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"title": "Saving SF’s Ferry Building from the Sea",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"c-message_kit__blocks c-message_kit__blocks--rich_text\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"c-message__message_blocks c-message__message_blocks--rich_text\" data-qa=\"message-text\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"p-block_kit_renderer\" data-qa=\"block-kit-renderer\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"p-block_kit_renderer__block_wrapper p-block_kit_renderer__block_wrapper--first\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"p-rich_text_block\" dir=\"auto\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"p-rich_text_section\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003cdiv class=\"c-message__reply_bar c-message_kit__thread_replies\" role=\"presentation\" data-qa=\"reply_bar\" data-stringify-ignore=\"true\">\u003c/div>\n\u003cdiv role=\"presentation\" data-qa=\"reply_bar\" data-stringify-ignore=\"true\">\u003c/div>\n\u003cp dir=\"ltr\">Sea level rise threatens communities along the Bay and some iconic cultural heritage sites along the San Francisco shoreline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp dir=\"ltr\">So when the water comes for iconic sites like San Francisco’s Ferry Building, how do we save it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"card card--enclosed grey\">\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC4567510341&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003cp dir=\"ltr\">\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli dir=\"ltr\">\n\u003cp dir=\"ltr\" role=\"presentation\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/series/1200697917/protecting-cultural-heritage-in-a-warming-world\">NPR: Protecting Cultural Heritage in a Warming World\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. So the San Francisco Ferry building is a staple of my commute. When I’m on my way home, I love watching the building get bigger and bigger as my bus goes down Market Street, and when I’m inside waiting for the ferry, I like to look up at the tall ceilings. It’s buildings like this that put San Francisco’s waterfront on the National Register of Historic Places. But the future of the waterfront isn’t secure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>The state estimates the water could rise roughly up to two and a half feet above its current level by 2060 and potentially up to seven feet by the turn of the century, which is extraordinary to think about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>San Francisco is considering lifting the ferry building by seven feet to save it from the sea. Today, a conversation with NPR culture correspondent Chloe Veltman about saving San Francisco’s ferry building and how we talk about protecting cultural heritage in a warming world. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>In 2016, the National Trust for Historic Preservation put a whole chunk of the city’s urban shoreline on this list of the US’s most endangered historic places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Chloe Veltman is a culture correspondent for NPR who’s based in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>That stretch is focused on the Embarcadero area and encompasses all sorts of buildings. Really, it’s every historic building along the San Francisco waterfront, including those at Fisherman’s Wharf and all the way down to Bayview Hunters Point. The state estimates the water could rise roughly up to two and a half feet above its current level by 2060. And potentially up to seven feet by the turn of the century, which is extraordinary to think about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elaine Forbes: \u003c/strong>The the whole issue of climate change and historic preservation intersects right at the waterfront.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Elaine Forbes, she’s the executive director of the Port of San Francisco. And so her agency manages a seven and a half mile stretch of the city’s bay facing waterfront.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elaine Forbes: \u003c/strong>So we know we have a now problem. I would say it’s clear by mid-century we need to have had intervention.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>So she’s very much at the center of trying to figure out what to do about rising sea levels and, of course, the perpetual threat of earthquakes on the waterfront in San Francisco. Forgive me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elaine Forbes: \u003c/strong>Let’s drill in talk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Let’s take a walk. Why not? It’s kind of warm that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elaine Forbes: \u003c/strong>It’s really warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Well, she took me along the waterfront and showed me some interesting sites. There are a couple of areas not far from the ferry building that have already been raised up, actually.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elaine Forbes: \u003c/strong>And if you look at the height of the deck for the agricultural building compared to the ferry terminal, you can see the story of preparing for climate change right in front of you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>It’s so interesting. If you look, you’ll see the AG building is separated from the ferry building. There’s a channel of water around it and it’s it’s lower. It’s like two or three feet lower than the new raised up ferry gate. It’s really unnerving when someone points out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elaine Forbes: \u003c/strong>I think that’s that’s true for a lot of the public in terms of understanding what we’re facing and what it looks like on the ground, because it can be sort of conceptually confusing until you see it in the built form, like, oh, it’s very obvious what they’re facing. Here you also see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>I go there all the time and I’ve never really realized what was going on until she showed me this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elaine Forbes: \u003c/strong>Thing. Here you also see crumbling infrastructure, seismic vulnerability, sea level rise risk. Beautiful historic facility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So what’s going to do you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, that’s so interesting because it sounds like the city is already taking action. How are they talking about what to do about the ferry building?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Well, they have a whole plan that they’re developing and it’s a huge plan. And it isn’t just about the ferry building and it isn’t just about historic landmarks. Right. But they haven’t yet said exactly what they’re going to do. They’re still in the planning phase. But this federal funding and this local tax dollars, for example, in November 2018, voters in San Francisco supported Proposition eight, which is a San Francisco bond initiative, and it provided $425 million to upgrade and repair a portion of the seawall. They do need to think about how to physically move some of those historic structures, like, for example, the ferry building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>They’re also talking about beefing up the emergency response systems. Of course, the seawall is part of that and protecting natural habitats. We’re looking at billions of dollars and they are doing a lot of work to engage the community. They’ve done a lot of community walks, a lot of meetings. People are able to ask questions. This has been going on for a few years now. And the city the Port Authority’s saying that this feedback is going to help inform its draft plan for saving the city’s shoreline, but they’re not going to release that plan. They don’t think, until early next year, they tell me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>How important is it to Elaine that the ferry building be saved along with the rest of the shoreline?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>You know, we spoke about the ferry building and we focused on the ferry building, in part because it is such an iconic structure and because saving it is potentially going to require taking really drastic action. I mean, can you imagine what it might take to raise this massive building with its big clock tower up potentially by seven feet?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elaine Forbes: \u003c/strong>The ferry building is is one of the city’s most important historic facilities. And it’s iconic. You really can’t imagine a book, a novel, a movie, anything of importance about San Francisco without an image of the ferry building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Yeah, she does care about it. You know, and because they’ve heard a lot of a lot from the community that that people want that building to be safe, probably because there is a sense of attachment to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elaine Forbes: \u003c/strong>We’ve heard loud and clear everywhere it’s to be saved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It sounds like Elaine is very invested in making sure the shoreline in San Francisco is protected. And I know you walked around and asked people about how they feel about saving the ferry building in particular. How would you describe the range of thoughts people had about this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Well, I spoke to several people who feel that all of San Francisco is important. I mean, locals who’ve grown up in the city their entire lives who would like, in a sense, the city, not to discriminate, you know, one building versus another building, which you might say your full name.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dakari Tillery: \u003c/strong>Yes, I’m Dakari Tillery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Dakari is a security guard at the ferry building. I think he’s in his twenties and he grew up in the Western addition Fillmore neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dakari Tillery: \u003c/strong>Everything that was kind of meaningful to me growing up has been like tore down or reconstructed or pushed out or whatever the case is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>I caught him on a break. He was sitting on a bench looking out at the water behind the ferry building. Even though he doesn’t live on the waterfront. He definitely wants the city to think about all the parts of the city. He wants his whole city saved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dakari Tillery: \u003c/strong>These are places that people go to every day. People fly from other countries all over the place to come over and see. So that would be a waste of a beautiful city or a beautiful landmark just because we can get it together or whatever the case is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>I also spoke with somebody who isn’t so interested in specifically seeing the ferry building saved from rising sea levels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sanaz Tahernia: \u003c/strong>Oh, I mean, I think community structures are way more important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Her name is Sanaz Tahernia, and she lives in one of the waterfront neighborhoods in San Francisco near the ball park. I met with her as I was walking across the plaza in front of the ferry building, and we stopped to have a quick chat while we were looking up at the clock tower, the.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sanaz Tahernia: \u003c/strong>Ferry building, if you want to ride it seven feet, that’s going to save the ferry building. But what’s going to happen to the rest of the city? There’s people that live all along the water. I mean, the community is what makes San Francisco not these buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Yeah. And.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>One question I feel like this story raises is this question of like, what makes something worth saving in the face of climate change? And I feel like that’s kind of a big question Chloe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s a massive question, Ericka, And it’s one that people in charge of managing what we call cultural heritage spaces have to grapple with. There are ways you go about thinking about this complex problem. It’s sort of a balancing act. And so you can sort of think of it like a Venn diagram. So one of the circles is what in your community is most meaningful, most culturally significant? That’s in one circle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>The second circle is what’s the most feasible thing Like, what do you actually have the resources to do? That’s the second circle. And then the third circle is about the level of risk. How likely is this building or this other piece of cultural heritage going to be underwater? So you’re thinking about all these things, and ideally, the things that you decide to save need to be in the middle of that Venn diagram, you know? So that’s I mean, that’s one way that a lot of the experts are thinking about this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marcy Rockman: \u003c/strong>Things that have to do with heritage are still seen as being sort of a luxury.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Marcy Rockman is one of this country’s foremost experts on climate change and cultural heritage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marcy Rockman: \u003c/strong>There’s something that’s nice to have, but they’re not seen as essential.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>She feels very strongly that cultural heritage is not just about old buildings with plaques on them, right? Every community has cultural heritage, and it’s really important that cities and municipalities that are trying to figure out their way through this problem about what to save and what to let go of. Consult locals, talk to communities, listen. Listen to what they have to say about what really matters to them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marcy Rockman: \u003c/strong>So love to see is more support for all communities to help figure out what matters about this place, what is happening to it? What are the parts you most want to carry forward? And then how do we do that? And where heritage is often most fatal is where it is lived, lived and used.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>The story that you did on the Ferry Building is part of a series from NPR about the threat that climate change poses to cultural heritage sites. Why do you think this is important to talk about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s really important, Ericka, because a lot of the conversation, both in politics and the media about climate change, has traditionally focused on the science. But the problem is that data can be really hard for most people to wrap their heads around. And it’s only when you have these extreme weather events and then they threaten the things that we love, our cultural heritage, the things that we hold most dear to us. It could be, you know, the paintings that your kids made at school in your own home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>I mean, that can be cultural heritage, right? As well as the local old pub in my my neighborhood growing up in England, you know. It’s only when you see terrible fires and floods and other extreme weather impact those things, that climate change starts to feel really tangible. Really, my series for NPR is exploring this connection between the things that we value in the world and how those are impacted by the increasing amount of devastating floods, wildfires and extreme weather events.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Chloe, I really appreciate you sharing your reporting with us. Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>It’s a pleasure. Thanks, Ericka.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was Chloe Veltman, a culture correspondent for NPR who’s based in San Francisco. This 23 minute conversation with Chloe was cut down and edited by senior editor Alan Montecillo. Producer María Esquinca scored this episode and added all the tape. Shoutout as well to the rest of our podcast team here at KQED, that’s Jen Chien, our director of podcasts, Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager, Cesar Saldana, our engagement producer, and Holly Kernan, our chief content officer. The Bay is a production of member supported KQED. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, thank you for listening to the Bay. Peace.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. So the San Francisco Ferry building is a staple of my commute. When I’m on my way home, I love watching the building get bigger and bigger as my bus goes down Market Street, and when I’m inside waiting for the ferry, I like to look up at the tall ceilings. It’s buildings like this that put San Francisco’s waterfront on the National Register of Historic Places. But the future of the waterfront isn’t secure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>The state estimates the water could rise roughly up to two and a half feet above its current level by 2060 and potentially up to seven feet by the turn of the century, which is extraordinary to think about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>San Francisco is considering lifting the ferry building by seven feet to save it from the sea. Today, a conversation with NPR culture correspondent Chloe Veltman about saving San Francisco’s ferry building and how we talk about protecting cultural heritage in a warming world. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>In 2016, the National Trust for Historic Preservation put a whole chunk of the city’s urban shoreline on this list of the US’s most endangered historic places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Chloe Veltman is a culture correspondent for NPR who’s based in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>That stretch is focused on the Embarcadero area and encompasses all sorts of buildings. Really, it’s every historic building along the San Francisco waterfront, including those at Fisherman’s Wharf and all the way down to Bayview Hunters Point. The state estimates the water could rise roughly up to two and a half feet above its current level by 2060. And potentially up to seven feet by the turn of the century, which is extraordinary to think about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elaine Forbes: \u003c/strong>The the whole issue of climate change and historic preservation intersects right at the waterfront.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Elaine Forbes, she’s the executive director of the Port of San Francisco. And so her agency manages a seven and a half mile stretch of the city’s bay facing waterfront.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elaine Forbes: \u003c/strong>So we know we have a now problem. I would say it’s clear by mid-century we need to have had intervention.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>So she’s very much at the center of trying to figure out what to do about rising sea levels and, of course, the perpetual threat of earthquakes on the waterfront in San Francisco. Forgive me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elaine Forbes: \u003c/strong>Let’s drill in talk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Let’s take a walk. Why not? It’s kind of warm that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elaine Forbes: \u003c/strong>It’s really warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Well, she took me along the waterfront and showed me some interesting sites. There are a couple of areas not far from the ferry building that have already been raised up, actually.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elaine Forbes: \u003c/strong>And if you look at the height of the deck for the agricultural building compared to the ferry terminal, you can see the story of preparing for climate change right in front of you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>It’s so interesting. If you look, you’ll see the AG building is separated from the ferry building. There’s a channel of water around it and it’s it’s lower. It’s like two or three feet lower than the new raised up ferry gate. It’s really unnerving when someone points out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elaine Forbes: \u003c/strong>I think that’s that’s true for a lot of the public in terms of understanding what we’re facing and what it looks like on the ground, because it can be sort of conceptually confusing until you see it in the built form, like, oh, it’s very obvious what they’re facing. Here you also see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>I go there all the time and I’ve never really realized what was going on until she showed me this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elaine Forbes: \u003c/strong>Thing. Here you also see crumbling infrastructure, seismic vulnerability, sea level rise risk. Beautiful historic facility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So what’s going to do you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, that’s so interesting because it sounds like the city is already taking action. How are they talking about what to do about the ferry building?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Well, they have a whole plan that they’re developing and it’s a huge plan. And it isn’t just about the ferry building and it isn’t just about historic landmarks. Right. But they haven’t yet said exactly what they’re going to do. They’re still in the planning phase. But this federal funding and this local tax dollars, for example, in November 2018, voters in San Francisco supported Proposition eight, which is a San Francisco bond initiative, and it provided $425 million to upgrade and repair a portion of the seawall. They do need to think about how to physically move some of those historic structures, like, for example, the ferry building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>They’re also talking about beefing up the emergency response systems. Of course, the seawall is part of that and protecting natural habitats. We’re looking at billions of dollars and they are doing a lot of work to engage the community. They’ve done a lot of community walks, a lot of meetings. People are able to ask questions. This has been going on for a few years now. And the city the Port Authority’s saying that this feedback is going to help inform its draft plan for saving the city’s shoreline, but they’re not going to release that plan. They don’t think, until early next year, they tell me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>How important is it to Elaine that the ferry building be saved along with the rest of the shoreline?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>You know, we spoke about the ferry building and we focused on the ferry building, in part because it is such an iconic structure and because saving it is potentially going to require taking really drastic action. I mean, can you imagine what it might take to raise this massive building with its big clock tower up potentially by seven feet?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elaine Forbes: \u003c/strong>The ferry building is is one of the city’s most important historic facilities. And it’s iconic. You really can’t imagine a book, a novel, a movie, anything of importance about San Francisco without an image of the ferry building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Yeah, she does care about it. You know, and because they’ve heard a lot of a lot from the community that that people want that building to be safe, probably because there is a sense of attachment to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elaine Forbes: \u003c/strong>We’ve heard loud and clear everywhere it’s to be saved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It sounds like Elaine is very invested in making sure the shoreline in San Francisco is protected. And I know you walked around and asked people about how they feel about saving the ferry building in particular. How would you describe the range of thoughts people had about this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Well, I spoke to several people who feel that all of San Francisco is important. I mean, locals who’ve grown up in the city their entire lives who would like, in a sense, the city, not to discriminate, you know, one building versus another building, which you might say your full name.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dakari Tillery: \u003c/strong>Yes, I’m Dakari Tillery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Dakari is a security guard at the ferry building. I think he’s in his twenties and he grew up in the Western addition Fillmore neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dakari Tillery: \u003c/strong>Everything that was kind of meaningful to me growing up has been like tore down or reconstructed or pushed out or whatever the case is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>I caught him on a break. He was sitting on a bench looking out at the water behind the ferry building. Even though he doesn’t live on the waterfront. He definitely wants the city to think about all the parts of the city. He wants his whole city saved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dakari Tillery: \u003c/strong>These are places that people go to every day. People fly from other countries all over the place to come over and see. So that would be a waste of a beautiful city or a beautiful landmark just because we can get it together or whatever the case is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>I also spoke with somebody who isn’t so interested in specifically seeing the ferry building saved from rising sea levels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sanaz Tahernia: \u003c/strong>Oh, I mean, I think community structures are way more important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Her name is Sanaz Tahernia, and she lives in one of the waterfront neighborhoods in San Francisco near the ball park. I met with her as I was walking across the plaza in front of the ferry building, and we stopped to have a quick chat while we were looking up at the clock tower, the.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sanaz Tahernia: \u003c/strong>Ferry building, if you want to ride it seven feet, that’s going to save the ferry building. But what’s going to happen to the rest of the city? There’s people that live all along the water. I mean, the community is what makes San Francisco not these buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Yeah. And.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>One question I feel like this story raises is this question of like, what makes something worth saving in the face of climate change? And I feel like that’s kind of a big question Chloe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s a massive question, Ericka, And it’s one that people in charge of managing what we call cultural heritage spaces have to grapple with. There are ways you go about thinking about this complex problem. It’s sort of a balancing act. And so you can sort of think of it like a Venn diagram. So one of the circles is what in your community is most meaningful, most culturally significant? That’s in one circle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>The second circle is what’s the most feasible thing Like, what do you actually have the resources to do? That’s the second circle. And then the third circle is about the level of risk. How likely is this building or this other piece of cultural heritage going to be underwater? So you’re thinking about all these things, and ideally, the things that you decide to save need to be in the middle of that Venn diagram, you know? So that’s I mean, that’s one way that a lot of the experts are thinking about this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marcy Rockman: \u003c/strong>Things that have to do with heritage are still seen as being sort of a luxury.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Marcy Rockman is one of this country’s foremost experts on climate change and cultural heritage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marcy Rockman: \u003c/strong>There’s something that’s nice to have, but they’re not seen as essential.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>She feels very strongly that cultural heritage is not just about old buildings with plaques on them, right? Every community has cultural heritage, and it’s really important that cities and municipalities that are trying to figure out their way through this problem about what to save and what to let go of. Consult locals, talk to communities, listen. Listen to what they have to say about what really matters to them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marcy Rockman: \u003c/strong>So love to see is more support for all communities to help figure out what matters about this place, what is happening to it? What are the parts you most want to carry forward? And then how do we do that? And where heritage is often most fatal is where it is lived, lived and used.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>The story that you did on the Ferry Building is part of a series from NPR about the threat that climate change poses to cultural heritage sites. Why do you think this is important to talk about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s really important, Ericka, because a lot of the conversation, both in politics and the media about climate change, has traditionally focused on the science. But the problem is that data can be really hard for most people to wrap their heads around. And it’s only when you have these extreme weather events and then they threaten the things that we love, our cultural heritage, the things that we hold most dear to us. It could be, you know, the paintings that your kids made at school in your own home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>I mean, that can be cultural heritage, right? As well as the local old pub in my my neighborhood growing up in England, you know. It’s only when you see terrible fires and floods and other extreme weather impact those things, that climate change starts to feel really tangible. Really, my series for NPR is exploring this connection between the things that we value in the world and how those are impacted by the increasing amount of devastating floods, wildfires and extreme weather events.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Chloe, I really appreciate you sharing your reporting with us. Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Veltman: \u003c/strong>It’s a pleasure. Thanks, Ericka.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was Chloe Veltman, a culture correspondent for NPR who’s based in San Francisco. This 23 minute conversation with Chloe was cut down and edited by senior editor Alan Montecillo. Producer María Esquinca scored this episode and added all the tape. Shoutout as well to the rest of our podcast team here at KQED, that’s Jen Chien, our director of podcasts, Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager, Cesar Saldana, our engagement producer, and Holly Kernan, our chief content officer. The Bay is a production of member supported KQED. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, thank you for listening to the Bay. Peace.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "A New Home for La Pulga?",
"headTitle": "A New Home for La Pulga? | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">San Jose city leaders are looking for a new site for the nearly 500 vendors at the Berryessa Flea Market, which will be moved to make way for the new Berryessa BART Urban Village. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Singleton Road landfill has risen to the top. Is an abandoned landfill the right place for a new flea market?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC6882371058&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Links: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11960306/why-the-future-of-san-joses-flea-market-could-be-an-abandoned-landfill\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why the Future of San José’s Flea Market Could Be an Abandoned Landfill\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to the Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. The nearly 500 small business owners who make up San Jose’s iconic Berryessa flea market are trying to find a new home. They’re making way for the new Berryessa BART urban village, the kind of thing that everyone says the Bay Area needs more of if we want to address our region’s housing crisis. And now, the city of San jose says it has an idea for where to put the market; an abandoned landfill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>It might also present really the best chance to keep this landmark alive. So what kind of emphasis is this for the city moving forward?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, the struggle to find a new home for La Pulga and why a landfill has risen to the top.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Guy, can you just remind us, where are we at right now in the sort of long saga of La Pulga? Like, where do things stand right now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Right now, vendors at the San Jose Berryessa flea market are dealing with kind of an unknown closure date.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Guy Marzorati is a political correspondent for KQED. He also produces the Political Breakdown podcast. He’s based in San Jose.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>It could come as soon as 2025. So what’s happening right now is kind of this scramble to find a new site. The flea market is still operating, but it does have this uncertain future. This goes back a number of years. The owners of the flea market have had a desire to redevelop the current site housing, retail around transit because BART is now in North San Jose at various and big picture like this is kind of what the city is pushing for. They want that kind of dense housing development near transit. But the flip side of that is that development, if it happens, would mean the end of the flea market as we know it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>And this would be a huge blow to San Jose, both culturally but also economically. I mean, this if you take the flea market kind of as a whole, it would be a top 50 employer in the city. It is the densest concentration of small businesses that we have in the South Bay. So it’s an incredibly stressful time for a lot of vendors. For most of them, this is a primary source of income. So are, you know, trying to find this new site with the city. I will say the city was able to extract some concessions from the owner of the flea market, most notably putting money in a pot that will be used for finding a new site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And how much money was put in that pot to help them find a new site?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>The owners, the flea market and the city are putting a $7.5 million into this fund that’s aimed at helping vendors, both when the market closes just financially, but also putting staff time and hiring consultants to identify a new site potentially.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean Guy, La Pulga is this like very unique, sprawling market. We’re talking about 460 vendors. What are some of the things that the city needs to consider as it looks for a new location for the market? I mean, it sounds really hard to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s really hard. I mean, look, in the Bay Area, land is incredibly expensive. And for a flea market of this size, you’re going to need a large piece of land. Most of the prime real estate, you know, conveniently located parcels were grabbed up years ago, let alone one of the size the, you know, dozens and dozens of acres you need for a site like this. And that’s how you get to a situation where the city of San Jose is saying the best place that we have for this landmark is a landfill. So there were five ideas brought forward by the consultant as like most viable for a future site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>There was the Santa Clara County Fairgrounds. There was the former Sears Department store at the Eastridge Mall, which would be an indoor site. There was a small piece of land that could potentially exist at various in a future development. Then there was this idea of like just having vendors set up shop in vacant storefronts throughout the city. And then there was the former landfill on Singleton Road, and that has really risen to the top of the list in the mind of city officials.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Okay. So tell us about this landfill. Where is it? Exactly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So it’s pretty centrally located right in the middle of San Jose is right off of Capital Expressway. It’s not far from Highway one, two, one, and it’s 90 acres, so there’s plenty of room there for vendors, plenty of room there for parking. And so it really fits a lot of the criteria that the city would be looking for in a potential new site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And what is there or I guess what used to be there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So it’s still right in the Seven Trees neighborhood. So there’s folks who are living all around this landfill back in the sixties and seventies. It was home to private and municipal dumps, those largely closed by the late seventies. And since then, this huge piece of land has just been sitting vacant smack in the middle of San Jose.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, what does the landfill look like now, and what has the city tried to do with it in the past?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Right now, the landfill just looks like a massive abandoned field. It’s really just these flare stacks, which kind of look like big pipes that let you know that this used to be a landfill. They’re still standing. They’re burning off methane, But there’s not much going on there now. I mean, some city inspectors actually found roosters at the landfill last year being raised for cockfighting. But there’s fences all around it. So public access is pretty limited. And their security there now, pretty much ever since the landfill closed in the late seventies, there have been ideas on what to do with it, to turn it into a golf course, to use the methane releases to create a power plant. There was even a local ballot measure in San Jose back in 2000 to fund the sports complex here, but none of those ideas came to fruition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Why has this landfill kind of risen to the top of the list?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think it breaks down to me for three reasons. Number one, the city owns this land. Like, that’s a huge piece of this because land is so expensive in the area. Finding a site where the city already owns clears out a huge amount of costs and just time that it would take to acquire a site. The second thing is the size. You’re talking about a 65 acre flea market as it exists currently. The Singleton landfills 90 acres. So it has room to basically house all the vendors that are at the flea market today, plus parking. And then the third is location.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Klein: \u003c/strong>Which carries a lot of traffic. It’s near a lot of other things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>I talked to Nancy Klein, who’s the city’s director of economic development, cultural affairs. She pointed to the location piece of this as, look, we know a lot of people that go to LA, although currently are coming from all over the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Klein: \u003c/strong>It has a similar profile in terms of several different transportation ways. So that makes it positive. It’s not as in some of the other sites which are quite a distance away on a road that makes would be terrible traffic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>She points to Singleton Road Landfill as having that advantage because it’s right off of 101. It’s near Capital Expressway. You have those major arteries that wouldn’t exist if you’d like, you know, stuck this in some open land in Morgan Hill or something.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, that makes sense to me. It’s city owned land. It’s big enough. It’s near some really important roadways. What do vendors think of this idea?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>All along really the top priority I’ve heard from vendors both on this advisory group that’s kind of leading this process. And also folks who aren’t is keeping the market together. They know that there’s just this natural cross-pollination of businesses at La Pulga. You know, maybe you go to the market, you’re looking for like home goods or something. But while you’re there, your kids are with you. You buy them some candy, you buy them Agua Fresca. Like, there’s just this natural cross-currents that happens between businesses that is so important to keeping the market thriving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>And then if you split up the vendors into smaller locations all over the city, you might not get that Singleton would accomplish that. There’d be this opportunity like, we can keep the market together, but vendors have a lot of questions left to be answered about the site and also just about the process and timeline going forward. And so that’s really been at play in these meetings of the flea market vendor advisory group. They’ve met three times so far.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Klein: \u003c/strong>Around because we are a big community. We are…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So I talked to Erika Barajas. She’s been a vendor at the market for years selling clothing. And her real feeling was like, yes, maybe, you know, Singleton has a lot of promise, but she really wants the city to commit to stepping up its support during this time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Barajas: \u003c/strong>So I want to hear from the city on our next meeting that if we decide to go with them, whether are going to be committed to us and guarantee timely free meals and also moving expenses and make sure that that relocation, it’s good for all the vendors and also the sellers do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Even if the Singleton Road landfill works out, there is going to be a lot of cost for preparing the site, but also a lot of costs on the vendors. You know, they will have to relocate after years and in various to this new market, there might be like a transitional time where they’re not able to sell at either place, kind of like a, you know, in-between time. And Erika’s real emphasis was like, we want commitments from the city to support us during that time because there’s just so much uncertainty ahead with this potential transition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Barajas: \u003c/strong>At the end of the day, City makes a lot of money on revenue from the sales, from the expenses that we pay from for income taxes. It will be helpful for all of us because we need each other. We are community and we need each other. Detainees is to help us and we will help the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Okay, So this landfill has really risen to the top as it sounds like the most viable option so far. But is this a good idea? I’m curious what residents nearby the landfill think.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>They mostly were just like, we have a lot of questions about this. And again, there was this thinking of like, we’ve heard it all before. We’ve heard they’re going to develop Singleton Road Landfill. We’ll believe it when we see it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lilia Gaspar: \u003c/strong>For the longest time, there was a proposal, but again, nothing has passed because this landfill is full of, you know, topics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>I talked to Lillia Gasper. She’s actually lived right next to the landfill almost her entire life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lilia Gaspar: \u003c/strong>Cherry Orchard We’re over here on land where a lunch on waste that used to be all cherry orchards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>She just kind of painted this a picture of someone who’s lived there for a long time. And I think, you know, her concerns and concerns of other residents I talked to largely had to do with, like traffic. Right. How is this all going to work if you have thousands of people coming in to shop in their neighborhood at the potential future flea market?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lilia Gaspar: \u003c/strong>We already have a big issue right now of the jungle of the homeless encampment. It will just create more problems on top of it to poorer neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>And I think they also expressed just feeling like they had needs already in their neighborhood, that they felt that the city hadn’t done a great job of addressing, namely, in their minds, homeless encampments and blight and a feeling like, oh, there’s going to be focus on the flea market. What about the existing problems that we have in our neighborhoods? So we’ve talked a lot about like all that the city has to address on the vendor side of things to make this potential move happen. There’s a whole nother piece of this about talking to the neighbors who currently live around the Singleton Road Landfill and making them feel like this is a good idea, a good addition for their neighborhood as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I mean, also, this is an abandoned landfill, which makes me wonder, is it safe? I mean, if people are going to be working there all day and walking around and I don’t know, what do experts say about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>You know, the landfill has been closed for decades, but there’s still actively methane being released from this site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriel Filippelli: \u003c/strong>In general, this kind of reuse using the surface of the landfill for another activity is valuable. And it’s done in a lot of other places and it can can be safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>I talked to Gabriel Filippelli. He’s executive director of the Indiana University Environmental Resilience Institute. He’s also a landfill expert. This is the kind of stuff he studies often. And he said, look like, you know, it can happen. This kind of reuse for former landfills is viable. But he says there’s still questions that will have to be answered and work that will have to be done in advance of this potential transformation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriel Filippelli: \u003c/strong>You always have to remember that you are sitting on a pile of material that has the potential to release toxins. So if you keep monitoring it, you have to keep checking it. And of course, if there’s any seismic disruption or digging or trenching, you have to pay extra special care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>We live in an area with earthquakes. Bad things could happen to the landfill if there’s an earthquake and it’s not there’s not structural integrity. So there’s a lot of boxes that would have to be checked. But generally, Philip Kelley said this is the kind of thing, this kind of reuse that can be done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, looking ahead, guy, how long do people have to find this site? What’s the timeline here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So under the agreement that the city reached with the owners of the current flea market, they have to give a one year notice for when they want to close the market and evict the vendors. So the earliest date when those evictions could happen is January 1st of 2025. But it could close a lot later than that. Right. The owners of the market right now haven’t found someone to do this massive development at the burial site. That could go on for years. Who knows? Given the current state of commercial real estate. So it’s kind of a mix of like, okay, this is far in the future. But also we don’t want to be complacent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Wherever it is, La Pulga ends up. What’s at stake with this decision to find a new site? I mean, like it seems really important that the city finds a space to like both build housing near transit, which we all know needs to happen in the Bay Area, but also find a new place for these vendors who’ve been there for many, many years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean, think about all the attention that the Westfield Mall closure got in San Francisco, right? That was like 50 stores. This is almost 500. You know, this is a would be a massive displacement of small businesses, many of whom are immigrants. There’s the economic component to this. There’s like this is a landmark within the city. I think right now we see where is the commitment of the city government. We know budget times are tight in San Jose. We just had this big fight over city employee pay that we talked about recently on the bay. So this move to Singleton landfill, potentially, it’s not going to be cheap. There’s going to have to be the mitigation and preparing the site for this. So it’s going to take more money from the city government to make this happen. But it might also present really the best chance to keep this landmark alive. So what kind of emphasis is this for the city moving forward?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s an interesting way to think about it. And I guess it’s like, who is the future of San Jose for? Like who do we make room for?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and this is, you know, I think there can be, like, a thinking of the flea market as like, oh, this is kind of just like a side hustle thing that people do. For about 75% of the vendors, this is their primary source of income. So this is just like this is like an economic cliff that’s staring in the face of hundreds of vendors here. So San Jose has these goals of building, you know, dense housing near transit. Can you accomplish that while also maintaining your goal of supporting small businesses, supporting like the cultural vitality that makes San Jose a dope place to live and be like those two goals? I’m sure the city has both of those. This is a real test of can they achieve both at the same time?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much, Guy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Absolutely. My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was Guy Marzorati, a political correspondent for KQED and producer of the Political Breakdown podcast, which you can find wherever you found the bay. Guy is based in San Jose. This 25 minute conversation with Guy was cut down and edited by producer María Esquinca. It was produced and scored by me. Also, if you like the Bay, prove it. Leave us a rating on Apple Podcasts. It helps other people to find our show. The Bay is a production of KQED in San Francisco. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Peace.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"excerpt": "San Jose city leaders are looking for a new site for the nearly 500 vendors at the Berryessa Flea Market, The Singleton Road landfill has risen to the top. Is an abandoned landfill the right place for a new flea market?",
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"description": "San Jose city leaders are looking for a new site for the nearly 500 vendors at the Berryessa Flea Market, The Singleton Road landfill has risen to the top. Is an abandoned landfill the right place for a new flea market?",
"title": "A New Home for La Pulga? | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">San Jose city leaders are looking for a new site for the nearly 500 vendors at the Berryessa Flea Market, which will be moved to make way for the new Berryessa BART Urban Village. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Singleton Road landfill has risen to the top. Is an abandoned landfill the right place for a new flea market?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC6882371058&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Links: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11960306/why-the-future-of-san-joses-flea-market-could-be-an-abandoned-landfill\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why the Future of San José’s Flea Market Could Be an Abandoned Landfill\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to the Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. The nearly 500 small business owners who make up San Jose’s iconic Berryessa flea market are trying to find a new home. They’re making way for the new Berryessa BART urban village, the kind of thing that everyone says the Bay Area needs more of if we want to address our region’s housing crisis. And now, the city of San jose says it has an idea for where to put the market; an abandoned landfill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>It might also present really the best chance to keep this landmark alive. So what kind of emphasis is this for the city moving forward?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, the struggle to find a new home for La Pulga and why a landfill has risen to the top.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Guy, can you just remind us, where are we at right now in the sort of long saga of La Pulga? Like, where do things stand right now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Right now, vendors at the San Jose Berryessa flea market are dealing with kind of an unknown closure date.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Guy Marzorati is a political correspondent for KQED. He also produces the Political Breakdown podcast. He’s based in San Jose.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>It could come as soon as 2025. So what’s happening right now is kind of this scramble to find a new site. The flea market is still operating, but it does have this uncertain future. This goes back a number of years. The owners of the flea market have had a desire to redevelop the current site housing, retail around transit because BART is now in North San Jose at various and big picture like this is kind of what the city is pushing for. They want that kind of dense housing development near transit. But the flip side of that is that development, if it happens, would mean the end of the flea market as we know it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>And this would be a huge blow to San Jose, both culturally but also economically. I mean, this if you take the flea market kind of as a whole, it would be a top 50 employer in the city. It is the densest concentration of small businesses that we have in the South Bay. So it’s an incredibly stressful time for a lot of vendors. For most of them, this is a primary source of income. So are, you know, trying to find this new site with the city. I will say the city was able to extract some concessions from the owner of the flea market, most notably putting money in a pot that will be used for finding a new site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And how much money was put in that pot to help them find a new site?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>The owners, the flea market and the city are putting a $7.5 million into this fund that’s aimed at helping vendors, both when the market closes just financially, but also putting staff time and hiring consultants to identify a new site potentially.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean Guy, La Pulga is this like very unique, sprawling market. We’re talking about 460 vendors. What are some of the things that the city needs to consider as it looks for a new location for the market? I mean, it sounds really hard to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s really hard. I mean, look, in the Bay Area, land is incredibly expensive. And for a flea market of this size, you’re going to need a large piece of land. Most of the prime real estate, you know, conveniently located parcels were grabbed up years ago, let alone one of the size the, you know, dozens and dozens of acres you need for a site like this. And that’s how you get to a situation where the city of San Jose is saying the best place that we have for this landmark is a landfill. So there were five ideas brought forward by the consultant as like most viable for a future site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>There was the Santa Clara County Fairgrounds. There was the former Sears Department store at the Eastridge Mall, which would be an indoor site. There was a small piece of land that could potentially exist at various in a future development. Then there was this idea of like just having vendors set up shop in vacant storefronts throughout the city. And then there was the former landfill on Singleton Road, and that has really risen to the top of the list in the mind of city officials.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Okay. So tell us about this landfill. Where is it? Exactly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So it’s pretty centrally located right in the middle of San Jose is right off of Capital Expressway. It’s not far from Highway one, two, one, and it’s 90 acres, so there’s plenty of room there for vendors, plenty of room there for parking. And so it really fits a lot of the criteria that the city would be looking for in a potential new site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And what is there or I guess what used to be there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So it’s still right in the Seven Trees neighborhood. So there’s folks who are living all around this landfill back in the sixties and seventies. It was home to private and municipal dumps, those largely closed by the late seventies. And since then, this huge piece of land has just been sitting vacant smack in the middle of San Jose.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, what does the landfill look like now, and what has the city tried to do with it in the past?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Right now, the landfill just looks like a massive abandoned field. It’s really just these flare stacks, which kind of look like big pipes that let you know that this used to be a landfill. They’re still standing. They’re burning off methane, But there’s not much going on there now. I mean, some city inspectors actually found roosters at the landfill last year being raised for cockfighting. But there’s fences all around it. So public access is pretty limited. And their security there now, pretty much ever since the landfill closed in the late seventies, there have been ideas on what to do with it, to turn it into a golf course, to use the methane releases to create a power plant. There was even a local ballot measure in San Jose back in 2000 to fund the sports complex here, but none of those ideas came to fruition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Why has this landfill kind of risen to the top of the list?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think it breaks down to me for three reasons. Number one, the city owns this land. Like, that’s a huge piece of this because land is so expensive in the area. Finding a site where the city already owns clears out a huge amount of costs and just time that it would take to acquire a site. The second thing is the size. You’re talking about a 65 acre flea market as it exists currently. The Singleton landfills 90 acres. So it has room to basically house all the vendors that are at the flea market today, plus parking. And then the third is location.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Klein: \u003c/strong>Which carries a lot of traffic. It’s near a lot of other things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>I talked to Nancy Klein, who’s the city’s director of economic development, cultural affairs. She pointed to the location piece of this as, look, we know a lot of people that go to LA, although currently are coming from all over the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Klein: \u003c/strong>It has a similar profile in terms of several different transportation ways. So that makes it positive. It’s not as in some of the other sites which are quite a distance away on a road that makes would be terrible traffic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>She points to Singleton Road Landfill as having that advantage because it’s right off of 101. It’s near Capital Expressway. You have those major arteries that wouldn’t exist if you’d like, you know, stuck this in some open land in Morgan Hill or something.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, that makes sense to me. It’s city owned land. It’s big enough. It’s near some really important roadways. What do vendors think of this idea?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>All along really the top priority I’ve heard from vendors both on this advisory group that’s kind of leading this process. And also folks who aren’t is keeping the market together. They know that there’s just this natural cross-pollination of businesses at La Pulga. You know, maybe you go to the market, you’re looking for like home goods or something. But while you’re there, your kids are with you. You buy them some candy, you buy them Agua Fresca. Like, there’s just this natural cross-currents that happens between businesses that is so important to keeping the market thriving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>And then if you split up the vendors into smaller locations all over the city, you might not get that Singleton would accomplish that. There’d be this opportunity like, we can keep the market together, but vendors have a lot of questions left to be answered about the site and also just about the process and timeline going forward. And so that’s really been at play in these meetings of the flea market vendor advisory group. They’ve met three times so far.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Klein: \u003c/strong>Around because we are a big community. We are…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So I talked to Erika Barajas. She’s been a vendor at the market for years selling clothing. And her real feeling was like, yes, maybe, you know, Singleton has a lot of promise, but she really wants the city to commit to stepping up its support during this time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Barajas: \u003c/strong>So I want to hear from the city on our next meeting that if we decide to go with them, whether are going to be committed to us and guarantee timely free meals and also moving expenses and make sure that that relocation, it’s good for all the vendors and also the sellers do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Even if the Singleton Road landfill works out, there is going to be a lot of cost for preparing the site, but also a lot of costs on the vendors. You know, they will have to relocate after years and in various to this new market, there might be like a transitional time where they’re not able to sell at either place, kind of like a, you know, in-between time. And Erika’s real emphasis was like, we want commitments from the city to support us during that time because there’s just so much uncertainty ahead with this potential transition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Barajas: \u003c/strong>At the end of the day, City makes a lot of money on revenue from the sales, from the expenses that we pay from for income taxes. It will be helpful for all of us because we need each other. We are community and we need each other. Detainees is to help us and we will help the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Okay, So this landfill has really risen to the top as it sounds like the most viable option so far. But is this a good idea? I’m curious what residents nearby the landfill think.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>They mostly were just like, we have a lot of questions about this. And again, there was this thinking of like, we’ve heard it all before. We’ve heard they’re going to develop Singleton Road Landfill. We’ll believe it when we see it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lilia Gaspar: \u003c/strong>For the longest time, there was a proposal, but again, nothing has passed because this landfill is full of, you know, topics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>I talked to Lillia Gasper. She’s actually lived right next to the landfill almost her entire life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lilia Gaspar: \u003c/strong>Cherry Orchard We’re over here on land where a lunch on waste that used to be all cherry orchards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>She just kind of painted this a picture of someone who’s lived there for a long time. And I think, you know, her concerns and concerns of other residents I talked to largely had to do with, like traffic. Right. How is this all going to work if you have thousands of people coming in to shop in their neighborhood at the potential future flea market?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lilia Gaspar: \u003c/strong>We already have a big issue right now of the jungle of the homeless encampment. It will just create more problems on top of it to poorer neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>And I think they also expressed just feeling like they had needs already in their neighborhood, that they felt that the city hadn’t done a great job of addressing, namely, in their minds, homeless encampments and blight and a feeling like, oh, there’s going to be focus on the flea market. What about the existing problems that we have in our neighborhoods? So we’ve talked a lot about like all that the city has to address on the vendor side of things to make this potential move happen. There’s a whole nother piece of this about talking to the neighbors who currently live around the Singleton Road Landfill and making them feel like this is a good idea, a good addition for their neighborhood as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I mean, also, this is an abandoned landfill, which makes me wonder, is it safe? I mean, if people are going to be working there all day and walking around and I don’t know, what do experts say about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>You know, the landfill has been closed for decades, but there’s still actively methane being released from this site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriel Filippelli: \u003c/strong>In general, this kind of reuse using the surface of the landfill for another activity is valuable. And it’s done in a lot of other places and it can can be safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>I talked to Gabriel Filippelli. He’s executive director of the Indiana University Environmental Resilience Institute. He’s also a landfill expert. This is the kind of stuff he studies often. And he said, look like, you know, it can happen. This kind of reuse for former landfills is viable. But he says there’s still questions that will have to be answered and work that will have to be done in advance of this potential transformation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriel Filippelli: \u003c/strong>You always have to remember that you are sitting on a pile of material that has the potential to release toxins. So if you keep monitoring it, you have to keep checking it. And of course, if there’s any seismic disruption or digging or trenching, you have to pay extra special care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>We live in an area with earthquakes. Bad things could happen to the landfill if there’s an earthquake and it’s not there’s not structural integrity. So there’s a lot of boxes that would have to be checked. But generally, Philip Kelley said this is the kind of thing, this kind of reuse that can be done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, looking ahead, guy, how long do people have to find this site? What’s the timeline here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So under the agreement that the city reached with the owners of the current flea market, they have to give a one year notice for when they want to close the market and evict the vendors. So the earliest date when those evictions could happen is January 1st of 2025. But it could close a lot later than that. Right. The owners of the market right now haven’t found someone to do this massive development at the burial site. That could go on for years. Who knows? Given the current state of commercial real estate. So it’s kind of a mix of like, okay, this is far in the future. But also we don’t want to be complacent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Wherever it is, La Pulga ends up. What’s at stake with this decision to find a new site? I mean, like it seems really important that the city finds a space to like both build housing near transit, which we all know needs to happen in the Bay Area, but also find a new place for these vendors who’ve been there for many, many years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean, think about all the attention that the Westfield Mall closure got in San Francisco, right? That was like 50 stores. This is almost 500. You know, this is a would be a massive displacement of small businesses, many of whom are immigrants. There’s the economic component to this. There’s like this is a landmark within the city. I think right now we see where is the commitment of the city government. We know budget times are tight in San Jose. We just had this big fight over city employee pay that we talked about recently on the bay. So this move to Singleton landfill, potentially, it’s not going to be cheap. There’s going to have to be the mitigation and preparing the site for this. So it’s going to take more money from the city government to make this happen. But it might also present really the best chance to keep this landmark alive. So what kind of emphasis is this for the city moving forward?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s an interesting way to think about it. And I guess it’s like, who is the future of San Jose for? Like who do we make room for?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and this is, you know, I think there can be, like, a thinking of the flea market as like, oh, this is kind of just like a side hustle thing that people do. For about 75% of the vendors, this is their primary source of income. So this is just like this is like an economic cliff that’s staring in the face of hundreds of vendors here. So San Jose has these goals of building, you know, dense housing near transit. Can you accomplish that while also maintaining your goal of supporting small businesses, supporting like the cultural vitality that makes San Jose a dope place to live and be like those two goals? I’m sure the city has both of those. This is a real test of can they achieve both at the same time?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much, Guy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Absolutely. My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was Guy Marzorati, a political correspondent for KQED and producer of the Political Breakdown podcast, which you can find wherever you found the bay. Guy is based in San Jose. This 25 minute conversation with Guy was cut down and edited by producer María Esquinca. It was produced and scored by me. Also, if you like the Bay, prove it. Leave us a rating on Apple Podcasts. It helps other people to find our show. The Bay is a production of KQED in San Francisco. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Peace.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "california-is-on-the-verge-of-banning-caste-discrimination",
"title": "California is On the Verge of Banning Caste Discrimination",
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"headTitle": "California is On the Verge of Banning Caste Discrimination | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California might become the first state in the nation to ban discrimination based on caste, a hierarchical system based on birth that affects South Asians all over the world. Senate Bill 403, which was introduced by State Sen. Aisha Wahab, passed the state legislature and is now on Gov. Gavin Newsom’s desk for his signature or veto. In this episode that originally aired in June, reporter Sonia Paul breaks down the complexity of this issue and why it has divided South Asians in the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode originally aired on June 5, 2023.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guest: \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/sonipaul?lang=en\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Sonia Paul\u003c/a>, freelance journalist\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC6014120120\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Links: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/08/sb-403-california-caste-discrimination-bill-cisco/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How a Bill to Ban Caste Discrimination Morphed Into a Fight About Wokism\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/newsletters/whatmatters/2023/09/caste-discrimination-bill-2/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California lawmakers send caste discrimination bill to Newsom\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to The Bay. Local News to Keep You Rooted. Governor Gavin Newsom’s got a stack of bills sitting on his desk waiting for either a signature or his veto. Among them is SB 403, a bill that has divided the South Asian community. It’s a first of its kind attempt to ban discrimination statewide because of someone’s caste, a hierarchy based on birth. That affects South Asians all over the world. It’s an attempt by members of lower, more oppressed castes to get protections under the law.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Speaker 1 at townhall: \u003c/strong>As a Nepali, Hindu Dalit, I have experienced caste discrimination multiple times in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>But ever since the bill was introduced, there’s been a strong backlash from people who see it as an attack on their Hindu faith.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Speaker 2 at townhall: \u003c/strong>We [feel] like SB 403 is polluting the harmony and the peace we know and seeing hatred in the hearts and minds of the people, which was very obvious from the gathering outside we just faced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And even though the bill has passed the legislature and just needs Newsom’s signature to become law, the two sides are not letting up. Supporters are currently on a hunger strike until Newsom signs the bill, and those against it are calling on the governor to veto it. So today we’re re-upping this episode that we did with freelance journalist Sonia Paul about the origins of this bill in Silicon Valley and why it has divided the South Asian community right here in the Bay Area. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>When I was growing up, I was thinking less about caste and more about just having a mixed identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Sonia Paul is a freelance journalist based in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>My family comes from India and the Philippines. We grew up with multiple religions and so broadly speaking, one of the reasons I’m attracted to reporting on caste is that it’s reporting on a minority within a minority.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Harsha Pilli: \u003c/strong>I had one privileged caste manager.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>Harsha Pilli is a tech worker. He’s at Microsoft right now. He was working for a company and he prefers not to name that particular company. He was hired by an American manager.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Harsha Pilli: \u003c/strong>And first here I had a good performance appraisal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>And then at one point an Indian manager came on board. One of the first questions he asked Harsha, Oh, how do you pronounce your last name?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Harsha Pilli: \u003c/strong>And is it Pill-eye? Or Pill-ee?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>Depending on the pronunciation of his last name, it would indicate a different caste background.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Harsha Pilli: \u003c/strong>Pill-eye in South India is an affluent caste last name and Pilli, in our native language in Telugu, only the majority of Dalit communities have that last name.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>At that time, Harsha didn’t think too too much of it. And then when he got his performance appraisals, he had really low marks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Harsha Pilli: \u003c/strong>And for the last three months of that particular financial year, I had been given a zero, putting me in the not met category again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>A different manager came on board, not that Indian manager, and he once again had really excellent reports. And so he put two and two together and he thought to himself like, Oh, I think this is, you know, caste discrimination, whether consciously or unconsciously. This manager was biased against me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Harsha Pilli: \u003c/strong>I know, because from my birth I have experienced these discriminations. It is one of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>It’s our advice him to go to the legal department of his company and the legal department launched an investigation. But eventually that legal department concluded that there was no evidence of caste discrimination. He told me, like, I’m pretty sure it’s because of the absence of the term CAS and the ability for them to actually know what to look for. But he also said that he was willing to come forward about the story because he is now a citizen of the US.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Harsha Pilli: \u003c/strong>I wouldn’t have resorted. I wouldn’t have dared to escalate it because there are ramifications. Being on H-1Bs keeps a person vulnerable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, what is caste? Can you define it for people who don’t know what it is?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>Caste was first mentioned in ancient Vedic scriptures, which have formed the basis of Hinduism. But over time, caste has traveled throughout South Asia, manifests in all South Asian religions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Anupama Rao: \u003c/strong>Broadly, one can think about caste as a form of inherited privilege.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>So Anupama Rao is a professor and a historian at Columbia University and she has written a book about caste.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Anupama Rao: \u003c/strong>It is a system based on privilege that draws on birth. That is, you are born into a particular caste in South Asia. It’s very much associated with purity and pollution and labor. And you have the manual or the laboring castes called should Rise, who are at the bottom of this four fold hierarchy. And then the community that I worked with, Untouchables, who actually fall outside the caste fold. They’re the ones who perform degrading labor. They actually are spatially segregated. They often live outside villages and so forth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>And it manifests in the way they might have access to jobs or be able to seek education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Anupama Rao: \u003c/strong>Caste regulates social relationships that actually influences who you can eat with, who you can marry. So it is about diet, about sex and marriage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>And she talked a lot about how caste morphs and how it changes and how it’s constantly in evolution. It’s not one constant state when it comes to this kind of stereotypical pyramid that people might be familiar with When thinking about the caste system in a hierarchy, it’s typically divided into four groups. Broadly speaking, these four categories would be the priestly caste, the warrior caste, the merchant caste, the trader caste. But at the bottom would be Dalits. But they are actually technically outside that system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And is that the caste that Harsha is part of?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>Harsha identifies as adult. It’s really interesting. Adalat is the term that people formerly known as Untouchables would prefer to call themselves. In Hindi, it translates to broken or crushed. But instead of it being an identity of oppression for them, it’s like a reclamation of that identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I know because this is such a sensitive subject, you were talking about how it’s just been so difficult for you to even find anyone to talk with you about this. Why is that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>I think when it comes to people who have actually experienced caste discrimination, there’s so much retaliation that they fear. A lot of them have precarious immigration statuses, whether they’re on H-1B visas or perhaps even seeking asylum here. And so to go and try to, like, file a discrimination complaint about caste isn’t within their wherewithal, especially because some of them have said that the absence of caste as an explicit category makes it very difficult for them to explain what’s happening. The disclosure of cars for people who come from historically marginalized caste communities is itself a form of discrimination. Being outed is a form of discrimination. And typically people can sort of figure out a person’s caste background from their last name. But it’s not always that easy. It’s not always that obvious. And so there tends to be a series of questions that someone might ask to figure out what that person’s caste background is. It’s a way of locating that person on a hierarchy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Are there a lot of other stories like Harsha’s, where people here in the Bay Area are discriminated against because of their caste?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>The lawsuit that first, you know, galvanize a lot of attention on caste discrimination in the US, especially within the tech industry, was the Cisco lawsuit that came out in 2020. And almost immediately after that lawsuit, a group called Equality Labs received more than 250 complaints of caste discrimination at all these prominent tech companies. Mehta Netflix, Google and so on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Most of the public complaints about caste discrimination have come out of the tech world, in part because there are so many first generation South Asians working in Silicon Valley, many of them on H-1B visas. But Sonia says it’s not exclusive to tech. She’s also heard stories about nannies, field workers and other low wage workers who say they’ve faced caste discrimination, too. And now people want something to be done about it. One thing that has gotten people from both sides of this debate to really come out and speak on caste is this bill that State Senator Aisha Wahab has introduced. What is this bill and what would it do exactly?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>Senator Aisha Wahab represents parts of the South Bay and East Bay. She’s Afghan-American. She’s Muslim, although she has said she is not particularly religious, but she grew up hearing stories about caste and caste discrimination.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Aisha Wahab: \u003c/strong>I am honored to announce SB 403 ending discrimination on the basis of caste, a civil rights Bill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>And I think with the complaints that have come forward, this was one of her first priorities when she came into office. SB 403 intends to clarify existing anti-discrimination laws in California to say that cars is explicitly prohibited.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Aisha Wahab: \u003c/strong>As a woman of color, I am. I’m incredibly sensitive to the ways in which other cultures, faiths and beliefs are depicted, perceived and discussed in mainstream media, politics and our laws. The movement to raise the issue and protect vulnerable individuals that are being discriminated against based on caste starts in my region and my district.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>Senator Wahab felt it was necessary to explicitly name caste so that it’s clear, so that regulators know that it’s not allowed and there would be more processes in place for how to address caste discrimination. Since this bill came out, more and more people have come to their office thanking her, wanting this bill to pass. You know, we hear a lot about the push back, but she has gotten a lot of support from around the country and around the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It sounds like there has been a lot of support, a lot of people coming out and sharing their stories and really advocating for this bill. A lot of Senator Williams constituents thanking her. But I know there’s also been a lot of backlash. What has the backlash been about exactly?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>The introduction of this bill has opened up an old wound for a lot of people that has been festering for a long time, which is why are we talking about cars? This is something that we left behind. This is something that is not relevant to our communities. This is not something we teach our children. And this mostly comes from some Hindu groups and individuals. Although it’s not exclusive to the Hindu community, they tend to be the most vocal. And they’ll say that to talk about caste, to name it in our laws is going to be, quote unquote, Hindu phobic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Why is that Hindu phobic to a lot of people?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>They say even if caste manifests across South Asia, if it exists in all religions, it’s always popularly going to be understood with Hinduism. You know, when we teach about our religion or always talk about the caste system. Right. We’re it’s so much more than that. One of the first audio documentaries I ever reported actually was about a controversy among some Hindu activists and South Asian activists arguing over the correct representation of ancient Indian history in California middle school textbooks. And chief among their concerns was a representation of caste.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>People from the Hindu community. It sounds like our feeling targeted by this bill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>They say that. I think it’s also really interesting to think about when and why we’re hearing Hindu phobia. Like, I think there’s discrimination that exists against Hindus, but this rhetoric around Hindu phobia or things being anti-hindu have risen as we’ve seen more people from oppressed caste communities try to assert their rights. And critics of that term, Hindu phobia, because of the way we’re hearing it most often around caste protections, they believe that it’s merely trying to use racial and religious protections to deflect scrutiny away from caste.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Coming up, how caste and big feelings around SB 403 all came to a head in one Bay Area city. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Speaker at townhall: \u003c/strong>Good evening. I’d like to call the City Council meeting to order for April 18th, 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong> I know you actually went to a Fremont City Council meeting in April. That really speaks to how strongly people are feeling about this. What was the vibe?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>It was wild. I didn’t know really what was going to happen. I just heard. Oh. Fremont Mayor Lily May is going to issue a proclamation on Hindu phobia. And I was like, Wait, what? And I went, And there are crowds of people. I saw a lot of supporters of SB 403, the anti caste bill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Protesters: \u003c/strong>[chanting]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>Holding up their blue and yellow signs. And then I saw a lot of people holding white posters. They had like SB 403 equals Hindu phobia or Equality Labs is an anti-hindu organization. And as a crowd grew, it became like a ruckus. There were people arguing with each other, yelling at each other, saying, No, you be quiet. No, no, this or that. Like getting added about caste.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Montage of townhall: \u003c/strong>SB 403 is internalized hindu hatred, which has already been normalized in public discourse, will be institutionalized if passed. As a proud mom of two American kids attending Fremont Unified School District Schools, I love Fremont and I love this nation. My kids, like many of us Hindus, do not identify with caste. Our kids are not even aware of caste. The SB 403 bill is un-American and it violates our rights as Hindus. Dalit rights and human rights. And the city of Fremont must make a proclamation to address caste discrimination in the city. The lists are here are facing was tipped physical violence, housing discrimination and gender based violence. Instead of unity, we received harm and a violation of our rights. We feel like as SB 403 is polluting the harmony and the peace we know and seeding hatred in the hearts and minds of the people. It’s an attack on my faith and religion with a hidden agenda in the name of caste, and I strongly oppose this bill. SB 403. So, I’m here to talk about one of the symptoms of Hindu phobia, which we are seeing as a bill named SB 403.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It kind of sounds like a lot of people would actually rather not see caste be a thing here in the US.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>It’s interesting because we have like in the U.S., we’re very familiar with the myth of the model minority. And I think one of the things that we’re seeing in the way people are grappling or fighting is them also kind of grappling with this myth of caste-lessness that has so far been very dominant in our discussions of minority and diaspora communities. And it’s been in the last handful of years that we are hearing more from people from oppressed caste backgrounds who maybe didn’t have a voice in these immigrant communities before. And people on both sides of this bill, for example, SB 403. I’ll ask them like, why? Why do you believe the way you do? Why are you caught up in this movement? Or why don’t you think this bill should pass? They’ll say like, I don’t want the shadow of caste to be on my children. I don’t want them to have to deal with caste. And so there’s this catch 22 of in order for caste not to be relevant, we have to make it illegal for caste discrimination to occur. What you do when you do that, you automatically make caste relevant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>You put it to the forefront, even though a lot of people would rather it not be there, I guess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and the word itself carries a lot of baggage for people. They can’t even bring themselves to see the word caste. They will try to argue who actually brought caste to India. What it’s what is its real origins? You know, when people see that caste discrimination doesn’t exist. It’s a viewpoint that comes from having the inherited privilege of not having to think about caste or feel that’s relevant to your life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, speaking of this bill, what’s next for it? Does it have a chance at all at becoming law?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>Earlier this spring, there was a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing about this bill. It was a unanimous vote. Yes, let’s move the bill forward. Then there is a vote in the Senate and only one person dissented. In June and July, you’re going to have hearings in the assembly. And I think we’re going to see more interesting reactions to this bill. There’s already a representative in Silicon Valley, Rishi Kumar. He has come out and he says like it’s going to promote Hindu phobia. It is irrelevant and it’s going to be divisive. I think we’re waiting to hear more from other representatives. Senator Wahab has said that some of her colleagues are a little bit irritated at her for introducing this bill because as soon as she introduced it, their offices were slammed with phone calls, like numbering in the thousands of people vocalizing their support or vocalizing their dissent about the bill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I know Aisha Wahab has also gotten some like really nasty threats too, right? Can you talk about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>She and her colleagues have faced so much retaliation, death threats, abuse, rape threats. She had to be fitted for a bulletproof vest. She said she’s had people follow her and her colleagues as they walk back to their car. People also try to denigrate her identity. They’ll call her a Wahhabi. You know, for her last name, you know, being Muslim or jihadis or say, why don’t you introduce a bill about, you know, Muslims or something? Why are you going to denigrate Hindus?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, I mean, you’ve been wading through all of this controversy, Sonia, as a reporter, and I want to come back to you. I mean, you’ve been reporting on this for years. What has it been like for you to report on caste in the United States?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>It’s been interesting and frustrating. And mind boggling. But I think there’s so much energy around this. There’s so much shame around cast. There’s so much drama around cars. And so I’m also learning how to be patient for the people I’d like to interview. I would also say on a broader level, it makes me think just about the stories we tell ourselves and the histories we know about ourselves and our communities and our families. Because I can understand, on the one hand, people who emigrate to a new country and they want to leave whatever shames of their old country behind. So this argument about the relevance of caste or why why are we talking about it? I don’t practice caste or caste discrimination. Yes. But as a few people have also told me, and as we’re seeing when we hear about complaints of discrimination, you have to address this on a systemic level. And I think because earlier generations of South Asian immigrants, especially Indian immigrants, have come from historically privileged caste communities. I think it’s a really interesting question. What does it mean when you have multiple generations of immigrants who have different experiences of being an immigrant? Because most of the allegations of caste discrimination are coming from first generation immigrants. Look at the demographic change of this region, given where the complaints of caste discrimination are so far coming from and the demographic changes that we’ve seen in the Bay Area, it’s a Bay Area story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Sonia, thank you so much for your reporting and for sharing it with us. I appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>Yeah, Thanks so much for having me on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>SB 403 passed the state Senate by a vote of 31 to 5. At the end of the day, the final version of the bill is a little more watered down than originally intended. For one, caste wouldn’t be explicitly banned as its own protected class in anti-discrimination laws. Instead, it’s tucked under ancestry. That was Sonia Paul, a freelance journalist, editor and instructor for Uncuffed. Since this episode first published, Sonia has done more reporting on this topic. She actually did a piece for Mother Jones on the politics of the bill. I highly recommend that read. I’ll leave you a link to it in our show notes. This episode, first published in June of this year. It was cut by senior editor Alan Montecillo, scored by me and producer Maria Esquinca, who added all the tape and the interview that you heard with Harsha Pilli originally aired on the BBC’s Documentary podcast. And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara. Thank you for listening. Talk to you next time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California might become the first state in the nation to ban discrimination based on caste, a hierarchical system based on birth that affects South Asians all over the world. Senate Bill 403, which was introduced by State Sen. Aisha Wahab, passed the state legislature and is now on Gov. Gavin Newsom’s desk for his signature or veto. In this episode that originally aired in June, reporter Sonia Paul breaks down the complexity of this issue and why it has divided South Asians in the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode originally aired on June 5, 2023.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guest: \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/sonipaul?lang=en\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Sonia Paul\u003c/a>, freelance journalist\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC6014120120\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Links: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/08/sb-403-california-caste-discrimination-bill-cisco/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How a Bill to Ban Caste Discrimination Morphed Into a Fight About Wokism\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/newsletters/whatmatters/2023/09/caste-discrimination-bill-2/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California lawmakers send caste discrimination bill to Newsom\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to The Bay. Local News to Keep You Rooted. Governor Gavin Newsom’s got a stack of bills sitting on his desk waiting for either a signature or his veto. Among them is SB 403, a bill that has divided the South Asian community. It’s a first of its kind attempt to ban discrimination statewide because of someone’s caste, a hierarchy based on birth. That affects South Asians all over the world. It’s an attempt by members of lower, more oppressed castes to get protections under the law.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Speaker 1 at townhall: \u003c/strong>As a Nepali, Hindu Dalit, I have experienced caste discrimination multiple times in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>But ever since the bill was introduced, there’s been a strong backlash from people who see it as an attack on their Hindu faith.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Speaker 2 at townhall: \u003c/strong>We [feel] like SB 403 is polluting the harmony and the peace we know and seeing hatred in the hearts and minds of the people, which was very obvious from the gathering outside we just faced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And even though the bill has passed the legislature and just needs Newsom’s signature to become law, the two sides are not letting up. Supporters are currently on a hunger strike until Newsom signs the bill, and those against it are calling on the governor to veto it. So today we’re re-upping this episode that we did with freelance journalist Sonia Paul about the origins of this bill in Silicon Valley and why it has divided the South Asian community right here in the Bay Area. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>When I was growing up, I was thinking less about caste and more about just having a mixed identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Sonia Paul is a freelance journalist based in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>My family comes from India and the Philippines. We grew up with multiple religions and so broadly speaking, one of the reasons I’m attracted to reporting on caste is that it’s reporting on a minority within a minority.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Harsha Pilli: \u003c/strong>I had one privileged caste manager.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>Harsha Pilli is a tech worker. He’s at Microsoft right now. He was working for a company and he prefers not to name that particular company. He was hired by an American manager.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Harsha Pilli: \u003c/strong>And first here I had a good performance appraisal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>And then at one point an Indian manager came on board. One of the first questions he asked Harsha, Oh, how do you pronounce your last name?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Harsha Pilli: \u003c/strong>And is it Pill-eye? Or Pill-ee?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>Depending on the pronunciation of his last name, it would indicate a different caste background.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Harsha Pilli: \u003c/strong>Pill-eye in South India is an affluent caste last name and Pilli, in our native language in Telugu, only the majority of Dalit communities have that last name.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>At that time, Harsha didn’t think too too much of it. And then when he got his performance appraisals, he had really low marks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Harsha Pilli: \u003c/strong>And for the last three months of that particular financial year, I had been given a zero, putting me in the not met category again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>A different manager came on board, not that Indian manager, and he once again had really excellent reports. And so he put two and two together and he thought to himself like, Oh, I think this is, you know, caste discrimination, whether consciously or unconsciously. This manager was biased against me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Harsha Pilli: \u003c/strong>I know, because from my birth I have experienced these discriminations. It is one of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>It’s our advice him to go to the legal department of his company and the legal department launched an investigation. But eventually that legal department concluded that there was no evidence of caste discrimination. He told me, like, I’m pretty sure it’s because of the absence of the term CAS and the ability for them to actually know what to look for. But he also said that he was willing to come forward about the story because he is now a citizen of the US.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Harsha Pilli: \u003c/strong>I wouldn’t have resorted. I wouldn’t have dared to escalate it because there are ramifications. Being on H-1Bs keeps a person vulnerable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, what is caste? Can you define it for people who don’t know what it is?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>Caste was first mentioned in ancient Vedic scriptures, which have formed the basis of Hinduism. But over time, caste has traveled throughout South Asia, manifests in all South Asian religions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Anupama Rao: \u003c/strong>Broadly, one can think about caste as a form of inherited privilege.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>So Anupama Rao is a professor and a historian at Columbia University and she has written a book about caste.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Anupama Rao: \u003c/strong>It is a system based on privilege that draws on birth. That is, you are born into a particular caste in South Asia. It’s very much associated with purity and pollution and labor. And you have the manual or the laboring castes called should Rise, who are at the bottom of this four fold hierarchy. And then the community that I worked with, Untouchables, who actually fall outside the caste fold. They’re the ones who perform degrading labor. They actually are spatially segregated. They often live outside villages and so forth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>And it manifests in the way they might have access to jobs or be able to seek education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Anupama Rao: \u003c/strong>Caste regulates social relationships that actually influences who you can eat with, who you can marry. So it is about diet, about sex and marriage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>And she talked a lot about how caste morphs and how it changes and how it’s constantly in evolution. It’s not one constant state when it comes to this kind of stereotypical pyramid that people might be familiar with When thinking about the caste system in a hierarchy, it’s typically divided into four groups. Broadly speaking, these four categories would be the priestly caste, the warrior caste, the merchant caste, the trader caste. But at the bottom would be Dalits. But they are actually technically outside that system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And is that the caste that Harsha is part of?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>Harsha identifies as adult. It’s really interesting. Adalat is the term that people formerly known as Untouchables would prefer to call themselves. In Hindi, it translates to broken or crushed. But instead of it being an identity of oppression for them, it’s like a reclamation of that identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I know because this is such a sensitive subject, you were talking about how it’s just been so difficult for you to even find anyone to talk with you about this. Why is that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>I think when it comes to people who have actually experienced caste discrimination, there’s so much retaliation that they fear. A lot of them have precarious immigration statuses, whether they’re on H-1B visas or perhaps even seeking asylum here. And so to go and try to, like, file a discrimination complaint about caste isn’t within their wherewithal, especially because some of them have said that the absence of caste as an explicit category makes it very difficult for them to explain what’s happening. The disclosure of cars for people who come from historically marginalized caste communities is itself a form of discrimination. Being outed is a form of discrimination. And typically people can sort of figure out a person’s caste background from their last name. But it’s not always that easy. It’s not always that obvious. And so there tends to be a series of questions that someone might ask to figure out what that person’s caste background is. It’s a way of locating that person on a hierarchy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Are there a lot of other stories like Harsha’s, where people here in the Bay Area are discriminated against because of their caste?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>The lawsuit that first, you know, galvanize a lot of attention on caste discrimination in the US, especially within the tech industry, was the Cisco lawsuit that came out in 2020. And almost immediately after that lawsuit, a group called Equality Labs received more than 250 complaints of caste discrimination at all these prominent tech companies. Mehta Netflix, Google and so on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Most of the public complaints about caste discrimination have come out of the tech world, in part because there are so many first generation South Asians working in Silicon Valley, many of them on H-1B visas. But Sonia says it’s not exclusive to tech. She’s also heard stories about nannies, field workers and other low wage workers who say they’ve faced caste discrimination, too. And now people want something to be done about it. One thing that has gotten people from both sides of this debate to really come out and speak on caste is this bill that State Senator Aisha Wahab has introduced. What is this bill and what would it do exactly?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>Senator Aisha Wahab represents parts of the South Bay and East Bay. She’s Afghan-American. She’s Muslim, although she has said she is not particularly religious, but she grew up hearing stories about caste and caste discrimination.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Aisha Wahab: \u003c/strong>I am honored to announce SB 403 ending discrimination on the basis of caste, a civil rights Bill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>And I think with the complaints that have come forward, this was one of her first priorities when she came into office. SB 403 intends to clarify existing anti-discrimination laws in California to say that cars is explicitly prohibited.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Aisha Wahab: \u003c/strong>As a woman of color, I am. I’m incredibly sensitive to the ways in which other cultures, faiths and beliefs are depicted, perceived and discussed in mainstream media, politics and our laws. The movement to raise the issue and protect vulnerable individuals that are being discriminated against based on caste starts in my region and my district.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>Senator Wahab felt it was necessary to explicitly name caste so that it’s clear, so that regulators know that it’s not allowed and there would be more processes in place for how to address caste discrimination. Since this bill came out, more and more people have come to their office thanking her, wanting this bill to pass. You know, we hear a lot about the push back, but she has gotten a lot of support from around the country and around the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It sounds like there has been a lot of support, a lot of people coming out and sharing their stories and really advocating for this bill. A lot of Senator Williams constituents thanking her. But I know there’s also been a lot of backlash. What has the backlash been about exactly?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>The introduction of this bill has opened up an old wound for a lot of people that has been festering for a long time, which is why are we talking about cars? This is something that we left behind. This is something that is not relevant to our communities. This is not something we teach our children. And this mostly comes from some Hindu groups and individuals. Although it’s not exclusive to the Hindu community, they tend to be the most vocal. And they’ll say that to talk about caste, to name it in our laws is going to be, quote unquote, Hindu phobic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Why is that Hindu phobic to a lot of people?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>They say even if caste manifests across South Asia, if it exists in all religions, it’s always popularly going to be understood with Hinduism. You know, when we teach about our religion or always talk about the caste system. Right. We’re it’s so much more than that. One of the first audio documentaries I ever reported actually was about a controversy among some Hindu activists and South Asian activists arguing over the correct representation of ancient Indian history in California middle school textbooks. And chief among their concerns was a representation of caste.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>People from the Hindu community. It sounds like our feeling targeted by this bill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>They say that. I think it’s also really interesting to think about when and why we’re hearing Hindu phobia. Like, I think there’s discrimination that exists against Hindus, but this rhetoric around Hindu phobia or things being anti-hindu have risen as we’ve seen more people from oppressed caste communities try to assert their rights. And critics of that term, Hindu phobia, because of the way we’re hearing it most often around caste protections, they believe that it’s merely trying to use racial and religious protections to deflect scrutiny away from caste.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Coming up, how caste and big feelings around SB 403 all came to a head in one Bay Area city. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Speaker at townhall: \u003c/strong>Good evening. I’d like to call the City Council meeting to order for April 18th, 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong> I know you actually went to a Fremont City Council meeting in April. That really speaks to how strongly people are feeling about this. What was the vibe?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>It was wild. I didn’t know really what was going to happen. I just heard. Oh. Fremont Mayor Lily May is going to issue a proclamation on Hindu phobia. And I was like, Wait, what? And I went, And there are crowds of people. I saw a lot of supporters of SB 403, the anti caste bill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Protesters: \u003c/strong>[chanting]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>Holding up their blue and yellow signs. And then I saw a lot of people holding white posters. They had like SB 403 equals Hindu phobia or Equality Labs is an anti-hindu organization. And as a crowd grew, it became like a ruckus. There were people arguing with each other, yelling at each other, saying, No, you be quiet. No, no, this or that. Like getting added about caste.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Montage of townhall: \u003c/strong>SB 403 is internalized hindu hatred, which has already been normalized in public discourse, will be institutionalized if passed. As a proud mom of two American kids attending Fremont Unified School District Schools, I love Fremont and I love this nation. My kids, like many of us Hindus, do not identify with caste. Our kids are not even aware of caste. The SB 403 bill is un-American and it violates our rights as Hindus. Dalit rights and human rights. And the city of Fremont must make a proclamation to address caste discrimination in the city. The lists are here are facing was tipped physical violence, housing discrimination and gender based violence. Instead of unity, we received harm and a violation of our rights. We feel like as SB 403 is polluting the harmony and the peace we know and seeding hatred in the hearts and minds of the people. It’s an attack on my faith and religion with a hidden agenda in the name of caste, and I strongly oppose this bill. SB 403. So, I’m here to talk about one of the symptoms of Hindu phobia, which we are seeing as a bill named SB 403.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It kind of sounds like a lot of people would actually rather not see caste be a thing here in the US.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>It’s interesting because we have like in the U.S., we’re very familiar with the myth of the model minority. And I think one of the things that we’re seeing in the way people are grappling or fighting is them also kind of grappling with this myth of caste-lessness that has so far been very dominant in our discussions of minority and diaspora communities. And it’s been in the last handful of years that we are hearing more from people from oppressed caste backgrounds who maybe didn’t have a voice in these immigrant communities before. And people on both sides of this bill, for example, SB 403. I’ll ask them like, why? Why do you believe the way you do? Why are you caught up in this movement? Or why don’t you think this bill should pass? They’ll say like, I don’t want the shadow of caste to be on my children. I don’t want them to have to deal with caste. And so there’s this catch 22 of in order for caste not to be relevant, we have to make it illegal for caste discrimination to occur. What you do when you do that, you automatically make caste relevant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>You put it to the forefront, even though a lot of people would rather it not be there, I guess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and the word itself carries a lot of baggage for people. They can’t even bring themselves to see the word caste. They will try to argue who actually brought caste to India. What it’s what is its real origins? You know, when people see that caste discrimination doesn’t exist. It’s a viewpoint that comes from having the inherited privilege of not having to think about caste or feel that’s relevant to your life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, speaking of this bill, what’s next for it? Does it have a chance at all at becoming law?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>Earlier this spring, there was a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing about this bill. It was a unanimous vote. Yes, let’s move the bill forward. Then there is a vote in the Senate and only one person dissented. In June and July, you’re going to have hearings in the assembly. And I think we’re going to see more interesting reactions to this bill. There’s already a representative in Silicon Valley, Rishi Kumar. He has come out and he says like it’s going to promote Hindu phobia. It is irrelevant and it’s going to be divisive. I think we’re waiting to hear more from other representatives. Senator Wahab has said that some of her colleagues are a little bit irritated at her for introducing this bill because as soon as she introduced it, their offices were slammed with phone calls, like numbering in the thousands of people vocalizing their support or vocalizing their dissent about the bill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I know Aisha Wahab has also gotten some like really nasty threats too, right? Can you talk about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>She and her colleagues have faced so much retaliation, death threats, abuse, rape threats. She had to be fitted for a bulletproof vest. She said she’s had people follow her and her colleagues as they walk back to their car. People also try to denigrate her identity. They’ll call her a Wahhabi. You know, for her last name, you know, being Muslim or jihadis or say, why don’t you introduce a bill about, you know, Muslims or something? Why are you going to denigrate Hindus?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, I mean, you’ve been wading through all of this controversy, Sonia, as a reporter, and I want to come back to you. I mean, you’ve been reporting on this for years. What has it been like for you to report on caste in the United States?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>It’s been interesting and frustrating. And mind boggling. But I think there’s so much energy around this. There’s so much shame around cast. There’s so much drama around cars. And so I’m also learning how to be patient for the people I’d like to interview. I would also say on a broader level, it makes me think just about the stories we tell ourselves and the histories we know about ourselves and our communities and our families. Because I can understand, on the one hand, people who emigrate to a new country and they want to leave whatever shames of their old country behind. So this argument about the relevance of caste or why why are we talking about it? I don’t practice caste or caste discrimination. Yes. But as a few people have also told me, and as we’re seeing when we hear about complaints of discrimination, you have to address this on a systemic level. And I think because earlier generations of South Asian immigrants, especially Indian immigrants, have come from historically privileged caste communities. I think it’s a really interesting question. What does it mean when you have multiple generations of immigrants who have different experiences of being an immigrant? Because most of the allegations of caste discrimination are coming from first generation immigrants. Look at the demographic change of this region, given where the complaints of caste discrimination are so far coming from and the demographic changes that we’ve seen in the Bay Area, it’s a Bay Area story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Sonia, thank you so much for your reporting and for sharing it with us. I appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sonia Paul: \u003c/strong>Yeah, Thanks so much for having me on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>SB 403 passed the state Senate by a vote of 31 to 5. At the end of the day, the final version of the bill is a little more watered down than originally intended. For one, caste wouldn’t be explicitly banned as its own protected class in anti-discrimination laws. Instead, it’s tucked under ancestry. That was Sonia Paul, a freelance journalist, editor and instructor for Uncuffed. Since this episode first published, Sonia has done more reporting on this topic. She actually did a piece for Mother Jones on the politics of the bill. I highly recommend that read. I’ll leave you a link to it in our show notes. This episode, first published in June of this year. It was cut by senior editor Alan Montecillo, scored by me and producer Maria Esquinca, who added all the tape and the interview that you heard with Harsha Pilli originally aired on the BBC’s Documentary podcast. And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara. Thank you for listening. Talk to you next time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On Monday, BART rolled out a new schedule and changes to its system. They’re calling it a “reimagined” service plan. Combine that with increased police and non-uniformed personnel, and it’s clear that BART is trying to make changes that woo riders back onto its trains. Will it work?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC2679903955\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to The Bay. Local News to Keep You Rooted. Bad news about BART just doesn’t surprise me anymore. The system has been struggling to get people on its trains again since the pandemic and has been battling a public relations crisis around crime and safety. That plus the delays and all the other problems that regular riders are probably used to seeing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Montage of listener voicemails: \u003c/strong>They often go home for Sunday dinner with the family and it’s often really delayed and it just feels inconsistent. It’s also already way too expensive. I used to actually be a regular BART right here. I do agree with a lot of the sentiment regarding the public that it’s just a little unfair.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>But this week, BART made some big changes to its system and the agency is hoping that it’s enough to bring people back and riders are hoping so, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Montage of listener voicemails: \u003c/strong>I definitely have noticed the new schedule this week and it’s been a welcome change. Overall, I’d really continue to root for BART and hope that they can figure out their financing. I really hope to see BART fully recover because it is a great service, but I want it to be better and I love it because I know that it’s not the best we deserve, but I want it to be better and it’s the best we have right now. Ugh, I have mixed feelings, I love BART and I hate BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today we’re talking with KQED, Dan Brakey, about all the changes BART just made to its system and the tall order. It’s got to win your heart back. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Dan Brekke is a transportation editor for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dan Brekke: \u003c/strong>One of the changes would be that no one would ever have more than a 20 minute wait. That would happen by actually reducing some of the weekdays service on the lesser traveled lines like the line between Richmond and Barry s, for instance, there would be an increase in service on the busiest line, which is the line between Pittsburgh, Bay Point and SFO, San Francisco International Airport. Now the trade off on that line is those trains are running every 10 minutes and those other lines like from Richmond to Barry s, they’re only running every 20 minutes. And if they sort of evened everything out, you could have trains all day, every day, every 20 minutes. It’s a big change. And there are some things that people are not totally in love with yet, but it seems to be working pretty well so far.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>A part of that change, too, is that they’re actually way less of the old legacy BART trains and more of the sort of new ones, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dan Brekke: \u003c/strong>Yes, that’s exactly right. BART made a sort of big production out of what it called the final trip by a legacy fleet train. These are cars that go back to the very beginning of BART. BART is 51 years old this month, and they’re looking a little beat right now. And so as part of this change service, BART is retiring. Those from regular service, you still may see them. What the service is supposed to feature each and every day for all service hours is it’s the brand new train. You know, these new cars represent a big advance in the customer experience in a lot of ways. But there are some things that people don’t like so much. The seating configuration is different. Some people find the seats too hard and stuff like that. But anyway, you have brand new cars, better ventilation and better signage and announcements and all of that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And then the trains are also going to be shorter, like actually fewer cars, right? What’s that about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dan Brekke: \u003c/strong>At the beginning of the pandemic, BART began running almost exclusively ten car trains. And that was because there was this concern about social distancing. There were many fewer people riding, but to make them feel comfortable, the trains were made longer than they typically had been earlier so that people could space themselves out on the cars. But BART is looking at a number of things that make it feel like it needed to change how it was managing those train lengths. So what they’ve done starting this week is to just run shorter trains on most lines like the one from Richmond to Barry S in the East Bay or from Dublin, Pleasanton to Daly City, for instance. They’re cutting the train lengths from the typical ten cars before to six cars. And then on that busy Pittsburgh Bay point to SFO line they’re cutting the train lengths to eight cars. And BART says it’s trying to do several things there. One thing running fewer cars actually saves maintenance costs and makes the system a little cheaper to run. They have fewer cars to clean. They can process a lot more of them a lot more quickly. They also say it will be easier to police the trains with both uniformed police officers, fare inspectors, crisis intervention specialists and community ambassadors that it’s easier to manage the shorter trains. And then there’s the idea that having shorter trains means, of course, the crowding is going to be more of a factor. There’s a denser population and having more people on the cars will discourage people from doing things that other passengers might not like so much. And finally, having the shorter trains means that people, when they want to ride in the front car, for instance, to be near a train operator, This is an issue for women passengers especially. They don’t have to wait all the way at the end of a lonely platform to do that. So that’s what BART’s up to with the shorter trains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I do feel like most of the talk about BART lately has been pretty negative. I mean, everyone kind of keeps talking about these fears of safety on BART, and I want to play this one voicemail that we actually got from Jimmy from San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jimmy from San Francisco \u003c/strong>One traumatic experience I remember actually was not too long ago, I was actually at the 16th Mission BART Station, and I recalled a couple of young juveniles had walked in the train. They sat right behind me, but I started smelling something. It turns out they were just lighting things on fire. I felt very uncomfortable. That ended up having to move to a different train. But, you know, I don’t think that’s the experience that most riders want to have. And I really think that BART to step down on its feet until they fix this issue. I don’t see myself coming back on BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I guess coming out of hearing what Jimmy just said. Like it sounds like these changes are an attempt to bring people like Jimmy back onto bar, it sounds like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dan Brekke: \u003c/strong>Absolutely. And the thinking, moving from the abstract that I was talking about to the specific now, I mean, the thinking is that if there were a lot of people on that train car, these two people who were doing something that was disturbing and dangerous wouldn’t do that. Now, there are some people who are very bold about what they’ll do, and maybe they wouldn’t be deterred by that. But anyway, that is the theory for sure. And that is a good example, that episode that he’s talking about of the kinds of things that people say they just don’t want to see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Can you give us a sense of what is going on in the minds of the people running the agency? Like, what is their motivation behind these changes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dan Brekke: \u003c/strong>Bottom line, they really need to get writers to return in large numbers much, much larger than they’ve seen so far. The state legislature has also weighed in on this. They want to see real improvements in public transit performance. And BART often comes up in these conversations before the state commits more money to public transit. That is really the long term thinking there. And the reason it’s so particularly important for BART is because historically it has depended on passengers to help run the railroad on a day to day basis. I mean, BART was paying, you know, depending on how you count the dollars, 60 to 70% of its operating costs from passenger fares. And, of course, that has crashed longer term. Voters in the Bay Area in all, nine counties are going to be asked at some point to pass some kind of tax measure that will provide permanent or at least very long term operating support for BART. And BART has to make the case that it’s worth a yes vote when that finally comes to the ballot, probably in 2026.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, I know it’s early, Dan, but do we know anything about whether these changes are actually working?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dan Brekke: \u003c/strong>Well, based on the first three days of ridership numbers, it seems to be working very, very well. On Monday, they had 158,000 riders, which was the best Monday they’ve had since March 2020. On Tuesday, they had 192,000 riders, which was their best day ever since the pandemic started. And then Wednesday, they were just a hair short of 193,000. So another record. So three days in a row they’ve had what amounts to record ridership. We know that there are things going on. We don’t know the impact of Dreamforce, for instance, this big convention that Salesforce holds in San Francisco, that’s adding to ridership to some extent. We don’t know exactly how much, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We did hear from a listener, Michelle from Livermore, who definitely loves BART, but who is, I think, one of the people who’s starting to notice the impact of these changes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Michelle from Livermore \u003c/strong>Just now tonight, I’m coming back from commuting and I know it’s Dreamforce, but with shorter, less amount of cars on the train. Oh my God. It was packed like New York City passed to where the operator had to tell people near the doors to give room so that people could leave as their stops to get out. So it’s going to take a little bit of choreography for people to understand, to move into the center as much as they can. Instead of hanging out by the doors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I love that little bit of choreography. I feel like that’s not something people have really had to think about on board anymore. But now, I mean, I’m like, remember when people would have to take off their backpacks to make room for other people in the bar, Jane’s den.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dan Brekke: \u003c/strong>That is just what I was thinking of. But what she’s talking about is, is the BART experience people had from, say, 2014 to 20 1819, especially that people didn’t love. But, you know, as Michelle said, it was reminiscent of New York. Guess what? New York is the number one transit friendly, if not entirely transit efficient city on the continent. And, you know, that’s the way you move around masses of people in a dense city. And so we’ll see. I mean, I think this is something BART is going to have to negotiate with its riders somewhat. They have already said that they’re watching crowding statistics very closely and that they will add longer trains as needed as the situation evolves, and especially if riders start to return. And even larger numbers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>People, I think, do want BART to work. And we actually got a voicemail from someone who acknowledges that like, yes, BART is a little rough around the edges, but we do just kind of want it to work. So here’s Gloria from Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Gloria from Oakland \u003c/strong>I have taken public transit as long as I have been getting around independently, kind of inspired by my late father, who always thought, if you want to experience the city, you’ve got to experience a public transit. So I guess I’m a bit of a BART loyalist. Sure, there are some frustrations with the system. I get super mad about delays, broken escalators, dirty cars. BART is not perfect, but I am a loyalist. I am mostly excited about the big changes, saying I hope it helps. BART gets groove back. I really can’t imagine living in the bay without BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, it makes me feel like warm and fuzzy. Like, I don’t know. I feel like BART is such a part of Bay Area life. And I would like for it to be part of Bay Area life in the future as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dan Brekke: \u003c/strong>And what’s really interesting to me about Gloria’s comment is that somebody who kind of is willing to take the world as it is, she’d like to like it to be a little bit better than she experiences it on BART sometimes. But she recognizes that the service is necessary beyond the simple convenience or maybe the delight that most people want to have in in their daily experiences. You know, this really isn’t just about BART. A lot of transit agencies are facing these big financial challenges, but it’s also about trying to persuade people to use transit instead of driving solo. You know, the Bay Area prides itself on being this transit rich, transit friendly area. But you know what? It really isn’t so much. Only one in 20 trips that people take in a bay area are by transit for commute trips. The most popular way of getting to work for forever has been to drive solo. And so the bigger question is how do you change that? And it’s a big deal. It’s a it’s part of the state’s climate goals. That’s a bigger challenge that is hanging over this entire discussion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, what do you think, Dan? Do you think that in the long run, all these changes are going to help? Is it is it going to be enough to save BART?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dan Brekke: \u003c/strong>I mean, I think BART in some form is here to stay. You know, it’ll be part of our lives to some extent, you know, ten or 20 or 30 years from now. What will it be like is the question, is it going to be a service that can handle that big commute or is it going to be something that, you know, frankly goes back to its early days where service was actually not very robust? The service was running on a shoestring, and it really isn’t part of people’s daily lives the way it has been in the more recent past. Here we are, three and a half years after that pandemic crash, and BART still isn’t at 50% of its weekday ridership. So BART’s trying to improve its public image, show that it’s responding to rider sentiment and providing the best service that people can reasonably expect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Dan, thank you so much for chatting with me about BART. I really appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dan Brekke: \u003c/strong>I really appreciate being asked to chat about it. I love talking to you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was Dan Brekke, a transportation editor for KQED. This 40-minute conversation with Dan was cut down and edited by producer Maria Esquinca. Alan Montecillo is our senior editor. He scored this episode and added all the tape. Also, a special shout out to all the Bay listeners who left us voicemails. I really loved hearing from Dave in Orinda. Michelle in Livermore, Denise, Gloria, Paul and Shane in Oakland and Jimmy and Zach out in San Francisco. Thank you so much for making this episode so much fuller. Thanks to your voicemails. And shout out as well to the rest of our podcast squad here at KQED. That’s Jen Chien, our director of podcasts; Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager; César Saldaña, our podcast engagement producer. And Holly Kernan, our Chief Content Officer. The Bay is a production of member-supported KQED in San Francisco. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Thanks so much for listening. Peace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On Monday, BART rolled out a new schedule and changes to its system. They’re calling it a “reimagined” service plan. Combine that with increased police and non-uniformed personnel, and it’s clear that BART is trying to make changes that woo riders back onto its trains. Will it work?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC2679903955\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to The Bay. Local News to Keep You Rooted. Bad news about BART just doesn’t surprise me anymore. The system has been struggling to get people on its trains again since the pandemic and has been battling a public relations crisis around crime and safety. That plus the delays and all the other problems that regular riders are probably used to seeing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Montage of listener voicemails: \u003c/strong>They often go home for Sunday dinner with the family and it’s often really delayed and it just feels inconsistent. It’s also already way too expensive. I used to actually be a regular BART right here. I do agree with a lot of the sentiment regarding the public that it’s just a little unfair.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>But this week, BART made some big changes to its system and the agency is hoping that it’s enough to bring people back and riders are hoping so, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Montage of listener voicemails: \u003c/strong>I definitely have noticed the new schedule this week and it’s been a welcome change. Overall, I’d really continue to root for BART and hope that they can figure out their financing. I really hope to see BART fully recover because it is a great service, but I want it to be better and I love it because I know that it’s not the best we deserve, but I want it to be better and it’s the best we have right now. Ugh, I have mixed feelings, I love BART and I hate BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today we’re talking with KQED, Dan Brakey, about all the changes BART just made to its system and the tall order. It’s got to win your heart back. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Dan Brekke is a transportation editor for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dan Brekke: \u003c/strong>One of the changes would be that no one would ever have more than a 20 minute wait. That would happen by actually reducing some of the weekdays service on the lesser traveled lines like the line between Richmond and Barry s, for instance, there would be an increase in service on the busiest line, which is the line between Pittsburgh, Bay Point and SFO, San Francisco International Airport. Now the trade off on that line is those trains are running every 10 minutes and those other lines like from Richmond to Barry s, they’re only running every 20 minutes. And if they sort of evened everything out, you could have trains all day, every day, every 20 minutes. It’s a big change. And there are some things that people are not totally in love with yet, but it seems to be working pretty well so far.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>A part of that change, too, is that they’re actually way less of the old legacy BART trains and more of the sort of new ones, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dan Brekke: \u003c/strong>Yes, that’s exactly right. BART made a sort of big production out of what it called the final trip by a legacy fleet train. These are cars that go back to the very beginning of BART. BART is 51 years old this month, and they’re looking a little beat right now. And so as part of this change service, BART is retiring. Those from regular service, you still may see them. What the service is supposed to feature each and every day for all service hours is it’s the brand new train. You know, these new cars represent a big advance in the customer experience in a lot of ways. But there are some things that people don’t like so much. The seating configuration is different. Some people find the seats too hard and stuff like that. But anyway, you have brand new cars, better ventilation and better signage and announcements and all of that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And then the trains are also going to be shorter, like actually fewer cars, right? What’s that about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dan Brekke: \u003c/strong>At the beginning of the pandemic, BART began running almost exclusively ten car trains. And that was because there was this concern about social distancing. There were many fewer people riding, but to make them feel comfortable, the trains were made longer than they typically had been earlier so that people could space themselves out on the cars. But BART is looking at a number of things that make it feel like it needed to change how it was managing those train lengths. So what they’ve done starting this week is to just run shorter trains on most lines like the one from Richmond to Barry S in the East Bay or from Dublin, Pleasanton to Daly City, for instance. They’re cutting the train lengths from the typical ten cars before to six cars. And then on that busy Pittsburgh Bay point to SFO line they’re cutting the train lengths to eight cars. And BART says it’s trying to do several things there. One thing running fewer cars actually saves maintenance costs and makes the system a little cheaper to run. They have fewer cars to clean. They can process a lot more of them a lot more quickly. They also say it will be easier to police the trains with both uniformed police officers, fare inspectors, crisis intervention specialists and community ambassadors that it’s easier to manage the shorter trains. And then there’s the idea that having shorter trains means, of course, the crowding is going to be more of a factor. There’s a denser population and having more people on the cars will discourage people from doing things that other passengers might not like so much. And finally, having the shorter trains means that people, when they want to ride in the front car, for instance, to be near a train operator, This is an issue for women passengers especially. They don’t have to wait all the way at the end of a lonely platform to do that. So that’s what BART’s up to with the shorter trains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I do feel like most of the talk about BART lately has been pretty negative. I mean, everyone kind of keeps talking about these fears of safety on BART, and I want to play this one voicemail that we actually got from Jimmy from San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jimmy from San Francisco \u003c/strong>One traumatic experience I remember actually was not too long ago, I was actually at the 16th Mission BART Station, and I recalled a couple of young juveniles had walked in the train. They sat right behind me, but I started smelling something. It turns out they were just lighting things on fire. I felt very uncomfortable. That ended up having to move to a different train. But, you know, I don’t think that’s the experience that most riders want to have. And I really think that BART to step down on its feet until they fix this issue. I don’t see myself coming back on BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I guess coming out of hearing what Jimmy just said. Like it sounds like these changes are an attempt to bring people like Jimmy back onto bar, it sounds like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dan Brekke: \u003c/strong>Absolutely. And the thinking, moving from the abstract that I was talking about to the specific now, I mean, the thinking is that if there were a lot of people on that train car, these two people who were doing something that was disturbing and dangerous wouldn’t do that. Now, there are some people who are very bold about what they’ll do, and maybe they wouldn’t be deterred by that. But anyway, that is the theory for sure. And that is a good example, that episode that he’s talking about of the kinds of things that people say they just don’t want to see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Can you give us a sense of what is going on in the minds of the people running the agency? Like, what is their motivation behind these changes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dan Brekke: \u003c/strong>Bottom line, they really need to get writers to return in large numbers much, much larger than they’ve seen so far. The state legislature has also weighed in on this. They want to see real improvements in public transit performance. And BART often comes up in these conversations before the state commits more money to public transit. That is really the long term thinking there. And the reason it’s so particularly important for BART is because historically it has depended on passengers to help run the railroad on a day to day basis. I mean, BART was paying, you know, depending on how you count the dollars, 60 to 70% of its operating costs from passenger fares. And, of course, that has crashed longer term. Voters in the Bay Area in all, nine counties are going to be asked at some point to pass some kind of tax measure that will provide permanent or at least very long term operating support for BART. And BART has to make the case that it’s worth a yes vote when that finally comes to the ballot, probably in 2026.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, I know it’s early, Dan, but do we know anything about whether these changes are actually working?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dan Brekke: \u003c/strong>Well, based on the first three days of ridership numbers, it seems to be working very, very well. On Monday, they had 158,000 riders, which was the best Monday they’ve had since March 2020. On Tuesday, they had 192,000 riders, which was their best day ever since the pandemic started. And then Wednesday, they were just a hair short of 193,000. So another record. So three days in a row they’ve had what amounts to record ridership. We know that there are things going on. We don’t know the impact of Dreamforce, for instance, this big convention that Salesforce holds in San Francisco, that’s adding to ridership to some extent. We don’t know exactly how much, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We did hear from a listener, Michelle from Livermore, who definitely loves BART, but who is, I think, one of the people who’s starting to notice the impact of these changes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Michelle from Livermore \u003c/strong>Just now tonight, I’m coming back from commuting and I know it’s Dreamforce, but with shorter, less amount of cars on the train. Oh my God. It was packed like New York City passed to where the operator had to tell people near the doors to give room so that people could leave as their stops to get out. So it’s going to take a little bit of choreography for people to understand, to move into the center as much as they can. Instead of hanging out by the doors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I love that little bit of choreography. I feel like that’s not something people have really had to think about on board anymore. But now, I mean, I’m like, remember when people would have to take off their backpacks to make room for other people in the bar, Jane’s den.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dan Brekke: \u003c/strong>That is just what I was thinking of. But what she’s talking about is, is the BART experience people had from, say, 2014 to 20 1819, especially that people didn’t love. But, you know, as Michelle said, it was reminiscent of New York. Guess what? New York is the number one transit friendly, if not entirely transit efficient city on the continent. And, you know, that’s the way you move around masses of people in a dense city. And so we’ll see. I mean, I think this is something BART is going to have to negotiate with its riders somewhat. They have already said that they’re watching crowding statistics very closely and that they will add longer trains as needed as the situation evolves, and especially if riders start to return. And even larger numbers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>People, I think, do want BART to work. And we actually got a voicemail from someone who acknowledges that like, yes, BART is a little rough around the edges, but we do just kind of want it to work. So here’s Gloria from Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Gloria from Oakland \u003c/strong>I have taken public transit as long as I have been getting around independently, kind of inspired by my late father, who always thought, if you want to experience the city, you’ve got to experience a public transit. So I guess I’m a bit of a BART loyalist. Sure, there are some frustrations with the system. I get super mad about delays, broken escalators, dirty cars. BART is not perfect, but I am a loyalist. I am mostly excited about the big changes, saying I hope it helps. BART gets groove back. I really can’t imagine living in the bay without BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, it makes me feel like warm and fuzzy. Like, I don’t know. I feel like BART is such a part of Bay Area life. And I would like for it to be part of Bay Area life in the future as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dan Brekke: \u003c/strong>And what’s really interesting to me about Gloria’s comment is that somebody who kind of is willing to take the world as it is, she’d like to like it to be a little bit better than she experiences it on BART sometimes. But she recognizes that the service is necessary beyond the simple convenience or maybe the delight that most people want to have in in their daily experiences. You know, this really isn’t just about BART. A lot of transit agencies are facing these big financial challenges, but it’s also about trying to persuade people to use transit instead of driving solo. You know, the Bay Area prides itself on being this transit rich, transit friendly area. But you know what? It really isn’t so much. Only one in 20 trips that people take in a bay area are by transit for commute trips. The most popular way of getting to work for forever has been to drive solo. And so the bigger question is how do you change that? And it’s a big deal. It’s a it’s part of the state’s climate goals. That’s a bigger challenge that is hanging over this entire discussion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, what do you think, Dan? Do you think that in the long run, all these changes are going to help? Is it is it going to be enough to save BART?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dan Brekke: \u003c/strong>I mean, I think BART in some form is here to stay. You know, it’ll be part of our lives to some extent, you know, ten or 20 or 30 years from now. What will it be like is the question, is it going to be a service that can handle that big commute or is it going to be something that, you know, frankly goes back to its early days where service was actually not very robust? The service was running on a shoestring, and it really isn’t part of people’s daily lives the way it has been in the more recent past. Here we are, three and a half years after that pandemic crash, and BART still isn’t at 50% of its weekday ridership. So BART’s trying to improve its public image, show that it’s responding to rider sentiment and providing the best service that people can reasonably expect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Dan, thank you so much for chatting with me about BART. I really appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dan Brekke: \u003c/strong>I really appreciate being asked to chat about it. I love talking to you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was Dan Brekke, a transportation editor for KQED. This 40-minute conversation with Dan was cut down and edited by producer Maria Esquinca. Alan Montecillo is our senior editor. He scored this episode and added all the tape. Also, a special shout out to all the Bay listeners who left us voicemails. I really loved hearing from Dave in Orinda. Michelle in Livermore, Denise, Gloria, Paul and Shane in Oakland and Jimmy and Zach out in San Francisco. Thank you so much for making this episode so much fuller. Thanks to your voicemails. And shout out as well to the rest of our podcast squad here at KQED. That’s Jen Chien, our director of podcasts; Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager; César Saldaña, our podcast engagement producer. And Holly Kernan, our Chief Content Officer. The Bay is a production of member-supported KQED in San Francisco. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Thanks so much for listening. Peace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Nancy Pelosi is Running Again. Should She Step Aside?",
"headTitle": "Nancy Pelosi is Running Again. Should She Step Aside? | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Friday, Nancy Pelosi — former Speaker, minority leader, and representative in Congress since 1987 — announced plans to run again. KQED’s Marisa Lagos breaks down what this means for San Francisco amid debate over when a politician’s time is up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC9745622391\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>From KQED, I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to The Bay. Local News to Keep You Rooted. Nancy Pelosi has represented San Francisco in Congress since before I was even born. And everyone knows who she is. She’s a leader of the Democratic Party. Speaker of the House and Republicans most favorite punching bag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Political Ad Montage: \u003c/strong>First, Nancy Pelosi said she’d raise taxes. Now she’s coming for whatever you’ve got left to help pay for trillions in Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, they run Washington completely. A rubber stamp for Nancy Pelosi’s disastrous economics…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>On Friday, Pelosi announced plans to run to represent San Francisco in Congress for a 20th term. And it’s coming at a time when lots of people want to see some fresh, new leadership in politics. Today, the local and national impact of Pelosi’s decision to run again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Marisa, I know people have been speculating about whether Nancy Pelosi would retire, as we were just talking about. She’s 83 years old. What did she say about why she’s staying in the game?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I would say she sort of couched this in both local and kind of national terms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Marisa Lagos is a political correspondent for KQED and co-host of the Political Breakdown podcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>She talked about San Francisco values and her desire to kind of help the city with the big challenges it’s facing around the fentanyl crisis, around homelessness and housing. But then she also gave a nod to the kind of bigger forces at play here, democracy being at risk, really wanting to, I think, help, you know, Democrats win not just the House back, but keep the White House in 2024. You know, she spoke on MSNBC pretty soon after making this announcement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>So I am motivated to do everything I can to win this election. I think it’s urgent for our democracy, for our relationships worldwide, and more importantly, for every kitchen table discussion in our country about America’s working families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So that’s sort of what she says officially. But what’s your sort of take on it? Why is she really running again right now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>You know, Ericka, I’ve tried to get inside Nancy Pelosi’s head, and I think I have some ideas just from talking to folks around her. I think one is that she is still on top of her game.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>When you compare the way she’s operating to somebody, you know, like Dianne Feinstein, who’s had so much attention on her health, Pelosi has had, as far as we know, zero health problems. She’s super sharp. I think she’s kind of enjoying herself. She’s been a little bit unshackled. Now that she’s not the leader of the Democratic caucus. She can kind of speak her mind. And and I think probably it’s an easier and more fun job. It’s probably also really hard to step back and take yourself out of being in the mix and being so relevant. Right. She’s been doing this for basically most of my lifetime, and I think that that’s a hard thing to give up. And then I do think that there’s a lot of truth to this idea that she feels like this is a moment where she’s needed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>If you see the actions of the Republicans in Congress, you know that we have to win the election.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>You see this kind of similar vibe between her and Joe Biden, which is I think they see Donald Trump and the current Republican Party as such a threat. I think they feel like this is not the time for somebody with that level of experience, fundraising, prowess, all those things to kind of disappear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I don’t want to see any underutilized resources, any wasted time or any regrets the day after the election that we all didn’t do everything in our power to protect and defend, to make sure that our flag is still there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I also think that to some extent, the attack on her husband, that horrible attack on Paul Pelosi, kind of strengthened her resolve as well and made her want to stay in the game.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah. I mean, I was going to ask you about that because I remember seeing that and thinking like, geez, like why would anyone of her stature want to remain in the spotlight after something like that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Right. I mean, any attack would have been horrific. But this man broke into their home in the middle of the night looking for her. And I agree with you. I think normal people would say, oh, maybe I’m done. Politicians aren’t normal people. Let’s be real. Right. And I think and I do think for her, she has this history of being this punching bag for the right. And the way she’s always handled it is not to kind of shrink back from that. It’s to kind of rise to that occasion. It made her feel like, no, I’m not going to back down. Like, I’m not going to be bullied. I think as a woman of her age and generation and all the barriers she’s broken, like you can see how she’s often sort of run towards a challenge. And I think that this sort of tracks with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I mean, she’s probably going to win again, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I mean, she won with 84% of the vote last time, so I’m guessing it’ll be a walk in the park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, let’s talk about the local reaction to this news, Marisa. How would you characterize the general mood around Nancy Pelosi’s decision to run for Congress again?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I think among the general public, it’s a kind of mixed bag. I do think people are seeing her in the context of the Dianne Feinstein and Mitch McConnell’s and Joe Biden’s of the world, who, you know, polls show people feel like it’s time for them to move on. And so when you talk about a new generation of leadership, even if Pelosi is super energetic, I think it’s hard for a lot of people, especially on the younger side, to not see this as just another delay of this long, drawn out changing of the guard. She promised in 2018 that she would step aside as leader. So this is not like a new conversation. So I think what I’m hearing kind of in the more general public is some frustration. That said, again, I think most of those people will still vote for her come next November.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, what about the political class? How are people reacting locally to Pelosi’s decision to run again?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>So publicly, almost universally positive. I actually went on Friday to an Emily’s List lunch. This is a progressive women’s group that helps fund, raise and kind of seed campaigns. And I talked to Lateefah Simon, who is currently a bar board member and is running for Barbara Lee’s seat in Congress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>You know, I’m going to be in Congress soon, and I need the Maxine Waters, the Representative Clyburn, the Nancy Pelosi. It’s going to lead us to this next stage of battling to get some of the most basic rights for women back to security is on the line. The attack on trans kids. I mean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Lateefah is, you know, in her forties, young black woman, I think sort of part of this new generation of leadership and super progressive. And she, I think it’s fair to say, seemed pretty stoked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>About what a thrill to be able to be a phone call away, a couple of desks away from women who have fought and won huge victories for families. It’s exciting and it would be an honor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Did anyone voice concern publicly about Pelosi’s decision to run again?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>So I think, again, a lot of people are not eager to kind of say anything very publicly negative about Pelosi. I did, however, talk to Aimee Allison. She runs she the People, which is really dedicated to get women of color specifically into public office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>For those of us who want to see a new generation of leaders, it’s hard. 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Amy was circumspect. It’s not as if she was negative per se, but she did call it kind of disappointing. You know, talking about the desire to see this handing of the baton.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>We do need a new generation of leadership that looks like who lives in California, in the country. And that’s going to require people in their eighties to make space. And I’m not saying anything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>She probably speaks for a lot of people who, again, are not mad at Pelosi specifically, but are just frustrated by the broader political landscape right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>We can’t have in San Francisco or the Bay Area or anywhere in California, frankly, we can’t have the kind of generational leadership that continues on and on. Not only is it not possible, but it’s not a winning formula. So what I hope is that next.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, I know that in the meantime, there are some people who are sort of left waiting in the wings, maybe waiting for Pelosi to retire so that they could get their chance. So who are some of the younger folks locally who have been eyeing her seat?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I would say the two names that come up are State Senator Scott Wiener from San Francisco. Previous member of the Board of Supervisors has been a big leader on transit and transportation and housing and LGBT issues in Sacramento. He has made very clear that he does intend to run when Pelosi steps down and did say immediately on Friday that since she is running again, he’ll run for his seat again in the state Senate. The other big name is one that you might find familiar, Christine Pelosi, one of Nancy Pelosi’s children. She’s an activist in local Democratic politics, has been really out there on the MeToo movement. And she’s served on the Democratic Party here locally for many years as a lawyer and I think obviously is hopeful that her name might give her a little bit of a leg up. What’s fascinating to me is the kind of political dominoes, Game of Thrones, however you want to call it, that any sort of seat like this would create. So if Scott Weiner ran for Congress, Assembly member Matt Haney is thought to want to run for his Senate seat. San Francisco Supervisor Rafael Mandel man is thought to want to run for Haney’s seat. So you have, I think, her decision impacting not just the folks that are eyeing that congressional district, but everybody else who’s kind of waiting to see this stuff open up. And I think that that’s why we’ve seen in San Francisco in recent years some really brutal kind of Democrat on Democrat races. It’s because in some ways, a lot of these seats have not opened open in so long. These folks have been waiting already and this just delays it even further.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, this question of whether it’s time. Pelosi has been in office for more than 35 years. I mean, is that too long for someone to be in office?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>It’s a good question. I was six when she was first elected to Congress, so I now have two children older than that. So, you know, it’s it’s been a minute. It’s a long time. And I think that this is why you do hear some conversations about the question of, you know, age limits or some sort of term limits in Congress. But I do think that it’s an open question. And I think a lot of people are looking at somebody like her and wondering that same thing and kind of asking not just is it time for a new leadership, but like can people be effective after that long in office? But I have never seen a legitimate attempt in my time covering politics the last couple of decades to actually rein that in or do anything about it. Right. I feel like we’re talking about it now, but I haven’t seen anything concrete to actually sort of start that process and.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Marisa, Nancy Pelosi is this very national figure, but she has also represented San Francisco all this time. What are some of the big political winds of her career that have been felt here in the bay and in San Francisco in particular? Like what’s her local impact been over the years?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I mean, I will start with one that’s national but impacts all of us, which is the Affordable Care Act. That really was her crowning legislative achievement. Obviously, President Obama and Vice President Joe Biden deserve a lot of credit for that, but she really shepherded that through the Congress. But on the local level, I would say it’s the cheddar, baby. I mean, she brings home the money for the Bay Area. You know, if you look at our big infrastructure projects, transit, all of that sort of thing has been a big player. I think the most visible and sort of concrete thing you can look at is the Presidio. That would not exist as a national park if it were not for Nancy Pelosi. The federal government wanted to essentially sell it off to developers, and she stepped in and brokered this deal that said, look, it’ll become a national park, but it has to become self-sufficient. As you probably know, if you’ve been to the tunnel, top parks like it is continued to grow and really is one of the city’s crown jewels. And I’m looking back in time and I think this is something people in our generation might not even know or have forgotten is what a leader she was around the AIDS HIV crisis when she got to Congress. This was not an issue that most people in Washington, D.C. wanted to talk about. And despite her kind of Catholic background and the fact that she’s this like comes off to some people is so like establishment. She was a real leader in that and was very vocal from the minute she got to D.C. And so I do think that the LGBT community still really looks at her as a trailblazer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, I do think it is interesting that she was sort of this trailblazer when she first entered Congress, but now she really is sort of seen as someone who is very much part of the establishment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>She is part of the establishment. Like you can’t deny that regardless of whether she’s a pretty progressive member of the establishment or not. So I do think there’s times that she is not always in lockstep with the pulse of the city, per se. I mean, clearly, she is part of the establishment that has presided over the city for the past few decades as a lot of the problems she’s talking about trying to solve have gotten worse. That said, I think until this term, she’s kind of had the luxury of staying out of a lot of local issues, not that she hasn’t been involved again, behind closed doors, but you have not seen her out there being a pundit on a lot of the San Francisco debates over the past couple of decades. I think that’s probably largely because of her role as speaker and minority leader. You know, when you are representing a caucus of over 200 people from very diverse districts. You don’t get to be the San Francisco liberal all the time. Right? Like, you have to kind of look at things through the lens of how do I keep this group together? How do we win? It’s been kind of interesting to see her over the past year, get a little more involved, be a little more willing to weigh in on some of the local stuff. I mean, there’s certainly critics of her and her wealth and the money her husband has made and questions about that. But I do think a lot of those questions have been raised by people who already don’t agree with her politically.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>How do you think having a representative who is this like big national figure, how how do you think that’s different from having a congressperson to represent you who’s maybe like not as well known? I mean, I feel like no one really thinks of her as like just this representative from San Francisco. Right. Like, she’s Nancy Pelosi. Like not everyone has a congressperson to represent them who’s as famous as her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>No. Thank God, because there’s 435 of them. Right. We don’t have time to talk, I think in ways probably unseen to most of us. It matters even when Pelosi is not in the majority. I mean, Joe Biden’s going to take her phone call. She has a lot of power and just the longevity that exist when you’re in Washington for that long and, you know the people at the agencies and you know who to call and you have seniority within your caucus. Certainly when Nancy Pelosi steps down, it’s going to change the dynamic for San Francisco. There is a changing of the guard happening, and there’s going to be ways that that’s probably super great and exciting for people. And there might be ways that it makes things a little more challenging to advocate for resources or for power on committees. We are going to be in the next, let’s say, five years entering a place where we have two fairly junior senators from California and a lot of turnover within the congressional delegation. So it’ll be fascinating to watch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Marisa, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was Marisa Lagos, a political correspondent for KQED and co-host of the Political Breakdown podcast, which you can find wherever you are listening to the Bay. This 25 minute conversation with Marisa was cut down and edited by senior editor Alan Montecillo. I produced this one, scored it and added all the tape. If you liked this episode, consider sharing it with a friend. Word of mouth is one of the best ways that you can help our show grow. Thank you so much for listening to The Bay, a production of KQED in San Francisco. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Peace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Friday, Nancy Pelosi — former Speaker, minority leader, and representative in Congress since 1987 — announced plans to run again. KQED’s Marisa Lagos breaks down what this means for San Francisco amid debate over when a politician’s time is up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC9745622391\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>From KQED, I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to The Bay. Local News to Keep You Rooted. Nancy Pelosi has represented San Francisco in Congress since before I was even born. And everyone knows who she is. She’s a leader of the Democratic Party. Speaker of the House and Republicans most favorite punching bag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Political Ad Montage: \u003c/strong>First, Nancy Pelosi said she’d raise taxes. Now she’s coming for whatever you’ve got left to help pay for trillions in Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, they run Washington completely. A rubber stamp for Nancy Pelosi’s disastrous economics…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>On Friday, Pelosi announced plans to run to represent San Francisco in Congress for a 20th term. And it’s coming at a time when lots of people want to see some fresh, new leadership in politics. Today, the local and national impact of Pelosi’s decision to run again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Marisa, I know people have been speculating about whether Nancy Pelosi would retire, as we were just talking about. She’s 83 years old. What did she say about why she’s staying in the game?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I would say she sort of couched this in both local and kind of national terms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Marisa Lagos is a political correspondent for KQED and co-host of the Political Breakdown podcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>She talked about San Francisco values and her desire to kind of help the city with the big challenges it’s facing around the fentanyl crisis, around homelessness and housing. But then she also gave a nod to the kind of bigger forces at play here, democracy being at risk, really wanting to, I think, help, you know, Democrats win not just the House back, but keep the White House in 2024. You know, she spoke on MSNBC pretty soon after making this announcement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>So I am motivated to do everything I can to win this election. I think it’s urgent for our democracy, for our relationships worldwide, and more importantly, for every kitchen table discussion in our country about America’s working families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So that’s sort of what she says officially. But what’s your sort of take on it? Why is she really running again right now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>You know, Ericka, I’ve tried to get inside Nancy Pelosi’s head, and I think I have some ideas just from talking to folks around her. I think one is that she is still on top of her game.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>When you compare the way she’s operating to somebody, you know, like Dianne Feinstein, who’s had so much attention on her health, Pelosi has had, as far as we know, zero health problems. She’s super sharp. I think she’s kind of enjoying herself. She’s been a little bit unshackled. Now that she’s not the leader of the Democratic caucus. She can kind of speak her mind. And and I think probably it’s an easier and more fun job. It’s probably also really hard to step back and take yourself out of being in the mix and being so relevant. Right. She’s been doing this for basically most of my lifetime, and I think that that’s a hard thing to give up. And then I do think that there’s a lot of truth to this idea that she feels like this is a moment where she’s needed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>If you see the actions of the Republicans in Congress, you know that we have to win the election.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>You see this kind of similar vibe between her and Joe Biden, which is I think they see Donald Trump and the current Republican Party as such a threat. I think they feel like this is not the time for somebody with that level of experience, fundraising, prowess, all those things to kind of disappear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I don’t want to see any underutilized resources, any wasted time or any regrets the day after the election that we all didn’t do everything in our power to protect and defend, to make sure that our flag is still there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I also think that to some extent, the attack on her husband, that horrible attack on Paul Pelosi, kind of strengthened her resolve as well and made her want to stay in the game.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah. I mean, I was going to ask you about that because I remember seeing that and thinking like, geez, like why would anyone of her stature want to remain in the spotlight after something like that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Right. I mean, any attack would have been horrific. But this man broke into their home in the middle of the night looking for her. And I agree with you. I think normal people would say, oh, maybe I’m done. Politicians aren’t normal people. Let’s be real. Right. And I think and I do think for her, she has this history of being this punching bag for the right. And the way she’s always handled it is not to kind of shrink back from that. It’s to kind of rise to that occasion. It made her feel like, no, I’m not going to back down. Like, I’m not going to be bullied. I think as a woman of her age and generation and all the barriers she’s broken, like you can see how she’s often sort of run towards a challenge. And I think that this sort of tracks with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I mean, she’s probably going to win again, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I mean, she won with 84% of the vote last time, so I’m guessing it’ll be a walk in the park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, let’s talk about the local reaction to this news, Marisa. How would you characterize the general mood around Nancy Pelosi’s decision to run for Congress again?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I think among the general public, it’s a kind of mixed bag. I do think people are seeing her in the context of the Dianne Feinstein and Mitch McConnell’s and Joe Biden’s of the world, who, you know, polls show people feel like it’s time for them to move on. And so when you talk about a new generation of leadership, even if Pelosi is super energetic, I think it’s hard for a lot of people, especially on the younger side, to not see this as just another delay of this long, drawn out changing of the guard. She promised in 2018 that she would step aside as leader. So this is not like a new conversation. So I think what I’m hearing kind of in the more general public is some frustration. That said, again, I think most of those people will still vote for her come next November.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, what about the political class? How are people reacting locally to Pelosi’s decision to run again?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>So publicly, almost universally positive. I actually went on Friday to an Emily’s List lunch. This is a progressive women’s group that helps fund, raise and kind of seed campaigns. And I talked to Lateefah Simon, who is currently a bar board member and is running for Barbara Lee’s seat in Congress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>You know, I’m going to be in Congress soon, and I need the Maxine Waters, the Representative Clyburn, the Nancy Pelosi. It’s going to lead us to this next stage of battling to get some of the most basic rights for women back to security is on the line. The attack on trans kids. I mean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Lateefah is, you know, in her forties, young black woman, I think sort of part of this new generation of leadership and super progressive. And she, I think it’s fair to say, seemed pretty stoked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>About what a thrill to be able to be a phone call away, a couple of desks away from women who have fought and won huge victories for families. It’s exciting and it would be an honor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Did anyone voice concern publicly about Pelosi’s decision to run again?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>So I think, again, a lot of people are not eager to kind of say anything very publicly negative about Pelosi. I did, however, talk to Aimee Allison. She runs she the People, which is really dedicated to get women of color specifically into public office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>For those of us who want to see a new generation of leaders, it’s hard. 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Amy was circumspect. It’s not as if she was negative per se, but she did call it kind of disappointing. You know, talking about the desire to see this handing of the baton.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>We do need a new generation of leadership that looks like who lives in California, in the country. And that’s going to require people in their eighties to make space. And I’m not saying anything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>She probably speaks for a lot of people who, again, are not mad at Pelosi specifically, but are just frustrated by the broader political landscape right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>We can’t have in San Francisco or the Bay Area or anywhere in California, frankly, we can’t have the kind of generational leadership that continues on and on. Not only is it not possible, but it’s not a winning formula. So what I hope is that next.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, I know that in the meantime, there are some people who are sort of left waiting in the wings, maybe waiting for Pelosi to retire so that they could get their chance. So who are some of the younger folks locally who have been eyeing her seat?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I would say the two names that come up are State Senator Scott Wiener from San Francisco. Previous member of the Board of Supervisors has been a big leader on transit and transportation and housing and LGBT issues in Sacramento. He has made very clear that he does intend to run when Pelosi steps down and did say immediately on Friday that since she is running again, he’ll run for his seat again in the state Senate. The other big name is one that you might find familiar, Christine Pelosi, one of Nancy Pelosi’s children. She’s an activist in local Democratic politics, has been really out there on the MeToo movement. And she’s served on the Democratic Party here locally for many years as a lawyer and I think obviously is hopeful that her name might give her a little bit of a leg up. What’s fascinating to me is the kind of political dominoes, Game of Thrones, however you want to call it, that any sort of seat like this would create. So if Scott Weiner ran for Congress, Assembly member Matt Haney is thought to want to run for his Senate seat. San Francisco Supervisor Rafael Mandel man is thought to want to run for Haney’s seat. So you have, I think, her decision impacting not just the folks that are eyeing that congressional district, but everybody else who’s kind of waiting to see this stuff open up. And I think that that’s why we’ve seen in San Francisco in recent years some really brutal kind of Democrat on Democrat races. It’s because in some ways, a lot of these seats have not opened open in so long. These folks have been waiting already and this just delays it even further.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, this question of whether it’s time. Pelosi has been in office for more than 35 years. I mean, is that too long for someone to be in office?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>It’s a good question. I was six when she was first elected to Congress, so I now have two children older than that. So, you know, it’s it’s been a minute. It’s a long time. And I think that this is why you do hear some conversations about the question of, you know, age limits or some sort of term limits in Congress. But I do think that it’s an open question. And I think a lot of people are looking at somebody like her and wondering that same thing and kind of asking not just is it time for a new leadership, but like can people be effective after that long in office? But I have never seen a legitimate attempt in my time covering politics the last couple of decades to actually rein that in or do anything about it. Right. I feel like we’re talking about it now, but I haven’t seen anything concrete to actually sort of start that process and.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Marisa, Nancy Pelosi is this very national figure, but she has also represented San Francisco all this time. What are some of the big political winds of her career that have been felt here in the bay and in San Francisco in particular? Like what’s her local impact been over the years?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I mean, I will start with one that’s national but impacts all of us, which is the Affordable Care Act. That really was her crowning legislative achievement. Obviously, President Obama and Vice President Joe Biden deserve a lot of credit for that, but she really shepherded that through the Congress. But on the local level, I would say it’s the cheddar, baby. I mean, she brings home the money for the Bay Area. You know, if you look at our big infrastructure projects, transit, all of that sort of thing has been a big player. I think the most visible and sort of concrete thing you can look at is the Presidio. That would not exist as a national park if it were not for Nancy Pelosi. The federal government wanted to essentially sell it off to developers, and she stepped in and brokered this deal that said, look, it’ll become a national park, but it has to become self-sufficient. As you probably know, if you’ve been to the tunnel, top parks like it is continued to grow and really is one of the city’s crown jewels. And I’m looking back in time and I think this is something people in our generation might not even know or have forgotten is what a leader she was around the AIDS HIV crisis when she got to Congress. This was not an issue that most people in Washington, D.C. wanted to talk about. And despite her kind of Catholic background and the fact that she’s this like comes off to some people is so like establishment. She was a real leader in that and was very vocal from the minute she got to D.C. And so I do think that the LGBT community still really looks at her as a trailblazer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, I do think it is interesting that she was sort of this trailblazer when she first entered Congress, but now she really is sort of seen as someone who is very much part of the establishment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>She is part of the establishment. Like you can’t deny that regardless of whether she’s a pretty progressive member of the establishment or not. So I do think there’s times that she is not always in lockstep with the pulse of the city, per se. I mean, clearly, she is part of the establishment that has presided over the city for the past few decades as a lot of the problems she’s talking about trying to solve have gotten worse. That said, I think until this term, she’s kind of had the luxury of staying out of a lot of local issues, not that she hasn’t been involved again, behind closed doors, but you have not seen her out there being a pundit on a lot of the San Francisco debates over the past couple of decades. I think that’s probably largely because of her role as speaker and minority leader. You know, when you are representing a caucus of over 200 people from very diverse districts. You don’t get to be the San Francisco liberal all the time. Right? Like, you have to kind of look at things through the lens of how do I keep this group together? How do we win? It’s been kind of interesting to see her over the past year, get a little more involved, be a little more willing to weigh in on some of the local stuff. I mean, there’s certainly critics of her and her wealth and the money her husband has made and questions about that. But I do think a lot of those questions have been raised by people who already don’t agree with her politically.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>How do you think having a representative who is this like big national figure, how how do you think that’s different from having a congressperson to represent you who’s maybe like not as well known? I mean, I feel like no one really thinks of her as like just this representative from San Francisco. Right. Like, she’s Nancy Pelosi. Like not everyone has a congressperson to represent them who’s as famous as her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>No. Thank God, because there’s 435 of them. Right. We don’t have time to talk, I think in ways probably unseen to most of us. It matters even when Pelosi is not in the majority. I mean, Joe Biden’s going to take her phone call. She has a lot of power and just the longevity that exist when you’re in Washington for that long and, you know the people at the agencies and you know who to call and you have seniority within your caucus. Certainly when Nancy Pelosi steps down, it’s going to change the dynamic for San Francisco. There is a changing of the guard happening, and there’s going to be ways that that’s probably super great and exciting for people. And there might be ways that it makes things a little more challenging to advocate for resources or for power on committees. We are going to be in the next, let’s say, five years entering a place where we have two fairly junior senators from California and a lot of turnover within the congressional delegation. So it’ll be fascinating to watch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Marisa, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was Marisa Lagos, a political correspondent for KQED and co-host of the Political Breakdown podcast, which you can find wherever you are listening to the Bay. This 25 minute conversation with Marisa was cut down and edited by senior editor Alan Montecillo. I produced this one, scored it and added all the tape. If you liked this episode, consider sharing it with a friend. Word of mouth is one of the best ways that you can help our show grow. Thank you so much for listening to The Bay, a production of KQED in San Francisco. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Peace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "How Santa Clara County is Fighting Wage Theft",
"headTitle": "How Santa Clara County is Fighting Wage Theft | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California faces a big problem in labor law enforcement: when businesses are found to have committed wage theft, many \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">still \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">don’t pay workers what they’re owed. KQED’s Farida Jhabvala Romero tells us how Santa Clara County is implementing a local solution to this statewide issue. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"card card--enclosed grey\">\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">[iframe frameborder=”0″ height=”200″ scrolling=”no” src=”https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC6137013080&light=true” width=”100%”/iframe\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. You would think – hope, even – that if you were a victim of wage theft, that there’s a process in place to help you get what you’re owed. And there is a state agency in California set up for that. It’s just the process doesn’t always work the way it’s supposed to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>There’s only 13 people in the whole state dedicated to helping thousands of these low income workers try to recover that money that the state found their due.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Many businesses that have committed wage theft are often able to avoid settling that debt in California. That’s why officials in Santa Clara County have implemented a local solution to this problem by pushing some local businesses to pay up or lose their right to operate today. How one Bay Area County is helping put money back in the hands of workers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>So I went to downtown Gilroy and it was a couple of months ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Farida Jhabvala Romero is a labor correspondent for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>It was really hot and super sunny, and I met a group of people who were doing outreach work, partnering with the County of Santa Clara to educate food businesses in that area about their responsibilities as employers. And one of them was Melissa Sanchez. I have a.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>For sure for you here to give to the owner, if you don’t mind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>She would go into businesses and they would, like start chatting. They’re just trying to tell people what’s going on and also let them know about a county program called the Food Permit Enforcement Program and delivering pamphlets about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Melissa Sanchez: \u003c/strong>And your name again? I’m sorry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ricardo Rivas: \u003c/strong>My name is Ricardo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Melissa Sanchez: \u003c/strong>Oh, hi, Ricardo. I’m Melissa. Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>One of the people she met was Ricardo Rivas. He’s the manager of a restaurant called Tempo Kitchen and Bar. And Ricardo ended up saying he was very interested in attending the the free training and that he wanted to make sure that the restaurant was treating workers fairly. And then he got information about the food permit wage theft enforcement program as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ricardo Rivas: \u003c/strong>There’s so many different things involved with between state and county and federal laws, especially as far as labor goes. So being able to stay compliant with it, ensure that we are treating our workers here fairly and accordance to the law is definitely a major importance for us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So Melissa and the people that you were out there following were really out there trying to reach out to business owners about this program in Santa Clara County. Before we dig into it, what is the problem that this program is trying to solve?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>The county started this program because they’re putting some resources down to try to stem labor violations like wage theft, which is when workers are not paid what they’re owed under the law, like meal and rest breaks and overtime, minimum wage. There’s a state agency that investigates those cases When workers complain, it’s called the labor commissioner’s office. There is a list of cases where the Labor commissioner’s office has found that the worker is owed wages by an employer. But many times workers end up not getting any of that money paid. Statewide, the Labor commissioner’s office told us that there are more than 6500 of these cases of people with unpaid judgments that remain open, totaling more than $85 million. And this process, Ericka, can sometimes take years. The state has a very tiny department. It’s called the Judgment Enforcement Unit. They focused on helping low income workers get money back. They’re super understaffed. They said there were 22 positions statewide and only 13 were filled. That means there’s only 13 people in the whole state dedicated to helping thousands of low income workers try to recover that money. People who don’t want to pay will often move money around or put it in somebody else’s name. Close the business, declare bankruptcy. You know, it can be a really long, you know, process. So a lot of people end up just, you know, never seeing that money ever again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>This has been a problem that a lot of people have been talking about in Santa Clara County. Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>Workers rights advocates in the county have been pushing for years to get more local city and county governments involved. The way they see it, as often, there aren’t enough consequences when businesses are found to owe workers wages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ruth Silver Taube: \u003c/strong>I believe it’s a business model.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>Ruth Silver Taube is an attorney who coordinates the Santa Clara County Wage Theft Coalition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ruth Silver Taube: \u003c/strong>There’s a subset of businesses that just don’t want to pay these judgments because they want to make more money for themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>So these worker advocates, like they’ve been pushing for more local consequences for businesses who have these unpaid judgments with the labor commissioner’s office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ruth Silver Taube: \u003c/strong>We do need more enforcement that that to me, is a huge problem because even if you win, it doesn’t matter. The worker needs that money. We need that money in the worker’s pockets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>What role exactly is the county playing in this and what are they doing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>What the county does is they regularly get a list of all these businesses in the states with unpaid judgments. Then they figure out which ones are food businesses with permits in the county. They target the person named in the in the actual judgment. Then they’ll send the business a letter. And if the business doesn’t respond in 45 days, the county can take their permit to operate away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jessie Yu: \u003c/strong>The county focuses on food from its because we see a nexus between vulnerable worker populations and a large number of labor violations in the food retail industry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>Jesse Yu heads the county’s Office of Labor Standards Enforcement. The county is in charge of issuing these food permits. So the way they think about it is, well, the businesses need to comply with all the laws, and that includes making sure they don’t have any of these unpaid judgments, that they don’t owe money to the state or workers in the county.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jessie Yu; \u003c/strong>That’s exactly kind of where we see we fit in is just really complementing and supporting the federal and state process. Because even though a judgment is issued, sometimes the business doesn’t pay. And so we’re hoping to leverage our food permits to ensure that payment happens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>It’s definitely a very different message when the county is threatening to revoke your permit to operate, you know, you would have to close your business if you don’t have this permit. And so it is creating more local consequences for for these businesses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>As I understand it, this program has actually been pretty successful, it seems like, at getting wages back into the hands of workers. I believe that the number is $125,000. Is that right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>Yeah. They’ve said they’ve recovered $125,000 so far. It’s definitely, you know, nothing to sniff out, especially for the workers who were able to actually recover, you know, thousands of dollars on wages they were owed. I did get in touch with workers who got money after the food permit program got involved in their cases, but none of them wanted to speak publicly. You know, they did not want to be quoted because they didn’t want to be associated with a wage dispute. And, you know, sometimes their former employers in the same community had one worker tell me that their employer goes to her church. Businesses that paid these judgments after the food permit enforcement program sent them letters. You know, we’re in touch with them. They also didn’t want to be quoted or identified in the story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Zooming out, Farida, I’m curious how unique a program like this is. The people who follow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>Labor enforcement nationally that I talked to said this was a pretty unique program in the sense that the county is actively trying to identify and reach out to businesses doing investigations of their own, sometimes into a business, and also having this big outreach component. So, you know, it sounds like Santa Clara is trying something new. I heard words like innovative, you know, like pretty unique. That’s how people describe the county’s work on this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Are there other cities that have tried to do something like this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>Outside of Santa Clara, there’s other types of efforts I’ve seen. Like recently, San Diego County launched a new program called the Workplace Justice Fund. And so what the county is trying to do there is identifying workers who have these unpaid judgments in San Diego County. The county will front them up to $3,000 to help them stabilize financially. And at the same time, the county has its own collections agency, you know, with professional people who do this for a living, you know, And so they’ll take over the workers case, you know, and try to help them recover funds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, what would it take to get something like this going on a larger scale for you to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>I think what would it would take is just counties elsewhere deciding that they they want to try this out. You know, our feeling that this is a big enough problem for them that they that they want to focus on it in this way. You know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Or a big enough priority.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>Exactly. Like the situation of of having workers who’ve gone through this system that is supposed to, you know, help them and also help enforce labor laws. It has a bunch of impacts not just for the workers but for the state as well, because these workers are often really low income. They end up relying on food stamps and other programs that are supported with our tax dollars. Then the state also misses out on payroll taxes. And so it affects people in different ways. And then for the businesses, it’s unfair when a business is following the rules and then, you know, has to spend more money on their workforce following the law. And then they’re competing with businesses that are not doing that. And so it’s cheaper for them. So there’s also an issue of fairness. And leveling the playing field for for business owners is how the county and workers rights advocates and and the folks that are doing this outreach to businesses talk about this problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Why do you think this is happening now and in this place in particular, Santa Clara County?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>This has been a years long push by people who want to see change on wage theft in this state. It’s the most populous county in the Bay Area. There has been a concerted push there, but also in other parts of the state to get local governments to use their authority to, you know, intervene in this problem, help the state with enforcement of labor laws and see some real change, you know, for for workers who who have been victims of wage theft. And then it also sends a really strong message to businesses in the county and employers that somebody is watching and that there are local consequences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Farida, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was Farida Jhabvala Romero, a labor correspondent with KQED. This 30-minute conversation with Farida was cut down and edited by producer Maria Esquinca. Alan Montecillo is our senior editor. He scored this episode and added all the tape. And if you haven’t already, please consider leaving The Bay a review on Apple Podcasts. For one, I really like reading them and also it helps other people find our show. The Bay is a production of member supported KQED. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, see you next time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\u003c/div>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California faces a big problem in labor law enforcement: when businesses are found to have committed wage theft, many \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">still \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">don’t pay workers what they’re owed. KQED’s Farida Jhabvala Romero tells us how Santa Clara County is implementing a local solution to this statewide issue. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"card card--enclosed grey\">\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"label": "\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2> \u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. You would think – hope, even – that if you were a victim of wage theft, that there’s a process in place to help you get what you’re owed. And there is a state agency in California set up for that. It’s just the process doesn’t always work the way it’s supposed to.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>There’s only 13 people in the whole state dedicated to helping thousands of these low income workers try to recover that money that the state found their due.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Many businesses that have committed wage theft are often able to avoid settling that debt in California. That’s why officials in Santa Clara County have implemented a local solution to this problem by pushing some local businesses to pay up or lose their right to operate today. How one Bay Area County is helping put money back in the hands of workers.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>So I went to downtown Gilroy and it was a couple of months ago.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Farida Jhabvala Romero is a labor correspondent for KQED.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>It was really hot and super sunny, and I met a group of people who were doing outreach work, partnering with the County of Santa Clara to educate food businesses in that area about their responsibilities as employers. And one of them was Melissa Sanchez. I have a.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>For sure for you here to give to the owner, if you don’t mind.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>She would go into businesses and they would, like start chatting. They’re just trying to tell people what’s going on and also let them know about a county program called the Food Permit Enforcement Program and delivering pamphlets about it.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Melissa Sanchez: \u003c/strong>And your name again? I’m sorry.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ricardo Rivas: \u003c/strong>My name is Ricardo.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Melissa Sanchez: \u003c/strong>Oh, hi, Ricardo. I’m Melissa. Yes.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>One of the people she met was Ricardo Rivas. He’s the manager of a restaurant called Tempo Kitchen and Bar. And Ricardo ended up saying he was very interested in attending the the free training and that he wanted to make sure that the restaurant was treating workers fairly. And then he got information about the food permit wage theft enforcement program as well.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ricardo Rivas: \u003c/strong>There’s so many different things involved with between state and county and federal laws, especially as far as labor goes. So being able to stay compliant with it, ensure that we are treating our workers here fairly and accordance to the law is definitely a major importance for us.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So Melissa and the people that you were out there following were really out there trying to reach out to business owners about this program in Santa Clara County. Before we dig into it, what is the problem that this program is trying to solve?\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>The county started this program because they’re putting some resources down to try to stem labor violations like wage theft, which is when workers are not paid what they’re owed under the law, like meal and rest breaks and overtime, minimum wage. There’s a state agency that investigates those cases When workers complain, it’s called the labor commissioner’s office. There is a list of cases where the Labor commissioner’s office has found that the worker is owed wages by an employer. But many times workers end up not getting any of that money paid. Statewide, the Labor commissioner’s office told us that there are more than 6500 of these cases of people with unpaid judgments that remain open, totaling more than $85 million. And this process, Ericka, can sometimes take years. The state has a very tiny department. It’s called the Judgment Enforcement Unit. They focused on helping low income workers get money back. They’re super understaffed. They said there were 22 positions statewide and only 13 were filled. That means there’s only 13 people in the whole state dedicated to helping thousands of low income workers try to recover that money. People who don’t want to pay will often move money around or put it in somebody else’s name. Close the business, declare bankruptcy. You know, it can be a really long, you know, process. So a lot of people end up just, you know, never seeing that money ever again.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>This has been a problem that a lot of people have been talking about in Santa Clara County. Right.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>Workers rights advocates in the county have been pushing for years to get more local city and county governments involved. The way they see it, as often, there aren’t enough consequences when businesses are found to owe workers wages.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ruth Silver Taube: \u003c/strong>I believe it’s a business model.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>Ruth Silver Taube is an attorney who coordinates the Santa Clara County Wage Theft Coalition.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ruth Silver Taube: \u003c/strong>There’s a subset of businesses that just don’t want to pay these judgments because they want to make more money for themselves.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>So these worker advocates, like they’ve been pushing for more local consequences for businesses who have these unpaid judgments with the labor commissioner’s office.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ruth Silver Taube: \u003c/strong>We do need more enforcement that that to me, is a huge problem because even if you win, it doesn’t matter. The worker needs that money. We need that money in the worker’s pockets.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>What role exactly is the county playing in this and what are they doing?\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>What the county does is they regularly get a list of all these businesses in the states with unpaid judgments. Then they figure out which ones are food businesses with permits in the county. They target the person named in the in the actual judgment. Then they’ll send the business a letter. And if the business doesn’t respond in 45 days, the county can take their permit to operate away.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jessie Yu: \u003c/strong>The county focuses on food from its because we see a nexus between vulnerable worker populations and a large number of labor violations in the food retail industry.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>Jesse Yu heads the county’s Office of Labor Standards Enforcement. The county is in charge of issuing these food permits. So the way they think about it is, well, the businesses need to comply with all the laws, and that includes making sure they don’t have any of these unpaid judgments, that they don’t owe money to the state or workers in the county.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Jessie Yu; \u003c/strong>That’s exactly kind of where we see we fit in is just really complementing and supporting the federal and state process. Because even though a judgment is issued, sometimes the business doesn’t pay. And so we’re hoping to leverage our food permits to ensure that payment happens.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>It’s definitely a very different message when the county is threatening to revoke your permit to operate, you know, you would have to close your business if you don’t have this permit. And so it is creating more local consequences for for these businesses.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>As I understand it, this program has actually been pretty successful, it seems like, at getting wages back into the hands of workers. I believe that the number is $125,000. Is that right?\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>Yeah. They’ve said they’ve recovered $125,000 so far. It’s definitely, you know, nothing to sniff out, especially for the workers who were able to actually recover, you know, thousands of dollars on wages they were owed. I did get in touch with workers who got money after the food permit program got involved in their cases, but none of them wanted to speak publicly. You know, they did not want to be quoted because they didn’t want to be associated with a wage dispute. And, you know, sometimes their former employers in the same community had one worker tell me that their employer goes to her church. Businesses that paid these judgments after the food permit enforcement program sent them letters. You know, we’re in touch with them. They also didn’t want to be quoted or identified in the story.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Zooming out, Farida, I’m curious how unique a program like this is. The people who follow.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>Labor enforcement nationally that I talked to said this was a pretty unique program in the sense that the county is actively trying to identify and reach out to businesses doing investigations of their own, sometimes into a business, and also having this big outreach component. So, you know, it sounds like Santa Clara is trying something new. I heard words like innovative, you know, like pretty unique. That’s how people describe the county’s work on this.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Are there other cities that have tried to do something like this?\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>Outside of Santa Clara, there’s other types of efforts I’ve seen. Like recently, San Diego County launched a new program called the Workplace Justice Fund. And so what the county is trying to do there is identifying workers who have these unpaid judgments in San Diego County. The county will front them up to $3,000 to help them stabilize financially. And at the same time, the county has its own collections agency, you know, with professional people who do this for a living, you know, And so they’ll take over the workers case, you know, and try to help them recover funds.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, what would it take to get something like this going on a larger scale for you to.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>I think what would it would take is just counties elsewhere deciding that they they want to try this out. You know, our feeling that this is a big enough problem for them that they that they want to focus on it in this way. You know.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Or a big enough priority.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>Exactly. Like the situation of of having workers who’ve gone through this system that is supposed to, you know, help them and also help enforce labor laws. It has a bunch of impacts not just for the workers but for the state as well, because these workers are often really low income. They end up relying on food stamps and other programs that are supported with our tax dollars. Then the state also misses out on payroll taxes. And so it affects people in different ways. And then for the businesses, it’s unfair when a business is following the rules and then, you know, has to spend more money on their workforce following the law. And then they’re competing with businesses that are not doing that. And so it’s cheaper for them. So there’s also an issue of fairness. And leveling the playing field for for business owners is how the county and workers rights advocates and and the folks that are doing this outreach to businesses talk about this problem.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Why do you think this is happening now and in this place in particular, Santa Clara County?\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>This has been a years long push by people who want to see change on wage theft in this state. It’s the most populous county in the Bay Area. There has been a concerted push there, but also in other parts of the state to get local governments to use their authority to, you know, intervene in this problem, help the state with enforcement of labor laws and see some real change, you know, for for workers who who have been victims of wage theft. And then it also sends a really strong message to businesses in the county and employers that somebody is watching and that there are local consequences.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Farida, thank you so much.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/strong>Thank you.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was Farida Jhabvala Romero, a labor correspondent with KQED. This 30-minute conversation with Farida was cut down and edited by producer Maria Esquinca. Alan Montecillo is our senior editor. He scored this episode and added all the tape. And if you haven’t already, please consider leaving The Bay a review on Apple Podcasts. For one, I really like reading them and also it helps other people find our show. The Bay is a production of member supported KQED. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, see you next time.\u003c/p> \u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/p>\u003c/div> \u003cp>[ad fullwidth"
},
"numeric": [
"\u003ch2",
"id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode",
"Transcript\u003c/h2>",
"\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">This",
"is",
"a",
"computer-generated",
"transcript.",
"While",
"our",
"team",
"has",
"reviewed",
"it,",
"there",
"may",
"be",
"errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka",
"Cruz",
"Guevarra:",
"\u003c/strong>I’m",
"Ericka",
"Cruz",
"Guevarra,",
"and",
"welcome",
"to",
"The",
"Bay.",
"Local",
"news",
"to",
"keep",
"you",
"rooted.",
"You",
"would",
"think",
"–",
"hope,",
"even",
"–",
"that",
"if",
"you",
"were",
"a",
"victim",
"of",
"wage",
"theft,",
"that",
"there’s",
"a",
"process",
"in",
"place",
"to",
"help",
"you",
"get",
"what",
"you’re",
"owed.",
"And",
"there",
"is",
"a",
"state",
"agency",
"in",
"California",
"set",
"up",
"for",
"that.",
"It’s",
"just",
"the",
"process",
"doesn’t",
"always",
"work",
"the",
"way",
"it’s",
"supposed",
"to.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Farida",
"Jhabvala",
"Romero:",
"\u003c/strong>There’s",
"only",
"13",
"people",
"in",
"the",
"whole",
"state",
"dedicated",
"to",
"helping",
"thousands",
"of",
"these",
"low",
"income",
"workers",
"try",
"to",
"recover",
"that",
"money",
"that",
"the",
"state",
"found",
"their",
"due.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka",
"Cruz",
"Guevarra:",
"\u003c/strong>Many",
"businesses",
"that",
"have",
"committed",
"wage",
"theft",
"are",
"often",
"able",
"to",
"avoid",
"settling",
"that",
"debt",
"in",
"California.",
"That’s",
"why",
"officials",
"in",
"Santa",
"Clara",
"County",
"have",
"implemented",
"a",
"local",
"solution",
"to",
"this",
"problem",
"by",
"pushing",
"some",
"local",
"businesses",
"to",
"pay",
"up",
"or",
"lose",
"their",
"right",
"to",
"operate",
"today.",
"How",
"one",
"Bay",
"Area",
"County",
"is",
"helping",
"put",
"money",
"back",
"in",
"the",
"hands",
"of",
"workers.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Farida",
"Jhabvala",
"Romero:",
"\u003c/strong>So",
"I",
"went",
"to",
"downtown",
"Gilroy",
"and",
"it",
"was",
"a",
"couple",
"of",
"months",
"ago.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka",
"Cruz",
"Guevarra:",
"\u003c/strong>Farida",
"Jhabvala",
"Romero",
"is",
"a",
"labor",
"correspondent",
"for",
"KQED.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Farida",
"Jhabvala",
"Romero:",
"\u003c/strong>It",
"was",
"really",
"hot",
"and",
"super",
"sunny,",
"and",
"I",
"met",
"a",
"group",
"of",
"people",
"who",
"were",
"doing",
"outreach",
"work,",
"partnering",
"with",
"the",
"County",
"of",
"Santa",
"Clara",
"to",
"educate",
"food",
"businesses",
"in",
"that",
"area",
"about",
"their",
"responsibilities",
"as",
"employers.",
"And",
"one",
"of",
"them",
"was",
"Melissa",
"Sanchez.",
"I",
"have",
"a.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka",
"Cruz",
"Guevarra:",
"\u003c/strong>For",
"sure",
"for",
"you",
"here",
"to",
"give",
"to",
"the",
"owner,",
"if",
"you",
"don’t",
"mind.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Farida",
"Jhabvala",
"Romero:",
"\u003c/strong>She",
"would",
"go",
"into",
"businesses",
"and",
"they",
"would,",
"like",
"start",
"chatting.",
"They’re",
"just",
"trying",
"to",
"tell",
"people",
"what’s",
"going",
"on",
"and",
"also",
"let",
"them",
"know",
"about",
"a",
"county",
"program",
"called",
"the",
"Food",
"Permit",
"Enforcement",
"Program",
"and",
"delivering",
"pamphlets",
"about",
"it.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Melissa",
"Sanchez:",
"\u003c/strong>And",
"your",
"name",
"again?",
"I’m",
"sorry.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Ricardo",
"Rivas:",
"\u003c/strong>My",
"name",
"is",
"Ricardo.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Melissa",
"Sanchez:",
"\u003c/strong>Oh,",
"hi,",
"Ricardo.",
"I’m",
"Melissa.",
"Yes.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Farida",
"Jhabvala",
"Romero:",
"\u003c/strong>One",
"of",
"the",
"people",
"she",
"met",
"was",
"Ricardo",
"Rivas.",
"He’s",
"the",
"manager",
"of",
"a",
"restaurant",
"called",
"Tempo",
"Kitchen",
"and",
"Bar.",
"And",
"Ricardo",
"ended",
"up",
"saying",
"he",
"was",
"very",
"interested",
"in",
"attending",
"the",
"the",
"free",
"training",
"and",
"that",
"he",
"wanted",
"to",
"make",
"sure",
"that",
"the",
"restaurant",
"was",
"treating",
"workers",
"fairly.",
"And",
"then",
"he",
"got",
"information",
"about",
"the",
"food",
"permit",
"wage",
"theft",
"enforcement",
"program",
"as",
"well.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Ricardo",
"Rivas:",
"\u003c/strong>There’s",
"so",
"many",
"different",
"things",
"involved",
"with",
"between",
"state",
"and",
"county",
"and",
"federal",
"laws,",
"especially",
"as",
"far",
"as",
"labor",
"goes.",
"So",
"being",
"able",
"to",
"stay",
"compliant",
"with",
"it,",
"ensure",
"that",
"we",
"are",
"treating",
"our",
"workers",
"here",
"fairly",
"and",
"accordance",
"to",
"the",
"law",
"is",
"definitely",
"a",
"major",
"importance",
"for",
"us.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka",
"Cruz",
"Guevarra:",
"\u003c/strong>So",
"Melissa",
"and",
"the",
"people",
"that",
"you",
"were",
"out",
"there",
"following",
"were",
"really",
"out",
"there",
"trying",
"to",
"reach",
"out",
"to",
"business",
"owners",
"about",
"this",
"program",
"in",
"Santa",
"Clara",
"County.",
"Before",
"we",
"dig",
"into",
"it,",
"what",
"is",
"the",
"problem",
"that",
"this",
"program",
"is",
"trying",
"to",
"solve?\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Farida",
"Jhabvala",
"Romero:",
"\u003c/strong>The",
"county",
"started",
"this",
"program",
"because",
"they’re",
"putting",
"some",
"resources",
"down",
"to",
"try",
"to",
"stem",
"labor",
"violations",
"like",
"wage",
"theft,",
"which",
"is",
"when",
"workers",
"are",
"not",
"paid",
"what",
"they’re",
"owed",
"under",
"the",
"law,",
"like",
"meal",
"and",
"rest",
"breaks",
"and",
"overtime,",
"minimum",
"wage.",
"There’s",
"a",
"state",
"agency",
"that",
"investigates",
"those",
"cases",
"When",
"workers",
"complain,",
"it’s",
"called",
"the",
"labor",
"commissioner’s",
"office.",
"There",
"is",
"a",
"list",
"of",
"cases",
"where",
"the",
"Labor",
"commissioner’s",
"office",
"has",
"found",
"that",
"the",
"worker",
"is",
"owed",
"wages",
"by",
"an",
"employer.",
"But",
"many",
"times",
"workers",
"end",
"up",
"not",
"getting",
"any",
"of",
"that",
"money",
"paid.",
"Statewide,",
"the",
"Labor",
"commissioner’s",
"office",
"told",
"us",
"that",
"there",
"are",
"more",
"than",
"6500",
"of",
"these",
"cases",
"of",
"people",
"with",
"unpaid",
"judgments",
"that",
"remain",
"open,",
"totaling",
"more",
"than",
"$85",
"million.",
"And",
"this",
"process,",
"Ericka,",
"can",
"sometimes",
"take",
"years.",
"The",
"state",
"has",
"a",
"very",
"tiny",
"department.",
"It’s",
"called",
"the",
"Judgment",
"Enforcement",
"Unit.",
"They",
"focused",
"on",
"helping",
"low",
"income",
"workers",
"get",
"money",
"back.",
"They’re",
"super",
"understaffed.",
"They",
"said",
"there",
"were",
"22",
"positions",
"statewide",
"and",
"only",
"13",
"were",
"filled.",
"That",
"means",
"there’s",
"only",
"13",
"people",
"in",
"the",
"whole",
"state",
"dedicated",
"to",
"helping",
"thousands",
"of",
"low",
"income",
"workers",
"try",
"to",
"recover",
"that",
"money.",
"People",
"who",
"don’t",
"want",
"to",
"pay",
"will",
"often",
"move",
"money",
"around",
"or",
"put",
"it",
"in",
"somebody",
"else’s",
"name.",
"Close",
"the",
"business,",
"declare",
"bankruptcy.",
"You",
"know,",
"it",
"can",
"be",
"a",
"really",
"long,",
"you",
"know,",
"process.",
"So",
"a",
"lot",
"of",
"people",
"end",
"up",
"just,",
"you",
"know,",
"never",
"seeing",
"that",
"money",
"ever",
"again.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka",
"Cruz",
"Guevarra:",
"\u003c/strong>This",
"has",
"been",
"a",
"problem",
"that",
"a",
"lot",
"of",
"people",
"have",
"been",
"talking",
"about",
"in",
"Santa",
"Clara",
"County.",
"Right.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Farida",
"Jhabvala",
"Romero:",
"\u003c/strong>Workers",
"rights",
"advocates",
"in",
"the",
"county",
"have",
"been",
"pushing",
"for",
"years",
"to",
"get",
"more",
"local",
"city",
"and",
"county",
"governments",
"involved.",
"The",
"way",
"they",
"see",
"it,",
"as",
"often,",
"there",
"aren’t",
"enough",
"consequences",
"when",
"businesses",
"are",
"found",
"to",
"owe",
"workers",
"wages.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Ruth",
"Silver",
"Taube:",
"\u003c/strong>I",
"believe",
"it’s",
"a",
"business",
"model.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Farida",
"Jhabvala",
"Romero:",
"\u003c/strong>Ruth",
"Silver",
"Taube",
"is",
"an",
"attorney",
"who",
"coordinates",
"the",
"Santa",
"Clara",
"County",
"Wage",
"Theft",
"Coalition.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Ruth",
"Silver",
"Taube:",
"\u003c/strong>There’s",
"a",
"subset",
"of",
"businesses",
"that",
"just",
"don’t",
"want",
"to",
"pay",
"these",
"judgments",
"because",
"they",
"want",
"to",
"make",
"more",
"money",
"for",
"themselves.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Farida",
"Jhabvala",
"Romero:",
"\u003c/strong>So",
"these",
"worker",
"advocates,",
"like",
"they’ve",
"been",
"pushing",
"for",
"more",
"local",
"consequences",
"for",
"businesses",
"who",
"have",
"these",
"unpaid",
"judgments",
"with",
"the",
"labor",
"commissioner’s",
"office.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Ruth",
"Silver",
"Taube:",
"\u003c/strong>We",
"do",
"need",
"more",
"enforcement",
"that",
"that",
"to",
"me,",
"is",
"a",
"huge",
"problem",
"because",
"even",
"if",
"you",
"win,",
"it",
"doesn’t",
"matter.",
"The",
"worker",
"needs",
"that",
"money.",
"We",
"need",
"that",
"money",
"in",
"the",
"worker’s",
"pockets.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka",
"Cruz",
"Guevarra:",
"\u003c/strong>What",
"role",
"exactly",
"is",
"the",
"county",
"playing",
"in",
"this",
"and",
"what",
"are",
"they",
"doing?\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Farida",
"Jhabvala",
"Romero:",
"\u003c/strong>What",
"the",
"county",
"does",
"is",
"they",
"regularly",
"get",
"a",
"list",
"of",
"all",
"these",
"businesses",
"in",
"the",
"states",
"with",
"unpaid",
"judgments.",
"Then",
"they",
"figure",
"out",
"which",
"ones",
"are",
"food",
"businesses",
"with",
"permits",
"in",
"the",
"county.",
"They",
"target",
"the",
"person",
"named",
"in",
"the",
"in",
"the",
"actual",
"judgment.",
"Then",
"they’ll",
"send",
"the",
"business",
"a",
"letter.",
"And",
"if",
"the",
"business",
"doesn’t",
"respond",
"in",
"45",
"days,",
"the",
"county",
"can",
"take",
"their",
"permit",
"to",
"operate",
"away.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Jessie",
"Yu:",
"\u003c/strong>The",
"county",
"focuses",
"on",
"food",
"from",
"its",
"because",
"we",
"see",
"a",
"nexus",
"between",
"vulnerable",
"worker",
"populations",
"and",
"a",
"large",
"number",
"of",
"labor",
"violations",
"in",
"the",
"food",
"retail",
"industry.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Farida",
"Jhabvala",
"Romero:",
"\u003c/strong>Jesse",
"Yu",
"heads",
"the",
"county’s",
"Office",
"of",
"Labor",
"Standards",
"Enforcement.",
"The",
"county",
"is",
"in",
"charge",
"of",
"issuing",
"these",
"food",
"permits.",
"So",
"the",
"way",
"they",
"think",
"about",
"it",
"is,",
"well,",
"the",
"businesses",
"need",
"to",
"comply",
"with",
"all",
"the",
"laws,",
"and",
"that",
"includes",
"making",
"sure",
"they",
"don’t",
"have",
"any",
"of",
"these",
"unpaid",
"judgments,",
"that",
"they",
"don’t",
"owe",
"money",
"to",
"the",
"state",
"or",
"workers",
"in",
"the",
"county.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Jessie",
"Yu;",
"\u003c/strong>That’s",
"exactly",
"kind",
"of",
"where",
"we",
"see",
"we",
"fit",
"in",
"is",
"just",
"really",
"complementing",
"and",
"supporting",
"the",
"federal",
"and",
"state",
"process.",
"Because",
"even",
"though",
"a",
"judgment",
"is",
"issued,",
"sometimes",
"the",
"business",
"doesn’t",
"pay.",
"And",
"so",
"we’re",
"hoping",
"to",
"leverage",
"our",
"food",
"permits",
"to",
"ensure",
"that",
"payment",
"happens.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Farida",
"Jhabvala",
"Romero:",
"\u003c/strong>It’s",
"definitely",
"a",
"very",
"different",
"message",
"when",
"the",
"county",
"is",
"threatening",
"to",
"revoke",
"your",
"permit",
"to",
"operate,",
"you",
"know,",
"you",
"would",
"have",
"to",
"close",
"your",
"business",
"if",
"you",
"don’t",
"have",
"this",
"permit.",
"And",
"so",
"it",
"is",
"creating",
"more",
"local",
"consequences",
"for",
"for",
"these",
"businesses.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka",
"Cruz",
"Guevarra:",
"\u003c/strong>As",
"I",
"understand",
"it,",
"this",
"program",
"has",
"actually",
"been",
"pretty",
"successful,",
"it",
"seems",
"like,",
"at",
"getting",
"wages",
"back",
"into",
"the",
"hands",
"of",
"workers.",
"I",
"believe",
"that",
"the",
"number",
"is",
"$125,000.",
"Is",
"that",
"right?\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Farida",
"Jhabvala",
"Romero:",
"\u003c/strong>Yeah.",
"They’ve",
"said",
"they’ve",
"recovered",
"$125,000",
"so",
"far.",
"It’s",
"definitely,",
"you",
"know,",
"nothing",
"to",
"sniff",
"out,",
"especially",
"for",
"the",
"workers",
"who",
"were",
"able",
"to",
"actually",
"recover,",
"you",
"know,",
"thousands",
"of",
"dollars",
"on",
"wages",
"they",
"were",
"owed.",
"I",
"did",
"get",
"in",
"touch",
"with",
"workers",
"who",
"got",
"money",
"after",
"the",
"food",
"permit",
"program",
"got",
"involved",
"in",
"their",
"cases,",
"but",
"none",
"of",
"them",
"wanted",
"to",
"speak",
"publicly.",
"You",
"know,",
"they",
"did",
"not",
"want",
"to",
"be",
"quoted",
"because",
"they",
"didn’t",
"want",
"to",
"be",
"associated",
"with",
"a",
"wage",
"dispute.",
"And,",
"you",
"know,",
"sometimes",
"their",
"former",
"employers",
"in",
"the",
"same",
"community",
"had",
"one",
"worker",
"tell",
"me",
"that",
"their",
"employer",
"goes",
"to",
"her",
"church.",
"Businesses",
"that",
"paid",
"these",
"judgments",
"after",
"the",
"food",
"permit",
"enforcement",
"program",
"sent",
"them",
"letters.",
"You",
"know,",
"we’re",
"in",
"touch",
"with",
"them.",
"They",
"also",
"didn’t",
"want",
"to",
"be",
"quoted",
"or",
"identified",
"in",
"the",
"story.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka",
"Cruz",
"Guevarra:",
"\u003c/strong>Zooming",
"out,",
"Farida,",
"I’m",
"curious",
"how",
"unique",
"a",
"program",
"like",
"this",
"is.",
"The",
"people",
"who",
"follow.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Farida",
"Jhabvala",
"Romero:",
"\u003c/strong>Labor",
"enforcement",
"nationally",
"that",
"I",
"talked",
"to",
"said",
"this",
"was",
"a",
"pretty",
"unique",
"program",
"in",
"the",
"sense",
"that",
"the",
"county",
"is",
"actively",
"trying",
"to",
"identify",
"and",
"reach",
"out",
"to",
"businesses",
"doing",
"investigations",
"of",
"their",
"own,",
"sometimes",
"into",
"a",
"business,",
"and",
"also",
"having",
"this",
"big",
"outreach",
"component.",
"So,",
"you",
"know,",
"it",
"sounds",
"like",
"Santa",
"Clara",
"is",
"trying",
"something",
"new.",
"I",
"heard",
"words",
"like",
"innovative,",
"you",
"know,",
"like",
"pretty",
"unique.",
"That’s",
"how",
"people",
"describe",
"the",
"county’s",
"work",
"on",
"this.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka",
"Cruz",
"Guevarra:",
"\u003c/strong>Are",
"there",
"other",
"cities",
"that",
"have",
"tried",
"to",
"do",
"something",
"like",
"this?\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Farida",
"Jhabvala",
"Romero:",
"\u003c/strong>Outside",
"of",
"Santa",
"Clara,",
"there’s",
"other",
"types",
"of",
"efforts",
"I’ve",
"seen.",
"Like",
"recently,",
"San",
"Diego",
"County",
"launched",
"a",
"new",
"program",
"called",
"the",
"Workplace",
"Justice",
"Fund.",
"And",
"so",
"what",
"the",
"county",
"is",
"trying",
"to",
"do",
"there",
"is",
"identifying",
"workers",
"who",
"have",
"these",
"unpaid",
"judgments",
"in",
"San",
"Diego",
"County.",
"The",
"county",
"will",
"front",
"them",
"up",
"to",
"$3,000",
"to",
"help",
"them",
"stabilize",
"financially.",
"And",
"at",
"the",
"same",
"time,",
"the",
"county",
"has",
"its",
"own",
"collections",
"agency,",
"you",
"know,",
"with",
"professional",
"people",
"who",
"do",
"this",
"for",
"a",
"living,",
"you",
"know,",
"And",
"so",
"they’ll",
"take",
"over",
"the",
"workers",
"case,",
"you",
"know,",
"and",
"try",
"to",
"help",
"them",
"recover",
"funds.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka",
"Cruz",
"Guevarra:",
"\u003c/strong>Well,",
"what",
"would",
"it",
"take",
"to",
"get",
"something",
"like",
"this",
"going",
"on",
"a",
"larger",
"scale",
"for",
"you",
"to.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Farida",
"Jhabvala",
"Romero:",
"\u003c/strong>I",
"think",
"what",
"would",
"it",
"would",
"take",
"is",
"just",
"counties",
"elsewhere",
"deciding",
"that",
"they",
"they",
"want",
"to",
"try",
"this",
"out.",
"You",
"know,",
"our",
"feeling",
"that",
"this",
"is",
"a",
"big",
"enough",
"problem",
"for",
"them",
"that",
"they",
"that",
"they",
"want",
"to",
"focus",
"on",
"it",
"in",
"this",
"way.",
"You",
"know.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka",
"Cruz",
"Guevarra:",
"\u003c/strong>Or",
"a",
"big",
"enough",
"priority.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Farida",
"Jhabvala",
"Romero:",
"\u003c/strong>Exactly.",
"Like",
"the",
"situation",
"of",
"of",
"having",
"workers",
"who’ve",
"gone",
"through",
"this",
"system",
"that",
"is",
"supposed",
"to,",
"you",
"know,",
"help",
"them",
"and",
"also",
"help",
"enforce",
"labor",
"laws.",
"It",
"has",
"a",
"bunch",
"of",
"impacts",
"not",
"just",
"for",
"the",
"workers",
"but",
"for",
"the",
"state",
"as",
"well,",
"because",
"these",
"workers",
"are",
"often",
"really",
"low",
"income.",
"They",
"end",
"up",
"relying",
"on",
"food",
"stamps",
"and",
"other",
"programs",
"that",
"are",
"supported",
"with",
"our",
"tax",
"dollars.",
"Then",
"the",
"state",
"also",
"misses",
"out",
"on",
"payroll",
"taxes.",
"And",
"so",
"it",
"affects",
"people",
"in",
"different",
"ways.",
"And",
"then",
"for",
"the",
"businesses,",
"it’s",
"unfair",
"when",
"a",
"business",
"is",
"following",
"the",
"rules",
"and",
"then,",
"you",
"know,",
"has",
"to",
"spend",
"more",
"money",
"on",
"their",
"workforce",
"following",
"the",
"law.",
"And",
"then",
"they’re",
"competing",
"with",
"businesses",
"that",
"are",
"not",
"doing",
"that.",
"And",
"so",
"it’s",
"cheaper",
"for",
"them.",
"So",
"there’s",
"also",
"an",
"issue",
"of",
"fairness.",
"And",
"leveling",
"the",
"playing",
"field",
"for",
"for",
"business",
"owners",
"is",
"how",
"the",
"county",
"and",
"workers",
"rights",
"advocates",
"and",
"and",
"the",
"folks",
"that",
"are",
"doing",
"this",
"outreach",
"to",
"businesses",
"talk",
"about",
"this",
"problem.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka",
"Cruz",
"Guevarra:",
"\u003c/strong>Why",
"do",
"you",
"think",
"this",
"is",
"happening",
"now",
"and",
"in",
"this",
"place",
"in",
"particular,",
"Santa",
"Clara",
"County?\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Farida",
"Jhabvala",
"Romero:",
"\u003c/strong>This",
"has",
"been",
"a",
"years",
"long",
"push",
"by",
"people",
"who",
"want",
"to",
"see",
"change",
"on",
"wage",
"theft",
"in",
"this",
"state.",
"It’s",
"the",
"most",
"populous",
"county",
"in",
"the",
"Bay",
"Area.",
"There",
"has",
"been",
"a",
"concerted",
"push",
"there,",
"but",
"also",
"in",
"other",
"parts",
"of",
"the",
"state",
"to",
"get",
"local",
"governments",
"to",
"use",
"their",
"authority",
"to,",
"you",
"know,",
"intervene",
"in",
"this",
"problem,",
"help",
"the",
"state",
"with",
"enforcement",
"of",
"labor",
"laws",
"and",
"see",
"some",
"real",
"change,",
"you",
"know,",
"for",
"for",
"workers",
"who",
"who",
"have",
"been",
"victims",
"of",
"wage",
"theft.",
"And",
"then",
"it",
"also",
"sends",
"a",
"really",
"strong",
"message",
"to",
"businesses",
"in",
"the",
"county",
"and",
"employers",
"that",
"somebody",
"is",
"watching",
"and",
"that",
"there",
"are",
"local",
"consequences.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka",
"Cruz",
"Guevarra:",
"\u003c/strong>Well,",
"Farida,",
"thank",
"you",
"so",
"much.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Farida",
"Jhabvala",
"Romero:",
"\u003c/strong>Thank",
"you.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka",
"Cruz",
"Guevarra:",
"\u003c/strong>That",
"was",
"Farida",
"Jhabvala",
"Romero,",
"a",
"labor",
"correspondent",
"with",
"KQED.",
"This",
"30-minute",
"conversation",
"with",
"Farida",
"was",
"cut",
"down",
"and",
"edited",
"by",
"producer",
"Maria",
"Esquinca.",
"Alan",
"Montecillo",
"is",
"our",
"senior",
"editor.",
"He",
"scored",
"this",
"episode",
"and",
"added",
"all",
"the",
"tape.",
"And",
"if",
"you",
"haven’t",
"already,",
"please",
"consider",
"leaving",
"The",
"Bay",
"a",
"review",
"on",
"Apple",
"Podcasts.",
"For",
"one,",
"I",
"really",
"like",
"reading",
"them",
"and",
"also",
"it",
"helps",
"other",
"people",
"find",
"our",
"show.",
"The",
"Bay",
"is",
"a",
"production",
"of",
"member",
"supported",
"KQED.",
"I’m",
"Ericka",
"Cruz",
"Guevarra,",
"see",
"you",
"next",
"time.\u003c/p>",
"\u003cp",
"style=\"font-weight:",
"400\">",
"\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
"\u003cp>[ad",
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"slug": "youre-not-imagining-it-covid-cases-are-up-again",
"title": "You’re Not Imagining It: COVID Cases Are Up Again",
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"headTitle": "You’re Not Imagining It: COVID Cases Are Up Again | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>COVID-19 cases are on the rise (again). But this isn’t the surge of years’ past..it’s more like a “swell”.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We also have more immunity, there are effective treatments, and a new booster is on the way. KQED Health Correspondent Lesley McClurg explains what you need to know about this increase in COVID cases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC2131796693&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11957790/the-new-covid-eris-variant-and-rising-cases-what-you-need-to-know\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New COVID ‘Eris’ Variant and Rising Cases: What You Need to Know\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1984096/wiley-covid-stoked-by-eris-escapes-predictability-once-again\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fueled by ‘Eris,’ COVID Escapes Predictability Once Again\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. So, it was my birthday this weekend. And as you will, I was just out living life until I found out that someone that I was with now has COVID. And if it seems like everyone is getting COVID again, you’re not imagining it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Listener Call-In: \u003c/strong>I was exposed Friday at a music venue in Marin County. Three days later, started to feel symptoms. We are vaccinated. We are boosted. I think two times we’ve recently gotten over COVID infection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Listener Call-In: \u003c/strong>My husband and I and my three children, five and under recently got COVID for the first time at the end of June and early July. And now that the kids are back at school and unmasked because that is the way of the world, it seems now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’re in the middle of another increase in COVID cases here in the Bay Area at a time when restrictions and mandates are long gone. But this virus is still very much part of our lives today. KQED health correspondent Lesley McClurg breaks down this moment in our ever changing relationship with COVID.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Lesley, I feel like we seem to be in this moment again where everyone around us seems to be getting COVID again. Are we in a summer surge summer? What is this? What is happening right now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Yeah, exactly. It’s a good question. I would say experts are saying uptick. Swell. Serge tends to kind of make us nervous. And fortunately, we’re not seeing some sort of spike. That’s really quite worrisome. I would say a lot more people are getting COVID right now. I think that’s the fair way to say what’s happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And how do we know that this is happening? What data are we using at this point?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Basically, all indicators are showing upwards, hospitalizations are going up, wastewater data is going up, as well as test positivity rate is going up. So the number of tests that are showing up positive at hospitals are going up. Those are basically the three ways that you check to see, you know, is is COVID rising? And COVID is definitely rising, I think is also indicative. I heard several experts say, you know, are a lot more people around you getting it? That means it’s in your community. So I think it’s fair to say if if you have friends that are that are testing positive, that that it’s fair to say that you know, it’s around you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, I do know that we don’t have the data that we used to have when it comes to tracking how bad COVID is around us. Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>We have in some ways better indicators than we did at the beginning in that we’re using wastewater data a lot more right now. And wastewater data is, you know, they really track all the dead skin cells and the pee and everything that it’s coming off of us, and they track to see if the virus is in there. So you can get a pretty accurate understanding of how much virus is spreading in a community from the wastewater data. What we don’t have anymore is really accurate testing data. Back in the day, everybody who thought they had COVID went to the hospital because that was the only place to get a test. And those are PCR tests. And so we had really accurate numbers on PCR tests, which is what is federally reported to public health agencies. We don’t have that anymore because people are testing at home more, more people are probably testing now than they were back, you know, in 2020 and 2021 when we didn’t have the accessibility to antigen tests or home tests that we do now. And those tests are not captured in that tally, basically. But we also have hospitalization numbers. So I think we do have a pretty aggregate number of indicators to give us a sense of what’s happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I feel like I’m I’m losing track of just like which variant we’re on now. So what’s the like, main variant taking hold in this sort of summer swell?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Right now the most prevalent is Eris or XB, but basically these are variations on the same theme of Akron. And what it’s doing to us hasn’t changed that much since basically last winter, except that it’s just becoming a little sneakier in the sense that more contagious, it’s kind of getting past our immunity, but it’s not necessarily making us any sicker. There is another variant that is starting to show up in some parts of the U.S. It’s not in California yet. That’s BA.2.86 or some folks are calling it “Pirola”. And that variant was quite worrisome initially because it demonstrated that it might be more infectious, but we are now seeing that that’s maybe not the case and that it is acting very similar to Eris and maybe again, kind of slipping past our our initial defenses, but still responding to vaccines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So is the take away maybe there when it comes to variants is that none of these are as bad as Delta and Omicron, which were like very scary when they they sort of came out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I think it’s fair to say that we have better strategies to defend against the virus that is circulating right now. Most people have some sort of built up immunity. 97% of adults have either gotten a vaccine or been exposed to the virus at this point. So we’ve got a defense layer that we didn’t have, you know, back in 2020 or early 2021. And so that’s, you know, keeping us from getting really sick. And the virus is not quite as dangerous. So it’s a combination of those forces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>If you get COVID now, what is the, I guess, official guidance at this point?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Official guidance is if you have symptoms, test immediately. Find out if you have it and then to isolate for five days. If you start getting really scary symptoms of any kind, then you can go to a hospital. So if you if you have trouble breathing, if your fever spikes, if you’re, you know, really nauseous, then it’s a good idea to seek help from the medical field, you know, maybe go going to the hospital or at least reaching out to your primary physician and seeing if you should get Paxlovid, which is probably the most accessible treatment and showing the most success against the current variant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I think a lot of people and at least me as well, like personally, are still afraid of potentially getting long COVID. What do we know about treatments for long COVID at this point? Have there been any updates on that end?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately, we’re not seeing a lot of success there. We’ve spent about $1,000,000,000 on project recover trying to find treatments that will help folks who are suffering from long COVID, which is such a myriad of symptoms. And because it’s such kind of a it’s playing out so differently in different people and it’s kind of a very individual disease, it’s very difficult to have treatments that can really work. So the best advice at this point is to go to specialty clinics and have individual, you know, tailored treatment to your particular symptoms. The best thing to do, you know, to prevent getting long COVID right now is to stay up to date on your COVID booster. It does show that those folks who do get vaccinated do have lower rates of long COVID.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And speaking of a new booster, we’re actually like a few days away from an updated one, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>That is true. So they’re saying kind of mid-September is when it will likely be available. And really those who are at highest risk should get it first. You know, seniors, the folks who are immunocompromised. But the CDC said last week that the booster will be available for everyone. And most folks, you know, all of us have who did get a shot last fall, you know, are up for another one in the sense that your immunity does wane over time. So if you want to prep your system, you know, for this swell and just cold and cold and flu season in general, it’s a good idea to get that booster and you can get in. It is recommended to get that booster with your flu shot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Will this booster protect against the current variants that are in the air right now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It is designed to defend against the most the variants that are circulating most prevalently right now and in recent months. And it does show likely that it will work against the B.A. .2.86 or the Pirola that is just starting to circulate. There is data suggesting that it will work quite well against that one as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And what if you just recently got COVID, Lesley? Like, should you also get this new booster?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Yeah, the latest advice is basically you should definitely wait until you don’t have any more symptoms. Generally, about ten days after you stop having symptoms and then you can get the booster or you can wait to delay about three months. So you should get it sometime this fall. It’s not something you need to run out and get right away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, I want to ask you about masking, Lesley, because actually there’s a local shop in my community that does require you or is starting to require patrons to wear masks when they come inside. It’s like this really small like store. So, I mean, have any places reinstated mask mandates here in the Bay Area?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>There are a few health care facilities in Northern California. Kaiser Santa Rosa does have a mask requirement. Some Sutter facilities are requiring their health care workers to wear masks later on this fall. Santa Clara County is going to require health care workers to wear masks, so it’s starting to come forward. But outside of health care facilities, it’s generally just recommended and there is no indication that requirements are likely to come back from public health officials.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>How would you characterize like where we’re at now? Like, is this still a pandemic? Are we now sort of in this moment where this is just going to be a seasonal illness like everyone’s sort of been saying it would? It would eventually become just like the flu? Like, where are we at now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It’s endemic. It’s going to be around. I think we passed that threshold a while ago, but all of us feel a little almost like, I don’t know, I feel internally like my gears are not quite clicking in yet in terms of how to assess the risk of COVID. This is the same bug that killed more than a million people in the U.S. and now it it’s not nearly as scary. We can test for it. We do have treatments. We do have vaccines. So we’re in a very different moment. But kind of similarly to how people probably felt after the Spanish flu. There was a fear of this thing for quite some time afterwards. It’s not how we associate and relate to the flu today. Right. And I think we’re in that moment of COVID as well. We’re still kind of figuring out how dangerous this thing is. And it’s very individual in terms of how to assess your risk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Lesley, thank you so much for breaking this down for us. I really appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was Lesley McClurg, a health correspondent for KQED. The people you heard from at the top of this show were from a recent episode of KQED’s Forum, which you can catch every weekday from 9 to 11 a.m. on 88.5 FM or wherever you listen to podcasts. This 25-minute conversation with Lesley was cut down and edited by producer Maria Esquinca. Senior editor Alan Montecillo scored it and produced it. Shout out as well to the rest of the podcast squad here at KQED. That’s Jen Chien, our director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager. César Saldaña is our engagement producer, and Holly Kernan is our chief content officer. The Bay is a production of member-supported KQED. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Thanks for listening. Peace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>COVID-19 cases are on the rise (again). But this isn’t the surge of years’ past..it’s more like a “swell”.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We also have more immunity, there are effective treatments, and a new booster is on the way. KQED Health Correspondent Lesley McClurg explains what you need to know about this increase in COVID cases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC2131796693&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11957790/the-new-covid-eris-variant-and-rising-cases-what-you-need-to-know\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New COVID ‘Eris’ Variant and Rising Cases: What You Need to Know\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1984096/wiley-covid-stoked-by-eris-escapes-predictability-once-again\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fueled by ‘Eris,’ COVID Escapes Predictability Once Again\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. So, it was my birthday this weekend. And as you will, I was just out living life until I found out that someone that I was with now has COVID. And if it seems like everyone is getting COVID again, you’re not imagining it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Listener Call-In: \u003c/strong>I was exposed Friday at a music venue in Marin County. Three days later, started to feel symptoms. We are vaccinated. We are boosted. I think two times we’ve recently gotten over COVID infection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Listener Call-In: \u003c/strong>My husband and I and my three children, five and under recently got COVID for the first time at the end of June and early July. And now that the kids are back at school and unmasked because that is the way of the world, it seems now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’re in the middle of another increase in COVID cases here in the Bay Area at a time when restrictions and mandates are long gone. But this virus is still very much part of our lives today. KQED health correspondent Lesley McClurg breaks down this moment in our ever changing relationship with COVID.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Lesley, I feel like we seem to be in this moment again where everyone around us seems to be getting COVID again. Are we in a summer surge summer? What is this? What is happening right now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Yeah, exactly. It’s a good question. I would say experts are saying uptick. Swell. Serge tends to kind of make us nervous. And fortunately, we’re not seeing some sort of spike. That’s really quite worrisome. I would say a lot more people are getting COVID right now. I think that’s the fair way to say what’s happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And how do we know that this is happening? What data are we using at this point?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Basically, all indicators are showing upwards, hospitalizations are going up, wastewater data is going up, as well as test positivity rate is going up. So the number of tests that are showing up positive at hospitals are going up. Those are basically the three ways that you check to see, you know, is is COVID rising? And COVID is definitely rising, I think is also indicative. I heard several experts say, you know, are a lot more people around you getting it? That means it’s in your community. So I think it’s fair to say if if you have friends that are that are testing positive, that that it’s fair to say that you know, it’s around you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, I do know that we don’t have the data that we used to have when it comes to tracking how bad COVID is around us. Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>We have in some ways better indicators than we did at the beginning in that we’re using wastewater data a lot more right now. And wastewater data is, you know, they really track all the dead skin cells and the pee and everything that it’s coming off of us, and they track to see if the virus is in there. So you can get a pretty accurate understanding of how much virus is spreading in a community from the wastewater data. What we don’t have anymore is really accurate testing data. Back in the day, everybody who thought they had COVID went to the hospital because that was the only place to get a test. And those are PCR tests. And so we had really accurate numbers on PCR tests, which is what is federally reported to public health agencies. We don’t have that anymore because people are testing at home more, more people are probably testing now than they were back, you know, in 2020 and 2021 when we didn’t have the accessibility to antigen tests or home tests that we do now. And those tests are not captured in that tally, basically. But we also have hospitalization numbers. So I think we do have a pretty aggregate number of indicators to give us a sense of what’s happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I feel like I’m I’m losing track of just like which variant we’re on now. So what’s the like, main variant taking hold in this sort of summer swell?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Right now the most prevalent is Eris or XB, but basically these are variations on the same theme of Akron. And what it’s doing to us hasn’t changed that much since basically last winter, except that it’s just becoming a little sneakier in the sense that more contagious, it’s kind of getting past our immunity, but it’s not necessarily making us any sicker. There is another variant that is starting to show up in some parts of the U.S. It’s not in California yet. That’s BA.2.86 or some folks are calling it “Pirola”. And that variant was quite worrisome initially because it demonstrated that it might be more infectious, but we are now seeing that that’s maybe not the case and that it is acting very similar to Eris and maybe again, kind of slipping past our our initial defenses, but still responding to vaccines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So is the take away maybe there when it comes to variants is that none of these are as bad as Delta and Omicron, which were like very scary when they they sort of came out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I think it’s fair to say that we have better strategies to defend against the virus that is circulating right now. Most people have some sort of built up immunity. 97% of adults have either gotten a vaccine or been exposed to the virus at this point. So we’ve got a defense layer that we didn’t have, you know, back in 2020 or early 2021. And so that’s, you know, keeping us from getting really sick. And the virus is not quite as dangerous. So it’s a combination of those forces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>If you get COVID now, what is the, I guess, official guidance at this point?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Official guidance is if you have symptoms, test immediately. Find out if you have it and then to isolate for five days. If you start getting really scary symptoms of any kind, then you can go to a hospital. So if you if you have trouble breathing, if your fever spikes, if you’re, you know, really nauseous, then it’s a good idea to seek help from the medical field, you know, maybe go going to the hospital or at least reaching out to your primary physician and seeing if you should get Paxlovid, which is probably the most accessible treatment and showing the most success against the current variant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I think a lot of people and at least me as well, like personally, are still afraid of potentially getting long COVID. What do we know about treatments for long COVID at this point? Have there been any updates on that end?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately, we’re not seeing a lot of success there. We’ve spent about $1,000,000,000 on project recover trying to find treatments that will help folks who are suffering from long COVID, which is such a myriad of symptoms. And because it’s such kind of a it’s playing out so differently in different people and it’s kind of a very individual disease, it’s very difficult to have treatments that can really work. So the best advice at this point is to go to specialty clinics and have individual, you know, tailored treatment to your particular symptoms. The best thing to do, you know, to prevent getting long COVID right now is to stay up to date on your COVID booster. It does show that those folks who do get vaccinated do have lower rates of long COVID.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And speaking of a new booster, we’re actually like a few days away from an updated one, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>That is true. So they’re saying kind of mid-September is when it will likely be available. And really those who are at highest risk should get it first. You know, seniors, the folks who are immunocompromised. But the CDC said last week that the booster will be available for everyone. And most folks, you know, all of us have who did get a shot last fall, you know, are up for another one in the sense that your immunity does wane over time. So if you want to prep your system, you know, for this swell and just cold and cold and flu season in general, it’s a good idea to get that booster and you can get in. It is recommended to get that booster with your flu shot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Will this booster protect against the current variants that are in the air right now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It is designed to defend against the most the variants that are circulating most prevalently right now and in recent months. And it does show likely that it will work against the B.A. .2.86 or the Pirola that is just starting to circulate. There is data suggesting that it will work quite well against that one as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And what if you just recently got COVID, Lesley? Like, should you also get this new booster?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Yeah, the latest advice is basically you should definitely wait until you don’t have any more symptoms. Generally, about ten days after you stop having symptoms and then you can get the booster or you can wait to delay about three months. So you should get it sometime this fall. It’s not something you need to run out and get right away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, I want to ask you about masking, Lesley, because actually there’s a local shop in my community that does require you or is starting to require patrons to wear masks when they come inside. It’s like this really small like store. So, I mean, have any places reinstated mask mandates here in the Bay Area?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>There are a few health care facilities in Northern California. Kaiser Santa Rosa does have a mask requirement. Some Sutter facilities are requiring their health care workers to wear masks later on this fall. Santa Clara County is going to require health care workers to wear masks, so it’s starting to come forward. But outside of health care facilities, it’s generally just recommended and there is no indication that requirements are likely to come back from public health officials.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>How would you characterize like where we’re at now? Like, is this still a pandemic? Are we now sort of in this moment where this is just going to be a seasonal illness like everyone’s sort of been saying it would? It would eventually become just like the flu? Like, where are we at now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It’s endemic. It’s going to be around. I think we passed that threshold a while ago, but all of us feel a little almost like, I don’t know, I feel internally like my gears are not quite clicking in yet in terms of how to assess the risk of COVID. This is the same bug that killed more than a million people in the U.S. and now it it’s not nearly as scary. We can test for it. We do have treatments. We do have vaccines. So we’re in a very different moment. But kind of similarly to how people probably felt after the Spanish flu. There was a fear of this thing for quite some time afterwards. It’s not how we associate and relate to the flu today. Right. And I think we’re in that moment of COVID as well. We’re still kind of figuring out how dangerous this thing is. And it’s very individual in terms of how to assess your risk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Lesley, thank you so much for breaking this down for us. I really appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was Lesley McClurg, a health correspondent for KQED. The people you heard from at the top of this show were from a recent episode of KQED’s Forum, which you can catch every weekday from 9 to 11 a.m. on 88.5 FM or wherever you listen to podcasts. This 25-minute conversation with Lesley was cut down and edited by producer Maria Esquinca. Senior editor Alan Montecillo scored it and produced it. Shout out as well to the rest of the podcast squad here at KQED. That’s Jen Chien, our director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager. César Saldaña is our engagement producer, and Holly Kernan is our chief content officer. The Bay is a production of member-supported KQED. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Thanks for listening. Peace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "i-think-of-him-every-day-banko-browns-trans-family-remembers-him",
"title": "'I Think of Him Every Day': A Conversation With Banko Brown's Trans Family",
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"headTitle": "‘I Think of Him Every Day’: A Conversation With Banko Brown’s Trans Family | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11950796/banko-brown-family-files-wrongful-death-lawsuit-against-walgreens-security-company\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Banko Brown\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> was a Black trans man who was shot and killed by a Walgreens security guard in late April. Today, KQED’s Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez interviews three members of Banko Brown’s community from the Young Women’s Freedom Center — Xavier Davenport, Kazani Kalani Finao, and Juju Pikes-Prince — about Brown’s life, and what they believe is necessary for trans people to be truly safe in San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was scored by producer Maria Esquinca.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC3000100033&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11953821/what-banko-browns-queer-trans-community-says-they-need-for-safety-joy-in-sf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What Banko Brown’s Queer, Trans Community Says They Need for Safety, Joy in SF\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. And welcome to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. What is it going to take to make San Francisco truly safe for trans people? For one, stable housing. According to Our Trans Home SF, one out of two trans people in the city have been unhoused. 70% report being harassed while staying in homeless shelters, making one of the few choices for at least temporary housing unsafe for most trans people. Housing was a necessity that didn’t come easy for Banko Brown, a black trans man shot and killed by a Walgreens security guard on Market Street in April of this year. And for Brown’s chosen family, his queer community in San Francisco. His situation wasn’t unique, but an example of the worst case scenario when stable housing is out of reach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Homelessness is when you do not have rights to a space of your own. Banko never had a space of his own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>My colleague and reporter Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez sat down with Banko Brown’s shows and family to discuss life as a homeless queer person in San Francisco. Banko’s life before his death and what it’s going to take to truly make the city a safe place for queer and trans people. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>If you could just very briefly tell me a little bit about yourself. Introduce yourself to folks who are listening with your name, who you are, and your relation to Banko.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>Hello, my name is JuJu. I’m from the Young Woman’s Freedom Center. I’m a youth organizer. I officially met Banko maybe a year ago. But we have– we share relatives. His nieces and nephews are my little cousins. So, I’ve always known Banko, but we never spoke for about a year ago. And that’s when I introduced him to my sister. And he became my sister’s chosen child and I’m the auntie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>I’m Xavier. I met Banko through Young Woman’s Freedom Center. He became my mentee. And that was during the pandemic. We were focused on a lot of projects that were going to empower trans masculinity. I wanted to make sure we had a group during the pandemic, like a peer to peer support group, because the pandemic was very hard for a lot of Transmasculine folks. A lot of them were essential workers. A lot of them were creators that lost jobs. Some of them were sex workers that lost jobs. So my focus was to empower those people and make sure that they were heard. And so Banko would come to those groups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>My name’s Kazani. I met Banko through Young Woman’s Freedom as well. We just had amazing, great conversations. Just always sparring with each other, bouncing back with, like, fun ideas. He uses a bright, outgoing apartment. Conversation was always immaculate, always amazing. Of he was a visionary. The struggle not only brought us together, but like I was able to, like, really build a relation with him based on, like, his gifts. He was very creative, his swag, his drip, like he was a trendsetter to me. He’s definitely inspirational to me to like, you know, him, me younger to me, like I always share with him. Like, bro, you give me so much confidence, you give me so much courage for me to be me. He didn’t even know it. But again, he was just natural at that. Whatever I remember of him is his drips, sauce, smile, hugs, goofiness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>All the jokes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>Hell yeah, hell yeah. He funny, he hella funny. We always was direct. He pushed me to always have hard conversations. Be honest, being honest. And so to have that and to tell somebody yes, to hold me accountable, I’ll take that any day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Banko was in and out of homelessness. And I wonder if you could talk about what was – what the housing situation was like for Banko and what you saw him go through.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>When I first had met Banko, he was housed at some point. Then later on, when we lost another trans sister in the community, Ivory Nicole, that’s when, like, you know, stuff started to come out like, Oh, he’s looking for housing. He has nowhere to go. With only so much a person can do for an individual. It’s hard out here. I’ve been through. But for somebody to sleep on BART and got to blow time just to get it start today. If you go to the center, the $50 gift card or 25 gift card, no one’s gonna ever understand that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>And we were talking about sleeping on Bart. We’re talking about Banko Banko. You said he drifted in and out of it yourself. Can you talk a little bit about homelessness?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>Navigating homelessness in San Francisco is hard. As hard and it’s expensive. No matter way. Being homeless is still expensive. I was homeless for about two years, maybe a year or two years. I didn’t know what to do and it just wasn’t working out. We were living in McGuire. I thought his his parents were going to take a friend, but that wasn’t the case. Then even shelters. Shelters don’t protect you. Shelters don’t protect my people either. Stuff gets stolen. There’s fights that break out. People look at us like we’re nasty. So it’s things like that that we still have to navigate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Have you heard them say that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>Yeah. I mean, I’ve had problems at the outset and you can’t do nothing about it. You don’t lose this part. So it’s one of those things you got to say to sleep, wake up and do something productive. And so you get called for housing and permanent housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Xavier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Where do we start?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Well, it would then go first, and then we’ll go on to your own experiences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Banko never had a space of his own. Banko had been in and out of shelter, in and out of people’s homes, sometimes even some people’s own sorrows. So let’s really break down what that really looks like when you are living in a one room space with another individual. You do not have privacy. Nine times out of ten, being a transmasculine identify person, especially being black, you have to render some type of services to stay there, whether it be sexual, whether it be drugs. So when we talk about black men and being fetishized, Banko dealt with a lot of that. And so those people would be the people to take him in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Here, kind of like not in a long Kazani like like you’ve been there. Have you been there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>I mean, shit’s hella complex. So, for me personally, couch surfing always been my my survival tactic since I can remember of couch surfing, refusing to go to shelters because of horror stories I heard from former homies of going there and, you know, being violated. My mama, she went to prison when I was right after my fifth grade graduation in 2000. That’s when her body album dropped, too, so that that summer was live. So, you know, like, my mom was big shoes, shoes surviving, too. And so her like being sentenced to prison in state prison, being a young person, I mean, to pick up quick to hustle and survive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>When your mom went to prison, you talk about who who else was there for you, if anyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>Or family for her immediate family, blood relatives. My mom got nine siblings, eight total that are living. I’m also born and raised in San Francisco when my mom went to prison. They were figuring now they system impacted they in and out of jails allocated. So I just got a bed in somebody’s house or whatever that looks like in that moment. I just had to make sure I had to protect myself, take care of the things I have for the moment, and just keep trying to get through at 11 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>And can we talk a little bit about Banko in terms of the safety? You know, obviously Banko went through the least safe thing you could imagine with the most terrible outcome you can imagine. What was Banko experiencing in terms of safety during this whole process?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Banko was actually experiencing a lot of issues with violence happening in some of the places that he was trying to stay at. Nobody’s perfect, you know, especially when we’re talking about community, right? People have all kinds of issues and trauma that they are that they’re trying to live through as well. I definitely know that there were a few times where, you know, he was upset from violent experiences that had taken place. And what we all do, right, we get upset. We want to do something about it. So, you know, really trying to calm him down to, like, see a different side of it, for him to just move through the trauma that he was experiencing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Yeah. And I don’t know how much you all followed kind of the public discussion of what happened to Banko afterwards. A lot of what I heard was a kind of a questioning of like, what did Bianca’s trans identity or black trans identity have to do with the shooting, especially when the security guard themselves was was black. I wonder if you could talk a bit about for people who don’t understand what does Mango’s black trans identity have to do with what brought him there that day and what happened? And whoever wants to jump in idea or something.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So this is Xavier or what? What what that all has to do with is when you are a young, black, transmasculine identified person, people see that he walks in, he’s dark skinned, he has a hat on a t shirt, he has a little bit of a like a goatee or, you know, something growing in. And as another black man or being another man, there is a fight for power for who is the man for Banko. You know, the thought process is you look like a little boy or you’re trying to pretend to be a little boy. Because let’s be clear, Banko had not had, you know, top surgery. He had not been going through that part of of medical transitioning. So you have a masculine person with visible breast coming at you. You are going to now struggle for your manhood. I’m going to show you who’s boss is something that for people that are even lesbians who are more masculine looking. There is a struggle between men and any form of masculinity that they can see to them isn’t necessarily real.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>So it’s a it’s like a challenge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>It is a challenge. It very much is a challenge. I know this first experience. I have dealt with this my entire life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>And if I can just highlight that it’s true. And these are cases that’s not getting covered. And this is Juju speaking of Black Trans Men getting killed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>I wonder if we can shift a little. I do want to know how that support can come through from family. Are you at a point of acceptance with your family right now and if you could touch on that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Me and my mother understand what’s happening, but my father and my my siblings that my father has. They’re not. They were only produced by my father. My father’s children. They have a bit of a hard time. And so we don’t necessarily talk the way that people would think family should or relatives should. But, you know, my mother respects who I am. My mother understands what has what has taken place. And she’s accepted that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>I mean. Then if they’re very understanding our friends there with ties. But when I told my mom everything and broke it down that you don’t want to be a child, right. This kind of anything, you have to take a step back. My father, on the other hand, he’s more big on education. He didn’t. He taught him. He taught me, You don’t care what I do. He wants me to graduate and I’ll ever be like, so-and-so. I got it. You’ve been away. But I still had a heart and I still struggle. Identity came into play. I mean, it was still some some things going on at home. She understood. She knew, like, okay, as long as you’re safe, you know what? The protocols lie, you know, And I love you. I just I want to say this, too, because there was narratives being painted. Banko do have family that do care and love. But there was, you know, at some point everyone went their own ways. So I do want to just that on the record. He did have family that they can’t love, but he was looking for looking for a space. In people’s hearts to fill that void that he has been missing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>This goes on for me. My mother, she told me straight up, like, be you, son. Be you, son. And for me, that’s a fucking privilege. Like, you know, for someone who’s being who they are, like me, like for my mom to just show up right away. How she was able to just accept me. For me, it was just like a restart of our relationship as a as a mother and son. She’s just a gift to me, you know? And so what I’ve been doing with my folks is just like, sharing my mama with them. You know, share my mama with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>When you mean to share your mama, do you mean you share your mother with other transpeople who don’t have that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>Trans people, all people, even when they struggle like my mom just signs up like, I love you, I forgive you. And so I share my mama with my folks. And it’s my duty to make sure to create spaces for folks to be themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>What I want to ask you all lastly was about joy, because we’ve been talking about hardship. We’ve been talking about really hard things. But the goal is joy, right? I mean, let’s talk about the mechanical and let’s talk about the heart to the mechanical part is if you had these city leaders who are all talking about what happened to Banko, what would you say needs to change? And then after that, I want you to tell me what your joy looks like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I’ll start this, Xavier. I would say what needs to change is the systems in how they construct homelessness. There needs to be shelters specific for transmasculine folks. There needs to be shelters for trans people, period. But trans men need their own space. There needs to be more black, trans masculine leaders. There’s nobody else that can speak about black transness except for black trans people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>And how about the joy? What is your joy look like right now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>My joy looks like, you know the rest of the work that I do. The Bay Area Transmasculine calendar is doing a second premiere of a calendar that we started last year with a group of Transmasculine folks to continue to ensure that Transmasculine folks are seen and can receive joy in seeing and having representation of themselves in all bodies, in all forms of trans masculine bodies, and in all forms of trans masculine and different cultures and ethnicities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>That’s beautiful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>Did you figuring out the funding, figuring out where money can go to? I definitely believe that there should be more programs for black trans men, even from our community. My film Queens My Doors. We need to serve our queens, our triumph queens if I’m getting emotional. And it’s because I’m thinking about the joy part living and finding purpose. Picking up someone else’s purpose when they couldn’t find their purpose. And knowing that I’m here and I can also at least set some type of story for someone just to save surface and hopefully help another next person, next generation to continue to do this advocacy work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Because any changes you want to see and then tell us about your joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>More action. People need to really start, especially like these politicians. Folks move in and power like really, really start, you know, on the ground and get dirty with us. All the years of just all the years I’ve been living in living in the city, I have not seen nothing that has been pivotal yet, specifically tailored to supporting trans people of color, people that are our natives, the first couple folks that are still here. There’s so many things that we need. So many corporations as are going out to rent something, hotels that’s going to manage or that how do we take those metro shelters, make an independent living for folks without all the stipulations and the requirements, because that’s overwhelming for our people to having to jump through these hoops and things and having to retraumatize ourselves just to get a fucking bed. Come on, now, we’ve got to really redefine what a sanctuary in San Francisco. As for my joy. I really love what you said. You, you know, picking up somebody else’s purpose. And this moment, that’s what it is for me personally. Is it bringing up some of the joys, the joy and the beauty that I learned about Banko and where he was dreaming of envisioning of, and how do you incorporate it not just in the individual people, but in community, in people, in organizations, in how we just do life and learn how to grieve and love myself at the same time. Because I have to say he is not the last person. And so while I’m still here, I’m building on my armor because I’m doing God’s work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>So would you say that Banko has influenced where your life is going?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>I think about his nieces and nephews. I really do every day. I wake up and you say their names and how they’re having a great day in the moment. That’s how I carry you. And that’s what I think of him every day. Because, again, trans people being here and we’re won’t keep coming here. Like it or not, you want to get on board whether you like it or not. We still here? We are forever going to be here. We take care of the village.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was KQED reporter Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez in conversation with Xavier Davenport. JuJu Pikes-Prince and Kazani Kalani Finao. Their conversation was cut down and edited by producer Maria Esquinca. It was edited by senior editor Alan Montecillo. The Bay is a production of KQED in San Francisco. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Talk to you next time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11950796/banko-brown-family-files-wrongful-death-lawsuit-against-walgreens-security-company\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Banko Brown\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> was a Black trans man who was shot and killed by a Walgreens security guard in late April. Today, KQED’s Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez interviews three members of Banko Brown’s community from the Young Women’s Freedom Center — Xavier Davenport, Kazani Kalani Finao, and Juju Pikes-Prince — about Brown’s life, and what they believe is necessary for trans people to be truly safe in San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was scored by producer Maria Esquinca.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC3000100033&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11953821/what-banko-browns-queer-trans-community-says-they-need-for-safety-joy-in-sf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What Banko Brown’s Queer, Trans Community Says They Need for Safety, Joy in SF\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. And welcome to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. What is it going to take to make San Francisco truly safe for trans people? For one, stable housing. According to Our Trans Home SF, one out of two trans people in the city have been unhoused. 70% report being harassed while staying in homeless shelters, making one of the few choices for at least temporary housing unsafe for most trans people. Housing was a necessity that didn’t come easy for Banko Brown, a black trans man shot and killed by a Walgreens security guard on Market Street in April of this year. And for Brown’s chosen family, his queer community in San Francisco. His situation wasn’t unique, but an example of the worst case scenario when stable housing is out of reach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Homelessness is when you do not have rights to a space of your own. Banko never had a space of his own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>My colleague and reporter Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez sat down with Banko Brown’s shows and family to discuss life as a homeless queer person in San Francisco. Banko’s life before his death and what it’s going to take to truly make the city a safe place for queer and trans people. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>If you could just very briefly tell me a little bit about yourself. Introduce yourself to folks who are listening with your name, who you are, and your relation to Banko.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>Hello, my name is JuJu. I’m from the Young Woman’s Freedom Center. I’m a youth organizer. I officially met Banko maybe a year ago. But we have– we share relatives. His nieces and nephews are my little cousins. So, I’ve always known Banko, but we never spoke for about a year ago. And that’s when I introduced him to my sister. And he became my sister’s chosen child and I’m the auntie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>I’m Xavier. I met Banko through Young Woman’s Freedom Center. He became my mentee. And that was during the pandemic. We were focused on a lot of projects that were going to empower trans masculinity. I wanted to make sure we had a group during the pandemic, like a peer to peer support group, because the pandemic was very hard for a lot of Transmasculine folks. A lot of them were essential workers. A lot of them were creators that lost jobs. Some of them were sex workers that lost jobs. So my focus was to empower those people and make sure that they were heard. And so Banko would come to those groups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>My name’s Kazani. I met Banko through Young Woman’s Freedom as well. We just had amazing, great conversations. Just always sparring with each other, bouncing back with, like, fun ideas. He uses a bright, outgoing apartment. Conversation was always immaculate, always amazing. Of he was a visionary. The struggle not only brought us together, but like I was able to, like, really build a relation with him based on, like, his gifts. He was very creative, his swag, his drip, like he was a trendsetter to me. He’s definitely inspirational to me to like, you know, him, me younger to me, like I always share with him. Like, bro, you give me so much confidence, you give me so much courage for me to be me. He didn’t even know it. But again, he was just natural at that. Whatever I remember of him is his drips, sauce, smile, hugs, goofiness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>All the jokes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>Hell yeah, hell yeah. He funny, he hella funny. We always was direct. He pushed me to always have hard conversations. Be honest, being honest. And so to have that and to tell somebody yes, to hold me accountable, I’ll take that any day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Banko was in and out of homelessness. And I wonder if you could talk about what was – what the housing situation was like for Banko and what you saw him go through.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>When I first had met Banko, he was housed at some point. Then later on, when we lost another trans sister in the community, Ivory Nicole, that’s when, like, you know, stuff started to come out like, Oh, he’s looking for housing. He has nowhere to go. With only so much a person can do for an individual. It’s hard out here. I’ve been through. But for somebody to sleep on BART and got to blow time just to get it start today. If you go to the center, the $50 gift card or 25 gift card, no one’s gonna ever understand that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>And we were talking about sleeping on Bart. We’re talking about Banko Banko. You said he drifted in and out of it yourself. Can you talk a little bit about homelessness?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>Navigating homelessness in San Francisco is hard. As hard and it’s expensive. No matter way. Being homeless is still expensive. I was homeless for about two years, maybe a year or two years. I didn’t know what to do and it just wasn’t working out. We were living in McGuire. I thought his his parents were going to take a friend, but that wasn’t the case. Then even shelters. Shelters don’t protect you. Shelters don’t protect my people either. Stuff gets stolen. There’s fights that break out. People look at us like we’re nasty. So it’s things like that that we still have to navigate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Have you heard them say that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>Yeah. I mean, I’ve had problems at the outset and you can’t do nothing about it. You don’t lose this part. So it’s one of those things you got to say to sleep, wake up and do something productive. And so you get called for housing and permanent housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Xavier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Where do we start?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Well, it would then go first, and then we’ll go on to your own experiences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Banko never had a space of his own. Banko had been in and out of shelter, in and out of people’s homes, sometimes even some people’s own sorrows. So let’s really break down what that really looks like when you are living in a one room space with another individual. You do not have privacy. Nine times out of ten, being a transmasculine identify person, especially being black, you have to render some type of services to stay there, whether it be sexual, whether it be drugs. So when we talk about black men and being fetishized, Banko dealt with a lot of that. And so those people would be the people to take him in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Here, kind of like not in a long Kazani like like you’ve been there. Have you been there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>I mean, shit’s hella complex. So, for me personally, couch surfing always been my my survival tactic since I can remember of couch surfing, refusing to go to shelters because of horror stories I heard from former homies of going there and, you know, being violated. My mama, she went to prison when I was right after my fifth grade graduation in 2000. That’s when her body album dropped, too, so that that summer was live. So, you know, like, my mom was big shoes, shoes surviving, too. And so her like being sentenced to prison in state prison, being a young person, I mean, to pick up quick to hustle and survive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>When your mom went to prison, you talk about who who else was there for you, if anyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>Or family for her immediate family, blood relatives. My mom got nine siblings, eight total that are living. I’m also born and raised in San Francisco when my mom went to prison. They were figuring now they system impacted they in and out of jails allocated. So I just got a bed in somebody’s house or whatever that looks like in that moment. I just had to make sure I had to protect myself, take care of the things I have for the moment, and just keep trying to get through at 11 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>And can we talk a little bit about Banko in terms of the safety? You know, obviously Banko went through the least safe thing you could imagine with the most terrible outcome you can imagine. What was Banko experiencing in terms of safety during this whole process?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Banko was actually experiencing a lot of issues with violence happening in some of the places that he was trying to stay at. Nobody’s perfect, you know, especially when we’re talking about community, right? People have all kinds of issues and trauma that they are that they’re trying to live through as well. I definitely know that there were a few times where, you know, he was upset from violent experiences that had taken place. And what we all do, right, we get upset. We want to do something about it. So, you know, really trying to calm him down to, like, see a different side of it, for him to just move through the trauma that he was experiencing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Yeah. And I don’t know how much you all followed kind of the public discussion of what happened to Banko afterwards. A lot of what I heard was a kind of a questioning of like, what did Bianca’s trans identity or black trans identity have to do with the shooting, especially when the security guard themselves was was black. I wonder if you could talk a bit about for people who don’t understand what does Mango’s black trans identity have to do with what brought him there that day and what happened? And whoever wants to jump in idea or something.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So this is Xavier or what? What what that all has to do with is when you are a young, black, transmasculine identified person, people see that he walks in, he’s dark skinned, he has a hat on a t shirt, he has a little bit of a like a goatee or, you know, something growing in. And as another black man or being another man, there is a fight for power for who is the man for Banko. You know, the thought process is you look like a little boy or you’re trying to pretend to be a little boy. Because let’s be clear, Banko had not had, you know, top surgery. He had not been going through that part of of medical transitioning. So you have a masculine person with visible breast coming at you. You are going to now struggle for your manhood. I’m going to show you who’s boss is something that for people that are even lesbians who are more masculine looking. There is a struggle between men and any form of masculinity that they can see to them isn’t necessarily real.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>So it’s a it’s like a challenge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>It is a challenge. It very much is a challenge. I know this first experience. I have dealt with this my entire life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>And if I can just highlight that it’s true. And these are cases that’s not getting covered. And this is Juju speaking of Black Trans Men getting killed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>I wonder if we can shift a little. I do want to know how that support can come through from family. Are you at a point of acceptance with your family right now and if you could touch on that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Me and my mother understand what’s happening, but my father and my my siblings that my father has. They’re not. They were only produced by my father. My father’s children. They have a bit of a hard time. And so we don’t necessarily talk the way that people would think family should or relatives should. But, you know, my mother respects who I am. My mother understands what has what has taken place. And she’s accepted that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>I mean. Then if they’re very understanding our friends there with ties. But when I told my mom everything and broke it down that you don’t want to be a child, right. This kind of anything, you have to take a step back. My father, on the other hand, he’s more big on education. He didn’t. He taught him. He taught me, You don’t care what I do. He wants me to graduate and I’ll ever be like, so-and-so. I got it. You’ve been away. But I still had a heart and I still struggle. Identity came into play. I mean, it was still some some things going on at home. She understood. She knew, like, okay, as long as you’re safe, you know what? The protocols lie, you know, And I love you. I just I want to say this, too, because there was narratives being painted. Banko do have family that do care and love. But there was, you know, at some point everyone went their own ways. So I do want to just that on the record. He did have family that they can’t love, but he was looking for looking for a space. In people’s hearts to fill that void that he has been missing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>This goes on for me. My mother, she told me straight up, like, be you, son. Be you, son. And for me, that’s a fucking privilege. Like, you know, for someone who’s being who they are, like me, like for my mom to just show up right away. How she was able to just accept me. For me, it was just like a restart of our relationship as a as a mother and son. She’s just a gift to me, you know? And so what I’ve been doing with my folks is just like, sharing my mama with them. You know, share my mama with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>When you mean to share your mama, do you mean you share your mother with other transpeople who don’t have that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>Trans people, all people, even when they struggle like my mom just signs up like, I love you, I forgive you. And so I share my mama with my folks. And it’s my duty to make sure to create spaces for folks to be themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>What I want to ask you all lastly was about joy, because we’ve been talking about hardship. We’ve been talking about really hard things. But the goal is joy, right? I mean, let’s talk about the mechanical and let’s talk about the heart to the mechanical part is if you had these city leaders who are all talking about what happened to Banko, what would you say needs to change? And then after that, I want you to tell me what your joy looks like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I’ll start this, Xavier. I would say what needs to change is the systems in how they construct homelessness. There needs to be shelters specific for transmasculine folks. There needs to be shelters for trans people, period. But trans men need their own space. There needs to be more black, trans masculine leaders. There’s nobody else that can speak about black transness except for black trans people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>And how about the joy? What is your joy look like right now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>My joy looks like, you know the rest of the work that I do. The Bay Area Transmasculine calendar is doing a second premiere of a calendar that we started last year with a group of Transmasculine folks to continue to ensure that Transmasculine folks are seen and can receive joy in seeing and having representation of themselves in all bodies, in all forms of trans masculine bodies, and in all forms of trans masculine and different cultures and ethnicities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>That’s beautiful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>Did you figuring out the funding, figuring out where money can go to? I definitely believe that there should be more programs for black trans men, even from our community. My film Queens My Doors. We need to serve our queens, our triumph queens if I’m getting emotional. And it’s because I’m thinking about the joy part living and finding purpose. Picking up someone else’s purpose when they couldn’t find their purpose. And knowing that I’m here and I can also at least set some type of story for someone just to save surface and hopefully help another next person, next generation to continue to do this advocacy work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Because any changes you want to see and then tell us about your joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>More action. People need to really start, especially like these politicians. Folks move in and power like really, really start, you know, on the ground and get dirty with us. All the years of just all the years I’ve been living in living in the city, I have not seen nothing that has been pivotal yet, specifically tailored to supporting trans people of color, people that are our natives, the first couple folks that are still here. There’s so many things that we need. So many corporations as are going out to rent something, hotels that’s going to manage or that how do we take those metro shelters, make an independent living for folks without all the stipulations and the requirements, because that’s overwhelming for our people to having to jump through these hoops and things and having to retraumatize ourselves just to get a fucking bed. Come on, now, we’ve got to really redefine what a sanctuary in San Francisco. As for my joy. I really love what you said. You, you know, picking up somebody else’s purpose. And this moment, that’s what it is for me personally. Is it bringing up some of the joys, the joy and the beauty that I learned about Banko and where he was dreaming of envisioning of, and how do you incorporate it not just in the individual people, but in community, in people, in organizations, in how we just do life and learn how to grieve and love myself at the same time. Because I have to say he is not the last person. And so while I’m still here, I’m building on my armor because I’m doing God’s work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>So would you say that Banko has influenced where your life is going?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>I think about his nieces and nephews. I really do every day. I wake up and you say their names and how they’re having a great day in the moment. That’s how I carry you. And that’s what I think of him every day. Because, again, trans people being here and we’re won’t keep coming here. Like it or not, you want to get on board whether you like it or not. We still here? We are forever going to be here. We take care of the village.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was KQED reporter Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez in conversation with Xavier Davenport. JuJu Pikes-Prince and Kazani Kalani Finao. Their conversation was cut down and edited by producer Maria Esquinca. It was edited by senior editor Alan Montecillo. The Bay is a production of KQED in San Francisco. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Talk to you next time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\n\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "are-the-redwood-trees-ok",
"title": "Are the Redwood Trees OK?",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On this Labor Day weekend, we’re sharing an episode from KQED’s Bay Curious podcast about what’s happening to our state’s iconic redwood trees, and how we can support them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"card card--enclosed grey\">\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC3075408303&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11953504/the-bay-areas-famous-redwood-trees-are-struggling\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">originally published on June 22, 2023.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. California’s redwood trees are iconic. I mean, people travel from far away on long weekends like this one just to stand at their base, look up, and admire their magic. But right now, these amazing trees are struggling. And they could use our help. So, today, KQED’s \u003cem>Bay Curious\u003c/em> – a show that answers listener questions about the Bay Area – dives deep into what’s happening to our redwoods and what we can do to support them. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Julie Menter and her husband moved into a house in Oakland in 2017. There were lots of things they loved about their new home, but especially the three big redwood trees in the backyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Julie Menter: \u003c/strong>It feels like it’s a really big part of the identity to me of the city of Oakland. Like if you look at the hills and the trees…being able to go in nature while being in a city feels really important to me for my mental health and balance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Last year, Julie started to worry about the trees. One of them had lost almost all of its leaves and, despite watering it, it wasn’t bouncing back. It had to come down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Julie Menter: \u003c/strong>It’s so sad. And I think it’s sad both for the tree because, you know, they’re such beautiful trees, they’re so old and majestic. But also scary to be like, “Whoa, this tree is not doing well, the one next to it isn’t, the ones in my neighborhood don’t seem to be doing well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Julie’s noticed not just in her backyard, but all around Oakland, redwood trees don’t look so good. Around her neighborhood… off highways… really all over the East Bay, Julie has noticed the trees looking dry and scraggly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Julie Menter: \u003c/strong>So I’m wondering, is something happening to the redwood trees in the Bay Area? And if so, what is it and is there anything we can do about it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price and this is Bay Curious. Today on the show, we’re tackling California’s state tree: the coast redwood. We’ll dig into why it’s unique to this area, what makes it so special… and also how it’s adapting to challenges like climate change and urbanization. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We sent reporter and redwood tree enthusiast Dana Cronin out to answer Julie’s question about what’s up with the redwoods…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>Sound of walking through a forest \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>There’s a really special feeling I get every time I walk through a redwood forest. My mind goes quiet, the only audible sound coming from the crunch of my footsteps. The temperature is always perfect; even on the hottest day, it’s still cool among the trees. And the smell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin (in scene)\u003c/strong>: It smells so good. There’s just no, like, even just stepping outside of my car in the parking lot, I was like (breathes in, breathes out) It’s just so good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>I’m in the middle of the Roberts Redwood Recreational forest in the Oakland hills… hiking with Deborah Ziertan, who works for Save the Redwoods League. She’s gonna help me teach you all about redwood trees and why they’re unique to our region. Then, later on, we’ll get to the heart of Julie’s question … what’s happening to them? And just a note – for this episode we’ll mostly focus on coastal redwoods, which grow no more than 50 miles from the coastline. Now, Deborah grew up here in Oakland and visited these redwoods frequently as a kid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/strong>I don’t think I fully appreciated the redwoods until I went away to school and then came back as an adult. And this was the place that I would hike to clear my head. And these were the forests that I came to. And so it is a very special place for me here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Deborah has now dedicated her life to these trees. She’s an educator with Save the Redwoods League. Her job is to teach school-aged kids about them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>Sounds of children in a forest \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/strong>Good morning students! \u003cstrong>Students: \u003c/strong>Good morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>I tagged along recently with Deborah, as she guided about thirty fifth graders from a local elementary school through the Reinhardt Redwood\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">Regional Park. The students are spread out across three wooden picnic tables, fidgeting in their seats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/strong>Can I have everyone’s eyes up here? Ok. Will everyone look up and take a look? We are in a little redwood grove. So these are all redwood trees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>After setting a few ground rules… no touching plants… be quiet while others are talking… Miss Deborah — as they call her — launches into the lesson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/strong>Do you know anything about redwood trees at all? Raise your hand if you know anything about redwoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>A student’s hand shoots up.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/strong>Yes. They are really tall. They are. Redwoods are the tallest tree\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">in the whole entire world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Redwood trees can grow more than 300 feet tall. That’s taller than a 30-story skyscraper. And not only are they the tallest tree in the world, they’re also among the biggest. Their trucks can grow nearly 30 feet wide. So, how are they able to get so big?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/strong>So everyone do this with your arms. It’s okay if you kind of lightly touch your neighbors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Deborah holds her arms out straight to the sides, like a scarecrow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/strong>One of the things that makes redwoods so unique is that they actually hold hands with their roots underneath the ground, and that’s how they’re able to grow to be so tall and not fall down is that they help each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Redwood roots are shallow and extend outward instead of down. Their roots extend out almost as far as the tree is tall … and they essentially hold each other up. In addition to being really big… redwoods can also live a very long\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">time… like more than 2,000 years. That means some coastal redwoods today were alive during the Roman Empire. Those old-growth redwoods, which now only account for 5 percent of all redwood trees, can store more carbon than any other forest on the planet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/strong>So we are pretty lucky to have redwood trees here in Oakland. And people travel from all over the world to come and see redwood trees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>Magical sounding music \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Redwood trees also have unique ways of reproducing. They produce seeds, like any other tree, but they can also sprout new trees from their roots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/strong>So often redwood trees, you will find them in circles that we call fairy rings. Because if a parent tree gets hurt or injured, it will send out these baby sprouts into these circles. And it’s kind of like a little family growing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>They’re basically clones of their parents. That’s why you rarely see redwood trees standing alone, and more often see them together in a circle formation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Deborah tells the students we can learn a lot from redwood trees. They exist in communities and rely on each other for support. They have hard exteriors that protect them from things like wildfires, but they’re soft on the inside. Deborah says… they’re not so different from us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>Music ends \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>The earliest redwood trees existed more than 200 million years ago… alongside dinosaurs in the Jurassic period. Their natural range has shrunk a lot in that time… now they mostly stretch up and down the northern California coast… as far north as the Oregon border and down to about Big Sur.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Their distribution tracks with another iconic California phenomenon… coastal fog. So, in the summer months, when there’s a lack of rainfall, redwood trees essentially drink the fog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/strong>It’s almost like a sponge sucking in that water. And then when their needles get full, also like a sponge, any of that excess water will drip to the ground. And it’s almost as if they’re creating their own rain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>And they’ve adapted to this region in other ways, too. They’re highly adapted to fire. Take the 2020 CZU Lightning Complex fire, for example, which burned through most of Big Basin Redwoods near Santa Cruz. Three years later, that forest is green again… and the old-growth redwood trees there are still standing strong.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Redwoods also survived a period of severe logging in the late 18-hundreds when, after the Gold Rush, San Francisco was booming and timber was in high demand. Many trees didn’t survive, though. In fact, most of the trees now living in the Oakland hills are ones that have grown since that period of logging… young, by redwoods standards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Luckily, a movement was underway to protect redwood forests. Save the Redwoods League… where Deborah works… was founded in 1918… and helped to accelerate the preservation of redwood trees across Northern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/strong>People started to see the value in recreation and see the value in these trees not as lumber, but for health and wellness and for preservation purposes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>Music in \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>But now they’re facing new challenges. As our question-asker Julie noticed… Redwood trees in the Bay Area are struggling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Todd Dawson: \u003c/strong>If you walk and you look up now, in most urban areas, I think everybody can pretty much see that, you know, there’s some tops that are dying back. There’s a lot of, you know, brown foliage in the crowns of these trees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>That’s Todd Dawson. He’s an environmental scientist and professor at UC Berkeley and has been studying redwood trees for decades. We met up on a foggy morning at the UC Berkeley campus… home to many unhealthy-looking redwood trees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Todd Dawson: \u003c/strong>See the thinning crowns of the one right out there in the distance? \u003cstrong>Dana Cronin (in scene): \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Todd Dawson: \u003c/strong>There you go. And you just see that over and over and over, repeated in so many places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Todd says trees are suffering all over the Bay Area… even up through Santa Rosa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>And, there are two main reasons for that suffering. Let’s take them one at a time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>Music ends \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>The first reason is urbanization. The Bay Area has gone through a drastic transformation over the last century…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Todd Dawson: \u003c/strong>And with all the concrete and all the pollution that’s associated with urban sprawl, the trees are suffering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>That’s mostly because sidewalks and roadways are impinging on redwoods’ root systems. Remember how their roots extend out really wide?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Todd Dawson: \u003c/strong>Here we are standing ten feet away from a redwood tree on a concrete sidewalk. And we’ve set concrete on top of a big part of the root system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it’s really going to have a very, very negative impact on the ability of that tree to get the water it needs, get the nutrients it needs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>We’re basically suffocating them. And on top of that, we have reason number two… climate change… which is impacting redwood trees in different ways. That fog that redwoods drink in, well, it turns out it’s on the decline. In fact, since the 1950’s it’s declined about 30% during the summertime… when redwoods really need it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>That decline, coupled with periods of severe drought in California, is putting a lot of stress on the trees. Especially Giant Sequoias… another type of redwood that mostly lives in the Sierra Nevada. Thousands of trees there have died due to a lack of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Todd Dawson: \u003c/strong>The water deficit itself didn’t really kill all those trees. It weakened them in a way where other pests and pathogens got in there and basically wiped them out like beetles, fungi, other things like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>In addition to a lack of water… more intense fires are also impacting those trees. Although they have adapted to fire over the centuries… they can’t handle the extreme fires we’re seeing now caused by climate change and bad forest management.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>All in all, Todd says redwood forests are struggling along their perimeters. As the wildland-urban interface stretches further and further into the wild… redwood trees are increasingly exposed to human impacts. They’re losing their buffer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Todd Dawson: \u003c/strong>I think that’s the future, is we’re going to see a patchier world. And that’s really disappointing and concerning for me because, you know, we sit at the heart of that. Humans are really the ones that are in control and are having the negative impacts that we now see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Now, I think we’ve answered most of Julie’s questions… except for one. What can we do about it? Todd has a couple thoughts on that. First, Julie,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">regarding your backyard redwood trees… Todd says you can try watering them…. But…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Todd Dawson: \u003c/strong>The trees require so much water. They also require pretty special microclimates, meaning that they like it cooler. They like these moist, foggy summers like we’re seeing today. You know, And I think you can’t really recreate those conditions as a person. Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately, he says, irrigation is a band-aid solution at best. Because the problems redwood trees are facing now are much more systemic. And that’s how we need to think about solutions, Todd says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>One of those solutions is to protect redwood forests by getting them in the hands of governments and nonprofits… like Deborah’s Save the Redwoods League. Todd says that work is critical to ensuring the trees’ survival here in Northern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>Whimsical music begins \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Todd Dawson: \u003c/strong>The forests are just so special, these big cathedrals with these amazing and gigantic trees that there’s just nothing like that. And I think anybody who’s ever walked through a forest for the first time just is in awe of what a special place and what a special feel it has. And so I’m really concerned about them and I want to keep working with them and I’d love to see those forests protected, you know, in perpetuity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Protecting them now means securing their existence for our kids, grandkids… and maybe even humans two THOUSAND years from now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">**\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Dana Cronin. We gave our question asker Julie a call to share the answer…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Julie Menter: \u003c/strong>There is a piece of concrete in our backyard that we’re thinking of taking out. So that’s a good confirmation of like, yeah, let’s take it out, let’s not suffocate this tree and give it more support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Thanks for asking the question Julie. Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you’re a fan of the show, please consider giving us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. It’s a little step that goes a long way to help people find and trust our show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is produced by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Have a fantastic week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n",
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"excerpt": "On this Labor Day weekend, we're sharing an episode from KQED's Bay Curious podcast about what's happening to our state's iconic redwood trees, and how we can support them.",
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"title": "Are the Redwood Trees OK? | KQED",
"description": "On this Labor Day weekend, we're sharing an episode from KQED's Bay Curious podcast about what's happening to our state's iconic redwood trees, and how we can support them.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On this Labor Day weekend, we’re sharing an episode from KQED’s Bay Curious podcast about what’s happening to our state’s iconic redwood trees, and how we can support them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"card card--enclosed grey\">\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC3075408303&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11953504/the-bay-areas-famous-redwood-trees-are-struggling\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">originally published on June 22, 2023.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. California’s redwood trees are iconic. I mean, people travel from far away on long weekends like this one just to stand at their base, look up, and admire their magic. But right now, these amazing trees are struggling. And they could use our help. So, today, KQED’s \u003cem>Bay Curious\u003c/em> – a show that answers listener questions about the Bay Area – dives deep into what’s happening to our redwoods and what we can do to support them. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Julie Menter and her husband moved into a house in Oakland in 2017. There were lots of things they loved about their new home, but especially the three big redwood trees in the backyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Julie Menter: \u003c/strong>It feels like it’s a really big part of the identity to me of the city of Oakland. Like if you look at the hills and the trees…being able to go in nature while being in a city feels really important to me for my mental health and balance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Last year, Julie started to worry about the trees. One of them had lost almost all of its leaves and, despite watering it, it wasn’t bouncing back. It had to come down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Julie Menter: \u003c/strong>It’s so sad. And I think it’s sad both for the tree because, you know, they’re such beautiful trees, they’re so old and majestic. But also scary to be like, “Whoa, this tree is not doing well, the one next to it isn’t, the ones in my neighborhood don’t seem to be doing well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Julie’s noticed not just in her backyard, but all around Oakland, redwood trees don’t look so good. Around her neighborhood… off highways… really all over the East Bay, Julie has noticed the trees looking dry and scraggly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Julie Menter: \u003c/strong>So I’m wondering, is something happening to the redwood trees in the Bay Area? And if so, what is it and is there anything we can do about it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price and this is Bay Curious. Today on the show, we’re tackling California’s state tree: the coast redwood. We’ll dig into why it’s unique to this area, what makes it so special… and also how it’s adapting to challenges like climate change and urbanization. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We sent reporter and redwood tree enthusiast Dana Cronin out to answer Julie’s question about what’s up with the redwoods…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>Sound of walking through a forest \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>There’s a really special feeling I get every time I walk through a redwood forest. My mind goes quiet, the only audible sound coming from the crunch of my footsteps. The temperature is always perfect; even on the hottest day, it’s still cool among the trees. And the smell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin (in scene)\u003c/strong>: It smells so good. There’s just no, like, even just stepping outside of my car in the parking lot, I was like (breathes in, breathes out) It’s just so good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>I’m in the middle of the Roberts Redwood Recreational forest in the Oakland hills… hiking with Deborah Ziertan, who works for Save the Redwoods League. She’s gonna help me teach you all about redwood trees and why they’re unique to our region. Then, later on, we’ll get to the heart of Julie’s question … what’s happening to them? And just a note – for this episode we’ll mostly focus on coastal redwoods, which grow no more than 50 miles from the coastline. Now, Deborah grew up here in Oakland and visited these redwoods frequently as a kid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/strong>I don’t think I fully appreciated the redwoods until I went away to school and then came back as an adult. And this was the place that I would hike to clear my head. And these were the forests that I came to. And so it is a very special place for me here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Deborah has now dedicated her life to these trees. She’s an educator with Save the Redwoods League. Her job is to teach school-aged kids about them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>Sounds of children in a forest \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/strong>Good morning students! \u003cstrong>Students: \u003c/strong>Good morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>I tagged along recently with Deborah, as she guided about thirty fifth graders from a local elementary school through the Reinhardt Redwood\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">Regional Park. The students are spread out across three wooden picnic tables, fidgeting in their seats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/strong>Can I have everyone’s eyes up here? Ok. Will everyone look up and take a look? We are in a little redwood grove. So these are all redwood trees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>After setting a few ground rules… no touching plants… be quiet while others are talking… Miss Deborah — as they call her — launches into the lesson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/strong>Do you know anything about redwood trees at all? Raise your hand if you know anything about redwoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>A student’s hand shoots up.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/strong>Yes. They are really tall. They are. Redwoods are the tallest tree\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">in the whole entire world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Redwood trees can grow more than 300 feet tall. That’s taller than a 30-story skyscraper. And not only are they the tallest tree in the world, they’re also among the biggest. Their trucks can grow nearly 30 feet wide. So, how are they able to get so big?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/strong>So everyone do this with your arms. It’s okay if you kind of lightly touch your neighbors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Deborah holds her arms out straight to the sides, like a scarecrow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/strong>One of the things that makes redwoods so unique is that they actually hold hands with their roots underneath the ground, and that’s how they’re able to grow to be so tall and not fall down is that they help each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Redwood roots are shallow and extend outward instead of down. Their roots extend out almost as far as the tree is tall … and they essentially hold each other up. In addition to being really big… redwoods can also live a very long\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">time… like more than 2,000 years. That means some coastal redwoods today were alive during the Roman Empire. Those old-growth redwoods, which now only account for 5 percent of all redwood trees, can store more carbon than any other forest on the planet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/strong>So we are pretty lucky to have redwood trees here in Oakland. And people travel from all over the world to come and see redwood trees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>Magical sounding music \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Redwood trees also have unique ways of reproducing. They produce seeds, like any other tree, but they can also sprout new trees from their roots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/strong>So often redwood trees, you will find them in circles that we call fairy rings. Because if a parent tree gets hurt or injured, it will send out these baby sprouts into these circles. And it’s kind of like a little family growing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>They’re basically clones of their parents. That’s why you rarely see redwood trees standing alone, and more often see them together in a circle formation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Deborah tells the students we can learn a lot from redwood trees. They exist in communities and rely on each other for support. They have hard exteriors that protect them from things like wildfires, but they’re soft on the inside. Deborah says… they’re not so different from us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>Music ends \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>The earliest redwood trees existed more than 200 million years ago… alongside dinosaurs in the Jurassic period. Their natural range has shrunk a lot in that time… now they mostly stretch up and down the northern California coast… as far north as the Oregon border and down to about Big Sur.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Their distribution tracks with another iconic California phenomenon… coastal fog. So, in the summer months, when there’s a lack of rainfall, redwood trees essentially drink the fog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/strong>It’s almost like a sponge sucking in that water. And then when their needles get full, also like a sponge, any of that excess water will drip to the ground. And it’s almost as if they’re creating their own rain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>And they’ve adapted to this region in other ways, too. They’re highly adapted to fire. Take the 2020 CZU Lightning Complex fire, for example, which burned through most of Big Basin Redwoods near Santa Cruz. Three years later, that forest is green again… and the old-growth redwood trees there are still standing strong.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Redwoods also survived a period of severe logging in the late 18-hundreds when, after the Gold Rush, San Francisco was booming and timber was in high demand. Many trees didn’t survive, though. In fact, most of the trees now living in the Oakland hills are ones that have grown since that period of logging… young, by redwoods standards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Luckily, a movement was underway to protect redwood forests. Save the Redwoods League… where Deborah works… was founded in 1918… and helped to accelerate the preservation of redwood trees across Northern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/strong>People started to see the value in recreation and see the value in these trees not as lumber, but for health and wellness and for preservation purposes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>Music in \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>But now they’re facing new challenges. As our question-asker Julie noticed… Redwood trees in the Bay Area are struggling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Todd Dawson: \u003c/strong>If you walk and you look up now, in most urban areas, I think everybody can pretty much see that, you know, there’s some tops that are dying back. There’s a lot of, you know, brown foliage in the crowns of these trees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>That’s Todd Dawson. He’s an environmental scientist and professor at UC Berkeley and has been studying redwood trees for decades. We met up on a foggy morning at the UC Berkeley campus… home to many unhealthy-looking redwood trees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Todd Dawson: \u003c/strong>See the thinning crowns of the one right out there in the distance? \u003cstrong>Dana Cronin (in scene): \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Todd Dawson: \u003c/strong>There you go. And you just see that over and over and over, repeated in so many places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Todd says trees are suffering all over the Bay Area… even up through Santa Rosa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>And, there are two main reasons for that suffering. Let’s take them one at a time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>Music ends \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>The first reason is urbanization. The Bay Area has gone through a drastic transformation over the last century…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Todd Dawson: \u003c/strong>And with all the concrete and all the pollution that’s associated with urban sprawl, the trees are suffering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>That’s mostly because sidewalks and roadways are impinging on redwoods’ root systems. Remember how their roots extend out really wide?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Todd Dawson: \u003c/strong>Here we are standing ten feet away from a redwood tree on a concrete sidewalk. And we’ve set concrete on top of a big part of the root system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it’s really going to have a very, very negative impact on the ability of that tree to get the water it needs, get the nutrients it needs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>We’re basically suffocating them. And on top of that, we have reason number two… climate change… which is impacting redwood trees in different ways. That fog that redwoods drink in, well, it turns out it’s on the decline. In fact, since the 1950’s it’s declined about 30% during the summertime… when redwoods really need it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>That decline, coupled with periods of severe drought in California, is putting a lot of stress on the trees. Especially Giant Sequoias… another type of redwood that mostly lives in the Sierra Nevada. Thousands of trees there have died due to a lack of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Todd Dawson: \u003c/strong>The water deficit itself didn’t really kill all those trees. It weakened them in a way where other pests and pathogens got in there and basically wiped them out like beetles, fungi, other things like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>In addition to a lack of water… more intense fires are also impacting those trees. Although they have adapted to fire over the centuries… they can’t handle the extreme fires we’re seeing now caused by climate change and bad forest management.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>All in all, Todd says redwood forests are struggling along their perimeters. As the wildland-urban interface stretches further and further into the wild… redwood trees are increasingly exposed to human impacts. They’re losing their buffer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Todd Dawson: \u003c/strong>I think that’s the future, is we’re going to see a patchier world. And that’s really disappointing and concerning for me because, you know, we sit at the heart of that. Humans are really the ones that are in control and are having the negative impacts that we now see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Now, I think we’ve answered most of Julie’s questions… except for one. What can we do about it? Todd has a couple thoughts on that. First, Julie,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">regarding your backyard redwood trees… Todd says you can try watering them…. But…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Todd Dawson: \u003c/strong>The trees require so much water. They also require pretty special microclimates, meaning that they like it cooler. They like these moist, foggy summers like we’re seeing today. You know, And I think you can’t really recreate those conditions as a person. Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately, he says, irrigation is a band-aid solution at best. Because the problems redwood trees are facing now are much more systemic. And that’s how we need to think about solutions, Todd says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>One of those solutions is to protect redwood forests by getting them in the hands of governments and nonprofits… like Deborah’s Save the Redwoods League. Todd says that work is critical to ensuring the trees’ survival here in Northern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>Whimsical music begins \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Todd Dawson: \u003c/strong>The forests are just so special, these big cathedrals with these amazing and gigantic trees that there’s just nothing like that. And I think anybody who’s ever walked through a forest for the first time just is in awe of what a special place and what a special feel it has. And so I’m really concerned about them and I want to keep working with them and I’d love to see those forests protected, you know, in perpetuity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Protecting them now means securing their existence for our kids, grandkids… and maybe even humans two THOUSAND years from now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">**\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Dana Cronin. We gave our question asker Julie a call to share the answer…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Julie Menter: \u003c/strong>There is a piece of concrete in our backyard that we’re thinking of taking out. So that’s a good confirmation of like, yeah, let’s take it out, let’s not suffocate this tree and give it more support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Thanks for asking the question Julie. Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you’re a fan of the show, please consider giving us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. It’s a little step that goes a long way to help people find and trust our show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is produced by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Have a fantastic week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
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"possible": {
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"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"radiolab": {
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},
"rightnowish": {
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"title": "Rightnowish",
"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
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"info": "The Snap Judgment radio show and podcast mixes real stories with killer beats to produce cinematic, dramatic radio. Snap's musical brand of storytelling dares listeners to see the world through the eyes of another. This is storytelling... with a BEAT!! Snap first aired on public radio stations nationwide in July 2010. Today, Snap Judgment airs on over 450 public radio stations and is brought to the airwaves by KQED & PRX.",
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"soldout": {
"id": "soldout",
"title": "SOLD OUT: Rethinking Housing in America",
"tagline": "A new future for housing",
"info": "Sold Out: Rethinking Housing in America",
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