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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For the first time since 2009, there is no salmon fishing season in California. This decision has hit fishers, coastal towns, and Native communities hard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it also wasn’t inevitable. KQED climate and science reporter Danielle Venton explains how the state’s choices around water management played a major role.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"card card--enclosed grey\">\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC1724950656&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to The Bay. Local News to keep you rooted. Something is missing from the ocean this summer as a result of declining populations. Fisheries regulators have made a drastic decision to cancel salmon fishing season.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sarah Bates: \u003c/strong>There’s a huge, conspicuous absence not only on the barbecue. There’s an absence in my fish hold. There’s an absence on the docks in San Francisco. There’s an absence in our markets, because there’s no fish in the ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Commercial fishers who rely on the salmon to make their living are struggling to get by.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>John McManus: \u003c/strong>Some people will be able to make a little bit of money targeting other species, but they’re going to lose a significant portion of their annual income.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And it’s not just commercial fishers who are feeling this. It’s the entire ecosystem of the state and California’s native tribes who’ve relied on the health of the salmon for generations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jason Jackson-Reed: \u003c/strong>We believe as Hupa peopl, that our social well-being and our physical our cultural, our spiritual well-being, it all runs parallel to the salmon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re going to talk with KQED reporter Danielle Vinton about what happened to the salmon and how decisions by the state helped bring us here. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>I come from a family of fisher folk. I think I knew how to Filet-O-Fish before I knew how to ride a bike.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Danielle Venton is a science and climate reporter for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>My dad was a big recreational fisherman and even tried commercial fishing for one year. When my cousin got married for the dinner, my dad and uncle and cousins would just go out day after day, catching their limit until we had enough salmon to barbecue for 200 people. You know, it’s a really cool kind of local thing, like a really cool thing to do, but that wouldn’t be possible this year. Obviously.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Let’s dive into it, Danielle. What exactly, I guess, is the state of the salmon season this year?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>Well, unfortunately, there is no salmon season. Usually the commercial season runs from May to October, so we should be right in the middle of it. Recreational season starts a little earlier than that and both are closed this year. There is no locally fresh caught salmon to be had. This is an industry that is valued at around $500 million. It’s also restaurants, tackle shops, private fishing guides, campgrounds. You know, there’s this whole tourism industry that is centered around California’s salmon season, and that’s dried up this year. The rules for tribal people are different because they’re different nations. So there is some tribal take allowed in rivers, but they are very much affected when salmon numbers are in decline. This is very abnormal. And the last time something like this happened was in 2008 and nine, and I don’t believe it had ever happened before that. Part of that reason is that we have rules and policies that are supposed to prevent exactly this kind of thing. I mean, this is a failure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Okay, before we get into the policy stuff, I want to understand the basics when it comes to salmon. How would you describe the life cycle of these fish? Like what is supposed to happen?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>Salmon are these strange kind of semi magical creatures. Salman are born in natal rivers and streams and in nests called reds. They hatch and they begin migrating downstream, even though they’ve been spent their entire life in a freshwater habitat. They’re able to change and live in a saltwater habitat. And they feed out in the ocean and fatten up their food for whales and all of us. And then they reach maturity and they feel the call of home and they return to the same rivers and streams that they were born in. Swim back up there and they spawn. The female like wiggles around in the gravel, builds a nest, lays her eggs. Male fish fertilize them, and then their bodies give out and they then feed their natural surroundings. You know, this is very important way where nutrients get transferred from the ocean back up into the streams. These are fish that kind of define an ecosystem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And here’s where humans come in. We decide how much water from our dams should go to the rivers where the seminar versus to irrigators like farms and agriculture. So what happened this time? Well, it starts a few years ago during a bad drought year when salmon didn’t get the water they needed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>The fish that should be in the ocean right now waiting to be caught in on our dinner plate were born in their birth streams back in the fall of 2020. 2020 was a drought year. 2019 was a really wet year. And so water managers had delivered a lot of water to irrigators in 2019. They didn’t save it in reservoirs and as we went into 2020, there wasn’t a lot of water in the dams. There was a case of kind of climate whiplash and that water is needed to be released into the river to maintain kind of minimum flows like the amount of water that’s flowing down and to maintain temperatures. These fish like cool, clean flowing water. And so as we went into 2020, there wasn’t a lot of water to be released into these dams and some of the nests and that were born that year. They dried up and a lot of the fish that were born kind of cooked to death because conditions were just so warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s a chilling, chilling image, like these eggs being cooked. Was this inevitable? I mean, climate change is happening, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>So climate change is definitely happening and puts more stress on the rivers. But also, California has made a lot of policy decisions that pushed us in this direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jon Rosenfield \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s inextricably linked to state and federal water policies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>So, someone who pays really close attention to this is Jon Rosenfield, and he’s the senior scientist with the San Francisco Baykeeper. He points to inaction on part of the state as leading to this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jon Rosenfield \u003c/strong>We have increasingly good scientific evidence that that journey, the success of that journey, is really dependent on the flow and in rivers when the fish are trying to migrate. The lower the flow, the less they survive. And that flow in the rivers is also determined by state and federal water management policies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>So in California, we have these kind of sets of rules that govern how water should work in the state. And what is supposed to happen is that they are meant to be reevaluated and updated if needed every three years. In reality, the plan controlling what happens in the Sacramento Delta. It dates from 1995. It’s been updated here and there, but it is really awaiting a big overhaul. In 2018, the Jerry Brown administration tried to update part of those rules. He allowed his water agency to kind of take, you know, exert some control in this area. They were coming up with a new plan to increase the flows and to really improve conditions in those rivers. It was going to mean less water for irrigators. Irrigators were really upset. But it was seen as a plan that was very effective for improving ecosystem health and, you know, advocating on behalf of the fish and on behalf of communities that live along these rivers that kind of want to enjoy clean, flowing water. But 2018 was also the year that Governor Newsom was elected. And before they could go into effect, he basically put a chill on that and said, we’re just going to pause and we’re not going to do that right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jon Rosenfield \u003c/strong>Governor Newsom and throughout his administration, starting on election night, has actively blocked update of those water quality standards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Why has governor, after governor failed to update these rules, which seem really important, especially when water just increasingly seems to be this sort of like finite resource and is we have to make decisions about where that water goes, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>I mean, this is not a politically winning issue. It’s very difficult. You have different sides that have different values. It’s a hard it’s a hard issue. I mean, people talk about, you know, these California water wars. This is something that’s been going on for decades and it’s still going on. And, you know, to some people’s mind, they just don’t feel winnable. I mean, agriculture is a very big political player in our state, and a lot of money can be made in agriculture. They have very old claims on water and there is a lot of political power behind, you know, big agribusiness interests. And Governor, after governor and you know, many people believe Newsom in particular is very loathe to do anything to upset them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Governor Newsom has gotten a lot of heat for this. How has he responded to allegations that their policy decisions are to blame for what’s happened to the salmon this year?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>Governor Newsom has pushed away the idea of any responsibility for this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom: \u003c/strong>I take this issue seriously. I’ll take a backseat to no governor in the United States of America in terms of my environmental stewardship and passion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>He was asked about this at a press conference this spring. And, you know, his response was pretty striking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom: \u003c/strong>What what occurs? The salmon that happened three years ago. So anyone who suggests otherwise is being purposely misleading or a knowingly misleading.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>I basically I couldn’t possibly have had any effect on that. You know, and he he has been governor for four and a half years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It seems like everyone affected agrees that something went wrong. And the governor clearly thinks he has nothing to do with it. But, I mean, going back to these rules, Danielle, they haven’t been updated in decades. So what is the state’s vision here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>So the state has put its emphasis behind what are called voluntary agreements, and these are non regulatory frameworks. The state says that these are voluntary agreements are a better approach because if everyone can kind of get the part that they really care about, then maybe we can avoid lawsuits. That’s part of why these plans are so hard to update because they are tied up in litigation for years and years and years and years. Tribes and conservation groups and environmental justice groups say that these agreements are completely unacceptable because they cut them out of the decision making process when the real important decisions are being made and that the state has only asked for feedback on their voluntary agreements after, you know, they were largely hashed out. And they say that’s totally unacceptable. And the big emphasis of these voluntary agreements are restoring habitat, which is great, but it seems a big emphasis of these agreements is not putting more water in the rivers and allowing more water to flow. And, you know, fish can have all the habitat they want, but if there’s not water in the river, they’re not going to make it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It sounds like you’re saying it’s just kind of impossible at this point to really think that we can satisfy everyone when it comes to water, when there isn’t enough of it, and someone has to make that hard decision.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>Yeah, but I would say like there is definitely enough water for everyone to have drinking water for everyone to wash their dishes and have showers and stuff. I mean, the point where this gets really difficult is like, can we grow hundreds of thousands of acres of nut trees that are exported around the world and that are extremely profitable and are extremely thirsty crops? We’re not talking about subsistence agriculture here. We’re not talking about growing the food that we’re going to survive on. You know, to hear some people at the state level talk, you would think that like if we all just sit together at the same table and put our heads together and hash it out, we can come up with some compromise where everyone can get their needs and wants met. And I’m not sure that that’s realistic, especially in difficult dry years if salmon are going to get the amount of water that they need to support them. We are not also going to be able to support the number of acres that are currently planted. Something is going to give.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, what’s next here, Danielle? Like, what are these communities, these fissures, these tribes? What are they pushing for now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>They’re pushing for the state to take more action. They’re pushing for a seat at the table. I recently attended a rally in Sacramento on the Capitol steps where, you know, this broad coalition came together to try to get the attention of lawmakers. There’s also a group that feels so neglected by the state that they are petitioning the Environmental Protection Agents Agency, a federal agency, to step in and enforce the Clean Water Act. They say that’s how dire it is and that the state is not taking care of their needs and that that is a violation of their civil rights. And the last I heard, the EPA was kind of looking at this issue and deciding if they had the authority to step in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jason Jackson-Reed: \u003c/strong>And if the salmon aren’t doing good, we’re not doing good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>So I spoke with a man, Jason Jackson-Reed, who’s a member of the Hoopa Valley Tribe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jason Jackson-Reed: \u003c/strong>Our physical, our cultural, our spiritual well-being, it all runs parallel to the salmon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>And he was there at the rally with his one year, one month old son cradled in a carrier, very much thinking about the next generation. He said that this story is not going to change until native people start having a role in making management decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jason Jackson-Reed: \u003c/strong>It’s not going to change until, you know, the natives start writing the narrative and we start reading, digitizing, you know, a management.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ve been talking about salmon. And I think it’s fair to say that most people interact with salmon when they eat it. But beyond that, why should we all have a stake in having a healthy salmon season.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>When salmon are doing well, the environment is doing well, and that’s an environment that supports us all and that we all enjoy. It is part of the natural heritage of the state. And supporting salmon also supports the native people who were the original caretakers of this land. A lot of people talk about this issue in these very simple terms, this very simple dichotomy of fish versus farms. And of course, we support farms and we need food. But salmon are also food, and a healthy salmon run means a healthy environment. Salmon. And to simplify it. Almond trees are not equivalent species. You know, one is integral to California environment, the people of California. And one is an export crop that is profitable and that is optional to grow. Each of us can decide where our values lie within that. But, you know, for thinking about the long term future, our life is getting better. Our children’s life is going to be better if we do take care of rivers and streams and the health of our salmon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Danielle, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for having me, Ericka.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Governor Newsom has requested federal disaster relief money for commercial fishers impacted by the canceled salmon season. Danielle says that money is believed to be on its way, but it’s not here yet. Meanwhile, Danielle says fishers that she’s spoken with have told her they’d much rather fish than have to rely on these funds. That was Danielle Venton, a science and climate reporter for KQED. At the top of this episode, you also heard from Sarah Bates, a commercial fisher. John McManus with the Golden State Salmon Association. And Jason Jackson Reed, a member of the Hoopa Valley Tribe. This 45-minute conversation with Danielle was cut down and edited by our senior editor, Alan Montecillo. Maria Esquinca is our producer. She scored this episode and added all the tape. The rest of our team here at KQED includes Jen Chien. Our director of podcasts, Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager. César Saldaña, our podcast engagement producer. And Holly Kernan, our chief content officer. The Bay is a production of a member supported KQED in San Francisco. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara. Thank you so much for listening. From all of us here at The Bay, Peace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\u003c/div>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Why California’s Salmon Season Was Canceled | KQED",
"description": "View the full episode transcript. For the first time since 2009, there is no salmon fishing season in California. This decision has hit fishers, coastal towns, and Native communities hard. But it also wasn’t inevitable. KQED climate and science reporter Danielle Venton explains how the state’s choices around water management played a major role. Episode Transcript This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors. Ericka Cruz Guevarra: I'm Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to The Bay. Local News to keep you rooted. Something is missing from the ocean this summer as a result",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For the first time since 2009, there is no salmon fishing season in California. This decision has hit fishers, coastal towns, and Native communities hard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it also wasn’t inevitable. KQED climate and science reporter Danielle Venton explains how the state’s choices around water management played a major role.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"card card--enclosed grey\">\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC1724950656&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to The Bay. Local News to keep you rooted. Something is missing from the ocean this summer as a result of declining populations. Fisheries regulators have made a drastic decision to cancel salmon fishing season.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sarah Bates: \u003c/strong>There’s a huge, conspicuous absence not only on the barbecue. There’s an absence in my fish hold. There’s an absence on the docks in San Francisco. There’s an absence in our markets, because there’s no fish in the ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Commercial fishers who rely on the salmon to make their living are struggling to get by.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>John McManus: \u003c/strong>Some people will be able to make a little bit of money targeting other species, but they’re going to lose a significant portion of their annual income.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And it’s not just commercial fishers who are feeling this. It’s the entire ecosystem of the state and California’s native tribes who’ve relied on the health of the salmon for generations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jason Jackson-Reed: \u003c/strong>We believe as Hupa peopl, that our social well-being and our physical our cultural, our spiritual well-being, it all runs parallel to the salmon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re going to talk with KQED reporter Danielle Vinton about what happened to the salmon and how decisions by the state helped bring us here. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>I come from a family of fisher folk. I think I knew how to Filet-O-Fish before I knew how to ride a bike.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Danielle Venton is a science and climate reporter for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>My dad was a big recreational fisherman and even tried commercial fishing for one year. When my cousin got married for the dinner, my dad and uncle and cousins would just go out day after day, catching their limit until we had enough salmon to barbecue for 200 people. You know, it’s a really cool kind of local thing, like a really cool thing to do, but that wouldn’t be possible this year. Obviously.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Let’s dive into it, Danielle. What exactly, I guess, is the state of the salmon season this year?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>Well, unfortunately, there is no salmon season. Usually the commercial season runs from May to October, so we should be right in the middle of it. Recreational season starts a little earlier than that and both are closed this year. There is no locally fresh caught salmon to be had. This is an industry that is valued at around $500 million. It’s also restaurants, tackle shops, private fishing guides, campgrounds. You know, there’s this whole tourism industry that is centered around California’s salmon season, and that’s dried up this year. The rules for tribal people are different because they’re different nations. So there is some tribal take allowed in rivers, but they are very much affected when salmon numbers are in decline. This is very abnormal. And the last time something like this happened was in 2008 and nine, and I don’t believe it had ever happened before that. Part of that reason is that we have rules and policies that are supposed to prevent exactly this kind of thing. I mean, this is a failure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Okay, before we get into the policy stuff, I want to understand the basics when it comes to salmon. How would you describe the life cycle of these fish? Like what is supposed to happen?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>Salmon are these strange kind of semi magical creatures. Salman are born in natal rivers and streams and in nests called reds. They hatch and they begin migrating downstream, even though they’ve been spent their entire life in a freshwater habitat. They’re able to change and live in a saltwater habitat. And they feed out in the ocean and fatten up their food for whales and all of us. And then they reach maturity and they feel the call of home and they return to the same rivers and streams that they were born in. Swim back up there and they spawn. The female like wiggles around in the gravel, builds a nest, lays her eggs. Male fish fertilize them, and then their bodies give out and they then feed their natural surroundings. You know, this is very important way where nutrients get transferred from the ocean back up into the streams. These are fish that kind of define an ecosystem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And here’s where humans come in. We decide how much water from our dams should go to the rivers where the seminar versus to irrigators like farms and agriculture. So what happened this time? Well, it starts a few years ago during a bad drought year when salmon didn’t get the water they needed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>The fish that should be in the ocean right now waiting to be caught in on our dinner plate were born in their birth streams back in the fall of 2020. 2020 was a drought year. 2019 was a really wet year. And so water managers had delivered a lot of water to irrigators in 2019. They didn’t save it in reservoirs and as we went into 2020, there wasn’t a lot of water in the dams. There was a case of kind of climate whiplash and that water is needed to be released into the river to maintain kind of minimum flows like the amount of water that’s flowing down and to maintain temperatures. These fish like cool, clean flowing water. And so as we went into 2020, there wasn’t a lot of water to be released into these dams and some of the nests and that were born that year. They dried up and a lot of the fish that were born kind of cooked to death because conditions were just so warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s a chilling, chilling image, like these eggs being cooked. Was this inevitable? I mean, climate change is happening, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>So climate change is definitely happening and puts more stress on the rivers. But also, California has made a lot of policy decisions that pushed us in this direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jon Rosenfield \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s inextricably linked to state and federal water policies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>So, someone who pays really close attention to this is Jon Rosenfield, and he’s the senior scientist with the San Francisco Baykeeper. He points to inaction on part of the state as leading to this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jon Rosenfield \u003c/strong>We have increasingly good scientific evidence that that journey, the success of that journey, is really dependent on the flow and in rivers when the fish are trying to migrate. The lower the flow, the less they survive. And that flow in the rivers is also determined by state and federal water management policies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>So in California, we have these kind of sets of rules that govern how water should work in the state. And what is supposed to happen is that they are meant to be reevaluated and updated if needed every three years. In reality, the plan controlling what happens in the Sacramento Delta. It dates from 1995. It’s been updated here and there, but it is really awaiting a big overhaul. In 2018, the Jerry Brown administration tried to update part of those rules. He allowed his water agency to kind of take, you know, exert some control in this area. They were coming up with a new plan to increase the flows and to really improve conditions in those rivers. It was going to mean less water for irrigators. Irrigators were really upset. But it was seen as a plan that was very effective for improving ecosystem health and, you know, advocating on behalf of the fish and on behalf of communities that live along these rivers that kind of want to enjoy clean, flowing water. But 2018 was also the year that Governor Newsom was elected. And before they could go into effect, he basically put a chill on that and said, we’re just going to pause and we’re not going to do that right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jon Rosenfield \u003c/strong>Governor Newsom and throughout his administration, starting on election night, has actively blocked update of those water quality standards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Why has governor, after governor failed to update these rules, which seem really important, especially when water just increasingly seems to be this sort of like finite resource and is we have to make decisions about where that water goes, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>I mean, this is not a politically winning issue. It’s very difficult. You have different sides that have different values. It’s a hard it’s a hard issue. I mean, people talk about, you know, these California water wars. This is something that’s been going on for decades and it’s still going on. And, you know, to some people’s mind, they just don’t feel winnable. I mean, agriculture is a very big political player in our state, and a lot of money can be made in agriculture. They have very old claims on water and there is a lot of political power behind, you know, big agribusiness interests. And Governor, after governor and you know, many people believe Newsom in particular is very loathe to do anything to upset them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Governor Newsom has gotten a lot of heat for this. How has he responded to allegations that their policy decisions are to blame for what’s happened to the salmon this year?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>Governor Newsom has pushed away the idea of any responsibility for this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom: \u003c/strong>I take this issue seriously. I’ll take a backseat to no governor in the United States of America in terms of my environmental stewardship and passion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>He was asked about this at a press conference this spring. And, you know, his response was pretty striking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom: \u003c/strong>What what occurs? The salmon that happened three years ago. So anyone who suggests otherwise is being purposely misleading or a knowingly misleading.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>I basically I couldn’t possibly have had any effect on that. You know, and he he has been governor for four and a half years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It seems like everyone affected agrees that something went wrong. And the governor clearly thinks he has nothing to do with it. But, I mean, going back to these rules, Danielle, they haven’t been updated in decades. So what is the state’s vision here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>So the state has put its emphasis behind what are called voluntary agreements, and these are non regulatory frameworks. The state says that these are voluntary agreements are a better approach because if everyone can kind of get the part that they really care about, then maybe we can avoid lawsuits. That’s part of why these plans are so hard to update because they are tied up in litigation for years and years and years and years. Tribes and conservation groups and environmental justice groups say that these agreements are completely unacceptable because they cut them out of the decision making process when the real important decisions are being made and that the state has only asked for feedback on their voluntary agreements after, you know, they were largely hashed out. And they say that’s totally unacceptable. And the big emphasis of these voluntary agreements are restoring habitat, which is great, but it seems a big emphasis of these agreements is not putting more water in the rivers and allowing more water to flow. And, you know, fish can have all the habitat they want, but if there’s not water in the river, they’re not going to make it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It sounds like you’re saying it’s just kind of impossible at this point to really think that we can satisfy everyone when it comes to water, when there isn’t enough of it, and someone has to make that hard decision.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>Yeah, but I would say like there is definitely enough water for everyone to have drinking water for everyone to wash their dishes and have showers and stuff. I mean, the point where this gets really difficult is like, can we grow hundreds of thousands of acres of nut trees that are exported around the world and that are extremely profitable and are extremely thirsty crops? We’re not talking about subsistence agriculture here. We’re not talking about growing the food that we’re going to survive on. You know, to hear some people at the state level talk, you would think that like if we all just sit together at the same table and put our heads together and hash it out, we can come up with some compromise where everyone can get their needs and wants met. And I’m not sure that that’s realistic, especially in difficult dry years if salmon are going to get the amount of water that they need to support them. We are not also going to be able to support the number of acres that are currently planted. Something is going to give.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, what’s next here, Danielle? Like, what are these communities, these fissures, these tribes? What are they pushing for now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>They’re pushing for the state to take more action. They’re pushing for a seat at the table. I recently attended a rally in Sacramento on the Capitol steps where, you know, this broad coalition came together to try to get the attention of lawmakers. There’s also a group that feels so neglected by the state that they are petitioning the Environmental Protection Agents Agency, a federal agency, to step in and enforce the Clean Water Act. They say that’s how dire it is and that the state is not taking care of their needs and that that is a violation of their civil rights. And the last I heard, the EPA was kind of looking at this issue and deciding if they had the authority to step in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jason Jackson-Reed: \u003c/strong>And if the salmon aren’t doing good, we’re not doing good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>So I spoke with a man, Jason Jackson-Reed, who’s a member of the Hoopa Valley Tribe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jason Jackson-Reed: \u003c/strong>Our physical, our cultural, our spiritual well-being, it all runs parallel to the salmon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>And he was there at the rally with his one year, one month old son cradled in a carrier, very much thinking about the next generation. He said that this story is not going to change until native people start having a role in making management decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jason Jackson-Reed: \u003c/strong>It’s not going to change until, you know, the natives start writing the narrative and we start reading, digitizing, you know, a management.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ve been talking about salmon. And I think it’s fair to say that most people interact with salmon when they eat it. But beyond that, why should we all have a stake in having a healthy salmon season.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>When salmon are doing well, the environment is doing well, and that’s an environment that supports us all and that we all enjoy. It is part of the natural heritage of the state. And supporting salmon also supports the native people who were the original caretakers of this land. A lot of people talk about this issue in these very simple terms, this very simple dichotomy of fish versus farms. And of course, we support farms and we need food. But salmon are also food, and a healthy salmon run means a healthy environment. Salmon. And to simplify it. Almond trees are not equivalent species. You know, one is integral to California environment, the people of California. And one is an export crop that is profitable and that is optional to grow. Each of us can decide where our values lie within that. But, you know, for thinking about the long term future, our life is getting better. Our children’s life is going to be better if we do take care of rivers and streams and the health of our salmon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Danielle, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for having me, Ericka.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Governor Newsom has requested federal disaster relief money for commercial fishers impacted by the canceled salmon season. Danielle says that money is believed to be on its way, but it’s not here yet. Meanwhile, Danielle says fishers that she’s spoken with have told her they’d much rather fish than have to rely on these funds. That was Danielle Venton, a science and climate reporter for KQED. At the top of this episode, you also heard from Sarah Bates, a commercial fisher. John McManus with the Golden State Salmon Association. And Jason Jackson Reed, a member of the Hoopa Valley Tribe. This 45-minute conversation with Danielle was cut down and edited by our senior editor, Alan Montecillo. Maria Esquinca is our producer. She scored this episode and added all the tape. The rest of our team here at KQED includes Jen Chien. Our director of podcasts, Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager. César Saldaña, our podcast engagement producer. And Holly Kernan, our chief content officer. The Bay is a production of a member supported KQED in San Francisco. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara. Thank you so much for listening. From all of us here at The Bay, Peace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\u003c/div>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "A Campaign to Recall Alameda County’s Progressive DA Kicks Off",
"headTitle": "A Campaign to Recall Alameda County’s Progressive DA Kicks Off | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A committee called Save Alameda For Everyone (SAFE) has filed documents for a recall campaign against progressive Alameda County District Attorney Pamela Price. KQED’s \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/FitzTheReporter\">Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez\u003c/a> explains why this is happening — and whether DA Price could face the same fate as Chesa Boudin did in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC9916568677\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And we’re back to regularly scheduled programing, folks. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. And welcome back to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. Alameda County made history last year when voters elected a progressive district attorney named Pamela Price. Price was a civil rights lawyer who grew up in the foster care and juvenile justice system, and she promised a different approach to criminal justice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>When we invest in community support for people with mental illness, when we invest in services and opportunities for young people, when we invest in our community, that’s when we’ll see crime go down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Now, less than a year into her term, fears about gun violence, robberies and car break ins are fueling an effort to boot race out of office and prices in a tough spot. Because while the investments she wants to make take time to trickle down into the community, there are people who want something to be done about the crimes happening right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>The opponents of progressive policies have very strong emotional arguments they can make by pointing to these cases where, you know, perhaps some tragedy happened and there wasn’t a as harsh a sentence as maybe a victim would prefer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So, how bad is crime in Alameda County, really? And what does Pamela Price say she’s going to do with it? All that and more on the recall right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>The recall against most delays in the state has been predicated on the idea that crime is rising and that progressive policies are contributing to rising crime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez is a politics and government reporter for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>It’s a bit of a messy argument, though, because crime has risen and dropped in trends that we see happening across the country. Sometimes, as some of our colleagues here actually have shown, the crime rates are actually higher in places with conservative district attorneys. But there is a climate of fear around crime. And so what we’re seeing is the earliest hints of a recall, a recall that has been established as a campaign committee, which means it’s taking the legal steps to establish itself, which means it’s very early. We don’t know how much money they’re going to raise or can raise or how effective they’ll be. But there’s a recall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Who is behind this recall effort in Alameda County to get Pamela Price: out of office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>But I want to temper first by saying until we see where the money is coming from. We won’t have a full picture of all of who is behind this recall effort. But so far, the names that were registered on the documents with the Albany County Elections office are Carl Chan, who is a Oakland Chinatown Chamber of Commerce leader; Phillip Dreyfus, who donated $10,000 to the effort to remove former San Francisco district attorney Chesa Boudin; and Brenda Grisham. She’s the principal officer of the recall effort against Pamela Price, and Grisham is a victims rights advocate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I know Brenda is actually someone who’s personally affected by crime in Alameda County. Can you tell me a little bit more about her background?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Ms. grisham is from East Oakland. Her son, Christopher, was shot and killed in 2010.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>And this year, it will make 13 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>And they never caught the person who shot and killed her son. But having lost her son so early, she took that pain and galvanized it into action. And she formed a foundation named after her son, Christopher Lavelle Jones Foundation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>We just recently celebrated the 12 year anniversary of the foundation because it took me like a year to figure out how I wanted to keep Christopher’s name alive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>She’s essentially taken that experience and used it to help others who went through what she did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>Here in our local area. I’ve helped with getting some policies and procedures to help with the victims of crime, have helped in getting the victims of crime money increased so that families can, you know, really take care of the business after the loss of a loved one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>What is her main argument for recalling price? Why does she want to be involved in this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>So they have not made any formal announcements yet. And when I talked to Ms.. Grisham, she said that she would not speak on behalf of the recall during our interview. But what she said personally, she doesn’t believe that folks should see lighter sentences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>Oh, sentencing is definitely an issue. Yes. We got to get to a common ground. I don’t see that’s going to happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>She thinks that progressive DA’s have made too many arguments about why perpetrators of crime do what they do. Trying to analyze too much, the systems that push them into that crime and saying, you know what? If you decided to do that crime, that’s made the choice, you’re done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>The idea of who the victim is is what the problem is. The people that have been traumatized by the actual act are the victims.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>You know, Ms.. Grisham has personal experience with, too. She related to me an experience where she brought some of her fellow members from her foundation who are all victims or survivors of crime, to speak to Pamela Price. And she described a very tense situation where perhaps the price was perhaps not as politic with them as she could have been, in fact, to hear Grisham tell it. D.A. Price was defensive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>She never talked to them as they were victims. She never said, I’m sorry for your loss. None of that. She had a condescending tone that I don’t like. When you’re being professional, you don’t talk to people like they are, but they feel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And Joey know that there’s usually like this ramp up that happens to a recall campaign that really builds from stories or cases that people end up really pointing to as examples and rationale for recalling someone in office. Right. What are some of the important cases in Alameda County that are really fueling this effort to recall Pamela Price?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Just to take a step back from this, the opponents of progressive policies have very strong emotional arguments they can make by pointing to these cases where some tragedy happened and there wasn’t a as harsh a sentence as maybe a victim would prefer. And so we’re seeing this argument being made in the case of Jasper Wu, a toddler who was shot and killed in 2021 while in a car with his mother heading home to Fremont from San Francisco. Jasper was sadly caught up in gunshots between adult men who were shooting at one another. There are two men who are defendants in the in the case of the death of young Jasper, Wu, Ivory Bivins and Trevor GREENE were both 24 and 22, respectively. And essentially, Pamela Price has decided not to pursue what we call special circumstances enhancements with those two men.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Special circumstances are basically an add on charge that a d.a. Can apply that can lead to much harsher punishments for people accused of murder. That could mean life in prison without parole or even the death penalty for the accused. Pamela Price has vowed to stop pursuing special circumstances, citing numbers that show that black defendants are disproportionately more likely to face these charges. But some residents strongly oppose this idea, especially when it comes to high profile crimes where people really want to see justice come down hard, like in the case of Jasper Woo’s death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>You know, it touches on a few different things in the community, right? Jasper Woo is an Asian child, so it touches on the hearts of those who have been really affected by the anti-Asian hate we’ve seen since the rise of the pandemic. It also touches on this fear of rising crime and this idea of lawlessness. It’s kind of a nexus case of all of these fears that are really coming together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>But to be clear and just to clarify, these two men are still facing charges, just not these sort of special circumstances enhancement that people, it sounds like, are really want to see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Yeah, if convicted, Bivins is facing 265 years to life in prison. Green faces 175 years to life in prison. These men are facing incredibly steep charges for what they did. The only difference here is there is some possibility of parole.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, I want to talk, Joe, more about this feeling that crime is up and these fears around crime, because it does sound like the tension here is between, you know, these progressive policies that maybe take a longer to really see the fruits of, whereas, you know, there’s this feeling that people want something to be done about crime right now. And they know that especially in Oakland, there’s really this feeling of rise in crime is particularly relevant. What does the data actually show, though?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Alameda County has more than a dozen cities in it. Oakland is not the only one, but perhaps the city that will become the crux of most discussions will be Oakland. Oakland’s crime numbers have fluctuated. In June, a number of crimes across the city were down. Number of types of crimes, including assaults, were down. The crime rate itself was down in total compared to the same time last year. But as we see happen in summer months, this is a normal occurrence. In July, those numbers tracked up. Crime was up compared to the same time last year. You could have different arguments about why it’s up at the same time last year, higher than last year, but it is up in July. But as we’ve seen, they’ve gone up and down and down and up. And historically, at least compared to decades ago, crime is low. But what we hear and what we hear across the state and the country is this fear of crime. And a lot of it has been stoked by these videos. We see viral videos of crime. And people are afraid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Coming up, Pamela Price’s thoughts on the recall and what happens from here. How has Pamela Price responded to this effort to recall her, Joe?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Pamela Price had some real harsh words for those who are behind this effort.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>These are election deniers. They lost the election. So they want to have a do over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Subverting democracy that they’re comparable to the people in the January six insurrection, that they’re Republicans, that they’re out-of-towners. And she was she didn’t hold back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>Their candidate lost. And so they want to have a second bite at the apple. And that’s not that’s undemocratic. That’s not how democracy works. People get to vote and your vote matters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>The opponents of a power price say that crime is worse and people are afraid. And that’s bad. While prices fault for her progressive policies. And Pamela Price will argue a D.A. is one actor among many in the criminal justice system, including the police offenders, the role of education, the county and economic health and all of those have a place in the crime rate. And the D.A. does not really have a strong influence on crime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>A D.A. has no effect whatsoever on crime rates. That is a failed measure. And it’s been proven over and over across the country. That’s not how you measure the performance of your district attorney. When we invest in community support for people with mental illness, when we invest in services and opportunities for young people, when we invest in our community, that’s when we’ll see crime go down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>I will say I have spoken to some academics about this. They also argue that really what you need is a preponderance of data about recidivism and diversion rates. The progressives have the tough argument here because their argument is one that is measured in time, whereas people who have a more kind of law and order view are measuring it by individual trauma and individual pain, which is much easier to show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So if Pamela Price thinks crime rates are a bad way of measuring the success of a day, how does she measure success? Like what accomplishments does she really point to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>I think what she really points to is, is how she is trying to wrap around services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>We have established a civil rights bureau. We’ve created a community support bureau. We have worked on the victim witness advocates making sure that we’re expanding those services, as well as expanding the outreach of the collaborative course, the mental health courts, and dealing with mental health diversion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>She tells me we helping getting multilingual support for victims of crime. We’re updating collaborative courts so that we can have more diversions for people who use drugs and have other low level offenses, aren’t going to jail, but are instead are getting help that they need. There’s mental health courts where she’s hired some of the first mental health clinicians. You know, the mental health courts had attorneys, but no mental health experts. So she hired the.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>Obviously our Public Accountability Unit, which is part of the Civil Rights Bureau, initially looked at eight cases of police misconduct and we’re holding police accountable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>But one of the other major tenets of helping to stem the cycle of crime from her point of view, is to reduce sentencing with the hope that reducing sentencing can help communities heal, can help individuals get out of the cycle of crime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>And the mandate is the same. We cannot continue to over incarcerate and over criminalize black and brown people in this community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>She’s only been in office six months before this recall campaign started. And I think she’s going to try to argue that, hey, give me time to to do what you elected me to do. I said all this on the campaign trail. I said I was going to lessen the sentences. I said I was going to do special circumstances. I said I was going to charge minors as minors and not as adults. These are the reasons that you voted for me. She will say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>Alameda County is a very special place that I’ve been embraced by for 40 years, and I was elected to do the job and I’m going to continue to do the job that I was elected to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’re still early on, it sounds like. But I mean, you’ve already been talking about this sort of comparison that a lot of people are making between what happened in San Francisco and the recall of former district attorney Jason Boudin. But is that a fair comparison here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>I think the lessons that we can take from Chase’s recall are select ones. But you have to remember the recall. Chase Aberdeen was in San Francisco, which is both one city and one county in Alameda County. There’s more than a dozen cities. So that’s a lot of places to gather signatures. There’s a lot of ground to have to cover. That’s going to cost some money. And so what will determine the viability of this recall effort will be the amount of money that we see it raising in the near future. Another big difference that folks pointed out to me is that the demographics of Alameda County are a lot different. San Francisco has become wealthier. San Francisco has become whiter. San Francisco has a very small black population. And now I’m not going to argue that the black population in Alameda County is monolithic. There are certainly people across the political spectrum there. But because there is a higher black population in Alameda County, there are more folks who have a more direct experience with law enforcement. More progressive folks who have argued and will argue that they want criminal justice reform. And that’s something that might have a stronger pull in Alameda County than we saw on San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, what are you going to be watching, Joe, in the next couple of months?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>I’m going to be watching to see how Pambo prizes arguments evolve around keeping herself in office. I’m definitely interested to see if she continues on the same tack and the same set of arguments the Chaser routine used before he was ousted. I’m curious to see how much money the recall proponents raise and if they’re able to signature gather to the level that they want. I’m interested to see some of the cases that Pamela Price tries and see if they continue to garner the same attention as Jasper Wu’s case. There was just a community meeting just the night before. We’re recording this in the Oakland Hills, where a lot of folks in those wealthier areas were quite angry, detailing car break ins and such. And Pamela Price had to answer to a lot of angry folks who thought that her policies might be making them less safe. And she argued directly to them that she didn’t think that her policies add anything to do with the level of crime, that they should direct their ire to the police.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Joe, I’m sure I’ll be talking with you about all of this again sometime soon. But thanks so much for breaking this down. I appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Absolutely. Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Now that the necessary papers have been filed, the campaign will have to gather more than 93,000 signatures to get this question of whether to recall Pamela Price on the ballot. And it’s going to take a lot of cash to get that task done. Upwards of $1,000,000, according to one estimate. That was Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez, a politics and government reporter for KQED. This 40-minute conversation with Joe was cut down and edited by producer Maria Esquinca. Alan Montecillo is our senior editor. He scored this episode and added all the tape. And I am Ericka Cruz Guevara. Welcome back to The Bay. It’s so good to be back in your feed. Hope you can wrap us back into your daily routine here. And we appreciate you for listening and for rocking with us and for sticking around. We’ll talk to you next time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A committee called Save Alameda For Everyone (SAFE) has filed documents for a recall campaign against progressive Alameda County District Attorney Pamela Price. KQED’s \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/FitzTheReporter\">Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez\u003c/a> explains why this is happening — and whether DA Price could face the same fate as Chesa Boudin did in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC9916568677\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And we’re back to regularly scheduled programing, folks. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. And welcome back to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. Alameda County made history last year when voters elected a progressive district attorney named Pamela Price. Price was a civil rights lawyer who grew up in the foster care and juvenile justice system, and she promised a different approach to criminal justice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>When we invest in community support for people with mental illness, when we invest in services and opportunities for young people, when we invest in our community, that’s when we’ll see crime go down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Now, less than a year into her term, fears about gun violence, robberies and car break ins are fueling an effort to boot race out of office and prices in a tough spot. Because while the investments she wants to make take time to trickle down into the community, there are people who want something to be done about the crimes happening right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>The opponents of progressive policies have very strong emotional arguments they can make by pointing to these cases where, you know, perhaps some tragedy happened and there wasn’t a as harsh a sentence as maybe a victim would prefer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So, how bad is crime in Alameda County, really? And what does Pamela Price say she’s going to do with it? All that and more on the recall right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>The recall against most delays in the state has been predicated on the idea that crime is rising and that progressive policies are contributing to rising crime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez is a politics and government reporter for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>It’s a bit of a messy argument, though, because crime has risen and dropped in trends that we see happening across the country. Sometimes, as some of our colleagues here actually have shown, the crime rates are actually higher in places with conservative district attorneys. But there is a climate of fear around crime. And so what we’re seeing is the earliest hints of a recall, a recall that has been established as a campaign committee, which means it’s taking the legal steps to establish itself, which means it’s very early. We don’t know how much money they’re going to raise or can raise or how effective they’ll be. But there’s a recall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Who is behind this recall effort in Alameda County to get Pamela Price: out of office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>But I want to temper first by saying until we see where the money is coming from. We won’t have a full picture of all of who is behind this recall effort. But so far, the names that were registered on the documents with the Albany County Elections office are Carl Chan, who is a Oakland Chinatown Chamber of Commerce leader; Phillip Dreyfus, who donated $10,000 to the effort to remove former San Francisco district attorney Chesa Boudin; and Brenda Grisham. She’s the principal officer of the recall effort against Pamela Price, and Grisham is a victims rights advocate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I know Brenda is actually someone who’s personally affected by crime in Alameda County. Can you tell me a little bit more about her background?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Ms. grisham is from East Oakland. Her son, Christopher, was shot and killed in 2010.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>And this year, it will make 13 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>And they never caught the person who shot and killed her son. But having lost her son so early, she took that pain and galvanized it into action. And she formed a foundation named after her son, Christopher Lavelle Jones Foundation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>We just recently celebrated the 12 year anniversary of the foundation because it took me like a year to figure out how I wanted to keep Christopher’s name alive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>She’s essentially taken that experience and used it to help others who went through what she did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>Here in our local area. I’ve helped with getting some policies and procedures to help with the victims of crime, have helped in getting the victims of crime money increased so that families can, you know, really take care of the business after the loss of a loved one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>What is her main argument for recalling price? Why does she want to be involved in this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>So they have not made any formal announcements yet. And when I talked to Ms.. Grisham, she said that she would not speak on behalf of the recall during our interview. But what she said personally, she doesn’t believe that folks should see lighter sentences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>Oh, sentencing is definitely an issue. Yes. We got to get to a common ground. I don’t see that’s going to happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>She thinks that progressive DA’s have made too many arguments about why perpetrators of crime do what they do. Trying to analyze too much, the systems that push them into that crime and saying, you know what? If you decided to do that crime, that’s made the choice, you’re done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>The idea of who the victim is is what the problem is. The people that have been traumatized by the actual act are the victims.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>You know, Ms.. Grisham has personal experience with, too. She related to me an experience where she brought some of her fellow members from her foundation who are all victims or survivors of crime, to speak to Pamela Price. And she described a very tense situation where perhaps the price was perhaps not as politic with them as she could have been, in fact, to hear Grisham tell it. D.A. Price was defensive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>She never talked to them as they were victims. She never said, I’m sorry for your loss. None of that. She had a condescending tone that I don’t like. When you’re being professional, you don’t talk to people like they are, but they feel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And Joey know that there’s usually like this ramp up that happens to a recall campaign that really builds from stories or cases that people end up really pointing to as examples and rationale for recalling someone in office. Right. What are some of the important cases in Alameda County that are really fueling this effort to recall Pamela Price?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Just to take a step back from this, the opponents of progressive policies have very strong emotional arguments they can make by pointing to these cases where some tragedy happened and there wasn’t a as harsh a sentence as maybe a victim would prefer. And so we’re seeing this argument being made in the case of Jasper Wu, a toddler who was shot and killed in 2021 while in a car with his mother heading home to Fremont from San Francisco. Jasper was sadly caught up in gunshots between adult men who were shooting at one another. There are two men who are defendants in the in the case of the death of young Jasper, Wu, Ivory Bivins and Trevor GREENE were both 24 and 22, respectively. And essentially, Pamela Price has decided not to pursue what we call special circumstances enhancements with those two men.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Special circumstances are basically an add on charge that a d.a. Can apply that can lead to much harsher punishments for people accused of murder. That could mean life in prison without parole or even the death penalty for the accused. Pamela Price has vowed to stop pursuing special circumstances, citing numbers that show that black defendants are disproportionately more likely to face these charges. But some residents strongly oppose this idea, especially when it comes to high profile crimes where people really want to see justice come down hard, like in the case of Jasper Woo’s death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>You know, it touches on a few different things in the community, right? Jasper Woo is an Asian child, so it touches on the hearts of those who have been really affected by the anti-Asian hate we’ve seen since the rise of the pandemic. It also touches on this fear of rising crime and this idea of lawlessness. It’s kind of a nexus case of all of these fears that are really coming together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>But to be clear and just to clarify, these two men are still facing charges, just not these sort of special circumstances enhancement that people, it sounds like, are really want to see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Yeah, if convicted, Bivins is facing 265 years to life in prison. Green faces 175 years to life in prison. These men are facing incredibly steep charges for what they did. The only difference here is there is some possibility of parole.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, I want to talk, Joe, more about this feeling that crime is up and these fears around crime, because it does sound like the tension here is between, you know, these progressive policies that maybe take a longer to really see the fruits of, whereas, you know, there’s this feeling that people want something to be done about crime right now. And they know that especially in Oakland, there’s really this feeling of rise in crime is particularly relevant. What does the data actually show, though?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Alameda County has more than a dozen cities in it. Oakland is not the only one, but perhaps the city that will become the crux of most discussions will be Oakland. Oakland’s crime numbers have fluctuated. In June, a number of crimes across the city were down. Number of types of crimes, including assaults, were down. The crime rate itself was down in total compared to the same time last year. But as we see happen in summer months, this is a normal occurrence. In July, those numbers tracked up. Crime was up compared to the same time last year. You could have different arguments about why it’s up at the same time last year, higher than last year, but it is up in July. But as we’ve seen, they’ve gone up and down and down and up. And historically, at least compared to decades ago, crime is low. But what we hear and what we hear across the state and the country is this fear of crime. And a lot of it has been stoked by these videos. We see viral videos of crime. And people are afraid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Coming up, Pamela Price’s thoughts on the recall and what happens from here. How has Pamela Price responded to this effort to recall her, Joe?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Pamela Price had some real harsh words for those who are behind this effort.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>These are election deniers. They lost the election. So they want to have a do over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Subverting democracy that they’re comparable to the people in the January six insurrection, that they’re Republicans, that they’re out-of-towners. And she was she didn’t hold back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>Their candidate lost. And so they want to have a second bite at the apple. And that’s not that’s undemocratic. That’s not how democracy works. People get to vote and your vote matters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>The opponents of a power price say that crime is worse and people are afraid. And that’s bad. While prices fault for her progressive policies. And Pamela Price will argue a D.A. is one actor among many in the criminal justice system, including the police offenders, the role of education, the county and economic health and all of those have a place in the crime rate. And the D.A. does not really have a strong influence on crime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>A D.A. has no effect whatsoever on crime rates. That is a failed measure. And it’s been proven over and over across the country. That’s not how you measure the performance of your district attorney. When we invest in community support for people with mental illness, when we invest in services and opportunities for young people, when we invest in our community, that’s when we’ll see crime go down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>I will say I have spoken to some academics about this. They also argue that really what you need is a preponderance of data about recidivism and diversion rates. The progressives have the tough argument here because their argument is one that is measured in time, whereas people who have a more kind of law and order view are measuring it by individual trauma and individual pain, which is much easier to show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So if Pamela Price thinks crime rates are a bad way of measuring the success of a day, how does she measure success? Like what accomplishments does she really point to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>I think what she really points to is, is how she is trying to wrap around services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>We have established a civil rights bureau. We’ve created a community support bureau. We have worked on the victim witness advocates making sure that we’re expanding those services, as well as expanding the outreach of the collaborative course, the mental health courts, and dealing with mental health diversion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>She tells me we helping getting multilingual support for victims of crime. We’re updating collaborative courts so that we can have more diversions for people who use drugs and have other low level offenses, aren’t going to jail, but are instead are getting help that they need. There’s mental health courts where she’s hired some of the first mental health clinicians. You know, the mental health courts had attorneys, but no mental health experts. So she hired the.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>Obviously our Public Accountability Unit, which is part of the Civil Rights Bureau, initially looked at eight cases of police misconduct and we’re holding police accountable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>But one of the other major tenets of helping to stem the cycle of crime from her point of view, is to reduce sentencing with the hope that reducing sentencing can help communities heal, can help individuals get out of the cycle of crime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>And the mandate is the same. We cannot continue to over incarcerate and over criminalize black and brown people in this community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>She’s only been in office six months before this recall campaign started. And I think she’s going to try to argue that, hey, give me time to to do what you elected me to do. I said all this on the campaign trail. I said I was going to lessen the sentences. I said I was going to do special circumstances. I said I was going to charge minors as minors and not as adults. These are the reasons that you voted for me. She will say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>Alameda County is a very special place that I’ve been embraced by for 40 years, and I was elected to do the job and I’m going to continue to do the job that I was elected to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’re still early on, it sounds like. But I mean, you’ve already been talking about this sort of comparison that a lot of people are making between what happened in San Francisco and the recall of former district attorney Jason Boudin. But is that a fair comparison here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>I think the lessons that we can take from Chase’s recall are select ones. But you have to remember the recall. Chase Aberdeen was in San Francisco, which is both one city and one county in Alameda County. There’s more than a dozen cities. So that’s a lot of places to gather signatures. There’s a lot of ground to have to cover. That’s going to cost some money. And so what will determine the viability of this recall effort will be the amount of money that we see it raising in the near future. Another big difference that folks pointed out to me is that the demographics of Alameda County are a lot different. San Francisco has become wealthier. San Francisco has become whiter. San Francisco has a very small black population. And now I’m not going to argue that the black population in Alameda County is monolithic. There are certainly people across the political spectrum there. But because there is a higher black population in Alameda County, there are more folks who have a more direct experience with law enforcement. More progressive folks who have argued and will argue that they want criminal justice reform. And that’s something that might have a stronger pull in Alameda County than we saw on San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, what are you going to be watching, Joe, in the next couple of months?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>I’m going to be watching to see how Pambo prizes arguments evolve around keeping herself in office. I’m definitely interested to see if she continues on the same tack and the same set of arguments the Chaser routine used before he was ousted. I’m curious to see how much money the recall proponents raise and if they’re able to signature gather to the level that they want. I’m interested to see some of the cases that Pamela Price tries and see if they continue to garner the same attention as Jasper Wu’s case. There was just a community meeting just the night before. We’re recording this in the Oakland Hills, where a lot of folks in those wealthier areas were quite angry, detailing car break ins and such. And Pamela Price had to answer to a lot of angry folks who thought that her policies might be making them less safe. And she argued directly to them that she didn’t think that her policies add anything to do with the level of crime, that they should direct their ire to the police.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Joe, I’m sure I’ll be talking with you about all of this again sometime soon. But thanks so much for breaking this down. I appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Absolutely. Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Now that the necessary papers have been filed, the campaign will have to gather more than 93,000 signatures to get this question of whether to recall Pamela Price on the ballot. And it’s going to take a lot of cash to get that task done. Upwards of $1,000,000, according to one estimate. That was Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez, a politics and government reporter for KQED. This 40-minute conversation with Joe was cut down and edited by producer Maria Esquinca. Alan Montecillo is our senior editor. He scored this episode and added all the tape. And I am Ericka Cruz Guevara. Welcome back to The Bay. It’s so good to be back in your feed. Hope you can wrap us back into your daily routine here. And we appreciate you for listening and for rocking with us and for sticking around. We’ll talk to you next time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q7BNr6kOVbzQpP46ZuANDKQEgjwIpge7/view?usp=drive_link\">Read a transcript of this episode. \u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you watch national TV news — or eavesdrop at your local coffee shop — you may have heard something like this: San Francisco’s offices are lying vacant, homelessness is rampant, and the city is floundering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Judith Gottlieb, a retired nurse in Oakland, has been hearing some of those stories. And the idea of people sleeping on the street breaks her heart. One day, she got an idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I heard about all these empty office buildings in San Francisco, and I was thinking, couldn’t we just move [people] in there really quickly?” Gottlieb asked Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Office vacancy is hovering around 30% in downtown San Francisco, and recently there’s been a lot of talk about converting all these empty offices to living space as a way to create much-needed housing and revive downtown at the same time. [baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The unhoused need dignity. They need a roof over their head,” said Gottlieb. “Anything we can do is better than just waiting around.”\u003cbr>\nBay Curious looked into the economics of converting office space to housing in the city, and explored whether this is a good option for getting people off the streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How difficult is conversion?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Offices have been converted to housing before in San Francisco, but only a handful of times, according to the San Francisco Planning Commission. But as far as the agency knows, it hasn’t been done for people experiencing homelessness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A prime example of a market-rate conversion is 100 Van Ness, a 28-story, glass-covered tower just steps from Market Street and City Hall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This tower first belonged to the California State Automobile Association and was built in the 1970s. Back then, it was a beige tower of concrete with small rectangular windows. Now its exterior is almost all glass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11955562\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-scaled.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11955562 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-scaled.jpeg\" alt=\"A white man wearing a suit smiles at the camera in the foreground. He's standing on the rooftop of a skyscraper. Behind him is a view of the San Francisco city skyline.\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1920\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-scaled.jpeg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-800x600.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-1020x765.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-160x120.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-1536x1152.jpeg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-2048x1536.jpeg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-1920x1440.jpeg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Strachan Forgan stands on the rooftop of 100 Van Ness. \u003ccite>(Pauline Bartolone/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We essentially took off the entire façade of the building and replaced it with this floor-to-ceiling glass,” said Strachan Forgan, a principal at SCB, the architectural firm that helped create the residential units in 2015.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During a recent tour of 100 Van Ness, Forgan explained the complete transformation of the interior of the building. The once sprawling open floors of office space have been carved up into hundreds of luxury apartments. Only four of the original eight elevators remain, because residential settings have less need for elevators, according to Forgan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The converted apartments — ranging from $3,159 for a tiny studio to more than $6,000 for a roomy two-bedroom — are not without design quirks. Some are attractive, others less so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Things residents may enjoy are the elevated ceilings — slightly higher than in your standard apartment. Developers also removed the heating and cooling machinery, which is typically kept on office building roofs, to make open leisure space instead, complete with chairs and 360-degree views of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It has pretty spectacular views in every direction,” said Forgan, with a backdrop of the Marin Headlands, and the many hills of San Francisco, behind him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the downside, some apartments at Van Ness have fewer surface area for windows, so bedrooms use “borrowed light” from living spaces. Because the apartments are carved out of a vast open office floor, many of the apartments are long and deep, stretching from the window to the center elevators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a result, many apartments at 100 Van Ness have long, tunnel-like hallways with windows at the end. In one of the building’s one-bedroom units, a windowless bedroom in the middle of the layout has a semi-transparent wall to let in light from the living room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11954821\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11954821 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A large empty room with a glass sliding door and glass panels in one wall.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A sliding door and light panels allow light through to an interior bedroom in a converted apartment at 100 Van Ness in San Francisco on June 30, 2023. Built in 1974, the building was converted from office space to residential apartment units in 2012. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>When 100 Van Ness first opened to residents, units with windowless bedrooms were initially offered with significant discounts, but developers soon found that wasn’t necessary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Actually, the residents really like it because it’s very quiet,” said Forgan. “You’re away from the hustle and bustle. It can be a little darker, so if you’re sleeping there, it’s fine.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>It comes down to money\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Forgan’s firm wants to stay in this business of designing conversions of offices to housing. They see the value to downtown San Francisco, and the environment. Reusing an existing building has a smaller carbon footprint than knocking it down and starting from scratch.\u003cbr>\nSo why is this project one of only a handful of office-to-residential conversions in San Francisco?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Perhaps not surprisingly, it has largely to do with the high cost of housing development.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a very basic level, there’s the cost of new plumbing and electrical. You need pipes for new kitchens and bathrooms. Then, a lot of these buildings need a seismic upgrade. Forgan says the kind of housing that would recoup costs of a conversion would be at the higher end of the market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’ve got to buy the building and do everything to convert it. And by the time you add up those costs, the only thing that pencils [out] is more of a luxury product, especially with a building like this that has great views and a good location,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11954820\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11954820 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"People pass a sign on a city sidewalk advertising luxury apartments.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People pass by the entrance to the 100 Van Ness building in San Francisco on June 30, 2023. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Housing developers like the Emerald Fund, which backed 100 Van Ness, say they’re interested in doing more office-to-housing conversions. The raw construction costs of converting offices could actually be done more cheaply than building a brand-new apartment tower, says Marc Babsin, president of the fund.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Babsin says they’ve looked at four office buildings to convert recently, but so far, no new project has made sense cost-wise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We continue to look. We think this is a great idea from a public policy perspective. We do need to save our downtowns and this is a great way to do that, to bring people onto the street,” said Babsin. “It’s a great way to produce housing that is currently not being produced.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Public policy experts at the San Francisco Bay Area Planning and Urban Research Association (SPUR) agree that the hefty costs of development can make such a project a nonstarter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sujata Srivastava, San Francisco director at SPUR, explained a few of the financial burdens that give housing developers pause:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>City fees that support public projects like child care programs and transportation, which can add up to millions of dollars.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Transfer and property taxes.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Reduced revenue potential, because San Francisco requires a certain number of units be affordable to lower-income tenants.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Construction costs, which are very expensive right now.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>“It doesn’t really make any financial sense to do conversions under the current costs that we have in San Francisco,” said Srivastava, adding that housing development is even less likely because rents are also down since before the pandemic. “The math just doesn’t really work.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A recent SPUR report suggests city lawmakers need to make major changes if they want to jump-start these conversions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco politicians have already made some changes, and are working on more. The Mayor’s Office and supervisors have relaxed rules about open space, sunlight and apartment sizes for some conversions. Elected city officials have proposed reducing affordable housing requirements and impact fees on all new housing developments, but not as low as developers want.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s all part of the city’s effort to jump-start more activity downtown and build more housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A solution for homelessness?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Since the pandemic emptied out office space in the Financial District, downtown streets look vacant; pedestrians experience windy sidewalks, empty restaurants and sparse foot traffic. Graham Luth was sitting on the sidewalk on 2nd Street near Montgomery Street one recent Friday morning, trying to get money to go to Colorado.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I got evicted, sort of,” said Luth about being temporarily without a home. “I got a job offer but I’m short on bus money.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When asked about this idea of sheltering people in empty office space downtown, Luth looked up at the tall buildings around him, and said, if no one’s using them, why not?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s a fantastic idea because there is a lot of space that is just … sitting there,” said Luth. “So I guess just being able to figure out who owns the spaces and if … they’re not gaining or losing, that the space can be used for a matter that would help support the whole community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, the city of San Francisco may have already found a different way to shelter people without housing: buying underused hotels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the things that happened during the pandemic that … really kind of changed the landscape around solving homelessness was this idea of using hotels,” said Jennifer Friedenbach, executive director of the Coalition on Homelessness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the pandemic, San Francisco and their partner organizations bought eight hotels and apartment buildings to provide permanent supportive housing to people who were formerly on the streets. It has created almost 1,000 new housing units for people without shelter. The city is in the process of acquiring two more buildings. [emailsignup newslettername=\"baycurious\" align=\"right\"]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a result of San Francisco’s efforts, the unsheltered unhoused population has gone down 15% since 2020. That’s as homelessness in general has gone up around the state, according to the Public Policy Institute of California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Folks are getting housed,” said Friedenbach. “That has been really incredible.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco used state COVID-19 money through Project Homekey and a local tax on large corporations, known to San Francisco voters as Proposition C, to purchase and operate the buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We had unprecedented success during COVID,” said Shireen McSpadden, executive director of San Francisco’s Department of Homelessness and Supportive Housing, about their recent efforts to house unsheltered people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The success is due to the enormous resources that were made available to them through Project Homekey and local tax dollars, said McSpadden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It really showed what can happen when you can marshal resources,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Friedenbach says making housing out of hotel rooms is easier and cheaper because it already has living space infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of the tourist hotels have larger rooms. You can turn them into studio apartments and have small kitchens,” Friedenbach said. “There’s all these design things you can do that are really cool and you’ve already got the pipes, the electricity, the water.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With nationally owned hotels like the Hilton and Parc 55 abandoning their Union Square buildings, and the city’s recent track record of housing people in hotels, repurposing these newly abandoned buildings doesn’t seem like a wild idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for Judith Gottlieb’s question, it seems that vacant hotels may be a better option for housing unsheltered people. But those vacant offices in the city’s core could one day be high-end housing, especially if lawmakers take more steps to make conversions cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q7BNr6kOVbzQpP46ZuANDKQEgjwIpge7/view?usp=drive_link\">Read a transcript of this episode. \u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you watch national TV news — or eavesdrop at your local coffee shop — you may have heard something like this: San Francisco’s offices are lying vacant, homelessness is rampant, and the city is floundering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Judith Gottlieb, a retired nurse in Oakland, has been hearing some of those stories. And the idea of people sleeping on the street breaks her heart. One day, she got an idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I heard about all these empty office buildings in San Francisco, and I was thinking, couldn’t we just move [people] in there really quickly?” Gottlieb asked Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Office vacancy is hovering around 30% in downtown San Francisco, and recently there’s been a lot of talk about converting all these empty offices to living space as a way to create much-needed housing and revive downtown at the same time. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The unhoused need dignity. They need a roof over their head,” said Gottlieb. “Anything we can do is better than just waiting around.”\u003cbr>\nBay Curious looked into the economics of converting office space to housing in the city, and explored whether this is a good option for getting people off the streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How difficult is conversion?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Offices have been converted to housing before in San Francisco, but only a handful of times, according to the San Francisco Planning Commission. But as far as the agency knows, it hasn’t been done for people experiencing homelessness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A prime example of a market-rate conversion is 100 Van Ness, a 28-story, glass-covered tower just steps from Market Street and City Hall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This tower first belonged to the California State Automobile Association and was built in the 1970s. Back then, it was a beige tower of concrete with small rectangular windows. Now its exterior is almost all glass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11955562\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-scaled.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11955562 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-scaled.jpeg\" alt=\"A white man wearing a suit smiles at the camera in the foreground. He's standing on the rooftop of a skyscraper. Behind him is a view of the San Francisco city skyline.\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1920\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-scaled.jpeg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-800x600.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-1020x765.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-160x120.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-1536x1152.jpeg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-2048x1536.jpeg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-1920x1440.jpeg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Strachan Forgan stands on the rooftop of 100 Van Ness. \u003ccite>(Pauline Bartolone/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We essentially took off the entire façade of the building and replaced it with this floor-to-ceiling glass,” said Strachan Forgan, a principal at SCB, the architectural firm that helped create the residential units in 2015.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During a recent tour of 100 Van Ness, Forgan explained the complete transformation of the interior of the building. The once sprawling open floors of office space have been carved up into hundreds of luxury apartments. Only four of the original eight elevators remain, because residential settings have less need for elevators, according to Forgan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The converted apartments — ranging from $3,159 for a tiny studio to more than $6,000 for a roomy two-bedroom — are not without design quirks. Some are attractive, others less so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Things residents may enjoy are the elevated ceilings — slightly higher than in your standard apartment. Developers also removed the heating and cooling machinery, which is typically kept on office building roofs, to make open leisure space instead, complete with chairs and 360-degree views of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It has pretty spectacular views in every direction,” said Forgan, with a backdrop of the Marin Headlands, and the many hills of San Francisco, behind him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the downside, some apartments at Van Ness have fewer surface area for windows, so bedrooms use “borrowed light” from living spaces. Because the apartments are carved out of a vast open office floor, many of the apartments are long and deep, stretching from the window to the center elevators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a result, many apartments at 100 Van Ness have long, tunnel-like hallways with windows at the end. In one of the building’s one-bedroom units, a windowless bedroom in the middle of the layout has a semi-transparent wall to let in light from the living room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11954821\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11954821 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A large empty room with a glass sliding door and glass panels in one wall.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A sliding door and light panels allow light through to an interior bedroom in a converted apartment at 100 Van Ness in San Francisco on June 30, 2023. Built in 1974, the building was converted from office space to residential apartment units in 2012. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>When 100 Van Ness first opened to residents, units with windowless bedrooms were initially offered with significant discounts, but developers soon found that wasn’t necessary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Actually, the residents really like it because it’s very quiet,” said Forgan. “You’re away from the hustle and bustle. It can be a little darker, so if you’re sleeping there, it’s fine.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>It comes down to money\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Forgan’s firm wants to stay in this business of designing conversions of offices to housing. They see the value to downtown San Francisco, and the environment. Reusing an existing building has a smaller carbon footprint than knocking it down and starting from scratch.\u003cbr>\nSo why is this project one of only a handful of office-to-residential conversions in San Francisco?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Perhaps not surprisingly, it has largely to do with the high cost of housing development.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a very basic level, there’s the cost of new plumbing and electrical. You need pipes for new kitchens and bathrooms. Then, a lot of these buildings need a seismic upgrade. Forgan says the kind of housing that would recoup costs of a conversion would be at the higher end of the market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’ve got to buy the building and do everything to convert it. And by the time you add up those costs, the only thing that pencils [out] is more of a luxury product, especially with a building like this that has great views and a good location,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11954820\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11954820 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"People pass a sign on a city sidewalk advertising luxury apartments.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People pass by the entrance to the 100 Van Ness building in San Francisco on June 30, 2023. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Housing developers like the Emerald Fund, which backed 100 Van Ness, say they’re interested in doing more office-to-housing conversions. The raw construction costs of converting offices could actually be done more cheaply than building a brand-new apartment tower, says Marc Babsin, president of the fund.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Babsin says they’ve looked at four office buildings to convert recently, but so far, no new project has made sense cost-wise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We continue to look. We think this is a great idea from a public policy perspective. We do need to save our downtowns and this is a great way to do that, to bring people onto the street,” said Babsin. “It’s a great way to produce housing that is currently not being produced.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Public policy experts at the San Francisco Bay Area Planning and Urban Research Association (SPUR) agree that the hefty costs of development can make such a project a nonstarter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sujata Srivastava, San Francisco director at SPUR, explained a few of the financial burdens that give housing developers pause:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>City fees that support public projects like child care programs and transportation, which can add up to millions of dollars.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Transfer and property taxes.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Reduced revenue potential, because San Francisco requires a certain number of units be affordable to lower-income tenants.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Construction costs, which are very expensive right now.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>“It doesn’t really make any financial sense to do conversions under the current costs that we have in San Francisco,” said Srivastava, adding that housing development is even less likely because rents are also down since before the pandemic. “The math just doesn’t really work.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A recent SPUR report suggests city lawmakers need to make major changes if they want to jump-start these conversions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco politicians have already made some changes, and are working on more. The Mayor’s Office and supervisors have relaxed rules about open space, sunlight and apartment sizes for some conversions. Elected city officials have proposed reducing affordable housing requirements and impact fees on all new housing developments, but not as low as developers want.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s all part of the city’s effort to jump-start more activity downtown and build more housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A solution for homelessness?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Since the pandemic emptied out office space in the Financial District, downtown streets look vacant; pedestrians experience windy sidewalks, empty restaurants and sparse foot traffic. Graham Luth was sitting on the sidewalk on 2nd Street near Montgomery Street one recent Friday morning, trying to get money to go to Colorado.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I got evicted, sort of,” said Luth about being temporarily without a home. “I got a job offer but I’m short on bus money.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When asked about this idea of sheltering people in empty office space downtown, Luth looked up at the tall buildings around him, and said, if no one’s using them, why not?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s a fantastic idea because there is a lot of space that is just … sitting there,” said Luth. “So I guess just being able to figure out who owns the spaces and if … they’re not gaining or losing, that the space can be used for a matter that would help support the whole community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, the city of San Francisco may have already found a different way to shelter people without housing: buying underused hotels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the things that happened during the pandemic that … really kind of changed the landscape around solving homelessness was this idea of using hotels,” said Jennifer Friedenbach, executive director of the Coalition on Homelessness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the pandemic, San Francisco and their partner organizations bought eight hotels and apartment buildings to provide permanent supportive housing to people who were formerly on the streets. It has created almost 1,000 new housing units for people without shelter. The city is in the process of acquiring two more buildings. \u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a result of San Francisco’s efforts, the unsheltered unhoused population has gone down 15% since 2020. That’s as homelessness in general has gone up around the state, according to the Public Policy Institute of California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Folks are getting housed,” said Friedenbach. “That has been really incredible.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco used state COVID-19 money through Project Homekey and a local tax on large corporations, known to San Francisco voters as Proposition C, to purchase and operate the buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We had unprecedented success during COVID,” said Shireen McSpadden, executive director of San Francisco’s Department of Homelessness and Supportive Housing, about their recent efforts to house unsheltered people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The success is due to the enormous resources that were made available to them through Project Homekey and local tax dollars, said McSpadden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It really showed what can happen when you can marshal resources,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Friedenbach says making housing out of hotel rooms is easier and cheaper because it already has living space infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of the tourist hotels have larger rooms. You can turn them into studio apartments and have small kitchens,” Friedenbach said. “There’s all these design things you can do that are really cool and you’ve already got the pipes, the electricity, the water.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With nationally owned hotels like the Hilton and Parc 55 abandoning their Union Square buildings, and the city’s recent track record of housing people in hotels, repurposing these newly abandoned buildings doesn’t seem like a wild idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for Judith Gottlieb’s question, it seems that vacant hotels may be a better option for housing unsheltered people. But those vacant offices in the city’s core could one day be high-end housing, especially if lawmakers take more steps to make conversions cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Breaking news from the Bay Team: we are taking our annual break from making new episodes for the month of July. We’re using this time to reset, rest, do some team bonding, and brainstorm what we want to make for you. We will be back with new episodes starting Wednesday, August 2.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can still reach us on Twitter \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/TheBayKQED\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">@TheBayKQED\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> or via e-mail \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">thebay@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. We always love hearing from you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC4047050104&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareportmagazine",
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"order": 10
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM3NjkwNjk1OTAz",
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},
"city-arts": {
"id": "city-arts",
"title": "City Arts & Lectures",
"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/cityartsandlecture-300x300.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.cityarts.net/",
"airtime": "SUN 1pm-2pm, TUE 10pm, WED 1am",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
"subscribe": {
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"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
}
},
"closealltabs": {
"id": "closealltabs",
"title": "Close All Tabs",
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"info": "Close All Tabs breaks down how digital culture shapes our world through thoughtful insights and irreverent humor.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/closealltabs",
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"order": 1
},
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"id": "code-switch-life-kit",
"title": "Code Switch / Life Kit",
"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"meta": {
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnByLm9yZy9yc3MvcG9kY2FzdC5waHA_aWQ9NTEwMzEy",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
"airtime": "THU 10pm, FRI 1am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"meta": {
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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},
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"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"id": "freakonomics-radio",
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"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/freakonomicsRadio.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/4s8b",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
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},
"fresh-air": {
"id": "fresh-air",
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"info": "Hosted by Terry Gross, \u003cem>Fresh Air from WHYY\u003c/em> is the Peabody Award-winning weekday magazine of contemporary arts and issues. One of public radio's most popular programs, Fresh Air features intimate conversations with today's biggest luminaries.",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510051/podcast.xml"
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},
"hidden-brain": {
"id": "hidden-brain",
"title": "Hidden Brain",
"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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},
"how-i-built-this": {
"id": "how-i-built-this",
"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/howIBuiltThis.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this",
"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/3zxy",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510313/podcast.xml"
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},
"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
"meta": {
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"order": 15
},
"link": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/2p3Fifq96nw9BPcmFdIq0o?si=39209f7b25774f38",
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"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC2275451163"
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/id1492194549",
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}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
"meta": {
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},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
}
},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "http://mastersofscale.app.link/",
"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/stories-teachers-share",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "On Our Watch from NPR and KQED",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1567098962",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510360/podcast.xml"
}
},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/otm",
"meta": {
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"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
"title": "PBS NewsHour",
"info": "Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "pbs"
},
"link": "/radio/program/pbs-newshour",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/",
"rss": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/feeds/rss/podcasts/show"
}
},
"perspectives": {
"id": "perspectives",
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