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"slug": "college-bound-californians-prepare-to-encounter-abortion-bans",
"title": "College-Bound Californians Prepare For Abortion Bans Out of State",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’laysia Vital is about to leave Oakland to start college in Texas, where she’s excited to attend a historically Black university. But Texas is also one of more than a dozen states that has banned abortion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KQED’s April Dembosky takes us inside a health clinic at Oakland Technical High School, where staff are helping college-bound students prepare for the barriers to reproductive health that await them in other states.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC3124767673&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1983772/college-bound-californians-prepare-for-rocky-reproductive-health-landscape-away-from-home\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">College-Bound Californians Navigate Abortion Bans Away From Home\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara, and welcome to The Bay. Local News to Keep You Rooted. Okay, So if you’ve lived in California your whole life, you’re probably used to having a lot of rights when it comes to reproductive health. So moving to another state can be a shock, especially if you’re an incoming college student, especially if it’s to one of the dozen or so states that have banned abortion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>They’re very focused on what they want to study and the environment they want to study in. And reproductive health care is not always the first thing they’re thinking of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re going inside a health clinic at Oakland Technical High School, and we’re going to meet a student preparing to navigate abortion bans away from home. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>I met I’laysia Vital in June, right after she graduated from Oakland Technical High School.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>April Dembosky is a health correspondent for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>She had taken classes in computer science there. Then she switched over to health, became very interested in that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>I really like school. I like learning. I feel like my favorite hobby to do is learning something new and especially learning about the body. So I feel like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>She wants to study kinesiology in college. She’s really into sports and wants to become an athletic trainer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>I plan on starting to like go from high school level sports and then doing like the high school and like the private schools, then working my way up to like minor league. And then hopefully in the future I would be working for the big like NFL. That’s where I really want to go. Is the NFL all the way to the tippy top within like, like ten years?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>When she was looking at colleges, what what was she looking for?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>Well, last fall, her school organized a tour of historically black colleges and universities in the South. And she loved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>It. I’ve always wanted to go to a colleges HBCU. I feel like it’s really just motivation and stuff to go see, like all black people thriving there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>So when she visited TSU, in particular at Texas Southern University, she really fell in love with it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>Toward Grambling I toward Southern Eye, toward Dillard. And I feel like TCU really spoke out because I liked how modern it was was a really big school. I like Houston just period I just like the city. So I feel like that was connected to me more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>Plus, her grandparents live in Texas and she loved the idea of living near them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>I wanted to go back there and like meet all my cousins and even see my grandma, my grandpa all the time because I’m like really close with them, but they live really far.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>So she applied to TSU and she got accepted and she’s about to move there this month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>It’s like I’m excited for like my first day, really, and me moving all the way and then I get to decorate my dorm and decorate my stuff. So yeah, I’m excited about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah. I mean, I feel like when you’re thinking about going to college, you are thinking about those practical things, like, do I have family nearby if I’m going to move far away or can I afford this? What major do I want to I see myself here. But when did I Leisa first start to realize that moving from California to Texas would mean going somewhere with actually fewer reproductive rights?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>Last summer, the Supreme Court overturned Roe v Wade, and that got rid of the constitutional right to abortion that had been in place for 50 years. It left the decision to states. And after that happened, Ilesha started hearing about protests either here in the Bay Area locally or on social media.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>And I’ve seen people going to like the Planned Parenthood or to the clinics and being shut out or being like there’s protesters in front.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Protester \u003c/strong>Of and anybody that tells you your idea to have an abortion. It’s a stand against God.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>And they’re honking or like, pushing stuff like pushing people. And there was like, fights and stuff in the streets. I feel like it really brought to my attention that that was happening in a lot of states, like in the South. And that’s where I want to go anyway. So I think I kind of like did more research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>A lot of us when we are looking for college, sometimes we’re looking for something really different from what we’ve known. I think I leisure was really attracted to those things and then didn’t realize that she was going to have to make some trade offs. Texas is one of the first states to ban abortion after the Supreme Court decision. There are more than a dozen states that ban the procedure now and more that restrict access. And so that’s what got Ilesha thinking. Maybe I need to prepare for this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>Even like I said, I’ll take type before. When I’ve seen that grown ticked up. I feel like it really like show like it was a reality check that I really need to like get on top of it before I go because I know I’m going there first and I already have a lot of resources here in my high school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>So she went to the clinic at her school for something they’re doing there this year called the senior sendoff appointment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>When I’laysia and other Oakland Tech students need medical help, they often go to a place called the Technique Clinic. It’s this small purple building right on campus run by a nonprofit called La Clinica de La Raza. Students can go to the clinic between classes for everything from AI appointments to STD tests, and they don’t have to tell their parents or use their insurance plan either. There are about 300 school based clinics like this one all over the state. And April was able to shadow the staff there for a day to see how they helped the students. Can you introduce me to Aaron Cramer and tell me a little bit about what she does?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>Arin Kramer is a nurse practitioner at the tech clinic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>And I’ve been working in adolescent medicine and school based health for about 15 years. And at the clinic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>You know, when she is doing her job, she’s not just thinking about the medical care she gives or solving the health mysteries that are in front of her. But she’s thinking really holistically about her patients.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>These are kids that are like on the precipice of the rest of like of a whole new world. They’re about to become adults. They’re learning how they’re learning about their own bodies. They want to be autonomous. They want to be empowered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>I followed her around for a day and, you know, a couple of patients that she was supposed to see that day canceled in the morning. And so she called them up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>This is Arin, the nurse practitioner from the tech clinic. Just came in your call this morning. Sorry to call you so early.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>And it turns out the student really did want to come in for her appointment, that she just couldn’t get a ride. And then she sends an Uber to pick the student up and bring her to the clinic if you want.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>The other option is we do have a service that like an Uber service that can help you get to clinic if they have insurance. \u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>So you can see all of these ways in which Nurse Kramer is trying to meet students where they’re at.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>All right, All right. Talk soon. Bye bye.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>But it seems pretty common for late people to canceled. But then does the follow up actually kind of…is that a helpful nudge?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, I mean it sounds like Arin has a pretty close eye and ear towards like what students need. So I’m curious how she has started to sort of see the needs of her students shifting since the end of Roe v Wade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>They have become a lot more proactive. So if you remember Roe v Wade, the decision to overturn it was at the end of June last year. And so, you know, students that year had already graduated. Most had already been moving on. And then, of course, in the wake is when we saw states starting to pass their own state laws banning or restricting access to the procedure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>We’ve seen new changes in Georgia and other other states. So a lot of a lot of these things are just changing really dynamically.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>So this is really the first year that the nurses have really been incorporating this new legal landscape into the medical care that they provide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>I had a patient recently who moved to Texas and did still it felt really worried about her access to getting prescriptions for the patch. So she we were able to dispense a year’s supply of the patch and she brought that with her to Texas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I know I’laysia is one of these patients, someone who is feeling nervous about going to Texas and, you know, realizing sort of the roadblocks ahead in terms of reproductive health for her. I’m curious, April, if we have a sense of how common that is. This experience is like are there a lot of students going to conservative states for college and then sort of realizing that there will be these serious roadblocks when they get there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>The nurses and the staff at the clinic have seen enough students who are headed to southern states that they have set up this senior sendoff appointment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>A lot of the students, some of the students we talked to today really want to go to historically black colleges and universities and and have that incredible community experience. And to be in a state where they’re not supported with their reproductive health feels scary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>They formalized this appointment where they want to talk to patients and make sure that they’re aware of the legal landscapes that they’re moving into. So they are proactively reaching out to seniors who are graduating, finding out where they’re going to college, where you’re thinking of going to college, and then taking the appropriate steps from there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk more about these senior sendoff appointments at the Technic Clinic. I know Erin and I’laysia were actually kind enough to let you sit in on Iglesias appointment. What did they talk about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>They talked about life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>So yeah. And I recently got accepted into TSU in Texas. So, yeah, I’m glad we have this one because I’m going straight to Texas. You are? Yeah. I think we start August 27.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>I’laysia Vital had just had a birthday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>Me and my friends, we went to, like, party, like at Airbnb, and then we had, like, food there and they had a hot tub and, like, ping pong tables and stuff. So that’s all we did was. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>Who planned to that thing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>My mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>Oh, my God. You do have the best mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>She asked her about her general health.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>Um, sleeping okay at night?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>But then when it came time to talk about their birth control options, Nurse Kramer asked Alicia, So who are you talking to these days? And that is adolescent speak for who are you having sex with?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>All right. And tell me, who are you talking to these days?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>Uh, same person. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>Off and on forever and ever. Can you remind me his name?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>And Nurse Kramer knows that this is how teenagers talk to each other about this kind of thing. And so for her, it’s a way of building trust and meeting students where they’re at and hopefully having an open, honest conversation. And then they talked a lot about different birth control options.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>And tell me a little bit about what you’re thinking in terms of birth control.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>I was looking at the the multiple choices and I’ve seen the the parent guard, the IUD one. Yeah. And I was like talking about that. I think the other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>Kramer has a poster on the wall of the exam room that has, you know, little pictures or images of all the different birth control methods. And she would point to them and explain how each one worked. So Alecia was pretty clear that she didn’t want to rely on birth control pills or patches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>Because I’m very forgetful. Even if I set my alarm or write it down, it’s still slipped my mind. So I think that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>They talked about other long acting options. So they talked a lot about IUDs. These are tiny devices that get inserted into the uterus and they are very effective at preventing pregnancy. I. Liza wasn’t quite down with that. She didn’t quite like the sound of that. But she had had a hormonal implant before. And this is a tiny rod that gets inserted into the upper arm. And she was thinking about getting that again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>I think I want to go back to the implant, the next implant, because it’s more it fits in my age range, I think, and I feel like it’s not like like a drastic change, but I just feel like I’d rather have something like it’s permanent but might not all the way permanent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>She ultimately decided to go with the implant again, which is good for up to five years, that she would never have to think about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>And after you sign this than I might have, you just step out of the room for a second. We’ll set up the room, and then we’ll do it. Okay. 5 minutes. Okay. Other questions?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>No, I think you covered everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>Awesome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, April, how much can this clinic help students once they’ve actually left the state? Like, would Alysha, for example, be able to, like, call Erin up while she’s in Texas?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>I’laysia can certainly call Arin up and Arin is very proactive about explaining to students we’re still here. They’re allowed to see their patients up until they’re 21. So any time that I Leisa came back home to visit her parents, for example, if she was there for break or over the summer, she’s more than welcome to come in to the technical clinic and get all the range of services for free. Nurse Cramer can write prescriptions, and if I Leisa comes back and says, you know, I don’t really like the implant, I want something else. Aaron will work with her to come up with something else. What’s less clear is we’re in this very strange time right now with each state codifying different laws. People, as we now know, are not just going to stay in one place. And so how these laws interact with each other when people cross state borders. There’s just so many questions around that. So Nurse Cramer herself wasn’t totally clear on whether she would be allowed to say write a prescription for a birth control method for Aleisha to pick up in Texas. There are just different kinds of rules around health care providers and what they’re allowed to do for people in other states when it comes to abortion services, that’s also unclear. There’s lots of talk right now about someone who’s a resident of Texas coming to a place like California for abortion care. The state of Texas says they have the right to sue the doctor in California who provided care to the Texas resident. California says, no, we have laws that protect doctors. So I think some of these things are it’s going to take time to see how they’re all going to play out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>In the end, April, I mean, going to college is supposed to be a really exciting time. What is I Leisa looking forward to the most about leaving the nest and also going to her dream school Texas southern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Like a lot of college bound teenagers, she’s thinking a lot about how she’s going to decorate her dorm room. Her twin sister is coming with her. They plan to bunk together, so they’re working out what kind of color scheme they’re going to go with. But Alisha is also really excited about college things, being independent, you know, moving on her own steam, going to classes, being on her own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>It’s more adult than high school, like high schools like adult. But college is really, though, you’re not with your peers, especially if you like, leave and go to a different school, not in your hometown. So I’m really excited for the growing up part of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>April, thank you so much for sharing your reporting with us and joining us on the show. I appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>Happy to do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was April Dembosy, a health correspondent for KQED. This 30 minute conversation with April was cut down and edited by producer Maria Esquinca. Allen Montecillo is our senior editor. He scored this episode and added all the tape. If you liked this episode, consider sharing it with a friend. Word of mouth is one of the best ways to help our show. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara. Thank you for listening to the bay. Talk to you next time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\n",
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"headline": "College-Bound Californians Prepare For Abortion Bans Out of State",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’laysia Vital is about to leave Oakland to start college in Texas, where she’s excited to attend a historically Black university. But Texas is also one of more than a dozen states that has banned abortion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KQED’s April Dembosky takes us inside a health clinic at Oakland Technical High School, where staff are helping college-bound students prepare for the barriers to reproductive health that await them in other states.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC3124767673&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1983772/college-bound-californians-prepare-for-rocky-reproductive-health-landscape-away-from-home\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">College-Bound Californians Navigate Abortion Bans Away From Home\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara, and welcome to The Bay. Local News to Keep You Rooted. Okay, So if you’ve lived in California your whole life, you’re probably used to having a lot of rights when it comes to reproductive health. So moving to another state can be a shock, especially if you’re an incoming college student, especially if it’s to one of the dozen or so states that have banned abortion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>They’re very focused on what they want to study and the environment they want to study in. And reproductive health care is not always the first thing they’re thinking of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re going inside a health clinic at Oakland Technical High School, and we’re going to meet a student preparing to navigate abortion bans away from home. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>I met I’laysia Vital in June, right after she graduated from Oakland Technical High School.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>April Dembosky is a health correspondent for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>She had taken classes in computer science there. Then she switched over to health, became very interested in that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>I really like school. I like learning. I feel like my favorite hobby to do is learning something new and especially learning about the body. So I feel like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>She wants to study kinesiology in college. She’s really into sports and wants to become an athletic trainer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>I plan on starting to like go from high school level sports and then doing like the high school and like the private schools, then working my way up to like minor league. And then hopefully in the future I would be working for the big like NFL. That’s where I really want to go. Is the NFL all the way to the tippy top within like, like ten years?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>When she was looking at colleges, what what was she looking for?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>Well, last fall, her school organized a tour of historically black colleges and universities in the South. And she loved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>It. I’ve always wanted to go to a colleges HBCU. I feel like it’s really just motivation and stuff to go see, like all black people thriving there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>So when she visited TSU, in particular at Texas Southern University, she really fell in love with it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>Toward Grambling I toward Southern Eye, toward Dillard. And I feel like TCU really spoke out because I liked how modern it was was a really big school. I like Houston just period I just like the city. So I feel like that was connected to me more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>Plus, her grandparents live in Texas and she loved the idea of living near them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>I wanted to go back there and like meet all my cousins and even see my grandma, my grandpa all the time because I’m like really close with them, but they live really far.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>So she applied to TSU and she got accepted and she’s about to move there this month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>It’s like I’m excited for like my first day, really, and me moving all the way and then I get to decorate my dorm and decorate my stuff. So yeah, I’m excited about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah. I mean, I feel like when you’re thinking about going to college, you are thinking about those practical things, like, do I have family nearby if I’m going to move far away or can I afford this? What major do I want to I see myself here. But when did I Leisa first start to realize that moving from California to Texas would mean going somewhere with actually fewer reproductive rights?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>Last summer, the Supreme Court overturned Roe v Wade, and that got rid of the constitutional right to abortion that had been in place for 50 years. It left the decision to states. And after that happened, Ilesha started hearing about protests either here in the Bay Area locally or on social media.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>And I’ve seen people going to like the Planned Parenthood or to the clinics and being shut out or being like there’s protesters in front.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Protester \u003c/strong>Of and anybody that tells you your idea to have an abortion. It’s a stand against God.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>And they’re honking or like, pushing stuff like pushing people. And there was like, fights and stuff in the streets. I feel like it really brought to my attention that that was happening in a lot of states, like in the South. And that’s where I want to go anyway. So I think I kind of like did more research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>A lot of us when we are looking for college, sometimes we’re looking for something really different from what we’ve known. I think I leisure was really attracted to those things and then didn’t realize that she was going to have to make some trade offs. Texas is one of the first states to ban abortion after the Supreme Court decision. There are more than a dozen states that ban the procedure now and more that restrict access. And so that’s what got Ilesha thinking. Maybe I need to prepare for this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>Even like I said, I’ll take type before. When I’ve seen that grown ticked up. I feel like it really like show like it was a reality check that I really need to like get on top of it before I go because I know I’m going there first and I already have a lot of resources here in my high school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>So she went to the clinic at her school for something they’re doing there this year called the senior sendoff appointment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>When I’laysia and other Oakland Tech students need medical help, they often go to a place called the Technique Clinic. It’s this small purple building right on campus run by a nonprofit called La Clinica de La Raza. Students can go to the clinic between classes for everything from AI appointments to STD tests, and they don’t have to tell their parents or use their insurance plan either. There are about 300 school based clinics like this one all over the state. And April was able to shadow the staff there for a day to see how they helped the students. Can you introduce me to Aaron Cramer and tell me a little bit about what she does?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>Arin Kramer is a nurse practitioner at the tech clinic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>And I’ve been working in adolescent medicine and school based health for about 15 years. And at the clinic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>You know, when she is doing her job, she’s not just thinking about the medical care she gives or solving the health mysteries that are in front of her. But she’s thinking really holistically about her patients.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>These are kids that are like on the precipice of the rest of like of a whole new world. They’re about to become adults. They’re learning how they’re learning about their own bodies. They want to be autonomous. They want to be empowered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>I followed her around for a day and, you know, a couple of patients that she was supposed to see that day canceled in the morning. And so she called them up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>This is Arin, the nurse practitioner from the tech clinic. Just came in your call this morning. Sorry to call you so early.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>And it turns out the student really did want to come in for her appointment, that she just couldn’t get a ride. And then she sends an Uber to pick the student up and bring her to the clinic if you want.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>The other option is we do have a service that like an Uber service that can help you get to clinic if they have insurance. \u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>So you can see all of these ways in which Nurse Kramer is trying to meet students where they’re at.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>All right, All right. Talk soon. Bye bye.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>But it seems pretty common for late people to canceled. But then does the follow up actually kind of…is that a helpful nudge?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, I mean it sounds like Arin has a pretty close eye and ear towards like what students need. So I’m curious how she has started to sort of see the needs of her students shifting since the end of Roe v Wade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>They have become a lot more proactive. So if you remember Roe v Wade, the decision to overturn it was at the end of June last year. And so, you know, students that year had already graduated. Most had already been moving on. And then, of course, in the wake is when we saw states starting to pass their own state laws banning or restricting access to the procedure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>We’ve seen new changes in Georgia and other other states. So a lot of a lot of these things are just changing really dynamically.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>So this is really the first year that the nurses have really been incorporating this new legal landscape into the medical care that they provide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>I had a patient recently who moved to Texas and did still it felt really worried about her access to getting prescriptions for the patch. So she we were able to dispense a year’s supply of the patch and she brought that with her to Texas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I know I’laysia is one of these patients, someone who is feeling nervous about going to Texas and, you know, realizing sort of the roadblocks ahead in terms of reproductive health for her. I’m curious, April, if we have a sense of how common that is. This experience is like are there a lot of students going to conservative states for college and then sort of realizing that there will be these serious roadblocks when they get there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>The nurses and the staff at the clinic have seen enough students who are headed to southern states that they have set up this senior sendoff appointment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>A lot of the students, some of the students we talked to today really want to go to historically black colleges and universities and and have that incredible community experience. And to be in a state where they’re not supported with their reproductive health feels scary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>They formalized this appointment where they want to talk to patients and make sure that they’re aware of the legal landscapes that they’re moving into. So they are proactively reaching out to seniors who are graduating, finding out where they’re going to college, where you’re thinking of going to college, and then taking the appropriate steps from there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk more about these senior sendoff appointments at the Technic Clinic. I know Erin and I’laysia were actually kind enough to let you sit in on Iglesias appointment. What did they talk about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>They talked about life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>So yeah. And I recently got accepted into TSU in Texas. So, yeah, I’m glad we have this one because I’m going straight to Texas. You are? Yeah. I think we start August 27.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>I’laysia Vital had just had a birthday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>Me and my friends, we went to, like, party, like at Airbnb, and then we had, like, food there and they had a hot tub and, like, ping pong tables and stuff. So that’s all we did was. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>Who planned to that thing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>My mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>Oh, my God. You do have the best mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>She asked her about her general health.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>Um, sleeping okay at night?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>But then when it came time to talk about their birth control options, Nurse Kramer asked Alicia, So who are you talking to these days? And that is adolescent speak for who are you having sex with?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>All right. And tell me, who are you talking to these days?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>Uh, same person. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>Off and on forever and ever. Can you remind me his name?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>And Nurse Kramer knows that this is how teenagers talk to each other about this kind of thing. And so for her, it’s a way of building trust and meeting students where they’re at and hopefully having an open, honest conversation. And then they talked a lot about different birth control options.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>And tell me a little bit about what you’re thinking in terms of birth control.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>I was looking at the the multiple choices and I’ve seen the the parent guard, the IUD one. Yeah. And I was like talking about that. I think the other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>Kramer has a poster on the wall of the exam room that has, you know, little pictures or images of all the different birth control methods. And she would point to them and explain how each one worked. So Alecia was pretty clear that she didn’t want to rely on birth control pills or patches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>Because I’m very forgetful. Even if I set my alarm or write it down, it’s still slipped my mind. So I think that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>They talked about other long acting options. So they talked a lot about IUDs. These are tiny devices that get inserted into the uterus and they are very effective at preventing pregnancy. I. Liza wasn’t quite down with that. She didn’t quite like the sound of that. But she had had a hormonal implant before. And this is a tiny rod that gets inserted into the upper arm. And she was thinking about getting that again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>I think I want to go back to the implant, the next implant, because it’s more it fits in my age range, I think, and I feel like it’s not like like a drastic change, but I just feel like I’d rather have something like it’s permanent but might not all the way permanent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>She ultimately decided to go with the implant again, which is good for up to five years, that she would never have to think about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>And after you sign this than I might have, you just step out of the room for a second. We’ll set up the room, and then we’ll do it. Okay. 5 minutes. Okay. Other questions?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>No, I think you covered everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Arin Kramer: \u003c/strong>Awesome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, April, how much can this clinic help students once they’ve actually left the state? Like, would Alysha, for example, be able to, like, call Erin up while she’s in Texas?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>I’laysia can certainly call Arin up and Arin is very proactive about explaining to students we’re still here. They’re allowed to see their patients up until they’re 21. So any time that I Leisa came back home to visit her parents, for example, if she was there for break or over the summer, she’s more than welcome to come in to the technical clinic and get all the range of services for free. Nurse Cramer can write prescriptions, and if I Leisa comes back and says, you know, I don’t really like the implant, I want something else. Aaron will work with her to come up with something else. What’s less clear is we’re in this very strange time right now with each state codifying different laws. People, as we now know, are not just going to stay in one place. And so how these laws interact with each other when people cross state borders. There’s just so many questions around that. So Nurse Cramer herself wasn’t totally clear on whether she would be allowed to say write a prescription for a birth control method for Aleisha to pick up in Texas. There are just different kinds of rules around health care providers and what they’re allowed to do for people in other states when it comes to abortion services, that’s also unclear. There’s lots of talk right now about someone who’s a resident of Texas coming to a place like California for abortion care. The state of Texas says they have the right to sue the doctor in California who provided care to the Texas resident. California says, no, we have laws that protect doctors. So I think some of these things are it’s going to take time to see how they’re all going to play out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>In the end, April, I mean, going to college is supposed to be a really exciting time. What is I Leisa looking forward to the most about leaving the nest and also going to her dream school Texas southern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Like a lot of college bound teenagers, she’s thinking a lot about how she’s going to decorate her dorm room. Her twin sister is coming with her. They plan to bunk together, so they’re working out what kind of color scheme they’re going to go with. But Alisha is also really excited about college things, being independent, you know, moving on her own steam, going to classes, being on her own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>I’laysia Vital: \u003c/strong>It’s more adult than high school, like high schools like adult. But college is really, though, you’re not with your peers, especially if you like, leave and go to a different school, not in your hometown. So I’m really excited for the growing up part of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>April, thank you so much for sharing your reporting with us and joining us on the show. I appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>Happy to do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was April Dembosy, a health correspondent for KQED. This 30 minute conversation with April was cut down and edited by producer Maria Esquinca. Allen Montecillo is our senior editor. He scored this episode and added all the tape. If you liked this episode, consider sharing it with a friend. Word of mouth is one of the best ways to help our show. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara. Thank you for listening to the bay. Talk to you next time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "The Bay’s (Overlooked) Contributions to Hip-Hop",
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"content": "\u003cp dir=\"ltr\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp dir=\"ltr\">\u003cem>This episode contains explicit language.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp dir=\"ltr\">Hip-hop turns 50 years old today, and it’s no secret that the Bay Area gets overlooked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp dir=\"ltr\">Today, Eric Arnold and Nastia Voynovskaya join us to talk about KQED’s yearlong series exploring the history of Bay Area hip-hop — and how our region has shaped hip-hop through the years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"card card--enclosed grey\">\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC4288213762&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli dir=\"ltr\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/bayareahiphop/about\">That’s My Word\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli dir=\"ltr\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13924126/the-bay-area-was-hip-hop-before-there-was-hip-hop\">The Bay Area Was Hip-Hop Before There Was Hip-Hop\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli dir=\"ltr\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13932076/bay-area-hip-hop-50th-anniversary-celebrations?fbclid=PAAaZcaqjnWQAiiryVrSIk6Al7RPtcyhHWfzhiKwZI3F7M0rBUYGFqBmyZtNs_aem_AUZ0PtDPz3MWlew-JR0jIwgFa-ybrWmHEhDnZ8FYJ6bn3tV7IFtSGjM-Yz8hrtQuNMU\">Hip-Hop’s 50th Anniversary: Where to Celebrate in the Bay Area\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli dir=\"ltr\">\u003ca href=\"https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0qR8qB6JbTVhK2HDodBv4b?si=297f92cb403f4300\">That’s My Word, Spotify Playlists celebrating 50 years of Bay Area Hip Hop \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli dir=\"ltr\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13930867/whats-pimpin-culture-hip-hop-rap-sexism-misogynoir-black-women\">It’s Time to Unpack Pimp Culture in Bay Area Hip-Hop\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and Welcome to the Bay. Local News to Keep You Rooted. Today marks 50 years of hip hop. This anniversary traces back to August 11th, 1973, when a teenage deejay Kool Herc, mixed records at a back to school party in the Bronx. But before that, long before hip hop even had a name, the Bay Area was laying the foundations of hip hop culture. Even if the region doesn’t get the credit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>When I started digging into this, I noticed that there were all these things, all these really kind of foundational elements of hip hop that were not only identified with the Bay Area but originated with the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So today we’re talking about KQED’s That’s My Word series, a yearlong exploration of the Bay Area’s contributions to hip hop culture. We’ll talk about how the Bay has shaped some of the most important elements of the genre and how the Bay Area was hip hop before there even was hip hop. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>Bay Area hip hop is so diverse. We’re really talking about it in a geographic sense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>This is Nastia Voynovskaya, associate editor of KQED Arts and Culture. She co-edited KQED’s That’s My Word series, exploring the Bay’s contributions to hip hop with veteran hip hop journalist Eric Arnold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>We’re talking about five decades of evolution and this region that has so many distinct cities with their own scenes. You know, we have Oakland. Vallejo. Richmond. San Francisco. San Jose is Palo Alto, Pittsburgh. Fairfield. All different corners of the bay. And the artists from those scenes cross-pollinate and collaborate and influence one another. Even when you go back to the eighties, when the Bay Area scene really started taking off. In Oakland alone, you have two short making mob music and rapping about the underworld of the streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>Just like we had to work for my eight years on the mark and I’m not joking. So to start coming straight from Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>You have Digital Underground making fun, funky, silly and expressive music that tells people it’s okay to be different and weird. My name is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>And you have M.C.Hammer making pop rap and dancing and entertaining.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>And in San Francisco, there is Paris, who is known as the Black Panther of hip hop’s wisdom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>So all of these elements, the street, the revolutionary, experimental and commercial aspects are mixing together and influencing each other, and they continue to do so. So there’s not one sound or one style of Bay Area hip hop, and it’s all of these things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Eric Arnold, you’ve covered hip hop in the Bay Area for many years. Have you felt that Bay Area hip hop has been overlooked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>Almost every single day? I mean, it has it’s almost a defining characteristic of the bay, you know, And it it’s sort of the underground underdog mentality, the chip on the shoulder type thing, though we’re different where, you know, we’re not L.A., we’re not New York. But we made hella contributions to hip hop’s culture at its esthetic over the decades. You know, of course, we’ve created all these phrases like pushes that have gone on to become part of rap’s lexicon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>You wrote a piece for that’s My Word, titled The Bay Area was hip hop before there was hip hop. So I want to stick with you for a little bit. First of all, why go back to before hip hop was even a word?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>Hip hop was created or invented in 1973, but it wasn’t even named until 1981. So that means that that it was a culture of flops. And in development that entire time, it was still evolving. It was still emerging. So when I started digging into this, I noticed that there were all of these things, all these really kind of foundational elements of hip hop that were not only identified with the Bay Area, but originated with the Bay Area prior to 1973 or, you know, concurrent with, you know, 1973 to 1981. Whatever time period, you you know, you want to put on that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>In one of Eric’s pieces for that’s my word. He lays out three key ways that the Bay Area shaped hip hop that you can still see and hear today. The first is Boogaloo, a street dance movement pioneered by black youth in East Oakland. The second is Bay Area Funk. And third, the political movements that influenced a social consciousness in Bay Funk that we would later find in hip hop. Well, let me dig into Boogaloo with you. You describe it as sort of the ancestor of pop locking years before hip hop had a name and that it’s really this like whole culture with its own rituals and esthetic to it also, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>It is. Back in like 1964. It was youth driven. It came from the inner city. It was this inventive dance that kind of started with James Brown. But then people in East Oakland just started adding moves and developing this dance vocabulary and having competitive battles. As you do that, you actually create a cultural esthetic. So it becomes like this whole movement that spreads from East Oakland to West Oakland to North Oakland to Berkeley, to Emeryville, to Richmond, to San Francisco. When it gets to San Francisco, it’s called strutting. When it gets to Richmond, it’s called robotic. So it was very, very foundational and it occupied a place in sort of like the cultural milieu of the times that hip hop occupies now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And then it eventually reaches L.A., Right. How does it sort of transform into some of the dances that we now associate with hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>With Boogaloo? There were certain techniques or groups that became foundational to that, get it taking where you kind of move your hand like a clock, like the like the second hand of a clock on double tripping, which is like kind of like a side to side motion where you’re kind of you’re going forward, but moving kind of side to side, kind of sideways, getting down. And the opening hit, which is like, you’re dancing, then all of a sudden you stop on the beat, we’re gonna die. Well, that got integrated into what L.A. was doing, which was locking The Oakland hit became the pop. So that added the pop to the lot. And then you get pop locking. And then when breakdancing becomes integrated with pop locking in L.A. in the early eighties, the Oakland hit or the pop becomes part of that esthetic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I know. Aside from Boogaloo, another foundational element that you talk about in your piece is Bay Area Funk. How is Bay Area Funk in particular important to hip hop’s early sound and also esthetic and ideology?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>So you had funk invented by James Brown, and James Brown was an established artist. Right. So he already had a sound. But when Sly Stone came up, he has, like, this entirely different approach. He was this musical prodigy raised in the church in Vallejo. He had produced psychedelic records. And he starts to emphasize the interplay between the bass and the drum a little bit more and also creates space in the music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>And his bass player, Larry Graham, created the slap bass sound of the Pet Express, which then becomes the ubiquitous sound of Bach. Every fan group picks up that sound.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>And all that stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>But Sly Stone also crosses over to this mainstream multiethnic audience, and he’s able to do that while retaining a black identity so that every single black artist starts trying to get that sly Stone sound and do the same thing. And if you look at hip hop, hip hop has sort of embodied all of those characteristics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And another, I think, characteristic of Bay Funk and in particular Sly Stone’s sort of version of Funk, is this sort of social consciousness that he brings to the music. Right? And I know you also sort of point to this social consciousness as really central to Bay Area hip hop. As we, of course, know, this region has this really long legacy of progressive politics and multicultural social justice movements. So how do these social movements in the Bay Area in particular also become foundational to hip hop everywhere?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>So Bay Area, fuck it. You know, you mentioned that it was very progressive. I mean, it also censured women such as Sugar, Pride, as Tanto, the Pointer Sisters, and the Bride of Frankenstein.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>And there was a time when all of a sudden, like Funk said, Well, we need to be relevant to these times. And people are talking about liberation movements. And that all started with the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>And that that sort of because that’s a foundational element it sort of gets transposed into hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>So the Black Panthers were happening at the same time that the funk movement was happening and the boogaloo movement was happening. But they went national very early on in like the late sixties. They had more than 30 national chapters at one point. And the Black Panthers actually had a punk band called the Lumpen that addressed political topics back in the day. They also had a newsletter that had a circulation of between 350 to 400000. So when you think about Chuck D’s quote, that rap is at CNN of Black America for the Panther newsletter was a CNN of Black America before there was CNN or even before there was rap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>In 1968, the Black Panthers opened up a field office in Bronx River. Now, Bronx River is the birthplace of hip hop. And at that field office, they did outreach to the exact same. You became the first generation of New York hip hop. So literally, the Black Panther ideology is embedded in hip hop’s DNA, afros, the leather jackets, the sort of militant radical self-expression that they had. That’s all part of the esthetic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>Then you think about people like Tupac, whose parents were Panthers. He was a Panther cub. And Tupac sort of embodies this idea of the next generation and their expression. You know, not being Foxx, but being hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Nastia, I want to bring you in here and kind of come back to the present day as well. What are some of the ways that you see some of this history that Eric is talking about in hip hop today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean, Eric mentioned the nineties generation being Panther cubs. Now you have and the millennial and Gen Z generations, Panther, Grand Cub’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>League, one of the more popular Bay Area rappers out. You know Rex Fries has his dad kind of grew up around the Black Panthers and he infuses his music with that political consciousness even though he’s not a purely political artist. We are about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>He and other rappers that are gaining prominence right now, like Le Russell and Samba, also talk about community healing and their own personal healing, which is I feel like that’s the way that our generation’s kind of evolving that conversation with more consciousness around mental health and things like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>And then, you know, the other elements of Bay Area hip hop we’ve been talking about. And those conversation are still present and evolving in different ways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>And Larry June, who has a hit record out right now he’s kind of carrying over that funky sound but in a more modernized where he kind of has that old school player element that’s been foundational to Bay Area hip hop since the two short days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>You’re out. Also have artists like PUA sweetie drawing from behavior move man making that sort of uptempo party music but in a current way and you know their music is gaining mainstream traction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I feel like something that I’ve also noticed about Bay Area Music is this almost sort of DIY, entrepreneurial, independent spirit that I think Eric was describing earlier is very sort of underdog. How is that sort of a characteristic of Bay Area hip hop? And and does that also to you have roots in some of the history that we were talking about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>I mean, when you go back to. You know, artists selling tapes on consignment and selling out the trunk and outselling national artists. So the Bay Area was doing equal or better independently without radio play, without distribution. So I think that kind of typifies the independent mentality, having this mentality where you don’t feel like you have to conform to commercialism. But I also think that that connects to Afrofuturism and Afrofuturism as part of the Black Arts movement, which is also rooted in the Bay and rooted in Sun Ra and his type of expression. And then we see that in, you know, Bay Area rappers like Dell and Black Alicia’s and the Mystic Journeymen and how they’ve just come completely from left field and said, Okay. We’ve got this piano player stuff on one hand, but then we’ve got the super abstract backpack, stuff like that, and it’s all hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>He talks about artists like to for any 40 selling tapes out the trunk. You know that continued with CD is one those became available and then Bay area artists also really ran with the early social media like the pack and Little B really exploded on MySpace. So so did the hyphy movement, actually. And then, you know, artists like really embraced YouTube in its early days and people say that Mag Dres trill tbh predated blogging because he made these crazy DIY. A party documentary is about just all of his after hours escapades and kind of showing off like the sideshow culture and party culture of the bay. So Bay Area artists have always found a way, even if we don’t have the infrastructure of the mainstream music industry behind us. And I think, yeah, that underdog mentality still really defines the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong> Pilo on his song put me on some says last year they even like the bay You know that’s something that people sing along to Any time that plays in the club and just wear it as a badge of pride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I want to look ahead here with the two of you. Nazia We’re celebrating 50 years of hip hop, but how are you thinking about where hip hop is heading, particularly here in the Bay Area?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>Well, one really exciting thing we’ve been able to do with this project is include a lot of women’s voices and also kind of critically examine Bay Area hip hop with love and as fans and practitioners of the culture. The Bay Area hip hop scene is revolutionary and progressive in all these ways, but we’ve really seen misogyny get a huge pass because of that underdog mentality in the Bay Area. People have been hesitant to, you know, also criticize some aspects of the culture. But the scene is also evolving to include a lot more women’s voices. So now you have artists like Kinky Will Kill a stony alien marketeer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>Now I’m really excited to see how those conversations continue to develop, especially around women and queer and trans folks. These are all artists who are just super bold, expressive and captivating on stage, and I’m so excited to see how they’re going to evolve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>Well, I see it as a progression and I see it as a continuum and I see it as evolution. All of those things have continued to happen with hip hop in terms of it being a space where multiculturalism can flourish and come together. And we saw that with Sly Stone in, you know, everyday people, but we also saw it with to shore added lipids to shore it and you know, all the great Bay Area anthems, right? All of these things that brought people together and were really continuations of these social movements, these cultural movements, these political movements, these pushes for economic equity that began decades ago. And so history really is cyclical. When you look at the 16th Street train station in Oakland, it’s such a historic location. And knowing that it has all this history with with the Pullman porters. And then it was the place where they choreographed the turf dancers and tell me when to go really makes it seem like, you know, all that history is connected. Just one just one housekeeping thing. So we did mention Mac Dre R.I.P., but we also have to say R.I.P. to Dream. Gift of Gab. Zombie shot. Gee, all of our OG’s that we’ve lost along with Oscar Grant, all of our OGs that we’ve lost along the way who are still with us and we carry their memory to this day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>Yeah, The Jacka, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>The Jacka.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Traxamillion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>Traxamillion. Mr. C from RBL. I mean, the list goes on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>Yeah, but that’s a big reason for why we really want to thoroughly document and preserve this history, because unfortunately, we’re losing some of our hip hop legends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Eric and Nastia, I feel like I could talk to you all for so much longer than this. But thank you so much for coming on the show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>Thanks so much for having us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>Yeah, thank you. I can’t I can’t wait for this to come out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was Nastia Voynovskaya, associate editor of arts and culture for KQED, and Eric Arnold, a veteran hip hop journalist and co contributing editor of KQED’s That’s My Word. Nastia, Eric and the whole team are going to continue their coverage of Bay Area hip hop throughout the year. The series is also led by KQED’s Pendarvis Harshaw and Gabe Meline. Check out all the amazing work that they’re doing on this project at Bay Area Hip hop dot com. We’ve also got a bunch of other links in our show notes, including where to celebrate 50 years of hip hop right here in the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC].\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>This conversation was cut down and edited by producer Maria Esquinca. It was produced and scored by me. Alan Montecillo is our senior editor. The rest of our team here at KQED includes Jen Chien, the director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager. We also get audience engagement support from César Saldaña. Holly Kernan is our chief content officer. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Thanks for listening. Peace\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp dir=\"ltr\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp dir=\"ltr\">\u003cem>This episode contains explicit language.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp dir=\"ltr\">Hip-hop turns 50 years old today, and it’s no secret that the Bay Area gets overlooked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp dir=\"ltr\">Today, Eric Arnold and Nastia Voynovskaya join us to talk about KQED’s yearlong series exploring the history of Bay Area hip-hop — and how our region has shaped hip-hop through the years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"card card--enclosed grey\">\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC4288213762&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli dir=\"ltr\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/bayareahiphop/about\">That’s My Word\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli dir=\"ltr\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13924126/the-bay-area-was-hip-hop-before-there-was-hip-hop\">The Bay Area Was Hip-Hop Before There Was Hip-Hop\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli dir=\"ltr\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13932076/bay-area-hip-hop-50th-anniversary-celebrations?fbclid=PAAaZcaqjnWQAiiryVrSIk6Al7RPtcyhHWfzhiKwZI3F7M0rBUYGFqBmyZtNs_aem_AUZ0PtDPz3MWlew-JR0jIwgFa-ybrWmHEhDnZ8FYJ6bn3tV7IFtSGjM-Yz8hrtQuNMU\">Hip-Hop’s 50th Anniversary: Where to Celebrate in the Bay Area\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli dir=\"ltr\">\u003ca href=\"https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0qR8qB6JbTVhK2HDodBv4b?si=297f92cb403f4300\">That’s My Word, Spotify Playlists celebrating 50 years of Bay Area Hip Hop \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli dir=\"ltr\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13930867/whats-pimpin-culture-hip-hop-rap-sexism-misogynoir-black-women\">It’s Time to Unpack Pimp Culture in Bay Area Hip-Hop\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and Welcome to the Bay. Local News to Keep You Rooted. Today marks 50 years of hip hop. This anniversary traces back to August 11th, 1973, when a teenage deejay Kool Herc, mixed records at a back to school party in the Bronx. But before that, long before hip hop even had a name, the Bay Area was laying the foundations of hip hop culture. Even if the region doesn’t get the credit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>When I started digging into this, I noticed that there were all these things, all these really kind of foundational elements of hip hop that were not only identified with the Bay Area but originated with the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So today we’re talking about KQED’s That’s My Word series, a yearlong exploration of the Bay Area’s contributions to hip hop culture. We’ll talk about how the Bay has shaped some of the most important elements of the genre and how the Bay Area was hip hop before there even was hip hop. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>Bay Area hip hop is so diverse. We’re really talking about it in a geographic sense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>This is Nastia Voynovskaya, associate editor of KQED Arts and Culture. She co-edited KQED’s That’s My Word series, exploring the Bay’s contributions to hip hop with veteran hip hop journalist Eric Arnold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>We’re talking about five decades of evolution and this region that has so many distinct cities with their own scenes. You know, we have Oakland. Vallejo. Richmond. San Francisco. San Jose is Palo Alto, Pittsburgh. Fairfield. All different corners of the bay. And the artists from those scenes cross-pollinate and collaborate and influence one another. Even when you go back to the eighties, when the Bay Area scene really started taking off. In Oakland alone, you have two short making mob music and rapping about the underworld of the streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>Just like we had to work for my eight years on the mark and I’m not joking. So to start coming straight from Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>You have Digital Underground making fun, funky, silly and expressive music that tells people it’s okay to be different and weird. My name is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>And you have M.C.Hammer making pop rap and dancing and entertaining.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>And in San Francisco, there is Paris, who is known as the Black Panther of hip hop’s wisdom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>So all of these elements, the street, the revolutionary, experimental and commercial aspects are mixing together and influencing each other, and they continue to do so. So there’s not one sound or one style of Bay Area hip hop, and it’s all of these things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Eric Arnold, you’ve covered hip hop in the Bay Area for many years. Have you felt that Bay Area hip hop has been overlooked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>Almost every single day? I mean, it has it’s almost a defining characteristic of the bay, you know, And it it’s sort of the underground underdog mentality, the chip on the shoulder type thing, though we’re different where, you know, we’re not L.A., we’re not New York. But we made hella contributions to hip hop’s culture at its esthetic over the decades. You know, of course, we’ve created all these phrases like pushes that have gone on to become part of rap’s lexicon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>You wrote a piece for that’s My Word, titled The Bay Area was hip hop before there was hip hop. So I want to stick with you for a little bit. First of all, why go back to before hip hop was even a word?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>Hip hop was created or invented in 1973, but it wasn’t even named until 1981. So that means that that it was a culture of flops. And in development that entire time, it was still evolving. It was still emerging. So when I started digging into this, I noticed that there were all of these things, all these really kind of foundational elements of hip hop that were not only identified with the Bay Area, but originated with the Bay Area prior to 1973 or, you know, concurrent with, you know, 1973 to 1981. Whatever time period, you you know, you want to put on that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>In one of Eric’s pieces for that’s my word. He lays out three key ways that the Bay Area shaped hip hop that you can still see and hear today. The first is Boogaloo, a street dance movement pioneered by black youth in East Oakland. The second is Bay Area Funk. And third, the political movements that influenced a social consciousness in Bay Funk that we would later find in hip hop. Well, let me dig into Boogaloo with you. You describe it as sort of the ancestor of pop locking years before hip hop had a name and that it’s really this like whole culture with its own rituals and esthetic to it also, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>It is. Back in like 1964. It was youth driven. It came from the inner city. It was this inventive dance that kind of started with James Brown. But then people in East Oakland just started adding moves and developing this dance vocabulary and having competitive battles. As you do that, you actually create a cultural esthetic. So it becomes like this whole movement that spreads from East Oakland to West Oakland to North Oakland to Berkeley, to Emeryville, to Richmond, to San Francisco. When it gets to San Francisco, it’s called strutting. When it gets to Richmond, it’s called robotic. So it was very, very foundational and it occupied a place in sort of like the cultural milieu of the times that hip hop occupies now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And then it eventually reaches L.A., Right. How does it sort of transform into some of the dances that we now associate with hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>With Boogaloo? There were certain techniques or groups that became foundational to that, get it taking where you kind of move your hand like a clock, like the like the second hand of a clock on double tripping, which is like kind of like a side to side motion where you’re kind of you’re going forward, but moving kind of side to side, kind of sideways, getting down. And the opening hit, which is like, you’re dancing, then all of a sudden you stop on the beat, we’re gonna die. Well, that got integrated into what L.A. was doing, which was locking The Oakland hit became the pop. So that added the pop to the lot. And then you get pop locking. And then when breakdancing becomes integrated with pop locking in L.A. in the early eighties, the Oakland hit or the pop becomes part of that esthetic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I know. Aside from Boogaloo, another foundational element that you talk about in your piece is Bay Area Funk. How is Bay Area Funk in particular important to hip hop’s early sound and also esthetic and ideology?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>So you had funk invented by James Brown, and James Brown was an established artist. Right. So he already had a sound. But when Sly Stone came up, he has, like, this entirely different approach. He was this musical prodigy raised in the church in Vallejo. He had produced psychedelic records. And he starts to emphasize the interplay between the bass and the drum a little bit more and also creates space in the music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>And his bass player, Larry Graham, created the slap bass sound of the Pet Express, which then becomes the ubiquitous sound of Bach. Every fan group picks up that sound.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>And all that stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>But Sly Stone also crosses over to this mainstream multiethnic audience, and he’s able to do that while retaining a black identity so that every single black artist starts trying to get that sly Stone sound and do the same thing. And if you look at hip hop, hip hop has sort of embodied all of those characteristics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And another, I think, characteristic of Bay Funk and in particular Sly Stone’s sort of version of Funk, is this sort of social consciousness that he brings to the music. Right? And I know you also sort of point to this social consciousness as really central to Bay Area hip hop. As we, of course, know, this region has this really long legacy of progressive politics and multicultural social justice movements. So how do these social movements in the Bay Area in particular also become foundational to hip hop everywhere?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>So Bay Area, fuck it. You know, you mentioned that it was very progressive. I mean, it also censured women such as Sugar, Pride, as Tanto, the Pointer Sisters, and the Bride of Frankenstein.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>And there was a time when all of a sudden, like Funk said, Well, we need to be relevant to these times. And people are talking about liberation movements. And that all started with the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>And that that sort of because that’s a foundational element it sort of gets transposed into hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>So the Black Panthers were happening at the same time that the funk movement was happening and the boogaloo movement was happening. But they went national very early on in like the late sixties. They had more than 30 national chapters at one point. And the Black Panthers actually had a punk band called the Lumpen that addressed political topics back in the day. They also had a newsletter that had a circulation of between 350 to 400000. So when you think about Chuck D’s quote, that rap is at CNN of Black America for the Panther newsletter was a CNN of Black America before there was CNN or even before there was rap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>In 1968, the Black Panthers opened up a field office in Bronx River. Now, Bronx River is the birthplace of hip hop. And at that field office, they did outreach to the exact same. You became the first generation of New York hip hop. So literally, the Black Panther ideology is embedded in hip hop’s DNA, afros, the leather jackets, the sort of militant radical self-expression that they had. That’s all part of the esthetic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>Then you think about people like Tupac, whose parents were Panthers. He was a Panther cub. And Tupac sort of embodies this idea of the next generation and their expression. You know, not being Foxx, but being hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Nastia, I want to bring you in here and kind of come back to the present day as well. What are some of the ways that you see some of this history that Eric is talking about in hip hop today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean, Eric mentioned the nineties generation being Panther cubs. Now you have and the millennial and Gen Z generations, Panther, Grand Cub’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>League, one of the more popular Bay Area rappers out. You know Rex Fries has his dad kind of grew up around the Black Panthers and he infuses his music with that political consciousness even though he’s not a purely political artist. We are about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>He and other rappers that are gaining prominence right now, like Le Russell and Samba, also talk about community healing and their own personal healing, which is I feel like that’s the way that our generation’s kind of evolving that conversation with more consciousness around mental health and things like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>And then, you know, the other elements of Bay Area hip hop we’ve been talking about. And those conversation are still present and evolving in different ways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>And Larry June, who has a hit record out right now he’s kind of carrying over that funky sound but in a more modernized where he kind of has that old school player element that’s been foundational to Bay Area hip hop since the two short days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>You’re out. Also have artists like PUA sweetie drawing from behavior move man making that sort of uptempo party music but in a current way and you know their music is gaining mainstream traction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I feel like something that I’ve also noticed about Bay Area Music is this almost sort of DIY, entrepreneurial, independent spirit that I think Eric was describing earlier is very sort of underdog. How is that sort of a characteristic of Bay Area hip hop? And and does that also to you have roots in some of the history that we were talking about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>I mean, when you go back to. You know, artists selling tapes on consignment and selling out the trunk and outselling national artists. So the Bay Area was doing equal or better independently without radio play, without distribution. So I think that kind of typifies the independent mentality, having this mentality where you don’t feel like you have to conform to commercialism. But I also think that that connects to Afrofuturism and Afrofuturism as part of the Black Arts movement, which is also rooted in the Bay and rooted in Sun Ra and his type of expression. And then we see that in, you know, Bay Area rappers like Dell and Black Alicia’s and the Mystic Journeymen and how they’ve just come completely from left field and said, Okay. We’ve got this piano player stuff on one hand, but then we’ve got the super abstract backpack, stuff like that, and it’s all hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>He talks about artists like to for any 40 selling tapes out the trunk. You know that continued with CD is one those became available and then Bay area artists also really ran with the early social media like the pack and Little B really exploded on MySpace. So so did the hyphy movement, actually. And then, you know, artists like really embraced YouTube in its early days and people say that Mag Dres trill tbh predated blogging because he made these crazy DIY. A party documentary is about just all of his after hours escapades and kind of showing off like the sideshow culture and party culture of the bay. So Bay Area artists have always found a way, even if we don’t have the infrastructure of the mainstream music industry behind us. And I think, yeah, that underdog mentality still really defines the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong> Pilo on his song put me on some says last year they even like the bay You know that’s something that people sing along to Any time that plays in the club and just wear it as a badge of pride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I want to look ahead here with the two of you. Nazia We’re celebrating 50 years of hip hop, but how are you thinking about where hip hop is heading, particularly here in the Bay Area?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>Well, one really exciting thing we’ve been able to do with this project is include a lot of women’s voices and also kind of critically examine Bay Area hip hop with love and as fans and practitioners of the culture. The Bay Area hip hop scene is revolutionary and progressive in all these ways, but we’ve really seen misogyny get a huge pass because of that underdog mentality in the Bay Area. People have been hesitant to, you know, also criticize some aspects of the culture. But the scene is also evolving to include a lot more women’s voices. So now you have artists like Kinky Will Kill a stony alien marketeer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>Now I’m really excited to see how those conversations continue to develop, especially around women and queer and trans folks. These are all artists who are just super bold, expressive and captivating on stage, and I’m so excited to see how they’re going to evolve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>Well, I see it as a progression and I see it as a continuum and I see it as evolution. All of those things have continued to happen with hip hop in terms of it being a space where multiculturalism can flourish and come together. And we saw that with Sly Stone in, you know, everyday people, but we also saw it with to shore added lipids to shore it and you know, all the great Bay Area anthems, right? All of these things that brought people together and were really continuations of these social movements, these cultural movements, these political movements, these pushes for economic equity that began decades ago. And so history really is cyclical. When you look at the 16th Street train station in Oakland, it’s such a historic location. And knowing that it has all this history with with the Pullman porters. And then it was the place where they choreographed the turf dancers and tell me when to go really makes it seem like, you know, all that history is connected. Just one just one housekeeping thing. So we did mention Mac Dre R.I.P., but we also have to say R.I.P. to Dream. Gift of Gab. Zombie shot. Gee, all of our OG’s that we’ve lost along with Oscar Grant, all of our OGs that we’ve lost along the way who are still with us and we carry their memory to this day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>Yeah, The Jacka, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>The Jacka.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Traxamillion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>Traxamillion. Mr. C from RBL. I mean, the list goes on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>Yeah, but that’s a big reason for why we really want to thoroughly document and preserve this history, because unfortunately, we’re losing some of our hip hop legends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Eric and Nastia, I feel like I could talk to you all for so much longer than this. But thank you so much for coming on the show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nastia Voynovskaya: \u003c/strong>Thanks so much for having us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Eric Arnold: \u003c/strong>Yeah, thank you. I can’t I can’t wait for this to come out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was Nastia Voynovskaya, associate editor of arts and culture for KQED, and Eric Arnold, a veteran hip hop journalist and co contributing editor of KQED’s That’s My Word. Nastia, Eric and the whole team are going to continue their coverage of Bay Area hip hop throughout the year. The series is also led by KQED’s Pendarvis Harshaw and Gabe Meline. Check out all the amazing work that they’re doing on this project at Bay Area Hip hop dot com. We’ve also got a bunch of other links in our show notes, including where to celebrate 50 years of hip hop right here in the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>MUSIC: \u003c/strong>[MUSIC].\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>This conversation was cut down and edited by producer Maria Esquinca. It was produced and scored by me. Alan Montecillo is our senior editor. The rest of our team here at KQED includes Jen Chien, the director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager. We also get audience engagement support from César Saldaña. Holly Kernan is our chief content officer. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Thanks for listening. Peace\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "San José City Workers Are About to Go on Strike",
"headTitle": "San José City Workers Are About to Go on Strike | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Next Tuesday, nearly 4,500 San José city workers are planning to walk off the job for three days. Garbage, fire, and police won’t be affected, but many critical services like the airport, libraries, and housing construction will be. KQED’s Guy Marzorati explains how we got here, and what could happen next. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC4929729158&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. And welcome to The Bay. Local news to Keep You Rooted. Nearly 4500 employees with the city of San Jose are about to go on a three day strike starting next week after contract negotiations over higher pay fell through. Workers from the housing department to the zoo say they plan to walk off the job until the city agrees to pay up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>David Nerhood: \u003c/strong>I’m in a little bit of a daze. I’m happy it’s where we need to go. But I’m thinking it’s a shame it had to come to this. I would really prefer not to strike. I had a lot of nervous nights around it. I was on the negotiating team, but there’s this aura here. There’s this aura about good things are going to happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>But 4500 people whose literal job is to keep the city running, there’s a lot of people. So what do all these employees say they want from the city that they aren’t getting? And what’s a strike going to mean for all the crucial services they provide? That’s coming up right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>We’re talking about a lot of workers. I mean, this is nearly 4500 employees in jobs all across the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Guy Marzorati is a politics and government correspondent for KQED, who’s based in San Jose.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Literally from A to Z, you have airport employees at San Jose Mineta. You have the zoo workers at Happy Hollow. In between that, you have, you know, code inspectors, people managing city parks, librarians, city planners, all of these employees had their contract expire on June 30th and are now, you know, potentially going to be striking next week. And the plan is a work stoppage that’s set to begin six in the morning on Tuesday, August 15th, and last until six in the morning on Friday, August 18th. That does not include, however, police and fire. They’re not allowed to strike in California. And besides that, they are separate unions that have their own existing contracts with the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Why is this happening? Like, how did we get here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, well, one huge piece of this is San Jose’s tax base. I mean, historically, it’s been the only major city in the U.S. that has a smaller daytime population than a nighttime population. And what that basically means is there’s not a lot of jobs here. Historically, people live in this city, but go to work for companies that are located elsewhere in the bay. And that’s led to a lot of challenges with the tax base. So on a per capita basis, San Jose is getting, you know, lower property tax revenue, lower sales tax revenue than its neighbors. And then what that translates to is a lack of funding for city services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Michael Jun: \u003c/strong>I think it’s kind of well understood that we are underpaid compared to other municipalities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So Michael Jun:works on residential development in the city’s housing department. He talks a lot about making up the gap between what he’s paid and kind of what he thinks he deserves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Michael Jun: \u003c/strong>What we’re hoping for is a little bit of kind of just trying to make up the gap between what we feel we deserve and what we feel is required to provide the level of services our residents deserve and what the city right now is willing to give.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>He mentioned anecdotally at least he sees colleagues leaving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Michael Jun: \u003c/strong>I don’t know. Just like last month, we had several closings and new construction groundbreaking. But if we had more people, we could have built more affordable housing and quicker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So I also talked to a city employee named David Nerhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>David Nerhood: \u003c/strong>I’m a 22-year veteran of the city of San Jose. I work the first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>He’s a financial analyst with the Department of Transportation. Before that, he worked with the Department of Public Works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>David Nerhood: \u003c/strong>I’m in a little bit of a daze. I’m happy It’s where we need to go. But I’m thinking it’s a shame it had to come to this. I would really prefer not to strike. I had a lot of nervous nights around it. I was on the negotiating team. So I know that we weren’t where we needed to be. So I’m fully in favor of it. And I think the nervousness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>He used this word. Training ground. He that’s how he described San Jose.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>David Nerhood: \u003c/strong>So you get these kids coming out of college, and I’ve worked with so many of them, and they’re some of the most capable young kids that I meet. And I’m getting excited.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>You talked about all these experiences he’s had with young planners or young engineers that he’s helped train in his department who have then, you know, in a year or maybe two years, they call him, say, you know, David, thanks for everything, but I’ve got a better job offer in Fremont, in Santa Clara, somewhere else. And he loses that kind of budding talent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>David Nerhood: \u003c/strong>They’ll get paid better with probably a less complicated workload. I don’t know the word to use for doing the same exact work at that other place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>The unions want a pay increase over the next three fiscal years. In their most recent offer. Workers would get a 7% increase this year, 6% the following, and 5% after that. The city is offered a 5%, 4% and 3% raise over that same period. And the city says that’s because they can’t really afford to go any higher. I know you talked with Mayor Matt Mehan. How has he responded to these demands to pay workers more?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yes. I’ll start by noting that the unions are actually negotiating with officials in the city manager’s office, not the mayor’s office. So in this setup, may hands just one vote on the council. The council can meet with the city manager and give direction on what can be offered. But all that said, Mahen has been kind of the de facto spokesperson for the city side of bargaining.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Matt Mahan: \u003c/strong>So we have limited resources. We’re always trying to strike a fair balance for both residents and city workers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>He’s basically made the argument that the fiscal year already started. The council, if they offer more than 5%, they’re going to go back into the budget that they approved in June and find cuts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Matt Mahan: \u003c/strong>The math is very clear, and I certainly don’t want to see and won’t support cuts to police or fire staffing, library hours, any other essential services. At the margins, there may be ways to be creative, but we have to find ongoing funding for wage increases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So far, Macon’s kind of stuck to that argument. That being said, he hasn’t really gone on the offensive against the unions, and that’s something I’m going to be watching in the days to come. Now that we’re edging towards this massive work stoppage, does he like kind of heat up his rhetoric and even go as far as like attacking the unions, attacking city workers?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, what do we make of that idea guy that, like there isn’t enough money to raise wages by the amount that the union wants? I mean, they feel like that’s sort of something we hear often. Like what do we make of that idea that it would require cuts to other things that people probably won’t be happy about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So I think, you know, that all of that remains to be seen. Like it’s impossible to know until the council would be pressed in that situation if they had to go above whatever they allocated for raises in this fiscal year to go back and amend the budget. And, you know, you often do get into kind of accounting tricks where you budget something based on excess funds that you think you might have at the end of the year. Mehan wants to avoid that. Union leaders have made the argument that the city often ends up with this kind of excess funds and that that might be a place to look in the unions opinions for ways to get the existing city employees higher wages in the short term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, I mean, 4500 city workers going on strike. That’s pretty significant. Is the city prepared?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>No. I mean, you can prepare, but there is no way you can completely mitigate the effects. I mean, San Jose has about 7000 employees. We’re talking about unions representing 4500 people. Now, it would be a huge impact. And the city acknowledges that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong>Well, there are likely to be disruptions and a lot of that will depend on how many people adhere to the strike itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>But I talked with Kip Harkness. He’s a deputy city manager. He said with the caveat that, you know, it’s impossible to know the full effect of a strike until we see how many people wake up that morning and hit the picket lines. But he expects libraries, community centers to be among the places that residents would really notice a drop off in service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong>Where there would be service difficulties. We have plans for workers, contractors to continue the work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Got it. So it’d be bringing in contractors to maybe fill some of those positions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Perhaps contractors to fill some of those positions, as well as for certain positions that are critical to public health and safety. Those can be prohibited from striking garbage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Recycling services are contracted out, so they’re not going to be affected by a strike. But outside of that, union officials have warned of really broad impacts. I mentioned the airport. They say there could be flight delays, youth summer camps getting canceled. So starting next week, over the course of those three days, residents could notice, you know, a lot of changes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>There is still time between now and the start of the strike, right, guys? So does that mean that things could take a turn before the strike even happens?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, there’s still definitely the possibility that a deal gets reached. The city council met Tuesday with the city manager in closed session. Again, they could kind of give direction to raise the offer. There’s also this possibility that Megan floated when I talked with him about the second and third years of the contract. So maybe there’s ways to increase those raises based on how much tax revenue comes in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Matt Mahan: \u003c/strong>If our revenue comes in higher than expected, I think it would be appropriate for us to have a modest increase that’s automatically triggered if there’s more money. If we have the money there, I would be perfectly happy with increasing wages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Or even just build those raises in. And then you go into the next budget process knowing that you have to account for those. I think what the what Mehan and like minded city officials are really concerned about is this current fiscal year where they’ve already passed the budget. That process is done. They’re worried about having to go revisit those numbers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>How would you maybe sum up this moment in San Jose? Like, why do you think this is happening now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Well, I’d say the mood is probably, you know, a bit uncertain. There hasn’t been a major strike in the city like this since 1981. So this whole experience is going to be new for a lot of residents, even a lot of city officials. I mean, they’ve never experienced something like that. As to why this is happening now, I mean, we are in the hot Labor Summer, I guess, and we’re seeing this kind of extend to the municipal sector, not just in San Jose, L.A., too. There was a one day strike on Tuesday by thousands of city employees there. And it’s the same story you hear in the private sector, right? The cost of living has skyrocketed with inflation. And again, when you’re only able to bargain or negotiate these wages on a set timetable over the span of this contract that expired on June 30th, that’s when we’ve seen this major inflation occur in the country. So there hasn’t been an opportunity for a lot of workers to go to the table and in their mind, kind of catch up to all the rising prices that have been baked in over the last few years. You may only get this one chance every few years to secure a boost like this. The stakes are magnified by inflation, and I think that’s why you’re seeing this standoff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Guy, thanks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was Guy Marzorati, a politics and government correspondent for KQED, who’s based in San Jose. Guy’s also the producer of the Political Breakdown podcast, which you can find wherever you found the Bay. This episode was cut down and edited by senior editor Alan Montecillo. Maria Esquinca is our producer. She scored this episode and added of the tape extra production support from me. If you like this episode, consider sharing it with a friend. And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you next time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Hot Labor Summer. Did you make that up?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>No, I did not. Okay. But on top of hot Labor Summer, it’s also just a hot summer. Can I say that, too? This is all, you know, taking place in just a hot South Bay summer as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Next Tuesday, nearly 4,500 San José city workers are planning to walk off the job for three days. Garbage, fire, and police won’t be affected, but many critical services like the airport, libraries, and housing construction will be. KQED’s Guy Marzorati explains how we got here, and what could happen next. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC4929729158&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. And welcome to The Bay. Local news to Keep You Rooted. Nearly 4500 employees with the city of San Jose are about to go on a three day strike starting next week after contract negotiations over higher pay fell through. Workers from the housing department to the zoo say they plan to walk off the job until the city agrees to pay up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>David Nerhood: \u003c/strong>I’m in a little bit of a daze. I’m happy it’s where we need to go. But I’m thinking it’s a shame it had to come to this. I would really prefer not to strike. I had a lot of nervous nights around it. I was on the negotiating team, but there’s this aura here. There’s this aura about good things are going to happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>But 4500 people whose literal job is to keep the city running, there’s a lot of people. So what do all these employees say they want from the city that they aren’t getting? And what’s a strike going to mean for all the crucial services they provide? That’s coming up right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>We’re talking about a lot of workers. I mean, this is nearly 4500 employees in jobs all across the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Guy Marzorati is a politics and government correspondent for KQED, who’s based in San Jose.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Literally from A to Z, you have airport employees at San Jose Mineta. You have the zoo workers at Happy Hollow. In between that, you have, you know, code inspectors, people managing city parks, librarians, city planners, all of these employees had their contract expire on June 30th and are now, you know, potentially going to be striking next week. And the plan is a work stoppage that’s set to begin six in the morning on Tuesday, August 15th, and last until six in the morning on Friday, August 18th. That does not include, however, police and fire. They’re not allowed to strike in California. And besides that, they are separate unions that have their own existing contracts with the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Why is this happening? Like, how did we get here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, well, one huge piece of this is San Jose’s tax base. I mean, historically, it’s been the only major city in the U.S. that has a smaller daytime population than a nighttime population. And what that basically means is there’s not a lot of jobs here. Historically, people live in this city, but go to work for companies that are located elsewhere in the bay. And that’s led to a lot of challenges with the tax base. So on a per capita basis, San Jose is getting, you know, lower property tax revenue, lower sales tax revenue than its neighbors. And then what that translates to is a lack of funding for city services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Michael Jun: \u003c/strong>I think it’s kind of well understood that we are underpaid compared to other municipalities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So Michael Jun:works on residential development in the city’s housing department. He talks a lot about making up the gap between what he’s paid and kind of what he thinks he deserves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Michael Jun: \u003c/strong>What we’re hoping for is a little bit of kind of just trying to make up the gap between what we feel we deserve and what we feel is required to provide the level of services our residents deserve and what the city right now is willing to give.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>He mentioned anecdotally at least he sees colleagues leaving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Michael Jun: \u003c/strong>I don’t know. Just like last month, we had several closings and new construction groundbreaking. But if we had more people, we could have built more affordable housing and quicker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So I also talked to a city employee named David Nerhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>David Nerhood: \u003c/strong>I’m a 22-year veteran of the city of San Jose. I work the first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>He’s a financial analyst with the Department of Transportation. Before that, he worked with the Department of Public Works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>David Nerhood: \u003c/strong>I’m in a little bit of a daze. I’m happy It’s where we need to go. But I’m thinking it’s a shame it had to come to this. I would really prefer not to strike. I had a lot of nervous nights around it. I was on the negotiating team. So I know that we weren’t where we needed to be. So I’m fully in favor of it. And I think the nervousness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>He used this word. Training ground. He that’s how he described San Jose.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>David Nerhood: \u003c/strong>So you get these kids coming out of college, and I’ve worked with so many of them, and they’re some of the most capable young kids that I meet. And I’m getting excited.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>You talked about all these experiences he’s had with young planners or young engineers that he’s helped train in his department who have then, you know, in a year or maybe two years, they call him, say, you know, David, thanks for everything, but I’ve got a better job offer in Fremont, in Santa Clara, somewhere else. And he loses that kind of budding talent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>David Nerhood: \u003c/strong>They’ll get paid better with probably a less complicated workload. I don’t know the word to use for doing the same exact work at that other place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>The unions want a pay increase over the next three fiscal years. In their most recent offer. Workers would get a 7% increase this year, 6% the following, and 5% after that. The city is offered a 5%, 4% and 3% raise over that same period. And the city says that’s because they can’t really afford to go any higher. I know you talked with Mayor Matt Mehan. How has he responded to these demands to pay workers more?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yes. I’ll start by noting that the unions are actually negotiating with officials in the city manager’s office, not the mayor’s office. So in this setup, may hands just one vote on the council. The council can meet with the city manager and give direction on what can be offered. But all that said, Mahen has been kind of the de facto spokesperson for the city side of bargaining.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Matt Mahan: \u003c/strong>So we have limited resources. We’re always trying to strike a fair balance for both residents and city workers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>He’s basically made the argument that the fiscal year already started. The council, if they offer more than 5%, they’re going to go back into the budget that they approved in June and find cuts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Matt Mahan: \u003c/strong>The math is very clear, and I certainly don’t want to see and won’t support cuts to police or fire staffing, library hours, any other essential services. At the margins, there may be ways to be creative, but we have to find ongoing funding for wage increases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So far, Macon’s kind of stuck to that argument. That being said, he hasn’t really gone on the offensive against the unions, and that’s something I’m going to be watching in the days to come. Now that we’re edging towards this massive work stoppage, does he like kind of heat up his rhetoric and even go as far as like attacking the unions, attacking city workers?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, what do we make of that idea guy that, like there isn’t enough money to raise wages by the amount that the union wants? I mean, they feel like that’s sort of something we hear often. Like what do we make of that idea that it would require cuts to other things that people probably won’t be happy about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So I think, you know, that all of that remains to be seen. Like it’s impossible to know until the council would be pressed in that situation if they had to go above whatever they allocated for raises in this fiscal year to go back and amend the budget. And, you know, you often do get into kind of accounting tricks where you budget something based on excess funds that you think you might have at the end of the year. Mehan wants to avoid that. Union leaders have made the argument that the city often ends up with this kind of excess funds and that that might be a place to look in the unions opinions for ways to get the existing city employees higher wages in the short term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, I mean, 4500 city workers going on strike. That’s pretty significant. Is the city prepared?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>No. I mean, you can prepare, but there is no way you can completely mitigate the effects. I mean, San Jose has about 7000 employees. We’re talking about unions representing 4500 people. Now, it would be a huge impact. And the city acknowledges that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong>Well, there are likely to be disruptions and a lot of that will depend on how many people adhere to the strike itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>But I talked with Kip Harkness. He’s a deputy city manager. He said with the caveat that, you know, it’s impossible to know the full effect of a strike until we see how many people wake up that morning and hit the picket lines. But he expects libraries, community centers to be among the places that residents would really notice a drop off in service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong>Where there would be service difficulties. We have plans for workers, contractors to continue the work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Got it. So it’d be bringing in contractors to maybe fill some of those positions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Perhaps contractors to fill some of those positions, as well as for certain positions that are critical to public health and safety. Those can be prohibited from striking garbage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Recycling services are contracted out, so they’re not going to be affected by a strike. But outside of that, union officials have warned of really broad impacts. I mentioned the airport. They say there could be flight delays, youth summer camps getting canceled. So starting next week, over the course of those three days, residents could notice, you know, a lot of changes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>There is still time between now and the start of the strike, right, guys? So does that mean that things could take a turn before the strike even happens?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, there’s still definitely the possibility that a deal gets reached. The city council met Tuesday with the city manager in closed session. Again, they could kind of give direction to raise the offer. There’s also this possibility that Megan floated when I talked with him about the second and third years of the contract. So maybe there’s ways to increase those raises based on how much tax revenue comes in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Matt Mahan: \u003c/strong>If our revenue comes in higher than expected, I think it would be appropriate for us to have a modest increase that’s automatically triggered if there’s more money. If we have the money there, I would be perfectly happy with increasing wages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Or even just build those raises in. And then you go into the next budget process knowing that you have to account for those. I think what the what Mehan and like minded city officials are really concerned about is this current fiscal year where they’ve already passed the budget. That process is done. They’re worried about having to go revisit those numbers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>How would you maybe sum up this moment in San Jose? Like, why do you think this is happening now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Well, I’d say the mood is probably, you know, a bit uncertain. There hasn’t been a major strike in the city like this since 1981. So this whole experience is going to be new for a lot of residents, even a lot of city officials. I mean, they’ve never experienced something like that. As to why this is happening now, I mean, we are in the hot Labor Summer, I guess, and we’re seeing this kind of extend to the municipal sector, not just in San Jose, L.A., too. There was a one day strike on Tuesday by thousands of city employees there. And it’s the same story you hear in the private sector, right? The cost of living has skyrocketed with inflation. And again, when you’re only able to bargain or negotiate these wages on a set timetable over the span of this contract that expired on June 30th, that’s when we’ve seen this major inflation occur in the country. So there hasn’t been an opportunity for a lot of workers to go to the table and in their mind, kind of catch up to all the rising prices that have been baked in over the last few years. You may only get this one chance every few years to secure a boost like this. The stakes are magnified by inflation, and I think that’s why you’re seeing this standoff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Guy, thanks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was Guy Marzorati, a politics and government correspondent for KQED, who’s based in San Jose. Guy’s also the producer of the Political Breakdown podcast, which you can find wherever you found the Bay. This episode was cut down and edited by senior editor Alan Montecillo. Maria Esquinca is our producer. She scored this episode and added of the tape extra production support from me. If you like this episode, consider sharing it with a friend. And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you next time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Hot Labor Summer. Did you make that up?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>No, I did not. Okay. But on top of hot Labor Summer, it’s also just a hot summer. Can I say that, too? This is all, you know, taking place in just a hot South Bay summer as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "In Martinez, More Residents Want to Hold the Refinery Accountable",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the morning after Thanksgiving last year, Martinez residents woke up and found a strange, white powder coating their neighborhoods. It came from the nearby refinery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Will McCarthy from \u003cem>The Mercury News\u003c/em> tells us what happened next, and how this incident spurred angry neighbors into action for the first time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"card card--enclosed grey\">\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8681595507&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to the Bay. Local News to Keep You Rooted. Martinez is just one of a few cities in the Bay Area that you could call a refinery town. The Martinez Refining Company, owned by PBF Energy, is a huge facility, just a little bigger than Central Park in New York, and it’s been around for over a hundred years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now today, it employs between 600 to 700 hundred people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Will McCarthy, a reporter for the Mercury News. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many of those people live in Martinez and the surrounding communities. So it’s been a part of this community for literally generations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s not just jobs. The refinery sends money to the city’s Chamber of Commerce. You’ll see signs of their brand around town at community events like this annual fun run that the refinery hosts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they’re definitely a presence in the community beyond just being an employer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But that presence is being met with more and more skepticism these days. Residents are raising the alarm after several instances of ash and dust coming out of the refinery and raining down on the city. And they’re starting to push for some change. So today we’re going to talk with Will about a shift that’s happening in Martinez and why more residents want to hold the refinery accountable. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s kind of amazing that it all started on Thanksgiving night. It feels really sort of like poignant in that way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And we were super excited to host all of our friends and family for Thanksgiving dinner. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Heidi Taylor moved to Martinez about a year ago. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And unbeknownst to us, as they were leaving, they were being showered with heavy toxic metals. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After people sort of went to bed after a pair of Thanksgiving dinners. The refinery emitted about 28 tons of metal laden dust called Spent Catalyst, which is a material that’s created during the refining process. It’s this white dust that people woke up to this sort of fine white layer of white sand blanketing their cars and porches and windowsills. You know, people were sort of confused as to what this was, obviously. And some folks started reaching out to the refinery and asking about it. The day after Thanksgiving, the refinery posted on Facebook and said they’d received calls about the dust, but that it was okay. And at least for some people, it just didn’t really think about it again for a while. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so there’s this ash that was raining down from the sky. Residents are told that everything is okay. But then what happens next? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So within a week after that release, the county health department learned about it, actually not from the refinery, but from social media reports and from resident concern. And they alert residents within a week of the spent catalyst being released that it’s actually contains metals. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honestly, I didn’t even know what these metals were. And then you start Googling things and you’re like, Oh my God, this is serious. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aluminum, barium, chromium, exposure to heavy metals like this has been linked to nausea, vomiting, respiratory issues, immune system concern, dysfunction, cancer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The next morning after Thanksgiving, there was an antique dresser in my front yard that I asked my husband and son to move over to the neighbor, and my son swiped his hand across the top and aerosolized all that dust. And I just had this recurring flashback of that that him doing that. And it just freaked me out that he breathed that in, that my husband breathed it in and that I was touching and disturbing that dust without ever knowing that it was there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was also a concern because nobody knew exactly what the extent of the release was still or whether the soil was affected. In March, the Contra Costa County Health Department told residents living near the refinery that they shouldn’t eat any food grown in their gardens just until they were able to determine that the soil was not unsafe. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Geez, March. They mean that’s like months later. I would be pissed if I lived in Martinez, to be honest. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think people were pissed because I think that they felt like they had maybe already been failed by the refinery. Now they’re like, Wait, what? How are we hearing about this potential soil problem this much later? It definitely, I think, was like a tenuous time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You talked about how this refinery has always just kind of been like in Martinez. Like, no one really questioned it. How exactly does that start to change after all this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that there had been over, you know, this 100 year history. There had been times that people were concerned about the safety conditions working in the refinery or where, you know, people spoke up. But I think there was also a sense that the refinery was a responsible partner. And I think that’s sort of been one thing that’s really changing in the immediate aftermath of this bank catalyst release, a group of, you know, really just five, five or six friends who were just trying to figure out what was going on. And this is something that Heidi Taylor talks about. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was a city council meeting after the event in early December, and there were a number of us who went in person and spoke. And outside of that meeting, I approached many people and just thanked them for speaking as they did to me. And a small group formed. And then we kind of found each other online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People messaging back and forth, some who knew each other and some who, you know, just sort of knew each other through social media, asking what they could do and what the next steps were, but also asking how can we feel safe moving forward? How can we feel safe, you know, with our families? I think as that group has sort of grown and gained momentum and as people have become increasingly aware of the ways in which the refinery failed to notify them and sort of this safety record that they feel like is getting worse and worse, that has led to the group growing to now roughly, you know, roughly 100 people. It’s also changed, I think, the way that a lot of residents are interacting with the city and interacting with the refinery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We show up at city council meetings, we show up at the Board of Supervisors, Industrial Safety ordinance meetings. We show up at the Bay Area Air Quality Management District meetings. We are there to speak up and fight for Martinez. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, well, what do the people at Healthy Martinez want? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They have a list of demands that include that Martinez are finding company, installs a wet gas scrubber and make any other necessary improvements in order to reduce daily emissions. Another one is to pay for the installation and maintenance of state of the art independent air monitoring systems within the community. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that we can access that data and know what we’re breathing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another big one is improved public communication and transparency from the refinery and then also for the refining company to reimburse residents, the city and the county for all expenses related to this bank that was released in November. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That shouldn’t fall on us taxpayers. That should fall on the Marcy Martinez refining Company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Going back to the release in November. I mean, are residents safe? Is everything okay now with that incident? Like, have we closed the book on that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t think that they’ll ever completely know, you know, what the effect was in the moment. I’ve talked to residents who said that they have developed asthma after this exposure, but the soil was proven safe. And I think they announced that and do so, at least in that regard. It feels like this episode has, you know, a lid put on it. I think now it’s really more concerns about continuing the releases. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just a few weeks after the county health department declared the soil safe, the refinery released Coke dust into the surrounding neighborhoods, which is this black dust, which is sort of chemically similar to charcoal. They ultimately said, you know, this is not a concern. The chemical composition of that Coke dust is not such that people will have any long term health effects. But there are still questions that remained about, you know, at the time the amount of time it took for the refinery to to report those had happened. They still took a few hours before the county health department heard about it. And so the whole story almost started again where people were like, wait, how is this still happening? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is this like normal? I’m just supposed to accept being dumped on every single day. I will never allow that to be normal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I want to talk about what now? There are these five demands from healthy Martinez. Have any of them been met at this point? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As of now, no. That man’s have not been met. And these investigations are still ongoing. So about, you know, a couple of weeks after that original release, I know the health department recommended the DEA conduct independent investigation of the refinery. I’m not sure exactly what the what the status of that now is. If the DEA is expected to file charges soon or not at all. In May, the FBI and the EPA announced that they were investigating these hazardous chemical releases as well. Those investigations are still ongoing to, you know, overall that the refinery, I do think, has taken a more proactive approach in communicating with the community. They’re definitely not combative. You know, I think that there is this real olive branch that’s being extended, but those words have to be backed up with the actions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what about this city, Will? Has this city done anything to help address residents’ concerns? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Definitely. I think that Mayor Brianne Zorn, the relatively new mayor of Martinez, our sort of entire tenure has been marked in part by this release because she was sworn in not long after it happened. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mayor Brianna Zorn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">From my perspective, the county is holding them accountable for these actions. I think everyone has to understand that being held accountable under our legal system takes a little bit of time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I do think that she’s represented a change in perspective from the city as well in terms of what their expectations from the refinery are. She said that we’re essentially having to reestablish our relationship with the refinery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mayor Brianna Zorn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re all aware, as we, you know, get off the freeway and go to our homes that we live in a refinery town and we’re very aware of how much a shell previously and now MRC has contributed to our community with donations and sponsorships and all of that. And I think that’s why members of the public are so frustrated because of this event. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The city is sort of taking matters into their own hands and just saying we want to know what’s going on there. Regardless of whether the county thinks it’s dangerous or not. We’re the ones who are actually living here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mayor Brianna Zorn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I walked out the next morning and I saw a thin film of dust on my car. And my Cammy is expecting to be notified when things like this happen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, looking forward. Well, what questions are you going to be kind of asking and looking out for as you continue to watch what happens in Martinez? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The biggest things are what are what are the results of these sort of swirling investigations? Are there going to be real penalties or is it going to be a slap on the wrist? And I think that will sort of launch this next phase of the relationship between the town and Martinez Refining Company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We talk about the shift that you see happening in Martinez between the community and its relationship with the refinery. From your reporting, what’s your sense of why that shift is happening? Why now? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There definitely is still an old guard who has lived there for a really long time and sort of has used the refinery. And now I think that they’re also new people who have moved to Martinez in part due to its relative relative affordability, because as this beautiful historic downtown and there’s a lot about Martinez that is really wonderful and has this really rich history and community. This is something that Heidi Taylor talks about. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I spoke to a young woman who was pregnant when they just moved here from Berkeley, and she was lamenting that decision. And I said, no, no, no, don’t lament that decision. Join us and help us make this a healthier, safer community. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People coming there are, you know, not willing to necessarily make that compromise that other people have made long ago and are asking for changes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think we are attracting people who want to stay here, who want to make it better and to hold the refinery accountable and make them do better. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, there are things about Martinez, it sounds like that they feel are worth fighting for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, definitely. I think that’s a good way to put it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, Will. Thank you so much for joining us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, thank you for having me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Will McCarthy, a reporter for the Mercury News. This 40 minute conversation with Will was cut down and edited by producer Maria Esquinca. I pitched and produced this episode and interviewed Heidi Taylor. Allen Montecillo is our senior editor. Thanks also to KQED’s Forum for the tape you heard from Mayor Brianne Zorn. The Bay is a production of member supported KQED in San Francisco. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Talk to you next time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the morning after Thanksgiving last year, Martinez residents woke up and found a strange, white powder coating their neighborhoods. It came from the nearby refinery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Will McCarthy from \u003cem>The Mercury News\u003c/em> tells us what happened next, and how this incident spurred angry neighbors into action for the first time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"card card--enclosed grey\">\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8681595507&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to the Bay. Local News to Keep You Rooted. Martinez is just one of a few cities in the Bay Area that you could call a refinery town. The Martinez Refining Company, owned by PBF Energy, is a huge facility, just a little bigger than Central Park in New York, and it’s been around for over a hundred years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now today, it employs between 600 to 700 hundred people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Will McCarthy, a reporter for the Mercury News. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many of those people live in Martinez and the surrounding communities. So it’s been a part of this community for literally generations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s not just jobs. The refinery sends money to the city’s Chamber of Commerce. You’ll see signs of their brand around town at community events like this annual fun run that the refinery hosts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they’re definitely a presence in the community beyond just being an employer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But that presence is being met with more and more skepticism these days. Residents are raising the alarm after several instances of ash and dust coming out of the refinery and raining down on the city. And they’re starting to push for some change. So today we’re going to talk with Will about a shift that’s happening in Martinez and why more residents want to hold the refinery accountable. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s kind of amazing that it all started on Thanksgiving night. It feels really sort of like poignant in that way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And we were super excited to host all of our friends and family for Thanksgiving dinner. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Heidi Taylor moved to Martinez about a year ago. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And unbeknownst to us, as they were leaving, they were being showered with heavy toxic metals. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After people sort of went to bed after a pair of Thanksgiving dinners. The refinery emitted about 28 tons of metal laden dust called Spent Catalyst, which is a material that’s created during the refining process. It’s this white dust that people woke up to this sort of fine white layer of white sand blanketing their cars and porches and windowsills. You know, people were sort of confused as to what this was, obviously. And some folks started reaching out to the refinery and asking about it. The day after Thanksgiving, the refinery posted on Facebook and said they’d received calls about the dust, but that it was okay. And at least for some people, it just didn’t really think about it again for a while. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so there’s this ash that was raining down from the sky. Residents are told that everything is okay. But then what happens next? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So within a week after that release, the county health department learned about it, actually not from the refinery, but from social media reports and from resident concern. And they alert residents within a week of the spent catalyst being released that it’s actually contains metals. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honestly, I didn’t even know what these metals were. And then you start Googling things and you’re like, Oh my God, this is serious. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aluminum, barium, chromium, exposure to heavy metals like this has been linked to nausea, vomiting, respiratory issues, immune system concern, dysfunction, cancer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The next morning after Thanksgiving, there was an antique dresser in my front yard that I asked my husband and son to move over to the neighbor, and my son swiped his hand across the top and aerosolized all that dust. And I just had this recurring flashback of that that him doing that. And it just freaked me out that he breathed that in, that my husband breathed it in and that I was touching and disturbing that dust without ever knowing that it was there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was also a concern because nobody knew exactly what the extent of the release was still or whether the soil was affected. In March, the Contra Costa County Health Department told residents living near the refinery that they shouldn’t eat any food grown in their gardens just until they were able to determine that the soil was not unsafe. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Geez, March. They mean that’s like months later. I would be pissed if I lived in Martinez, to be honest. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think people were pissed because I think that they felt like they had maybe already been failed by the refinery. Now they’re like, Wait, what? How are we hearing about this potential soil problem this much later? It definitely, I think, was like a tenuous time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You talked about how this refinery has always just kind of been like in Martinez. Like, no one really questioned it. How exactly does that start to change after all this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that there had been over, you know, this 100 year history. There had been times that people were concerned about the safety conditions working in the refinery or where, you know, people spoke up. But I think there was also a sense that the refinery was a responsible partner. And I think that’s sort of been one thing that’s really changing in the immediate aftermath of this bank catalyst release, a group of, you know, really just five, five or six friends who were just trying to figure out what was going on. And this is something that Heidi Taylor talks about. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was a city council meeting after the event in early December, and there were a number of us who went in person and spoke. And outside of that meeting, I approached many people and just thanked them for speaking as they did to me. And a small group formed. And then we kind of found each other online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People messaging back and forth, some who knew each other and some who, you know, just sort of knew each other through social media, asking what they could do and what the next steps were, but also asking how can we feel safe moving forward? How can we feel safe, you know, with our families? I think as that group has sort of grown and gained momentum and as people have become increasingly aware of the ways in which the refinery failed to notify them and sort of this safety record that they feel like is getting worse and worse, that has led to the group growing to now roughly, you know, roughly 100 people. It’s also changed, I think, the way that a lot of residents are interacting with the city and interacting with the refinery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We show up at city council meetings, we show up at the Board of Supervisors, Industrial Safety ordinance meetings. We show up at the Bay Area Air Quality Management District meetings. We are there to speak up and fight for Martinez. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, well, what do the people at Healthy Martinez want? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They have a list of demands that include that Martinez are finding company, installs a wet gas scrubber and make any other necessary improvements in order to reduce daily emissions. Another one is to pay for the installation and maintenance of state of the art independent air monitoring systems within the community. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that we can access that data and know what we’re breathing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another big one is improved public communication and transparency from the refinery and then also for the refining company to reimburse residents, the city and the county for all expenses related to this bank that was released in November. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That shouldn’t fall on us taxpayers. That should fall on the Marcy Martinez refining Company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Going back to the release in November. I mean, are residents safe? Is everything okay now with that incident? Like, have we closed the book on that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t think that they’ll ever completely know, you know, what the effect was in the moment. I’ve talked to residents who said that they have developed asthma after this exposure, but the soil was proven safe. And I think they announced that and do so, at least in that regard. It feels like this episode has, you know, a lid put on it. I think now it’s really more concerns about continuing the releases. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just a few weeks after the county health department declared the soil safe, the refinery released Coke dust into the surrounding neighborhoods, which is this black dust, which is sort of chemically similar to charcoal. They ultimately said, you know, this is not a concern. The chemical composition of that Coke dust is not such that people will have any long term health effects. But there are still questions that remained about, you know, at the time the amount of time it took for the refinery to to report those had happened. They still took a few hours before the county health department heard about it. And so the whole story almost started again where people were like, wait, how is this still happening? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is this like normal? I’m just supposed to accept being dumped on every single day. I will never allow that to be normal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I want to talk about what now? There are these five demands from healthy Martinez. Have any of them been met at this point? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As of now, no. That man’s have not been met. And these investigations are still ongoing. So about, you know, a couple of weeks after that original release, I know the health department recommended the DEA conduct independent investigation of the refinery. I’m not sure exactly what the what the status of that now is. If the DEA is expected to file charges soon or not at all. In May, the FBI and the EPA announced that they were investigating these hazardous chemical releases as well. Those investigations are still ongoing to, you know, overall that the refinery, I do think, has taken a more proactive approach in communicating with the community. They’re definitely not combative. You know, I think that there is this real olive branch that’s being extended, but those words have to be backed up with the actions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what about this city, Will? Has this city done anything to help address residents’ concerns? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Definitely. I think that Mayor Brianne Zorn, the relatively new mayor of Martinez, our sort of entire tenure has been marked in part by this release because she was sworn in not long after it happened. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mayor Brianna Zorn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">From my perspective, the county is holding them accountable for these actions. I think everyone has to understand that being held accountable under our legal system takes a little bit of time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I do think that she’s represented a change in perspective from the city as well in terms of what their expectations from the refinery are. She said that we’re essentially having to reestablish our relationship with the refinery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mayor Brianna Zorn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re all aware, as we, you know, get off the freeway and go to our homes that we live in a refinery town and we’re very aware of how much a shell previously and now MRC has contributed to our community with donations and sponsorships and all of that. And I think that’s why members of the public are so frustrated because of this event. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The city is sort of taking matters into their own hands and just saying we want to know what’s going on there. Regardless of whether the county thinks it’s dangerous or not. We’re the ones who are actually living here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mayor Brianna Zorn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I walked out the next morning and I saw a thin film of dust on my car. And my Cammy is expecting to be notified when things like this happen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, looking forward. Well, what questions are you going to be kind of asking and looking out for as you continue to watch what happens in Martinez? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The biggest things are what are what are the results of these sort of swirling investigations? Are there going to be real penalties or is it going to be a slap on the wrist? And I think that will sort of launch this next phase of the relationship between the town and Martinez Refining Company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We talk about the shift that you see happening in Martinez between the community and its relationship with the refinery. From your reporting, what’s your sense of why that shift is happening? Why now? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There definitely is still an old guard who has lived there for a really long time and sort of has used the refinery. And now I think that they’re also new people who have moved to Martinez in part due to its relative relative affordability, because as this beautiful historic downtown and there’s a lot about Martinez that is really wonderful and has this really rich history and community. This is something that Heidi Taylor talks about. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I spoke to a young woman who was pregnant when they just moved here from Berkeley, and she was lamenting that decision. And I said, no, no, no, don’t lament that decision. Join us and help us make this a healthier, safer community. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People coming there are, you know, not willing to necessarily make that compromise that other people have made long ago and are asking for changes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heidi Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think we are attracting people who want to stay here, who want to make it better and to hold the refinery accountable and make them do better. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, there are things about Martinez, it sounds like that they feel are worth fighting for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, definitely. I think that’s a good way to put it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, Will. Thank you so much for joining us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will McCarthy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, thank you for having me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Will McCarthy, a reporter for the Mercury News. This 40 minute conversation with Will was cut down and edited by producer Maria Esquinca. I pitched and produced this episode and interviewed Heidi Taylor. Allen Montecillo is our senior editor. Thanks also to KQED’s Forum for the tape you heard from Mayor Brianne Zorn. The Bay is a production of member supported KQED in San Francisco. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Talk to you next time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "why-californias-salmon-season-was-canceled",
"title": "Why California’s Salmon Season Was Canceled",
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"headTitle": "Why California’s Salmon Season Was Canceled | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For the first time since 2009, there is no salmon fishing season in California. This decision has hit fishers, coastal towns, and Native communities hard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it also wasn’t inevitable. KQED climate and science reporter Danielle Venton explains how the state’s choices around water management played a major role.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"card card--enclosed grey\">\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC1724950656&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to The Bay. Local News to keep you rooted. Something is missing from the ocean this summer as a result of declining populations. Fisheries regulators have made a drastic decision to cancel salmon fishing season.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sarah Bates: \u003c/strong>There’s a huge, conspicuous absence not only on the barbecue. There’s an absence in my fish hold. There’s an absence on the docks in San Francisco. There’s an absence in our markets, because there’s no fish in the ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Commercial fishers who rely on the salmon to make their living are struggling to get by.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>John McManus: \u003c/strong>Some people will be able to make a little bit of money targeting other species, but they’re going to lose a significant portion of their annual income.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And it’s not just commercial fishers who are feeling this. It’s the entire ecosystem of the state and California’s native tribes who’ve relied on the health of the salmon for generations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jason Jackson-Reed: \u003c/strong>We believe as Hupa peopl, that our social well-being and our physical our cultural, our spiritual well-being, it all runs parallel to the salmon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re going to talk with KQED reporter Danielle Vinton about what happened to the salmon and how decisions by the state helped bring us here. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>I come from a family of fisher folk. I think I knew how to Filet-O-Fish before I knew how to ride a bike.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Danielle Venton is a science and climate reporter for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>My dad was a big recreational fisherman and even tried commercial fishing for one year. When my cousin got married for the dinner, my dad and uncle and cousins would just go out day after day, catching their limit until we had enough salmon to barbecue for 200 people. You know, it’s a really cool kind of local thing, like a really cool thing to do, but that wouldn’t be possible this year. Obviously.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Let’s dive into it, Danielle. What exactly, I guess, is the state of the salmon season this year?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>Well, unfortunately, there is no salmon season. Usually the commercial season runs from May to October, so we should be right in the middle of it. Recreational season starts a little earlier than that and both are closed this year. There is no locally fresh caught salmon to be had. This is an industry that is valued at around $500 million. It’s also restaurants, tackle shops, private fishing guides, campgrounds. You know, there’s this whole tourism industry that is centered around California’s salmon season, and that’s dried up this year. The rules for tribal people are different because they’re different nations. So there is some tribal take allowed in rivers, but they are very much affected when salmon numbers are in decline. This is very abnormal. And the last time something like this happened was in 2008 and nine, and I don’t believe it had ever happened before that. Part of that reason is that we have rules and policies that are supposed to prevent exactly this kind of thing. I mean, this is a failure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Okay, before we get into the policy stuff, I want to understand the basics when it comes to salmon. How would you describe the life cycle of these fish? Like what is supposed to happen?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>Salmon are these strange kind of semi magical creatures. Salman are born in natal rivers and streams and in nests called reds. They hatch and they begin migrating downstream, even though they’ve been spent their entire life in a freshwater habitat. They’re able to change and live in a saltwater habitat. And they feed out in the ocean and fatten up their food for whales and all of us. And then they reach maturity and they feel the call of home and they return to the same rivers and streams that they were born in. Swim back up there and they spawn. The female like wiggles around in the gravel, builds a nest, lays her eggs. Male fish fertilize them, and then their bodies give out and they then feed their natural surroundings. You know, this is very important way where nutrients get transferred from the ocean back up into the streams. These are fish that kind of define an ecosystem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And here’s where humans come in. We decide how much water from our dams should go to the rivers where the seminar versus to irrigators like farms and agriculture. So what happened this time? Well, it starts a few years ago during a bad drought year when salmon didn’t get the water they needed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>The fish that should be in the ocean right now waiting to be caught in on our dinner plate were born in their birth streams back in the fall of 2020. 2020 was a drought year. 2019 was a really wet year. And so water managers had delivered a lot of water to irrigators in 2019. They didn’t save it in reservoirs and as we went into 2020, there wasn’t a lot of water in the dams. There was a case of kind of climate whiplash and that water is needed to be released into the river to maintain kind of minimum flows like the amount of water that’s flowing down and to maintain temperatures. These fish like cool, clean flowing water. And so as we went into 2020, there wasn’t a lot of water to be released into these dams and some of the nests and that were born that year. They dried up and a lot of the fish that were born kind of cooked to death because conditions were just so warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s a chilling, chilling image, like these eggs being cooked. Was this inevitable? I mean, climate change is happening, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>So climate change is definitely happening and puts more stress on the rivers. But also, California has made a lot of policy decisions that pushed us in this direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jon Rosenfield \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s inextricably linked to state and federal water policies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>So, someone who pays really close attention to this is Jon Rosenfield, and he’s the senior scientist with the San Francisco Baykeeper. He points to inaction on part of the state as leading to this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jon Rosenfield \u003c/strong>We have increasingly good scientific evidence that that journey, the success of that journey, is really dependent on the flow and in rivers when the fish are trying to migrate. The lower the flow, the less they survive. And that flow in the rivers is also determined by state and federal water management policies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>So in California, we have these kind of sets of rules that govern how water should work in the state. And what is supposed to happen is that they are meant to be reevaluated and updated if needed every three years. In reality, the plan controlling what happens in the Sacramento Delta. It dates from 1995. It’s been updated here and there, but it is really awaiting a big overhaul. In 2018, the Jerry Brown administration tried to update part of those rules. He allowed his water agency to kind of take, you know, exert some control in this area. They were coming up with a new plan to increase the flows and to really improve conditions in those rivers. It was going to mean less water for irrigators. Irrigators were really upset. But it was seen as a plan that was very effective for improving ecosystem health and, you know, advocating on behalf of the fish and on behalf of communities that live along these rivers that kind of want to enjoy clean, flowing water. But 2018 was also the year that Governor Newsom was elected. And before they could go into effect, he basically put a chill on that and said, we’re just going to pause and we’re not going to do that right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jon Rosenfield \u003c/strong>Governor Newsom and throughout his administration, starting on election night, has actively blocked update of those water quality standards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Why has governor, after governor failed to update these rules, which seem really important, especially when water just increasingly seems to be this sort of like finite resource and is we have to make decisions about where that water goes, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>I mean, this is not a politically winning issue. It’s very difficult. You have different sides that have different values. It’s a hard it’s a hard issue. I mean, people talk about, you know, these California water wars. This is something that’s been going on for decades and it’s still going on. And, you know, to some people’s mind, they just don’t feel winnable. I mean, agriculture is a very big political player in our state, and a lot of money can be made in agriculture. They have very old claims on water and there is a lot of political power behind, you know, big agribusiness interests. And Governor, after governor and you know, many people believe Newsom in particular is very loathe to do anything to upset them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Governor Newsom has gotten a lot of heat for this. How has he responded to allegations that their policy decisions are to blame for what’s happened to the salmon this year?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>Governor Newsom has pushed away the idea of any responsibility for this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom: \u003c/strong>I take this issue seriously. I’ll take a backseat to no governor in the United States of America in terms of my environmental stewardship and passion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>He was asked about this at a press conference this spring. And, you know, his response was pretty striking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom: \u003c/strong>What what occurs? The salmon that happened three years ago. So anyone who suggests otherwise is being purposely misleading or a knowingly misleading.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>I basically I couldn’t possibly have had any effect on that. You know, and he he has been governor for four and a half years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It seems like everyone affected agrees that something went wrong. And the governor clearly thinks he has nothing to do with it. But, I mean, going back to these rules, Danielle, they haven’t been updated in decades. So what is the state’s vision here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>So the state has put its emphasis behind what are called voluntary agreements, and these are non regulatory frameworks. The state says that these are voluntary agreements are a better approach because if everyone can kind of get the part that they really care about, then maybe we can avoid lawsuits. That’s part of why these plans are so hard to update because they are tied up in litigation for years and years and years and years. Tribes and conservation groups and environmental justice groups say that these agreements are completely unacceptable because they cut them out of the decision making process when the real important decisions are being made and that the state has only asked for feedback on their voluntary agreements after, you know, they were largely hashed out. And they say that’s totally unacceptable. And the big emphasis of these voluntary agreements are restoring habitat, which is great, but it seems a big emphasis of these agreements is not putting more water in the rivers and allowing more water to flow. And, you know, fish can have all the habitat they want, but if there’s not water in the river, they’re not going to make it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It sounds like you’re saying it’s just kind of impossible at this point to really think that we can satisfy everyone when it comes to water, when there isn’t enough of it, and someone has to make that hard decision.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>Yeah, but I would say like there is definitely enough water for everyone to have drinking water for everyone to wash their dishes and have showers and stuff. I mean, the point where this gets really difficult is like, can we grow hundreds of thousands of acres of nut trees that are exported around the world and that are extremely profitable and are extremely thirsty crops? We’re not talking about subsistence agriculture here. We’re not talking about growing the food that we’re going to survive on. You know, to hear some people at the state level talk, you would think that like if we all just sit together at the same table and put our heads together and hash it out, we can come up with some compromise where everyone can get their needs and wants met. And I’m not sure that that’s realistic, especially in difficult dry years if salmon are going to get the amount of water that they need to support them. We are not also going to be able to support the number of acres that are currently planted. Something is going to give.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, what’s next here, Danielle? Like, what are these communities, these fissures, these tribes? What are they pushing for now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>They’re pushing for the state to take more action. They’re pushing for a seat at the table. I recently attended a rally in Sacramento on the Capitol steps where, you know, this broad coalition came together to try to get the attention of lawmakers. There’s also a group that feels so neglected by the state that they are petitioning the Environmental Protection Agents Agency, a federal agency, to step in and enforce the Clean Water Act. They say that’s how dire it is and that the state is not taking care of their needs and that that is a violation of their civil rights. And the last I heard, the EPA was kind of looking at this issue and deciding if they had the authority to step in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jason Jackson-Reed: \u003c/strong>And if the salmon aren’t doing good, we’re not doing good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>So I spoke with a man, Jason Jackson-Reed, who’s a member of the Hoopa Valley Tribe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jason Jackson-Reed: \u003c/strong>Our physical, our cultural, our spiritual well-being, it all runs parallel to the salmon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>And he was there at the rally with his one year, one month old son cradled in a carrier, very much thinking about the next generation. He said that this story is not going to change until native people start having a role in making management decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jason Jackson-Reed: \u003c/strong>It’s not going to change until, you know, the natives start writing the narrative and we start reading, digitizing, you know, a management.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ve been talking about salmon. And I think it’s fair to say that most people interact with salmon when they eat it. But beyond that, why should we all have a stake in having a healthy salmon season.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>When salmon are doing well, the environment is doing well, and that’s an environment that supports us all and that we all enjoy. It is part of the natural heritage of the state. And supporting salmon also supports the native people who were the original caretakers of this land. A lot of people talk about this issue in these very simple terms, this very simple dichotomy of fish versus farms. And of course, we support farms and we need food. But salmon are also food, and a healthy salmon run means a healthy environment. Salmon. And to simplify it. Almond trees are not equivalent species. You know, one is integral to California environment, the people of California. And one is an export crop that is profitable and that is optional to grow. Each of us can decide where our values lie within that. But, you know, for thinking about the long term future, our life is getting better. Our children’s life is going to be better if we do take care of rivers and streams and the health of our salmon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Danielle, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for having me, Ericka.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Governor Newsom has requested federal disaster relief money for commercial fishers impacted by the canceled salmon season. Danielle says that money is believed to be on its way, but it’s not here yet. Meanwhile, Danielle says fishers that she’s spoken with have told her they’d much rather fish than have to rely on these funds. That was Danielle Venton, a science and climate reporter for KQED. At the top of this episode, you also heard from Sarah Bates, a commercial fisher. John McManus with the Golden State Salmon Association. And Jason Jackson Reed, a member of the Hoopa Valley Tribe. This 45-minute conversation with Danielle was cut down and edited by our senior editor, Alan Montecillo. Maria Esquinca is our producer. She scored this episode and added all the tape. The rest of our team here at KQED includes Jen Chien. Our director of podcasts, Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager. César Saldaña, our podcast engagement producer. And Holly Kernan, our chief content officer. The Bay is a production of a member supported KQED in San Francisco. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara. Thank you so much for listening. From all of us here at The Bay, Peace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\u003c/div>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Why California’s Salmon Season Was Canceled | KQED",
"description": "View the full episode transcript. For the first time since 2009, there is no salmon fishing season in California. This decision has hit fishers, coastal towns, and Native communities hard. But it also wasn’t inevitable. KQED climate and science reporter Danielle Venton explains how the state’s choices around water management played a major role. Episode Transcript This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors. Ericka Cruz Guevarra: I'm Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to The Bay. Local News to keep you rooted. Something is missing from the ocean this summer as a result",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For the first time since 2009, there is no salmon fishing season in California. This decision has hit fishers, coastal towns, and Native communities hard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it also wasn’t inevitable. KQED climate and science reporter Danielle Venton explains how the state’s choices around water management played a major role.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"card card--enclosed grey\">\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC1724950656&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to The Bay. Local News to keep you rooted. Something is missing from the ocean this summer as a result of declining populations. Fisheries regulators have made a drastic decision to cancel salmon fishing season.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sarah Bates: \u003c/strong>There’s a huge, conspicuous absence not only on the barbecue. There’s an absence in my fish hold. There’s an absence on the docks in San Francisco. There’s an absence in our markets, because there’s no fish in the ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Commercial fishers who rely on the salmon to make their living are struggling to get by.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>John McManus: \u003c/strong>Some people will be able to make a little bit of money targeting other species, but they’re going to lose a significant portion of their annual income.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And it’s not just commercial fishers who are feeling this. It’s the entire ecosystem of the state and California’s native tribes who’ve relied on the health of the salmon for generations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jason Jackson-Reed: \u003c/strong>We believe as Hupa peopl, that our social well-being and our physical our cultural, our spiritual well-being, it all runs parallel to the salmon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re going to talk with KQED reporter Danielle Vinton about what happened to the salmon and how decisions by the state helped bring us here. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>I come from a family of fisher folk. I think I knew how to Filet-O-Fish before I knew how to ride a bike.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Danielle Venton is a science and climate reporter for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>My dad was a big recreational fisherman and even tried commercial fishing for one year. When my cousin got married for the dinner, my dad and uncle and cousins would just go out day after day, catching their limit until we had enough salmon to barbecue for 200 people. You know, it’s a really cool kind of local thing, like a really cool thing to do, but that wouldn’t be possible this year. Obviously.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Let’s dive into it, Danielle. What exactly, I guess, is the state of the salmon season this year?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>Well, unfortunately, there is no salmon season. Usually the commercial season runs from May to October, so we should be right in the middle of it. Recreational season starts a little earlier than that and both are closed this year. There is no locally fresh caught salmon to be had. This is an industry that is valued at around $500 million. It’s also restaurants, tackle shops, private fishing guides, campgrounds. You know, there’s this whole tourism industry that is centered around California’s salmon season, and that’s dried up this year. The rules for tribal people are different because they’re different nations. So there is some tribal take allowed in rivers, but they are very much affected when salmon numbers are in decline. This is very abnormal. And the last time something like this happened was in 2008 and nine, and I don’t believe it had ever happened before that. Part of that reason is that we have rules and policies that are supposed to prevent exactly this kind of thing. I mean, this is a failure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Okay, before we get into the policy stuff, I want to understand the basics when it comes to salmon. How would you describe the life cycle of these fish? Like what is supposed to happen?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>Salmon are these strange kind of semi magical creatures. Salman are born in natal rivers and streams and in nests called reds. They hatch and they begin migrating downstream, even though they’ve been spent their entire life in a freshwater habitat. They’re able to change and live in a saltwater habitat. And they feed out in the ocean and fatten up their food for whales and all of us. And then they reach maturity and they feel the call of home and they return to the same rivers and streams that they were born in. Swim back up there and they spawn. The female like wiggles around in the gravel, builds a nest, lays her eggs. Male fish fertilize them, and then their bodies give out and they then feed their natural surroundings. You know, this is very important way where nutrients get transferred from the ocean back up into the streams. These are fish that kind of define an ecosystem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And here’s where humans come in. We decide how much water from our dams should go to the rivers where the seminar versus to irrigators like farms and agriculture. So what happened this time? Well, it starts a few years ago during a bad drought year when salmon didn’t get the water they needed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>The fish that should be in the ocean right now waiting to be caught in on our dinner plate were born in their birth streams back in the fall of 2020. 2020 was a drought year. 2019 was a really wet year. And so water managers had delivered a lot of water to irrigators in 2019. They didn’t save it in reservoirs and as we went into 2020, there wasn’t a lot of water in the dams. There was a case of kind of climate whiplash and that water is needed to be released into the river to maintain kind of minimum flows like the amount of water that’s flowing down and to maintain temperatures. These fish like cool, clean flowing water. And so as we went into 2020, there wasn’t a lot of water to be released into these dams and some of the nests and that were born that year. They dried up and a lot of the fish that were born kind of cooked to death because conditions were just so warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s a chilling, chilling image, like these eggs being cooked. Was this inevitable? I mean, climate change is happening, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>So climate change is definitely happening and puts more stress on the rivers. But also, California has made a lot of policy decisions that pushed us in this direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jon Rosenfield \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s inextricably linked to state and federal water policies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>So, someone who pays really close attention to this is Jon Rosenfield, and he’s the senior scientist with the San Francisco Baykeeper. He points to inaction on part of the state as leading to this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jon Rosenfield \u003c/strong>We have increasingly good scientific evidence that that journey, the success of that journey, is really dependent on the flow and in rivers when the fish are trying to migrate. The lower the flow, the less they survive. And that flow in the rivers is also determined by state and federal water management policies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>So in California, we have these kind of sets of rules that govern how water should work in the state. And what is supposed to happen is that they are meant to be reevaluated and updated if needed every three years. In reality, the plan controlling what happens in the Sacramento Delta. It dates from 1995. It’s been updated here and there, but it is really awaiting a big overhaul. In 2018, the Jerry Brown administration tried to update part of those rules. He allowed his water agency to kind of take, you know, exert some control in this area. They were coming up with a new plan to increase the flows and to really improve conditions in those rivers. It was going to mean less water for irrigators. Irrigators were really upset. But it was seen as a plan that was very effective for improving ecosystem health and, you know, advocating on behalf of the fish and on behalf of communities that live along these rivers that kind of want to enjoy clean, flowing water. But 2018 was also the year that Governor Newsom was elected. And before they could go into effect, he basically put a chill on that and said, we’re just going to pause and we’re not going to do that right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jon Rosenfield \u003c/strong>Governor Newsom and throughout his administration, starting on election night, has actively blocked update of those water quality standards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Why has governor, after governor failed to update these rules, which seem really important, especially when water just increasingly seems to be this sort of like finite resource and is we have to make decisions about where that water goes, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>I mean, this is not a politically winning issue. It’s very difficult. You have different sides that have different values. It’s a hard it’s a hard issue. I mean, people talk about, you know, these California water wars. This is something that’s been going on for decades and it’s still going on. And, you know, to some people’s mind, they just don’t feel winnable. I mean, agriculture is a very big political player in our state, and a lot of money can be made in agriculture. They have very old claims on water and there is a lot of political power behind, you know, big agribusiness interests. And Governor, after governor and you know, many people believe Newsom in particular is very loathe to do anything to upset them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Governor Newsom has gotten a lot of heat for this. How has he responded to allegations that their policy decisions are to blame for what’s happened to the salmon this year?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>Governor Newsom has pushed away the idea of any responsibility for this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom: \u003c/strong>I take this issue seriously. I’ll take a backseat to no governor in the United States of America in terms of my environmental stewardship and passion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>He was asked about this at a press conference this spring. And, you know, his response was pretty striking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom: \u003c/strong>What what occurs? The salmon that happened three years ago. So anyone who suggests otherwise is being purposely misleading or a knowingly misleading.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>I basically I couldn’t possibly have had any effect on that. You know, and he he has been governor for four and a half years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It seems like everyone affected agrees that something went wrong. And the governor clearly thinks he has nothing to do with it. But, I mean, going back to these rules, Danielle, they haven’t been updated in decades. So what is the state’s vision here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>So the state has put its emphasis behind what are called voluntary agreements, and these are non regulatory frameworks. The state says that these are voluntary agreements are a better approach because if everyone can kind of get the part that they really care about, then maybe we can avoid lawsuits. That’s part of why these plans are so hard to update because they are tied up in litigation for years and years and years and years. Tribes and conservation groups and environmental justice groups say that these agreements are completely unacceptable because they cut them out of the decision making process when the real important decisions are being made and that the state has only asked for feedback on their voluntary agreements after, you know, they were largely hashed out. And they say that’s totally unacceptable. And the big emphasis of these voluntary agreements are restoring habitat, which is great, but it seems a big emphasis of these agreements is not putting more water in the rivers and allowing more water to flow. And, you know, fish can have all the habitat they want, but if there’s not water in the river, they’re not going to make it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It sounds like you’re saying it’s just kind of impossible at this point to really think that we can satisfy everyone when it comes to water, when there isn’t enough of it, and someone has to make that hard decision.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>Yeah, but I would say like there is definitely enough water for everyone to have drinking water for everyone to wash their dishes and have showers and stuff. I mean, the point where this gets really difficult is like, can we grow hundreds of thousands of acres of nut trees that are exported around the world and that are extremely profitable and are extremely thirsty crops? We’re not talking about subsistence agriculture here. We’re not talking about growing the food that we’re going to survive on. You know, to hear some people at the state level talk, you would think that like if we all just sit together at the same table and put our heads together and hash it out, we can come up with some compromise where everyone can get their needs and wants met. And I’m not sure that that’s realistic, especially in difficult dry years if salmon are going to get the amount of water that they need to support them. We are not also going to be able to support the number of acres that are currently planted. Something is going to give.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, what’s next here, Danielle? Like, what are these communities, these fissures, these tribes? What are they pushing for now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>They’re pushing for the state to take more action. They’re pushing for a seat at the table. I recently attended a rally in Sacramento on the Capitol steps where, you know, this broad coalition came together to try to get the attention of lawmakers. There’s also a group that feels so neglected by the state that they are petitioning the Environmental Protection Agents Agency, a federal agency, to step in and enforce the Clean Water Act. They say that’s how dire it is and that the state is not taking care of their needs and that that is a violation of their civil rights. And the last I heard, the EPA was kind of looking at this issue and deciding if they had the authority to step in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jason Jackson-Reed: \u003c/strong>And if the salmon aren’t doing good, we’re not doing good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>So I spoke with a man, Jason Jackson-Reed, who’s a member of the Hoopa Valley Tribe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jason Jackson-Reed: \u003c/strong>Our physical, our cultural, our spiritual well-being, it all runs parallel to the salmon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>And he was there at the rally with his one year, one month old son cradled in a carrier, very much thinking about the next generation. He said that this story is not going to change until native people start having a role in making management decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jason Jackson-Reed: \u003c/strong>It’s not going to change until, you know, the natives start writing the narrative and we start reading, digitizing, you know, a management.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ve been talking about salmon. And I think it’s fair to say that most people interact with salmon when they eat it. But beyond that, why should we all have a stake in having a healthy salmon season.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>When salmon are doing well, the environment is doing well, and that’s an environment that supports us all and that we all enjoy. It is part of the natural heritage of the state. And supporting salmon also supports the native people who were the original caretakers of this land. A lot of people talk about this issue in these very simple terms, this very simple dichotomy of fish versus farms. And of course, we support farms and we need food. But salmon are also food, and a healthy salmon run means a healthy environment. Salmon. And to simplify it. Almond trees are not equivalent species. You know, one is integral to California environment, the people of California. And one is an export crop that is profitable and that is optional to grow. Each of us can decide where our values lie within that. But, you know, for thinking about the long term future, our life is getting better. Our children’s life is going to be better if we do take care of rivers and streams and the health of our salmon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Danielle, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for having me, Ericka.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Governor Newsom has requested federal disaster relief money for commercial fishers impacted by the canceled salmon season. Danielle says that money is believed to be on its way, but it’s not here yet. Meanwhile, Danielle says fishers that she’s spoken with have told her they’d much rather fish than have to rely on these funds. That was Danielle Venton, a science and climate reporter for KQED. At the top of this episode, you also heard from Sarah Bates, a commercial fisher. John McManus with the Golden State Salmon Association. And Jason Jackson Reed, a member of the Hoopa Valley Tribe. This 45-minute conversation with Danielle was cut down and edited by our senior editor, Alan Montecillo. Maria Esquinca is our producer. She scored this episode and added all the tape. The rest of our team here at KQED includes Jen Chien. Our director of podcasts, Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager. César Saldaña, our podcast engagement producer. And Holly Kernan, our chief content officer. The Bay is a production of a member supported KQED in San Francisco. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara. Thank you so much for listening. From all of us here at The Bay, Peace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\u003c/div>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "A Campaign to Recall Alameda County’s Progressive DA Kicks Off",
"headTitle": "A Campaign to Recall Alameda County’s Progressive DA Kicks Off | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A committee called Save Alameda For Everyone (SAFE) has filed documents for a recall campaign against progressive Alameda County District Attorney Pamela Price. KQED’s \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/FitzTheReporter\">Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez\u003c/a> explains why this is happening — and whether DA Price could face the same fate as Chesa Boudin did in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC9916568677\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And we’re back to regularly scheduled programing, folks. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. And welcome back to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. Alameda County made history last year when voters elected a progressive district attorney named Pamela Price. Price was a civil rights lawyer who grew up in the foster care and juvenile justice system, and she promised a different approach to criminal justice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>When we invest in community support for people with mental illness, when we invest in services and opportunities for young people, when we invest in our community, that’s when we’ll see crime go down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Now, less than a year into her term, fears about gun violence, robberies and car break ins are fueling an effort to boot race out of office and prices in a tough spot. Because while the investments she wants to make take time to trickle down into the community, there are people who want something to be done about the crimes happening right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>The opponents of progressive policies have very strong emotional arguments they can make by pointing to these cases where, you know, perhaps some tragedy happened and there wasn’t a as harsh a sentence as maybe a victim would prefer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So, how bad is crime in Alameda County, really? And what does Pamela Price say she’s going to do with it? All that and more on the recall right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>The recall against most delays in the state has been predicated on the idea that crime is rising and that progressive policies are contributing to rising crime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez is a politics and government reporter for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>It’s a bit of a messy argument, though, because crime has risen and dropped in trends that we see happening across the country. Sometimes, as some of our colleagues here actually have shown, the crime rates are actually higher in places with conservative district attorneys. But there is a climate of fear around crime. And so what we’re seeing is the earliest hints of a recall, a recall that has been established as a campaign committee, which means it’s taking the legal steps to establish itself, which means it’s very early. We don’t know how much money they’re going to raise or can raise or how effective they’ll be. But there’s a recall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Who is behind this recall effort in Alameda County to get Pamela Price: out of office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>But I want to temper first by saying until we see where the money is coming from. We won’t have a full picture of all of who is behind this recall effort. But so far, the names that were registered on the documents with the Albany County Elections office are Carl Chan, who is a Oakland Chinatown Chamber of Commerce leader; Phillip Dreyfus, who donated $10,000 to the effort to remove former San Francisco district attorney Chesa Boudin; and Brenda Grisham. She’s the principal officer of the recall effort against Pamela Price, and Grisham is a victims rights advocate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I know Brenda is actually someone who’s personally affected by crime in Alameda County. Can you tell me a little bit more about her background?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Ms. grisham is from East Oakland. Her son, Christopher, was shot and killed in 2010.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>And this year, it will make 13 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>And they never caught the person who shot and killed her son. But having lost her son so early, she took that pain and galvanized it into action. And she formed a foundation named after her son, Christopher Lavelle Jones Foundation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>We just recently celebrated the 12 year anniversary of the foundation because it took me like a year to figure out how I wanted to keep Christopher’s name alive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>She’s essentially taken that experience and used it to help others who went through what she did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>Here in our local area. I’ve helped with getting some policies and procedures to help with the victims of crime, have helped in getting the victims of crime money increased so that families can, you know, really take care of the business after the loss of a loved one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>What is her main argument for recalling price? Why does she want to be involved in this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>So they have not made any formal announcements yet. And when I talked to Ms.. Grisham, she said that she would not speak on behalf of the recall during our interview. But what she said personally, she doesn’t believe that folks should see lighter sentences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>Oh, sentencing is definitely an issue. Yes. We got to get to a common ground. I don’t see that’s going to happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>She thinks that progressive DA’s have made too many arguments about why perpetrators of crime do what they do. Trying to analyze too much, the systems that push them into that crime and saying, you know what? If you decided to do that crime, that’s made the choice, you’re done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>The idea of who the victim is is what the problem is. The people that have been traumatized by the actual act are the victims.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>You know, Ms.. Grisham has personal experience with, too. She related to me an experience where she brought some of her fellow members from her foundation who are all victims or survivors of crime, to speak to Pamela Price. And she described a very tense situation where perhaps the price was perhaps not as politic with them as she could have been, in fact, to hear Grisham tell it. D.A. Price was defensive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>She never talked to them as they were victims. She never said, I’m sorry for your loss. None of that. She had a condescending tone that I don’t like. When you’re being professional, you don’t talk to people like they are, but they feel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And Joey know that there’s usually like this ramp up that happens to a recall campaign that really builds from stories or cases that people end up really pointing to as examples and rationale for recalling someone in office. Right. What are some of the important cases in Alameda County that are really fueling this effort to recall Pamela Price?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Just to take a step back from this, the opponents of progressive policies have very strong emotional arguments they can make by pointing to these cases where some tragedy happened and there wasn’t a as harsh a sentence as maybe a victim would prefer. And so we’re seeing this argument being made in the case of Jasper Wu, a toddler who was shot and killed in 2021 while in a car with his mother heading home to Fremont from San Francisco. Jasper was sadly caught up in gunshots between adult men who were shooting at one another. There are two men who are defendants in the in the case of the death of young Jasper, Wu, Ivory Bivins and Trevor GREENE were both 24 and 22, respectively. And essentially, Pamela Price has decided not to pursue what we call special circumstances enhancements with those two men.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Special circumstances are basically an add on charge that a d.a. Can apply that can lead to much harsher punishments for people accused of murder. That could mean life in prison without parole or even the death penalty for the accused. Pamela Price has vowed to stop pursuing special circumstances, citing numbers that show that black defendants are disproportionately more likely to face these charges. But some residents strongly oppose this idea, especially when it comes to high profile crimes where people really want to see justice come down hard, like in the case of Jasper Woo’s death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>You know, it touches on a few different things in the community, right? Jasper Woo is an Asian child, so it touches on the hearts of those who have been really affected by the anti-Asian hate we’ve seen since the rise of the pandemic. It also touches on this fear of rising crime and this idea of lawlessness. It’s kind of a nexus case of all of these fears that are really coming together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>But to be clear and just to clarify, these two men are still facing charges, just not these sort of special circumstances enhancement that people, it sounds like, are really want to see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Yeah, if convicted, Bivins is facing 265 years to life in prison. Green faces 175 years to life in prison. These men are facing incredibly steep charges for what they did. The only difference here is there is some possibility of parole.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, I want to talk, Joe, more about this feeling that crime is up and these fears around crime, because it does sound like the tension here is between, you know, these progressive policies that maybe take a longer to really see the fruits of, whereas, you know, there’s this feeling that people want something to be done about crime right now. And they know that especially in Oakland, there’s really this feeling of rise in crime is particularly relevant. What does the data actually show, though?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Alameda County has more than a dozen cities in it. Oakland is not the only one, but perhaps the city that will become the crux of most discussions will be Oakland. Oakland’s crime numbers have fluctuated. In June, a number of crimes across the city were down. Number of types of crimes, including assaults, were down. The crime rate itself was down in total compared to the same time last year. But as we see happen in summer months, this is a normal occurrence. In July, those numbers tracked up. Crime was up compared to the same time last year. You could have different arguments about why it’s up at the same time last year, higher than last year, but it is up in July. But as we’ve seen, they’ve gone up and down and down and up. And historically, at least compared to decades ago, crime is low. But what we hear and what we hear across the state and the country is this fear of crime. And a lot of it has been stoked by these videos. We see viral videos of crime. And people are afraid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Coming up, Pamela Price’s thoughts on the recall and what happens from here. How has Pamela Price responded to this effort to recall her, Joe?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Pamela Price had some real harsh words for those who are behind this effort.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>These are election deniers. They lost the election. So they want to have a do over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Subverting democracy that they’re comparable to the people in the January six insurrection, that they’re Republicans, that they’re out-of-towners. And she was she didn’t hold back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>Their candidate lost. And so they want to have a second bite at the apple. And that’s not that’s undemocratic. That’s not how democracy works. People get to vote and your vote matters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>The opponents of a power price say that crime is worse and people are afraid. And that’s bad. While prices fault for her progressive policies. And Pamela Price will argue a D.A. is one actor among many in the criminal justice system, including the police offenders, the role of education, the county and economic health and all of those have a place in the crime rate. And the D.A. does not really have a strong influence on crime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>A D.A. has no effect whatsoever on crime rates. That is a failed measure. And it’s been proven over and over across the country. That’s not how you measure the performance of your district attorney. When we invest in community support for people with mental illness, when we invest in services and opportunities for young people, when we invest in our community, that’s when we’ll see crime go down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>I will say I have spoken to some academics about this. They also argue that really what you need is a preponderance of data about recidivism and diversion rates. The progressives have the tough argument here because their argument is one that is measured in time, whereas people who have a more kind of law and order view are measuring it by individual trauma and individual pain, which is much easier to show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So if Pamela Price thinks crime rates are a bad way of measuring the success of a day, how does she measure success? Like what accomplishments does she really point to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>I think what she really points to is, is how she is trying to wrap around services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>We have established a civil rights bureau. We’ve created a community support bureau. We have worked on the victim witness advocates making sure that we’re expanding those services, as well as expanding the outreach of the collaborative course, the mental health courts, and dealing with mental health diversion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>She tells me we helping getting multilingual support for victims of crime. We’re updating collaborative courts so that we can have more diversions for people who use drugs and have other low level offenses, aren’t going to jail, but are instead are getting help that they need. There’s mental health courts where she’s hired some of the first mental health clinicians. You know, the mental health courts had attorneys, but no mental health experts. So she hired the.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>Obviously our Public Accountability Unit, which is part of the Civil Rights Bureau, initially looked at eight cases of police misconduct and we’re holding police accountable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>But one of the other major tenets of helping to stem the cycle of crime from her point of view, is to reduce sentencing with the hope that reducing sentencing can help communities heal, can help individuals get out of the cycle of crime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>And the mandate is the same. We cannot continue to over incarcerate and over criminalize black and brown people in this community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>She’s only been in office six months before this recall campaign started. And I think she’s going to try to argue that, hey, give me time to to do what you elected me to do. I said all this on the campaign trail. I said I was going to lessen the sentences. I said I was going to do special circumstances. I said I was going to charge minors as minors and not as adults. These are the reasons that you voted for me. She will say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>Alameda County is a very special place that I’ve been embraced by for 40 years, and I was elected to do the job and I’m going to continue to do the job that I was elected to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’re still early on, it sounds like. But I mean, you’ve already been talking about this sort of comparison that a lot of people are making between what happened in San Francisco and the recall of former district attorney Jason Boudin. But is that a fair comparison here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>I think the lessons that we can take from Chase’s recall are select ones. But you have to remember the recall. Chase Aberdeen was in San Francisco, which is both one city and one county in Alameda County. There’s more than a dozen cities. So that’s a lot of places to gather signatures. There’s a lot of ground to have to cover. That’s going to cost some money. And so what will determine the viability of this recall effort will be the amount of money that we see it raising in the near future. Another big difference that folks pointed out to me is that the demographics of Alameda County are a lot different. San Francisco has become wealthier. San Francisco has become whiter. San Francisco has a very small black population. And now I’m not going to argue that the black population in Alameda County is monolithic. There are certainly people across the political spectrum there. But because there is a higher black population in Alameda County, there are more folks who have a more direct experience with law enforcement. More progressive folks who have argued and will argue that they want criminal justice reform. And that’s something that might have a stronger pull in Alameda County than we saw on San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, what are you going to be watching, Joe, in the next couple of months?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>I’m going to be watching to see how Pambo prizes arguments evolve around keeping herself in office. I’m definitely interested to see if she continues on the same tack and the same set of arguments the Chaser routine used before he was ousted. I’m curious to see how much money the recall proponents raise and if they’re able to signature gather to the level that they want. I’m interested to see some of the cases that Pamela Price tries and see if they continue to garner the same attention as Jasper Wu’s case. There was just a community meeting just the night before. We’re recording this in the Oakland Hills, where a lot of folks in those wealthier areas were quite angry, detailing car break ins and such. And Pamela Price had to answer to a lot of angry folks who thought that her policies might be making them less safe. And she argued directly to them that she didn’t think that her policies add anything to do with the level of crime, that they should direct their ire to the police.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Joe, I’m sure I’ll be talking with you about all of this again sometime soon. But thanks so much for breaking this down. I appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Absolutely. Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Now that the necessary papers have been filed, the campaign will have to gather more than 93,000 signatures to get this question of whether to recall Pamela Price on the ballot. And it’s going to take a lot of cash to get that task done. Upwards of $1,000,000, according to one estimate. That was Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez, a politics and government reporter for KQED. This 40-minute conversation with Joe was cut down and edited by producer Maria Esquinca. Alan Montecillo is our senior editor. He scored this episode and added all the tape. And I am Ericka Cruz Guevara. Welcome back to The Bay. It’s so good to be back in your feed. Hope you can wrap us back into your daily routine here. And we appreciate you for listening and for rocking with us and for sticking around. We’ll talk to you next time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A committee called Save Alameda For Everyone (SAFE) has filed documents for a recall campaign against progressive Alameda County District Attorney Pamela Price. KQED’s \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/FitzTheReporter\">Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez\u003c/a> explains why this is happening — and whether DA Price could face the same fate as Chesa Boudin did in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC9916568677\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And we’re back to regularly scheduled programing, folks. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. And welcome back to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. Alameda County made history last year when voters elected a progressive district attorney named Pamela Price. Price was a civil rights lawyer who grew up in the foster care and juvenile justice system, and she promised a different approach to criminal justice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>When we invest in community support for people with mental illness, when we invest in services and opportunities for young people, when we invest in our community, that’s when we’ll see crime go down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Now, less than a year into her term, fears about gun violence, robberies and car break ins are fueling an effort to boot race out of office and prices in a tough spot. Because while the investments she wants to make take time to trickle down into the community, there are people who want something to be done about the crimes happening right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>The opponents of progressive policies have very strong emotional arguments they can make by pointing to these cases where, you know, perhaps some tragedy happened and there wasn’t a as harsh a sentence as maybe a victim would prefer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So, how bad is crime in Alameda County, really? And what does Pamela Price say she’s going to do with it? All that and more on the recall right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>The recall against most delays in the state has been predicated on the idea that crime is rising and that progressive policies are contributing to rising crime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez is a politics and government reporter for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>It’s a bit of a messy argument, though, because crime has risen and dropped in trends that we see happening across the country. Sometimes, as some of our colleagues here actually have shown, the crime rates are actually higher in places with conservative district attorneys. But there is a climate of fear around crime. And so what we’re seeing is the earliest hints of a recall, a recall that has been established as a campaign committee, which means it’s taking the legal steps to establish itself, which means it’s very early. We don’t know how much money they’re going to raise or can raise or how effective they’ll be. But there’s a recall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Who is behind this recall effort in Alameda County to get Pamela Price: out of office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>But I want to temper first by saying until we see where the money is coming from. We won’t have a full picture of all of who is behind this recall effort. But so far, the names that were registered on the documents with the Albany County Elections office are Carl Chan, who is a Oakland Chinatown Chamber of Commerce leader; Phillip Dreyfus, who donated $10,000 to the effort to remove former San Francisco district attorney Chesa Boudin; and Brenda Grisham. She’s the principal officer of the recall effort against Pamela Price, and Grisham is a victims rights advocate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I know Brenda is actually someone who’s personally affected by crime in Alameda County. Can you tell me a little bit more about her background?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Ms. grisham is from East Oakland. Her son, Christopher, was shot and killed in 2010.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>And this year, it will make 13 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>And they never caught the person who shot and killed her son. But having lost her son so early, she took that pain and galvanized it into action. And she formed a foundation named after her son, Christopher Lavelle Jones Foundation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>We just recently celebrated the 12 year anniversary of the foundation because it took me like a year to figure out how I wanted to keep Christopher’s name alive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>She’s essentially taken that experience and used it to help others who went through what she did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>Here in our local area. I’ve helped with getting some policies and procedures to help with the victims of crime, have helped in getting the victims of crime money increased so that families can, you know, really take care of the business after the loss of a loved one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>What is her main argument for recalling price? Why does she want to be involved in this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>So they have not made any formal announcements yet. And when I talked to Ms.. Grisham, she said that she would not speak on behalf of the recall during our interview. But what she said personally, she doesn’t believe that folks should see lighter sentences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>Oh, sentencing is definitely an issue. Yes. We got to get to a common ground. I don’t see that’s going to happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>She thinks that progressive DA’s have made too many arguments about why perpetrators of crime do what they do. Trying to analyze too much, the systems that push them into that crime and saying, you know what? If you decided to do that crime, that’s made the choice, you’re done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>The idea of who the victim is is what the problem is. The people that have been traumatized by the actual act are the victims.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>You know, Ms.. Grisham has personal experience with, too. She related to me an experience where she brought some of her fellow members from her foundation who are all victims or survivors of crime, to speak to Pamela Price. And she described a very tense situation where perhaps the price was perhaps not as politic with them as she could have been, in fact, to hear Grisham tell it. D.A. Price was defensive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Brenda Grisham: \u003c/strong>She never talked to them as they were victims. She never said, I’m sorry for your loss. None of that. She had a condescending tone that I don’t like. When you’re being professional, you don’t talk to people like they are, but they feel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And Joey know that there’s usually like this ramp up that happens to a recall campaign that really builds from stories or cases that people end up really pointing to as examples and rationale for recalling someone in office. Right. What are some of the important cases in Alameda County that are really fueling this effort to recall Pamela Price?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Just to take a step back from this, the opponents of progressive policies have very strong emotional arguments they can make by pointing to these cases where some tragedy happened and there wasn’t a as harsh a sentence as maybe a victim would prefer. And so we’re seeing this argument being made in the case of Jasper Wu, a toddler who was shot and killed in 2021 while in a car with his mother heading home to Fremont from San Francisco. Jasper was sadly caught up in gunshots between adult men who were shooting at one another. There are two men who are defendants in the in the case of the death of young Jasper, Wu, Ivory Bivins and Trevor GREENE were both 24 and 22, respectively. And essentially, Pamela Price has decided not to pursue what we call special circumstances enhancements with those two men.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Special circumstances are basically an add on charge that a d.a. Can apply that can lead to much harsher punishments for people accused of murder. That could mean life in prison without parole or even the death penalty for the accused. Pamela Price has vowed to stop pursuing special circumstances, citing numbers that show that black defendants are disproportionately more likely to face these charges. But some residents strongly oppose this idea, especially when it comes to high profile crimes where people really want to see justice come down hard, like in the case of Jasper Woo’s death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>You know, it touches on a few different things in the community, right? Jasper Woo is an Asian child, so it touches on the hearts of those who have been really affected by the anti-Asian hate we’ve seen since the rise of the pandemic. It also touches on this fear of rising crime and this idea of lawlessness. It’s kind of a nexus case of all of these fears that are really coming together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>But to be clear and just to clarify, these two men are still facing charges, just not these sort of special circumstances enhancement that people, it sounds like, are really want to see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Yeah, if convicted, Bivins is facing 265 years to life in prison. Green faces 175 years to life in prison. These men are facing incredibly steep charges for what they did. The only difference here is there is some possibility of parole.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, I want to talk, Joe, more about this feeling that crime is up and these fears around crime, because it does sound like the tension here is between, you know, these progressive policies that maybe take a longer to really see the fruits of, whereas, you know, there’s this feeling that people want something to be done about crime right now. And they know that especially in Oakland, there’s really this feeling of rise in crime is particularly relevant. What does the data actually show, though?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Alameda County has more than a dozen cities in it. Oakland is not the only one, but perhaps the city that will become the crux of most discussions will be Oakland. Oakland’s crime numbers have fluctuated. In June, a number of crimes across the city were down. Number of types of crimes, including assaults, were down. The crime rate itself was down in total compared to the same time last year. But as we see happen in summer months, this is a normal occurrence. In July, those numbers tracked up. Crime was up compared to the same time last year. You could have different arguments about why it’s up at the same time last year, higher than last year, but it is up in July. But as we’ve seen, they’ve gone up and down and down and up. And historically, at least compared to decades ago, crime is low. But what we hear and what we hear across the state and the country is this fear of crime. And a lot of it has been stoked by these videos. We see viral videos of crime. And people are afraid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Coming up, Pamela Price’s thoughts on the recall and what happens from here. How has Pamela Price responded to this effort to recall her, Joe?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Pamela Price had some real harsh words for those who are behind this effort.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>These are election deniers. They lost the election. So they want to have a do over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Subverting democracy that they’re comparable to the people in the January six insurrection, that they’re Republicans, that they’re out-of-towners. And she was she didn’t hold back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>Their candidate lost. And so they want to have a second bite at the apple. And that’s not that’s undemocratic. That’s not how democracy works. People get to vote and your vote matters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>The opponents of a power price say that crime is worse and people are afraid. And that’s bad. While prices fault for her progressive policies. And Pamela Price will argue a D.A. is one actor among many in the criminal justice system, including the police offenders, the role of education, the county and economic health and all of those have a place in the crime rate. And the D.A. does not really have a strong influence on crime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>A D.A. has no effect whatsoever on crime rates. That is a failed measure. And it’s been proven over and over across the country. That’s not how you measure the performance of your district attorney. When we invest in community support for people with mental illness, when we invest in services and opportunities for young people, when we invest in our community, that’s when we’ll see crime go down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>I will say I have spoken to some academics about this. They also argue that really what you need is a preponderance of data about recidivism and diversion rates. The progressives have the tough argument here because their argument is one that is measured in time, whereas people who have a more kind of law and order view are measuring it by individual trauma and individual pain, which is much easier to show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So if Pamela Price thinks crime rates are a bad way of measuring the success of a day, how does she measure success? Like what accomplishments does she really point to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>I think what she really points to is, is how she is trying to wrap around services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>We have established a civil rights bureau. We’ve created a community support bureau. We have worked on the victim witness advocates making sure that we’re expanding those services, as well as expanding the outreach of the collaborative course, the mental health courts, and dealing with mental health diversion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>She tells me we helping getting multilingual support for victims of crime. We’re updating collaborative courts so that we can have more diversions for people who use drugs and have other low level offenses, aren’t going to jail, but are instead are getting help that they need. There’s mental health courts where she’s hired some of the first mental health clinicians. You know, the mental health courts had attorneys, but no mental health experts. So she hired the.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>Obviously our Public Accountability Unit, which is part of the Civil Rights Bureau, initially looked at eight cases of police misconduct and we’re holding police accountable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>But one of the other major tenets of helping to stem the cycle of crime from her point of view, is to reduce sentencing with the hope that reducing sentencing can help communities heal, can help individuals get out of the cycle of crime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>And the mandate is the same. We cannot continue to over incarcerate and over criminalize black and brown people in this community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>She’s only been in office six months before this recall campaign started. And I think she’s going to try to argue that, hey, give me time to to do what you elected me to do. I said all this on the campaign trail. I said I was going to lessen the sentences. I said I was going to do special circumstances. I said I was going to charge minors as minors and not as adults. These are the reasons that you voted for me. She will say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pamela Price: \u003c/strong>Alameda County is a very special place that I’ve been embraced by for 40 years, and I was elected to do the job and I’m going to continue to do the job that I was elected to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’re still early on, it sounds like. But I mean, you’ve already been talking about this sort of comparison that a lot of people are making between what happened in San Francisco and the recall of former district attorney Jason Boudin. But is that a fair comparison here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>I think the lessons that we can take from Chase’s recall are select ones. But you have to remember the recall. Chase Aberdeen was in San Francisco, which is both one city and one county in Alameda County. There’s more than a dozen cities. So that’s a lot of places to gather signatures. There’s a lot of ground to have to cover. That’s going to cost some money. And so what will determine the viability of this recall effort will be the amount of money that we see it raising in the near future. Another big difference that folks pointed out to me is that the demographics of Alameda County are a lot different. San Francisco has become wealthier. San Francisco has become whiter. San Francisco has a very small black population. And now I’m not going to argue that the black population in Alameda County is monolithic. There are certainly people across the political spectrum there. But because there is a higher black population in Alameda County, there are more folks who have a more direct experience with law enforcement. More progressive folks who have argued and will argue that they want criminal justice reform. And that’s something that might have a stronger pull in Alameda County than we saw on San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, what are you going to be watching, Joe, in the next couple of months?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>I’m going to be watching to see how Pambo prizes arguments evolve around keeping herself in office. I’m definitely interested to see if she continues on the same tack and the same set of arguments the Chaser routine used before he was ousted. I’m curious to see how much money the recall proponents raise and if they’re able to signature gather to the level that they want. I’m interested to see some of the cases that Pamela Price tries and see if they continue to garner the same attention as Jasper Wu’s case. There was just a community meeting just the night before. We’re recording this in the Oakland Hills, where a lot of folks in those wealthier areas were quite angry, detailing car break ins and such. And Pamela Price had to answer to a lot of angry folks who thought that her policies might be making them less safe. And she argued directly to them that she didn’t think that her policies add anything to do with the level of crime, that they should direct their ire to the police.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Joe, I’m sure I’ll be talking with you about all of this again sometime soon. But thanks so much for breaking this down. I appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Absolutely. Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Now that the necessary papers have been filed, the campaign will have to gather more than 93,000 signatures to get this question of whether to recall Pamela Price on the ballot. And it’s going to take a lot of cash to get that task done. Upwards of $1,000,000, according to one estimate. That was Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez, a politics and government reporter for KQED. This 40-minute conversation with Joe was cut down and edited by producer Maria Esquinca. Alan Montecillo is our senior editor. He scored this episode and added all the tape. And I am Ericka Cruz Guevara. Welcome back to The Bay. It’s so good to be back in your feed. Hope you can wrap us back into your daily routine here. And we appreciate you for listening and for rocking with us and for sticking around. We’ll talk to you next time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q7BNr6kOVbzQpP46ZuANDKQEgjwIpge7/view?usp=drive_link\">Read a transcript of this episode. \u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you watch national TV news — or eavesdrop at your local coffee shop — you may have heard something like this: San Francisco’s offices are lying vacant, homelessness is rampant, and the city is floundering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Judith Gottlieb, a retired nurse in Oakland, has been hearing some of those stories. And the idea of people sleeping on the street breaks her heart. One day, she got an idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I heard about all these empty office buildings in San Francisco, and I was thinking, couldn’t we just move [people] in there really quickly?” Gottlieb asked Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Office vacancy is hovering around 30% in downtown San Francisco, and recently there’s been a lot of talk about converting all these empty offices to living space as a way to create much-needed housing and revive downtown at the same time. [baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The unhoused need dignity. They need a roof over their head,” said Gottlieb. “Anything we can do is better than just waiting around.”\u003cbr>\nBay Curious looked into the economics of converting office space to housing in the city, and explored whether this is a good option for getting people off the streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How difficult is conversion?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Offices have been converted to housing before in San Francisco, but only a handful of times, according to the San Francisco Planning Commission. But as far as the agency knows, it hasn’t been done for people experiencing homelessness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A prime example of a market-rate conversion is 100 Van Ness, a 28-story, glass-covered tower just steps from Market Street and City Hall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This tower first belonged to the California State Automobile Association and was built in the 1970s. Back then, it was a beige tower of concrete with small rectangular windows. Now its exterior is almost all glass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11955562\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-scaled.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11955562 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-scaled.jpeg\" alt=\"A white man wearing a suit smiles at the camera in the foreground. He's standing on the rooftop of a skyscraper. Behind him is a view of the San Francisco city skyline.\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1920\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-scaled.jpeg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-800x600.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-1020x765.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-160x120.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-1536x1152.jpeg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-2048x1536.jpeg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-1920x1440.jpeg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Strachan Forgan stands on the rooftop of 100 Van Ness. \u003ccite>(Pauline Bartolone/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We essentially took off the entire façade of the building and replaced it with this floor-to-ceiling glass,” said Strachan Forgan, a principal at SCB, the architectural firm that helped create the residential units in 2015.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During a recent tour of 100 Van Ness, Forgan explained the complete transformation of the interior of the building. The once sprawling open floors of office space have been carved up into hundreds of luxury apartments. Only four of the original eight elevators remain, because residential settings have less need for elevators, according to Forgan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The converted apartments — ranging from $3,159 for a tiny studio to more than $6,000 for a roomy two-bedroom — are not without design quirks. Some are attractive, others less so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Things residents may enjoy are the elevated ceilings — slightly higher than in your standard apartment. Developers also removed the heating and cooling machinery, which is typically kept on office building roofs, to make open leisure space instead, complete with chairs and 360-degree views of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It has pretty spectacular views in every direction,” said Forgan, with a backdrop of the Marin Headlands, and the many hills of San Francisco, behind him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the downside, some apartments at Van Ness have fewer surface area for windows, so bedrooms use “borrowed light” from living spaces. Because the apartments are carved out of a vast open office floor, many of the apartments are long and deep, stretching from the window to the center elevators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a result, many apartments at 100 Van Ness have long, tunnel-like hallways with windows at the end. In one of the building’s one-bedroom units, a windowless bedroom in the middle of the layout has a semi-transparent wall to let in light from the living room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11954821\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11954821 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A large empty room with a glass sliding door and glass panels in one wall.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A sliding door and light panels allow light through to an interior bedroom in a converted apartment at 100 Van Ness in San Francisco on June 30, 2023. Built in 1974, the building was converted from office space to residential apartment units in 2012. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>When 100 Van Ness first opened to residents, units with windowless bedrooms were initially offered with significant discounts, but developers soon found that wasn’t necessary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Actually, the residents really like it because it’s very quiet,” said Forgan. “You’re away from the hustle and bustle. It can be a little darker, so if you’re sleeping there, it’s fine.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>It comes down to money\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Forgan’s firm wants to stay in this business of designing conversions of offices to housing. They see the value to downtown San Francisco, and the environment. Reusing an existing building has a smaller carbon footprint than knocking it down and starting from scratch.\u003cbr>\nSo why is this project one of only a handful of office-to-residential conversions in San Francisco?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Perhaps not surprisingly, it has largely to do with the high cost of housing development.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a very basic level, there’s the cost of new plumbing and electrical. You need pipes for new kitchens and bathrooms. Then, a lot of these buildings need a seismic upgrade. Forgan says the kind of housing that would recoup costs of a conversion would be at the higher end of the market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’ve got to buy the building and do everything to convert it. And by the time you add up those costs, the only thing that pencils [out] is more of a luxury product, especially with a building like this that has great views and a good location,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11954820\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11954820 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"People pass a sign on a city sidewalk advertising luxury apartments.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People pass by the entrance to the 100 Van Ness building in San Francisco on June 30, 2023. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Housing developers like the Emerald Fund, which backed 100 Van Ness, say they’re interested in doing more office-to-housing conversions. The raw construction costs of converting offices could actually be done more cheaply than building a brand-new apartment tower, says Marc Babsin, president of the fund.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Babsin says they’ve looked at four office buildings to convert recently, but so far, no new project has made sense cost-wise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We continue to look. We think this is a great idea from a public policy perspective. We do need to save our downtowns and this is a great way to do that, to bring people onto the street,” said Babsin. “It’s a great way to produce housing that is currently not being produced.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Public policy experts at the San Francisco Bay Area Planning and Urban Research Association (SPUR) agree that the hefty costs of development can make such a project a nonstarter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sujata Srivastava, San Francisco director at SPUR, explained a few of the financial burdens that give housing developers pause:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>City fees that support public projects like child care programs and transportation, which can add up to millions of dollars.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Transfer and property taxes.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Reduced revenue potential, because San Francisco requires a certain number of units be affordable to lower-income tenants.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Construction costs, which are very expensive right now.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>“It doesn’t really make any financial sense to do conversions under the current costs that we have in San Francisco,” said Srivastava, adding that housing development is even less likely because rents are also down since before the pandemic. “The math just doesn’t really work.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A recent SPUR report suggests city lawmakers need to make major changes if they want to jump-start these conversions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco politicians have already made some changes, and are working on more. The Mayor’s Office and supervisors have relaxed rules about open space, sunlight and apartment sizes for some conversions. Elected city officials have proposed reducing affordable housing requirements and impact fees on all new housing developments, but not as low as developers want.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s all part of the city’s effort to jump-start more activity downtown and build more housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A solution for homelessness?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Since the pandemic emptied out office space in the Financial District, downtown streets look vacant; pedestrians experience windy sidewalks, empty restaurants and sparse foot traffic. Graham Luth was sitting on the sidewalk on 2nd Street near Montgomery Street one recent Friday morning, trying to get money to go to Colorado.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I got evicted, sort of,” said Luth about being temporarily without a home. “I got a job offer but I’m short on bus money.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When asked about this idea of sheltering people in empty office space downtown, Luth looked up at the tall buildings around him, and said, if no one’s using them, why not?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s a fantastic idea because there is a lot of space that is just … sitting there,” said Luth. “So I guess just being able to figure out who owns the spaces and if … they’re not gaining or losing, that the space can be used for a matter that would help support the whole community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, the city of San Francisco may have already found a different way to shelter people without housing: buying underused hotels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the things that happened during the pandemic that … really kind of changed the landscape around solving homelessness was this idea of using hotels,” said Jennifer Friedenbach, executive director of the Coalition on Homelessness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the pandemic, San Francisco and their partner organizations bought eight hotels and apartment buildings to provide permanent supportive housing to people who were formerly on the streets. It has created almost 1,000 new housing units for people without shelter. The city is in the process of acquiring two more buildings. [emailsignup newslettername=\"baycurious\" align=\"right\"]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a result of San Francisco’s efforts, the unsheltered unhoused population has gone down 15% since 2020. That’s as homelessness in general has gone up around the state, according to the Public Policy Institute of California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Folks are getting housed,” said Friedenbach. “That has been really incredible.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco used state COVID-19 money through Project Homekey and a local tax on large corporations, known to San Francisco voters as Proposition C, to purchase and operate the buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We had unprecedented success during COVID,” said Shireen McSpadden, executive director of San Francisco’s Department of Homelessness and Supportive Housing, about their recent efforts to house unsheltered people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The success is due to the enormous resources that were made available to them through Project Homekey and local tax dollars, said McSpadden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It really showed what can happen when you can marshal resources,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Friedenbach says making housing out of hotel rooms is easier and cheaper because it already has living space infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of the tourist hotels have larger rooms. You can turn them into studio apartments and have small kitchens,” Friedenbach said. “There’s all these design things you can do that are really cool and you’ve already got the pipes, the electricity, the water.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With nationally owned hotels like the Hilton and Parc 55 abandoning their Union Square buildings, and the city’s recent track record of housing people in hotels, repurposing these newly abandoned buildings doesn’t seem like a wild idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for Judith Gottlieb’s question, it seems that vacant hotels may be a better option for housing unsheltered people. But those vacant offices in the city’s core could one day be high-end housing, especially if lawmakers take more steps to make conversions cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q7BNr6kOVbzQpP46ZuANDKQEgjwIpge7/view?usp=drive_link\">Read a transcript of this episode. \u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you watch national TV news — or eavesdrop at your local coffee shop — you may have heard something like this: San Francisco’s offices are lying vacant, homelessness is rampant, and the city is floundering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Judith Gottlieb, a retired nurse in Oakland, has been hearing some of those stories. And the idea of people sleeping on the street breaks her heart. One day, she got an idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I heard about all these empty office buildings in San Francisco, and I was thinking, couldn’t we just move [people] in there really quickly?” Gottlieb asked Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Office vacancy is hovering around 30% in downtown San Francisco, and recently there’s been a lot of talk about converting all these empty offices to living space as a way to create much-needed housing and revive downtown at the same time. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The unhoused need dignity. They need a roof over their head,” said Gottlieb. “Anything we can do is better than just waiting around.”\u003cbr>\nBay Curious looked into the economics of converting office space to housing in the city, and explored whether this is a good option for getting people off the streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How difficult is conversion?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Offices have been converted to housing before in San Francisco, but only a handful of times, according to the San Francisco Planning Commission. But as far as the agency knows, it hasn’t been done for people experiencing homelessness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A prime example of a market-rate conversion is 100 Van Ness, a 28-story, glass-covered tower just steps from Market Street and City Hall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This tower first belonged to the California State Automobile Association and was built in the 1970s. Back then, it was a beige tower of concrete with small rectangular windows. Now its exterior is almost all glass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11955562\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-scaled.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11955562 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-scaled.jpeg\" alt=\"A white man wearing a suit smiles at the camera in the foreground. He's standing on the rooftop of a skyscraper. Behind him is a view of the San Francisco city skyline.\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1920\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-scaled.jpeg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-800x600.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-1020x765.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-160x120.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-1536x1152.jpeg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-2048x1536.jpeg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-1920x1440.jpeg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Strachan Forgan stands on the rooftop of 100 Van Ness. \u003ccite>(Pauline Bartolone/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We essentially took off the entire façade of the building and replaced it with this floor-to-ceiling glass,” said Strachan Forgan, a principal at SCB, the architectural firm that helped create the residential units in 2015.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During a recent tour of 100 Van Ness, Forgan explained the complete transformation of the interior of the building. The once sprawling open floors of office space have been carved up into hundreds of luxury apartments. Only four of the original eight elevators remain, because residential settings have less need for elevators, according to Forgan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The converted apartments — ranging from $3,159 for a tiny studio to more than $6,000 for a roomy two-bedroom — are not without design quirks. Some are attractive, others less so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Things residents may enjoy are the elevated ceilings — slightly higher than in your standard apartment. Developers also removed the heating and cooling machinery, which is typically kept on office building roofs, to make open leisure space instead, complete with chairs and 360-degree views of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It has pretty spectacular views in every direction,” said Forgan, with a backdrop of the Marin Headlands, and the many hills of San Francisco, behind him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the downside, some apartments at Van Ness have fewer surface area for windows, so bedrooms use “borrowed light” from living spaces. Because the apartments are carved out of a vast open office floor, many of the apartments are long and deep, stretching from the window to the center elevators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a result, many apartments at 100 Van Ness have long, tunnel-like hallways with windows at the end. In one of the building’s one-bedroom units, a windowless bedroom in the middle of the layout has a semi-transparent wall to let in light from the living room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11954821\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11954821 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A large empty room with a glass sliding door and glass panels in one wall.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A sliding door and light panels allow light through to an interior bedroom in a converted apartment at 100 Van Ness in San Francisco on June 30, 2023. Built in 1974, the building was converted from office space to residential apartment units in 2012. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>When 100 Van Ness first opened to residents, units with windowless bedrooms were initially offered with significant discounts, but developers soon found that wasn’t necessary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Actually, the residents really like it because it’s very quiet,” said Forgan. “You’re away from the hustle and bustle. It can be a little darker, so if you’re sleeping there, it’s fine.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>It comes down to money\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Forgan’s firm wants to stay in this business of designing conversions of offices to housing. They see the value to downtown San Francisco, and the environment. Reusing an existing building has a smaller carbon footprint than knocking it down and starting from scratch.\u003cbr>\nSo why is this project one of only a handful of office-to-residential conversions in San Francisco?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Perhaps not surprisingly, it has largely to do with the high cost of housing development.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a very basic level, there’s the cost of new plumbing and electrical. You need pipes for new kitchens and bathrooms. Then, a lot of these buildings need a seismic upgrade. Forgan says the kind of housing that would recoup costs of a conversion would be at the higher end of the market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’ve got to buy the building and do everything to convert it. And by the time you add up those costs, the only thing that pencils [out] is more of a luxury product, especially with a building like this that has great views and a good location,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11954820\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11954820 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"People pass a sign on a city sidewalk advertising luxury apartments.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People pass by the entrance to the 100 Van Ness building in San Francisco on June 30, 2023. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Housing developers like the Emerald Fund, which backed 100 Van Ness, say they’re interested in doing more office-to-housing conversions. The raw construction costs of converting offices could actually be done more cheaply than building a brand-new apartment tower, says Marc Babsin, president of the fund.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Babsin says they’ve looked at four office buildings to convert recently, but so far, no new project has made sense cost-wise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We continue to look. We think this is a great idea from a public policy perspective. We do need to save our downtowns and this is a great way to do that, to bring people onto the street,” said Babsin. “It’s a great way to produce housing that is currently not being produced.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Public policy experts at the San Francisco Bay Area Planning and Urban Research Association (SPUR) agree that the hefty costs of development can make such a project a nonstarter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sujata Srivastava, San Francisco director at SPUR, explained a few of the financial burdens that give housing developers pause:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>City fees that support public projects like child care programs and transportation, which can add up to millions of dollars.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Transfer and property taxes.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Reduced revenue potential, because San Francisco requires a certain number of units be affordable to lower-income tenants.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Construction costs, which are very expensive right now.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>“It doesn’t really make any financial sense to do conversions under the current costs that we have in San Francisco,” said Srivastava, adding that housing development is even less likely because rents are also down since before the pandemic. “The math just doesn’t really work.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A recent SPUR report suggests city lawmakers need to make major changes if they want to jump-start these conversions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco politicians have already made some changes, and are working on more. The Mayor’s Office and supervisors have relaxed rules about open space, sunlight and apartment sizes for some conversions. Elected city officials have proposed reducing affordable housing requirements and impact fees on all new housing developments, but not as low as developers want.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s all part of the city’s effort to jump-start more activity downtown and build more housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A solution for homelessness?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Since the pandemic emptied out office space in the Financial District, downtown streets look vacant; pedestrians experience windy sidewalks, empty restaurants and sparse foot traffic. Graham Luth was sitting on the sidewalk on 2nd Street near Montgomery Street one recent Friday morning, trying to get money to go to Colorado.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I got evicted, sort of,” said Luth about being temporarily without a home. “I got a job offer but I’m short on bus money.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When asked about this idea of sheltering people in empty office space downtown, Luth looked up at the tall buildings around him, and said, if no one’s using them, why not?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s a fantastic idea because there is a lot of space that is just … sitting there,” said Luth. “So I guess just being able to figure out who owns the spaces and if … they’re not gaining or losing, that the space can be used for a matter that would help support the whole community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, the city of San Francisco may have already found a different way to shelter people without housing: buying underused hotels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the things that happened during the pandemic that … really kind of changed the landscape around solving homelessness was this idea of using hotels,” said Jennifer Friedenbach, executive director of the Coalition on Homelessness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the pandemic, San Francisco and their partner organizations bought eight hotels and apartment buildings to provide permanent supportive housing to people who were formerly on the streets. It has created almost 1,000 new housing units for people without shelter. The city is in the process of acquiring two more buildings. \u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a result of San Francisco’s efforts, the unsheltered unhoused population has gone down 15% since 2020. That’s as homelessness in general has gone up around the state, according to the Public Policy Institute of California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Folks are getting housed,” said Friedenbach. “That has been really incredible.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco used state COVID-19 money through Project Homekey and a local tax on large corporations, known to San Francisco voters as Proposition C, to purchase and operate the buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We had unprecedented success during COVID,” said Shireen McSpadden, executive director of San Francisco’s Department of Homelessness and Supportive Housing, about their recent efforts to house unsheltered people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The success is due to the enormous resources that were made available to them through Project Homekey and local tax dollars, said McSpadden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It really showed what can happen when you can marshal resources,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Friedenbach says making housing out of hotel rooms is easier and cheaper because it already has living space infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of the tourist hotels have larger rooms. You can turn them into studio apartments and have small kitchens,” Friedenbach said. “There’s all these design things you can do that are really cool and you’ve already got the pipes, the electricity, the water.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With nationally owned hotels like the Hilton and Parc 55 abandoning their Union Square buildings, and the city’s recent track record of housing people in hotels, repurposing these newly abandoned buildings doesn’t seem like a wild idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for Judith Gottlieb’s question, it seems that vacant hotels may be a better option for housing unsheltered people. But those vacant offices in the city’s core could one day be high-end housing, especially if lawmakers take more steps to make conversions cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Breaking news from the Bay Team: we are taking our annual break from making new episodes for the month of July. We’re using this time to reset, rest, do some team bonding, and brainstorm what we want to make for you. We will be back with new episodes starting Wednesday, August 2.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can still reach us on Twitter \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/TheBayKQED\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">@TheBayKQED\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> or via e-mail \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">thebay@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. We always love hearing from you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC4047050104&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"soldout": {
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"title": "SOLD OUT: Rethinking Housing in America",
"tagline": "A new future for housing",
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