, ‘Hey, I want to know what happened there.’ If there was sexual assault by an officer on a member of the public, or if an officer is engaged in falsifying records or dishonesty, tampering of evidence, that kind of thing.” So we thought, “Those three who could, who could in a justifiably or with their head held up high, argue that those things should not be made publicly available.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The law, The Right to Know Act, went into effect, actually before the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis and the massive protests, which was really interesting just as a reporter, to be equipped when that happened to begin to respond to questions here in California about police departments, we finally were able to get some answers and to get some transparency. In the last season of this podcast, we were able to find out new details about the killing of Oscar Grant that were really impactful for the family. And also, I think really important and understanding that like seminal incident for you, you know, what’s the most gratifying impact that you’ve seen from the law that you’re the most proud of? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, let’s talk the Oscar Grant situation. The Fruitvale Bart station is in my district. Oscar Grant was my constituent. I know now his mother very well. His uncle, Uncle Bobby, various other family members. And, when that incident occurred, BART itself did not have good police review. And so that was one of the big issues that people felt like, “Wow, BART doesn’t even have an independent review board of their police. And of course, we can’t get records on this incident.” And of course, the family, I mean, they were kept in the dark until there were the lawsuits. I mean, sure, there were charges taken against the officer who killed Oscar Grant. That officer was Johannes Mehserle. But the only information they got was that which was revealed in court. They had no other information, and it was just horrible to watch that. So I was very, very happy when 1421 passed. That immediately of course, Oscar Grant’s family requested those records. It took a while for BART to release them, but they did finally get them, and it brought a lot of closure for them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now let’s go to: how does public safety work? How do we achieve public safety? It’s not just having police in our communities. It’s that the police have the cooperation and respect from community members. So from my point of view, if we know that our police departments and our law enforcement agencies take misconduct seriously and that they hold officers accountable for misconduct, then we’re going to trust them more. And when we get the records, it lets us know, “Hey, you know, it was officer X accused of anything? And if so, what steps did our police department take in investigating officer X? And then, what consequences were there?” That’s why having access to these records is important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And where is the conversation around law enforcement transparency now? Like what have you heard from your constituents? What are the conversations you have with other lawmakers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, you know, we’ve discussed already that 1421, the first attempt that was successful in over 40 years was modest. And then we did SB 16, because we saw, you know, whether it was George Floyd or other incidents — we just saw that look, racial bias is a legitimate thing for the public to know. Are there a set of officers in a particular department that have, you know, umpteen numbers of complaints around racial bias that have been investigated and upheld? And then some of the other things that SB 16 did was look at what other kinds of excessive use of force — so not just the gun. There are many other types of excessive force. Or the other thing we wanted to ensure, let’s say you’re an officer who, under 1421 that you had some falsifying of records, you had committed some dishonesty. And we you know, we want to find out about this. Well, you quit the force before the investigation is completed. So then it’s not on your personnel record and it’s not available to me. So then you go and get hired by another police agency. So basically, by not requiring that records follow the officer and that each agency who hires an officer requests explicitly whether there were, you know, such investigations on that officer — we allow bad apples to move around to different law enforcement agencies. So that was another really important improvement of SB 16. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But of course, there are probably other legitimate things that the public has the right to know that aren’t covered yet in 1421 or 16. And, you know, we can talk about some of that, I have ideas. Somebody in the future will have to do them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing that we’ve seen, you know, in recent years, especially like since the passage of the Right to Know Act, are these memorandums that are being entered into between the employers- the employing agency and the unions, basically giving notice or agreeing to give notice to any officer who is named in their records before they’re released. And, you know, in some lights, like you can see how that makes sense, right? Like, oh, my name is going to go out to the public. I would like to know that as an individual. But I think my concern from a transparency perspective is that it also gives the ability then for the union lawyers to intervene and say, oh, this is actually not a discloseable record. And they get kind of a first shot at claiming that it’s non-discloseable before the public gets a chance to look at the underlying misconduct. And so I just wanted to know if you’ve heard anything about that or you know if you have any thoughts on it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well I’ve definitely heard some about it. And I’ll preface my next set of comments about it with, look, police officers have a very difficult job. I do not envy police officers. Every time they walk out of their door, meaning, you know, they leave home to go to work in uniform, they take their lives in their hands. I’m careful about the way I do legislation, such as both SB 1421 and SB 16, to legitimately give our officers some right to privacy. Their names should not be disclosed when it’s not appropriate. We don’t need them to be targets if they have not, you know, really engaged in serious misconduct. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I’m very, very protective of that privacy. And I also respect their ability to have a collective bargaining unit, to be in a union. Now, on the other hand, it’s I don’t like MOU agreements that unnecessarily or unlawfully delay the release of records that the public have a right to know about. So it is a balance. We want to protect their privacy, but we do not want MOUs that are counter to good laws that we have passed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At my organization, KQED, you know, we’ve really made a push statewide to try and get as many of these internal records as possible to help the public, you know, gain access and understanding of these, you know, key public institutions — our local police departments, state law enforcement agencies. And most recently, my focus has really been on the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, which is the largest employer of peace officers in the state and is also one of the most kind of, obscure, not obscure agencies, but opaque. Yeah, very, you know, hard, hard to see inside of it’s a closed world, literally. You know, with everything happens behind these walls. And, you know, one thing that we were able to find out by, you know, utilizing the public records law by utilizing the Right to Know Act, was the incredibly high number of these very serious use of force incidents at this one prison, California State Prison, Sacramento, which is also kind of colloquially known as New Folsom. And I was just wondering, like in your years kind of on the public Safety Committee and, you know, overseeing CDCR and other, via other committees, if this prison had come to your attention before. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, first, this is exactly the proof of the validity and the need for bills like 1421 and SB 16 — to enable us to get that information about… If we have a particular prison that has far higher incidence, then we have to wonder, what is it about the culture at that prison that creates this kind of violence? Staff on incarcerated individual violence, which your request of the record seems to indicate. Because we, interestingly, even legislators, I can’t just go to a prison unannounced and visit it. No, there’s all kinds of rules that prohibit. And California now, you know, we already talked about we had the 40 year kind of, 50 year really blackout on these records. Well, we’ve had almost an equivalent number of years where we’ve denied media access to our prisons. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And again, this is where we are an outlier. Many, many states, Maine, Rhode Island, many others allow much more journalistic access to their prisons than California does. Which is why I’m carrying a bill this year, SB 254, which would restore limited access of news media to our California prisons, as well as access to our judicial branch and legislators to be able to, you know, go in and check out the conditions in our prisons. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I chair California’s Women’s Caucus, which is now 50 strong. We have 50 women in the legislature out of 120. So we’re really proud of that. But we’ve been focused on there’s two women’s state prisons. And just this year we have a situation where a D.A. in, I believe it’s Madera County, has charged one officer from our facility in Chowchilla — our women’s facility in Chowchilla — charged that officer with 90 counts of sexual assault against some 16 different incarcerated individuals. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the horrific part was that he did this sexual assault while these women were waiting to go before the parole board. So here you are. You’re prepping yourself. You know, this is the determination of whether you can go free or not. And this man is taking you into a room and assaulting you. I mean, it is beyond horrific. So the Women’s Caucus, we have gotten very involved in that. We did a trip to that prison. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So far, we don’t have a comprehensive set of things that we’re trying to enact to change the conditions, but we certainly have strengthened California’s Office of the Inspector General over our prisons, for the incarcerated individuals to get complaints of this sort of behavior to the inspector general rather than just to officials within the prison therein. Because, of course, when you’re in that kind of closed environment, you don’t know, is your complaint even going to be taken seriously? So those are some of the issues that having transparency, getting records, getting journalists into our prisons is going to help us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have, also in my reporting, talked to quite a few incarcerated women who, you know, experienced things themselves and also just experienced the brokenness of the grievance system. I think one of the, you know, very concerning patterns that we found in our reporting was just how many similar grievances we found piling up against a particular officer. So it was very easy to identify somebody who was repeatedly using very serious use of force and injuring people. And people were filing grievances on this person, but there was no upholding of it. There was no discipline. And a lot of that goes down to kind of the credibility issue that the incarcerated people filing the grievances didn’t have credibility, and it wasn’t captured on camera. And I think for some of the sexual assault instances, it’s been the same where it’s like piled up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Well, the the officer I mentioned with the 80 counts against him, his name is Rod- Rodriguez. You know, he took the women in a room. He knew the camera was not there. There was no camera in the room that he took them. And, you know, that was definitely purposefully done. And it was over a number of years, the assaults. And it’s hard to imagine that no one else knew. So the other thing that we have to make sure is that whatever reforms we put in not only go after the perpetrator, but anyone who aids or abets or… Aids or abets the perpetrator or sees it and does nothing about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And I think that is going to be the key, which is also, I think, a really tough nut to crack, you know, which is the issue of the code of silence, the culture of fear inside CDCR. And that that is not just the people who are incarcerated, that’s staff as well. You know, medical staff that I’ve spoken to, psychiatric staff and also correctional officers, and they fear blowing the whistle. They fear coming forward. And they say if they do, you know, they fear that they will be, you know, labeled a rat by their fellow officers and mistreated by them. And then that administrators also, they’ll kind of blacklist them and put them off to the side. It will be very kind of subtle and hard to see retaliation, but that retaliation that they know will come or that they say they know will come. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The terrible, terrible irony of this mistreatment — this, in some cases, brutal conditions — in our prison facilities against our incarcerated individuals. The damage is not just the incarcerated individual. Our corrections officers, they have high rates of suicide. They have their average life expectancy is they die before age 60. While they can retire with great retirement benefits at, I think, age 52 or so. They don’t even live past that. And so the level of stress when you’re in a setting like that, where either you are yourself engaged in this, you know, very inhumane conditions, inhumane treatment — or that you are, you know, going against your own moral self to observing it — it damages everyone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this is why I think Governor Newsom has adopted this Norway model. And a number of US legislators have taken trips. And I was one of them, who we’ve gone and seen the prisons in Norway and what they do instead and how they treat it. They look at their prison system as, “Yes, the individual committed a heinous act, however likely that individual at some point is going to go back home, is going to live in our community. So how do we use the time that we have them in custody to best bring them to a circumstance where they can be productive and healthy and contribute to their community instead of hurting it?” So I was very, very happy to see Governor Newsom embrace that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You brought up, you know, officer suicide, which was, you know, a really recurrent theme and and problem that we found in our reporting as well. And I think one thing that really shocked me was just how many suicides there were. You know, we found through talking to the correctional officers union, the CCPOA and other word of mouth sources that 31 officers died over a four year period by suicide between 2020 and 2024. And that was just a pretty staggering number and also not a complete number. And so I went to CDCR and asked them for their numbers, and they said, “We don’t track this.” And the fact that they said they don’t track this problem, which I feel is like the highest level red flag indicator of a mental health crisis in their employee base, I think is very problematic. I don’t know if you can comment on that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, they should track it, and I feel that CCPOA should also, because there’s often tension between the legislature and CCPOA, that’s the prison guards union. But I think if- the legislature in general, we don’t want unhealthy work conditions for anyone. And here this is one of our largest base of state workers. And the consequences of bad conditions on the job for them have great consequences, not only on them, as you’ve indicated with the suicides, but also just their, you know, their life expectancy rate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it also has bad consequences on the individuals who are in the prison. And while California hasn’t embraced completely Norway’s sense that, “Look, our role at prisons is not focused really on punishment, but it should be to prepare you to go home.” The reality is the majority of our people go home, too. In other words, the majority of people that we’re holding in a state prison eventually go home. So what good does it do if we send them home damaged? And what good does it do if the employees who are in charge of them in custody are also damaged? None of that is healthy. So it’s one thing I’ve done a lot is engaged with our CCPOA to, you know, really work with them together to kind of embrace, “Hey, we could do it differently and it could be much improved for you, the worker and for that individual who’s being held by us.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. I know I’ve taken up a lot of your time, and I just so appreciate it. And I wanted to know, is there anything else that I didn’t ask you about that you want to bring up today or talk about on the podcast? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I- this is my last year in the legislature, so I won’t get to, you know, add more police transparency, at least as a legislator for the moment. But I certainly, as chair of the Women’s Caucus, we have engaged more in these issues because I really hope that more of my colleagues that are going to continue in the legislature beyond me, will, will really embrace the importance of, that we have a good carceral system. And I know for some people that just putting those two words together is from their, their point of view, an oxymoron. But public safety is our objective. And having a inhumane system does not help public safety. And I think more of my women colleagues are understanding that. And we’re even- we’ve arranged a trip to Scotland, Northern Ireland and Ireland for some women legislators in September to visit their women’s carceral facilities and to see how they’re doing it differently in those countries, to see what lessons learned we can bring home to California. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much for your time, Senator. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. Thank you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you want to learn more about the Right to Know Act and other law enforcement transparency bills, we’ll include links in the episode description. Please continue to send tips or feedback about the series to onourwatch@kqed.org. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was hosted by me, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sukey Lewis\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is also KQED’s Director of podcasts. It was produced by Chris Egusa, final mixing by Christopher Beale. Original music by Ramtin Arablouei, including our theme song. Additional music from APM Music and Audio Network. Funding for On Our Watch is provided in part by Arnold Ventures and the California Endowment. Thank you to Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager; our Managing Editor of News and Enterprise, Otis R. Taylor Jr.; Ethan Toven-Lindsay, our Vice President of News; and KQED Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan. And thanks to all of you for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reporting on prisons from the outside is often difficult; it’s a closed and secretive world. But there is also important reporting being done by people who are inside prison, which comes with dangers of its own. Sukey and Julie sit down with two formerly incarcerated journalists, Rahsaan Thomas and Jesse Vasquez, to talk about the challenges and opportunities of prison reporting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC6919454101\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rahsaan Thomas is the Executive Director of \u003ca href=\"https://www.empowermentave.org/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Empowerment Avenue\u003c/a> and a producer at \u003ca href=\"https://www.earhustlesq.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Ear Hustle\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jesse Vasquez is the Executive Director of the \u003ca href=\"https://polleninitiative.org/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Pollen Initiative\u003c/a> and former Editor-in-Chief of the \u003ca href=\"https://sanquentinnews.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">San Quentin News\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mental health resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are currently in crisis, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAMHSA National Help Line\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://988lifeline.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/help\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) Helpline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.hhs.gov/programs/prevention-and-wellness/mental-health-substance-abuse/index.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">US Health and Human Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://warmline.org/warmdir.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warmline Directory\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism was a key partner in making Season 2 of On Our Watch.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The records obtained for this project are part of the\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> California Reporting Project\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a coalition of news organizations in California. If you have tips or feedback about this series please reach out to us at \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"mailto:onourwatch@kqed.org\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">onourwatch@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we start. Just wanted to give you a heads up that this episode references acts of violence. If you or someone you know needs support. We’ve got links to resources in the episode description. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi and welcome back to another bonus episode of On Our Watch I’m \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sukey Lewis\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Throughout reporting this season, my co-reporter \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie Small\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and I knocked on a lot of closed doors, pored over hundreds of pages of documents that were often redacted beyond recognition, and our best hope of contacting a source in prison was usually to send a letter via snail mail and hope they responded. In general, reporting on prisons can be really difficult, finding sources and navigating the politics of a closed world. But in recent years, there’s also been a revival of the prison journalism movement. Newspapers and podcasts created from inside that world by incarcerated reporters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Julie and I talk to two journalists who started their careers inside prison. Rahsaan “New York” Thomas, who consulted on this season of On Our Watch, is also a producer for the Ear Hustle podcast and started a nonprofit called Empowerment Avenue that supports incarcerated writers and artists. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> was editor in chief of the San Quentin News newspaper and now directs a nonprofit called the Pollen Initiative, which provides multimedia training to other people in California prisons. Here’s our conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you, everybody, for coming here today to the various places that we are joining, joining each other from. Rahsaan, how did you become a journalist? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I became a journalist by accident and half way because of a scam. I arrived in the San Quentin prison yard after working on this book for like, maybe seven, eight, almost ten years. And, but the book was mostly handwritten and there was no way to really edit it. Like when you want to edit it, you have to rewrite it or retype it and it’s like… And so I wanted to work for San Quentin News because they had computers and I wanted to type my book and set a computer so I can get somebody to help me edit it and hopefully publish it and get it on the New York Times bestseller list and change the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I went in there with that mindset. But I started fell in love with journalism. They made me the, sports reporter. And at first I was like, I want to write about bigger and better issues. Sports just seems so limited. But then I realized that. There was some social justice things happening, some really beautiful human interest things happening on the basketball court because it was uniting worlds that never meet normally, like billionaires and millionaires were playing basketball with kids from the streets of Los Angeles. And so something beautiful happening. And I fell in love with writing. And I found out at the same time that my book was horrible. Nobody ever deserves to see it. I need to rewrite it anyway. And but I got so caught up with journalism I never got to finish the book. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel you, I’m a I’m a failed novelist and poet. So journalism. Same save the universe from my creative writing as well. Jesse, what was your journey to journalism? How did you become involved in this world? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think my journey started with kind of like Rahsaan as an accident. I was more into daily journaling, and I was a pretty good writer in my academic, pursuits. Then I decided to transfer to San Quentin because I saw the San Quentin News join the Journalism Guild. And I fell in love with just telling people stories and meeting people in the yard and seeing what they were up to and making a difference in our community inside. I think journalism for me was what gave me purpose. In spite of the multiple life sentences that I was serving. It gave me an outlet to share people’s stories and make a difference while I was incarcerated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And now you’re an editor. Like, how how was that transition and what’s the difference in in your mind if there is one between the work that you did as a journalist and as an editor? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the huge difference is I have to think more in terms of management and structure, like it’s… Before it was just, you know, I want to tell impactful stories, powerful stories, you know, human interest stories. And then I realized that there’s, you know, a ripple effect to what we say, how we say it and to who we say it, depending on the platform that we’re using. And editing and overseeing the management of incarcerated produced content for, like an institutional publication like San Quentin News can be a bit tricky just because, you know, there’s certain things that we want to be mindful of when it comes to what we publish and produce. So it’s very it’s a very political position. I never understood that being an editor was very political, and you have to be very mindful of, you know, how you approach a subject, you know, not just because of the liabilities, you know, but also because we have a certain responsibility to the community that we represent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. The San Quentin News is such a unique publication. I myself am an alum of that program. When I was in graduate school at UC Berkeley Graduate School of Journalism, I got to go in with my professor, Bill Drummond, and work with some of the incarcerated journalists. And for me, you know, as a baby reporter myself, just figuring out the world of journalism, it was so inspiring to work with incarcerated reporters and also just to learn more about the this world of prison, prison reporting and criminal justice and kind of got me started heading down deeper and deeper into gaining expertise in the field and becoming a criminal justice reporter myself. What about you, Julie? Like what- what drew you to prison reporting in the first place? And, you know, is there a kind of seminal story for you about it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I, I like to say that it picked me. I didn’t pick prisons, picked prisons, picked me because my first day on the job in Sacramento was the day the then Governor Schwarzenegger declared a state of emergency in the prisons for overcrowding. The first major story I did was, you know, going into San Quentin, actually, with the federal receiver who’d been appointed by a federal judge to improve prison medical care because one person a day was dying inside our prisons because they couldn’t get access to care. There were like 200,000, almost 200,000 people incarcerated in California in 2006 for facilities designed for 80,000 people. And you can only imagine that’s going to compromise every aspect of life, especially medical care. So the Supreme Court ordered California to reduce the crowding. And that was sort of unprecedented, kind of order to get from the US Supreme Court. So it’s just been a part of my life following that, mostly, for over a decade. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or San for you, is there a story that you feel kind of most proud of reporting, or a moment where you feel like your journalism was kind of able to, you know, affect the broadest number of people or anything like that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s definitely a story I’m proud of, but I don’t feel it had the impact I wanted. I wrote a story for Wall City Magazine, which is a division of San Quentin News, about stopping gun violence, because I was watching TV one day and the senator was acting like he’s an expert on stopping gun violence because he talked to a gunshot victim. And based on talking to this gunshot victim, he came up with this or supported this idea of arming the teachers. And I’m sitting here thinking like, if you arm to teachers, that’s where the next guns are going to come from, you big dummy. And I just felt like, here I am in a prison with 2500 lifers running around with very little supervision at times, and it’s one of the safest places I had ever been up at that point in my life. And most of these guys that committed violence and we stopped it by therapy really, like putting restorative justice into place, not as a way to deal with harm, but as a as a way of life. So when harm is thinking about happening, this way of life is already in place to prevent it. Right. And just that therapy and being included in a community, being exclusioned, leaving people out of society, right, and rubbing in their face that you’re here but you’re not one of us. There’s all these different things that were happening in San Quentin, and I felt like were an answer to gun violence. And I wanted to get that out there. And so I did a lot of research and wrote this article I’m really proud of, and I think I’m the only that read it. Cuz we still get shot. Ah it’s sad. It’s sad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh I’m sorry. That that’s one of the most frustrating things is finding an audience for for your reporting. What about you, Jesse? Is there a story that you’re the most, you know, proud of writing or, you know, being an editor for getting getting in the paper? You know, despite obstacles?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I will clarify that. I did read Roseanne’s piece on gun violence. So it was two of us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At least two people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At least two of us read it. Well, there was probably one adviser who read it to to proofread it. So we did the best we could. There is one story that I think, I, I mean, I wrote and it was based on the victim compensation fund and the Department of Corrections. And I think the reason why I remember that story very vividly, because I had a couple guys on the prison yard actually come to me, right? And tell me, like, dude, like I didn’t know where my restitution money was going. I didn’t understand that there’s this victim compensation fund that is there, but the victims had to actually request it. You know, it’s not an automatic thing where, you know, like you’re paying into the restitution and a check is sent to the victims every, you know, month or every six months or whatever. It’s they have to keep their address up to date. They have to check that the money is there. They have to make sure that they tell the, you know, victim compensation board to make sure that they, you know, get their money. So I had a couple guys come to me and say, like, ‘You know what, I contacted my family to contact so-and-so to let them know, like, hey, there’s some money waiting for you because I’m getting charged for it. And I want to make sure that the victims get it. Instead of it being rolled into the general fund or whatever, you know that the state does.’ And I think the reason why I’m most proud of that story in particular, is because I’ve always wanted to at least make a difference in the small community that we were serving. And for me, that immediate context is the people that I was locked up with. And that’s why, like, you know, still to this day, I remember that one story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rahsaan, I was also wanting to ask you about the stories that you didn’t get to tell. Like, are there any stories that you wished you could tell, you know, while you were incarcerated but could not, because of, you know, the pressures or the censorship from others or just the limitations of the environment?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honestly, there’s stories that I wish were told, but I didn’t want to tell them. For instance, there were like prison officials and wardens that were like getting in legal troubles. And so it felt hypocritical that they weren’t being punished and they were responsible for holding us accountable. But at the same time, I’m not trying to do stories about, like, blood and crip stuff, right? Like I’m trying to do positive stories or story that’s going to make a difference in stories like, look what they’re doing, right? I wanted to do stories that like, ‘Look what we could be doing and be a better place.’ So I can’t say there’s any stories that I really held back on. There’s stories I haven’t finished yet. There’s stories I’m working on, but nothing’s stopping me with me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you know, Jesse, I have a slightly different question for you, which is just, you know, as an editor, has there ever been a time where, you know, CDCR leadership or, you know, the warden of San Quentin or now that you’ve spread to other, you know, places has, you know, shut down a story or killed a story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, there was a story, one in particular that was going to go into Wall City Magazine. And it was a great story about, you know, two people finding love inside of the carceral system. I don’t know if you remember this one Rahsaan, but it was going to go in Wall City Magazine, and it was a great story written by Joe Garcia. And the lead editor on that was Kate McQueen. And it was an awesome piece, maybe about 2500 words. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the reason why it became an issue was for safety concerns. You know, inside of the California prison system, you can imagine the amount of, you know, machismo and, let’s say gender bias and stuff that exists, and a lot of the violence that is perpetuated against trans and, you know, other communities that people consider other. So it was like the administration was like, ‘We can’t let you run that story. It’s going to jeopardize these individuals, you know, if they get transferred somewhere else. San Quentin is a more, let’s say, tolerant environment, a more accepting environment. But if they ever get transferred somewhere else, you’re jeopardizing their safety. And, you know, we can’t allow that.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that was one issue where I didn’t agree with the decision. But I also understood that it’s not my responsibility to worry about people’s safety. That’s the state responsibility. And they’re seeing it from a liability perspective that I wasn’t paying attention to. I was just looking at it as a good story. They were looking at it well, there’s liability, you know, and there’s implications. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I wanted to shift us into talking a little bit about some of the things that we ran into reporting this podcast, you know, this season of On Our Watch. Rahsaan, you were an editorial consultant for On Our Watch, and you gave feedback along the way about the series. And, you know, I always just really appreciated your input. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the things that you just kind of, I think brought home for me, in the editorial room was the kind of wildness of the situation with the murder of Luis Giovanny Aguilar. The fact that deadly force was not used, you know, in this unit and, you know, when this was transpiring. And you really wanted to, you know, help us get that across to listeners because we, you know, in our earlier drafts, we’re not doing so. Can you talk a little bit about that, like why that particular environment, why it was so kind of startling to you — who has a familiarity with the world inside prison — why the deadly force was not used as an option? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. The first thing you see, or one of the first things you notice that sounds really cold is the sign on the wall that says no warning shots, and they mean it. They don’t yell, you know, ‘Stop, break up the fight.’ They break up fights with gunfire. And so I know them to be really harsh with that weapon that Mini 14. I’ve been on the yard with people who have bullets in them from that Mini 14, and for it not to be used in that incident where the that might have been a viable way to stop somebody from getting killed? And they didn’t? It just spoke to me it like that was a setup. Like that was a huge clue to me that that’s not how that world works. I’ve actually seen the gun fired at San Quentin before, and this is like one guy had another guy in a headlock. No weapons were involved, but he just wouldn’t let him out of a headlock. And then, thank God, the officer fired into the ground. But he fired into the ground three times, right next to where the guy had the other guy in a headlock for a wrestling match, right? So I just don’t know a world where somebody’s gets stabbed to death and they don’t use that gun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And you talked about the kind of psychological impact of, like, living under that gun, like that, you know, that gun is in the control booth kind of looking over you all the time. And that really made an impact on me because I was kind of thinking about it more from the perspective of just like, ‘Oh, this is this person’s job is supposed to keep people safe.’ But there is just always this gun looking over you no matter what you’re doing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And I always felt like it’s supposed to protect you, but I always felt like because they have a bad habit of hitting people of color, not using them when your lives on the line, just, like, really selective. And even in a perfect world where they’re trying to do the right thing, it’s still a matter of aim and movement and just all these different factors. I rather take my chances with the ice pick. Y’all mind y’all business. I rather take my chances with the ice pick than that gun being over my head. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. Jesse, I also called you a number of times while working on this series because I just think of you as somebody who’s got really good advice about how to deal with tricky situations, ethical decisions, and, you know, just to make sure, like, do a gut check on myself about how I’m approaching certain things. And I know you have really strong feelings about this, but like, can you tell me, you know, what are your pet peeves? What are the pitfalls that you see reporters or news organizations falling prey to, you know, when they’re reporting on prisons and incarceration? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. It’s, I think it’s it’s personal to me just because, like, I know the folks inside, you know, and having been there for, you know, two decades, you get to learn people’s mannerisms and stuff and you have a different appreciation for life. So some of the things that I know, you know, when people report on the incarcerated or just on things that pertain to our living environment, there’s certain things that need to be said and told. Right? But they have repercussions for us as a population. It’s just like one thing, right? Like, for instance, they told the story about us getting, you know, Snickers bars and peanuts back in the days for Christmas. We used to get free Christmas packages, you know, that were paid for by the state. And a reporter happened to run the story and stuff like that. And it was great that the state was doing something for the incarcerated during Christmas time, you know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But unfortunately, when the story came out, there was so much backlash behind the state being “soft on crime” that they stopped that program. So it’s like, did you do this story as a human interest story or were you doing the story? Just because look at what taxpayer money is doing. Look at what they’re doing. They’re feeding these criminals and stuff. Right. So it’s the twist that they put on it. And sadly, you know, most of the stories that have come out of prison, you know, have been detrimental to the incarcerated, to our conditions. And everybody’s been speaking on our behalf, taking our quotes out of context. And it’s like, well, how come you just don’t let me tell the story, you know, how come you just don’t, like, report accurately what I’m trying to mention. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most reporters, they parachute into the prisons, they parachute in, get a story, run that story, and they tell you like, you know, number one is like, we want to protect people’s, you know, safety and well-being and stuff like that. That’s an illusion. That’s to appease your conscience. You can’t. You can’t guarantee anything. You know, once you take that story and run with it. Right. You can’t guarantee nobody’s safety. That’s number one. Number two, the idea of, you know, journalism doing no harm. It’s like nobody tells a story not intending to do harm. Sometimes we tell the story one and people to go to jail wanting things to change. Like that’s a reality. That’s harm. That’s going to happen to somebody’s family somewhere, somehow. You know, so when you take a story that a reporter publishes and then they don’t come back to talk to the person that they interviewed, when they don’t try to create community or relationships or stay engaged to make sure that nothing does happen to this person, like, that’s a disservice to that individual and to themselves as journalists, because now you’ve lost your credibility with the incarcerated because you told them you wanted this story to make a difference, but then you, like, let them down by just walking away after you got a Pulitzer or something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As part of Empowerment Avenue, we have help writers publish stories that are critical to CDCR and major platforms, and they have gotten flack for it. One writer in particular, he was put into a cell with a guy known for attacking people, and we feel it was on purpose. Like, you know, this guy’s attacking. You know, he keeps attacking people. He’s an old man with mental health issues. You know, this is going to happen. Sure enough, my boy got attacked. He didn’t fight back, though. He just did enough to, like, stop the attack. And they still put him in a hole even though he was the victim. Right. So we really feel like it was retaliatory. And in situations like that, your heart goes out and it’s a reminder that everybody’s not in San Quentin. Where the retaliat- I believe there’s retaliation as well, but it looks different. It doesn’t look like violence. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Was he was that person okay? Like what? What happened to them? Physically? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re fine. They survived it. Got hit in the head with a lock. So he survived it. And we’re trying to like right now sue to get the video footage to try to do something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie, I was going to ask you, was is there anything, you know, that you’ve noticed in your years of reporting about prisons, you know, blind spots that you see regularly in the media or, you know, things that you’ve learned over the years that have kind of informed the way you approach prison reporting? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I like what was said about people parachuting in. That happens a lot. I like to think that I didn’t parachute in, but, because I kept covering the stories. But I can see now that I, I relied too heavily on advocates and people on the outside. It was harder before to actually speak to people who are incarcerated. And the first experience of having good access was during Covid. And I was able to talk to people in San Quentin as things were happening. But that was relatively new and recorded on a decent line. And, so it’s it’s changed and there’s better access now, but, a lot of times people will just focus in on one issue. There’s so many systemic issues. It needs to be covered over a period of time. So you can see if anything’s changing, if anything’s coming out of your reporting. It’s nearly impossible because it’s such a closed system. And I didn’t really appreciate that until we did this podcast. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, and I was thinking about the things that are being measured throughout my career, you know, the medical care, mental health care, how many visits to the therapist, dental care. You know, those were tangible things that I could measure, and even use of force going up or use of force going down. But we actually aren’t told what’s going on inside the prisons, where if a crime occurs inside, it’s not a public record. There’s so much going on, and it’s really hard for us to gauge how how dangerous it is because it’s completely being withheld from us. And, this podcast was the first time I really got to talk to correctional officers who were open about it, and also realizing that there are- they’re also people on that side caught in this, you know, silence, this code of silence that you can’t break it. They don’t agree with it. They’re aware of the problems, but they go along. And so I guess. That’s a much harder story to get at. And it took two years for us to get it. That’s, you know, and that’s maybe why people don’t get at it. But, this is breaking through that silence. The only way is to find to talk to more people who are formerly incarcerated and more people who are currently incarcerated and former staff of any stripe, whether they’re officers or psych techs or whatever they are. It’s the only way we’re going to know, really, what’s going on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jesse, you know, two of the kind of main subjects of the series were these two correctional officers who became whistleblowers, who reported misconduct, you know, within the ISU, the investigative services unit that they worked. And I just wonder about your experience with that. Like, have you had experience with correctional officers who became whistleblowers, who are willing to talk to you for stories or willing to talk to reporters for the San Quentin News? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I’ve. I’ve gotten, I mean, I know some corrections officers, now. It’s interesting to say, you know, that we’re friends to some extent. You know, it’s it would be odd, you know, to say that they weren’t, though, just because the level of intimacy that we’ve developed over time, and I think that just came with, like, developing a relationship where there was like, care and concern for the individual as a person versus just as a source for a story. And even though some of the stories that they’ve shared. Right, they go back, you know, five years, ten years, 15 years. Right. We haven’t really pursued them in a formal way, in an official way. Like if I get a story, I’ll usually pawn it off on somebody else because it’s not what we actually do at San Quentin News, or it’s something that I know is going to jeopardize, you know, that individual’s job or his safety. And it’s a story that I believe that, it’s not going to necessarily influence policy. Right. Because one of the things, right, when I hear stories of corrections officers in the struggles that they go through, you know, they go through the same issues that we go through as a culture inside of the prison system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, Rahsaan, what was your experience, you know, as a journalist incarcerated, you know, trying to get people to talk, you know, trying to get people to break that code of silence or that taboo against, you know, quote unquote, snitching?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I had different experiences. Some I never broke it, some I did, but for the most part, I wasn’t asking people to snitch on anything. Right. I allow people to be comfortable talking about the story without editing. And then I would edit in a way that would be to tell a story, but be respectful to the to their lives, to their trust in me, their faith in me. Because I always tell people, ‘I’m not TMZ, right? I’m trying to tell a story to make a difference. Right? I’m not. I’m a solution based reporter. I’m not. I’m just telling the story for entertainment. I don’t care about clicks. I don’t care about ratings. I don’t care about none of that stuff.’ I just want to put some intelligence on our world and show people like how we can deal with things in a way that’s gonna be effective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so people trusted me with their stories because I wouldn’t put stuff out there that didn’t belong out there. That wasn’t necessary for the story. And if there was something edgy where we walking the line, I would talk about it with them and ask them did they feel comfortable? And they would have to make a grown person decision. Then when we started doing that, there were like OGs that would vouch for us. There were like there were people in the community be like, ‘Nah.’ Then an OG be like, ‘Yo, they good, I good bro. Like, you can talk to them.’ And they would get the green light to do the interview. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s really amazing. Another like really big hurdle that we dealt with and also that incarcerated people face, not just in the world of journalism, but overall is this perceived lack of credibility. And we saw this over and over again, you know, incarcerated people who had reported officers for using excessive force. But if the use of force happened in a place where there were no cameras, if there was no other tangible evidence to back up their story, it was not their story did not prevail. Jesse, can you talk a little bit about how you deal with these issues of credibility as an editor and how you advise journalists that you work with to think about these issues and help them get, you know, accountability or get justice through reporting? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. It’s, very tricky. Just because there’s, a couple of things, right, that I learned when I first went into the system before I became a journalist. Right. That have carried over into how we set editorial, reporting expectations. You know, it’s like you can go to an interview, hear a story from somebody, and then if it’s an allegation of misconduct or something like that, then we ask for like, documentation, paperwork, you know, appointment dockets. We ask for corroborating evidence, you know, like maybe a witness or two. Right. Somebody that was there and stuff like that. But the other thing that we also tell our reporters is the people that they’re interviewing, like if there isn’t documentation yet, had them document it now and start lodging those, you know, grievance forms like a 602, right. Start writing the ombudsman, start sending something to the attorney general and stuff like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then that way our story isn’t just, you know, he said she said, because that also protects us. Like, I want to make sure that above all else, right, that we continue to have some institutional credibility as a publication that at least tries to fact check and, you know, try to advise the people that were interviewing to do what’s right. Because the main thing that I realize about, the outside world and how they look at prison journalism, the way that we do it, is they think that it’s always advocacy journalism. And it’s not always that, you know, but they think because it’s prison journalists producing journalism, that it has to be advocacy because we’re talking against a system. And sometimes I think what we’re actually doing is just, you know, as they say, historically, journalism happens to be the first rough draft of human history. And I think that’s what we’re doing, just chronicling, you know, what’s happening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What about you, Rahsaan? Is there, like any difference in the way that you think about credibility in, in prison or in talking to incarcerated sources versus just, you know, any source that you might talk to for a story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, I start out with talking with anyone as if they’re telling the truth, unless my instincts or they give me a reason not to believe them, or they make a claim that the world might not believe. And like Jesse said, you need proof to back it up. Not for me, but because if we’re going to print, it could be a lawsuit. Whatever I need to be able to back this up, it needs to be a fact, right? I think one of my greatest problems or greatest issues I ran into was being a freelancer. When it came to quoting incarcerated people in the yard. There were organizations that wanted like, it was just hard for them to accept a quote from an incarcerated person. They wanted, like notes and verification and just all this extra layers. But yet they’ll take a CDCR quote and run with it. Just don’t even fact check nothing, just run with it, put out propaganda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I just felt like what makes their work better than ours? Or what as a journalist like, why would you devalue- is it me? Because like, you know, we have people on NBC that was known liars, like all kinds of journalists, on major platforms. So it’s not where you at, you know, that determines your level of integrity. And so I felt like I was almost being censored by my colleagues because you’re putting a higher standard on who’s quotable or who’s reliable. When I’m telling you I’m living right here. And I see this person’s daily walk every day. They’re reliable, right? They have a reliable track record. Right. And so who are you doubting, me? Them? Both? And what are you using to weigh credibility? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie, I know you have spent many years covering prisons, a lot of years talking to public information officers and public affairs officers for CDCR. A lot of years, you know, trying to break through the wall of bureaucracy and official speak to get real answers on things that are incredibly important, you know, both for people who are incarcerated and for people who are not incarcerated, who pay for this incredibly expensive system that we all own here in California. You know, what are your, you know, tips, and, and how to do that or if not tips, what are your frustrations with trying to do that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I, I’m going to be a little negative here. I don’t think you’ll ever get a specific answer to a specific question unless it’s innocuous or makes them look good. I think the way to deal with it is to get your information and to dig deep and have your facts. And like we did in the podcast, like, say, ‘This, this and this happened, what’s your response?’ So that it’s like you’re giving them enough rope. They are saying something ludicrous in response to evidence that you’re presenting in your story. So I think it’s like going every other place to get the information, stacking it up and presenting it and then saying, ‘Okay, now try to deny all this.’ And then let them, let them deny it. And they it just exposes them as for what they are, just not telling the truth. Not not being forthright. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what’s been your experience like, Jesse? I mean, I know, like when you were incarcerated, you would have to, you know, try and get response from CDCR and now, you know, as you know, kind of a publisher, like helping other journalists who are incarcerated, you know, how do you kind of bring accountability questions to, you know, CDC, our public affairs, and what are the kinds of answers you get? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s pretty interesting because the whole profession of being a public information officer, right? It’s a lot of damage control. You know, it’s a lot of damage control. It’s a lot of, you know, trying to salvage an image, you know, and I think, again, like I always preface what I say with, I try to give people a lot of grace because I understand as individuals you’re put in between a rock and a hard spot, right? When this is your job, this is what you get paid for. This is what you’re supposed to do, right? Ethically and morally, you may not agree with it, right? And you may have questions. But, you know, at the end of the day, you have to protect your institution from liability, you know? So I’m very mindful of that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, when I talk to our reporters and everybody that we’re training to be reporters inside the carceral system, it’s like, don’t expect people to validate the truth that you know. You know, like, just know that there’s going to be some version that’s going to come out that may not be the actual truth, you know, but you have to find a way to tell that story anyway. And then we have to be able to, not just bring them accountability, but also bring enough awareness and notoriety to the issue that it’s going to make a difference. Right? Because it can’t just come from one person and one source. And I think that’s been the thing that has helped us. Right? It’s not just about like the incarcerated. So our editor in chief wants to know this, you know, do you have an answer for him? It’s like, well, our editor in chief, you know, these two other publications and these five organizations, you know, are interested in what’s happening here. And all of a sudden it’s like, oh, you got more people involved and stuff, right? So it’s like there’s more eyeballs. There’s more accountability, right? Having more like institutions that produce journalism be involved with prison journalists is essential if we’re going to hold the systems accountable. Right. Because I think at the end of the day, most people want accountability and transparency, right? But it’s scary to go through that change. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, Rahsaan, I know we’ve talked in the past before about like, the frustrations that you have about the kinds of stories you feel like you’re allowed to tell, or people want you to tell. Can you speak to that a little bit about just, you know, the limitations that people of the journalism people allow you? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It goes back to credibility again. Right? For whatever reason, they don’t respect incarcerated people as real journalists, even though we are behind enemy lines, so to speak, and speaking from the belly of the beast, which is a tough. But certain organizations limit you to opinion pieces. Right. And so I try to be positive about that. Like we do enough opinion pieces and they’ll respect, like, we’ll build a relationship and then they’ll respect us. And then a guy will end up, you know, doing a feature piece, doing an actual reported piece. And, you know, here and there that works out, but some of us are still stuck, and some of these organizations still got it stuck in opinion piece mode. And I just think we’re so much better than that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I know that sometimes somebody might take offense that they’ve been to journalism school and got this degree and spent all this money and here comes somebody who just bootleg trained off the yard in the Journalism Guild, and they’re able to earn a living from prison or take up space in that paper that maybe these journalists feel like that belongs to me and my degree. But I think that if you want a better society, you have to get the whole story. Then we’ll be doing what we supposed to do as journalists, which I believe is a- to foster democracy, a world that’s inclusive, a world that’s better, a world that works for all of us. But if we only featuring one side of the story and we limit ourselves to this crap. This clickbait. We get what we we going to keep getting what we’ve been getting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I do want to say that I think things are getting somewhat better. Empowerment Avenue launched during Covid when reporters couldn’t get the story except having direct access to us. And so we controlled the narrative and we were able to put stories out. But COVID’s gone and the demand for incarcerated voices has gone up. And now guys have actual journalism jobs as like editors and reporters from prison and making decent salaries. So I think the world is changing. But there’s still some organizations that don’t have incarcerated voices connected. They haven’t built that community. They don’t know where the experts are. So there’s still more work to be done. But because that the demand for our voices has grown, and formerly incarcerated people keep winning Pulitzer Prizes. So I’m super proud. Like the world wants to hear our side of the story, they tired of the same old law and order crap, right? And so I’m really going into the future hopeful, but yet still speaking loudly about all the flaws that we need to fix so we can hurry up and fix them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And I think I’ll just add that what made prison journalism a force to be reckoned with in the 1800s early 1900s, up until 1991, when we had, you know 300 newspapers inside of prisons, it was community engagement, you know, like deep engagement, you know, with the prison system and, you know, just paying attention to those stories and holding the system accountable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The other thing, too, like a lot of times we think that change in policy is going to change the world. And it doesn’t. You know, you can’t legislate how people feel about each other. You can’t tell me I gotta like somebody. You have to create a culture and an environment and a space where I want to help, where I want to care, where I want to be involved. Right. And I think creating spaces like this prison journalism movement that we have going on, like we’re actually trying to develop more civic engagement because people who are civically engaged care about their communities, and their communities start caring about them. So and I think that’s going to be at the core of how we create a cultural change that’s going to, you know, supersede policy, you know, by maybe five, ten years. So be mindful that, you know, like how you report on people, shows what you care for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you, Jessie and Roseanne and Julie for having this great conversation about journalism. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bye. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you. I appreciate being here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Thanks for having us as colleagues on here. It’s great. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have links to Jesse and Rahsaan’s work in our episode description, as well as other resources to support prison journalism. Please continue to send tips or feedback about the series to onourwatch@KQED.org. This episode was hosted by me, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sukey Lewis\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is also KQED’s Director of Podcasts. It was produced by Chris Egusa. Final mixing by Brendan Willard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Original music by Ramtin Arablouei, including our theme song. Additional music from APM Music and Audio Network. Funding for On Our Watch is provided in part by Arnold Ventures and the California Endowment. Thank you to Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager, our managing Editor of News and Enterprise, Otis R. Taylor Jr., Ethan Toven-Lindsay, our Vice President of News and KQED Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan. And thanks to all of you for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reporting on prisons from the outside is often difficult; it’s a closed and secretive world. But there is also important reporting being done by people who are inside prison, which comes with dangers of its own. Sukey and Julie sit down with two formerly incarcerated journalists, Rahsaan Thomas and Jesse Vasquez, to talk about the challenges and opportunities of prison reporting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC6919454101\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rahsaan Thomas is the Executive Director of \u003ca href=\"https://www.empowermentave.org/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Empowerment Avenue\u003c/a> and a producer at \u003ca href=\"https://www.earhustlesq.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Ear Hustle\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jesse Vasquez is the Executive Director of the \u003ca href=\"https://polleninitiative.org/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Pollen Initiative\u003c/a> and former Editor-in-Chief of the \u003ca href=\"https://sanquentinnews.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">San Quentin News\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mental health resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are currently in crisis, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAMHSA National Help Line\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://988lifeline.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/help\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) Helpline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.hhs.gov/programs/prevention-and-wellness/mental-health-substance-abuse/index.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">US Health and Human Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://warmline.org/warmdir.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warmline Directory\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism was a key partner in making Season 2 of On Our Watch.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The records obtained for this project are part of the\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> California Reporting Project\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a coalition of news organizations in California. If you have tips or feedback about this series please reach out to us at \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"mailto:onourwatch@kqed.org\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">onourwatch@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we start. Just wanted to give you a heads up that this episode references acts of violence. If you or someone you know needs support. We’ve got links to resources in the episode description. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi and welcome back to another bonus episode of On Our Watch I’m \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sukey Lewis\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Throughout reporting this season, my co-reporter \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie Small\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and I knocked on a lot of closed doors, pored over hundreds of pages of documents that were often redacted beyond recognition, and our best hope of contacting a source in prison was usually to send a letter via snail mail and hope they responded. In general, reporting on prisons can be really difficult, finding sources and navigating the politics of a closed world. But in recent years, there’s also been a revival of the prison journalism movement. Newspapers and podcasts created from inside that world by incarcerated reporters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Julie and I talk to two journalists who started their careers inside prison. Rahsaan “New York” Thomas, who consulted on this season of On Our Watch, is also a producer for the Ear Hustle podcast and started a nonprofit called Empowerment Avenue that supports incarcerated writers and artists. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> was editor in chief of the San Quentin News newspaper and now directs a nonprofit called the Pollen Initiative, which provides multimedia training to other people in California prisons. Here’s our conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you, everybody, for coming here today to the various places that we are joining, joining each other from. Rahsaan, how did you become a journalist? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I became a journalist by accident and half way because of a scam. I arrived in the San Quentin prison yard after working on this book for like, maybe seven, eight, almost ten years. And, but the book was mostly handwritten and there was no way to really edit it. Like when you want to edit it, you have to rewrite it or retype it and it’s like… And so I wanted to work for San Quentin News because they had computers and I wanted to type my book and set a computer so I can get somebody to help me edit it and hopefully publish it and get it on the New York Times bestseller list and change the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I went in there with that mindset. But I started fell in love with journalism. They made me the, sports reporter. And at first I was like, I want to write about bigger and better issues. Sports just seems so limited. But then I realized that. There was some social justice things happening, some really beautiful human interest things happening on the basketball court because it was uniting worlds that never meet normally, like billionaires and millionaires were playing basketball with kids from the streets of Los Angeles. And so something beautiful happening. And I fell in love with writing. And I found out at the same time that my book was horrible. Nobody ever deserves to see it. I need to rewrite it anyway. And but I got so caught up with journalism I never got to finish the book. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel you, I’m a I’m a failed novelist and poet. So journalism. Same save the universe from my creative writing as well. Jesse, what was your journey to journalism? How did you become involved in this world? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think my journey started with kind of like Rahsaan as an accident. I was more into daily journaling, and I was a pretty good writer in my academic, pursuits. Then I decided to transfer to San Quentin because I saw the San Quentin News join the Journalism Guild. And I fell in love with just telling people stories and meeting people in the yard and seeing what they were up to and making a difference in our community inside. I think journalism for me was what gave me purpose. In spite of the multiple life sentences that I was serving. It gave me an outlet to share people’s stories and make a difference while I was incarcerated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And now you’re an editor. Like, how how was that transition and what’s the difference in in your mind if there is one between the work that you did as a journalist and as an editor? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the huge difference is I have to think more in terms of management and structure, like it’s… Before it was just, you know, I want to tell impactful stories, powerful stories, you know, human interest stories. And then I realized that there’s, you know, a ripple effect to what we say, how we say it and to who we say it, depending on the platform that we’re using. And editing and overseeing the management of incarcerated produced content for, like an institutional publication like San Quentin News can be a bit tricky just because, you know, there’s certain things that we want to be mindful of when it comes to what we publish and produce. So it’s very it’s a very political position. I never understood that being an editor was very political, and you have to be very mindful of, you know, how you approach a subject, you know, not just because of the liabilities, you know, but also because we have a certain responsibility to the community that we represent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. The San Quentin News is such a unique publication. I myself am an alum of that program. When I was in graduate school at UC Berkeley Graduate School of Journalism, I got to go in with my professor, Bill Drummond, and work with some of the incarcerated journalists. And for me, you know, as a baby reporter myself, just figuring out the world of journalism, it was so inspiring to work with incarcerated reporters and also just to learn more about the this world of prison, prison reporting and criminal justice and kind of got me started heading down deeper and deeper into gaining expertise in the field and becoming a criminal justice reporter myself. What about you, Julie? Like what- what drew you to prison reporting in the first place? And, you know, is there a kind of seminal story for you about it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I, I like to say that it picked me. I didn’t pick prisons, picked prisons, picked me because my first day on the job in Sacramento was the day the then Governor Schwarzenegger declared a state of emergency in the prisons for overcrowding. The first major story I did was, you know, going into San Quentin, actually, with the federal receiver who’d been appointed by a federal judge to improve prison medical care because one person a day was dying inside our prisons because they couldn’t get access to care. There were like 200,000, almost 200,000 people incarcerated in California in 2006 for facilities designed for 80,000 people. And you can only imagine that’s going to compromise every aspect of life, especially medical care. So the Supreme Court ordered California to reduce the crowding. And that was sort of unprecedented, kind of order to get from the US Supreme Court. So it’s just been a part of my life following that, mostly, for over a decade. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or San for you, is there a story that you feel kind of most proud of reporting, or a moment where you feel like your journalism was kind of able to, you know, affect the broadest number of people or anything like that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s definitely a story I’m proud of, but I don’t feel it had the impact I wanted. I wrote a story for Wall City Magazine, which is a division of San Quentin News, about stopping gun violence, because I was watching TV one day and the senator was acting like he’s an expert on stopping gun violence because he talked to a gunshot victim. And based on talking to this gunshot victim, he came up with this or supported this idea of arming the teachers. And I’m sitting here thinking like, if you arm to teachers, that’s where the next guns are going to come from, you big dummy. And I just felt like, here I am in a prison with 2500 lifers running around with very little supervision at times, and it’s one of the safest places I had ever been up at that point in my life. And most of these guys that committed violence and we stopped it by therapy really, like putting restorative justice into place, not as a way to deal with harm, but as a as a way of life. So when harm is thinking about happening, this way of life is already in place to prevent it. Right. And just that therapy and being included in a community, being exclusioned, leaving people out of society, right, and rubbing in their face that you’re here but you’re not one of us. There’s all these different things that were happening in San Quentin, and I felt like were an answer to gun violence. And I wanted to get that out there. And so I did a lot of research and wrote this article I’m really proud of, and I think I’m the only that read it. Cuz we still get shot. Ah it’s sad. It’s sad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh I’m sorry. That that’s one of the most frustrating things is finding an audience for for your reporting. What about you, Jesse? Is there a story that you’re the most, you know, proud of writing or, you know, being an editor for getting getting in the paper? You know, despite obstacles?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I will clarify that. I did read Roseanne’s piece on gun violence. So it was two of us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At least two people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At least two of us read it. Well, there was probably one adviser who read it to to proofread it. So we did the best we could. There is one story that I think, I, I mean, I wrote and it was based on the victim compensation fund and the Department of Corrections. And I think the reason why I remember that story very vividly, because I had a couple guys on the prison yard actually come to me, right? And tell me, like, dude, like I didn’t know where my restitution money was going. I didn’t understand that there’s this victim compensation fund that is there, but the victims had to actually request it. You know, it’s not an automatic thing where, you know, like you’re paying into the restitution and a check is sent to the victims every, you know, month or every six months or whatever. It’s they have to keep their address up to date. They have to check that the money is there. They have to make sure that they tell the, you know, victim compensation board to make sure that they, you know, get their money. So I had a couple guys come to me and say, like, ‘You know what, I contacted my family to contact so-and-so to let them know, like, hey, there’s some money waiting for you because I’m getting charged for it. And I want to make sure that the victims get it. Instead of it being rolled into the general fund or whatever, you know that the state does.’ And I think the reason why I’m most proud of that story in particular, is because I’ve always wanted to at least make a difference in the small community that we were serving. And for me, that immediate context is the people that I was locked up with. And that’s why, like, you know, still to this day, I remember that one story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rahsaan, I was also wanting to ask you about the stories that you didn’t get to tell. Like, are there any stories that you wished you could tell, you know, while you were incarcerated but could not, because of, you know, the pressures or the censorship from others or just the limitations of the environment?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honestly, there’s stories that I wish were told, but I didn’t want to tell them. For instance, there were like prison officials and wardens that were like getting in legal troubles. And so it felt hypocritical that they weren’t being punished and they were responsible for holding us accountable. But at the same time, I’m not trying to do stories about, like, blood and crip stuff, right? Like I’m trying to do positive stories or story that’s going to make a difference in stories like, look what they’re doing, right? I wanted to do stories that like, ‘Look what we could be doing and be a better place.’ So I can’t say there’s any stories that I really held back on. There’s stories I haven’t finished yet. There’s stories I’m working on, but nothing’s stopping me with me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you know, Jesse, I have a slightly different question for you, which is just, you know, as an editor, has there ever been a time where, you know, CDCR leadership or, you know, the warden of San Quentin or now that you’ve spread to other, you know, places has, you know, shut down a story or killed a story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, there was a story, one in particular that was going to go into Wall City Magazine. And it was a great story about, you know, two people finding love inside of the carceral system. I don’t know if you remember this one Rahsaan, but it was going to go in Wall City Magazine, and it was a great story written by Joe Garcia. And the lead editor on that was Kate McQueen. And it was an awesome piece, maybe about 2500 words. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the reason why it became an issue was for safety concerns. You know, inside of the California prison system, you can imagine the amount of, you know, machismo and, let’s say gender bias and stuff that exists, and a lot of the violence that is perpetuated against trans and, you know, other communities that people consider other. So it was like the administration was like, ‘We can’t let you run that story. It’s going to jeopardize these individuals, you know, if they get transferred somewhere else. San Quentin is a more, let’s say, tolerant environment, a more accepting environment. But if they ever get transferred somewhere else, you’re jeopardizing their safety. And, you know, we can’t allow that.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that was one issue where I didn’t agree with the decision. But I also understood that it’s not my responsibility to worry about people’s safety. That’s the state responsibility. And they’re seeing it from a liability perspective that I wasn’t paying attention to. I was just looking at it as a good story. They were looking at it well, there’s liability, you know, and there’s implications. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I wanted to shift us into talking a little bit about some of the things that we ran into reporting this podcast, you know, this season of On Our Watch. Rahsaan, you were an editorial consultant for On Our Watch, and you gave feedback along the way about the series. And, you know, I always just really appreciated your input. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the things that you just kind of, I think brought home for me, in the editorial room was the kind of wildness of the situation with the murder of Luis Giovanny Aguilar. The fact that deadly force was not used, you know, in this unit and, you know, when this was transpiring. And you really wanted to, you know, help us get that across to listeners because we, you know, in our earlier drafts, we’re not doing so. Can you talk a little bit about that, like why that particular environment, why it was so kind of startling to you — who has a familiarity with the world inside prison — why the deadly force was not used as an option? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. The first thing you see, or one of the first things you notice that sounds really cold is the sign on the wall that says no warning shots, and they mean it. They don’t yell, you know, ‘Stop, break up the fight.’ They break up fights with gunfire. And so I know them to be really harsh with that weapon that Mini 14. I’ve been on the yard with people who have bullets in them from that Mini 14, and for it not to be used in that incident where the that might have been a viable way to stop somebody from getting killed? And they didn’t? It just spoke to me it like that was a setup. Like that was a huge clue to me that that’s not how that world works. I’ve actually seen the gun fired at San Quentin before, and this is like one guy had another guy in a headlock. No weapons were involved, but he just wouldn’t let him out of a headlock. And then, thank God, the officer fired into the ground. But he fired into the ground three times, right next to where the guy had the other guy in a headlock for a wrestling match, right? So I just don’t know a world where somebody’s gets stabbed to death and they don’t use that gun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And you talked about the kind of psychological impact of, like, living under that gun, like that, you know, that gun is in the control booth kind of looking over you all the time. And that really made an impact on me because I was kind of thinking about it more from the perspective of just like, ‘Oh, this is this person’s job is supposed to keep people safe.’ But there is just always this gun looking over you no matter what you’re doing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And I always felt like it’s supposed to protect you, but I always felt like because they have a bad habit of hitting people of color, not using them when your lives on the line, just, like, really selective. And even in a perfect world where they’re trying to do the right thing, it’s still a matter of aim and movement and just all these different factors. I rather take my chances with the ice pick. Y’all mind y’all business. I rather take my chances with the ice pick than that gun being over my head. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. Jesse, I also called you a number of times while working on this series because I just think of you as somebody who’s got really good advice about how to deal with tricky situations, ethical decisions, and, you know, just to make sure, like, do a gut check on myself about how I’m approaching certain things. And I know you have really strong feelings about this, but like, can you tell me, you know, what are your pet peeves? What are the pitfalls that you see reporters or news organizations falling prey to, you know, when they’re reporting on prisons and incarceration? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. It’s, I think it’s it’s personal to me just because, like, I know the folks inside, you know, and having been there for, you know, two decades, you get to learn people’s mannerisms and stuff and you have a different appreciation for life. So some of the things that I know, you know, when people report on the incarcerated or just on things that pertain to our living environment, there’s certain things that need to be said and told. Right? But they have repercussions for us as a population. It’s just like one thing, right? Like, for instance, they told the story about us getting, you know, Snickers bars and peanuts back in the days for Christmas. We used to get free Christmas packages, you know, that were paid for by the state. And a reporter happened to run the story and stuff like that. And it was great that the state was doing something for the incarcerated during Christmas time, you know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But unfortunately, when the story came out, there was so much backlash behind the state being “soft on crime” that they stopped that program. So it’s like, did you do this story as a human interest story or were you doing the story? Just because look at what taxpayer money is doing. Look at what they’re doing. They’re feeding these criminals and stuff. Right. So it’s the twist that they put on it. And sadly, you know, most of the stories that have come out of prison, you know, have been detrimental to the incarcerated, to our conditions. And everybody’s been speaking on our behalf, taking our quotes out of context. And it’s like, well, how come you just don’t let me tell the story, you know, how come you just don’t, like, report accurately what I’m trying to mention. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most reporters, they parachute into the prisons, they parachute in, get a story, run that story, and they tell you like, you know, number one is like, we want to protect people’s, you know, safety and well-being and stuff like that. That’s an illusion. That’s to appease your conscience. You can’t. You can’t guarantee anything. You know, once you take that story and run with it. Right. You can’t guarantee nobody’s safety. That’s number one. Number two, the idea of, you know, journalism doing no harm. It’s like nobody tells a story not intending to do harm. Sometimes we tell the story one and people to go to jail wanting things to change. Like that’s a reality. That’s harm. That’s going to happen to somebody’s family somewhere, somehow. You know, so when you take a story that a reporter publishes and then they don’t come back to talk to the person that they interviewed, when they don’t try to create community or relationships or stay engaged to make sure that nothing does happen to this person, like, that’s a disservice to that individual and to themselves as journalists, because now you’ve lost your credibility with the incarcerated because you told them you wanted this story to make a difference, but then you, like, let them down by just walking away after you got a Pulitzer or something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As part of Empowerment Avenue, we have help writers publish stories that are critical to CDCR and major platforms, and they have gotten flack for it. One writer in particular, he was put into a cell with a guy known for attacking people, and we feel it was on purpose. Like, you know, this guy’s attacking. You know, he keeps attacking people. He’s an old man with mental health issues. You know, this is going to happen. Sure enough, my boy got attacked. He didn’t fight back, though. He just did enough to, like, stop the attack. And they still put him in a hole even though he was the victim. Right. So we really feel like it was retaliatory. And in situations like that, your heart goes out and it’s a reminder that everybody’s not in San Quentin. Where the retaliat- I believe there’s retaliation as well, but it looks different. It doesn’t look like violence. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Was he was that person okay? Like what? What happened to them? Physically? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re fine. They survived it. Got hit in the head with a lock. So he survived it. And we’re trying to like right now sue to get the video footage to try to do something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie, I was going to ask you, was is there anything, you know, that you’ve noticed in your years of reporting about prisons, you know, blind spots that you see regularly in the media or, you know, things that you’ve learned over the years that have kind of informed the way you approach prison reporting? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I like what was said about people parachuting in. That happens a lot. I like to think that I didn’t parachute in, but, because I kept covering the stories. But I can see now that I, I relied too heavily on advocates and people on the outside. It was harder before to actually speak to people who are incarcerated. And the first experience of having good access was during Covid. And I was able to talk to people in San Quentin as things were happening. But that was relatively new and recorded on a decent line. And, so it’s it’s changed and there’s better access now, but, a lot of times people will just focus in on one issue. There’s so many systemic issues. It needs to be covered over a period of time. So you can see if anything’s changing, if anything’s coming out of your reporting. It’s nearly impossible because it’s such a closed system. And I didn’t really appreciate that until we did this podcast. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, and I was thinking about the things that are being measured throughout my career, you know, the medical care, mental health care, how many visits to the therapist, dental care. You know, those were tangible things that I could measure, and even use of force going up or use of force going down. But we actually aren’t told what’s going on inside the prisons, where if a crime occurs inside, it’s not a public record. There’s so much going on, and it’s really hard for us to gauge how how dangerous it is because it’s completely being withheld from us. And, this podcast was the first time I really got to talk to correctional officers who were open about it, and also realizing that there are- they’re also people on that side caught in this, you know, silence, this code of silence that you can’t break it. They don’t agree with it. They’re aware of the problems, but they go along. And so I guess. That’s a much harder story to get at. And it took two years for us to get it. That’s, you know, and that’s maybe why people don’t get at it. But, this is breaking through that silence. The only way is to find to talk to more people who are formerly incarcerated and more people who are currently incarcerated and former staff of any stripe, whether they’re officers or psych techs or whatever they are. It’s the only way we’re going to know, really, what’s going on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jesse, you know, two of the kind of main subjects of the series were these two correctional officers who became whistleblowers, who reported misconduct, you know, within the ISU, the investigative services unit that they worked. And I just wonder about your experience with that. Like, have you had experience with correctional officers who became whistleblowers, who are willing to talk to you for stories or willing to talk to reporters for the San Quentin News? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I’ve. I’ve gotten, I mean, I know some corrections officers, now. It’s interesting to say, you know, that we’re friends to some extent. You know, it’s it would be odd, you know, to say that they weren’t, though, just because the level of intimacy that we’ve developed over time, and I think that just came with, like, developing a relationship where there was like, care and concern for the individual as a person versus just as a source for a story. And even though some of the stories that they’ve shared. Right, they go back, you know, five years, ten years, 15 years. Right. We haven’t really pursued them in a formal way, in an official way. Like if I get a story, I’ll usually pawn it off on somebody else because it’s not what we actually do at San Quentin News, or it’s something that I know is going to jeopardize, you know, that individual’s job or his safety. And it’s a story that I believe that, it’s not going to necessarily influence policy. Right. Because one of the things, right, when I hear stories of corrections officers in the struggles that they go through, you know, they go through the same issues that we go through as a culture inside of the prison system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, Rahsaan, what was your experience, you know, as a journalist incarcerated, you know, trying to get people to talk, you know, trying to get people to break that code of silence or that taboo against, you know, quote unquote, snitching?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I had different experiences. Some I never broke it, some I did, but for the most part, I wasn’t asking people to snitch on anything. Right. I allow people to be comfortable talking about the story without editing. And then I would edit in a way that would be to tell a story, but be respectful to the to their lives, to their trust in me, their faith in me. Because I always tell people, ‘I’m not TMZ, right? I’m trying to tell a story to make a difference. Right? I’m not. I’m a solution based reporter. I’m not. I’m just telling the story for entertainment. I don’t care about clicks. I don’t care about ratings. I don’t care about none of that stuff.’ I just want to put some intelligence on our world and show people like how we can deal with things in a way that’s gonna be effective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so people trusted me with their stories because I wouldn’t put stuff out there that didn’t belong out there. That wasn’t necessary for the story. And if there was something edgy where we walking the line, I would talk about it with them and ask them did they feel comfortable? And they would have to make a grown person decision. Then when we started doing that, there were like OGs that would vouch for us. There were like there were people in the community be like, ‘Nah.’ Then an OG be like, ‘Yo, they good, I good bro. Like, you can talk to them.’ And they would get the green light to do the interview. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s really amazing. Another like really big hurdle that we dealt with and also that incarcerated people face, not just in the world of journalism, but overall is this perceived lack of credibility. And we saw this over and over again, you know, incarcerated people who had reported officers for using excessive force. But if the use of force happened in a place where there were no cameras, if there was no other tangible evidence to back up their story, it was not their story did not prevail. Jesse, can you talk a little bit about how you deal with these issues of credibility as an editor and how you advise journalists that you work with to think about these issues and help them get, you know, accountability or get justice through reporting? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. It’s, very tricky. Just because there’s, a couple of things, right, that I learned when I first went into the system before I became a journalist. Right. That have carried over into how we set editorial, reporting expectations. You know, it’s like you can go to an interview, hear a story from somebody, and then if it’s an allegation of misconduct or something like that, then we ask for like, documentation, paperwork, you know, appointment dockets. We ask for corroborating evidence, you know, like maybe a witness or two. Right. Somebody that was there and stuff like that. But the other thing that we also tell our reporters is the people that they’re interviewing, like if there isn’t documentation yet, had them document it now and start lodging those, you know, grievance forms like a 602, right. Start writing the ombudsman, start sending something to the attorney general and stuff like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then that way our story isn’t just, you know, he said she said, because that also protects us. Like, I want to make sure that above all else, right, that we continue to have some institutional credibility as a publication that at least tries to fact check and, you know, try to advise the people that were interviewing to do what’s right. Because the main thing that I realize about, the outside world and how they look at prison journalism, the way that we do it, is they think that it’s always advocacy journalism. And it’s not always that, you know, but they think because it’s prison journalists producing journalism, that it has to be advocacy because we’re talking against a system. And sometimes I think what we’re actually doing is just, you know, as they say, historically, journalism happens to be the first rough draft of human history. And I think that’s what we’re doing, just chronicling, you know, what’s happening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What about you, Rahsaan? Is there, like any difference in the way that you think about credibility in, in prison or in talking to incarcerated sources versus just, you know, any source that you might talk to for a story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, I start out with talking with anyone as if they’re telling the truth, unless my instincts or they give me a reason not to believe them, or they make a claim that the world might not believe. And like Jesse said, you need proof to back it up. Not for me, but because if we’re going to print, it could be a lawsuit. Whatever I need to be able to back this up, it needs to be a fact, right? I think one of my greatest problems or greatest issues I ran into was being a freelancer. When it came to quoting incarcerated people in the yard. There were organizations that wanted like, it was just hard for them to accept a quote from an incarcerated person. They wanted, like notes and verification and just all this extra layers. But yet they’ll take a CDCR quote and run with it. Just don’t even fact check nothing, just run with it, put out propaganda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I just felt like what makes their work better than ours? Or what as a journalist like, why would you devalue- is it me? Because like, you know, we have people on NBC that was known liars, like all kinds of journalists, on major platforms. So it’s not where you at, you know, that determines your level of integrity. And so I felt like I was almost being censored by my colleagues because you’re putting a higher standard on who’s quotable or who’s reliable. When I’m telling you I’m living right here. And I see this person’s daily walk every day. They’re reliable, right? They have a reliable track record. Right. And so who are you doubting, me? Them? Both? And what are you using to weigh credibility? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie, I know you have spent many years covering prisons, a lot of years talking to public information officers and public affairs officers for CDCR. A lot of years, you know, trying to break through the wall of bureaucracy and official speak to get real answers on things that are incredibly important, you know, both for people who are incarcerated and for people who are not incarcerated, who pay for this incredibly expensive system that we all own here in California. You know, what are your, you know, tips, and, and how to do that or if not tips, what are your frustrations with trying to do that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I, I’m going to be a little negative here. I don’t think you’ll ever get a specific answer to a specific question unless it’s innocuous or makes them look good. I think the way to deal with it is to get your information and to dig deep and have your facts. And like we did in the podcast, like, say, ‘This, this and this happened, what’s your response?’ So that it’s like you’re giving them enough rope. They are saying something ludicrous in response to evidence that you’re presenting in your story. So I think it’s like going every other place to get the information, stacking it up and presenting it and then saying, ‘Okay, now try to deny all this.’ And then let them, let them deny it. And they it just exposes them as for what they are, just not telling the truth. Not not being forthright. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what’s been your experience like, Jesse? I mean, I know, like when you were incarcerated, you would have to, you know, try and get response from CDCR and now, you know, as you know, kind of a publisher, like helping other journalists who are incarcerated, you know, how do you kind of bring accountability questions to, you know, CDC, our public affairs, and what are the kinds of answers you get? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s pretty interesting because the whole profession of being a public information officer, right? It’s a lot of damage control. You know, it’s a lot of damage control. It’s a lot of, you know, trying to salvage an image, you know, and I think, again, like I always preface what I say with, I try to give people a lot of grace because I understand as individuals you’re put in between a rock and a hard spot, right? When this is your job, this is what you get paid for. This is what you’re supposed to do, right? Ethically and morally, you may not agree with it, right? And you may have questions. But, you know, at the end of the day, you have to protect your institution from liability, you know? So I’m very mindful of that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, when I talk to our reporters and everybody that we’re training to be reporters inside the carceral system, it’s like, don’t expect people to validate the truth that you know. You know, like, just know that there’s going to be some version that’s going to come out that may not be the actual truth, you know, but you have to find a way to tell that story anyway. And then we have to be able to, not just bring them accountability, but also bring enough awareness and notoriety to the issue that it’s going to make a difference. Right? Because it can’t just come from one person and one source. And I think that’s been the thing that has helped us. Right? It’s not just about like the incarcerated. So our editor in chief wants to know this, you know, do you have an answer for him? It’s like, well, our editor in chief, you know, these two other publications and these five organizations, you know, are interested in what’s happening here. And all of a sudden it’s like, oh, you got more people involved and stuff, right? So it’s like there’s more eyeballs. There’s more accountability, right? Having more like institutions that produce journalism be involved with prison journalists is essential if we’re going to hold the systems accountable. Right. Because I think at the end of the day, most people want accountability and transparency, right? But it’s scary to go through that change. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, Rahsaan, I know we’ve talked in the past before about like, the frustrations that you have about the kinds of stories you feel like you’re allowed to tell, or people want you to tell. Can you speak to that a little bit about just, you know, the limitations that people of the journalism people allow you? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It goes back to credibility again. Right? For whatever reason, they don’t respect incarcerated people as real journalists, even though we are behind enemy lines, so to speak, and speaking from the belly of the beast, which is a tough. But certain organizations limit you to opinion pieces. Right. And so I try to be positive about that. Like we do enough opinion pieces and they’ll respect, like, we’ll build a relationship and then they’ll respect us. And then a guy will end up, you know, doing a feature piece, doing an actual reported piece. And, you know, here and there that works out, but some of us are still stuck, and some of these organizations still got it stuck in opinion piece mode. And I just think we’re so much better than that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I know that sometimes somebody might take offense that they’ve been to journalism school and got this degree and spent all this money and here comes somebody who just bootleg trained off the yard in the Journalism Guild, and they’re able to earn a living from prison or take up space in that paper that maybe these journalists feel like that belongs to me and my degree. But I think that if you want a better society, you have to get the whole story. Then we’ll be doing what we supposed to do as journalists, which I believe is a- to foster democracy, a world that’s inclusive, a world that’s better, a world that works for all of us. But if we only featuring one side of the story and we limit ourselves to this crap. This clickbait. We get what we we going to keep getting what we’ve been getting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I do want to say that I think things are getting somewhat better. Empowerment Avenue launched during Covid when reporters couldn’t get the story except having direct access to us. And so we controlled the narrative and we were able to put stories out. But COVID’s gone and the demand for incarcerated voices has gone up. And now guys have actual journalism jobs as like editors and reporters from prison and making decent salaries. So I think the world is changing. But there’s still some organizations that don’t have incarcerated voices connected. They haven’t built that community. They don’t know where the experts are. So there’s still more work to be done. But because that the demand for our voices has grown, and formerly incarcerated people keep winning Pulitzer Prizes. So I’m super proud. Like the world wants to hear our side of the story, they tired of the same old law and order crap, right? And so I’m really going into the future hopeful, but yet still speaking loudly about all the flaws that we need to fix so we can hurry up and fix them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And I think I’ll just add that what made prison journalism a force to be reckoned with in the 1800s early 1900s, up until 1991, when we had, you know 300 newspapers inside of prisons, it was community engagement, you know, like deep engagement, you know, with the prison system and, you know, just paying attention to those stories and holding the system accountable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The other thing, too, like a lot of times we think that change in policy is going to change the world. And it doesn’t. You know, you can’t legislate how people feel about each other. You can’t tell me I gotta like somebody. You have to create a culture and an environment and a space where I want to help, where I want to care, where I want to be involved. Right. And I think creating spaces like this prison journalism movement that we have going on, like we’re actually trying to develop more civic engagement because people who are civically engaged care about their communities, and their communities start caring about them. So and I think that’s going to be at the core of how we create a cultural change that’s going to, you know, supersede policy, you know, by maybe five, ten years. So be mindful that, you know, like how you report on people, shows what you care for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you, Jessie and Roseanne and Julie for having this great conversation about journalism. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bye. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you. I appreciate being here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Thanks for having us as colleagues on here. It’s great. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have links to Jesse and Rahsaan’s work in our episode description, as well as other resources to support prison journalism. Please continue to send tips or feedback about the series to onourwatch@KQED.org. This episode was hosted by me, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sukey Lewis\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is also KQED’s Director of Podcasts. It was produced by Chris Egusa. Final mixing by Brendan Willard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Original music by Ramtin Arablouei, including our theme song. Additional music from APM Music and Audio Network. Funding for On Our Watch is provided in part by Arnold Ventures and the California Endowment. Thank you to Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager, our managing Editor of News and Enterprise, Otis R. Taylor Jr., Ethan Toven-Lindsay, our Vice President of News and KQED Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan. And thanks to all of you for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sukey sits down with Mary Inman and Poppy Alexander, two whistleblower attorneys who talk about the cost of speaking up, and unpack the playbook that employers use to keep people quiet. They also discuss a shift in thinking that can protect both whistleblowers and their organizations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC4625892902\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mental health resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are currently in crisis, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAMHSA National Help Line\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://988lifeline.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/help\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) Helpline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.hhs.gov/programs/prevention-and-wellness/mental-health-substance-abuse/index.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">US Health and Human Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://warmline.org/warmdir.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warmline Directory\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Whistleblower resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblower.law/\">Whistleblower Partners, LLP\u003c/a> (where Mary and Poppy are partners)\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"http://www.thelamplighterproject.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Lamplighter Project\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://thesignalsnetwork.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Signals Network\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://empowr.us/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">EMPOWR\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblowersofamerica.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whistleblowers of America\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://whistleblower.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Government Accountability Project\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblowers.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">National Whistleblower Center\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://whistlebloweraid.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whistleblower Aid\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Mary Inman was profiled in the New Yorker piece, \u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/02/04/the-personal-toll-of-whistle-blowing\">“The Personal Toll of Whistleblowing.”\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism was a key partner in making Season 2 of On Our Watch.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The records obtained for this project are part of the\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> California Reporting Project\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a coalition of news organizations in California. If you have tips or feedback about this series please reach out to us at \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"mailto:onourwatch@kqed.org\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">onourwatch@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we start, I just wanted to give you a heads up that this episode references suicide. If you or someone you know needs support, we’ve got links to resources in the episode description. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, listeners, it’s Sukey. We’re back. Over the next few weeks, we’re going to be bringing you some brand new bonus episodes. We’re going to dip into some of the stories that didn’t make it in the podcast, and talk to some experts to help us understand Correctional Officer Valentino Rodriguez and Sergeant Kevin Steele in a broader light. We’re starting off this week with a really interesting conversation about what it means to be a whistleblower. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When my colleague Julie first spoke to Val Senior about his son and his friend, Sergeant Kevin Steele, he was hesitant to call them whistleblowers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That name doesn’t do justice to people that have come forward, for me. When we were kids, being a whistleblower is tattletale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, see I think of it as heroic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The term and its many fraught interpretations are woven throughout our story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dion Green: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I’m a whistleblower rat for ex- exposing this ongoing corruption of staff and that I need to be taken out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sgt. Kevin Steele: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It can take on a bad connotation sometimes, but it is, again, a government program intended to expose corruption. That’s what it’s designed for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tinkerbell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I still haven’t been confirmed with whistleblower status, so that’s another reason why I’m a little still… I mean, I would venture to say that hopefully, the legal system would protect me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so we wanted to spend some time talking to two people who can help us understand this term and the challenges of coming forward. Thank you both so much for coming in. Could we just start off by having you each introduce yourselves? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sure. My name’s Mary Inman. I’m a partner at the law firm Whistleblower Partners, and I’m in the San Francisco office, and we specialize in representing whistleblowers under the various U.S. whistleblower reward programs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I am Poppy Alexander. I am Mary’s partner here at Whistleblower Partners in the San Francisco office. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We wanted to talk to Mary and Poppy to better understand the journey that Officer Valentino Rodriguez and Sergeant Kevin Steele went through to become whistleblowers, and to see if they had any solutions for how to better support people like them in the future. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, yeah, these were two correctional officers. Well, one was a correctional officer, the other was a correctional sergeant, who both took it upon themselves to report the misconduct of their fellow officers, which is, you know, a very difficult thing to do. And, you know, had pretty serious consequences because of it. And I was just wondering, Mary, if you can put their stories in a broader context, you know, how common are experiences like theirs, among whistleblowers that you speak to or that you have, you know, studied? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Unfortunately, the experiences that both Valentino and Sergeant Steele had are incredibly common. There seems to be a playbook that organizations — whether they’re private or public — have when someone blows the whistle. It’s often people reverting to what I call a ‘medieval mindset,’ where the playbook says we shoot the messenger to divert attention from the message. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that certainly seems very much to be the case that happened here. But it happens regardless of industry or sector. Poppy and I have represented whistleblowers in the tech sector, in health care, in transportation, in finance, and it’s very similar. When you would hope that what a whistleblower does is just shine a light on a fraud for people to look at it or wrongdoing for people to examine it is incredibly demoralizing to a whistleblower that the spotlight gets moved away from that and shown solidly on them. And that can be incredibly disorienting and incredibly demoralizing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mary is absolutely right. We see this all the time in every industry. But I do think that there’s something special about the prison context here. We’re talking about folks who are literally locked up, whether you are a guard or you’re a prisoner, you’re in the same space. You’re sort of stuck together. That is inevitably going to lead to a different mentality that is very much about, you know, circling up, guarding the wagons. That is more extreme even than what we see in sort of the normal context as well. There is a real incentive in these kinds of spaces to guard the institution, to shoot the messenger, to keep the doors closed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s all these perceptions from very- when we’re a very young age that, you know, you don’t rat out or you don’t tattle. That is just magnified a thousand fold when you enter the scenario of military or security or in this case, prison guards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And peace officers as well, kind of have, you know, a unique bind or perhaps a unique bind, which is that they’re often both required by policy to report misconduct and not insulated from retaliation if they do so. And if they end up stepping outside the chain of command to report misconduct, you know, to the media, for example, they can get disciplined for sharing confidential information. And I think it also just makes it so difficult for peace officers, in particular, to know what the right thing to do is, you know, they’re they’re bound by all these conflicting rules. And then where does their own moral compass come into things? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I totally agree, and I think, as you were pointing out, Sukey, the the fact that there can be all of these competing obligations that you have… One of the things that can be most difficult is what was present here — is that the wrongdoing that both Valentino and Sergeant Steele were trying to expose went to the very top. And so it can be- it feels like it’s, it’s futile in a way to expose that internally when you’re exposing it to the very chain of command that’s engaged in the wrongdoing. I do understand that, you know, the Office of Internal Affairs is supposed to be, you know, playing a particular ro- role, but it’s incredibly fraught when the fraud has really been designed, and the architects of the fraud are the people who really control your fate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as you’re saying, you know, if the whistleblower is exposed internally, that can create incredible psychological and emotional pressures on them. And I think we saw that with both Sergeant Kevin Steele and Valentino Rodriguez, in that kind of isolation and ostracization that they experienced. There are also a number of other officers, you know, who have died by suicide after reporting misconduct and feeling like everyone has turned against them, and I think also that their efforts aren’t aren’t- don’t amount to anything. So that frustration that, ‘I did risk so much, I did put my ass on the line to expose the misconduct. And still there’s nothing being done.’ I know you have, you know, this is an area that’s near and dear to your work, Mary. Can you talk a little bit about the psychosocial impacts of whistleblowing and, you know, these very, very serious, you know, deadly consequences? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I mean, I think we’ve seen this, you’re alluding to, unfortunately, I’ve had the great tragedy of losing two clients in my life. And one of them, The New Yorker did an article talking about the personal toll of whistleblowing. But we’ve also seen it very recently with John Barnett, who’s the whistleblower in the, in the, in the Boeing case, who it appears that he took his life. There’s still, you know, I think some questions about that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think one of the hardest pieces, and where I think we would all be really well served, is creating a level of psychosocial support, not just for whistleblowers, which I think is vital, but also for the first responders, for the people who deal with whistleblowers — for lawyers like myself. I learned the hard way on having to know more about resources that whistleblowers need. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the best things that anyone can do when they’re first dealing with a whistleblower, whether it’s someone in H.R., or it’s the lawyers who they ultimately come to, or even the media, is to say, ‘I believe you.’ Right? Because that’s the issue, is that they have been in this unreality where, you know, they have been made the problem, and the problem they’re seeking to expose has been swept under the rug. So their whole world has been turned upside down and they’ve lost their support network. So everyone at work now knows that they are, you know, they’re radioactive. ‘Don’t do what you know, Valentino did because it’s not it’s not going to inure to your benefit.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So all of a sudden you’re- you’re isolated. You’ve lost your support network. Then you magnify this by going at home and you’ve lost your job, and your spouse is now or your significant other is incredibly angry, and resentful. So you, you know, the walls do start to feel like they’re closing in. And that’s why I think society we’re at a point — we need whistleblowers so much. They’re often I, I like to say the ‘Fifth Estate.’ They’re they’re a lot of the folks who are actually exposing and holding people to account, but yet we don’t have the even most basic, psycho- psychosocial supports for these people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it feels like this kind of vicious cycle as well, too, that, you know, then because you’re under the psychological pressure and you, you know, begin to feel gaslit or what have you or you do take your life, then we see these cases where the employer or the organization can point at them and say, ‘Look, see, we don’t have to believe what they said. They were the ones having trouble. They were the one, you know, they were in mental distress. They were crazy.’ And so discount their reports even after, you know, their deaths. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, first of all, that’s not good logic. And secondly, I hope that the folks, the other folks that that message is directed to, which, of course, is the other employees can recognize how circular that logic is and how self-serving, and how it simply doesn’t reflect the truth. And again, that’s why it’s so important that those whistleblowers who are in a position to do so can be public and can come forward and say, ‘Look: I did this. I survived, and this is what the process looks like.’ No one sets out to be a whistleblower. No one. You know, this is not anyone’s life goal or career aspiration. It happens. You’re forced into it for all sorts of different reasons. And knowing that people have come before and have made it through to the other side is really important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Totally agree. And I think one of the one of the hardest things for whistleblowers that results in these, very desperate situations in terms of whistleblowers taking their own lives, I think, is that whistleblowers start out not thinking that they’re whistleblowers at all. They’re just trying to expose wrongdoing. And then the world gets turned upside down and the wrongdoing is ignored and the spotlight gets turned on them, that they’re the problem. What makes it so difficult is that I think they have an abiding sense of, ‘There’s an injustice, there’s something wrong, and it hasn’t been addressed. And yet all of this energy, like enormous amounts of energy and resources which could have been used to address the problem, are now being focused on me as the problem.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think those are just- it’s so hard to reconcile that. And I think one of the best services that Poppy and I can offer is to describe the playbook to the whistleblower and say, ‘If you talk to me early on, I’m going to spell out for you how this is going to go.’ And then at least it takes some of the sting out of it. And it’s, it’s really quite ironic. Our clients are like, ‘You are completely prescient. Do you have a crystal ball? Like, how did you know this was going to happen?’ And we just said, unfortunately, this is just the path. And so if you know that that’s going to happen and you can try and plan for it, it does help whistleblowers to at least absorb those blows. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think that, like you’re talking about the psychological journey of the whistleblower. And I think, you know, especially for Sergeant Kevin Steele, he… he really did you kind of see this arc of his, you know, disillusionment with his institution and that the place that he begins in is one of such faith in these, you know, pillars that he believed in and that were of, you know, fairness and accountability. And, you know, he’s just so kind of by the book, dude. And the betrayal that he experienced when he did try to report misconduct and having that not be taken seriously was incredibly crushing to him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I mean, I think with Sergeant Steele, it’s a particularly acute scenario because in addition to him feeling, you know, having the expectation that all of these policies and, you know, oaths that they took would be taken seriously. And to have the scales fall from your eyes is, you know, it’s a very disillusioning process. But I think what magnified it for him and amplified it, is that he became close with Valentino’s father and he was really traumatized by Valentino’s death, and this question of whether or not this was, you know, a suspicious death. Whether he died under particular circumstances. So I think there was also a level of guilt, because Valentino was on his team and someone that he should protect. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is absolutely the same thing we see. I- we see this day in and day out with whistleblowers in terms of the journeys that they have. And I think that a lot of us have observed this that there’s sort of this culture, at least, at least in the United States, as to whistleblowing that they’re either heroes or villains. And I think a lot of us believe that one of the best things, psychologically, for whistleblowers is if we could normalize it. They don’t want to be either. And I think that that is probably one of the things that they get caught up in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is in this, in this sort of dilemma. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We saw with the MeToo movement that a lot of this is- the psychological journey can also involve gaslighting and starting to doubt yourself. I think that’s what we see with Sergeant Steele is that he believed all of these things to be true. And then his reality started to change. And then that really makes you start to doubt yourself. And, and the circling the wagons phenomenon that Poppy talked about just makes this worse, is that everybody else is trying to suggest that this is not how it happened. And you start to then that makes even more self-doubt, which can be a very vicious cycle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s interesting. There’s some studies that talk a lot about what happens to whistleblowers. Because of the pressures they lose their friends, they lose their social network. And so the New England Journal of Medicine did a study on pharmaceutical whistleblowers who expose the pharmaceutical industry. You know, they’re seeing higher incidences of divorce, of depression, anxiety, substance abuse. I think these are all outward indicators of tools that- and the occasion of what happens when, you know, you expose something and then, instead of it being corrected, it gets covered up. And then you yourself, as the whistleblower, often become persona non grata. The retaliation is done by your employer as a way to send a signal to other whistleblowers, ‘You shouldn’t do this.’ So your sort of almost made, basically made an example of. So I think all of these are, you know, is an environment that’s just incredibly difficult. And it adds insult to injury. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You mentioned the MeToo movement, and I think one of the things that we have found in our reporting as well, is how, you know, discrimination, misogyny, racism also become tools to enforce the code of silence and to keep people from speaking up. I mean, I know as a woman, that feeling of like, oh, I’ve got to be cool to get along. You know, I’m not going to like, rock the boat or push back if somebody makes an inappropriate comment — you know, taken to a much more serious level, obviously, with Valentino Rodriguez. But does that translate to other contexts outside the prison as well? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. Unfortunately, we see this a lot. It is rarer than any of us would like to see female whistleblowers, to see whistleblowers of color. And so much of that has to do with that mentality you just mentioned. That, you know, ‘we’re trained to get along,’ and we’re trained that ‘to get along’ means to value the traditional workplace culture of white cis men. And that obviously is amplified in the prison context. But that’s true everywhere. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I- this is my completely uneducated guess, but I do feel like we’re starting to see a shift there. And certainly starting to see more female whistleblowers just coming in the door. And I do wonder how much of that is the MeToo movement. I wonder how much of that is people just being fed up with that attitude. But it still is very much a problem. And, you know, as Mary said, we have this tradition of we either see whistleblowers as heroes or villains, but either way, it’s oftentimes this sort of mentality of, you know, the single man standing alone on the hilltop shouting, you know, shouting the truth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s not true. Women have been whistleblowers forever. People of color have been whistleblowers forever. They have found other ways to make sure that that information gets out. You know, some have been very public about it. Erin Brockovich is, you know, maybe the quintessential example on some level. But, and other people do it in different ways. They help their community. They make sure that the information gets out via a whisper network, what have you. There’s all sorts of strategies to make sure that the truth gets told. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But when it comes to this sort of ‘in-group outgroup mentality’ of making sure that you were sort of getting along in a confined space, whether that’s a workplace, whether that’s a prison, whether that’s whatever it might be, there certainly are added incentives to put your head down, do your work, ignore what is oftentimes right in front of your face as a wrong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I agree, the power differential is something that is really significant, right? In terms of you see, a lot of studies have shown that women and people of color are more likely to leave an organization than to report. And I do think that MeToo started to show us a way that, if we can create a solidarity among whistleblowers, I think that’s one of the strongest way we can encourage, reporting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I would love to see us have more avenues to find ways to bring whistleblowers together. So it isn’t, just that lone wolf as Poppy said. But that there are multiple people linking arms, saying that this happened to them as well. And then you really do have to pay, give it more credence than if it’s just one sole person. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Ad break]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think within, you know, the California Department of Corrections and going back to the policy of their, you know, ban on the code of silence, there’s been an unintended consequence, at least according — or maybe it’s intended, I don’t know — but at least according to the correctional officers that we spoke to, which is that if you don’t report right away, you can then get in trouble when you report later. Like, if you see an incident happen, excessive use of force, maybe you’re fearful to come forward initially, and then you- you gather that internal fortitude and you decide to make that report, you can often then get disciplined for, you know, holding to the code of silence thus far. And it creates a disincentive to come forward rather than, you know, the stated purpose of this policy, which is to create an incentive to come forward. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s such a challenge. You know, we have clients who come forward sometimes and tell us about information that’s many, many years old. And there’s lots of reasons why they might suddenly wake up one day and say, ‘Now’s the time. I have to tell someone.’ Of course, it’s probably better in terms of trying to solve problems, when people come to us with fresh information, we can usually do more with it. But that doesn’t mean that that’s a less valid whistleblower simply because they waited. It usually means that there’s something else going on in their lives that prevented them from coming forward first. And we need to recognize that in how we design our policies and how we think through this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, we’ve heard from a number of correctional officers since the podcast came out saying that just hearing these stories made them feel like, you know, they might have an opportunity to speak up. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And that’s, you know, really heartening, obviously, in terms of just the rewarding work of getting these voices out into the world. But I’ve also talked to correctional officers who have, you know, tried to get whistleblower protections, and often they want to do it before they blow the whistle. They want to know, like, ‘Oh, I’m going to be protected ahead of time. Like, where do I go to, you know, get my whistleblower card or whatever.’ \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And, you know, from my understanding, it really doesn’t work like that. Like it’s very based on, you know, retroactive retaliation. And if you can prove that you were retaliated against, maybe you can get some retroactive protection. But can either of you address that issue? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there really, it can be very difficult to prove retaliation. Sort of the statistics of the ability of someone to succeed in a retaliation claim in the United States are very dire. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re not great. And I think part of that is because it’s very difficult to prove that you were retaliated against for speaking up as compared to some- any other reason that someone can pretextual come up with, right? Like, oh, you’re chronically late, even though your chronic lateness was something that everyone tolerated for years. But until you spoke up, then all of a sudden that becomes a problem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there something that needs to change in the law to make that an easier argument to make, or to, you know, the lower the standard of proof that you have to reach in order to prove that retaliation happened? What are some fixes that you see for that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, it’s interesting, in Europe there’s now something called the European Whistleblowing Directive. And one of the changes that they made that I would love to see being made across all of the various retaliation protections laws, is this burden- shifting the burden of proof. That the burden initially, and for too long, remains on the plaintiff. To have to prove that, you know, they were retaliated against because they spoke up. And if we can reverse- shift that burden of proof and put it on the employer, actually, to prove that, you know, they did do it for a legitimate reason, I think that would be one concrete way that we could improve the odds that people could succeed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the, you know, looking domestically, I think the SEC also provides a really excellent model here where the SEC takes very seriously any accusations of retaliation related to someone who has reported securities fraud to the, to the agency. And they take it very seriously and they, you know, will tell employers at every opportunity that they take it very seriously. And that public messaging has been extremely important and protective. And then oftentimes it then puts whistleblowers in the somewhat uncomfortable position of having to decide where they’re going to publicly declare to the company that they, in fact, did report to the SEC, because then that does provide them some level of protection. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That only applies to some small subset of the whistle blowing world. But there’s no reason that has to be true. There’s lots of other ways to try to build off of that same level of protection that we see. There’s other agencies that are involved and whistle-blowing in all sorts of forms, we have- you know, OSHA is involved in many of these cases. There’s- we have lots of agencies here. So I think there’s lots of other strategies to try to build in more of a protection. But it does. It always starts with culture. Right? And that’s culture both from the government side of telling companies and telling organizations what’s important. And then of course, it starts on the company side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I think the- the long tail of fear that correctional officers experience after- even after they leave… Like, they’ve retired for years, but they’re still afraid to speak up. They don’t know if their pension can be taken away. They don’t know what power the institution still has over them. There’s also, you know, obviously just their their friendship groups and their culture that they’re afraid of losing. But there’s just this very long tail of oppression, I would say, that they experience psychologically and that it’s not entirely dissipated when they leave the prison at all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. And you know, so, so many times prisons, right, are and very small towns. And so even if you’re not working at the prison, you’re still- most other people in the town are going to be. And that then means there’s really no way to sort of escape that. But of course, you shouldn’t have to. You shouldn’t have to lose all your friends and community simply because you’re willing to take a stand and tell the truth. That should never be a consequence of telling the truth. And- but of course it acts as a disincentive for coming forward, for speaking out against the pack, for what have you, which can only be remedied by changing the culture, can only be remedied by encouraging people to see that as a good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Sukey, you’re right that the retaliation doesn’t stop when they leave the prison. And there’s sort of a long tail of retaliation, right? Which is often when you go to that next job, unfortunately that next employer will often call for a recommendation or a reference to your existing employer. And, we often see that even if they’re not doing it directly, there’s word of mouth that, ‘You don’t want this person. This is, this person is disloyal. They, you know, they’ve exposed us and created all this difficulty. They’re a troublemaker and you shouldn’t hire them.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so that certainly, you know, in the case of my whistleblower client that was featured in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New Yorker\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, that was really ultimately his undoing, right? Is that he ended up, because he couldn’t leave the, the part of Florida where he was practicing. He would get interviews and get to a certain place, and then in, in getting his next job position. And when it got to that reference point and they’d say like, ‘Oh, he seems great.’ And you get all these signals. And then all of a sudden when it came to closing the deal, they would never hire him. So that ends up in you draining your 401K, you now don’t have, you know, you’re no longer gainfully employed, and now you’re blocklisted or blacklisted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that is one of the other problems that just makes it, again, incredibly insidious that… I always talk about there’s this ‘Scarlet W’ on your chest that’s emblazoned. And that you may want to put it down, you may even want to put down the mantle of whistleblower, but often you’re not allowed to. And that is a cross that you are bearing again and again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, one of the things that really struck me just doing this reporting is the disconnect between the formal institutional stance, which says, you know, ‘The code of silence is banned. And we want, you know, we take all reports of employee misconduct very seriously, and we want people to come forward.’ And then that what actually happens in response to that. And I’m just wondering if either of you can speak to… is there a policy change that can fix this? Or because there is this disconnect already between policy and action, you know, do we need a different intervention? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a cultural problem much more than a policy problem. Though the policies obviously are then tied together because if you know that the company’s policy is that they’re going to, you know, they’re going to take every whistleblower complaint with this huge grain of salt, they’re not going to start from the presumption that the whistleblower is correct. They’re not going to start from the presumption, which is usually true, that the whistleblower is reporting this because they love the company or the organization or, you know, the group. They’re doing it out of love. They’re doing it because they want it to be better. They’ve, you know, they found a problem and they want to fix the problem, and they want to do it before someone from the outside finds out about the problem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That so often is what the energy is that our clients bring when they’re coming forward. And what they’re met with is this culture of silence there. You know, you talk into a black box, you never hear what happens again. All too often, our clients say to us that we are the first person to ever listen to them about what they’re talking about. And that’s sad because we are never someone’s first call. We really aren’t. They’re always trying to get some change to happen before they resort to calling a whistleblower attorney — as as they should be, quite honestly. And if smart organizations and smart companies would just listen to their whistleblowers, they would put us out of a job. But that’s good. That would be better for everybody. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I agree, and there’s some really great empirical data and research coming out of George Washington University and the University of Utah that really reinforces this idea that whistleblowers are actually your best risk management tool. They’re the canaries in the coal mine that actually help you see a problem before we’re all overtaken by noxious fumes. And this research really basically underscores that companies that actually see whistleblowers in this way as, as, you know, people who can help mitigate risks and deal with problems before they metastasize into something like a big public relations scandal… If you use them in this way, it actually allows companies to be more profitable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think one of the biggest things that needs to happen is just an education on who whistleblowers really are. As Poppy said, whistleblowers are- not only are they not disloyal, they are your \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">most\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> loyal employees because it takes a lot of intestinal fortitude to be the type of employee who is going to tell you the hard truths at considerable potential risk to themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for coming into the studio and just lending your expertise and your empathy to this conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s been a real pleasure to be on this podcast. It’s a real testament that the only way we’re going to get change is, is to, you know, point to really great investigative journalists like this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. It’s, it’s a horrible topic, but it brings great joy to talk about it because it’s so important and so misunderstood, quite honestly, I think, so much about the process of whistleblowing. And so every opportunity to be able to talk about it and really go in depth as you are in this podcast series is just invaluable. And it’s invaluable for the future whistleblowers, for the next person who finds themself in an uncomfortable situation where they really need to speak up and they don’t know what it means and they don’t know how. You know, the education of learning what that process looks like is something we all need to work on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, that was Poppy Alexander and Mary Inman. They are also working right now with federal legislators to try and introduce a bill that would provide mental health support for whistleblowers. We have a link to Mary and Poppy’s website in our episode description, along with other resources for whistleblowers. Please continue to send tips or feedback about the series to On Our Watch at K-Q-E-D dot O-R-G. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was hosted by me, Sukey Lewis. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is also KQED’s Director of Podcasts. It was produced, scored, and cut by Chris Egusa. Final mixing by Christopher Beale. Original music by Ramtin Arablouei, including our theme song. Additional music from APM Music and Audio Network. Funding for On Our Watch is provided in part by Arnold Ventures and the California Endowment. Thank you to Katie Sprenger, our Podcast Operations Manager, our Managing Editor of News and Enterprise, Otis, R. Taylor, Jr., Ethan Toven-Lindsay, our Vice President of News, and KQED Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And thanks to all of you for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sukey sits down with Mary Inman and Poppy Alexander, two whistleblower attorneys who talk about the cost of speaking up, and unpack the playbook that employers use to keep people quiet. They also discuss a shift in thinking that can protect both whistleblowers and their organizations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC4625892902\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mental health resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are currently in crisis, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAMHSA National Help Line\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://988lifeline.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/help\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) Helpline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.hhs.gov/programs/prevention-and-wellness/mental-health-substance-abuse/index.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">US Health and Human Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://warmline.org/warmdir.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warmline Directory\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Whistleblower resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblower.law/\">Whistleblower Partners, LLP\u003c/a> (where Mary and Poppy are partners)\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"http://www.thelamplighterproject.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Lamplighter Project\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://thesignalsnetwork.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Signals Network\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://empowr.us/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">EMPOWR\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblowersofamerica.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whistleblowers of America\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://whistleblower.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Government Accountability Project\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblowers.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">National Whistleblower Center\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://whistlebloweraid.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whistleblower Aid\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Mary Inman was profiled in the New Yorker piece, \u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/02/04/the-personal-toll-of-whistle-blowing\">“The Personal Toll of Whistleblowing.”\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism was a key partner in making Season 2 of On Our Watch.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The records obtained for this project are part of the\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> California Reporting Project\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a coalition of news organizations in California. If you have tips or feedback about this series please reach out to us at \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"mailto:onourwatch@kqed.org\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">onourwatch@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we start, I just wanted to give you a heads up that this episode references suicide. If you or someone you know needs support, we’ve got links to resources in the episode description. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, listeners, it’s Sukey. We’re back. Over the next few weeks, we’re going to be bringing you some brand new bonus episodes. We’re going to dip into some of the stories that didn’t make it in the podcast, and talk to some experts to help us understand Correctional Officer Valentino Rodriguez and Sergeant Kevin Steele in a broader light. We’re starting off this week with a really interesting conversation about what it means to be a whistleblower. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When my colleague Julie first spoke to Val Senior about his son and his friend, Sergeant Kevin Steele, he was hesitant to call them whistleblowers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That name doesn’t do justice to people that have come forward, for me. When we were kids, being a whistleblower is tattletale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, see I think of it as heroic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The term and its many fraught interpretations are woven throughout our story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dion Green: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I’m a whistleblower rat for ex- exposing this ongoing corruption of staff and that I need to be taken out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sgt. Kevin Steele: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It can take on a bad connotation sometimes, but it is, again, a government program intended to expose corruption. That’s what it’s designed for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tinkerbell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I still haven’t been confirmed with whistleblower status, so that’s another reason why I’m a little still… I mean, I would venture to say that hopefully, the legal system would protect me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so we wanted to spend some time talking to two people who can help us understand this term and the challenges of coming forward. Thank you both so much for coming in. Could we just start off by having you each introduce yourselves? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sure. My name’s Mary Inman. I’m a partner at the law firm Whistleblower Partners, and I’m in the San Francisco office, and we specialize in representing whistleblowers under the various U.S. whistleblower reward programs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I am Poppy Alexander. I am Mary’s partner here at Whistleblower Partners in the San Francisco office. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We wanted to talk to Mary and Poppy to better understand the journey that Officer Valentino Rodriguez and Sergeant Kevin Steele went through to become whistleblowers, and to see if they had any solutions for how to better support people like them in the future. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, yeah, these were two correctional officers. Well, one was a correctional officer, the other was a correctional sergeant, who both took it upon themselves to report the misconduct of their fellow officers, which is, you know, a very difficult thing to do. And, you know, had pretty serious consequences because of it. And I was just wondering, Mary, if you can put their stories in a broader context, you know, how common are experiences like theirs, among whistleblowers that you speak to or that you have, you know, studied? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Unfortunately, the experiences that both Valentino and Sergeant Steele had are incredibly common. There seems to be a playbook that organizations — whether they’re private or public — have when someone blows the whistle. It’s often people reverting to what I call a ‘medieval mindset,’ where the playbook says we shoot the messenger to divert attention from the message. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that certainly seems very much to be the case that happened here. But it happens regardless of industry or sector. Poppy and I have represented whistleblowers in the tech sector, in health care, in transportation, in finance, and it’s very similar. When you would hope that what a whistleblower does is just shine a light on a fraud for people to look at it or wrongdoing for people to examine it is incredibly demoralizing to a whistleblower that the spotlight gets moved away from that and shown solidly on them. And that can be incredibly disorienting and incredibly demoralizing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mary is absolutely right. We see this all the time in every industry. But I do think that there’s something special about the prison context here. We’re talking about folks who are literally locked up, whether you are a guard or you’re a prisoner, you’re in the same space. You’re sort of stuck together. That is inevitably going to lead to a different mentality that is very much about, you know, circling up, guarding the wagons. That is more extreme even than what we see in sort of the normal context as well. There is a real incentive in these kinds of spaces to guard the institution, to shoot the messenger, to keep the doors closed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s all these perceptions from very- when we’re a very young age that, you know, you don’t rat out or you don’t tattle. That is just magnified a thousand fold when you enter the scenario of military or security or in this case, prison guards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And peace officers as well, kind of have, you know, a unique bind or perhaps a unique bind, which is that they’re often both required by policy to report misconduct and not insulated from retaliation if they do so. And if they end up stepping outside the chain of command to report misconduct, you know, to the media, for example, they can get disciplined for sharing confidential information. And I think it also just makes it so difficult for peace officers, in particular, to know what the right thing to do is, you know, they’re they’re bound by all these conflicting rules. And then where does their own moral compass come into things? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I totally agree, and I think, as you were pointing out, Sukey, the the fact that there can be all of these competing obligations that you have… One of the things that can be most difficult is what was present here — is that the wrongdoing that both Valentino and Sergeant Steele were trying to expose went to the very top. And so it can be- it feels like it’s, it’s futile in a way to expose that internally when you’re exposing it to the very chain of command that’s engaged in the wrongdoing. I do understand that, you know, the Office of Internal Affairs is supposed to be, you know, playing a particular ro- role, but it’s incredibly fraught when the fraud has really been designed, and the architects of the fraud are the people who really control your fate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as you’re saying, you know, if the whistleblower is exposed internally, that can create incredible psychological and emotional pressures on them. And I think we saw that with both Sergeant Kevin Steele and Valentino Rodriguez, in that kind of isolation and ostracization that they experienced. There are also a number of other officers, you know, who have died by suicide after reporting misconduct and feeling like everyone has turned against them, and I think also that their efforts aren’t aren’t- don’t amount to anything. So that frustration that, ‘I did risk so much, I did put my ass on the line to expose the misconduct. And still there’s nothing being done.’ I know you have, you know, this is an area that’s near and dear to your work, Mary. Can you talk a little bit about the psychosocial impacts of whistleblowing and, you know, these very, very serious, you know, deadly consequences? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I mean, I think we’ve seen this, you’re alluding to, unfortunately, I’ve had the great tragedy of losing two clients in my life. And one of them, The New Yorker did an article talking about the personal toll of whistleblowing. But we’ve also seen it very recently with John Barnett, who’s the whistleblower in the, in the, in the Boeing case, who it appears that he took his life. There’s still, you know, I think some questions about that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think one of the hardest pieces, and where I think we would all be really well served, is creating a level of psychosocial support, not just for whistleblowers, which I think is vital, but also for the first responders, for the people who deal with whistleblowers — for lawyers like myself. I learned the hard way on having to know more about resources that whistleblowers need. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the best things that anyone can do when they’re first dealing with a whistleblower, whether it’s someone in H.R., or it’s the lawyers who they ultimately come to, or even the media, is to say, ‘I believe you.’ Right? Because that’s the issue, is that they have been in this unreality where, you know, they have been made the problem, and the problem they’re seeking to expose has been swept under the rug. So their whole world has been turned upside down and they’ve lost their support network. So everyone at work now knows that they are, you know, they’re radioactive. ‘Don’t do what you know, Valentino did because it’s not it’s not going to inure to your benefit.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So all of a sudden you’re- you’re isolated. You’ve lost your support network. Then you magnify this by going at home and you’ve lost your job, and your spouse is now or your significant other is incredibly angry, and resentful. So you, you know, the walls do start to feel like they’re closing in. And that’s why I think society we’re at a point — we need whistleblowers so much. They’re often I, I like to say the ‘Fifth Estate.’ They’re they’re a lot of the folks who are actually exposing and holding people to account, but yet we don’t have the even most basic, psycho- psychosocial supports for these people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it feels like this kind of vicious cycle as well, too, that, you know, then because you’re under the psychological pressure and you, you know, begin to feel gaslit or what have you or you do take your life, then we see these cases where the employer or the organization can point at them and say, ‘Look, see, we don’t have to believe what they said. They were the ones having trouble. They were the one, you know, they were in mental distress. They were crazy.’ And so discount their reports even after, you know, their deaths. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, first of all, that’s not good logic. And secondly, I hope that the folks, the other folks that that message is directed to, which, of course, is the other employees can recognize how circular that logic is and how self-serving, and how it simply doesn’t reflect the truth. And again, that’s why it’s so important that those whistleblowers who are in a position to do so can be public and can come forward and say, ‘Look: I did this. I survived, and this is what the process looks like.’ No one sets out to be a whistleblower. No one. You know, this is not anyone’s life goal or career aspiration. It happens. You’re forced into it for all sorts of different reasons. And knowing that people have come before and have made it through to the other side is really important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Totally agree. And I think one of the one of the hardest things for whistleblowers that results in these, very desperate situations in terms of whistleblowers taking their own lives, I think, is that whistleblowers start out not thinking that they’re whistleblowers at all. They’re just trying to expose wrongdoing. And then the world gets turned upside down and the wrongdoing is ignored and the spotlight gets turned on them, that they’re the problem. What makes it so difficult is that I think they have an abiding sense of, ‘There’s an injustice, there’s something wrong, and it hasn’t been addressed. And yet all of this energy, like enormous amounts of energy and resources which could have been used to address the problem, are now being focused on me as the problem.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think those are just- it’s so hard to reconcile that. And I think one of the best services that Poppy and I can offer is to describe the playbook to the whistleblower and say, ‘If you talk to me early on, I’m going to spell out for you how this is going to go.’ And then at least it takes some of the sting out of it. And it’s, it’s really quite ironic. Our clients are like, ‘You are completely prescient. Do you have a crystal ball? Like, how did you know this was going to happen?’ And we just said, unfortunately, this is just the path. And so if you know that that’s going to happen and you can try and plan for it, it does help whistleblowers to at least absorb those blows. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think that, like you’re talking about the psychological journey of the whistleblower. And I think, you know, especially for Sergeant Kevin Steele, he… he really did you kind of see this arc of his, you know, disillusionment with his institution and that the place that he begins in is one of such faith in these, you know, pillars that he believed in and that were of, you know, fairness and accountability. And, you know, he’s just so kind of by the book, dude. And the betrayal that he experienced when he did try to report misconduct and having that not be taken seriously was incredibly crushing to him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I mean, I think with Sergeant Steele, it’s a particularly acute scenario because in addition to him feeling, you know, having the expectation that all of these policies and, you know, oaths that they took would be taken seriously. And to have the scales fall from your eyes is, you know, it’s a very disillusioning process. But I think what magnified it for him and amplified it, is that he became close with Valentino’s father and he was really traumatized by Valentino’s death, and this question of whether or not this was, you know, a suspicious death. Whether he died under particular circumstances. So I think there was also a level of guilt, because Valentino was on his team and someone that he should protect. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is absolutely the same thing we see. I- we see this day in and day out with whistleblowers in terms of the journeys that they have. And I think that a lot of us have observed this that there’s sort of this culture, at least, at least in the United States, as to whistleblowing that they’re either heroes or villains. And I think a lot of us believe that one of the best things, psychologically, for whistleblowers is if we could normalize it. They don’t want to be either. And I think that that is probably one of the things that they get caught up in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is in this, in this sort of dilemma. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We saw with the MeToo movement that a lot of this is- the psychological journey can also involve gaslighting and starting to doubt yourself. I think that’s what we see with Sergeant Steele is that he believed all of these things to be true. And then his reality started to change. And then that really makes you start to doubt yourself. And, and the circling the wagons phenomenon that Poppy talked about just makes this worse, is that everybody else is trying to suggest that this is not how it happened. And you start to then that makes even more self-doubt, which can be a very vicious cycle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s interesting. There’s some studies that talk a lot about what happens to whistleblowers. Because of the pressures they lose their friends, they lose their social network. And so the New England Journal of Medicine did a study on pharmaceutical whistleblowers who expose the pharmaceutical industry. You know, they’re seeing higher incidences of divorce, of depression, anxiety, substance abuse. I think these are all outward indicators of tools that- and the occasion of what happens when, you know, you expose something and then, instead of it being corrected, it gets covered up. And then you yourself, as the whistleblower, often become persona non grata. The retaliation is done by your employer as a way to send a signal to other whistleblowers, ‘You shouldn’t do this.’ So your sort of almost made, basically made an example of. So I think all of these are, you know, is an environment that’s just incredibly difficult. And it adds insult to injury. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You mentioned the MeToo movement, and I think one of the things that we have found in our reporting as well, is how, you know, discrimination, misogyny, racism also become tools to enforce the code of silence and to keep people from speaking up. I mean, I know as a woman, that feeling of like, oh, I’ve got to be cool to get along. You know, I’m not going to like, rock the boat or push back if somebody makes an inappropriate comment — you know, taken to a much more serious level, obviously, with Valentino Rodriguez. But does that translate to other contexts outside the prison as well? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. Unfortunately, we see this a lot. It is rarer than any of us would like to see female whistleblowers, to see whistleblowers of color. And so much of that has to do with that mentality you just mentioned. That, you know, ‘we’re trained to get along,’ and we’re trained that ‘to get along’ means to value the traditional workplace culture of white cis men. And that obviously is amplified in the prison context. But that’s true everywhere. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I- this is my completely uneducated guess, but I do feel like we’re starting to see a shift there. And certainly starting to see more female whistleblowers just coming in the door. And I do wonder how much of that is the MeToo movement. I wonder how much of that is people just being fed up with that attitude. But it still is very much a problem. And, you know, as Mary said, we have this tradition of we either see whistleblowers as heroes or villains, but either way, it’s oftentimes this sort of mentality of, you know, the single man standing alone on the hilltop shouting, you know, shouting the truth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s not true. Women have been whistleblowers forever. People of color have been whistleblowers forever. They have found other ways to make sure that that information gets out. You know, some have been very public about it. Erin Brockovich is, you know, maybe the quintessential example on some level. But, and other people do it in different ways. They help their community. They make sure that the information gets out via a whisper network, what have you. There’s all sorts of strategies to make sure that the truth gets told. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But when it comes to this sort of ‘in-group outgroup mentality’ of making sure that you were sort of getting along in a confined space, whether that’s a workplace, whether that’s a prison, whether that’s whatever it might be, there certainly are added incentives to put your head down, do your work, ignore what is oftentimes right in front of your face as a wrong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I agree, the power differential is something that is really significant, right? In terms of you see, a lot of studies have shown that women and people of color are more likely to leave an organization than to report. And I do think that MeToo started to show us a way that, if we can create a solidarity among whistleblowers, I think that’s one of the strongest way we can encourage, reporting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I would love to see us have more avenues to find ways to bring whistleblowers together. So it isn’t, just that lone wolf as Poppy said. But that there are multiple people linking arms, saying that this happened to them as well. And then you really do have to pay, give it more credence than if it’s just one sole person. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Ad break]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think within, you know, the California Department of Corrections and going back to the policy of their, you know, ban on the code of silence, there’s been an unintended consequence, at least according — or maybe it’s intended, I don’t know — but at least according to the correctional officers that we spoke to, which is that if you don’t report right away, you can then get in trouble when you report later. Like, if you see an incident happen, excessive use of force, maybe you’re fearful to come forward initially, and then you- you gather that internal fortitude and you decide to make that report, you can often then get disciplined for, you know, holding to the code of silence thus far. And it creates a disincentive to come forward rather than, you know, the stated purpose of this policy, which is to create an incentive to come forward. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s such a challenge. You know, we have clients who come forward sometimes and tell us about information that’s many, many years old. And there’s lots of reasons why they might suddenly wake up one day and say, ‘Now’s the time. I have to tell someone.’ Of course, it’s probably better in terms of trying to solve problems, when people come to us with fresh information, we can usually do more with it. But that doesn’t mean that that’s a less valid whistleblower simply because they waited. It usually means that there’s something else going on in their lives that prevented them from coming forward first. And we need to recognize that in how we design our policies and how we think through this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, we’ve heard from a number of correctional officers since the podcast came out saying that just hearing these stories made them feel like, you know, they might have an opportunity to speak up. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And that’s, you know, really heartening, obviously, in terms of just the rewarding work of getting these voices out into the world. But I’ve also talked to correctional officers who have, you know, tried to get whistleblower protections, and often they want to do it before they blow the whistle. They want to know, like, ‘Oh, I’m going to be protected ahead of time. Like, where do I go to, you know, get my whistleblower card or whatever.’ \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And, you know, from my understanding, it really doesn’t work like that. Like it’s very based on, you know, retroactive retaliation. And if you can prove that you were retaliated against, maybe you can get some retroactive protection. But can either of you address that issue? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there really, it can be very difficult to prove retaliation. Sort of the statistics of the ability of someone to succeed in a retaliation claim in the United States are very dire. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re not great. And I think part of that is because it’s very difficult to prove that you were retaliated against for speaking up as compared to some- any other reason that someone can pretextual come up with, right? Like, oh, you’re chronically late, even though your chronic lateness was something that everyone tolerated for years. But until you spoke up, then all of a sudden that becomes a problem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there something that needs to change in the law to make that an easier argument to make, or to, you know, the lower the standard of proof that you have to reach in order to prove that retaliation happened? What are some fixes that you see for that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, it’s interesting, in Europe there’s now something called the European Whistleblowing Directive. And one of the changes that they made that I would love to see being made across all of the various retaliation protections laws, is this burden- shifting the burden of proof. That the burden initially, and for too long, remains on the plaintiff. To have to prove that, you know, they were retaliated against because they spoke up. And if we can reverse- shift that burden of proof and put it on the employer, actually, to prove that, you know, they did do it for a legitimate reason, I think that would be one concrete way that we could improve the odds that people could succeed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the, you know, looking domestically, I think the SEC also provides a really excellent model here where the SEC takes very seriously any accusations of retaliation related to someone who has reported securities fraud to the, to the agency. And they take it very seriously and they, you know, will tell employers at every opportunity that they take it very seriously. And that public messaging has been extremely important and protective. And then oftentimes it then puts whistleblowers in the somewhat uncomfortable position of having to decide where they’re going to publicly declare to the company that they, in fact, did report to the SEC, because then that does provide them some level of protection. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That only applies to some small subset of the whistle blowing world. But there’s no reason that has to be true. There’s lots of other ways to try to build off of that same level of protection that we see. There’s other agencies that are involved and whistle-blowing in all sorts of forms, we have- you know, OSHA is involved in many of these cases. There’s- we have lots of agencies here. So I think there’s lots of other strategies to try to build in more of a protection. But it does. It always starts with culture. Right? And that’s culture both from the government side of telling companies and telling organizations what’s important. And then of course, it starts on the company side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I think the- the long tail of fear that correctional officers experience after- even after they leave… Like, they’ve retired for years, but they’re still afraid to speak up. They don’t know if their pension can be taken away. They don’t know what power the institution still has over them. There’s also, you know, obviously just their their friendship groups and their culture that they’re afraid of losing. But there’s just this very long tail of oppression, I would say, that they experience psychologically and that it’s not entirely dissipated when they leave the prison at all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. And you know, so, so many times prisons, right, are and very small towns. And so even if you’re not working at the prison, you’re still- most other people in the town are going to be. And that then means there’s really no way to sort of escape that. But of course, you shouldn’t have to. You shouldn’t have to lose all your friends and community simply because you’re willing to take a stand and tell the truth. That should never be a consequence of telling the truth. And- but of course it acts as a disincentive for coming forward, for speaking out against the pack, for what have you, which can only be remedied by changing the culture, can only be remedied by encouraging people to see that as a good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Sukey, you’re right that the retaliation doesn’t stop when they leave the prison. And there’s sort of a long tail of retaliation, right? Which is often when you go to that next job, unfortunately that next employer will often call for a recommendation or a reference to your existing employer. And, we often see that even if they’re not doing it directly, there’s word of mouth that, ‘You don’t want this person. This is, this person is disloyal. They, you know, they’ve exposed us and created all this difficulty. They’re a troublemaker and you shouldn’t hire them.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so that certainly, you know, in the case of my whistleblower client that was featured in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New Yorker\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, that was really ultimately his undoing, right? Is that he ended up, because he couldn’t leave the, the part of Florida where he was practicing. He would get interviews and get to a certain place, and then in, in getting his next job position. And when it got to that reference point and they’d say like, ‘Oh, he seems great.’ And you get all these signals. And then all of a sudden when it came to closing the deal, they would never hire him. So that ends up in you draining your 401K, you now don’t have, you know, you’re no longer gainfully employed, and now you’re blocklisted or blacklisted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that is one of the other problems that just makes it, again, incredibly insidious that… I always talk about there’s this ‘Scarlet W’ on your chest that’s emblazoned. And that you may want to put it down, you may even want to put down the mantle of whistleblower, but often you’re not allowed to. And that is a cross that you are bearing again and again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, one of the things that really struck me just doing this reporting is the disconnect between the formal institutional stance, which says, you know, ‘The code of silence is banned. And we want, you know, we take all reports of employee misconduct very seriously, and we want people to come forward.’ And then that what actually happens in response to that. And I’m just wondering if either of you can speak to… is there a policy change that can fix this? Or because there is this disconnect already between policy and action, you know, do we need a different intervention? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a cultural problem much more than a policy problem. Though the policies obviously are then tied together because if you know that the company’s policy is that they’re going to, you know, they’re going to take every whistleblower complaint with this huge grain of salt, they’re not going to start from the presumption that the whistleblower is correct. They’re not going to start from the presumption, which is usually true, that the whistleblower is reporting this because they love the company or the organization or, you know, the group. They’re doing it out of love. They’re doing it because they want it to be better. They’ve, you know, they found a problem and they want to fix the problem, and they want to do it before someone from the outside finds out about the problem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That so often is what the energy is that our clients bring when they’re coming forward. And what they’re met with is this culture of silence there. You know, you talk into a black box, you never hear what happens again. All too often, our clients say to us that we are the first person to ever listen to them about what they’re talking about. And that’s sad because we are never someone’s first call. We really aren’t. They’re always trying to get some change to happen before they resort to calling a whistleblower attorney — as as they should be, quite honestly. And if smart organizations and smart companies would just listen to their whistleblowers, they would put us out of a job. But that’s good. That would be better for everybody. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I agree, and there’s some really great empirical data and research coming out of George Washington University and the University of Utah that really reinforces this idea that whistleblowers are actually your best risk management tool. They’re the canaries in the coal mine that actually help you see a problem before we’re all overtaken by noxious fumes. And this research really basically underscores that companies that actually see whistleblowers in this way as, as, you know, people who can help mitigate risks and deal with problems before they metastasize into something like a big public relations scandal… If you use them in this way, it actually allows companies to be more profitable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think one of the biggest things that needs to happen is just an education on who whistleblowers really are. As Poppy said, whistleblowers are- not only are they not disloyal, they are your \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">most\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> loyal employees because it takes a lot of intestinal fortitude to be the type of employee who is going to tell you the hard truths at considerable potential risk to themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for coming into the studio and just lending your expertise and your empathy to this conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s been a real pleasure to be on this podcast. It’s a real testament that the only way we’re going to get change is, is to, you know, point to really great investigative journalists like this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. It’s, it’s a horrible topic, but it brings great joy to talk about it because it’s so important and so misunderstood, quite honestly, I think, so much about the process of whistleblowing. And so every opportunity to be able to talk about it and really go in depth as you are in this podcast series is just invaluable. And it’s invaluable for the future whistleblowers, for the next person who finds themself in an uncomfortable situation where they really need to speak up and they don’t know what it means and they don’t know how. You know, the education of learning what that process looks like is something we all need to work on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, that was Poppy Alexander and Mary Inman. They are also working right now with federal legislators to try and introduce a bill that would provide mental health support for whistleblowers. We have a link to Mary and Poppy’s website in our episode description, along with other resources for whistleblowers. Please continue to send tips or feedback about the series to On Our Watch at K-Q-E-D dot O-R-G. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was hosted by me, Sukey Lewis. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is also KQED’s Director of Podcasts. It was produced, scored, and cut by Chris Egusa. Final mixing by Christopher Beale. Original music by Ramtin Arablouei, including our theme song. Additional music from APM Music and Audio Network. Funding for On Our Watch is provided in part by Arnold Ventures and the California Endowment. Thank you to Katie Sprenger, our Podcast Operations Manager, our Managing Editor of News and Enterprise, Otis, R. Taylor, Jr., Ethan Toven-Lindsay, our Vice President of News, and KQED Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And thanks to all of you for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After his son’s death, Valentino Rodriguez Sr. waited for the warden of New Folsom prison to call him. That call never came. In our season finale, we walk through the gates of New Folsom to ask the warden for answers. We also get a rare glimpse inside the world of correctional officer discipline and hear from Sgt. Kevin Steele in his own words.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC7467271989\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mental health resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are currently in crisis, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAMHSA National Help Line\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://988lifeline.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/help\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) Helpline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.hhs.gov/programs/prevention-and-wellness/mental-health-substance-abuse/index.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">US Health and Human Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://warmline.org/warmdir.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warmline Directory\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Whistleblower resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://www.thelamplighterproject.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Lamplighter Project\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://thesignalsnetwork.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Signals Network\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://empowr.us/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">EMPOWR\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblowersofamerica.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whistleblowers of America\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://whistleblower.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Government Accountability Project\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblowers.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">National Whistleblower Center\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://whistlebloweraid.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whistleblower Aid\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism was a key partner in making Season 2 of On Our Watch.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The records obtained for this project are part of the\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> California Reporting Project\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a coalition of news organizations in California. If you have tips or feedback about this series please reach out to us at \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"mailto:onourwatch@kqed.org\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">onourwatch@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Producer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we start, just wanted to give you a heads-up that this episode references discriminatory language and discusses suicide. If you or someone you know needs support, we’ve got links to resources in the episode description. We’ve also included resources for whistleblowers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After his son, Valentino Rodriguez, died in October 2020, Val Sr. had waited for someone from the prison to call him, to acknowledge his son’s passing. A few months went by, and when that call didn’t come, he sent off an email.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am Val’s dad. These are pictures of my wife and Val’s brother.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Attached to it were photos of Valentino on the day he graduated from the academy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I remember his graduation day, how proud he was. I remember the speech from that podium as clear as the day he was born.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The email was addressed to the head of CDCR, along with some of the people that Val Sr. felt were critical in what had happened to Valentino.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It could have been avoided when he asked for help but was swept under the rug to protect those involved.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Including his boss, Sergeant David Anderson…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">His sergeant that was witness to so many abusive texts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The chief deputy warden, Gena Jones, and the warden, Jeff Lynch-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My son was also left with your betrayal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… the boss of the whole institution. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have not had so much as a knock on the door, an apology, or any acknowledgement of his death.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Val Sr. did get a response to this email from the head of CDCR at the time. She passed on her condolences and said the agency was investigating his son’s case, but there was only silence from the warden. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then, in March of last year, about eight months into our investigation, we got some news. We were gonna be able to go on a rare press tour at New Folsom Prison, and talk to the warden face to face. Val Sr. sent us a list of questions he wanted us to ask. Like, who had leaked information about the warden’s private meeting with Valentino? Why had the warden banned Kevin Steele from the prison? And why hadn’t he ever called? Julie, my reporting partner, also reached out to Valentino’s widow, Mimy Rodriguez, to tell her the news.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re going to the prison next week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mimy Rodriguez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We asked for a sit-down with the warden, and we were told no. Um, but then we were told that he’ll be there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mimy Rodriguez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I’m getting ready for that. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mimy Rodriguez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How… That’s exciting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Got any questions for the warden?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mimy Rodriguez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wanna know what was going through his head when he found out Val passed. I wanna know what he felt when he sat across from Valentino. How did you feel when you found out? Did you get sick? Did you throw up? I… these things, I just… they probably seem minuscule or silly, but I w-… I just wanna know… was it just another officer for him? I just wanna know. Did you care? Did it matter to you? Do you remember his face the way I do? Or his laugh, or his gap teeth, or his love for ketchup? Do you remember his reports? Do you remember how hard he worked to make you happy, the way he worked hard to make his parents happy? Or, are you just gonna disregard that and say, “He was a great officer,” and give me some generic answer? I want him to be honest, and I want him to respect the people that come in and out of that prison.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Theme music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As we prepared to walk through the gates of New Folsom Prison, we were quite literally now going to be following in the footsteps of Officer Valentino Rodriguez and Sergeant Kevin Steele, and I kept thinking about their words to each other on the last day of Valentino’s life. “There are two sides over there.” Which side of the prison would we get to see? I’m Sukey Lewis, and this is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On Our Watch\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Season Two: New Folsom.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Automated:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In one mile, turn left onto Folsom Prison Road.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, we’re just passing past the sign for Folsom State Prison.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s… \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> we’re… it’s actually this lovely pastoral scene. You have this-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a beautiful spring day as Julie and I drive up the winding road in the Sierra Nevada foothills toward New Folsom Prison. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, frick.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just I’m just… I don’t usually stress out, but I haven’t been in a prison for a while.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm, yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here we go, CSP-SAC, and yeah. You’re feeling it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, I’m feeling it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie’s bracing herself to go into this place where we’ve been invited, but we’re not exactly welcome, and where everything we see is gonna be tightly controlled.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, yeah, here they are.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We park and then walk up to the outer security checkpoint of this huge facility. There’s a reporting team from the LA Times here today as well for the press tour.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice to meet you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LA Times Reporter:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The LA Times.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice to meet you. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sources have told us that the prison has been prepping for this for days, and the entourage that comes out to greet us is impressive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the biggest I’ve ever seen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">About a dozen people, who each introduce themselves, starting with the biggest of the bigwigs here today, the associate director for all of California’s high-security prisons, who then introduces the man we’ve been waiting so long to speak with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Associate Director:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of ’em, and, uh, this is Jeff Warden’s prison, er, uh, Jeff Lynch’s prison. (laughing) \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jeff Lynch, warden, CSP Sacramento.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warden Jeff Lynch, he’s a tall man with a broad chest, light brown hair. He looks a little like the actor Jeff Daniels, and today, he’s wearing a suit jacket, a pink shirt, and a tie. Down the line from him, we meet two associate wardens, two captains, a lieutenant, and people from healthcare and public relations.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, cool, um, we may have to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> ask you your names again along the way. That’s a lot to remember.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tour Guide:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, the, the plan is-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We walk past some staff residences and lower security areas that are empty right now and then under the eye of the tall, blue tower, where we know a guard sits with a Mini-14 rifle looking out over everything. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…Chain link fence on either side, big mirrors overhead, and there’s two little, kind of, windows. This is the same process that correctional staff go through when they come to work every day. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once inside the main complex, off to my left, I see a gray cement building with those very narrow windows. On the side of it, there’s a letter and a number: B8.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so that looks like the B8 unit… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The unit where Luis Giovanny Aguilar was killed in the day room. That’s not part of today’s tour. Instead, they’re taking us to what’s called the short-term restricted housing unit. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…And there’s short term restrictive housing kinda to the front and the left.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the new version of the SHU, or solitary confinement — the place where Dion Green was held after the murder and where he says officers were spreading rumors about him to get him killed. Julie’s walking next to the warden as they go inside.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you think this prison is… is this prison dangerous any more than others?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It has days where it’s had dangerous events.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and then, it’s had many days where it hasn’t. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s what we’re being shown: a calm day. There’s a class going on in a treatment room, where men talk to a counselor about regulating their emotions. But I notice, even as that class is going on, these men are chained to the chairs they sit in. Next, the warden shows us the solitary cages outside the unit. Officially, they’re called IEYs, or individual exercise yards, but incarcerated people refer to them as the dog cages. The entourage of CDCR staff and reporters chat and laugh behind me as I approach a person looking out through the fencing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m a reporter with KQED Public Radio. Are you, um, down to talk to me today or no?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patrick Anthony Bradley:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Depending on what.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just to ask you how your days is going and what your experience is here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patrick Anthony Bradley:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I’ll talk.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. Um, what’s your name?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patrick Anthony Bradley:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, Patrick Anthony Bradley.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bradley says he’s been at this prison for six years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patrick Anthony Bradley:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re gonna paint the pretty picture like it’s all good, but it’s, it’s really not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmm. What’s the, the picture that you would paint?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patrick Anthony Bradley:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is, this is a terrible \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patrick Anthony Bradley:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is terrible. Like, this is a terrible… it’s inhumane for anybody, for a, a, a patient, a inmate, a human being. Just conduct is disgusting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s kind of a strange scene. Like, I’m standing in between two worlds — the world Bradley lives in that’s bounded by the fence between us, a reality in his telling of corruption and darkness, and the world behind me represented by the warden and all the other prison officials standing just feet away, who repeatedly tell us their mission is safety and rehabilitation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patrick Anthony Bradley:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They might, you know, clean, clean today, you know, make it look good, polish and all that, but it’s just a terrible place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm, yeah. Um, were you here when, the, the homicide happened in B8?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patrick Anthony Bradley:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, probably.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patrick Anthony Bradley:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s probably something you should be asking the feds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patrick Anthony Bradley:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know what I mean? So…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bradley raises his eyebrows meaningfully. I thank him for his time and turn around to try and get some more of my questions in front of the warden. One of my biggest questions was about use of force, what we’d seen in the data, and the whole reason we’d started investigating New Folsom.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warden Lynch, I was gonna ask you. I know that their… like, use of force here at, um, CSP-SAC is a lot higher than any other prison in the state, and I was just wondering if you know kind of why that is or if it has something to do with the population here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re part of the high-security mission, which is a conglomerate of all of-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was expecting Lynch to give me some kind of explanation about how this prison is one of 10 high-security prisons, which means they’ve got people who’ve committed really serious crimes and have mental health issues. And he started with that, but then, Lynch totally surprised me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re probably pretty similar with the number of incidents for the mission that we belong in. If you-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No. It’s, like, 30% higher.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Than, uh, where?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All the other level fours.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, the, the data that, uh, we most recently looked at… Hey, Dana.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The warden calls over the then press secretary, Dana Simas.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The data that we were looking at for, uh, the use of force?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What about it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, I was just wan-… I was just wanting, uh, to see if he had th-… uh, understanding of, like, why it’s so much higher here than everywhere else.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, that’s not really the case. Where are you seeing that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, in the data that CDCR gave me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, uh, you mean on the CompStat data?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, um, I would need to verify-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… ’cause I’ve looked at the data, and the data shows that, at SAC, the use of force rates are actually really comparable to other institutions that have this same level of population.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. All right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After this tour, we double-checked our numbers and brought in help from a statistician in UC Berkeley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What they found is that the disparity was actually even greater than I’d thought. Between 2009 and 2023, the last year we have data for, officers at this prison used force at a rate almost 40% higher than any other prison in the state. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over the course of months, we followed up repeatedly with CDCR about these numbers. At first, a spokesperson said the agency couldn’t confirm our analysis. When we asked for their analysis showing that New Folsom was in line with other high-security prisons, they didn’t respond. When we asked how the warden could be unaware of what an outlier his institution was, they didn’t respond. When we asked why there were so many more of these troubling incidents that we talked about earlier in this series, like what happened to the men Kevin Steele interviewed in the hospital, they didn’t respond. But as we continued on this tour, the warden assured me…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We, we look at it all the time and are always, um, aware of a lot of the, uh, the incidents that happen here, and we’ve got policies we follow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I move on to some of my questions about protocols that had seemed to allow the B8 homicide to happen, starting with their housing protocol regarding documented enemies like Dion Green and Michael Brit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you comment on, like, why Michael Britt was housed with Dion Green in B8 when that stabbing happened?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Restricted housing in general, and I can’t comment on Michael Britt, um, but restricted housing in general has the ability to confine inmates in, in, uh, secure areas that if enemy concerns existed wouldn’t ordinarily be, um, exposed to each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">His answer is kind of jargony, but what he’s saying is that really high-security housing units like B8 are set up so that enemies shouldn’t ever be able to get at each other, but he doesn’t address the failures that made that attack possible. And so, I follow up, trying to understand what happened after the attack. Why weren’t the three guys who’d tried to kill Brit separated either?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Say a stabbing or an assault happens, and it’s coordinated between people, is it policy to then separate them from each other?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, I don’t know that there’s an actual policy that says… Uh, are you saying between the enemies?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Between in- inmates, so they are, like, coordinating, if they coordinate an assault on another inmate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know that there’s a policy that requires that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, um, but it-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That would fall under saf-… normal safety and security, um, classifications.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Dana Simas stepping in here again. She says, yes, maybe there’s not a specific policy that says this, but in general, yes, they separate crime partners. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And how do you deal with that if they’re, like, you know, all high security or all, you know, um, need solitary housing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There could be a different section, could be separated amongst different tiers. It… couple of different ways you could probably do it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. All righty. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CDCR declined to answer our follow-up questions about why Anthony Rodriguez, Cody Taylor, and Dion Green were not separated. But from what these officials are saying, it sure sounded like they never should have been in a position to murder Luis Giovanny Aguilar. But once again, it’s like we’re in different worlds, and it feels like the warden is saying that the world that I’ve seen — in incident reports I’ve read and heard about from numerous incarcerated people and correctional officers — just doesn’t exist. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s tough in a situation like this to get all the questions in that you wanna ask. It’s loud, and we each have a minder attached to us, but at one point during the tour, Julie is able to bring up Valentino with the warden.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have been talking to the father of, uh, Valentino Rodriguez Jr., who was a correctional officer here. And I know you probably can’t get into specifics, but I’m wondering if you could just tell me, as a person, how you felt when you heard that he had died.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s, it’s sad when anybody passes away.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did you know him personally?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie says the family, including Valentino’s dad, have questions for him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Probably wouldn’t be able to comment on any, um, particular cases.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, he never heard from you at the prison, he said. Is that normal? Like, if somebody passes away, would you normally reach out to the family? Or, is that not-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, I’d prefer not to comment on-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… um, at this time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She asks the warden if he’ll sit down with us in a better setting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve been reporting on prisons for a long time. I try to be fair, and I feel it… like it’s unfair when we don’t hear your side.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, but I think we can… whatever is fair within policy, we can do whatever we need to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll follow up with you on it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. Okay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the moment, it seems like the warden might be willing to follow up with us later on. Then, after a walk through the restricted housing unit, they start to lead us back out toward the gates we came in through. I ask where the ISU is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ISU is, uh, above B Facility.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Above B Facility. So-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… up there in the hill, kind of out of sight?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, it’s, like, right over there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">150 yards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The warden points off vaguely toward one of the buildings. From the outside, it doesn’t look like much — this place where the police force of the institution is based, where Sergeant Kevin Steele spent six years and where he grew more and more concerned about staff misconduct being ignored. And the place where Valentino Rodriguez spent his weekends writing reports and booking evidence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know. We got, we got a ton.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As we pass back out through the checkpoint and under the blue tower, the warden seems to visibly relax the closer we get to the main entrance gate.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What to you is the most significant policy change that has happened? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In my career? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The warden thinks about it as we walk. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s been a lot of significant things, and it’s real easy to focus on what’s most current, which for us, over the past six months has been, uh, the, uh, the body worn cameras and the stationary cameras.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CDCR was actually ordered by a judge to implement body cams at certain other prisons as part of an ongoing class action lawsuit against the agency, and they started rolling them out here at New Folsom too. I’ve talked to incarcerated people who say the body cams can help, but they’re not an easy fix because the institution can refuse to review the footage. And they sometimes delete it long before they’re supposed to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve also talked to officers who say the cameras can help them justify their actions if they’re called into question. As we head toward the outer gate, I’ve been waiting for the right moment to ask the warden about Sergeant Kevin Steele, but I misunderstand how long the tour is. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nope. This is about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">May have been a-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… misunderstanding. Okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we’ll make sure you guys are all checked out on equipment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think we’ve got more time and suddenly we’re by the gate, so I turn to the warden. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know you had a, you had a pretty high profile, uh, officer suicide here with Kevin, officer, Sergeant Kevin Steele, and I’m just wondering kind of how you processed that and how you support people to process that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Say it one more time. How I process and how what? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Y- how, and how other, how you support other correctional staff when their colleague has committed suicide.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We provide all the resources that we can. Um, how I process it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is the sa-… It’s, it is sad when there’s any staff death, um, and a lot of the examples, I think back on time, you know, a lot of the s- not a lot, but the staff that I’ve been connected to, uh, particularly at this prison that have gone through it, I mean, it, it weighs on all of us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The warden says they provide many services to officers, including peer support, and that he really understands the importance of taking care of your mental health. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My, uh, my message has always been it’s hard to be a good partner, a good father, a good spouse or a good son or daughter if you’re not taking care of yourself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once again, I’m having this moment of disconnect between what the warden is saying and what I’ve heard from officers — that they can’t trust that peer support will stay private, that they have to take time off unpaid when they’re struggling, or pay out of pocket to attend PTSD seminars. And that when you call the state employee hotline to try and access therapy, you still have to wait weeks to get an appointment to talk to someone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did you know that, um, Sergeant Steele was suffering m- with his mental health? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I knew that he took some time off work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And do y- why was he banned from this institution? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know that’s something that I can, uh, comment on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can’t? Okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I try one more time to ask the warden what he did when he found out that Steele had died, but Dana Simas steps in again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s an inappropriate question to comment on-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whoa…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… a specific person, specific case. Um, it’s, it’s not appropriate for us to do that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She has us check out our equipment and we say goodbye. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you, Mr. Lynch. I appreciate it. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice to meet you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sounds of wind and walking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What time is it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know it’s only noon. I thought it was gonna-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I thought we would be there forever.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I thought we would have more time.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The two and a half hours we were in there felt much longer and not long enough at the same time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s interesting, like, just kind of standing out here, and you, like, look around, and you’ve got the beautiful oak trees in leaf-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… and the green rolling hills, and the architecture of that opening gate, you know, while it’s, uh, you know, cement and, and somewhat brutalistic, it also has a little bit of aesthetic beauty to it, and, like, the deeper in you get, like, the less beauty there is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Standing back outside the gates, back in a world where no one is looking down on us with deadly weapons, where we aren’t surrounded by razor wire and concrete, I can feel something in me that’s been clenched… relax. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s just, like, the s- gradual stripping away. Like, talking to correctional officers who talked about walking through this gate every day, and, that, like, each gate further in, the mental kind of armor that they would kind of have to put on more and more and more. Um, and then it’s like, you’re a, you’re a human being out here, and in there, you’re not. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you’ve probably guessed, that sit down interview we’d asked for with the warden never happened. We also sent a detailed list of questions about the institutional response to Valentino’s allegations, but a spokesperson for CDCR declined to answer those questions and said that wardens can’t comment on personnel matters. But lucky for us, that was not the end of things, because while Warden Jeff Lynch didn’t have to answer our questions, he did have to answer someone else’s. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Ad break]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did you ever, uh, meet with Officer Rodriguez? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. And where did you meet? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In my office. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Warden Jeff Lynch testifying at an evidentiary hearing that was held in the summer of 2022. If you remember, some officers had gotten disciplined over the offensive group texts in Valentino’s phone, and two men were even fired… including Daniel Garland, the man who’d sent Valentino that video of his son at the gym threatening to slap him. Garland along with three other officers had appealed their discipline. At this hearing, an administrative law judge is gonna listen to that appeal and decide if their discipline should stand or be overturned. The warden is called as a witness for CDCR to talk about what Valentino had told him in that meeting the week before he died. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Heads up, this testimony references slurs, but we have bleeped them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He indicated he was referred to at times as a-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Please. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… as a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Um, he said, uh, the use of… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Go ahead. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… the w- the word \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> was used up there often. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer personnel matters are usually confidential, but we were able to get these recordings because of a new state-wide transparency law that unsealed records related to discriminatory behavior by law enforcement. This would give us a rare look inside this process, and we’d get to hear from some key figures in Valentino’s story about the events leading up to his death.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did he ever indicate if he had any physical manifestations as a result of these problems he was having with the other ISU staff? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think, uh, he had mentioned that, uh, he wasn’t sleeping well at home. He was throwing up a lot at work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warden Lynch says he asked Valentino to write up a statement with all his allegations. So far, this was all stuff we pretty much knew about. But then, the lawyer for the officers finally asks the warden about something we’d only heard about from Valentino’s wife Mimy — the allegations that the ISU squad, the police force for the prison, had been dirty. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, he made quite a few allegations, did he not? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, a- not only, uh, just about the way he was treated in ISU, but other more serious allegations, correct? Including about officers in ISU planting drugs on inmates? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, objections. Relevance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s CDCR’s lawyer objecting. They don’t want to go down this road. I’m not totally sure why the officer’s lawyer brings this up either. This hearing is not about those allegations, but because she asks about it, we finally got this little window into the warden’s actions after he met with Valentino. The judge allows the question.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Judge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll allow the question. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And there being uncontrolled weapons in ISU?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uncontrolled weapons are weapons that have been seized, but not yet booked into evidence. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you directed, um, I believe it was… Uh, I don’t know if he was a sergeant or lieutenant at that time, but \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And, um, I believe Lieutenant \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> to search the ISU office?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A little later in the hearing, Officer Martin Fong, who’d been in the ISU and who’d gotten a pay cut for his part in some of the ugly group texts was also asked about this search. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Martin Fong:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We came into the office, normal morning, just as, you know, we’re just kinda w- warming up in the morning and then, uh-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says it was the day before Valentino died. The ISU officers and the chief deputy warden, Gena Jones, came into the office. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Martin Fong:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was kind of weird because usually \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> doesn’t pop in that early but it’s like, “Hey, whatever.” And she’s, she looks at me and Jordan, and she goes, “I need to talk to you and you.” I’m like, “Oh.” Like, “This is out of the ordinary” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fong says at first he thinks maybe they’re going to get some praise for a recent case, but then Jones pulls them out into the hallway.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Martin Fong:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just basically says, “Hey, I wanna, I want you to hear from me first, but your desk… Uh, I had Lieutenant \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and Lieutenant \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> search your desk. There’s allegations, uh, that there was weapons and… \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[inaudible]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> there’s phones and narcotics in your desk.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another staff member had made these claims against them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Martin Fong:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was like, “Why are they doing?” Like, “I have a target on my back now or what?” But they weren’t just trying to get me removed from the unit. They were, they were trying to get me fired, or, you know, like, that’s some serious allegations. And so that devastated me ’cause of it, it, it challenged my, or it pretty much trying to discredit my character and everything I’ve worked for. And I got emotional, and I broke down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A weapon and some metal were found in his desk. We don’t know exactly what this weapon looked like, but I want to be clear here that from the context, it seems like this isn’t a gun or a baton or a weapon officers would use, but what’s called by CDCR an “inmate manufactured weapon.” So a shiv or something like that, that would usually be stored in evidence after being confiscated. But this weapon, Fong says, had a different purpose. He kept it in his desk as a show-and-tell item. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Martin Fong:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have a lot of tours that came up there and there’s a shadow board that has weapons, but s- sometimes to actually hold and, and look at a weapon, it, it’s a tangible item. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The warden says, even though a weapon was found, he believed Fong’s explanation of why it was there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that you understood that Officer Fong was using it for some sort of training event?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was my understanding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and so, so based on your understanding, it was not improper for Officer Fong to have this weapon in his desk? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, based upon what was reported to me, um, but I didn’t know the, the origin of the weapon either.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I ran this by the former sergeant who you heard from last episode who knew a lot about internal affairs. I wanted to see if this made sense to him — to have an improvised weapon in your desk for training purposes. He said it did not. If you wanted a weapon to use for training, you would check it out of evidence. There would be a paper trail. Ultimately, the search did not result in any reprimand or discipline for officers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, in this hearing, no one followed up to ask the warden our biggest questions. Why had he chosen this as the way to handle Valentino’s allegations in the first place? If substantiated, evidence of planted drugs or weapons could have massive implications, from tainted criminal cases to charges for the warden’s own cops. But the warden didn’t immediately call in internal affairs, special agents who might have set up a sting operation or pulled phone records. Instead, Lynch has his own in-house people, the direct supervisors of the officers in question, go in and do this strangely casual search of their desks. By making this choice, the warden, also whether knowingly or not, likely exposed Valentino as a whistleblower. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hours before Mimy Rodriguez got home and found her husband on the bathroom floor, one of the last texts he sent said, “It’s out now that I told on the team.” After Valentino died, and Val Sr. filed a complaint with internal affairs and handed over his son’s phone, a special agent did start looking into some things. Their investigation didn’t substantiate the claims of planted drugs and weapons, but it’s not clear that they really looked into those claims. The report does note one more thing about Valentino’s meeting with the warden and the subsequent search that makes no sense. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Internal Affairs asked the warden to turn over any notes or memos about these two events. The warden told them he couldn’t find any documentation of either event. \u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Listening through these hearings, we also got to finally hear from one of the people that Val Sr. held responsible for how Valentino had been treated in the ISU — Sergeant David Anderson, Valentino’s boss, the guy who’d been on some of the text threads and who Valentino said had threatened him. He’d been called to testify by the lawyer for the officers, and she asks him what was meant by that nickname they’d given Valentino: half-patch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Anderson:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was more of a term of endearment, um, like a brother or a friend, a close friend is the term that, uh, they used it in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Objection, speculation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Judge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sustained. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The lawyer then asks Anderson if he heard other terms used — homophobic slurs, racial slurs, and his answer each time is-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Anderson:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Not that I can recall. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But when CDCR’s lawyer cross-examines him, she confronts him with his prior testimony to internal affairs, in which he admitted hearing these terms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Anderson:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It must’ve slipped my mind. I apologize for that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So in fact, you heard Officer Garland use the term \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">–\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Anderson:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… in the ISU office? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Anderson:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And during that same office of internal affairs interview, you admitted to hearing Officer Garland use the term \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> in the office.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Anderson:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What page is that on? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you could just close that and- if you don’t recall?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Anderson:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t recall. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Anderson:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s one I… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and if I could direct your attention to page 73. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Anderson:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">73?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’m going to direct your attention to lines 13 through 19. Special Agent \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> says, “Earlier we talked about the term \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> with an A at the end.” You respond, “Yeah.” He then says, “Did you hear staff use that?” You respond, “Yeah.” “Who did you hear?” And you respond, “Officer Garland.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Anderson:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, yes. Now that I’m reading this, it does, uh, I’m able to remember that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We still don’t know if the department imposed any discipline on Anderson. He could’ve been one of the people who got reprimanded in connection with Valentino’s case for failure to report misconduct, but if so… those details aren’t public.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We know from employment records that Anderson was promoted to lieutenant at New Folsom in July of 2022, the month after he gave this testimony. During this hearing, the lawyer for the officers also called each of them to speak in their own defense. And I’m gonna focus on Daniel Garland’s testimony, since you’ve heard the most about his actions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How long were you with the CDCR? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Garland:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just under 19 years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right, and, um, how did you get into corrections? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Garland:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My brothers were, uh, were inmates. My mother and my father were locked up, so I’ve always had some kind of connection to corrections. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Garland says getting a job as an officer changed his life, and this personal history gave him a unique empathy to do that job. But he says it was also hard work. He was exposed to terrible things and assaulted, and he and Valentino were there for each other in the harsh environment of the prison. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Garland:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was like a little brother. He was becoming… You know, he was becoming closer and like a little brother. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The lawyer says they’ve heard a lot about Garland’s words. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How would you describe generally the way you speak?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Garland:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I say, I say inappropriate things, and I say them in inappropriate times. But I’m, I’m, I’m usually doing it a- as hard as it is for people in here to understand, I’m usually doing it in an encouraging manner. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he says he didn’t even know it bothered Valentino until after he’d died, when someone else in the office said something to him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Garland:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sergeant \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> made several comments about, “We killed Rodriguez.” And he made certain comments that specifically me and Jordan killed Rodriguez. And so we, we put in a, a complaint against him, and that was the first time that I had any idea of anything with Rodriguez. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The tape is redacted, but the sergeant he’s talking about here has to be Steele. We know Steele was really upset about Valentino’s death and blamed these guys who’d been so hard on him. That complaint that Garland and another officer filed against Steele didn’t go anywhere. Then the article about Valentino’s death and Garland’s text messages came out in the paper, the Sacramento Bee.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What impact did these articles have on you a- at the time they came out?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Garland:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I- It destroyed me. It destroyed my character. It, uh… As soon as the articles come out, it just… My daughter, my daughter had to go to homeschooling. I mean, uh, it just destroyed everything. It destroyed my life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then his lawyer asks Garland a question that she asks each of the officers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I- If you were able to say something about this situation to Officer Rodriguez’s father in light of everything that’s gone on, what would you say to him?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 2:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Objection. Relevance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Garland:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, I would just like to let him know that for the, for the time that he was in ISU, that he had a good time and he had fun and we, we all, we all had fun. We all enjoyed his son and that it wasn’t, it wasn’t what he was told. It’s not what… Rodriguez didn’t have a bad time in ISU. Rodriguez loved ISU. He loved working with us and he, he said the same things I said back and forth and I never got offended by him and I, I never felt he was offended. And I, I just wanna let his father know that we did respect his son and that we, we enjoyed his son and that I’m s- I’m really sorry for his loss. I just, I feel bad for him. I- I’m a father and it’s so- something you shouldn’t see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In closing, the officer’s lawyer argues that in this case, that’s basically just about bad language, dismissal and long pay cuts are too severe. They were all veteran officers with great reputations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The question is for these four gentlemen, should they either have their careers ended or be hampered, uh, for years financially and with, with the stigma of this discipline based on what were private communications, banter, blowing off steam, were words? They were just bad words. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The attorney for CDCR goes last. He says any reasonable person looking over these messages would understand that they’re harmful and that they had accumulative effect.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 2:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This beat down at the office and over text that he took from these officers had its effect over time, and that’s why, that’s why it took a while until he reached his breaking point to start reporting it to people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Finally, he points back to the officers’ own testimony.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 2:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Council’s question to the appellants about, you know, “What, what would you say to Rodriguez’s father if you had a chance to do so?” And it was intended to be emotional testimony, but I think it’s notable that not one of the appellants, not one of them indicated that they would tell him that they were sorry for anything that they did. In fact, several of them said that they would try to convince the, the father that they did nothing wrong — that they didn’t intend to do anything wrong. They treated ISU like their own junior high locker room. They, they bullied, uh, Rodriguez. They, they went after him. They called him horrible names, yet they s- they, they got on the stand and said, “I wouldn’t… I would not say anything to him indicating that I’m sorry for what I did.” A- And, and that right there is the biggest evidence that the likelihood of reoccurrence is high. Thank you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s how the eight days of hearings came to a close. There was one other person who we’d hoped to hear in these recordings, but didn’t, the chief deputy warden, Gena Jones. She wasn’t called by either side, which seems strange. Jones is the person Valentino first broke down to when he felt he had to leave the prison, and she was directly in charge of the ISU. Since Valentino’s death, she has also been promoted. She is now a warden of the prison in Stockton, California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The judge issued his recommendation a little while later, which was adopted by the state personnel board, which is basically the HR department for the state. And we were able to get that decision through a public record’s request.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. So, this is from… We got this last night from the state personnel board.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These are the decisions that they made about the appeals brought by, uh, Garland, Jordan, uh, Bettencourt and Fong.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie met up with Val Sr. to show him the documents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The first thing to know is that the state personnel board upheld all the decisions, so that means that Garland is still fired, and Jordan’s fired, and Fong and Bettencourt had their pay docked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Well, I’m glad that you s- you, you told me first before we went on, ’cause, uh, my heart was racing. So, that’s good that they upheld the decisions. Um, I’m interested to hear what, what they had to say. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I can imagine, you know, that, “We were just joking around with him,” or whatever. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says it was in his son’s nature to forgive, to try and get along with people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s really easy for someone to look at the text messages and see that he’s being friendly at times with these same guys, even after he leaves, but th- that was his personality, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it’s one of those things you can’t beat out of your kid-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… ’cause he’s just a nice person, you know? He was always tugging at me and saying, “Look what I did, dad,” you know? Uh, he always… Like, th- they call them guys apple polishers, you know? \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Yeah, that was just my son. He was just a little apple polisher. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I want their attorney to realize, that’s, that’s the kind of person he was. He was a, he was a little boy in a man’s shell, you know? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Following this hearing, these officers appealed their discipline to the state superior court, and that appeal is still pending. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But for Val Sr., this narrowing of the investigation, two officers fired for saying bad words, does not address the underlying machine that enabled that conduct.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everybody is just protecting themselves, you know? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Ad break]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As we were rolling out this podcast, we were also staying in touch with Val Sr. and one day he texted Julie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like he wrote me this morning saying something like, “Well, Steele promised me I’d know the truth and it would be hard.” I mean, uh, so, he’s got something new to tell us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Victoria Mauléon:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Boy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know what it is, or if it’s just reading it from Steele like that. I, I don’t know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Val Sr. had finally gotten a chance to read the book that Kevin Steele had been working on before he passed away, and so Julie and I met up with him to talk about it a few days later. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, we really just wanted to check in with you and see, you know, what is… How you’re feeling, but also just, you know, you had a chance to read the book.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was, I was highlighting things and I was like, “Man, could just… You could highlight the whole thing sometimes.” It’s-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steele’s widow, Lily, shared the manuscript with him, and she also gave us permission to read some parts of it here. The first page is a list of titles Steele was considering. At the top…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Thin Line Blurs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How to Kill a Cop.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Betrayal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The book begins with a line that’s very on brand for him. “This book is dedicated and faithfully devoted to the truth.” The dedication is heavy with Steele’s disillusionment and hurt. “Within this book, you will read the story about how corruption and criminality were treated as celebrities. Prowlers, bandits and punks were granted immunity for dirty deeds and acts of criminality, while the whistle-blowers and law-abiding staff were pursued, harassed and persecuted. This story was never intended to be told.” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The stories he tells are many of the stories that you have already heard throughout this podcast. He writes about meeting Ronny Price in the hospital with his teeth knocked out and his face smashed in after being tripped by officers, and how the incarcerated man died the next day of his injuries.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steele writes about the murder of Luis Giovanny Aguilar and questions, “Did CDCR peace officers, the individuals who are commissioned and duty-bound to be professional, fair, honest and ethical, become complicit in the slaughter of an inmate?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he writes about his friend, Valentino Rodriguez.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was hard to read, and then every time I went back into it, it got a little easier to read.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were parts that Val Sr. found touching, like Steele’s description of how hard his son worked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Valentino was just trying to make his supervisors, the institution and his chosen profession flash, sparkle and glimmer. Valentino was happy and filled with pride when something he was working on gained positive recognition and attention.” And that, that is exactly the way he was when he was a, when he was a boy. He was the same, same way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And there were parts like this one that made Val Sr. very angry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Valentino would often make comments to me that he was treated as the office bitch and given very little praise and gratitude.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s clear from the book that Valentino’s death is a turning point for Steel. He keeps waiting for the institution to respond with care, concern, and accountability, but that’s not what he sees. The day after Valentino died the warden wanted to talk to Steele, and here’s Val Sr. again reading what Steele wrote about this meeting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“I remained standing in the middle of the office. I was still attempting to fully grasp the significance and magnitude of Valentino’s death as I was openly crying in plain view of Warden Lynch and Lieutenant Strohmaier.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The warden wanted to find out what Steele knew. Steele writes that he shared everything Valentino had told him, and then waited for the warden to react.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Without any hesitation, Warden Lynch calmly remained seated with his right leg crossed over his left leg and very casually said, ‘Well, you haven’t told me anything I didn’t already know.'”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The warden could just be acknowledging that he’d already heard these same things from Valentino himself a few days earlier. But to Steele, this reaction is evidence of the warden’s callousness and preoccupation with self-protection. Steele began to view everything through this lens. The institution he’d have given his life for was starting to treat him as a threat. He writes that the friction in the ISU office was increasing. In one instance, he says that his boss told him, quote, that, “Some staff were starting to consider me as an ‘inmate lover’ as I was spending too much time talking to inmates.” He writes that another boss emailed him asking about his retirement plans. And someone else told him that his bosses were talking about him behind closed doors. “The main topic of discussion within these meetings was how to stimulate my departure without making it appear as workplace retaliation.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I kind of could see how they were systematically picking him apart until his death.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When Kevin Steele died, his manuscript was 104 pages, but it wasn’t finished. There were some things Val Sr. was expecting to see in those pages but didn’t. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe it’s my suspicions and they’re not confirmed there. You know? But he got, he got about as far into that book as um, I, I needed him to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We still have questions for Steele that aren’t answered in his book, like what had he and Valentino shared with each other about the murder of Luis Giovanny Aguilar? What happened in that last call Steele had with internal affairs? And could things have turned out differently?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many of Steele’s friends and colleagues have also struggled to understand his death and everything that led up to it, and some of them are speaking up now because they want answers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s why we’re here as well is to find the truth finally.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is retired correctional officer Annette Eichhorn. She worked as a tower copy at New Folsom. She says Valentino and Steele’s deaths should be a wake up call.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now two of them that are dead because to find the truth. That should shock the shit out of everybody-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… that’s still there. And I don’t understand how it’s not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Annette came into our recording studio with her friend, Paul Crews, who also retired from the prison.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was a correctional officer the last almost 21 years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Paul was a control booth officer. As you’ve heard throughout this podcast, we’ve often had to agree to confidentiality or anonymity for officers. But these two officers agreed to sit down with us and talk on the record because they wanna stand up for Steele.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s few people that we would be speaking out for.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Cause this is a guy that was always looking out for us, as… Not just “us” singular. “Us” plural and “us” as a department.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as Annette says, they want to try and find the truth among the sea of rumors that started going around after Steele’s picture was posted at the gate banning him from the institution.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I went up to a few people and said, what is, what’s up with Steel? F him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Annette wasn’t sure why people at the prison had turned on Steele. Paul says he called Steele on the phone in early 2021, but he didn’t know Steele was out of the prison, or that he’d been banned. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He picked up the phone, so I contacted him, not knowing anything that was going on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Paul hadn’t been at work for months because he’d been rehabbing from an injury, but now he was supposed to go back to work and he was calling Steele because he was really struggling and he needed Steele to know something.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was like, “Kevin, this is what’s going on.” I… It was all about me on that conversation at that point. “I’m on this particular drug. I don’t think I should be in a control booth. I shouldn’t be doing anything with this job until I get me right.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Paul told Steele he’d had a meltdown and been put on psychiatric medication. Steele was the guy who drug tested officers at the prison, and so, Paul needed him to know that this medication would be showing up in his urine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Were you at that low point then when you called him?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was, I was at a low point, but I was at such a low point, my, my wife was looking at me like, “I need your, your safe key.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The key to the gun safe. Paul says his wife was worried that he might take his own life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was like, “I’m there.” She says, “We don’t know.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hmmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I said, “What do you mean we?” The kids didn’t know. So, “Sure. Have my damn keys,” \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, “you know, if that makes you feel happy.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Paul told Steele what he was going through.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then he told me, he’s like, “Well, I’m… I haven’t been there since November.” I’m like, “November? What, what happened?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steele had actually stopped working at the prison in December, and then gone to Missouri in January. After the notice banning him, Steele had started to suspect he was under investigation, but he didn’t know what for — and he told Paul he couldn’t talk about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I was like, “All right. Well, that aside, are you mentally okay?” ‘Cause he didn’t sound right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To me, he didn’t sound right. And he said, “I’m just frustrated, you know?” I was like, “Okay. Well, I’ve always been that guy, somebody you can call and talk to no matter what. Um, I’d rather you talk than blow your head off. I just… We know too many people that that happened to.” And, um, he’s like, “No, I’m not there.” And I was like, “Okay.” And he kind of, like, told me, “Everything is gonna come out in the wash, but right now, I’m ou- out a job.” Well, I was like, “All right. Well, I’m gonna check on you every so often.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Paul says for some reason, talking to Steele helped him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My problem didn’t seem so big anymore. It was kind of like… In a weird way, it was kind of like a reset.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Annette was going through her own struggles with the department and would text and talk with Steele about what he was going through. She says he was crushed when he heard they were trying to make him look corrupt.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re switching it to where, no Steele is helping this inmate with his attorney and, um, um, turning on his own people, and that’s why he, he, he had to go. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Annette says Steele told her he wished he’d never opened his mouth.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s like, “I shouldn’t have talked.” He’s all, “My life would have been so much better.” I was like, “Steele, you know you couldn’t.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“You, you know you could not live with yourself if you just ignored Rodriguez.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over his years at the institution, Steele had seen so much, assaults and cover-ups and over and over again, he’d been told that, “There was a process in place. People would be held accountable. Just trust the system.” Now, he felt that system had turned on him. We can’t see the full internal affairs file on Steele, but we were able to get a summary report about what he was being investigated for and what the outcome was. Here are the allegations. Number one, circumventing the prison’s legal mail process by sending a scanned letter from an incarcerated person to their attorney. Number two, he allegedly met with an incarcerated person and lied that it was for an attorney visit. And number three, he, “Released a confidential memorandum to a member of the public after the Office of Internal Affairs ordered the sergeant not to communicate with that member of the public. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That last allegation against Steele was the easiest to decode. It was about Steele’s own memo — that explosive one that he sent to the warden that we read you earlier in this series. The member of the public that he sent it to, as we know, was Val Sr., who he’d already been told not to talk to. The second allegation that Steele met with an incarcerated person and lied about it being for an attorney visit didn’t go anywhere, and it couldn’t be substantiated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But for a long time, we weren’t sure what the first allegation was really about. Had Steele been helping someone get around the legal mail process and secretly communicate with their lawyers? And then we were leaked those tapes and memos, and we began to put two and two together. We found out that there were these two letters that Dion Green wrote to the warden. He was worried about his safety because word was spreading that he was a whistleblower. In one of the videos we got, Steele actually holds up one of these letters to the camera.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sgt. Kevin Steele:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then the other one, I told you that I’m going to, um, email to your attorney.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dion Green:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, sir.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sgt. Kevin Steele:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then that was at your request. It wasn’t something that I suggested or asked you to do? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dion Green:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, sir.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sgt. Kevin Steele:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s what this is about. These letters seem like they were Green’s insurance policy in case something happened to him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So on two occasions, Steele emailed copies of Green’s letters to both the warden and to Green’s attorney. But legal mail is still supposed to go through proper channels and the actual physical mail. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But here’s the thing that makes this investigation so weird. You can see in Steele’s correspondence that this was not some sneaky thing he did. Both times, he explicitly tells the warden he’s doing it. It isn’t until months later that Internal Affairs starts investigating Steele for this. And that investigation was still going on when he died. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Ad break]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I tell Paul and Annette that after Steele’s death, the agency finished that internal investigation and found that Steele had violated policy by sending those letters and forwarding the memo he wrote to Val Sr.. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They completed the Internal Affairs investigation after he died and imposed a 10% pay cut for 12 months.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After he died?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After he died.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How can they do that after he died? Are you serious?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What the fuck is wrong with these people? What the… This is how far they can go. They gotta nail that, literally nail the nail in the coffin on his name. That fucking pisses me off. Fuck them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I needed to hear that. We needed to… What the fuck is their narrative that they thought that they can do that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s dirty as shit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s dirty as shit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The discipline deemed appropriate for Steele’s offenses — sending scanned letters over email to an attorney, and sending his own memo to Val Sr. — was a pay cut for a full year. This was greater than the discipline imposed on any of the officers who’d failed to protect Luis Giovanny Aguilar. But because he was dead, the discipline was suspended. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I asked the state’s Office of the Inspector General for prisons about Steele’s case because the timing of it, the nature of it really looks like retaliation. And it’s part of their job to investigate complaints of whistleblower retaliation. A spokesperson said they couldn’t comment on his case but that it was protocol for CDCR to complete investigations even after an officer’s death, and that, “The act of whistleblowing does not insulate a person from being subjected to a legitimate investigation into allegations that the whistleblower engaged in misconduct.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As far as we can tell, this is the only mark on his record — the only time the agency disciplined him for anything.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But Steele’s disciplinary record, and his book, and even this podcast so far… don’t detail all of Steele’s efforts to expose misconduct in the agency. Some of those efforts we haven’t gone into. We don’t know the full picture\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there is one more case that Steele got involved in that I want to tell you about briefly, because I think it shows how far Steele had traveled from the man who showed up to work early each morning, full of faith in his institution. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the month before his death Steele was in communication with an attorney, who under other circumstances he likely would have considered on the other side of things.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Would you mind just starting off by telling us who you are and what you do, Steve?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Glickman:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I’m Steve Glickman. I’m an attorney in Los Angeles.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Glickman was suing CDCR on behalf of the family of a man who died in the prison. That death was reported as a suicide. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Glickman:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We had not a single clue that there was anything other than a suicide.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Glickman says another lawyer gave him a tip — that he should get in contact with a man named Sgt. Kevin Steele. So he did. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Glickman:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a shocking, chilling conversation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steele told Glickman he’d interviewed an incarcerated man who’d confessed it was actually a murder and that he had committed it. This was surprising to Glickman because that confession was not among the evidence that CDCR had turned over about the case, and they were supposed to turn over everything. On the phone, Steele told the lawyer that he’d part of gathering that evidence and noticed this key interview was missing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Glickman:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He complained to one of his supervisors and he learned that the inmate Clark, the one who had confessed to the murder, was actually working for the security, in- internal security office there at the prison. And, and so his feeling as he expressed to me was, is that’s why it was being covered up — because this guy was an informant for the, the prison system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says that Steele was scheduled to give a deposition in his lawsuit, but before that happened–\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Glickman:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was called actually by a newspaper reporter who told me that, uh, Steel had committed suicide under suspicious circumstances. So we never, we never were able to get his testimony under oath. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, what did you think when you got that call? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Glickman:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was shocked. I was shocked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The agency settled that suit for $250,000 earlier this year. Steele doesn’t mention this case in his manuscript, maybe because he hadn’t gotten to it yet,but the final pages show that he was researching the case law around whistleblowing, and what protections he might be entitled to. And what he discovered is that there were actually relatively few. And here is the fundamental catch–22 that correctional officers like Steele face: if there’s a policy against sharing confidential information and an officer shares it anyways, even if the purpose is to blow the whistle on misconduct, the officer can still be punished.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yet, on the day they join the academy, correctional officers also swear an oath… an oath to uphold the law. And so, what are they supposed to do if they come to believe that their own institution is breaking it?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The lack of protections for whistleblowers is not a new problem for CDCR. 20 years ago, the state Senate called for hearings about CDCR’s failure to police itself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sen. Gloria Romero:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can the California Department of Corrections police itself? The answer, I believe, is no. But starting today, it must…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And a persistent code of silence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sen. Gloria Romero:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Code of silence at the highest level of government. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The testimony sounds eerily familiar. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>D.J. Vodicka:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He yelled, “Hey, you big old snitch, you big old rat. Who you telling on now?” And I felt really threatened by that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Woman:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m a family member of an inmate. My husband is in prison. He’s currently at Ironwood. He was up at Pelican Bay, and guards tried to have him killed by putting an inmate in his cell. He was very, very, very badly hurt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sen. Jackie Speier:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s frightening to me is that there are correctional officers within the institution at all of our state prisons that feel they cannot come forward for fear of retaliation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mike Jimenez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, there are. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sen. Jackie Speier:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that should be of concern to you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mike Jimenez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Part of the impetus for these hearings was the suicide of a captain who’d reported concerns about a massive riot that officers delayed responding to. The captain was demoted and threatened by his colleagues, according to news reports. “My job has killed me,” the captain wrote in his suicide note. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After Valentino died and after Kevin Steele died, both Mimy Rodriguez and Lili Steele had a decision to make. In order to get husbands’ death benefits right away, they could sign a release form stating that their deaths were unrelated to their jobs. But neither widow could bring themselves to sign that piece of paper. Lili told me it would’ve felt like stabbing her husband in the back. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So instead, they filed worker’s compensation claims with the state. This was a difficult process, but Lili said this was her way of saying, “I know what you people did to him.” Initially those claims were denied, but after a fight they were granted. Both Kevin and Valentino’s deaths were found to be the result of mental injuries sustained in their profession as correctional officers for the State of California. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lili said when she got the call about that decision, she sobbed. She told me she was overcome with emotion to have someone acknowledge what had happened, and that they believed her. Mimy says she also remembers getting that call.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mimy Rodriguez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just said, “Okay. Thank you.” And then I cried when I got off the phone. But I, I, I knew it was going on. Like, I knew that this was… had to do with his job. Oh, that’s all he talked about. The night that he passed, I remember when I was getting put in the back of the cop car, I remember yelling at the cop, like, telling her, like, “Quit your job. Like, this job is gonna cause you so much stress. Look what happened.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mimy says when she and Valentino first met, his job was one of the things she loved about him. She also had plans to go into the field herself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mimy Rodriguez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a field that I had a lot of respect for, still have a lot of respect for, but it’s also something that is permanently engraved of “I know what happens here. I know what happened here.” And it’s hard not to look at it differently now and feel differently now. I didn’t realize it was gonna be like this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On paper, California’s $14 billion a year prison system is an institution that’s trying the Norway model — the cutting edge of progressive and humane policies that focuses on reintegration and emotional wellbeing. An institution that bans discrimination, that promises to protect the people in its custody, that forbids the code of silence. And yet, we’ve found the reality inside this system is very different from the promise. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our review of 80 cases of officer discrimination going back to 2015 found the type of abuse that Valentino experienced happened across institutions. The most common type of discrimination in these cases disclosed to us was sexual harassment. Yet on its own, even egregious misconduct often did not lead to firing. And this culture is important because sometimes explicitly and sometimes implicitly it enforces the code of silence and even more serious misconduct goes unreported. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Along with off-the-charts use of force at New Folsom Prison, our analysis of CDCR’s data found another troubling trend. Despite damning reports from the Office of the Inspector General of prisons, the rate officers used force across all high security prisons in the state between 2009 and last year increased by 137%. This gap between what the system promises and what it delivers is the gap that swallowed up incarcerated people like Ronnie Price and Luis Giovanny Aguilar. And this is the gap that Valentino Rodriguez and Kevin Steele fell into as well. The agency will not discuss their cases, and their names do not appear among the fallen officers memorialized on CDCR’s website, but they are not alone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In terms of overall numbers of correctional officers who’ve died by suicide like Steele, it’s hard to get an exact number. There are about 30,000 peace officers employed in California’s prison agency. A 2017 UC Berkeley survey of some officers found that one in 10 reported suicidal thoughts. But CDCR said they don’t track employee suicides out of respect for their privacy.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The California Correctional Officers Union provided me with a list that they had gathered, informally by word of mouth, institution by institution. So it’s not a complete list, and it’s not even a list of names, but simply dates of death. There are 24 dates on this list — 24 current or former officers who died since the beginning of 2020. Since I got that list in May last year, I heard about six more officers and a former warden who died by suicide, bringing the number to 31; at least 31 peace officers who took their own lives since 2020. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The union contact who gave me that list said, “If these deaths were happening in any other profession, someone would be calling for an investigation,” and yet he can’t even get a solid count to understand the scope of the problem. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The number of officers who simply died too young, like Valentino, often due to stress, heart attacks, and substance use issues is likely even greater. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Paul, the retired correctional officer, told me among officers, it’s become a kind of dark joke. When someone leaves the profession, on the 5th anniversary of their retirement, they throw a party to celebrate that, unlike so many of their colleagues, they are still alive. Like a lot of officers, Kevin Steele and Valentino Rodriguez signed up to work for the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation because of the promise of good benefits, early retirement, a family of fellow officers. Now their actual families are left without them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My biggest regret is that that day he died, I just didn’t take him for a long ride with me and talk. We were, we were due for one, and I just… You know, you just don’t know. This, uh, opportunity there and you just don’t know. Yeah. Sometimes I wonder if I woulda been able to save him. I, I know I could have. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s one of the hardest things about being a parent. When they’re little, you can protect them from things.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know where they’re going. You can keep them close. And then…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They go out in the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since the podcast came out, Val Sr. has had good days and bad days. He hopes something big will come from this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think, um, most importantly, this is probably my last stand. Um, I don’t, I don’t know what else I can do. You know, I just always pray that, God willing, it’s, it’s for a, a good, a good thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says it’ll be a relief in a way to come to the end of this project, but he’ll also miss it. It’s been a way for him to keep Valentino alive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll never stop, ever stop thinking about my son. No, he’s just too, uh… I just loved him too much.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Credits music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve been listening to the final episode of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On Our Watch\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Season Two: New Folsom from KQED. While this is the last episode of the series we will let you know if we get any more breakthroughs in our reporting. Please continue to send tips or feedback about the series to: onourwatch@kqed.org \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you to the people who knew and loved Valentino Rodriguez and Kevin Steele for sharing their stories with us. And thanks to all the correctional officers who spoke to us for this series, whose voices you often did not hear on the podcast, but who informed us about the challenges of their profession. If you are a whistleblower, you can find support online including at TheLampLighterproject.org which is especially for law enforcement whistleblowers. And we’ve links to other resources in our episode description and on our website. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also want to thank the families of Ronnie Price and Luis Giovanny Aguilar for opening up to us about their loved ones. And huge gratitude to the incarcerated people who spoke to us under very difficult and dangerous circumstances, including Joel Uribe, Mario Gonzalez, Mario Valenzuela and many more. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The series is reported by me, Sukey Lewis, and Julie Small. It’s edited by Victoria Mauléon. It’s produced and scored by Steven Rascón and Chris Egusa. Sound design and mixing by Tarek Fouda. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts and she executive produced the series. Meticulous fact checking by Mark Betancourt. Additional research for this episode by Kathleen Quinn, and Laura Fitzgerald — students in the Investigative Reporting Program at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism, whose chair David Barstow provided valuable support for the whole series. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over the past two years… so many journalists have helped with this series… We got research support from graduate students Elizabeth Santos, Cayla Mihalovich, Julietta Bisharyan, William Jenkins, Armon Owlia, Vera Watt, and Junyao Yang. Thanks also to UC Berkeley’s Jeremy Rue, Amanda Glazer and Olivia Qiu for their data analysis. And to George Levine of the LA Times. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The internal records highlighted in this podcast were obtained as part of The California Reporting project. Special thanks to Rahsaan Thomas of Ear Hustle, Sandhya Dirks of NPR and KQED Health Correspondent April Dembosky for their editorial insights. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Promotion and engagement support from César Saldaña and Maha Sanad. Graphic design by Sophie Feller. Photography by Beth LaBerge, and videography by Kori Suzuki. Thank you to our in-house lawyers, Rebecca Hopkins and Bridget Barrett, along with Sarah Burns and Thomas Burke of Davis Wright Tremaine, who helped us sue CDCR so we could get the internal tapes you heard on this podcast. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Original music by Ramtin Arablouei, including our theme song. Additional music from APM Music and Audio Network. Funding for On Our Watch is provided in part by Arnold Ventures and the California Endowment. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you to Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager, our Managing Editor of News and Enterprise Otis R. Taylor Jr., Ethan Tovan-Lindsey our Vice President of News, And KQED Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And thanks to all of you for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "8. Last Stand | S2: New Folsom | KQED",
"description": "After his son’s death, Valentino Rodriguez Sr. waited for the warden of New Folsom prison to call him. That call never came. In our season finale, we walk through the gates of New Folsom to ask the warden for answers. We also get a rare glimpse inside the world of correctional officer discipline and hear from Sgt. Kevin Steele in his own words.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After his son’s death, Valentino Rodriguez Sr. waited for the warden of New Folsom prison to call him. That call never came. In our season finale, we walk through the gates of New Folsom to ask the warden for answers. We also get a rare glimpse inside the world of correctional officer discipline and hear from Sgt. Kevin Steele in his own words.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC7467271989\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mental health resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are currently in crisis, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAMHSA National Help Line\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://988lifeline.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/help\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) Helpline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.hhs.gov/programs/prevention-and-wellness/mental-health-substance-abuse/index.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">US Health and Human Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://warmline.org/warmdir.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warmline Directory\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Whistleblower resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://www.thelamplighterproject.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Lamplighter Project\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://thesignalsnetwork.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Signals Network\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://empowr.us/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">EMPOWR\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblowersofamerica.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whistleblowers of America\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://whistleblower.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Government Accountability Project\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblowers.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">National Whistleblower Center\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://whistlebloweraid.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whistleblower Aid\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism was a key partner in making Season 2 of On Our Watch.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The records obtained for this project are part of the\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> California Reporting Project\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a coalition of news organizations in California. If you have tips or feedback about this series please reach out to us at \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"mailto:onourwatch@kqed.org\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">onourwatch@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Producer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we start, just wanted to give you a heads-up that this episode references discriminatory language and discusses suicide. If you or someone you know needs support, we’ve got links to resources in the episode description. We’ve also included resources for whistleblowers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After his son, Valentino Rodriguez, died in October 2020, Val Sr. had waited for someone from the prison to call him, to acknowledge his son’s passing. A few months went by, and when that call didn’t come, he sent off an email.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am Val’s dad. These are pictures of my wife and Val’s brother.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Attached to it were photos of Valentino on the day he graduated from the academy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I remember his graduation day, how proud he was. I remember the speech from that podium as clear as the day he was born.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The email was addressed to the head of CDCR, along with some of the people that Val Sr. felt were critical in what had happened to Valentino.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It could have been avoided when he asked for help but was swept under the rug to protect those involved.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Including his boss, Sergeant David Anderson…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">His sergeant that was witness to so many abusive texts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The chief deputy warden, Gena Jones, and the warden, Jeff Lynch-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My son was also left with your betrayal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… the boss of the whole institution. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have not had so much as a knock on the door, an apology, or any acknowledgement of his death.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Val Sr. did get a response to this email from the head of CDCR at the time. She passed on her condolences and said the agency was investigating his son’s case, but there was only silence from the warden. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then, in March of last year, about eight months into our investigation, we got some news. We were gonna be able to go on a rare press tour at New Folsom Prison, and talk to the warden face to face. Val Sr. sent us a list of questions he wanted us to ask. Like, who had leaked information about the warden’s private meeting with Valentino? Why had the warden banned Kevin Steele from the prison? And why hadn’t he ever called? Julie, my reporting partner, also reached out to Valentino’s widow, Mimy Rodriguez, to tell her the news.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re going to the prison next week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mimy Rodriguez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We asked for a sit-down with the warden, and we were told no. Um, but then we were told that he’ll be there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mimy Rodriguez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I’m getting ready for that. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mimy Rodriguez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How… That’s exciting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Got any questions for the warden?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mimy Rodriguez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wanna know what was going through his head when he found out Val passed. I wanna know what he felt when he sat across from Valentino. How did you feel when you found out? Did you get sick? Did you throw up? I… these things, I just… they probably seem minuscule or silly, but I w-… I just wanna know… was it just another officer for him? I just wanna know. Did you care? Did it matter to you? Do you remember his face the way I do? Or his laugh, or his gap teeth, or his love for ketchup? Do you remember his reports? Do you remember how hard he worked to make you happy, the way he worked hard to make his parents happy? Or, are you just gonna disregard that and say, “He was a great officer,” and give me some generic answer? I want him to be honest, and I want him to respect the people that come in and out of that prison.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Theme music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As we prepared to walk through the gates of New Folsom Prison, we were quite literally now going to be following in the footsteps of Officer Valentino Rodriguez and Sergeant Kevin Steele, and I kept thinking about their words to each other on the last day of Valentino’s life. “There are two sides over there.” Which side of the prison would we get to see? I’m Sukey Lewis, and this is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On Our Watch\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Season Two: New Folsom.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Automated:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In one mile, turn left onto Folsom Prison Road.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, we’re just passing past the sign for Folsom State Prison.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s… \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> we’re… it’s actually this lovely pastoral scene. You have this-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a beautiful spring day as Julie and I drive up the winding road in the Sierra Nevada foothills toward New Folsom Prison. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, frick.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just I’m just… I don’t usually stress out, but I haven’t been in a prison for a while.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm, yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here we go, CSP-SAC, and yeah. You’re feeling it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, I’m feeling it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie’s bracing herself to go into this place where we’ve been invited, but we’re not exactly welcome, and where everything we see is gonna be tightly controlled.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, yeah, here they are.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We park and then walk up to the outer security checkpoint of this huge facility. There’s a reporting team from the LA Times here today as well for the press tour.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice to meet you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LA Times Reporter:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The LA Times.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice to meet you. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sources have told us that the prison has been prepping for this for days, and the entourage that comes out to greet us is impressive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the biggest I’ve ever seen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">About a dozen people, who each introduce themselves, starting with the biggest of the bigwigs here today, the associate director for all of California’s high-security prisons, who then introduces the man we’ve been waiting so long to speak with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Associate Director:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of ’em, and, uh, this is Jeff Warden’s prison, er, uh, Jeff Lynch’s prison. (laughing) \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jeff Lynch, warden, CSP Sacramento.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warden Jeff Lynch, he’s a tall man with a broad chest, light brown hair. He looks a little like the actor Jeff Daniels, and today, he’s wearing a suit jacket, a pink shirt, and a tie. Down the line from him, we meet two associate wardens, two captains, a lieutenant, and people from healthcare and public relations.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, cool, um, we may have to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> ask you your names again along the way. That’s a lot to remember.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tour Guide:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, the, the plan is-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We walk past some staff residences and lower security areas that are empty right now and then under the eye of the tall, blue tower, where we know a guard sits with a Mini-14 rifle looking out over everything. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…Chain link fence on either side, big mirrors overhead, and there’s two little, kind of, windows. This is the same process that correctional staff go through when they come to work every day. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once inside the main complex, off to my left, I see a gray cement building with those very narrow windows. On the side of it, there’s a letter and a number: B8.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so that looks like the B8 unit… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The unit where Luis Giovanny Aguilar was killed in the day room. That’s not part of today’s tour. Instead, they’re taking us to what’s called the short-term restricted housing unit. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…And there’s short term restrictive housing kinda to the front and the left.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the new version of the SHU, or solitary confinement — the place where Dion Green was held after the murder and where he says officers were spreading rumors about him to get him killed. Julie’s walking next to the warden as they go inside.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you think this prison is… is this prison dangerous any more than others?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It has days where it’s had dangerous events.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and then, it’s had many days where it hasn’t. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s what we’re being shown: a calm day. There’s a class going on in a treatment room, where men talk to a counselor about regulating their emotions. But I notice, even as that class is going on, these men are chained to the chairs they sit in. Next, the warden shows us the solitary cages outside the unit. Officially, they’re called IEYs, or individual exercise yards, but incarcerated people refer to them as the dog cages. The entourage of CDCR staff and reporters chat and laugh behind me as I approach a person looking out through the fencing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m a reporter with KQED Public Radio. Are you, um, down to talk to me today or no?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patrick Anthony Bradley:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Depending on what.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just to ask you how your days is going and what your experience is here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patrick Anthony Bradley:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I’ll talk.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. Um, what’s your name?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patrick Anthony Bradley:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, Patrick Anthony Bradley.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bradley says he’s been at this prison for six years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patrick Anthony Bradley:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re gonna paint the pretty picture like it’s all good, but it’s, it’s really not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmm. What’s the, the picture that you would paint?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patrick Anthony Bradley:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is, this is a terrible \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patrick Anthony Bradley:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is terrible. Like, this is a terrible… it’s inhumane for anybody, for a, a, a patient, a inmate, a human being. Just conduct is disgusting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s kind of a strange scene. Like, I’m standing in between two worlds — the world Bradley lives in that’s bounded by the fence between us, a reality in his telling of corruption and darkness, and the world behind me represented by the warden and all the other prison officials standing just feet away, who repeatedly tell us their mission is safety and rehabilitation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patrick Anthony Bradley:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They might, you know, clean, clean today, you know, make it look good, polish and all that, but it’s just a terrible place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm, yeah. Um, were you here when, the, the homicide happened in B8?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patrick Anthony Bradley:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, probably.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patrick Anthony Bradley:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s probably something you should be asking the feds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patrick Anthony Bradley:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know what I mean? So…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bradley raises his eyebrows meaningfully. I thank him for his time and turn around to try and get some more of my questions in front of the warden. One of my biggest questions was about use of force, what we’d seen in the data, and the whole reason we’d started investigating New Folsom.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warden Lynch, I was gonna ask you. I know that their… like, use of force here at, um, CSP-SAC is a lot higher than any other prison in the state, and I was just wondering if you know kind of why that is or if it has something to do with the population here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re part of the high-security mission, which is a conglomerate of all of-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was expecting Lynch to give me some kind of explanation about how this prison is one of 10 high-security prisons, which means they’ve got people who’ve committed really serious crimes and have mental health issues. And he started with that, but then, Lynch totally surprised me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re probably pretty similar with the number of incidents for the mission that we belong in. If you-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No. It’s, like, 30% higher.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Than, uh, where?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All the other level fours.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, the, the data that, uh, we most recently looked at… Hey, Dana.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The warden calls over the then press secretary, Dana Simas.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The data that we were looking at for, uh, the use of force?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What about it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, I was just wan-… I was just wanting, uh, to see if he had th-… uh, understanding of, like, why it’s so much higher here than everywhere else.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, that’s not really the case. Where are you seeing that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, in the data that CDCR gave me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, uh, you mean on the CompStat data?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, um, I would need to verify-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… ’cause I’ve looked at the data, and the data shows that, at SAC, the use of force rates are actually really comparable to other institutions that have this same level of population.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. All right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After this tour, we double-checked our numbers and brought in help from a statistician in UC Berkeley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What they found is that the disparity was actually even greater than I’d thought. Between 2009 and 2023, the last year we have data for, officers at this prison used force at a rate almost 40% higher than any other prison in the state. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over the course of months, we followed up repeatedly with CDCR about these numbers. At first, a spokesperson said the agency couldn’t confirm our analysis. When we asked for their analysis showing that New Folsom was in line with other high-security prisons, they didn’t respond. When we asked how the warden could be unaware of what an outlier his institution was, they didn’t respond. When we asked why there were so many more of these troubling incidents that we talked about earlier in this series, like what happened to the men Kevin Steele interviewed in the hospital, they didn’t respond. But as we continued on this tour, the warden assured me…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We, we look at it all the time and are always, um, aware of a lot of the, uh, the incidents that happen here, and we’ve got policies we follow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I move on to some of my questions about protocols that had seemed to allow the B8 homicide to happen, starting with their housing protocol regarding documented enemies like Dion Green and Michael Brit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you comment on, like, why Michael Britt was housed with Dion Green in B8 when that stabbing happened?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Restricted housing in general, and I can’t comment on Michael Britt, um, but restricted housing in general has the ability to confine inmates in, in, uh, secure areas that if enemy concerns existed wouldn’t ordinarily be, um, exposed to each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">His answer is kind of jargony, but what he’s saying is that really high-security housing units like B8 are set up so that enemies shouldn’t ever be able to get at each other, but he doesn’t address the failures that made that attack possible. And so, I follow up, trying to understand what happened after the attack. Why weren’t the three guys who’d tried to kill Brit separated either?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Say a stabbing or an assault happens, and it’s coordinated between people, is it policy to then separate them from each other?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, I don’t know that there’s an actual policy that says… Uh, are you saying between the enemies?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Between in- inmates, so they are, like, coordinating, if they coordinate an assault on another inmate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know that there’s a policy that requires that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, um, but it-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That would fall under saf-… normal safety and security, um, classifications.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Dana Simas stepping in here again. She says, yes, maybe there’s not a specific policy that says this, but in general, yes, they separate crime partners. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And how do you deal with that if they’re, like, you know, all high security or all, you know, um, need solitary housing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There could be a different section, could be separated amongst different tiers. It… couple of different ways you could probably do it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. All righty. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CDCR declined to answer our follow-up questions about why Anthony Rodriguez, Cody Taylor, and Dion Green were not separated. But from what these officials are saying, it sure sounded like they never should have been in a position to murder Luis Giovanny Aguilar. But once again, it’s like we’re in different worlds, and it feels like the warden is saying that the world that I’ve seen — in incident reports I’ve read and heard about from numerous incarcerated people and correctional officers — just doesn’t exist. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s tough in a situation like this to get all the questions in that you wanna ask. It’s loud, and we each have a minder attached to us, but at one point during the tour, Julie is able to bring up Valentino with the warden.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have been talking to the father of, uh, Valentino Rodriguez Jr., who was a correctional officer here. And I know you probably can’t get into specifics, but I’m wondering if you could just tell me, as a person, how you felt when you heard that he had died.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s, it’s sad when anybody passes away.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did you know him personally?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie says the family, including Valentino’s dad, have questions for him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Probably wouldn’t be able to comment on any, um, particular cases.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, he never heard from you at the prison, he said. Is that normal? Like, if somebody passes away, would you normally reach out to the family? Or, is that not-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, I’d prefer not to comment on-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… um, at this time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She asks the warden if he’ll sit down with us in a better setting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve been reporting on prisons for a long time. I try to be fair, and I feel it… like it’s unfair when we don’t hear your side.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, but I think we can… whatever is fair within policy, we can do whatever we need to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll follow up with you on it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. Okay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the moment, it seems like the warden might be willing to follow up with us later on. Then, after a walk through the restricted housing unit, they start to lead us back out toward the gates we came in through. I ask where the ISU is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ISU is, uh, above B Facility.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Above B Facility. So-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… up there in the hill, kind of out of sight?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, it’s, like, right over there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">150 yards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The warden points off vaguely toward one of the buildings. From the outside, it doesn’t look like much — this place where the police force of the institution is based, where Sergeant Kevin Steele spent six years and where he grew more and more concerned about staff misconduct being ignored. And the place where Valentino Rodriguez spent his weekends writing reports and booking evidence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know. We got, we got a ton.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As we pass back out through the checkpoint and under the blue tower, the warden seems to visibly relax the closer we get to the main entrance gate.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What to you is the most significant policy change that has happened? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In my career? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The warden thinks about it as we walk. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s been a lot of significant things, and it’s real easy to focus on what’s most current, which for us, over the past six months has been, uh, the, uh, the body worn cameras and the stationary cameras.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CDCR was actually ordered by a judge to implement body cams at certain other prisons as part of an ongoing class action lawsuit against the agency, and they started rolling them out here at New Folsom too. I’ve talked to incarcerated people who say the body cams can help, but they’re not an easy fix because the institution can refuse to review the footage. And they sometimes delete it long before they’re supposed to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve also talked to officers who say the cameras can help them justify their actions if they’re called into question. As we head toward the outer gate, I’ve been waiting for the right moment to ask the warden about Sergeant Kevin Steele, but I misunderstand how long the tour is. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nope. This is about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">May have been a-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… misunderstanding. Okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we’ll make sure you guys are all checked out on equipment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think we’ve got more time and suddenly we’re by the gate, so I turn to the warden. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know you had a, you had a pretty high profile, uh, officer suicide here with Kevin, officer, Sergeant Kevin Steele, and I’m just wondering kind of how you processed that and how you support people to process that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Say it one more time. How I process and how what? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Y- how, and how other, how you support other correctional staff when their colleague has committed suicide.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We provide all the resources that we can. Um, how I process it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is the sa-… It’s, it is sad when there’s any staff death, um, and a lot of the examples, I think back on time, you know, a lot of the s- not a lot, but the staff that I’ve been connected to, uh, particularly at this prison that have gone through it, I mean, it, it weighs on all of us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The warden says they provide many services to officers, including peer support, and that he really understands the importance of taking care of your mental health. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My, uh, my message has always been it’s hard to be a good partner, a good father, a good spouse or a good son or daughter if you’re not taking care of yourself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once again, I’m having this moment of disconnect between what the warden is saying and what I’ve heard from officers — that they can’t trust that peer support will stay private, that they have to take time off unpaid when they’re struggling, or pay out of pocket to attend PTSD seminars. And that when you call the state employee hotline to try and access therapy, you still have to wait weeks to get an appointment to talk to someone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did you know that, um, Sergeant Steele was suffering m- with his mental health? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I knew that he took some time off work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And do y- why was he banned from this institution? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know that’s something that I can, uh, comment on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can’t? Okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I try one more time to ask the warden what he did when he found out that Steele had died, but Dana Simas steps in again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s an inappropriate question to comment on-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whoa…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Simas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… a specific person, specific case. Um, it’s, it’s not appropriate for us to do that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She has us check out our equipment and we say goodbye. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you, Mr. Lynch. I appreciate it. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice to meet you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sounds of wind and walking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What time is it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know it’s only noon. I thought it was gonna-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I thought we would be there forever.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I thought we would have more time.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The two and a half hours we were in there felt much longer and not long enough at the same time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s interesting, like, just kind of standing out here, and you, like, look around, and you’ve got the beautiful oak trees in leaf-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… and the green rolling hills, and the architecture of that opening gate, you know, while it’s, uh, you know, cement and, and somewhat brutalistic, it also has a little bit of aesthetic beauty to it, and, like, the deeper in you get, like, the less beauty there is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Standing back outside the gates, back in a world where no one is looking down on us with deadly weapons, where we aren’t surrounded by razor wire and concrete, I can feel something in me that’s been clenched… relax. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s just, like, the s- gradual stripping away. Like, talking to correctional officers who talked about walking through this gate every day, and, that, like, each gate further in, the mental kind of armor that they would kind of have to put on more and more and more. Um, and then it’s like, you’re a, you’re a human being out here, and in there, you’re not. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you’ve probably guessed, that sit down interview we’d asked for with the warden never happened. We also sent a detailed list of questions about the institutional response to Valentino’s allegations, but a spokesperson for CDCR declined to answer those questions and said that wardens can’t comment on personnel matters. But lucky for us, that was not the end of things, because while Warden Jeff Lynch didn’t have to answer our questions, he did have to answer someone else’s. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Ad break]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did you ever, uh, meet with Officer Rodriguez? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. And where did you meet? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In my office. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Warden Jeff Lynch testifying at an evidentiary hearing that was held in the summer of 2022. If you remember, some officers had gotten disciplined over the offensive group texts in Valentino’s phone, and two men were even fired… including Daniel Garland, the man who’d sent Valentino that video of his son at the gym threatening to slap him. Garland along with three other officers had appealed their discipline. At this hearing, an administrative law judge is gonna listen to that appeal and decide if their discipline should stand or be overturned. The warden is called as a witness for CDCR to talk about what Valentino had told him in that meeting the week before he died. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Heads up, this testimony references slurs, but we have bleeped them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He indicated he was referred to at times as a-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Please. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… as a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Um, he said, uh, the use of… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Go ahead. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… the w- the word \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> was used up there often. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer personnel matters are usually confidential, but we were able to get these recordings because of a new state-wide transparency law that unsealed records related to discriminatory behavior by law enforcement. This would give us a rare look inside this process, and we’d get to hear from some key figures in Valentino’s story about the events leading up to his death.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did he ever indicate if he had any physical manifestations as a result of these problems he was having with the other ISU staff? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think, uh, he had mentioned that, uh, he wasn’t sleeping well at home. He was throwing up a lot at work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warden Lynch says he asked Valentino to write up a statement with all his allegations. So far, this was all stuff we pretty much knew about. But then, the lawyer for the officers finally asks the warden about something we’d only heard about from Valentino’s wife Mimy — the allegations that the ISU squad, the police force for the prison, had been dirty. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, he made quite a few allegations, did he not? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, a- not only, uh, just about the way he was treated in ISU, but other more serious allegations, correct? Including about officers in ISU planting drugs on inmates? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, objections. Relevance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s CDCR’s lawyer objecting. They don’t want to go down this road. I’m not totally sure why the officer’s lawyer brings this up either. This hearing is not about those allegations, but because she asks about it, we finally got this little window into the warden’s actions after he met with Valentino. The judge allows the question.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Judge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll allow the question. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And there being uncontrolled weapons in ISU?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uncontrolled weapons are weapons that have been seized, but not yet booked into evidence. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you directed, um, I believe it was… Uh, I don’t know if he was a sergeant or lieutenant at that time, but \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And, um, I believe Lieutenant \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> to search the ISU office?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A little later in the hearing, Officer Martin Fong, who’d been in the ISU and who’d gotten a pay cut for his part in some of the ugly group texts was also asked about this search. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Martin Fong:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We came into the office, normal morning, just as, you know, we’re just kinda w- warming up in the morning and then, uh-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says it was the day before Valentino died. The ISU officers and the chief deputy warden, Gena Jones, came into the office. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Martin Fong:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was kind of weird because usually \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> doesn’t pop in that early but it’s like, “Hey, whatever.” And she’s, she looks at me and Jordan, and she goes, “I need to talk to you and you.” I’m like, “Oh.” Like, “This is out of the ordinary” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fong says at first he thinks maybe they’re going to get some praise for a recent case, but then Jones pulls them out into the hallway.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Martin Fong:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just basically says, “Hey, I wanna, I want you to hear from me first, but your desk… Uh, I had Lieutenant \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and Lieutenant \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> search your desk. There’s allegations, uh, that there was weapons and… \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[inaudible]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> there’s phones and narcotics in your desk.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another staff member had made these claims against them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Martin Fong:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was like, “Why are they doing?” Like, “I have a target on my back now or what?” But they weren’t just trying to get me removed from the unit. They were, they were trying to get me fired, or, you know, like, that’s some serious allegations. And so that devastated me ’cause of it, it, it challenged my, or it pretty much trying to discredit my character and everything I’ve worked for. And I got emotional, and I broke down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A weapon and some metal were found in his desk. We don’t know exactly what this weapon looked like, but I want to be clear here that from the context, it seems like this isn’t a gun or a baton or a weapon officers would use, but what’s called by CDCR an “inmate manufactured weapon.” So a shiv or something like that, that would usually be stored in evidence after being confiscated. But this weapon, Fong says, had a different purpose. He kept it in his desk as a show-and-tell item. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Martin Fong:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have a lot of tours that came up there and there’s a shadow board that has weapons, but s- sometimes to actually hold and, and look at a weapon, it, it’s a tangible item. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The warden says, even though a weapon was found, he believed Fong’s explanation of why it was there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that you understood that Officer Fong was using it for some sort of training event?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was my understanding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and so, so based on your understanding, it was not improper for Officer Fong to have this weapon in his desk? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Warden Jeff Lynch:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, based upon what was reported to me, um, but I didn’t know the, the origin of the weapon either.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I ran this by the former sergeant who you heard from last episode who knew a lot about internal affairs. I wanted to see if this made sense to him — to have an improvised weapon in your desk for training purposes. He said it did not. If you wanted a weapon to use for training, you would check it out of evidence. There would be a paper trail. Ultimately, the search did not result in any reprimand or discipline for officers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, in this hearing, no one followed up to ask the warden our biggest questions. Why had he chosen this as the way to handle Valentino’s allegations in the first place? If substantiated, evidence of planted drugs or weapons could have massive implications, from tainted criminal cases to charges for the warden’s own cops. But the warden didn’t immediately call in internal affairs, special agents who might have set up a sting operation or pulled phone records. Instead, Lynch has his own in-house people, the direct supervisors of the officers in question, go in and do this strangely casual search of their desks. By making this choice, the warden, also whether knowingly or not, likely exposed Valentino as a whistleblower. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hours before Mimy Rodriguez got home and found her husband on the bathroom floor, one of the last texts he sent said, “It’s out now that I told on the team.” After Valentino died, and Val Sr. filed a complaint with internal affairs and handed over his son’s phone, a special agent did start looking into some things. Their investigation didn’t substantiate the claims of planted drugs and weapons, but it’s not clear that they really looked into those claims. The report does note one more thing about Valentino’s meeting with the warden and the subsequent search that makes no sense. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Internal Affairs asked the warden to turn over any notes or memos about these two events. The warden told them he couldn’t find any documentation of either event. \u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Listening through these hearings, we also got to finally hear from one of the people that Val Sr. held responsible for how Valentino had been treated in the ISU — Sergeant David Anderson, Valentino’s boss, the guy who’d been on some of the text threads and who Valentino said had threatened him. He’d been called to testify by the lawyer for the officers, and she asks him what was meant by that nickname they’d given Valentino: half-patch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Anderson:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was more of a term of endearment, um, like a brother or a friend, a close friend is the term that, uh, they used it in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Objection, speculation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Judge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sustained. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The lawyer then asks Anderson if he heard other terms used — homophobic slurs, racial slurs, and his answer each time is-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Anderson:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Not that I can recall. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But when CDCR’s lawyer cross-examines him, she confronts him with his prior testimony to internal affairs, in which he admitted hearing these terms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Anderson:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It must’ve slipped my mind. I apologize for that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So in fact, you heard Officer Garland use the term \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">–\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Anderson:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… in the ISU office? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Anderson:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And during that same office of internal affairs interview, you admitted to hearing Officer Garland use the term \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> in the office.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Anderson:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What page is that on? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you could just close that and- if you don’t recall?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Anderson:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t recall. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Anderson:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s one I… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and if I could direct your attention to page 73. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Anderson:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">73?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 1:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’m going to direct your attention to lines 13 through 19. Special Agent \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> says, “Earlier we talked about the term \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> with an A at the end.” You respond, “Yeah.” He then says, “Did you hear staff use that?” You respond, “Yeah.” “Who did you hear?” And you respond, “Officer Garland.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Anderson:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, yes. Now that I’m reading this, it does, uh, I’m able to remember that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We still don’t know if the department imposed any discipline on Anderson. He could’ve been one of the people who got reprimanded in connection with Valentino’s case for failure to report misconduct, but if so… those details aren’t public.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We know from employment records that Anderson was promoted to lieutenant at New Folsom in July of 2022, the month after he gave this testimony. During this hearing, the lawyer for the officers also called each of them to speak in their own defense. And I’m gonna focus on Daniel Garland’s testimony, since you’ve heard the most about his actions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How long were you with the CDCR? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Garland:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just under 19 years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right, and, um, how did you get into corrections? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Garland:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My brothers were, uh, were inmates. My mother and my father were locked up, so I’ve always had some kind of connection to corrections. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Garland says getting a job as an officer changed his life, and this personal history gave him a unique empathy to do that job. But he says it was also hard work. He was exposed to terrible things and assaulted, and he and Valentino were there for each other in the harsh environment of the prison. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Garland:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was like a little brother. He was becoming… You know, he was becoming closer and like a little brother. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The lawyer says they’ve heard a lot about Garland’s words. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How would you describe generally the way you speak?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Garland:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I say, I say inappropriate things, and I say them in inappropriate times. But I’m, I’m, I’m usually doing it a- as hard as it is for people in here to understand, I’m usually doing it in an encouraging manner. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he says he didn’t even know it bothered Valentino until after he’d died, when someone else in the office said something to him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Garland:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sergeant \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[censored]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> made several comments about, “We killed Rodriguez.” And he made certain comments that specifically me and Jordan killed Rodriguez. And so we, we put in a, a complaint against him, and that was the first time that I had any idea of anything with Rodriguez. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The tape is redacted, but the sergeant he’s talking about here has to be Steele. We know Steele was really upset about Valentino’s death and blamed these guys who’d been so hard on him. That complaint that Garland and another officer filed against Steele didn’t go anywhere. Then the article about Valentino’s death and Garland’s text messages came out in the paper, the Sacramento Bee.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What impact did these articles have on you a- at the time they came out?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Garland:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I- It destroyed me. It destroyed my character. It, uh… As soon as the articles come out, it just… My daughter, my daughter had to go to homeschooling. I mean, uh, it just destroyed everything. It destroyed my life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then his lawyer asks Garland a question that she asks each of the officers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I- If you were able to say something about this situation to Officer Rodriguez’s father in light of everything that’s gone on, what would you say to him?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 2:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Objection. Relevance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Garland:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, I would just like to let him know that for the, for the time that he was in ISU, that he had a good time and he had fun and we, we all, we all had fun. We all enjoyed his son and that it wasn’t, it wasn’t what he was told. It’s not what… Rodriguez didn’t have a bad time in ISU. Rodriguez loved ISU. He loved working with us and he, he said the same things I said back and forth and I never got offended by him and I, I never felt he was offended. And I, I just wanna let his father know that we did respect his son and that we, we enjoyed his son and that I’m s- I’m really sorry for his loss. I just, I feel bad for him. I- I’m a father and it’s so- something you shouldn’t see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In closing, the officer’s lawyer argues that in this case, that’s basically just about bad language, dismissal and long pay cuts are too severe. They were all veteran officers with great reputations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Officers’ Lawyer:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The question is for these four gentlemen, should they either have their careers ended or be hampered, uh, for years financially and with, with the stigma of this discipline based on what were private communications, banter, blowing off steam, were words? They were just bad words. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The attorney for CDCR goes last. He says any reasonable person looking over these messages would understand that they’re harmful and that they had accumulative effect.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 2:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This beat down at the office and over text that he took from these officers had its effect over time, and that’s why, that’s why it took a while until he reached his breaking point to start reporting it to people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Finally, he points back to the officers’ own testimony.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CDCR Lawyer 2:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Council’s question to the appellants about, you know, “What, what would you say to Rodriguez’s father if you had a chance to do so?” And it was intended to be emotional testimony, but I think it’s notable that not one of the appellants, not one of them indicated that they would tell him that they were sorry for anything that they did. In fact, several of them said that they would try to convince the, the father that they did nothing wrong — that they didn’t intend to do anything wrong. They treated ISU like their own junior high locker room. They, they bullied, uh, Rodriguez. They, they went after him. They called him horrible names, yet they s- they, they got on the stand and said, “I wouldn’t… I would not say anything to him indicating that I’m sorry for what I did.” A- And, and that right there is the biggest evidence that the likelihood of reoccurrence is high. Thank you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s how the eight days of hearings came to a close. There was one other person who we’d hoped to hear in these recordings, but didn’t, the chief deputy warden, Gena Jones. She wasn’t called by either side, which seems strange. Jones is the person Valentino first broke down to when he felt he had to leave the prison, and she was directly in charge of the ISU. Since Valentino’s death, she has also been promoted. She is now a warden of the prison in Stockton, California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The judge issued his recommendation a little while later, which was adopted by the state personnel board, which is basically the HR department for the state. And we were able to get that decision through a public record’s request.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. So, this is from… We got this last night from the state personnel board.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These are the decisions that they made about the appeals brought by, uh, Garland, Jordan, uh, Bettencourt and Fong.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie met up with Val Sr. to show him the documents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The first thing to know is that the state personnel board upheld all the decisions, so that means that Garland is still fired, and Jordan’s fired, and Fong and Bettencourt had their pay docked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Well, I’m glad that you s- you, you told me first before we went on, ’cause, uh, my heart was racing. So, that’s good that they upheld the decisions. Um, I’m interested to hear what, what they had to say. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I can imagine, you know, that, “We were just joking around with him,” or whatever. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says it was in his son’s nature to forgive, to try and get along with people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s really easy for someone to look at the text messages and see that he’s being friendly at times with these same guys, even after he leaves, but th- that was his personality, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it’s one of those things you can’t beat out of your kid-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… ’cause he’s just a nice person, you know? He was always tugging at me and saying, “Look what I did, dad,” you know? Uh, he always… Like, th- they call them guys apple polishers, you know? \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Yeah, that was just my son. He was just a little apple polisher. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I want their attorney to realize, that’s, that’s the kind of person he was. He was a, he was a little boy in a man’s shell, you know? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Following this hearing, these officers appealed their discipline to the state superior court, and that appeal is still pending. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But for Val Sr., this narrowing of the investigation, two officers fired for saying bad words, does not address the underlying machine that enabled that conduct.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everybody is just protecting themselves, you know? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Ad break]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As we were rolling out this podcast, we were also staying in touch with Val Sr. and one day he texted Julie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like he wrote me this morning saying something like, “Well, Steele promised me I’d know the truth and it would be hard.” I mean, uh, so, he’s got something new to tell us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Victoria Mauléon:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Boy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know what it is, or if it’s just reading it from Steele like that. I, I don’t know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Val Sr. had finally gotten a chance to read the book that Kevin Steele had been working on before he passed away, and so Julie and I met up with him to talk about it a few days later. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, we really just wanted to check in with you and see, you know, what is… How you’re feeling, but also just, you know, you had a chance to read the book.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was, I was highlighting things and I was like, “Man, could just… You could highlight the whole thing sometimes.” It’s-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steele’s widow, Lily, shared the manuscript with him, and she also gave us permission to read some parts of it here. The first page is a list of titles Steele was considering. At the top…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Thin Line Blurs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How to Kill a Cop.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Betrayal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The book begins with a line that’s very on brand for him. “This book is dedicated and faithfully devoted to the truth.” The dedication is heavy with Steele’s disillusionment and hurt. “Within this book, you will read the story about how corruption and criminality were treated as celebrities. Prowlers, bandits and punks were granted immunity for dirty deeds and acts of criminality, while the whistle-blowers and law-abiding staff were pursued, harassed and persecuted. This story was never intended to be told.” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The stories he tells are many of the stories that you have already heard throughout this podcast. He writes about meeting Ronny Price in the hospital with his teeth knocked out and his face smashed in after being tripped by officers, and how the incarcerated man died the next day of his injuries.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steele writes about the murder of Luis Giovanny Aguilar and questions, “Did CDCR peace officers, the individuals who are commissioned and duty-bound to be professional, fair, honest and ethical, become complicit in the slaughter of an inmate?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he writes about his friend, Valentino Rodriguez.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was hard to read, and then every time I went back into it, it got a little easier to read.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were parts that Val Sr. found touching, like Steele’s description of how hard his son worked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Valentino was just trying to make his supervisors, the institution and his chosen profession flash, sparkle and glimmer. Valentino was happy and filled with pride when something he was working on gained positive recognition and attention.” And that, that is exactly the way he was when he was a, when he was a boy. He was the same, same way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And there were parts like this one that made Val Sr. very angry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Valentino would often make comments to me that he was treated as the office bitch and given very little praise and gratitude.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s clear from the book that Valentino’s death is a turning point for Steel. He keeps waiting for the institution to respond with care, concern, and accountability, but that’s not what he sees. The day after Valentino died the warden wanted to talk to Steele, and here’s Val Sr. again reading what Steele wrote about this meeting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“I remained standing in the middle of the office. I was still attempting to fully grasp the significance and magnitude of Valentino’s death as I was openly crying in plain view of Warden Lynch and Lieutenant Strohmaier.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The warden wanted to find out what Steele knew. Steele writes that he shared everything Valentino had told him, and then waited for the warden to react.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Without any hesitation, Warden Lynch calmly remained seated with his right leg crossed over his left leg and very casually said, ‘Well, you haven’t told me anything I didn’t already know.'”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The warden could just be acknowledging that he’d already heard these same things from Valentino himself a few days earlier. But to Steele, this reaction is evidence of the warden’s callousness and preoccupation with self-protection. Steele began to view everything through this lens. The institution he’d have given his life for was starting to treat him as a threat. He writes that the friction in the ISU office was increasing. In one instance, he says that his boss told him, quote, that, “Some staff were starting to consider me as an ‘inmate lover’ as I was spending too much time talking to inmates.” He writes that another boss emailed him asking about his retirement plans. And someone else told him that his bosses were talking about him behind closed doors. “The main topic of discussion within these meetings was how to stimulate my departure without making it appear as workplace retaliation.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I kind of could see how they were systematically picking him apart until his death.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When Kevin Steele died, his manuscript was 104 pages, but it wasn’t finished. There were some things Val Sr. was expecting to see in those pages but didn’t. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe it’s my suspicions and they’re not confirmed there. You know? But he got, he got about as far into that book as um, I, I needed him to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We still have questions for Steele that aren’t answered in his book, like what had he and Valentino shared with each other about the murder of Luis Giovanny Aguilar? What happened in that last call Steele had with internal affairs? And could things have turned out differently?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many of Steele’s friends and colleagues have also struggled to understand his death and everything that led up to it, and some of them are speaking up now because they want answers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s why we’re here as well is to find the truth finally.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is retired correctional officer Annette Eichhorn. She worked as a tower copy at New Folsom. She says Valentino and Steele’s deaths should be a wake up call.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now two of them that are dead because to find the truth. That should shock the shit out of everybody-\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… that’s still there. And I don’t understand how it’s not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Annette came into our recording studio with her friend, Paul Crews, who also retired from the prison.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was a correctional officer the last almost 21 years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Paul was a control booth officer. As you’ve heard throughout this podcast, we’ve often had to agree to confidentiality or anonymity for officers. But these two officers agreed to sit down with us and talk on the record because they wanna stand up for Steele.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s few people that we would be speaking out for.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Cause this is a guy that was always looking out for us, as… Not just “us” singular. “Us” plural and “us” as a department.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as Annette says, they want to try and find the truth among the sea of rumors that started going around after Steele’s picture was posted at the gate banning him from the institution.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I went up to a few people and said, what is, what’s up with Steel? F him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Annette wasn’t sure why people at the prison had turned on Steele. Paul says he called Steele on the phone in early 2021, but he didn’t know Steele was out of the prison, or that he’d been banned. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He picked up the phone, so I contacted him, not knowing anything that was going on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Paul hadn’t been at work for months because he’d been rehabbing from an injury, but now he was supposed to go back to work and he was calling Steele because he was really struggling and he needed Steele to know something.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was like, “Kevin, this is what’s going on.” I… It was all about me on that conversation at that point. “I’m on this particular drug. I don’t think I should be in a control booth. I shouldn’t be doing anything with this job until I get me right.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Paul told Steele he’d had a meltdown and been put on psychiatric medication. Steele was the guy who drug tested officers at the prison, and so, Paul needed him to know that this medication would be showing up in his urine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Were you at that low point then when you called him?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was, I was at a low point, but I was at such a low point, my, my wife was looking at me like, “I need your, your safe key.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The key to the gun safe. Paul says his wife was worried that he might take his own life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was like, “I’m there.” She says, “We don’t know.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hmmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I said, “What do you mean we?” The kids didn’t know. So, “Sure. Have my damn keys,” \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, “you know, if that makes you feel happy.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Paul told Steele what he was going through.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then he told me, he’s like, “Well, I’m… I haven’t been there since November.” I’m like, “November? What, what happened?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steele had actually stopped working at the prison in December, and then gone to Missouri in January. After the notice banning him, Steele had started to suspect he was under investigation, but he didn’t know what for — and he told Paul he couldn’t talk about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I was like, “All right. Well, that aside, are you mentally okay?” ‘Cause he didn’t sound right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To me, he didn’t sound right. And he said, “I’m just frustrated, you know?” I was like, “Okay. Well, I’ve always been that guy, somebody you can call and talk to no matter what. Um, I’d rather you talk than blow your head off. I just… We know too many people that that happened to.” And, um, he’s like, “No, I’m not there.” And I was like, “Okay.” And he kind of, like, told me, “Everything is gonna come out in the wash, but right now, I’m ou- out a job.” Well, I was like, “All right. Well, I’m gonna check on you every so often.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Paul says for some reason, talking to Steele helped him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My problem didn’t seem so big anymore. It was kind of like… In a weird way, it was kind of like a reset.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Annette was going through her own struggles with the department and would text and talk with Steele about what he was going through. She says he was crushed when he heard they were trying to make him look corrupt.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re switching it to where, no Steele is helping this inmate with his attorney and, um, um, turning on his own people, and that’s why he, he, he had to go. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Annette says Steele told her he wished he’d never opened his mouth.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s like, “I shouldn’t have talked.” He’s all, “My life would have been so much better.” I was like, “Steele, you know you couldn’t.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“You, you know you could not live with yourself if you just ignored Rodriguez.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over his years at the institution, Steele had seen so much, assaults and cover-ups and over and over again, he’d been told that, “There was a process in place. People would be held accountable. Just trust the system.” Now, he felt that system had turned on him. We can’t see the full internal affairs file on Steele, but we were able to get a summary report about what he was being investigated for and what the outcome was. Here are the allegations. Number one, circumventing the prison’s legal mail process by sending a scanned letter from an incarcerated person to their attorney. Number two, he allegedly met with an incarcerated person and lied that it was for an attorney visit. And number three, he, “Released a confidential memorandum to a member of the public after the Office of Internal Affairs ordered the sergeant not to communicate with that member of the public. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That last allegation against Steele was the easiest to decode. It was about Steele’s own memo — that explosive one that he sent to the warden that we read you earlier in this series. The member of the public that he sent it to, as we know, was Val Sr., who he’d already been told not to talk to. The second allegation that Steele met with an incarcerated person and lied about it being for an attorney visit didn’t go anywhere, and it couldn’t be substantiated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But for a long time, we weren’t sure what the first allegation was really about. Had Steele been helping someone get around the legal mail process and secretly communicate with their lawyers? And then we were leaked those tapes and memos, and we began to put two and two together. We found out that there were these two letters that Dion Green wrote to the warden. He was worried about his safety because word was spreading that he was a whistleblower. In one of the videos we got, Steele actually holds up one of these letters to the camera.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sgt. Kevin Steele:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then the other one, I told you that I’m going to, um, email to your attorney.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dion Green:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, sir.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sgt. Kevin Steele:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then that was at your request. It wasn’t something that I suggested or asked you to do? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dion Green:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, sir.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sgt. Kevin Steele:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s what this is about. These letters seem like they were Green’s insurance policy in case something happened to him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So on two occasions, Steele emailed copies of Green’s letters to both the warden and to Green’s attorney. But legal mail is still supposed to go through proper channels and the actual physical mail. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But here’s the thing that makes this investigation so weird. You can see in Steele’s correspondence that this was not some sneaky thing he did. Both times, he explicitly tells the warden he’s doing it. It isn’t until months later that Internal Affairs starts investigating Steele for this. And that investigation was still going on when he died. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Ad break]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I tell Paul and Annette that after Steele’s death, the agency finished that internal investigation and found that Steele had violated policy by sending those letters and forwarding the memo he wrote to Val Sr.. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They completed the Internal Affairs investigation after he died and imposed a 10% pay cut for 12 months.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After he died?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After he died.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How can they do that after he died? Are you serious?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What the fuck is wrong with these people? What the… This is how far they can go. They gotta nail that, literally nail the nail in the coffin on his name. That fucking pisses me off. Fuck them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I needed to hear that. We needed to… What the fuck is their narrative that they thought that they can do that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Crews:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s dirty as shit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annette Eichhorn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s dirty as shit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The discipline deemed appropriate for Steele’s offenses — sending scanned letters over email to an attorney, and sending his own memo to Val Sr. — was a pay cut for a full year. This was greater than the discipline imposed on any of the officers who’d failed to protect Luis Giovanny Aguilar. But because he was dead, the discipline was suspended. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I asked the state’s Office of the Inspector General for prisons about Steele’s case because the timing of it, the nature of it really looks like retaliation. And it’s part of their job to investigate complaints of whistleblower retaliation. A spokesperson said they couldn’t comment on his case but that it was protocol for CDCR to complete investigations even after an officer’s death, and that, “The act of whistleblowing does not insulate a person from being subjected to a legitimate investigation into allegations that the whistleblower engaged in misconduct.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As far as we can tell, this is the only mark on his record — the only time the agency disciplined him for anything.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But Steele’s disciplinary record, and his book, and even this podcast so far… don’t detail all of Steele’s efforts to expose misconduct in the agency. Some of those efforts we haven’t gone into. We don’t know the full picture\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there is one more case that Steele got involved in that I want to tell you about briefly, because I think it shows how far Steele had traveled from the man who showed up to work early each morning, full of faith in his institution. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the month before his death Steele was in communication with an attorney, who under other circumstances he likely would have considered on the other side of things.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Would you mind just starting off by telling us who you are and what you do, Steve?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Glickman:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I’m Steve Glickman. I’m an attorney in Los Angeles.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Glickman was suing CDCR on behalf of the family of a man who died in the prison. That death was reported as a suicide. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Glickman:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We had not a single clue that there was anything other than a suicide.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Glickman says another lawyer gave him a tip — that he should get in contact with a man named Sgt. Kevin Steele. So he did. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Glickman:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a shocking, chilling conversation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steele told Glickman he’d interviewed an incarcerated man who’d confessed it was actually a murder and that he had committed it. This was surprising to Glickman because that confession was not among the evidence that CDCR had turned over about the case, and they were supposed to turn over everything. On the phone, Steele told the lawyer that he’d part of gathering that evidence and noticed this key interview was missing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Glickman:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He complained to one of his supervisors and he learned that the inmate Clark, the one who had confessed to the murder, was actually working for the security, in- internal security office there at the prison. And, and so his feeling as he expressed to me was, is that’s why it was being covered up — because this guy was an informant for the, the prison system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says that Steele was scheduled to give a deposition in his lawsuit, but before that happened–\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Glickman:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was called actually by a newspaper reporter who told me that, uh, Steel had committed suicide under suspicious circumstances. So we never, we never were able to get his testimony under oath. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, what did you think when you got that call? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Glickman:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was shocked. I was shocked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The agency settled that suit for $250,000 earlier this year. Steele doesn’t mention this case in his manuscript, maybe because he hadn’t gotten to it yet,but the final pages show that he was researching the case law around whistleblowing, and what protections he might be entitled to. And what he discovered is that there were actually relatively few. And here is the fundamental catch–22 that correctional officers like Steele face: if there’s a policy against sharing confidential information and an officer shares it anyways, even if the purpose is to blow the whistle on misconduct, the officer can still be punished.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yet, on the day they join the academy, correctional officers also swear an oath… an oath to uphold the law. And so, what are they supposed to do if they come to believe that their own institution is breaking it?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The lack of protections for whistleblowers is not a new problem for CDCR. 20 years ago, the state Senate called for hearings about CDCR’s failure to police itself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sen. Gloria Romero:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can the California Department of Corrections police itself? The answer, I believe, is no. But starting today, it must…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And a persistent code of silence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sen. Gloria Romero:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Code of silence at the highest level of government. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The testimony sounds eerily familiar. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>D.J. Vodicka:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He yelled, “Hey, you big old snitch, you big old rat. Who you telling on now?” And I felt really threatened by that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Woman:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m a family member of an inmate. My husband is in prison. He’s currently at Ironwood. He was up at Pelican Bay, and guards tried to have him killed by putting an inmate in his cell. He was very, very, very badly hurt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sen. Jackie Speier:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s frightening to me is that there are correctional officers within the institution at all of our state prisons that feel they cannot come forward for fear of retaliation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mike Jimenez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, there are. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sen. Jackie Speier:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that should be of concern to you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mike Jimenez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Part of the impetus for these hearings was the suicide of a captain who’d reported concerns about a massive riot that officers delayed responding to. The captain was demoted and threatened by his colleagues, according to news reports. “My job has killed me,” the captain wrote in his suicide note. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After Valentino died and after Kevin Steele died, both Mimy Rodriguez and Lili Steele had a decision to make. In order to get husbands’ death benefits right away, they could sign a release form stating that their deaths were unrelated to their jobs. But neither widow could bring themselves to sign that piece of paper. Lili told me it would’ve felt like stabbing her husband in the back. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So instead, they filed worker’s compensation claims with the state. This was a difficult process, but Lili said this was her way of saying, “I know what you people did to him.” Initially those claims were denied, but after a fight they were granted. Both Kevin and Valentino’s deaths were found to be the result of mental injuries sustained in their profession as correctional officers for the State of California. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lili said when she got the call about that decision, she sobbed. She told me she was overcome with emotion to have someone acknowledge what had happened, and that they believed her. Mimy says she also remembers getting that call.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mimy Rodriguez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just said, “Okay. Thank you.” And then I cried when I got off the phone. But I, I, I knew it was going on. Like, I knew that this was… had to do with his job. Oh, that’s all he talked about. The night that he passed, I remember when I was getting put in the back of the cop car, I remember yelling at the cop, like, telling her, like, “Quit your job. Like, this job is gonna cause you so much stress. Look what happened.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mimy says when she and Valentino first met, his job was one of the things she loved about him. She also had plans to go into the field herself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mimy Rodriguez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a field that I had a lot of respect for, still have a lot of respect for, but it’s also something that is permanently engraved of “I know what happens here. I know what happened here.” And it’s hard not to look at it differently now and feel differently now. I didn’t realize it was gonna be like this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On paper, California’s $14 billion a year prison system is an institution that’s trying the Norway model — the cutting edge of progressive and humane policies that focuses on reintegration and emotional wellbeing. An institution that bans discrimination, that promises to protect the people in its custody, that forbids the code of silence. And yet, we’ve found the reality inside this system is very different from the promise. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our review of 80 cases of officer discrimination going back to 2015 found the type of abuse that Valentino experienced happened across institutions. The most common type of discrimination in these cases disclosed to us was sexual harassment. Yet on its own, even egregious misconduct often did not lead to firing. And this culture is important because sometimes explicitly and sometimes implicitly it enforces the code of silence and even more serious misconduct goes unreported. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Along with off-the-charts use of force at New Folsom Prison, our analysis of CDCR’s data found another troubling trend. Despite damning reports from the Office of the Inspector General of prisons, the rate officers used force across all high security prisons in the state between 2009 and last year increased by 137%. This gap between what the system promises and what it delivers is the gap that swallowed up incarcerated people like Ronnie Price and Luis Giovanny Aguilar. And this is the gap that Valentino Rodriguez and Kevin Steele fell into as well. The agency will not discuss their cases, and their names do not appear among the fallen officers memorialized on CDCR’s website, but they are not alone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In terms of overall numbers of correctional officers who’ve died by suicide like Steele, it’s hard to get an exact number. There are about 30,000 peace officers employed in California’s prison agency. A 2017 UC Berkeley survey of some officers found that one in 10 reported suicidal thoughts. But CDCR said they don’t track employee suicides out of respect for their privacy.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The California Correctional Officers Union provided me with a list that they had gathered, informally by word of mouth, institution by institution. So it’s not a complete list, and it’s not even a list of names, but simply dates of death. There are 24 dates on this list — 24 current or former officers who died since the beginning of 2020. Since I got that list in May last year, I heard about six more officers and a former warden who died by suicide, bringing the number to 31; at least 31 peace officers who took their own lives since 2020. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The union contact who gave me that list said, “If these deaths were happening in any other profession, someone would be calling for an investigation,” and yet he can’t even get a solid count to understand the scope of the problem. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The number of officers who simply died too young, like Valentino, often due to stress, heart attacks, and substance use issues is likely even greater. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Paul, the retired correctional officer, told me among officers, it’s become a kind of dark joke. When someone leaves the profession, on the 5th anniversary of their retirement, they throw a party to celebrate that, unlike so many of their colleagues, they are still alive. Like a lot of officers, Kevin Steele and Valentino Rodriguez signed up to work for the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation because of the promise of good benefits, early retirement, a family of fellow officers. Now their actual families are left without them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My biggest regret is that that day he died, I just didn’t take him for a long ride with me and talk. We were, we were due for one, and I just… You know, you just don’t know. This, uh, opportunity there and you just don’t know. Yeah. Sometimes I wonder if I woulda been able to save him. I, I know I could have. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s one of the hardest things about being a parent. When they’re little, you can protect them from things.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know where they’re going. You can keep them close. And then…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They go out in the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since the podcast came out, Val Sr. has had good days and bad days. He hopes something big will come from this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think, um, most importantly, this is probably my last stand. Um, I don’t, I don’t know what else I can do. You know, I just always pray that, God willing, it’s, it’s for a, a good, a good thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says it’ll be a relief in a way to come to the end of this project, but he’ll also miss it. It’s been a way for him to keep Valentino alive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll never stop, ever stop thinking about my son. No, he’s just too, uh… I just loved him too much.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Credits music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve been listening to the final episode of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On Our Watch\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Season Two: New Folsom from KQED. While this is the last episode of the series we will let you know if we get any more breakthroughs in our reporting. Please continue to send tips or feedback about the series to: onourwatch@kqed.org \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you to the people who knew and loved Valentino Rodriguez and Kevin Steele for sharing their stories with us. And thanks to all the correctional officers who spoke to us for this series, whose voices you often did not hear on the podcast, but who informed us about the challenges of their profession. If you are a whistleblower, you can find support online including at TheLampLighterproject.org which is especially for law enforcement whistleblowers. And we’ve links to other resources in our episode description and on our website. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also want to thank the families of Ronnie Price and Luis Giovanny Aguilar for opening up to us about their loved ones. And huge gratitude to the incarcerated people who spoke to us under very difficult and dangerous circumstances, including Joel Uribe, Mario Gonzalez, Mario Valenzuela and many more. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The series is reported by me, Sukey Lewis, and Julie Small. It’s edited by Victoria Mauléon. It’s produced and scored by Steven Rascón and Chris Egusa. Sound design and mixing by Tarek Fouda. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts and she executive produced the series. Meticulous fact checking by Mark Betancourt. Additional research for this episode by Kathleen Quinn, and Laura Fitzgerald — students in the Investigative Reporting Program at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism, whose chair David Barstow provided valuable support for the whole series. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over the past two years… so many journalists have helped with this series… We got research support from graduate students Elizabeth Santos, Cayla Mihalovich, Julietta Bisharyan, William Jenkins, Armon Owlia, Vera Watt, and Junyao Yang. Thanks also to UC Berkeley’s Jeremy Rue, Amanda Glazer and Olivia Qiu for their data analysis. And to George Levine of the LA Times. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The internal records highlighted in this podcast were obtained as part of The California Reporting project. Special thanks to Rahsaan Thomas of Ear Hustle, Sandhya Dirks of NPR and KQED Health Correspondent April Dembosky for their editorial insights. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Promotion and engagement support from César Saldaña and Maha Sanad. Graphic design by Sophie Feller. Photography by Beth LaBerge, and videography by Kori Suzuki. Thank you to our in-house lawyers, Rebecca Hopkins and Bridget Barrett, along with Sarah Burns and Thomas Burke of Davis Wright Tremaine, who helped us sue CDCR so we could get the internal tapes you heard on this podcast. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Original music by Ramtin Arablouei, including our theme song. Additional music from APM Music and Audio Network. Funding for On Our Watch is provided in part by Arnold Ventures and the California Endowment. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you to Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager, our Managing Editor of News and Enterprise Otis R. Taylor Jr., Ethan Tovan-Lindsey our Vice President of News, And KQED Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And thanks to all of you for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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