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Grace Won: Welcome to Forum. I’m Grace Won, in for Alexis Madrigal. Throughout his campaign and into his second term as president, Donald Trump has made clear how he feels about his enemies.
Donald Trump (clip): “I hate my opponent, and I don’t want the best for them. I’m sorry.”
Grace Won: And now Trump has followed through on his threats. Last week, following immense public pressure on the Justice Department, which is led by U.S. Attorney General Pam Bondi, the administration announced that James Comey, the former head of the FBI, has been indicted for allegedly making false statements.
Trump’s politicization of the department—which oversees the enforcement of federal criminal and civil laws, as well as the FBI, among other responsibilities—has raised alarms. As one congressional representative noted, “The problem is how are you ever going to know whether an investigation by the FBI, an investigation by the DOJ, is legitimate or corrupt?”
Here to talk about what’s going on at the Justice Department, we’re joined this morning by Ismail Ramsey, the former U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of California. Welcome to Forum.
Ismail Ramsey: Thank you.
Grace Won: We also have Glenn Thrush, senior reporter with The New York Times covering the Justice Department. Welcome, Glenn.
Glenn Thrush: Good to be here.
Grace Won: And we have Quinta Jurecic. She’s a reporter with The Atlantic and formerly with Lawfare. Welcome, Quinta.
Quinta Jurecic: Thanks for having me.
Grace Won: Quinta, I wanted to start with the top of the news—this federal shutdown. What do we know about how that shutdown will impact the Justice Department?
Quinta Jurecic: The department will be affected less than a lot of other agencies because many of its functions are what’s called “essential.” Its criminal law enforcement responsibilities, its security responsibilities—all those are going to keep going.
What will be affected is that some of the civil litigation the department is involved in may be slowed down, postponed, or delayed. And you’ve already seen the Justice Department start making some filings, as of yesterday, essentially saying, “Hey, we’re going to need some extra time. Will you give us a little more headway, judge? Because with the expectation of a shutdown, we won’t be able to make this filing on time.”
But overall, core law enforcement functions—the work of the FBI—will continue.
Grace Won: So the wheels of justice will continue to grind. Quinta, I want to turn to the Comey indictment. The president has a long list of people he does not like, but why is James Comey at the top of that list?
Quinta Jurecic: Trump has disliked Comey since 2016–2017, when Comey first arrived, before Trump took office, to brief him about the Steele dossier. That document contained negative information about Trump gathered from Russian intelligence. That, I think, put them off on the wrong foot.
Especially after that, Comey—then the FBI director—was involved in beginning the Russia investigation into interference in the 2016 election. Trump took a very negative view of that and, of course, fired him in the spring of 2017, ostensibly because of Comey’s role in the Clinton email investigation. But it’s fair to say it was really because Trump disliked his role in the Russia investigation. He’s hated him since then.
Comey has been a critic, though not particularly loud in recent years. I would describe this as an enmity that goes back to Trump’s first presidential campaign.
Grace Won: Quinta, the U.S. Attorney General, Pam Bondi, created something within the DOJ called the “Weaponization Working Group.” What is that group, and is this indictment the result of its work?
Quinta Jurecic: It’s hard to say exactly how this indictment surfaced. It certainly doesn’t follow the typical process for indictments. We’ve had reporting that Trump personally pushed the Justice Department to indict Comey—which is not typical. Strong norms previously existed against presidential involvement in law enforcement, but Trump has really shattered that, and Attorney General Bondi has let him.
We know Trump personally pressured the department to indict Comey. This was done in the Eastern District of Virginia after the U.S. Attorney for that district resigned rather than be pushed out, because he felt the prosecution had no merit. Trump then installed an aide of his, Lindsey Halligan, in a temporary capacity, and Halligan moved forward with it.
Reporting suggests people in the so-called “Weaponization Committee,” including Ed Martin—named as a leader of the group inside the DOJ—pushed Trump to move forward. But at the end of the day, the case came out of the Eastern District of Virginia.
Grace Won: Glenn Thrush, as Quinta said, there were some extraordinary machinations behind the scenes with this indictment. You and your colleagues at The New York Times looked into this extensively. Eric Siebert was the U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia. For people who may not be familiar, where is that district located, and does it often take cases like this?
Glenn Thrush: It’s located just south of Washington, D.C., and is known as EDVA. It’s one of the prime arenas for counterterrorism, cyber hacking, and national security cases. The Pentagon is there, along with many national security agencies.
I want to broaden this a bit. The “Weaponization Task Force” wasn’t created by Pam Bondi—it was created by President Trump. People in the White House essentially created a direct line into the DOJ around Bondi.
The key player isn’t Bondi but her deputy, Todd Blanch, Trump’s former lead defense lawyer. Ed Martin—rejected by the Senate for being too radical—was then inserted into the DOJ by Stephen Miller and Trump in an unusual arrangement that gave him power independent of DOJ leadership.
For all intents and purposes, the Weaponization Task Force is Ed Martin. He’s had trouble hiring staff, so he just does what he wants—mainly going down Trump’s enemies list. Letitia James, James Comey, Adam Schiff—all have been targets.
So, the Eastern District of Virginia became the venue for this case because Martin pressured Siebert from the White House to pursue these prosecutions. Siebert, who had a strong reputation, resisted.
Grace Won: And he was appointed by Trump earlier this year.
Glenn Thrush: Correct—by Trump. He had a good relationship with Bondi and her staff, but that wasn’t enough because he wasn’t bringing the indictments the White House wanted.
Grace Won: So what does that tell us?
Glenn Thrush: It tells us the White House is attempting to influence these prosecutions.
Grace Won: Well, let’s hear from James Comey.
James Comey (clip): “My heart is broken for the Department of Justice, but I have great confidence in the federal judicial system, and I’m innocent. So let’s have a trial and keep the faith.”
Grace Won: Izzy Ramsey, you’re the former U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of California, which covers fifteen counties in the northern part of the state. What is your response to the political pressure the president has placed on the Justice Department?
Ismail Ramsey: My response is: this is different. This is not consistent with the norms of the DOJ over the last three decades. There are numerous red flags in the Comey indictment that suggest outside influence.
The president’s texts, the timing of the indictment, reports that line prosecutors didn’t believe there was sufficient evidence, the resignation of the U.S. Attorney himself, Eric Siebert—and the personal involvement of the acting interim U.S. Attorney, who appeared before the grand jury—all are highly unusual. In my time as U.S. Attorney, I never appeared directly before a grand jury. Seeing the interim U.S. Attorney both sign the indictment and present it is a serious red flag.
Grace Won: We’re talking about the Justice Department. I’m Grace Won, in for Alexis Madrigal. More Forum after this break.
