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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Monday, Aug. 31 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are you still wearing sunscreen? There’s been a recent wave of viral TikToks declaring that sunscreen is “toxic,” and they’ve helped ignite an anti-sunscreen movement. With recent surveys showing that millions of Americans are cutting back on sun protection, dermatologists worry that misinformation will lead to higher rates of skin cancer and melanoma. We look at what’s driving “sunscreen hesitancy,” dig into the social media claims and hear how health providers are pushing back against misinformation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood,\u003c/strong> beauty and grooming director of \u003cem>Men’s Health\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Women’s Health\u003c/em> and writer of \u003ca href=\"https://www.menshealth.com/health/a71867310/anti-sunscreen-movement/\">“The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You” \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd,\u003c/strong> board-certified dermatologist and founder of DermFriends\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Some 16 million adults reported reducing or stopping sunscreen use, according to the American Academy of Dermatology’s 2026 Practice Safe Sun Survey, because of online claims about its safety. And a 2024 survey by the Orlando Health Cancer Institute found that one in seven adults under the age of 35 now believes that daily sunscreen use is more harmful to skin than direct sun exposure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This I learned from Brian Underwood’s piece in Men’s Health last month, called “The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You.” In this hour, we take a closer look at the growing influence of sunscreen opponents and what impact it’s had. Underwood is Beauty and Grooming Director of Men’s Health and Women’s Health and joins me now. Brian, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me, Mina.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us is Dr. Heather Woolery-Lloyd, board-certified dermatologist and founder of DermFriends. Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, really glad to have you with us too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Brian, let me start with you. Tell me about some of these claims on social media. What are influencers saying?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, a myriad of things, but I think that some of the researchers that looked into this have found that the number one thing that sort of anti-sunscreen creators are talking about is the toxicity of certain ingredients that they claim are in sunscreens. And this is mainly the organic filters, commonly known as chemical filters. And that is sort of the main driving argument that these creators have, is that these ingredients are somehow toxic. Some of them, you know, they claim are cancer-causing themselves. And, you know, among other things, I would say that is probably the most prevalent claim that they make on social media platforms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And how colorful shall — I always say, hey, are some of these videos or messages getting —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, as somebody who did quite a deep dive into this topic for Men’s Health, I viewed quite a few of these videos. And obviously, you know, we’re talking about social media here. So you want to get and hold people’s attention. And the more outlandish you are in doing so, the more the algorithm is going to favor you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you have people setting fire to spray sunscreens to create these sort of — almost look like makeshift torches from \u003cem>The Walking Dead\u003c/em> or something. But, of course, that’s really what it’s about. It’s about capturing people’s attention, and the way that these platforms prioritize that is by being as outlandish as possible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And from the stats I quoted, they are capturing people’s attention, right? These messages have been convincing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it appears that way. And that was sort of the genesis of this story. I was speaking to some of my friends at some major skin cancer nonprofits, and some of my other contacts at dermatology associations like the American Academy of Dermatology. And both of those organizations were taking sunscreen misinformation on social media platforms very seriously and have launched campaigns to combat some of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that’s when I realized, that’s what it became — something that I was just seeing on my feed. That’s when it transformed into something that I thought was a bigger story. If these organizations were taking this seriously, then perhaps I, as a journalist, should be taking it seriously. And that is kind of what led me to do this story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And which groups do you find that these messages seem to be having the most effect on right now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> You know, it’s hard to say, but anecdotally, from diving into this world, a lot of the creators were young men. And that’s kind of why we decided to run this story in Men’s Health. We know that men, I think it’s in the 80 percents, do not use sunscreen daily. And so we know that they are already primed for that message. And so that’s one of the reasons, as I said, that we decided to run this piece in, you know, in Men’s Health in particular.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, when you hear this, that these messages are having an impact, they’re having an impact among men in particular, and even Gen Z, I understand. You know, what goes through your mind? Does it concern you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, because, of course, we know that sunscreen is important to protect us against skin cancer and some of the effects of the sun. I treat a lot of patients with darker skin where sun is really responsible for hyperpigmentation when you’re treating pigmentary disorders. So it’s a really important tool for dermatologists, and it is concerning because it’s an unnecessary fear that we’re seeing on social media, and it’s really not based on a lot of data or science.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what does the American Academy of Dermatologists sort of recommend when it comes to sunscreen use, or you as a doctor?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> So we recommend sunscreen, a minimum of SPF 30, ideally broad spectrum, which means UVA and UVB coverage, daily to exposed areas. And we use sunscreen for different reasons. One reason, as I mentioned, is to prevent skin cancer, especially in people who are at risk for skin cancer with lighter skin tones. And then with people with darker skin tones, we use sunscreen to help manage certain pigmentary disorders, like hyperpigmentation, uneven skin tone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it’s a really important tool for dermatologists, and I think it’s important that the public understands that this fear that we see online is not really based on any science.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So FDA-approved sunscreens, you would say, are safe?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the FDA has stated that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. And so why, then, is there some power to the social media messages, Brian? Because I feel like, you know, I remember, for example, that, you know, there were concerns about oxybenzone or avobenzone, mainly that it can mess with your hormones or that it’s an endocrine disruptor and things like that. So there were things that the FDA, you know, was sort of suggesting in its messaging, there was science that was sort of suggesting — we were coming out of tests and so on. Can you just talk about where some of the believability for the messages of these influencers may have come from?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, you know, there is some data that shows that certain organic sunscreen filters do have some hormone-related effects. There was a research review, I believe in 2023, that looked at more than 200 studies and found some of that. I think, and that is the data that these anti-sunscreen creators are sort of latching onto.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think what’s really important is that you give that data some context, and that’s what’s not happening on social media. So a lot of that data, the vast majority of that, was conducted in rodents and cell cultures and fish. And it is what Dr. Robert Nelson, who I also interviewed for this story, describes as low-relevance data. So it is really not data that you can extrapolate any conclusion from that would lead you to say that sunscreen is unsafe.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think at the same time, as you mentioned, in 2019, I believe it was, the FDA did a review of sunscreen ingredients and, you know, categorized them differently. So organic and, or chemical, sunscreen filters were Category 3, which means that the FDA was looking for more safety data because they did find that these ingredients were absorbed into the bloodstream at levels higher than what they would have liked to have seen. And I think that caused a lot of confusion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, that 2019 study, it specifically states that the conclusion of the study should not lead anyone to not use sunscreen. So that’s very important to know. And there really is decades of data, safety data, on these ingredients from use overseas that I think the FDA is just a little sluggish to adopt as part of its monograph.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think that’s where the confusion came in, because if you’re a consumer and the FDA is telling you, “We need more safety data on these,” but they’re not pulling products from the shelf, I can see why you as a consumer or a creator would be confused by that. But I think it’s really important to understand that in its own conclusion, the FDA says, do not use this data to justify not using sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, how do you interpret what came out about oxybenzone? What do you tell your patients as well? And do you agree with what Brian is saying? The FDA and other doctors have told them, which is that this is not a reason to refrain from using sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, I totally agree with what Brian described so perfectly, which is that the information where a lot of this online interest comes from was this study that was done by the FDA. However, in that study, they concluded that — they stated that sunscreens were safe, including oxybenzone, and it shouldn’t stop people from wearing sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in my practice, I absolutely recommend sunscreens to my patients. And I, you know, luckily in my practice, no one has really asked me so much about this. It might be more of a discussion online in certain groups of people, but it hasn’t trickled into people who I see every day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that being said, I feel very comfortable and confident recommending sunscreens for my patients based on the data we have today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know, the studies show that oxybenzone could be absorbed into the bloodstream. You’re saying does not mean conclusively that it causes harm?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Correct, because there’s no studies to suggest that. We have decades of research on sunscreens, like real-life human use of sunscreen, and not lab studies done on rodents and on other animals. And it is considered safe. And the FDA has stated that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So it sounds like you’re saying the greater risk really is avoiding sunscreen altogether than the ingredients that have been necessarily singled out. And then you’re talking about these other studies. What are these other studies showing in terms of effectiveness of sunscreen in preventing skin cancer?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> And actually, I just wanted to mention one other thing because we’re talking a lot about oxybenzone, but interestingly, oxybenzone is not now commonly used in sunscreen. So it used to be a very common sunscreen ingredient. It used to be seen probably in more than 90% of sunscreens, but now it’s actually less frequently used. So even though there’s a lot of discussion about it, it’s not commonly used anymore. So I did want to mention that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. An important point that, regardless of whether or not you are worried about it, probably in part because of the bad PR, regardless of the science, it is no longer in as many bottles of sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> That’s correct.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Dr. Heather Woolery-Lloyd, board-certified dermatologist, and Brian Underwood of Men’s Health, who’s written a piece called “The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You.” And you, our listeners, join the conversation at 866-733-6786, at the email address forum@kqed.org, or on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Do you wear sunscreen regularly, listeners? Why or why not? Have you noticed anti-sunscreen influencers in your feeds? You know, do they make you sunscreen-hesitant? Or are the messages concerning to you? Stay with us for more after the break. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Are you still wearing sunscreen? There’s been a recent wave of viral TikToks declaring that sunscreen is “toxic,” and they’ve helped ignite an anti-sunscreen movement. With recent surveys showing that millions of Americans are cutting back on sun protection, dermatologists worry that misinformation will lead to higher rates of skin cancer and melanoma. We look at what’s driving “sunscreen hesitancy,” dig into the social media claims and hear how health providers are pushing back against misinformation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Are you still wearing sunscreen? There’s been a recent wave of viral TikToks declaring that sunscreen is “toxic,” and they’ve helped ignite an anti-sunscreen movement. With recent surveys showing that millions of Americans are cutting back on sun protection, dermatologists worry that misinformation will lead to higher rates of skin cancer and melanoma. We look at what’s driving “sunscreen hesitancy,” dig into the social media claims and hear how health providers are pushing back against misinformation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Some 16 million adults reported reducing or stopping sunscreen use, according to the American Academy of Dermatology’s 2026 Practice Safe Sun Survey, because of online claims about its safety. And a 2024 survey by the Orlando Health Cancer Institute found that one in seven adults under the age of 35 now believes that daily sunscreen use is more harmful to skin than direct sun exposure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Some 16 million adults reported reducing or stopping sunscreen use, according to the American Academy of Dermatology’s 2026 Practice Safe Sun Survey, because of online claims about its safety. And a 2024 survey by the Orlando Health Cancer Institute found that one in seven adults under the age of 35 now believes that daily sunscreen use is more harmful to skin than direct sun exposure.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This I learned from Brian Underwood’s piece in Men’s Health last month, called “The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You.” In this hour, we take a closer look at the growing influence of sunscreen opponents and what impact it’s had. Underwood is Beauty and Grooming Director of Men’s Health and Women’s Health and joins me now. Brian, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This I learned from Brian Underwood’s piece in Men’s Health last month, called “The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You.” In this hour, we take a closer look at the growing influence of sunscreen opponents and what impact it’s had. Underwood is Beauty and Grooming Director of Men’s Health and Women’s Health and joins me now. Brian, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me, Mina.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me, Mina.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us is Dr. Heather Woolery-Lloyd, board-certified dermatologist and founder of DermFriends. Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, really glad to have you with us too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us is Dr. Heather Woolery-Lloyd, board-certified dermatologist and founder of DermFriends. Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, really glad to have you with us too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Brian, let me start with you. Tell me about some of these claims on social media. What are influencers saying?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Brian, let me start with you. Tell me about some of these claims on social media. What are influencers saying?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, a myriad of things, but I think that some of the researchers that looked into this have found that the number one thing that sort of anti-sunscreen creators are talking about is the toxicity of certain ingredients that they claim are in sunscreens. And this is mainly the organic filters, commonly known as chemical filters. And that is sort of the main driving argument that these creators have, is that these ingredients are somehow toxic. Some of them, you know, they claim are cancer-causing themselves. And, you know, among other things, I would say that is probably the most prevalent claim that they make on social media platforms.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, a myriad of things, but I think that some of the researchers that looked into this have found that the number one thing that sort of anti-sunscreen creators are talking about is the toxicity of certain ingredients that they claim are in sunscreens. And this is mainly the organic filters, commonly known as chemical filters. And that is sort of the main driving argument that these creators have, is that these ingredients are somehow toxic. Some of them, you know, they claim are cancer-causing themselves. And, you know, among other things, I would say that is probably the most prevalent claim that they make on social media platforms.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And how colorful shall — I always say, hey, are some of these videos or messages getting —\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, as somebody who did quite a deep dive into this topic for Men’s Health, I viewed quite a few of these videos. And obviously, you know, we’re talking about social media here. So you want to get and hold people’s attention. And the more outlandish you are in doing so, the more the algorithm is going to favor you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So you have people setting fire to spray sunscreens to create these sort of — almost look like makeshift torches from \u003cem>The Walking Dead\u003c/em> or something. But, of course, that’s really what it’s about. It’s about capturing people’s attention, and the way that these platforms prioritize that is by being as outlandish as possible.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And from the stats I quoted, they are capturing people’s attention, right? These messages have been convincing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it appears that way. And that was sort of the genesis of this story. I was speaking to some of my friends at some major skin cancer nonprofits, and some of my other contacts at dermatology associations like the American Academy of Dermatology. And both of those organizations were taking sunscreen misinformation on social media platforms very seriously and have launched campaigns to combat some of it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it appears that way. And that was sort of the genesis of this story. I was speaking to some of my friends at some major skin cancer nonprofits, and some of my other contacts at dermatology associations like the American Academy of Dermatology. And both of those organizations were taking sunscreen misinformation on social media platforms very seriously and have launched campaigns to combat some of it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that’s when I realized, that’s what it became — something that I was just seeing on my feed. That’s when it transformed into something that I thought was a bigger story. If these organizations were taking this seriously, then perhaps I, as a journalist, should be taking it seriously. And that is kind of what led me to do this story.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And that’s when I realized, that’s what it became — something that I was just seeing on my feed. That’s when it transformed into something that I thought was a bigger story. If these organizations were taking this seriously, then perhaps I, as a journalist, should be taking it seriously. And that is kind of what led me to do this story.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And which groups do you find that these messages seem to be having the most effect on right now?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And which groups do you find that these messages seem to be having the most effect on right now?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> You know, it’s hard to say, but anecdotally, from diving into this world, a lot of the creators were young men. And that’s kind of why we decided to run this story in Men’s Health. We know that men, I think it’s in the 80 percents, do not use sunscreen daily. And so we know that they are already primed for that message. And so that’s one of the reasons, as I said, that we decided to run this piece in, you know, in Men’s Health in particular.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> You know, it’s hard to say, but anecdotally, from diving into this world, a lot of the creators were young men. And that’s kind of why we decided to run this story in Men’s Health. We know that men, I think it’s in the 80 percents, do not use sunscreen daily. And so we know that they are already primed for that message. And so that’s one of the reasons, as I said, that we decided to run this piece in, you know, in Men’s Health in particular.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, when you hear this, that these messages are having an impact, they’re having an impact among men in particular, and even Gen Z, I understand. You know, what goes through your mind? Does it concern you?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, when you hear this, that these messages are having an impact, they’re having an impact among men in particular, and even Gen Z, I understand. You know, what goes through your mind? Does it concern you?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, because, of course, we know that sunscreen is important to protect us against skin cancer and some of the effects of the sun. I treat a lot of patients with darker skin where sun is really responsible for hyperpigmentation when you’re treating pigmentary disorders. So it’s a really important tool for dermatologists, and it is concerning because it’s an unnecessary fear that we’re seeing on social media, and it’s really not based on a lot of data or science.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, because, of course, we know that sunscreen is important to protect us against skin cancer and some of the effects of the sun. I treat a lot of patients with darker skin where sun is really responsible for hyperpigmentation when you’re treating pigmentary disorders. So it’s a really important tool for dermatologists, and it is concerning because it’s an unnecessary fear that we’re seeing on social media, and it’s really not based on a lot of data or science.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what does the American Academy of Dermatologists sort of recommend when it comes to sunscreen use, or you as a doctor?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what does the American Academy of Dermatologists sort of recommend when it comes to sunscreen use, or you as a doctor?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> So we recommend sunscreen, a minimum of SPF 30, ideally broad spectrum, which means UVA and UVB coverage, daily to exposed areas. And we use sunscreen for different reasons. One reason, as I mentioned, is to prevent skin cancer, especially in people who are at risk for skin cancer with lighter skin tones. And then with people with darker skin tones, we use sunscreen to help manage certain pigmentary disorders, like hyperpigmentation, uneven skin tone.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> So we recommend sunscreen, a minimum of SPF 30, ideally broad spectrum, which means UVA and UVB coverage, daily to exposed areas. And we use sunscreen for different reasons. One reason, as I mentioned, is to prevent skin cancer, especially in people who are at risk for skin cancer with lighter skin tones. And then with people with darker skin tones, we use sunscreen to help manage certain pigmentary disorders, like hyperpigmentation, uneven skin tone.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So it’s a really important tool for dermatologists, and I think it’s important that the public understands that this fear that we see online is not really based on any science.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So it’s a really important tool for dermatologists, and I think it’s important that the public understands that this fear that we see online is not really based on any science.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So FDA-approved sunscreens, you would say, are safe?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So FDA-approved sunscreens, you would say, are safe?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the FDA has stated that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. And so why, then, is there some power to the social media messages, Brian? Because I feel like, you know, I remember, for example, that, you know, there were concerns about oxybenzone or avobenzone, mainly that it can mess with your hormones or that it’s an endocrine disruptor and things like that. So there were things that the FDA, you know, was sort of suggesting in its messaging, there was science that was sort of suggesting — we were coming out of tests and so on. Can you just talk about where some of the believability for the messages of these influencers may have come from?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. And so why, then, is there some power to the social media messages, Brian? Because I feel like, you know, I remember, for example, that, you know, there were concerns about oxybenzone or avobenzone, mainly that it can mess with your hormones or that it’s an endocrine disruptor and things like that. So there were things that the FDA, you know, was sort of suggesting in its messaging, there was science that was sort of suggesting — we were coming out of tests and so on. Can you just talk about where some of the believability for the messages of these influencers may have come from?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, you know, there is some data that shows that certain organic sunscreen filters do have some hormone-related effects. There was a research review, I believe in 2023, that looked at more than 200 studies and found some of that. I think, and that is the data that these anti-sunscreen creators are sort of latching onto.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, you know, there is some data that shows that certain organic sunscreen filters do have some hormone-related effects. There was a research review, I believe in 2023, that looked at more than 200 studies and found some of that. I think, and that is the data that these anti-sunscreen creators are sort of latching onto.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I think what’s really important is that you give that data some context, and that’s what’s not happening on social media. So a lot of that data, the vast majority of that, was conducted in rodents and cell cultures and fish. And it is what Dr. Robert Nelson, who I also interviewed for this story, describes as low-relevance data. So it is really not data that you can extrapolate any conclusion from that would lead you to say that sunscreen is unsafe.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I think what’s really important is that you give that data some context, and that’s what’s not happening on social media. So a lot of that data, the vast majority of that, was conducted in rodents and cell cultures and fish. And it is what Dr. Robert Nelson, who I also interviewed for this story, describes as low-relevance data. So it is really not data that you can extrapolate any conclusion from that would lead you to say that sunscreen is unsafe.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think at the same time, as you mentioned, in 2019, I believe it was, the FDA did a review of sunscreen ingredients and, you know, categorized them differently. So organic and, or chemical, sunscreen filters were Category 3, which means that the FDA was looking for more safety data because they did find that these ingredients were absorbed into the bloodstream at levels higher than what they would have liked to have seen. And I think that caused a lot of confusion.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think at the same time, as you mentioned, in 2019, I believe it was, the FDA did a review of sunscreen ingredients and, you know, categorized them differently. So organic and, or chemical, sunscreen filters were Category 3, which means that the FDA was looking for more safety data because they did find that these ingredients were absorbed into the bloodstream at levels higher than what they would have liked to have seen. And I think that caused a lot of confusion.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, that 2019 study, it specifically states that the conclusion of the study should not lead anyone to not use sunscreen. So that’s very important to know. And there really is decades of data, safety data, on these ingredients from use overseas that I think the FDA is just a little sluggish to adopt as part of its monograph.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, that 2019 study, it specifically states that the conclusion of the study should not lead anyone to not use sunscreen. So that’s very important to know. And there really is decades of data, safety data, on these ingredients from use overseas that I think the FDA is just a little sluggish to adopt as part of its monograph.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think that’s where the confusion came in, because if you’re a consumer and the FDA is telling you, “We need more safety data on these,” but they’re not pulling products from the shelf, I can see why you as a consumer or a creator would be confused by that. But I think it’s really important to understand that in its own conclusion, the FDA says, do not use this data to justify not using sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think that’s where the confusion came in, because if you’re a consumer and the FDA is telling you, “We need more safety data on these,” but they’re not pulling products from the shelf, I can see why you as a consumer or a creator would be confused by that. But I think it’s really important to understand that in its own conclusion, the FDA says, do not use this data to justify not using sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, how do you interpret what came out about oxybenzone? What do you tell your patients as well? And do you agree with what Brian is saying? The FDA and other doctors have told them, which is that this is not a reason to refrain from using sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, how do you interpret what came out about oxybenzone? What do you tell your patients as well? And do you agree with what Brian is saying? The FDA and other doctors have told them, which is that this is not a reason to refrain from using sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, I totally agree with what Brian described so perfectly, which is that the information where a lot of this online interest comes from was this study that was done by the FDA. However, in that study, they concluded that — they stated that sunscreens were safe, including oxybenzone, and it shouldn’t stop people from wearing sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, I totally agree with what Brian described so perfectly, which is that the information where a lot of this online interest comes from was this study that was done by the FDA. However, in that study, they concluded that — they stated that sunscreens were safe, including oxybenzone, and it shouldn’t stop people from wearing sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So in my practice, I absolutely recommend sunscreens to my patients. And I, you know, luckily in my practice, no one has really asked me so much about this. It might be more of a discussion online in certain groups of people, but it hasn’t trickled into people who I see every day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So in my practice, I absolutely recommend sunscreens to my patients. And I, you know, luckily in my practice, no one has really asked me so much about this. It might be more of a discussion online in certain groups of people, but it hasn’t trickled into people who I see every day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But that being said, I feel very comfortable and confident recommending sunscreens for my patients based on the data we have today.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But that being said, I feel very comfortable and confident recommending sunscreens for my patients based on the data we have today.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know, the studies show that oxybenzone could be absorbed into the bloodstream. You’re saying does not mean conclusively that it causes harm?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know, the studies show that oxybenzone could be absorbed into the bloodstream. You’re saying does not mean conclusively that it causes harm?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Correct, because there’s no studies to suggest that. We have decades of research on sunscreens, like real-life human use of sunscreen, and not lab studies done on rodents and on other animals. And it is considered safe. And the FDA has stated that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Correct, because there’s no studies to suggest that. We have decades of research on sunscreens, like real-life human use of sunscreen, and not lab studies done on rodents and on other animals. And it is considered safe. And the FDA has stated that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So it sounds like you’re saying the greater risk really is avoiding sunscreen altogether than the ingredients that have been necessarily singled out. And then you’re talking about these other studies. What are these other studies showing in terms of effectiveness of sunscreen in preventing skin cancer?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So it sounds like you’re saying the greater risk really is avoiding sunscreen altogether than the ingredients that have been necessarily singled out. And then you’re talking about these other studies. What are these other studies showing in terms of effectiveness of sunscreen in preventing skin cancer?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> And actually, I just wanted to mention one other thing because we’re talking a lot about oxybenzone, but interestingly, oxybenzone is not now commonly used in sunscreen. So it used to be a very common sunscreen ingredient. It used to be seen probably in more than 90% of sunscreens, but now it’s actually less frequently used. So even though there’s a lot of discussion about it, it’s not commonly used anymore. So I did want to mention that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> And actually, I just wanted to mention one other thing because we’re talking a lot about oxybenzone, but interestingly, oxybenzone is not now commonly used in sunscreen. So it used to be a very common sunscreen ingredient. It used to be seen probably in more than 90% of sunscreens, but now it’s actually less frequently used. So even though there’s a lot of discussion about it, it’s not commonly used anymore. So I did want to mention that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. An important point that, regardless of whether or not you are worried about it, probably in part because of the bad PR, regardless of the science, it is no longer in as many bottles of sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. An important point that, regardless of whether or not you are worried about it, probably in part because of the bad PR, regardless of the science, it is no longer in as many bottles of sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> That’s correct.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Dr. Heather Woolery-Lloyd, board-certified dermatologist, and Brian Underwood of Men’s Health, who’s written a piece called “The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You.” And you, our listeners, join the conversation at 866-733-6786, at the email address forum@kqed.org, or on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Dr. Heather Woolery-Lloyd, board-certified dermatologist, and Brian Underwood of Men’s Health, who’s written a piece called “The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You.” And you, our listeners, join the conversation at 866-733-6786, at the email address forum@kqed.org, or on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Do you wear sunscreen regularly, listeners? Why or why not? Have you noticed anti-sunscreen influencers in your feeds? You know, do they make you sunscreen-hesitant? Or are the messages concerning to you? Stay with us for more after the break. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Monday, Aug. 31 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are you still wearing sunscreen? There’s been a recent wave of viral TikToks declaring that sunscreen is “toxic,” and they’ve helped ignite an anti-sunscreen movement. With recent surveys showing that millions of Americans are cutting back on sun protection, dermatologists worry that misinformation will lead to higher rates of skin cancer and melanoma. We look at what’s driving “sunscreen hesitancy,” dig into the social media claims and hear how health providers are pushing back against misinformation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood,\u003c/strong> beauty and grooming director of \u003cem>Men’s Health\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Women’s Health\u003c/em> and writer of \u003ca href=\"https://www.menshealth.com/health/a71867310/anti-sunscreen-movement/\">“The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You” \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd,\u003c/strong> board-certified dermatologist and founder of DermFriends\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Some 16 million adults reported reducing or stopping sunscreen use, according to the American Academy of Dermatology’s 2026 Practice Safe Sun Survey, because of online claims about its safety. And a 2024 survey by the Orlando Health Cancer Institute found that one in seven adults under the age of 35 now believes that daily sunscreen use is more harmful to skin than direct sun exposure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This I learned from Brian Underwood’s piece in Men’s Health last month, called “The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You.” In this hour, we take a closer look at the growing influence of sunscreen opponents and what impact it’s had. Underwood is Beauty and Grooming Director of Men’s Health and Women’s Health and joins me now. Brian, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me, Mina.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us is Dr. Heather Woolery-Lloyd, board-certified dermatologist and founder of DermFriends. Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, really glad to have you with us too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Brian, let me start with you. Tell me about some of these claims on social media. What are influencers saying?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, a myriad of things, but I think that some of the researchers that looked into this have found that the number one thing that sort of anti-sunscreen creators are talking about is the toxicity of certain ingredients that they claim are in sunscreens. And this is mainly the organic filters, commonly known as chemical filters. And that is sort of the main driving argument that these creators have, is that these ingredients are somehow toxic. Some of them, you know, they claim are cancer-causing themselves. And, you know, among other things, I would say that is probably the most prevalent claim that they make on social media platforms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And how colorful shall — I always say, hey, are some of these videos or messages getting —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, as somebody who did quite a deep dive into this topic for Men’s Health, I viewed quite a few of these videos. And obviously, you know, we’re talking about social media here. So you want to get and hold people’s attention. And the more outlandish you are in doing so, the more the algorithm is going to favor you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you have people setting fire to spray sunscreens to create these sort of — almost look like makeshift torches from \u003cem>The Walking Dead\u003c/em> or something. But, of course, that’s really what it’s about. It’s about capturing people’s attention, and the way that these platforms prioritize that is by being as outlandish as possible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And from the stats I quoted, they are capturing people’s attention, right? These messages have been convincing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it appears that way. And that was sort of the genesis of this story. I was speaking to some of my friends at some major skin cancer nonprofits, and some of my other contacts at dermatology associations like the American Academy of Dermatology. And both of those organizations were taking sunscreen misinformation on social media platforms very seriously and have launched campaigns to combat some of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that’s when I realized, that’s what it became — something that I was just seeing on my feed. That’s when it transformed into something that I thought was a bigger story. If these organizations were taking this seriously, then perhaps I, as a journalist, should be taking it seriously. And that is kind of what led me to do this story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And which groups do you find that these messages seem to be having the most effect on right now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> You know, it’s hard to say, but anecdotally, from diving into this world, a lot of the creators were young men. And that’s kind of why we decided to run this story in Men’s Health. We know that men, I think it’s in the 80 percents, do not use sunscreen daily. And so we know that they are already primed for that message. And so that’s one of the reasons, as I said, that we decided to run this piece in, you know, in Men’s Health in particular.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, when you hear this, that these messages are having an impact, they’re having an impact among men in particular, and even Gen Z, I understand. You know, what goes through your mind? Does it concern you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, because, of course, we know that sunscreen is important to protect us against skin cancer and some of the effects of the sun. I treat a lot of patients with darker skin where sun is really responsible for hyperpigmentation when you’re treating pigmentary disorders. So it’s a really important tool for dermatologists, and it is concerning because it’s an unnecessary fear that we’re seeing on social media, and it’s really not based on a lot of data or science.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what does the American Academy of Dermatologists sort of recommend when it comes to sunscreen use, or you as a doctor?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> So we recommend sunscreen, a minimum of SPF 30, ideally broad spectrum, which means UVA and UVB coverage, daily to exposed areas. And we use sunscreen for different reasons. One reason, as I mentioned, is to prevent skin cancer, especially in people who are at risk for skin cancer with lighter skin tones. And then with people with darker skin tones, we use sunscreen to help manage certain pigmentary disorders, like hyperpigmentation, uneven skin tone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it’s a really important tool for dermatologists, and I think it’s important that the public understands that this fear that we see online is not really based on any science.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So FDA-approved sunscreens, you would say, are safe?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the FDA has stated that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. And so why, then, is there some power to the social media messages, Brian? Because I feel like, you know, I remember, for example, that, you know, there were concerns about oxybenzone or avobenzone, mainly that it can mess with your hormones or that it’s an endocrine disruptor and things like that. So there were things that the FDA, you know, was sort of suggesting in its messaging, there was science that was sort of suggesting — we were coming out of tests and so on. Can you just talk about where some of the believability for the messages of these influencers may have come from?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, you know, there is some data that shows that certain organic sunscreen filters do have some hormone-related effects. There was a research review, I believe in 2023, that looked at more than 200 studies and found some of that. I think, and that is the data that these anti-sunscreen creators are sort of latching onto.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think what’s really important is that you give that data some context, and that’s what’s not happening on social media. So a lot of that data, the vast majority of that, was conducted in rodents and cell cultures and fish. And it is what Dr. Robert Nelson, who I also interviewed for this story, describes as low-relevance data. So it is really not data that you can extrapolate any conclusion from that would lead you to say that sunscreen is unsafe.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think at the same time, as you mentioned, in 2019, I believe it was, the FDA did a review of sunscreen ingredients and, you know, categorized them differently. So organic and, or chemical, sunscreen filters were Category 3, which means that the FDA was looking for more safety data because they did find that these ingredients were absorbed into the bloodstream at levels higher than what they would have liked to have seen. And I think that caused a lot of confusion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, that 2019 study, it specifically states that the conclusion of the study should not lead anyone to not use sunscreen. So that’s very important to know. And there really is decades of data, safety data, on these ingredients from use overseas that I think the FDA is just a little sluggish to adopt as part of its monograph.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think that’s where the confusion came in, because if you’re a consumer and the FDA is telling you, “We need more safety data on these,” but they’re not pulling products from the shelf, I can see why you as a consumer or a creator would be confused by that. But I think it’s really important to understand that in its own conclusion, the FDA says, do not use this data to justify not using sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, how do you interpret what came out about oxybenzone? What do you tell your patients as well? And do you agree with what Brian is saying? The FDA and other doctors have told them, which is that this is not a reason to refrain from using sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, I totally agree with what Brian described so perfectly, which is that the information where a lot of this online interest comes from was this study that was done by the FDA. However, in that study, they concluded that — they stated that sunscreens were safe, including oxybenzone, and it shouldn’t stop people from wearing sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in my practice, I absolutely recommend sunscreens to my patients. And I, you know, luckily in my practice, no one has really asked me so much about this. It might be more of a discussion online in certain groups of people, but it hasn’t trickled into people who I see every day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that being said, I feel very comfortable and confident recommending sunscreens for my patients based on the data we have today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know, the studies show that oxybenzone could be absorbed into the bloodstream. You’re saying does not mean conclusively that it causes harm?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Correct, because there’s no studies to suggest that. We have decades of research on sunscreens, like real-life human use of sunscreen, and not lab studies done on rodents and on other animals. And it is considered safe. And the FDA has stated that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So it sounds like you’re saying the greater risk really is avoiding sunscreen altogether than the ingredients that have been necessarily singled out. And then you’re talking about these other studies. What are these other studies showing in terms of effectiveness of sunscreen in preventing skin cancer?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> And actually, I just wanted to mention one other thing because we’re talking a lot about oxybenzone, but interestingly, oxybenzone is not now commonly used in sunscreen. So it used to be a very common sunscreen ingredient. It used to be seen probably in more than 90% of sunscreens, but now it’s actually less frequently used. So even though there’s a lot of discussion about it, it’s not commonly used anymore. So I did want to mention that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. An important point that, regardless of whether or not you are worried about it, probably in part because of the bad PR, regardless of the science, it is no longer in as many bottles of sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> That’s correct.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Dr. Heather Woolery-Lloyd, board-certified dermatologist, and Brian Underwood of Men’s Health, who’s written a piece called “The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You.” And you, our listeners, join the conversation at 866-733-6786, at the email address forum@kqed.org, or on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Do you wear sunscreen regularly, listeners? Why or why not? Have you noticed anti-sunscreen influencers in your feeds? You know, do they make you sunscreen-hesitant? Or are the messages concerning to you? Stay with us for more after the break. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Suicide is a leading cause of death in the U.S. for kids aged 10 to 18. And autistic youth are more likely to think about and die from suicide, and at earlier ages, than their neurotypical peers. Conventional mental health interventions are not designed to address the needs of autistic people — and can even worsen their distress, especially among those with elevated cognitive language and daily living abilities. But promising new mental health research could change the tide. We’ll learn more about advances in suicide prevention in autistic and neurodivergent people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>If you or someone you know is struggling with suicidal thoughts, seek help from a professional or call 988. Or text “HOME” to 741741 in the U.S. and Canada to reach the Crisis Text Line.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Related link(s):\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Autism and Suicide Prevention Workgroup’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.autismcrisissupport.com/resources\">resources\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.endurantmovement.org/\">Endurant Movement \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2025-11-20/autistic-kids-are-at-higher-risk-of-suicide-why-dont-their-parents-therapists-and-doctors-know-that\">“Behind his smile, a silent crisis: Parents seek answers after autistic son’s suicide\u003c/a>,” Los Angeles Times\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. We take a closer look this hour at efforts to help address the high rate of suicide among autistic kids and teens. And if anyone you know is struggling with suicidal thoughts, resources include calling 988 or texting the word HOME to 741741.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was only after their son, Anthony, died by suicide in May of 2024 that his parents, Neil and Samara Tricarico, learned about the specific risks facing autistic kids — and how the warning signs can look different from those in non-autistic teens, in ways even attentive parents can miss.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, the Tricaricos are determined to help others understand that missing piece through a nonprofit they founded called the Endurant Movement. Neil and Samara join me now. Thank you both for joining us. I really appreciate it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neil Tricarico:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you, Mina. Thank you for having us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And welcome to you as well, Samara. Thank you. I’d love to start by hearing more about Anthony. He sounded so oriented toward helping others.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samara Tricario:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, he really was. Anthony was a bright light in everyone’s life that he had the opportunity to connect with — especially his friends. He was caring, giving, and often, if not always, put others’ needs before his own.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And Samara, I understand that Anthony did have a large friend group, but that he worked hard to mask his autism?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samara Tricarico:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I mean, he really — I would say — studied and became an expert in social behavior, so much so that he presented in a way that made it seem like everything was great and going really well. He was almost disguising his autism. Many of his friends had no idea, because he really leaned into understanding societal norms and what was expected, and presented himself that way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. He was diagnosed at seven — is that right? And with all the interventions you were able to provide, at what point did he say he didn’t want those services any longer?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samara Tricarico:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. He went to a Montessori charter school that ended at sixth grade and had a middle school program. As he was transitioning out of elementary school and into middle school, he tested out of his IEP and tested out of ABA therapy. He met all the measurements — all the checkboxes — and didn’t want to receive services or special treatment any longer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So in middle school, some of his friends knew him. But when he went on to high school, it was a fresh start — no concessions, no help.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So then, Neil, when Anthony came to the two of you with suicidal thoughts, you did all the things parents are told to do. How did you respond?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neil Tricarico:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. Initially, he hadn’t actually come to us. Thank God he shared with his best friend, who shared with his mom, and then his mom shared with us. That opened up the dialogue with Anthony.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And honestly, it was out of body. You hear those words, you know you’re having these conversations, but I felt like I was outside my body as it was happening. We did whatever we were told. We called 988. People came out. We met with counselors and followed where we were being led.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And essentially, it sounds like the counselors determined that since Anthony didn’t have a plan, he wasn’t at immediate risk?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samara Tricarico:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. In retrospect, we noticed a seasonal pattern — spring, a time of change, was very difficult for him. The first time was freshman year, when he went to his friend’s mom. Sophomore year, he came to us directly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When the county crisis intervention teams evaluated him, they said he didn’t have a plan. They recommended therapy and self-care — which he was already very good at. That wasn’t especially helpful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also had a therapist evaluation, and again, he didn’t articulate a plan. At that point, Anthony was convinced he needed help and hoped to get it in some sort of facility. We fought tooth and nail to get him into one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, it didn’t serve him well. They didn’t have a normal bed for him, so they placed him in solitary confinement. It ended up imploding the other way — taking away hope. When he came out, he was so relieved just to have fresh air. He said he’d never go to a place like that again. It really didn’t help him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Neil and Samara Tricarico, founders of the Endurant Movement and parents of Anthony Tricarico, who died in 2024. Neil, how did you learn that the recommendations you were receiving — the treatments, the inpatient experience — were so different from what experts were learning about autistic kids struggling with suicide?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neil Tricarico:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What was confusing is that when we spoke with autism experts who had helped us through Anthony’s childhood, they didn’t have experience with mental health or suicidality. Then on the mental health side, when we shared that Anthony was autistic, we were told there were no special protocols.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So autism didn’t address suicide, and mental health didn’t address autism. It wasn’t until a few weeks after Anthony passed that an acquaintance reached out on Facebook and asked to speak with me. She shared statistics showing that kids ages 12 to 18 on the spectrum are nearly 30% more likely to die by suicide. My wife and I nearly fell out of our seats.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That started this journey — including learning from a psychiatrist, Dr. Gupta, in Pittsburgh — about approaches that were actually helping.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What are you hoping to achieve through the Endurant Movement?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neil Tricarico:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When we learned those statistics and about the work being done in the U.K. and by Dr. Gupta, it became a moral obligation to help families facing what we faced. To make them aware that there are approaches helping teens and families through this — and that lives are being saved.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samara Tricarico:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I’d add that while it’s a scary conversation and the statistics are frightening, as a parent of an autistic child, I would have wanted to know.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neil Tricarico:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Throughout the diagnostic process and services, we were prepared for challenges like bullying or difficulty making friends. In Anthony’s case, we were fortunate those didn’t happen. But never once was suicide discussed as a risk.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And Samara, it sounds like you’re also saying it’s okay — even important — to talk directly about suicide?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samara Tricarico:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Absolutely. Anthony wanted and craved authentic conversation. It scared me deeply, but it was important. Having the strength to educate yourself and speak directly — it could save your child’s life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re coming up on a break, but Neil, is there anything else you’d want to tell parents of autistic kids who may be expressing suicidal thoughts?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neil Tricarico:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Keep your eyes, heart, and ears open. And remember: when we use the word disorder, we emphasize that something is wrong and needs fixing. Instead, we should help kids understand neurodiversity — like having blue eyes or brown eyes — and help them find their strengths, their tribes, their superheroes. This work is simple, common sense, and deeply important.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Suicide is a leading cause of death in the U.S. for kids aged 10 to 18. And autistic youth are more likely to think about and die from suicide, and at earlier ages, than their neurotypical peers. Conventional mental health interventions are not designed to address the needs of autistic people — and can even worsen their distress, especially among those with elevated cognitive language and daily living abilities. But promising new mental health research could change the tide. We’ll learn more about advances in suicide prevention in autistic and neurodivergent people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>If you or someone you know is struggling with suicidal thoughts, seek help from a professional or call 988. Or text “HOME” to 741741 in the U.S. and Canada to reach the Crisis Text Line.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Related link(s):\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Autism and Suicide Prevention Workgroup’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.autismcrisissupport.com/resources\">resources\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.endurantmovement.org/\">Endurant Movement \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2025-11-20/autistic-kids-are-at-higher-risk-of-suicide-why-dont-their-parents-therapists-and-doctors-know-that\">“Behind his smile, a silent crisis: Parents seek answers after autistic son’s suicide\u003c/a>,” Los Angeles Times\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. We take a closer look this hour at efforts to help address the high rate of suicide among autistic kids and teens. And if anyone you know is struggling with suicidal thoughts, resources include calling 988 or texting the word HOME to 741741.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was only after their son, Anthony, died by suicide in May of 2024 that his parents, Neil and Samara Tricarico, learned about the specific risks facing autistic kids — and how the warning signs can look different from those in non-autistic teens, in ways even attentive parents can miss.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, the Tricaricos are determined to help others understand that missing piece through a nonprofit they founded called the Endurant Movement. Neil and Samara join me now. Thank you both for joining us. I really appreciate it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neil Tricarico:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you, Mina. Thank you for having us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And welcome to you as well, Samara. Thank you. I’d love to start by hearing more about Anthony. He sounded so oriented toward helping others.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samara Tricario:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, he really was. Anthony was a bright light in everyone’s life that he had the opportunity to connect with — especially his friends. He was caring, giving, and often, if not always, put others’ needs before his own.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And Samara, I understand that Anthony did have a large friend group, but that he worked hard to mask his autism?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samara Tricarico:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I mean, he really — I would say — studied and became an expert in social behavior, so much so that he presented in a way that made it seem like everything was great and going really well. He was almost disguising his autism. Many of his friends had no idea, because he really leaned into understanding societal norms and what was expected, and presented himself that way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. He was diagnosed at seven — is that right? And with all the interventions you were able to provide, at what point did he say he didn’t want those services any longer?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samara Tricarico:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. He went to a Montessori charter school that ended at sixth grade and had a middle school program. As he was transitioning out of elementary school and into middle school, he tested out of his IEP and tested out of ABA therapy. He met all the measurements — all the checkboxes — and didn’t want to receive services or special treatment any longer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So in middle school, some of his friends knew him. But when he went on to high school, it was a fresh start — no concessions, no help.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So then, Neil, when Anthony came to the two of you with suicidal thoughts, you did all the things parents are told to do. How did you respond?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neil Tricarico:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. Initially, he hadn’t actually come to us. Thank God he shared with his best friend, who shared with his mom, and then his mom shared with us. That opened up the dialogue with Anthony.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And honestly, it was out of body. You hear those words, you know you’re having these conversations, but I felt like I was outside my body as it was happening. We did whatever we were told. We called 988. People came out. We met with counselors and followed where we were being led.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And essentially, it sounds like the counselors determined that since Anthony didn’t have a plan, he wasn’t at immediate risk?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samara Tricarico:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. In retrospect, we noticed a seasonal pattern — spring, a time of change, was very difficult for him. The first time was freshman year, when he went to his friend’s mom. Sophomore year, he came to us directly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When the county crisis intervention teams evaluated him, they said he didn’t have a plan. They recommended therapy and self-care — which he was already very good at. That wasn’t especially helpful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also had a therapist evaluation, and again, he didn’t articulate a plan. At that point, Anthony was convinced he needed help and hoped to get it in some sort of facility. We fought tooth and nail to get him into one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, it didn’t serve him well. They didn’t have a normal bed for him, so they placed him in solitary confinement. It ended up imploding the other way — taking away hope. When he came out, he was so relieved just to have fresh air. He said he’d never go to a place like that again. It really didn’t help him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Neil and Samara Tricarico, founders of the Endurant Movement and parents of Anthony Tricarico, who died in 2024. Neil, how did you learn that the recommendations you were receiving — the treatments, the inpatient experience — were so different from what experts were learning about autistic kids struggling with suicide?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neil Tricarico:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What was confusing is that when we spoke with autism experts who had helped us through Anthony’s childhood, they didn’t have experience with mental health or suicidality. Then on the mental health side, when we shared that Anthony was autistic, we were told there were no special protocols.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So autism didn’t address suicide, and mental health didn’t address autism. It wasn’t until a few weeks after Anthony passed that an acquaintance reached out on Facebook and asked to speak with me. She shared statistics showing that kids ages 12 to 18 on the spectrum are nearly 30% more likely to die by suicide. My wife and I nearly fell out of our seats.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That started this journey — including learning from a psychiatrist, Dr. Gupta, in Pittsburgh — about approaches that were actually helping.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What are you hoping to achieve through the Endurant Movement?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neil Tricarico:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When we learned those statistics and about the work being done in the U.K. and by Dr. Gupta, it became a moral obligation to help families facing what we faced. To make them aware that there are approaches helping teens and families through this — and that lives are being saved.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samara Tricarico:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I’d add that while it’s a scary conversation and the statistics are frightening, as a parent of an autistic child, I would have wanted to know.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neil Tricarico:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Throughout the diagnostic process and services, we were prepared for challenges like bullying or difficulty making friends. In Anthony’s case, we were fortunate those didn’t happen. But never once was suicide discussed as a risk.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And Samara, it sounds like you’re also saying it’s okay — even important — to talk directly about suicide?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samara Tricarico:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Absolutely. Anthony wanted and craved authentic conversation. It scared me deeply, but it was important. Having the strength to educate yourself and speak directly — it could save your child’s life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re coming up on a break, but Neil, is there anything else you’d want to tell parents of autistic kids who may be expressing suicidal thoughts?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Neil Tricarico:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Keep your eyes, heart, and ears open. And remember: when we use the word disorder, we emphasize that something is wrong and needs fixing. Instead, we should help kids understand neurodiversity — like having blue eyes or brown eyes — and help them find their strengths, their tribes, their superheroes. This work is simple, common sense, and deeply important.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nearly eight years ago, journalist Shoshana Walter followed a lead on a drug and alcohol rehab program that put patients to work at a chicken plant. What she found was one of many programs that boasted treatment and recovery, but actually profited off the unpaid labor of people struggling with addiction. In her new book, “Rehab: An American Scandal”, Walter continues to interrogate America’s drug treatment system by following four people navigating an industry that not only kept patients stuck in a cycle of addiction and relapse, but that actually stymied their recovery. We’ll talk through the dark side of the rehab industry, what this book reveals about the ways patients are exploited for profit, and who actually has a chance at recovery in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV8VaYVH268\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"294\" data-end=\"357\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"294\" data-end=\"314\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"326\" data-end=\"333\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"359\" data-end=\"777\">In the mornings, walking from BART across the Mission to the station, I often wonder about the lives of the people I pass doing drugs on Capp Street and in the alleyways of the neighborhood. Sure, they’ve made bad choices, and they impose costs on everybody else in the city. But how can it be that our region, our state, our country cannot help people — even after one million Americans have died of drug overdoses?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"779\" data-end=\"1019\">The failure is so profound that I think a lot of us have developed some ethical loopholes about people suffering from addiction. They’re lost to us. No treatment works. When someone goes down that road, it’s too late — etcetera, etcetera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1021\" data-end=\"1373\">But one thing that Shoshana Walter’s book irrefutably shows is that when it comes to addiction treatment — when it comes to helping people who want help — we’re just failing people horribly, up and down the socioeconomic ladder, but especially those at the bottom. And even worse, a small number of people are profiting off exploiting the vulnerable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1375\" data-end=\"1574\">Here to share more about her book, \u003cem data-start=\"1410\" data-end=\"1438\">Rehab: An American Scandal\u003c/em> — and the reporting that informed it — we’re joined by Shoshana Walter, an investigative reporter with The Marshall Project. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1576\" data-end=\"1636\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1576\" data-end=\"1596\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1638\" data-end=\"1989\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1638\" data-end=\"1658\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, the narrative I’ve had in my head about drug treatment in this country is that because the opioid epidemic hit a broader swath of American society than crack before it, our country decided to take a gentler, more treatment-based approach to drug addiction. But your book shows that we didn’t really do that. What went wrong?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1991\" data-end=\"2254\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1991\" data-end=\"2011\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, exactly like you said — during the crack cocaine epidemic, our country’s approach to drug addiction was to criminalize and punish, and that led to mass incarceration of drug users, disproportionately Black and Brown Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2256\" data-end=\"2545\">Then the opioid epidemic came around. It was more of a pain pill epidemic, mostly affecting white communities. And so there was this major transformation — a well-intended transformation — and a widespread acknowledgment that addiction is a disease, worthy of medical care and treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2547\" data-end=\"2845\">Over the past twenty-five years, we’ve seen an enormous expansion of our treatment system — first, with the launch of Suboxone, the gold-standard addiction treatment medication, in 2002. And then with the Affordable Care Act, millions more Americans suddenly had coverage for addiction treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2847\" data-end=\"3144\">But the system is really not working the way it was intended. A lot of the issues I lay out in the book have to do with people still being punished for their addictions — being sent to treatment programs that assign them to unpaid labor jobs working for some of the largest companies in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3146\" data-end=\"3564\">We have medication-assisted treatment like Suboxone that’s still hard for patients to access — many doctors don’t want to prescribe it. And then we have insurance-funded, 30-day inpatient programs that people come out of and then relapse. We now know that someone who completes a 30-day treatment program is actually more likely to overdose and die in the year after treatment than someone who doesn’t finish at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3566\" data-end=\"3706\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3566\" data-end=\"3586\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Which is — I mean — the exact opposite of what one might expect. Treatment is supposed to make you better, not worse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3708\" data-end=\"3962\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3708\" data-end=\"3728\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Right. Exactly. And even the best-intentioned treatment programs are often frustrated with this limitation imposed by insurance companies. Some treatment programs have taken advantage of it and made it part of their business model.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3964\" data-end=\"4190\">There was one treatment company owner I interviewed who admitted they were overmedicating patients to the point of impairment, contributing to overdose deaths in their own program. Even he was frustrated by the 30-day limit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4192\" data-end=\"4393\">He called it a “cycler.” His company had staff call people who left their 30-day program to find out if they’d relapsed — and if they had, especially if they had good insurance, they’d reenroll them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4395\" data-end=\"4434\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4395\" data-end=\"4415\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Bring them back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4436\" data-end=\"4500\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4436\" data-end=\"4456\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Exactly. It was just a cycle, in and out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4502\" data-end=\"4766\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4502\" data-end=\"4522\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re going to go deeper into all these issues — Suboxone, different types of rehab centers, and why some of them don’t seem to work, or work in ways that seem cruel and unusual to me. But let’s talk about how you got into writing this book.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4768\" data-end=\"4985\">Eight years ago, you started looking into some of these treatment centers, and you found people working — as part of their drug treatment, for some reason — in a chicken processing facility? Tell us more about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4987\" data-end=\"5217\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4987\" data-end=\"5007\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I was a reporter at \u003cem data-start=\"5034\" data-end=\"5042\">Reveal\u003c/em> from the Center for Investigative Reporting at the time, and I stumbled across a program that a lot of drug courts and diversion courts in Oklahoma and Arkansas were using.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5219\" data-end=\"5629\">These were people who were supposed to be receiving addiction treatment instead of incarceration. It sounded great. But when I looked into it, I discovered the rehab program was founded by former poultry industry executives. Participants were sent to work unpaid at chicken processing plants, making products for KFC, Popeyes, Walmart, PetSmart, Rachael Ray Nutrish — products almost every American consumes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5631\" data-end=\"5700\">That unpaid labor was predominantly their sole form of “treatment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5702\" data-end=\"5971\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5702\" data-end=\"5722\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And in your book, you trace some of this to a company called Cenikor, which one of the main characters in the book goes through. Where did they come from, and where did this idea — that putting people to work with minimal counseling — might work?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5973\" data-end=\"6262\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5973\" data-end=\"5993\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Cenikor’s model came from a program called Synanon, founded in 1958 by a former oil salesman who struggled with alcoholism. He had tried AA and hated it because he felt people relapsed and lied in meetings. He didn’t want to let himself or others get away with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6264\" data-end=\"6311\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6264\" data-end=\"6284\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Tougher love was needed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6313\" data-end=\"6685\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6313\" data-end=\"6333\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Exactly. This became the precursor to rehab in the United States. It started as a community where people called each other out — yelling, confronting, holding each other accountable. Over time, it grew into recovery communities across the U.S., including in the Bay Area, where participants lived and worked, funding the program through unpaid jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6687\" data-end=\"6813\">They also used what was later called “attack therapy” — or “the game” — circles where people verbally confronted each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6815\" data-end=\"7153\">Synanon gained popularity in the ’60s and ’70s, and its model was adopted by programs like the Cenikor Foundation. Eventually, Synanon became cult-like — the founder enriched himself, ordered vasectomies, mandated shaved heads, and forced marriages. It went off the rails, but it showed how a work-based model could become exploitative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7155\" data-end=\"7358\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7155\" data-end=\"7175\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> On the face of it, it seems a little crazy. But for some people, did it work? Did they become the biggest advocates — saying, “Look at me, it worked for me, it could work for you”?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7360\" data-end=\"7513\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7360\" data-end=\"7380\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think so. There’s something compelling about stories of people entering a program and completely transforming their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7515\" data-end=\"7839\">One former Synanon participant told my colleague at \u003cem data-start=\"7567\" data-end=\"7575\">Reveal\u003c/em>: “We brainwashed people — because their brains are dirty.” But many stayed in these programs for years, left, and relapsed. That’s a very common theme in U.S. treatment models — people do well while they’re in the program, but once they leave, it stops working.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7841\" data-end=\"7968\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7841\" data-end=\"7861\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Is there anything to the idea that once people are deeply addicted to drugs, there’s not much we can do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7970\" data-end=\"8150\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7970\" data-end=\"7990\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> No — I think there’s so much we can do to help people recover. Many people recover over time, even without treatment. People age, grow, and naturally change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8152\" data-end=\"8435\">The problem with our drug policies is that the longer someone is in addiction, the more marginalized they become, and the harder it is to recover — because they’re lacking the things needed for long-term recovery: housing, jobs, financial resources, social support, transportation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8437\" data-end=\"8540\">Without these, sustaining recovery is much harder. And there are other barriers I detail in the book.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8542\" data-end=\"8603\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8542\" data-end=\"8562\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> You call it “recovery capital,” right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8605\" data-end=\"8871\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8605\" data-end=\"8625\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Yes. Researchers told me how important recovery capital is — the resources that help people envision and achieve change: community, housing, transportation, food, financial security. Without these, relapse is almost inevitable after treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8873\" data-end=\"9129\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8873\" data-end=\"8893\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about America’s drug treatment system and the rehab and addiction recovery industry. We’re joined by Shoshana Walter, author of \u003cem data-start=\"9036\" data-end=\"9064\">Rehab: An American Scandal\u003c/em>. She’s now an investigative reporter for The Marshall Project.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9131\" data-end=\"9369\">We want to hear from you — have you had experiences with the rehab industry as a patient or a provider? What was your experience? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. You can also email us at \u003ca class=\"cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"9318\" data-end=\"9332\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. We’re on social media @kqedforum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9371\" data-end=\"9440\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. We’ll be back with more right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"294\" data-end=\"357\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"294\" data-end=\"314\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"326\" data-end=\"333\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"359\" data-end=\"777\">In the mornings, walking from BART across the Mission to the station, I often wonder about the lives of the people I pass doing drugs on Capp Street and in the alleyways of the neighborhood. Sure, they’ve made bad choices, and they impose costs on everybody else in the city. But how can it be that our region, our state, our country cannot help people — even after one million Americans have died of drug overdoses?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"779\" data-end=\"1019\">The failure is so profound that I think a lot of us have developed some ethical loopholes about people suffering from addiction. They’re lost to us. No treatment works. When someone goes down that road, it’s too late — etcetera, etcetera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1021\" data-end=\"1373\">But one thing that Shoshana Walter’s book irrefutably shows is that when it comes to addiction treatment — when it comes to helping people who want help — we’re just failing people horribly, up and down the socioeconomic ladder, but especially those at the bottom. And even worse, a small number of people are profiting off exploiting the vulnerable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1375\" data-end=\"1574\">Here to share more about her book, \u003cem data-start=\"1410\" data-end=\"1438\">Rehab: An American Scandal\u003c/em> — and the reporting that informed it — we’re joined by Shoshana Walter, an investigative reporter with The Marshall Project. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1576\" data-end=\"1636\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1576\" data-end=\"1596\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1638\" data-end=\"1989\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1638\" data-end=\"1658\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, the narrative I’ve had in my head about drug treatment in this country is that because the opioid epidemic hit a broader swath of American society than crack before it, our country decided to take a gentler, more treatment-based approach to drug addiction. But your book shows that we didn’t really do that. What went wrong?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1991\" data-end=\"2254\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1991\" data-end=\"2011\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, exactly like you said — during the crack cocaine epidemic, our country’s approach to drug addiction was to criminalize and punish, and that led to mass incarceration of drug users, disproportionately Black and Brown Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2256\" data-end=\"2545\">Then the opioid epidemic came around. It was more of a pain pill epidemic, mostly affecting white communities. And so there was this major transformation — a well-intended transformation — and a widespread acknowledgment that addiction is a disease, worthy of medical care and treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2547\" data-end=\"2845\">Over the past twenty-five years, we’ve seen an enormous expansion of our treatment system — first, with the launch of Suboxone, the gold-standard addiction treatment medication, in 2002. And then with the Affordable Care Act, millions more Americans suddenly had coverage for addiction treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2847\" data-end=\"3144\">But the system is really not working the way it was intended. A lot of the issues I lay out in the book have to do with people still being punished for their addictions — being sent to treatment programs that assign them to unpaid labor jobs working for some of the largest companies in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3146\" data-end=\"3564\">We have medication-assisted treatment like Suboxone that’s still hard for patients to access — many doctors don’t want to prescribe it. And then we have insurance-funded, 30-day inpatient programs that people come out of and then relapse. We now know that someone who completes a 30-day treatment program is actually more likely to overdose and die in the year after treatment than someone who doesn’t finish at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3566\" data-end=\"3706\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3566\" data-end=\"3586\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Which is — I mean — the exact opposite of what one might expect. Treatment is supposed to make you better, not worse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3708\" data-end=\"3962\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3708\" data-end=\"3728\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Right. Exactly. And even the best-intentioned treatment programs are often frustrated with this limitation imposed by insurance companies. Some treatment programs have taken advantage of it and made it part of their business model.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3964\" data-end=\"4190\">There was one treatment company owner I interviewed who admitted they were overmedicating patients to the point of impairment, contributing to overdose deaths in their own program. Even he was frustrated by the 30-day limit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4192\" data-end=\"4393\">He called it a “cycler.” His company had staff call people who left their 30-day program to find out if they’d relapsed — and if they had, especially if they had good insurance, they’d reenroll them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4395\" data-end=\"4434\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4395\" data-end=\"4415\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Bring them back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4436\" data-end=\"4500\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4436\" data-end=\"4456\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Exactly. It was just a cycle, in and out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4502\" data-end=\"4766\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4502\" data-end=\"4522\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re going to go deeper into all these issues — Suboxone, different types of rehab centers, and why some of them don’t seem to work, or work in ways that seem cruel and unusual to me. But let’s talk about how you got into writing this book.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4768\" data-end=\"4985\">Eight years ago, you started looking into some of these treatment centers, and you found people working — as part of their drug treatment, for some reason — in a chicken processing facility? Tell us more about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4987\" data-end=\"5217\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4987\" data-end=\"5007\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I was a reporter at \u003cem data-start=\"5034\" data-end=\"5042\">Reveal\u003c/em> from the Center for Investigative Reporting at the time, and I stumbled across a program that a lot of drug courts and diversion courts in Oklahoma and Arkansas were using.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5219\" data-end=\"5629\">These were people who were supposed to be receiving addiction treatment instead of incarceration. It sounded great. But when I looked into it, I discovered the rehab program was founded by former poultry industry executives. Participants were sent to work unpaid at chicken processing plants, making products for KFC, Popeyes, Walmart, PetSmart, Rachael Ray Nutrish — products almost every American consumes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5631\" data-end=\"5700\">That unpaid labor was predominantly their sole form of “treatment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5702\" data-end=\"5971\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5702\" data-end=\"5722\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And in your book, you trace some of this to a company called Cenikor, which one of the main characters in the book goes through. Where did they come from, and where did this idea — that putting people to work with minimal counseling — might work?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5973\" data-end=\"6262\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5973\" data-end=\"5993\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Cenikor’s model came from a program called Synanon, founded in 1958 by a former oil salesman who struggled with alcoholism. He had tried AA and hated it because he felt people relapsed and lied in meetings. He didn’t want to let himself or others get away with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6264\" data-end=\"6311\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6264\" data-end=\"6284\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Tougher love was needed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6313\" data-end=\"6685\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6313\" data-end=\"6333\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Exactly. This became the precursor to rehab in the United States. It started as a community where people called each other out — yelling, confronting, holding each other accountable. Over time, it grew into recovery communities across the U.S., including in the Bay Area, where participants lived and worked, funding the program through unpaid jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6687\" data-end=\"6813\">They also used what was later called “attack therapy” — or “the game” — circles where people verbally confronted each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6815\" data-end=\"7153\">Synanon gained popularity in the ’60s and ’70s, and its model was adopted by programs like the Cenikor Foundation. Eventually, Synanon became cult-like — the founder enriched himself, ordered vasectomies, mandated shaved heads, and forced marriages. It went off the rails, but it showed how a work-based model could become exploitative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7155\" data-end=\"7358\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7155\" data-end=\"7175\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> On the face of it, it seems a little crazy. But for some people, did it work? Did they become the biggest advocates — saying, “Look at me, it worked for me, it could work for you”?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7360\" data-end=\"7513\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7360\" data-end=\"7380\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think so. There’s something compelling about stories of people entering a program and completely transforming their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7515\" data-end=\"7839\">One former Synanon participant told my colleague at \u003cem data-start=\"7567\" data-end=\"7575\">Reveal\u003c/em>: “We brainwashed people — because their brains are dirty.” But many stayed in these programs for years, left, and relapsed. That’s a very common theme in U.S. treatment models — people do well while they’re in the program, but once they leave, it stops working.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7841\" data-end=\"7968\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7841\" data-end=\"7861\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Is there anything to the idea that once people are deeply addicted to drugs, there’s not much we can do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7970\" data-end=\"8150\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7970\" data-end=\"7990\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> No — I think there’s so much we can do to help people recover. Many people recover over time, even without treatment. People age, grow, and naturally change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8152\" data-end=\"8435\">The problem with our drug policies is that the longer someone is in addiction, the more marginalized they become, and the harder it is to recover — because they’re lacking the things needed for long-term recovery: housing, jobs, financial resources, social support, transportation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8437\" data-end=\"8540\">Without these, sustaining recovery is much harder. And there are other barriers I detail in the book.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8542\" data-end=\"8603\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8542\" data-end=\"8562\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> You call it “recovery capital,” right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8605\" data-end=\"8871\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8605\" data-end=\"8625\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Yes. Researchers told me how important recovery capital is — the resources that help people envision and achieve change: community, housing, transportation, food, financial security. Without these, relapse is almost inevitable after treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8873\" data-end=\"9129\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8873\" data-end=\"8893\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about America’s drug treatment system and the rehab and addiction recovery industry. We’re joined by Shoshana Walter, author of \u003cem data-start=\"9036\" data-end=\"9064\">Rehab: An American Scandal\u003c/em>. She’s now an investigative reporter for The Marshall Project.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9131\" data-end=\"9369\">We want to hear from you — have you had experiences with the rehab industry as a patient or a provider? What was your experience? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. You can also email us at \u003ca class=\"cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"9318\" data-end=\"9332\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. We’re on social media @kqedforum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9371\" data-end=\"9440\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. We’ll be back with more right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Do your seasonal allergies feel worse this spring? You might not be imagining it: climate change is hastening the end of winter, pushing up pollen production and intensifying winds that spread allergens around. We’ll talk about the science of seasonal allergies, learn why some of us are more vulnerable to them than others and hear how to get relief from all the sniffing, scratching and sneezing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Show Highlights\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"text-decoration: underline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Climate Change and Worsening Allergies\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Sindher notes that allergy sufferers today are experiencing markedly worse symptoms. “It definitely feels more severe—stronger reactions, more people affected,” she says. A 2022 study in Frontiers in Allergy directly links this spike in oak and ragweed pollen to rising temperatures and elevated CO₂ levels.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Garcia-Laurette agrees that allergies have climbed steadily over the past four decades. “There’s no doubt respiratory and food allergies are on the rise,” she says. Climate change lengthens flowering and pollen seasons, and the evidence is clear.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"text-decoration: underline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Allergy Symptoms and Distinguishing from Colds\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Garcia-Laurette points out that you can often tell allergies from a cold by when they occur and how you respond to treatment: allergies typically don’t cause true fevers, may only bring on mild aches, and will improve with antihistamines—whereas colds, especially during flu season, often include real fevers and won’t get better with standard allergy meds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Sindher recommends tracking your personal triggers and local pollen counts so you can begin your allergy treatment regimen before symptoms reach their worst.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"text-decoration: underline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Understanding the Allergic Response\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Sindher describes how an allergic reaction unfolds. Our bodies produce allergen-specific Immunoglobulin E (IgE) antibodies that bind to mast cells. When pollen—or another trigger—crosses our path, it attaches to those antibodies on the mast cells, which then release preformed mediators like histamine and tryptase, sparking the inflammation we recognize as allergy symptoms.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Garcia-Laurette says that IgE is the central “bad actor” in allergic responses. She explains that the biologic drug omalizumab works by preventing IgE from binding to mast cells, thereby blocking the cascade that leads to histamine release and allergic inflammation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"text-decoration: underline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Treatment Options: Medications and Strategies\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Sindher emphasizes readily available medications and simple adjuncts for symptom relief: over-the-counter antihistamines like loratadine (Claritin), cetirizine (Zyrtec), and fexofenadine (Allegra) form the backbone of treatment, and can be paired with saline rinses or a neti pot. She also recommends low-dose steroid nasal sprays to reduce the inflammation and swelling in the nasal passages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When it comes to children, Dr. Garcia-Laurette advises striking the right balance: use enough medication to keep symptoms controlled but avoid over-medicating, with the aim of preventing more serious, life-disrupting complications down the line.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the prevention front, Dr. Sindher suggests minimizing exposure whenever possible. If you need to be outside during high-pollen days, consider wearing an N95 or KN95 mask; at home, keep windows shut, run air purifiers, and ensure your air-conditioning filters are regularly changed to reduce indoor allergen levels.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"text-decoration: underline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emerging Treatments and Research\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Garcia-Laurette highlights a new class of “biologic” therapies—large, engineered antibodies that selectively target specific drivers of the allergic cascade. One example, dupilumab, interrupts key signaling pathways responsible for IgE production, effectively cutting off the supply of the antibody that fuels allergic reactions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Sindher adds that omalizumab, originally approved for asthma and now for food allergies, works by binding circulating IgE and clearing it from the bloodstream. 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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Do your seasonal allergies feel worse this spring? You might not be imagining it: climate change is hastening the end of winter, pushing up pollen production and intensifying winds that spread allergens around. We’ll talk about the science of seasonal allergies, learn why some of us are more vulnerable to them than others and hear how to get relief from all the sniffing, scratching and sneezing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Show Highlights\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"text-decoration: underline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Climate Change and Worsening Allergies\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Sindher notes that allergy sufferers today are experiencing markedly worse symptoms. “It definitely feels more severe—stronger reactions, more people affected,” she says. A 2022 study in Frontiers in Allergy directly links this spike in oak and ragweed pollen to rising temperatures and elevated CO₂ levels.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Garcia-Laurette agrees that allergies have climbed steadily over the past four decades. “There’s no doubt respiratory and food allergies are on the rise,” she says. Climate change lengthens flowering and pollen seasons, and the evidence is clear.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"text-decoration: underline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Allergy Symptoms and Distinguishing from Colds\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Garcia-Laurette points out that you can often tell allergies from a cold by when they occur and how you respond to treatment: allergies typically don’t cause true fevers, may only bring on mild aches, and will improve with antihistamines—whereas colds, especially during flu season, often include real fevers and won’t get better with standard allergy meds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Sindher recommends tracking your personal triggers and local pollen counts so you can begin your allergy treatment regimen before symptoms reach their worst.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"text-decoration: underline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Understanding the Allergic Response\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Sindher describes how an allergic reaction unfolds. 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She explains that the biologic drug omalizumab works by preventing IgE from binding to mast cells, thereby blocking the cascade that leads to histamine release and allergic inflammation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"text-decoration: underline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Treatment Options: Medications and Strategies\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Sindher emphasizes readily available medications and simple adjuncts for symptom relief: over-the-counter antihistamines like loratadine (Claritin), cetirizine (Zyrtec), and fexofenadine (Allegra) form the backbone of treatment, and can be paired with saline rinses or a neti pot. She also recommends low-dose steroid nasal sprays to reduce the inflammation and swelling in the nasal passages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When it comes to children, Dr. Garcia-Laurette advises striking the right balance: use enough medication to keep symptoms controlled but avoid over-medicating, with the aim of preventing more serious, life-disrupting complications down the line.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the prevention front, Dr. Sindher suggests minimizing exposure whenever possible. If you need to be outside during high-pollen days, consider wearing an N95 or KN95 mask; at home, keep windows shut, run air purifiers, and ensure your air-conditioning filters are regularly changed to reduce indoor allergen levels.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"text-decoration: underline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emerging Treatments and Research\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Garcia-Laurette highlights a new class of “biologic” therapies—large, engineered antibodies that selectively target specific drivers of the allergic cascade. One example, dupilumab, interrupts key signaling pathways responsible for IgE production, effectively cutting off the supply of the antibody that fuels allergic reactions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Sindher adds that omalizumab, originally approved for asthma and now for food allergies, works by binding circulating IgE and clearing it from the bloodstream. 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"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
"airtime": "SUN 9pm-10pm",
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"meta": {
"site": "radio",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
"airtime": "THU 10pm, FRI 1am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.commonwealthclub.org/podcasts",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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}
},
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"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"id": "freakonomics-radio",
"title": "Freakonomics Radio",
"info": "Freakonomics Radio is a one-hour award-winning podcast and public-radio project hosted by Stephen Dubner, with co-author Steve Levitt as a regular guest. It is produced in partnership with WNYC.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/freakonomicsRadio.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
"subscribe": {
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
"rss": "https://feeds.feedburner.com/freakonomicsradio"
}
},
"fresh-air": {
"id": "fresh-air",
"title": "Fresh Air",
"info": "Hosted by Terry Gross, \u003cem>Fresh Air from WHYY\u003c/em> is the Peabody Award-winning weekday magazine of contemporary arts and issues. One of public radio's most popular programs, Fresh Air features intimate conversations with today's biggest luminaries.",
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"link": "/radio/program/fresh-air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/381444908/podcast.xml"
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"id": "here-and-now",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510051/podcast.xml"
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},
"hidden-brain": {
"id": "hidden-brain",
"title": "Hidden Brain",
"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/hiddenbrain.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/series/423302056/hidden-brain",
"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
"subscribe": {
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"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/Science-Podcasts/Hidden-Brain-p787503/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510308/podcast.xml"
}
},
"how-i-built-this": {
"id": "how-i-built-this",
"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/howIBuiltThis.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this",
"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/3zxy",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510313/podcast.xml"
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},
"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
"imageAlt": "KQED Hyphenación",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
"meta": {
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"order": 15
},
"link": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/2p3Fifq96nw9BPcmFdIq0o?si=39209f7b25774f38",
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"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/6c3dd23c-93fb-4aab-97ba-1725fa6315f1/hyphenaci%C3%B3n",
"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC2275451163"
}
},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
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"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/id1492194549",
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}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/xtTd",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
}
},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Masters-of-Scale-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "http://mastersofscale.app.link/",
"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mindshift-podcast/id1078765985",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/464615685/mind-shift-podcast",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/stories-teachers-share",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "On Our Watch from NPR and KQED",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1567098962",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/show/on-our-watch",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510360/podcast.xml"
}
},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/otm",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
"title": "PBS NewsHour",
"info": "Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "pbs"
},
"link": "/radio/program/pbs-newshour",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/",
"rss": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/feeds/rss/podcasts/show"
}
},
"perspectives": {
"id": "perspectives",
"title": "Perspectives",
"tagline": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991",
"info": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Perspectives_Tile_Final.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Perspectives",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/perspectives/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 14
},
"link": "/perspectives",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id73801135",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/432309616/perspectives",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/perspectives/category/perspectives/feed/",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93dzIua3FlZC5vcmcvcGVyc3BlY3RpdmVzL2NhdGVnb3J5L3BlcnNwZWN0aXZlcy9mZWVkLw"
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},
"planet-money": {
"id": "planet-money",
"title": "Planet Money",
"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
"airtime": "SUN 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/planetmoney.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/sections/money/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/planet-money",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/M4f5",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/planet-money/id290783428?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/Business--Economics-Podcasts/Planet-Money-p164680/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510289/podcast.xml"
}
},
"politicalbreakdown": {
"id": "politicalbreakdown",
"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Political-Breakdown-2024-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Political Breakdown",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/politicalbreakdown",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 5
},
"link": "/podcasts/politicalbreakdown",
"subscribe": {
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"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/e0c2d153-ad36-4c8d-901d-f1da6a724824/political-breakdown",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/572155894/political-breakdown",
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