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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Picture this… You move to a cozy home in an idyllic neighborhood: fresh air and birdsong in the morning and gorgeous sunsets at night. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One day, you wake up to find an AI data center is being built right across the street. Your view of trees turns into piles of dirt, the songbird’s trill replaced by the hum of machinery. That’s the reality for many Atlanta metro area residents right now, facing an explosion of AI data center construction. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Morgan is joined by \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">reporters DorMiya Vance and Marlon Hyde from WABE in Atlanta\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Vance and Hyde recently looked into why so many companies are targeting the Atlanta suburbs for their builds. They’ll break down what this means for the infrastructure of local energy companies, how to contextualize this trend within the historical strain placed on predominately Black communities, and what can be done to prepare for “stranded assets” if the bubble bursts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1658905284\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/people/dormiya-vance/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DorMiya Vance\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Southside reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/people/marlon-hyde/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Marlon Hyde\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, business reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/data-centers-are-growing-faster-in-atlanta-than-anywhere-else-in-the-us/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers power our online lives. The business is growing faster in metro Atlanta than anywhere else in the US\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Marlon Hyde, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/south-atlanta-residents-brace-for-major-data-center-development/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">South Atlanta residents brace for major data center development \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— DorMiya Vance, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://arstechnica.com/ai/2026/01/microsoft-vows-to-cover-full-power-costs-for-energy-hungry-ai-data-centers/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Microsoft vows to cover full power costs for energy-hungry AI data centers\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Benj Edwards, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ars Technica\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://capitalbnews.org/data-center-south-carolina-black-community/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After a White Town Rejected a Data Center, Developers Targeted a Black Area\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Mahoney, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Capital B\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://capitalbnews.org/musk-xai-memphis-black-neighborhood-pollution/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Historic Black Community Takes On the World’s Richest Man Over Environmental Racism\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Mahoney, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Capital B\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://mediajustice.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/MediaJustice-Data-Centers-Report.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The People Say No: Resisting Data Centers in the South\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Media Justice\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2026/01/01/data-centers-prince-georges-county/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers spark a ‘fight for the soul’ of this mostly Black Maryland county\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lateshia Beachum, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Washington Post\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/jan/26/georgia-datacenters-ai-ban\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Georgia leads push to ban datacenters used to power America’s AI boom\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Timothy Pratt, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Guardian\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Up until recently, the neighborhood of Planters Ridge in Fayetteville, Georgia was just another cozy suburb outside of Atlanta.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was like real chill, real quiet, like one of those sort of like sleepy neighborhoods.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is DorMiya Vance. She’s a reporter at WABE in Atlanta, and she covers the city’s Southside and the suburbs around it, where Planters Ridge is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nothing too crazy, just nice woodland area, kind of cul-de-sac. But like, as soon as sort of the trees started coming down, the construction started, it just looked, it looked crazy. And like the way her house is set up, she can see all of it through her front window.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After reporting, DorMiya talked to this resident, Kecia Scott. Kecia had bought her house in 2024. She moved into what she thought was a sleepy neighborhood, not too far from the city, but just suburban enough for some peace and quiet. And Kecia spent a lot of time and money renovating her new home—a crisp, modern house with a floor-to-ceiling front window and views of the cozy cul-de-sac surrounded by woodlands. And then, less than a year after she moved in, the construction started.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it was like, torn down trees, like no more green land, just woods and tractors and machines. And then like her neighbors in front of her, they either moved or sold their house because of the construction. However, Miss Kecia, she didn’t. Like, she had just built her house. She wasn’t trying to leave despite, you know, everything that happened and despite her neighborhood being somewhat just infiltrated a little bit. It was just a lot, it was a lot. Last time I was up there, it was not great. She had like a more modern house, so like the whole front window was like just straight, you know, window floor to ceiling. So like she could just walk by and just see everything. She didn’t have any curtains either. It was tough, it tough to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kecia had unknowingly built her house just across the street from a QTS development site. QTS, for Quality Technology Services, a data center company that’s built more than 75 campuses across the country. The campus going up across the streets from Kecia’s house will consist of 16 buildings, spanning over 600 acres. That’s about 450 football fields.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These areas where some of these data centers are being built on the Southside where there is more land are sort of these more suburban residential areas and so obviously if I’m living in a nice neighborhood I don’t want to see construction for a data center right in front of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers like these have been the backbone of the digital world for the last 60 years. Streaming a Netflix show, gossiping on a Discord call, or uploading a photo dump on Instagram, all of that processing takes place in data centers—massive, windowless buildings on sprawling campuses filled with racks of networking equipment and storage systems and humming servers. They need a lot of electricity to run and a lot clean water to keep cool. Data centers aren’t actually new, but then the AI industry exploded. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You might remember this stat from last week’s episode: generating one 5-second AI video is like running a microwave for an hour. It adds up fast, which is why AI companies are scrambling to build more and more data centers to feed this insatiable demand for computing power. As big tech companies prioritize AI, They’re building data centers all over the country, especially in the South. And as we heard from DorMiya, it’s not like these centers are all being built in the middle of nowhere. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Take the Atlanta metro area. It’s known for being a foundational hub of the civil rights movement, for its booming music and film industry, and for its excellent food scene. Now, Atlanta is one of the fastest growing hubs for data center construction. Here, and in other cities throughout the South, developers are eyeing predominantly black suburbs for their new facilities, like in Planters Ridge, where Kecia built her house. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re heading to Atlanta to understand why the data center boom is happening here, what it means for the communities living alongside these facilities, and how residents are pushing back. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into it. You know how this goes, we’re opening a new tab: What’s happening with data centers in Atlanta? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For this deep dive, we teamed up with DorMiya Vance and her colleague Marlon Hyde. They’re two reporters from WABE in Atlanta, and they’ve been working on an ongoing series about the explosion of data centers around the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a lot of money involved, a lot of opportunity, however, my coverage kind of comes into play when it comes to, okay, cool, what are we going to do about the people that live here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DorMiya has been covering the ways that these centers are affecting the Southside communities that live around them. And she says the impacts start well before the facilities ever come online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The concerns around like noise and just like appearance, like, you know, the lights, construction, and having to build these large campuses for months on end.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Construction is more than just an eyesore. It’s loud, disruptive, and in some parts of the state, so close to homes that it’s actually affecting residents’ water supply. About an hour from Atlanta is a massive data center owned by Meta. Residents there have complained about construction sediment and light pollution making their homes nearly unlivable. In a video shared with a news outlet, More Perfect Union, one resident talked about some of the effects she’s seen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[More Perfect Union Video Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reporter Dan Lieberman: So you can see the sediment from the data center. Wow, and that’s just from the water coming out of your faucet.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mansfield Resident Beverly Morris: Yeah, and this is what’s in our pipes. I think eventually that affected our well water.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She told More Perfect Union that she’s had to replace a hot water heater, two washing machines, and a dishwasher because of the construction sediment. Her tap water is undrinkable. And then, once these data centers are built and running, residents face other issues too. A major one, noise. A few years ago, the TV station WUSA measured noise levels around an Amazon data center in Virginia. Here’s what a neighborhood without a data center sounded like [birds and wind sounds] and the neighborhood of Great Oak near a data center [machinery hum sound]. It’s that low-frequency hum that’s just enough so that you can’t quite tune it out, going on 24-7. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Prince William Times is a newspaper that covers a neighborhood of Great Oak, where that data center you just heard is located. They recently spoke to a resident who’s lived next to that noise for the last few years. Here’s what it sounds like in his backyard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Great Oak resident Rob Pixley]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If it were like a highway that never stops. This is continual. It is just inordinately loud. Some people have claimed, well, but ‘it’s just like a conversation’ that never stops, is in your bedroom and you can never turn off. So it’s not, you know, 80 decibels, but it’s constant.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there are the concerns about air quality. Around Elon Musk’s xAI data center in Memphis, residents have complained about respiratory issues and a rotten, sulfurous cabbage smell pervading the neighborhood. Here’s what a few residents told Time Magazine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Boxtown Resident Alexis Humphries]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It smell like gas now, and it didn’t smell like as before Elon came.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Memphis Community Against Pollution President KeShaun Pearson]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I literally can taste it, I can taste the difference now.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To be clear, the reason the xAI data center is causing so many air quality issues is because it’s running its own methane gas turbines. Musk brought them in because the Memphis power grid could only provide a third of xAI’s electricity needs. Now, the Environmental Protection Agency just ruled that Musk may have acted illegally by essentially building an unsanctioned in-house power plant. It’s not the industry standard to circumvent power grid limitations like that. That’s just an Elon Musk thing. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But like we talked about in our last episode, data centers need a lot of energy to function, and the xAI situation shows just how far some companies are willing to go to secure it. In Atlanta, the city’s power grid isn’t equipped to handle the scale of data center development planned in the area. Not yet, at least.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to Science for Georgia, a nonprofit, they estimate that there are about 100 data centers in use and about 42 planned.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s business reporter Marlon Hyde, who works with DorMiya at WABE.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In use and planned data centers are expected to draw about 14,000 megawatts of power from our grid. That’s enough to power about 6.3 million homes, according to the nonprofit, and Georgia has about 4.6 million housing units. So these data centers that are drawing more power than all of us combined in the state can use.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Georgia Public Service Commission before the year ended approved Georgia Power’s new plan, which is about a $16 billion plan to add about another 10,000 megawatts of new power generation to the grid to meet the rising demand for data centers. And especially for the data centers, the power has to be built now. They need new transmitters, they need new substations. So to do all of that, Georgia Power has to go to work right now. They have to start building out the grid right now so that those data centers can come in and it can support more data centers that are in the pipeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That brings us to another criticism of data centers, higher electricity bills for residents. All that power infrastructure Marlon mentioned, someone has to pay for it and critics worry that the costs could be passed on to residents of those areas. And as new data centers come online, all the extra energy demand is likely to raise rates. One study from Carnegie Mellon University found that by 2030, the average electricity bill in the highest demand markets could go up by 25%.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Very recently, people are paying more and more on their bills. We’re seeing higher bills, especially, I’m a resident as well. So if you’re already seeing bills increase and we’re not talking about data centers, now we’re talking about a huge entity that’s gonna continue to draw electricity 24 seven. And I’m expected to pay for it? That’s how a lot of residents feel. And that’s where state legislators are looking in the direction of. How do you hold these data centers accountable, these data center companies accountable for what they’re causing in the community, for what they’re building and how much they are paying? There was a proposal to make data centers pay their fair share on energy costs and it didn’t end up reaching the Senate floor for a vote.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have seen some recent evidence that big tech companies are responding to the pushback. In January, Microsoft actually vowed to foot the electricity costs for its data centers, including the cost of expanding the power grid. They’re calling it the community-first AI infrastructure plan. As part of the plan, the company will turn down any local property tax reductions and invest in AI training for local schools and libraries. Whether Microsoft follows through with the plan is yet to be seen. But the company has already developed new designs to reduce its environmental footprint in Georgia. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last year, Microsoft unveiled its second Fairwater AI Superfactory. This one’s in Atlanta. The facility uses a closed-loop system that doesn’t rely on drinking water for cooling. Microsoft says the system uses almost zero water, reducing the strain on local water supplies. But the Fairwater site is just one of hundreds of data center campuses in the area. Is it enough to make a difference? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Virginia and Texas are leading the data center boom. There’s no comprehensive database of data centers in Georgia. So it’s hard to assess the full scope of this industry. Science for Georgia estimates around a hundred operational data centers. The data center research company Baxtel estimates that there could be almost 200. But what we do know is that Georgia is one of the fastest growing states for data center development. Media company Axios reported that as of the end of last year, the state had plans for 285 more. So what’s driving Georgia’s data center boom? Where these facilities are being built isn’t accidental. It’s shaped by policies, incentives, and longstanding inequalities. We’re opening a whole new tab on that after this break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab: Why are there so many data centers in Georgia? The tech companies that are building these massive complexes around Atlanta aren’t actually based there. We’re getting into this with DorMiya and Marlon again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The data center boom here in Georgia has been largely supported by investments from major tech companies like Amazon Web Services, Meta, Microsoft, and Google. Google actually announced that they were investing $300 million to expand the data center campus and their footprint in Georgia. So we’ve also seen Amazon pledge billions into expanding its data center infrastructure here in George. So there’s a lot of money coming down south.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so here’s why so many tech companies are flocking to the Atlanta metro area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Georgia has land, it has power, and it has connectivity to the internet. On top of that, the state offers incentives. So looking at the liberal leaning economic advocacy group, Good Jobs First, Georgia is estimated to wave close to $300 million in sales and use taxes on data center equipment purchases in 2025. So it’s like, imagine you’re thinking of moving to another state, or, you know, even for example—we both have New York roots—imagine somebody said, ‘hey, if you’re willing to move back to New York, I’m gonna waive your first year of rent.’ You’re gonna move there pretty quickly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, let’s talk about some of these economic incentives at work here. Marlon, you’ve reported on this a lot. What else is at play?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Business speaks volumes. Economic development, they’re willing to give away incentives. You know, one of the first instances of reporting on data centers was Twitter known as X now, Elon Musk’s company, was applying for a $10 million tax abatement in Fulton County, a tax abate not having to pay taxes on sales and use taxes for the equipment that is being bought, mind you they’re buying millions of dollars worth of equipment. Everything we do, even right now as we’re talking, is passing through a data center, and you have to have up-to-date equipment to handle all of this processing power. So, for example, if Twitter wanted to get $200 million worth of the equipment, they would probably ask Fulton County, where their data center is, for some type of tax relief so that they don’t have to pay that money and that they could either save it and pocket it or push it forward in other ways to invest and grow their data center infrastructure. The money is here, the money is flowing and I do not see any of this investment slowing down anytime soon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers bring promises of jobs and economic growth, but Marlon, based on your reporting, are those jobs permanent?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A majority of those jobs are not permanent. When I went to the data center that’s run by Georgia Tech, CODA in Tech Square, they had security. They had people throughout the building. But when you’re looking around, you’re not seeing 200-300 people ready and working on it. There were about 200 to 300 people involved in the actual building of it. But when it comes to the operations, you’re bringing only 20 to 30 jobs in and those are highly skilled jobs majority of the time. So, these companies are not employing hundreds of Georgians just for these data centers. It’s just, that’s not the reality.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also need to talk about where in Georgia these data centers are being built. As DorMiya has reported, the neighborhoods closest to these new developments are predominantly Black suburbs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we’re thinking about like Atlanta or Georgia and the areas that I reported on, you have to think about history. There’s certain areas that have been either redlined or certain barriers that may have been placed that were historically, systemically racist. And so there’s more Black people on the Southside that may have been pushed out. And there’s also more land, which, that land is cheaper. It’s unfortunate that that’s where the cheaper land is and that’s where the population is heavily dense, you know, people of color. From my reporting, like if I just think about the city of South Fulton, where it’s basically, you know almost 100% Black residents, and that is where data centers are coming. It goes back to sort of like, historical route and just land, like where is it located? If you’re heading north, it’s more dense. So yeah, those north Atlanta more white or more wealthy or whatever you want to name it. There’s no space.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing a similar trend around other data centers built in other states too. Developers are flocking to areas where land is cheap and there’s a lot of it. But as environmental justice advocates have pointed out, those areas tend to be Black and Latino communities. The smelly xAI data center in Memphis that residents say is ruining the air quality, that’s in Boxtown, which was founded by formerly enslaved people after the signing of the Emancipation Proclamation. To this day, Boxtown is still a predominantly Black neighborhood. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last year, residents of Jones County, Georgia, a majority white community, rejected the construction of a new data center complex. As Capital B News reported in January, the developers of that project are now trying to build it in a rural Black community in South Carolina. The community there has already been grappling with industrial pollution for generations. And in Prince George’s County in Maryland, another predominantly Black area, residents are pushing back against the development of another new data center. During a community meeting, residents confronted county officials over the history of pollution in the area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Speaker at Community Meeting] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m a three-year cancer survivor. I have been exposed to extreme environmental toxins in the PG County. PG County is the toilet of the state. Stop treating PG County as the toilet of the state. We deserve more. We deserve more.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The data center location trend is part of a larger history of environmental injustice, especially in Georgia. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from short film, Pine Packs a Punch] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The land has always been an important commodity in Georgia. In the 19th century, stately plantation homes spelled a way of life unique in a changing world.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, another news outlet, analyzed years of EPA and census data. They found that communities near toxic waste sites in Georgia had a larger percentage of Black residents and lower property values. And in the city of South Fulton, where many neighborhoods are near industrial facilities, residents have been complaining about chemical odors, soil contamination, and air quality issues. And residents have left out of the loop when it comes to new industrial developments. From the 1950s to the present day. Data centers are adding to the environmental burden there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Really just boils down to like, you know, systemic racism and segregation, like it’s a little bit of a history lesson.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So developers are flocking to these areas that have a lot of land, for cheap, and promising that data center complexes will bring economic benefits to the marginalized communities that already live there. As Marlon has pointed out, there is so much money flowing into the construction of these facilities, all driven by the expectation that the AI industry will continue its exponential growth. But what happens if that investment dries up? Let’s open one last tab. What happens to data centers if the AI bubble pops?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a question that researchers, professors, and data center developers are all asking themselves right now as well. There’s no answer right now. You could be potentially left with a stranded asset.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stranded assets are resources or infrastructure that are no longer valuable. They were built with a purpose, but can no longer be used and are now a financial liability. Think nuclear power plants that have been shut down or coal reserves that can’t be burned. There’s no economic value, but all of that stuff, that investment, it’s just sitting there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Regardless, that’s still gonna be a warehouse full of technology. You can do something with it, potentially, but it’s really up to who owns it, who’s developing it, and what are the plans for the future. There’s no real answer for what if this AI bubble pops and we’re left with, at this point, about 100 data centers that are no longer operable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a nationwide question, but our eyes are on Georgia, where it’s hitting right now. Marlin told me about this one project that’s supposed to be built out by 2037.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Forsyth Technology Campus, it is a $21 billion, let me say that one more time, $21 Billion, over 1,600 acre data center development in Monroe County. And it has the potential to become the single largest economic project in Middle Georgia. There is a desperate need for people that can build data centers because it’s already on the books. It’s planned, it’s ready to go. They need the people to build it. Now, back to your point, there’s not gonna be many permanent jobs that comes out of it afterwards. So we’re gonna have to continue to look at are data centers worth it? Is it worth it to continue building these structures? And for cities, municipalities, is it worth to attract these data centers here? Are we gonna be left with a stranded asset where it’s a warehouse full of servers and cables, but there’s no use for it anymore? What do you do there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s why we’re seeing so many more like moratoriums and pauses because like these counties and cities, they want to genuinely try to understand what is it, like, what are you doing here? Are we going to have to worry about this later? What regulations do we need to put in place so our residents aren’t fearful of what you’re doing? I’m just thinking about residents of South Fulton who kind of have this issue already kinda. You know, where they have abandoned warehouses and different things that have been basically stranded there. And they’re still trying to figure out what do we even do with this from years ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So whose responsibility is it to deal with these data centers if they’re no longer functional?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the end of the day, it’s an investment from these companies and the state that are creating these data centers. So it’s also their responsibility whether or not these data centers continue to operate into the future. And if they’re just gonna be sucking up resources and not giving back anything in terms of economic development, they’re actually worsening our environment. If that all continues to be true, then it goes back on those municipalities and those data center companies to figure out what to do next.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How are local communities responding to all of this construction? Like, are people getting more involved in local government?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">100%. There was recently, and this is around like Marlon’s reporting on DeKalb County and their moratorium, but they had a town hall and it was basically packed. It was overflowing with residents speaking out, basically like, we don’t want this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Residents are going to remain vocal. We are in Georgia, Atlanta, one of the hearts of the civil rights movement. People here feel connected to their local government. People here feel connected to the story and the history of Atlanta as we are a part of it at this current point in time. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DeKalb County voted to extend a moratorium, a pause on data centers being built, constructed to the summer, 2026, June of 2026. And that’s because their phones have been ringing off the hook, according to the County Commissioner. There’ve been non-stop calls, texts, emails about residents not wanting these data centers here. People showing up to community meetings, town halls, any type of forum where they can have their voice heard. People are showing up to let commissioners and the economic leaders know that they don’t want these data centers here. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And we understand that there is a need for data centers and for this infrastructure. But if you’re telling me that we need it, but it has to be built right next door to me and I have to hear it, I have be on the same power grid as it, I don’t want this around me. Go find somewhere else for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there anything that these data center operators or regulators can do to mitigate these risks if the construction of the centers is inevitable?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, they need to have meetings. They need to talk to city officials. The mayor of Palmetto, she had a meeting and like had work sessions with Microsoft because there’s a Microsoft data center in Palmetto, Georgia. She told me that she had sort of hands-on meetings with the folks from Microsoft so they can interact with residents saying like, hey, this is what we’re building, you know, showing them exactly what they’re going to get. And I think that there needs to be more of that, however, the missing piece is the developer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You probably won’t see the developer until like the county commission meeting where they’re trying to approve or rezone, you know, where that’s when they pop up but they need to be in the more like regular meetings, town halls. I think that that’s where they need to sort of meet the people because if you’re just going to come into our neighborhood and not even announce yourself, of course we’re going to feel away about it. Like you just want to come in here and not even introduce yourself like, hmm. So I think they just need to meet the people where they are and being that, hey, you know, AI is rising, the internet is here, we have to have these things. How can we work together so that we are getting both ends of the deal met basically.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you want people to know about the way that big tech is changing Atlanta?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lynn McKee, a professor at Georgia State University, he mentions that for places like Butts County that it’s fighting for more economic development, more tax revenue, data centers could be beneficial. Now the question becomes, what is the overall value? You know, we could see in the short-term, yes, while this warehouse is running, it’s going to be paying whatever share was determined through, you know, whatever deals and arrangements they’re making. But outside of that, what is the city giving up? You know, are we giving up land that could be used for, you know schools, hospitals, homes? Are residents getting burdened with higher energy bills with more instances of environmental pollution, sound noise pollution, things of that nature? Is it gonna be worth it in the long term to put our residents through that? If artificial intelligence is growing in importance, growing in use, you can only expect data centers to grow and for the infrastructure to continue to expand, to support it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Georgia could actually be the first to issue a statewide pause on data center construction. Just last week, at the end of January, Georgia state lawmakers introduced a bill proposing a statewide moratorium on all data center projects until March of 2027. This legislation isn’t a ban on data centers. It’s just buying time. Putting all of these new developments on hold will give local governments and municipalities time to figure out how to regulate data centers. And at the very least, it would give residents a break from all the construction. Okay, now let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick and Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Apple Maker Ala F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, It would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends too, or even your enemies, or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "Picture this… You move to a cozy home in an idyllic neighborhood: fresh air and birdsong in the morning and gorgeous sunsets at night. One day, you wake up to find an AI data center is being built right across the street. Your view of trees turns into piles of dirt, the songbird’s trill replaced by the hum of machinery. That’s the reality for many Atlanta metro area residents right now, facing an explosion of AI data center construction. In this episode, Morgan is joined by reporters DorMiya Vance and Marlon Hyde from WABE in Atlanta. Vance and Hyde recently looked into why so many companies are targeting the Atlanta suburbs for their builds. They’ll break down what this means for the infrastructure of local energy companies, how to contextualize this trend within the historical strain placed on predominately Black communities, and what can be done to prepare for “stranded assets” if the bubble bursts.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Picture this… You move to a cozy home in an idyllic neighborhood: fresh air and birdsong in the morning and gorgeous sunsets at night. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One day, you wake up to find an AI data center is being built right across the street. Your view of trees turns into piles of dirt, the songbird’s trill replaced by the hum of machinery. That’s the reality for many Atlanta metro area residents right now, facing an explosion of AI data center construction. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Morgan is joined by \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">reporters DorMiya Vance and Marlon Hyde from WABE in Atlanta\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Vance and Hyde recently looked into why so many companies are targeting the Atlanta suburbs for their builds. They’ll break down what this means for the infrastructure of local energy companies, how to contextualize this trend within the historical strain placed on predominately Black communities, and what can be done to prepare for “stranded assets” if the bubble bursts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1658905284\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/people/dormiya-vance/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DorMiya Vance\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Southside reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/people/marlon-hyde/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Marlon Hyde\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, business reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/data-centers-are-growing-faster-in-atlanta-than-anywhere-else-in-the-us/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers power our online lives. The business is growing faster in metro Atlanta than anywhere else in the US\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Marlon Hyde, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/south-atlanta-residents-brace-for-major-data-center-development/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">South Atlanta residents brace for major data center development \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— DorMiya Vance, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://arstechnica.com/ai/2026/01/microsoft-vows-to-cover-full-power-costs-for-energy-hungry-ai-data-centers/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Microsoft vows to cover full power costs for energy-hungry AI data centers\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Benj Edwards, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ars Technica\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://capitalbnews.org/data-center-south-carolina-black-community/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After a White Town Rejected a Data Center, Developers Targeted a Black Area\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Mahoney, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Capital B\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://capitalbnews.org/musk-xai-memphis-black-neighborhood-pollution/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Historic Black Community Takes On the World’s Richest Man Over Environmental Racism\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Mahoney, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Capital B\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://mediajustice.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/MediaJustice-Data-Centers-Report.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The People Say No: Resisting Data Centers in the South\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Media Justice\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2026/01/01/data-centers-prince-georges-county/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers spark a ‘fight for the soul’ of this mostly Black Maryland county\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lateshia Beachum, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Washington Post\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/jan/26/georgia-datacenters-ai-ban\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Georgia leads push to ban datacenters used to power America’s AI boom\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Timothy Pratt, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Guardian\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Up until recently, the neighborhood of Planters Ridge in Fayetteville, Georgia was just another cozy suburb outside of Atlanta.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was like real chill, real quiet, like one of those sort of like sleepy neighborhoods.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is DorMiya Vance. She’s a reporter at WABE in Atlanta, and she covers the city’s Southside and the suburbs around it, where Planters Ridge is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nothing too crazy, just nice woodland area, kind of cul-de-sac. But like, as soon as sort of the trees started coming down, the construction started, it just looked, it looked crazy. And like the way her house is set up, she can see all of it through her front window.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After reporting, DorMiya talked to this resident, Kecia Scott. Kecia had bought her house in 2024. She moved into what she thought was a sleepy neighborhood, not too far from the city, but just suburban enough for some peace and quiet. And Kecia spent a lot of time and money renovating her new home—a crisp, modern house with a floor-to-ceiling front window and views of the cozy cul-de-sac surrounded by woodlands. And then, less than a year after she moved in, the construction started.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it was like, torn down trees, like no more green land, just woods and tractors and machines. And then like her neighbors in front of her, they either moved or sold their house because of the construction. However, Miss Kecia, she didn’t. Like, she had just built her house. She wasn’t trying to leave despite, you know, everything that happened and despite her neighborhood being somewhat just infiltrated a little bit. It was just a lot, it was a lot. Last time I was up there, it was not great. She had like a more modern house, so like the whole front window was like just straight, you know, window floor to ceiling. So like she could just walk by and just see everything. She didn’t have any curtains either. It was tough, it tough to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kecia had unknowingly built her house just across the street from a QTS development site. QTS, for Quality Technology Services, a data center company that’s built more than 75 campuses across the country. The campus going up across the streets from Kecia’s house will consist of 16 buildings, spanning over 600 acres. That’s about 450 football fields.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These areas where some of these data centers are being built on the Southside where there is more land are sort of these more suburban residential areas and so obviously if I’m living in a nice neighborhood I don’t want to see construction for a data center right in front of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers like these have been the backbone of the digital world for the last 60 years. Streaming a Netflix show, gossiping on a Discord call, or uploading a photo dump on Instagram, all of that processing takes place in data centers—massive, windowless buildings on sprawling campuses filled with racks of networking equipment and storage systems and humming servers. They need a lot of electricity to run and a lot clean water to keep cool. Data centers aren’t actually new, but then the AI industry exploded. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You might remember this stat from last week’s episode: generating one 5-second AI video is like running a microwave for an hour. It adds up fast, which is why AI companies are scrambling to build more and more data centers to feed this insatiable demand for computing power. As big tech companies prioritize AI, They’re building data centers all over the country, especially in the South. And as we heard from DorMiya, it’s not like these centers are all being built in the middle of nowhere. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Take the Atlanta metro area. It’s known for being a foundational hub of the civil rights movement, for its booming music and film industry, and for its excellent food scene. Now, Atlanta is one of the fastest growing hubs for data center construction. Here, and in other cities throughout the South, developers are eyeing predominantly black suburbs for their new facilities, like in Planters Ridge, where Kecia built her house. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re heading to Atlanta to understand why the data center boom is happening here, what it means for the communities living alongside these facilities, and how residents are pushing back. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into it. You know how this goes, we’re opening a new tab: What’s happening with data centers in Atlanta? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For this deep dive, we teamed up with DorMiya Vance and her colleague Marlon Hyde. They’re two reporters from WABE in Atlanta, and they’ve been working on an ongoing series about the explosion of data centers around the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a lot of money involved, a lot of opportunity, however, my coverage kind of comes into play when it comes to, okay, cool, what are we going to do about the people that live here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DorMiya has been covering the ways that these centers are affecting the Southside communities that live around them. And she says the impacts start well before the facilities ever come online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The concerns around like noise and just like appearance, like, you know, the lights, construction, and having to build these large campuses for months on end.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Construction is more than just an eyesore. It’s loud, disruptive, and in some parts of the state, so close to homes that it’s actually affecting residents’ water supply. About an hour from Atlanta is a massive data center owned by Meta. Residents there have complained about construction sediment and light pollution making their homes nearly unlivable. In a video shared with a news outlet, More Perfect Union, one resident talked about some of the effects she’s seen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[More Perfect Union Video Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reporter Dan Lieberman: So you can see the sediment from the data center. Wow, and that’s just from the water coming out of your faucet.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mansfield Resident Beverly Morris: Yeah, and this is what’s in our pipes. I think eventually that affected our well water.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She told More Perfect Union that she’s had to replace a hot water heater, two washing machines, and a dishwasher because of the construction sediment. Her tap water is undrinkable. And then, once these data centers are built and running, residents face other issues too. A major one, noise. A few years ago, the TV station WUSA measured noise levels around an Amazon data center in Virginia. Here’s what a neighborhood without a data center sounded like [birds and wind sounds] and the neighborhood of Great Oak near a data center [machinery hum sound]. It’s that low-frequency hum that’s just enough so that you can’t quite tune it out, going on 24-7. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Prince William Times is a newspaper that covers a neighborhood of Great Oak, where that data center you just heard is located. They recently spoke to a resident who’s lived next to that noise for the last few years. Here’s what it sounds like in his backyard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Great Oak resident Rob Pixley]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If it were like a highway that never stops. This is continual. It is just inordinately loud. Some people have claimed, well, but ‘it’s just like a conversation’ that never stops, is in your bedroom and you can never turn off. So it’s not, you know, 80 decibels, but it’s constant.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there are the concerns about air quality. Around Elon Musk’s xAI data center in Memphis, residents have complained about respiratory issues and a rotten, sulfurous cabbage smell pervading the neighborhood. Here’s what a few residents told Time Magazine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Boxtown Resident Alexis Humphries]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It smell like gas now, and it didn’t smell like as before Elon came.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Memphis Community Against Pollution President KeShaun Pearson]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I literally can taste it, I can taste the difference now.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To be clear, the reason the xAI data center is causing so many air quality issues is because it’s running its own methane gas turbines. Musk brought them in because the Memphis power grid could only provide a third of xAI’s electricity needs. Now, the Environmental Protection Agency just ruled that Musk may have acted illegally by essentially building an unsanctioned in-house power plant. It’s not the industry standard to circumvent power grid limitations like that. That’s just an Elon Musk thing. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But like we talked about in our last episode, data centers need a lot of energy to function, and the xAI situation shows just how far some companies are willing to go to secure it. In Atlanta, the city’s power grid isn’t equipped to handle the scale of data center development planned in the area. Not yet, at least.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to Science for Georgia, a nonprofit, they estimate that there are about 100 data centers in use and about 42 planned.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s business reporter Marlon Hyde, who works with DorMiya at WABE.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In use and planned data centers are expected to draw about 14,000 megawatts of power from our grid. That’s enough to power about 6.3 million homes, according to the nonprofit, and Georgia has about 4.6 million housing units. So these data centers that are drawing more power than all of us combined in the state can use.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Georgia Public Service Commission before the year ended approved Georgia Power’s new plan, which is about a $16 billion plan to add about another 10,000 megawatts of new power generation to the grid to meet the rising demand for data centers. And especially for the data centers, the power has to be built now. They need new transmitters, they need new substations. So to do all of that, Georgia Power has to go to work right now. They have to start building out the grid right now so that those data centers can come in and it can support more data centers that are in the pipeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That brings us to another criticism of data centers, higher electricity bills for residents. All that power infrastructure Marlon mentioned, someone has to pay for it and critics worry that the costs could be passed on to residents of those areas. And as new data centers come online, all the extra energy demand is likely to raise rates. One study from Carnegie Mellon University found that by 2030, the average electricity bill in the highest demand markets could go up by 25%.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Very recently, people are paying more and more on their bills. We’re seeing higher bills, especially, I’m a resident as well. So if you’re already seeing bills increase and we’re not talking about data centers, now we’re talking about a huge entity that’s gonna continue to draw electricity 24 seven. And I’m expected to pay for it? That’s how a lot of residents feel. And that’s where state legislators are looking in the direction of. How do you hold these data centers accountable, these data center companies accountable for what they’re causing in the community, for what they’re building and how much they are paying? There was a proposal to make data centers pay their fair share on energy costs and it didn’t end up reaching the Senate floor for a vote.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have seen some recent evidence that big tech companies are responding to the pushback. In January, Microsoft actually vowed to foot the electricity costs for its data centers, including the cost of expanding the power grid. They’re calling it the community-first AI infrastructure plan. As part of the plan, the company will turn down any local property tax reductions and invest in AI training for local schools and libraries. Whether Microsoft follows through with the plan is yet to be seen. But the company has already developed new designs to reduce its environmental footprint in Georgia. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last year, Microsoft unveiled its second Fairwater AI Superfactory. This one’s in Atlanta. The facility uses a closed-loop system that doesn’t rely on drinking water for cooling. Microsoft says the system uses almost zero water, reducing the strain on local water supplies. But the Fairwater site is just one of hundreds of data center campuses in the area. Is it enough to make a difference? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Virginia and Texas are leading the data center boom. There’s no comprehensive database of data centers in Georgia. So it’s hard to assess the full scope of this industry. Science for Georgia estimates around a hundred operational data centers. The data center research company Baxtel estimates that there could be almost 200. But what we do know is that Georgia is one of the fastest growing states for data center development. Media company Axios reported that as of the end of last year, the state had plans for 285 more. So what’s driving Georgia’s data center boom? Where these facilities are being built isn’t accidental. It’s shaped by policies, incentives, and longstanding inequalities. We’re opening a whole new tab on that after this break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab: Why are there so many data centers in Georgia? The tech companies that are building these massive complexes around Atlanta aren’t actually based there. We’re getting into this with DorMiya and Marlon again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The data center boom here in Georgia has been largely supported by investments from major tech companies like Amazon Web Services, Meta, Microsoft, and Google. Google actually announced that they were investing $300 million to expand the data center campus and their footprint in Georgia. So we’ve also seen Amazon pledge billions into expanding its data center infrastructure here in George. So there’s a lot of money coming down south.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so here’s why so many tech companies are flocking to the Atlanta metro area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Georgia has land, it has power, and it has connectivity to the internet. On top of that, the state offers incentives. So looking at the liberal leaning economic advocacy group, Good Jobs First, Georgia is estimated to wave close to $300 million in sales and use taxes on data center equipment purchases in 2025. So it’s like, imagine you’re thinking of moving to another state, or, you know, even for example—we both have New York roots—imagine somebody said, ‘hey, if you’re willing to move back to New York, I’m gonna waive your first year of rent.’ You’re gonna move there pretty quickly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, let’s talk about some of these economic incentives at work here. Marlon, you’ve reported on this a lot. What else is at play?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Business speaks volumes. Economic development, they’re willing to give away incentives. You know, one of the first instances of reporting on data centers was Twitter known as X now, Elon Musk’s company, was applying for a $10 million tax abatement in Fulton County, a tax abate not having to pay taxes on sales and use taxes for the equipment that is being bought, mind you they’re buying millions of dollars worth of equipment. Everything we do, even right now as we’re talking, is passing through a data center, and you have to have up-to-date equipment to handle all of this processing power. So, for example, if Twitter wanted to get $200 million worth of the equipment, they would probably ask Fulton County, where their data center is, for some type of tax relief so that they don’t have to pay that money and that they could either save it and pocket it or push it forward in other ways to invest and grow their data center infrastructure. The money is here, the money is flowing and I do not see any of this investment slowing down anytime soon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers bring promises of jobs and economic growth, but Marlon, based on your reporting, are those jobs permanent?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A majority of those jobs are not permanent. When I went to the data center that’s run by Georgia Tech, CODA in Tech Square, they had security. They had people throughout the building. But when you’re looking around, you’re not seeing 200-300 people ready and working on it. There were about 200 to 300 people involved in the actual building of it. But when it comes to the operations, you’re bringing only 20 to 30 jobs in and those are highly skilled jobs majority of the time. So, these companies are not employing hundreds of Georgians just for these data centers. It’s just, that’s not the reality.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also need to talk about where in Georgia these data centers are being built. As DorMiya has reported, the neighborhoods closest to these new developments are predominantly Black suburbs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we’re thinking about like Atlanta or Georgia and the areas that I reported on, you have to think about history. There’s certain areas that have been either redlined or certain barriers that may have been placed that were historically, systemically racist. And so there’s more Black people on the Southside that may have been pushed out. And there’s also more land, which, that land is cheaper. It’s unfortunate that that’s where the cheaper land is and that’s where the population is heavily dense, you know, people of color. From my reporting, like if I just think about the city of South Fulton, where it’s basically, you know almost 100% Black residents, and that is where data centers are coming. It goes back to sort of like, historical route and just land, like where is it located? If you’re heading north, it’s more dense. So yeah, those north Atlanta more white or more wealthy or whatever you want to name it. There’s no space.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing a similar trend around other data centers built in other states too. Developers are flocking to areas where land is cheap and there’s a lot of it. But as environmental justice advocates have pointed out, those areas tend to be Black and Latino communities. The smelly xAI data center in Memphis that residents say is ruining the air quality, that’s in Boxtown, which was founded by formerly enslaved people after the signing of the Emancipation Proclamation. To this day, Boxtown is still a predominantly Black neighborhood. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last year, residents of Jones County, Georgia, a majority white community, rejected the construction of a new data center complex. As Capital B News reported in January, the developers of that project are now trying to build it in a rural Black community in South Carolina. The community there has already been grappling with industrial pollution for generations. And in Prince George’s County in Maryland, another predominantly Black area, residents are pushing back against the development of another new data center. During a community meeting, residents confronted county officials over the history of pollution in the area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Speaker at Community Meeting] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m a three-year cancer survivor. I have been exposed to extreme environmental toxins in the PG County. PG County is the toilet of the state. Stop treating PG County as the toilet of the state. We deserve more. We deserve more.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The data center location trend is part of a larger history of environmental injustice, especially in Georgia. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from short film, Pine Packs a Punch] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The land has always been an important commodity in Georgia. In the 19th century, stately plantation homes spelled a way of life unique in a changing world.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, another news outlet, analyzed years of EPA and census data. They found that communities near toxic waste sites in Georgia had a larger percentage of Black residents and lower property values. And in the city of South Fulton, where many neighborhoods are near industrial facilities, residents have been complaining about chemical odors, soil contamination, and air quality issues. And residents have left out of the loop when it comes to new industrial developments. From the 1950s to the present day. Data centers are adding to the environmental burden there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Really just boils down to like, you know, systemic racism and segregation, like it’s a little bit of a history lesson.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So developers are flocking to these areas that have a lot of land, for cheap, and promising that data center complexes will bring economic benefits to the marginalized communities that already live there. As Marlon has pointed out, there is so much money flowing into the construction of these facilities, all driven by the expectation that the AI industry will continue its exponential growth. But what happens if that investment dries up? Let’s open one last tab. What happens to data centers if the AI bubble pops?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a question that researchers, professors, and data center developers are all asking themselves right now as well. There’s no answer right now. You could be potentially left with a stranded asset.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stranded assets are resources or infrastructure that are no longer valuable. They were built with a purpose, but can no longer be used and are now a financial liability. Think nuclear power plants that have been shut down or coal reserves that can’t be burned. There’s no economic value, but all of that stuff, that investment, it’s just sitting there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Regardless, that’s still gonna be a warehouse full of technology. You can do something with it, potentially, but it’s really up to who owns it, who’s developing it, and what are the plans for the future. There’s no real answer for what if this AI bubble pops and we’re left with, at this point, about 100 data centers that are no longer operable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a nationwide question, but our eyes are on Georgia, where it’s hitting right now. Marlin told me about this one project that’s supposed to be built out by 2037.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Forsyth Technology Campus, it is a $21 billion, let me say that one more time, $21 Billion, over 1,600 acre data center development in Monroe County. And it has the potential to become the single largest economic project in Middle Georgia. There is a desperate need for people that can build data centers because it’s already on the books. It’s planned, it’s ready to go. They need the people to build it. Now, back to your point, there’s not gonna be many permanent jobs that comes out of it afterwards. So we’re gonna have to continue to look at are data centers worth it? Is it worth it to continue building these structures? And for cities, municipalities, is it worth to attract these data centers here? Are we gonna be left with a stranded asset where it’s a warehouse full of servers and cables, but there’s no use for it anymore? What do you do there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s why we’re seeing so many more like moratoriums and pauses because like these counties and cities, they want to genuinely try to understand what is it, like, what are you doing here? Are we going to have to worry about this later? What regulations do we need to put in place so our residents aren’t fearful of what you’re doing? I’m just thinking about residents of South Fulton who kind of have this issue already kinda. You know, where they have abandoned warehouses and different things that have been basically stranded there. And they’re still trying to figure out what do we even do with this from years ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So whose responsibility is it to deal with these data centers if they’re no longer functional?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the end of the day, it’s an investment from these companies and the state that are creating these data centers. So it’s also their responsibility whether or not these data centers continue to operate into the future. And if they’re just gonna be sucking up resources and not giving back anything in terms of economic development, they’re actually worsening our environment. If that all continues to be true, then it goes back on those municipalities and those data center companies to figure out what to do next.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How are local communities responding to all of this construction? Like, are people getting more involved in local government?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">100%. There was recently, and this is around like Marlon’s reporting on DeKalb County and their moratorium, but they had a town hall and it was basically packed. It was overflowing with residents speaking out, basically like, we don’t want this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Residents are going to remain vocal. We are in Georgia, Atlanta, one of the hearts of the civil rights movement. People here feel connected to their local government. People here feel connected to the story and the history of Atlanta as we are a part of it at this current point in time. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DeKalb County voted to extend a moratorium, a pause on data centers being built, constructed to the summer, 2026, June of 2026. And that’s because their phones have been ringing off the hook, according to the County Commissioner. There’ve been non-stop calls, texts, emails about residents not wanting these data centers here. People showing up to community meetings, town halls, any type of forum where they can have their voice heard. People are showing up to let commissioners and the economic leaders know that they don’t want these data centers here. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And we understand that there is a need for data centers and for this infrastructure. But if you’re telling me that we need it, but it has to be built right next door to me and I have to hear it, I have be on the same power grid as it, I don’t want this around me. Go find somewhere else for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there anything that these data center operators or regulators can do to mitigate these risks if the construction of the centers is inevitable?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, they need to have meetings. They need to talk to city officials. The mayor of Palmetto, she had a meeting and like had work sessions with Microsoft because there’s a Microsoft data center in Palmetto, Georgia. She told me that she had sort of hands-on meetings with the folks from Microsoft so they can interact with residents saying like, hey, this is what we’re building, you know, showing them exactly what they’re going to get. And I think that there needs to be more of that, however, the missing piece is the developer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You probably won’t see the developer until like the county commission meeting where they’re trying to approve or rezone, you know, where that’s when they pop up but they need to be in the more like regular meetings, town halls. I think that that’s where they need to sort of meet the people because if you’re just going to come into our neighborhood and not even announce yourself, of course we’re going to feel away about it. Like you just want to come in here and not even introduce yourself like, hmm. So I think they just need to meet the people where they are and being that, hey, you know, AI is rising, the internet is here, we have to have these things. How can we work together so that we are getting both ends of the deal met basically.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you want people to know about the way that big tech is changing Atlanta?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lynn McKee, a professor at Georgia State University, he mentions that for places like Butts County that it’s fighting for more economic development, more tax revenue, data centers could be beneficial. Now the question becomes, what is the overall value? You know, we could see in the short-term, yes, while this warehouse is running, it’s going to be paying whatever share was determined through, you know, whatever deals and arrangements they’re making. But outside of that, what is the city giving up? You know, are we giving up land that could be used for, you know schools, hospitals, homes? Are residents getting burdened with higher energy bills with more instances of environmental pollution, sound noise pollution, things of that nature? Is it gonna be worth it in the long term to put our residents through that? If artificial intelligence is growing in importance, growing in use, you can only expect data centers to grow and for the infrastructure to continue to expand, to support it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Georgia could actually be the first to issue a statewide pause on data center construction. Just last week, at the end of January, Georgia state lawmakers introduced a bill proposing a statewide moratorium on all data center projects until March of 2027. This legislation isn’t a ban on data centers. It’s just buying time. Putting all of these new developments on hold will give local governments and municipalities time to figure out how to regulate data centers. And at the very least, it would give residents a break from all the construction. Okay, now let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick and Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Apple Maker Ala F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, It would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends too, or even your enemies, or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "the-real-cost-of-ai-slop",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How much does your own AI use matter? With all the warnings about AI’s adverse impact on the environment, it can be tough to understand what that means at the individual level. In this episode, Morgan breaks down the hidden costs of generative AI into something more relatable: microwave time. She’s joined by MIT Technology Review reporters Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, who spent months investigating how much energy and water AI systems actually use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they unpack how AI models are trained and which ones are more resource-intensive, what effect the expansion of AI data centers has on local energy grids and just how much electricity it takes when we ask AI to generate text, images and videos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3471727862\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/casey-crownhart/\">Casey Crownhart\u003c/a>, senior climate reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/james-odonnell/\">James O’Donnell\u003c/a>, senior AI reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/05/20/1116327/ai-energy-usage-climate-footprint-big-tech/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We did the math on AI’s energy footprint. Here’s the story you haven’t heard.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://huggingface.co/blog/sasha/ai-energy-score-v2\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Energy Score v2: Refreshed Leaderboard, now with Reasoning ?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>Sasha Luccioni and Boris Gamazaychikov, \u003ci>Hugging Face\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/11/06/1127579/ai-footprint/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop worrying about your AI footprint. Look at the big picture instead.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/report/763080/google-ai-gemini-water-energy-emissions-study\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Google says a typical AI text prompt only uses 5 drops of water — experts say that’s misleading\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Justine Calma, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You may have heard this one warning over and over recently. AI is bad for the environment. It’s using up all our clean water. It’s draining the power grids. It’s polluting our one precious world. But how? Let’s start with a video that fooled me a couple of months ago: bunnies on a trampoline. This video has like 250 million views on TikTok.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bouncing sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a nighttime video, so it’s pretty dark and grainy. It looks like it could be in some suburban backyard. We see six or seven curious rabbits hopping onto the edge of a trampoline. Three of them move bravely toward the center and test a few jumps. Suddenly, all of the bunnies are bouncing up and down. It’s absolutely delightful. I mean, it’s bunnies on a trampoline. The person who posted it said they caught this moment on their ring camera. But my delight was cut short when I realized that one of the bunnies disappeared midair. The entire video was AI generated. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to researchers, one five-second video, like this one, generated using one of top-of-the-line open source AI models, uses about 3.4 million joules. Joules are the standard unit to measure energy. I’ll say that again. One five-second video uses 3.4 million joules to generate. Now, what does that mean to the average person who probably doesn’t measure their day in joules? Well, MIT Technology Review published a report on AI energy use. For that report, Casey Crownhart, who covers the climate, and James O’Donnell, who covers AI, did the math to translate that energy usage into something accessible. Here’s Casey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing we really set out to do with this project was be able to answer that question for people who are using AI in their lives and wanna really understand what the energy footprint looks like. So we looked at a lot of things in our story. We also used distance on an e-bike, light bulbs, electric vehicles, but we found that the microwave was something that most people have experience with and it was units that sort of made sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As part of this project, Casey and James worked with researchers to figure out how much AI generation really costs in microwave time. So that video of the bunnies on the trampoline, let’s say that five second video cost 3.4 million joules. That’s the equivalent of running the microwave for about an hour. You can get 30 bags of popcorn out of that if you’re lucky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The video of the bunnies on the trampoline was just one of dozens of AI-generated videos that I happen to scroll by every day. There are the videos of cats playing the violin, the physically impossible firework shows that my older family members keep sending the group chat, the many totally inappropriate videos of deep fake celebrities, the Facebook slop bait of animals rescuing old people from natural disasters, the AI- generated influencers shilling drop shipped products. Like, I could go on forever. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The reality is that all of this content that’s being generated, seemingly 24-7, comes at a huge cost, energy-wise. Slop is literally draining our resources. And that’s not even accounting for the constant ChatGPT queries or the flood of image generation prompts every hour of every day, and that is only what we see produced by AI. There’s a lot going on in the backend that also takes up a ton of energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In our reporting, we found that, you know, those different use cases that can come with very different energy footprints. If you add it all up, ultimately, it can be significant. It’s probably a relatively small part of your total energy footprint, but it is definitely something that I think people are right to be thinking about in this new age.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Concern is growing about AI’s toll on the environment. And yet, AI companies would have you believe that their products are indispensable and that their impact is manageable. So, what’s the truth? How do we know what to believe? And what, if anything, should we do about it? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically-online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Casey and James spent six months crunching the numbers to give us some real world comparisons for the amount of energy it really takes every time you type up a prompt. This was actually more complicated than it seems. The companies that run the most popular models aren’t the most upfront about the numbers. So the stats that we do have are based on the AI companies that are a bit more open. Casey and James worked with researchers at the University of Michigan’s ML Energy Initiative as well as researchers at Hugging Face’s AI Energy Score Project. Hugging Face is a platform that allows users to share AI tools and data sets. With the help of the researchers, Casey and James were able to get under the hood of a pretty closed off industry, which they’ll break down for us today. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The explosion of AI use comes with many impacts, societal, economic, public health, and so none of them are equally distributed in terms of harm. But today, we’re just focusing on the environmental cost. And speaking of cost, let’s open our first tab. How much energy does a query cost? Let’s start with a little AI 101. When we talk about the environmental impact and energy use, where is all of this computing actually taking place? MIT Technology Review’s James O’Donnell broke it down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The computing is really taking place in buildings called data centers, which there’s about 3000 of them, uh, around the country. There’s even more as you go worldwide and really to visualize this, these are just like monolithic, huge, boring looking buildings that don’t have any windows or anything interesting on the outside and inside are just racks and racks of computers and chips and servers, crunching a lot of numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What we call artificial intelligence has existed in some form since the 1950s. But the technology that we call AI today is very different. There are many types that we now lump together under the AI umbrella, which all have different energy requirements. But for this deep dive, when we say AI, we’re referring to generative AI, specifically, the models that produce content based on a human entering a prompt. They include large language models, or LLMs, like ChatGPT and Claude and Gemini. When it comes to generative AI models, there are typically two different processes involved: training and inference. These also factor into the total energy use.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is what you do when you want to build an AI model from scratch, from nothing and you, you have a large language model that is only going to be as smart as the data that you feed it. So training is basically the phase where you’re taking massive amounts of data. Normally this is a lot of language and text, which could be everything from the internet, could be every book that’s ever been written, uh, regardless of if these companies have the legal right to access that data, but they’re putting a bunch of data into this AI model. And the AI model is basically learning how to create better and better guesses of the text that it outputs. So it’s learning to generate texts, to string words together, to string sentences together and paragraphs together that sound realistic and accurate. And it’s doing that by noticing patterns of what words go together in this large data set.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is sort of the number crunching of feeding all of that data into an AI model and at the end, it spits out this model that has learned millions and millions of parameters, we call them, basically like knobs on an AI model that help the model understand the connections between different words. And at the end, you have this model that can generate text.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A lot of electricity is used in the process of training that AI model. Years ago, that was like, when I say years ago, maybe two or three years ago that was the main concern of how much energy AI was using was really in that training phase. And what Casey and I discovered in our reporting is that that has changed really significantly. So most AI companies today are, you know, they’re planning for their energy budgets to be spent more on inference.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, what is inference?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Inference is every time you ask an AI model something, so every time you ask a question or have it generate an image or a video, anytime it actually does the thing of generating something that’s called inference. And so the individual amounts of energy that are used at the time of inference can be quite small or, or sort of big. Um, but it’s really the summation of all of that, that gives you kind of the energy footprint of a given AI model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The generated output also changes the energy usage. The more complicated the prompt, the more energy it uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in our reporting we looked at text, images, and video. So kind of really broadly, and again, it can still vary, even within kind of a text query, depending on how complicated your ask is. So are you asking something to rewrite the whole works of Shakespeare, but like, in pirate speak, or are you just asking for a suggestion for a recipe? The open source models that we looked at, we found that the smallest models, if you were kind of asking a sort of standard query, might use about 114 joules of electricity. That’s equivalent to roughly a 10th of a second in a microwave, so a very, very small amount of electricity. A larger text model and one of the largest text models we looked at would use a lot more, so more like 6,700 joules, that’s about eight seconds in a microwave. So again, fairly small numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, the bigger the model, the more energy it uses. AI models have parameters. Like James said earlier, these are basically the adjustable knobs that allow models to make a prediction. With more parameters, AI models are more likely to generate a better response and are better equipped to handle complex requests. So, asking a chat bot, “What year did Shakespeare write Hamlet?” Is generally a less complex request than, say, “Translate all of Hamlet into pirate speak.” The smallest model that Casey and James tested had eight billion parameters. The largest had 405 billion parameters. OpenAI is pretty hush-hush about their infrastructure, but some estimate that the company’s latest model, GPT-5, is somewhere up in the trillions. So, as models get bigger, they need to run on more chips, which needs more energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What was really surprising and what I think really stood out in our reporting was that videos, based on the models that we were looking at, used significantly more energy, so thousands of times more energy than some of the smallest text models. So one model that we looked at used about 3.4 million joules of energy. That’s about an hour of microwave time. So there’s a really wide range here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s another factor: reasoning models. Investors are all over these right now. Reasoning models are marketed as literal thinking machines that are able to break down complex problems into logical steps instead of just predicting the next answer based on the patterns it recognizes. They’re advertised to think like a human would and supposedly will become more energy efficient the smarter the model gets. One of the researchers that Casey and James worked with at Hugging Tree put this to the test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, a lot of people are excited about this idea of reasoning models. And so when this researcher studied these and figured out whether or not they’re energy efficient, she found that a lot these reasoning models can actually use 30 times more energy than a non-reasoning model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there’s the water usage. AI datacenters use massive quantities of water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something that has been a conversation and there’s still I think, to some extent, a lot of uncertainty about. But basically, data centers use water directly for a lot cooling systems. A lot of data centers are cooled with what’s called evaporative cooling. So, you know, water evaporates to cool down the equipment. There’s also sort of indirect water use, which is a little trickier to calculate, but there’s also water that’s used in power plants. And so if you kind of think, okay, the power plant is needed to power the data center. So the water used in the power plant, you can kind of attribute to AI as well. Oftentimes the water that is required in a data center has to be very, very high quality, very pure water because you’re dealing with very sensitive equipment. And so there is this big conversation about water. Google released estimates about its water use per query as well, but kind of to sum it up, there is a pretty major water requirement and we’re starting to see that as, again, data centers are being built in places, including those that are very water stressed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s what we do know about AI and energy consumption. This is the usage that can be measured, even if companies aren’t the most upfront about their numbers. But what about everything else? We’re opening a new tab, after this break. Welcome back, we’re opening a new tab. What AI energy use isn’t being measured? So we’ve talked about the front and most visible uses, energy usages, generating videos, generating lists, translating Shakespeare’s text into pirate speak, right. What’s happening in the background that’s also using up energy? Like, how many times do you have to run a microwave for those processes?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think it’s hard to know. Like since we’ve done this reporting, AI is being put into many parts of our online life and we don’t always have a lot of choice or visibility into how AI is being using used. So for example, Google famously, uh, went from just presenting you search results to then summarizing those search results with AI overviews. So now for the most part, people aren’t looking very far down that search page, they’re actually just relying on the AI overview. We would love to know how much energy is used by Google every time it creates an AI overview and the percentage of those searches that it uses overviews for, we weren’t able to get that information. Uh, Google wouldn’t share it with us. And so, you know, AI is being put into all these different parts of our online life. And I think we’ll look back on this as the sort of like simplest calculation of, of being able to estimate, you now, how much is used when you try and make a recipe or generate an image or something. But the truth is, as you point out, AI is sort of being put into everything and it’s going to be harder and harder to sort of track the footprint as that goes on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you elaborate on why this topic appears to be so divisive and so confusing for so many people having to confront their energy usage through AI?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. I have thoughts, but I’m sure Casey does too. So, you know, it’s not like asking ChatGPT a question is like, you know, polluting the earth as much as driving a 3000 mile road trip, right? Like ,we’re talking about small, relatively small numbers here, but it gets a lot of attention, I think, because public opinion for AI right now is just so abysmally low because so many people are skeptical of whether or not it’s really benefiting all of us. And I think the energy footprint is just kind of this glaring issue for people that say, like, what are we getting out of this technology, especially if it’s sort of draining us of resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think part of the interesting phenomenon is that AI has really like crashed onto the scene for the general public. It’s this whole kind of new thing that we’re all having to kind of reckon with, like what is this doing to our brains? What is this going to our grids? It’s I think it’s natural to question this like entirely new thing. Another thing that I think is really interesting is that, as James mentioned, this is becoming less so, but to this point, it’s kind of discreet and countable in a way that a lot of our other activity, especially online activity, isn’t. You can go out on and, you know, how many times am I messaging this thing? So I think that kind of has lended itself to the natural kind of like, well, how much does each one of these queries, what does that mean for energy?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google recently released data on the energy footprint of its AI model, Gemini, a couple of months after you guys put out your report. What did you make of that? Like, was it helpful? Can we trust those numbers? I guess wouldn’t they be incentivized to portray themselves as very energy friendly?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it would have been nice to get these when we were reporting, but as James mentioned earlier, these companies know better than anybody what their energy footprint is. So I think there’s such value in getting some of this data. And Google had a really good technical report that went through kind of in-depth, you know, here’s where the energy is coming from this much from, you know the AI chips, this much from other processes. But I think it’s really significant what wasn’t included in that report. And what wasn’t included in the report is any sort of information about, you know, the total queries that its Gemini model gets in a day. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google is able to point to this number and say, hey, look, this is such a small number. It’s in line with what we found for, kind of, our median text model. You know, something like a second or so in the microwave per query. But that’s, you know, for what Google says is an average or median query. You know, it’s not kind of giving us the full range, including, you now, different kind of queries that we know would take up a lot more energy. It doesn’t include image and video, which we know are more energy intensive. And ultimately we’re not able to, without that total number of, you not, how many times is this model being queried and giving responses a day? How many users, how many daily users? We don’t know the total footprint. We can only say, here’s this little number.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the energy grid. The type of energy matters, right? Like there are a lot of discussion on renewables versus fossil fuels. What might impact where that energy comes from when it comes to building data centers and maintaining them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is something that I really focused on in our reporting because as I think I put it in the piece, if we just had data centers that were hooked up to a bunch of solar panels and they ran when the sun is shining, oh, what a lovely world it would be, and I would be a lot less worried about all this. But the reality is that today, grids around the world are largely reliant on fossil fuels. So burning things like, you know, natural gas and coal to run the grid, keep the lights on. And one concern is what the grid will look like as energy demand from AI continues to rise.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today, we see that data centers are really concentrated on the East Coast, in places like Virginia, tends to be very natural gas heavy, reliant on coal. There are data centers that are on grids that have a lot more solar and hydropower and wind, and that means that the relative climate impact of data centers in those places can be lower than in the more fossil fuel-heavy places.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think there’s a concern that as a lot, a lot of data center come online really quickly and need more electricity added to the grid in order to run, what is being added to grid in in order support those? Right now, the overwhelming answer is natural gas. And so that means that a lot of these new data centers will come with a pretty significant climate footprint attached.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We may not know the exact amount of energy that the AI industry is actually using, but what we do know is that it’s a lot, and it is putting a strain on our already limited resources. Each individual query does cost something, and it adds up. Plus, there’s everything running in the background that we can’t measure. So what is each individual person responsible for? I mean, should we be worried about the future? Is there anything that we could actually do? Time for a new tab: does my AI footprint matter in the big picture? Luckily, Casey dove into this exact topic last year. She believes that policing individual AI usage isn’t as helpful in the grand scheme of things. Here’s why we should shift our focus, instead of putting the onus on each person to change their own behavior.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As we went through this reporting, I got a lot of questions and I had a lot of questions myself about, you know, what does this mean for me and my personal choices about AI? And again, kind of as somebody who spent a lot of time reporting on climate change, it really reminded me of the conversation around climate footprint. You know, what is my climate footprint? What should I personally do differently to help, kind of, address climate change? And what I’ve come to kind of understand through my reporting and believe is that climate change is this massive problem that goes beyond any single one of us. And there’s a really significant limit to how much our individual choices can address a global problem that is very systemic. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can compost all you want, but if only gas vehicles are available to you and that’s the only way you can get around in your community, there’s only so much you can do. And we now know that some fossil fuel funded PR campaigns helped to popularize this idea of carbon footprint to kind of shift the focus on to individuals and away from these big, powerful companies. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think that I see some parallels with AI today, you know, this attempt to kind of shift focus on, you now, well, are you using ChatGPT too many times in a day rather than what is the global impact and like, why aren’t these companies being more transparent about what the energy use of AI is on their scale. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think ultimately, you know, there are limits to this. Like if you’re making a million AI slop videos every single day, I think that’s an individual action that you could probably safely make a choice that would be better for energy use. But overall, I think we should more be using our limited time and energy in the day to push for more transparency. You know, ask for regulations around AI and what’s powering it, and just generally not be so hard on ourselves because we operate in this system where it’s increasingly hard to get away from AI. As we’ve talked about, even if you don’t choose to go onto, you know chatgpt.com, you’re often, you’re part of this AI ecosystem. So we need to be talking about what that overall system looks like and how we can change it rather than the limited power of individuals.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the biggest unanswered questions every time a data center is open is actually like, what’s the energy source going into that? And is it going to be, you know, powered with renewable sources or not? Is it just going to run 24 seven on natural gas? And so sometimes if you hyper focus on this question of your own individual footprint, it can kind of make you forget that actually there are decisions still to be made every time the data center goes up that will arguably have a bigger impact on the sort of net footprint, net emissions of it all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do we know about where the AI industry wants to take us in the future, near future, like three years from now? What do they need energy-wise or water-wise to get us there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI companies are planning for some pretty, uh, unprecedented levels of investment in, in data centers and, you know, to power all of those unprecedented levels of investment in power plants and nuclear energy and things like that. Um, I think where they want to go, uh, is to build AI models that are bigger first of all. To do that you need more and more chips and more and more power, and so there’s an incentive to just amass all of this energy and electricity. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then on the product side of it, I think these AI companies imagine that the world of AI in five years will not just be large language models that people type to and get an answer back, but that image generation and video generation and real time voice chats are kind of a part of our everyday lives. And so they’re planning for a lot more demand as well. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so you could think of this project from OpenAI and others called Stargate, which is basically a half a trillion dollars of investment into data centers that they want to pop up around the country. And I think the reason why they’re seeing success politically from this is that AI companies have framed AI as a question of national security, right? If the US wants to win this AI race against China, then the country that has the most energy is the country will create the best AI and the sort of you know, impedance to all of that is access to, to energy. And that’s why these companies have sort of made it their top priority.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and just to add to that, I mean, I think these big dreams about, you know, how big AI could get, it’s going to be a lot of electricity. So as of 2024, data centers used over 400 terawatt hours of electricity, about 1.5% of all electricity used around the world. By 2030, the International Energy Agency says that that could more than double reaching 945 terawatts. Sorry to use inscrutable units, but that’s about 3% of global electricity consumption.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is that in microwave hours? [\u003cem>Laughter\u003c/em>]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A whole lot of microwaves, so many microwaves. So I think that basically we’re seeing really significant, really fast shifts and fast growth in electricity, including in places like the US that have seen very flat electricity demand for over a decade. And so I think that this is all going to add up to really complicated effects and really complicated, kind of, effects for local communities where these data centers and where these power plants are gonna be used.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something I didn’t totally get before I learned more from Casey and before we started reporting on this. So data centers were doing a lot of stuff in the early 2000s, like, this is Netflix, social media, like, all sorts of streaming, but electricity going to those data centers stayed pretty flat, and it wasn’t until AI that you actually started to see a huge jump in the amount of electricity that data centers required.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most AI companies, or AI hype guys who are investing very heavily in AI companies will say something like, oh, AI can solve problems like climate change, so the energy usage is worth it. How much do you guys buy into that argument? Llike, does it hold any water?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s so much potential for all kinds of AI, again, beyond chatbots, in all kinds problems that are related to climate change, from materials discovery, finding new materials that could make better batteries or help us capture carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, superconductors that can move electricity around super efficiently. There’s also ways that AI could be used to help the grid run more efficiently. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s really interesting research in all of these areas that I’m following very closely. But at this point, it’s all early stage. It’s all research. And I think there’s great potential for AI to be a positive force for the climate. But I think it’s absolutely irresponsible for us to punt on all of this concerns about AI’s current energy use because of some potential. Because there’s always the chance that this doesn’t work. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think in any case, the progress could be significant, but it’s not gonna be a silver bullet. So I think we need to reckon very seriously with the current energy problems that we’re seeing now, rather than try to make some future promise that may never come true, build all this infrastructure that will be online for decades to come and could change our climate forever. Just doesn’t make sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you think the most misunderstood part of this whole energy AI use conversation is?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that there’s kind of a nuanced picture of just how important AI energy use is in context. So it is true that AI is probably a small part of your individual energy picture. And in fact, in terms of like the global energy use picture, it’s 3% in 2030. That doesn’t seem like very much. But that kind of change over such a short amount of time is going to be very significant for especially local grids where this is taking place. It will have significant impacts for climate change. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of build out will definitely not go unnoticed by the climate, but I think the biggest impacts here will be faced by local communities seeing data centers going up, local communities with new fossil fuel infrastructure going up. And so all at once, this is a small fraction of individual and even global energy use, and a very, very significant trend for the energy system of the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Looking toward the future is important, but the AI industry is changing residential communities right now in real time. The data center room promises to bring jobs and economic growth, but are AI companies following through on that? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Next week, we’re taking our deep dive to one of the fastest growing hubs for AI data centers, Atlanta. But for now, let’s close all of these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was edited by Chris Hambrick and produced by Chris Egusa, who’s our senior editor and also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager a\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">nd Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Apple Maker Ala F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nOkay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but… if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends too, or even your enemies, or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "How much does your own AI use matter? With all the warnings about AI’s adverse impact on the environment, it can be tough to understand what that means at the individual level. In this episode, Morgan breaks down the hidden costs of generative AI into something more relatable: microwave time. She’s joined by MIT Technology Review reporters Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, who spent months investigating how much energy and water AI systems actually use. Together, they unpack how AI models are trained and which ones are more resource-intensive, what effect the expansion of AI data centers has on local energy grids and just how much electricity it takes when we ask AI to generate text, images and videos.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How much does your own AI use matter? With all the warnings about AI’s adverse impact on the environment, it can be tough to understand what that means at the individual level. In this episode, Morgan breaks down the hidden costs of generative AI into something more relatable: microwave time. She’s joined by MIT Technology Review reporters Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, who spent months investigating how much energy and water AI systems actually use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they unpack how AI models are trained and which ones are more resource-intensive, what effect the expansion of AI data centers has on local energy grids and just how much electricity it takes when we ask AI to generate text, images and videos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3471727862\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/casey-crownhart/\">Casey Crownhart\u003c/a>, senior climate reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/james-odonnell/\">James O’Donnell\u003c/a>, senior AI reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/05/20/1116327/ai-energy-usage-climate-footprint-big-tech/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We did the math on AI’s energy footprint. Here’s the story you haven’t heard.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://huggingface.co/blog/sasha/ai-energy-score-v2\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Energy Score v2: Refreshed Leaderboard, now with Reasoning ?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>Sasha Luccioni and Boris Gamazaychikov, \u003ci>Hugging Face\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/11/06/1127579/ai-footprint/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop worrying about your AI footprint. Look at the big picture instead.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/report/763080/google-ai-gemini-water-energy-emissions-study\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Google says a typical AI text prompt only uses 5 drops of water — experts say that’s misleading\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Justine Calma, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You may have heard this one warning over and over recently. AI is bad for the environment. It’s using up all our clean water. It’s draining the power grids. It’s polluting our one precious world. But how? Let’s start with a video that fooled me a couple of months ago: bunnies on a trampoline. This video has like 250 million views on TikTok.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bouncing sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a nighttime video, so it’s pretty dark and grainy. It looks like it could be in some suburban backyard. We see six or seven curious rabbits hopping onto the edge of a trampoline. Three of them move bravely toward the center and test a few jumps. Suddenly, all of the bunnies are bouncing up and down. It’s absolutely delightful. I mean, it’s bunnies on a trampoline. The person who posted it said they caught this moment on their ring camera. But my delight was cut short when I realized that one of the bunnies disappeared midair. The entire video was AI generated. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to researchers, one five-second video, like this one, generated using one of top-of-the-line open source AI models, uses about 3.4 million joules. Joules are the standard unit to measure energy. I’ll say that again. One five-second video uses 3.4 million joules to generate. Now, what does that mean to the average person who probably doesn’t measure their day in joules? Well, MIT Technology Review published a report on AI energy use. For that report, Casey Crownhart, who covers the climate, and James O’Donnell, who covers AI, did the math to translate that energy usage into something accessible. Here’s Casey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing we really set out to do with this project was be able to answer that question for people who are using AI in their lives and wanna really understand what the energy footprint looks like. So we looked at a lot of things in our story. We also used distance on an e-bike, light bulbs, electric vehicles, but we found that the microwave was something that most people have experience with and it was units that sort of made sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As part of this project, Casey and James worked with researchers to figure out how much AI generation really costs in microwave time. So that video of the bunnies on the trampoline, let’s say that five second video cost 3.4 million joules. That’s the equivalent of running the microwave for about an hour. You can get 30 bags of popcorn out of that if you’re lucky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The video of the bunnies on the trampoline was just one of dozens of AI-generated videos that I happen to scroll by every day. There are the videos of cats playing the violin, the physically impossible firework shows that my older family members keep sending the group chat, the many totally inappropriate videos of deep fake celebrities, the Facebook slop bait of animals rescuing old people from natural disasters, the AI- generated influencers shilling drop shipped products. Like, I could go on forever. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The reality is that all of this content that’s being generated, seemingly 24-7, comes at a huge cost, energy-wise. Slop is literally draining our resources. And that’s not even accounting for the constant ChatGPT queries or the flood of image generation prompts every hour of every day, and that is only what we see produced by AI. There’s a lot going on in the backend that also takes up a ton of energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In our reporting, we found that, you know, those different use cases that can come with very different energy footprints. If you add it all up, ultimately, it can be significant. It’s probably a relatively small part of your total energy footprint, but it is definitely something that I think people are right to be thinking about in this new age.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Concern is growing about AI’s toll on the environment. And yet, AI companies would have you believe that their products are indispensable and that their impact is manageable. So, what’s the truth? How do we know what to believe? And what, if anything, should we do about it? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically-online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Casey and James spent six months crunching the numbers to give us some real world comparisons for the amount of energy it really takes every time you type up a prompt. This was actually more complicated than it seems. The companies that run the most popular models aren’t the most upfront about the numbers. So the stats that we do have are based on the AI companies that are a bit more open. Casey and James worked with researchers at the University of Michigan’s ML Energy Initiative as well as researchers at Hugging Face’s AI Energy Score Project. Hugging Face is a platform that allows users to share AI tools and data sets. With the help of the researchers, Casey and James were able to get under the hood of a pretty closed off industry, which they’ll break down for us today. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The explosion of AI use comes with many impacts, societal, economic, public health, and so none of them are equally distributed in terms of harm. But today, we’re just focusing on the environmental cost. And speaking of cost, let’s open our first tab. How much energy does a query cost? Let’s start with a little AI 101. When we talk about the environmental impact and energy use, where is all of this computing actually taking place? MIT Technology Review’s James O’Donnell broke it down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The computing is really taking place in buildings called data centers, which there’s about 3000 of them, uh, around the country. There’s even more as you go worldwide and really to visualize this, these are just like monolithic, huge, boring looking buildings that don’t have any windows or anything interesting on the outside and inside are just racks and racks of computers and chips and servers, crunching a lot of numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What we call artificial intelligence has existed in some form since the 1950s. But the technology that we call AI today is very different. There are many types that we now lump together under the AI umbrella, which all have different energy requirements. But for this deep dive, when we say AI, we’re referring to generative AI, specifically, the models that produce content based on a human entering a prompt. They include large language models, or LLMs, like ChatGPT and Claude and Gemini. When it comes to generative AI models, there are typically two different processes involved: training and inference. These also factor into the total energy use.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is what you do when you want to build an AI model from scratch, from nothing and you, you have a large language model that is only going to be as smart as the data that you feed it. So training is basically the phase where you’re taking massive amounts of data. Normally this is a lot of language and text, which could be everything from the internet, could be every book that’s ever been written, uh, regardless of if these companies have the legal right to access that data, but they’re putting a bunch of data into this AI model. And the AI model is basically learning how to create better and better guesses of the text that it outputs. So it’s learning to generate texts, to string words together, to string sentences together and paragraphs together that sound realistic and accurate. And it’s doing that by noticing patterns of what words go together in this large data set.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is sort of the number crunching of feeding all of that data into an AI model and at the end, it spits out this model that has learned millions and millions of parameters, we call them, basically like knobs on an AI model that help the model understand the connections between different words. And at the end, you have this model that can generate text.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A lot of electricity is used in the process of training that AI model. Years ago, that was like, when I say years ago, maybe two or three years ago that was the main concern of how much energy AI was using was really in that training phase. And what Casey and I discovered in our reporting is that that has changed really significantly. So most AI companies today are, you know, they’re planning for their energy budgets to be spent more on inference.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, what is inference?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Inference is every time you ask an AI model something, so every time you ask a question or have it generate an image or a video, anytime it actually does the thing of generating something that’s called inference. And so the individual amounts of energy that are used at the time of inference can be quite small or, or sort of big. Um, but it’s really the summation of all of that, that gives you kind of the energy footprint of a given AI model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The generated output also changes the energy usage. The more complicated the prompt, the more energy it uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in our reporting we looked at text, images, and video. So kind of really broadly, and again, it can still vary, even within kind of a text query, depending on how complicated your ask is. So are you asking something to rewrite the whole works of Shakespeare, but like, in pirate speak, or are you just asking for a suggestion for a recipe? The open source models that we looked at, we found that the smallest models, if you were kind of asking a sort of standard query, might use about 114 joules of electricity. That’s equivalent to roughly a 10th of a second in a microwave, so a very, very small amount of electricity. A larger text model and one of the largest text models we looked at would use a lot more, so more like 6,700 joules, that’s about eight seconds in a microwave. So again, fairly small numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, the bigger the model, the more energy it uses. AI models have parameters. Like James said earlier, these are basically the adjustable knobs that allow models to make a prediction. With more parameters, AI models are more likely to generate a better response and are better equipped to handle complex requests. So, asking a chat bot, “What year did Shakespeare write Hamlet?” Is generally a less complex request than, say, “Translate all of Hamlet into pirate speak.” The smallest model that Casey and James tested had eight billion parameters. The largest had 405 billion parameters. OpenAI is pretty hush-hush about their infrastructure, but some estimate that the company’s latest model, GPT-5, is somewhere up in the trillions. So, as models get bigger, they need to run on more chips, which needs more energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What was really surprising and what I think really stood out in our reporting was that videos, based on the models that we were looking at, used significantly more energy, so thousands of times more energy than some of the smallest text models. So one model that we looked at used about 3.4 million joules of energy. That’s about an hour of microwave time. So there’s a really wide range here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s another factor: reasoning models. Investors are all over these right now. Reasoning models are marketed as literal thinking machines that are able to break down complex problems into logical steps instead of just predicting the next answer based on the patterns it recognizes. They’re advertised to think like a human would and supposedly will become more energy efficient the smarter the model gets. One of the researchers that Casey and James worked with at Hugging Tree put this to the test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, a lot of people are excited about this idea of reasoning models. And so when this researcher studied these and figured out whether or not they’re energy efficient, she found that a lot these reasoning models can actually use 30 times more energy than a non-reasoning model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there’s the water usage. AI datacenters use massive quantities of water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something that has been a conversation and there’s still I think, to some extent, a lot of uncertainty about. But basically, data centers use water directly for a lot cooling systems. A lot of data centers are cooled with what’s called evaporative cooling. So, you know, water evaporates to cool down the equipment. There’s also sort of indirect water use, which is a little trickier to calculate, but there’s also water that’s used in power plants. And so if you kind of think, okay, the power plant is needed to power the data center. So the water used in the power plant, you can kind of attribute to AI as well. Oftentimes the water that is required in a data center has to be very, very high quality, very pure water because you’re dealing with very sensitive equipment. And so there is this big conversation about water. Google released estimates about its water use per query as well, but kind of to sum it up, there is a pretty major water requirement and we’re starting to see that as, again, data centers are being built in places, including those that are very water stressed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s what we do know about AI and energy consumption. This is the usage that can be measured, even if companies aren’t the most upfront about their numbers. But what about everything else? We’re opening a new tab, after this break. Welcome back, we’re opening a new tab. What AI energy use isn’t being measured? So we’ve talked about the front and most visible uses, energy usages, generating videos, generating lists, translating Shakespeare’s text into pirate speak, right. What’s happening in the background that’s also using up energy? Like, how many times do you have to run a microwave for those processes?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think it’s hard to know. Like since we’ve done this reporting, AI is being put into many parts of our online life and we don’t always have a lot of choice or visibility into how AI is being using used. So for example, Google famously, uh, went from just presenting you search results to then summarizing those search results with AI overviews. So now for the most part, people aren’t looking very far down that search page, they’re actually just relying on the AI overview. We would love to know how much energy is used by Google every time it creates an AI overview and the percentage of those searches that it uses overviews for, we weren’t able to get that information. Uh, Google wouldn’t share it with us. And so, you know, AI is being put into all these different parts of our online life. And I think we’ll look back on this as the sort of like simplest calculation of, of being able to estimate, you now, how much is used when you try and make a recipe or generate an image or something. But the truth is, as you point out, AI is sort of being put into everything and it’s going to be harder and harder to sort of track the footprint as that goes on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you elaborate on why this topic appears to be so divisive and so confusing for so many people having to confront their energy usage through AI?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. I have thoughts, but I’m sure Casey does too. So, you know, it’s not like asking ChatGPT a question is like, you know, polluting the earth as much as driving a 3000 mile road trip, right? Like ,we’re talking about small, relatively small numbers here, but it gets a lot of attention, I think, because public opinion for AI right now is just so abysmally low because so many people are skeptical of whether or not it’s really benefiting all of us. And I think the energy footprint is just kind of this glaring issue for people that say, like, what are we getting out of this technology, especially if it’s sort of draining us of resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think part of the interesting phenomenon is that AI has really like crashed onto the scene for the general public. It’s this whole kind of new thing that we’re all having to kind of reckon with, like what is this doing to our brains? What is this going to our grids? It’s I think it’s natural to question this like entirely new thing. Another thing that I think is really interesting is that, as James mentioned, this is becoming less so, but to this point, it’s kind of discreet and countable in a way that a lot of our other activity, especially online activity, isn’t. You can go out on and, you know, how many times am I messaging this thing? So I think that kind of has lended itself to the natural kind of like, well, how much does each one of these queries, what does that mean for energy?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google recently released data on the energy footprint of its AI model, Gemini, a couple of months after you guys put out your report. What did you make of that? Like, was it helpful? Can we trust those numbers? I guess wouldn’t they be incentivized to portray themselves as very energy friendly?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it would have been nice to get these when we were reporting, but as James mentioned earlier, these companies know better than anybody what their energy footprint is. So I think there’s such value in getting some of this data. And Google had a really good technical report that went through kind of in-depth, you know, here’s where the energy is coming from this much from, you know the AI chips, this much from other processes. But I think it’s really significant what wasn’t included in that report. And what wasn’t included in the report is any sort of information about, you know, the total queries that its Gemini model gets in a day. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google is able to point to this number and say, hey, look, this is such a small number. It’s in line with what we found for, kind of, our median text model. You know, something like a second or so in the microwave per query. But that’s, you know, for what Google says is an average or median query. You know, it’s not kind of giving us the full range, including, you now, different kind of queries that we know would take up a lot more energy. It doesn’t include image and video, which we know are more energy intensive. And ultimately we’re not able to, without that total number of, you not, how many times is this model being queried and giving responses a day? How many users, how many daily users? We don’t know the total footprint. We can only say, here’s this little number.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the energy grid. The type of energy matters, right? Like there are a lot of discussion on renewables versus fossil fuels. What might impact where that energy comes from when it comes to building data centers and maintaining them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is something that I really focused on in our reporting because as I think I put it in the piece, if we just had data centers that were hooked up to a bunch of solar panels and they ran when the sun is shining, oh, what a lovely world it would be, and I would be a lot less worried about all this. But the reality is that today, grids around the world are largely reliant on fossil fuels. So burning things like, you know, natural gas and coal to run the grid, keep the lights on. And one concern is what the grid will look like as energy demand from AI continues to rise.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today, we see that data centers are really concentrated on the East Coast, in places like Virginia, tends to be very natural gas heavy, reliant on coal. There are data centers that are on grids that have a lot more solar and hydropower and wind, and that means that the relative climate impact of data centers in those places can be lower than in the more fossil fuel-heavy places.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think there’s a concern that as a lot, a lot of data center come online really quickly and need more electricity added to the grid in order to run, what is being added to grid in in order support those? Right now, the overwhelming answer is natural gas. And so that means that a lot of these new data centers will come with a pretty significant climate footprint attached.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We may not know the exact amount of energy that the AI industry is actually using, but what we do know is that it’s a lot, and it is putting a strain on our already limited resources. Each individual query does cost something, and it adds up. Plus, there’s everything running in the background that we can’t measure. So what is each individual person responsible for? I mean, should we be worried about the future? Is there anything that we could actually do? Time for a new tab: does my AI footprint matter in the big picture? Luckily, Casey dove into this exact topic last year. She believes that policing individual AI usage isn’t as helpful in the grand scheme of things. Here’s why we should shift our focus, instead of putting the onus on each person to change their own behavior.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As we went through this reporting, I got a lot of questions and I had a lot of questions myself about, you know, what does this mean for me and my personal choices about AI? And again, kind of as somebody who spent a lot of time reporting on climate change, it really reminded me of the conversation around climate footprint. You know, what is my climate footprint? What should I personally do differently to help, kind of, address climate change? And what I’ve come to kind of understand through my reporting and believe is that climate change is this massive problem that goes beyond any single one of us. And there’s a really significant limit to how much our individual choices can address a global problem that is very systemic. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can compost all you want, but if only gas vehicles are available to you and that’s the only way you can get around in your community, there’s only so much you can do. And we now know that some fossil fuel funded PR campaigns helped to popularize this idea of carbon footprint to kind of shift the focus on to individuals and away from these big, powerful companies. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think that I see some parallels with AI today, you know, this attempt to kind of shift focus on, you now, well, are you using ChatGPT too many times in a day rather than what is the global impact and like, why aren’t these companies being more transparent about what the energy use of AI is on their scale. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think ultimately, you know, there are limits to this. Like if you’re making a million AI slop videos every single day, I think that’s an individual action that you could probably safely make a choice that would be better for energy use. But overall, I think we should more be using our limited time and energy in the day to push for more transparency. You know, ask for regulations around AI and what’s powering it, and just generally not be so hard on ourselves because we operate in this system where it’s increasingly hard to get away from AI. As we’ve talked about, even if you don’t choose to go onto, you know chatgpt.com, you’re often, you’re part of this AI ecosystem. So we need to be talking about what that overall system looks like and how we can change it rather than the limited power of individuals.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the biggest unanswered questions every time a data center is open is actually like, what’s the energy source going into that? And is it going to be, you know, powered with renewable sources or not? Is it just going to run 24 seven on natural gas? And so sometimes if you hyper focus on this question of your own individual footprint, it can kind of make you forget that actually there are decisions still to be made every time the data center goes up that will arguably have a bigger impact on the sort of net footprint, net emissions of it all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do we know about where the AI industry wants to take us in the future, near future, like three years from now? What do they need energy-wise or water-wise to get us there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI companies are planning for some pretty, uh, unprecedented levels of investment in, in data centers and, you know, to power all of those unprecedented levels of investment in power plants and nuclear energy and things like that. Um, I think where they want to go, uh, is to build AI models that are bigger first of all. To do that you need more and more chips and more and more power, and so there’s an incentive to just amass all of this energy and electricity. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then on the product side of it, I think these AI companies imagine that the world of AI in five years will not just be large language models that people type to and get an answer back, but that image generation and video generation and real time voice chats are kind of a part of our everyday lives. And so they’re planning for a lot more demand as well. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so you could think of this project from OpenAI and others called Stargate, which is basically a half a trillion dollars of investment into data centers that they want to pop up around the country. And I think the reason why they’re seeing success politically from this is that AI companies have framed AI as a question of national security, right? If the US wants to win this AI race against China, then the country that has the most energy is the country will create the best AI and the sort of you know, impedance to all of that is access to, to energy. And that’s why these companies have sort of made it their top priority.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and just to add to that, I mean, I think these big dreams about, you know, how big AI could get, it’s going to be a lot of electricity. So as of 2024, data centers used over 400 terawatt hours of electricity, about 1.5% of all electricity used around the world. By 2030, the International Energy Agency says that that could more than double reaching 945 terawatts. Sorry to use inscrutable units, but that’s about 3% of global electricity consumption.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is that in microwave hours? [\u003cem>Laughter\u003c/em>]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A whole lot of microwaves, so many microwaves. So I think that basically we’re seeing really significant, really fast shifts and fast growth in electricity, including in places like the US that have seen very flat electricity demand for over a decade. And so I think that this is all going to add up to really complicated effects and really complicated, kind of, effects for local communities where these data centers and where these power plants are gonna be used.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something I didn’t totally get before I learned more from Casey and before we started reporting on this. So data centers were doing a lot of stuff in the early 2000s, like, this is Netflix, social media, like, all sorts of streaming, but electricity going to those data centers stayed pretty flat, and it wasn’t until AI that you actually started to see a huge jump in the amount of electricity that data centers required.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most AI companies, or AI hype guys who are investing very heavily in AI companies will say something like, oh, AI can solve problems like climate change, so the energy usage is worth it. How much do you guys buy into that argument? Llike, does it hold any water?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s so much potential for all kinds of AI, again, beyond chatbots, in all kinds problems that are related to climate change, from materials discovery, finding new materials that could make better batteries or help us capture carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, superconductors that can move electricity around super efficiently. There’s also ways that AI could be used to help the grid run more efficiently. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s really interesting research in all of these areas that I’m following very closely. But at this point, it’s all early stage. It’s all research. And I think there’s great potential for AI to be a positive force for the climate. But I think it’s absolutely irresponsible for us to punt on all of this concerns about AI’s current energy use because of some potential. Because there’s always the chance that this doesn’t work. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think in any case, the progress could be significant, but it’s not gonna be a silver bullet. So I think we need to reckon very seriously with the current energy problems that we’re seeing now, rather than try to make some future promise that may never come true, build all this infrastructure that will be online for decades to come and could change our climate forever. Just doesn’t make sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you think the most misunderstood part of this whole energy AI use conversation is?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that there’s kind of a nuanced picture of just how important AI energy use is in context. So it is true that AI is probably a small part of your individual energy picture. And in fact, in terms of like the global energy use picture, it’s 3% in 2030. That doesn’t seem like very much. But that kind of change over such a short amount of time is going to be very significant for especially local grids where this is taking place. It will have significant impacts for climate change. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of build out will definitely not go unnoticed by the climate, but I think the biggest impacts here will be faced by local communities seeing data centers going up, local communities with new fossil fuel infrastructure going up. And so all at once, this is a small fraction of individual and even global energy use, and a very, very significant trend for the energy system of the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Looking toward the future is important, but the AI industry is changing residential communities right now in real time. The data center room promises to bring jobs and economic growth, but are AI companies following through on that? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Next week, we’re taking our deep dive to one of the fastest growing hubs for AI data centers, Atlanta. But for now, let’s close all of these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was edited by Chris Hambrick and produced by Chris Egusa, who’s our senior editor and also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager a\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">nd Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Apple Maker Ala F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nOkay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but… if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends too, or even your enemies, or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Your Digital Footprint Reveals More Than You Think",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How easy is it to find someone from a single video posted online? To find out, Morgan put her own privacy to the test. She asked TikTok creator JoseMonkey, who’s famous for geolocating people who send him videos asking to be found, to track her down. JoseMonkey started as a geolocation hobbyist who turned to creating videos to bring attention to common mistakes people make when posting online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Morgan breaks down why personal operational security matters and what digital hygiene actually looks like in practice. JoseMonkey walks through how he finds people using the smallest scraps of information, and the steps you can take to make sure you aren’t exposing too much in your posts. And Eva Galperin, cybersecurity director of Electronic Frontier Foundation, explains how to use a process called “threat modeling” to protect your online privacy in a way that’s practical rather than paranoid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4398554612\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://josemonkey.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose Monkey\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, content creator and online privacy advocate\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/about/staff/eva-galperin\">Eva Galperin\u003c/a>, director of cybersecurity at the Electronic Frontier Foundation\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We partnered with KQED’s audience news team on a companion guide that breaks down online privacy in a clear, shareable format. You can find it, along with other explainers and guides, on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/explainers\">KQED’s explainers page\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/how-tos/2025/06/06/have-llms-finally-mastered-geolocation/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Have LLMs Finally Mastered Geolocation?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Foeke Postma and Nathan Patin, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bellingcat\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://ssd.eff.org/\">Surveillance Self-Defense\u003c/a> — The Electronic Frontier Foundation\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j00qG1bDlP8\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How micro-online posting can be a macro privacy risk \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— JoseMonkey, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TedX Talks\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of us might feel pretty confident about our online privacy. But how confident are you, really? Enough to challenge Josemonkey? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m JoseMonkey and I find people who ask to be found. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 1 from JoseMonkey TikTok video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey, JoseMonkey, where am I? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 2 from JoseMonkey TikTok video] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tell me where I am, JoseMonkey. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 3 from JoseMonkey TikTok video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">JoseMonkey, please come and find me\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You may have seen Jose’s videos on TikTok or YouTube. He’s a content creator, online privacy advocate, and amateur geolocation researcher.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People send me videos recorded from all over the world, and I try to figure out where those videos were recorded and say, you know, here is where you were when you did that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oversharing is the social norm online. Take one scroll through any social media app, and count how many posts you see of someone else’s private life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, for one, tend to be overly cautious when it comes to posting and privacy. As a journalist, and also someone who’s been maybe too online since a young age, I don’t know how to not post. But I also take my privacy very seriously and take precautions when I post. I scrutinize every photo and video to make sure that there’s nothing identifiable like street names or even window views. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I share my location with trusted loved ones on “Find My Friends,” but you’ll never catch me publicly posting about where I am until after I’ve left. I don’t like the idea of total strangers knowing where I am at any given moment.But for the sake of content and this show, I faced my fears and asked Jose to find me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan video for JoseMonkey 1]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi Josemonkey, I’ll give you a hint. I am somewhere in Los Angeles. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I recorded that video, wiped the location metadata and then triple checked that it was in fact wiped, and then sent it off to Jose. We got on a call a few days later. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I have to say that video, um, I don’t know if, if it is possible for me to find it or not. I will be, you know, totally transparent and say that,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honestly? I went out of my way to give Jose a bit of a challenge. I recorded this video across the street from a strip of bars and restaurants in East Los Angeles. I took it at night, with the flash on, so the background was pretty dark. In fact, Jose wasn’t able to find me by the time I interviewed him a few days later.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s not a lot of writing. I think there was the word public, um, it looked like, uh, behind you, um, on a building. But other than that, there really wasn’t a lot to see there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was convinced that I had done it. I was the one who stumped JoseMonkey. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My stranger danger philosophy finally paid off. Until Jose emailed me two weeks later with Google Maps coordinates. There, on Eagle Rock Boulevard, was a little red pin where I had parked and recorded the video before heading to the wine bar. So, I called up Jose again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I, I found an area that looked like it might be right, so I was like checking to look at, and I, and I panned over and I saw the words on there and I was like, wait a minute. And I was like, if that says public, and, uh, I, I audibly gasped. I could not believe I found it. It was a bit of needle in the haystack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I also can’t believe you found it. And it’s funny because I went through the effort of like, I even cropped in the video a bit, so you couldn’t even see, I don’t think you could see any street signs. I was like, I’m gonna make sure you can’t even see the corner of the sidewalk. In case that’s like a hint.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>JoseMonkey: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I basically sent you a video that I would’ve recorded and put online myself, um, knowing that I am a little bit paranoid about this kind of thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. So I think that’s a really good point and I think that’s why it’s a good example because while I like to, you know, come up with clever ways to find people, um, the important takeaway here is that a sufficiently motivated individual who has an attention to detail and time to spend can find you from a video like that now. Again, I don’t wanna scare people by saying that, but, uh, people should know it is possible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s not just what you post that makes your privacy vulnerable. Your digital footprint includes all of your online activity. Passwords, location data, banking details, and tons of other sensitive information can be obtained regardless of your social media use. That information, in the hands of bad actors can be used for scams, stalking, and a whole slate of nefarious activities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what does practicing digital hygiene entail? How do you make yourself less findable, without giving up on the internet entirely? And, the burning question: How did JoseMonkey find me? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this is a practice known as Personal OpSec. That’s short for Operations Security. It involves assessing risk and taking precautions to protect your personal information. Essentially, trying to minimize your digital footprint. And this can be super overwhelming, especially if you, like many other people, have used the internet for the last 20 years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s start by breaking down how bad actors get a hold of this information. And it usually starts with details that are already posted on public social media accounts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Time to open our first tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How do you find someone online? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose spent a lot of time trying to find me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So for the, the video that you sent me from Los Angeles, there was not really a lot of information there. Honestly, it was a grind. I was looking at just many, many different locations.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some of the things I observed, um, as I did that is that your video had utility poles on the side of the road that you were on, as well as on the other side. And, um, it seems like a small detail, but not every street in LA has those kinds of utility poles and doesn’t necessarily have them on both sides. The intersection that you were sort of close to wasn’t at like a 90 degree intersection. It was at sort of an angle and I could tell that there was a road kind of coming into another road where there was what appeared to be, like, a median in the middle because we have a bush that appears just like in the middle of the road. So I knew that, that that had to be a divided road, which again, you know, helps to, helps to limit the number of possible places, right? So, um, so long story short, and I probably spent hours. It was multiple hours for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s worth noting that Jose doesn’t have a background in privacy or security. He was a geolocation hobbyist for over a decade—a hobby that revolves around online maps and location data. This hobby made him more aware of how much people were sharing about themselves online and how that information could be used against them. So a few years ago, he decided to raise awareness by using an approach that would actually get people to pay attention. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I had this idea that maybe I could demonstrate that, through a video in which I would walk through the process of how I could look at a seemingly, you know, um, you know, mundane video that doesn’t show very much and show how I was able to figure out exactly where it was. And I, I thought that might be something that people would think was both interesting, but maybe slightly unsettling and then they would, you know, pay attention to this, um, this idea of, of, uh, internet safety.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When someone first, uh, tags you in a video and they’re like, hi, JoseMonkey, please find me. Um, you pull up that video, what’s the first thing you do?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> First I download the videos so that I can get them on a big screen. I can, you know, freeze frame, slow it down, zoom way in, all the things that are gonna give me the best shot at seeing everything that’s in the video. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose isn’t using highly technical or exclusive tools in his process. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People often joke that like, oh, you must be with one of the three letter agencies. Nah, I’m just a regular guy and I’m just using, you know, the same stuff that, that you have access to on your computer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You might see this one tag on his videos: OSINT. That’s the practice of using open source intelligence or publicly available sources to collect and analyze information. Those sources can include public government databases, mapping tools like Google Maps, or crowdsourced projects like OpenStreetMap, a collaborative map of the world. And sometimes, it gets a little more niche. You know those sites where train hobbyists track railroad routes, or preservationists archive old headstones in cemeteries? Turns out, those niche sites are super helpful for geolocation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Just the other day I posted a video in which I found someone who was standing in a, a park near a, a bridge\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and I happen to know that there is a website that catalogs historic bridges and that you can search for them by various different characteristics of those bridges, like, what kind of bridge it is, what, what the bridge carries, how many spans it has, things like that. And, um, I was able to find them actually fairly quickly just by using, you know, that database to look up, uh, the bridges that matched the criteria I was looking for. So that was a very specific case. Like I knew I needed a bridge, so I used a bridge website, right. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But sometimes I will need to correlate bits of information I see in the video, like, you’re at a particular brand of gas station and it’s close to a water tower and also very close to, I don’t know, say like a, a golf course. Like, if I can see all those things in a video, there are tools that you can use to, uh, find those things in close proximity to each other. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When people record videos, usually if you record a video that you’re posting on the internet or a photo, whatever it is, you are usually very focused on the things in the foreground: yourself, your cat, whatever you’re, you know, you’re recording a video of. But it’s all the things in the background that I’m looking at. So I’m just trying to see was there a sign you didn’t realize was there? Is there, uh, a car with a license plate that might tell me what state this is, things like that. I’m looking at all the details in the background. Very specifically, anything with writing on it is always, um, something that to me, um, you know, is, is likely to be useful in my search.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sometimes, a person might not even need those little details to find someone else’s location, because an app will do the work for them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So before Jose was able to find my first location in Los Angeles, I had actually sent him a second video, as a backup, in case he couldn’t find me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Morgan video for JoseMonkey 2]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s a hint … I am not in LA anymore … Good luck with the search! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was able to locate that one pretty quickly and wanted to highlight a specific tool he used. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, some of the things we can see in that video are what appears to be an outdoor hockey rink. Um. It’s, uh, it is near a fairly large body of water. I didn’t know if it was a lake or a river or a bay or what it was.But it looked pretty big. Across the water. We can see some, some buildings and they look like older buildings, maybe brick buildings. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose started looking for outdoor hockey rinks near bodies of water. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I used a different tool and this is a thing that I feel like people should know about. I used a reverse image search tool. The specific one I used is Google Lens, which many people are probably, uh, familiar with. What it does is you can take a picture, whether it’s just a photograph or a still frame from a video and plug that into this tool, and it will try to find images online that match that thing. And frequently it can tell you where a place is. So I, I guess you were in Queens, like Bayside, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Exactly there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I was able to plug that into Google Lens and it showed me somebody’s Instagram post, which was taken very near there. And it wasn’t obvious at first exactly where it was, but it was pretty straightforward from there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose doesn’t like to use Google Lens for his videos, because he said it takes the fun out of the game. For him, finding people is like solving a puzzle. But he pointed out that AI-powered tools like Google Lens are becoming increasingly common. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, there are fancy tools and sophisticated queries that you can do to find all sorts of places, and I love doing that. But sometimes it’s either somebody with access to something like Google Lens that we all have access to, or somebody who’s just willing to look at the streets of Los Angeles for hours on end. Um, so people need to know that. Those are all possibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so now that we understand how people can be found through their videos, let’s talk about how to avoid being found. And no, you don’t necessarily have to move off the grid and stop using the internet entirely to do that. We’re talking about internet safety … that’s after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How do you post safely? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back with JoseMonkey. He’s the TikTok creator who finds people, but only if they want to be found. If you don’t want to be found? He’s going to walk us through some of the most common mistakes that people make when posting photos or videos of themselves online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One mistake that is really easy to rectify is really to just review what you’re posting before you post it. Many people really don’t, they record something and they just press send, whatever the button says in the app.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, if they’re recording those things and not really reviewing them, they may not even realize that there was like some big thing that they forgot that they didn’t want to include. And sometimes fixing that is so easy. Most of the social media apps, even if you record a video in app, they give you editing tools to trim and, you know, edit or, or put a sticker, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like, even if you recorded a video and you realize after the fact, once you review it, that, oh no, there was a street sign right behind me that tells everybody where I was. You can either trim that piece out, sometimes you can put a sticker over it in the app and you know, those can be good ways to obscure the information or, you know, if there’s time you might be able to just rerecord it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But if you never reviewed it, you wouldn’t even have a chance to figure that out and it might be out there before you even realize what you know, what information you revealed. So I’d say that’s a really big one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I feel like there are very obvious ways to find people. Like I see so many videos of people posting their new apartment tours or posting their walk from their home, from the front door of their home all the way to like, walking their kids to school, you know, and like kind of showing that whole walk. And that’s pretty obvious, like, that is a safety risk. But what are the more, I guess, subtle tells that people should be more aware of?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The more you move the camera, the more information you’re going to show. So I think people don’t realize sometimes, it’s definitely true that like if you’re out for a walk somewhere, people can see everything around you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sometimes people record videos in their car, even in moving cars, which I don’t really recommend because it’s not particularly safe. But I think people underestimate how much you can see through the windows of your car. I think they think that, like, they’re in their car, it’s kinda like being in their house and, you know, nobody’s gonna see anything. But that is not always the case. Sometimes you can see quite a lot through the rear windshield, through the windows, sometimes even in the mirrors. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another thing I would say about cars is that sometimes people really don’t think about the fact that most of us have a GPS in our car that tells you where you are at any given time. And if you just happen to be recording in your car and you just are looking around and you show people your GPS, well you just told everybody where you are. So I think that it is good to consider each individual video, or photo or whatever you’re creating.But it’s also important to consider the aggregate. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it may be that you only revealed one little piece of information in your video that tells people something, but you may not remember that like three years ago, you posted something that’s still there on your account that revealed some other bit of information. Right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another thing that I would say is your digital footprint is really bigger than one account or one platform. Chances are you have lots of different accounts and now it’s like, okay, well now I have this whole, you know, just wealth of data about you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So if, two years ago, you tweeted something and it kind of gave people a vague idea of what city you lived in. And then over on Instagram you posted something else that shows your face, right? And so now people they know what city you live in, they know what you look like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then maybe on some other social media site, maybe you use your real name, right? Like, maybe your LinkedIn is connected there and now that says like your full name and where you work. So now people have like, you know, all these bits and pieces of information about you, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that it’s really worth everyone’s time to consider like, how much of my information do I want out there? And if you feel like, you know, well, I’m not really at risk there, well then, you know, you can roll the dice and see what happens.But people’s information ends up getting leaked even when they’re being relatively good about it. So some people are just like, well, you know, why should I bother? But you don’t necessarily need to make it easier for people. Right? Just because it’s already possible that they might get your information some other way.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I would say there’s never a better time to start, you know, policing your own internet hygiene than when you realize you made a mistake. Practicing it is really the best thing you can do because it becomes easier when you’re in the habit of reviewing the video, you’re in the habit of saying like, oh wait, what was in shot when I took, that photo? It becomes a bit second nature, I think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Digital hygiene involves more than just what you post. Your social accounts might be private, or, you might not use social media at all. But you probably still use the internet—for online shopping, or job applications, or just logging into your banking app. All of that involves a feast of personal data which might land in the wrong hands. So how do you protect it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is a threat model? \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eva Galperin is the director of cybersecurity at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a nonprofit organization that advocates for digital privacy and free speech. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So trying to protect everything from everybody all the time is, uh, is overwhelming and confusing, and honestly, you don’t need to do it. The only way to protect everything from everybody all the time is to go live as a hermit, on a mountain and fling all of your devices into the sea, uh, which is presumably located near this mountain.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t panic though, Eva’s going to explain why you don’t need to do all that just to stay safe. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Threat modeling is, uh, a way of thinking about. Uh, what you wanna protect, who you want to protect it from, uh, in such a way that leads you to the appropriate mitigation so that you do the stuff that protects the things that are important in cases that are likely to happen instead of spending all of your time just becoming a hermit and fleeing your devices into the ocean.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Threat modeling is important, because everyone has different security needs. It involves asking yourself a series of questions: what you want to protect? who you want to protect it from? How do you want to protect it? how bad will the consequences be if you fail? And how far are you willing to go to protect it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, I have a very precious American Girl doll that I’ve had since I was a kid—that’s what I want to protect. Who do I want to protect it from? My rambunctious family members who are a bit too young to play with it. How bad are the consequences if I fail? Well, my doll’s hair will probably never be the same. How much trouble am I willing to go through to prevent that? I’m not going to go as far as locking the doll away in some museum grade case—keeping it on a shelf that the kids can’t reach until they’re older will probably be enough. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s threat modeling, but the cherished childhood toy is your personal information. Who you want to protect it from, and how you need to protect it, depends on your situation. And threat modeling looks different for everyone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For example, abortion is now illegal in 13 states. Let’s look at the needs of those involved in abortion access—a group that will want to protect themselves and patients from government surveillance. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Someone who volunteers to drive patients to and from their abortions might use a VPN and a secondary, anonymous social account for their volunteer work. They may use an encrypted messaging app like Signal to communicate with patients. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Presumably you are not interested in having some sort of third party get their hands on those messages. A lot of the time people will tell you, you know, our messages are encrypted. Encryption is a term that could mean a lot of different things. And sometimes what it means is that the message is encrypted in transit, meaning that like, a third party, like the telco, can’t read it. And sometimes it is end-to-end encrypted, meaning that even the platform that you are on is unable to read your messages. And this is really important because if governments and law enforcement wanna get their hands on your messages, what they do is they show up with like, a warrant or a subpoena to the telco or to the company.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so if the telco or the company doesn’t have that information, then they need to show up to you in order to get that information, or they need to show up to the person who is on the other end of that conversation, and that gives you the ability to go lawyer up and potentially fight this subpoena and to know when your information is being handed out, which is a thing that you would not, uh, necessarily know otherwise. So what you should be looking for in your messaging service is end-to-end encryption. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anyone involved in abortion access may also disable location services or turn off their phone when they’re around reproductive healthcare clinics. And why does that matter? Well … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So there is an entire industry of people who run around building up sort of profiles of people based on who they are and where they’re going, and what websites they look at, and what apps they download and where they are located, what their preferences are, what they buy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what they do is they gather up all of this information. Uh, sometimes they, uh, gather it from many different sources and then they aggregate it in order to make an even more detailed and clear picture about who you are. And then they turn around and they sell this information usually to advertisers, or to people who are interested in sort of targeting certain kinds of groups with advertising but also to governments and law enforcements and even to individuals. You can sign up for, uh, all kinds of data broker services. They market themselves as people finder sites and you can find out a lot about people simply by subscribing to one of those and entering the information that you want about somebody into one of those. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A journalist covering abortion, on the other hand, will have a different threat model, especially when it comes to protecting their sources and themselves.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some of the other things that you might want to do as a journalist is you might wanna think about the way in which you communicate with your sources, especially if your sources prefer to remain anonymous. You wanna make sure that you can protect them. So you might wanna communicate with them through Signal, for example, instead of over WhatsApp or over SMS or carrier pigeon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You may also wanna think about anti-harassment. One of the big problems that journalists face, especially female journalists and journalists from marginalized groups and communities, is they disproportionately face harassment for their work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you might wanna think about just doing a full review of what it is possible to find out about you online through like, a simple search engine search. And if you find stuff that you think is, may potentially be used against you by harassers, you can take that stuff down. You can lock it up. You can make those posts private, If it is on a platform that has, uh, you know, the ability to make private posts, um. Or if somebody else is hosting it, this is actually one of the most common sources of, uh, sort of data leaks about our private lives. It’s not, uh, our posting stuff about where we are and what we’re doing, but our friends posting stuff and often they will. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It would also behoove journalists to talk to their friends and family and their colleagues about how they talk about each other in public spaces. And I don’t mean like at the cafe, I mean like in digital public spaces where, where everything can be seen, where you just make an agreement that you’re not going to post stuff about each other, uh, without permission. So if you’re gonna post a photo that your friend is in, you just ask your friend in advance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And sometimes the threat isn’t anonymous trolls, the government, or friends from afar. It could be the people you live with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Threat modeling for domestic abuse situations is actually incredibly hard. Uh, one of the reasons for that is because you are dealing with a person who has physical access to your stuff, who may be able to compel you to hand over your passwords to your various devices, who knows you and your friends and where you are likely to go.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s very difficult to come up with a way to fool someone with whom you have a very close romantic connection because they could, you know, they could call up your friends and family and tell them, I’m just really concerned about my partner and their wellbeing, so if you could just tell me where they are. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s one of the things that I see the most often and so when I talk to survivors of domestic abuse who are looking for a way to leave their abuser, the very first thing that I do is I try to help them just come up with like one account or one device, or one platform where they know their communications are safe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, threat modeling looks different for everyone. If you’re not a journalist, or an activist, or celebrity, or influencer, or anyone else in a public-facing, highly scrutinized career, what’s the threat? For most people, it’s the scammers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the big problems that we have right now is that we are in a golden age of grift. This is, if you exist in the digital world at all, if you have a phone, if you have an email address, if you have ways of getting messages sent to you, then you’re constantly getting messages from scammers and from criminals, and often they’re, they’re after different things. In the long term what they’re after is usually money, sometimes. In the short term what they’re after is access to your accounts, or access to other people who trust you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One common method is known as ransomware, which is a type of malware, an umbrella term for malicious software. Bad actors trick you into downloading software that locks up your device and holds it hostage until you pay a ransom. Do they unlock your device once you pay? Not always. Sometimes, adversaries use malware to spy on you, control your devices, and steal your information.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A more common threat is known as phishing. That’s phishing with a PH. Sometimes, it arrives in your inbox with the same logo and name as your bank, inviting you to log in. But if you look closer, the email address is slightly off. Or it could look like someone claiming to be your boss, instructing you to log into your work account as soon as possible. They even impersonate family members and partners. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically, phishing scams pretend to be someone you trust, and they lure you to click on a link, or log into their fake site, in order to obtain your username and password. Sometimes, clicking on a phishing attack link also installs malware, so it’s a real double whammy of security hell.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some of the stuff to look for as a sort of indicator of a scam is a sense of urgency. Something is on fire, an emergency is happening, or like you could get rich if you click here in the next like five minutes. And that sense of urgency is aimed at overriding your common sense. And a lot of us feel very smart because, you know, every day we get targeted with like six of these things and we don’t fall for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what’s really important to understand is that all the scammer needs is for you to have one bad day. If they come at you half a dozen times a day, eventually you’re gonna be tired, you’re gonna be cranky. Something’s gonna look plausible to you. And even the smartest person, even the most, you know, technically adept and aware person can get scammed and can end up sort of the, the victim of one of these grifters.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have to stay humble. We need to maintain eternal vigilance and also we need to not blame the people who fall for these things. I think that there’s a lot of like, well, you’re, you’re just too dumb. You didn’t see it. I wouldn’t have clicked on that. And I think that kind of victim blaming really is counterproductive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, so we’ve covered threat modeling. Luckily, there are precautions you can take that might give you a few extra layers of protection in case you do fall for one of these scams. They’re also just good habits for everyone. What do they look like in practice?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Let’s open one last tab.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Digital hygiene checklist. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well the good news is that there’s some just basic like wash-your-hands, data privacy hygiene that everyone can engage in that will make things safer for them from most of the kinds of threats that most people face every day,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> First on the checklist: Passwords \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Secure your accounts. In order to secure your accounts, you wanna make sure that all of your passwords are different from one another, and that they are long.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because a long password is what makes a password harder to crack. But then you are left with the question of how are you going to remember all of these very long, strong passwords that are different from one another? And for that, you use a password manager. So I recommend that everybody install a password manager on their devices. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Your password manager will be unlocked with a single password. That single password, again, should be long and strong and easy for you to memorize. In order to make it easier for you to memorize, I usually recommend a pass phrase, like five or six words chosen at random, because that’s easier to remember than just like 40 or 50 random numbers and letters. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are a couple of things that you should think about. The most important one is to go to your nearest friendly search engine and do a search on the name of the passport manager and security incident. So you wanna go look to see whether or not it has a history of being broken into, a history of being untrustworthy. If it has a history of being untrustworthy, don’t touch it. If you don’t find a bunch of security incidents, it’s probably okay or good enough. The best password manager is the one that you actually use. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there’s a nifty little shield called two-factor authentication. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So two-factor authentication just means that in order to get into this account, you now need two things instead of one thing. You need the password and you need an authentication code, which is sent to you in some fashion. The most common way in which we receive authentication codes is usually over SMS.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So you are sent a text message. That text message goes to your phone. This is the least secure way of securing an account. And the reason for this is SMS messages are not encrypted, which means that it is possible to intercept them, for example, at the Telco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is much easier for other people to get their hands on these messages and to use them to log into your account. Uh, it is still better than nothing in most cases. Having 2FA over SMS is in most cases probably better than having no 2FA at all. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the better way in which to have your second factor of authentication work is through an authenticator app. So you install an app on your device, and what it does is you sync it to your account and when you are logging in you go to the app and it will give you the code that you enter in addition to your password. This is safer because it is not sending that data over SMS. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For extra security, some people might opt for a physical key, which is almost like a little keychain-sized flash drive you stick into your devices to log in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Now this is both good and bad, if you lose your physical key, you are permanently locked out of your device. So the bad news is it works. This also means that if you break your physical key and you don’t have like, a backup key somewhere, you can end up locked out of your account.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And most importantly, if you are in a situation in which you need to secure your account against somebody who has access to your stuff, who has physical access to you, who might get their hands on your key chain, where you have put all of your physical keys, then this is especially unsafe. So this is not a solution that I recommend, uh, to survivors of domestic abuse, whose abusers still have physical access to them or the spaces they’re in or to their stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then, there’s dodging the data brokers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The other thing that you might wanna do is, with your web browser, you might want to install Privacy Badger, which is a web extension which eats tracking cookies. One of the ways in which data brokers figure out where you’re going from one website to another and what you are doing is through the use of cookies. And if you have a web extension that makes it impossible for those cookies to follow you across the web, that makes things more difficult. So those are the basic things that are probably very good for everyone to do and that will take care of most of your problems most of the time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">See, that’s not so bad, is it? You don’t need the shiniest, most expensive, top of the line cybersecurity tools just to stay safe online. Most of the time, a little digital hand washing goes a long way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The truth here is that trying to protect everything from everybody all the time is a good way to drive yourself insane. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some people are almost like either overwhelmed by the idea of having to lock it all down, or some people are almost like resigned to a world without privacy because that’s just the new normal. What would you say to them? Why does privacy still matter?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well to begin with, you don’t have to lock it all down. You really don’t. You can still exist in the world. The whole idea behind privacy is not that, again, you should be a hermit who lives on a mountain with no devices. The idea behind securing your digital existence and understanding your footprint on the internet is to enable you to do the things that you want to do and that are important to you in the safest possible way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, before you post yourself, and especially before posting other people, consider practicing a little digital hygiene—at least a spritz of some digital hand sanitizer. As you can hear from my voice today, it’s flu season, after all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also teamed up with KQED’s audience news team on a digital guide that breaks down everything we talked about today in a convenient, shareable format. You can find that guide, and a bunch of other great explainers, at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/explainers\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/explainers\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And check the show notes for more privacy and security resources. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And one more quick thing before we go, we’re working on a Valentine’s Day episode and we want to hear from you! When do you think is the right time, if ever, to share your location with a significant other? Do you have a hot take on this, or a juicy story? Send us a voice note at closealltabs@kqed.org.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, now let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chris Egusa is our senior editor, and also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? And if you \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, we want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or TikTok at “close all tabs.” Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How easy is it to find someone from a single video posted online? To find out, Morgan put her own privacy to the test. She asked TikTok creator JoseMonkey, who’s famous for geolocating people who send him videos asking to be found, to track her down. JoseMonkey started as a geolocation hobbyist who turned to creating videos to bring attention to common mistakes people make when posting online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Morgan breaks down why personal operational security matters and what digital hygiene actually looks like in practice. JoseMonkey walks through how he finds people using the smallest scraps of information, and the steps you can take to make sure you aren’t exposing too much in your posts. And Eva Galperin, cybersecurity director of Electronic Frontier Foundation, explains how to use a process called “threat modeling” to protect your online privacy in a way that’s practical rather than paranoid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4398554612\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://josemonkey.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose Monkey\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, content creator and online privacy advocate\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/about/staff/eva-galperin\">Eva Galperin\u003c/a>, director of cybersecurity at the Electronic Frontier Foundation\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We partnered with KQED’s audience news team on a companion guide that breaks down online privacy in a clear, shareable format. You can find it, along with other explainers and guides, on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/explainers\">KQED’s explainers page\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/how-tos/2025/06/06/have-llms-finally-mastered-geolocation/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Have LLMs Finally Mastered Geolocation?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Foeke Postma and Nathan Patin, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bellingcat\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://ssd.eff.org/\">Surveillance Self-Defense\u003c/a> — The Electronic Frontier Foundation\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j00qG1bDlP8\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How micro-online posting can be a macro privacy risk \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— JoseMonkey, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TedX Talks\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of us might feel pretty confident about our online privacy. But how confident are you, really? Enough to challenge Josemonkey? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m JoseMonkey and I find people who ask to be found. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 1 from JoseMonkey TikTok video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey, JoseMonkey, where am I? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 2 from JoseMonkey TikTok video] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tell me where I am, JoseMonkey. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 3 from JoseMonkey TikTok video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">JoseMonkey, please come and find me\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You may have seen Jose’s videos on TikTok or YouTube. He’s a content creator, online privacy advocate, and amateur geolocation researcher.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People send me videos recorded from all over the world, and I try to figure out where those videos were recorded and say, you know, here is where you were when you did that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oversharing is the social norm online. Take one scroll through any social media app, and count how many posts you see of someone else’s private life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, for one, tend to be overly cautious when it comes to posting and privacy. As a journalist, and also someone who’s been maybe too online since a young age, I don’t know how to not post. But I also take my privacy very seriously and take precautions when I post. I scrutinize every photo and video to make sure that there’s nothing identifiable like street names or even window views. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I share my location with trusted loved ones on “Find My Friends,” but you’ll never catch me publicly posting about where I am until after I’ve left. I don’t like the idea of total strangers knowing where I am at any given moment.But for the sake of content and this show, I faced my fears and asked Jose to find me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan video for JoseMonkey 1]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi Josemonkey, I’ll give you a hint. I am somewhere in Los Angeles. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I recorded that video, wiped the location metadata and then triple checked that it was in fact wiped, and then sent it off to Jose. We got on a call a few days later. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I have to say that video, um, I don’t know if, if it is possible for me to find it or not. I will be, you know, totally transparent and say that,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honestly? I went out of my way to give Jose a bit of a challenge. I recorded this video across the street from a strip of bars and restaurants in East Los Angeles. I took it at night, with the flash on, so the background was pretty dark. In fact, Jose wasn’t able to find me by the time I interviewed him a few days later.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s not a lot of writing. I think there was the word public, um, it looked like, uh, behind you, um, on a building. But other than that, there really wasn’t a lot to see there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was convinced that I had done it. I was the one who stumped JoseMonkey. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My stranger danger philosophy finally paid off. Until Jose emailed me two weeks later with Google Maps coordinates. There, on Eagle Rock Boulevard, was a little red pin where I had parked and recorded the video before heading to the wine bar. So, I called up Jose again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I, I found an area that looked like it might be right, so I was like checking to look at, and I, and I panned over and I saw the words on there and I was like, wait a minute. And I was like, if that says public, and, uh, I, I audibly gasped. I could not believe I found it. It was a bit of needle in the haystack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I also can’t believe you found it. And it’s funny because I went through the effort of like, I even cropped in the video a bit, so you couldn’t even see, I don’t think you could see any street signs. I was like, I’m gonna make sure you can’t even see the corner of the sidewalk. In case that’s like a hint.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>JoseMonkey: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I basically sent you a video that I would’ve recorded and put online myself, um, knowing that I am a little bit paranoid about this kind of thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. So I think that’s a really good point and I think that’s why it’s a good example because while I like to, you know, come up with clever ways to find people, um, the important takeaway here is that a sufficiently motivated individual who has an attention to detail and time to spend can find you from a video like that now. Again, I don’t wanna scare people by saying that, but, uh, people should know it is possible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s not just what you post that makes your privacy vulnerable. Your digital footprint includes all of your online activity. Passwords, location data, banking details, and tons of other sensitive information can be obtained regardless of your social media use. That information, in the hands of bad actors can be used for scams, stalking, and a whole slate of nefarious activities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what does practicing digital hygiene entail? How do you make yourself less findable, without giving up on the internet entirely? And, the burning question: How did JoseMonkey find me? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this is a practice known as Personal OpSec. That’s short for Operations Security. It involves assessing risk and taking precautions to protect your personal information. Essentially, trying to minimize your digital footprint. And this can be super overwhelming, especially if you, like many other people, have used the internet for the last 20 years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s start by breaking down how bad actors get a hold of this information. And it usually starts with details that are already posted on public social media accounts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Time to open our first tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How do you find someone online? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose spent a lot of time trying to find me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So for the, the video that you sent me from Los Angeles, there was not really a lot of information there. Honestly, it was a grind. I was looking at just many, many different locations.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some of the things I observed, um, as I did that is that your video had utility poles on the side of the road that you were on, as well as on the other side. And, um, it seems like a small detail, but not every street in LA has those kinds of utility poles and doesn’t necessarily have them on both sides. The intersection that you were sort of close to wasn’t at like a 90 degree intersection. It was at sort of an angle and I could tell that there was a road kind of coming into another road where there was what appeared to be, like, a median in the middle because we have a bush that appears just like in the middle of the road. So I knew that, that that had to be a divided road, which again, you know, helps to, helps to limit the number of possible places, right? So, um, so long story short, and I probably spent hours. It was multiple hours for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s worth noting that Jose doesn’t have a background in privacy or security. He was a geolocation hobbyist for over a decade—a hobby that revolves around online maps and location data. This hobby made him more aware of how much people were sharing about themselves online and how that information could be used against them. So a few years ago, he decided to raise awareness by using an approach that would actually get people to pay attention. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I had this idea that maybe I could demonstrate that, through a video in which I would walk through the process of how I could look at a seemingly, you know, um, you know, mundane video that doesn’t show very much and show how I was able to figure out exactly where it was. And I, I thought that might be something that people would think was both interesting, but maybe slightly unsettling and then they would, you know, pay attention to this, um, this idea of, of, uh, internet safety.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When someone first, uh, tags you in a video and they’re like, hi, JoseMonkey, please find me. Um, you pull up that video, what’s the first thing you do?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> First I download the videos so that I can get them on a big screen. I can, you know, freeze frame, slow it down, zoom way in, all the things that are gonna give me the best shot at seeing everything that’s in the video. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose isn’t using highly technical or exclusive tools in his process. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People often joke that like, oh, you must be with one of the three letter agencies. Nah, I’m just a regular guy and I’m just using, you know, the same stuff that, that you have access to on your computer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You might see this one tag on his videos: OSINT. That’s the practice of using open source intelligence or publicly available sources to collect and analyze information. Those sources can include public government databases, mapping tools like Google Maps, or crowdsourced projects like OpenStreetMap, a collaborative map of the world. And sometimes, it gets a little more niche. You know those sites where train hobbyists track railroad routes, or preservationists archive old headstones in cemeteries? Turns out, those niche sites are super helpful for geolocation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Just the other day I posted a video in which I found someone who was standing in a, a park near a, a bridge\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and I happen to know that there is a website that catalogs historic bridges and that you can search for them by various different characteristics of those bridges, like, what kind of bridge it is, what, what the bridge carries, how many spans it has, things like that. And, um, I was able to find them actually fairly quickly just by using, you know, that database to look up, uh, the bridges that matched the criteria I was looking for. So that was a very specific case. Like I knew I needed a bridge, so I used a bridge website, right. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But sometimes I will need to correlate bits of information I see in the video, like, you’re at a particular brand of gas station and it’s close to a water tower and also very close to, I don’t know, say like a, a golf course. Like, if I can see all those things in a video, there are tools that you can use to, uh, find those things in close proximity to each other. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When people record videos, usually if you record a video that you’re posting on the internet or a photo, whatever it is, you are usually very focused on the things in the foreground: yourself, your cat, whatever you’re, you know, you’re recording a video of. But it’s all the things in the background that I’m looking at. So I’m just trying to see was there a sign you didn’t realize was there? Is there, uh, a car with a license plate that might tell me what state this is, things like that. I’m looking at all the details in the background. Very specifically, anything with writing on it is always, um, something that to me, um, you know, is, is likely to be useful in my search.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sometimes, a person might not even need those little details to find someone else’s location, because an app will do the work for them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So before Jose was able to find my first location in Los Angeles, I had actually sent him a second video, as a backup, in case he couldn’t find me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Morgan video for JoseMonkey 2]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s a hint … I am not in LA anymore … Good luck with the search! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was able to locate that one pretty quickly and wanted to highlight a specific tool he used. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, some of the things we can see in that video are what appears to be an outdoor hockey rink. Um. It’s, uh, it is near a fairly large body of water. I didn’t know if it was a lake or a river or a bay or what it was.But it looked pretty big. Across the water. We can see some, some buildings and they look like older buildings, maybe brick buildings. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose started looking for outdoor hockey rinks near bodies of water. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I used a different tool and this is a thing that I feel like people should know about. I used a reverse image search tool. The specific one I used is Google Lens, which many people are probably, uh, familiar with. What it does is you can take a picture, whether it’s just a photograph or a still frame from a video and plug that into this tool, and it will try to find images online that match that thing. And frequently it can tell you where a place is. So I, I guess you were in Queens, like Bayside, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Exactly there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I was able to plug that into Google Lens and it showed me somebody’s Instagram post, which was taken very near there. And it wasn’t obvious at first exactly where it was, but it was pretty straightforward from there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose doesn’t like to use Google Lens for his videos, because he said it takes the fun out of the game. For him, finding people is like solving a puzzle. But he pointed out that AI-powered tools like Google Lens are becoming increasingly common. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, there are fancy tools and sophisticated queries that you can do to find all sorts of places, and I love doing that. But sometimes it’s either somebody with access to something like Google Lens that we all have access to, or somebody who’s just willing to look at the streets of Los Angeles for hours on end. Um, so people need to know that. Those are all possibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so now that we understand how people can be found through their videos, let’s talk about how to avoid being found. And no, you don’t necessarily have to move off the grid and stop using the internet entirely to do that. We’re talking about internet safety … that’s after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How do you post safely? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back with JoseMonkey. He’s the TikTok creator who finds people, but only if they want to be found. If you don’t want to be found? He’s going to walk us through some of the most common mistakes that people make when posting photos or videos of themselves online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One mistake that is really easy to rectify is really to just review what you’re posting before you post it. Many people really don’t, they record something and they just press send, whatever the button says in the app.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, if they’re recording those things and not really reviewing them, they may not even realize that there was like some big thing that they forgot that they didn’t want to include. And sometimes fixing that is so easy. Most of the social media apps, even if you record a video in app, they give you editing tools to trim and, you know, edit or, or put a sticker, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like, even if you recorded a video and you realize after the fact, once you review it, that, oh no, there was a street sign right behind me that tells everybody where I was. You can either trim that piece out, sometimes you can put a sticker over it in the app and you know, those can be good ways to obscure the information or, you know, if there’s time you might be able to just rerecord it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But if you never reviewed it, you wouldn’t even have a chance to figure that out and it might be out there before you even realize what you know, what information you revealed. So I’d say that’s a really big one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I feel like there are very obvious ways to find people. Like I see so many videos of people posting their new apartment tours or posting their walk from their home, from the front door of their home all the way to like, walking their kids to school, you know, and like kind of showing that whole walk. And that’s pretty obvious, like, that is a safety risk. But what are the more, I guess, subtle tells that people should be more aware of?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The more you move the camera, the more information you’re going to show. So I think people don’t realize sometimes, it’s definitely true that like if you’re out for a walk somewhere, people can see everything around you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sometimes people record videos in their car, even in moving cars, which I don’t really recommend because it’s not particularly safe. But I think people underestimate how much you can see through the windows of your car. I think they think that, like, they’re in their car, it’s kinda like being in their house and, you know, nobody’s gonna see anything. But that is not always the case. Sometimes you can see quite a lot through the rear windshield, through the windows, sometimes even in the mirrors. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another thing I would say about cars is that sometimes people really don’t think about the fact that most of us have a GPS in our car that tells you where you are at any given time. And if you just happen to be recording in your car and you just are looking around and you show people your GPS, well you just told everybody where you are. So I think that it is good to consider each individual video, or photo or whatever you’re creating.But it’s also important to consider the aggregate. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it may be that you only revealed one little piece of information in your video that tells people something, but you may not remember that like three years ago, you posted something that’s still there on your account that revealed some other bit of information. Right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another thing that I would say is your digital footprint is really bigger than one account or one platform. Chances are you have lots of different accounts and now it’s like, okay, well now I have this whole, you know, just wealth of data about you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So if, two years ago, you tweeted something and it kind of gave people a vague idea of what city you lived in. And then over on Instagram you posted something else that shows your face, right? And so now people they know what city you live in, they know what you look like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then maybe on some other social media site, maybe you use your real name, right? Like, maybe your LinkedIn is connected there and now that says like your full name and where you work. So now people have like, you know, all these bits and pieces of information about you, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that it’s really worth everyone’s time to consider like, how much of my information do I want out there? And if you feel like, you know, well, I’m not really at risk there, well then, you know, you can roll the dice and see what happens.But people’s information ends up getting leaked even when they’re being relatively good about it. So some people are just like, well, you know, why should I bother? But you don’t necessarily need to make it easier for people. Right? Just because it’s already possible that they might get your information some other way.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I would say there’s never a better time to start, you know, policing your own internet hygiene than when you realize you made a mistake. Practicing it is really the best thing you can do because it becomes easier when you’re in the habit of reviewing the video, you’re in the habit of saying like, oh wait, what was in shot when I took, that photo? It becomes a bit second nature, I think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Digital hygiene involves more than just what you post. Your social accounts might be private, or, you might not use social media at all. But you probably still use the internet—for online shopping, or job applications, or just logging into your banking app. All of that involves a feast of personal data which might land in the wrong hands. So how do you protect it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is a threat model? \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eva Galperin is the director of cybersecurity at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a nonprofit organization that advocates for digital privacy and free speech. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So trying to protect everything from everybody all the time is, uh, is overwhelming and confusing, and honestly, you don’t need to do it. The only way to protect everything from everybody all the time is to go live as a hermit, on a mountain and fling all of your devices into the sea, uh, which is presumably located near this mountain.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t panic though, Eva’s going to explain why you don’t need to do all that just to stay safe. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Threat modeling is, uh, a way of thinking about. Uh, what you wanna protect, who you want to protect it from, uh, in such a way that leads you to the appropriate mitigation so that you do the stuff that protects the things that are important in cases that are likely to happen instead of spending all of your time just becoming a hermit and fleeing your devices into the ocean.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Threat modeling is important, because everyone has different security needs. It involves asking yourself a series of questions: what you want to protect? who you want to protect it from? How do you want to protect it? how bad will the consequences be if you fail? And how far are you willing to go to protect it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, I have a very precious American Girl doll that I’ve had since I was a kid—that’s what I want to protect. Who do I want to protect it from? My rambunctious family members who are a bit too young to play with it. How bad are the consequences if I fail? Well, my doll’s hair will probably never be the same. How much trouble am I willing to go through to prevent that? I’m not going to go as far as locking the doll away in some museum grade case—keeping it on a shelf that the kids can’t reach until they’re older will probably be enough. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s threat modeling, but the cherished childhood toy is your personal information. Who you want to protect it from, and how you need to protect it, depends on your situation. And threat modeling looks different for everyone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For example, abortion is now illegal in 13 states. Let’s look at the needs of those involved in abortion access—a group that will want to protect themselves and patients from government surveillance. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Someone who volunteers to drive patients to and from their abortions might use a VPN and a secondary, anonymous social account for their volunteer work. They may use an encrypted messaging app like Signal to communicate with patients. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Presumably you are not interested in having some sort of third party get their hands on those messages. A lot of the time people will tell you, you know, our messages are encrypted. Encryption is a term that could mean a lot of different things. And sometimes what it means is that the message is encrypted in transit, meaning that like, a third party, like the telco, can’t read it. And sometimes it is end-to-end encrypted, meaning that even the platform that you are on is unable to read your messages. And this is really important because if governments and law enforcement wanna get their hands on your messages, what they do is they show up with like, a warrant or a subpoena to the telco or to the company.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so if the telco or the company doesn’t have that information, then they need to show up to you in order to get that information, or they need to show up to the person who is on the other end of that conversation, and that gives you the ability to go lawyer up and potentially fight this subpoena and to know when your information is being handed out, which is a thing that you would not, uh, necessarily know otherwise. So what you should be looking for in your messaging service is end-to-end encryption. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anyone involved in abortion access may also disable location services or turn off their phone when they’re around reproductive healthcare clinics. And why does that matter? Well … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So there is an entire industry of people who run around building up sort of profiles of people based on who they are and where they’re going, and what websites they look at, and what apps they download and where they are located, what their preferences are, what they buy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what they do is they gather up all of this information. Uh, sometimes they, uh, gather it from many different sources and then they aggregate it in order to make an even more detailed and clear picture about who you are. And then they turn around and they sell this information usually to advertisers, or to people who are interested in sort of targeting certain kinds of groups with advertising but also to governments and law enforcements and even to individuals. You can sign up for, uh, all kinds of data broker services. They market themselves as people finder sites and you can find out a lot about people simply by subscribing to one of those and entering the information that you want about somebody into one of those. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A journalist covering abortion, on the other hand, will have a different threat model, especially when it comes to protecting their sources and themselves.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some of the other things that you might want to do as a journalist is you might wanna think about the way in which you communicate with your sources, especially if your sources prefer to remain anonymous. You wanna make sure that you can protect them. So you might wanna communicate with them through Signal, for example, instead of over WhatsApp or over SMS or carrier pigeon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You may also wanna think about anti-harassment. One of the big problems that journalists face, especially female journalists and journalists from marginalized groups and communities, is they disproportionately face harassment for their work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you might wanna think about just doing a full review of what it is possible to find out about you online through like, a simple search engine search. And if you find stuff that you think is, may potentially be used against you by harassers, you can take that stuff down. You can lock it up. You can make those posts private, If it is on a platform that has, uh, you know, the ability to make private posts, um. Or if somebody else is hosting it, this is actually one of the most common sources of, uh, sort of data leaks about our private lives. It’s not, uh, our posting stuff about where we are and what we’re doing, but our friends posting stuff and often they will. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It would also behoove journalists to talk to their friends and family and their colleagues about how they talk about each other in public spaces. And I don’t mean like at the cafe, I mean like in digital public spaces where, where everything can be seen, where you just make an agreement that you’re not going to post stuff about each other, uh, without permission. So if you’re gonna post a photo that your friend is in, you just ask your friend in advance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And sometimes the threat isn’t anonymous trolls, the government, or friends from afar. It could be the people you live with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Threat modeling for domestic abuse situations is actually incredibly hard. Uh, one of the reasons for that is because you are dealing with a person who has physical access to your stuff, who may be able to compel you to hand over your passwords to your various devices, who knows you and your friends and where you are likely to go.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s very difficult to come up with a way to fool someone with whom you have a very close romantic connection because they could, you know, they could call up your friends and family and tell them, I’m just really concerned about my partner and their wellbeing, so if you could just tell me where they are. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s one of the things that I see the most often and so when I talk to survivors of domestic abuse who are looking for a way to leave their abuser, the very first thing that I do is I try to help them just come up with like one account or one device, or one platform where they know their communications are safe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, threat modeling looks different for everyone. If you’re not a journalist, or an activist, or celebrity, or influencer, or anyone else in a public-facing, highly scrutinized career, what’s the threat? For most people, it’s the scammers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the big problems that we have right now is that we are in a golden age of grift. This is, if you exist in the digital world at all, if you have a phone, if you have an email address, if you have ways of getting messages sent to you, then you’re constantly getting messages from scammers and from criminals, and often they’re, they’re after different things. In the long term what they’re after is usually money, sometimes. In the short term what they’re after is access to your accounts, or access to other people who trust you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One common method is known as ransomware, which is a type of malware, an umbrella term for malicious software. Bad actors trick you into downloading software that locks up your device and holds it hostage until you pay a ransom. Do they unlock your device once you pay? Not always. Sometimes, adversaries use malware to spy on you, control your devices, and steal your information.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A more common threat is known as phishing. That’s phishing with a PH. Sometimes, it arrives in your inbox with the same logo and name as your bank, inviting you to log in. But if you look closer, the email address is slightly off. Or it could look like someone claiming to be your boss, instructing you to log into your work account as soon as possible. They even impersonate family members and partners. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically, phishing scams pretend to be someone you trust, and they lure you to click on a link, or log into their fake site, in order to obtain your username and password. Sometimes, clicking on a phishing attack link also installs malware, so it’s a real double whammy of security hell.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some of the stuff to look for as a sort of indicator of a scam is a sense of urgency. Something is on fire, an emergency is happening, or like you could get rich if you click here in the next like five minutes. And that sense of urgency is aimed at overriding your common sense. And a lot of us feel very smart because, you know, every day we get targeted with like six of these things and we don’t fall for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what’s really important to understand is that all the scammer needs is for you to have one bad day. If they come at you half a dozen times a day, eventually you’re gonna be tired, you’re gonna be cranky. Something’s gonna look plausible to you. And even the smartest person, even the most, you know, technically adept and aware person can get scammed and can end up sort of the, the victim of one of these grifters.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have to stay humble. We need to maintain eternal vigilance and also we need to not blame the people who fall for these things. I think that there’s a lot of like, well, you’re, you’re just too dumb. You didn’t see it. I wouldn’t have clicked on that. And I think that kind of victim blaming really is counterproductive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, so we’ve covered threat modeling. Luckily, there are precautions you can take that might give you a few extra layers of protection in case you do fall for one of these scams. They’re also just good habits for everyone. What do they look like in practice?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Let’s open one last tab.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Digital hygiene checklist. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well the good news is that there’s some just basic like wash-your-hands, data privacy hygiene that everyone can engage in that will make things safer for them from most of the kinds of threats that most people face every day,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> First on the checklist: Passwords \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Secure your accounts. In order to secure your accounts, you wanna make sure that all of your passwords are different from one another, and that they are long.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because a long password is what makes a password harder to crack. But then you are left with the question of how are you going to remember all of these very long, strong passwords that are different from one another? And for that, you use a password manager. So I recommend that everybody install a password manager on their devices. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Your password manager will be unlocked with a single password. That single password, again, should be long and strong and easy for you to memorize. In order to make it easier for you to memorize, I usually recommend a pass phrase, like five or six words chosen at random, because that’s easier to remember than just like 40 or 50 random numbers and letters. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are a couple of things that you should think about. The most important one is to go to your nearest friendly search engine and do a search on the name of the passport manager and security incident. So you wanna go look to see whether or not it has a history of being broken into, a history of being untrustworthy. If it has a history of being untrustworthy, don’t touch it. If you don’t find a bunch of security incidents, it’s probably okay or good enough. The best password manager is the one that you actually use. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there’s a nifty little shield called two-factor authentication. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So two-factor authentication just means that in order to get into this account, you now need two things instead of one thing. You need the password and you need an authentication code, which is sent to you in some fashion. The most common way in which we receive authentication codes is usually over SMS.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So you are sent a text message. That text message goes to your phone. This is the least secure way of securing an account. And the reason for this is SMS messages are not encrypted, which means that it is possible to intercept them, for example, at the Telco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is much easier for other people to get their hands on these messages and to use them to log into your account. Uh, it is still better than nothing in most cases. Having 2FA over SMS is in most cases probably better than having no 2FA at all. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the better way in which to have your second factor of authentication work is through an authenticator app. So you install an app on your device, and what it does is you sync it to your account and when you are logging in you go to the app and it will give you the code that you enter in addition to your password. This is safer because it is not sending that data over SMS. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For extra security, some people might opt for a physical key, which is almost like a little keychain-sized flash drive you stick into your devices to log in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Now this is both good and bad, if you lose your physical key, you are permanently locked out of your device. So the bad news is it works. This also means that if you break your physical key and you don’t have like, a backup key somewhere, you can end up locked out of your account.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And most importantly, if you are in a situation in which you need to secure your account against somebody who has access to your stuff, who has physical access to you, who might get their hands on your key chain, where you have put all of your physical keys, then this is especially unsafe. So this is not a solution that I recommend, uh, to survivors of domestic abuse, whose abusers still have physical access to them or the spaces they’re in or to their stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then, there’s dodging the data brokers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The other thing that you might wanna do is, with your web browser, you might want to install Privacy Badger, which is a web extension which eats tracking cookies. One of the ways in which data brokers figure out where you’re going from one website to another and what you are doing is through the use of cookies. And if you have a web extension that makes it impossible for those cookies to follow you across the web, that makes things more difficult. So those are the basic things that are probably very good for everyone to do and that will take care of most of your problems most of the time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">See, that’s not so bad, is it? You don’t need the shiniest, most expensive, top of the line cybersecurity tools just to stay safe online. Most of the time, a little digital hand washing goes a long way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The truth here is that trying to protect everything from everybody all the time is a good way to drive yourself insane. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some people are almost like either overwhelmed by the idea of having to lock it all down, or some people are almost like resigned to a world without privacy because that’s just the new normal. What would you say to them? Why does privacy still matter?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well to begin with, you don’t have to lock it all down. You really don’t. You can still exist in the world. The whole idea behind privacy is not that, again, you should be a hermit who lives on a mountain with no devices. The idea behind securing your digital existence and understanding your footprint on the internet is to enable you to do the things that you want to do and that are important to you in the safest possible way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, before you post yourself, and especially before posting other people, consider practicing a little digital hygiene—at least a spritz of some digital hand sanitizer. As you can hear from my voice today, it’s flu season, after all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also teamed up with KQED’s audience news team on a digital guide that breaks down everything we talked about today in a convenient, shareable format. You can find that guide, and a bunch of other great explainers, at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/explainers\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/explainers\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And check the show notes for more privacy and security resources. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And one more quick thing before we go, we’re working on a Valentine’s Day episode and we want to hear from you! When do you think is the right time, if ever, to share your location with a significant other? Do you have a hot take on this, or a juicy story? Send us a voice note at closealltabs@kqed.org.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, now let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chris Egusa is our senior editor, and also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? And if you \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, we want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or TikTok at “close all tabs.” Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"headTitle": "Are You Allowed to Record ICE? | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officer Jonathan Ross shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis, it became an instant flashpoint in the ongoing escalation of federal law enforcement violence. It also put a spotlight on the U.S. government’s efforts to prevent people from documenting federal agents in public.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode, we dig into a simple but important question: do you have the right to record ICE? Criminal justice reporter C.J. Ciaramella explains how the Trump administration is working to create a chilling effect around filming law enforcement, why legal challenges are intensifying, and how courts are increasingly pushing back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5878884828\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://reason.com/people/cj-ciaramella/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">C.J. Ciaramella\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Criminal Justice Reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reason\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://minnesotareformer.com/2026/01/07/ice-officer-fatally-shoots-driver-through-car-window-in-minneapolis/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ICE officer fatally shoots driver through car window in Minneapolis\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Max Nesterak, Madison McVan and Alyssa Chen, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Minnesota Reformer \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://reason.com/2026/01/08/you-have-the-right-to-record-ice/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Trump administration says it’s illegal to record videos of ICE. Here’s what the law says.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — C.J. Ciaramella, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reason\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://reason.com/2025/12/22/dhs-says-recording-or-following-law-enforcement-sure-sounds-like-obstruction-of-justice/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DHS says recording or following law enforcement ‘sure sounds like obstruction of justice’\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — C.J. Ciaramella, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reason\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11871364/recording-the-police-what-to-know-and-how-to-stay-safe-doing-it\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recording the Police: Tips for Safety and Awareness\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Carly Severn and Mina Kim, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://prospect.org/2025/09/09/2025-09-09-dhs-claims-videotaping-ice-raids-is-violence/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DHS Claims Videotaping ICE Raids Is ‘Violence’\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Matthew Cunningham-Cook, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The American Prospect\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2025/11/ice-detains-us-citizen-for-7-hours-after-she-photographed-agents-in-gresham.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ICE detains U.S. citizen for 7 hours after she photographed agents in Oregon\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Yesenia Amaro, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Oregonian\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/ice-immigration-protests-prosecutions-doj-arrests-591f155d50c13756842e033ea23f16d3?link_source=ta_bluesky_link&taid=6943fae5c2e22c00016e74ad&utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=bluesky\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dozens of felony cases crumble in DOJ push to punish protesters\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Michael Biesecker, Jamie Ding, Christine Fernando, Claire Rush, and Ryan J. Foley, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Associated Press \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://time.com/7344924/federal-officers-shooting-immigration-portland-minneapolis-prosecution-immunity/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What Happens When Federal Officers Use Force \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Miranda Jeyaretnam, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TIME \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/justice/2025/12/immigration-mask-ban-new-law/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California is banning masks for federal agents. Here’s why it could lose in court\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nigel Duara, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CalMatters\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just a note, this episode contains references to violence and strong language. Listen with care.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from 50501_Key_Largo Instagram Account]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: If I continue to see you following me around, I’m gonna pull you over and arrest you.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: For what? What law am I breaking?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: You’re impeding one of the investigations, okay?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was an interaction between a Border Patrol officer and a local observer in Key Largo, Florida, posted on Instagram on Monday morning. The officer threatened to arrest the observer for following and filming him, but didn’t say what law they were breaking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from 50501_Key_Largo Instagram Account]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: How am I impeding you?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: I’m not going to argue with you.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: Are you going to shoot me?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: Why would I shoot you?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: Because one of your guys, one of you federal people just shot an innocent woman and murdered her in Minneapolis.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last week, on January 7th, federal immigration and customs enforcement officers shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis, Minnesota. She was 37. The Trump administration has launched an extensive immigration crackdown in Minneapolis singling out the city’s large Somali community. Last week they sent 2,000 federal agents in what ICE Acting Director Todd Lyons described as the largest immigration operation ever.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In response, a lot of citizens have been protesting and following and monitoring ICE and CBP officers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is C.J. Ciaramella, a reporter for Reason magazine who covers criminal justice and civil liberties. He’s been reporting on the Trump administration’s crackdown on those who record or photograph ICE operations. Last Wednesday, Renee Good and her wife had just dropped their six-year-old son off at school when they came across a group of ICE agents. Bystander video shows that Renee’s car was stopped perpendicularly on the road.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And an ICE, uh, a pickup of federal immigration officers stopped in front of her and went up and were shouting at her to…there were some contradictory orders to both leave and get out of her car and started tugging on her car. She started backing up first and then as she was doing that, one of the immigration officers stepped in front her car and she started moving forward and pulling out to leave with the officer in front of her. And as he was stepping around her car, as it was moving towards him, he pulled out his gun and fired three shots and killed her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are several bystander videos that captured different angles of Renee’s last moments and the gruesome aftermath. One shows an officer denying medical assistance for Renee after a bystander identified himself as a doctor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from a video recorded by eyewitness Emily Heller]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Doctor: Can I go check a pulse? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ICE Officer: No! Back up! Now!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Doctor: I’m a physician!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily Heller: Hey, listen here! You just killed my f***ing neighbor!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Videos of the incidents immediately spread online, sparking nationwide outrage. Over the weekend, hundreds of protests gathered across the country, demanding accountability and an end to mass deportations. The Trump administration has tried to paint Renee as an agitator who was stalking and impeding upon ICE operations. On Truth Social, the president said that Renee, “Violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ICE officer, who shot her in self-defense.” But as visual forensic analysis by the New York Times, the Washington Post, and Bellingcat shows, the officer was able to step away from the car and while still standing, fired at least 2 of the 3 shots through the window as the car turned away from him. As ICE operations continue across the country, the Trump administration has escalated retaliating against anyone who follows or records federal officers. This includes journalists, and any civilian just observing ICE. In the last year, ICE and Border Patrol officers have threatened, arrested, and detained those who document their activities or report on their whereabouts. And now, federal agents have appeared to reference the shooting of Renee Good in confrontations with observers, like in this video, which was posted on the r/minneapolis subreddit this week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 1 from r/minnesota Reddit page] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer:This is your warning! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: For what? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Stop f***ing following us! You are impeding operations! This is the United States Federal Government! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: I live over here, I gotta get to my house! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer:This is- this is your warning! Go home!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: Go to church. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Did you not learn from what just happened? Go home! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: Learn what?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or in this video, which was posted on the r/minnesota subreddit days after Renee was killed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 2 from r/minnesota Reddit page] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Have y’all not learned from the past couple of days? Have you not learned?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recorder: Learned what? What’s our lesson here? What do you want us to learn?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Following federal agents.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recorder: Give me my phone back!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In light of all this, many people are asking, are you allowed to record federal agents? And what are your rights when it comes to recording ICE, especially as the Trump administration increasingly tries to target those who do? This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Let’s start with a new tab. Are you allowed to record ice? We’re back with C.J. Ciaramella, who reports on criminal justice and civil liberties for Reason Magazine. He’s going to put this into context for us. ICE activities have been escalating all throughout the past year, but what led up to this moment? And does it feel like a tipping point to you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It really does. This has been sort of the, I don’t want to say logical conclusion because that doesn’t put it in the right light, but over this past summer, we’ve seen escalating rhetoric from the Trump administration about people filming and recording and monitoring ICE and also trying to warn other people about ICE activities. They described this as illegal activity, saying that it’s obstruction of justice or impeding federal immigration officers and they vowed to like, prosecute people who do this. And they also made it clear to these line officers working at CBP and ICE, yeah that they consider this illegal activity. That they consider following around and monitoring these agents to be very confrontational, illegal. There are dozens of videos of ICE and CBP officers threatening to arrest people and pulling them out of the car solely for following and recording them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the main reasons that this incident specifically has exploded is because there are multiple video recordings taken by bystanders that have been shared online, gone viral, you know, just been spread among news outlets. You’ve been reporting on how the Trump administration is trying to make the case that recording ICE officers in public is illegal, like you said. But just to be clear, does the public have the right to record law enforcement and specifically ICE?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I gotta be a little bit nuanced about this because the Supreme Court actually hasn’t put out a ruling saying there’s an unambiguous First Amendment right to film the police. But all of the seven US Federal Circuit Courts that have considered the issue have pretty much said there is a First Amendment right to record the police and observe the police, and they’ve all decided that pretty unambiguously. And this ranges from, you know, the ninth circuit, which is traditionally a pretty liberal leaning court to the fifth circuit, which has a reputation as a more conservative circuit court, you know? The fifth circuit looked at it and said, you know, based on the first amendment tradition, the Supreme court presidents, this seems pretty unambiguous to us. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, so it’s not a completely like black and white issue, but it’s also not a, like, a thorny or divisive first amendment question. Every court that’s looked at, it has said, yeah. Based on our long First Amendment traditions. And in America, you have a right to record the police. Now, Minnesota is in one of the circuits that hasn’t yet ruled on this. So it’s not like black letter law in Minnesota.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. What protections does the public have, if any, when it comes to recording the police or recording law enforcement?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, you do have strong First Amendment protections, especially if you’re engaged in news gathering activity, if you’re monitoring a protest or monitoring police activity. And you don’t have to be an official journalist to do this because there’s no, you know, definition of journalists in the First Amendment. There are very strong protections for news gathering. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since about 2020, some states have passed what are called buffer laws that restrict people from recording the police within about 25 feet when they’re asked to get out of the way. And those have faced a lot of scrutiny from courts. Arizona and Indiana both had buffer laws that were overturned for being unconstitutionally vague. There would be too much of a chilling effect for preventing the public from recording police. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a really fundamental principle and privacy First Amendment and public record law in the United States, is that government officials doing official government work in public don’t have a reasonable expectation of privacy. You know, this is another example of a really sort of watershed moment in policing and law enforcement in America that’s based on recorded video evidence. The same as in Minneapolis with George Floyd in 2020, Rodney King, you know, is these have all had huge impacts on our nation’s history and they’re all based on people recording police activity and documenting it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The founders really believed that we should be able to hold our government accountable. And that includes having access to popular information and knowing what our government is doing. And that’s why recording the police and creating this sort of evidence trail is such a core protected first movement activity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In June last year, dozens of journalists were injured by law enforcement while covering the Los Angeles protests against mass deportation. Many journalists and protesters were tear gassed or shot at with pepper rounds and rubber bullets, or their phones and cameras were smashed while recording. One reporter was shot by a rubber bullet live on air.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Months later, a federal district court issued an injunction blocking the Department of Homeland Security, which includes ICE and Border Patrol from brutalizing journalists, protesters, and legal observers. That means that federal agents aren’t allowed to threaten or assault the press or protesters unless they have probable cause to believe they’ve committed a crime. They also can’t use chemical, projectile, and auditory weapons against protesters, journalists, or legal observers who don’t pose imminent harm to law enforcement. Basically, they can’t tear gas or shoot people just for exercising their First Amendment rights. Enforcement is another story, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were injunctions against that, if I’m remembering correctly. There were a couple of injunctions trying to restrict the sort of tactics that federal law enforcement was using. We also saw the same thing in Chicago. There was injunctions trying to restrict ICE from retaliating against protesters and reporters who were engaged in really clear-cut First Amendment activity. And the judges kind of struggled to enforce that. In Chicago we saw the plaintiffs kept coming back with new motions saying like, here’s more evidence that your injunction is not being followed.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s been really hard to enforce because the Trump administration has, if not an officially stated, a de facto policy that anyone who is opposing them or filming them is subject to intimidation and retaliation. There was a Cato report that came out in December that outlined dozens of instances of people who are being intimidated and threatened by federal agents for engaging in really clearly protected First Amendment activity such as just following from a distance or recording police. In fact, I wrote a story about an Oregon woman who was followed by ICE agents because she was filming them in a parking lot and they followed her after she left and her lawyer shared video with me. She stopped at an intersection and you can see the the agents come up to her window and the first thing they say is ‘Why are you filming us?’ \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I want to say also as well that people who monitor police, reporters, and activists have faced First Amendment retaliation for decades. But what’s really startling and unprecedented here is that we’re hearing this coming from the top of the federal government. That is something that’s quite new, I would say. Secretary Noem was on record in July saying that, you know, violence is anything that threatens them and their safety and she included videotaping federal immigration officers. They’re equating videotaping officers with violence and domestic terrorism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s what DHS Secretary Kristi Noem said during a press conference last summer\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem during July 12, 2025 Press Conference inTampa, Florida].\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…And I will tell you that violence is anything that threatens them and their safety. So it is doxing them. It’s videotaping them where they’re at when they’re out on operations, encouraging other people to come and to throw things, rocks, bottles…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Notice the use of the word doxing here. That’s the act of posting private information about someone to target and harass them, usually like their home address or personal phone number. The Trump administration has equated identifying and publicly naming ICE agents to dox-ing. California recently banned federal officers from wearing masks on duty, with exceptions for medical masks like N95s, wildfire protection, and agents undercover. The ban was supposed to go into effect this month. Here’s state Senator Scott Wiener talking about the ban on Instagram.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Senator Scott Wiener speaking on Instagram ]\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I introduced and passed this law to stop ICE and any other law enforcement from covering their faces and effectively operating as secret police. It is horrifying what federal agents are doing, tearing communities apart, operating in the shadows, not identifying themselves, covering their faces so you don’t even know who you’re dealing with.\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the Trump administration has sued to block the bill, citing threats to federal officers like taunting, online doxing, and stalking. They argue that states like California have no authority to interfere with federal immigration operations, which means that state and local officials can’t enforce the mask ban. So are you allowed to record ICE? Yes, but like we’ve seen with California’s mask ban, the White House has been very opposed to any attempt at identifying federal officers. In fact, they’ve gone as far as trying to prosecute those who record and identify ICE agents. So what does this targeting and retaliation from the administration look like? And how is it holding up in courts? That’s after this break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Time to open a new tab: The legal battle over recording law enforcement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Trump administration is going as far as trying to prosecute people for following and recording ICE. And they’re using this federal statute to threaten those who get in their way. It’s called 18 USC 111. C.J. is going to tell us about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, it’s both a felony and a misdemeanor depending on the severity or why they want to charge it. But it’s for assaulting, impeding, or obstructing a federal law enforcement agent and it’s pretty much what it sounds like. It’s more or less a federal analog of the obstruction laws that you see at your local level where if you, you know, if a police officer is trying to arrest someone and you get in their way and try and pull the person away or physically obstruct the officer, you can get charged with obstruction. But this also, I would mention, obstruction is a classic, what’s known as a contempt of cop charge. It’s something that’s thrown at people when they annoy cops, and the police are looking for something that they can punish them with. But it’s also used frequently for people who are being a real nuisance to police, and that’s what it’s intended for. It’s for assaulting and physically obstructing officers. And it accounts for all federal law enforcement, including immigration.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. How is the administration trying to use this statute specifically to target those who film ICE? Have they had any success?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is, you know, this sort of top-down order is to treat people who are opposing them through, you know, First Amendment or activities of recording or warning other people as violating this statute to sort of broaden this to include non-violent or non-physical means of obstruction. And what’s been really interesting about that is that these prosecutions have faired really poorly compared to federal prosecutors’ usual track record. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Usually when a U.S. Attorney’s office brings a case to a grand jury, they almost always get it. It is extremely rare for federal prosecutors to bring a case to a jury and have them reject it. And most cases that they do bring end in guilty pleas and plea agreements. But what we’ve seen is grand juries refusing cases in Chicago and elsewhere, refusing to indict. And those cases then getting thrown out when body cam footage and other evidence comes to light showing that these actions that people are being charged for aren’t meeting the elements of this crime which requires physically obstructing or assaulting agents and you know by that definition following an officer isn’t obstructing them you know recording them isn’t physically obstructed them even alerting other people to the presence of ICE is not obstructing them. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The law on that is a little more mixed, but there have been courts that have upheld the right to, for example, warn motorists of speed traps ahead or to flash your lights to warn people of cops in the distance. They consider that First Amendment speech as well. So what we’ve seen is a lot of these prosecutions failing at an unprecedented rate. There have been quite a few cases where they’ve charged people with a felony charge. And then when a grand jury refuses to indict them, they are refiled as a misdemeanor, which doesn’t actually require a grand-jury indictment. And some of those cases have pled out guilty after the misdemeanor charge was refiled. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there’s been other cases where the federal prosecutors haven’t even been able to secure a misdemeanor conviction. The most famous case was the sandwich guy in DC, Sean Dunn, who threw a Subway sandwich at a CBP officer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from WUSA 9 newscast] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Customs and Border Patrol agent hit with the sandwich, characterized it as a profanity laced tirade, and he told the jury Dunn threw the sandwich so hard, it exploded against his bulletproof vest, “I could smell the onions and mustard.”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The prosecutors were trying to convince the jury that this officer had a real fear for his safety when he got pelted with a sandwich, and the jury did not agree.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In an investigation published late last year, the Associated Press found that, since May, of the 100 people charged with felony assaults on federal agents, 55 saw their charges reduced to misdemeanors or just outright dismissed. Only 23 pleaded guilty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’ve found that dozens of the cases have kind of fallen apart. That is a really high failure rate for federal prosecutors who nearly, when it comes to these sort of cases, are almost always batting a hundred. So it’s been a, it’s been very strange, I think, for the U.S. Prosecutor’s offices as well, who have had to face judges who are being very, well judges have to be very circumspect in their language, but are questioning these cases pretty harshly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even talking about this top-down almost order, right? JD Vance has made statements about how ICE agents have total immunity. How does that play into this? Like, what can you tell us about how much of the talk of ICE’s immunity can actually hold up against legal challenges?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I asked DHS public affairs office in December if they considered following and recording officers to be obstruction of justice. You know, I wanted to get a straight answer from them. And the office of public affairs sent me a statement attributed to an unnamed spokesperson who said, that sure sounds like obstruction of justice, which, you know, isn’t a super clear answer, but it gives you the mindset. And like I said, that is coming and that is trickling down from the very top of DHS to the line officers who are being told that they have immunity and that anyone who is sort of bothering them is probably violating the statute.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve established that recording law enforcement is a right upheld by federal courts. That’s not stopping ICE agents from continuing to target those who do record them. You had mentioned the woman in Oregon that you covered. What happened there when she was stopped?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She was detained for, I believe, five or six hours. She was taken to a detention facility and detained and eventually released without charges. Last time I checked, they still not filed any charges against her. So, you know, this was, um, can almost be seen as a purely retaliatory or punishment sort of, and that’s really, I think, what this comes down to is a textbook definition of a chilling effect on free speech. When you have these statements from top officials, when you have the vice president basically saying that these agents will have immunity for what they’re doing, it makes everyone who wants to participate and exercise their First Amendment right second guess whether it’s worth it.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I was out driving around in my hometown in December. Um, following ICE and CBP and taking pictures, you know, um, from a distance, but, uh, just seeing what they were doing because I’m a reporter and I had a unambiguous, crystal clear, First Amendment right to do that. But it was still in the back of my head, if these guys decided I was bothering them, they could bust out my car windows. They could detain me. They could pull their guns on me, which is all things that have happened to people for doing the same thing. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was a reporter at 25, that wasn’t as much of a worry, but I have a kid at home, ah, you know, you start doing…the calculus gets a lot harder. And that’s exactly what this sort of policy and what this activity does is make people self-censor under the threat of government retaliation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was this woman who was detained for seven in Oregon. She’s just one of many dozens at this point who have been targeted by ICE. There are all the journalists in Los Angeles who were shot up by rubber bullets and injured. Is there any recourse for victims of retaliation like this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so it is very, very hard to hold federal law enforcement agents accountable for their actions. They do have sovereign immunity from some criminal prosecutions. In federal court, you have to file a lawsuit against the U.S. Government. You actually can’t sue them as individuals. So you basically have to go to court against the US government. And it is a very, very long and hard road to follow to successfully sue the U.S. Government for civil rights deprivations.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The best options, um, are probably more sweeping class action injunctions and sort of broader rulings against the general activity, just because it’s so hard to hold individual officers accountable even on a class action or individual level.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Considering everything we just talked about, what should people know before they consider recording ICE or other law enforcement activities?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What I say you should know is that you do have the First Amendment right to do this. You have the right to record and monitor, and you even have the right to verbally oppose the police. One of the Supreme Court decisions that a lot of circuit courts have looked back on when they’re deciding these sort of questions was a 1987 Supreme Court ruling in a case called Houston v Hill, where they struck down an ordinance that made it unlawful to oppose or interrupt a police officer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Supreme Court Justice William Brennan, Jr. wrote, “The freedom of individuals verbally to oppose or challenge police action without thereby risking arrest is one of the principle characteristics by which we distinguish a free nation from a police state.” And courts they’ll look back to that when they’re deciding things like whether you should be able to yell an obscenity at a police officer or record them. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nAnd like I said, what the administration is trying to do is create a chilling effect here. And what people should know is that they are banking on fear and banking on you not wanting to exercise your First Amendment rights. And what we’re seeing all around the country with these protests and with people coming out and confronting ICE agents and CBP agents more is that it’s not working.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So remember, recording ICE, or any law enforcement, is your constitutional right, but it’s not without risks. We’ll link some resources for staying safe in the show notes. And check out our two-part series, The Surveillance Machine, for a deeper dive on the history of protest surveillance and how it’s used today. Okay, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and our credits music. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "When U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officer Jonathan Ross shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis, it became an instant flashpoint in the ongoing escalation of federal law enforcement violence. It also put a spotlight on the U.S. government’s efforts to prevent people from documenting federal agents in public.In this episode, we dig into a simple but important question: do you have the right to record ICE? Criminal justice reporter C.J. Ciaramella explains how the Trump administration is working to create a chilling effect around filming law enforcement, why legal challenges are intensifying, and how courts are increasingly pushing back.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officer Jonathan Ross shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis, it became an instant flashpoint in the ongoing escalation of federal law enforcement violence. It also put a spotlight on the U.S. government’s efforts to prevent people from documenting federal agents in public.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode, we dig into a simple but important question: do you have the right to record ICE? Criminal justice reporter C.J. Ciaramella explains how the Trump administration is working to create a chilling effect around filming law enforcement, why legal challenges are intensifying, and how courts are increasingly pushing back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5878884828\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://reason.com/people/cj-ciaramella/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">C.J. Ciaramella\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Criminal Justice Reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reason\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://minnesotareformer.com/2026/01/07/ice-officer-fatally-shoots-driver-through-car-window-in-minneapolis/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ICE officer fatally shoots driver through car window in Minneapolis\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Max Nesterak, Madison McVan and Alyssa Chen, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Minnesota Reformer \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://reason.com/2026/01/08/you-have-the-right-to-record-ice/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Trump administration says it’s illegal to record videos of ICE. Here’s what the law says.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — C.J. Ciaramella, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reason\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://reason.com/2025/12/22/dhs-says-recording-or-following-law-enforcement-sure-sounds-like-obstruction-of-justice/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DHS says recording or following law enforcement ‘sure sounds like obstruction of justice’\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — C.J. Ciaramella, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reason\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11871364/recording-the-police-what-to-know-and-how-to-stay-safe-doing-it\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recording the Police: Tips for Safety and Awareness\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Carly Severn and Mina Kim, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://prospect.org/2025/09/09/2025-09-09-dhs-claims-videotaping-ice-raids-is-violence/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DHS Claims Videotaping ICE Raids Is ‘Violence’\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Matthew Cunningham-Cook, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The American Prospect\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2025/11/ice-detains-us-citizen-for-7-hours-after-she-photographed-agents-in-gresham.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ICE detains U.S. citizen for 7 hours after she photographed agents in Oregon\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Yesenia Amaro, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Oregonian\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/ice-immigration-protests-prosecutions-doj-arrests-591f155d50c13756842e033ea23f16d3?link_source=ta_bluesky_link&taid=6943fae5c2e22c00016e74ad&utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=bluesky\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dozens of felony cases crumble in DOJ push to punish protesters\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Michael Biesecker, Jamie Ding, Christine Fernando, Claire Rush, and Ryan J. Foley, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Associated Press \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://time.com/7344924/federal-officers-shooting-immigration-portland-minneapolis-prosecution-immunity/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What Happens When Federal Officers Use Force \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Miranda Jeyaretnam, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TIME \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/justice/2025/12/immigration-mask-ban-new-law/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California is banning masks for federal agents. Here’s why it could lose in court\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nigel Duara, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CalMatters\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just a note, this episode contains references to violence and strong language. Listen with care.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from 50501_Key_Largo Instagram Account]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: If I continue to see you following me around, I’m gonna pull you over and arrest you.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: For what? What law am I breaking?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: You’re impeding one of the investigations, okay?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was an interaction between a Border Patrol officer and a local observer in Key Largo, Florida, posted on Instagram on Monday morning. The officer threatened to arrest the observer for following and filming him, but didn’t say what law they were breaking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from 50501_Key_Largo Instagram Account]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: How am I impeding you?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: I’m not going to argue with you.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: Are you going to shoot me?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: Why would I shoot you?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: Because one of your guys, one of you federal people just shot an innocent woman and murdered her in Minneapolis.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last week, on January 7th, federal immigration and customs enforcement officers shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis, Minnesota. She was 37. The Trump administration has launched an extensive immigration crackdown in Minneapolis singling out the city’s large Somali community. Last week they sent 2,000 federal agents in what ICE Acting Director Todd Lyons described as the largest immigration operation ever.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In response, a lot of citizens have been protesting and following and monitoring ICE and CBP officers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is C.J. Ciaramella, a reporter for Reason magazine who covers criminal justice and civil liberties. He’s been reporting on the Trump administration’s crackdown on those who record or photograph ICE operations. Last Wednesday, Renee Good and her wife had just dropped their six-year-old son off at school when they came across a group of ICE agents. Bystander video shows that Renee’s car was stopped perpendicularly on the road.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And an ICE, uh, a pickup of federal immigration officers stopped in front of her and went up and were shouting at her to…there were some contradictory orders to both leave and get out of her car and started tugging on her car. She started backing up first and then as she was doing that, one of the immigration officers stepped in front her car and she started moving forward and pulling out to leave with the officer in front of her. And as he was stepping around her car, as it was moving towards him, he pulled out his gun and fired three shots and killed her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are several bystander videos that captured different angles of Renee’s last moments and the gruesome aftermath. One shows an officer denying medical assistance for Renee after a bystander identified himself as a doctor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from a video recorded by eyewitness Emily Heller]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Doctor: Can I go check a pulse? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ICE Officer: No! Back up! Now!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Doctor: I’m a physician!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily Heller: Hey, listen here! You just killed my f***ing neighbor!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Videos of the incidents immediately spread online, sparking nationwide outrage. Over the weekend, hundreds of protests gathered across the country, demanding accountability and an end to mass deportations. The Trump administration has tried to paint Renee as an agitator who was stalking and impeding upon ICE operations. On Truth Social, the president said that Renee, “Violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ICE officer, who shot her in self-defense.” But as visual forensic analysis by the New York Times, the Washington Post, and Bellingcat shows, the officer was able to step away from the car and while still standing, fired at least 2 of the 3 shots through the window as the car turned away from him. As ICE operations continue across the country, the Trump administration has escalated retaliating against anyone who follows or records federal officers. This includes journalists, and any civilian just observing ICE. In the last year, ICE and Border Patrol officers have threatened, arrested, and detained those who document their activities or report on their whereabouts. And now, federal agents have appeared to reference the shooting of Renee Good in confrontations with observers, like in this video, which was posted on the r/minneapolis subreddit this week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 1 from r/minnesota Reddit page] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer:This is your warning! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: For what? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Stop f***ing following us! You are impeding operations! This is the United States Federal Government! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: I live over here, I gotta get to my house! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer:This is- this is your warning! Go home!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: Go to church. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Did you not learn from what just happened? Go home! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: Learn what?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or in this video, which was posted on the r/minnesota subreddit days after Renee was killed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 2 from r/minnesota Reddit page] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Have y’all not learned from the past couple of days? Have you not learned?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recorder: Learned what? What’s our lesson here? What do you want us to learn?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Following federal agents.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recorder: Give me my phone back!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In light of all this, many people are asking, are you allowed to record federal agents? And what are your rights when it comes to recording ICE, especially as the Trump administration increasingly tries to target those who do? This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Let’s start with a new tab. Are you allowed to record ice? We’re back with C.J. Ciaramella, who reports on criminal justice and civil liberties for Reason Magazine. He’s going to put this into context for us. ICE activities have been escalating all throughout the past year, but what led up to this moment? And does it feel like a tipping point to you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It really does. This has been sort of the, I don’t want to say logical conclusion because that doesn’t put it in the right light, but over this past summer, we’ve seen escalating rhetoric from the Trump administration about people filming and recording and monitoring ICE and also trying to warn other people about ICE activities. They described this as illegal activity, saying that it’s obstruction of justice or impeding federal immigration officers and they vowed to like, prosecute people who do this. And they also made it clear to these line officers working at CBP and ICE, yeah that they consider this illegal activity. That they consider following around and monitoring these agents to be very confrontational, illegal. There are dozens of videos of ICE and CBP officers threatening to arrest people and pulling them out of the car solely for following and recording them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the main reasons that this incident specifically has exploded is because there are multiple video recordings taken by bystanders that have been shared online, gone viral, you know, just been spread among news outlets. You’ve been reporting on how the Trump administration is trying to make the case that recording ICE officers in public is illegal, like you said. But just to be clear, does the public have the right to record law enforcement and specifically ICE?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I gotta be a little bit nuanced about this because the Supreme Court actually hasn’t put out a ruling saying there’s an unambiguous First Amendment right to film the police. But all of the seven US Federal Circuit Courts that have considered the issue have pretty much said there is a First Amendment right to record the police and observe the police, and they’ve all decided that pretty unambiguously. And this ranges from, you know, the ninth circuit, which is traditionally a pretty liberal leaning court to the fifth circuit, which has a reputation as a more conservative circuit court, you know? The fifth circuit looked at it and said, you know, based on the first amendment tradition, the Supreme court presidents, this seems pretty unambiguous to us. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, so it’s not a completely like black and white issue, but it’s also not a, like, a thorny or divisive first amendment question. Every court that’s looked at, it has said, yeah. Based on our long First Amendment traditions. And in America, you have a right to record the police. Now, Minnesota is in one of the circuits that hasn’t yet ruled on this. So it’s not like black letter law in Minnesota.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. What protections does the public have, if any, when it comes to recording the police or recording law enforcement?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, you do have strong First Amendment protections, especially if you’re engaged in news gathering activity, if you’re monitoring a protest or monitoring police activity. And you don’t have to be an official journalist to do this because there’s no, you know, definition of journalists in the First Amendment. There are very strong protections for news gathering. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since about 2020, some states have passed what are called buffer laws that restrict people from recording the police within about 25 feet when they’re asked to get out of the way. And those have faced a lot of scrutiny from courts. Arizona and Indiana both had buffer laws that were overturned for being unconstitutionally vague. There would be too much of a chilling effect for preventing the public from recording police. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a really fundamental principle and privacy First Amendment and public record law in the United States, is that government officials doing official government work in public don’t have a reasonable expectation of privacy. You know, this is another example of a really sort of watershed moment in policing and law enforcement in America that’s based on recorded video evidence. The same as in Minneapolis with George Floyd in 2020, Rodney King, you know, is these have all had huge impacts on our nation’s history and they’re all based on people recording police activity and documenting it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The founders really believed that we should be able to hold our government accountable. And that includes having access to popular information and knowing what our government is doing. And that’s why recording the police and creating this sort of evidence trail is such a core protected first movement activity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In June last year, dozens of journalists were injured by law enforcement while covering the Los Angeles protests against mass deportation. Many journalists and protesters were tear gassed or shot at with pepper rounds and rubber bullets, or their phones and cameras were smashed while recording. One reporter was shot by a rubber bullet live on air.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Months later, a federal district court issued an injunction blocking the Department of Homeland Security, which includes ICE and Border Patrol from brutalizing journalists, protesters, and legal observers. That means that federal agents aren’t allowed to threaten or assault the press or protesters unless they have probable cause to believe they’ve committed a crime. They also can’t use chemical, projectile, and auditory weapons against protesters, journalists, or legal observers who don’t pose imminent harm to law enforcement. Basically, they can’t tear gas or shoot people just for exercising their First Amendment rights. Enforcement is another story, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were injunctions against that, if I’m remembering correctly. There were a couple of injunctions trying to restrict the sort of tactics that federal law enforcement was using. We also saw the same thing in Chicago. There was injunctions trying to restrict ICE from retaliating against protesters and reporters who were engaged in really clear-cut First Amendment activity. And the judges kind of struggled to enforce that. In Chicago we saw the plaintiffs kept coming back with new motions saying like, here’s more evidence that your injunction is not being followed.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s been really hard to enforce because the Trump administration has, if not an officially stated, a de facto policy that anyone who is opposing them or filming them is subject to intimidation and retaliation. There was a Cato report that came out in December that outlined dozens of instances of people who are being intimidated and threatened by federal agents for engaging in really clearly protected First Amendment activity such as just following from a distance or recording police. In fact, I wrote a story about an Oregon woman who was followed by ICE agents because she was filming them in a parking lot and they followed her after she left and her lawyer shared video with me. She stopped at an intersection and you can see the the agents come up to her window and the first thing they say is ‘Why are you filming us?’ \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I want to say also as well that people who monitor police, reporters, and activists have faced First Amendment retaliation for decades. But what’s really startling and unprecedented here is that we’re hearing this coming from the top of the federal government. That is something that’s quite new, I would say. Secretary Noem was on record in July saying that, you know, violence is anything that threatens them and their safety and she included videotaping federal immigration officers. They’re equating videotaping officers with violence and domestic terrorism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s what DHS Secretary Kristi Noem said during a press conference last summer\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem during July 12, 2025 Press Conference inTampa, Florida].\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…And I will tell you that violence is anything that threatens them and their safety. So it is doxing them. It’s videotaping them where they’re at when they’re out on operations, encouraging other people to come and to throw things, rocks, bottles…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Notice the use of the word doxing here. That’s the act of posting private information about someone to target and harass them, usually like their home address or personal phone number. The Trump administration has equated identifying and publicly naming ICE agents to dox-ing. California recently banned federal officers from wearing masks on duty, with exceptions for medical masks like N95s, wildfire protection, and agents undercover. The ban was supposed to go into effect this month. Here’s state Senator Scott Wiener talking about the ban on Instagram.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Senator Scott Wiener speaking on Instagram ]\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I introduced and passed this law to stop ICE and any other law enforcement from covering their faces and effectively operating as secret police. It is horrifying what federal agents are doing, tearing communities apart, operating in the shadows, not identifying themselves, covering their faces so you don’t even know who you’re dealing with.\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the Trump administration has sued to block the bill, citing threats to federal officers like taunting, online doxing, and stalking. They argue that states like California have no authority to interfere with federal immigration operations, which means that state and local officials can’t enforce the mask ban. So are you allowed to record ICE? Yes, but like we’ve seen with California’s mask ban, the White House has been very opposed to any attempt at identifying federal officers. In fact, they’ve gone as far as trying to prosecute those who record and identify ICE agents. So what does this targeting and retaliation from the administration look like? And how is it holding up in courts? That’s after this break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Time to open a new tab: The legal battle over recording law enforcement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Trump administration is going as far as trying to prosecute people for following and recording ICE. And they’re using this federal statute to threaten those who get in their way. It’s called 18 USC 111. C.J. is going to tell us about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, it’s both a felony and a misdemeanor depending on the severity or why they want to charge it. But it’s for assaulting, impeding, or obstructing a federal law enforcement agent and it’s pretty much what it sounds like. It’s more or less a federal analog of the obstruction laws that you see at your local level where if you, you know, if a police officer is trying to arrest someone and you get in their way and try and pull the person away or physically obstruct the officer, you can get charged with obstruction. But this also, I would mention, obstruction is a classic, what’s known as a contempt of cop charge. It’s something that’s thrown at people when they annoy cops, and the police are looking for something that they can punish them with. But it’s also used frequently for people who are being a real nuisance to police, and that’s what it’s intended for. It’s for assaulting and physically obstructing officers. And it accounts for all federal law enforcement, including immigration.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. How is the administration trying to use this statute specifically to target those who film ICE? Have they had any success?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is, you know, this sort of top-down order is to treat people who are opposing them through, you know, First Amendment or activities of recording or warning other people as violating this statute to sort of broaden this to include non-violent or non-physical means of obstruction. And what’s been really interesting about that is that these prosecutions have faired really poorly compared to federal prosecutors’ usual track record. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Usually when a U.S. Attorney’s office brings a case to a grand jury, they almost always get it. It is extremely rare for federal prosecutors to bring a case to a jury and have them reject it. And most cases that they do bring end in guilty pleas and plea agreements. But what we’ve seen is grand juries refusing cases in Chicago and elsewhere, refusing to indict. And those cases then getting thrown out when body cam footage and other evidence comes to light showing that these actions that people are being charged for aren’t meeting the elements of this crime which requires physically obstructing or assaulting agents and you know by that definition following an officer isn’t obstructing them you know recording them isn’t physically obstructed them even alerting other people to the presence of ICE is not obstructing them. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The law on that is a little more mixed, but there have been courts that have upheld the right to, for example, warn motorists of speed traps ahead or to flash your lights to warn people of cops in the distance. They consider that First Amendment speech as well. So what we’ve seen is a lot of these prosecutions failing at an unprecedented rate. There have been quite a few cases where they’ve charged people with a felony charge. And then when a grand jury refuses to indict them, they are refiled as a misdemeanor, which doesn’t actually require a grand-jury indictment. And some of those cases have pled out guilty after the misdemeanor charge was refiled. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there’s been other cases where the federal prosecutors haven’t even been able to secure a misdemeanor conviction. The most famous case was the sandwich guy in DC, Sean Dunn, who threw a Subway sandwich at a CBP officer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from WUSA 9 newscast] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Customs and Border Patrol agent hit with the sandwich, characterized it as a profanity laced tirade, and he told the jury Dunn threw the sandwich so hard, it exploded against his bulletproof vest, “I could smell the onions and mustard.”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The prosecutors were trying to convince the jury that this officer had a real fear for his safety when he got pelted with a sandwich, and the jury did not agree.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In an investigation published late last year, the Associated Press found that, since May, of the 100 people charged with felony assaults on federal agents, 55 saw their charges reduced to misdemeanors or just outright dismissed. Only 23 pleaded guilty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’ve found that dozens of the cases have kind of fallen apart. That is a really high failure rate for federal prosecutors who nearly, when it comes to these sort of cases, are almost always batting a hundred. So it’s been a, it’s been very strange, I think, for the U.S. Prosecutor’s offices as well, who have had to face judges who are being very, well judges have to be very circumspect in their language, but are questioning these cases pretty harshly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even talking about this top-down almost order, right? JD Vance has made statements about how ICE agents have total immunity. How does that play into this? Like, what can you tell us about how much of the talk of ICE’s immunity can actually hold up against legal challenges?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I asked DHS public affairs office in December if they considered following and recording officers to be obstruction of justice. You know, I wanted to get a straight answer from them. And the office of public affairs sent me a statement attributed to an unnamed spokesperson who said, that sure sounds like obstruction of justice, which, you know, isn’t a super clear answer, but it gives you the mindset. And like I said, that is coming and that is trickling down from the very top of DHS to the line officers who are being told that they have immunity and that anyone who is sort of bothering them is probably violating the statute.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve established that recording law enforcement is a right upheld by federal courts. That’s not stopping ICE agents from continuing to target those who do record them. You had mentioned the woman in Oregon that you covered. What happened there when she was stopped?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She was detained for, I believe, five or six hours. She was taken to a detention facility and detained and eventually released without charges. Last time I checked, they still not filed any charges against her. So, you know, this was, um, can almost be seen as a purely retaliatory or punishment sort of, and that’s really, I think, what this comes down to is a textbook definition of a chilling effect on free speech. When you have these statements from top officials, when you have the vice president basically saying that these agents will have immunity for what they’re doing, it makes everyone who wants to participate and exercise their First Amendment right second guess whether it’s worth it.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I was out driving around in my hometown in December. Um, following ICE and CBP and taking pictures, you know, um, from a distance, but, uh, just seeing what they were doing because I’m a reporter and I had a unambiguous, crystal clear, First Amendment right to do that. But it was still in the back of my head, if these guys decided I was bothering them, they could bust out my car windows. They could detain me. They could pull their guns on me, which is all things that have happened to people for doing the same thing. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was a reporter at 25, that wasn’t as much of a worry, but I have a kid at home, ah, you know, you start doing…the calculus gets a lot harder. And that’s exactly what this sort of policy and what this activity does is make people self-censor under the threat of government retaliation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was this woman who was detained for seven in Oregon. She’s just one of many dozens at this point who have been targeted by ICE. There are all the journalists in Los Angeles who were shot up by rubber bullets and injured. Is there any recourse for victims of retaliation like this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so it is very, very hard to hold federal law enforcement agents accountable for their actions. They do have sovereign immunity from some criminal prosecutions. In federal court, you have to file a lawsuit against the U.S. Government. You actually can’t sue them as individuals. So you basically have to go to court against the US government. And it is a very, very long and hard road to follow to successfully sue the U.S. Government for civil rights deprivations.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The best options, um, are probably more sweeping class action injunctions and sort of broader rulings against the general activity, just because it’s so hard to hold individual officers accountable even on a class action or individual level.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Considering everything we just talked about, what should people know before they consider recording ICE or other law enforcement activities?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What I say you should know is that you do have the First Amendment right to do this. You have the right to record and monitor, and you even have the right to verbally oppose the police. One of the Supreme Court decisions that a lot of circuit courts have looked back on when they’re deciding these sort of questions was a 1987 Supreme Court ruling in a case called Houston v Hill, where they struck down an ordinance that made it unlawful to oppose or interrupt a police officer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Supreme Court Justice William Brennan, Jr. wrote, “The freedom of individuals verbally to oppose or challenge police action without thereby risking arrest is one of the principle characteristics by which we distinguish a free nation from a police state.” And courts they’ll look back to that when they’re deciding things like whether you should be able to yell an obscenity at a police officer or record them. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nAnd like I said, what the administration is trying to do is create a chilling effect here. And what people should know is that they are banking on fear and banking on you not wanting to exercise your First Amendment rights. And what we’re seeing all around the country with these protests and with people coming out and confronting ICE agents and CBP agents more is that it’s not working.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So remember, recording ICE, or any law enforcement, is your constitutional right, but it’s not without risks. We’ll link some resources for staying safe in the show notes. And check out our two-part series, The Surveillance Machine, for a deeper dive on the history of protest surveillance and how it’s used today. Okay, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and our credits music. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Save or Scroll: OpenAI’s Head of Preparedness, Global RAM Shortage, AI Artists, and a Manosphere Antidote",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a holiday installment of Save or Scroll, Morgan and the Close All Tabs team get together to talk over the stories they can’t stop thinking about. From OpenAI’s concerning new job posting, to a major RAM shortage, AI artists on the come up, and an antidote to the Manosphere, they’ve got a lot to chew on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Save or Scroll is our series where we team up with guests for a rapid-fire roundup of internet trends that are filling our feeds right now. At the end of each segment, they’ll decide: is the post just for the group chat, or should we save it for a future episode?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC9668443018\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Morgan Sung, Host of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Egusa, Senior Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Maya Cueva, Producer of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Hambrick, Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/news/850537/sam-altman-openai-head-of-preparedness\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sam Altman is hiring someone to worry about the dangers of AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Terrence O’Brien, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/challenges-of-openai-head-of-preparedness-role-2025-12\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why OpenAI’s $555,000 Head of Preparedness Role May Be Hard to Fill\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Sarah E. Needleman, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Business Insider\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/12/28/nx-s1-5656190/ai-chips-memory-prices-ram\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Memory loss: As AI gobbles up chips, prices for devices may rise\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — John Ruwitch, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NPR\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.techradar.com/pro/why-is-ram-so-expensive-right-now-its-more-complicated-than-you-think\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why is RAM so expensive right now? It’s way more complicated than you think\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Wayne Williams, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TechRadar\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/dougmelville/2025/09/27/al-singer-xania-monet-just-charted-on-billboard-signed-3m-deal-is-this-the-future-of-music/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Singer Xania Monet Just Charted On Billboard, Signed $3 Million Deal. Is This The Future Of Music?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Doug Melville, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forbes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.billboard.com/lists/ai-artists-on-billboard-charts/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How Many AI Artists Have Debuted on Billboard’s Charts?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Xander Zellner, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Billboard\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/01/style/trump-zuckerberg-masculinity.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ‘Manosphere’? It’s Planet Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Joseph Bernstein, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSvjuMEkj0H/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D\">“2024 self interviewing my 2025 self”\u003c/a> — @seanjaye1988, Instagram Reel\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome back to Close All tabs. We’ve been on a break the last few weeks, refreshing, relaxing, touching grass. In my case, being back on the East Coast for the holidays, touching a lot of snow. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend here at Open. As many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives, except today we aren’t opening any tabs. That’s right, to kick off the new year, we’re back with another episode of Save or Scroll. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, what is Save or Scroll? This is a game we play every now and then on close all tabs. We do a lot of deep dives on the show, but sometimes I come across a story that’s fascinating and wild and I’m dying to talk about it with someone, but there isn’t necessarily enough to do an entire episode about it. Or I do a little digging and realize that there’s a lot more to the story and it’s definitely worth a deep dive. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a very special Save or Scroll because joining me is the rest of the close all tabs team. On today’s episode, we have senior editor Chris Egusa,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey there!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> producer Maya Cueva,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi, Morgan!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and editor Chris Hambrick.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hello!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So we have all been offline for the last few weeks, and today we’re gonna catch up with a few different tech and internet stories that may have slipped under the radar during the holiday season. And for this episode, each of the four of us has brought one story that we cannot stop thinking about, that’s haunted us throughout our entire holiday break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as a group, we’re gonna decide to Save or Scroll. If we scroll, that means we’ve talked about it, we’re moving on. If we decide to save, that means we’re bookmarking it and we might dive in deeper in a future episode. And based on the stories we brought today, we’re gonna make a few predictions for the new year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You guys ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ready. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m ready.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, Chris E, you’re up first. What did you bring us today?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So if you want to get paid $555,000 to stop the AI apocalypse, I have good news. Open AI is hiring for a new position: head of preparedness. So get excited.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a bit ominous.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re all launching your applications right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So on December 27th, we were treated to kind of a late Christmas present from Mr. Sam Altman, CEO of OpenAI, which side note, is actually within a walking distance of where we are recording right now at the KQED studios. But yeah, he posted on X that the company is hiring for a head of preparedness.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does this mean? You might ask? Here is a little bit of Sam’s post, he said, “We are hiring a head of preparedness. This is a critical role at an important time. Models are improving quickly and are now capable of many great things, but they’re also starting to present some real challenges. The potential impact of models on mental health was something we saw a preview of in 2025. We are also now seeing models get so good at computer security, they’re beginning to find critical vulnerabilities.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So he goes on to say that this person would be responsible for executing the company’s quote preparedness framework, uh, securing AI models for the release of biological capabilities, which, that definitely sounds ominous.Um, and at the end of the post, he warns that it will be a stressful job and that you’ll jump in immediately. So get those resumes ready. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh God. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can I ask a clarifying question?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Please.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Is this basically like they’re hiring someone to pull the plug…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …if it all goes bad?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Great question. And there’ve been some, some online jokes about that as well. Basically, this is a person who is directly responsible for preventing all of the risks posed by all of this ever advancing AI technology.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are calling it an impossible job because those risks are innumerable and impossible to really predict. Right? And like you mentioned Morgan, immediately, uh, there were jokes about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So some people posted a fake open AI job post from a few years ago that was called, uh, Kill Switch Engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is a couple years ago, people dug up this, this fake post. And, uh, in that post, this fake job post under expectations, it listed know how to unplug things, bonus points, if you can throw a bucket of water on the servers too, just in case. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ah. So, yeah, to your point, Morgan,you could like reduce this idea to someone\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> who just is gonna pull the plug if AI gets too powerful, tries to take over the world. Um, other people called this position chief, fall guy, or Chief Scapegoat Officer, which is very funny to me: the idea that like, they’re hiring one person who can absorb all \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">of the blame for whenever anything goes bad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, I’ll just mention a few things to note on this. Uh, it’s actually not a new position, even though it’s kind of being characterized as that OpenAI has had this position in the past. Um, and it actually has a preparedness team, but the people who occupied the position either kept moving into other departments or leaving the company entirely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s been vacant for a little while, and so they’re hiring a new one. Um, the other thing is that Altman has a history of making really big claims about AI’s power and potential. But critics point to the fact that many of these claims are often just hype. So I will turn it to you all. What do you think, is this a good thing that OpenAI is investing in preparedness or is it more AI doomer hype?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It just seems like right now when AI is getting more and OpenAI specifically is getting more criticized than ever, like they probably want someone for that position before, you know, the 15 or so lawsuits over ChatGPT related deaths happened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, exactly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. So I, I do feel like, okay, it is, you know, like it’s some foresight, you know, like in all seriousness. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually feel like a little bit more comfortable, um, if somebody is thinking about like how to prevent a disaster or mitigate it, or at least have some plan in place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, no, I don’t think it’s like doomsday, like I don’t think it’s over the top to think about, like, getting somebody in the position who could give us some steps to follow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s probably better than not having someone thinking \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> about it when you look at the alternative. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I think this is less of a kill switch engineer and more of a, uh, oh, how do we not get sued again, kind of, kind of position, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Does this make you feel more concerned that they are identifying these potentially huge, sort of like, world changing threats or do you see this as, okay, this is a marketing play, essentially?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I’m definitely terrified that they’re already identifying those positions. It almost seems like it’s both and right, because it seems like they’re doing that too, because they know something bad will happen. But also it seems like they’re trying to cover their bases and protect the company. So it’s hard to say that even if we had, if this position gets filled, is it actually gonna protect us? Who knows? Hard to say, so that’s fair.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I, I feel like I’m on the side of the marketing hype because mm-hmm. Who posts a job and then gets on X and they’re like, Hey, by the way, we’re doing this thing. Look at us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re so ahead of it. Right. We’re, you know, like, think kindly of us or think that we are, you know, thinking of you, the public, when it’s really like, you know, wanting a pat on the back. I feel like that’s….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. yeah,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> ….They’re drawing attention to like, you know, they’re doing good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It, it feels calculated for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Based on the story that you brought us on, OpenAI hiring the head of Preparedness, what is your prediction for this year, Chris E.?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so my prediction for 2026 is that we will not see a doomsday scenario with AI this year. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hopefully\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s my prediction. You know, I could be wrong, but instead I think that AI hype will actually start to peter out and we will see the first ripples of a sort of deflating bubble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, a lot of experts have already pointed out how shaky the actual business case is for AI companies. There’s very little actual return on all the investment, and yet we’ve staked this huge chunk of our economy on the idea that this technology will just keep growing and keep getting better and better. Um, so I think maybe the real head of preparedness should be figuring out how to save our economy when AI doesn’t keep improving.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oof. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Agreed\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s why they’ll get paid $555K a year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sign me up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, team, what do we think? Uh, open eyes, head of preparedness. The AI bubble popping. Do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll save it. I’ll keep an eye on it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I’m gonna also save it. I think this is important to keep an eye on. We don’t know what’s gonna happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think we should save it. Yeah. I think this is a very Close All Tabs, uh, kind of thing. It’s, I, we joke about how often we have to cover AI on the show, it’s like, oh my God, another AI story. But also each one brings a new horror and I think it is worth diving into.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> True.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A new flavor of horror.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. We’re saving OpenAI, uh, head of preparedness, and maybe the bubble popping. That’s a save. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I regret to inform you all that I also have an AI related story for you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh no!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so I am up next and, uh, buckle up. We’re gonna talk about the world RAM shortage, uh, and why I still can’t play Oblivion, Remastered. So if there are any electronic devices on your wishlist for this year, buy them now. Buy them right now because I bought a Steam Deck on Black Friday, after agonizing over it for literally years because I can’t make decisions about big purchases very easily. So I have barely been outside during my break. I have developed a callous on my thumb from playing Hades II. I’m having a great time, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Steam Deck annual winter seal rolls around and I’m filling up my cart. There are great deals. And then I realize, oh, I’m gonna run outta space. And so I ran to Google and searched, uh, best micro SD card for Steam Deck Reddit, uh, as you do, you know, gotta slap on the Reddit. And then I fell down this rabbit hole of panicked posts about the global memory storage shortage, uh, thanks to the AI industry.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Shocking to no one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Shocking to no one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The AI industry is using resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So AI data centers need like an obscene amount of memory chips called RAM, uh, random access memory. And these are the chips that let your laptop like, open multiple programs, uh, without crashing or gaming systems and consoles to run games without lagging. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it’s like, temporary memory at at its most basic. Um, data centers need a lot of RAM and along with graphics cards.They need both of these, uh, technologies to train and operate AI models 24/7. One data center’s ram, uh, capacity can power something like a million laptops all at once. And AI companies right now are buying up the world supply of ram. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what does this have to do with storage? Let me tell you. According to TechRadar, there are three main players that control the whole global market of memory chip production, um, SK Hynix, Samsung, and Micron.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so these giants are also producers of flash memory and like, that’s like the static, like, kind of like a file cabinet, you know. It’s just like a space to dump your files. It’s like SD cards, external hard drives, USB, flash drives, um, all that. So they’re making both, right? They’re making RAM, they’re making the flash memory. They got their hands on everything. And because of the AI boom, these memory chip producers are shifting to producing more RAM, um, specifically for large scale AI centers. And because of this, they’re making less flash memory products and also making less products for consumers in general. They’re, like, deprioritizing consumer production in order to meet the demand for enterprise companies, which make a lot more money. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These memory chip companies are expanding their production, but they’re gonna hit a wall, uh, very quickly in the next year. And so that means that anything electronic is going to skyrocket price-wise: laptops, TVs, consoles. Like, even if you build a PC from scratch, each individual part that you’re buying is going to be more expensive because the major players that create both kinds of memory products are shifting to cater to AI data centers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, let, let me, let me get this straight, Morgan. Um, you’re saying that it’s fiscally responsible for me to buy a Switch 2 this week?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Definitely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Genuinely, yes. It’s not just the tariffs that are driving up prices. It turns out it goes way, way deeper than that.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So amazing how one thing just affects everything, everything else down the line. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Everything.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s wild is that, um, Trend Force did this whole, uh, report on the, the future of consumer electronics, and they predicted that smartphone and laptop RAM will actually decrease over time because of the shortage.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so for example, my 2-year-old iPhone has 8 gigabytes of RAM, and the newest ones go as high as like 12. But because of the shortage, uh, smartphones might actually start at 4 gigabytes, which is what iPhones ran on in like 2017 when like running Snapchat and YouTube at the same time made your phone hot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hmm. So you’re saying we’re, we’re now in a place where smartphones are going to become dumber again? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s our future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, soon you won’t be able to run, uh, YouTube and scroll at the same time on your phone, um, if you don’t have enough RAM. Personally I’m annoyed because I really want to play Oblivion Remastered on my Steam Deck because I have discovered the joy of gaming while lying down. And I can’t do that because I don’t have enough space.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to the team, Morgan\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dreams deferred. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Does this just mean that we’re gonna have to keep buying new electronics all the time because of all the…If they’re making less and less storage or RAM space, like yeah, what does that mean for us as consumers? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s true. We, we used to be able to, the idea of future proofing your purchases, right. You buy something that’s like, good enough to last you for a long time.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now if the stuff you’re buying is getting worse and worse, uh, it’s, it feels like that’s a cycle you don’t want to get into.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, I think this shortage, uh, and the conversation we’re having is kind of like a, a precursor. It’s a little preview of what the future of consuming could look like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For sure. So Morgan, do you have a prediction for 2026?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I don’t know if this is a prediction for 2026, so much as like for the future in general, but I do wonder if games are gonna get smaller, um, because it’s just gonna be really expensive to keep equipping memory if memory is now a precious resource. Also this is less of a prediction and more of a hope, but I really hope that, uh, physical copies of games become more of a thing again. I really miss the days of trading DS cartridges with my siblings, and I think that was really sweet. We should bring that back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A hundred percent. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sounds fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll swap DS cartridges with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you. If we can ever get them back,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m sure, you know, I’m sure we’ll find out like right as this episode airs that we actually can’t make DS cartridges anymore because we don’t have the storage for them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Turns out AI now needs DS cartridges to run. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So my question for all of you, um, now that we’ve discussed the global memory shortage and my inability to keep buying games that I won’t play, uh, is do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think this is gonna roll into a bigger thing.I think save,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah. I, I would say let’s, let’s save it. it feels like this is gonna change consumer electronics going forward. It’s a big deal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, I’ll say save too. What do you think Morgan?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Uh, I wanna save it because I’m annoyed. This is my personal gripe now. Um, and I really want to eventually play Oblivion, Remastered, but I think I’ll have to delete like two games to make room for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. We’re saving. So, so far we’ve got two saves. We’re stacking our slate for 2026.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So now I have a really wild story for you guys. Um,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wait, wait. I’m so sorry, Maya. We legally have to take a quick break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, fine. We’ll get back to it after the break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, we’re back. Maya, it is finally your turn. What did you bring us today? What was the story that has haunted you throughout our break,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. So when I say the phrase AI artists, what do you guys think of?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of nonsensical Christmas music lyrics.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of, uh, it’s always like some guy on Twitter who’s like, Ugh, look at my art that I made using ChatGPT or Gemini or Midjourney. And it’s like, dude, you just typed words. You didn’t make that art.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think of like an imaginary artist creating AI art or something? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, yeah. So AI artists are actually online figures who look like real musicians or actresses, but are actually completely created by AI. So they’re not real humans, they are fake. So in 2025 there were a few AI artists generated. One of them was AI artist, Xania Monet, who’s an R&B artist, and she was actually created by Telisha “Nikki” Jones, who’s a poet. And I have a clip of her that I’ll play right now for you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Xania Monet in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just want to take a moment to say thank you for the love, the support, the videos… \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, I did not like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So it’s really creepy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, thanks. I hate it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t need that from her. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. Um, so it’s really, really creepy because she sounds real. She doesn’t look that real, but she does sound real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And just to clarify, Maya, that was the AI voice that we were hearing right there, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. That was the AI voice of Xania Monet. Um, and so she actually charted on Spotify last year, 2025. Um, and she got a multimillion dollar deal as well, which is just wild. And she’s not real. She’s completely fake. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So also in 2025, there was an artist that was created who was actually an AI actress, and her name is Tilly Norwood. And she was created by former actor Eline Van Der Velden. And now there’s a whole new studio called Tilly-verse to help expand Tilly Norwood. Um, I actually have a clip from an interview with Tilly Norwood, um, on a podcast that we’ll play right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Tilly Norwood in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, I’m Tilly Norwood, the world’s first AI actor. Delighted to meet you. I’m so excited to be on Good Morning Britain. I may look real but there is no need to be afraid of me. I am just here to spice up entertainment and tell stories in a new way. I hope you’ll be seeing more of me.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is shades of “Black Mirror.” I don’t know. I have mixed feelings about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But yeah, so both of those are both AI generated. So we have, um, Xania Monet, who’s the R&B artist who got the multimillion dollar deal, who you first heard from, and then there’s Tilly Norwood. Um, but I wanted to ask all of you, like, first of all, for Xania, do you feel like is it’s ethical to actually sign them to record deals, AI artists? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well that, that is my question and maybe, maybe you can share a little bit on this, Maya, but like, what does it mean to sign an AI artist to a record deal? Like who is signing, who is signing on the dotted line? You know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, so I actually had to look this up because I also was confused. Um, so it looks like Telisha “Nikki” Jones, who is the poet that actually created her, is the one who gets the money from the record deal. Um, and apparently Telisha Jones also writes the lyrics for Xania Monet. Um, so I think that’s how she can kind of make the case that she should be the one to get the money, I guess, for the deal. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That makes sense to me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This reminds me of, do you guys know Lil Miquela?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No. Who’s that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so she is a CGI influencer, or, or I guess her whole thing was being a virtual influencer and she claimed to be AI like back in 2016. But in reality it was just like CGI and like motion capture. Um, and she’s created by this like, marketing team.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, wait, let me see ifI can find a video for you. It’s so weird. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Lil Miquela in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starting this year, I’m committed to making choices that show I care for the planet and sustaining yourself is just as important. That’s why I rely on Liquid IV for self-care. It keeps me feeing good so I can look and do good. That’s the energy I’m bringing into ….\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so that’s Lil Miquela. Um, and her whole thing is being like a CGI influencer, but from what I understand, it’s like a person in a motion capture suit underneath. And they say that they use AI for like digital rendering, but it’s like a person tracking. Um, and like it’s a person’s voice allegedly. Um, and there’s like a marketing team behind her. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it reminded me of that when you mentioned this, but like that was what we just watched was like a Liquid IV ad. And so this it, the CGI influencer has been used to market and like get brand deals for years since 2016. And then it has gotten canceled a couple times because, uh, at one point, I think this year she made a video where she was like, I have leukemia.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was part…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my gosh!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …of a campaign to like raise money for leukemia research, where I think like bone marrow donations. Uh, people have been like weirded out by her for the last decade.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel like the AI actresses that you’re talking about, Maya, or like the, was it Xania Monet? feels like the next step of this where they’ve removed the actual people who are running this virtual girl’s social pages and it’s just generated now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. No, that’s super interesting.That you bring that up. So apparently for Tilly-verse, which is the studio that’s gonna help expand Tilly Norwood, who is the AI actress, they’re claiming that they’re actually gonna be creating jobs. So they would have somebody who’s like running the social media or writing the scripts and the dialogue and things like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But my question is, is like, well, what happens when they can just train AI to do that? So maybe they’ll hire human workers, right? But then eventually they’ll just get replaced as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well they said they’re creating jobs, but they didn’t say if they were human jobs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? They said…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It could be AI jobs\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They claimed that it would be like for humans, but they could easily, like Morgan was saying, with what happened to Lil Miquela that like, they could just be replaced by AI as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And my thing is like, I don’t like being fooled, and so there’s a little bit of comfort already knowing the people behind these people. But like, I worry about down the road when somebody first encounters an AI actress or an ar- AI musician, and we don’t even talk about the person behind it. I’m like, who is this for? Like, okay,these advances are made in order so that humans can go do things that they want to do. Like I think we enjoy making, um, art and acting and songs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMaya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like who is it for?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And like, what are we enjoying exactly.too?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right? What are we enjoying? Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, do, do we just enjoy the thing we see on the screen? Or do we enjoy the idea that there’s intention and artistic endeavor behind it? This also makes me think like in some ways, yes, this is slightly, it’s dystopian and slightly terrifying, but in, in another way, it’s not that different from like, our current sort of model of famous Hollywood actors/celebrity culture.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Cause we already have humans who are kind of fake. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they are like industries of themselves. They have teams behind them, even though we, we see them as, as represented as a single person. But, you know, you think of like any Hollywood A-lister and they’re gonna have an operational team. They’re gonna have a marketing team. They’re gonna have, you know, like probably hundreds of people employed, keeping this one person’s image going. So,like, in a weird way, it’s kind of like reducing that to, its like core-most essence. Of like, we already have fake people in celebrity culture, and this is like the fakest version of that, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. We’re already seeing just their persona riight. What they want us to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s no, there’s no facade about it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re just like, this is fake.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. That’s interesting. Well, I also think about just, I don’t know, maybe people are already, celebrities are already perpetuating these tropes anyways, but I’m just thinking about the tropes that these AI artists might be perpetuating.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like, Xania Monet being a Black R&B artist. And then Tilly Norwood is this white woman and they said that they are depicting a white woman, right, because it’s not real. Um, but their creators already said like, oh, this is how we want them to be presented. Tilly Norwood should kind of come across as this like, girl next door.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? Um, so yeah. I’m just wondering the types of tropes that they would already, that would, they would be perpetuating about like Black and brown artists, about women. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They are kind of by default caricatures, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because they’re not real people. It’s interesting. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. Maya, Xania Monet and Tilly Norwood. What is your prediction for the next year uh, based on what you brought us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So I do feel that these AI artists will make it harder for human artists, um, to be able to book roles or even get record deals because now it seems like anyone can just make a generated artist. I also feel like with the Tilly-verse, which is the studio that’s helping expand Tilly Norwood, um, that they’ll eventually just replace the human workers, that they claim they’re gonna be hiring, with AI.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I feel like that could happen like within the year, um, or everything will pop and these AI will crash, but I don’t think that’s gonna happen within this year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Xania Monet will be the first victim of the AI bubble popping. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’ll be the first to cover it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Okay. Team thoughts. Should we save AI artists for a close all tabs deep dive, or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I gotta be honest. I’m ready to scroll past these AI artists. I don’t want them in my feed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I agree. But I wanna save this because I do feel like I wanna do some kind of story on this later. So I’m gonna say save. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s fair.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m gonna say scroll. I feel like it’s, it’s interesting because it’s new right now, but I’m just like meh, you know, I’ll see how it shakes out. You know,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah, I, I’m sorry, Maya. I’m scrolling because..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, no.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lil Miquela did it first, and I’m waiting, I’m waiting for a little bit for Lil Miquela to feud with one of these fakers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh my God, God. Lil Miquela off the top rope.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well then we gotta save it ‘cause we gotta follow their feud.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know. I, I say save if, we’ll, we’ll come back to it if Lil Miquela weighs in on AI artists.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so last story for the day. Chris H what did you bring us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so I saw this video while I was scrolling Instagram. This user, SeanJaye1988, posted this reel where he stitched together two videos. So one of them was filmed at the end of 2024 where he was asking himself questions. And the second video was filmed at the end of 2025 when he answered those questions posed by his former self.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Did you lose weight?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: 15 lbs, Shawty!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you still driving that car?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Hell naw! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Because that m-r is on like 200,000 miles.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: That m—r said “poof!”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Did you start your podcast?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Absolutely not..\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so these questions were around like his progress on goals that he set for himself. Like, did you move? Are you still at the same job? And at the end of this, he asked himself, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you okay? Do you love yourself?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you okay? Do you love yourself? And it seemed as if he had very much not been okay in 2024, so that’s why his former self was checking in about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in response, the 2025 version, Sean blew air out of his lips and then press them together and turned to the side and his eyes look kind of glassy. And then he finally was like, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Yes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you making sure you’re okay?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: I pray that you are. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: I am. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. That was really sweet.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what I think is really interesting about the video is that, you know, he says yes, but you know, it’s something that he’s looks like he’s still working on, you know? Um, but what I really, um, enjoyed about this is because like, yeah, it’s, you know, somebody posting something that could seem performative. I’m processing this real time thing, you know, like in public, on social media. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’ve seen different versions of like this sort of thing, asking your future self questions. But like, this one had a lot of sincerity and a lot of emotionality and a rare, um, for me, seen moment of vulnerability from a man online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, and so I feel like it’s a counter to this article that came out at the beginning of 2025, from the New York Times, talking about how big the Manosphere was and how like, if you think that it’s only on the fringes, you’re you’re wrong because it’s, it’s right here. It’s Earth. The manosphere is Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s all of this like misogyny and toxic masculinity in American culture and politics. It’s, it’s, it’s right here. Um, so this is one that I, I really thought, you know, was interesting and I would love to see more of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, down with the manosphere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What, what would we call this instead of the, the manosphere?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, the emotion…emotion bonanza\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the feelingsphere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Feelingsphere! I like feelingsphere. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I looked at, uh, some other post on this guy’s account and they all seem very rooted in being vulnerable out loud. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, he’s got posts about his weight. It’s, you know, one where he’s at, uh, a wedding and somehow he got the mic. I think he’s in the wedding party and, and so these real life moments that he is sharing, you know. And I think of that in light of all the podcasters and male bloggers who focus on like sports and gambling and rah-rah red-blooded American male… Like, you know, I hope this guy does start a podcast, um, where he gets like more vulnerable and encourages other guys to, um, kind of beat back this, you know, masculinity that is actually a backlash to feminism, the rise of feminism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s like you said, I, I was really drawn to the authenticity in this. The fact that it… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Same \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …did not, it could have felt so performative and I can imagine what that version of the video looks like and this, it really felt like he was having a conversation earnestly with, with his past self. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, I think that’s hard to do online. Uh, I thought it was really touching.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I thought so too. And I also liked that it felt like a live vision board in a way, or like or not even a vision board.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> More so like, here’s what happened, here’s what we hope where we’re gonna happen, and then we get to see like what actually ended up happening for him 2025.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. There are a lot of things where, you know, people like sit down and like do tactile things \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And pull out and like pen and paper and cut up magazines. But this one is like, hey, if you’re already operating, you know, in the online sphere, if you’ve already got your phone in your hand all the time, like this is like a very, um, low lift way for you to just like document what were the things that were on my mind…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …and like, check in later, so long as you can find the video. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right, right, right. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You gotta be organized.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You know, I, not to be cynical, but when you first sent this video, I was like, oh God, it’s another performative male thing. Like, I don’t know if you remember this, like last year was the year of performative male contests where like guys would put on their baggiest jeans and their, like all their labubus hooked onto it, bring their tote bags and their flowers and their like little Bell Hooks back, like copies to the park and compete as the most performative male.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was kind of like a funny commentary on like how, uh, you know, guys were trying to not be the manosphere guy, like this like soft kind of person who is sensitive and listens to women and reads feminist material. Um, but then, you know, at the core they’re still kind of like players, whatever. And I was expecting that kind of thing, but it was nice to see something more authentic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, I don’t know, maybe that’s me. I’m too cynical about the internet, but I hope, I hope this kind of continues.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Lemme ask a question. Just because I am the only, I guess, male representative in this space, uh, uh, right now on our team.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, that we, you have the manosphere on one side, right? Uh, we all know what that is: the Joe Rogans of the world and the Andrew Tates and all of that. Um, and then you talk about the like performative mail and how that was really a big thing last year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I just wonder like not to be like a male apologist, but like what are men supposed to do? What space are they supposed to occupy? You know, because like, I think you could imagine some men trying to sort of distance themselves from the manosphere stuff and then being called performative.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and so like what, what is the right, uh, in your opinion in 2026, what, what does that look like? Like what is an authentic, like, non-toxic man supposed to present as and supposed to be in the world? Um, that’s not performative.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, when the whole performative male contests, uh, you know, were, when they, those were all taking off across the country. There were so many think pieces about like, how do men act online? Like, oh no. Um, and I think those contests were really like a commentary on how the manosphere and this like archetype of like this, the TikTok soft boy, it’s really like a horseshoe. You know, they’re, they’re a lot closer than you think because they’re performing, uh, they’re performing being woke, but like in public, but then in secret and or in private still mistreating women. And so I think really it’s just being normal to woman online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, it’s the toxic traits are still there at the core.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Just they’re like wrapped up in a tote bag and a labubu.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>All:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Just being normal\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Be genuine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s, it’s possible guys. It’s possible. Just be normal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Chris H., I have to know, based on this not performative male, not manosphere content that you just showed us, what is your prediction for 2026?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. I think that this is gonna be a year where more men feel comfortable being vulnerable publicly online…and sincerely, um, like maybe we’ll see more of these, um, checking in with your past self videos, and hopefully all the men who have, um, repressed these emotions, uh, they start leaking out and they get to release them as a healthier method of, um, being instead of like blowing things up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, team, an antidote to the manosphere. Do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I vote to save this because, you know, we’ve been talking about doing something on the manosphere in general, but I kind of like looking at this, what’s beyond the manosphere? How, how might it be rejected in the next year?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, you know, I am surprising myself because I am on the fence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, I, I like a good internet trend. I hope that this will take off, but I wanna see it, um, sort of in the background. I want it to happen without it going, Hey, look what men are doing.You know? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I can just like be, I took note of that. That’s neat. More of that, please. Scroll.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then you’re back in the performative space,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> More labubus.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Although I do wanna see an antidote to the manosphere. I feel like I would scroll past this personally, but I don’t know Morgan, what you think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, you know, I’ve been scrolling past the manosphere content because I don’t wanna see it. Um, and I don’t wanna platform it. Um, and then this, it’s like, I, I like that it’s happening. I, I think it’s good for humanity but I’m gonna scroll because I don’t wanna make a Not All Men episode. Sorry, Chris.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Crushing. Crushing. I mean, do I need a retort? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, uh, so sorry Chris, we are, Chris E. We are scrolling on men being vulnerable online, but we do want more of it in the world. We do want it, we want it to happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll save it on my, my personal feed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well guys, thanks for joining me for Save or Scroll.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. I’ll see you in a year.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks Morgan. This was super fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Thanks Morgan. This was a lot of fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right, well, that is it for Save or Scroll. We’re keeping tabs on everything that we did save, so don’t be surprised if one of those stories shows up as a deep dive in your feed. We’ll be back next week with more Close All Tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nClose All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Hambrick is our editor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? And if you \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a holiday installment of Save or Scroll, Morgan and the Close All Tabs team get together to talk over the stories they can’t stop thinking about. From OpenAI’s concerning new job posting, to a major RAM shortage, AI artists on the come up, and an antidote to the Manosphere, they’ve got a lot to chew on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Save or Scroll is our series where we team up with guests for a rapid-fire roundup of internet trends that are filling our feeds right now. At the end of each segment, they’ll decide: is the post just for the group chat, or should we save it for a future episode?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC9668443018\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Morgan Sung, Host of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Egusa, Senior Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Maya Cueva, Producer of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Hambrick, Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/news/850537/sam-altman-openai-head-of-preparedness\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sam Altman is hiring someone to worry about the dangers of AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Terrence O’Brien, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/challenges-of-openai-head-of-preparedness-role-2025-12\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why OpenAI’s $555,000 Head of Preparedness Role May Be Hard to Fill\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Sarah E. Needleman, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Business Insider\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/12/28/nx-s1-5656190/ai-chips-memory-prices-ram\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Memory loss: As AI gobbles up chips, prices for devices may rise\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — John Ruwitch, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NPR\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.techradar.com/pro/why-is-ram-so-expensive-right-now-its-more-complicated-than-you-think\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why is RAM so expensive right now? It’s way more complicated than you think\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Wayne Williams, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TechRadar\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/dougmelville/2025/09/27/al-singer-xania-monet-just-charted-on-billboard-signed-3m-deal-is-this-the-future-of-music/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Singer Xania Monet Just Charted On Billboard, Signed $3 Million Deal. Is This The Future Of Music?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Doug Melville, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forbes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.billboard.com/lists/ai-artists-on-billboard-charts/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How Many AI Artists Have Debuted on Billboard’s Charts?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Xander Zellner, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Billboard\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/01/style/trump-zuckerberg-masculinity.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ‘Manosphere’? It’s Planet Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Joseph Bernstein, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSvjuMEkj0H/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D\">“2024 self interviewing my 2025 self”\u003c/a> — @seanjaye1988, Instagram Reel\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome back to Close All tabs. We’ve been on a break the last few weeks, refreshing, relaxing, touching grass. In my case, being back on the East Coast for the holidays, touching a lot of snow. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend here at Open. As many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives, except today we aren’t opening any tabs. That’s right, to kick off the new year, we’re back with another episode of Save or Scroll. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, what is Save or Scroll? This is a game we play every now and then on close all tabs. We do a lot of deep dives on the show, but sometimes I come across a story that’s fascinating and wild and I’m dying to talk about it with someone, but there isn’t necessarily enough to do an entire episode about it. Or I do a little digging and realize that there’s a lot more to the story and it’s definitely worth a deep dive. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a very special Save or Scroll because joining me is the rest of the close all tabs team. On today’s episode, we have senior editor Chris Egusa,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey there!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> producer Maya Cueva,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi, Morgan!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and editor Chris Hambrick.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hello!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So we have all been offline for the last few weeks, and today we’re gonna catch up with a few different tech and internet stories that may have slipped under the radar during the holiday season. And for this episode, each of the four of us has brought one story that we cannot stop thinking about, that’s haunted us throughout our entire holiday break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as a group, we’re gonna decide to Save or Scroll. If we scroll, that means we’ve talked about it, we’re moving on. If we decide to save, that means we’re bookmarking it and we might dive in deeper in a future episode. And based on the stories we brought today, we’re gonna make a few predictions for the new year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You guys ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ready. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m ready.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, Chris E, you’re up first. What did you bring us today?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So if you want to get paid $555,000 to stop the AI apocalypse, I have good news. Open AI is hiring for a new position: head of preparedness. So get excited.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a bit ominous.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re all launching your applications right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So on December 27th, we were treated to kind of a late Christmas present from Mr. Sam Altman, CEO of OpenAI, which side note, is actually within a walking distance of where we are recording right now at the KQED studios. But yeah, he posted on X that the company is hiring for a head of preparedness.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does this mean? You might ask? Here is a little bit of Sam’s post, he said, “We are hiring a head of preparedness. This is a critical role at an important time. Models are improving quickly and are now capable of many great things, but they’re also starting to present some real challenges. The potential impact of models on mental health was something we saw a preview of in 2025. We are also now seeing models get so good at computer security, they’re beginning to find critical vulnerabilities.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So he goes on to say that this person would be responsible for executing the company’s quote preparedness framework, uh, securing AI models for the release of biological capabilities, which, that definitely sounds ominous.Um, and at the end of the post, he warns that it will be a stressful job and that you’ll jump in immediately. So get those resumes ready. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh God. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can I ask a clarifying question?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Please.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Is this basically like they’re hiring someone to pull the plug…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …if it all goes bad?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Great question. And there’ve been some, some online jokes about that as well. Basically, this is a person who is directly responsible for preventing all of the risks posed by all of this ever advancing AI technology.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are calling it an impossible job because those risks are innumerable and impossible to really predict. Right? And like you mentioned Morgan, immediately, uh, there were jokes about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So some people posted a fake open AI job post from a few years ago that was called, uh, Kill Switch Engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is a couple years ago, people dug up this, this fake post. And, uh, in that post, this fake job post under expectations, it listed know how to unplug things, bonus points, if you can throw a bucket of water on the servers too, just in case. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ah. So, yeah, to your point, Morgan,you could like reduce this idea to someone\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> who just is gonna pull the plug if AI gets too powerful, tries to take over the world. Um, other people called this position chief, fall guy, or Chief Scapegoat Officer, which is very funny to me: the idea that like, they’re hiring one person who can absorb all \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">of the blame for whenever anything goes bad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, I’ll just mention a few things to note on this. Uh, it’s actually not a new position, even though it’s kind of being characterized as that OpenAI has had this position in the past. Um, and it actually has a preparedness team, but the people who occupied the position either kept moving into other departments or leaving the company entirely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s been vacant for a little while, and so they’re hiring a new one. Um, the other thing is that Altman has a history of making really big claims about AI’s power and potential. But critics point to the fact that many of these claims are often just hype. So I will turn it to you all. What do you think, is this a good thing that OpenAI is investing in preparedness or is it more AI doomer hype?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It just seems like right now when AI is getting more and OpenAI specifically is getting more criticized than ever, like they probably want someone for that position before, you know, the 15 or so lawsuits over ChatGPT related deaths happened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, exactly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. So I, I do feel like, okay, it is, you know, like it’s some foresight, you know, like in all seriousness. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually feel like a little bit more comfortable, um, if somebody is thinking about like how to prevent a disaster or mitigate it, or at least have some plan in place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, no, I don’t think it’s like doomsday, like I don’t think it’s over the top to think about, like, getting somebody in the position who could give us some steps to follow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s probably better than not having someone thinking \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> about it when you look at the alternative. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I think this is less of a kill switch engineer and more of a, uh, oh, how do we not get sued again, kind of, kind of position, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Does this make you feel more concerned that they are identifying these potentially huge, sort of like, world changing threats or do you see this as, okay, this is a marketing play, essentially?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I’m definitely terrified that they’re already identifying those positions. It almost seems like it’s both and right, because it seems like they’re doing that too, because they know something bad will happen. But also it seems like they’re trying to cover their bases and protect the company. So it’s hard to say that even if we had, if this position gets filled, is it actually gonna protect us? Who knows? Hard to say, so that’s fair.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I, I feel like I’m on the side of the marketing hype because mm-hmm. Who posts a job and then gets on X and they’re like, Hey, by the way, we’re doing this thing. Look at us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re so ahead of it. Right. We’re, you know, like, think kindly of us or think that we are, you know, thinking of you, the public, when it’s really like, you know, wanting a pat on the back. I feel like that’s….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. yeah,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> ….They’re drawing attention to like, you know, they’re doing good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It, it feels calculated for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Based on the story that you brought us on, OpenAI hiring the head of Preparedness, what is your prediction for this year, Chris E.?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so my prediction for 2026 is that we will not see a doomsday scenario with AI this year. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hopefully\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s my prediction. You know, I could be wrong, but instead I think that AI hype will actually start to peter out and we will see the first ripples of a sort of deflating bubble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, a lot of experts have already pointed out how shaky the actual business case is for AI companies. There’s very little actual return on all the investment, and yet we’ve staked this huge chunk of our economy on the idea that this technology will just keep growing and keep getting better and better. Um, so I think maybe the real head of preparedness should be figuring out how to save our economy when AI doesn’t keep improving.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oof. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Agreed\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s why they’ll get paid $555K a year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sign me up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, team, what do we think? Uh, open eyes, head of preparedness. The AI bubble popping. Do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll save it. I’ll keep an eye on it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I’m gonna also save it. I think this is important to keep an eye on. We don’t know what’s gonna happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think we should save it. Yeah. I think this is a very Close All Tabs, uh, kind of thing. It’s, I, we joke about how often we have to cover AI on the show, it’s like, oh my God, another AI story. But also each one brings a new horror and I think it is worth diving into.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> True.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A new flavor of horror.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. We’re saving OpenAI, uh, head of preparedness, and maybe the bubble popping. That’s a save. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I regret to inform you all that I also have an AI related story for you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh no!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so I am up next and, uh, buckle up. We’re gonna talk about the world RAM shortage, uh, and why I still can’t play Oblivion, Remastered. So if there are any electronic devices on your wishlist for this year, buy them now. Buy them right now because I bought a Steam Deck on Black Friday, after agonizing over it for literally years because I can’t make decisions about big purchases very easily. So I have barely been outside during my break. I have developed a callous on my thumb from playing Hades II. I’m having a great time, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Steam Deck annual winter seal rolls around and I’m filling up my cart. There are great deals. And then I realize, oh, I’m gonna run outta space. And so I ran to Google and searched, uh, best micro SD card for Steam Deck Reddit, uh, as you do, you know, gotta slap on the Reddit. And then I fell down this rabbit hole of panicked posts about the global memory storage shortage, uh, thanks to the AI industry.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Shocking to no one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Shocking to no one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The AI industry is using resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So AI data centers need like an obscene amount of memory chips called RAM, uh, random access memory. And these are the chips that let your laptop like, open multiple programs, uh, without crashing or gaming systems and consoles to run games without lagging. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it’s like, temporary memory at at its most basic. Um, data centers need a lot of RAM and along with graphics cards.They need both of these, uh, technologies to train and operate AI models 24/7. One data center’s ram, uh, capacity can power something like a million laptops all at once. And AI companies right now are buying up the world supply of ram. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what does this have to do with storage? Let me tell you. According to TechRadar, there are three main players that control the whole global market of memory chip production, um, SK Hynix, Samsung, and Micron.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so these giants are also producers of flash memory and like, that’s like the static, like, kind of like a file cabinet, you know. It’s just like a space to dump your files. It’s like SD cards, external hard drives, USB, flash drives, um, all that. So they’re making both, right? They’re making RAM, they’re making the flash memory. They got their hands on everything. And because of the AI boom, these memory chip producers are shifting to producing more RAM, um, specifically for large scale AI centers. And because of this, they’re making less flash memory products and also making less products for consumers in general. They’re, like, deprioritizing consumer production in order to meet the demand for enterprise companies, which make a lot more money. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These memory chip companies are expanding their production, but they’re gonna hit a wall, uh, very quickly in the next year. And so that means that anything electronic is going to skyrocket price-wise: laptops, TVs, consoles. Like, even if you build a PC from scratch, each individual part that you’re buying is going to be more expensive because the major players that create both kinds of memory products are shifting to cater to AI data centers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, let, let me, let me get this straight, Morgan. Um, you’re saying that it’s fiscally responsible for me to buy a Switch 2 this week?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Definitely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Genuinely, yes. It’s not just the tariffs that are driving up prices. It turns out it goes way, way deeper than that.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So amazing how one thing just affects everything, everything else down the line. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Everything.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s wild is that, um, Trend Force did this whole, uh, report on the, the future of consumer electronics, and they predicted that smartphone and laptop RAM will actually decrease over time because of the shortage.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so for example, my 2-year-old iPhone has 8 gigabytes of RAM, and the newest ones go as high as like 12. But because of the shortage, uh, smartphones might actually start at 4 gigabytes, which is what iPhones ran on in like 2017 when like running Snapchat and YouTube at the same time made your phone hot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hmm. So you’re saying we’re, we’re now in a place where smartphones are going to become dumber again? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s our future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, soon you won’t be able to run, uh, YouTube and scroll at the same time on your phone, um, if you don’t have enough RAM. Personally I’m annoyed because I really want to play Oblivion Remastered on my Steam Deck because I have discovered the joy of gaming while lying down. And I can’t do that because I don’t have enough space.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to the team, Morgan\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dreams deferred. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Does this just mean that we’re gonna have to keep buying new electronics all the time because of all the…If they’re making less and less storage or RAM space, like yeah, what does that mean for us as consumers? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s true. We, we used to be able to, the idea of future proofing your purchases, right. You buy something that’s like, good enough to last you for a long time.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now if the stuff you’re buying is getting worse and worse, uh, it’s, it feels like that’s a cycle you don’t want to get into.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, I think this shortage, uh, and the conversation we’re having is kind of like a, a precursor. It’s a little preview of what the future of consuming could look like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For sure. So Morgan, do you have a prediction for 2026?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I don’t know if this is a prediction for 2026, so much as like for the future in general, but I do wonder if games are gonna get smaller, um, because it’s just gonna be really expensive to keep equipping memory if memory is now a precious resource. Also this is less of a prediction and more of a hope, but I really hope that, uh, physical copies of games become more of a thing again. I really miss the days of trading DS cartridges with my siblings, and I think that was really sweet. We should bring that back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A hundred percent. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sounds fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll swap DS cartridges with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you. If we can ever get them back,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m sure, you know, I’m sure we’ll find out like right as this episode airs that we actually can’t make DS cartridges anymore because we don’t have the storage for them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Turns out AI now needs DS cartridges to run. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So my question for all of you, um, now that we’ve discussed the global memory shortage and my inability to keep buying games that I won’t play, uh, is do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think this is gonna roll into a bigger thing.I think save,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah. I, I would say let’s, let’s save it. it feels like this is gonna change consumer electronics going forward. It’s a big deal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, I’ll say save too. What do you think Morgan?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Uh, I wanna save it because I’m annoyed. This is my personal gripe now. Um, and I really want to eventually play Oblivion, Remastered, but I think I’ll have to delete like two games to make room for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. We’re saving. So, so far we’ve got two saves. We’re stacking our slate for 2026.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So now I have a really wild story for you guys. Um,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wait, wait. I’m so sorry, Maya. We legally have to take a quick break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, fine. We’ll get back to it after the break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, we’re back. Maya, it is finally your turn. What did you bring us today? What was the story that has haunted you throughout our break,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. So when I say the phrase AI artists, what do you guys think of?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of nonsensical Christmas music lyrics.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of, uh, it’s always like some guy on Twitter who’s like, Ugh, look at my art that I made using ChatGPT or Gemini or Midjourney. And it’s like, dude, you just typed words. You didn’t make that art.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think of like an imaginary artist creating AI art or something? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, yeah. So AI artists are actually online figures who look like real musicians or actresses, but are actually completely created by AI. So they’re not real humans, they are fake. So in 2025 there were a few AI artists generated. One of them was AI artist, Xania Monet, who’s an R&B artist, and she was actually created by Telisha “Nikki” Jones, who’s a poet. And I have a clip of her that I’ll play right now for you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Xania Monet in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just want to take a moment to say thank you for the love, the support, the videos… \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, I did not like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So it’s really creepy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, thanks. I hate it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t need that from her. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. Um, so it’s really, really creepy because she sounds real. She doesn’t look that real, but she does sound real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And just to clarify, Maya, that was the AI voice that we were hearing right there, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. That was the AI voice of Xania Monet. Um, and so she actually charted on Spotify last year, 2025. Um, and she got a multimillion dollar deal as well, which is just wild. And she’s not real. She’s completely fake. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So also in 2025, there was an artist that was created who was actually an AI actress, and her name is Tilly Norwood. And she was created by former actor Eline Van Der Velden. And now there’s a whole new studio called Tilly-verse to help expand Tilly Norwood. Um, I actually have a clip from an interview with Tilly Norwood, um, on a podcast that we’ll play right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Tilly Norwood in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, I’m Tilly Norwood, the world’s first AI actor. Delighted to meet you. I’m so excited to be on Good Morning Britain. I may look real but there is no need to be afraid of me. I am just here to spice up entertainment and tell stories in a new way. I hope you’ll be seeing more of me.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is shades of “Black Mirror.” I don’t know. I have mixed feelings about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But yeah, so both of those are both AI generated. So we have, um, Xania Monet, who’s the R&B artist who got the multimillion dollar deal, who you first heard from, and then there’s Tilly Norwood. Um, but I wanted to ask all of you, like, first of all, for Xania, do you feel like is it’s ethical to actually sign them to record deals, AI artists? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well that, that is my question and maybe, maybe you can share a little bit on this, Maya, but like, what does it mean to sign an AI artist to a record deal? Like who is signing, who is signing on the dotted line? You know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, so I actually had to look this up because I also was confused. Um, so it looks like Telisha “Nikki” Jones, who is the poet that actually created her, is the one who gets the money from the record deal. Um, and apparently Telisha Jones also writes the lyrics for Xania Monet. Um, so I think that’s how she can kind of make the case that she should be the one to get the money, I guess, for the deal. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That makes sense to me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This reminds me of, do you guys know Lil Miquela?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No. Who’s that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so she is a CGI influencer, or, or I guess her whole thing was being a virtual influencer and she claimed to be AI like back in 2016. But in reality it was just like CGI and like motion capture. Um, and she’s created by this like, marketing team.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, wait, let me see ifI can find a video for you. It’s so weird. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Lil Miquela in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starting this year, I’m committed to making choices that show I care for the planet and sustaining yourself is just as important. That’s why I rely on Liquid IV for self-care. It keeps me feeing good so I can look and do good. That’s the energy I’m bringing into ….\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so that’s Lil Miquela. Um, and her whole thing is being like a CGI influencer, but from what I understand, it’s like a person in a motion capture suit underneath. And they say that they use AI for like digital rendering, but it’s like a person tracking. Um, and like it’s a person’s voice allegedly. Um, and there’s like a marketing team behind her. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it reminded me of that when you mentioned this, but like that was what we just watched was like a Liquid IV ad. And so this it, the CGI influencer has been used to market and like get brand deals for years since 2016. And then it has gotten canceled a couple times because, uh, at one point, I think this year she made a video where she was like, I have leukemia.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was part…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my gosh!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …of a campaign to like raise money for leukemia research, where I think like bone marrow donations. Uh, people have been like weirded out by her for the last decade.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel like the AI actresses that you’re talking about, Maya, or like the, was it Xania Monet? feels like the next step of this where they’ve removed the actual people who are running this virtual girl’s social pages and it’s just generated now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. No, that’s super interesting.That you bring that up. So apparently for Tilly-verse, which is the studio that’s gonna help expand Tilly Norwood, who is the AI actress, they’re claiming that they’re actually gonna be creating jobs. So they would have somebody who’s like running the social media or writing the scripts and the dialogue and things like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But my question is, is like, well, what happens when they can just train AI to do that? So maybe they’ll hire human workers, right? But then eventually they’ll just get replaced as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well they said they’re creating jobs, but they didn’t say if they were human jobs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? They said…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It could be AI jobs\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They claimed that it would be like for humans, but they could easily, like Morgan was saying, with what happened to Lil Miquela that like, they could just be replaced by AI as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And my thing is like, I don’t like being fooled, and so there’s a little bit of comfort already knowing the people behind these people. But like, I worry about down the road when somebody first encounters an AI actress or an ar- AI musician, and we don’t even talk about the person behind it. I’m like, who is this for? Like, okay,these advances are made in order so that humans can go do things that they want to do. Like I think we enjoy making, um, art and acting and songs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMaya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like who is it for?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And like, what are we enjoying exactly.too?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right? What are we enjoying? Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, do, do we just enjoy the thing we see on the screen? Or do we enjoy the idea that there’s intention and artistic endeavor behind it? This also makes me think like in some ways, yes, this is slightly, it’s dystopian and slightly terrifying, but in, in another way, it’s not that different from like, our current sort of model of famous Hollywood actors/celebrity culture.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Cause we already have humans who are kind of fake. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they are like industries of themselves. They have teams behind them, even though we, we see them as, as represented as a single person. But, you know, you think of like any Hollywood A-lister and they’re gonna have an operational team. They’re gonna have a marketing team. They’re gonna have, you know, like probably hundreds of people employed, keeping this one person’s image going. So,like, in a weird way, it’s kind of like reducing that to, its like core-most essence. Of like, we already have fake people in celebrity culture, and this is like the fakest version of that, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. We’re already seeing just their persona riight. What they want us to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s no, there’s no facade about it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re just like, this is fake.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. That’s interesting. Well, I also think about just, I don’t know, maybe people are already, celebrities are already perpetuating these tropes anyways, but I’m just thinking about the tropes that these AI artists might be perpetuating.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like, Xania Monet being a Black R&B artist. And then Tilly Norwood is this white woman and they said that they are depicting a white woman, right, because it’s not real. Um, but their creators already said like, oh, this is how we want them to be presented. Tilly Norwood should kind of come across as this like, girl next door.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? Um, so yeah. I’m just wondering the types of tropes that they would already, that would, they would be perpetuating about like Black and brown artists, about women. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They are kind of by default caricatures, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because they’re not real people. It’s interesting. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. Maya, Xania Monet and Tilly Norwood. What is your prediction for the next year uh, based on what you brought us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So I do feel that these AI artists will make it harder for human artists, um, to be able to book roles or even get record deals because now it seems like anyone can just make a generated artist. I also feel like with the Tilly-verse, which is the studio that’s helping expand Tilly Norwood, um, that they’ll eventually just replace the human workers, that they claim they’re gonna be hiring, with AI.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I feel like that could happen like within the year, um, or everything will pop and these AI will crash, but I don’t think that’s gonna happen within this year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Xania Monet will be the first victim of the AI bubble popping. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’ll be the first to cover it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Okay. Team thoughts. Should we save AI artists for a close all tabs deep dive, or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I gotta be honest. I’m ready to scroll past these AI artists. I don’t want them in my feed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I agree. But I wanna save this because I do feel like I wanna do some kind of story on this later. So I’m gonna say save. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s fair.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m gonna say scroll. I feel like it’s, it’s interesting because it’s new right now, but I’m just like meh, you know, I’ll see how it shakes out. You know,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah, I, I’m sorry, Maya. I’m scrolling because..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, no.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lil Miquela did it first, and I’m waiting, I’m waiting for a little bit for Lil Miquela to feud with one of these fakers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh my God, God. Lil Miquela off the top rope.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well then we gotta save it ‘cause we gotta follow their feud.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know. I, I say save if, we’ll, we’ll come back to it if Lil Miquela weighs in on AI artists.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so last story for the day. Chris H what did you bring us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so I saw this video while I was scrolling Instagram. This user, SeanJaye1988, posted this reel where he stitched together two videos. So one of them was filmed at the end of 2024 where he was asking himself questions. And the second video was filmed at the end of 2025 when he answered those questions posed by his former self.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Did you lose weight?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: 15 lbs, Shawty!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you still driving that car?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Hell naw! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Because that m-r is on like 200,000 miles.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: That m—r said “poof!”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Did you start your podcast?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Absolutely not..\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so these questions were around like his progress on goals that he set for himself. Like, did you move? Are you still at the same job? And at the end of this, he asked himself, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you okay? Do you love yourself?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you okay? Do you love yourself? And it seemed as if he had very much not been okay in 2024, so that’s why his former self was checking in about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in response, the 2025 version, Sean blew air out of his lips and then press them together and turned to the side and his eyes look kind of glassy. And then he finally was like, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Yes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you making sure you’re okay?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: I pray that you are. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: I am. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. That was really sweet.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what I think is really interesting about the video is that, you know, he says yes, but you know, it’s something that he’s looks like he’s still working on, you know? Um, but what I really, um, enjoyed about this is because like, yeah, it’s, you know, somebody posting something that could seem performative. I’m processing this real time thing, you know, like in public, on social media. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’ve seen different versions of like this sort of thing, asking your future self questions. But like, this one had a lot of sincerity and a lot of emotionality and a rare, um, for me, seen moment of vulnerability from a man online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, and so I feel like it’s a counter to this article that came out at the beginning of 2025, from the New York Times, talking about how big the Manosphere was and how like, if you think that it’s only on the fringes, you’re you’re wrong because it’s, it’s right here. It’s Earth. The manosphere is Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s all of this like misogyny and toxic masculinity in American culture and politics. It’s, it’s, it’s right here. Um, so this is one that I, I really thought, you know, was interesting and I would love to see more of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, down with the manosphere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What, what would we call this instead of the, the manosphere?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, the emotion…emotion bonanza\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the feelingsphere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Feelingsphere! I like feelingsphere. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I looked at, uh, some other post on this guy’s account and they all seem very rooted in being vulnerable out loud. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, he’s got posts about his weight. It’s, you know, one where he’s at, uh, a wedding and somehow he got the mic. I think he’s in the wedding party and, and so these real life moments that he is sharing, you know. And I think of that in light of all the podcasters and male bloggers who focus on like sports and gambling and rah-rah red-blooded American male… Like, you know, I hope this guy does start a podcast, um, where he gets like more vulnerable and encourages other guys to, um, kind of beat back this, you know, masculinity that is actually a backlash to feminism, the rise of feminism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s like you said, I, I was really drawn to the authenticity in this. The fact that it… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Same \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …did not, it could have felt so performative and I can imagine what that version of the video looks like and this, it really felt like he was having a conversation earnestly with, with his past self. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, I think that’s hard to do online. Uh, I thought it was really touching.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I thought so too. And I also liked that it felt like a live vision board in a way, or like or not even a vision board.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> More so like, here’s what happened, here’s what we hope where we’re gonna happen, and then we get to see like what actually ended up happening for him 2025.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. There are a lot of things where, you know, people like sit down and like do tactile things \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And pull out and like pen and paper and cut up magazines. But this one is like, hey, if you’re already operating, you know, in the online sphere, if you’ve already got your phone in your hand all the time, like this is like a very, um, low lift way for you to just like document what were the things that were on my mind…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …and like, check in later, so long as you can find the video. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right, right, right. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You gotta be organized.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You know, I, not to be cynical, but when you first sent this video, I was like, oh God, it’s another performative male thing. Like, I don’t know if you remember this, like last year was the year of performative male contests where like guys would put on their baggiest jeans and their, like all their labubus hooked onto it, bring their tote bags and their flowers and their like little Bell Hooks back, like copies to the park and compete as the most performative male.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was kind of like a funny commentary on like how, uh, you know, guys were trying to not be the manosphere guy, like this like soft kind of person who is sensitive and listens to women and reads feminist material. Um, but then, you know, at the core they’re still kind of like players, whatever. And I was expecting that kind of thing, but it was nice to see something more authentic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, I don’t know, maybe that’s me. I’m too cynical about the internet, but I hope, I hope this kind of continues.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Lemme ask a question. Just because I am the only, I guess, male representative in this space, uh, uh, right now on our team.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, that we, you have the manosphere on one side, right? Uh, we all know what that is: the Joe Rogans of the world and the Andrew Tates and all of that. Um, and then you talk about the like performative mail and how that was really a big thing last year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I just wonder like not to be like a male apologist, but like what are men supposed to do? What space are they supposed to occupy? You know, because like, I think you could imagine some men trying to sort of distance themselves from the manosphere stuff and then being called performative.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and so like what, what is the right, uh, in your opinion in 2026, what, what does that look like? Like what is an authentic, like, non-toxic man supposed to present as and supposed to be in the world? Um, that’s not performative.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, when the whole performative male contests, uh, you know, were, when they, those were all taking off across the country. There were so many think pieces about like, how do men act online? Like, oh no. Um, and I think those contests were really like a commentary on how the manosphere and this like archetype of like this, the TikTok soft boy, it’s really like a horseshoe. You know, they’re, they’re a lot closer than you think because they’re performing, uh, they’re performing being woke, but like in public, but then in secret and or in private still mistreating women. And so I think really it’s just being normal to woman online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, it’s the toxic traits are still there at the core.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Just they’re like wrapped up in a tote bag and a labubu.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>All:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Just being normal\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Be genuine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s, it’s possible guys. It’s possible. Just be normal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Chris H., I have to know, based on this not performative male, not manosphere content that you just showed us, what is your prediction for 2026?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. I think that this is gonna be a year where more men feel comfortable being vulnerable publicly online…and sincerely, um, like maybe we’ll see more of these, um, checking in with your past self videos, and hopefully all the men who have, um, repressed these emotions, uh, they start leaking out and they get to release them as a healthier method of, um, being instead of like blowing things up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, team, an antidote to the manosphere. Do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I vote to save this because, you know, we’ve been talking about doing something on the manosphere in general, but I kind of like looking at this, what’s beyond the manosphere? How, how might it be rejected in the next year?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, you know, I am surprising myself because I am on the fence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, I, I like a good internet trend. I hope that this will take off, but I wanna see it, um, sort of in the background. I want it to happen without it going, Hey, look what men are doing.You know? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I can just like be, I took note of that. That’s neat. More of that, please. Scroll.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then you’re back in the performative space,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> More labubus.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Although I do wanna see an antidote to the manosphere. I feel like I would scroll past this personally, but I don’t know Morgan, what you think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, you know, I’ve been scrolling past the manosphere content because I don’t wanna see it. Um, and I don’t wanna platform it. Um, and then this, it’s like, I, I like that it’s happening. I, I think it’s good for humanity but I’m gonna scroll because I don’t wanna make a Not All Men episode. Sorry, Chris.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Crushing. Crushing. I mean, do I need a retort? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, uh, so sorry Chris, we are, Chris E. We are scrolling on men being vulnerable online, but we do want more of it in the world. We do want it, we want it to happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll save it on my, my personal feed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well guys, thanks for joining me for Save or Scroll.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. I’ll see you in a year.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks Morgan. This was super fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Thanks Morgan. This was a lot of fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right, well, that is it for Save or Scroll. We’re keeping tabs on everything that we did save, so don’t be surprised if one of those stories shows up as a deep dive in your feed. We’ll be back next week with more Close All Tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nClose All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Hambrick is our editor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? And if you \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "death-robotaxis-and-a-cat-named-kitkat",
"title": "Death, Robotaxis, and a Cat Named KitKat",
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"headTitle": "Death, Robotaxis, and a Cat Named KitKat | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When KitKat, a beloved bodega cat, was killed by a Waymo in San Francisco in late October of this year, the incident quickly went viral. It ignited grief and outrage. It also renewed scrutiny of autonomous vehicles. But in a city where hundreds of animals are hit by vehicles each year, why did this incident — and this particular cat — hit such a nerve? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We hear from Oscar Palma, the first reporter on the scene, about what unfolded the night KitKat was killed. Then, Mission Local managing editor Joe Eskenazi and KQED reporter Sydney Johnson explore the limits of autonomous vehicles and why one cat’s death resonated so deeply in a rapidly gentrifying San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5106693547\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/sjohnson\">Sydney Johnson\u003c/a>, reporter at KQED \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/author/oscarp/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar Palma\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, reporter at Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/joe-eskenazi/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joe Eskenazi\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, managing editor at Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/2025/10/kitkat-mission-liquor-store-mascot-and-16th-st-ambassador-killed-on-monday/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat, liquor store mascot and ‘16th St. ambassador,’ killed — allegedly by Waymo\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Oscar Palma, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12062777/san-francisco-supervisor-calls-for-robotaxi-reform-after-waymo-kills-neighborhood-cat\">San Francisco Supervisor Calls for Robotaxi Reform After Waymo Kills Neighborhood Cat \u003c/a>\u003ci>— Sydney Johnson, \u003ci>KQED\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/05/us/waymo-kit-kat-san-francisco.html\">How Kit Kat Was Killed: Video Shows What a Waymo Couldn’t See \u003c/a>— Heather Knight, \u003ci>The New York Times \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/12/30/1222083720/driverless-cars-gm-cruise-waymo-san-francisco-accidents\">Driverless car startup Cruise’s no good, terrible year\u003c/a> — Dara Kerr, \u003ci>NPR\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2024/11/14/cruise-fine-investigation-dragging-robotaxi/\">Cruise admits lying to feds about dragging woman in San Francisco\u003c/a> — Kevin Truong, \u003ci>The San Francisco Standard\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/2025/12/waymo-confirms-its-car-hit-dog-in-western-addition/\">Waymo hits dog in S.F. weeks after killing Mission bodega cat\u003c/a> — Kelly Waldron, \u003ci>Mission Local\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kron4.com/news/technology-ai/dog-hit-by-waymo-in-sf-put-down-by-family-after-suffering-severe-pelvic-trauma/\">Dog hit by Waymo in SF put down by family after suffering ‘severe pelvic trauma’\u003c/a> — Alex Baker, \u003ci>KRON4\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/business/2025/11/24/the-self-driving-taxi-revolution-begins-at-last\">The self-driving taxi revolution begins at last\u003c/a> — \u003ci>The Economist \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Crowd Chanting “KitKat! KitKat!” ]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last month, KQED reporter Sydney Johnson covered an event in her neighborhood, that was part memorial service, part rally, in San Francisco’s Mission District. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dozens of residents gathered in front of Randa’s Market to remember KitKat, the store’s beloved 9-year-old tabby cat. KitKat was more than a bodega cat — he was known as the Mayor of 16th street. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There were dozens of people there, you know, chitchatting. uh, many of them lived in the neighborhood and were giving each other hugs and, you know, talking about memories that they had of walking by the market after a late night and petting KitKat or, you know, maybe on their way to work and, and giving him a little scratch, uh, when they popped in for a drink in the morning.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s death was particularly devastating for the neighborhood, because it wasn’t old age, or sickness, or even human cruelty that killed him. It was a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s the autonomous rideshare service, also known as a robotaxi.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’d say the vibe of this event was, you know, both. Mournful and, and somber. but also really angry and, and focused.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat was struck and killed in late October, and in the days after, locals mourned him by turning the tree in front of Randa’s Market into a makeshift shrine. Someone had attached a framed photo of KitKat to the tree, and others adorned the frame with flowers and a cat-sized crown. The base of the tree was overflowing with candles, bouquets, handwritten messages, and of course, cat treats. People even scattered KitKat’s namesake candy around the shrine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the time the rally happened a week later, grief had become anger. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But our local supervisor, you know, took some of that anger and outrage and. Really just said, this is a moment where we have to think about these technologies that are being deployed all around us \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s San Francisco Supervisor Jackie Fielder at the rally. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Jackie Fielder at Rally]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The future of autonomous vehicles should be decided by people, not tech, oligarchs and their politicians. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience Member: Yes!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jackie Fielder: Thank you all so much and rest in peace, KitKat. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s death sparked nationwide outrage. He’s become the face of resistance to robotaxis, AI, and the tech industry as a whole. In death, he’s become a viral sensation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Australia News]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a new social justice movement in San Francisco, sparked by the death of a beloved neighborhood cat that was killed by a driverless car.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Inside Edition] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now fans of the adored feline are taking to social media demanding hashtag justice for Kit Kat. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Tiktok]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are mourning a true pillar of the community and who they call the mayor of 16th Street,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo, meanwhile, recently announced its expansion across California. The company has plans to deploy its robotaxis in San Diego, Sacramento, and lots in between. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it kind of became, you know, more than just this cat who died. This is actually now something where people who have been, you know, nervous or uneasy about autonomous vehicles, uh, really had a moment where they were saying, Hey, let’s actually think about how we can avoid this kind of tragedy, uh, especially if it could get even worse in the future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo says its autonomous vehicles are safer than human drivers — at least, they have a lower crash rate. But these cars aren’t infallible. KitKat may be the most viral victim of a robotaxi crash, but he’s not the only one. His death has raised some major concerns about safety, especially as Waymo and other robotaxi companies vie to compete with human-driven rideshares. The loss of this little bodega cat might have sparked a movement … but can these giant tech companies really be reined in? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymos, and robotaxis as a whole, have been pretty controversial since they started hitting streets in 2020. While robotaxi supporters praise the convenience and supposed safety of self-driving cars, detractors have real concerns. They threaten jobs, they disrupt traffic, they can’t make the same decisions that a human driver can, which makes them a nuisance at best and at worst, a public safety hazard. Plus, they represent the tech industry’s rapid encroachment on local communities. Like we covered in one of our very first episodes of this show, it’s what makes Waymos so easy to vandalize: they’re a physical, tangible outlet for this collective anxiety and rage against Silicon Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Los Angeles, Dodgers fans celebrated their team’s World Series win by spray painting and smashing Waymos.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Videos of the vandalized cars went viral, with captions like “Justice for KitKat” and “Revenge for the bodega cat.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So why did this particular incident kick off such a firestorm? To unpack that, we need to return to the night KitKat was killed. What do we know, and what don’t we know, about what happened? Time to open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX typing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happened to KitKat? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Oscar Palma, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Every time I go to the Roxy, I would always make a point to stop by and then say hi to Kit Kat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Oscar Palma, a reporter at Mission Local, a news site that covers San Francisco. He was one of the first journalists to break the news of KitKat’s death. The Roxie is a local theater that shows indie and arthouse films. This area is a bustling social hub — there are bars, restaurants, comedy clubs and KitKat lived in the heart of it, in the corner store right next to the Roxie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People were laughing and saying we call him the boss because he was checking on everyone, making sure that everything was working.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the night of the incident, KitKat was doing what he did best: sauntering up and down the street, greeting bar patrons.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was Monday night. I believe it was 11:40 pm and two witnesses who came up to me and they say, “Hey, we saw everything that happened.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They came out of the bar, and so they saw the Waymo was picking up some passengers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> While the Waymo idled at the curb, KitKat darted under the hood, settling in front of the car’s front tire. A bystander noticed the cat, and rushed over to lure him out. She recounted the night in an interview with the New York Times. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Meg Brigman in TikTok Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I bent down, his ears were back. He looked very stressed. I said, “KitKat, come here, come here.” Being so close to the car, I didn’t expect it to drive away.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar said that KitKat stood in front of the tire for about seven seconds, before he got spooked and retreated further under the car. The Waymo didn’t appear to sense KitKat, or the person crouched in front of the car. Instead, as surveillance footage obtained by the New York Times shows, the Waymo pulled forward. Here’s Oscar again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so he ran over, um, half of his body. And so Kit Kat, um, made it on its own back to the sidewalk. But, um, our witnesses saw everything and they describe a very awful sight to see. Uh, pretty much seeing the last moment of KitKat being alive, and they say that the Waymo never really stopped.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat dragged himself to the sidewalk, but was gravely injured and spitting blood. A bartender called KitKat’s owner and rushed the cat to a nearby animal hospital, where he died.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar said that Mission Local requested a copy of Waymo’s footage from the accident, but the company didn’t respond. Here’s Joe Eskenazi, managing editor at Mission Local. He joined us for the conversation with Oscar.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So clearly, you know, the witnesses told Oscar that the cat had been idling in front of the car for seven seconds. Waymo simply said, the cat darted underneath the car. Both of those things can be true, but by omitting the first part, you’re not telling the full story. So, you know, presumably it’s all on film.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo touts its safety record as significantly better than human drivers. The company reported that throughout June 2025, Waymos had 80% fewer injury-causing crashes. But autonomous vehicles aren’t able to replicate human thinking and reasoning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For their story, Mission Local spoke with several experts on autonomous vehicles.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s the problem, is that human beings have what’s known as object permanence. When you hide your face from a baby, you know the baby is surprised to see that you can take your \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">fa\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hand away and, and your face is still there. But you know, children who are even very young understand that your face doesn’t disappear. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo cars don’t know that. Waymo cars don’t have the computational power, as amazing as they are, to know that the cat that, uh, was in front of the car for seven seconds and then walked under the car where there are not sensors is still a factor. You can’t really have the sensors on the bottom of the car because they get dirtied up so quickly. If you’ve ever touched the tires on your car, they’re really dirty, so they get dirtied up so quickly that you can’t really have sensors there. So, you know, these cars are susceptible to small objects like this being underneath the car.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happened to KitKat is not a one-off incident. Earlier this month, just weeks after a Waymo killed KitKat, another Waymo ran over an unleashed dog in San Francisco, about ten minutes from where KitKat was struck and killed. The dog’s owners decided to put him down due to severe pelvic injuries. Waymo reportedly offered to assist with the dog’s medical expenses, and offered to cover the cost of adopting a new pet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People can say that human beings don’t drive as well as these vehicles. But we can also say that we’re seeing a pattern here of the autonomous vehicles being susceptible to small objects underneath them or even large objects underneath them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A similar incident happened with Cruise just a few years ago. If this is your first time hearing about Cruise, it’s probably because the company shut down last year.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cruise was the robotaxi service owned by General Motors. They were actually the first company to receive California’s Driverless Deployment Permit, in 2022. They had a modest fleet, a couple hundred cars in San Francisco, and planned to expand to other cities. They were actually bigger than Waymo back then. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Until, in 2023, when one of Cruise’s driverless cars hit a pedestrian. Instead of stopping, the car ran her over and continued driving, dragging her for about 20 feet until it finally stopped at a curb , still on top of the pedestrian. She was critically injured in the crash. The California DMV revoked Cruise’s license and ordered the company to suspend operations in the state. That was in late 2023 and Waymo opened to the public in California in 2024. But KitKat’s death rehashes the same concerns that people had over Cruise. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These incidents are, you know, kind of like, uh, a broad daylight shooting in a suburban neighborhood. It’s something that is unusual. We have seen that the cars are not infallible and what’s worse there, there are holes in the technology. Not knowing there’s a person, or in this case, a small animal under your car, strikes me as something that you could improve on. It strikes me as a safety hazard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Waymo’s been facing a bit of a PR crisis over KitKat’s death. It doesn’t help that on the same day of the accident, just hours before KitKat was fatally struck by a Waymo, the company’s co-CEO Tekedra Mawakana appeared on TechCrunch’s Disrupt stage. This exchange went viral: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from TechCrunch’s Disrupt stage]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kirsten Korosec: Will society accept a death potentially caused by a robot? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Takedra Mawakana: I think that society will, I think the challenge for us is making sure that society has a high enough bar on safety that companies are held to. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, after those comments, the company faced immense backlash when news of KitKat’s death broke. Waymo made a statement four days after KitKat died. They apologized and said they’d make a donation to a local animal rights organization in KitKat’s honor. But skepticism about the safety risks of autonomous technology has only continued to build. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So those are all things to be concerned about, regardless of how many cats are struck by human drivers every day. And regardless of how safe Waymo is, by and large. Uh, frankly, I have to tell you, I’ve been more than a little disappointed by the simplistic whataboutism of people who simply wanna shrug their shoulders and say ‘They’re safer than humans. What do you want?’ I think that it could do better. I think that both the corporation and the vehicles could do better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it turns out a lot of other people feel the same way.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What sparks anger and movements is not always what you think it is. In this case, yes, a cat was run over, which happens all the time, every day. But you know, this strikes me as being, uh, a tipping point type situation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This backlash is coming at a time when Waymo is really expanding. In parts of the Bay Area and Southern California, they’re even allowed on freeways. Last month, amid the KitKat backlash, Waymo launched in Miami, with plans to roll out its cars in ten more cities over the next year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s clear there’s a lot of buzz around Waymos. But the critics are gaining some steam, thanks to the tragedy that befell KitKat. And that brings us back to the rally, in front of Randa’s Market, a week after KitKat was killed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Crowd Chanting “KitKat, KitKat, KitKat”]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how are organizers, advocates, and politicians using the momentum from this incident to push back against the ever-expanding reach of self-driving car companies?\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a new tab … but first, a quick break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok we’re back. Let’s open a new tab.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX keyboard sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat the tech martyr\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">About a week after KitKat’s death, San Francisco Supervisor Jackie Fielder hosted the memorial rally for KitKat, in front of the corner store he’d called home for years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Memorial Rally for KitKat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Supervisor Jackie Fielder: Local communities deserve a say over our streets and over the technologies that affect us. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Supervisor Fielder was one of several speakers at the makeshift podium. An officer from the local Teamsters chapter raised concerns about autonomous vehicles taking human jobs. A public transit advocate questioned why the city was investing so heavily in robotaxis, while San Francisco’s trains and buses face a huge funding deficit. And a few spoke out about the safety issues. They came from different backgrounds, but shared the same point: why didn’t their community get a say in allowing Waymos?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s how Justin Dole, a bar owner and president of the organization Small Business Forward, put it when it was his turn to speak at the rally: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Memorial Rally for KitKat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003ci>Justin Dole: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that’s why people have been so profoundly disturbed by KitKat’s death. The mayor of this space, as he was known, was taken from us by a technology that none of us asked for and crucially, to the point of this resolution, none of us consented to. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And that’s at the heart of a new legislative push from Supervisor Fielder. KQED reporter Sydney Johnson, who we heard from at the top of the episode, has been reporting on the rideshare industry here in California. She actually lives in the Mission — KitKat’s home turf. Sydney’s going to walk us through this legislative battle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There have been no shortage of, you know, efforts in Sacramento to try and carve out laws around robotaxis, which is this really relatively new technology and, and area of law also. And a lot of those have faced, you know, lobbying and have just had a pretty difficult time getting through the legislature.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the rally, our local supervisor, Jackie Fielder, along with other community and labor leaders were calling on state lawmakers to revisit legislation that was actually proposed last year, but failed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sydney’s talking about SB-915, a California senate bill that would have allowed local cities to vote on whether to allow robotaxis on their streets. Supporters said that it gives residents more agency. Critics of the bill said that it would make rides between different towns or municipalities an absolute nightmare.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the biggest, uh, points of opposition to that piece of legislation was that it would create this, you know, really messy patchwork of different policies where maybe you have a robo taxi that can get you around one tiny city, but you can’t actually get to your destination, which is two towns over because this city in the middle voted against it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So that ultimately failed. It did not get the support it needed to pass. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">H\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">owever, there was still a lot of interest in finding a way to still provide some, you know, democratic framework for this technology, which currently for robotaxi companies, they only need to receive permits from the state level in order to operate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they’ve received that for multiple cities and California and a few other places around the country. But these lawmakers who were supporting, uh, this law last year and, and now Jackie Fielder who’s asking lawmakers to revisit it, wanna see the effort not completely die since it didn’t work around city to city regulation, but are hoping to kind of broaden that a little bit at looking at the county level. So having the county of San Francisco or the county of Alameda, you know, these various kind of larger jurisdictions, voters there can decide whether robo taxis can operate on their streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As a city supervisor, Jackie Fielder can’t introduce state legislation herself, but she’s still using this moment to shine a spotlight on the issue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung in tape:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you talk about how lawmakers and public transit advocates are using this momentum from this cat’s death to push for new action around Waymo’s and other Robotaxis? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s interesting about this story and about Kit Kat is it seems to have gotten bigger than California, and certainly bigger than San Francisco where this happened. Um. There were stories about KitKat in the Washington Post, in the New York Times. We were seeing stories on CNN about this cat who was killed by a Waymo and just the heartbreak that came as a result of that. And so local lawmakers here in San Francisco really latched onto that. You know, we, we see this with all different types of legislation when there’s a viral moment and a lawmaker might try to attach some sort of policy idea to that moment and, and, you know, kind of ride some of the energy and life that that story has via that virality.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and we certainly saw that here with KitKat and how supervisor Jackie Fielder said, Hey, we need to start talking about this again before things get worse. But, you know, some tragedy has already happened here. And voters, at least who were showing up to this rally, uh, were pretty open about the fact that they wanted to see some sort of either restrictions or at least have the option to vote on whether Waymo’s can operate and, and roam the streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, It still remains to be seen if lawmakers in Sacramento are going to pick this up. Um, but certainly here there’s been some, uh, support bubbling for it. I think that it has really just become a symbol for so many different things. Whether it’s concerns about AI taking jobs or safety, or sustainability with transit. You know, I think a lot of people have been able to impress their message onto KitKat’s death.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These critiques of automated technology have been around for decades. But it’s only recently that they’ve taken a hold in mainstream, public conversation as autonomous vehicles advance and spread across the country. Waymo may be leading the race, but competitors are sprinting to cash in on the robotaxi wars. Uber, Zoox, Nvdia, Tesla, and like, every car manufacturer are all investing in and testing and launching their own versions of a driverless ride service.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joe, the managing editor at Mission Local, says KitKat became a flashpoint for these larger tensions playing out in San Francisco and beyond.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Just on the base level, this, what you’re describing here is a proxy war between the technology companies and the Teamsters unions. And so you can basically see, you know, which politicians are more aligned with the big money tech companies. And Waymo is owned by Google, which, you know, uh, draws a lot of water in this town to use the Big Lebowski line.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, they’re, they are, they are big players, you know, with, with no small amount of lobbying money and no small amount of interest in this state and in this county San Francisco. Is it possible that in the future this legislation could be adopted? I get the sad feeling that something terrible needs to happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s Oscar, the Mission Local reporter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, this is something that I, I, I think about just in my everyday life, um, like a cyclist usually has to die for the city to build the proper infrastructure, um, in a section of the city. And it’s, it’s sad that we have to get to that point to, to see the changes that a lot of us want to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So clearly, KitKat has become a symbol of something bigger — let’s talk about what his death means. How about one last tab? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX keyboard typing] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s legacy \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This month, Randa’s Market welcomed a new bodega cat: Coco, a white six-month-old kitten, with a black nose and ink-tipped ears. She was a gift, from a neighbor to the store’s owner. But KitKat hasn’t been forgotten — if anything, he’s remembered as a folk hero, who represented a version of San Francisco that doesn’t exist anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, talking to people who lived on 16th Street, talking to bartenders around there, you know, people who just feel like their community has been changing, you know, for decades really, but especially in the last few years it’s felt like so much has really accelerated and just seeing this clash of this hyper new technology. These like, you know, sleek driverless cars, quite literally crush a bodega cat is just such a stark image of seeing, you know, this sort of San Francisco that wants to resist all the ways that technology is now quite literally displacing people, animals, you know, a, a city that was once affordable to artists and creatives and teachers and, you know, working class folks.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This whole story really kind of characterized I think some of that disappointment and sadness that people have about having no say or no control over the quote unquote progress that’s happening around them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, knowing that, there’s a real ironic twist to this story. KitKat, the adorable face of resistance to encroaching tech, is now also a meme coin. And yes for the uninitiated, that’s a cryptocurrency thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So now you know there is an altar on 16th Street for KitKat, but he will forever be immortalized on the blockchain as a crypto coin also.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KITKATCOIN launched without the knowledge of KitKat’s actual family, but the store owner’s son has since taken over. He says he donated the first $10,000 of proceeds to an animal rights group. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I believe that it hit its peak on Halloween, which was just a few days after KitKat’s death. Um, but pretty shortly after that the value of this crypto coin just plummeted. Uh, which if you’ve followed these meme coins before is a pretty typical story. But I think with this, you know, it really. Just sort of epitomizes the virality of this story and how it took on a life of its own online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, there’s KitKat the tech martyr and KitKat the meme coin, immortalized on the blockchain. In the Mission, locals just remember KitKat the bodega cat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think people would remember him first as a friend, uh, second as a member of that community. I think KitKat encompassed everything that this, like one block of resistance,in the mission, um, against, um, waves of gentrification. I always think about this block in a very romantic old school San Francisco way. You have this like feeling of like people mourning this loss together and this like very, um, deep connection that everyone had with each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, like I went to report the next night. Uh, and I went to Delirium and people were taking shots for KitKat. You know, like Delirium is right next to the liquor store. if you had been there, you would’ve seen the mood in the bar that night. Everyone was really quiet. Everyone was really sad, and people were taking shots for KitKat left and \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So pour one out for KitKat. We’d usually close all these tabs, but today? Let’s leave his open a little longer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And by the way — Close All Tabs is taking a break for the holidays. We’ll see you in the new year, with brand new deep dives! For now, we’re wrapping up this year — in honor of our friend KitKat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, and edited by Chris Egusa.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva, Chris Hambrick is our editor. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Also, we want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or TikTok at “close all tabs.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "When KitKat, a beloved bodega cat, was killed by a Waymo in San Francisco in late October of this year, the incident quickly went viral. It ignited grief and outrage. It also renewed scrutiny of autonomous vehicles. But in a city where hundreds of animals are hit by vehicles each year, why did this incident — and this particular cat — hit such a nerve? We hear from Oscar Palma, the first reporter on the scene, about what unfolded the night KitKat was killed. Then, Mission Local managing editor Joe Eskenazi and KQED reporter Sydney Johnson explore the limits of autonomous vehicles and why one cat’s death resonated so deeply in a rapidly gentrifying San Francisco.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When KitKat, a beloved bodega cat, was killed by a Waymo in San Francisco in late October of this year, the incident quickly went viral. It ignited grief and outrage. It also renewed scrutiny of autonomous vehicles. But in a city where hundreds of animals are hit by vehicles each year, why did this incident — and this particular cat — hit such a nerve? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We hear from Oscar Palma, the first reporter on the scene, about what unfolded the night KitKat was killed. Then, Mission Local managing editor Joe Eskenazi and KQED reporter Sydney Johnson explore the limits of autonomous vehicles and why one cat’s death resonated so deeply in a rapidly gentrifying San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5106693547\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/sjohnson\">Sydney Johnson\u003c/a>, reporter at KQED \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/author/oscarp/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar Palma\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, reporter at Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/joe-eskenazi/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joe Eskenazi\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, managing editor at Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/2025/10/kitkat-mission-liquor-store-mascot-and-16th-st-ambassador-killed-on-monday/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat, liquor store mascot and ‘16th St. ambassador,’ killed — allegedly by Waymo\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Oscar Palma, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12062777/san-francisco-supervisor-calls-for-robotaxi-reform-after-waymo-kills-neighborhood-cat\">San Francisco Supervisor Calls for Robotaxi Reform After Waymo Kills Neighborhood Cat \u003c/a>\u003ci>— Sydney Johnson, \u003ci>KQED\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/05/us/waymo-kit-kat-san-francisco.html\">How Kit Kat Was Killed: Video Shows What a Waymo Couldn’t See \u003c/a>— Heather Knight, \u003ci>The New York Times \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/12/30/1222083720/driverless-cars-gm-cruise-waymo-san-francisco-accidents\">Driverless car startup Cruise’s no good, terrible year\u003c/a> — Dara Kerr, \u003ci>NPR\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2024/11/14/cruise-fine-investigation-dragging-robotaxi/\">Cruise admits lying to feds about dragging woman in San Francisco\u003c/a> — Kevin Truong, \u003ci>The San Francisco Standard\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/2025/12/waymo-confirms-its-car-hit-dog-in-western-addition/\">Waymo hits dog in S.F. weeks after killing Mission bodega cat\u003c/a> — Kelly Waldron, \u003ci>Mission Local\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kron4.com/news/technology-ai/dog-hit-by-waymo-in-sf-put-down-by-family-after-suffering-severe-pelvic-trauma/\">Dog hit by Waymo in SF put down by family after suffering ‘severe pelvic trauma’\u003c/a> — Alex Baker, \u003ci>KRON4\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/business/2025/11/24/the-self-driving-taxi-revolution-begins-at-last\">The self-driving taxi revolution begins at last\u003c/a> — \u003ci>The Economist \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Crowd Chanting “KitKat! KitKat!” ]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last month, KQED reporter Sydney Johnson covered an event in her neighborhood, that was part memorial service, part rally, in San Francisco’s Mission District. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dozens of residents gathered in front of Randa’s Market to remember KitKat, the store’s beloved 9-year-old tabby cat. KitKat was more than a bodega cat — he was known as the Mayor of 16th street. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There were dozens of people there, you know, chitchatting. uh, many of them lived in the neighborhood and were giving each other hugs and, you know, talking about memories that they had of walking by the market after a late night and petting KitKat or, you know, maybe on their way to work and, and giving him a little scratch, uh, when they popped in for a drink in the morning.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s death was particularly devastating for the neighborhood, because it wasn’t old age, or sickness, or even human cruelty that killed him. It was a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s the autonomous rideshare service, also known as a robotaxi.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’d say the vibe of this event was, you know, both. Mournful and, and somber. but also really angry and, and focused.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat was struck and killed in late October, and in the days after, locals mourned him by turning the tree in front of Randa’s Market into a makeshift shrine. Someone had attached a framed photo of KitKat to the tree, and others adorned the frame with flowers and a cat-sized crown. The base of the tree was overflowing with candles, bouquets, handwritten messages, and of course, cat treats. People even scattered KitKat’s namesake candy around the shrine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the time the rally happened a week later, grief had become anger. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But our local supervisor, you know, took some of that anger and outrage and. Really just said, this is a moment where we have to think about these technologies that are being deployed all around us \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s San Francisco Supervisor Jackie Fielder at the rally. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Jackie Fielder at Rally]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The future of autonomous vehicles should be decided by people, not tech, oligarchs and their politicians. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience Member: Yes!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jackie Fielder: Thank you all so much and rest in peace, KitKat. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s death sparked nationwide outrage. He’s become the face of resistance to robotaxis, AI, and the tech industry as a whole. In death, he’s become a viral sensation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Australia News]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a new social justice movement in San Francisco, sparked by the death of a beloved neighborhood cat that was killed by a driverless car.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Inside Edition] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now fans of the adored feline are taking to social media demanding hashtag justice for Kit Kat. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Tiktok]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are mourning a true pillar of the community and who they call the mayor of 16th Street,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo, meanwhile, recently announced its expansion across California. The company has plans to deploy its robotaxis in San Diego, Sacramento, and lots in between. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it kind of became, you know, more than just this cat who died. This is actually now something where people who have been, you know, nervous or uneasy about autonomous vehicles, uh, really had a moment where they were saying, Hey, let’s actually think about how we can avoid this kind of tragedy, uh, especially if it could get even worse in the future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo says its autonomous vehicles are safer than human drivers — at least, they have a lower crash rate. But these cars aren’t infallible. KitKat may be the most viral victim of a robotaxi crash, but he’s not the only one. His death has raised some major concerns about safety, especially as Waymo and other robotaxi companies vie to compete with human-driven rideshares. The loss of this little bodega cat might have sparked a movement … but can these giant tech companies really be reined in? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymos, and robotaxis as a whole, have been pretty controversial since they started hitting streets in 2020. While robotaxi supporters praise the convenience and supposed safety of self-driving cars, detractors have real concerns. They threaten jobs, they disrupt traffic, they can’t make the same decisions that a human driver can, which makes them a nuisance at best and at worst, a public safety hazard. Plus, they represent the tech industry’s rapid encroachment on local communities. Like we covered in one of our very first episodes of this show, it’s what makes Waymos so easy to vandalize: they’re a physical, tangible outlet for this collective anxiety and rage against Silicon Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Los Angeles, Dodgers fans celebrated their team’s World Series win by spray painting and smashing Waymos.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Videos of the vandalized cars went viral, with captions like “Justice for KitKat” and “Revenge for the bodega cat.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So why did this particular incident kick off such a firestorm? To unpack that, we need to return to the night KitKat was killed. What do we know, and what don’t we know, about what happened? Time to open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX typing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happened to KitKat? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Oscar Palma, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Every time I go to the Roxy, I would always make a point to stop by and then say hi to Kit Kat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Oscar Palma, a reporter at Mission Local, a news site that covers San Francisco. He was one of the first journalists to break the news of KitKat’s death. The Roxie is a local theater that shows indie and arthouse films. This area is a bustling social hub — there are bars, restaurants, comedy clubs and KitKat lived in the heart of it, in the corner store right next to the Roxie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People were laughing and saying we call him the boss because he was checking on everyone, making sure that everything was working.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the night of the incident, KitKat was doing what he did best: sauntering up and down the street, greeting bar patrons.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was Monday night. I believe it was 11:40 pm and two witnesses who came up to me and they say, “Hey, we saw everything that happened.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They came out of the bar, and so they saw the Waymo was picking up some passengers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> While the Waymo idled at the curb, KitKat darted under the hood, settling in front of the car’s front tire. A bystander noticed the cat, and rushed over to lure him out. She recounted the night in an interview with the New York Times. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Meg Brigman in TikTok Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I bent down, his ears were back. He looked very stressed. I said, “KitKat, come here, come here.” Being so close to the car, I didn’t expect it to drive away.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar said that KitKat stood in front of the tire for about seven seconds, before he got spooked and retreated further under the car. The Waymo didn’t appear to sense KitKat, or the person crouched in front of the car. Instead, as surveillance footage obtained by the New York Times shows, the Waymo pulled forward. Here’s Oscar again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so he ran over, um, half of his body. And so Kit Kat, um, made it on its own back to the sidewalk. But, um, our witnesses saw everything and they describe a very awful sight to see. Uh, pretty much seeing the last moment of KitKat being alive, and they say that the Waymo never really stopped.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat dragged himself to the sidewalk, but was gravely injured and spitting blood. A bartender called KitKat’s owner and rushed the cat to a nearby animal hospital, where he died.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar said that Mission Local requested a copy of Waymo’s footage from the accident, but the company didn’t respond. Here’s Joe Eskenazi, managing editor at Mission Local. He joined us for the conversation with Oscar.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So clearly, you know, the witnesses told Oscar that the cat had been idling in front of the car for seven seconds. Waymo simply said, the cat darted underneath the car. Both of those things can be true, but by omitting the first part, you’re not telling the full story. So, you know, presumably it’s all on film.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo touts its safety record as significantly better than human drivers. The company reported that throughout June 2025, Waymos had 80% fewer injury-causing crashes. But autonomous vehicles aren’t able to replicate human thinking and reasoning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For their story, Mission Local spoke with several experts on autonomous vehicles.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s the problem, is that human beings have what’s known as object permanence. When you hide your face from a baby, you know the baby is surprised to see that you can take your \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">fa\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hand away and, and your face is still there. But you know, children who are even very young understand that your face doesn’t disappear. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo cars don’t know that. Waymo cars don’t have the computational power, as amazing as they are, to know that the cat that, uh, was in front of the car for seven seconds and then walked under the car where there are not sensors is still a factor. You can’t really have the sensors on the bottom of the car because they get dirtied up so quickly. If you’ve ever touched the tires on your car, they’re really dirty, so they get dirtied up so quickly that you can’t really have sensors there. So, you know, these cars are susceptible to small objects like this being underneath the car.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happened to KitKat is not a one-off incident. Earlier this month, just weeks after a Waymo killed KitKat, another Waymo ran over an unleashed dog in San Francisco, about ten minutes from where KitKat was struck and killed. The dog’s owners decided to put him down due to severe pelvic injuries. Waymo reportedly offered to assist with the dog’s medical expenses, and offered to cover the cost of adopting a new pet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People can say that human beings don’t drive as well as these vehicles. But we can also say that we’re seeing a pattern here of the autonomous vehicles being susceptible to small objects underneath them or even large objects underneath them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A similar incident happened with Cruise just a few years ago. If this is your first time hearing about Cruise, it’s probably because the company shut down last year.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cruise was the robotaxi service owned by General Motors. They were actually the first company to receive California’s Driverless Deployment Permit, in 2022. They had a modest fleet, a couple hundred cars in San Francisco, and planned to expand to other cities. They were actually bigger than Waymo back then. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Until, in 2023, when one of Cruise’s driverless cars hit a pedestrian. Instead of stopping, the car ran her over and continued driving, dragging her for about 20 feet until it finally stopped at a curb , still on top of the pedestrian. She was critically injured in the crash. The California DMV revoked Cruise’s license and ordered the company to suspend operations in the state. That was in late 2023 and Waymo opened to the public in California in 2024. But KitKat’s death rehashes the same concerns that people had over Cruise. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These incidents are, you know, kind of like, uh, a broad daylight shooting in a suburban neighborhood. It’s something that is unusual. We have seen that the cars are not infallible and what’s worse there, there are holes in the technology. Not knowing there’s a person, or in this case, a small animal under your car, strikes me as something that you could improve on. It strikes me as a safety hazard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Waymo’s been facing a bit of a PR crisis over KitKat’s death. It doesn’t help that on the same day of the accident, just hours before KitKat was fatally struck by a Waymo, the company’s co-CEO Tekedra Mawakana appeared on TechCrunch’s Disrupt stage. This exchange went viral: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from TechCrunch’s Disrupt stage]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kirsten Korosec: Will society accept a death potentially caused by a robot? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Takedra Mawakana: I think that society will, I think the challenge for us is making sure that society has a high enough bar on safety that companies are held to. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, after those comments, the company faced immense backlash when news of KitKat’s death broke. Waymo made a statement four days after KitKat died. They apologized and said they’d make a donation to a local animal rights organization in KitKat’s honor. But skepticism about the safety risks of autonomous technology has only continued to build. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So those are all things to be concerned about, regardless of how many cats are struck by human drivers every day. And regardless of how safe Waymo is, by and large. Uh, frankly, I have to tell you, I’ve been more than a little disappointed by the simplistic whataboutism of people who simply wanna shrug their shoulders and say ‘They’re safer than humans. What do you want?’ I think that it could do better. I think that both the corporation and the vehicles could do better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it turns out a lot of other people feel the same way.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What sparks anger and movements is not always what you think it is. In this case, yes, a cat was run over, which happens all the time, every day. But you know, this strikes me as being, uh, a tipping point type situation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This backlash is coming at a time when Waymo is really expanding. In parts of the Bay Area and Southern California, they’re even allowed on freeways. Last month, amid the KitKat backlash, Waymo launched in Miami, with plans to roll out its cars in ten more cities over the next year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s clear there’s a lot of buzz around Waymos. But the critics are gaining some steam, thanks to the tragedy that befell KitKat. And that brings us back to the rally, in front of Randa’s Market, a week after KitKat was killed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Crowd Chanting “KitKat, KitKat, KitKat”]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how are organizers, advocates, and politicians using the momentum from this incident to push back against the ever-expanding reach of self-driving car companies?\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a new tab … but first, a quick break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok we’re back. Let’s open a new tab.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX keyboard sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat the tech martyr\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">About a week after KitKat’s death, San Francisco Supervisor Jackie Fielder hosted the memorial rally for KitKat, in front of the corner store he’d called home for years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Memorial Rally for KitKat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Supervisor Jackie Fielder: Local communities deserve a say over our streets and over the technologies that affect us. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Supervisor Fielder was one of several speakers at the makeshift podium. An officer from the local Teamsters chapter raised concerns about autonomous vehicles taking human jobs. A public transit advocate questioned why the city was investing so heavily in robotaxis, while San Francisco’s trains and buses face a huge funding deficit. And a few spoke out about the safety issues. They came from different backgrounds, but shared the same point: why didn’t their community get a say in allowing Waymos?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s how Justin Dole, a bar owner and president of the organization Small Business Forward, put it when it was his turn to speak at the rally: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Memorial Rally for KitKat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003ci>Justin Dole: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that’s why people have been so profoundly disturbed by KitKat’s death. The mayor of this space, as he was known, was taken from us by a technology that none of us asked for and crucially, to the point of this resolution, none of us consented to. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And that’s at the heart of a new legislative push from Supervisor Fielder. KQED reporter Sydney Johnson, who we heard from at the top of the episode, has been reporting on the rideshare industry here in California. She actually lives in the Mission — KitKat’s home turf. Sydney’s going to walk us through this legislative battle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There have been no shortage of, you know, efforts in Sacramento to try and carve out laws around robotaxis, which is this really relatively new technology and, and area of law also. And a lot of those have faced, you know, lobbying and have just had a pretty difficult time getting through the legislature.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the rally, our local supervisor, Jackie Fielder, along with other community and labor leaders were calling on state lawmakers to revisit legislation that was actually proposed last year, but failed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sydney’s talking about SB-915, a California senate bill that would have allowed local cities to vote on whether to allow robotaxis on their streets. Supporters said that it gives residents more agency. Critics of the bill said that it would make rides between different towns or municipalities an absolute nightmare.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the biggest, uh, points of opposition to that piece of legislation was that it would create this, you know, really messy patchwork of different policies where maybe you have a robo taxi that can get you around one tiny city, but you can’t actually get to your destination, which is two towns over because this city in the middle voted against it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So that ultimately failed. It did not get the support it needed to pass. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">H\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">owever, there was still a lot of interest in finding a way to still provide some, you know, democratic framework for this technology, which currently for robotaxi companies, they only need to receive permits from the state level in order to operate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they’ve received that for multiple cities and California and a few other places around the country. But these lawmakers who were supporting, uh, this law last year and, and now Jackie Fielder who’s asking lawmakers to revisit it, wanna see the effort not completely die since it didn’t work around city to city regulation, but are hoping to kind of broaden that a little bit at looking at the county level. So having the county of San Francisco or the county of Alameda, you know, these various kind of larger jurisdictions, voters there can decide whether robo taxis can operate on their streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As a city supervisor, Jackie Fielder can’t introduce state legislation herself, but she’s still using this moment to shine a spotlight on the issue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung in tape:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you talk about how lawmakers and public transit advocates are using this momentum from this cat’s death to push for new action around Waymo’s and other Robotaxis? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s interesting about this story and about Kit Kat is it seems to have gotten bigger than California, and certainly bigger than San Francisco where this happened. Um. There were stories about KitKat in the Washington Post, in the New York Times. We were seeing stories on CNN about this cat who was killed by a Waymo and just the heartbreak that came as a result of that. And so local lawmakers here in San Francisco really latched onto that. You know, we, we see this with all different types of legislation when there’s a viral moment and a lawmaker might try to attach some sort of policy idea to that moment and, and, you know, kind of ride some of the energy and life that that story has via that virality.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and we certainly saw that here with KitKat and how supervisor Jackie Fielder said, Hey, we need to start talking about this again before things get worse. But, you know, some tragedy has already happened here. And voters, at least who were showing up to this rally, uh, were pretty open about the fact that they wanted to see some sort of either restrictions or at least have the option to vote on whether Waymo’s can operate and, and roam the streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, It still remains to be seen if lawmakers in Sacramento are going to pick this up. Um, but certainly here there’s been some, uh, support bubbling for it. I think that it has really just become a symbol for so many different things. Whether it’s concerns about AI taking jobs or safety, or sustainability with transit. You know, I think a lot of people have been able to impress their message onto KitKat’s death.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These critiques of automated technology have been around for decades. But it’s only recently that they’ve taken a hold in mainstream, public conversation as autonomous vehicles advance and spread across the country. Waymo may be leading the race, but competitors are sprinting to cash in on the robotaxi wars. Uber, Zoox, Nvdia, Tesla, and like, every car manufacturer are all investing in and testing and launching their own versions of a driverless ride service.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joe, the managing editor at Mission Local, says KitKat became a flashpoint for these larger tensions playing out in San Francisco and beyond.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Just on the base level, this, what you’re describing here is a proxy war between the technology companies and the Teamsters unions. And so you can basically see, you know, which politicians are more aligned with the big money tech companies. And Waymo is owned by Google, which, you know, uh, draws a lot of water in this town to use the Big Lebowski line.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, they’re, they are, they are big players, you know, with, with no small amount of lobbying money and no small amount of interest in this state and in this county San Francisco. Is it possible that in the future this legislation could be adopted? I get the sad feeling that something terrible needs to happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s Oscar, the Mission Local reporter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, this is something that I, I, I think about just in my everyday life, um, like a cyclist usually has to die for the city to build the proper infrastructure, um, in a section of the city. And it’s, it’s sad that we have to get to that point to, to see the changes that a lot of us want to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So clearly, KitKat has become a symbol of something bigger — let’s talk about what his death means. How about one last tab? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX keyboard typing] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s legacy \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This month, Randa’s Market welcomed a new bodega cat: Coco, a white six-month-old kitten, with a black nose and ink-tipped ears. She was a gift, from a neighbor to the store’s owner. But KitKat hasn’t been forgotten — if anything, he’s remembered as a folk hero, who represented a version of San Francisco that doesn’t exist anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, talking to people who lived on 16th Street, talking to bartenders around there, you know, people who just feel like their community has been changing, you know, for decades really, but especially in the last few years it’s felt like so much has really accelerated and just seeing this clash of this hyper new technology. These like, you know, sleek driverless cars, quite literally crush a bodega cat is just such a stark image of seeing, you know, this sort of San Francisco that wants to resist all the ways that technology is now quite literally displacing people, animals, you know, a, a city that was once affordable to artists and creatives and teachers and, you know, working class folks.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This whole story really kind of characterized I think some of that disappointment and sadness that people have about having no say or no control over the quote unquote progress that’s happening around them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, knowing that, there’s a real ironic twist to this story. KitKat, the adorable face of resistance to encroaching tech, is now also a meme coin. And yes for the uninitiated, that’s a cryptocurrency thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So now you know there is an altar on 16th Street for KitKat, but he will forever be immortalized on the blockchain as a crypto coin also.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KITKATCOIN launched without the knowledge of KitKat’s actual family, but the store owner’s son has since taken over. He says he donated the first $10,000 of proceeds to an animal rights group. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I believe that it hit its peak on Halloween, which was just a few days after KitKat’s death. Um, but pretty shortly after that the value of this crypto coin just plummeted. Uh, which if you’ve followed these meme coins before is a pretty typical story. But I think with this, you know, it really. Just sort of epitomizes the virality of this story and how it took on a life of its own online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, there’s KitKat the tech martyr and KitKat the meme coin, immortalized on the blockchain. In the Mission, locals just remember KitKat the bodega cat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think people would remember him first as a friend, uh, second as a member of that community. I think KitKat encompassed everything that this, like one block of resistance,in the mission, um, against, um, waves of gentrification. I always think about this block in a very romantic old school San Francisco way. You have this like feeling of like people mourning this loss together and this like very, um, deep connection that everyone had with each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, like I went to report the next night. Uh, and I went to Delirium and people were taking shots for KitKat. You know, like Delirium is right next to the liquor store. if you had been there, you would’ve seen the mood in the bar that night. Everyone was really quiet. Everyone was really sad, and people were taking shots for KitKat left and \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So pour one out for KitKat. We’d usually close all these tabs, but today? Let’s leave his open a little longer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And by the way — Close All Tabs is taking a break for the holidays. We’ll see you in the new year, with brand new deep dives! For now, we’re wrapping up this year — in honor of our friend KitKat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, and edited by Chris Egusa.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva, Chris Hambrick is our editor. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Also, we want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or TikTok at “close all tabs.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "one-year-later-the-internets-still-talking-about-luigi-mangione",
"title": "One Year Later, The Internet’s Still Talking About Luigi Mangione",
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"headTitle": "One Year Later, The Internet’s Still Talking About Luigi Mangione | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On December 4, 2024, United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson was shot and killed outside a Midtown New York hotel. The subsequent arrest of 26-year-old Luigi Mangione set off a frenzy far beyond a typical breaking news story. Almost immediately, supporters emerged, detractors pushed back and then something stranger took hold: a devoted fandom that treated Mangione not just as a suspect, but as a symbol.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One year later, we look at how a single crime became a cultural flashpoint and how narratives built around Magione are shaping public perception. Investigative journalist Melkorka Licea unpacks the different factions of Mangione’s online supporters. Then, legal expert Daniel Medwed helps Morgan understand the challenges of selecting a fair jury in an era when high-profile cases unfold in real time across millions of screens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5854827992\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://muckrack.com/melkorka-licea\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Melkorka Licea\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, investigative journalist \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://law.northeastern.edu/faculty/medwed/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Daniel Medwed\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, professor of law at Northeastern University\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/inside-the-contentious-world-of-luigi-mangione-supporters/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Inside the Contentious World of Luigi Mangione Supporters\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Melkorka Licea, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WIRED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/luigi-mangione-new-york-hearing-1235474867/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luigi Mangione Hearing Hits on 3D Gun, Never-Before-Heard 911 Call, Comparisons to the Unabomber\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lorena O’Neil, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rolling Stone\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://fortune.com/2024/12/05/unitedhealthcare-ceo-brian-thompson-lawsuits-social-media-reaction-motive/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slain UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson’s tenure was marked by rocketing profits—and accusations of insider trading and coverage denial\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Sasha Rogelberg, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fortune\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://lithub.com/luigi-mangione-is-currently-reading-what-can-we-really-learn-about-the-uhc-ceos-killer-based-on-the-books-hes-read/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luigi is Currently Reading: What Can We Really Learn About the UHC CEO’s Alleged Killer Based on the Books He’s Read?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — James Folta, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Literary Hub\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://wwd.com/pop-culture/culture-news/luigi-mangione-loafers-outfit-ankles-sweater-courtroom-1236968836/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luigi Mangione’s ‘Loafers,’ ‘Outfit’ and ‘Ankles’ Go Viral as His Unexpected Fashion Influence Persists After Latest Court Appearance\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Renan Botelho, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WWD\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.thetimes.com/us/news-today/article/meet-cougars-for-luigi-mangione-and-new-fans-of-the-alleged-killer-v7cqjzc3b\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Meet the ‘Cougars for Luigi Mangione’ — and new fans of the alleged killer\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Josie Ensor, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cnn.com/2025/01/10/us/jury-nullification-luigi-mangione-defense\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is jury nullification and what does it mean for Luigi Mangione’s defense?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Eric Levenson, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CNN\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/emmett-till-grand-jury-woman-accusations-led-to-killing-2022-8\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Grand jury declines to indict the 88-year-old white woman whose false accusations led to Emmett Till’s death in 1955\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Haven Orecchio-Egresitz, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Business Insider\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back in February, a dancer at the Los Angeles strip club Jumbo’s Clown Room put on a very special performance. She wore 8-inch platform heels and a black string bikini, but on top, an unexpected accessory: a big t-shirt printed with Luigi Mangione’s mugshot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And, uh, at one point she put this t-shirt up with his face and wrapped it around her face so it looked like Luigi was dancing\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is investigative journalist Melkorka Licea. She described the performance in a story she wrote for Wired — a deep dive reporting on Luigi’s rapidly growing fandom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and then another point she ripped the shirt off and like put it on the ground and started riding on him and the crowd went wild and everyone started chanting “Free Luigi! , ” So it was quite the scene. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just over a year ago, on December 9, 2024, then-26 year old Luigi Mangione was arrested at a McDonald’s in Altoona, Pennsylvania, under suspicion for the murder of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Thompson had been shot on the sidewalk outside the Hilton in midtown Manhattan just days before. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">His death was an immediate cultural flashpoint, sparking online debate and discussion about the US’s dysfunctional healthcare system. But after Luigi was arrested, and his face was made public, the narrative shifted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Tiktok clip from @dearmedia ]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I saw the mugshot and then I saw the picture in the cell, and I’m like, they need to stop releasing his photos, everyone’s too horny.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Tiktok clip from @ meyechelgossipsdeluxe]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, I don’t even think the Joker got this kind of treatment. I also feel like … did he get a haircut? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok clip from @michellearezouross]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We, the people, want Luigi free! We, the people, want Luigi free! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The fanfare around Luigi is unprecedented. He’s become the face of protest against the broken medical system — and to add to that? He’s kind of a sex symbol. Many of his supporters think he’s innocent. Plenty of them say they don’t condone violence, but are vocal about his right to a fair trial. Others believe he stands for something bigger, and that he should walk free regardless of whether or not he did it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Either way, over the last year, Luigi has gained a massive following. Even if you weren’t a supporter, it was nearly impossible to escape the flood of content about him on social media … and that makes his case incredibly complicated when it comes to legal proceedings. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luigi faces charges in three different jurisdictions — there’s a state court case on gun and fake ID charges in Pennsylvania, and two New York cases for murder: one state and one federal. And though the buzz around him has quieted down from its initial level, at the pre-trial hearing for the New York state case just two weeks ago, supporters still packed into the back rows of the courtroom. Many of them wore green, inspired by the viral emerald knit sweater that he wore at one of his first hearings.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, a year after his arrest, how does Luigi’s robust fanbase complicate all of this? And what can the last year of viral chatter tell us about the future of extremely public criminal cases? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re diving into the phenomenon of Luigi Mangione … how the flood of content about him, and the fracturing of the fandom, could make the process of jury selection in any trial unlike anything we’ve ever seen before. Buckle up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we really get into it, it’s been a long year, ok? A lot has happened. Let’s get a little refresher on the early days of this case. And for that, we’re opening a new tab: \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why did Luigi go viral?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s go back in time to December 4, 2025. 50-year-old Brian Thompson, the CEO of one of the biggest health insurance companies in the United States, was about to enter a Midtown hotel. He was scheduled to speak at an investor meeting later that morning. But then he was fatally shot in the back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@abc7NY\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eyewitness News ABC7NY\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was in Manhattan for an annual conference at the Hilton when his life was cut short this morning by a murderer in Midtown. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The masked shooter initially fled on foot, and then hopped on a Citibike, kicking off a nationwide manhunt. Later that day, the NYPD held a conference about the attack. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fox 4 \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@abc7NY\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New Y\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ork]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Early this morning, 50-year-old Brian Thompson the CEO of United Healthcare was shot and killed in what appears, at this early stage of our investigation, to be a brazen, targeted attack. This does not appear to be a random act of violence.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, United Healthcare, like many other health insurers, has faced immense criticism for the way it handles claims. And it had been in the news. About a month before the shooting, a ProPublica investigation revealed that United Healthcare had cut some mental health treatments by using an algorithm. That’s a practice that California, Massachusetts, and New York have since deemed illegal. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">United Healthcare’s claim denial rate last year hit 32% — the industry average is 16. A Senate Majority Report on Medicare coverage last year found that United Healthcare in particular denied coverage for care and support services needed after hospitalization.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The company’s profits, meanwhile, had skyrocketed under Thompson’s leadership. He had become the face of United Healthcare’s successes, and all of the grievances people had with the company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then, police found three words engraved on the bullet casings used to kill Bryan Thompson: Deny. Defend. Depose. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They appear to reference the phrase “Delay, Deny, Defend” — the tactics that insurers use to avoid paying for claims. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Suddenly, it seemed like there was a motive. Online, people started to sympathize with the suspect. Some people did celebrate the murder, but for others, it wasn’t about condoning violence Anyone who’d had experience with their health insurance company might imagine how someone could be pushed to the extremes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This story had become a cultural moment way before anyone knew anything about the suspect. It was a uniquely American story. Like, this was a segment on the Daily Show, the day after the shooting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok clip from @thedailyshow]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now the cops just need to narrow down the list of suspects to anyone in America who hates their healthcare plan and has access to guns [laughter] It should be solved in no time! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The next few days were consumed by the nationwide manhunt. Authorities released a grainy shot of a, “person of interest” grinning, under a hooded jacket and thick eyebrows. The police announced that they discovered a backpack that allegedly belonged to the shooter. No firearm, but inside: a jacket, and a stack of Monopoly money. This was another viral moment, because it seemed like the suspect was trolling. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Finally, after five days, local police in Altoona, Pennsylvania arrested Luigi Mangione. A McDonald’s employee had called in, and said they noticed similarities between a young man in their store, and the person of interest that the NYPD posted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The photos of Luigi Mangione after he was arrested blew up online. Here’s journalist Melkorka Licea again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It started as just sort of a healthcare related story, right? And then once that photo of Luigi was released and he had his, you know, thick eyebrows and a very attractive face. Suddenly the narrative really shifted from solely just a person perhaps avenging some type of healthcare related issue to just like, ‘oh, he’s, he’s maybe a hero. He’s hot and he did something good for the world.’ And that’s I think when it really started to like spin off into a whole nother dimension online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The shell casings matched the 3D-printed gun that police said they found on Luigi, along with a fake New Jersey driver’s license, and a handwritten document about American healthcare. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It wasn’t just his looks. As soon as his name was released to the public, internet sleuths dug up a Goodreads account that appeared to belong to him — same name, same face. This account logged books that are pretty typical of a mid-twenties software engineer, like \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The 4-Hour Work Week\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Atomic Habits.\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The account gave \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Lorax\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> five stars, and the Unabomber’s manifesto four. But it also listed a few books about chronic pain and an X account that matched Luigi’s name and face had posted an X-ray after back surgery, with screws in the lower spine. This digital trail, even if it didn’t belong to Luigi, garnered sympathy from social media users. A lot of people could identify with debilitating chronic pain.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On December 19, Luigi was transported from Pennsylvania to New York. When he arrived, a swarm of heavily armed officers and then New York Mayor Eric Adams escorted him. This super publicized perp walk was another major viral moment. He was an instant meme. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok clip from @reyahthelastdragon]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First of all, Luigi turned that perp walk into his catwalk, ok? One thing about him? He’s gonna serve. This man does not take any bad photos. And, hell, this photo in question looks like it should be on the cover of album of the year.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Hawk’s Podcast Youtube Channel]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People were cheering from windows as they marched him through the streets. It was a f*cking parade, it wasn’t a perp walk. I’ve never seen anything like this before! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from @ \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Priscilla Boye\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Youtube Channel]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hate to say it, might be unpopular. But honestly, this only made him look cooler. Like, let’s be so real. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On social media across the country and internationally, people compared the photos to Renaissance paintings of Jesus and scenes from superhero movies. Typically, perp walks are meant to cast the suspect in a sinister light. Clearly, this didn’t go according to plan. If anything, the spectacle of the perp walk gave his supporters more material to edit and repost. And this was the foundation for the Luigi Mangione fandom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was on TikTok, Instagram reels, everything. It was truly exploding with like, fangirl type of content, I would say. TikToks with like hearts surrounding him, calling him like the hottest hero, and just a lot of like thirsty, for lack of a better word, content out there. But everyone, at least what I was seeing online, was very on his side for the most part, like viewing it as he was this Robin Hood hero. I remember the internet was saturated with this content around Christmas time. And everyone, I think, was like, off work or had more free time and was just scrolling, making these TikToks for a couple of weeks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So by the holidays, Luigi Mangione had already amassed a huge following. But his supporters didn’t stay united for long. Any fandom online, whether it’s Marvel shows or teen vampire romances, is bound to have rifts. But with a criminal trial, fandom infighting has actual stakes. We’ll get into that in a new tab: The rifts in the Luigi Mangione fandom. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Melkorka started reporting on Luigi Mangione’s fan base this spring. She wanted to understand why his supporters were so passionate, beyond just his looks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As I started reaching out to people and talking to people, I realized very quickly that some people were very upset that I would reach out to them asking about healthcare and that, you know, I was part of the problem as the part of the media. And so I was like, Hey, look, um, I didn’t know about this, uh, can you fill me in? I’d love to to learn more. And that’s when I really started to understand that there was actually a lot of this infighting going on online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, based on Melkorka’s reporting, there are three main factions within the Luigi fandom. The first, they think he’s a hero, standing against the broken healthcare system, regardless of whether he did it. The second faction believes he’s innocent, and they don’t like associating him with healthcare causes because that narrative makes him look guilty. And finally, the thirst accounts. Melkorka is going to walk us through these three factions. Let’s talk about the first one. The group that is that’s using this momentum to raise awareness of the broken healthcare system. Can you explain their motivations? Like how do they see Luigi? How are they portraying him on social media?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because, you know, Brian Thompson was the CEO of United Healthcare. There was not exactly a motive released right away after this crime happened. But a lot of you know evidence seems to point to Luigi having suffered through a very difficult healthcare journey himself. And I think that really resonated with so many people that they wanted to use this conversation that was going on online to further reform and to, you know, bring more awareness and, you know, hopefully change the healthcare system for the better and create a more accessible system for folks. A lot of them use personal examples or are highlighting very awful experiences that some people have had. One group they put a giant billboard truck outside of the courthouse that scrolled through all these different cases, wrongful death lawsuits. So a lot of them have started Instagram accounts, a lot of them have TikToks as well, where they create reels or slideshows that again highlight cases where people were wronged by the healthcare system, talk about Luigi and you know, the information that’s come out about his personal journey with the healthcare system and how it relates. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How did this event act as like a conduit for people’s just universal rage against the system on an emotional level?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I think it gave people a lot of empowerment to get on the internet and share their stories, to be angry about what they’ve gone through. Of course, when people are pushed, especially physically in ways that is painful, they don’t have access, you know, it’s putting them out of money. I think it did make people feel like, Hey, yeah, I feel like I’m being pushed to violence, or maybe I’m being pushed this far too. And and maybe let’s talk about it, because it’s not okay and it’s not normal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then there are the fans who believe that Luigi is totally innocent. Why don’t they get along with the healthcare advocates? How would you describe the way that they post?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So those folks believe that by tying a healthcare message to this case at all, um, and tying that to Luigi at all already implies that he’s guilty. So by talking about, you know, Luigi’s past with healthcare, that is insinuating his guilt. And they feel that Luigi is genuinely innocent, that he should not be tied at all to any sort of healthcare message because he had no healthcare message.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and that he’s a young man who is essentially being framed for this crime. So they feel that, although of course, that the healthcare message is something that a lot of them believe in, um, they think that it has no business, uh, being tied to this case whatsoever.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How do they post online? What, what is their reach, um, how do they interact with the internet at large?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say, you know, they’re less known. Obviously, as I went in, I also myself did not know about them. But the more I sort of learned about who they are, I started noticing them more often. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they also create Instagram accounts and as well as TikToks, but they really only push the message of like Luigi is innocent, here’s why. They really like to present a lot of evidence that they feel points to his innocence, instances where police may have done something where they tainted evidence, for example, or you know, did something along those lines. And then another kind of bigger aspect of I think their fighting online is they very much go to the healthcare people and sort of spark debate in the comment section, in you know, messaging, sometimes I think in person as well. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They go, you know, show up to the court cases where there’s a lot of Luigi fandom outside or supporters outside, and they, you know, engage in conversation with them as well. So yeah, I think I’ve heard some instances where it’s gotten pretty heated between some of them. Um, I think the majority of it does take place, you know, on DMs.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there is one interaction between one of my sources and one of the healthcare people where the healthcare person was saying, ‘Hey, can you stop posting about this? Because most of the donors to Luigi’s case or have the healthcare message and you are actually getting in the way of him receiving money for fighting his case.’ So yeah, there’s certainly some interesting points and back and forth with, from both sides. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Finally, uh, the third group, um, are the fan accounts that will post any update or photo of Luigi. And I love the way that you phrased it in your Wired article. You said that they are “click driven, thirst forward.” What are their motivations? Like, how do they post?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think a lot of those types of posters, they’re just posting like cute pictures of Luigi with, you know, cute filters on top and uh, you know, talking about how he’s so sexy and that they love him. Um, and I do think for many of those posters, they do feel a connection to the healthcare movement and that is why, you know, I think he’s so glamorized, that’s part of it for them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But most of it is very just like they are thirsting for Luigi. He is a good looking guy. He also is, to many of them, a very good person. They really like to go into his narrative of just like, how sweet of a guy he is. He was always helping his friends. He was just a good human being. You know, a good student. So the thirsters like to build him up as kind of this prince charming type of guy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You had also mentioned this kind of competitive nature when it comes to posting about Luigi. Can you explain that? Like how is that impacting the way that people consume information about him?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think just like journalists where we are trying to get scoops, it’s the same thing for some Luigi posters where you know, whoever can get their hands on this detail about Luigi’s trip somewhere from a family member or, you know, maybe they got access to court documents first and get to post it first. And that will lead to more followers and more engagement. And I think for some of them, in their eyes, that could lead to potentially getting closer to Luigi.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to sum it up — the healthcare advocates believe Luigi is the face of resistance to a broken system. But the supporters who believe he’s innocent think the healthcare advocates are implicating his guilt by projecting a motive onto him. And both groups are frustrated by the thirst accounts, because they think that by fixating on his looks, it discredits the work of real supporters who just want him to have a fair trial. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a kind of clout aspect that muddies this up even more. Melkorka said some accounts are incentivized to keep posting and driving up engagement, in hopes of getting Luigi’s attention. It’s not dissimilar to a fan account trying to get their favorite celebrity to respond to a post. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For his 27th birthday, Luigi put out a public letter, listing 27 things he was grateful for. Number 9: His cellmate. Number 26: Free speech. And Number 16: Latinas For Mangione. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Instagram account Latinasformangione took credit for that one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I messaged the account before the letter came out. And then I saw, you know, after the letter came out and they amassed like tens of thousands of followers. So something like that can really springboard a supporter into the public eye um, perhaps like receiving more opportunities, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think for a lot of these supporters just being acknowledged by Luigi is a huge deal. He’s someone that they really, really love and care about. So one of their heroes just acknowledged their existence. That’s major. Um, and also he receives lots of letters in prison. So the chances that he would read your letter and, and address you, I think is really, um, massive for a lot of these followers and supporters.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Earlier this year, um, on the show we covered this kind of online censorship following the killing of Charlie Kirk. How did Charlie Kirk’s death impact the online discourse around Luigi specifically? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It definitely impacted it. So, you know, many of the Luigi supporters do put Luigi Mangione and Charlie Kirk’s shooter in the same bucket of people who maybe had a bigger idea of for why they committed the crime that they committed, a driving justice motivator, whether it’s political, whether it’s healthcare reform. But they sort of see both of them as Robin Hood-esque vigilantes who, you know, weren’t just shooting to kill somebody, but were doing it for a much larger cause that a lot of people felt that they could identify with. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I did speak to some of my sources afterward the Charlie Kirk incident, and they have sort of moved away from the Mangione fandom a bit because they felt that the Charlie Kirk discourse was taken too far. It made them uncomfortable. You know, before it was Luigi and his case, and it was sort of an isolated thing, and now it’s being turned into like a quote unquote pattern. And I think for some of them it was just too far and they didn’t want to continue supporting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And then on the other hand, um, you know, the backlash against people who spoke out against Charlie Kirk following his death. Did that discourage any of the Luigi Mangione fan accounts from posting? I mean, have they changed their strategy because of the way that..yeah, just like the backlash has gotten so severe?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they actually sort of welcome it, uh, for a lot of them. Even negative engagement is good engagement. A lot of them enjoy sort of getting into the comments and, and get fighting and, and getting into these arguments. Um, so I don’t think it’s really discouraged them honestly. Um, if anything, it might open more doors for them to make more points and create more content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How would you describe the current content ecosystem around Luigi Mangione today? I mean has it changed from a year ago?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, certainly. I think that the thirsting has died down a lot, that it had a big moment. You know, right after, but that it’s, it’s died down and now it’s become a lot more, um, serious and, uh, the more serious accounts that really are fighting for, you know, healthcare reform and also his innocence,they’re the ones that are really continuing the work they do, putting in that work every day. Um, of course the thirst content doesn’t go away, but it’s just much, much less. Um, although I imagine that it will certainly pick up again in the future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s a documented link between criminal trials and fandom, like serial killers like Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy. They attracted groupies way, way before the internet existed. But what is it about Luigi’s case and the support system that he’s built that’s different?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s because it involves, you know, a justice issue, where it’s not just a good-looking serial killer who killed, you know, innocent women. It’s someone who a lot of people feel killed someone who maybe deserved it, which is very dark, but I think it represents a much more Robin Hood-esque movement than any of the other people who attracted groupies. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do think it’s interesting looking at fandoms for people like the serial killers you mentioned, because they did not have the internet at the time. And it was more about sending letters and kind of creating this fantasy world with this person in your mind. Whereas now we kind of have this big collective fandom that becomes a huge movement. I find it really interesting how the internet fuels that. Yeah, I wonder, I’m very curious to see how the, if we, you know get to trial, what how the jury will be chosen? Like, how are they gonna, how are they gonna choose those people? I genuinely don’t know. Like, how do you avoid this? You can’t, you, people don’t live under a rock. Like, how do you, how do you manage to find people that don’t probably already have like a preconceived notion about him? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s gonna be a really interesting process. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For sure. We’re going to answer those exact questions after a break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re back! Let’s open a new tab: Jury selection in the age of the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To dive into this, we need to hear from a legal expert, Daniel Medwed, professor of law at Northeastern University. He specializes in criminal law and wrongful convictions, so he’s been following this case pretty closely. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There is so much content about Luigi Mangione online, you know, both positive and negative. Why might this flood of content make the possibility of a trial even more complicated?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it makes it more complicated for the following reasons, not just that almost every juror knows about this case, but almost every juror has some preconceived idea about the virtue of his behavior or the lack of virtue, or some idea about him as a person.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in our system of law, the goal is to find not necessarily jurors who’ve never heard of the case, but jurors who can be fair and impartial.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the goal of the lawyers and the judge is to figure out who within that group can put aside their preexisting information and belief and look at the evidence with equanimity, look at the evidence, uh fairly. This almost more than any case in recent imagination, is gonna put that principle to the test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How does jury selection usually play out in high profile cases, even if they aren’t nearly as high profile as this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what happens in most trials, Morgan, is that the lawyers and the judges will ask questions of the jurors who are there to be selected. So you sort of winnow down this huge pool of prospective jurors into the 12 jurors and two alternates typically that are ultimately impaneled for the jury. And those questions are designed to ferret out jurors that might be biased or not a good fit for the case.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So both the prosecution and the defense typically have two different ways of ferreting out these jurors. One is called a challenge for cause and there is typically no cap on the number of challenges for cause that you can raise. So let’s just say there’s a juror who is like, knee deep in the Luigi fandom, uh, world and has posted a lot about how much that person loves Luigi and supports Luigi. A prosecutor could probably strike that person for cause, say that person is biased, really can’t be objective and fair in the case. And, and like likewise, right? A defense lawyer could maybe, um, strike somebody for, cause who’s made it clear on social media or elsewhere that they believe that what Luigi Mangione did was completely without justification and abhorrent and, you know, he should be given, uh, the severest sanction possible. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the second mechanism, and I think this is what’s gonna be really interesting, Morgan, it’s called a peremptory challenge. And both sides, each side has a set number of peremptory challenges depending on the jurisdiction and the type of case. And what a peremptory challenge is, is you can strike somebody without articulating the basis for striking them. You don’t have to say, ‘I think they’re biased,’ you’ll just say ‘I don’t want number 12. I don’t want number 26.’ And the idea here is maybe you don’t have anything concrete to hang your head on to suggest that the person is biased against your case, but you have a sneaking suspicion that they wouldn’t be good for your side, and so you’ll end up using your peremptory challenges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a case like this, Morgan, I think peremptory challenges are gonna be the name of the game because the lawyers are really gonna try to ferret out and figure out who within the pool is gonna really, you know, steer the jury in one way, way or the other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So there’s this social media challenge where like there are so much just like content about Luigi, good and bad, but then there’s this other thing offline, and it’s the fact that a lot of people in the US have been screwed over by health insurance. How does that affect this, this kind of jury selection process?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Most Americans have to, at some point in their lives, deal with hospitals, health insurance, doctors, and many of us are frustrated by how health insurance companies respond to our claims. And so the idea of potentially exacting revenge against someone from a very profitable high profile health insurance company is something that a lot of people could relate to, not necessarily in terms of inflicting violence. I hope that’s not something people can relate to, but the idea of expressing extreme displeasure with how big insurance companies treat their clients, clients who are often in the throes of medical crises and have mounting bills. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think the way that this could affect jury selection, Morgan, is there are gonna be lots of questions, especially from the prosecution of prospective jurors: What is your experience with the insurance industry? Have you ever filed a claim that was denied, right? What is your view of vigilante justice? If you are upset about how somebody has treated you or a loved one, do you think the appropriate mechanism is to go to law enforcement or to inflict revenge, um, at a private level? So I think there’ll be lots of questions that are, that are designed to probe into whether a witness is biased.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like you said, there are pretty clear cut examples here of, uh, reasons why someone might be, you know, cut out from the jury. And that could be, you know, running a thirst account for Luigi, uh, be running a healthcare reform account, or even just being like very vocally anti Luigi. But then those are all people who are posting online. What about internet consumption habits? Like, how does that play a role here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So one thing that’s happened more and more in the last decade or so in high profile cases is the judges are asking jurors, prospective jurors, and the litigants are asking prospective jurors about their media consumption habits.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Back in the day before the internet took off, some of these questions would relate to newspaper and television consumption habits. You know, do you read the New York Times? Do you watch ABC news, things like that. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now what we’re seeing is judges and litigants asking prospective jurors: What news media do you consume online? What websites do you go to? Are you active on social media? What have you seen on social media? And sometimes the failure of a judge to do this in a high profile case can create problems down the road.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Is there any precedent for this? Like, what was the turning point for, uh, for lawyers to actually pay attention to potential jurors’ internet habits?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think the turning point Morgan, was the Boston Marathon bombing case. So the Boston Marathon bombing occurred back in 2013, pretty long ago. Um, and the one man who was charged with the crime, Jahar \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tsarnaev\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, went to trial in federal court in Boston, very high profile case. So what happened, and the reason why I’m thinking of this case, Morgan, is the judge didn’t do a great a job of ferreting out the online presence of the jurors. And ultimately, that caused problems on appeal because the defense said…it turned out that some of the jurors had consumed a lot of information and seen a lot about Jahar \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tsarnaev\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, and they hadn’t disclosed that during jury selection, in part, because they hadn’t been asked thoroughly. And it created all sorts of problems that delayed the resolution of the case. So I look at that case as one, as sort of a bellwether, um, or like a canary in the coal mine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, it’s one thing to ask, you know, like what news sites do you read? How many hours a day do you spend on TikTok? But it’s, it’s another thing to ask like, what subreddits do you visit? Do you read fan fiction? You know, like these, it all seems a bit invasive. Where do you like, where is the line here? Like, what will people actually fess up to?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t know where the line is. The judge will probably probe and prod as far as possible, but that doesn’t necessarily ensure, as you suggest, that the jurors will be forthcoming. And what’s especially kind of complicated here is the fact that Luigi Mangione is this, this sex symbol.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I imagine that some of these sites, um, have sexual or sexual adjacent, if that’s even a word, content. And so jurors who have visited those sites might be reluctant, they might be embarrassed to admit that they go to those sites, but yet that information might be relevant to the lawyers and the judge in figuring out whether the juror can be fair and impartial.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s fair to say that the judges and the lawyers are gonna push the line as close as possible to invading the privacy and autonomy of the prospective jurors. Some jurors are gonna push back and there aren’t that many great mechanisms for figuring out whether the juror is not being completely honest and transparent in their answers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, looking forward, once a jury has been selected, despite all of the challenges that Daniel just laid out, prosecutors might still face another hurdle. Let’s open one more tab: What is jury nullification? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If one of these three pending, uh, cases does go to trial, people keep throwing around this word: jury nullification. What is that and why is it relevant to this case specifically?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So here’s what jury nullification is: Iit’s an ancient power. It dates back to ye old England, Morgan, that basically says the jury may reject the law, they may reject the facts, and they may acquit the defendant. Even if under the law, the government has proven the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Usually what jurors are told to do, and usually what I hope or presume they do, is they act in a fair fashion and if they think the evidence proves guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, in a criminal case, they vote to convict. And if they think it doesn’t, they vote to acquit. Jury nullification is when the jury is so moved by the defendant and by the defendant’s cause and by the circumstances that they basically ignore the law, they ignore the facts, and they try to send a message to society by acquitting the defendant.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you give any examples of how this has played out in the past in also similar high profile cases?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Absolutely. I mean, jury nullification is, it’s like a stick of dynamite. It’s very, very dangerous because it is a way, to use sort of the dynamite analogy, for a jury to blow up the case. To just blow it up because they believe based on their own conscience, their own ideology, their own ethical or moral compasses, that that’s the right thing to do. And depending on your vantage point, what’s right for one person might not be right for the other person. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, for instance, one notorious example of jury nullification, which history does not view kindly for good reason related to the trial in Mississippi of the men who killed Emmett Till. And a lot of people think of this as the case that that triggered or sparked the civil rights movement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emmett Till was a 14-year-old Black boy from Chicago. In 1955, while Emmett was visiting relatives in Mississippi, he and a few other boys stopped at a grocery store to buy candy. There, a white woman accused him of whistling at her. There are conflicting witness reports of what happened, but remember, this was the South during Jim Crow. In retaliation, a group of white men kidnapped Emmett from his great-uncle’s home and brutally beat him to death. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They were not sheepish about this. They were bragging about the role in killing Emmett Till. And those men faced murder charges and an all white jury nullified, even though they had confessed to the crime. All the physical evidence, all the direct and circumstantial evidence pointed to them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So during nullification, when, when people talk about it. They often think about it in a way that will sort of vindicate the good person, vindicate somebody who has done something noble, even if, uh, it’s technically a crime. But it can also sometimes be used to excuse morally abhorrent conduct.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the case of Luigi Mangione, there’s just so much content about him, good and bad, but you know, just a lot of content. How might that influence a jury to nullify, even if they’re, you know, picked to be fair and impartial? Even then, how might this current content dichotomy influence that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s fair to say, it seems as though the vast majority of the online content is favorable to Mangione, right? Lots of fans. Lots of fans of his sort of Robin Hood-like behavior, taking on big insurance. Lots of fans of how he looks right and how he acts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that makes me think that there could be some stealth jurors, folks who get onto the jury who maybe haven’t quite disclosed the full extent of their fandom.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or even if there aren’t stealth jurors, there are just people who have a passing understanding of the case and they can be fair. But when they’re sitting there and they’re really thinking about the case. It’s quite possible they could nullify. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But just to play devil’s advocate for a moment, again, it’s one thing in the abstract to think about someone’s behavior and hold it high, to consider it to be noble, to consider it to be justified. It’s one thing that we can all do. But then when you’re in the courtroom and you’re seeing that person every day sitting at defense table and you’re listening to the evidence documenting in excruciating detail what he did in premeditated and deliberate fashion, kill a person he had never met and had no personal beef with, it might become a little bit harder to nullify \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Looking back at the last year and watching Luigi Mancini’s case unfold, what can we learn about the future of criminal law and criminal cases in the age of big content? Like do you have any predictions?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s both good and bad. In terms of the, the good, I think increasing access to information in general is a good thing. I mean, one thing I don’t know, that I bet you know and a lot of your peers know, is whether people are more informed about the criminal legal process because of cases like Luigi Mangione. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In other words, are there people who are fans of Luigi Mangione and as a part of their fandom have learned about the law, learned about criminal justice, learned about the difference between state court and federal court, learned about how the, the death penalty works or doesn’t work? That’s a good thing. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, the bad thing, of course, is for one, could it breed copycats? If people are putting Luigi Mangione up on a pedestal, are there other people out there thinking, hey, vigilante justice is okay? My issue is X. Maybe I should kill someone to advance the conversation in X. That would be a very, very bad thing, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In addition, another bad thing is, um, the meme isn’t always accurate. The description online isn’t always accurate. One thing we know has been a real issue in recent years is how do we figure out fact from something that’s not a fact? How do we verify the legitimacy of information? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Well thanks so much for joining us, Daniel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you, Morgan. It was my pleasure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s where Luigi Mangione’s case stands today. During the first week of December, around the one year anniversary of the shooting, Luigi appeared in New York state court, where he faces murder charges. This pre-trial hearing determined whether the evidence gathered during his arrest could be used in trial. His defense team argued that his backpack was searched without a warrant and therefore the 3D printed gun and handwritten notes allegedly found when he was arrested should be excluded. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">His most ardent supporters came prepared. Some of them have been attending his court appearances since last December. For this recent hearing, some fans began camping in front of the courthouse days in advance. They wore sashes that said “Free Luigi” and traded handmade beaded friendship bracelets, like Swifties did during the Eras tour. Those who couldn’t get into the courtroom rallied outside, even as temperatures dipped below freezing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luigi is scheduled to appear in New York’s federal court in January. Prosecutors in that case are seeking the death penalty. We’ll be keeping an eye on the proceedings, but even if we close these tabs today, his fans, at least, will keep theirs open. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, and edited by Jen Chien.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Chris Egusa is our senior editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends too, or even your enemies or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Also, we want to hear from you. Email us at CloseAllTabs@kqed.org Follow us on Instagram @CloseAllTabsPod or TikTok @CloseAllTabs. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "One year later, we look at how Luigi Mangione became a cultural flashpoint and how his online fandom might affect his eventual trial.",
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"title": "One Year Later, The Internet’s Still Talking About Luigi Mangione | KQED",
"description": "On December 4, 2024, United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson was shot and killed outside a Midtown New York hotel. The subsequent arrest of 26-year-old Luigi Mangione set off a frenzy far beyond a typical breaking news story. Almost immediately, supporters emerged, detractors pushed back and then something stranger took hold: a devoted fandom that treated Mangione not just as a suspect, but as a symbol. One year later, we look at how a single crime became a cultural flashpoint and how narratives built around Magione are shaping public perception. Investigative journalist Melokorka Licea unpacks the different factions of Mangione’s online supporters. Then, legal expert Daniel Medwed helps Morgan understand the challenges of selecting a fair jury in an era when high-profile cases unfold in real time across millions of screens.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On December 4, 2024, United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson was shot and killed outside a Midtown New York hotel. The subsequent arrest of 26-year-old Luigi Mangione set off a frenzy far beyond a typical breaking news story. Almost immediately, supporters emerged, detractors pushed back and then something stranger took hold: a devoted fandom that treated Mangione not just as a suspect, but as a symbol.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One year later, we look at how a single crime became a cultural flashpoint and how narratives built around Magione are shaping public perception. Investigative journalist Melkorka Licea unpacks the different factions of Mangione’s online supporters. Then, legal expert Daniel Medwed helps Morgan understand the challenges of selecting a fair jury in an era when high-profile cases unfold in real time across millions of screens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5854827992\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://muckrack.com/melkorka-licea\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Melkorka Licea\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, investigative journalist \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://law.northeastern.edu/faculty/medwed/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Daniel Medwed\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, professor of law at Northeastern University\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/inside-the-contentious-world-of-luigi-mangione-supporters/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Inside the Contentious World of Luigi Mangione Supporters\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Melkorka Licea, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WIRED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/luigi-mangione-new-york-hearing-1235474867/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luigi Mangione Hearing Hits on 3D Gun, Never-Before-Heard 911 Call, Comparisons to the Unabomber\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lorena O’Neil, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rolling Stone\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://fortune.com/2024/12/05/unitedhealthcare-ceo-brian-thompson-lawsuits-social-media-reaction-motive/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slain UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson’s tenure was marked by rocketing profits—and accusations of insider trading and coverage denial\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Sasha Rogelberg, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fortune\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://lithub.com/luigi-mangione-is-currently-reading-what-can-we-really-learn-about-the-uhc-ceos-killer-based-on-the-books-hes-read/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luigi is Currently Reading: What Can We Really Learn About the UHC CEO’s Alleged Killer Based on the Books He’s Read?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — James Folta, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Literary Hub\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://wwd.com/pop-culture/culture-news/luigi-mangione-loafers-outfit-ankles-sweater-courtroom-1236968836/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luigi Mangione’s ‘Loafers,’ ‘Outfit’ and ‘Ankles’ Go Viral as His Unexpected Fashion Influence Persists After Latest Court Appearance\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Renan Botelho, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WWD\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.thetimes.com/us/news-today/article/meet-cougars-for-luigi-mangione-and-new-fans-of-the-alleged-killer-v7cqjzc3b\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Meet the ‘Cougars for Luigi Mangione’ — and new fans of the alleged killer\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Josie Ensor, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cnn.com/2025/01/10/us/jury-nullification-luigi-mangione-defense\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is jury nullification and what does it mean for Luigi Mangione’s defense?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Eric Levenson, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CNN\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/emmett-till-grand-jury-woman-accusations-led-to-killing-2022-8\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Grand jury declines to indict the 88-year-old white woman whose false accusations led to Emmett Till’s death in 1955\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Haven Orecchio-Egresitz, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Business Insider\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back in February, a dancer at the Los Angeles strip club Jumbo’s Clown Room put on a very special performance. She wore 8-inch platform heels and a black string bikini, but on top, an unexpected accessory: a big t-shirt printed with Luigi Mangione’s mugshot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And, uh, at one point she put this t-shirt up with his face and wrapped it around her face so it looked like Luigi was dancing\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is investigative journalist Melkorka Licea. She described the performance in a story she wrote for Wired — a deep dive reporting on Luigi’s rapidly growing fandom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and then another point she ripped the shirt off and like put it on the ground and started riding on him and the crowd went wild and everyone started chanting “Free Luigi! , ” So it was quite the scene. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just over a year ago, on December 9, 2024, then-26 year old Luigi Mangione was arrested at a McDonald’s in Altoona, Pennsylvania, under suspicion for the murder of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Thompson had been shot on the sidewalk outside the Hilton in midtown Manhattan just days before. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">His death was an immediate cultural flashpoint, sparking online debate and discussion about the US’s dysfunctional healthcare system. But after Luigi was arrested, and his face was made public, the narrative shifted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Tiktok clip from @dearmedia ]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I saw the mugshot and then I saw the picture in the cell, and I’m like, they need to stop releasing his photos, everyone’s too horny.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Tiktok clip from @ meyechelgossipsdeluxe]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, I don’t even think the Joker got this kind of treatment. I also feel like … did he get a haircut? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok clip from @michellearezouross]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We, the people, want Luigi free! We, the people, want Luigi free! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The fanfare around Luigi is unprecedented. He’s become the face of protest against the broken medical system — and to add to that? He’s kind of a sex symbol. Many of his supporters think he’s innocent. Plenty of them say they don’t condone violence, but are vocal about his right to a fair trial. Others believe he stands for something bigger, and that he should walk free regardless of whether or not he did it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Either way, over the last year, Luigi has gained a massive following. Even if you weren’t a supporter, it was nearly impossible to escape the flood of content about him on social media … and that makes his case incredibly complicated when it comes to legal proceedings. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luigi faces charges in three different jurisdictions — there’s a state court case on gun and fake ID charges in Pennsylvania, and two New York cases for murder: one state and one federal. And though the buzz around him has quieted down from its initial level, at the pre-trial hearing for the New York state case just two weeks ago, supporters still packed into the back rows of the courtroom. Many of them wore green, inspired by the viral emerald knit sweater that he wore at one of his first hearings.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, a year after his arrest, how does Luigi’s robust fanbase complicate all of this? And what can the last year of viral chatter tell us about the future of extremely public criminal cases? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re diving into the phenomenon of Luigi Mangione … how the flood of content about him, and the fracturing of the fandom, could make the process of jury selection in any trial unlike anything we’ve ever seen before. Buckle up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we really get into it, it’s been a long year, ok? A lot has happened. Let’s get a little refresher on the early days of this case. And for that, we’re opening a new tab: \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why did Luigi go viral?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s go back in time to December 4, 2025. 50-year-old Brian Thompson, the CEO of one of the biggest health insurance companies in the United States, was about to enter a Midtown hotel. He was scheduled to speak at an investor meeting later that morning. But then he was fatally shot in the back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@abc7NY\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eyewitness News ABC7NY\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was in Manhattan for an annual conference at the Hilton when his life was cut short this morning by a murderer in Midtown. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The masked shooter initially fled on foot, and then hopped on a Citibike, kicking off a nationwide manhunt. Later that day, the NYPD held a conference about the attack. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fox 4 \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@abc7NY\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New Y\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ork]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Early this morning, 50-year-old Brian Thompson the CEO of United Healthcare was shot and killed in what appears, at this early stage of our investigation, to be a brazen, targeted attack. This does not appear to be a random act of violence.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, United Healthcare, like many other health insurers, has faced immense criticism for the way it handles claims. And it had been in the news. About a month before the shooting, a ProPublica investigation revealed that United Healthcare had cut some mental health treatments by using an algorithm. That’s a practice that California, Massachusetts, and New York have since deemed illegal. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">United Healthcare’s claim denial rate last year hit 32% — the industry average is 16. A Senate Majority Report on Medicare coverage last year found that United Healthcare in particular denied coverage for care and support services needed after hospitalization.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The company’s profits, meanwhile, had skyrocketed under Thompson’s leadership. He had become the face of United Healthcare’s successes, and all of the grievances people had with the company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then, police found three words engraved on the bullet casings used to kill Bryan Thompson: Deny. Defend. Depose. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They appear to reference the phrase “Delay, Deny, Defend” — the tactics that insurers use to avoid paying for claims. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Suddenly, it seemed like there was a motive. Online, people started to sympathize with the suspect. Some people did celebrate the murder, but for others, it wasn’t about condoning violence Anyone who’d had experience with their health insurance company might imagine how someone could be pushed to the extremes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This story had become a cultural moment way before anyone knew anything about the suspect. It was a uniquely American story. Like, this was a segment on the Daily Show, the day after the shooting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok clip from @thedailyshow]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now the cops just need to narrow down the list of suspects to anyone in America who hates their healthcare plan and has access to guns [laughter] It should be solved in no time! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The next few days were consumed by the nationwide manhunt. Authorities released a grainy shot of a, “person of interest” grinning, under a hooded jacket and thick eyebrows. The police announced that they discovered a backpack that allegedly belonged to the shooter. No firearm, but inside: a jacket, and a stack of Monopoly money. This was another viral moment, because it seemed like the suspect was trolling. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Finally, after five days, local police in Altoona, Pennsylvania arrested Luigi Mangione. A McDonald’s employee had called in, and said they noticed similarities between a young man in their store, and the person of interest that the NYPD posted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The photos of Luigi Mangione after he was arrested blew up online. Here’s journalist Melkorka Licea again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It started as just sort of a healthcare related story, right? And then once that photo of Luigi was released and he had his, you know, thick eyebrows and a very attractive face. Suddenly the narrative really shifted from solely just a person perhaps avenging some type of healthcare related issue to just like, ‘oh, he’s, he’s maybe a hero. He’s hot and he did something good for the world.’ And that’s I think when it really started to like spin off into a whole nother dimension online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The shell casings matched the 3D-printed gun that police said they found on Luigi, along with a fake New Jersey driver’s license, and a handwritten document about American healthcare. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It wasn’t just his looks. As soon as his name was released to the public, internet sleuths dug up a Goodreads account that appeared to belong to him — same name, same face. This account logged books that are pretty typical of a mid-twenties software engineer, like \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The 4-Hour Work Week\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Atomic Habits.\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The account gave \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Lorax\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> five stars, and the Unabomber’s manifesto four. But it also listed a few books about chronic pain and an X account that matched Luigi’s name and face had posted an X-ray after back surgery, with screws in the lower spine. This digital trail, even if it didn’t belong to Luigi, garnered sympathy from social media users. A lot of people could identify with debilitating chronic pain.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On December 19, Luigi was transported from Pennsylvania to New York. When he arrived, a swarm of heavily armed officers and then New York Mayor Eric Adams escorted him. This super publicized perp walk was another major viral moment. He was an instant meme. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TikTok clip from @reyahthelastdragon]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First of all, Luigi turned that perp walk into his catwalk, ok? One thing about him? He’s gonna serve. This man does not take any bad photos. And, hell, this photo in question looks like it should be on the cover of album of the year.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Hawk’s Podcast Youtube Channel]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People were cheering from windows as they marched him through the streets. It was a f*cking parade, it wasn’t a perp walk. I’ve never seen anything like this before! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from @ \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Priscilla Boye\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Youtube Channel]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hate to say it, might be unpopular. But honestly, this only made him look cooler. Like, let’s be so real. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On social media across the country and internationally, people compared the photos to Renaissance paintings of Jesus and scenes from superhero movies. Typically, perp walks are meant to cast the suspect in a sinister light. Clearly, this didn’t go according to plan. If anything, the spectacle of the perp walk gave his supporters more material to edit and repost. And this was the foundation for the Luigi Mangione fandom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was on TikTok, Instagram reels, everything. It was truly exploding with like, fangirl type of content, I would say. TikToks with like hearts surrounding him, calling him like the hottest hero, and just a lot of like thirsty, for lack of a better word, content out there. But everyone, at least what I was seeing online, was very on his side for the most part, like viewing it as he was this Robin Hood hero. I remember the internet was saturated with this content around Christmas time. And everyone, I think, was like, off work or had more free time and was just scrolling, making these TikToks for a couple of weeks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So by the holidays, Luigi Mangione had already amassed a huge following. But his supporters didn’t stay united for long. Any fandom online, whether it’s Marvel shows or teen vampire romances, is bound to have rifts. But with a criminal trial, fandom infighting has actual stakes. We’ll get into that in a new tab: The rifts in the Luigi Mangione fandom. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Melkorka started reporting on Luigi Mangione’s fan base this spring. She wanted to understand why his supporters were so passionate, beyond just his looks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As I started reaching out to people and talking to people, I realized very quickly that some people were very upset that I would reach out to them asking about healthcare and that, you know, I was part of the problem as the part of the media. And so I was like, Hey, look, um, I didn’t know about this, uh, can you fill me in? I’d love to to learn more. And that’s when I really started to understand that there was actually a lot of this infighting going on online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, based on Melkorka’s reporting, there are three main factions within the Luigi fandom. The first, they think he’s a hero, standing against the broken healthcare system, regardless of whether he did it. The second faction believes he’s innocent, and they don’t like associating him with healthcare causes because that narrative makes him look guilty. And finally, the thirst accounts. Melkorka is going to walk us through these three factions. Let’s talk about the first one. The group that is that’s using this momentum to raise awareness of the broken healthcare system. Can you explain their motivations? Like how do they see Luigi? How are they portraying him on social media?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because, you know, Brian Thompson was the CEO of United Healthcare. There was not exactly a motive released right away after this crime happened. But a lot of you know evidence seems to point to Luigi having suffered through a very difficult healthcare journey himself. And I think that really resonated with so many people that they wanted to use this conversation that was going on online to further reform and to, you know, bring more awareness and, you know, hopefully change the healthcare system for the better and create a more accessible system for folks. A lot of them use personal examples or are highlighting very awful experiences that some people have had. One group they put a giant billboard truck outside of the courthouse that scrolled through all these different cases, wrongful death lawsuits. So a lot of them have started Instagram accounts, a lot of them have TikToks as well, where they create reels or slideshows that again highlight cases where people were wronged by the healthcare system, talk about Luigi and you know, the information that’s come out about his personal journey with the healthcare system and how it relates. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How did this event act as like a conduit for people’s just universal rage against the system on an emotional level?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I think it gave people a lot of empowerment to get on the internet and share their stories, to be angry about what they’ve gone through. Of course, when people are pushed, especially physically in ways that is painful, they don’t have access, you know, it’s putting them out of money. I think it did make people feel like, Hey, yeah, I feel like I’m being pushed to violence, or maybe I’m being pushed this far too. And and maybe let’s talk about it, because it’s not okay and it’s not normal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then there are the fans who believe that Luigi is totally innocent. Why don’t they get along with the healthcare advocates? How would you describe the way that they post?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So those folks believe that by tying a healthcare message to this case at all, um, and tying that to Luigi at all already implies that he’s guilty. So by talking about, you know, Luigi’s past with healthcare, that is insinuating his guilt. And they feel that Luigi is genuinely innocent, that he should not be tied at all to any sort of healthcare message because he had no healthcare message.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and that he’s a young man who is essentially being framed for this crime. So they feel that, although of course, that the healthcare message is something that a lot of them believe in, um, they think that it has no business, uh, being tied to this case whatsoever.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How do they post online? What, what is their reach, um, how do they interact with the internet at large?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say, you know, they’re less known. Obviously, as I went in, I also myself did not know about them. But the more I sort of learned about who they are, I started noticing them more often. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they also create Instagram accounts and as well as TikToks, but they really only push the message of like Luigi is innocent, here’s why. They really like to present a lot of evidence that they feel points to his innocence, instances where police may have done something where they tainted evidence, for example, or you know, did something along those lines. And then another kind of bigger aspect of I think their fighting online is they very much go to the healthcare people and sort of spark debate in the comment section, in you know, messaging, sometimes I think in person as well. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They go, you know, show up to the court cases where there’s a lot of Luigi fandom outside or supporters outside, and they, you know, engage in conversation with them as well. So yeah, I think I’ve heard some instances where it’s gotten pretty heated between some of them. Um, I think the majority of it does take place, you know, on DMs.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there is one interaction between one of my sources and one of the healthcare people where the healthcare person was saying, ‘Hey, can you stop posting about this? Because most of the donors to Luigi’s case or have the healthcare message and you are actually getting in the way of him receiving money for fighting his case.’ So yeah, there’s certainly some interesting points and back and forth with, from both sides. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Finally, uh, the third group, um, are the fan accounts that will post any update or photo of Luigi. And I love the way that you phrased it in your Wired article. You said that they are “click driven, thirst forward.” What are their motivations? Like, how do they post?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think a lot of those types of posters, they’re just posting like cute pictures of Luigi with, you know, cute filters on top and uh, you know, talking about how he’s so sexy and that they love him. Um, and I do think for many of those posters, they do feel a connection to the healthcare movement and that is why, you know, I think he’s so glamorized, that’s part of it for them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But most of it is very just like they are thirsting for Luigi. He is a good looking guy. He also is, to many of them, a very good person. They really like to go into his narrative of just like, how sweet of a guy he is. He was always helping his friends. He was just a good human being. You know, a good student. So the thirsters like to build him up as kind of this prince charming type of guy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You had also mentioned this kind of competitive nature when it comes to posting about Luigi. Can you explain that? Like how is that impacting the way that people consume information about him?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think just like journalists where we are trying to get scoops, it’s the same thing for some Luigi posters where you know, whoever can get their hands on this detail about Luigi’s trip somewhere from a family member or, you know, maybe they got access to court documents first and get to post it first. And that will lead to more followers and more engagement. And I think for some of them, in their eyes, that could lead to potentially getting closer to Luigi.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to sum it up — the healthcare advocates believe Luigi is the face of resistance to a broken system. But the supporters who believe he’s innocent think the healthcare advocates are implicating his guilt by projecting a motive onto him. And both groups are frustrated by the thirst accounts, because they think that by fixating on his looks, it discredits the work of real supporters who just want him to have a fair trial. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a kind of clout aspect that muddies this up even more. Melkorka said some accounts are incentivized to keep posting and driving up engagement, in hopes of getting Luigi’s attention. It’s not dissimilar to a fan account trying to get their favorite celebrity to respond to a post. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For his 27th birthday, Luigi put out a public letter, listing 27 things he was grateful for. Number 9: His cellmate. Number 26: Free speech. And Number 16: Latinas For Mangione. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Instagram account Latinasformangione took credit for that one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I messaged the account before the letter came out. And then I saw, you know, after the letter came out and they amassed like tens of thousands of followers. So something like that can really springboard a supporter into the public eye um, perhaps like receiving more opportunities, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think for a lot of these supporters just being acknowledged by Luigi is a huge deal. He’s someone that they really, really love and care about. So one of their heroes just acknowledged their existence. That’s major. Um, and also he receives lots of letters in prison. So the chances that he would read your letter and, and address you, I think is really, um, massive for a lot of these followers and supporters.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Earlier this year, um, on the show we covered this kind of online censorship following the killing of Charlie Kirk. How did Charlie Kirk’s death impact the online discourse around Luigi specifically? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It definitely impacted it. So, you know, many of the Luigi supporters do put Luigi Mangione and Charlie Kirk’s shooter in the same bucket of people who maybe had a bigger idea of for why they committed the crime that they committed, a driving justice motivator, whether it’s political, whether it’s healthcare reform. But they sort of see both of them as Robin Hood-esque vigilantes who, you know, weren’t just shooting to kill somebody, but were doing it for a much larger cause that a lot of people felt that they could identify with. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I did speak to some of my sources afterward the Charlie Kirk incident, and they have sort of moved away from the Mangione fandom a bit because they felt that the Charlie Kirk discourse was taken too far. It made them uncomfortable. You know, before it was Luigi and his case, and it was sort of an isolated thing, and now it’s being turned into like a quote unquote pattern. And I think for some of them it was just too far and they didn’t want to continue supporting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And then on the other hand, um, you know, the backlash against people who spoke out against Charlie Kirk following his death. Did that discourage any of the Luigi Mangione fan accounts from posting? I mean, have they changed their strategy because of the way that..yeah, just like the backlash has gotten so severe?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they actually sort of welcome it, uh, for a lot of them. Even negative engagement is good engagement. A lot of them enjoy sort of getting into the comments and, and get fighting and, and getting into these arguments. Um, so I don’t think it’s really discouraged them honestly. Um, if anything, it might open more doors for them to make more points and create more content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How would you describe the current content ecosystem around Luigi Mangione today? I mean has it changed from a year ago?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, certainly. I think that the thirsting has died down a lot, that it had a big moment. You know, right after, but that it’s, it’s died down and now it’s become a lot more, um, serious and, uh, the more serious accounts that really are fighting for, you know, healthcare reform and also his innocence,they’re the ones that are really continuing the work they do, putting in that work every day. Um, of course the thirst content doesn’t go away, but it’s just much, much less. Um, although I imagine that it will certainly pick up again in the future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s a documented link between criminal trials and fandom, like serial killers like Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy. They attracted groupies way, way before the internet existed. But what is it about Luigi’s case and the support system that he’s built that’s different?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s because it involves, you know, a justice issue, where it’s not just a good-looking serial killer who killed, you know, innocent women. It’s someone who a lot of people feel killed someone who maybe deserved it, which is very dark, but I think it represents a much more Robin Hood-esque movement than any of the other people who attracted groupies. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do think it’s interesting looking at fandoms for people like the serial killers you mentioned, because they did not have the internet at the time. And it was more about sending letters and kind of creating this fantasy world with this person in your mind. Whereas now we kind of have this big collective fandom that becomes a huge movement. I find it really interesting how the internet fuels that. Yeah, I wonder, I’m very curious to see how the, if we, you know get to trial, what how the jury will be chosen? Like, how are they gonna, how are they gonna choose those people? I genuinely don’t know. Like, how do you avoid this? You can’t, you, people don’t live under a rock. Like, how do you, how do you manage to find people that don’t probably already have like a preconceived notion about him? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melkorka Licea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s gonna be a really interesting process. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For sure. We’re going to answer those exact questions after a break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re back! Let’s open a new tab: Jury selection in the age of the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To dive into this, we need to hear from a legal expert, Daniel Medwed, professor of law at Northeastern University. He specializes in criminal law and wrongful convictions, so he’s been following this case pretty closely. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There is so much content about Luigi Mangione online, you know, both positive and negative. Why might this flood of content make the possibility of a trial even more complicated?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it makes it more complicated for the following reasons, not just that almost every juror knows about this case, but almost every juror has some preconceived idea about the virtue of his behavior or the lack of virtue, or some idea about him as a person.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in our system of law, the goal is to find not necessarily jurors who’ve never heard of the case, but jurors who can be fair and impartial.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the goal of the lawyers and the judge is to figure out who within that group can put aside their preexisting information and belief and look at the evidence with equanimity, look at the evidence, uh fairly. This almost more than any case in recent imagination, is gonna put that principle to the test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How does jury selection usually play out in high profile cases, even if they aren’t nearly as high profile as this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what happens in most trials, Morgan, is that the lawyers and the judges will ask questions of the jurors who are there to be selected. So you sort of winnow down this huge pool of prospective jurors into the 12 jurors and two alternates typically that are ultimately impaneled for the jury. And those questions are designed to ferret out jurors that might be biased or not a good fit for the case.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So both the prosecution and the defense typically have two different ways of ferreting out these jurors. One is called a challenge for cause and there is typically no cap on the number of challenges for cause that you can raise. So let’s just say there’s a juror who is like, knee deep in the Luigi fandom, uh, world and has posted a lot about how much that person loves Luigi and supports Luigi. A prosecutor could probably strike that person for cause, say that person is biased, really can’t be objective and fair in the case. And, and like likewise, right? A defense lawyer could maybe, um, strike somebody for, cause who’s made it clear on social media or elsewhere that they believe that what Luigi Mangione did was completely without justification and abhorrent and, you know, he should be given, uh, the severest sanction possible. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the second mechanism, and I think this is what’s gonna be really interesting, Morgan, it’s called a peremptory challenge. And both sides, each side has a set number of peremptory challenges depending on the jurisdiction and the type of case. And what a peremptory challenge is, is you can strike somebody without articulating the basis for striking them. You don’t have to say, ‘I think they’re biased,’ you’ll just say ‘I don’t want number 12. I don’t want number 26.’ And the idea here is maybe you don’t have anything concrete to hang your head on to suggest that the person is biased against your case, but you have a sneaking suspicion that they wouldn’t be good for your side, and so you’ll end up using your peremptory challenges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a case like this, Morgan, I think peremptory challenges are gonna be the name of the game because the lawyers are really gonna try to ferret out and figure out who within the pool is gonna really, you know, steer the jury in one way, way or the other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So there’s this social media challenge where like there are so much just like content about Luigi, good and bad, but then there’s this other thing offline, and it’s the fact that a lot of people in the US have been screwed over by health insurance. How does that affect this, this kind of jury selection process?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Most Americans have to, at some point in their lives, deal with hospitals, health insurance, doctors, and many of us are frustrated by how health insurance companies respond to our claims. And so the idea of potentially exacting revenge against someone from a very profitable high profile health insurance company is something that a lot of people could relate to, not necessarily in terms of inflicting violence. I hope that’s not something people can relate to, but the idea of expressing extreme displeasure with how big insurance companies treat their clients, clients who are often in the throes of medical crises and have mounting bills. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think the way that this could affect jury selection, Morgan, is there are gonna be lots of questions, especially from the prosecution of prospective jurors: What is your experience with the insurance industry? Have you ever filed a claim that was denied, right? What is your view of vigilante justice? If you are upset about how somebody has treated you or a loved one, do you think the appropriate mechanism is to go to law enforcement or to inflict revenge, um, at a private level? So I think there’ll be lots of questions that are, that are designed to probe into whether a witness is biased.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like you said, there are pretty clear cut examples here of, uh, reasons why someone might be, you know, cut out from the jury. And that could be, you know, running a thirst account for Luigi, uh, be running a healthcare reform account, or even just being like very vocally anti Luigi. But then those are all people who are posting online. What about internet consumption habits? Like, how does that play a role here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So one thing that’s happened more and more in the last decade or so in high profile cases is the judges are asking jurors, prospective jurors, and the litigants are asking prospective jurors about their media consumption habits.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Back in the day before the internet took off, some of these questions would relate to newspaper and television consumption habits. You know, do you read the New York Times? Do you watch ABC news, things like that. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now what we’re seeing is judges and litigants asking prospective jurors: What news media do you consume online? What websites do you go to? Are you active on social media? What have you seen on social media? And sometimes the failure of a judge to do this in a high profile case can create problems down the road.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Is there any precedent for this? Like, what was the turning point for, uh, for lawyers to actually pay attention to potential jurors’ internet habits?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think the turning point Morgan, was the Boston Marathon bombing case. So the Boston Marathon bombing occurred back in 2013, pretty long ago. Um, and the one man who was charged with the crime, Jahar \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tsarnaev\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, went to trial in federal court in Boston, very high profile case. So what happened, and the reason why I’m thinking of this case, Morgan, is the judge didn’t do a great a job of ferreting out the online presence of the jurors. And ultimately, that caused problems on appeal because the defense said…it turned out that some of the jurors had consumed a lot of information and seen a lot about Jahar \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tsarnaev\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, and they hadn’t disclosed that during jury selection, in part, because they hadn’t been asked thoroughly. And it created all sorts of problems that delayed the resolution of the case. So I look at that case as one, as sort of a bellwether, um, or like a canary in the coal mine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, it’s one thing to ask, you know, like what news sites do you read? How many hours a day do you spend on TikTok? But it’s, it’s another thing to ask like, what subreddits do you visit? Do you read fan fiction? You know, like these, it all seems a bit invasive. Where do you like, where is the line here? Like, what will people actually fess up to?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t know where the line is. The judge will probably probe and prod as far as possible, but that doesn’t necessarily ensure, as you suggest, that the jurors will be forthcoming. And what’s especially kind of complicated here is the fact that Luigi Mangione is this, this sex symbol.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I imagine that some of these sites, um, have sexual or sexual adjacent, if that’s even a word, content. And so jurors who have visited those sites might be reluctant, they might be embarrassed to admit that they go to those sites, but yet that information might be relevant to the lawyers and the judge in figuring out whether the juror can be fair and impartial.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s fair to say that the judges and the lawyers are gonna push the line as close as possible to invading the privacy and autonomy of the prospective jurors. Some jurors are gonna push back and there aren’t that many great mechanisms for figuring out whether the juror is not being completely honest and transparent in their answers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, looking forward, once a jury has been selected, despite all of the challenges that Daniel just laid out, prosecutors might still face another hurdle. Let’s open one more tab: What is jury nullification? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If one of these three pending, uh, cases does go to trial, people keep throwing around this word: jury nullification. What is that and why is it relevant to this case specifically?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So here’s what jury nullification is: Iit’s an ancient power. It dates back to ye old England, Morgan, that basically says the jury may reject the law, they may reject the facts, and they may acquit the defendant. Even if under the law, the government has proven the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Usually what jurors are told to do, and usually what I hope or presume they do, is they act in a fair fashion and if they think the evidence proves guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, in a criminal case, they vote to convict. And if they think it doesn’t, they vote to acquit. Jury nullification is when the jury is so moved by the defendant and by the defendant’s cause and by the circumstances that they basically ignore the law, they ignore the facts, and they try to send a message to society by acquitting the defendant.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you give any examples of how this has played out in the past in also similar high profile cases?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Absolutely. I mean, jury nullification is, it’s like a stick of dynamite. It’s very, very dangerous because it is a way, to use sort of the dynamite analogy, for a jury to blow up the case. To just blow it up because they believe based on their own conscience, their own ideology, their own ethical or moral compasses, that that’s the right thing to do. And depending on your vantage point, what’s right for one person might not be right for the other person. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, for instance, one notorious example of jury nullification, which history does not view kindly for good reason related to the trial in Mississippi of the men who killed Emmett Till. And a lot of people think of this as the case that that triggered or sparked the civil rights movement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emmett Till was a 14-year-old Black boy from Chicago. In 1955, while Emmett was visiting relatives in Mississippi, he and a few other boys stopped at a grocery store to buy candy. There, a white woman accused him of whistling at her. There are conflicting witness reports of what happened, but remember, this was the South during Jim Crow. In retaliation, a group of white men kidnapped Emmett from his great-uncle’s home and brutally beat him to death. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They were not sheepish about this. They were bragging about the role in killing Emmett Till. And those men faced murder charges and an all white jury nullified, even though they had confessed to the crime. All the physical evidence, all the direct and circumstantial evidence pointed to them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So during nullification, when, when people talk about it. They often think about it in a way that will sort of vindicate the good person, vindicate somebody who has done something noble, even if, uh, it’s technically a crime. But it can also sometimes be used to excuse morally abhorrent conduct.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the case of Luigi Mangione, there’s just so much content about him, good and bad, but you know, just a lot of content. How might that influence a jury to nullify, even if they’re, you know, picked to be fair and impartial? Even then, how might this current content dichotomy influence that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s fair to say, it seems as though the vast majority of the online content is favorable to Mangione, right? Lots of fans. Lots of fans of his sort of Robin Hood-like behavior, taking on big insurance. Lots of fans of how he looks right and how he acts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that makes me think that there could be some stealth jurors, folks who get onto the jury who maybe haven’t quite disclosed the full extent of their fandom.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or even if there aren’t stealth jurors, there are just people who have a passing understanding of the case and they can be fair. But when they’re sitting there and they’re really thinking about the case. It’s quite possible they could nullify. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But just to play devil’s advocate for a moment, again, it’s one thing in the abstract to think about someone’s behavior and hold it high, to consider it to be noble, to consider it to be justified. It’s one thing that we can all do. But then when you’re in the courtroom and you’re seeing that person every day sitting at defense table and you’re listening to the evidence documenting in excruciating detail what he did in premeditated and deliberate fashion, kill a person he had never met and had no personal beef with, it might become a little bit harder to nullify \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Looking back at the last year and watching Luigi Mancini’s case unfold, what can we learn about the future of criminal law and criminal cases in the age of big content? Like do you have any predictions?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s both good and bad. In terms of the, the good, I think increasing access to information in general is a good thing. I mean, one thing I don’t know, that I bet you know and a lot of your peers know, is whether people are more informed about the criminal legal process because of cases like Luigi Mangione. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In other words, are there people who are fans of Luigi Mangione and as a part of their fandom have learned about the law, learned about criminal justice, learned about the difference between state court and federal court, learned about how the, the death penalty works or doesn’t work? That’s a good thing. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, the bad thing, of course, is for one, could it breed copycats? If people are putting Luigi Mangione up on a pedestal, are there other people out there thinking, hey, vigilante justice is okay? My issue is X. Maybe I should kill someone to advance the conversation in X. That would be a very, very bad thing, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In addition, another bad thing is, um, the meme isn’t always accurate. The description online isn’t always accurate. One thing we know has been a real issue in recent years is how do we figure out fact from something that’s not a fact? How do we verify the legitimacy of information? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Well thanks so much for joining us, Daniel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Medwed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you, Morgan. It was my pleasure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s where Luigi Mangione’s case stands today. During the first week of December, around the one year anniversary of the shooting, Luigi appeared in New York state court, where he faces murder charges. This pre-trial hearing determined whether the evidence gathered during his arrest could be used in trial. His defense team argued that his backpack was searched without a warrant and therefore the 3D printed gun and handwritten notes allegedly found when he was arrested should be excluded. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">His most ardent supporters came prepared. Some of them have been attending his court appearances since last December. For this recent hearing, some fans began camping in front of the courthouse days in advance. They wore sashes that said “Free Luigi” and traded handmade beaded friendship bracelets, like Swifties did during the Eras tour. Those who couldn’t get into the courtroom rallied outside, even as temperatures dipped below freezing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luigi is scheduled to appear in New York’s federal court in January. Prosecutors in that case are seeking the death penalty. We’ll be keeping an eye on the proceedings, but even if we close these tabs today, his fans, at least, will keep theirs open. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, and edited by Jen Chien.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Chris Egusa is our senior editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends too, or even your enemies or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Also, we want to hear from you. Email us at CloseAllTabs@kqed.org Follow us on Instagram @CloseAllTabsPod or TikTok @CloseAllTabs. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "what-happened-to-purple-moon-games-for-girls",
"title": "What Happened to Purple Moon Games for Girls?",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thirty years ago, video games were predominantly marketed to boys. Nintendo and Sega ran TV ads featuring boys proclaiming how “awesome” and “powerful” the latest system was. And the biggest computer games tended to revolve around male-coded activities like shooting or combat. But in the late ‘90s, a small indie game studio called Purple Moon set out to change that — creating story-rich, emotionally complex games designed to welcome girls into the world of computers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Close All Tabs producer Maya Cueva looks back on her own childhood experience with Purple Moon and talks with founder Brenda Laurel about the company’s legacy, its impact on girls in tech, and how it all came to an abrupt end.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Editor’s note: We updated one line to add context about a character in one of the Purple Moon games, which may affect how the character is understood.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6059143811\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://neogaian.org/wp/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda Laurel\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, interactive games designer, creator and founder of Purple Moon\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/girl-games-90s-fun-feminist/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ‘Girl Games’ of the ’90s Were Fun and Feminist\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Drew Dakessian, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WIRED \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/conscious-ux-leading-human-centered-design-in-the-age-of-ai-designing-the-future-of-artificial-intelligence-with-compassion-inclusion-and-openness_brenda-laurel_rikki-teeters/56629353/#edition=74110991&idiq=86310248\">Conscious UX: Leading Human-Centered Design in the Age of AI: Designing the Future of Artificial Intelligence with Compassion, Inclusion, and Openness \u003c/a>— Rikki Teeters, Don Norman, Brenda Laurel \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.si.edu/media/NMAH/NMAH-AC1498_Transcript_BrendaLaurel.pdf\">Brenda Laurel\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Christopher Weaver, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>Smithsonian Institution, Lemelson Center for The Study of Invention and Innovation \u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.lifewire.com/women-in-video-games-11690645\">Trailblazing Women in Video Gaming: Meet the Pioneers Who Shaped Design History\u003c/a> — D.S. Cohen, \u003ci>Lifewire\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Fighting over access to the family computer is a core childhood memory for Zillennials. Millennials too. I would spend hours on the living room PC playing games like Neopets and Club Penguin and Toontown. In the 90s and early 2000s, computer games from Oregon Trail to The Sims were super popular. But a lot of computer games were targeted toward young boys, while girls were largely left out of the conversation. That is, until Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon was an American developer of girls’ computer games based in Mountain View, California. The company was created in the 90s to disrupt the assumption that girls aren’t gamers. And it was really successful. In fact, Close All Tabs producer Maya Cueva played Purple Moon computer games all the time as a little girl. Until the company vanished completely. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I’m passing this episode off to our producer Maya, who’s gonna take us back to the 90s, before the whole girls and stem push was a thing. We’re gonna check out Purple Moon when it was an upstart little game studio, when its founder had an entirely new vision for what computer games could be. And we’ll try to get to the bottom of what really happened to Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Purple Moon\u003c/b>\u003cb> Intro: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do it again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My sister Olivia and I are watching a video on Youtube of our favorite computer game that we used to love as kids. From the 90s. This one is called the Starfire Soccer challenge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pass the ball, Fireflies! Please! Look, I’m begging you, pass! Would you please pass? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you remember any of this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We tried to find a way to actually play the games, but no luck. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we can’t play them, but we can watch the videos. We can watch the YouTube replays. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, like most old computer games, we’re stuck experiencing them vicariously through someone else. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s out of the center. Pass it here. Pass it over here. I’m open. That means you Dana, pass the ball. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The computer game follows the character Ginger and her teammates of the Fireflies soccer team as they prepare for the end-of-the-season game against their rival team, the Bulldogs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fireflies, Fireflies, go team! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was younger, the game’s animation seems so advanced. But visually, it’s actually pretty basic. It looks like an interactive comic. The images flip like a storybook, and the characters’ mouths don’t move when they talk. It is effective though. Animated soccer players rush towards each other, dashing down a green field surrounded by rowdy fans. The sound design is really immersive too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey Charla, you played really well today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh she’s so nice. So you learn how to be a good friend. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Starfire Soccer Challenge was just one of the games from Purple Moon. Purple Moon was a company that developed games targeted at young girls. They wanted to get girls into tech. And as a kid, I was obsessed with these games. They’re what got me into computer games in the first place. I still remember turning on my family’s PC in the basement, the humming sound of the computer starting up, and the excitement I felt putting the Purple Moon disk into the CD drive. Then the logo would play. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Purple Moon:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just hearing that intro gets me excited. These games shaped how I connected with computers and gaming. They expanded my imagination and put me in scenarios where I could choose my own adventure, from competing to win the Starfire Soccer Championship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starfire soccer challenge! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To exploring trails and a magical forest. There was even a game called Adventure Maker, which allowed you to make up your own scenarios and scenes in the game. For that era, it was kind of a revolutionary idea, especially to have that kind of decision making geared towards young girls. In the 90s, gaming was definitely seen as a space for boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Super Nintendo Commercial: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When you decide to step up to this kind of power, this kind of challenge, there’s only one place to come. The games of Super Nintendo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sega Genesis Commercial: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Young Bobby Angles has a problem. He needs to earn the respect of his peers. So he gets Sega Genesis, the ultimate action system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While young girls were primarily marketed Barbie games. Although I can’t lie, I did love this one Barbie fashion game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Barbie Fashion Designer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Making clothes for me is really easy and fun. Let me show you around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And another Barbie detective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Detective Barbie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re glad you’re here. You can help us find Ken. We’ve got a few tools that will help us do some super sleuthing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But mostly, these Barbie games felt like they were teaching us that girls should just love to dress up and to ride horses. With the Purple Moon computer games, I had a universe to play in that actually felt like it was for young girls. In one of the games, Secret Paths in the Forest, you learn about each character’s life and the insecurities and real traumas they were going through as teenage girls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Secret Paths in The Forest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My mom’s gone, and now birthdays just aren’t the same anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I loved these games as a kid. And then, Purple Moon just stopped making new games. And without more games I could relate to, my love for gaming faded as I got older. So now, in my 30s and often nostalgic for my childhood, I got curious what happened to these games that had such an impact on me? And what did Purple Moon do for girl gamers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I did a little research. Let’s start with the first tab. Who created Purple Moon and where are they now? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After some Googling, I was able to track down the creator of the Purple Moon computer games, Brenda Laurel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s always thrilling to meet someone whose lives were touched by the games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda is in her 70s now and was a pioneer in the tech world. I wondered how hard it must have been to work in a male-dominated field in the 90s, especially creating games that weren’t meant for guys. So when she agreed to sit down with me for an interview, I geeked out a little bit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As I’ve mentioned, you know, I’ve been a big fan of the games since I was little, of all the Purple Moon games. Like all of these games were so important to me. I think also just in me becoming like a storyteller, too, because of just how the games were presented. You know, it’s so exciting for me to get to talk to you. I think my inner child is like, “oh my God!” Fan girling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think it’s great. I think we we did get some things right about narrative and storytelling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda’s introduction to the gaming industry happened completely by chance. In the 70s, before she ever dreamt up Purple Moon, Brenda was studying theater at Ohio State University. That’s when one of her friends decided to start a personal computer company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was studying for my PhD generals looking for work and and they said, why don’t you come over and help us do some interactive fairy tales for this little machine with 2K of RAM? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This early tech was all new to Brenda, but she fell in love with it immediately. This same friend went on to create computer games through a company called Cybervision. Brenda’s experience in theater made her a perfect candidate for the type of games they were working on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was the period of time in the theater where actors were interacting with audiences in in productions like Hair and Dionysus in ’69. I had just directed uh uh pretty improvisational version of Robin Hood where the troupe went around and, you know, and kids would talk to them. And if an audience member suggested something, they would be required to change what they were doing to accommodate it. So it was kind of like a group improv. For me, that was a model that I could immediately and directly use in thinking about how to construct an interactive game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Working at Cybervision felt like a dream for Brenda. She got to combine her theatrical training with a newfound love of technology, all within a supportive workplace. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everybody was lovely. There wasn’t an a a drop of sexism anywhere. People were incredibly kind and smart and I treasured them all. So I was fortunate in that way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After working at Cybervision, she landed at Atari in the 1980s. Atari was a pioneering video game and computer company. They made some of the OG arcade hits like Pong and Space Invaders. This was the beginning of the tech boom and early tech innovation, and very much a boys club. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was extremely male dominated and there were subcultures of males inside of that culture that were even harder to deal with. You know, I had to, I remember my first day at Atari, I had to kick the boys out of the women’s room because that’s where they were smoking weed. And I said, you know what? There’s a woman in the house, I need to use the bathroom. Could you guys clear, you know? I learned to be pretty bitchy to great positive effect, I will add. Dropping the occasional F bomb at a at a staff meeting was always good for getting people’s attention in those days. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After Atari, Brenda went on to work at various tech companies, including Activision and even Apple. But at almost every stop, Brenda felt like games were targeted for boys, while girls were largely left out of the conversation. So she began to ask herself — how could she get more girls interested in computers? That’s a new tab. How Purple Moon changed the game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 1992, Brenda got a job at Interval Research, a research and technology incubator. Brenda was able to convince management to do a study on girls and games. At the time, research showed that parents were much more likely to buy computers for boys than for girls, even if girls expressed interest. And female gamers in the 90s were only about 10 to 25% of the gaming population, depending on the country. So there was a large gap in computer literacy for young girls. Brenda wanted to learn why. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Generally speaking, you didn’t see little girls putting their hands on the machine because they would say, “I’m afraid I’ll make a mistake. I don’t want to touch it. It’s for boys.” So there were gender biases built into the way girls thought about how they might relate to technology. And our thinking as we spoke about it was as we move into a more technological world, they’ve got to get comfortable with it so that they have access to the power and help and joy, you know, that they might get from it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then, as we went out and started interviewing little girls, what we discovered was we couldn’t ask what’s your favorite computer game because there weren’t any for them, and they weren’t really playing. So we changed the question to how do girls and boys play and how is it different? What we learned in the course of talking with these girls is that it’s a hell of a hard time of life to be a tween girl. There’s all kinds of social stuff coming from the way women and girls relate to each other in same sex groups. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so they had issues, not just about technology, but about life that we were seeing, you know, writ large and everything they said didn’t matter what city we were in, we were hearing the same thing. “I feel like everything happens and I can’t do anything about it. I don’t know who I am yet. I don’t know how to help people. Oh, I wish I hadn’t made that decision.” You know, there’s a lot of negative stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So after interviewing over a thousand young girls and about 500 young boys on their real life experiences navigating their pre-teen and teenage years, Brenda had an idea. What if she could develop a game that was entirely meant for young girls through their eyes? One that could have a positive impact on their lives. And so the idea for Purple Moon was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It wasn’t easy to get into the computer gaming market with games geared for girls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In those days, these boys games were sold to boys in stores that were frequented by boys and you know, you just weren’t gonna put it in front of a kid unless you could get it into a toy store or some other kind of retail establishment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many hands helped launch Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For sure it takes a village, when I say my games or I designed this, I mean me and, you know, sixty other people who were sitting in the studio or we had wonderful writers and artists and thinkers and researchers and programmers. Uh so yeah, we worked together like a well-oiled machine, except when we didn’t. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon eventually became an independent company. The first Purple Moon game was released in 1997 and called Rockett’s New School. Visually, it had the same animated comic strip vibe as the other Purple Moon games that would come later. The game allows you to play as the character, Rockett Movado, on her first day of eighth grade at her new school. A PA announcement greets you as the game begins. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome, students. It’s another fantastic year at Whistling Pines Junior High! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi. Listen, I’m sorry to just kind of intrude, but I’m pretty sure you’re new, right? Yeah, I am. My name’s Rockett. Wow, really? Well anyway, I’m Jessie. So you wanna walk in with me, Rockett? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The idea was with Rockett that you could make a choice. Something unfolds and you have a moment. How do I feel about this? We called it emotional navigation. And so you would click on thought bubbles. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Venturing into the cafeteria scene alone could be fun. This is terrible. Not even a single friend to sit with. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you know, I feel terrible, I want to cry. Why don’t I make up with her? Hey, maybe Charla can help. You pick one of those, the thing plays out. If you don’t like what happens, you can go back and change it and see what happens instead. So this kind of social and emotional flexibility is incredibly important to girls that age. And having a sense of personal agency and a sense that you can make choices that matter and change your mind. These are really important milestones in that hard journey from being a little girl to a teenager. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So my mission sort of changed from a tech equity one to a how can I build something here, design something here that will help little girls have a better time in their lives and achieve greater self-esteem and feel the sense of personal agency coming to life. So that’s really why I did it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I love that. I mean, that’s why I really think I love the game so much is because you also were able to choose your own adventure and kind of have autonomy with your choice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I think even even though I was so young, I still felt like I felt power you know, I felt empowered by that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It worked. It worked! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time, I don’t think I realized how the ability to choose my own adventures in the Purple Moon games helped shape some of my decision making as a young girl. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the idea was not so much choose your own adventure, but choose your own response. Choose your path of navigation through this relatively complex social situation. I’m so proud that just about every scenario you see in any of those games comes from the girls we talk to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another way Purple Moon was way ahead of its time was with its website. Through it, they found entirely new ways to engage girl gamers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tools for making a website were not easily available. So putting that together, Christy Rosenthal led that team inside of Purple Moon and um was an astoundingly successful website. We were beating Disney.com for hits and dwell time for at least the first six months of our lives as a company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. Yeah, I don’t think I ever went on the website. I just always had the CD-ROM games.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a whole different world over there. You could write articles for the Whistling Pines newspaper and then we would, you know, incorporate ideas into the storyline. So we were having a kind of narrative conversation with girls on the web, getting ideas for what we might do in the games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Purple Moon website was pretty popular, and one reporter for Wired described it as an online space where she could make friends and be herself. It was like an early social networking site just for girls, where they could send each other online postcards and learn about new characters. Like I mentioned earlier, the Purple Moon games weren’t exactly visually advanced. I asked Brenda what it was like to design these games with the limited technology of the 90s. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were pretty much animated comic strips. And the reason for that was that we didn’t have the processing power to do good enough lip sync animation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And uh and the computers that were around that day. And we could never get it right. It would always lag just enough to make you crazy. I mean we really tried it, but we couldn’t get there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While a considerable amount of research went into making the Purple Moon games, not everyone liked the direction the games took. There were definitely some critics at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We got blowback on these games both from men who thought they were stupid and from hardcore feminists who thought girls ought to behave differently. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll get into that. After this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re back. Time for a new tab. Purple moon gets pushback. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So after the first Purple Moon game, Rockett’s New School was released, a reporter for the New York Times gave a scathing review. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The guy who reviewed the games in the New York Times thought they were just silly. Like, why would you care about who you’re going to be friends with in high school? You know, boys have a very different way of establishing social status in peer groups, generally speaking, we’re all, you know, we’re talking about averages, not everybody, but there’s a very different method. And so when a man looked at it, it’s like, what? Where’s the competition? You know, nobody’s shooting anybody. There are no monsters, no racing cars. What are you thinking? You know, it was that kind of stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it just delighted me. I thought, I have alienated the right person. One of our strategies here with the whole branding of the games as it evolved was to make sure that they gave boys cooties. We didn’t want boys to play them. The reason was that if your big brother played it and had the same response as the New York Times critic did and said, “this game is really lame”. You’d probably go, “Oh, I better not play it in front of John. ” You know, “oh, it’s not cool. I guess I shouldn’t do it.” That happens, you know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what we wanted was for to present something that girls said, “I own this. You know, I own this. And and you don’t get to tell me whether it’s any good or not.” So, we we made purple packaging, you know, we did all kinds of stuff to to alienate male players from picking it up and buying it because of that business of judgment coming from boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Male critics of the games didn’t surprise Brenda. What did surprise her was criticism from some women and feminists who didn’t like the games either. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were silly ones and there were reasonably good ones. You know, there’s an issue about girls behaving in a way that’s considered to be badly. Um, Gossip, exclusion, breaking of affiliations. These are the ways that girls covertly establish their social position, generally speaking. Those are tools that girls and women use. So that was part of it. They didn’t see queer people. Well, in 1995, ’96, we weren’t talking about queer people eleven years old. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmm hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, that that was a step too far. We didn’t have religion in the game either for the same reason. And it was just like stuff you didn’t talk about yet. Today, if I were doing it today, I would certainly deal with gender fluidity, with trans kids. I all of that stuff would come into play. But in in that period of time, that wasn’t possible. And yet, generally speaking, there was nothing but praise from women and educators and coaches and stuff like that. And and the sales were great. We were beating John Madden football for the first quarter that we were out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Critics also had issues with the research conducted to create Purple Moon. Some thought that the girls they interviewed may have already internalized gender stereotypes about what girls should like based on their age. They felt that Brenda and her team were just perpetuating the same gender tropes from their data. There was also criticism surrounding racial stereotypes in the games. One article I found stated that the game used cliches, quote, “such as the snobby popular blonde girl and the smart Asian with glasses.” Brenda felt differently about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I look at the games, I don’t see no racial stereotyping. And it certainly didn’t cause us to make any changes because, you know, we looked at it, we took it seriously, we evaluated it. And we came to the decision that it was incorrect. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While watching the replay of my favorite game, the Starfire Soccer Challenge on YouTube, I did notice how Miko, one of the characters in the game who is Asian, is depicted as a Samurai with a sword as she runs down the soccer field. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re scared now. They’re intimidated. They’re ugh.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll be honest, I cringed a bit at first at this image. But I later learned that the “Samurai Miko” character was actually designed by an Asian-American artist named Grace Chen, which definitely adds important context. While I don’t think the games are perfect, I do admire that Brenda and her team did extensive research with real young girls at the time to hear about what they were actually going through. And some articles stated that the Starfire Soccer Challenge game was beneficial. One even called it, quote, “an outstanding example of digital technology supporting positive emotional development.” I wonder what the games could look like now if they were created today. What would young girls, boys, or non-binary players desire to see in the games? And how could developers correct some of the cliches seen in the games in the 90s? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They wouldn’t be the same. We might get to some of the same emotional and ethical places that we did in the original games. It would take a boatload of new research because just as those girls I interviewed weren’t me at 10, um, the girls today aren’t you. And we need to go out and talk to them, learn what their lives are like, you know, figure it out. And I’d be tempted the second time around to build a game for little boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda never got the opportunity to make a game for boys. In 1999, after only three years, the company folded. But why did this happen? That’s a new tab. What happened to Purple Moon? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 1999, Purple Moon’s biggest funder, Paul Allen, decided to shift his focus to the e-commerce sector, which was beginning to take off at the time. Ultimately, he decided to take his money out of Purple Moon. This had very serious consequences for the company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We got the news from the board that they were gonna shut us down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmm. Wow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We we had eighty people expecting their paycheck that day. They had frozen our bank accounts. My CEO Nancy Deyo and I got in the car with the CFO. We remembered that we’d made a deposit on our office space with a different bank. So we got in the car, raced over there, took that money out in cash and gave everybody their pay. And they ended up selling the the company to Mattel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After the board decided to shut Purple Moon down, Brenda and others were terminated from the company. Then, once Mattel bought the gaming studio, the Purple Moon games eventually stopped being created for good. Brenda was devastated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Took me about a year to recover personally from that. After we shut down the website, we put a goodbye message on the on the front so if you logged into it, it would say, “Hi, we’ve had to leave. We’re so sorry we’ll miss you. ” Well, it turns out that if you were already on the site, if you didn’t leave, if you just sort of kept that window open, your friends could come into the site and join. We had like 300 kids joining Purple Moon after it was shut down because they were sneaking into the side door of the website. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even though Purple Moon’s closure was bittersweet, Brenda felt that the company had accomplished what it set out to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I absolutely feel like we hit the goal of making games that would enrich and enhance the lives of little girls. I feel like it was, you know, act of love from all of us, um who worked on it creatively. And I feel like we succeeded. I know that because I hear from people like you who tell me this changed my life. That’s what we wanted to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And, you know, girls would have ended up getting literate with computers anyway, as soon as the internet became something you could actually get to uh easily. A lot of the “I’m afraid to put my hands on the keyboard” stuff went away. I mean, we probably helped with that transition. And it wasn’t very long until females were at least half, if not more than half, of of the audience on the web for everything. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda began envisioning Purple Moon at a time when computer games weren’t designed with girls in mind. Since the 90s, the percentage of female gamers has grown to 47% in the US. Brenda wouldn’t claim credit for that entire change, but it’s hard to deny Purple Moon’s influence on girl gamers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe my love for gaming started because the Purple Moon games felt accessible. And maybe it ended because CD-ROMs eventually became obsolete, and I never quite felt like the video game universe was meant for me. Whatever the case, the world of Purple Moon was a place I felt like I belonged, where I had agency. And for young Maya, that was everything. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much, Brenda. This was so great to get to talk to you. I feel like little Maya is so happy right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Give little Maya a hug from me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was reported and produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED Podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also! We want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or TikTok at “close all tabs.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thirty years ago, video games were predominantly marketed to boys. Nintendo and Sega ran TV ads featuring boys proclaiming how “awesome” and “powerful” the latest system was. And the biggest computer games tended to revolve around male-coded activities like shooting or combat. But in the late ‘90s, a small indie game studio called Purple Moon set out to change that — creating story-rich, emotionally complex games designed to welcome girls into the world of computers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Close All Tabs producer Maya Cueva looks back on her own childhood experience with Purple Moon and talks with founder Brenda Laurel about the company’s legacy, its impact on girls in tech, and how it all came to an abrupt end.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Editor’s note: We updated one line to add context about a character in one of the Purple Moon games, which may affect how the character is understood.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6059143811\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://neogaian.org/wp/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda Laurel\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, interactive games designer, creator and founder of Purple Moon\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/girl-games-90s-fun-feminist/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ‘Girl Games’ of the ’90s Were Fun and Feminist\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Drew Dakessian, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WIRED \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/conscious-ux-leading-human-centered-design-in-the-age-of-ai-designing-the-future-of-artificial-intelligence-with-compassion-inclusion-and-openness_brenda-laurel_rikki-teeters/56629353/#edition=74110991&idiq=86310248\">Conscious UX: Leading Human-Centered Design in the Age of AI: Designing the Future of Artificial Intelligence with Compassion, Inclusion, and Openness \u003c/a>— Rikki Teeters, Don Norman, Brenda Laurel \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.si.edu/media/NMAH/NMAH-AC1498_Transcript_BrendaLaurel.pdf\">Brenda Laurel\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Christopher Weaver, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>Smithsonian Institution, Lemelson Center for The Study of Invention and Innovation \u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.lifewire.com/women-in-video-games-11690645\">Trailblazing Women in Video Gaming: Meet the Pioneers Who Shaped Design History\u003c/a> — D.S. Cohen, \u003ci>Lifewire\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Fighting over access to the family computer is a core childhood memory for Zillennials. Millennials too. I would spend hours on the living room PC playing games like Neopets and Club Penguin and Toontown. In the 90s and early 2000s, computer games from Oregon Trail to The Sims were super popular. But a lot of computer games were targeted toward young boys, while girls were largely left out of the conversation. That is, until Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon was an American developer of girls’ computer games based in Mountain View, California. The company was created in the 90s to disrupt the assumption that girls aren’t gamers. And it was really successful. In fact, Close All Tabs producer Maya Cueva played Purple Moon computer games all the time as a little girl. Until the company vanished completely. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I’m passing this episode off to our producer Maya, who’s gonna take us back to the 90s, before the whole girls and stem push was a thing. We’re gonna check out Purple Moon when it was an upstart little game studio, when its founder had an entirely new vision for what computer games could be. And we’ll try to get to the bottom of what really happened to Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Purple Moon\u003c/b>\u003cb> Intro: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do it again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My sister Olivia and I are watching a video on Youtube of our favorite computer game that we used to love as kids. From the 90s. This one is called the Starfire Soccer challenge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pass the ball, Fireflies! Please! Look, I’m begging you, pass! Would you please pass? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you remember any of this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We tried to find a way to actually play the games, but no luck. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we can’t play them, but we can watch the videos. We can watch the YouTube replays. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, like most old computer games, we’re stuck experiencing them vicariously through someone else. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s out of the center. Pass it here. Pass it over here. I’m open. That means you Dana, pass the ball. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The computer game follows the character Ginger and her teammates of the Fireflies soccer team as they prepare for the end-of-the-season game against their rival team, the Bulldogs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fireflies, Fireflies, go team! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was younger, the game’s animation seems so advanced. But visually, it’s actually pretty basic. It looks like an interactive comic. The images flip like a storybook, and the characters’ mouths don’t move when they talk. It is effective though. Animated soccer players rush towards each other, dashing down a green field surrounded by rowdy fans. The sound design is really immersive too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey Charla, you played really well today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh she’s so nice. So you learn how to be a good friend. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Starfire Soccer Challenge was just one of the games from Purple Moon. Purple Moon was a company that developed games targeted at young girls. They wanted to get girls into tech. And as a kid, I was obsessed with these games. They’re what got me into computer games in the first place. I still remember turning on my family’s PC in the basement, the humming sound of the computer starting up, and the excitement I felt putting the Purple Moon disk into the CD drive. Then the logo would play. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Purple Moon:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just hearing that intro gets me excited. These games shaped how I connected with computers and gaming. They expanded my imagination and put me in scenarios where I could choose my own adventure, from competing to win the Starfire Soccer Championship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starfire soccer challenge! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To exploring trails and a magical forest. There was even a game called Adventure Maker, which allowed you to make up your own scenarios and scenes in the game. For that era, it was kind of a revolutionary idea, especially to have that kind of decision making geared towards young girls. In the 90s, gaming was definitely seen as a space for boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Super Nintendo Commercial: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When you decide to step up to this kind of power, this kind of challenge, there’s only one place to come. The games of Super Nintendo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sega Genesis Commercial: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Young Bobby Angles has a problem. He needs to earn the respect of his peers. So he gets Sega Genesis, the ultimate action system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While young girls were primarily marketed Barbie games. Although I can’t lie, I did love this one Barbie fashion game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Barbie Fashion Designer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Making clothes for me is really easy and fun. Let me show you around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And another Barbie detective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Detective Barbie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re glad you’re here. You can help us find Ken. We’ve got a few tools that will help us do some super sleuthing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But mostly, these Barbie games felt like they were teaching us that girls should just love to dress up and to ride horses. With the Purple Moon computer games, I had a universe to play in that actually felt like it was for young girls. In one of the games, Secret Paths in the Forest, you learn about each character’s life and the insecurities and real traumas they were going through as teenage girls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Secret Paths in The Forest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My mom’s gone, and now birthdays just aren’t the same anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I loved these games as a kid. And then, Purple Moon just stopped making new games. And without more games I could relate to, my love for gaming faded as I got older. So now, in my 30s and often nostalgic for my childhood, I got curious what happened to these games that had such an impact on me? And what did Purple Moon do for girl gamers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I did a little research. Let’s start with the first tab. Who created Purple Moon and where are they now? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After some Googling, I was able to track down the creator of the Purple Moon computer games, Brenda Laurel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s always thrilling to meet someone whose lives were touched by the games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda is in her 70s now and was a pioneer in the tech world. I wondered how hard it must have been to work in a male-dominated field in the 90s, especially creating games that weren’t meant for guys. So when she agreed to sit down with me for an interview, I geeked out a little bit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As I’ve mentioned, you know, I’ve been a big fan of the games since I was little, of all the Purple Moon games. Like all of these games were so important to me. I think also just in me becoming like a storyteller, too, because of just how the games were presented. You know, it’s so exciting for me to get to talk to you. I think my inner child is like, “oh my God!” Fan girling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think it’s great. I think we we did get some things right about narrative and storytelling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda’s introduction to the gaming industry happened completely by chance. In the 70s, before she ever dreamt up Purple Moon, Brenda was studying theater at Ohio State University. That’s when one of her friends decided to start a personal computer company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was studying for my PhD generals looking for work and and they said, why don’t you come over and help us do some interactive fairy tales for this little machine with 2K of RAM? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This early tech was all new to Brenda, but she fell in love with it immediately. This same friend went on to create computer games through a company called Cybervision. Brenda’s experience in theater made her a perfect candidate for the type of games they were working on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was the period of time in the theater where actors were interacting with audiences in in productions like Hair and Dionysus in ’69. I had just directed uh uh pretty improvisational version of Robin Hood where the troupe went around and, you know, and kids would talk to them. And if an audience member suggested something, they would be required to change what they were doing to accommodate it. So it was kind of like a group improv. For me, that was a model that I could immediately and directly use in thinking about how to construct an interactive game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Working at Cybervision felt like a dream for Brenda. She got to combine her theatrical training with a newfound love of technology, all within a supportive workplace. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everybody was lovely. There wasn’t an a a drop of sexism anywhere. People were incredibly kind and smart and I treasured them all. So I was fortunate in that way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After working at Cybervision, she landed at Atari in the 1980s. Atari was a pioneering video game and computer company. They made some of the OG arcade hits like Pong and Space Invaders. This was the beginning of the tech boom and early tech innovation, and very much a boys club. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was extremely male dominated and there were subcultures of males inside of that culture that were even harder to deal with. You know, I had to, I remember my first day at Atari, I had to kick the boys out of the women’s room because that’s where they were smoking weed. And I said, you know what? There’s a woman in the house, I need to use the bathroom. Could you guys clear, you know? I learned to be pretty bitchy to great positive effect, I will add. Dropping the occasional F bomb at a at a staff meeting was always good for getting people’s attention in those days. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After Atari, Brenda went on to work at various tech companies, including Activision and even Apple. But at almost every stop, Brenda felt like games were targeted for boys, while girls were largely left out of the conversation. So she began to ask herself — how could she get more girls interested in computers? That’s a new tab. How Purple Moon changed the game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 1992, Brenda got a job at Interval Research, a research and technology incubator. Brenda was able to convince management to do a study on girls and games. At the time, research showed that parents were much more likely to buy computers for boys than for girls, even if girls expressed interest. And female gamers in the 90s were only about 10 to 25% of the gaming population, depending on the country. So there was a large gap in computer literacy for young girls. Brenda wanted to learn why. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Generally speaking, you didn’t see little girls putting their hands on the machine because they would say, “I’m afraid I’ll make a mistake. I don’t want to touch it. It’s for boys.” So there were gender biases built into the way girls thought about how they might relate to technology. And our thinking as we spoke about it was as we move into a more technological world, they’ve got to get comfortable with it so that they have access to the power and help and joy, you know, that they might get from it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then, as we went out and started interviewing little girls, what we discovered was we couldn’t ask what’s your favorite computer game because there weren’t any for them, and they weren’t really playing. So we changed the question to how do girls and boys play and how is it different? What we learned in the course of talking with these girls is that it’s a hell of a hard time of life to be a tween girl. There’s all kinds of social stuff coming from the way women and girls relate to each other in same sex groups. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so they had issues, not just about technology, but about life that we were seeing, you know, writ large and everything they said didn’t matter what city we were in, we were hearing the same thing. “I feel like everything happens and I can’t do anything about it. I don’t know who I am yet. I don’t know how to help people. Oh, I wish I hadn’t made that decision.” You know, there’s a lot of negative stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So after interviewing over a thousand young girls and about 500 young boys on their real life experiences navigating their pre-teen and teenage years, Brenda had an idea. What if she could develop a game that was entirely meant for young girls through their eyes? One that could have a positive impact on their lives. And so the idea for Purple Moon was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It wasn’t easy to get into the computer gaming market with games geared for girls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In those days, these boys games were sold to boys in stores that were frequented by boys and you know, you just weren’t gonna put it in front of a kid unless you could get it into a toy store or some other kind of retail establishment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many hands helped launch Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For sure it takes a village, when I say my games or I designed this, I mean me and, you know, sixty other people who were sitting in the studio or we had wonderful writers and artists and thinkers and researchers and programmers. Uh so yeah, we worked together like a well-oiled machine, except when we didn’t. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon eventually became an independent company. The first Purple Moon game was released in 1997 and called Rockett’s New School. Visually, it had the same animated comic strip vibe as the other Purple Moon games that would come later. The game allows you to play as the character, Rockett Movado, on her first day of eighth grade at her new school. A PA announcement greets you as the game begins. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome, students. It’s another fantastic year at Whistling Pines Junior High! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi. Listen, I’m sorry to just kind of intrude, but I’m pretty sure you’re new, right? Yeah, I am. My name’s Rockett. Wow, really? Well anyway, I’m Jessie. So you wanna walk in with me, Rockett? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The idea was with Rockett that you could make a choice. Something unfolds and you have a moment. How do I feel about this? We called it emotional navigation. And so you would click on thought bubbles. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Venturing into the cafeteria scene alone could be fun. This is terrible. Not even a single friend to sit with. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you know, I feel terrible, I want to cry. Why don’t I make up with her? Hey, maybe Charla can help. You pick one of those, the thing plays out. If you don’t like what happens, you can go back and change it and see what happens instead. So this kind of social and emotional flexibility is incredibly important to girls that age. And having a sense of personal agency and a sense that you can make choices that matter and change your mind. These are really important milestones in that hard journey from being a little girl to a teenager. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So my mission sort of changed from a tech equity one to a how can I build something here, design something here that will help little girls have a better time in their lives and achieve greater self-esteem and feel the sense of personal agency coming to life. So that’s really why I did it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I love that. I mean, that’s why I really think I love the game so much is because you also were able to choose your own adventure and kind of have autonomy with your choice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I think even even though I was so young, I still felt like I felt power you know, I felt empowered by that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It worked. It worked! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time, I don’t think I realized how the ability to choose my own adventures in the Purple Moon games helped shape some of my decision making as a young girl. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the idea was not so much choose your own adventure, but choose your own response. Choose your path of navigation through this relatively complex social situation. I’m so proud that just about every scenario you see in any of those games comes from the girls we talk to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another way Purple Moon was way ahead of its time was with its website. Through it, they found entirely new ways to engage girl gamers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tools for making a website were not easily available. So putting that together, Christy Rosenthal led that team inside of Purple Moon and um was an astoundingly successful website. We were beating Disney.com for hits and dwell time for at least the first six months of our lives as a company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. Yeah, I don’t think I ever went on the website. I just always had the CD-ROM games.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a whole different world over there. You could write articles for the Whistling Pines newspaper and then we would, you know, incorporate ideas into the storyline. So we were having a kind of narrative conversation with girls on the web, getting ideas for what we might do in the games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Purple Moon website was pretty popular, and one reporter for Wired described it as an online space where she could make friends and be herself. It was like an early social networking site just for girls, where they could send each other online postcards and learn about new characters. Like I mentioned earlier, the Purple Moon games weren’t exactly visually advanced. I asked Brenda what it was like to design these games with the limited technology of the 90s. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were pretty much animated comic strips. And the reason for that was that we didn’t have the processing power to do good enough lip sync animation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And uh and the computers that were around that day. And we could never get it right. It would always lag just enough to make you crazy. I mean we really tried it, but we couldn’t get there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While a considerable amount of research went into making the Purple Moon games, not everyone liked the direction the games took. There were definitely some critics at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We got blowback on these games both from men who thought they were stupid and from hardcore feminists who thought girls ought to behave differently. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll get into that. After this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re back. Time for a new tab. Purple moon gets pushback. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So after the first Purple Moon game, Rockett’s New School was released, a reporter for the New York Times gave a scathing review. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The guy who reviewed the games in the New York Times thought they were just silly. Like, why would you care about who you’re going to be friends with in high school? You know, boys have a very different way of establishing social status in peer groups, generally speaking, we’re all, you know, we’re talking about averages, not everybody, but there’s a very different method. And so when a man looked at it, it’s like, what? Where’s the competition? You know, nobody’s shooting anybody. There are no monsters, no racing cars. What are you thinking? You know, it was that kind of stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it just delighted me. I thought, I have alienated the right person. One of our strategies here with the whole branding of the games as it evolved was to make sure that they gave boys cooties. We didn’t want boys to play them. The reason was that if your big brother played it and had the same response as the New York Times critic did and said, “this game is really lame”. You’d probably go, “Oh, I better not play it in front of John. ” You know, “oh, it’s not cool. I guess I shouldn’t do it.” That happens, you know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what we wanted was for to present something that girls said, “I own this. You know, I own this. And and you don’t get to tell me whether it’s any good or not.” So, we we made purple packaging, you know, we did all kinds of stuff to to alienate male players from picking it up and buying it because of that business of judgment coming from boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Male critics of the games didn’t surprise Brenda. What did surprise her was criticism from some women and feminists who didn’t like the games either. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were silly ones and there were reasonably good ones. You know, there’s an issue about girls behaving in a way that’s considered to be badly. Um, Gossip, exclusion, breaking of affiliations. These are the ways that girls covertly establish their social position, generally speaking. Those are tools that girls and women use. So that was part of it. They didn’t see queer people. Well, in 1995, ’96, we weren’t talking about queer people eleven years old. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmm hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, that that was a step too far. We didn’t have religion in the game either for the same reason. And it was just like stuff you didn’t talk about yet. Today, if I were doing it today, I would certainly deal with gender fluidity, with trans kids. I all of that stuff would come into play. But in in that period of time, that wasn’t possible. And yet, generally speaking, there was nothing but praise from women and educators and coaches and stuff like that. And and the sales were great. We were beating John Madden football for the first quarter that we were out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Critics also had issues with the research conducted to create Purple Moon. Some thought that the girls they interviewed may have already internalized gender stereotypes about what girls should like based on their age. They felt that Brenda and her team were just perpetuating the same gender tropes from their data. There was also criticism surrounding racial stereotypes in the games. One article I found stated that the game used cliches, quote, “such as the snobby popular blonde girl and the smart Asian with glasses.” Brenda felt differently about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I look at the games, I don’t see no racial stereotyping. And it certainly didn’t cause us to make any changes because, you know, we looked at it, we took it seriously, we evaluated it. And we came to the decision that it was incorrect. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While watching the replay of my favorite game, the Starfire Soccer Challenge on YouTube, I did notice how Miko, one of the characters in the game who is Asian, is depicted as a Samurai with a sword as she runs down the soccer field. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re scared now. They’re intimidated. They’re ugh.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll be honest, I cringed a bit at first at this image. But I later learned that the “Samurai Miko” character was actually designed by an Asian-American artist named Grace Chen, which definitely adds important context. While I don’t think the games are perfect, I do admire that Brenda and her team did extensive research with real young girls at the time to hear about what they were actually going through. And some articles stated that the Starfire Soccer Challenge game was beneficial. One even called it, quote, “an outstanding example of digital technology supporting positive emotional development.” I wonder what the games could look like now if they were created today. What would young girls, boys, or non-binary players desire to see in the games? And how could developers correct some of the cliches seen in the games in the 90s? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They wouldn’t be the same. We might get to some of the same emotional and ethical places that we did in the original games. It would take a boatload of new research because just as those girls I interviewed weren’t me at 10, um, the girls today aren’t you. And we need to go out and talk to them, learn what their lives are like, you know, figure it out. And I’d be tempted the second time around to build a game for little boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda never got the opportunity to make a game for boys. In 1999, after only three years, the company folded. But why did this happen? That’s a new tab. What happened to Purple Moon? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 1999, Purple Moon’s biggest funder, Paul Allen, decided to shift his focus to the e-commerce sector, which was beginning to take off at the time. Ultimately, he decided to take his money out of Purple Moon. This had very serious consequences for the company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We got the news from the board that they were gonna shut us down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmm. Wow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We we had eighty people expecting their paycheck that day. They had frozen our bank accounts. My CEO Nancy Deyo and I got in the car with the CFO. We remembered that we’d made a deposit on our office space with a different bank. So we got in the car, raced over there, took that money out in cash and gave everybody their pay. And they ended up selling the the company to Mattel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After the board decided to shut Purple Moon down, Brenda and others were terminated from the company. Then, once Mattel bought the gaming studio, the Purple Moon games eventually stopped being created for good. Brenda was devastated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Took me about a year to recover personally from that. After we shut down the website, we put a goodbye message on the on the front so if you logged into it, it would say, “Hi, we’ve had to leave. We’re so sorry we’ll miss you. ” Well, it turns out that if you were already on the site, if you didn’t leave, if you just sort of kept that window open, your friends could come into the site and join. We had like 300 kids joining Purple Moon after it was shut down because they were sneaking into the side door of the website. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even though Purple Moon’s closure was bittersweet, Brenda felt that the company had accomplished what it set out to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I absolutely feel like we hit the goal of making games that would enrich and enhance the lives of little girls. I feel like it was, you know, act of love from all of us, um who worked on it creatively. And I feel like we succeeded. I know that because I hear from people like you who tell me this changed my life. That’s what we wanted to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And, you know, girls would have ended up getting literate with computers anyway, as soon as the internet became something you could actually get to uh easily. A lot of the “I’m afraid to put my hands on the keyboard” stuff went away. I mean, we probably helped with that transition. And it wasn’t very long until females were at least half, if not more than half, of of the audience on the web for everything. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda began envisioning Purple Moon at a time when computer games weren’t designed with girls in mind. Since the 90s, the percentage of female gamers has grown to 47% in the US. Brenda wouldn’t claim credit for that entire change, but it’s hard to deny Purple Moon’s influence on girl gamers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe my love for gaming started because the Purple Moon games felt accessible. And maybe it ended because CD-ROMs eventually became obsolete, and I never quite felt like the video game universe was meant for me. Whatever the case, the world of Purple Moon was a place I felt like I belonged, where I had agency. And for young Maya, that was everything. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much, Brenda. This was so great to get to talk to you. I feel like little Maya is so happy right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Give little Maya a hug from me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was reported and produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED Podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also! We want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or TikTok at “close all tabs.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "meet-ukraines-geeks-of-war",
"title": "Meet Ukraine’s ‘Geeks of War’",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Ukraine-Russia war has been called the most technologically advanced war in history. Ukrainian citizens receive notifications about incoming missile and drone attacks through apps on their phones; remote-controlled drones swarm the front lines; and volunteer cyberwarfare units target Russian digital infrastructure. It’s all part of what some have dubbed Ukraine’s “Geeks of War.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode, investigative reporter Erica Hellerstein takes us to the digital front line. On a recent trip to Ukraine, she met a husband-and-wife duo running a DIY nonprofit that supplies tech to defense forces, toured the recently-bombed headquarters of one of the country’s biggest tech companies, and explored how a swarm of online accounts with Shiba Inu avatars is countering Russian propaganda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Throughout, she looks at how Ukraine’s culture of tech innovation — and its surprising ties to Silicon Valley — are fueling the country’s resistance through an army of engineers, coders, hackers, and tinkerers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5459549472\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ericahellerstein.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Erica Hellerstein\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, investigative journalist and feature writer\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/tnyradiohour/articles/dexter-filkins-on-drones-and-the-future-of-warfare?tab=transcript\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dexter Filkins on Drones and the Future of Warfare\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Howard, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WNYC\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kyivpost.com/post/47836\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lessons From the World’s First Full-Scale Cyberwar\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — David Kirichenko, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kyiv Post\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/30/technology/russia-propaganda-video-games.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Russia Takes Its Ukraine Information War Into Video Games\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Steven Lee Myers and Kellen Browning, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2025/08/27/ukraine-drones-war-russia-00514712?utm_source=perplexity\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why Ukraine remains the world’s most innovative war machine\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ibrahim Naber, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Politico\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/03/03/world/europe/ukraine-russia-war-drones-deaths.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Thousand Snipers in the Sky: The New War in Ukraine\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Marc Santora, Lara Jakes, Andrew E. Kramer, Marco Hernandez and Liubov Sholudko, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here on Close All Tabs, we cover all different sides of tech and the internet — the good, the bad, and the gray areas in between. Today, we’re doing something different, and taking our deep dive abroad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The tech industry is increasingly intertwined with global conflict. Like how Silicon Valley’s AI obsession has fueled the automated warfare in Israel’s attacks on Gaza, or US bomb strikes in Iraq and Syria. So-called “defense tech” startups are attracting billions in funding. And like we’ve talked about on this show before, the Pentagon’s Cold War investments actually built Silicon Valley. This startup approach to weaponry has some pretty concerning implications for the future of war. And we’ve seen, in real time, the way these advancements in surveillance and automated warfare are being used to oppress people — like Palestinians in Gaza. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the same time in another region plagued by conflict, Ukraine, tech culture has become a vital part of the country’s resistance against Russian aggression. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s the kind of story that Erica Hellerstein stumbled upon, as she prepared for her own trip to Ukraine. Erica is a Bay Area investigative journalist who reports on human rights, politics, and tech. Back in June, she spent three weeks around Kyiv on a reporting trip, working on a project about her own family’s roots in the country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just before her trip, she heard a story about a Ukrainian engineer who had worked for a Bay Area tech company, but left his job to join his country’s defense forces. It got her thinking about the connection between Silicon Valley and the Ukrainian fight against Russian occupation. She started digging and according to the people she talked to, the tech sector is part of the reason Ukraine is still standing today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These are the Geeks of War — that’s what one Ukrainian drone operator nicknamed the group. Ukraine actually has a long history of technological innovation that is still alive today, and is fueling the country’s resistance through an army of engineers, coders, hackers, and tinkerers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this special episode, Erica will introduce us to a few of these “Geeks” and we’ll explore how this new generation is blurring the lines between the digital and physical battlefield — reshaping the next generation of conflict, and maybe even the future of war itself. I’ll let Erica take it from here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein, Reporter\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s around 11:55 pm when the first alarm goes off.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Alarm sounding from Air Alert app]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The noise shatters any illusion I had that my first night in Kyiv would be quiet or peaceful. I’ve been doomscrolling on my phone in a bomb shelter connected to my hotel in Kyiv. It’s surprisingly nice, with wifi, beverages, even bean bag chairs. On heavy nights of bombardment, like tonight, these sirens can go off multiple times and last for hours. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But most of the time I’m in Ukraine, I’m hearing these alarms digitally through an app on my phone called Air Alert. The Ukrainian government developed the app towards the beginning of the war, and it’s now been downloaded at least 27 million times. That’s in a country of 39 million people. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Air Alert sounds a loud, jarring alarm whenever a Russian missile strike, or drone attack is detected in your region. And the voice telling you to find the nearest shelter? None other than Jedi master Luke Skywalker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Mark Hammill from Air Alert app]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Attention. Air raid alert. Proceed to the nearest shelter. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Or rather, Mark Hamill, the actor who \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">played\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the beloved character in Star Wars. Hamill’s a vocal supporter of Ukraine so he pitched in to voice the English language version of the app.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Mark Hammill from Air Alert app] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t be careless. Your overconfidence is your weakness.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: I’ve learned, though, that the app only gives you basic information. To get details, I go to a different app, Telegram, where I follow a volunteer-run channel that gives updates about what kinds of missiles, or drones, are in the air.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As if two apps aren’t enough, I’m also on WhatsApp messaging a group of journalists who are also in Kyiv. Some are in the same hotel shelter, others are sheltering in the hallways of their apartment buildings or metro stations. Everyone is sharing updates. “Drone flew right over our roof,” someone writes around 1 am. Another, two minutes later: “Loud explosion not far from my place.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Finally, around 6am, another alert goes off. Once again, I hear a familiar voice.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Mark Hammill from Air Alert app]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Attention. The air alert is over. May the Force be with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That means, at least for now, the skies in Kyiv are safe. But as dawn breaks, the scale of the destruction starts to come into focus. About two miles from where I’m staying, an apartment building was hit by a ballistic missile and reduced to rubble – there are reports of people still trapped inside. A Kyiv metro station and university were also hit. All told, ten people, including a child, were killed in the onslaught.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This has become a regular occurrence in Ukraine. People have been living through these kinds of attacks for years. Unable to sleep through the wails of the sirens, reading news about buildings blown up, civilians killed and then somehow, still managing to go about their daily lives – going to work, picking up their kids, celebrating birthday parties, getting married.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And beyond the apps like Air Alert, technology has become a centerpiece in this war — hacking software, killer drones, medical robots delivering supplies to the frontlines. It’s transforming how people experience war. Now, every aspect of our lives, including conflict, is mediated by our digital world. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the people behind the screens can be a little mysterious. I wanted to learn more about them. To understand the workers and whizzes changing what warfare looks like, with major implications for the rest of the world. I wanted to meet the self-styled “Geeks of War.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And for that, we’ll need to open a new tab: \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Meet the Geeks\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: My first guide to the geeks is a couple I met in Lviv, which is a Western city in Ukraine. Dimko and Iryna Zhluktenko. They’re the co-founders of Dzyga’s Paw. It’s a Ukrainian nonprofit that donates defense technology to the frontlines. Both Iryna and Dimko used to work in tech. Dimko was a software engineer, Iryna a product analyst for the San Francisco-based tech company, JustAnswer. But after Russia invaded Ukraine, they quit their jobs and threw themselves into Dzyga’s Paw, which, by the way, is named after their adorable little fox-faced pup, Dzyga.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I stop by the organization’s headquarters one night. They greet me with a tour of the space. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can just come like this. So we used to live here, so this is actually, like a normal house location, but very old one is from 1906, so it’s more than 100 years old, and here you have our main working, like a little open space.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: There’s a small party happening, with some women playing an intimidating-looking card game in the kitchen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The girls are playing [inaudible] Do you know this game? No, you should try. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein in tape: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, I’m horrible at cards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We pass an entire wall full of framed thank you letters from different military units. There’s another wall, too, full of patches from soldiers and volunteer fighters, some coming from the other side of the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein in tape: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow, I see Argentina. That’s far.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s from, yeah, from international volunteer who’s fighting here in Ukraine, from Argentina. This is a Estonian one from Estonian cyber defense forces. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Iryna shows me another decoration tacked to the wall: A downed Russian drone. And it’s in really good shape. So she decides to give it a whirl.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let me try to do it. So it turns on. And if I had a controller, if I had a like TX controller, I could launch it and start it, probably.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein in tape:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So this is like a war treasure?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Looted from Russians. Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Once I tear myself away from the shiny objects, I sit down with Dimko, Iryna, and of course, Dzyga, who has extreme zoomies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She is the boss of the operation.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Dzyga barks]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They tell me that the project came about in the early months of the war. Of course, like so many other Ukrainians, they wanted to help. And they started to think about what they could bring to the table. And that’s when Dimko and Iryna, had their \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">a-ha\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> moment. “We’re nerds!” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’ve decided that well, we might just use our, uh, tech experience, our tech geekiness, uh, to, uh, innovate. Some of the approaches on the battlefield.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We figured out, okay, we can help better when our expertise is. So basically we started looking more into more advanced equipment. We started looking into drone and things like that and because we had friends in the military, uh, it was like our first point of contact because like we had people we could trust. And we started, you know, buying and supplying some tech devices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They started with what their friends in the military really needed: equipment. Drones, Starlink units — which provide remote internet access – long-range encrypted radios, thermal cameras. Dzyga’s paw has since grown from a scrappy idea into a multi-million dollar nonprofit. In October alone, they delivered over $230,000 worth of equipment to the military, according to the organization. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And all of this high tech gear goes to soldiers and drone operators who are stationed near the frontlines.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They often work in hideouts, or command centers, miles from the front, flying drones by remote control while wearing a headset that shows exactly what the device sees through its camera. Other soldiers sit beside them, watching live maps on screens, calling out targets and coordinates in real time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dimko explains what these command centers look like in action.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Basically an underground shelter with, uh, tons of, uh, big ass four screen TVs or something. Uh, and guys looking like they just finished the MIT or something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So literally geeks of the war, sitting in those command centers and analyzing what is happening at the battlefield, and then suggesting what decisions should be taken to be the most effective.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> About a year ago, Dimko also enlisted as a drone operator for a Ukrainian military unit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because this is my chance to, uh, well defend my home, defend my family, and, uh, in the end defend my country.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically the job is to do the reconnaissance. Um, you have this big UAV that, uh, like a fixed wing kind of a thing that you launch in the air.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Drone warfare has quickly become one of the defining characteristics of this conflict. The kind Dimko pilots are called UAVs — or unmanned aerial vehicles. They look like small airplanes, and like Dimko said, they’re mainly used for reconnaissance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It has the radio connection, so you have the radio signal link, uh, to it. And, uh, you have the live stream from that, you stream that footage into one of the IT systems that we have, uh, in the armed forces.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein in tape:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So all of the people interested in the situation in the area. Can watch that live stream. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then there’s this other kind of drone, called an FPV. That stands for first-person-view. They’re some of the most common drones on the battlefield right now. Once upon a time, these drones were mainly the toys of hobbyists and creatives. You know that insufferable wedding reel you saw on Instagram? Probably shot on an FPV drone.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When Russia invaded, the Ukrainian military started rolling them out on a massive scale. They cost next to nothing. They’re endlessly scalable, and for a country like Ukraine, with far fewer resources and manpower than Russia, they’ve been a game-changer. Drones that can be bought for just a few hundred dollars are now taking out Russian tanks and artillery worth millions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are swarms of these things buzzing around now on the front, some with cameras for spying, others loaded with explosives to detonate on their targets. And they’re responsible for massive damage. Drones now account for as much as seventy percent of casualties on both sides, according to Ukrainian officials.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Experts are already warning that this rapid, wide-scale shift could dramatically change the future of conflict. Other countries are likely to learn from or maybe adopt the technologies and tactics deployed in this war. And It’s not just militaries that can repurpose these technologies. Paramilitaries, militias, and extremist groups can all easily purchase and deploy drone technology. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As drone warfare becomes more lethal on the battlefield, Dimko tells me that his work is also getting more treacherous as the war progresses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is very and very dangerous because the kill zone is getting wider and wider because of the danger of FPV drones there in our direction.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have a lot of, uh, Russian groups there, specifically hunting pilots like us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But even though Dimko is now an official member of the Ukrainian military, the organization he helps run, Dzyga’s Paw, started completely outside of that system as a grassroots, volunteer mission. And now it’s directly helping units like his and this is really common. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ukraine is heavily dependent on volunteers. People like the Dzyga’s Paw team, delivering supplies to the frontlines, volunteer air defense groups that shoot down Russian drones in the middle of the night, or Ukrainian tech companies building safety apps for civilians. All of this experimentation, this volunteer work – it’s been a really important part of Ukraine’s survival. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a classic battlefield, it’d fail. But, um, it’s a constant competition of technology again and I still feel we are more rapid. We are more fast in terms of inventing something new. I wanna believe at least that, um, it all comes from our initial desire to survive and to fight for our country ’cause uh, there were many different people with different careers and professions, but, uh, huge part of them switched to thinking in this direction. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And this bottom-up, grassroots approach represents a fundamental difference between how Ukraine and Russia operate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Compared to Russia, it’s like they don’t have a, they like, everything is very like, top down. It’s controlled from the,yeah, from the state. So, indeed they have great engineers, but they are given like a task to develop something, to come up with a solution. While in Ukraine, it’s more of a like, grassroots thing and sometimes something brilliant just comes out of nowhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So how did Ukraine get here to this nimble and adaptive space for innovation and experimentation? And why does it all remind me so much of the tech culture in the Bay Area? We’ll get into that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, we’re back. Time to open a new tab: [\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ukraine’s culture of tech innovation.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To help us understand Ukraine’s tech culture, we’re taking a visit to MacPaw — one of the most successful tech companies to come out of Ukraine before the war. They created the CleanMyMac software. I’m at the company’s headquarters in Kyiv.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This building was actually hit by a Russian missile back in December. There are still some traces of the attack around the building: Window glass damaged, parts of the exterior crumbling. Here’s MacPaw CEO Oleksandr Kosovan describing that day:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oleksandr Kosovan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The rockets were very powerful so they destroyed all the facade of the building. All the windows were shattered. A lot of damage inside the office, but nothing super critical. We were very lucky in that none of our employees were injured. It was scary.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> MacPaw has built several digital tools to support Ukraine during the war, including an app to help Ukrainian companies check on employees after attacks, software that helps computers identify Russian malware, and a special VPN to help people in occupied territories circumvent Russian censorship.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While getting a tour of the MacPaw office, something catches my eye. It’s a wall filled with a collection of old Apple products from across the ages. It’s got ancient looking grey computers, and those bulky, colorful desktops that always felt to me like the computer version of a jolly rancher. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein in tape:\u003c/b> \u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I remember having these in school. It brings me back. Very nostalgic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oleksandr created this wall as an homage to Apple, which has always been an inspiration to him. Before the war, he wanted to create a museum full of the company’s products. For now, this wall is a little shrine in the middle of the MacPaw office.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As a Bay Area resident, it’s kind of funny, being here and seeing traces of where I’m from all over the tech industry here. Granted, Silicon Valley is hugely influential but what surprises me is just how intertwined Silicon Valley and Ukraine’s tech industries are. Like how Iryna of Dzyga’s Paw worked for a San Francisco startup.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this is not unusual I’m learning. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For years, tech companies from San Francisco to San Jose have relied on Ukrainian engineers for their technical skills, English fluency, and lower labor costs. Companies like Google, Grammarly (which was founded by Ukrainians), Ring, JetBridge, and Caspio all had employees based in Ukraine when Russia began its full-scale invasion.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a general cultural ethos here that feels familiar to my Bay Area sensibilities, like the food trucks, ping pong tables, and hoodies I see all over tech campuses in Kyiv. There was one friendship bracelet-wearing tech worker I talk to who tells me all about her recent ayahuasca healing journey in South America. I felt like I was back at home.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there are all the personal connections I notice with the Ukrainians I meet. Some worked for Bay Area companies. Or, have friends who live there for work. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And since the war began, these transnational ties have become a quiet but meaningful network of support for Ukraine. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Silicon Valley–based nonprofit Nova Ukraine, which was co-founded by a former Facebook and Google employee from Kharkiv, has raised over $160 million in humanitarian aid.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Iryna’s old employer, JustAnswer, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">has expanded its Ukrainian workforce. It funded a pediatric mental health center in the country as well. Caspio \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">helped relocate dozens of Ukrainian staffers safely out of the country, and\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> continues supporting staff remotely. Sometimes, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">company Zoom calls will be interrupted by the wail of a siren telling Ukrainian workers to go to a bomb shelter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While there’s a lot of overlap between these two parts of the world, the innovation mindset that runs through Ukraine’s tech sector has deep roots. It started long before Steve Jobs or Silicon Valley exploded onto the global scene, like, decades before.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 1951, when Ukraine was still part of the USSR, engineers on the outskirts of Kyiv developed the first computer in all of Europe. They worked around the clock, under tough conditions, in a crumbling old building that was ravaged by bombing during WWII. The people who made this computer, they’re considered the godfathers of Ukrainian IT. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s Oleksandr again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oleksandr Kosovan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the, uh [inaudible] or IT on that era was actually originated from Ukraine. And um, beside that, there were like so many engineers, like my father was an engineer. There are so, so many great engineers that were working for this industry back then. And, and this basically were like the birth of the modern IT industry in Ukraine. So when the USSR collapsed, this talent and this, uh, uh, knowledge, uh, stayed in, in Ukraine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And today, the industry those engineers helped to create now plays a significant role in Ukraine’s economy. In 2024, Ukraine’s IT sector contributed 3.4% to Ukraine’s GDP, behind only the agricultural industry, according to a report published by the IT Association of Ukraine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oleksandr Kosovan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Literally hundreds of thousands of people joined, uh, Ukrainian army. They started to bring their experience and their, like, creative, uh, vision and approach, uh, to the Army. And they started to apply, uh, some changes from, from bottom up. Uh, because, uh, these generals here, they probably know how to, uh, find the war of previous era, uh, but they don’t, uh, definitely understand how they can apply these technologies in order to, to receive some, some advantage. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> To this point, we’ve been mostly talking about the physical battlefield, like drones attacking targets in the real world. But a new frontline has emerged in this war — the internet. And the tools and tactics needed to fight in these spaces look completely different. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The new digital battlefield.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our guide to this world is David Kirichenko, a fellow journalist who splits his time between the U.S. and Ukraine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m a war journalist and since 2022, I’ve been working on the front lines, um, in Ukraine.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But he’s also been reporting on another front: the digital fight between the two countries. Because the information space between Russia and Ukraine has become its own proxy war, with each vying for support at home and abroad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It certainly has, I think, a very big impact on what goes on the physical battlefield just from the amount of influence and impact that you can have. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Russia’s a country long known for its sophisticated cyber warfare campaigns. In the current conflict, it’s been deploying vast amounts of disinformation online to weaken support for Ukraine around the world — on social media, fake news sites, even video games. This practice, as David points out, has deep roots, going back to the Cold War.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Even since the 1980s, the Russians first started out by building like a newspaper in India. It prints a fake story and then you have a, a more slightly more credible one, print that, and then everyone just starts citing it and it circulates around the world. And an MIT study showed that, um, like the fake news it it spreads like six, seven times faster than the truth.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Enter: The Fellas. They’re a niche online community that has come together to fight Russian disinformation. They call themselves the North Atlantic Fellas Organization, or NAFO, for short. And because it’s the internet, their entire social media “army” has adopted the likeness of one very good boy: A Shiba Inu.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The members of this online battalion, who like to be called the Fellas, usually identify themselves on Twitter, or X, with a cartoon Shiba avatar. And they have one major purpose: To take up digital arms against Russian propaganda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When a pro-Russian narrative pops up on social media, The Fellas leap into action. Their objective is to distract, mock and debunk the Kremlin’s talking points. Politico called the group “a sh*t posting, Twitter-trolling, dog-deploying social media army taking on Putin one meme at a time.” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are now thousands of Fellas out there in the digital dog fight. They’re an organic phenomenon, borne out of internet culture. And they make anyone who earnestly tries to engage with their trolling look ridiculous. “Oh, you’re fighting with a cartoon Shiba at 3 pm on a Tuesday? Don’t you have anything better to do?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The best way to counter Russia propaganda is by mocking it, ridiculing it, and showing that like, this is how ridiculous it is. And like you just make a joke at it yourself by sharing it. Just the fact that, you know, over the years you had all these high-ranking Russian and then other officials engaging with cartoon dogs on, on Twitter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A less cheeky example of digital warfare is the IT Army of Ukraine. They’re a collective of volunteer hackers around the world who coordinate cyber attacks against Russia. They’ve attacked thousands of targets since the war began, from Russian banks to media outlets, and power grids. In June 2024, the group claimed responsibility for a large-scale cyberattack against Russia’s banking system, reportedly causing outages on banking websites, apps, and payment systems. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The IT Army of Ukraine isn’t a traditional military unit. It’s a sprawling, loosely organized network that runs primarily online. They post updates and send communications on their Telegram channel, where they have nearly 115,000 subscribers. They also have a website that lays out more information about their work and how to get involved. One page, for example, is titled: “Instructions for setting up attacks on the enemy country.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David has also been reporting on this group. The IT Army’s spokesperson told him last year that its volunteer hackers had caused something like a billion dollars in damage from these attacks. David explains the anatomy of an attack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You typically have people that you have the toolkit installed so it doesn’t interfere with your, your Netflix or slow down your internet. You couldn’t set it to, I want to run from like 12:00 AM to 6:00 PM, I’m gonna leave my computer on. So if the IT army, like, runs the botnet and wants to direct an attack, it has the access to the compute to be able to run it and send pings from a lot of different places to overwhelm, um, a system. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so they like posted the, the toolkit onto their website so anyone’s able to go and, and download it. And it’s pretty, pretty simple to install it. And, uh, all you gotta do is just make sure that your computer is running and contributing your compute power to the botnet so that it’s overwhelming, like services when the attack begins.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve met people that said like, even my 12-year-old child is like doing these, uh, cyber attacks against Russia. They just download the toolkit and, you know, you set, you can even set a timer, allow your computer to participate in this botnet\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But these IT soldiers operate in a legally murky zone. There’s obviously something troubling about kids participating in cyberwar against another country. And, if someone participates in an attack from their couch on the other side of the world, are they breaking any laws?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is a gray space. How do governments prepare to legislate for this. Like, are you a combatant If you’re engaging in like cyber warfare? Are you breaking any laws? Should governments build a cyber reserve or some sort of like legal framework for their, like, people to be able to participate in this stuff? I mean, it, you know what, if you’re in Poland and then you’re conducting some cyber attacks and the Russians are very upset and they can launch a missile and they claim that you’re an enemy combatant. And yeah, just it’s, it’s a very challenging space and for I think lawmakers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For all the reasons he just laid out, most of the people I spoke with wouldn’t talk openly about participating in the IT Army. Though one person told me that “literally everyone with a laptop did.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Regardless, all these IT Army volunteers are having a real impact, David says. And this theme of a decentralized, grassroots approach as part of Ukraine’s strategy — chaotic with flashes of ingenuity — it keeps coming up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It ties back to Ukraine’s, wider story of, it’s a volunteer driven war effort. Like Ukrainian soldiers across the frontline are just dependent on online communities and, and volunteers. And so just people around the world have had such a big impact, both in information space, getting supplies to soldiers. Um, and one of the other ways has been on the cyber realm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This grassroots system is pretty much the opposite of how \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Russia\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> does things. Which is centralized, top down, structured. Just a few solutions, scaled across every single military unit. They’re two competing philosophies fueling this technological arms race between Russia and Ukraine. A war of who’s quicker to out-innovate the other side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ukraine is so decentralized, it’s kind of its biggest strength and biggest weaknesses. You have a zoo of solutions of every volunteer group. They’re making, they’re iterating, but then there’s so many different technologies and, and weapons, that everyone’s using different things and it’s hard to standardize, but then it also makes it very effective. But then the Russians learn what’s working and over time they can steer \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, the whole war machine to focus on a, on a few things, and it’s sharing those lessons. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And no matter how things end, what they’re coming up with is changing what war looks like altogether. With major implications.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Drones dominate not just the, the frontline itself, but it’s changed like naval warfare. Ukrainians’ naval drones have helped to neutralize a third of Russia’s Black Sea fleet, and they’re basically blockading Russia’s fleet that had to retreat from occupied Crimea. Ukraine has built, right, these ground robots that are becoming like mechanical medics, and the naval drones help shoot down multiple Russian helicopters, a couple of fighter jets. And those two fighter jets that were lost in Mayra, um, each like 50 million. So you can have a sea drone worth like 200, $300,000 with the, uh, missile worth that much or less, shooting down something that’s $50 million.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so we’re going to continue to see the proliferation of like, cheaper, faster tech. And we gotta learn what, you know, how do we prepare for that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Technology is fundamentally a gray area. It’s built on these bursts of genius and promise, and also shows up in our modern world in dark and scary ways. It’s that first European computer, created out of the ashes of a bombed-out building in the Soviet Union. It’s Silicon Valley revolutionizing the world we now inhabit. For better, in some ways and in many ways, for worse: consolidating power, money, data, and influence, on an unimaginable scale.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s the real story of the geeks of war. There are the lifesaving apps, like Air Alert, Telegram channels with real-time information about missiles and drones, VPNs connecting people in occupied territories to a bigger, broader, information ecosystem- Tools that are keeping people safe, connected and alive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there are also new technologies that are killing people, and the potentially catastrophic consequences of cyber saber-rattling. Destroyer drones, yes, they can give an underdog country like Ukraine an edge, but when you stop and think about their capabilities, the damage that can be unleashed with a tool literally anyone can buy for just a few hundred dollars, it’s terrifying. And then of course, there’s cyberwarfare, which can take down a whole country’s infrastructure, cripple power grids, communication networks, financial systems and thrust us all into completely uncharted geopolitical territory. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It reminds me of the early days of social media. When Google was still telling us not to be evil. When social networks were described as a revolutionary, democratizing force, helping to topple authoritarian regimes, organize mass protest, connect people all over the world. But we all know what actually happened was a lot more complicated than Big Tech’s aspirational mottos. The lens flipped. The narrative cracked. And now we’re living on the other side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what will be the story we tell about all these tools 10, 20 years from now? The technology we’re seeing in this war is opening up a new frontier. But who knows where it will be deployed next: What it will look like, who it will target. The geeks are showing us the future we just don’t know where it will lead.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks to Erica Hellerstein for her reporting and collaboration on this episode. Erica’s reporting was supported by a fellowship through the International Women’s Media Foundation’s Women on the Ground: Reporting from Ukraine’s Unseen Frontlines Initiative in partnership with the Howard G. Buffett Foundation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With that, it’s time to close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios in San Francisco, and is hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chris Hambrick is our editor. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "The Ukraine-Russia war has been called the most technologically advanced war in history. Ukrainian citizens receive notifications about incoming missile and drone attacks through apps on their phones; remote-controlled drones swarm the front lines; and volunteer cyberwarfare units target Russian digital infrastructure. It’s all part of what some have dubbed Ukraine’s “Geeks of War.”In this episode, investigative reporter Erica Hellerstein takes us to the digital front line. On a recent trip to Ukraine, she met a husband-and-wife duo running a DIY nonprofit that supplies tech to defense forces, toured the recently-bombed headquarters of one of the country’s biggest tech companies, and explored how a swarm of online accounts with Shiba Inu avatars is countering Russian propaganda. Throughout, she looks at how Ukraine’s culture of tech innovation — and its surprising ties to Silicon Valley — are fueling the country’s resistance through an army of engineers, coders, hackers, and tinkerers.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Ukraine-Russia war has been called the most technologically advanced war in history. Ukrainian citizens receive notifications about incoming missile and drone attacks through apps on their phones; remote-controlled drones swarm the front lines; and volunteer cyberwarfare units target Russian digital infrastructure. It’s all part of what some have dubbed Ukraine’s “Geeks of War.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode, investigative reporter Erica Hellerstein takes us to the digital front line. On a recent trip to Ukraine, she met a husband-and-wife duo running a DIY nonprofit that supplies tech to defense forces, toured the recently-bombed headquarters of one of the country’s biggest tech companies, and explored how a swarm of online accounts with Shiba Inu avatars is countering Russian propaganda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Throughout, she looks at how Ukraine’s culture of tech innovation — and its surprising ties to Silicon Valley — are fueling the country’s resistance through an army of engineers, coders, hackers, and tinkerers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5459549472\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ericahellerstein.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Erica Hellerstein\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, investigative journalist and feature writer\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/tnyradiohour/articles/dexter-filkins-on-drones-and-the-future-of-warfare?tab=transcript\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dexter Filkins on Drones and the Future of Warfare\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Howard, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WNYC\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kyivpost.com/post/47836\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lessons From the World’s First Full-Scale Cyberwar\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — David Kirichenko, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kyiv Post\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/30/technology/russia-propaganda-video-games.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Russia Takes Its Ukraine Information War Into Video Games\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Steven Lee Myers and Kellen Browning, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2025/08/27/ukraine-drones-war-russia-00514712?utm_source=perplexity\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why Ukraine remains the world’s most innovative war machine\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ibrahim Naber, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Politico\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/03/03/world/europe/ukraine-russia-war-drones-deaths.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Thousand Snipers in the Sky: The New War in Ukraine\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Marc Santora, Lara Jakes, Andrew E. Kramer, Marco Hernandez and Liubov Sholudko, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here on Close All Tabs, we cover all different sides of tech and the internet — the good, the bad, and the gray areas in between. Today, we’re doing something different, and taking our deep dive abroad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The tech industry is increasingly intertwined with global conflict. Like how Silicon Valley’s AI obsession has fueled the automated warfare in Israel’s attacks on Gaza, or US bomb strikes in Iraq and Syria. So-called “defense tech” startups are attracting billions in funding. And like we’ve talked about on this show before, the Pentagon’s Cold War investments actually built Silicon Valley. This startup approach to weaponry has some pretty concerning implications for the future of war. And we’ve seen, in real time, the way these advancements in surveillance and automated warfare are being used to oppress people — like Palestinians in Gaza. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the same time in another region plagued by conflict, Ukraine, tech culture has become a vital part of the country’s resistance against Russian aggression. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s the kind of story that Erica Hellerstein stumbled upon, as she prepared for her own trip to Ukraine. Erica is a Bay Area investigative journalist who reports on human rights, politics, and tech. Back in June, she spent three weeks around Kyiv on a reporting trip, working on a project about her own family’s roots in the country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just before her trip, she heard a story about a Ukrainian engineer who had worked for a Bay Area tech company, but left his job to join his country’s defense forces. It got her thinking about the connection between Silicon Valley and the Ukrainian fight against Russian occupation. She started digging and according to the people she talked to, the tech sector is part of the reason Ukraine is still standing today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These are the Geeks of War — that’s what one Ukrainian drone operator nicknamed the group. Ukraine actually has a long history of technological innovation that is still alive today, and is fueling the country’s resistance through an army of engineers, coders, hackers, and tinkerers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this special episode, Erica will introduce us to a few of these “Geeks” and we’ll explore how this new generation is blurring the lines between the digital and physical battlefield — reshaping the next generation of conflict, and maybe even the future of war itself. I’ll let Erica take it from here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein, Reporter\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s around 11:55 pm when the first alarm goes off.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Alarm sounding from Air Alert app]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The noise shatters any illusion I had that my first night in Kyiv would be quiet or peaceful. I’ve been doomscrolling on my phone in a bomb shelter connected to my hotel in Kyiv. It’s surprisingly nice, with wifi, beverages, even bean bag chairs. On heavy nights of bombardment, like tonight, these sirens can go off multiple times and last for hours. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But most of the time I’m in Ukraine, I’m hearing these alarms digitally through an app on my phone called Air Alert. The Ukrainian government developed the app towards the beginning of the war, and it’s now been downloaded at least 27 million times. That’s in a country of 39 million people. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Air Alert sounds a loud, jarring alarm whenever a Russian missile strike, or drone attack is detected in your region. And the voice telling you to find the nearest shelter? None other than Jedi master Luke Skywalker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Mark Hammill from Air Alert app]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Attention. Air raid alert. Proceed to the nearest shelter. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Or rather, Mark Hamill, the actor who \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">played\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the beloved character in Star Wars. Hamill’s a vocal supporter of Ukraine so he pitched in to voice the English language version of the app.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Mark Hammill from Air Alert app] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t be careless. Your overconfidence is your weakness.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: I’ve learned, though, that the app only gives you basic information. To get details, I go to a different app, Telegram, where I follow a volunteer-run channel that gives updates about what kinds of missiles, or drones, are in the air.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As if two apps aren’t enough, I’m also on WhatsApp messaging a group of journalists who are also in Kyiv. Some are in the same hotel shelter, others are sheltering in the hallways of their apartment buildings or metro stations. Everyone is sharing updates. “Drone flew right over our roof,” someone writes around 1 am. Another, two minutes later: “Loud explosion not far from my place.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Finally, around 6am, another alert goes off. Once again, I hear a familiar voice.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Mark Hammill from Air Alert app]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Attention. The air alert is over. May the Force be with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That means, at least for now, the skies in Kyiv are safe. But as dawn breaks, the scale of the destruction starts to come into focus. About two miles from where I’m staying, an apartment building was hit by a ballistic missile and reduced to rubble – there are reports of people still trapped inside. A Kyiv metro station and university were also hit. All told, ten people, including a child, were killed in the onslaught.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This has become a regular occurrence in Ukraine. People have been living through these kinds of attacks for years. Unable to sleep through the wails of the sirens, reading news about buildings blown up, civilians killed and then somehow, still managing to go about their daily lives – going to work, picking up their kids, celebrating birthday parties, getting married.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And beyond the apps like Air Alert, technology has become a centerpiece in this war — hacking software, killer drones, medical robots delivering supplies to the frontlines. It’s transforming how people experience war. Now, every aspect of our lives, including conflict, is mediated by our digital world. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the people behind the screens can be a little mysterious. I wanted to learn more about them. To understand the workers and whizzes changing what warfare looks like, with major implications for the rest of the world. I wanted to meet the self-styled “Geeks of War.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And for that, we’ll need to open a new tab: \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Meet the Geeks\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: My first guide to the geeks is a couple I met in Lviv, which is a Western city in Ukraine. Dimko and Iryna Zhluktenko. They’re the co-founders of Dzyga’s Paw. It’s a Ukrainian nonprofit that donates defense technology to the frontlines. Both Iryna and Dimko used to work in tech. Dimko was a software engineer, Iryna a product analyst for the San Francisco-based tech company, JustAnswer. But after Russia invaded Ukraine, they quit their jobs and threw themselves into Dzyga’s Paw, which, by the way, is named after their adorable little fox-faced pup, Dzyga.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I stop by the organization’s headquarters one night. They greet me with a tour of the space. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can just come like this. So we used to live here, so this is actually, like a normal house location, but very old one is from 1906, so it’s more than 100 years old, and here you have our main working, like a little open space.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: There’s a small party happening, with some women playing an intimidating-looking card game in the kitchen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The girls are playing [inaudible] Do you know this game? No, you should try. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein in tape: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, I’m horrible at cards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We pass an entire wall full of framed thank you letters from different military units. There’s another wall, too, full of patches from soldiers and volunteer fighters, some coming from the other side of the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein in tape: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow, I see Argentina. That’s far.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s from, yeah, from international volunteer who’s fighting here in Ukraine, from Argentina. This is a Estonian one from Estonian cyber defense forces. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Iryna shows me another decoration tacked to the wall: A downed Russian drone. And it’s in really good shape. So she decides to give it a whirl.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let me try to do it. So it turns on. And if I had a controller, if I had a like TX controller, I could launch it and start it, probably.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein in tape:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So this is like a war treasure?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Looted from Russians. Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Once I tear myself away from the shiny objects, I sit down with Dimko, Iryna, and of course, Dzyga, who has extreme zoomies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She is the boss of the operation.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Dzyga barks]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They tell me that the project came about in the early months of the war. Of course, like so many other Ukrainians, they wanted to help. And they started to think about what they could bring to the table. And that’s when Dimko and Iryna, had their \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">a-ha\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> moment. “We’re nerds!” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’ve decided that well, we might just use our, uh, tech experience, our tech geekiness, uh, to, uh, innovate. Some of the approaches on the battlefield.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We figured out, okay, we can help better when our expertise is. So basically we started looking more into more advanced equipment. We started looking into drone and things like that and because we had friends in the military, uh, it was like our first point of contact because like we had people we could trust. And we started, you know, buying and supplying some tech devices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They started with what their friends in the military really needed: equipment. Drones, Starlink units — which provide remote internet access – long-range encrypted radios, thermal cameras. Dzyga’s paw has since grown from a scrappy idea into a multi-million dollar nonprofit. In October alone, they delivered over $230,000 worth of equipment to the military, according to the organization. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And all of this high tech gear goes to soldiers and drone operators who are stationed near the frontlines.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They often work in hideouts, or command centers, miles from the front, flying drones by remote control while wearing a headset that shows exactly what the device sees through its camera. Other soldiers sit beside them, watching live maps on screens, calling out targets and coordinates in real time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dimko explains what these command centers look like in action.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Basically an underground shelter with, uh, tons of, uh, big ass four screen TVs or something. Uh, and guys looking like they just finished the MIT or something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So literally geeks of the war, sitting in those command centers and analyzing what is happening at the battlefield, and then suggesting what decisions should be taken to be the most effective.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> About a year ago, Dimko also enlisted as a drone operator for a Ukrainian military unit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because this is my chance to, uh, well defend my home, defend my family, and, uh, in the end defend my country.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically the job is to do the reconnaissance. Um, you have this big UAV that, uh, like a fixed wing kind of a thing that you launch in the air.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Drone warfare has quickly become one of the defining characteristics of this conflict. The kind Dimko pilots are called UAVs — or unmanned aerial vehicles. They look like small airplanes, and like Dimko said, they’re mainly used for reconnaissance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It has the radio connection, so you have the radio signal link, uh, to it. And, uh, you have the live stream from that, you stream that footage into one of the IT systems that we have, uh, in the armed forces.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein in tape:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So all of the people interested in the situation in the area. Can watch that live stream. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then there’s this other kind of drone, called an FPV. That stands for first-person-view. They’re some of the most common drones on the battlefield right now. Once upon a time, these drones were mainly the toys of hobbyists and creatives. You know that insufferable wedding reel you saw on Instagram? Probably shot on an FPV drone.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When Russia invaded, the Ukrainian military started rolling them out on a massive scale. They cost next to nothing. They’re endlessly scalable, and for a country like Ukraine, with far fewer resources and manpower than Russia, they’ve been a game-changer. Drones that can be bought for just a few hundred dollars are now taking out Russian tanks and artillery worth millions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are swarms of these things buzzing around now on the front, some with cameras for spying, others loaded with explosives to detonate on their targets. And they’re responsible for massive damage. Drones now account for as much as seventy percent of casualties on both sides, according to Ukrainian officials.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Experts are already warning that this rapid, wide-scale shift could dramatically change the future of conflict. Other countries are likely to learn from or maybe adopt the technologies and tactics deployed in this war. And It’s not just militaries that can repurpose these technologies. Paramilitaries, militias, and extremist groups can all easily purchase and deploy drone technology. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As drone warfare becomes more lethal on the battlefield, Dimko tells me that his work is also getting more treacherous as the war progresses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dimko Zhluktenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is very and very dangerous because the kill zone is getting wider and wider because of the danger of FPV drones there in our direction.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have a lot of, uh, Russian groups there, specifically hunting pilots like us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But even though Dimko is now an official member of the Ukrainian military, the organization he helps run, Dzyga’s Paw, started completely outside of that system as a grassroots, volunteer mission. And now it’s directly helping units like his and this is really common. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ukraine is heavily dependent on volunteers. People like the Dzyga’s Paw team, delivering supplies to the frontlines, volunteer air defense groups that shoot down Russian drones in the middle of the night, or Ukrainian tech companies building safety apps for civilians. All of this experimentation, this volunteer work – it’s been a really important part of Ukraine’s survival. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a classic battlefield, it’d fail. But, um, it’s a constant competition of technology again and I still feel we are more rapid. We are more fast in terms of inventing something new. I wanna believe at least that, um, it all comes from our initial desire to survive and to fight for our country ’cause uh, there were many different people with different careers and professions, but, uh, huge part of them switched to thinking in this direction. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And this bottom-up, grassroots approach represents a fundamental difference between how Ukraine and Russia operate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Iryna Zhluktenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Compared to Russia, it’s like they don’t have a, they like, everything is very like, top down. It’s controlled from the,yeah, from the state. So, indeed they have great engineers, but they are given like a task to develop something, to come up with a solution. While in Ukraine, it’s more of a like, grassroots thing and sometimes something brilliant just comes out of nowhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So how did Ukraine get here to this nimble and adaptive space for innovation and experimentation? And why does it all remind me so much of the tech culture in the Bay Area? We’ll get into that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, we’re back. Time to open a new tab: [\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ukraine’s culture of tech innovation.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To help us understand Ukraine’s tech culture, we’re taking a visit to MacPaw — one of the most successful tech companies to come out of Ukraine before the war. They created the CleanMyMac software. I’m at the company’s headquarters in Kyiv.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This building was actually hit by a Russian missile back in December. There are still some traces of the attack around the building: Window glass damaged, parts of the exterior crumbling. Here’s MacPaw CEO Oleksandr Kosovan describing that day:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oleksandr Kosovan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The rockets were very powerful so they destroyed all the facade of the building. All the windows were shattered. A lot of damage inside the office, but nothing super critical. We were very lucky in that none of our employees were injured. It was scary.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> MacPaw has built several digital tools to support Ukraine during the war, including an app to help Ukrainian companies check on employees after attacks, software that helps computers identify Russian malware, and a special VPN to help people in occupied territories circumvent Russian censorship.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While getting a tour of the MacPaw office, something catches my eye. It’s a wall filled with a collection of old Apple products from across the ages. It’s got ancient looking grey computers, and those bulky, colorful desktops that always felt to me like the computer version of a jolly rancher. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein in tape:\u003c/b> \u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I remember having these in school. It brings me back. Very nostalgic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oleksandr created this wall as an homage to Apple, which has always been an inspiration to him. Before the war, he wanted to create a museum full of the company’s products. For now, this wall is a little shrine in the middle of the MacPaw office.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As a Bay Area resident, it’s kind of funny, being here and seeing traces of where I’m from all over the tech industry here. Granted, Silicon Valley is hugely influential but what surprises me is just how intertwined Silicon Valley and Ukraine’s tech industries are. Like how Iryna of Dzyga’s Paw worked for a San Francisco startup.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this is not unusual I’m learning. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For years, tech companies from San Francisco to San Jose have relied on Ukrainian engineers for their technical skills, English fluency, and lower labor costs. Companies like Google, Grammarly (which was founded by Ukrainians), Ring, JetBridge, and Caspio all had employees based in Ukraine when Russia began its full-scale invasion.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a general cultural ethos here that feels familiar to my Bay Area sensibilities, like the food trucks, ping pong tables, and hoodies I see all over tech campuses in Kyiv. There was one friendship bracelet-wearing tech worker I talk to who tells me all about her recent ayahuasca healing journey in South America. I felt like I was back at home.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there are all the personal connections I notice with the Ukrainians I meet. Some worked for Bay Area companies. Or, have friends who live there for work. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And since the war began, these transnational ties have become a quiet but meaningful network of support for Ukraine. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Silicon Valley–based nonprofit Nova Ukraine, which was co-founded by a former Facebook and Google employee from Kharkiv, has raised over $160 million in humanitarian aid.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Iryna’s old employer, JustAnswer, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">has expanded its Ukrainian workforce. It funded a pediatric mental health center in the country as well. Caspio \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">helped relocate dozens of Ukrainian staffers safely out of the country, and\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> continues supporting staff remotely. Sometimes, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">company Zoom calls will be interrupted by the wail of a siren telling Ukrainian workers to go to a bomb shelter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While there’s a lot of overlap between these two parts of the world, the innovation mindset that runs through Ukraine’s tech sector has deep roots. It started long before Steve Jobs or Silicon Valley exploded onto the global scene, like, decades before.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 1951, when Ukraine was still part of the USSR, engineers on the outskirts of Kyiv developed the first computer in all of Europe. They worked around the clock, under tough conditions, in a crumbling old building that was ravaged by bombing during WWII. The people who made this computer, they’re considered the godfathers of Ukrainian IT. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s Oleksandr again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oleksandr Kosovan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the, uh [inaudible] or IT on that era was actually originated from Ukraine. And um, beside that, there were like so many engineers, like my father was an engineer. There are so, so many great engineers that were working for this industry back then. And, and this basically were like the birth of the modern IT industry in Ukraine. So when the USSR collapsed, this talent and this, uh, uh, knowledge, uh, stayed in, in Ukraine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And today, the industry those engineers helped to create now plays a significant role in Ukraine’s economy. In 2024, Ukraine’s IT sector contributed 3.4% to Ukraine’s GDP, behind only the agricultural industry, according to a report published by the IT Association of Ukraine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oleksandr Kosovan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Literally hundreds of thousands of people joined, uh, Ukrainian army. They started to bring their experience and their, like, creative, uh, vision and approach, uh, to the Army. And they started to apply, uh, some changes from, from bottom up. Uh, because, uh, these generals here, they probably know how to, uh, find the war of previous era, uh, but they don’t, uh, definitely understand how they can apply these technologies in order to, to receive some, some advantage. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> To this point, we’ve been mostly talking about the physical battlefield, like drones attacking targets in the real world. But a new frontline has emerged in this war — the internet. And the tools and tactics needed to fight in these spaces look completely different. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The new digital battlefield.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our guide to this world is David Kirichenko, a fellow journalist who splits his time between the U.S. and Ukraine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m a war journalist and since 2022, I’ve been working on the front lines, um, in Ukraine.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But he’s also been reporting on another front: the digital fight between the two countries. Because the information space between Russia and Ukraine has become its own proxy war, with each vying for support at home and abroad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It certainly has, I think, a very big impact on what goes on the physical battlefield just from the amount of influence and impact that you can have. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Russia’s a country long known for its sophisticated cyber warfare campaigns. In the current conflict, it’s been deploying vast amounts of disinformation online to weaken support for Ukraine around the world — on social media, fake news sites, even video games. This practice, as David points out, has deep roots, going back to the Cold War.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Even since the 1980s, the Russians first started out by building like a newspaper in India. It prints a fake story and then you have a, a more slightly more credible one, print that, and then everyone just starts citing it and it circulates around the world. And an MIT study showed that, um, like the fake news it it spreads like six, seven times faster than the truth.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Enter: The Fellas. They’re a niche online community that has come together to fight Russian disinformation. They call themselves the North Atlantic Fellas Organization, or NAFO, for short. And because it’s the internet, their entire social media “army” has adopted the likeness of one very good boy: A Shiba Inu.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The members of this online battalion, who like to be called the Fellas, usually identify themselves on Twitter, or X, with a cartoon Shiba avatar. And they have one major purpose: To take up digital arms against Russian propaganda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When a pro-Russian narrative pops up on social media, The Fellas leap into action. Their objective is to distract, mock and debunk the Kremlin’s talking points. Politico called the group “a sh*t posting, Twitter-trolling, dog-deploying social media army taking on Putin one meme at a time.” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are now thousands of Fellas out there in the digital dog fight. They’re an organic phenomenon, borne out of internet culture. And they make anyone who earnestly tries to engage with their trolling look ridiculous. “Oh, you’re fighting with a cartoon Shiba at 3 pm on a Tuesday? Don’t you have anything better to do?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The best way to counter Russia propaganda is by mocking it, ridiculing it, and showing that like, this is how ridiculous it is. And like you just make a joke at it yourself by sharing it. Just the fact that, you know, over the years you had all these high-ranking Russian and then other officials engaging with cartoon dogs on, on Twitter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A less cheeky example of digital warfare is the IT Army of Ukraine. They’re a collective of volunteer hackers around the world who coordinate cyber attacks against Russia. They’ve attacked thousands of targets since the war began, from Russian banks to media outlets, and power grids. In June 2024, the group claimed responsibility for a large-scale cyberattack against Russia’s banking system, reportedly causing outages on banking websites, apps, and payment systems. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The IT Army of Ukraine isn’t a traditional military unit. It’s a sprawling, loosely organized network that runs primarily online. They post updates and send communications on their Telegram channel, where they have nearly 115,000 subscribers. They also have a website that lays out more information about their work and how to get involved. One page, for example, is titled: “Instructions for setting up attacks on the enemy country.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David has also been reporting on this group. The IT Army’s spokesperson told him last year that its volunteer hackers had caused something like a billion dollars in damage from these attacks. David explains the anatomy of an attack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You typically have people that you have the toolkit installed so it doesn’t interfere with your, your Netflix or slow down your internet. You couldn’t set it to, I want to run from like 12:00 AM to 6:00 PM, I’m gonna leave my computer on. So if the IT army, like, runs the botnet and wants to direct an attack, it has the access to the compute to be able to run it and send pings from a lot of different places to overwhelm, um, a system. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so they like posted the, the toolkit onto their website so anyone’s able to go and, and download it. And it’s pretty, pretty simple to install it. And, uh, all you gotta do is just make sure that your computer is running and contributing your compute power to the botnet so that it’s overwhelming, like services when the attack begins.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve met people that said like, even my 12-year-old child is like doing these, uh, cyber attacks against Russia. They just download the toolkit and, you know, you set, you can even set a timer, allow your computer to participate in this botnet\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But these IT soldiers operate in a legally murky zone. There’s obviously something troubling about kids participating in cyberwar against another country. And, if someone participates in an attack from their couch on the other side of the world, are they breaking any laws?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is a gray space. How do governments prepare to legislate for this. Like, are you a combatant If you’re engaging in like cyber warfare? Are you breaking any laws? Should governments build a cyber reserve or some sort of like legal framework for their, like, people to be able to participate in this stuff? I mean, it, you know what, if you’re in Poland and then you’re conducting some cyber attacks and the Russians are very upset and they can launch a missile and they claim that you’re an enemy combatant. And yeah, just it’s, it’s a very challenging space and for I think lawmakers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For all the reasons he just laid out, most of the people I spoke with wouldn’t talk openly about participating in the IT Army. Though one person told me that “literally everyone with a laptop did.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Regardless, all these IT Army volunteers are having a real impact, David says. And this theme of a decentralized, grassroots approach as part of Ukraine’s strategy — chaotic with flashes of ingenuity — it keeps coming up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It ties back to Ukraine’s, wider story of, it’s a volunteer driven war effort. Like Ukrainian soldiers across the frontline are just dependent on online communities and, and volunteers. And so just people around the world have had such a big impact, both in information space, getting supplies to soldiers. Um, and one of the other ways has been on the cyber realm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This grassroots system is pretty much the opposite of how \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Russia\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> does things. Which is centralized, top down, structured. Just a few solutions, scaled across every single military unit. They’re two competing philosophies fueling this technological arms race between Russia and Ukraine. A war of who’s quicker to out-innovate the other side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ukraine is so decentralized, it’s kind of its biggest strength and biggest weaknesses. You have a zoo of solutions of every volunteer group. They’re making, they’re iterating, but then there’s so many different technologies and, and weapons, that everyone’s using different things and it’s hard to standardize, but then it also makes it very effective. But then the Russians learn what’s working and over time they can steer \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, the whole war machine to focus on a, on a few things, and it’s sharing those lessons. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And no matter how things end, what they’re coming up with is changing what war looks like altogether. With major implications.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Kirichenko:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Drones dominate not just the, the frontline itself, but it’s changed like naval warfare. Ukrainians’ naval drones have helped to neutralize a third of Russia’s Black Sea fleet, and they’re basically blockading Russia’s fleet that had to retreat from occupied Crimea. Ukraine has built, right, these ground robots that are becoming like mechanical medics, and the naval drones help shoot down multiple Russian helicopters, a couple of fighter jets. And those two fighter jets that were lost in Mayra, um, each like 50 million. So you can have a sea drone worth like 200, $300,000 with the, uh, missile worth that much or less, shooting down something that’s $50 million.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so we’re going to continue to see the proliferation of like, cheaper, faster tech. And we gotta learn what, you know, how do we prepare for that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Hellerstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Technology is fundamentally a gray area. It’s built on these bursts of genius and promise, and also shows up in our modern world in dark and scary ways. It’s that first European computer, created out of the ashes of a bombed-out building in the Soviet Union. It’s Silicon Valley revolutionizing the world we now inhabit. For better, in some ways and in many ways, for worse: consolidating power, money, data, and influence, on an unimaginable scale.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s the real story of the geeks of war. There are the lifesaving apps, like Air Alert, Telegram channels with real-time information about missiles and drones, VPNs connecting people in occupied territories to a bigger, broader, information ecosystem- Tools that are keeping people safe, connected and alive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there are also new technologies that are killing people, and the potentially catastrophic consequences of cyber saber-rattling. Destroyer drones, yes, they can give an underdog country like Ukraine an edge, but when you stop and think about their capabilities, the damage that can be unleashed with a tool literally anyone can buy for just a few hundred dollars, it’s terrifying. And then of course, there’s cyberwarfare, which can take down a whole country’s infrastructure, cripple power grids, communication networks, financial systems and thrust us all into completely uncharted geopolitical territory. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It reminds me of the early days of social media. When Google was still telling us not to be evil. When social networks were described as a revolutionary, democratizing force, helping to topple authoritarian regimes, organize mass protest, connect people all over the world. But we all know what actually happened was a lot more complicated than Big Tech’s aspirational mottos. The lens flipped. The narrative cracked. And now we’re living on the other side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what will be the story we tell about all these tools 10, 20 years from now? The technology we’re seeing in this war is opening up a new frontier. But who knows where it will be deployed next: What it will look like, who it will target. The geeks are showing us the future we just don’t know where it will lead.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks to Erica Hellerstein for her reporting and collaboration on this episode. Erica’s reporting was supported by a fellowship through the International Women’s Media Foundation’s Women on the Ground: Reporting from Ukraine’s Unseen Frontlines Initiative in partnership with the Howard G. Buffett Foundation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With that, it’s time to close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios in San Francisco, and is hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chris Hambrick is our editor. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "where-do-games-go-when-they-die",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When Ubisoft, publisher of the sprawling open-world racing game \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Crew\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> shut down the game’s servers, cutting off access to even its single-player mode, fans were outraged. The moment tapped into their decades of frustration with the gaming industry’s push toward online-only content — and what some now call the growing epidemic of “game death.” In this episode, host Morgan Sung is joined by Ross Scott, a filmmaker and YouTube creator who launched the “Stop Killing Games” campaign. They’ll cover the push for new regulations requiring publishers to plan for the end of their games’ lifespans. Then, Morgan talks with gaming journalist Nicole Carpenter about the passionate community that formed around the mobile game \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kim Kardashian: Hollywood\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, and how gamers grieve the loss of their favorite virtual worlds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8671440434\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@Accursed_Farms\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ross Scott\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, filmmaker, creator, and founder of the Stop Killing Games movement\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/sweetpotatoes?lang=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nicole Carpenter\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, freelance reporter\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://aftermath.site/anthem-server-shutdown-trying-for-the-first-time-bioware-ea/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With Anthem’s Impending Server Shutdown, I’m Trying It For The First Time\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nicole Carpenter, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aftermath\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.polygon.com/24152760/kim-kardashian-hollywood-glu-mobile-game-legacy/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kim Kardashian: Hollywood has an unlikely, lasting place in gaming history\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nicole Carpenter, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Polygon\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pcmag.com/news/stop-killing-games-campaign-closes-in-on-getting-eu-regulators-to-intervene\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Stop Killing Games’ Campaign Closes in on Getting EU Regulators to Intervene\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jon Martindale, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">PC Mag\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://theconversation.com/stop-killing-games-demands-for-game-ownership-must-also-include-workers-rights-262774\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Stop Killing Games’: Demands for game ownership must also include workers’ rights\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Louis-Etienne Dubois and Miikka J. Lehtonen, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Conversation\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://youtu.be/w70Xc9CStoE?si=-lmbSPUoeyXVYxa1\">The largest campaign ever to stop publishers destroying games\u003c/a> — Ross Scott, \u003ci>Accursed Farms (YouTube) \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung, Host:\u003c/strong> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2014, Ubisoft launched a racing game called The Crew. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Driving sounds from The Crew video game]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All units, there’s a dangerous driver in your area. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The crew has a real fast and furious vibe to it. You play as a guy who’s been framed for the murder of his brother, who takes a deal with the FBI to infiltrate and take down a corrupt criminal organization. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Driving sounds from The Crew video game]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cb>\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All units, rollover in place. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And to work your way to the top, you have to drive a lot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driving games, they’re less common as they used to be. So the ones that are good or semi-decent tend to have a lingering fan base now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Ross Scott, a filmmaker who runs the YouTube channel Accursed Farms. He’s also a gamer and was a huge fan of The Crew. The game had an intriguing story, cool missions to complete, and all of these ways to customize your car to make it feel like it’s really yours. But what Ross loved most about the game was the driving. The Crew was an open world game and he spent hours exploring. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it still is the second largest driving game ever made and it contains kind of a miniaturized version of the continental United States where you can literally drive for hours in it and see the different landscapes like the Rockies in the west or swamps in the south. They kind of had miniaturized versions of different cities in there too. So you have San Francisco, LA, New York, Miami. Like, you can go by the Pentagon and you can go by Mount Rushmore. It’s exactly the sort of game you would hope to see from a big company with lots of resources to throw at something. It is just so huge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But, there is this one aspect of the game that always bugged Ross. You needed an internet connection to play, which meant that The Crew would only remain playable as long as Ubisoft kept its servers running, even in single player mode. That meant that if the company ever decided to pull the plug, the game would be dead. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Literally no one can ever play it again. It’s just not even possible no matter how much you do want to play it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s exactly what happened to The Crew. In the spring of 2024, about a decade after launching the game, Ubisoft shut down the crew’s servers. The company said that the shutdown was due to, “upcoming server infrastructure and licensing constraints.” Most of the time, when a product is discontinued, it’s removed from the shelves. But if you already owned that product, you can generally keep using it. But in this case, Ubisoft made it impossible to play The Crew at all. The company even revoked digital licenses for the game, preventing players from setting up private servers, which would have allowed them to continue playing. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As a seasoned gamer, Ross knew that The Crew was fragile and susceptible to game death, but it didn’t make the shutdown any less infuriating. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The closest real world analogy I can think of would be printers. Say you buy a printer for your computer, but then after two years it just stops. And then you find out, oh, that’s because it was connecting to the server. Well, it still has ink. It can still run, I mean, physically run, but it just won’t print anything because it was depending on that signal from the company. And they just decided to cut it and you can’t use your printer now. That’s essentially what’s happening with these games. And they can say, well, we designed it that way. It’s like, yeah, but you didn’t have to, and it’s still very capable of printing things without you doing this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As someone who started gaming decades ago, Ross has experienced game death over and over again. The Crew was his last straw and spurred him to start the Stop Killing Games movement, which has sparked global debate about the issue.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In today’s episode, we’re exploring what happens when games die, how the industry got here, why gamers are up in arms about it, and whether there’s any right way to let a game die gracefully. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab. How do games die? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To get to the bottom of this, we’re calling up an industry expert, Nicole Carpenter. She’s a journalist who’s been covering the games industry for years. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to start off, like, what goes into the decision to take a game offline? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, let me take a step back. Because when we’re talking about games that are being taken offline, we’re taking about games that are multiplayer, usually, and online games, so games with an online component. Like, a game that you purchased for the Nintendo 64 back in the day, that game’s always gonna be there. But for a game with an on-line component, it relies on servers that the company controls, and they can take those servers down at any time they want. And usually, it’s related to money. When a game has a player base that is really small or a game that isn’t generating enough money to make it worth it for the corporation that is running this game, that’s often when you will see a game go offline. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, let’s look at one specific game as a case study and it’s one that I really loved like, when it first launched: Kim Kardashian Hollywood. Kim Kardashian Hollywood was a free-to-play mobile game set in a cartoon version of Los Angeles. Once you level up enough and pay real-world money for in-game perks, you could take your private jet around the world, photoshoots in Paris, vacationing in Bora Bora, Fashion Week in New York. You get the idea. It was an animated slice of the real Kim Kardashian’s life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This game was about rising through the Hollywood rankings. You’re trying to get to the A list, but you’re like really far down in the alphabet. You meet Kim Kardashian.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sounds from Kim Kardashian: Hollywood] I need something cute but super quick. Can you help me find something? I could really use your help. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And she helps you like rise through the influencer, social media celebrity ranking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sounds from Kim Kardashian: Hollywood]: This is super cute. Thank you so much for your help.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The game was based around a storyline that follows you throughout that journey, but it was also largely about fashion, collecting fashion items, and building up this amazing library of clothes… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sounds from Kim Kardashian: Hollywood]: You look stunning. Welcome to the A-List!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…doing it you know with Kim Kardashian as your best friend. It was interesting because it was tapping into culture. You could go on dates, photoshoots. You can visit your friends, and it got frequent updates and it referenced things that were happening in the world, both in Kim Kardashian’s life, but also just kind of like cultural moments as as well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I remember they responded like in real time to real-world fashion trends like when off-the-shoulder tops were in they had off- the-shoulders tops in Kim Kardashian Hollywood. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. A thing that was also really interesting about this game is that it was funny. It kind of saw how ridiculous, absurd this idea is. You know, you’re Kim Kardashian’s best friend. It’s very self-aware in its humor. And that was another draw for people, is that it was really earnest, but it was also self- aware. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it was like, playing on this kind of parasocial relationship with like, Kim Kardashian, the real person, and then also Kim Kardashian your in-game friend. Yeah. What was the emotional investment here? Like, why were people so into this game beyond the fashion and the glam of Kim Kardashian? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For a game that updates so frequently, it becomes like a ritualized experience and you are coming into this day knowing that like, there are going to be things for you to do and to check off on this game. And so it really becomes embedded in a person’s life in a way, because you expect there’s something new to do in that game. And I think that is part of what made this game such a big part of people’s lives is because it became that sort of daily habit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Kim Kardashian:Hollywood player 1] When I tell you I am a A plus plus plus member in the top 100 of the game world, number 11, if we want to be exact, 595.7 million fans. Baby, I take this game very seriously. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s also the community around it. Kim Kardashian: Hollywood is not a multiplayer game, but online, a community built around it, people who are sharing the creations that they made, sharing their fashion, talking about the storylines, talking about the characters, and you’re able to build a community from something like, that isn’t multiplayer game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Players were, you know, getting emotionally attached to the game, but they also, to get all these outfits, to get these fun little accessories, they had to spend real money. Can you talk about the kind of like monetary investment people were making into this game? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People were spending a lot of money. People were spending thousands of dollars on this sort of thing. And the fashion was compelling enough that it was worth it for a lot of people and they spent so much. This game generated hundreds of millions of dollars. I believe the total was around $600 million over the course of its lifetime, maybe more. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite making so much money, in 2024, the studio decided to shut down Kim Kardashian: Hollywood. Nicole said it was a combination of diminishing returns, a complicated licensing agreement with Kim Kardashian herself, and a larger move away from mobile gaming by the parent Studio EA.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When it was announced that this game was going offline, the community was so, so sad. One of the things that popped up almost instantly was people creating funeral outfits. People were creating like the most fabulous, amazing, all-black, just like, funeral garb to wear to the Kim Kardashian: Hollywood funeral. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Kim Kardashian:Hollywood player 2] Kim Kardashian, are you okay with this? What is going on? Please do not take this game. What am I supposed to do? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Kim Kardashian:Hollywood player 3] Because I worked hard to get to level 26 and it’s being ripped away from me. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Kim Kardashian:Hollywood player 4] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I tell you I have invested so much time and money, it’s ridiculous. I have purchased so many outfits, jewelry, makeup, blemish, all of that. Kim, I need my money back or you can send me my outfits in the mail, whichever one you prefer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The community was devastated. They were so devastated that some people immediately started spinning up like, so where are we going next? What game are we moving on to? Some fans are even working on creating a new game to replace Kim Kardashian: Hollywood. I mean, let’s talk about the industry factors here in taking a game offline. Who’s making this decision to pull the plug? I would say it’s a mixture of the publishers and developers that are making these decisions and that for the majority of games, it is largely coming down to: is this making enough money to make the cost of the servers worth it? And a lot of the times they have been running these servers for years, like decades, and the player base has diminished. In other cases, these games have been running for weeks and the players have diminished and they pull the plug.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It seems like now a lot of games are taken offline before they even have a chance to like build a fanbase. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, yeah. There’s one game that came out recently, it’s called Concord, and it just didn’t hit with people. It was released and it never had that surge of players and just immediately started declining. It was turned off weeks into its release. I’m not sure why you would shut a game down after just weeks, you know, it it’s kind of ridiculous because there isn’t even a chance for the developers to improve a game, to make patches, to keep updating a game. Because there are instances where a game is released, it is released poorly, and then it can gain an audience back. And for a game like Concord, it shut down just weeks after. There isn’t even that chance. Games take a really long time to make, and there’s a lot of money that goes into that as well and for that to get thrown away so quickly without giving it a chance is like, pretty sad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like Nicole explained, there are a lot of industry factors that affect whether or not a game stays online. And now the odds are stacked against any new game that has to compete in this market. Is game death inevitable? Is there any way to future-proof our favorite online games? We’ll try to answer those questions after the break. Okay, we’re back. So, is game death inevitable? Well, the tides may finally be turning against the practice of pulling the plug on games. Time for a new tab. What is Stop Killing Games? For the most part, the issue of game death boils down to something called digital rights management, or DRM. We don’t technically own digital downloads, and even if you paid for it, your access to this content can be revoked at the whims of publishers. This goes for e-books, digital movies, TV shows, and, of course, games. And this DRM issue really bothers Ross, the YouTuber we heard from earlier. He says it wasn’t always like this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the transition where things really started shifting, in my opinion, I think was around 2004, 2005. That’s when you could buy games as a one-time purchase, but then you would still have to connect to the publisher in order for it to run. You don’t own the contents of what’s on the disk, you just own the piece of plastic. I’d say around the mid-2000s is when you started seeing a shift that, no, even if you bought that game, even if it was a physical copy at some point in the future, it became impossible to play it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ross was upset when The Crew shut down, but he wasn’t surprised. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Me liking the game was actually just a coincidence. I would have done this for any game because this issue has bothered me for a long time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He has been sounding the alarm since 2019, when he went viral with a video essay about game ownership.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Ross Scott in Youtube Speech]: Now I’ll warn you, this video is gonna be long and could get boring in spots, but it’s necessary. See, this is my declaration of war on games as a service.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Games as a service, or live service games, are typically online only, include microtransactions or subscription fees, and are continuously updated with new features. But what it really boils down to is the fact that players don’t control their access to the game. They depend on the company to keep it afloat. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ross posted that video six years ago, and he was already fed up back then. By the time Ubisoft killed The Crew, after years of watching beloved games bite the dust. He was ready to fight back. In April of last year, right after The Crew went down for good, Ross launched a campaign he called Stop Killing Games.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop Killing Games has been me just trying to work backwards from my conclusion, which is, I want to try and stop games being effectively killed this way. This was not hardly the first game that this sort of thing had happened to, but…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Earlier this year, Ross and a handful of Stop Killing Games volunteers conducted an informal report on the playability of 731 online-only games. Of those 731 games, nearly 70% were either dead or at risk of game death because publishers had no public plans for preserving them. The Crew is just one of many in a long line of dead and potentially doomed games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I realized if we don’t act on this game, yeah, there’s gonna be others, but this is about as good as it gets to try and test this because it was a relatively large game. It had, I think, a maximum of 12 million owners. It was also kind of black and white what happened where no one could run it again. Just the whole thing was gone. And the publisher was located in France, which has many more consumer protection laws than many other countries. So it would kind of maximize our chances that something could be done about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He posted his campaign manifesto on YouTube. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Ross Scott in Youtube Speech] Honestly, everything about what I’ve been doing has been an amateur effort. I don’t even want to be doing this. But if you care about this issue, I’m what you’re stuck with, because nobody else has stepped up. And I guess there is one thing that makes me a good candidate for this, and that, at least with me, you’re getting maximum hustle. I have decades worth of resentment on this issue. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop Killing Games started as a website, guiding gamers on how to petition their local governments and hold game companies to a higher standard. Then it became a movement. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I realized that we could try to submit this to consumer protection agencies in various countries because it had so many players. We could still get, we did end up getting several thousand complaints sent. That meant a lot of people still had proof of purchase of it. I kind of saw this as my only chance, momentum-wise, to do anything about this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop Killing Games organized government petitions and consumer agency complaints in Canada, the UK, Australia, and throughout Europe. They’ve had mixed results introducing legislation, but they might have some actual movement in the EU. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The big one ended up being a European citizens initiative where if enough people signed it, then that could be brought before the EU commission to create new law on it. I called it the moonshot. I wasn’t sure if it was realistic or not. And we ended up passing the signature threshold and now it’s kind of going through the government procedures. And I’m somewhat optimistic because if this practice of you know selling someone a game, then disabling it at an undisclosed date later, but keeping the money, if that was all completely legal, it’s been over a year since we submitted that. I would think they’d be able to give an answer by now saying, sorry, but this is lawful and you don’t have any case on this. I think what’s happening is this is a giant gray area in the law and they’re trying to unravel it all. If you have no idea how long a game you’re buying is going to last, I think that’s pretty relevant information. Because the span of online-only games, the shortest we’re aware of was a game called The Culling 2. It lasted eight days before shutting down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the longest that was made as a one-time purchase, so, you know, not a subscription, is Guild Wars, which is still going. So if you bought the disk in 2005 and never got around to playing it, you can still play it now, even though it’s online only. So that’s no standard at all for what consumer expectations are. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How did other people respond to you saying like, hey, we should do something about this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the majority of people thought, yeah, that’s a good idea because it’s kind of common sense that if you buy something, you should be able to keep it. This was never really codified in the laws, whether this was legal. It’s just that it had never been tested. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It seems like the most potential for real legislation here is in the EU. Do you think that could work in the US? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have talked to some US lawyers on it, they all agree that the only way to fix this is through an act of Congress. So I’m pretty pessimistic about being able to influence anything along those lines. That said, I think most of the world will get the benefits downstream if we win in a big enough country. Like, there’s actually a real world example of this sort of thing. In 2014, Australia’s consumer protection agency sued Valve for not allowing refunds of games people bought on Steam. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Valve started as a game developer and now owns Steam, the biggest digital platform for PC games. It’s where the majority of PC games are bought and sold, all digitally. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Valve lost that case so afterwards, rather than just allowing Australians to refund their games, they just made that global policy because I think they just didn’t want to deal with this in more countries and have more legal fees. And now that’s kind of common practice that you can refund a game if you only played a five minutes or something like that. The cost of basically not destroying a game and having some sort of end of life plan for it once the company’s done does not have to be that much if it’s planned for from the beginning. It’s just one step out of hundreds of making a game. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think what would happen is if they realize that there’s gonna be fines or some penalty for not having that, if they wanna sell in the EU, which has something like 450 million people. It’s a sizable market. We’ll decide, okay, when we shut down the game, we’ll release an end of life patch so people can keep playing it, but we don’t have to support anything. They may as well roll it out globally afterwards. So just because they’ll have already done the work on it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It doesn’t always have to be this way. Since Ross and the Stop Killing Games volunteers put together that playability report, they found that over 250 games survived after publishers took them offline. Let’s talk about these possible solutions in a new tab. Is there life after game death? That playability report from Ross and the Stop Killing Games volunteers, they found that over 230 games survived because of fan preservation projects. Another 30 are still playable thanks to their developers making end-of-life plans. What does that really mean? What does end- of-life care for a game look like? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our initiative is structured this way in that we’re actually trying to leave maximum flexibility to publishers and developers and how they solve it. Every game is different. If there’s just one thing to do, it’s have an end-of-life plan for when you have to end support to the game so that it’s not impossible to play it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, the most common way to do that might be to just, if it’s a single-player one, have an offline mode. If it’s smaller scale game, maybe allow like, private servers that people can host. If it was a big complex one, like an MMO, then maybe having something where they release like a version of the server software that customers can maybe run separately. But we’re not mandating any one solution, but just realize that you won’t be able to support your game forever. That’s kind of inevitable. And as long as that’s planned for, it really doesn’t become a problem. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most games are already compliant with what we’re asking for. And ironically, a lot of online multiplayer games from the late 90s, early 2000s are still playable today, even if the companies don’t exist anymore, because they planned ahead for that. This is not some undiscovered formula for how to do this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gamers get a bad rap for being reactive and angry and complaining all the time. Sometimes it’s deserved. They can be annoying. And sometimes all that complaining can be channeled into something actually productive, like changing the games industry. In the meantime, there are some smaller efforts underway to make it more clear to customers whether the game they’re buying could eventually go away, like The Crew did. Here’s Nicole again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’re playing a game that has a single player component, usually if the multiplayer component goes away, you can still access the single player. The Crew didn’t have that at all. So for people who purchased this game after it was released in 2014, there’s no more access there. This comes down to a problem with the idea of licensing versus ownership. So when you are buying a game with an online component, you are licensing the game and you are not outright purchasing it. So you are paying the company for access and they can take that away at any time. And so there has been a movement to change some laws, specifically in California, when you’re buying a game there has to be some kind of like a label that’s like you don’t own this you’re licensing it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As of January this year, California law requires digital stores, like game platforms such as Steam, to disclose what the buyer is really getting when they pay for something. They can’t prompt you to buy or purchase a game if you’re only getting a license that can be yanked back at any time. Do you think a, like, “you don’t own this” kind of label on a game is satisfying to players?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, absolutely not. Like it’s not satisfying to players at all. Like, people want it to be like it used to be like, when you buy something, you own it. It’s a problem with ebooks. It’s a problem with music. It’s problem with the games collectively, like in your Steam library. I wrote a story about, you know, where do your Steam games go when you die because of these licensing issues. That you’d like legally can’t pass those games down to anyone, you know, they’re just like stuck in your account because they’re yours, not theirs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s bleak.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there any way for companies to let games die gracefully? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do think there is. I don’t know, however, if big corporations are willing to do the things necessary to allow this to happen. Some players are hoping that studios and developers could go open source and so like, hand over some of the file’s code arts to the player base because if they’re not going to invest into it anymore, you know, they’re necessarily like, losing out on money by going open source, um, and so handing it over to like, a dedicated fan base could be a way to keep those servers running at like no additional cost to the developer. And that is a possibility. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But if fans are crafty enough, they might be able to figure out how to keep playing their favorite games, even if publishers aren’t cooperating. And that’s what happened with The Crew. Players have recently reverse engineered the digital key that unlocks the game. As of September this year, the game is back. It’s not exactly the same, but this fan effort managed to breathe new life into a game that was previously dead. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the exception to the rule, and I’m thankful it has happened. What’s really going on with most of these games is a whole lot of the content is on the customer system or their disk or, you know, like the textures, models, sounds, and everything. And usually the part that’s held by the company is code for kind of managing how that all connects and it’s runs. So it’s kind of like having a locked car in your garage and you can’t get open, but they have the keys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what will happen sometimes is you have these, honestly, geniuses reverse engineering how that game worked and trying to take their best guess at figuring it out. This almost always takes years of work with people who really know what they’re doing, they’re experts in the field. I’ve compared it to like reconstructing a photograph from the ashes that has been burned. But sometimes with enough time and effort, they can do it. In fact, in one video, I compared it to trying to crack the code the Germans were doing at World War II in terms of complexity, only to have people comment saying, no, it’s more complicated than that. A group that’s been working on it a little under two years managed to do that for The Crew, and now it is back. If you bought the original for PC, you can run it again now, offline and online. It’s the sort of thing where it took them a little over two years, and that’s honestly a best-case scenario. If they had access to the relevant code, they probably could have done it in a day or two. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it’s incredible that they were able to reverse engineer this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honestly, I think it’s gonna be an even better experience than when it was being supported because now it also allows for lots of modifications to it. And there were things I wanted like adjusting the field of view or brighter headlights in the game. Whereas if you were to do that when it’s being supported, that would be detected as a hack because it is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there still more work left to be done in keeping games alive? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I never really wanted to be doing any of this. I’m just trying to do as much as I can to try to stop this practice and then just kind of be done with it. I guess I am glad that it seems like we’re not in the minority that people don’t like seeing things they’ve bought destroyed. It can feel like a Twilight Zone episode sometimes where you have to convince people that no, maybe this isn’t a good practice to just destroy things that you pay for when we can prevent it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In some rare cases, there is life after death, game death, at least. But for the majority of online games that shut down without an end of life plan, the best we can do is mourn them. Sometimes that looks like fondly watching old gameplay footage on YouTube. Or it might look like slaying a funeral fit and sharing screenshots with other players on Reddit. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, it’s a memorial segment at the end of your favorite podcast. Let’s take a moment to remember a few of the games that didn’t survive and the games that are on their way out: The Sims Mobile, Anthem, Battleborn, Concord, Babylon’s Fall, Dear Hunter Classic, House of Newerth, Overwatch 1, MapleStory 2, Skyforge, and the one and only Kim Kardashian: Hollywood. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Francesca Fenzi and edited by Chris Egusa. Close All tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Chris Egusa is our senior editor and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Springer is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more. It would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too, or even your enemies or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "When Ubisoft, publisher of the sprawling open-world racing game The Crew shut down the game’s servers, cutting off access to even its single-player mode, fans were outraged. The moment tapped into their decades of frustration with the gaming industry’s push toward online-only content — and what some now call the growing epidemic of “game death.” In this episode, host Morgan Sung is joined by Ross Scott, a filmmaker and YouTube creator who launched the “Stop Killing Games” campaign. They’ll cover the push for new regulations requiring publishers to plan for the end of their games’ lifespans. Then, Morgan talks with gaming journalist Nicole Carpenter about the passionate community that formed around the mobile game Kim Kardashian: Hollywood, and how gamers grieve the loss of their favorite virtual worlds.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When Ubisoft, publisher of the sprawling open-world racing game \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Crew\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> shut down the game’s servers, cutting off access to even its single-player mode, fans were outraged. The moment tapped into their decades of frustration with the gaming industry’s push toward online-only content — and what some now call the growing epidemic of “game death.” In this episode, host Morgan Sung is joined by Ross Scott, a filmmaker and YouTube creator who launched the “Stop Killing Games” campaign. They’ll cover the push for new regulations requiring publishers to plan for the end of their games’ lifespans. Then, Morgan talks with gaming journalist Nicole Carpenter about the passionate community that formed around the mobile game \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kim Kardashian: Hollywood\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, and how gamers grieve the loss of their favorite virtual worlds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8671440434\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@Accursed_Farms\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ross Scott\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, filmmaker, creator, and founder of the Stop Killing Games movement\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/sweetpotatoes?lang=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nicole Carpenter\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, freelance reporter\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://aftermath.site/anthem-server-shutdown-trying-for-the-first-time-bioware-ea/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With Anthem’s Impending Server Shutdown, I’m Trying It For The First Time\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nicole Carpenter, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aftermath\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.polygon.com/24152760/kim-kardashian-hollywood-glu-mobile-game-legacy/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kim Kardashian: Hollywood has an unlikely, lasting place in gaming history\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nicole Carpenter, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Polygon\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pcmag.com/news/stop-killing-games-campaign-closes-in-on-getting-eu-regulators-to-intervene\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Stop Killing Games’ Campaign Closes in on Getting EU Regulators to Intervene\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jon Martindale, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">PC Mag\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://theconversation.com/stop-killing-games-demands-for-game-ownership-must-also-include-workers-rights-262774\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Stop Killing Games’: Demands for game ownership must also include workers’ rights\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Louis-Etienne Dubois and Miikka J. Lehtonen, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Conversation\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://youtu.be/w70Xc9CStoE?si=-lmbSPUoeyXVYxa1\">The largest campaign ever to stop publishers destroying games\u003c/a> — Ross Scott, \u003ci>Accursed Farms (YouTube) \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung, Host:\u003c/strong> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2014, Ubisoft launched a racing game called The Crew. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Driving sounds from The Crew video game]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All units, there’s a dangerous driver in your area. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The crew has a real fast and furious vibe to it. You play as a guy who’s been framed for the murder of his brother, who takes a deal with the FBI to infiltrate and take down a corrupt criminal organization. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Driving sounds from The Crew video game]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cb>\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All units, rollover in place. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And to work your way to the top, you have to drive a lot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driving games, they’re less common as they used to be. So the ones that are good or semi-decent tend to have a lingering fan base now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Ross Scott, a filmmaker who runs the YouTube channel Accursed Farms. He’s also a gamer and was a huge fan of The Crew. The game had an intriguing story, cool missions to complete, and all of these ways to customize your car to make it feel like it’s really yours. But what Ross loved most about the game was the driving. The Crew was an open world game and he spent hours exploring. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it still is the second largest driving game ever made and it contains kind of a miniaturized version of the continental United States where you can literally drive for hours in it and see the different landscapes like the Rockies in the west or swamps in the south. They kind of had miniaturized versions of different cities in there too. So you have San Francisco, LA, New York, Miami. Like, you can go by the Pentagon and you can go by Mount Rushmore. It’s exactly the sort of game you would hope to see from a big company with lots of resources to throw at something. It is just so huge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But, there is this one aspect of the game that always bugged Ross. You needed an internet connection to play, which meant that The Crew would only remain playable as long as Ubisoft kept its servers running, even in single player mode. That meant that if the company ever decided to pull the plug, the game would be dead. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Literally no one can ever play it again. It’s just not even possible no matter how much you do want to play it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s exactly what happened to The Crew. In the spring of 2024, about a decade after launching the game, Ubisoft shut down the crew’s servers. The company said that the shutdown was due to, “upcoming server infrastructure and licensing constraints.” Most of the time, when a product is discontinued, it’s removed from the shelves. But if you already owned that product, you can generally keep using it. But in this case, Ubisoft made it impossible to play The Crew at all. The company even revoked digital licenses for the game, preventing players from setting up private servers, which would have allowed them to continue playing. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As a seasoned gamer, Ross knew that The Crew was fragile and susceptible to game death, but it didn’t make the shutdown any less infuriating. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The closest real world analogy I can think of would be printers. Say you buy a printer for your computer, but then after two years it just stops. And then you find out, oh, that’s because it was connecting to the server. Well, it still has ink. It can still run, I mean, physically run, but it just won’t print anything because it was depending on that signal from the company. And they just decided to cut it and you can’t use your printer now. That’s essentially what’s happening with these games. And they can say, well, we designed it that way. It’s like, yeah, but you didn’t have to, and it’s still very capable of printing things without you doing this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As someone who started gaming decades ago, Ross has experienced game death over and over again. The Crew was his last straw and spurred him to start the Stop Killing Games movement, which has sparked global debate about the issue.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In today’s episode, we’re exploring what happens when games die, how the industry got here, why gamers are up in arms about it, and whether there’s any right way to let a game die gracefully. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab. How do games die? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To get to the bottom of this, we’re calling up an industry expert, Nicole Carpenter. She’s a journalist who’s been covering the games industry for years. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to start off, like, what goes into the decision to take a game offline? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, let me take a step back. Because when we’re talking about games that are being taken offline, we’re taking about games that are multiplayer, usually, and online games, so games with an online component. Like, a game that you purchased for the Nintendo 64 back in the day, that game’s always gonna be there. But for a game with an on-line component, it relies on servers that the company controls, and they can take those servers down at any time they want. And usually, it’s related to money. When a game has a player base that is really small or a game that isn’t generating enough money to make it worth it for the corporation that is running this game, that’s often when you will see a game go offline. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, let’s look at one specific game as a case study and it’s one that I really loved like, when it first launched: Kim Kardashian Hollywood. Kim Kardashian Hollywood was a free-to-play mobile game set in a cartoon version of Los Angeles. Once you level up enough and pay real-world money for in-game perks, you could take your private jet around the world, photoshoots in Paris, vacationing in Bora Bora, Fashion Week in New York. You get the idea. It was an animated slice of the real Kim Kardashian’s life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This game was about rising through the Hollywood rankings. You’re trying to get to the A list, but you’re like really far down in the alphabet. You meet Kim Kardashian.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sounds from Kim Kardashian: Hollywood] I need something cute but super quick. Can you help me find something? I could really use your help. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And she helps you like rise through the influencer, social media celebrity ranking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sounds from Kim Kardashian: Hollywood]: This is super cute. Thank you so much for your help.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The game was based around a storyline that follows you throughout that journey, but it was also largely about fashion, collecting fashion items, and building up this amazing library of clothes… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sounds from Kim Kardashian: Hollywood]: You look stunning. Welcome to the A-List!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…doing it you know with Kim Kardashian as your best friend. It was interesting because it was tapping into culture. You could go on dates, photoshoots. You can visit your friends, and it got frequent updates and it referenced things that were happening in the world, both in Kim Kardashian’s life, but also just kind of like cultural moments as as well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I remember they responded like in real time to real-world fashion trends like when off-the-shoulder tops were in they had off- the-shoulders tops in Kim Kardashian Hollywood. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. A thing that was also really interesting about this game is that it was funny. It kind of saw how ridiculous, absurd this idea is. You know, you’re Kim Kardashian’s best friend. It’s very self-aware in its humor. And that was another draw for people, is that it was really earnest, but it was also self- aware. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it was like, playing on this kind of parasocial relationship with like, Kim Kardashian, the real person, and then also Kim Kardashian your in-game friend. Yeah. What was the emotional investment here? Like, why were people so into this game beyond the fashion and the glam of Kim Kardashian? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For a game that updates so frequently, it becomes like a ritualized experience and you are coming into this day knowing that like, there are going to be things for you to do and to check off on this game. And so it really becomes embedded in a person’s life in a way, because you expect there’s something new to do in that game. And I think that is part of what made this game such a big part of people’s lives is because it became that sort of daily habit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Kim Kardashian:Hollywood player 1] When I tell you I am a A plus plus plus member in the top 100 of the game world, number 11, if we want to be exact, 595.7 million fans. Baby, I take this game very seriously. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s also the community around it. Kim Kardashian: Hollywood is not a multiplayer game, but online, a community built around it, people who are sharing the creations that they made, sharing their fashion, talking about the storylines, talking about the characters, and you’re able to build a community from something like, that isn’t multiplayer game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Players were, you know, getting emotionally attached to the game, but they also, to get all these outfits, to get these fun little accessories, they had to spend real money. Can you talk about the kind of like monetary investment people were making into this game? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People were spending a lot of money. People were spending thousands of dollars on this sort of thing. And the fashion was compelling enough that it was worth it for a lot of people and they spent so much. This game generated hundreds of millions of dollars. I believe the total was around $600 million over the course of its lifetime, maybe more. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite making so much money, in 2024, the studio decided to shut down Kim Kardashian: Hollywood. Nicole said it was a combination of diminishing returns, a complicated licensing agreement with Kim Kardashian herself, and a larger move away from mobile gaming by the parent Studio EA.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When it was announced that this game was going offline, the community was so, so sad. One of the things that popped up almost instantly was people creating funeral outfits. People were creating like the most fabulous, amazing, all-black, just like, funeral garb to wear to the Kim Kardashian: Hollywood funeral. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Kim Kardashian:Hollywood player 2] Kim Kardashian, are you okay with this? What is going on? Please do not take this game. What am I supposed to do? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Kim Kardashian:Hollywood player 3] Because I worked hard to get to level 26 and it’s being ripped away from me. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Kim Kardashian:Hollywood player 4] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I tell you I have invested so much time and money, it’s ridiculous. I have purchased so many outfits, jewelry, makeup, blemish, all of that. Kim, I need my money back or you can send me my outfits in the mail, whichever one you prefer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The community was devastated. They were so devastated that some people immediately started spinning up like, so where are we going next? What game are we moving on to? Some fans are even working on creating a new game to replace Kim Kardashian: Hollywood. I mean, let’s talk about the industry factors here in taking a game offline. Who’s making this decision to pull the plug? I would say it’s a mixture of the publishers and developers that are making these decisions and that for the majority of games, it is largely coming down to: is this making enough money to make the cost of the servers worth it? And a lot of the times they have been running these servers for years, like decades, and the player base has diminished. In other cases, these games have been running for weeks and the players have diminished and they pull the plug.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It seems like now a lot of games are taken offline before they even have a chance to like build a fanbase. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, yeah. There’s one game that came out recently, it’s called Concord, and it just didn’t hit with people. It was released and it never had that surge of players and just immediately started declining. It was turned off weeks into its release. I’m not sure why you would shut a game down after just weeks, you know, it it’s kind of ridiculous because there isn’t even a chance for the developers to improve a game, to make patches, to keep updating a game. Because there are instances where a game is released, it is released poorly, and then it can gain an audience back. And for a game like Concord, it shut down just weeks after. There isn’t even that chance. Games take a really long time to make, and there’s a lot of money that goes into that as well and for that to get thrown away so quickly without giving it a chance is like, pretty sad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like Nicole explained, there are a lot of industry factors that affect whether or not a game stays online. And now the odds are stacked against any new game that has to compete in this market. Is game death inevitable? Is there any way to future-proof our favorite online games? We’ll try to answer those questions after the break. Okay, we’re back. So, is game death inevitable? Well, the tides may finally be turning against the practice of pulling the plug on games. Time for a new tab. What is Stop Killing Games? For the most part, the issue of game death boils down to something called digital rights management, or DRM. We don’t technically own digital downloads, and even if you paid for it, your access to this content can be revoked at the whims of publishers. This goes for e-books, digital movies, TV shows, and, of course, games. And this DRM issue really bothers Ross, the YouTuber we heard from earlier. He says it wasn’t always like this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the transition where things really started shifting, in my opinion, I think was around 2004, 2005. That’s when you could buy games as a one-time purchase, but then you would still have to connect to the publisher in order for it to run. You don’t own the contents of what’s on the disk, you just own the piece of plastic. I’d say around the mid-2000s is when you started seeing a shift that, no, even if you bought that game, even if it was a physical copy at some point in the future, it became impossible to play it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ross was upset when The Crew shut down, but he wasn’t surprised. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Me liking the game was actually just a coincidence. I would have done this for any game because this issue has bothered me for a long time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He has been sounding the alarm since 2019, when he went viral with a video essay about game ownership.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Ross Scott in Youtube Speech]: Now I’ll warn you, this video is gonna be long and could get boring in spots, but it’s necessary. See, this is my declaration of war on games as a service.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Games as a service, or live service games, are typically online only, include microtransactions or subscription fees, and are continuously updated with new features. But what it really boils down to is the fact that players don’t control their access to the game. They depend on the company to keep it afloat. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ross posted that video six years ago, and he was already fed up back then. By the time Ubisoft killed The Crew, after years of watching beloved games bite the dust. He was ready to fight back. In April of last year, right after The Crew went down for good, Ross launched a campaign he called Stop Killing Games.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop Killing Games has been me just trying to work backwards from my conclusion, which is, I want to try and stop games being effectively killed this way. This was not hardly the first game that this sort of thing had happened to, but…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Earlier this year, Ross and a handful of Stop Killing Games volunteers conducted an informal report on the playability of 731 online-only games. Of those 731 games, nearly 70% were either dead or at risk of game death because publishers had no public plans for preserving them. The Crew is just one of many in a long line of dead and potentially doomed games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I realized if we don’t act on this game, yeah, there’s gonna be others, but this is about as good as it gets to try and test this because it was a relatively large game. It had, I think, a maximum of 12 million owners. It was also kind of black and white what happened where no one could run it again. Just the whole thing was gone. And the publisher was located in France, which has many more consumer protection laws than many other countries. So it would kind of maximize our chances that something could be done about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He posted his campaign manifesto on YouTube. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Ross Scott in Youtube Speech] Honestly, everything about what I’ve been doing has been an amateur effort. I don’t even want to be doing this. But if you care about this issue, I’m what you’re stuck with, because nobody else has stepped up. And I guess there is one thing that makes me a good candidate for this, and that, at least with me, you’re getting maximum hustle. I have decades worth of resentment on this issue. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop Killing Games started as a website, guiding gamers on how to petition their local governments and hold game companies to a higher standard. Then it became a movement. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I realized that we could try to submit this to consumer protection agencies in various countries because it had so many players. We could still get, we did end up getting several thousand complaints sent. That meant a lot of people still had proof of purchase of it. I kind of saw this as my only chance, momentum-wise, to do anything about this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop Killing Games organized government petitions and consumer agency complaints in Canada, the UK, Australia, and throughout Europe. They’ve had mixed results introducing legislation, but they might have some actual movement in the EU. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The big one ended up being a European citizens initiative where if enough people signed it, then that could be brought before the EU commission to create new law on it. I called it the moonshot. I wasn’t sure if it was realistic or not. And we ended up passing the signature threshold and now it’s kind of going through the government procedures. And I’m somewhat optimistic because if this practice of you know selling someone a game, then disabling it at an undisclosed date later, but keeping the money, if that was all completely legal, it’s been over a year since we submitted that. I would think they’d be able to give an answer by now saying, sorry, but this is lawful and you don’t have any case on this. I think what’s happening is this is a giant gray area in the law and they’re trying to unravel it all. If you have no idea how long a game you’re buying is going to last, I think that’s pretty relevant information. Because the span of online-only games, the shortest we’re aware of was a game called The Culling 2. It lasted eight days before shutting down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the longest that was made as a one-time purchase, so, you know, not a subscription, is Guild Wars, which is still going. So if you bought the disk in 2005 and never got around to playing it, you can still play it now, even though it’s online only. So that’s no standard at all for what consumer expectations are. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How did other people respond to you saying like, hey, we should do something about this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the majority of people thought, yeah, that’s a good idea because it’s kind of common sense that if you buy something, you should be able to keep it. This was never really codified in the laws, whether this was legal. It’s just that it had never been tested. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It seems like the most potential for real legislation here is in the EU. Do you think that could work in the US? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have talked to some US lawyers on it, they all agree that the only way to fix this is through an act of Congress. So I’m pretty pessimistic about being able to influence anything along those lines. That said, I think most of the world will get the benefits downstream if we win in a big enough country. Like, there’s actually a real world example of this sort of thing. In 2014, Australia’s consumer protection agency sued Valve for not allowing refunds of games people bought on Steam. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Valve started as a game developer and now owns Steam, the biggest digital platform for PC games. It’s where the majority of PC games are bought and sold, all digitally. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Valve lost that case so afterwards, rather than just allowing Australians to refund their games, they just made that global policy because I think they just didn’t want to deal with this in more countries and have more legal fees. And now that’s kind of common practice that you can refund a game if you only played a five minutes or something like that. The cost of basically not destroying a game and having some sort of end of life plan for it once the company’s done does not have to be that much if it’s planned for from the beginning. It’s just one step out of hundreds of making a game. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think what would happen is if they realize that there’s gonna be fines or some penalty for not having that, if they wanna sell in the EU, which has something like 450 million people. It’s a sizable market. We’ll decide, okay, when we shut down the game, we’ll release an end of life patch so people can keep playing it, but we don’t have to support anything. They may as well roll it out globally afterwards. So just because they’ll have already done the work on it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It doesn’t always have to be this way. Since Ross and the Stop Killing Games volunteers put together that playability report, they found that over 250 games survived after publishers took them offline. Let’s talk about these possible solutions in a new tab. Is there life after game death? That playability report from Ross and the Stop Killing Games volunteers, they found that over 230 games survived because of fan preservation projects. Another 30 are still playable thanks to their developers making end-of-life plans. What does that really mean? What does end- of-life care for a game look like? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our initiative is structured this way in that we’re actually trying to leave maximum flexibility to publishers and developers and how they solve it. Every game is different. If there’s just one thing to do, it’s have an end-of-life plan for when you have to end support to the game so that it’s not impossible to play it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, the most common way to do that might be to just, if it’s a single-player one, have an offline mode. If it’s smaller scale game, maybe allow like, private servers that people can host. If it was a big complex one, like an MMO, then maybe having something where they release like a version of the server software that customers can maybe run separately. But we’re not mandating any one solution, but just realize that you won’t be able to support your game forever. That’s kind of inevitable. And as long as that’s planned for, it really doesn’t become a problem. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most games are already compliant with what we’re asking for. And ironically, a lot of online multiplayer games from the late 90s, early 2000s are still playable today, even if the companies don’t exist anymore, because they planned ahead for that. This is not some undiscovered formula for how to do this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gamers get a bad rap for being reactive and angry and complaining all the time. Sometimes it’s deserved. They can be annoying. And sometimes all that complaining can be channeled into something actually productive, like changing the games industry. In the meantime, there are some smaller efforts underway to make it more clear to customers whether the game they’re buying could eventually go away, like The Crew did. Here’s Nicole again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’re playing a game that has a single player component, usually if the multiplayer component goes away, you can still access the single player. The Crew didn’t have that at all. So for people who purchased this game after it was released in 2014, there’s no more access there. This comes down to a problem with the idea of licensing versus ownership. So when you are buying a game with an online component, you are licensing the game and you are not outright purchasing it. So you are paying the company for access and they can take that away at any time. And so there has been a movement to change some laws, specifically in California, when you’re buying a game there has to be some kind of like a label that’s like you don’t own this you’re licensing it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As of January this year, California law requires digital stores, like game platforms such as Steam, to disclose what the buyer is really getting when they pay for something. They can’t prompt you to buy or purchase a game if you’re only getting a license that can be yanked back at any time. Do you think a, like, “you don’t own this” kind of label on a game is satisfying to players?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, absolutely not. Like it’s not satisfying to players at all. Like, people want it to be like it used to be like, when you buy something, you own it. It’s a problem with ebooks. It’s a problem with music. It’s problem with the games collectively, like in your Steam library. I wrote a story about, you know, where do your Steam games go when you die because of these licensing issues. That you’d like legally can’t pass those games down to anyone, you know, they’re just like stuck in your account because they’re yours, not theirs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s bleak.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there any way for companies to let games die gracefully? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Carpenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do think there is. I don’t know, however, if big corporations are willing to do the things necessary to allow this to happen. Some players are hoping that studios and developers could go open source and so like, hand over some of the file’s code arts to the player base because if they’re not going to invest into it anymore, you know, they’re necessarily like, losing out on money by going open source, um, and so handing it over to like, a dedicated fan base could be a way to keep those servers running at like no additional cost to the developer. And that is a possibility. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But if fans are crafty enough, they might be able to figure out how to keep playing their favorite games, even if publishers aren’t cooperating. And that’s what happened with The Crew. Players have recently reverse engineered the digital key that unlocks the game. As of September this year, the game is back. It’s not exactly the same, but this fan effort managed to breathe new life into a game that was previously dead. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the exception to the rule, and I’m thankful it has happened. What’s really going on with most of these games is a whole lot of the content is on the customer system or their disk or, you know, like the textures, models, sounds, and everything. And usually the part that’s held by the company is code for kind of managing how that all connects and it’s runs. So it’s kind of like having a locked car in your garage and you can’t get open, but they have the keys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what will happen sometimes is you have these, honestly, geniuses reverse engineering how that game worked and trying to take their best guess at figuring it out. This almost always takes years of work with people who really know what they’re doing, they’re experts in the field. I’ve compared it to like reconstructing a photograph from the ashes that has been burned. But sometimes with enough time and effort, they can do it. In fact, in one video, I compared it to trying to crack the code the Germans were doing at World War II in terms of complexity, only to have people comment saying, no, it’s more complicated than that. A group that’s been working on it a little under two years managed to do that for The Crew, and now it is back. If you bought the original for PC, you can run it again now, offline and online. It’s the sort of thing where it took them a little over two years, and that’s honestly a best-case scenario. If they had access to the relevant code, they probably could have done it in a day or two. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it’s incredible that they were able to reverse engineer this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honestly, I think it’s gonna be an even better experience than when it was being supported because now it also allows for lots of modifications to it. And there were things I wanted like adjusting the field of view or brighter headlights in the game. Whereas if you were to do that when it’s being supported, that would be detected as a hack because it is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there still more work left to be done in keeping games alive? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ross Scott: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I never really wanted to be doing any of this. I’m just trying to do as much as I can to try to stop this practice and then just kind of be done with it. I guess I am glad that it seems like we’re not in the minority that people don’t like seeing things they’ve bought destroyed. It can feel like a Twilight Zone episode sometimes where you have to convince people that no, maybe this isn’t a good practice to just destroy things that you pay for when we can prevent it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In some rare cases, there is life after death, game death, at least. But for the majority of online games that shut down without an end of life plan, the best we can do is mourn them. Sometimes that looks like fondly watching old gameplay footage on YouTube. Or it might look like slaying a funeral fit and sharing screenshots with other players on Reddit. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, it’s a memorial segment at the end of your favorite podcast. Let’s take a moment to remember a few of the games that didn’t survive and the games that are on their way out: The Sims Mobile, Anthem, Battleborn, Concord, Babylon’s Fall, Dear Hunter Classic, House of Newerth, Overwatch 1, MapleStory 2, Skyforge, and the one and only Kim Kardashian: Hollywood. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Francesca Fenzi and edited by Chris Egusa. Close All tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Chris Egusa is our senior editor and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Springer is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more. It would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too, or even your enemies or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "alice-bucknell-on-how-virtual-spaces-help-us-cope-with-reality",
"title": "Alice Bucknell on How Virtual Spaces Help Us Cope With Reality",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When wildfire engulfed much of Los Angeles earlier this year, artist and game designer Alice Bucknell found themselves stuck inside, replaying “Firewatch,” a quiet game about exploring the wilderness in anticipation of an impending wildfire. It helped them process emotions that felt too overwhelming in real life. “Firewatch,” and other games like it that focus on exploration rather than fighting or competing, are known as walking simulators. Throughout their career, Alice has used this approach to craft exploratory games that invite players to stretch their imagination and emotional capacity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode, Morgan talks with Alice about how walking simulators and other virtual worlds can reframe our understanding of failure, climate grief, and our connection to one another. From simulating life as a moth to wandering through abandoned metaverses like Second Life, they explore how digital spaces can become sites of mourning, reflection, and hope.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7727580366\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://alicebucknell.com/?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAadPwBfOdoEUHmveOWOdXMqeOP3Ddvc7aVzOWBCFOIpE-3ogrm1q-u-_rZRrMg_aem_3c6B9f5aAuVP86uTOvuZwA\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice Bucknell\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, artist, writer, and game designer\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.hcn.org/issues/57-3/the-video-game-that-makes-the-climate-apocalypse-look-good/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The video game that makes the climate apocalypse look good\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Erin X. Wong, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">High Country News\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.documentjournal.com/2024/05/second-life-virtual-world-gamer-furry-identity-world/\">Second Life’s loyal users embrace its decaying software and no-fun imperfections\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Alice Bucknell, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>Document Journal\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.upress.umn.edu/9781517900250/playing-with-feelings/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Playing with Feelings: Video Games and Affect\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Aubrey Anable, University of Minnesota Press\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the beginning of this year, wildfires ravaged Los Angeles. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I remember like when the fires broke out, like it was a. At least one of them. Um, the end of the fire was like two miles from my place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice Bucknell is an artist, writer, and educator who specializes in video games. Like many LA residents, Alice jumped in to volunteer with mutual aid and cleanup efforts. But before it was safe to leave their home, they were stuck inside … waiting and watching the city burn. So while waiting, they turned to a game they’ve played over and over again: Firewatch. It’s set in the Wyoming wilderness, and, as you might have guessed, deals with wildfires.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even just the kind of color palettes of the game, like felt sickeningly familiar, um, after and during the whole process of the wildfires, like waking up in the daytime and going outside and the sky being like orange, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the game, you play as a park ranger on fire lookout duty. A lot of the game revolves around exploring the wilderness, which is under threat of being wiped out by wildfire. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While the real fire kept them inside, Alice wandered around this game world, racing time to explore before the fire could take it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> for them, it was a meditative experience.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, I cried a lot playing that game, especially the most recent play through. Um, but the game is so beautiful as well because like what games can do is they can toggle across scales in a way that I don’t think any other medium really can. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Firewatch is what’s known as a “walking simulator.” Walking sims are games that revolve around exploring instead of competing or fighting. There’s a lot of focus on character development and maybe the occasional puzzle, instead of flashy combat. In a lot of walking sims, you, the player, have to interact with the world around you to drive the plot forward, like collecting pieces of a scattered puzzle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Walking sims are pretty controversial. They started getting popular around 2016, after Firewatch came out, and for the last decade, more traditional gamers have decried the genre as tedious and lacking actual gameplay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The term walking simulator was used as an insult initially. You know, the, the kind of conventional way we think of video games has largely trended towards, um, high grossing games like war simulators or first person shooters, like these are historically the games that have made the most profit. Walking Sims are really different. Like there’s very little that can be done better, faster, harder than anyone else. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like the game rewards a certain slowing down and paying very close attention to the world around you. Because the nature of their mechanics are so simplistic and paired back, it actually allows them to get into really complex topics like grief or death or dying or mourning or ecological meltdown. Big complex topics can actually be paradoxically easily explored in, in my opinion, through the walking sim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the focus of a lot of Alice’s work: unpacking complicated, emotionally charged topics through game worlds. They don’t exclusively make walking sims, but their work usually involves building a world that’s meant to be explored. Like playing as a pack of wolves, roaming what’s left of urban LA after an ecological disaster. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m really interested in thinking about the game engine as this space for exploring and play testing the limits of human knowledge, [laughs] where different kinds of intelligence or different kinds of relationships can be experimented with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how does exploring these virtual spaces make overwhelming concepts, like climate apocalypse, more approachable? In this episode, we explore the art of exploring, what goes into building these game worlds, what they can offer to players that the real world can’t, and why we keep coming back to them. Alice is going to guide us through it and maybe even make the case for walking sims. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know we start off. Let’s open a new tab, building a game world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice’s background is in anthropology and architecture, and they had always been interested in building virtual worlds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really came to it through an interest in storytelling and like specifically sci-fi and speculative fiction. I wanted to tell stories\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">around politics, society, culture, non-human intelligence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before they got into making games, Alice made animated short films. These films centered on dystopian climate disasters. In one, an arctic bird tells the story of humanity fleeing Earth, while flying over a frigid, flooded wasteland of submerged skyscrapers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Earthseed film]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bird: In 2090, humanity achieved its destiny. I watched from here as the spaceship took off, lighting up the night sky. They were on their way to colonize planet B.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instead of using animation software, Alice built this frozen landscape using a game engine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The game engine is basically just, you know, a fancy way of saying the software that people use to build video games.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many of their films focused on the idea of agency in an uncertain future, whether the main characters were human or animals or plants. And Alice realized that viewer participation was a significant part of understanding these concepts. So they pivoted from using a game engine to create short films — to actually building games themselves. Letting the audience step into that world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Something really magical has to happen where the viewer has to become a player. You’re going from a passive audience to an active audience. Like they have to sort of work together. I mean, especially the games I, I make. They’re mostly two player games or multiplayer games. It felt like it, using the medium of gaming, which requires active participation, just felt like the way to go. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, exploring is usually so secondary in a lot of games. Um, but can you make the case for exploring these worlds, even if it’s not the focus of the game? Like what can this practice of exploration like offer?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I love games that are kind of, yeah, like wandering games or open world games. Like I feel like as a kid, uh, these are always the games that I was most attracted to. Um, I think that they become a bit of like a mirror. Like they kind of maybe reflect back to us some of our own desires or ways of like, moving through the world, like offline or offscreen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think of these spaces as being really generative, like places to almost like, like rehearse or play test are reality as we know it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, how do you build a space that encourages exploration?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think by not telling people the rules,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think, yeah, having things be kind of freaky and open-ended. I do like creating conditions or, or environments where maybe the player thinks they know what’s going on, but then something will just come out of nowhere and like totally trip them up.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I like kind of messing with people’s expectations of like the power or like agency they have over the environment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. There’s something about like encouraging this kind of curiosity we don’t get to really use as adults, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, exactly. I think failing in games is really important and like a lot of people have written a lot of really cool books around that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People like Aubrey Anable have written really nicely about failure recently, thinking about games as a place not just for to experience individual failure, but to experience, like, systems collapsing. Like, what if failure isn’t naturally just this like individual shortcoming, but maybe failure could be extended to like an entire political or social system and maybe how we get to explore different kinds of failure in game worlds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice tackles systemic failure in their game, The Alluvials. It imagines a version of Los Angeles devastated by the climate apocalypse, once again inhabited by the critters native to Southern California. Even P-22 makes an appearance — he was the beloved mountain lion who settled in Griffith Park after somehow crossing two major freeways. P-22 became a symbol of human encroachment on the natural world. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice imagines Los Angeles’ future, without any human perspectives. In The Alluvials, all of the playable characters are non-human. But imagining the world from the perspective of a moth, or the wildfire itself, challenges players to confront difficult feelings of climate anxiety and grief. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think when people play my games oftentimes they’re like, oh, this is so dystopian. Like, this is so melancholic. Like, this feels like you know, end of the world vibes. But I feel like for me, it’s also about trying to find moments of optimism or resilience or beauty or hope or pleasure. Yes, it’s a game about the politics of drought and water scarcity in LA it’s also trying to maybe get us out of this doom spiral of, like, thinking that like a big wildfire is like the apocalypse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, in fact, one of the levels you actually get to play as wildfire. And\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">in that level I was really interested actually in maybe pushing back against this idea that fire is always necessarily a destructive force.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you look at forestry and like ecological studies, like there’s all this evidence proving that actually fire kind of has to happen every now and again because it clears the canopy. So it allows like new, uh, species to grow on the ground. It creates biodiversity. It creates resilience. It removes pests. So there’s all these really positive aspects of fire. And largely like California’s relationship to fire is largely a story of like private property ownership and people not wanting to practice controlled burning so then you end up getting the situation where there are these like mega fires because we haven’t practiced controlled burning. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yeah, I mean, I think the game is trying to get people into a place maybe. Where some of the assumptions they make about the natural world, or how we fear or how we like certain natural events or entities, like maybe make us question why we feel that way. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, another one of the levels of the game of The Alluvials is what I call a pollination simulator. Um, and in this level, which is set in like a dried up near future version of the Hoover Dam, actually get to play either as a Joshua tree or a yucca moth. And these are two species in ecology studies, It’s called extreme symbiosis where basically what happens is these two species have evolved in such a way that they’ve become entirely codependent on each other, like, all of their other pollinators have died out. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I kind of think about the Joshua Tree and yucca moths as these sort of. lovers at the end of the world, you know, like, even if they exist in this incredibly precarious state, like there’s still something so beautiful about the ways that they sort of like support each other and keep each other alive, despite like all the odds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Navigating these virtual landscapes can help us explore deeper relationships. Not just the relationship between two creatures in a desert ecosystem, but complex, messy human relationships too. That’s after the break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back! And we’re opening a new tab, using game worlds to explore emotions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Through their game The Alluvials, Alice flipped the human relationship to the environment on its head and they did it playfully. Imagining these devastating outcomes through playful scenarios, like a yucca moth getting love drunk from pollinating Joshua trees, helps players find hope in an uncertain future. But what about when we go into games without the goal of play? These spaces can be powerful tools to experience and make peace with difficult emotions in our human relationships, too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Video games can be a very productive place for processing grief or processing trauma. There’s a lot of game scholars, uh, people like Aubrey Anable or Bo Ruberg that talk about this notion of difficult gaming games that are kind of enabling us to experience other emotions, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">t\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">han just pleasure or happiness or the delight of sort of beating someone or, or beating a game,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice said that Firewatch, the game they played while waiting out the LA fires, is a perfect example of “difficult gaming.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I mean, Fire Watch for instance, it’s a game about anticipatory grief for the climate. Like, it’s a game where you’re playing as a park ranger and basically decided to leave your wife who has a terminal disease. Uh, but instead of being with her, you’ve decided to go take a job, uh, national forest. so you’re grieving and you’re heartbroken and you’re dealing with yeah, this guilt that you have for abandoning your partner.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then simultaneously you’re dealing with the grief of an entire planet, like a planet scale, grief. And you’re dealing with a kind of feeling that something bad is gonna happen. Kind of the big fire, right, that’s definitely gonna happen at some point, but you don’t know exactly when. 90% of the game is just waiting, like, waiting for that disaster to happen. And I think that in a way, games can do this thing where, yeah, you’re able to sort of toggle between futures pasts and presents.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Games like Firewatch, you’re like waiting for something bad to happen and that thing is kind of always forever on the horizon. And I think that that was a feeling that everyone had in COVID as well, like knowing this thing was really rough, but not knowing the edges of it, like not knowing when it was going to end, the kind of anticipation of like, the world never being the same again, like, when we do get to go back outside.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Games can kind of create that like, it’s almost like a primer or like a way to sort of experience the heaviness and the complexity of those feelings.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What is it about exploring these virtual spaces that allow us to access feelings that we maybe won’t have more trouble processing in the real physical world?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I think about maybe some, some kinds of virtual game space or virtual worlds, like the ones in Roblox or Second Life a sort of, um, non-place. Like, Marc Augé, this French anthropologist had talked about this idea of the non place, and he was kind of referring to it as places like train stations or fast food restaurants or airport terminals, like places that feel kind of dislocated from any physical, like, coordinates.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, he’s really talking about this feeling of like, in betweenness. And I think that, you know, for anyone who’s like, been at an airport and, like, struck up a conversation with a stranger, um, maybe like revealed something, look personal, ’cause it’s like, oh, I’m never gonna see this person again, like whatever. Uh, there’s kind like, I feel like sometimes you also get that in like virtual environments. Like I do feel like these virtual worlds open up i’s a bit like a, a role play where you feel like you can kind of be whoever you wanna be, or maybe you, you can, you can try out like a different personality or like a different kind of intimacy maybe than what you’re used to practicing in your quote unquote, like real life. We already kind of know that, that feeling of, like, an airport bar and like maybe how that would also open you up in a way.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice plays with the concept of non-human entities in their game, Nightcrawlers. They describe it as a pollination simulator. It’s a two-player where one person plays as a flower, and the other plays as a bat. Players have to use echolocation and non-verbal communication to find each other, and when they do, play notes in sync to pollinate. It’s meant to challenge players to deepen their relationships with each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, a game, you know, where you’re playing as a bat and you have to like, use sonar to find flower or if you’re playing as flower and you have to sort of dig under the ground and like fling yourself, like a slingshot across your own root system so you can pop up somewhere else in the world. These are very kind of like psychedelic experiences. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s asking you to kind of take on a form of intelligence that’s just so different from like how you move about the world in your day-to-day life, like, all the behaviors that you just do automatically walking around planet earth. I love the feeling of like playing a, a new game for the first time, uh, where you basically respond into the world and you’re kind of like a baby. Like you just don’t know anything. Like you’re waiting for the lore to load in. You’re waiting for like, you know, someone to tell you the reason that you’re there, someone to tell you how to move around, someone to tell you like what you should be desiring or what you should be working towards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there’s Alice’s game Small Void, a queer dating sim where players work together as matter and antimatter, two halves of the same object. The mechanics of the game are inspired by black hole paradoxes. Alice worked on it during their residency at the European Center for Nuclear Research. The two players have to catch each other, but when they do, they risk opening a black hole and starting the chase from scratch. In a way, it’s also a love story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Anything is possible and like, um, having to kind of relearn your relationship to the world from scratch. It can be frustrating ’cause sometimes you’re just like, tell me what to do, I don’t know what’s going on, like, help. But it can also be ,like, really joyful and like really, I would say like a bit child, like childlike feeling of this, like, sense of wonder of possibility. And I think it’s even more fun when you’re playing the game with someone because you can both like be tripping up and messing up and being confused and disoriented and, um, playing hide and seek together, you know, inside of a black hole.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once the feeling of failure is removed, then it kind of opens us up to like all of these different, uh, possible ways of playing together. and what’s really cool for me as well is thinking about how that openness can be carried into real life, like when you put the controller down. Maybe that makes us a little less rigid in like our day-to-day routines and interactions too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Game worlds provide the space for processing, exploring, and relationship building that we can’t always find in the real world. We see this a lot in the sims. Like, how so many sims players — myself included — explored queerness through in-game relationships before they were ready for real-world ones. Or like during the LA wildfires, when Alice confronted their anxiety and grief by replaying Firewatch when they couldn’t go outside. For many, game worlds are a space for community. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of my favorite examples of that, um was in the pandemic. A lot of people would be meeting up on multiplayer online games, games that nowadays have, like, incredibly sophisticated and beautiful landscapes. Of course, the point of mogs is not to admire the landscape, it’s to kind of engage with other players and maybe collaborate or fight each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But in the pandemic, when we were all so nature starved and locked at home, uh, people were really gravitating towards multiplayer online games, not just as a point of social communication but actually as a place to even like, appreciate simulated nature together. So it was not uncommon for people to basically go onto Halo or other games and like basically just use the sort of structure of the game engine itself as a bit of like a national park or a nature watch and like meet up with their friends and go on these long walks together into the sunset.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But, just like spaces in the real world, sometimes a once-bustling locale can fizzle out. Its popularity dwindles and it starts feeling.. abandoned. What happens to these virtual worlds when players stop visiting? What’s the appeal of these multiplayer spaces, if the community has moved on? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Time for a new tab, Is Second Life a dead game?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Second Life launched in 2003 as an expansive online world where you could be anyone, and do anything. It was the metaverse before all the tech nerds were obsessed with the metaverse. To this day, you can meet other players, fall in love, get married, buy property, get a job, adopt another player, be adopted by other players, pick up a new hobby … all of course, in game, and through a series of micro-transactions that require real money. You can literally live a second life online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The world is huge but now, it’s empty. Second Life’s active user base peaked in 2010. But there are still players who are committed to showing up. Alice spent three weeks in the game last year while writing an anthropological report of Second Life for Document Journal. What they found was a digitally crumbling, desolate world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was playing around in Second Life. I think I felt like quite frustrated and I also felt quite alone. Um, because it is like, you get the feeling that it’s just this like gigantic,constellation of thousands of different worlds that are all custom made by someone real. These nightclubs or islands or places you can go and like maybe meet, meet people and talk to, talk to people, but then you, you, you portal into these worlds and there’s just no one there. It’s quite like, I would say almost like melancholic, um, I would say like the feeling of, of being inside of this world that once had such a kind of following I guess, and such a kind of, uh, busy crowd. Um, and now it’s sort of been abandoned.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe it’s not so far from like the non place I was talking about earlier or the, the feeling of being in transit, um, because it feels a bit like you’re in this world that has been like forsaken. Like, it feels a bit like a archeological exercise. Like you’re trying to sort of like, uncover the kind of history of this place and try to find little clues in the landscape.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When I think about online games, I assume that most people keep going back to them for the relationships they have with other players. But in games like Second Life, there’s like no one there. And you wrote about running into like one solitary person in this pretty much abandoned, like wasteland of a game. Why do you think people keep coming back to these virtual world if, even if there’s no one else there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, it’s by and large a wasteland. Yes, it’s like been forsaken, left for dead. Um, but I also think that because the odds of finding someone also exploring this world are so low, um, there is this feeling of like, magic when it does happen, that you do meet someone. And also, like, for some of these users, they really like the idea that they’re able to kind of hang out in this, like, otherwise, like, abandoned space. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think when a lot of people talk about the reason they love games is usually like the storyline, or like the relationships they build with other players, the characters. But do you have any thoughts on, like, the relationships we build to the game worlds themselves and like these virtual spaces?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think people get really attached. I think that’s not something that studios think about a lot either. I guess like, uh, it was one of the expansions of World of Warcraft, in which, um, they scrubbed like a lot of the, uh, areas of the world. Like, they just, they just cut ’em out basically to create more space, I guess, for better, like more optimized level design. Um, and there was this like Reddit forum where everyone was like, mourning. I mean, this is before the upgrade even happened, um, so this is before the levels had, had been erased for good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, but people were like, already, sort of, like, mourning and complaining that like these levels are gonna disappear. And like, people were like, ‘okay, I’m gonna go archive this patch.’ Like, ‘if you go archive that patch, just like take video walkthroughs, like, take, just like record your game, like record your screen. Like we need to like assemble an archive.’\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so I feel like, you know, everyone has different reasons for forming attachments to, to anything really. Um, but I do think that these virtual worlds can be almost like time capsules or like diaries. They do kind of reflect back to us like a certain period of our lives, maybe, like a certain moment, um, that we remember or a certain feeling we remember ourselves having in a certain world. And like, when people were mourning the future loss of their favorite World of Warcraft worlds, like, people were, like, ‘this level like reminded me of, like, when I had, like, just had my first, like girlfriend or something.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, I don’t know, like it is like where they were in their like particular point in their life, like when they first encountered that world. I mean this is just such a human factor. We earmark and we tag and we superimpose like our own narratives onto place. And for me, it’s not a surprise that people would have that similar attachment to virtual worlds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happens when we lose access to these virtual worlds that we come to love? Sometimes, like in the case of Second Life, these spaces are abandoned by their former inhabitants, who’ve moved on to newer and less glitchy metaverses. But that’s not the only way to think about game death. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some virtual worlds blink out of existence before they have time to be abandoned, when game companies decide to pull the plug. Grieving these games that are suddenly taken offline can be a complicated process. And sometimes, it’s about grieving past lives of a game. Like in the World of Warcraft example Alice mentioned, when players restored a version that still included areas that had been wiped in the update. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, it can be really challenging. It can be really tough. In that specific anecdote, I was curious so I actually, I started, uh, combing through the Reddit thread and like was going to some of the YouTube links and, um, reading some of like the subreddit like discourse. And people were like, you know, ‘thank you so much for preserving this. like, I felt sick to my stomach, like when I woke up with the update and like, I realized my, like, favorite world was gone. I was like having a panic attack. I was crying like, this has like, brought me back, you know, like, this has, like saved me.’\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yeah, this kind of attachment can get really intense for a lot of people. Um, but I think that one of the cool things about that anecdote is like, the element of like collectivity, like, that goes into building these worlds and also maintaining them. But also a sort of, um, how do you say, almost like a death doula for virtual worlds, like, when they do come offline. It’s like, what are the, what’s the kind of rituals or forms of care we need to create together in order to, like, make sure that\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the memory of this world is defended and like, maintained and held. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know. I was really moved by the ways in which people were protecting the memories of these worlds for strangers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll explore this idea of game “death” more next week — and hear how a few online game communities have reacted to the loss of their virtual worlds. Some gamers have started a movement, calling on publishers to stop killing games.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But that’s a deep dive for next time. For now, we’re closing all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>This episode was produced by Francesca Fenzi and Chris Egusa, who is also our Senior Editor. It was edited by Chris Hambrick.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Theme song and credits music by Chris Egusa, with additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gatoron red switches.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends to, or even your enemies or frenemies.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you really like close all tabs and want to support public media, go to \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">donate.KQED.org/podcasts\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Alice Bucknell on How Virtual Spaces Help Us Cope With Reality | KQED",
"description": "When wildfire engulfed much of Los Angeles earlier this year, artist and game designer Alice Bucknell found themselves stuck inside, replaying “Firewatch,” a quiet game about exploring the wilderness in anticipation of an impending wildfire. It helped them process emotions that felt too overwhelming in real life. “Firewatch,” and other games like it that focus on exploration rather than fighting or competing, are known as walking simulators. Throughout their career, Alice has used this approach to craft exploratory games that invite players to stretch their imagination and emotional capacity.In this episode, Morgan talks with Alice about how walking simulators and other virtual worlds can reframe our understanding of failure, climate grief, and our connection to one another. From simulating life as a moth to wandering through abandoned metaverses like Second Life, they explore how digital spaces can become sites of mourning, reflection, and hope.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When wildfire engulfed much of Los Angeles earlier this year, artist and game designer Alice Bucknell found themselves stuck inside, replaying “Firewatch,” a quiet game about exploring the wilderness in anticipation of an impending wildfire. It helped them process emotions that felt too overwhelming in real life. “Firewatch,” and other games like it that focus on exploration rather than fighting or competing, are known as walking simulators. Throughout their career, Alice has used this approach to craft exploratory games that invite players to stretch their imagination and emotional capacity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode, Morgan talks with Alice about how walking simulators and other virtual worlds can reframe our understanding of failure, climate grief, and our connection to one another. From simulating life as a moth to wandering through abandoned metaverses like Second Life, they explore how digital spaces can become sites of mourning, reflection, and hope.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7727580366\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://alicebucknell.com/?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAadPwBfOdoEUHmveOWOdXMqeOP3Ddvc7aVzOWBCFOIpE-3ogrm1q-u-_rZRrMg_aem_3c6B9f5aAuVP86uTOvuZwA\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice Bucknell\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, artist, writer, and game designer\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.hcn.org/issues/57-3/the-video-game-that-makes-the-climate-apocalypse-look-good/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The video game that makes the climate apocalypse look good\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Erin X. Wong, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">High Country News\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.documentjournal.com/2024/05/second-life-virtual-world-gamer-furry-identity-world/\">Second Life’s loyal users embrace its decaying software and no-fun imperfections\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Alice Bucknell, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>Document Journal\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.upress.umn.edu/9781517900250/playing-with-feelings/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Playing with Feelings: Video Games and Affect\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Aubrey Anable, University of Minnesota Press\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the beginning of this year, wildfires ravaged Los Angeles. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I remember like when the fires broke out, like it was a. At least one of them. Um, the end of the fire was like two miles from my place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice Bucknell is an artist, writer, and educator who specializes in video games. Like many LA residents, Alice jumped in to volunteer with mutual aid and cleanup efforts. But before it was safe to leave their home, they were stuck inside … waiting and watching the city burn. So while waiting, they turned to a game they’ve played over and over again: Firewatch. It’s set in the Wyoming wilderness, and, as you might have guessed, deals with wildfires.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even just the kind of color palettes of the game, like felt sickeningly familiar, um, after and during the whole process of the wildfires, like waking up in the daytime and going outside and the sky being like orange, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the game, you play as a park ranger on fire lookout duty. A lot of the game revolves around exploring the wilderness, which is under threat of being wiped out by wildfire. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While the real fire kept them inside, Alice wandered around this game world, racing time to explore before the fire could take it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> for them, it was a meditative experience.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, I cried a lot playing that game, especially the most recent play through. Um, but the game is so beautiful as well because like what games can do is they can toggle across scales in a way that I don’t think any other medium really can. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Firewatch is what’s known as a “walking simulator.” Walking sims are games that revolve around exploring instead of competing or fighting. There’s a lot of focus on character development and maybe the occasional puzzle, instead of flashy combat. In a lot of walking sims, you, the player, have to interact with the world around you to drive the plot forward, like collecting pieces of a scattered puzzle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Walking sims are pretty controversial. They started getting popular around 2016, after Firewatch came out, and for the last decade, more traditional gamers have decried the genre as tedious and lacking actual gameplay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The term walking simulator was used as an insult initially. You know, the, the kind of conventional way we think of video games has largely trended towards, um, high grossing games like war simulators or first person shooters, like these are historically the games that have made the most profit. Walking Sims are really different. Like there’s very little that can be done better, faster, harder than anyone else. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like the game rewards a certain slowing down and paying very close attention to the world around you. Because the nature of their mechanics are so simplistic and paired back, it actually allows them to get into really complex topics like grief or death or dying or mourning or ecological meltdown. Big complex topics can actually be paradoxically easily explored in, in my opinion, through the walking sim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the focus of a lot of Alice’s work: unpacking complicated, emotionally charged topics through game worlds. They don’t exclusively make walking sims, but their work usually involves building a world that’s meant to be explored. Like playing as a pack of wolves, roaming what’s left of urban LA after an ecological disaster. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m really interested in thinking about the game engine as this space for exploring and play testing the limits of human knowledge, [laughs] where different kinds of intelligence or different kinds of relationships can be experimented with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how does exploring these virtual spaces make overwhelming concepts, like climate apocalypse, more approachable? In this episode, we explore the art of exploring, what goes into building these game worlds, what they can offer to players that the real world can’t, and why we keep coming back to them. Alice is going to guide us through it and maybe even make the case for walking sims. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know we start off. Let’s open a new tab, building a game world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice’s background is in anthropology and architecture, and they had always been interested in building virtual worlds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really came to it through an interest in storytelling and like specifically sci-fi and speculative fiction. I wanted to tell stories\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">around politics, society, culture, non-human intelligence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before they got into making games, Alice made animated short films. These films centered on dystopian climate disasters. In one, an arctic bird tells the story of humanity fleeing Earth, while flying over a frigid, flooded wasteland of submerged skyscrapers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Earthseed film]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bird: In 2090, humanity achieved its destiny. I watched from here as the spaceship took off, lighting up the night sky. They were on their way to colonize planet B.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instead of using animation software, Alice built this frozen landscape using a game engine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The game engine is basically just, you know, a fancy way of saying the software that people use to build video games.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many of their films focused on the idea of agency in an uncertain future, whether the main characters were human or animals or plants. And Alice realized that viewer participation was a significant part of understanding these concepts. So they pivoted from using a game engine to create short films — to actually building games themselves. Letting the audience step into that world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Something really magical has to happen where the viewer has to become a player. You’re going from a passive audience to an active audience. Like they have to sort of work together. I mean, especially the games I, I make. They’re mostly two player games or multiplayer games. It felt like it, using the medium of gaming, which requires active participation, just felt like the way to go. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, exploring is usually so secondary in a lot of games. Um, but can you make the case for exploring these worlds, even if it’s not the focus of the game? Like what can this practice of exploration like offer?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I love games that are kind of, yeah, like wandering games or open world games. Like I feel like as a kid, uh, these are always the games that I was most attracted to. Um, I think that they become a bit of like a mirror. Like they kind of maybe reflect back to us some of our own desires or ways of like, moving through the world, like offline or offscreen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think of these spaces as being really generative, like places to almost like, like rehearse or play test are reality as we know it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, how do you build a space that encourages exploration?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think by not telling people the rules,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think, yeah, having things be kind of freaky and open-ended. I do like creating conditions or, or environments where maybe the player thinks they know what’s going on, but then something will just come out of nowhere and like totally trip them up.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I like kind of messing with people’s expectations of like the power or like agency they have over the environment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. There’s something about like encouraging this kind of curiosity we don’t get to really use as adults, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, exactly. I think failing in games is really important and like a lot of people have written a lot of really cool books around that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People like Aubrey Anable have written really nicely about failure recently, thinking about games as a place not just for to experience individual failure, but to experience, like, systems collapsing. Like, what if failure isn’t naturally just this like individual shortcoming, but maybe failure could be extended to like an entire political or social system and maybe how we get to explore different kinds of failure in game worlds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice tackles systemic failure in their game, The Alluvials. It imagines a version of Los Angeles devastated by the climate apocalypse, once again inhabited by the critters native to Southern California. Even P-22 makes an appearance — he was the beloved mountain lion who settled in Griffith Park after somehow crossing two major freeways. P-22 became a symbol of human encroachment on the natural world. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice imagines Los Angeles’ future, without any human perspectives. In The Alluvials, all of the playable characters are non-human. But imagining the world from the perspective of a moth, or the wildfire itself, challenges players to confront difficult feelings of climate anxiety and grief. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think when people play my games oftentimes they’re like, oh, this is so dystopian. Like, this is so melancholic. Like, this feels like you know, end of the world vibes. But I feel like for me, it’s also about trying to find moments of optimism or resilience or beauty or hope or pleasure. Yes, it’s a game about the politics of drought and water scarcity in LA it’s also trying to maybe get us out of this doom spiral of, like, thinking that like a big wildfire is like the apocalypse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, in fact, one of the levels you actually get to play as wildfire. And\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">in that level I was really interested actually in maybe pushing back against this idea that fire is always necessarily a destructive force.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you look at forestry and like ecological studies, like there’s all this evidence proving that actually fire kind of has to happen every now and again because it clears the canopy. So it allows like new, uh, species to grow on the ground. It creates biodiversity. It creates resilience. It removes pests. So there’s all these really positive aspects of fire. And largely like California’s relationship to fire is largely a story of like private property ownership and people not wanting to practice controlled burning so then you end up getting the situation where there are these like mega fires because we haven’t practiced controlled burning. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yeah, I mean, I think the game is trying to get people into a place maybe. Where some of the assumptions they make about the natural world, or how we fear or how we like certain natural events or entities, like maybe make us question why we feel that way. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, another one of the levels of the game of The Alluvials is what I call a pollination simulator. Um, and in this level, which is set in like a dried up near future version of the Hoover Dam, actually get to play either as a Joshua tree or a yucca moth. And these are two species in ecology studies, It’s called extreme symbiosis where basically what happens is these two species have evolved in such a way that they’ve become entirely codependent on each other, like, all of their other pollinators have died out. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I kind of think about the Joshua Tree and yucca moths as these sort of. lovers at the end of the world, you know, like, even if they exist in this incredibly precarious state, like there’s still something so beautiful about the ways that they sort of like support each other and keep each other alive, despite like all the odds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Navigating these virtual landscapes can help us explore deeper relationships. Not just the relationship between two creatures in a desert ecosystem, but complex, messy human relationships too. That’s after the break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back! And we’re opening a new tab, using game worlds to explore emotions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Through their game The Alluvials, Alice flipped the human relationship to the environment on its head and they did it playfully. Imagining these devastating outcomes through playful scenarios, like a yucca moth getting love drunk from pollinating Joshua trees, helps players find hope in an uncertain future. But what about when we go into games without the goal of play? These spaces can be powerful tools to experience and make peace with difficult emotions in our human relationships, too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Video games can be a very productive place for processing grief or processing trauma. There’s a lot of game scholars, uh, people like Aubrey Anable or Bo Ruberg that talk about this notion of difficult gaming games that are kind of enabling us to experience other emotions, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">t\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">han just pleasure or happiness or the delight of sort of beating someone or, or beating a game,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice said that Firewatch, the game they played while waiting out the LA fires, is a perfect example of “difficult gaming.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I mean, Fire Watch for instance, it’s a game about anticipatory grief for the climate. Like, it’s a game where you’re playing as a park ranger and basically decided to leave your wife who has a terminal disease. Uh, but instead of being with her, you’ve decided to go take a job, uh, national forest. so you’re grieving and you’re heartbroken and you’re dealing with yeah, this guilt that you have for abandoning your partner.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then simultaneously you’re dealing with the grief of an entire planet, like a planet scale, grief. And you’re dealing with a kind of feeling that something bad is gonna happen. Kind of the big fire, right, that’s definitely gonna happen at some point, but you don’t know exactly when. 90% of the game is just waiting, like, waiting for that disaster to happen. And I think that in a way, games can do this thing where, yeah, you’re able to sort of toggle between futures pasts and presents.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Games like Firewatch, you’re like waiting for something bad to happen and that thing is kind of always forever on the horizon. And I think that that was a feeling that everyone had in COVID as well, like knowing this thing was really rough, but not knowing the edges of it, like not knowing when it was going to end, the kind of anticipation of like, the world never being the same again, like, when we do get to go back outside.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Games can kind of create that like, it’s almost like a primer or like a way to sort of experience the heaviness and the complexity of those feelings.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What is it about exploring these virtual spaces that allow us to access feelings that we maybe won’t have more trouble processing in the real physical world?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I think about maybe some, some kinds of virtual game space or virtual worlds, like the ones in Roblox or Second Life a sort of, um, non-place. Like, Marc Augé, this French anthropologist had talked about this idea of the non place, and he was kind of referring to it as places like train stations or fast food restaurants or airport terminals, like places that feel kind of dislocated from any physical, like, coordinates.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, he’s really talking about this feeling of like, in betweenness. And I think that, you know, for anyone who’s like, been at an airport and, like, struck up a conversation with a stranger, um, maybe like revealed something, look personal, ’cause it’s like, oh, I’m never gonna see this person again, like whatever. Uh, there’s kind like, I feel like sometimes you also get that in like virtual environments. Like I do feel like these virtual worlds open up i’s a bit like a, a role play where you feel like you can kind of be whoever you wanna be, or maybe you, you can, you can try out like a different personality or like a different kind of intimacy maybe than what you’re used to practicing in your quote unquote, like real life. We already kind of know that, that feeling of, like, an airport bar and like maybe how that would also open you up in a way.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alice plays with the concept of non-human entities in their game, Nightcrawlers. They describe it as a pollination simulator. It’s a two-player where one person plays as a flower, and the other plays as a bat. Players have to use echolocation and non-verbal communication to find each other, and when they do, play notes in sync to pollinate. It’s meant to challenge players to deepen their relationships with each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, a game, you know, where you’re playing as a bat and you have to like, use sonar to find flower or if you’re playing as flower and you have to sort of dig under the ground and like fling yourself, like a slingshot across your own root system so you can pop up somewhere else in the world. These are very kind of like psychedelic experiences. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s asking you to kind of take on a form of intelligence that’s just so different from like how you move about the world in your day-to-day life, like, all the behaviors that you just do automatically walking around planet earth. I love the feeling of like playing a, a new game for the first time, uh, where you basically respond into the world and you’re kind of like a baby. Like you just don’t know anything. Like you’re waiting for the lore to load in. You’re waiting for like, you know, someone to tell you the reason that you’re there, someone to tell you how to move around, someone to tell you like what you should be desiring or what you should be working towards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there’s Alice’s game Small Void, a queer dating sim where players work together as matter and antimatter, two halves of the same object. The mechanics of the game are inspired by black hole paradoxes. Alice worked on it during their residency at the European Center for Nuclear Research. The two players have to catch each other, but when they do, they risk opening a black hole and starting the chase from scratch. In a way, it’s also a love story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Anything is possible and like, um, having to kind of relearn your relationship to the world from scratch. It can be frustrating ’cause sometimes you’re just like, tell me what to do, I don’t know what’s going on, like, help. But it can also be ,like, really joyful and like really, I would say like a bit child, like childlike feeling of this, like, sense of wonder of possibility. And I think it’s even more fun when you’re playing the game with someone because you can both like be tripping up and messing up and being confused and disoriented and, um, playing hide and seek together, you know, inside of a black hole.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once the feeling of failure is removed, then it kind of opens us up to like all of these different, uh, possible ways of playing together. and what’s really cool for me as well is thinking about how that openness can be carried into real life, like when you put the controller down. Maybe that makes us a little less rigid in like our day-to-day routines and interactions too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Game worlds provide the space for processing, exploring, and relationship building that we can’t always find in the real world. We see this a lot in the sims. Like, how so many sims players — myself included — explored queerness through in-game relationships before they were ready for real-world ones. Or like during the LA wildfires, when Alice confronted their anxiety and grief by replaying Firewatch when they couldn’t go outside. For many, game worlds are a space for community. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of my favorite examples of that, um was in the pandemic. A lot of people would be meeting up on multiplayer online games, games that nowadays have, like, incredibly sophisticated and beautiful landscapes. Of course, the point of mogs is not to admire the landscape, it’s to kind of engage with other players and maybe collaborate or fight each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But in the pandemic, when we were all so nature starved and locked at home, uh, people were really gravitating towards multiplayer online games, not just as a point of social communication but actually as a place to even like, appreciate simulated nature together. So it was not uncommon for people to basically go onto Halo or other games and like basically just use the sort of structure of the game engine itself as a bit of like a national park or a nature watch and like meet up with their friends and go on these long walks together into the sunset.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But, just like spaces in the real world, sometimes a once-bustling locale can fizzle out. Its popularity dwindles and it starts feeling.. abandoned. What happens to these virtual worlds when players stop visiting? What’s the appeal of these multiplayer spaces, if the community has moved on? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Time for a new tab, Is Second Life a dead game?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Second Life launched in 2003 as an expansive online world where you could be anyone, and do anything. It was the metaverse before all the tech nerds were obsessed with the metaverse. To this day, you can meet other players, fall in love, get married, buy property, get a job, adopt another player, be adopted by other players, pick up a new hobby … all of course, in game, and through a series of micro-transactions that require real money. You can literally live a second life online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The world is huge but now, it’s empty. Second Life’s active user base peaked in 2010. But there are still players who are committed to showing up. Alice spent three weeks in the game last year while writing an anthropological report of Second Life for Document Journal. What they found was a digitally crumbling, desolate world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was playing around in Second Life. I think I felt like quite frustrated and I also felt quite alone. Um, because it is like, you get the feeling that it’s just this like gigantic,constellation of thousands of different worlds that are all custom made by someone real. These nightclubs or islands or places you can go and like maybe meet, meet people and talk to, talk to people, but then you, you, you portal into these worlds and there’s just no one there. It’s quite like, I would say almost like melancholic, um, I would say like the feeling of, of being inside of this world that once had such a kind of following I guess, and such a kind of, uh, busy crowd. Um, and now it’s sort of been abandoned.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe it’s not so far from like the non place I was talking about earlier or the, the feeling of being in transit, um, because it feels a bit like you’re in this world that has been like forsaken. Like, it feels a bit like a archeological exercise. Like you’re trying to sort of like, uncover the kind of history of this place and try to find little clues in the landscape.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When I think about online games, I assume that most people keep going back to them for the relationships they have with other players. But in games like Second Life, there’s like no one there. And you wrote about running into like one solitary person in this pretty much abandoned, like wasteland of a game. Why do you think people keep coming back to these virtual world if, even if there’s no one else there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, it’s by and large a wasteland. Yes, it’s like been forsaken, left for dead. Um, but I also think that because the odds of finding someone also exploring this world are so low, um, there is this feeling of like, magic when it does happen, that you do meet someone. And also, like, for some of these users, they really like the idea that they’re able to kind of hang out in this, like, otherwise, like, abandoned space. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think when a lot of people talk about the reason they love games is usually like the storyline, or like the relationships they build with other players, the characters. But do you have any thoughts on, like, the relationships we build to the game worlds themselves and like these virtual spaces?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think people get really attached. I think that’s not something that studios think about a lot either. I guess like, uh, it was one of the expansions of World of Warcraft, in which, um, they scrubbed like a lot of the, uh, areas of the world. Like, they just, they just cut ’em out basically to create more space, I guess, for better, like more optimized level design. Um, and there was this like Reddit forum where everyone was like, mourning. I mean, this is before the upgrade even happened, um, so this is before the levels had, had been erased for good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, but people were like, already, sort of, like, mourning and complaining that like these levels are gonna disappear. And like, people were like, ‘okay, I’m gonna go archive this patch.’ Like, ‘if you go archive that patch, just like take video walkthroughs, like, take, just like record your game, like record your screen. Like we need to like assemble an archive.’\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so I feel like, you know, everyone has different reasons for forming attachments to, to anything really. Um, but I do think that these virtual worlds can be almost like time capsules or like diaries. They do kind of reflect back to us like a certain period of our lives, maybe, like a certain moment, um, that we remember or a certain feeling we remember ourselves having in a certain world. And like, when people were mourning the future loss of their favorite World of Warcraft worlds, like, people were, like, ‘this level like reminded me of, like, when I had, like, just had my first, like girlfriend or something.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, I don’t know, like it is like where they were in their like particular point in their life, like when they first encountered that world. I mean this is just such a human factor. We earmark and we tag and we superimpose like our own narratives onto place. And for me, it’s not a surprise that people would have that similar attachment to virtual worlds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happens when we lose access to these virtual worlds that we come to love? Sometimes, like in the case of Second Life, these spaces are abandoned by their former inhabitants, who’ve moved on to newer and less glitchy metaverses. But that’s not the only way to think about game death. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some virtual worlds blink out of existence before they have time to be abandoned, when game companies decide to pull the plug. Grieving these games that are suddenly taken offline can be a complicated process. And sometimes, it’s about grieving past lives of a game. Like in the World of Warcraft example Alice mentioned, when players restored a version that still included areas that had been wiped in the update. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Bucknell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, it can be really challenging. It can be really tough. In that specific anecdote, I was curious so I actually, I started, uh, combing through the Reddit thread and like was going to some of the YouTube links and, um, reading some of like the subreddit like discourse. And people were like, you know, ‘thank you so much for preserving this. like, I felt sick to my stomach, like when I woke up with the update and like, I realized my, like, favorite world was gone. I was like having a panic attack. I was crying like, this has like, brought me back, you know, like, this has, like saved me.’\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yeah, this kind of attachment can get really intense for a lot of people. Um, but I think that one of the cool things about that anecdote is like, the element of like collectivity, like, that goes into building these worlds and also maintaining them. But also a sort of, um, how do you say, almost like a death doula for virtual worlds, like, when they do come offline. It’s like, what are the, what’s the kind of rituals or forms of care we need to create together in order to, like, make sure that\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the memory of this world is defended and like, maintained and held. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know. I was really moved by the ways in which people were protecting the memories of these worlds for strangers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll explore this idea of game “death” more next week — and hear how a few online game communities have reacted to the loss of their virtual worlds. Some gamers have started a movement, calling on publishers to stop killing games.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But that’s a deep dive for next time. For now, we’re closing all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>This episode was produced by Francesca Fenzi and Chris Egusa, who is also our Senior Editor. It was edited by Chris Hambrick.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Theme song and credits music by Chris Egusa, with additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gatoron red switches.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends to, or even your enemies or frenemies.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you really like close all tabs and want to support public media, go to \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">donate.KQED.org/podcasts\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "a-political-reckoning-for-twitch",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TwitchCon, Twitch’s annual convention in San Diego for all things streaming and gaming, is facing heightened scrutiny after streamer Emiru was assaulted there during a meet-and-greet. The incident occurred after a series of streamers pulled out of the event over safety concerns and the growing specter of political violence. All of this has highlighted questions about the role of political commentary on Twitch — a genre that’s exploded in the last few years, transforming the platform into much more than a gaming site. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Morgan is joined by author and reporter Nathan Grayson and political streamer Denims to explore Twitch’s rise as a hub for political speech, the company’s inconsistent handling of backlash against political creators, and whether any real alternatives exist for this new wave of commentators. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6693258081\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://aftermath.site/author/nathan-grayson\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nathan Grayson\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, co-founder and reporter at Aftermath \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.twitch.tv/denims\">Denims,\u003c/a> political streamer on Twitch\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://aftermath.site/twitch-twitchcon-2025-security-emiru-assault-irl-streamers\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Beefed Up TwitchCon Security Couldn’t Stop The Internet’s Issues From Spilling Over Into Real Life\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nathan Grayson, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aftermath\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.usermag.co/p/can-twitch-survive-ceo-dan-clancy-at-twitchcon-interview\">Can Twitch Survive? CEO Dan Clancy at Twitchcon\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Taylor Lorenz\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003ci>User Mag\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Stream-Big/Nathan-Grayson/9781982156763\">Stream Big: The Triumphs and Turmoils of Twitch and the Stars Behind the Screen\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nathan Grayson\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://mashable.com/article/twitchcon-unsafe-for-streamers\">Why is TwitchCon so uniquely unsafe for streamers?\u003c/a> — Christianna Silva, \u003ci>Mashable\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>bbno$ speaking to a crowd: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Get a hell yeah!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Crowd: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">hell yeah!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>bbno$:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Twitchcon!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Crowd: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Twitchcon!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>bbno$: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right click! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Two weekends ago, the live streaming platform Twitch held its 10th annual TwitchCon. That’s Twitch’s annual convention in San Diego for all things streaming and gaming. And the tape you just heard was the rapper turned cosplayer, bbno$, performing at one of the creator after parties. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>bbno$: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">F*ck yeah, TwitchCon! \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I went into this weekend’s planning to cover Twitch’s evolution as an influential platform for political speech. These creators have massive audiences and have the potential to educate and inspire entire generations into civic engagement. And my quest to talk to them brought me here… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>bbno$: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right click! \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TwitchCon has had its controversies in the past, from the infamous foam pit that severely injured multiple attendees to streamers from the rival platform Kick sneaking in to harass Twitch creators. But this time, the event was held in the shadow of this country’s mounting political violence, most notably the recent assassination of right-wing political commentator Charlie Kirk. In the weeks leading up to the convention, high-profile streamers like Hasan Piker dropped out of the event citing concern over public safety and political violence. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Hasan Piker speaking during a livestream: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m worried about the safety of others. I don’t want to put them in the f*cking crosshairs if some psycho freak decides like, I’m gonna go there. I’m very publicly not going to TwitchCon for that reason. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And concerns about safety boiled over completely when, on the first day of the event, a streamer named Emiru was assaulted during her Twitch-organized meet and greet. A man was able to cross multiple barriers through other creators’ meet and greet lines before he grabbed Emiru and tried to forcibly kiss her. In a statement, Twitch said that, “Law enforcement and event security were on site and responded to the incident.” But Emiru said that event staff didn’t step in to stop him. It was her own private security that intervened. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emiru speaking to an audience : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, if you watch the clip, the security guard who pushes the guy away is my security, the woman who pulls me to the back, my manager. If you’re a small streamer and you don’t have those resources or someone in your line is not filming, what the f*ck do you do? \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Twitch did significantly beef up security before this year’s event. We’re talking more surveillance, more bodyguards, the whole nine yards. Still, the assault haunted TwitchCon all weekend. Other streamers, the overwhelming majority of whom were women, posted that they were nervous about going to the convention center. Some hired their own private security last minute, or even canceled their meet and greets. Several posted about getting harassed by fans and other male streamers during the event. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the last day of the convention, Twitch hosted an open Q&A for streamers and fans to talk directly to the company’s CEO, Dan Clancy. Finally, in the middle of the panel, an attendee stepped up to the mic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Q&A Attendee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How’s it going? I’ve been coming to TwitchCon since 2016. I love Twitch’s platform. I think the elephant in the room right now is just like there’s a lot of big creators that don’t necessarily feel that this is the safest space in person or necessarily online and I was just curious as to the additional steps that Twitch is going to take to make that, to change that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Clancy during Q&A: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Livestreaming offers some advantages in terms of the ability to control your community, but it’s still this issue that people of all sizes, it’s not just, you know, women of course have a challenge, but also underrepresented groups often have this problem of harassment online. And it’s something we care deeply about and we’re always looking for how we continue to invest to help protect creators as they go on their journey. So thanks for the question. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This weekend was a reckoning for Twitch. The streaming community has been embroiled in debate over the culture of misogyny on the platform and the parasocial relationships that endanger creators. And it highlighted questions about the role of political commentary in streaming, a genre of content that’s exploded in the last few years, establishing Twitch as more than a gaming site. Now it’s a legitimate platform for political discourse and not everyone is happy about that. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re diving into Twitch, political speech online, and whether creators have anywhere else to go if they can’t talk about it on Twitch. This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many people associate political commentary with traditional formats, like broadcast talk shows and op-eds, that kind of thing. But over the last few election cycles, an alternative information ecosystem has been growing across social media, including Twitch. But throughout its growth, Twitch hasn’t figured out how to handle this kind of content, from moderation to responding to public backlash. And as commentary streamers gain more influence Twitch has faced increasing scrutiny from both Democratic and Republican lawmakers who aren’t thrilled about this growing sphere of leftist discussion. Some are pushing Twitch to crack down on political speech and after the Charlie Kirk shooting, that pressure has been kicked into overdrive. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To understand how we got here, let’s go back to the very beginning by opening a new tab. When did Twitch get so political? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To get into this, let’s talk to my friend Nathan Grayson, co-founder and reporter at Aftermath. It’s a worker-owned publication reporting on video games. He’s also the author of Stream Big, which explains the history of Twitch by profiling nine different streamers. Twitch has changed and morphed many times since it spun off from the live streaming site Justin.tv in 2011. And for much of that time, Twitch had a singular focus, gaming.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For a long time in Twitch’s history, you were required to be playing a video game while streaming, like that was a rule and people tried to get around it and all these like really funny ways. Like there was an era where somebody would like invert kind of the size of their camera views. So instead of the game being really big and them being small, they’d be huge and there’d be a tiny little like bit of gameplay in the corner. That wasn’t technically allowed so people would get in trouble for it. But yeah, so it was that kind of a thing. And so it was pretty hard, you know, to like be a political commentator when you also had to be like, keeping up with a League of Legends match and Twitch finally said like, ‘Hey, you know, you guys clearly want to just talk to your audiences. We hear you, we’re going to let you.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2017, Twitch launched two new categories, Just Chatting and IRL, short for in real life. They paved the way for a new type of streamer, a chronically online talk show host. Hasan Piker, who was then a producer for the Young Turks, started streaming on Twitch the next year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hasan Piker speaking to a livestream audience: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s going on, everybody? I’m going to get really quickly into it. OK, today we have an awesome episode… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He started getting big around 2019, you know, it was like, he started that year with like a hundred thousand followers and ended it with like close to half a million. And so 2020, I think definitely, especially like, allowed us all to take off because we were all stuck inside as a result of the pandemic and there’s an election. The internet, when it comes to politics, especially, and then these like major events in the political landscape, like elections, it’s just chaos. There’s so much happening. And the role that somebody like Hasan serves is that they curate it for you, you know? And they do it in a language that you, as somebody who regularly like browses the internet, can understand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hasan Piker speaking to a livestream audience: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So let me like walk you through it. The reason why you push for a shutdown in this situation is to really highlight what you are seeking to protect, okay? And what you’re seeking to protect in this circumstance is $800 billion of cuts for Medicaid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is it about this particular moment in internet history that made political streams so popular on Twitch, beyond just Hassan? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, one of the things is a pandemic. You cannot understate the importance of that moment in that I would say that is when everybody’s world inverted. Before that, real life was the main thing and the internet was supplementary to it. And then with everybody stuck inside because of the pandemic, suddenly the internet became the real thing and real life with supplementary to it. And we never really went back. And as a result, I mean like, you know, the pandemic itself is heavily politicized. Um, there was a big election that year, you know, Trump and Biden, which was going to decide the future of America. Um, not long after January 6th happened. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these landmark political events as like, you now, Gen Z in particular was coming of age, they were becoming kind of, I guess, like politically activated in that moment. And these are the people doing the job because, you know, the old institutions were failing them. A lot of news networks were not covering this moment, um, accurately or usefully. And then you had people like a Hasan step and be like, okay, ‘well I’m gonna tell you how things are actually as I see them’ as opposed to like, you know, it’s business as usual because it clearly wasn’t. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there is this pivotal moment for pandemic-era politics online, the Among Us stream. In 2020, in the weeks leading up to the election, representatives Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Ilhan Omar hosted a voter outreach event entirely on stream. They invited popular creators to play Among Us, a game that had become a phenomenon during the pandemic. Everyone plays as cute little characters, but one of them is a secret killer. If you’ve ever played Mafia, you get the idea. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Game play conversation]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Speaker 1: Ilhan you need to vote. You need to click on AOC and then… AOC: Are you, are you really gonna do this to me, Ilhan? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ilhan: No, I’m not voting for Alex. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AOC: Thank you. Thank you very much. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Among Us was the game at that time because Among Us allowed people to, you know, have a place to play together during this time of intense separation. And so it blew up and like, they capitalized on that zeitgeist and they’re like, yeah, as a politician, I’m going to play it with a bunch of people that you’ve heard of. So I’m gonna reach these new audiences, maybe you’ve of me, but like, don’t really know me that well and aren’t that into politics. And these streamers definitely are political streamers, aside from Hasan. Most of them are semi-progressive, but they’re not like experts in the field. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, yeah, they, they pulled, you know, hundreds of thousands of viewers, um, and just generally managed to do something that nobody really had before, at least in that space. And I think at the time, a lot of people saw that and they said, okay, you know this is it, this is the new politics meta. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hasan’s popularity and influence, and all of the other political streamers that followed in his footsteps, launched Twitch into the spotlight. But all of that attention comes with a hefty dose of criticism. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s something Denims has become very familiar with. She’s a political streamer who basically runs a morning talk show on Twitch, streaming five days a week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think Hassan really put Twitch on the radar in a more general sense because prior to that it was just like, oh, isn’t that some gaming website if you even knew about it at all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How has your experience as a political content creator changed on Twitch? \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of people were a lot more lackadaisical with how they would stream and I think I’ve noticed myself as well as a lot other people be a lot cautious with the things that they talk about because there are a lot bad faith actors that do want to see left-wing voices silenced. I mean, under the Trumpian era, he’s practically just saying if you have an opinion that isn’t pro-me, I don’t want you on the air. That’s the reason Kimmel got off the air. Because Donald Trump didn’t want him on the air because he didn’t like the things that he was saying because he was making fun of Donald Trump. So yeah, it does feel like everyone has to be more cautious on Twitch because there’s a bigger magnifier on it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today’s political climate is very different from the one that Hasan began streaming in. The vibe has shifted, and the stakes are higher. What does this mean for Twitch? And more importantly, what does it tell us about the state of political speech online? We’re diving into that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re back. Time to open another tab. Is political speech still allowed on Twitch? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Politicians have been trying to capitalize on Twitch’s popularity among young voters for years, with mixed results. Former Congressman Matt Gaetz, for instance, streamed on Twitch and peaked at six viewers. Then you have Senator Bernie Sanders going on stream and learning a lot about the internet. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Bernie Sanders livestream]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Poki: Mr. Sanders, my name’s Poki. So nice to meet you. I’m a big fan, as you can tell. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bernie Sanders: Thank you very much. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Saikuno: I’m Saikuno. Do you know what a VTuber is? Have you heard of a Vtuber before? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bernie Sanders: Nope. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Saikuno: No.? That’s all right. I’m the first one.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Speaker: Yeah, it’s the first one. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Saikuno: Thank you so much for supporting Vtubers.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there’s California governor Gavin Newsom showing off his elite gaming skills. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Fortnite Friday w/ Governor Gavin Newsom]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Connor Eats Pants: Gavin press press the press the X button or Y.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Governor Gavin Newsom: Oh, yeah, where am I man? Where are we? No, sorry. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That last clip is from a few weeks ago, when Newsom joined Fortnite Friday, a weekly show in which a streamer who goes by Connor Eats Pants interviews guests while they play Fortnite. The quality of the guests’ play varies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Fortnite Friday w/ Governor Gavin Newsom]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Governor Gavin Newsom: Jesus Christ, I closed things out. See, I don’t like this Nintendo Switch stuff. I’m back in, man. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s Aftermath reporter Nathan again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of those are not necessarily political streamers, political content creators and so if you do it right, you’re reaching people you would never otherwise reach. And the way that you do that is a little different than like, you know, I’m gonna go on this debate and talk about my policies. It’s, I’m going to talk to this person that, you know, other people find relatable, and I’m just gonna like, hang out, laugh, tell jokes, get a little bit more personal with things, or at least appear more personal. You know, that the ConnorEatsPants stream with Gavin Newsom is illustrative because I think that Gavin Newsom talked a very big game and then, you know, a few days later vetoed a bunch of pro-trans legislation after being like… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Fortnite Friday w/ Governor Gavin Newsom]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Governor Gavin Newsom: You know, you’re talking to a guy who’s been a champion of LGBT rights. I take a backseat to no one in signing more bills for the community. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that we’re also seeing, like, at least in the case of somebody like Connor, you know, these people who came up on the internet, pretty young, like growing up. And even as he was like, kind of decamping from the Gavin Newsom stream, he was talking about how like, he’s had to kind of become better versed in a lot of these things as he’s talked to more and more political figures. He’s also interviewed people like George Santos. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so people were asking him why he didn’t push harder on a couple subjects and he was like, ‘I just didn’t feel like I was informed enough to do it well, and I want to do it right instead of, you know, like stumbling through it and then letting him off easy,’ Um, but he still did a crazy good job. I mean, like, I don’t know if anyone has held Gavin Newsom’s feet to the fire on like Israel Palestine stuff that well, he just like kept him on track. It was really impressive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While playing Fortnite, it was incredible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he’s good at Fortnite too. Gavin Newsom is not good at Fortnight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Fortnite Friday w/ Governor Gavin Newsom]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ConnorEatsPants: \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You closed out of it on the switch. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Governor Gavin Newsom: \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know. I don’t like this. I can’t, this switch is not \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">suboptimal.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ConnorEatsPants: You gotta get a Switch 2, they fixed it. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it seems like political streamers on Twitch have faced constant backlash in the last few years. What was the turning point for this? Like, when did they suddenly become so controversial? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, Israel/Palestine, um, and in particular Hasan being pro-Palestinian because then you had all of these other people trying to bring him down because he’s such an outspoken and like visible pro-Palestinian voice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A few years ago, Hasan collaborated with another YouTuber, Ethan Klein, on a weekly politics and culture podcast called Leftovers. They don’t work together anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">October 7th occurred and they started to drift in terms of their viewpoints.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For context, Ethan’s wife is Israeli. Hasan and Ethan did one last very emotional, hours-long episode of Leftovers together, in which they try to explain their opposing views to each other. But they ultimately put the show on hiatus. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since their breakup, Ethan has gone from criticizing Hasan’s political stances to making frequent personal attacks about Hasan and anyone critical of Israel. Hasan, meanwhile, started gaining more mainstream attention and viewership, and has rarely acknowledged Ethan since. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then Ethan was like, well, then I’m gonna come after people that you know. And that’s like what resulted in those streamers getting banned after the TwitchCon panel and all that. And ever since then, it’s been much more personal and much more of a back and forth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When Nathan says ‘streamers getting banned after a TwitchCon panel,’ he’s actually referring to an incident with denims. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I got banned for 30 days for a tier list about who can say the word habibi, which is just the arab word for like love or like my love. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last year, Denims participated in a panel, organized by Twitch, with other Arab-American creators. They made a tier list—it’s a meme format for ranking things. At the top of the list were creators who Denims and the other panelists deemed worthy of saying Habibi. The tiers ranked from Arab, Arab-coded, asks permission to say Habibi, thinks the word is a slur and then…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the bottom of the list, it says “loves Sabra”, because sabra is a sh*tty type of hummus that’s not good. And anyone who’s had Sabra and had actual good hummus, you know that Sabra’s got this bitter taste. It’s like buying freezer pie. It’s just not good. Like, you should just make it from scratch. And so if you love Sabra hummus you’re like, this is my favorite hummus, you do not get the pass, you don’t get the pass. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Analysts placed Ethan Klein in the loves Sabra category. He very quickly posted his response. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Twitch Has a Major Problem Youtube post]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ethan Klein: I mean, it’s kind of just Arab good, Jew bad. I mean I’m having a hard time seeing this any other way. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some critics claim that it was deeper, because Sabra, the hummus brand, was a boycott target over its parent company’s support of the IDF. Then others pointed out that the word Sabra, a prickly pear cactus fruit, has been used to describe Jewish people born in Israel. One of the panelists was Jewish, but that didn’t stop the accusations of antisemitism. Clips of the panel went viral, kicking off a frenzy of backlash. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We make multiple references to hummus on that panel. So we’re very clearly talking about hummus. But there was this massive campaign to pretend like, no, we were making this Jew to Arab tier list, which is insane. It doesn’t make any sense because we put a bunch of people who weren’t Jewish, myself included in the bottom tier list. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s worth noting that all five of the creators on that panel are left-leaning and make content about supporting progressive political issues. And they’re all vocally pro-Palestine.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Denims:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …and Twitch caved and banned us for 30 days, which was insane because again, you’re just telling the platform, you’re telling everyone on that platform, hey, if you pressure us hard enough we’ll just cave and wrongfully ban anyone you want which is not, it’s not good for the health of the platform.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nathan described Twitch’s approach to moderating political content as haphazard. The site was relatively left-leaning until recently, thanks to Hasan’s influence and the platform’s strict policies against harassment and hate speech. These violations are pretty clear-cut when a streamer says a slur, for example. But Twitch has struggled to draw clear boundaries around political speech. Critics say the company tends to cave to backlash. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Twitch is always reactive when it comes to this stuff. They are not proactive. They don’t really know how to moderate this. I think that they don’t mind that because it gives them legitimacy, but they also don’t want to engage with the full ramifications of it. So they’re just sort of flying by the seat of their pants. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Denims, for one, has been frustrated by this inconsistency. She and the other panelists received 30-day bans for last year’s Twitch con tier list. Asmongold, a right-wing political streamer, was banned for 14 days for violating Twitch’s hateful conduct policy with a racist tirade against Palestinians. Denims noted that other creators have been allowed to return to the platform, even though they’ve received multiple bans for saying slurs on stream. But streamers who talk about politics, even if it’s just explaining a news story, are under more\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s sad because it doesn’t actually matter what you’re doing on Twitch. You can do basically anything on Twitch and you won’t get banned for it, almost anything, as long as there isn’t anyone actively trying to organize a campaign to get you banned. They’re in desperate need of help on figuring out how to handle politics on Twitch \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ethan Klein’s efforts to pick fights with Hasan, and anyone associated with him, have also been picked up by actual elected officials. Like last year, when Congressman Ritchie Torres penned an open letter to Twitch executives, calling on them to rein in anti-Semitism on the platform. He cited Hasan’s comments criticizing Israel, which Hasan said were clipped and taken out of context. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The backlash against progressive voices on Twitch has been mounting since Trump took office. Charlie Kirk’s death only intensified it. The accused shooter Tyler Robinson had made references to memes and video games in his Discord messages and on the bullet casings. In the days following the shooting, the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee requested the attendance of the CEOs of Discord, Steam, Reddit, and Twitch at a hearing on radicalization and extremism on their sites. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The hearing was postponed because of the government shutdown, but the increased criticism of online political speech has made talking about current events especially complicated for streamers like Denims. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On Twitch, if you say anything and there are any people hate-watching, they will try as hard as they can to clip you, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: …\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Clipping as\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">in literally pulling clips from streams and posting them on Twitter or TikTok and sites like that. Sometimes viewers will go out of their way to post clips out of context. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think I’ve just gotten, again, so internet brainrotted that when I speak, I will speak in full sentences and like, reiterate points over and over and over again. So, like, during the Charlie Kirk assassination, I said multiple times, like every two sentences I was saying, ‘I don’t condone the assassinating of any political content creators or political media influencers, or any of these any pundits.’ Like, because you have to because you can’t say any sentences without immediately having that because you wanna make it as hard as possible to be clipped for anything you say to be posted. Cause even the few things that I have been clipped for, it’s like you play for like another 20 seconds and there’s context there. What I will say is it’s just more frustrating than it is anything else because we should collectively be able to talk about issues without worrying whether or not there was enough context in a 30 second clip. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But would Twitch ever really ban political content? And if they did, is there any space on the internet to still engage in these conversations? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open one more tab. Where can you stream besides Twitch? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s super unlikely that any creator would be able to launch and maintain their own version of Twitch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Creating a site like that is easier said than done because streaming is super expensive. You know, this has been Twitch’s own problem over the years. Twitch is not profitable, has not been profitable because there’s just so much bandwidth involved and when you are a streaming platform, your operation becomes more expensive as it gets bigger. And so in some ways it’s bad to grow, but, you know, it’ll be interesting to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Adding to the economic complexity is the fact that political content on Twitch rarely has ads. That’s because last year, Twitch rolled out a label for politics and sensitive social issues. Streamers have to label their content if they include former or current politicians talking about policies, coverage of elections, discussions of foreign policy, and any commentary and topics like gender, race, sexuality, or religion in a, “polarizing or inflammatory manner.” Basically, it lets advertisers opt out of advertising next to anything political and it also silos this kind of content. I asked Denims if she’d ever jump ship if Twitch continues to demonetize political speech. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Not really, no, because your alternatives are like streaming on YouTube, streaming on TikTok, which I don’t know to be fair, how good or bad TikTok live streaming is. I genuinely just like, I struggle to use the platform because I’m just not Zoomer enough yet for it. And then what’s the alternative like Kick? Yeah, you can be right next to the other 1700 gambling streamers. So there isn’t really, like, another place that I think a lot of people could call home. I think most people would end up just going to YouTube, which again should incentivize Twitch to improve their platform because why would you want to lose a bunch of creators to YouTube? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. After the shooting and after the response and all these crackdowns, a lot of people were speculating that Twitch would just ban political content in response to that. Do you ever see that happening? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, I don’t think Twitch will ever ban political content. I think that they understand that it’s too lucrative is the wrong word, but that it legitimizes the platform too much for them to remove it. It’s the same reason that YouTube would rather go through all of these proceedings with Congress than ever take down political content on YouTube because they enjoy the hegemony that they have over media. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s the thing with Twitch. Twitch doesn’t wanna lose its spot as being like the number one live streaming platform because they decided they couldn’t handle the heat of politics. I think that they want it. And I think they want that market share. I think that they just don’t know how to thread the needle just yet. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel like there’s been a massive pushback against general right-wing restriction of freedom of speech. And so I feel on Twitch, yeah, people are more cautious, but I think also people want to see other people fight and people want to fight. I mean, at one point, was it four million people canceled their like Disney subscription because Kimmel got put off the shelf? Like, that’s insane. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The congressional hearing on radicalization and online extremism was supposed to happen earlier this month. It’s unclear when or if the hearing will be rescheduled. The pressure to crack down on political speech isn’t unique to Twitch. Like we’ve talked about on the show before, this suppression is happening all over the internet. So then, what does the future of political streaming look like? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s hard to say. I think that if Twitch has its way, things won’t change too much, which of course, I don’t think they want anything to really change. They just wanna keep adding more layers of monetization to the site. But, you know, the hearing could go any number of ways and so at least in some regard, it will decide that future. If Hasan gets banned, then that’s an entirely different set of circumstances. That’s like a whole different reality. You know it’s the flap of the butterfly’s wings. Like we’ll see. I cannot predict that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The uncertainty hasn’t discouraged Denims from streaming. She’s been sued, doxed, harassed, and threatened, but she’s determined to keep her morning show going. For her, it’s about more than free speech than politics. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I just believe in what I say and I want to say what I believe and I think what I believe is empathy driven and it’s encouraging a world that makes everyone’s life better. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Regardless of whether or not I agree with you, I still want you to have health care. Whether or I agree, I still want you have housing. I still want you to have clean water, clean air. I think it’s cowardly to stop fighting for that, especially from, like, the comfort of my own home. Even if it, like, means a bunch of people will hate me, I don’t really care. It’s hard to care when I know that what I’m talking about is just improving everyone’s lives. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s happening on Twitch is a case study on the political content creator sphere as a whole. Across social media, across all the apps, these creators have amassed influence. The new generation of political pundits has proven that this niche can be lucrative. These content creators are incredibly valuable for social media companies if they’re making money, and also valuable to political figures to access new audiences. That is, until people use platforms like TikTok and Twitch to express dissent. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And yet… People love to post, and they love consuming content. There will always be a demand for this kind of commentary, especially as younger generations rely on political content creators to explain the news. So we don’t know what the future of political streaming looks like, but it’s clear that it’s not going away anytime soon. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode is produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa. Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our senior editor. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien, who is KQED’s director of podcasts. Original music, including our theme song and credits, by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager and Ethan Tovin-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, It would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Follow us on Instagram @CloseAlltabspod or TikTok @Closealltabs. And join our Discord. We’re in the Close All Tabs channel at discord.gg/KQED. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "TwitchCon, Twitch’s annual convention in San Diego for all things streaming and gaming, is facing heightened scrutiny after streamer Emiru was assaulted there during a meet-and-greet. The incident occurred after a series of streamers pulled out of the event over safety concerns and the growing specter of political violence. All of this has highlighted questions about the role of political commentary on Twitch — a genre that's exploded in the last few years, transforming the platform into much more than a gaming site. In this episode, Morgan is joined by author and reporter Nathan Grayson and political streamer Denims to explore Twitch’s rise as a hub for political speech, the company’s inconsistent handling of backlash against political creators, and whether any real alternatives exist for this new wave of commentators.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TwitchCon, Twitch’s annual convention in San Diego for all things streaming and gaming, is facing heightened scrutiny after streamer Emiru was assaulted there during a meet-and-greet. The incident occurred after a series of streamers pulled out of the event over safety concerns and the growing specter of political violence. All of this has highlighted questions about the role of political commentary on Twitch — a genre that’s exploded in the last few years, transforming the platform into much more than a gaming site. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Morgan is joined by author and reporter Nathan Grayson and political streamer Denims to explore Twitch’s rise as a hub for political speech, the company’s inconsistent handling of backlash against political creators, and whether any real alternatives exist for this new wave of commentators. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6693258081\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://aftermath.site/author/nathan-grayson\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nathan Grayson\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, co-founder and reporter at Aftermath \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.twitch.tv/denims\">Denims,\u003c/a> political streamer on Twitch\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://aftermath.site/twitch-twitchcon-2025-security-emiru-assault-irl-streamers\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Beefed Up TwitchCon Security Couldn’t Stop The Internet’s Issues From Spilling Over Into Real Life\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nathan Grayson, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aftermath\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.usermag.co/p/can-twitch-survive-ceo-dan-clancy-at-twitchcon-interview\">Can Twitch Survive? CEO Dan Clancy at Twitchcon\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Taylor Lorenz\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003ci>User Mag\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Stream-Big/Nathan-Grayson/9781982156763\">Stream Big: The Triumphs and Turmoils of Twitch and the Stars Behind the Screen\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nathan Grayson\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://mashable.com/article/twitchcon-unsafe-for-streamers\">Why is TwitchCon so uniquely unsafe for streamers?\u003c/a> — Christianna Silva, \u003ci>Mashable\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>bbno$ speaking to a crowd: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Get a hell yeah!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Crowd: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">hell yeah!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>bbno$:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Twitchcon!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Crowd: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Twitchcon!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>bbno$: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right click! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Two weekends ago, the live streaming platform Twitch held its 10th annual TwitchCon. That’s Twitch’s annual convention in San Diego for all things streaming and gaming. And the tape you just heard was the rapper turned cosplayer, bbno$, performing at one of the creator after parties. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>bbno$: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">F*ck yeah, TwitchCon! \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I went into this weekend’s planning to cover Twitch’s evolution as an influential platform for political speech. These creators have massive audiences and have the potential to educate and inspire entire generations into civic engagement. And my quest to talk to them brought me here… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>bbno$: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right click! \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TwitchCon has had its controversies in the past, from the infamous foam pit that severely injured multiple attendees to streamers from the rival platform Kick sneaking in to harass Twitch creators. But this time, the event was held in the shadow of this country’s mounting political violence, most notably the recent assassination of right-wing political commentator Charlie Kirk. In the weeks leading up to the convention, high-profile streamers like Hasan Piker dropped out of the event citing concern over public safety and political violence. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Hasan Piker speaking during a livestream: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m worried about the safety of others. I don’t want to put them in the f*cking crosshairs if some psycho freak decides like, I’m gonna go there. I’m very publicly not going to TwitchCon for that reason. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And concerns about safety boiled over completely when, on the first day of the event, a streamer named Emiru was assaulted during her Twitch-organized meet and greet. A man was able to cross multiple barriers through other creators’ meet and greet lines before he grabbed Emiru and tried to forcibly kiss her. In a statement, Twitch said that, “Law enforcement and event security were on site and responded to the incident.” But Emiru said that event staff didn’t step in to stop him. It was her own private security that intervened. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emiru speaking to an audience : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, if you watch the clip, the security guard who pushes the guy away is my security, the woman who pulls me to the back, my manager. If you’re a small streamer and you don’t have those resources or someone in your line is not filming, what the f*ck do you do? \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Twitch did significantly beef up security before this year’s event. We’re talking more surveillance, more bodyguards, the whole nine yards. Still, the assault haunted TwitchCon all weekend. Other streamers, the overwhelming majority of whom were women, posted that they were nervous about going to the convention center. Some hired their own private security last minute, or even canceled their meet and greets. Several posted about getting harassed by fans and other male streamers during the event. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the last day of the convention, Twitch hosted an open Q&A for streamers and fans to talk directly to the company’s CEO, Dan Clancy. Finally, in the middle of the panel, an attendee stepped up to the mic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Q&A Attendee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How’s it going? I’ve been coming to TwitchCon since 2016. I love Twitch’s platform. I think the elephant in the room right now is just like there’s a lot of big creators that don’t necessarily feel that this is the safest space in person or necessarily online and I was just curious as to the additional steps that Twitch is going to take to make that, to change that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Clancy during Q&A: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Livestreaming offers some advantages in terms of the ability to control your community, but it’s still this issue that people of all sizes, it’s not just, you know, women of course have a challenge, but also underrepresented groups often have this problem of harassment online. And it’s something we care deeply about and we’re always looking for how we continue to invest to help protect creators as they go on their journey. So thanks for the question. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This weekend was a reckoning for Twitch. The streaming community has been embroiled in debate over the culture of misogyny on the platform and the parasocial relationships that endanger creators. And it highlighted questions about the role of political commentary in streaming, a genre of content that’s exploded in the last few years, establishing Twitch as more than a gaming site. Now it’s a legitimate platform for political discourse and not everyone is happy about that. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re diving into Twitch, political speech online, and whether creators have anywhere else to go if they can’t talk about it on Twitch. This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many people associate political commentary with traditional formats, like broadcast talk shows and op-eds, that kind of thing. But over the last few election cycles, an alternative information ecosystem has been growing across social media, including Twitch. But throughout its growth, Twitch hasn’t figured out how to handle this kind of content, from moderation to responding to public backlash. And as commentary streamers gain more influence Twitch has faced increasing scrutiny from both Democratic and Republican lawmakers who aren’t thrilled about this growing sphere of leftist discussion. Some are pushing Twitch to crack down on political speech and after the Charlie Kirk shooting, that pressure has been kicked into overdrive. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To understand how we got here, let’s go back to the very beginning by opening a new tab. When did Twitch get so political? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To get into this, let’s talk to my friend Nathan Grayson, co-founder and reporter at Aftermath. It’s a worker-owned publication reporting on video games. He’s also the author of Stream Big, which explains the history of Twitch by profiling nine different streamers. Twitch has changed and morphed many times since it spun off from the live streaming site Justin.tv in 2011. And for much of that time, Twitch had a singular focus, gaming.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For a long time in Twitch’s history, you were required to be playing a video game while streaming, like that was a rule and people tried to get around it and all these like really funny ways. Like there was an era where somebody would like invert kind of the size of their camera views. So instead of the game being really big and them being small, they’d be huge and there’d be a tiny little like bit of gameplay in the corner. That wasn’t technically allowed so people would get in trouble for it. But yeah, so it was that kind of a thing. And so it was pretty hard, you know, to like be a political commentator when you also had to be like, keeping up with a League of Legends match and Twitch finally said like, ‘Hey, you know, you guys clearly want to just talk to your audiences. We hear you, we’re going to let you.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2017, Twitch launched two new categories, Just Chatting and IRL, short for in real life. They paved the way for a new type of streamer, a chronically online talk show host. Hasan Piker, who was then a producer for the Young Turks, started streaming on Twitch the next year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hasan Piker speaking to a livestream audience: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s going on, everybody? I’m going to get really quickly into it. OK, today we have an awesome episode… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He started getting big around 2019, you know, it was like, he started that year with like a hundred thousand followers and ended it with like close to half a million. And so 2020, I think definitely, especially like, allowed us all to take off because we were all stuck inside as a result of the pandemic and there’s an election. The internet, when it comes to politics, especially, and then these like major events in the political landscape, like elections, it’s just chaos. There’s so much happening. And the role that somebody like Hasan serves is that they curate it for you, you know? And they do it in a language that you, as somebody who regularly like browses the internet, can understand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hasan Piker speaking to a livestream audience: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So let me like walk you through it. The reason why you push for a shutdown in this situation is to really highlight what you are seeking to protect, okay? And what you’re seeking to protect in this circumstance is $800 billion of cuts for Medicaid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is it about this particular moment in internet history that made political streams so popular on Twitch, beyond just Hassan? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, one of the things is a pandemic. You cannot understate the importance of that moment in that I would say that is when everybody’s world inverted. Before that, real life was the main thing and the internet was supplementary to it. And then with everybody stuck inside because of the pandemic, suddenly the internet became the real thing and real life with supplementary to it. And we never really went back. And as a result, I mean like, you know, the pandemic itself is heavily politicized. Um, there was a big election that year, you know, Trump and Biden, which was going to decide the future of America. Um, not long after January 6th happened. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these landmark political events as like, you now, Gen Z in particular was coming of age, they were becoming kind of, I guess, like politically activated in that moment. And these are the people doing the job because, you know, the old institutions were failing them. A lot of news networks were not covering this moment, um, accurately or usefully. And then you had people like a Hasan step and be like, okay, ‘well I’m gonna tell you how things are actually as I see them’ as opposed to like, you know, it’s business as usual because it clearly wasn’t. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there is this pivotal moment for pandemic-era politics online, the Among Us stream. In 2020, in the weeks leading up to the election, representatives Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Ilhan Omar hosted a voter outreach event entirely on stream. They invited popular creators to play Among Us, a game that had become a phenomenon during the pandemic. Everyone plays as cute little characters, but one of them is a secret killer. If you’ve ever played Mafia, you get the idea. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Game play conversation]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Speaker 1: Ilhan you need to vote. You need to click on AOC and then… AOC: Are you, are you really gonna do this to me, Ilhan? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ilhan: No, I’m not voting for Alex. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AOC: Thank you. Thank you very much. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Among Us was the game at that time because Among Us allowed people to, you know, have a place to play together during this time of intense separation. And so it blew up and like, they capitalized on that zeitgeist and they’re like, yeah, as a politician, I’m going to play it with a bunch of people that you’ve heard of. So I’m gonna reach these new audiences, maybe you’ve of me, but like, don’t really know me that well and aren’t that into politics. And these streamers definitely are political streamers, aside from Hasan. Most of them are semi-progressive, but they’re not like experts in the field. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, yeah, they, they pulled, you know, hundreds of thousands of viewers, um, and just generally managed to do something that nobody really had before, at least in that space. And I think at the time, a lot of people saw that and they said, okay, you know this is it, this is the new politics meta. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hasan’s popularity and influence, and all of the other political streamers that followed in his footsteps, launched Twitch into the spotlight. But all of that attention comes with a hefty dose of criticism. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s something Denims has become very familiar with. She’s a political streamer who basically runs a morning talk show on Twitch, streaming five days a week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think Hassan really put Twitch on the radar in a more general sense because prior to that it was just like, oh, isn’t that some gaming website if you even knew about it at all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How has your experience as a political content creator changed on Twitch? \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of people were a lot more lackadaisical with how they would stream and I think I’ve noticed myself as well as a lot other people be a lot cautious with the things that they talk about because there are a lot bad faith actors that do want to see left-wing voices silenced. I mean, under the Trumpian era, he’s practically just saying if you have an opinion that isn’t pro-me, I don’t want you on the air. That’s the reason Kimmel got off the air. Because Donald Trump didn’t want him on the air because he didn’t like the things that he was saying because he was making fun of Donald Trump. So yeah, it does feel like everyone has to be more cautious on Twitch because there’s a bigger magnifier on it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today’s political climate is very different from the one that Hasan began streaming in. The vibe has shifted, and the stakes are higher. What does this mean for Twitch? And more importantly, what does it tell us about the state of political speech online? We’re diving into that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re back. Time to open another tab. Is political speech still allowed on Twitch? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Politicians have been trying to capitalize on Twitch’s popularity among young voters for years, with mixed results. Former Congressman Matt Gaetz, for instance, streamed on Twitch and peaked at six viewers. Then you have Senator Bernie Sanders going on stream and learning a lot about the internet. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Bernie Sanders livestream]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Poki: Mr. Sanders, my name’s Poki. So nice to meet you. I’m a big fan, as you can tell. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bernie Sanders: Thank you very much. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Saikuno: I’m Saikuno. Do you know what a VTuber is? Have you heard of a Vtuber before? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bernie Sanders: Nope. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Saikuno: No.? That’s all right. I’m the first one.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Speaker: Yeah, it’s the first one. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Saikuno: Thank you so much for supporting Vtubers.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there’s California governor Gavin Newsom showing off his elite gaming skills. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Fortnite Friday w/ Governor Gavin Newsom]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Connor Eats Pants: Gavin press press the press the X button or Y.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Governor Gavin Newsom: Oh, yeah, where am I man? Where are we? No, sorry. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That last clip is from a few weeks ago, when Newsom joined Fortnite Friday, a weekly show in which a streamer who goes by Connor Eats Pants interviews guests while they play Fortnite. The quality of the guests’ play varies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Fortnite Friday w/ Governor Gavin Newsom]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Governor Gavin Newsom: Jesus Christ, I closed things out. See, I don’t like this Nintendo Switch stuff. I’m back in, man. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s Aftermath reporter Nathan again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of those are not necessarily political streamers, political content creators and so if you do it right, you’re reaching people you would never otherwise reach. And the way that you do that is a little different than like, you know, I’m gonna go on this debate and talk about my policies. It’s, I’m going to talk to this person that, you know, other people find relatable, and I’m just gonna like, hang out, laugh, tell jokes, get a little bit more personal with things, or at least appear more personal. You know, that the ConnorEatsPants stream with Gavin Newsom is illustrative because I think that Gavin Newsom talked a very big game and then, you know, a few days later vetoed a bunch of pro-trans legislation after being like… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Fortnite Friday w/ Governor Gavin Newsom]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Governor Gavin Newsom: You know, you’re talking to a guy who’s been a champion of LGBT rights. I take a backseat to no one in signing more bills for the community. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that we’re also seeing, like, at least in the case of somebody like Connor, you know, these people who came up on the internet, pretty young, like growing up. And even as he was like, kind of decamping from the Gavin Newsom stream, he was talking about how like, he’s had to kind of become better versed in a lot of these things as he’s talked to more and more political figures. He’s also interviewed people like George Santos. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so people were asking him why he didn’t push harder on a couple subjects and he was like, ‘I just didn’t feel like I was informed enough to do it well, and I want to do it right instead of, you know, like stumbling through it and then letting him off easy,’ Um, but he still did a crazy good job. I mean, like, I don’t know if anyone has held Gavin Newsom’s feet to the fire on like Israel Palestine stuff that well, he just like kept him on track. It was really impressive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While playing Fortnite, it was incredible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he’s good at Fortnite too. Gavin Newsom is not good at Fortnight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Fortnite Friday w/ Governor Gavin Newsom]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ConnorEatsPants: \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You closed out of it on the switch. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Governor Gavin Newsom: \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know. I don’t like this. I can’t, this switch is not \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">suboptimal.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ConnorEatsPants: You gotta get a Switch 2, they fixed it. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it seems like political streamers on Twitch have faced constant backlash in the last few years. What was the turning point for this? Like, when did they suddenly become so controversial? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, Israel/Palestine, um, and in particular Hasan being pro-Palestinian because then you had all of these other people trying to bring him down because he’s such an outspoken and like visible pro-Palestinian voice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A few years ago, Hasan collaborated with another YouTuber, Ethan Klein, on a weekly politics and culture podcast called Leftovers. They don’t work together anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">October 7th occurred and they started to drift in terms of their viewpoints.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For context, Ethan’s wife is Israeli. Hasan and Ethan did one last very emotional, hours-long episode of Leftovers together, in which they try to explain their opposing views to each other. But they ultimately put the show on hiatus. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since their breakup, Ethan has gone from criticizing Hasan’s political stances to making frequent personal attacks about Hasan and anyone critical of Israel. Hasan, meanwhile, started gaining more mainstream attention and viewership, and has rarely acknowledged Ethan since. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then Ethan was like, well, then I’m gonna come after people that you know. And that’s like what resulted in those streamers getting banned after the TwitchCon panel and all that. And ever since then, it’s been much more personal and much more of a back and forth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When Nathan says ‘streamers getting banned after a TwitchCon panel,’ he’s actually referring to an incident with denims. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I got banned for 30 days for a tier list about who can say the word habibi, which is just the arab word for like love or like my love. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last year, Denims participated in a panel, organized by Twitch, with other Arab-American creators. They made a tier list—it’s a meme format for ranking things. At the top of the list were creators who Denims and the other panelists deemed worthy of saying Habibi. The tiers ranked from Arab, Arab-coded, asks permission to say Habibi, thinks the word is a slur and then…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the bottom of the list, it says “loves Sabra”, because sabra is a sh*tty type of hummus that’s not good. And anyone who’s had Sabra and had actual good hummus, you know that Sabra’s got this bitter taste. It’s like buying freezer pie. It’s just not good. Like, you should just make it from scratch. And so if you love Sabra hummus you’re like, this is my favorite hummus, you do not get the pass, you don’t get the pass. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Analysts placed Ethan Klein in the loves Sabra category. He very quickly posted his response. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Twitch Has a Major Problem Youtube post]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ethan Klein: I mean, it’s kind of just Arab good, Jew bad. I mean I’m having a hard time seeing this any other way. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some critics claim that it was deeper, because Sabra, the hummus brand, was a boycott target over its parent company’s support of the IDF. Then others pointed out that the word Sabra, a prickly pear cactus fruit, has been used to describe Jewish people born in Israel. One of the panelists was Jewish, but that didn’t stop the accusations of antisemitism. Clips of the panel went viral, kicking off a frenzy of backlash. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We make multiple references to hummus on that panel. So we’re very clearly talking about hummus. But there was this massive campaign to pretend like, no, we were making this Jew to Arab tier list, which is insane. It doesn’t make any sense because we put a bunch of people who weren’t Jewish, myself included in the bottom tier list. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s worth noting that all five of the creators on that panel are left-leaning and make content about supporting progressive political issues. And they’re all vocally pro-Palestine.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Denims:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …and Twitch caved and banned us for 30 days, which was insane because again, you’re just telling the platform, you’re telling everyone on that platform, hey, if you pressure us hard enough we’ll just cave and wrongfully ban anyone you want which is not, it’s not good for the health of the platform.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nathan described Twitch’s approach to moderating political content as haphazard. The site was relatively left-leaning until recently, thanks to Hasan’s influence and the platform’s strict policies against harassment and hate speech. These violations are pretty clear-cut when a streamer says a slur, for example. But Twitch has struggled to draw clear boundaries around political speech. Critics say the company tends to cave to backlash. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Twitch is always reactive when it comes to this stuff. They are not proactive. They don’t really know how to moderate this. I think that they don’t mind that because it gives them legitimacy, but they also don’t want to engage with the full ramifications of it. So they’re just sort of flying by the seat of their pants. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Denims, for one, has been frustrated by this inconsistency. She and the other panelists received 30-day bans for last year’s Twitch con tier list. Asmongold, a right-wing political streamer, was banned for 14 days for violating Twitch’s hateful conduct policy with a racist tirade against Palestinians. Denims noted that other creators have been allowed to return to the platform, even though they’ve received multiple bans for saying slurs on stream. But streamers who talk about politics, even if it’s just explaining a news story, are under more\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s sad because it doesn’t actually matter what you’re doing on Twitch. You can do basically anything on Twitch and you won’t get banned for it, almost anything, as long as there isn’t anyone actively trying to organize a campaign to get you banned. They’re in desperate need of help on figuring out how to handle politics on Twitch \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ethan Klein’s efforts to pick fights with Hasan, and anyone associated with him, have also been picked up by actual elected officials. Like last year, when Congressman Ritchie Torres penned an open letter to Twitch executives, calling on them to rein in anti-Semitism on the platform. He cited Hasan’s comments criticizing Israel, which Hasan said were clipped and taken out of context. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The backlash against progressive voices on Twitch has been mounting since Trump took office. Charlie Kirk’s death only intensified it. The accused shooter Tyler Robinson had made references to memes and video games in his Discord messages and on the bullet casings. In the days following the shooting, the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee requested the attendance of the CEOs of Discord, Steam, Reddit, and Twitch at a hearing on radicalization and extremism on their sites. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The hearing was postponed because of the government shutdown, but the increased criticism of online political speech has made talking about current events especially complicated for streamers like Denims. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On Twitch, if you say anything and there are any people hate-watching, they will try as hard as they can to clip you, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: …\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Clipping as\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">in literally pulling clips from streams and posting them on Twitter or TikTok and sites like that. Sometimes viewers will go out of their way to post clips out of context. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think I’ve just gotten, again, so internet brainrotted that when I speak, I will speak in full sentences and like, reiterate points over and over and over again. So, like, during the Charlie Kirk assassination, I said multiple times, like every two sentences I was saying, ‘I don’t condone the assassinating of any political content creators or political media influencers, or any of these any pundits.’ Like, because you have to because you can’t say any sentences without immediately having that because you wanna make it as hard as possible to be clipped for anything you say to be posted. Cause even the few things that I have been clipped for, it’s like you play for like another 20 seconds and there’s context there. What I will say is it’s just more frustrating than it is anything else because we should collectively be able to talk about issues without worrying whether or not there was enough context in a 30 second clip. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But would Twitch ever really ban political content? And if they did, is there any space on the internet to still engage in these conversations? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open one more tab. Where can you stream besides Twitch? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s super unlikely that any creator would be able to launch and maintain their own version of Twitch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Creating a site like that is easier said than done because streaming is super expensive. You know, this has been Twitch’s own problem over the years. Twitch is not profitable, has not been profitable because there’s just so much bandwidth involved and when you are a streaming platform, your operation becomes more expensive as it gets bigger. And so in some ways it’s bad to grow, but, you know, it’ll be interesting to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Adding to the economic complexity is the fact that political content on Twitch rarely has ads. That’s because last year, Twitch rolled out a label for politics and sensitive social issues. Streamers have to label their content if they include former or current politicians talking about policies, coverage of elections, discussions of foreign policy, and any commentary and topics like gender, race, sexuality, or religion in a, “polarizing or inflammatory manner.” Basically, it lets advertisers opt out of advertising next to anything political and it also silos this kind of content. I asked Denims if she’d ever jump ship if Twitch continues to demonetize political speech. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Not really, no, because your alternatives are like streaming on YouTube, streaming on TikTok, which I don’t know to be fair, how good or bad TikTok live streaming is. I genuinely just like, I struggle to use the platform because I’m just not Zoomer enough yet for it. And then what’s the alternative like Kick? Yeah, you can be right next to the other 1700 gambling streamers. So there isn’t really, like, another place that I think a lot of people could call home. I think most people would end up just going to YouTube, which again should incentivize Twitch to improve their platform because why would you want to lose a bunch of creators to YouTube? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. After the shooting and after the response and all these crackdowns, a lot of people were speculating that Twitch would just ban political content in response to that. Do you ever see that happening? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Denims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, I don’t think Twitch will ever ban political content. I think that they understand that it’s too lucrative is the wrong word, but that it legitimizes the platform too much for them to remove it. It’s the same reason that YouTube would rather go through all of these proceedings with Congress than ever take down political content on YouTube because they enjoy the hegemony that they have over media. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s the thing with Twitch. Twitch doesn’t wanna lose its spot as being like the number one live streaming platform because they decided they couldn’t handle the heat of politics. I think that they want it. And I think they want that market share. I think that they just don’t know how to thread the needle just yet. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel like there’s been a massive pushback against general right-wing restriction of freedom of speech. And so I feel on Twitch, yeah, people are more cautious, but I think also people want to see other people fight and people want to fight. I mean, at one point, was it four million people canceled their like Disney subscription because Kimmel got put off the shelf? Like, that’s insane. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The congressional hearing on radicalization and online extremism was supposed to happen earlier this month. It’s unclear when or if the hearing will be rescheduled. The pressure to crack down on political speech isn’t unique to Twitch. Like we’ve talked about on the show before, this suppression is happening all over the internet. So then, what does the future of political streaming look like? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nathan Grayson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s hard to say. I think that if Twitch has its way, things won’t change too much, which of course, I don’t think they want anything to really change. They just wanna keep adding more layers of monetization to the site. But, you know, the hearing could go any number of ways and so at least in some regard, it will decide that future. If Hasan gets banned, then that’s an entirely different set of circumstances. That’s like a whole different reality. You know it’s the flap of the butterfly’s wings. Like we’ll see. I cannot predict that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The uncertainty hasn’t discouraged Denims from streaming. She’s been sued, doxed, harassed, and threatened, but she’s determined to keep her morning show going. For her, it’s about more than free speech than politics. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Denims:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I just believe in what I say and I want to say what I believe and I think what I believe is empathy driven and it’s encouraging a world that makes everyone’s life better. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Regardless of whether or not I agree with you, I still want you to have health care. Whether or I agree, I still want you have housing. I still want you to have clean water, clean air. I think it’s cowardly to stop fighting for that, especially from, like, the comfort of my own home. Even if it, like, means a bunch of people will hate me, I don’t really care. It’s hard to care when I know that what I’m talking about is just improving everyone’s lives. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s happening on Twitch is a case study on the political content creator sphere as a whole. Across social media, across all the apps, these creators have amassed influence. The new generation of political pundits has proven that this niche can be lucrative. These content creators are incredibly valuable for social media companies if they’re making money, and also valuable to political figures to access new audiences. That is, until people use platforms like TikTok and Twitch to express dissent. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And yet… People love to post, and they love consuming content. There will always be a demand for this kind of commentary, especially as younger generations rely on political content creators to explain the news. So we don’t know what the future of political streaming looks like, but it’s clear that it’s not going away anytime soon. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode is produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa. Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our senior editor. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien, who is KQED’s director of podcasts. Original music, including our theme song and credits, by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager and Ethan Tovin-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, It would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Follow us on Instagram @CloseAlltabspod or TikTok @Closealltabs. And join our Discord. We’re in the Close All Tabs channel at discord.gg/KQED. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"tagline": "The flip side of gentrification, told through one town",
"info": "Gentrification is changing cities across America, forcing people from neighborhoods they have long called home. Call them the displaced. Now those priced out of the Bay Area are looking for a better life in an unlikely place. American Suburb follows this migration to one California town along the Delta, 45 miles from San Francisco. But is this once sleepy suburb ready for them?",
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"tagline": "Exploring the Bay Area, one question at a time",
"info": "KQED’s new podcast, Bay Curious, gets to the bottom of the mysteries — both profound and peculiar — that give the Bay Area its unique identity. And we’ll do it with your help! You ask the questions. You decide what Bay Curious investigates. And you join us on the journey to find the answers.",
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"info": "KQED’s statewide radio news program providing daily coverage of issues, trends and public policy decisions.",
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"order": 8
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},
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
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"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 9
},
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"hidden-brain": {
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
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"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"order": 18
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"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
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"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
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"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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