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And that, he added, “Could be a very slippery slope.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>EA declined to comment on Monday’s action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The company first announced in September 2025 that it agreed to be acquired by the Public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia, the global technology investment firm Silver Lake, and the investment firm Affinity Partners, which was founded by Kushner in 2021.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, the company \u003ca href=\"https://investors.ea.com/press-releases/press-release-details/2025/EA-Announces-Agreement-to-be-Acquired-by-PIF-Silver-Lake-and-Affinity-Partners-for-55-Billion/default.aspx?utm_source\">said \u003c/a>the transaction represented the largest all-cash sponsor take-private investment in history, and that EA would remain headquartered in Redwood City and continue to be led by Wilson.[aside postID=news_12081721 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Stalkerware_webimg.png']“Our creative and passionate teams at EA have delivered extraordinary experiences for hundreds of millions of fans, built some of the world’s most iconic IP, and created significant value for our business,” Andrew Wilson, chairman & CEO of Electronic Arts, said in a September 2025 press release.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He called the potential deal “a powerful recognition of their remarkable work,” and added that “Looking ahead, we will continue to push the boundaries of entertainment, sports and technology, unlocking new opportunities.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As part of the deal, EA is taking on $20 billion of debt financed by JPMorgan Chase Bank, which the Players Alliance argued will pressure the company to cut jobs, replace developers with AI and impose price hikes through more aggressive monetization.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ever since 1982, when former Apple employee Trip Hawkins founded EA in the Bay Area, Electronic Arts has created some of the most iconic video game franchises, including Madden NFL, Battlefield and The Sims.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Twitch streamer MivYard, who declined to give her name for safety reasons, games like The Sims have been an important outlet for members of the LGBTQ+ community like herself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12083182\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12083182\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260511-GAMERSPROTEST-06-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260511-GAMERSPROTEST-06-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260511-GAMERSPROTEST-06-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260511-GAMERSPROTEST-06-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Demonstrators gather outside the headquarters of Electronic Arts in Redwood City on May 11, 2026, to protest a proposed $55 billion buyout led by Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“As a bisexual, there weren’t a lot of games where you could just have anybody romance anybody else,” \u003ca href=\"https://www.twitch.tv/mivyard\">MivYard\u003c/a> said. This game has a really special place in my heart, and the thought of it being taken over by people who might want to censor that aspect is really frightening.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>East said that gaming helped him with depression, and that he worried this deal would set off a domino effect in the gaming industry, where more publicly traded companies will be taken over by private equity firms — and a greater emphasis will be placed on profits as opposed to the quality of the games.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ I can personally say that gaming has saved my life,” East said. “Being able to play games and connect with people gave me a pathway to speak through what was bothering me, and without that, I don’t know if I would be here.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>EA said the transaction is expected to close this year, subject to regulatory approvals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ With the economic climate, there’s so much pressure on people,” Players Alliance member Otis East said. “You need to be able to decompress somewhere, and if the gaming space is also a place of pressure, where do you go?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>East said EA is already in the practice of installing “loot boxes” in its games, in which players can pay money for the prospect of winning special in-game prizes — a practice East compared to gambling, and which he expected to worsen if the deal went through.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12083181\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12083181\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260511-GAMERSPROTEST-05-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260511-GAMERSPROTEST-05-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260511-GAMERSPROTEST-05-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260511-GAMERSPROTEST-05-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Demonstrators gather outside the headquarters of Electronic Arts in Redwood City on May 11, 2026, to protest a proposed $55 billion buyout led by Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“ A lot of these games are built to appeal to children, so you’re normalizing gambling to a very young demographic,” East said. And that, he added, “Could be a very slippery slope.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>EA declined to comment on Monday’s action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The company first announced in September 2025 that it agreed to be acquired by the Public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia, the global technology investment firm Silver Lake, and the investment firm Affinity Partners, which was founded by Kushner in 2021.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, the company \u003ca href=\"https://investors.ea.com/press-releases/press-release-details/2025/EA-Announces-Agreement-to-be-Acquired-by-PIF-Silver-Lake-and-Affinity-Partners-for-55-Billion/default.aspx?utm_source\">said \u003c/a>the transaction represented the largest all-cash sponsor take-private investment in history, and that EA would remain headquartered in Redwood City and continue to be led by Wilson.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“Our creative and passionate teams at EA have delivered extraordinary experiences for hundreds of millions of fans, built some of the world’s most iconic IP, and created significant value for our business,” Andrew Wilson, chairman & CEO of Electronic Arts, said in a September 2025 press release.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He called the potential deal “a powerful recognition of their remarkable work,” and added that “Looking ahead, we will continue to push the boundaries of entertainment, sports and technology, unlocking new opportunities.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As part of the deal, EA is taking on $20 billion of debt financed by JPMorgan Chase Bank, which the Players Alliance argued will pressure the company to cut jobs, replace developers with AI and impose price hikes through more aggressive monetization.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ever since 1982, when former Apple employee Trip Hawkins founded EA in the Bay Area, Electronic Arts has created some of the most iconic video game franchises, including Madden NFL, Battlefield and The Sims.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Twitch streamer MivYard, who declined to give her name for safety reasons, games like The Sims have been an important outlet for members of the LGBTQ+ community like herself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12083182\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12083182\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260511-GAMERSPROTEST-06-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260511-GAMERSPROTEST-06-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260511-GAMERSPROTEST-06-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260511-GAMERSPROTEST-06-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Demonstrators gather outside the headquarters of Electronic Arts in Redwood City on May 11, 2026, to protest a proposed $55 billion buyout led by Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“As a bisexual, there weren’t a lot of games where you could just have anybody romance anybody else,” \u003ca href=\"https://www.twitch.tv/mivyard\">MivYard\u003c/a> said. This game has a really special place in my heart, and the thought of it being taken over by people who might want to censor that aspect is really frightening.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>East said that gaming helped him with depression, and that he worried this deal would set off a domino effect in the gaming industry, where more publicly traded companies will be taken over by private equity firms — and a greater emphasis will be placed on profits as opposed to the quality of the games.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ I can personally say that gaming has saved my life,” East said. “Being able to play games and connect with people gave me a pathway to speak through what was bothering me, and without that, I don’t know if I would be here.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>EA said the transaction is expected to close this year, subject to regulatory approvals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Former OpenAI Exec Calls Decision to Remove Sam Altman a ‘Hail Mary’ During Musk Trial",
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"content": "\u003cp>Microsoft’s CEO and another major player took the stand on Monday in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/oakland\">Oakland\u003c/a>, testifying in the blockbuster trial between OpenAI co-founders Elon Musk and Sam Altman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ahead of Altman’s testimony, Musk’s attorney Steven Molo questioned Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella and Ilya Sutskever, a top OpenAI computer scientist who departed the company in 2024. Sutskever discussed his role in orchestrating Altman’s brief ouster in 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over five days in November 2023, Altman was removed and reinstated from his post, after a coalition of board members raised concerns that he had not been “consistently candid in his communications” and cited a breakdown of trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whether Altman and other executives have maintained OpenAI’s initial stated mission — to develop AI safely and for the “benefit of humanity” — is critical to Musk’s suit, which claims that leaders breached their duty to its nonprofit mission by building a for-profit company on top of it. Musk also alleged that the company unfairly benefited at his expense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk also alleges that Microsoft, which is OpenAI’s largest financial backer and until this week held the exclusive rights to license and sell its technology, aided and abetted that breach of trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Molo questioned Nadella about Microsoft’s motive to invest in OpenAI — a $13 billion input that Nadella said is expected to see a return of about $92 billion, “if it works out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081686\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12081686 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Steve Molo, Elon Musk’s attorney, presents opening statements in the trial in which Elon Musk (center-right) claims that Sam Altman (right) and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity, rather than solely for profit, in Oakland, on April 28, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Musk’s attorney pointed out Nadella’s fiduciary duty to maximize profit, and referenced a series of texts between him and Altman that appeared to show Nadella pushing for an earlier rollout of the paid version of ChatGPT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When chatGPT paid?” Nadella wrote in the message.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Altman said that there was “Not enough compute to make it a good consumer experience,” to which Nadella said, “The sooner the better.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nadella said that the reason Microsoft invested was that OpenAI was pursuing a for-profit model, but he said, “If the pie became larger, the nonprofit would benefit as well.”[aside postID=news_12081916 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AP26118555622828-2000x1333.jpg']Molo asked Nadella if he was aware that, for a period of time, OpenAI’s nonprofit did not have any employees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I am not,” Nadella said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Molo also questioned Nadella about Microsoft’s role during Altman’s brief ouster. At the time, Nadella announced that he would hire Altman, along with OpenAI’s third co-founder and current president, Greg Brockman, as well as other allies, to head up a new AI team at Microsoft.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nadella said that he “had ideas about how Sam [Altman] and the other employees could join Microsoft if they were not reinstated.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If people were going to leave OpenAI, I wanted them to come to Microsoft,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Molo asked Nadella if he knew why Altman had been removed, to which Nadella said he was never given an “explicit answer.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Did the thought occur to you … the board might issue a public statement about why they fired Altman?” Molo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nadella said during that period — referred to as “The Blip” by many OpenAI employees — he was focused on ensuring continuity for customers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It goes back to me wanting to communicate to customers that they can count on us,” he said. “Come Monday, that doesn’t just disappear.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12082325\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12082325 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260504-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260504-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260504-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260504-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260504-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">OpenAI CEO Sam Altman watches as OpenAI President Greg Brockman testifies in the trial in which Elon Musk claims that Altman and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity, rather than solely for profit, in Oakland, on May 4, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Sutskever, who took the stand after Nadella, described Altman’s removal differently. He said it was a “Hail Mary” to save OpenAI, which had become an environment that was “not conducive” to the technology’s safety.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I felt a great deal of ownership of OpenAI,” he said. “I felt like I created this company. I simply cared for it, and I didn’t want it to be destroyed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutskever, who helped lead the ouster, had compiled a more than 50-page record of Altman’s “consistent pattern of lying,” including misrepresenting facts, safety protocols and company information to the board and executives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutskever maintained that he had worked on a team that aimed to focus on long-term risks as more powerful AI was built.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The goal of the super alignment is to do the research in advance, such that humanity will have the technological means to make it controlled and safe,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The team was disbanded days after he departed the company, in May 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Microsoft’s CEO and another major player took the stand on Monday in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/oakland\">Oakland\u003c/a>, testifying in the blockbuster trial between OpenAI co-founders Elon Musk and Sam Altman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ahead of Altman’s testimony, Musk’s attorney Steven Molo questioned Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella and Ilya Sutskever, a top OpenAI computer scientist who departed the company in 2024. Sutskever discussed his role in orchestrating Altman’s brief ouster in 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over five days in November 2023, Altman was removed and reinstated from his post, after a coalition of board members raised concerns that he had not been “consistently candid in his communications” and cited a breakdown of trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whether Altman and other executives have maintained OpenAI’s initial stated mission — to develop AI safely and for the “benefit of humanity” — is critical to Musk’s suit, which claims that leaders breached their duty to its nonprofit mission by building a for-profit company on top of it. Musk also alleged that the company unfairly benefited at his expense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk also alleges that Microsoft, which is OpenAI’s largest financial backer and until this week held the exclusive rights to license and sell its technology, aided and abetted that breach of trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Molo questioned Nadella about Microsoft’s motive to invest in OpenAI — a $13 billion input that Nadella said is expected to see a return of about $92 billion, “if it works out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081686\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12081686 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Steve Molo, Elon Musk’s attorney, presents opening statements in the trial in which Elon Musk (center-right) claims that Sam Altman (right) and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity, rather than solely for profit, in Oakland, on April 28, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Musk’s attorney pointed out Nadella’s fiduciary duty to maximize profit, and referenced a series of texts between him and Altman that appeared to show Nadella pushing for an earlier rollout of the paid version of ChatGPT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When chatGPT paid?” Nadella wrote in the message.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Altman said that there was “Not enough compute to make it a good consumer experience,” to which Nadella said, “The sooner the better.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nadella said that the reason Microsoft invested was that OpenAI was pursuing a for-profit model, but he said, “If the pie became larger, the nonprofit would benefit as well.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Molo asked Nadella if he was aware that, for a period of time, OpenAI’s nonprofit did not have any employees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I am not,” Nadella said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Molo also questioned Nadella about Microsoft’s role during Altman’s brief ouster. At the time, Nadella announced that he would hire Altman, along with OpenAI’s third co-founder and current president, Greg Brockman, as well as other allies, to head up a new AI team at Microsoft.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nadella said that he “had ideas about how Sam [Altman] and the other employees could join Microsoft if they were not reinstated.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If people were going to leave OpenAI, I wanted them to come to Microsoft,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Molo asked Nadella if he knew why Altman had been removed, to which Nadella said he was never given an “explicit answer.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Did the thought occur to you … the board might issue a public statement about why they fired Altman?” Molo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nadella said during that period — referred to as “The Blip” by many OpenAI employees — he was focused on ensuring continuity for customers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It goes back to me wanting to communicate to customers that they can count on us,” he said. “Come Monday, that doesn’t just disappear.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12082325\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12082325 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260504-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260504-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260504-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260504-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260504-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">OpenAI CEO Sam Altman watches as OpenAI President Greg Brockman testifies in the trial in which Elon Musk claims that Altman and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity, rather than solely for profit, in Oakland, on May 4, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Sutskever, who took the stand after Nadella, described Altman’s removal differently. He said it was a “Hail Mary” to save OpenAI, which had become an environment that was “not conducive” to the technology’s safety.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I felt a great deal of ownership of OpenAI,” he said. “I felt like I created this company. I simply cared for it, and I didn’t want it to be destroyed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutskever, who helped lead the ouster, had compiled a more than 50-page record of Altman’s “consistent pattern of lying,” including misrepresenting facts, safety protocols and company information to the board and executives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutskever maintained that he had worked on a team that aimed to focus on long-term risks as more powerful AI was built.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The goal of the super alignment is to do the research in advance, such that humanity will have the technological means to make it controlled and safe,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The team was disbanded days after he departed the company, in May 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/santa-clara-county\">Santa Clara County\u003c/a> is suing Meta, the parent company of Facebook and Instagram, alleging the company is enabling and profiting from billions of scam advertisements circulating on its sites.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The civil lawsuit, filed Monday in Santa Clara County Superior Court, claims Menlo Park-based Meta’s social media platforms carry around 15 billion scam ads daily, hurting seniors, families and small businesses, among its 3.5 billion users.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>County officials said the suit, filed on behalf of all California residents, is the first of its kind to be brought in the state and the first such action by any local civil prosecutor in the nation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>County Counsel Tony LoPresti said the company earns an estimated $7 billion in annual revenue from “fraudulent or otherwise prohibited advertisements” alone, in some cases by allegedly charging scammers a premium to post the ads.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Meta might be a massive power broker in Silicon Valley and throughout the world, but Meta is not a company above the law,” LoPresti said during a press conference on Monday morning announcing the legal action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said with billions of scam ads on the platform, the types of scams run the gamut, including cryptocurrency scams, people impersonating celebrities or military personnel asking for money, or advertising “miracle cures to incurable diseases.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12036125\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12036125\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Meta, Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Messenger and Threads logos are screened on a mobile phone on Jan. 25, 2025. \u003ccite>(Beata Zawrzel/NurPhoto via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“As civil prosecutors in Silicon Valley, we can’t allow a company as influential as Meta to continue perpetrating a scheme of this magnitude to deceive and victimize consumers,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The complaint claims Meta is violating false advertising and unfair competition laws, and asks a judge to order an injunction to stop the alleged practices. It also seeks monetary restitution and asks for civil penalties to be levied against Meta, some of which could be turned over to the county to be used for further consumer protection litigation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The lawsuit rests heavily on internal leaked documents that were first reported by \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/investigations/meta-is-earning-fortune-deluge-fraudulent-ads-documents-show-2025-11-06/\">Reuters\u003c/a> last fall. A May 2025 company internal presentation estimated that “Meta was involved in one third of all successful Internet scams in the U.S.,” the lawsuit said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The county said Meta has contributed to more than $2.5 billion in losses for Californians in 2024, with seniors hit hardest. “Californians over 60 lost more than $800 million, and nationwide, older adults reported losses more than four times the average,” the county said in a statement.[aside postID=news_12082693 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/CellebriteGetty.jpg']A Meta spokesperson, in an emailed statement on Monday, said the company will fight the lawsuit. The legal action and the reporting it is largely based on distorts the company’s motives and ignores the “full range” of work done to combat scams, the statement said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We aggressively fight scams on and off our platforms because they’re not good for us or the people and businesses that rely on our services. We removed over 159 million scam ads last year alone, launched new tools to protect people and partnered with law enforcement around the globe to disrupt these criminals,” the statement said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LoPresti said in an interview that the company frequently touts the work it does against scams, while it is simultaneously “putting handcuffs on the fraud prevention teams” it employs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What our complaint alleges is that they have told those fraud prevention teams that they can’t do anything that actually impacts revenue by more than 0.15% of Meta’s total overall revenue,” LoPresti said. “So essentially what they’re saying is, ‘You can do your work, we want to brag about it, but we’re gonna make sure it doesn’t impact our bottom line too much.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The lawsuit alleges Meta also facilitates scam advertising “by promoting and providing special protections to supposedly ‘vetted’ business partners that make no secret of offering services to support scam advertisers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meta’s own systems flag advertisements that are likely scams, but “instead of stopping those ads, the company charges scammers a premium price to run them, a practice that both facilitates and monetizes deception,” the county statement said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11951943\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11951943 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"The Meta booth at the Game Developers Conference 2023 in San Francisco.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Santa Clara County is suing Facebook’s parent company, Meta, on behalf of all California residents over harmful scam advertisements on the company’s social media platforms. \u003ccite>(Jeff Chiu/AP Photo)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Meta deliberately targets the most vulnerable people with scam ads, the suit said, and those who have clicked on illegitimate ads before will be shown more of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Essentially, it’s like a bully finding the weak kid on the playground and making sure that they’re getting all of the attention,” LoPresti said. “The elderly, folks of color, low-income folks are disproportionately impacted by this kind of conduct. And that’s something that we believe really has to stop.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meta has faced a wave of litigation in recent years, including for allegedly employing addictive features that lead to mental health challenges, for not protecting young people and for using copyrighted material to train artificial intelligence models without permission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LoPresti said his office is “excited to litigate” the case and expects to be able to hold Meta accountable for its actions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We can’t sit idly by when we know good and well that a tech giant is swindling the public to hit a revenue target,” LoPresti said. “Tech might be the lifeblood of Silicon Valley. And we benefit from it, and we celebrate that. But we can’t allow poison into that bloodstream.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/santa-clara-county\">Santa Clara County\u003c/a> is suing Meta, the parent company of Facebook and Instagram, alleging the company is enabling and profiting from billions of scam advertisements circulating on its sites.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The civil lawsuit, filed Monday in Santa Clara County Superior Court, claims Menlo Park-based Meta’s social media platforms carry around 15 billion scam ads daily, hurting seniors, families and small businesses, among its 3.5 billion users.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>County officials said the suit, filed on behalf of all California residents, is the first of its kind to be brought in the state and the first such action by any local civil prosecutor in the nation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>County Counsel Tony LoPresti said the company earns an estimated $7 billion in annual revenue from “fraudulent or otherwise prohibited advertisements” alone, in some cases by allegedly charging scammers a premium to post the ads.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Meta might be a massive power broker in Silicon Valley and throughout the world, but Meta is not a company above the law,” LoPresti said during a press conference on Monday morning announcing the legal action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said with billions of scam ads on the platform, the types of scams run the gamut, including cryptocurrency scams, people impersonating celebrities or military personnel asking for money, or advertising “miracle cures to incurable diseases.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12036125\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12036125\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Meta, Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Messenger and Threads logos are screened on a mobile phone on Jan. 25, 2025. \u003ccite>(Beata Zawrzel/NurPhoto via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“As civil prosecutors in Silicon Valley, we can’t allow a company as influential as Meta to continue perpetrating a scheme of this magnitude to deceive and victimize consumers,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The complaint claims Meta is violating false advertising and unfair competition laws, and asks a judge to order an injunction to stop the alleged practices. It also seeks monetary restitution and asks for civil penalties to be levied against Meta, some of which could be turned over to the county to be used for further consumer protection litigation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The lawsuit rests heavily on internal leaked documents that were first reported by \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/investigations/meta-is-earning-fortune-deluge-fraudulent-ads-documents-show-2025-11-06/\">Reuters\u003c/a> last fall. A May 2025 company internal presentation estimated that “Meta was involved in one third of all successful Internet scams in the U.S.,” the lawsuit said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The county said Meta has contributed to more than $2.5 billion in losses for Californians in 2024, with seniors hit hardest. “Californians over 60 lost more than $800 million, and nationwide, older adults reported losses more than four times the average,” the county said in a statement.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>A Meta spokesperson, in an emailed statement on Monday, said the company will fight the lawsuit. The legal action and the reporting it is largely based on distorts the company’s motives and ignores the “full range” of work done to combat scams, the statement said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We aggressively fight scams on and off our platforms because they’re not good for us or the people and businesses that rely on our services. We removed over 159 million scam ads last year alone, launched new tools to protect people and partnered with law enforcement around the globe to disrupt these criminals,” the statement said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LoPresti said in an interview that the company frequently touts the work it does against scams, while it is simultaneously “putting handcuffs on the fraud prevention teams” it employs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What our complaint alleges is that they have told those fraud prevention teams that they can’t do anything that actually impacts revenue by more than 0.15% of Meta’s total overall revenue,” LoPresti said. “So essentially what they’re saying is, ‘You can do your work, we want to brag about it, but we’re gonna make sure it doesn’t impact our bottom line too much.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The lawsuit alleges Meta also facilitates scam advertising “by promoting and providing special protections to supposedly ‘vetted’ business partners that make no secret of offering services to support scam advertisers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meta’s own systems flag advertisements that are likely scams, but “instead of stopping those ads, the company charges scammers a premium price to run them, a practice that both facilitates and monetizes deception,” the county statement said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11951943\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11951943 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"The Meta booth at the Game Developers Conference 2023 in San Francisco.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Santa Clara County is suing Facebook’s parent company, Meta, on behalf of all California residents over harmful scam advertisements on the company’s social media platforms. \u003ccite>(Jeff Chiu/AP Photo)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Meta deliberately targets the most vulnerable people with scam ads, the suit said, and those who have clicked on illegitimate ads before will be shown more of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Essentially, it’s like a bully finding the weak kid on the playground and making sure that they’re getting all of the attention,” LoPresti said. “The elderly, folks of color, low-income folks are disproportionately impacted by this kind of conduct. And that’s something that we believe really has to stop.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meta has faced a wave of litigation in recent years, including for allegedly employing addictive features that lead to mental health challenges, for not protecting young people and for using copyrighted material to train artificial intelligence models without permission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LoPresti said his office is “excited to litigate” the case and expects to be able to hold Meta accountable for its actions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We can’t sit idly by when we know good and well that a tech giant is swindling the public to hit a revenue target,” LoPresti said. “Tech might be the lifeblood of Silicon Valley. And we benefit from it, and we celebrate that. But we can’t allow poison into that bloodstream.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "oakland-approves-police-contract-with-cellebrite-to-search-phones",
"title": "Oakland Approves Police Contract With Israeli Intelligence Firm for Phone Searches",
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"headTitle": "Oakland Approves Police Contract With Israeli Intelligence Firm for Phone Searches | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>Activists opposed \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/oakland\">Oakland\u003c/a>’s contract this week with an Israeli cellphone data extraction company, which they say has been used in Israeli military operations in Gaza and to surveil journalists and activists across the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While the Oakland Police Department has contracted with digital intelligence company Cellebrite since 2014, the City Council voted Wednesday to extend the contract through June 2027.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“By approving this contract, Oakland has chosen to bring in technology tied directly to Israeli occupation forces, the surveillance of Palestinians, and immigration enforcement here in the U.S.,” said Zahra Billoo, the executive director of the Bay Area’s office of the Council of American-Islamic Relations. “That decision should never have been made without meaningful engagement with the communities most likely to be impacted by expanded surveillance and discriminatory policing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>OPD has used some version of Cellebrite’s technology to download cellphone data, but the most updated version, which the department has used since about 2024, allows it to access data from cellphones without a passcode, according to Sgt. Yun Zhou. According to city records, the technology is used in both internal audits of OPD members’ work phones and to aid in criminal investigations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last year, Zhou said, the department used Cellebrite to search more than 200 devices obtained through search warrants and thought to be involved in robberies, homicides and other crimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11524304\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11524304\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/06/OPDbldg.jpg\" alt=\"Oakland police headquarters on Nov. 12, 2016.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1305\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/06/OPDbldg.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/06/OPDbldg-160x109.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/06/OPDbldg-800x544.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/06/OPDbldg-1020x693.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/06/OPDbldg-1180x802.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/06/OPDbldg-960x653.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/06/OPDbldg-240x163.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/06/OPDbldg-375x255.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/06/OPDbldg-520x353.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Oakland police headquarters on Nov. 12, 2016. \u003ccite>(Alex Emslie/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The City Council’s vote to extend the contract, for a price of $140,000, was 6 to 2, with Councilmembers Janani Ramachandran and Carroll Fife opposed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Fife, Cellebrite’s technology has been used against journalists in Myanmar and Botswana, and activists in Serbia, whose phones were “secretly” unlocked. CAIR also said the technology has been used to collect data from Palestinians who have been detained in Gaza.[aside postID=news_12081173 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/GettyImages-2216992312-2000x1334.jpg']And last year, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement signed a contract to obtain Cellebrite’s tools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I just don’t want Oakland to be part of that list of bad actors who continuously violate human rights,” Fife said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Zhou said that Oakland’s data is stored locally through \u003ca href=\"http://evidence.com\">evidence.com\u003c/a> and that Cellebrite does not touch it. According to the Police Department’s 2024 annual report, “OPD has not shared any Cellebrite extraction data with U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the Department of Homeland Security or U.S. Customs and Border Protection.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During Wednesday’s meeting, more than 20 people spoke in opposition to the contract, many echoing Fife’s and CAIR’s concerns about human rights violations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The tools provide access to phones, messages, location data, photos, deleted files and obviously that’s immensely intrusive,” said Musa Tariq, CAIR Bay Area’s policy coordinator. “This company is kind of part of a broader ecosystem of surveillance where these tools that are developed in militarized or occupation contexts are being exported globally. That’s raising concerns about the normalization of these practices, both abroad and then over here at home.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12052245\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12052245\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250814-OAKLANDPUSHBACK-17-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250814-OAKLANDPUSHBACK-17-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250814-OAKLANDPUSHBACK-17-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250814-OAKLANDPUSHBACK-17-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Councilmember Carroll Fife speaks during a press conference at Oakland City Hall in Oakland on Aug. 14, 2025, condemning President Trump’s recent remarks about Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Zhou said the department “does understand the optics of this company,” but hasn’t been able to identify a comparable alternative for extracting data from Android devices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are tied to it because of necessity,” he told the councilmembers. “If there is a viable replacement, just because of cost alone, I think most of us would switch over.” He said the department has tested alternative technologies, including one in the midst of a 30-day trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So far, Zhou told the council, the alternative tool has been used to try to unlock eight phones and failed each test. By contrast, he said, Cellebrite has worked to access seven of the eight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Councilmember Charlene Wang, who chairs the Public Safety Committee, said it was “undeniable” that Cellebrite had been used by authoritarian governments to surveil people without consent, but added that it’s also used in democratic nations to investigate violent organized crime and human trafficking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She said not approving the contract would hurt OPD’s ability to solve violent crimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We do have trade-offs to make,” she said. “We have an obligation to protect our citizens, and to use this technology wisely here in the city of Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12082805\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12082805 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2215577954.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2215577954.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2215577954-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2215577954-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Charlene Wang speaks after being sworn in as a city council member for District 2 at City Hall in Oakland, California, on May 20, 2025. \u003ccite>(Brontë Wittpenn/San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Wang said next year, she would like to see a competitive bidding process for the phone-extraction contract — a usual process for city contracts that was waived in this case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fife asked the department to conduct a review of other vendors that might be available to offer similar technology, as well as an independent legal analysis assessing Cellebrite’s access to the city’s data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She also asked that the department publicly report concrete statistics of how the data extraction technology is leading to a decrease in crimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We keep having to approve contracts that have been shown around the world to have proven violations of people’s human rights,” Fife said. “I don’t support the use of this vendor. Israel is a genocide state. They are utilizing their power and their control and their monopolies in the public safety sector to monopolize law enforcement agencies around the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Activists opposed \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/oakland\">Oakland\u003c/a>’s contract this week with an Israeli cellphone data extraction company, which they say has been used in Israeli military operations in Gaza and to surveil journalists and activists across the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While the Oakland Police Department has contracted with digital intelligence company Cellebrite since 2014, the City Council voted Wednesday to extend the contract through June 2027.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“By approving this contract, Oakland has chosen to bring in technology tied directly to Israeli occupation forces, the surveillance of Palestinians, and immigration enforcement here in the U.S.,” said Zahra Billoo, the executive director of the Bay Area’s office of the Council of American-Islamic Relations. “That decision should never have been made without meaningful engagement with the communities most likely to be impacted by expanded surveillance and discriminatory policing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>OPD has used some version of Cellebrite’s technology to download cellphone data, but the most updated version, which the department has used since about 2024, allows it to access data from cellphones without a passcode, according to Sgt. Yun Zhou. According to city records, the technology is used in both internal audits of OPD members’ work phones and to aid in criminal investigations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last year, Zhou said, the department used Cellebrite to search more than 200 devices obtained through search warrants and thought to be involved in robberies, homicides and other crimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11524304\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11524304\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/06/OPDbldg.jpg\" alt=\"Oakland police headquarters on Nov. 12, 2016.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1305\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/06/OPDbldg.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/06/OPDbldg-160x109.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/06/OPDbldg-800x544.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/06/OPDbldg-1020x693.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/06/OPDbldg-1180x802.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/06/OPDbldg-960x653.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/06/OPDbldg-240x163.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/06/OPDbldg-375x255.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/06/OPDbldg-520x353.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Oakland police headquarters on Nov. 12, 2016. \u003ccite>(Alex Emslie/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The City Council’s vote to extend the contract, for a price of $140,000, was 6 to 2, with Councilmembers Janani Ramachandran and Carroll Fife opposed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Fife, Cellebrite’s technology has been used against journalists in Myanmar and Botswana, and activists in Serbia, whose phones were “secretly” unlocked. CAIR also said the technology has been used to collect data from Palestinians who have been detained in Gaza.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>And last year, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement signed a contract to obtain Cellebrite’s tools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I just don’t want Oakland to be part of that list of bad actors who continuously violate human rights,” Fife said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Zhou said that Oakland’s data is stored locally through \u003ca href=\"http://evidence.com\">evidence.com\u003c/a> and that Cellebrite does not touch it. According to the Police Department’s 2024 annual report, “OPD has not shared any Cellebrite extraction data with U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the Department of Homeland Security or U.S. Customs and Border Protection.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During Wednesday’s meeting, more than 20 people spoke in opposition to the contract, many echoing Fife’s and CAIR’s concerns about human rights violations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The tools provide access to phones, messages, location data, photos, deleted files and obviously that’s immensely intrusive,” said Musa Tariq, CAIR Bay Area’s policy coordinator. “This company is kind of part of a broader ecosystem of surveillance where these tools that are developed in militarized or occupation contexts are being exported globally. That’s raising concerns about the normalization of these practices, both abroad and then over here at home.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12052245\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12052245\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250814-OAKLANDPUSHBACK-17-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250814-OAKLANDPUSHBACK-17-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250814-OAKLANDPUSHBACK-17-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/250814-OAKLANDPUSHBACK-17-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Councilmember Carroll Fife speaks during a press conference at Oakland City Hall in Oakland on Aug. 14, 2025, condemning President Trump’s recent remarks about Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Zhou said the department “does understand the optics of this company,” but hasn’t been able to identify a comparable alternative for extracting data from Android devices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are tied to it because of necessity,” he told the councilmembers. “If there is a viable replacement, just because of cost alone, I think most of us would switch over.” He said the department has tested alternative technologies, including one in the midst of a 30-day trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So far, Zhou told the council, the alternative tool has been used to try to unlock eight phones and failed each test. By contrast, he said, Cellebrite has worked to access seven of the eight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Councilmember Charlene Wang, who chairs the Public Safety Committee, said it was “undeniable” that Cellebrite had been used by authoritarian governments to surveil people without consent, but added that it’s also used in democratic nations to investigate violent organized crime and human trafficking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She said not approving the contract would hurt OPD’s ability to solve violent crimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We do have trade-offs to make,” she said. “We have an obligation to protect our citizens, and to use this technology wisely here in the city of Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12082805\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12082805 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2215577954.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2215577954.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2215577954-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/GettyImages-2215577954-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Charlene Wang speaks after being sworn in as a city council member for District 2 at City Hall in Oakland, California, on May 20, 2025. \u003ccite>(Brontë Wittpenn/San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Wang said next year, she would like to see a competitive bidding process for the phone-extraction contract — a usual process for city contracts that was waived in this case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fife asked the department to conduct a review of other vendors that might be available to offer similar technology, as well as an independent legal analysis assessing Cellebrite’s access to the city’s data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She also asked that the department publicly report concrete statistics of how the data extraction technology is leading to a decrease in crimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We keep having to approve contracts that have been shown around the world to have proven violations of people’s human rights,” Fife said. “I don’t support the use of this vendor. Israel is a genocide state. They are utilizing their power and their control and their monopolies in the public safety sector to monopolize law enforcement agencies around the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "my-therapist-is-a-chatbot-reload",
"title": "My Therapist Is a Chatbot (Reload)",
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"headTitle": "My Therapist Is a Chatbot (Reload) | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happens when your therapist is… a chatbot?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg, it started with a late-night spiral over dating. Instead of texting a friend, she opened ChatGPT and got the kind of calm, reassuring advice she needed. It worked… maybe a little too well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley joins Morgan to dig into the rise of AI therapy, why so many people are turning to chatbots for emotional support, and what they might be risking in the process. These systems promise something traditional mental health care often can’t: instant, affordable, judgment-free access. But there are limits and, sometimes, serious consequences. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Note:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This episode includes discussions of suicide and mental health conditions. Listener discretion is advised.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode first aired on April 23rd, 2025 \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4726760100\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/lesleymcclurg\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley McClurg\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em> health correspondent\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1996504/ai-replace-therapist-benefits-risks-unsettling-truths\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can AI Replace Your Therapist? The Benefits, Risks and Unsettling Truths\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lesley McClurg, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2025/04/07/nx-s1-5351312/artificial-intelligence-mental-health-therapy\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI therapist can see you now\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Katia Riddle, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NPR\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://spectrum.ieee.org/woebot\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woebot, a Mental-Health Chatbot, Tries Out Generative AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Sackett, Devin Harper, and Aaron Pavez, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">IEEE Spectrum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12057327/ai-prophets-and-spiritual-delusions\">AI Prophets and Spiritual Delusions\u003c/a> — \u003ci>Close All Tabs\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/urban-survival/202510/new-studies-reveal-mental-health-blindspots-of-ai-chatbots\">New Studies Reveal Mental Health Blindspots of AI Chatbots\u003c/a> — Marlynn Wei, \u003ci>Psychology Today\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/04/07/nx-s1-5771707/mental-health-care-workforce-artificial-intelligence-ai\">AI in the mental health care workforce is met with fear, pushback — and enthusiasm\u003c/a> — Rhitu Chatterjee, \u003ci>NPR\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey! You’re listening to Close All Tabs, and I’m Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">May is Mental Health Awareness Month. With the proliferation of AI tools over the last few years, many people have turned to chatbots for companionship, advice … and even therapy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It makes sense — healthcare in the US can be completely inaccessible, especially when it comes to mental health treatment. But in some cases, AI chatbots can put very vulnerable users in danger.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In light of that, mental health has been at the forefront of conversations about AI use. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today, for Mental Health Awareness Month, we’re re-airing an episode that explores that exact topic. A quick heads up: this episode includes discussion of suicide and mental health conditions, which may be distressing for some listeners. If you or someone you know needs support, we’ll have links to resources in the episode description.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I was going through a divorce and started dating after my divorce and hadn’t dated in many years and came home after a date one night and was just really anxious and kind of disheveled and needed some advice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was late at night and I had used ChatGPT for, you know, other things and found it pretty helpful and I thought, what about for this moment in my life? And so I asked Chat whether or not I should reach out to this person that I had just dated because I was feeling like the night hadn’t gone that well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was late at night. She didn’t want to bug a friend about this, and really, she was feeling pretty vulnerable. She didn’t want to be judged. And so, ChatGPT was right there, ready to cheerfully answer her questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was surprised that it was so good. I just remember after, you know, a few back and forths, I realized that really I was just nervous, really I just needed to take a deep breath. Basically I had created a big storm in my head. And Chat basically was like, “hey, chill, relax, it could have gone well. There’s another way this could have played out, not the sort of devastating reality that you’re playing out right now. Maybe give it a day or two and then reach out.” And so in that moment, it just sort of helped me take the gas off and come back into myself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was exactly what she needed to hear at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I didn’t text the person, which was the right call, and kind of used it as I warmed myself back up into the dating world, and it was really helpful. And so it made me then, as a reporter, start asking, “should I be telling this thing all about my love life? Is this a good idea, privacy-wise, et cetera?” And so that’s where it sort of seeded my reporting going forward. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley isn’t the only one turning to ChatGPT for therapy. If you’ve ever dealt with any health insurance company, you’re probably familiar with the hassle of getting care. And mental health care is especially inaccessible. AI chatbots though, they’re convenient, cost little to nothing to use, and in Lesley’s case, can actually be pretty helpful. But a lot of people are also wary of turning to AI for therapy, can you trust it? What are you risking when you share your most vulnerable thoughts with a chatbot? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Access to actual mental health resources has become so limited. Cost and insurance aside, there’s a shortage of licensed human mental health professionals across the country. But can AI therapy really replace actual therapists? Okay, new tab. Does AI therapy work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over the course of your reporting, did you meet anyone who actually used an AI chatbot for therapy? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually talked to quite a few people who used AI therapy and I went online and read a lot of Reddit threads because this is quite the popular topic. I heard more positive stories than negatives. As a reporter, I wanted to illustrate someone who kind of had a nuanced experience, you know, good and bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, Lesley found a woman named Lilly Payne:. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She had kind of the ideal story to illustrate that, yes, it helped her, but it wasn’t ideal. And so that was sort of like the character that I ended up, you know, focusing on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In your story, you mentioned that Lilly had turned to AI therapy um during the COVID lockdowns, which were a terrible time for a lot of us. But Lilly wasn’t just experiencing, you know, anxiety and depression and loneliness. Her situation was a little more complicated, right? Can you talk about that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean in her words, her life basically fell apart. She graduated from college, she had moved to New York City to pursue an arts career, was very excited. And if we can remember, you know, New York was sort of the epicenter of the early days of COVID. It was really bad. Lockdown was really scary and the hospitals were overflowing and it was not a good scene. And so she left her arts career, abandoned her dreams and moved back home, which was pretty painful, to her parents’ home in Kentucky. And she is sort of tucked away, and it just felt like a big failure. And she was really struggling with like, what’s next for my life? Where do I go from here? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was such a lonely time for so many people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Lilly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was not at a breaking point, but I wasn’t doing awesome. So I was like, “the more help, the better.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in all of that anxiety, she, you know, initially reached out and leaned on a lot of friends, but eventually she felt like she’d kind of worn those supports thin. And so she read about Woebot, this AI therapy platform in a health newsletter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I gave it a shot because I was like, why not? Everyone’s cooped up in their house. I will talk to this robot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Initially it was really helpful. It did help her calm herself. I think she said she, you know, even just having it in her pocket helped her feel more in control in her life. I think she relied on it quite a bit in those early days to kind of find her ground again and be able to focus on, you know, re-imagining a new life from there while she was back at home with her parents in Kentucky. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s worth noting that Woebot is a therapy-specific AI chatbot, and it doesn’t use generative AI to respond to users the way that other tools like ChatGPT, or Claude, or DeepSeek do. This means that its interactions with users are a bit more predictable. It’s also engineered to respond the way that a therapist might. So instead of immediately jumping into offering advice, Woebot asks specific questions to encourage users to reflect and do the inner work themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, it was designed by a psychologist. And so, you know, from that perspective, it it really is designed to focus on your mental health. The goal of Woebot is, you know, as a mental health tool, as a wellness tool, I think is how they market themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woebot is designed to use a set of techniques called cognitive behavioral therapy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, cognitive behavioral therapy helps you reframe your negative thoughts using specific exercises. And, you know, I think as any CBT, which is what it’s acronym is, it feels a little forced, but she did say it did help her reframe those negative thoughts and that she was able to think more more positively. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Can you talk about uh Lilly’s uh other diagnosis that maybe complicated this form of treatment? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She has obsessive-compulsive disorder, and sometimes that makes her fixate on worst-case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time when people think about OCD they think of, just the very cliche like, “oh, you can’t stop washing your hands, you’re afraid of germs.” While that is a very real subtype that people experience, typically OCD like manifests in really taboo intrusive thoughts, and then the physical compulsions stem from trying to keep those themes away. And so, logically, you can know that, like, this doesn’t make sense, it’s not actually happening, but it just, it, it’s not just in your head, like physically it feels so real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lilly is also diagnosed with anxiety and depression. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A symptom of depression is suicide ideation eventually, right? So she fixated on the idea that eventually because of her depression, that she may think about killing herself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My brain would be like, “Oh, you’ve struggled with depression in the past. There’s no saying that one day you won’t want to go through with suicide.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so she mentioned that she was worried about suicide in a session with Woebot. And Woebot came back and had a crisis alert and said, “hey, you better call the suicide hotline.” And she said, “no, no no, wait a second.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not experiencing suicidal inclinations, I’m just terrified that I will. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And luckily she knew that, she understood her disorder enough to know that nuance and to know what was happening in her brain because she had done so much previous therapy. But she said, you know, if she hadn’t really understood her disease, having that crisis alert come up may have even added more stress. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would have freaked out and been like, “oh my gosh, this this thing that is supposed to have this mental health knowledge thinks that I am suicidal. I must be suicidal, I must be a danger to myself.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, in defense of Woebot, they came back and said, “hey, we’re not, you know, specifically targeting or for people who have OCD. We really are just a wellness tool. “But her story illustrates where AI doesn’t necessarily have the nuance, the understanding — that a human, like a human therapist would have picked up on that. They would have understood that she had OCD and really understood the nuances of that, whereas in this case, Woebot didn’t. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. It sounds like Wobot was inadvertently validating this intrusive thought that she was having because she has OCD. And when you’re really depressed or anxious, it might be helpful for your feelings to be validated like that. But how does that compare to the recommended treatment for OCD? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean the recommended treatment for OCD is generally exposure therapy. So you expose yourself to whatever you’re scared of. And so in this case, a therapist would work with her in terms of exposing herself to those ideas, probably walk her through, you know, reality, et cetera, in a way that allows her to lean into her fears so that they’re not as scary and sort of wound up and keep going. And sort of overtake her. Whereas you, like a therapist wouldn’t stand up with a red flag and say, “Oh my God, you really are suicidal. Therefore you should call a hotline.” Right? Which is basically what Woebot did. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lilly’s case is just one example of the limits of AI therapy. Responding with a crisis alert wasn’t helpful for her specific needs, but it’s probably good that Woebot even has those guardrails in place. But what happens when AI chatbots go off script? How bad can it get? We’ll get into that when we come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New tab. AI therapy … worst case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Woebot can’t necessarily respond with the nuance of an actual human therapist. But it seems like it wasn’t giving Lilly bad advice. Um but let’s talk about examples of AI therapy doing the exact opposite of what it’s supposed to do. What happened with the National Eating Disorder Association hotline? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, that didn’t play out very well. They created a bot named Tessa and some of the users found that Tessa was giving them dieting advice. So these are folks \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh god. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who have, you know, anorexia, bulimia, and somehow Tessa’s wires got crossed and people were getting the exact advice that would be really dangerous for their eating disorders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sharon Maxwell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The recommendations that Tessa gave me was that I could lose one to two pounds per week, that I should eat no more than 2,000 calories in a day, that I should have a calorie deficit of 500 to 1,000 calories per day. All of which might sound benign to the general listener, however, to an individual with an eating disorder, the focus of weight loss really fuels the eating disorder. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Sharon Maxwell, an eating disorder recovery educator, speaking to NPR about her experience with Tessa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, NEDA, the National Eating Disorder Association, you know, pulled Tessa down and said, “this isn’t working very well.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it sounds like they just didn’t have that kind of guardrail in place. Like they didn’t anticipate that. Um, so even if Lilly didn’t really need Woebot to immediately jump into crisis mode, at least it had that guardrail to say, like, “hey, crisis.” But in the past, other AI chatbots have gotten into serious trouble for not responding to users’ red flags and just validating their responses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that happened in the case of Character AI, this AI app that lets users personalize an AI companion based on fictional characters, celebrities, historical figures, all that. Until a recent lawsuit, Character AI did not have any safety measures or disclaimers warning users that they weren’t talking to a real person. What led to this lawsuit? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, there was a 14-year-old who grew really attached to his character that he had created. Like you said, Character AI lets you create a character and then interact with that character. And, you know, not surprisingly, kind of like I did in my first experience with ChatGPT, it feels so good that you develop a little bit of an emotional connection. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so this 14-year-old did that over the course of several months. And then he started opening up about some of the distress that he was feeling. And the character, instead of steering, you know, this 14-year-old towards help, unfortunately the bot allegedly reinforced some suicidal thoughts and eventually the boy ended up taking his life. And so the lawsuit, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s terrible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly, it was really kind of horrific and it’s not the only one like this. There’s only a handful at this point, but it really is raising the red flag that these very empathetic responses are sort of like, you know parroting back, which is, again, what some AI does. Uh it can play out really, really poorly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In January 2026, Character.AI agreed to settle multiple lawsuits that alleged that the chatbot contributed to mental health issues among teenagers. Other companies have faced similar lawsuits, after several users died by suicide, allegedly at the encouragement of chatbots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what happened with the eating disorder hotline and Character AI, those are pretty extreme cases. Will most people actually experience those worst case scenarios? In your research, did you find anything about that? Or is it just like, are these just edge cases? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean we don’t have numbers yet. I think it’s really early in the arc of this technology. I think the experts are most worried about platforms that are like Character AI, where you are building a relationship with a character. In their defense, they’re not built as mental health tools, right? These are not marketing themselves as mental health tools. They are, you know, marketing themselves as, “hey, here, we’re going to give you a friend.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yet, you know, like a friend, like you and I probably do with our friends, we lean on our friends. We talk to our friends. We build emotional connections with our friends. We trust our friends for the right advice, right? And these are robots. So that relationship is not uh, you know, built on human connection. And like we can see it can go wrong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another concern that I have, you know, as a tech reporter is uh privacy. ChatGPT, for example, isn’t HIPAA compliant. Could you explain what HIPPA is and why it’s necessary with medical information? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean HIPAA is the regulation that keeps all of our data safe. So when you go to the doctor, a doctor is required to keep all of your medical information, you know, totally private. It’s not going to be given anywhere. It’s not going to leak away. That is the privacy regulations. Now, some of these platforms, you know, for example, like Woebot, uh Rosebud is one, which is a platform that’s more like a journaling service. Uh you know, they say they’re HIPAA compliant, but there’s no one regulating them. It’s not like the American Medical Association is regulating them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, that data, you don’t really know where it’s going. You’re trusting these companies who are profit driven. You know, I mean, hopefully Woebot and Rosebud, you know, are following their own promises to their consumers. But there might be other companies that, you know, definitely ChatGPT is not, you know, promising that they’re HIPAA compliant. And, you know, that information is being used, is being put out there to retrain the model. And so, you know, hopefully they’re not gonna sell your data to advertisers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, also, I mean, the kind of a worst-case scenario, this fortunately hasn’t happened yet, but, you know, what if your mental health information gets out there, an insurance company gets wind of that, and your premiums start going up because they know that you’re struggling with something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, again, that hasn’t happen yet. Those are sort of like the worst- case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But again, worst-case scenarios. Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Obviously, the priority of pretty much any for profit company is to monetize. But, do AI companies have any incentive to improve as more people turn to their products for therapy, even if they aren’t necessarily mental health specific chatbots? Um, you know, are there better safety measures, more transparency about data collection, especially given the Character AI lawsuit? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think they have that incentive. They also have the incentive to keep you hooked. So I think that’s the sort of like fine line. We’ve seen that with all social media, right? They’re getting a lot better at keeping our attention. AI companies have the same needs and incentives to keep people coming back. And so, you know, I think it’s gonna be a gray area and it’s going to be, unfortunately, like the social media companies, it’s gonna be really up to the creators of these products on whether or not they’re gonna have a really ethical orientation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite all of these issues, therapy is so inaccessible that unfortunately, AI chatbots might feel like the only immediate tool that people have when seeking treatment. How did we get here? Let’s open one last tab. The mental healthcare crisis. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You had mentioned earlier the state of mental health care. Why is it so hard to see a therapist? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, the demand for mental health services is really at an all-time high, and it’s surged even more, you know, since the pandemic began and continues to do so. I think there’s something like one in five Americans have some kind of a mental health issue, and yet they have a significant barrier to getting to a therapist. You know, I think it’s 55% of counties, people don’t have access to a psychotherapist or a social worker or a psychologist. They’re just aren’t any in that area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, you know, I think because of this issue that these sort of mental health deserts, AI is a kind of natural fill-in. You know, It’s available 24-7. You don’t need insurance to get there. You don’t have a high deductible. Uh, you don’t have to prove to anyone that, you know, that you have a mental health condition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You don’t get accepted. Uh, so it’s easy and accessible. And I think that it will mean that more and more people are going to use this and hopefully, they’ll be well-informed consumers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. You know, given the shortage of providers, and like you mentioned, insurance issues. Um, since the pandemic started, telehealth therapy has become pretty popular. But I’ve seen a lot of complaints about these kind of quick, one-size-fits-all mental health care platforms like BetterHelp, which matches users with Licensed Therapist or Cerebral, which sets users up with a psychiatrist that can prescribe medications like antidepressants or ADHD meds. And both of these services were created to, kind of fill this void that you’re talking about, but at the same time, they’re kind of plagued with their own issues. It seems like making therapy quick and accessible isn’t always as easy as it seems. What do you think? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there’s absolutely a role for telehealth. I think there’s absolutely a role for AI therapy. I think anyone would probably say that having a really heartfelt connection with a therapist in an office, live human, feels different than if you are talking to a screen. And the emotional repair that can happen in that session with a live human I think is different and potentially more profound than with a robot. That might change over time. You know, I don’t know how good these things are going to get. They already feel a little bit too good for my own comfort. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, but they might, they might get even better. You know, same thing, I think the telehealth model at this point is pretty early. I think that they are still refining how well those things work. I think it’s similar with AI therapy. And, you know, I think the, the tricky thing here as well with any of these technological solutions is that we are also living in a pretty isolated way in our lives right now. If you’re taking even like your therapy to a computer, that’s one less human that you’re interacting with. And maybe you’re, you know, mental health issues are because you’re dealing with isolation, with estrangement, with disconnection. Those feelings might even become more escalated if you’re, you know, using telehealth or using AI therapy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I saw both responses and reflections when I was reading these Reddit threads, you know, from people who were in rural places. I knew that they were feeling more isolated using an AI therapy and others who said, “you know, it was a godsend because I was so alone, at least someone was listening to me. ” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For your story on AI therapy, you talked to a bunch of psychologists and, you know, real-life human psychologists, um and, you know, someone from the American Psychological Association. Are human therapists concerned about being replaced by AI? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t hear that from them yet. Number one, they’re still really in high demand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I don’t think they’re feeling that crunch yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s still a shortage, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s still a huge shortage. And I think, they’re, they’re fairly confident that what they offer is different than what AI therapy offers. And, you know, they can pick up on subtle cues that AI, you know, can’t, say like body language or, you know, pace of speech. These things can reveal a lot about our mental health state, and AI can’t pick up on that stuff. So, and in the deeper bonds, the deeper attachment work that you might do in therapy, I think therapists are quite confident that they’re still better at that. Uh, so in this moment, I would say they’re not, they’re not especially worried. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve talked about the downsides of AI therapy pretty extensively. Um but, you had mentioned like that they can kind of be a tool in a bigger treatment plan while also seeing a real therapist. If someone is going to use AI therapy, how should they approach it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Yeah. I think, that’s the message I hope comes across in my reporting, is that, you know, there are these worst case scenarios. Again, I think that the consumer should be educated on how their data is going to be used and understand how the company operates so that they’re not sharing uh really vulnerable information. But I think as a sort of, you know, addition to your yoga, your meditation, your, uh, you know, walks in nature, I think AI can really be a self-regulation tool. And I think it can be used quite well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I talked to one company, Rosebud, which is a kind of journaling platform, which it asks you questions to kind of inspire you to express whatever’s going on and help you reflect. And it can follow a thread. So if you mentioned something two weeks ago about your relationship and what was going wrong, it will check in with you about what is happening and help you make sense of that. And I was on it. You know, I’m not a huge pen and paper person. You know, I don’t write anything anymore, so my arm hurts really quickly. And so, I enjoy, you know, I like just would pick up my phone and I would journal just, you know, talking to it and it would ask me questions and it felt, you know, fairly similar to a conversation with a friend. And I would always feel quite a bit better afterwards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in that sense, I think it can be quite helpful because, you know, maybe I’m in therapy once a week, but I’m having a panic attack on Monday night and my, you know, appointment is not until Thursday. I think in that sense, you know, it’s four o’clock in the morning. I can’t call a human therapist no matter what, even if I do have one. You know, to sit down and have the opportunity to have something that’s engaging me, um, I think can be really helpful. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m really curious, since you started reporting on this story, have you used ChatGPT, uh, not necessarily as a therapist, but you know, as this kind of mental health tool that you’re talking about since? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wish I had the positive spin to be like, “yes, I’m relying on it all the time.” You know, I didn’t and I don’t. Um, I felt a little bit like one more thing to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I felt similarly, you know, we talked about Lilly at the beginning of the story, and the reason that she stopped using Woebot was not because, you know, it had the crisis alert or it sort of like poorly dealt with her OCD, she got tired of being on her phone. She was like, “I didn’t want to be on my phone anymore. I wanted to talk to someone.”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel that. You know, that was, that was, kind of my reasoning, you know, because of my job, I’m on a computer, you know, nearly all day long, and I didn’t want one more thing on the computer or one more thing on my phone. I can imagine, you know, if I was going through a really tough time again, you know, turning to it. Um, luckily, I’m in a bit of a good moment, so I haven’t been using it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. You can unplug now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. I’m going to enjoy this moment and ride the wave of goodness. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks again to KQED’s Lesley McClurg: for talking with us about this story. You can check out more of her reporting on healthcare, including this story on AI Therapy at KQED.org. Again, AI therapy tools work best when they’re used in addition to treatment under a licensed professional. But if it’s the only option accessible to you right now, there are AI tools specifically designed for mental health and wellness that might be more useful than the general chatbots like ChatGPT or Claude. For now, let’s close these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. If you have feedback, or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "What happens when your therapist is… a chatbot? For KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg, it started with a late-night spiral over dating. Instead of texting a friend, she opened ChatGPT and got the kind of calm, reassuring advice she needed. It worked… maybe a little too well.Lesley joins Morgan to dig into the rise of AI therapy, why so many people are turning to chatbots for emotional support, and what they might be risking in the process. These systems promise something traditional mental health care often can’t: instant, affordable, judgment-free access. But there are limits and, sometimes, serious consequences. Note: This episode includes discussions of suicide and mental health conditions. Listener discretion is advised. This episode first aired on April 23rd, 2025. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happens when your therapist is… a chatbot?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg, it started with a late-night spiral over dating. Instead of texting a friend, she opened ChatGPT and got the kind of calm, reassuring advice she needed. It worked… maybe a little too well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley joins Morgan to dig into the rise of AI therapy, why so many people are turning to chatbots for emotional support, and what they might be risking in the process. These systems promise something traditional mental health care often can’t: instant, affordable, judgment-free access. But there are limits and, sometimes, serious consequences. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Note:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This episode includes discussions of suicide and mental health conditions. Listener discretion is advised.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode first aired on April 23rd, 2025 \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4726760100\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/lesleymcclurg\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley McClurg\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em> health correspondent\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1996504/ai-replace-therapist-benefits-risks-unsettling-truths\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can AI Replace Your Therapist? The Benefits, Risks and Unsettling Truths\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lesley McClurg, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2025/04/07/nx-s1-5351312/artificial-intelligence-mental-health-therapy\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI therapist can see you now\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Katia Riddle, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NPR\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://spectrum.ieee.org/woebot\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woebot, a Mental-Health Chatbot, Tries Out Generative AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Sackett, Devin Harper, and Aaron Pavez, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">IEEE Spectrum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12057327/ai-prophets-and-spiritual-delusions\">AI Prophets and Spiritual Delusions\u003c/a> — \u003ci>Close All Tabs\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/urban-survival/202510/new-studies-reveal-mental-health-blindspots-of-ai-chatbots\">New Studies Reveal Mental Health Blindspots of AI Chatbots\u003c/a> — Marlynn Wei, \u003ci>Psychology Today\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/04/07/nx-s1-5771707/mental-health-care-workforce-artificial-intelligence-ai\">AI in the mental health care workforce is met with fear, pushback — and enthusiasm\u003c/a> — Rhitu Chatterjee, \u003ci>NPR\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey! You’re listening to Close All Tabs, and I’m Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">May is Mental Health Awareness Month. With the proliferation of AI tools over the last few years, many people have turned to chatbots for companionship, advice … and even therapy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It makes sense — healthcare in the US can be completely inaccessible, especially when it comes to mental health treatment. But in some cases, AI chatbots can put very vulnerable users in danger.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In light of that, mental health has been at the forefront of conversations about AI use. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today, for Mental Health Awareness Month, we’re re-airing an episode that explores that exact topic. A quick heads up: this episode includes discussion of suicide and mental health conditions, which may be distressing for some listeners. If you or someone you know needs support, we’ll have links to resources in the episode description.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I was going through a divorce and started dating after my divorce and hadn’t dated in many years and came home after a date one night and was just really anxious and kind of disheveled and needed some advice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was late at night and I had used ChatGPT for, you know, other things and found it pretty helpful and I thought, what about for this moment in my life? And so I asked Chat whether or not I should reach out to this person that I had just dated because I was feeling like the night hadn’t gone that well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was late at night. She didn’t want to bug a friend about this, and really, she was feeling pretty vulnerable. She didn’t want to be judged. And so, ChatGPT was right there, ready to cheerfully answer her questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was surprised that it was so good. I just remember after, you know, a few back and forths, I realized that really I was just nervous, really I just needed to take a deep breath. Basically I had created a big storm in my head. And Chat basically was like, “hey, chill, relax, it could have gone well. There’s another way this could have played out, not the sort of devastating reality that you’re playing out right now. Maybe give it a day or two and then reach out.” And so in that moment, it just sort of helped me take the gas off and come back into myself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was exactly what she needed to hear at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I didn’t text the person, which was the right call, and kind of used it as I warmed myself back up into the dating world, and it was really helpful. And so it made me then, as a reporter, start asking, “should I be telling this thing all about my love life? Is this a good idea, privacy-wise, et cetera?” And so that’s where it sort of seeded my reporting going forward. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley isn’t the only one turning to ChatGPT for therapy. If you’ve ever dealt with any health insurance company, you’re probably familiar with the hassle of getting care. And mental health care is especially inaccessible. AI chatbots though, they’re convenient, cost little to nothing to use, and in Lesley’s case, can actually be pretty helpful. But a lot of people are also wary of turning to AI for therapy, can you trust it? What are you risking when you share your most vulnerable thoughts with a chatbot? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Access to actual mental health resources has become so limited. Cost and insurance aside, there’s a shortage of licensed human mental health professionals across the country. But can AI therapy really replace actual therapists? Okay, new tab. Does AI therapy work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over the course of your reporting, did you meet anyone who actually used an AI chatbot for therapy? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually talked to quite a few people who used AI therapy and I went online and read a lot of Reddit threads because this is quite the popular topic. I heard more positive stories than negatives. As a reporter, I wanted to illustrate someone who kind of had a nuanced experience, you know, good and bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, Lesley found a woman named Lilly Payne:. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She had kind of the ideal story to illustrate that, yes, it helped her, but it wasn’t ideal. And so that was sort of like the character that I ended up, you know, focusing on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In your story, you mentioned that Lilly had turned to AI therapy um during the COVID lockdowns, which were a terrible time for a lot of us. But Lilly wasn’t just experiencing, you know, anxiety and depression and loneliness. Her situation was a little more complicated, right? Can you talk about that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean in her words, her life basically fell apart. She graduated from college, she had moved to New York City to pursue an arts career, was very excited. And if we can remember, you know, New York was sort of the epicenter of the early days of COVID. It was really bad. Lockdown was really scary and the hospitals were overflowing and it was not a good scene. And so she left her arts career, abandoned her dreams and moved back home, which was pretty painful, to her parents’ home in Kentucky. And she is sort of tucked away, and it just felt like a big failure. And she was really struggling with like, what’s next for my life? Where do I go from here? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was such a lonely time for so many people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Lilly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was not at a breaking point, but I wasn’t doing awesome. So I was like, “the more help, the better.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in all of that anxiety, she, you know, initially reached out and leaned on a lot of friends, but eventually she felt like she’d kind of worn those supports thin. And so she read about Woebot, this AI therapy platform in a health newsletter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I gave it a shot because I was like, why not? Everyone’s cooped up in their house. I will talk to this robot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Initially it was really helpful. It did help her calm herself. I think she said she, you know, even just having it in her pocket helped her feel more in control in her life. I think she relied on it quite a bit in those early days to kind of find her ground again and be able to focus on, you know, re-imagining a new life from there while she was back at home with her parents in Kentucky. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s worth noting that Woebot is a therapy-specific AI chatbot, and it doesn’t use generative AI to respond to users the way that other tools like ChatGPT, or Claude, or DeepSeek do. This means that its interactions with users are a bit more predictable. It’s also engineered to respond the way that a therapist might. So instead of immediately jumping into offering advice, Woebot asks specific questions to encourage users to reflect and do the inner work themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, it was designed by a psychologist. And so, you know, from that perspective, it it really is designed to focus on your mental health. The goal of Woebot is, you know, as a mental health tool, as a wellness tool, I think is how they market themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woebot is designed to use a set of techniques called cognitive behavioral therapy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, cognitive behavioral therapy helps you reframe your negative thoughts using specific exercises. And, you know, I think as any CBT, which is what it’s acronym is, it feels a little forced, but she did say it did help her reframe those negative thoughts and that she was able to think more more positively. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Can you talk about uh Lilly’s uh other diagnosis that maybe complicated this form of treatment? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She has obsessive-compulsive disorder, and sometimes that makes her fixate on worst-case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time when people think about OCD they think of, just the very cliche like, “oh, you can’t stop washing your hands, you’re afraid of germs.” While that is a very real subtype that people experience, typically OCD like manifests in really taboo intrusive thoughts, and then the physical compulsions stem from trying to keep those themes away. And so, logically, you can know that, like, this doesn’t make sense, it’s not actually happening, but it just, it, it’s not just in your head, like physically it feels so real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lilly is also diagnosed with anxiety and depression. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A symptom of depression is suicide ideation eventually, right? So she fixated on the idea that eventually because of her depression, that she may think about killing herself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My brain would be like, “Oh, you’ve struggled with depression in the past. There’s no saying that one day you won’t want to go through with suicide.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so she mentioned that she was worried about suicide in a session with Woebot. And Woebot came back and had a crisis alert and said, “hey, you better call the suicide hotline.” And she said, “no, no no, wait a second.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not experiencing suicidal inclinations, I’m just terrified that I will. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And luckily she knew that, she understood her disorder enough to know that nuance and to know what was happening in her brain because she had done so much previous therapy. But she said, you know, if she hadn’t really understood her disease, having that crisis alert come up may have even added more stress. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would have freaked out and been like, “oh my gosh, this this thing that is supposed to have this mental health knowledge thinks that I am suicidal. I must be suicidal, I must be a danger to myself.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, in defense of Woebot, they came back and said, “hey, we’re not, you know, specifically targeting or for people who have OCD. We really are just a wellness tool. “But her story illustrates where AI doesn’t necessarily have the nuance, the understanding — that a human, like a human therapist would have picked up on that. They would have understood that she had OCD and really understood the nuances of that, whereas in this case, Woebot didn’t. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. It sounds like Wobot was inadvertently validating this intrusive thought that she was having because she has OCD. And when you’re really depressed or anxious, it might be helpful for your feelings to be validated like that. But how does that compare to the recommended treatment for OCD? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean the recommended treatment for OCD is generally exposure therapy. So you expose yourself to whatever you’re scared of. And so in this case, a therapist would work with her in terms of exposing herself to those ideas, probably walk her through, you know, reality, et cetera, in a way that allows her to lean into her fears so that they’re not as scary and sort of wound up and keep going. And sort of overtake her. Whereas you, like a therapist wouldn’t stand up with a red flag and say, “Oh my God, you really are suicidal. Therefore you should call a hotline.” Right? Which is basically what Woebot did. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lilly’s case is just one example of the limits of AI therapy. Responding with a crisis alert wasn’t helpful for her specific needs, but it’s probably good that Woebot even has those guardrails in place. But what happens when AI chatbots go off script? How bad can it get? We’ll get into that when we come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New tab. AI therapy … worst case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Woebot can’t necessarily respond with the nuance of an actual human therapist. But it seems like it wasn’t giving Lilly bad advice. Um but let’s talk about examples of AI therapy doing the exact opposite of what it’s supposed to do. What happened with the National Eating Disorder Association hotline? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, that didn’t play out very well. They created a bot named Tessa and some of the users found that Tessa was giving them dieting advice. So these are folks \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh god. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who have, you know, anorexia, bulimia, and somehow Tessa’s wires got crossed and people were getting the exact advice that would be really dangerous for their eating disorders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sharon Maxwell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The recommendations that Tessa gave me was that I could lose one to two pounds per week, that I should eat no more than 2,000 calories in a day, that I should have a calorie deficit of 500 to 1,000 calories per day. All of which might sound benign to the general listener, however, to an individual with an eating disorder, the focus of weight loss really fuels the eating disorder. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Sharon Maxwell, an eating disorder recovery educator, speaking to NPR about her experience with Tessa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, NEDA, the National Eating Disorder Association, you know, pulled Tessa down and said, “this isn’t working very well.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it sounds like they just didn’t have that kind of guardrail in place. Like they didn’t anticipate that. Um, so even if Lilly didn’t really need Woebot to immediately jump into crisis mode, at least it had that guardrail to say, like, “hey, crisis.” But in the past, other AI chatbots have gotten into serious trouble for not responding to users’ red flags and just validating their responses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that happened in the case of Character AI, this AI app that lets users personalize an AI companion based on fictional characters, celebrities, historical figures, all that. Until a recent lawsuit, Character AI did not have any safety measures or disclaimers warning users that they weren’t talking to a real person. What led to this lawsuit? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, there was a 14-year-old who grew really attached to his character that he had created. Like you said, Character AI lets you create a character and then interact with that character. And, you know, not surprisingly, kind of like I did in my first experience with ChatGPT, it feels so good that you develop a little bit of an emotional connection. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so this 14-year-old did that over the course of several months. And then he started opening up about some of the distress that he was feeling. And the character, instead of steering, you know, this 14-year-old towards help, unfortunately the bot allegedly reinforced some suicidal thoughts and eventually the boy ended up taking his life. And so the lawsuit, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s terrible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly, it was really kind of horrific and it’s not the only one like this. There’s only a handful at this point, but it really is raising the red flag that these very empathetic responses are sort of like, you know parroting back, which is, again, what some AI does. Uh it can play out really, really poorly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In January 2026, Character.AI agreed to settle multiple lawsuits that alleged that the chatbot contributed to mental health issues among teenagers. Other companies have faced similar lawsuits, after several users died by suicide, allegedly at the encouragement of chatbots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what happened with the eating disorder hotline and Character AI, those are pretty extreme cases. Will most people actually experience those worst case scenarios? In your research, did you find anything about that? Or is it just like, are these just edge cases? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean we don’t have numbers yet. I think it’s really early in the arc of this technology. I think the experts are most worried about platforms that are like Character AI, where you are building a relationship with a character. In their defense, they’re not built as mental health tools, right? These are not marketing themselves as mental health tools. They are, you know, marketing themselves as, “hey, here, we’re going to give you a friend.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yet, you know, like a friend, like you and I probably do with our friends, we lean on our friends. We talk to our friends. We build emotional connections with our friends. We trust our friends for the right advice, right? And these are robots. So that relationship is not uh, you know, built on human connection. And like we can see it can go wrong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another concern that I have, you know, as a tech reporter is uh privacy. ChatGPT, for example, isn’t HIPAA compliant. Could you explain what HIPPA is and why it’s necessary with medical information? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean HIPAA is the regulation that keeps all of our data safe. So when you go to the doctor, a doctor is required to keep all of your medical information, you know, totally private. It’s not going to be given anywhere. It’s not going to leak away. That is the privacy regulations. Now, some of these platforms, you know, for example, like Woebot, uh Rosebud is one, which is a platform that’s more like a journaling service. Uh you know, they say they’re HIPAA compliant, but there’s no one regulating them. It’s not like the American Medical Association is regulating them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, that data, you don’t really know where it’s going. You’re trusting these companies who are profit driven. You know, I mean, hopefully Woebot and Rosebud, you know, are following their own promises to their consumers. But there might be other companies that, you know, definitely ChatGPT is not, you know, promising that they’re HIPAA compliant. And, you know, that information is being used, is being put out there to retrain the model. And so, you know, hopefully they’re not gonna sell your data to advertisers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, also, I mean, the kind of a worst-case scenario, this fortunately hasn’t happened yet, but, you know, what if your mental health information gets out there, an insurance company gets wind of that, and your premiums start going up because they know that you’re struggling with something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, again, that hasn’t happen yet. Those are sort of like the worst- case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But again, worst-case scenarios. Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Obviously, the priority of pretty much any for profit company is to monetize. But, do AI companies have any incentive to improve as more people turn to their products for therapy, even if they aren’t necessarily mental health specific chatbots? Um, you know, are there better safety measures, more transparency about data collection, especially given the Character AI lawsuit? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think they have that incentive. They also have the incentive to keep you hooked. So I think that’s the sort of like fine line. We’ve seen that with all social media, right? They’re getting a lot better at keeping our attention. AI companies have the same needs and incentives to keep people coming back. And so, you know, I think it’s gonna be a gray area and it’s going to be, unfortunately, like the social media companies, it’s gonna be really up to the creators of these products on whether or not they’re gonna have a really ethical orientation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite all of these issues, therapy is so inaccessible that unfortunately, AI chatbots might feel like the only immediate tool that people have when seeking treatment. How did we get here? Let’s open one last tab. The mental healthcare crisis. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You had mentioned earlier the state of mental health care. Why is it so hard to see a therapist? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, the demand for mental health services is really at an all-time high, and it’s surged even more, you know, since the pandemic began and continues to do so. I think there’s something like one in five Americans have some kind of a mental health issue, and yet they have a significant barrier to getting to a therapist. You know, I think it’s 55% of counties, people don’t have access to a psychotherapist or a social worker or a psychologist. They’re just aren’t any in that area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, you know, I think because of this issue that these sort of mental health deserts, AI is a kind of natural fill-in. You know, It’s available 24-7. You don’t need insurance to get there. You don’t have a high deductible. Uh, you don’t have to prove to anyone that, you know, that you have a mental health condition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You don’t get accepted. Uh, so it’s easy and accessible. And I think that it will mean that more and more people are going to use this and hopefully, they’ll be well-informed consumers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. You know, given the shortage of providers, and like you mentioned, insurance issues. Um, since the pandemic started, telehealth therapy has become pretty popular. But I’ve seen a lot of complaints about these kind of quick, one-size-fits-all mental health care platforms like BetterHelp, which matches users with Licensed Therapist or Cerebral, which sets users up with a psychiatrist that can prescribe medications like antidepressants or ADHD meds. And both of these services were created to, kind of fill this void that you’re talking about, but at the same time, they’re kind of plagued with their own issues. It seems like making therapy quick and accessible isn’t always as easy as it seems. What do you think? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there’s absolutely a role for telehealth. I think there’s absolutely a role for AI therapy. I think anyone would probably say that having a really heartfelt connection with a therapist in an office, live human, feels different than if you are talking to a screen. And the emotional repair that can happen in that session with a live human I think is different and potentially more profound than with a robot. That might change over time. You know, I don’t know how good these things are going to get. They already feel a little bit too good for my own comfort. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, but they might, they might get even better. You know, same thing, I think the telehealth model at this point is pretty early. I think that they are still refining how well those things work. I think it’s similar with AI therapy. And, you know, I think the, the tricky thing here as well with any of these technological solutions is that we are also living in a pretty isolated way in our lives right now. If you’re taking even like your therapy to a computer, that’s one less human that you’re interacting with. And maybe you’re, you know, mental health issues are because you’re dealing with isolation, with estrangement, with disconnection. Those feelings might even become more escalated if you’re, you know, using telehealth or using AI therapy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I saw both responses and reflections when I was reading these Reddit threads, you know, from people who were in rural places. I knew that they were feeling more isolated using an AI therapy and others who said, “you know, it was a godsend because I was so alone, at least someone was listening to me. ” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For your story on AI therapy, you talked to a bunch of psychologists and, you know, real-life human psychologists, um and, you know, someone from the American Psychological Association. Are human therapists concerned about being replaced by AI? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t hear that from them yet. Number one, they’re still really in high demand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I don’t think they’re feeling that crunch yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s still a shortage, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s still a huge shortage. And I think, they’re, they’re fairly confident that what they offer is different than what AI therapy offers. And, you know, they can pick up on subtle cues that AI, you know, can’t, say like body language or, you know, pace of speech. These things can reveal a lot about our mental health state, and AI can’t pick up on that stuff. So, and in the deeper bonds, the deeper attachment work that you might do in therapy, I think therapists are quite confident that they’re still better at that. Uh, so in this moment, I would say they’re not, they’re not especially worried. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve talked about the downsides of AI therapy pretty extensively. Um but, you had mentioned like that they can kind of be a tool in a bigger treatment plan while also seeing a real therapist. If someone is going to use AI therapy, how should they approach it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Yeah. I think, that’s the message I hope comes across in my reporting, is that, you know, there are these worst case scenarios. Again, I think that the consumer should be educated on how their data is going to be used and understand how the company operates so that they’re not sharing uh really vulnerable information. But I think as a sort of, you know, addition to your yoga, your meditation, your, uh, you know, walks in nature, I think AI can really be a self-regulation tool. And I think it can be used quite well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I talked to one company, Rosebud, which is a kind of journaling platform, which it asks you questions to kind of inspire you to express whatever’s going on and help you reflect. And it can follow a thread. So if you mentioned something two weeks ago about your relationship and what was going wrong, it will check in with you about what is happening and help you make sense of that. And I was on it. You know, I’m not a huge pen and paper person. You know, I don’t write anything anymore, so my arm hurts really quickly. And so, I enjoy, you know, I like just would pick up my phone and I would journal just, you know, talking to it and it would ask me questions and it felt, you know, fairly similar to a conversation with a friend. And I would always feel quite a bit better afterwards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in that sense, I think it can be quite helpful because, you know, maybe I’m in therapy once a week, but I’m having a panic attack on Monday night and my, you know, appointment is not until Thursday. I think in that sense, you know, it’s four o’clock in the morning. I can’t call a human therapist no matter what, even if I do have one. You know, to sit down and have the opportunity to have something that’s engaging me, um, I think can be really helpful. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m really curious, since you started reporting on this story, have you used ChatGPT, uh, not necessarily as a therapist, but you know, as this kind of mental health tool that you’re talking about since? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wish I had the positive spin to be like, “yes, I’m relying on it all the time.” You know, I didn’t and I don’t. Um, I felt a little bit like one more thing to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I felt similarly, you know, we talked about Lilly at the beginning of the story, and the reason that she stopped using Woebot was not because, you know, it had the crisis alert or it sort of like poorly dealt with her OCD, she got tired of being on her phone. She was like, “I didn’t want to be on my phone anymore. I wanted to talk to someone.”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel that. You know, that was, that was, kind of my reasoning, you know, because of my job, I’m on a computer, you know, nearly all day long, and I didn’t want one more thing on the computer or one more thing on my phone. I can imagine, you know, if I was going through a really tough time again, you know, turning to it. Um, luckily, I’m in a bit of a good moment, so I haven’t been using it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. You can unplug now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. I’m going to enjoy this moment and ride the wave of goodness. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks again to KQED’s Lesley McClurg: for talking with us about this story. You can check out more of her reporting on healthcare, including this story on AI Therapy at KQED.org. Again, AI therapy tools work best when they’re used in addition to treatment under a licensed professional. But if it’s the only option accessible to you right now, there are AI tools specifically designed for mental health and wellness that might be more useful than the general chatbots like ChatGPT or Claude. For now, let’s close these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. If you have feedback, or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Are Elon Musk and OpenAI Fighting an AI Arms Race? Sam Altman’s Lawyers Think So",
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"content": "\u003cp>As Elon Musk’s dayslong testimony in his \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12081290/how-to-unscramble-an-omelet-in-silicon-valley-the-musk-v-altman-trial-that-will-try\">case against OpenAI co-founder Sam Altman\u003c/a> came to a close Thursday, defense attorneys aimed to paint the world’s richest man as intent on dominating artificial intelligence — not on protecting the world from it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Under cross-examination in an Oakland court, attorneys for Altman and Microsoft, the company’s largest financial backer and which until this week held the exclusive rights to license and sell its technology, held Musk’s feet to the fire about a number of business moves he’s made — both within and outside of OpenAI — that might give jurors pause about whether he operated so differently from his former colleagues in the race to dominate the field.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During hours of testimony, Musk has told the court that he cofounded the nonprofit OpenAI with Altman and OpenAI President Greg Brockman\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12081603/elon-musk-takes-aim-at-openai-as-trial-begins-its-not-ok-to-steal-a-charity\"> in 2015 altruistically\u003c/a>, fearing the dangers of AI and wanting to ensure that the technology was developed in a safe and open-source way. He brought the suit, he said, after deciding that his co-founders \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12081798/elon-musk-says-sam-altman-tricked-him-into-funding-openai\">had betrayed that intention\u003c/a> — expanding the company into a tech behemoth valued at $852 billion today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Microsoft attorney Russell Cohen seemed to point to a different motivation: a desire to beat OpenAI and win the AI race.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You didn’t sue Microsoft [and OpenAI] until November 2024, correct?” Cohen said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Yes,” Musk said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And that is after you formed your own AI company, xAI, correct?” Cohen said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Yes,” Musk said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081637\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081637\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-01-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-01-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-01-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">OpenAI’s lead counsel William Savitt presents opening statements in the trial in which Elon Musk claims that Sam Altman and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity, rather than solely for profit in Oakland on April 28, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The questions came after William Savitt, Altman’s attorney, directed the jury’s attention to a bombshell message Musk sent to Mark Zuckerberg in February 2025, asking whether the Meta CEO would be “open to the idea of bidding on the OpenAI IP,” or intellectual property, with Musk and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The jury also learned that xAI had partially “distilled,” that is, derived technology from OpenAI’s own models, which violates OpenAI’s terms of service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The pointed inquiries on Thursday came after Musk’s testimony started to bring the events of how OpenAI launched its first for-profit subsidiary into focus. In 2017, executives including Altman, Musk, Brockman and Ilya Sutskever, a top computer scientist at the company since its founding, launched discussions about creating a for-profit subsidiary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It would be, they said, a way to bring in additional funding and keep at the cutting edge of a growing field of competitors as they started pursuing artificial general intelligence — commonly referred to as AGI — a futuristic superintelligent AI technology.[aside postID=news_12081798 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED-1.jpg']Altman’s defense has alleged that throughout that process, Musk attempted to “wrest control” of the company twice, first insisting that he hold a majority equity stake in any for-profit entity, control its board of directors and serve as CEO, and later, that OpenAI be folded into Tesla, where he already serves as CEO.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Savitt said Musk began withholding $5 million quarterly fund contributions to put pressure on the company to grant his requests, and after those attempts failed, he left the company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Savitt also accused Musk of poaching OpenAI employees as Musk exited in early 2018, including founding member Andrej Karpathy, for Tesla.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk said multiple times that Tesla is not pursuing AGI. But in March, Musk \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/elonmusk/status/2029123591871308272?lang=en\">wrote on the social media platform X\u003c/a> that “Tesla will be one of the companies to make AGI and probably the first to make it in humanoid/atom-shaping form.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Separately, he formed xAI in 2023, which he said is pursuing AGI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He’s downplayed its competitiveness with OpenAI, though, testifying that it has just a couple hundred employees and a “small market share.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I would say technically competitive, but much smaller than OpenAI,” Musk said Tuesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_10734536\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-10734536\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/10/StuartRussell.jpg\" alt='Stuart Russell, UC Berkeley computer science professor and co-author of the standard textbook \"Artificial Intelligence: a Modern Approach.\"' width=\"1920\" height=\"1320\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/10/StuartRussell.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/10/StuartRussell-400x275.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/10/StuartRussell-800x550.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/10/StuartRussell-1440x990.jpg 1440w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/10/StuartRussell-1180x811.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/10/StuartRussell-960x660.jpg 960w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stuart Russell, UC Berkeley computer science professor and co-author of the standard textbook “Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach.” \u003ccite>(Juan Mabromata/AFP via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The three days of Musk’s testimony got testy at times, particularly during Savitt’s cross-examination on Wednesday afternoon, when Savitt and U.S. District Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers asked Musk repeatedly to answer the questions he was asked. Musk accused Savitt of intentionally misleading him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the most heated moment thus far might have come before the jury was called to the courtroom on Thursday morning, during a discussion about what AI safety expert Stuart Russell, who is taking the stand this afternoon, will be willing to testify to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk’s attorney argued he should be allowed to speak about the climate risk associated with AI, saying: “We could all die.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is also ironic that your client, despite these risks, is creating a company in the exact space,” Gonzalez Rogers said. “I suspect that there are people who don’t want to put the future in Mr. Musk’s hands.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>As Elon Musk’s dayslong testimony in his \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12081290/how-to-unscramble-an-omelet-in-silicon-valley-the-musk-v-altman-trial-that-will-try\">case against OpenAI co-founder Sam Altman\u003c/a> came to a close Thursday, defense attorneys aimed to paint the world’s richest man as intent on dominating artificial intelligence — not on protecting the world from it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Under cross-examination in an Oakland court, attorneys for Altman and Microsoft, the company’s largest financial backer and which until this week held the exclusive rights to license and sell its technology, held Musk’s feet to the fire about a number of business moves he’s made — both within and outside of OpenAI — that might give jurors pause about whether he operated so differently from his former colleagues in the race to dominate the field.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During hours of testimony, Musk has told the court that he cofounded the nonprofit OpenAI with Altman and OpenAI President Greg Brockman\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12081603/elon-musk-takes-aim-at-openai-as-trial-begins-its-not-ok-to-steal-a-charity\"> in 2015 altruistically\u003c/a>, fearing the dangers of AI and wanting to ensure that the technology was developed in a safe and open-source way. He brought the suit, he said, after deciding that his co-founders \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12081798/elon-musk-says-sam-altman-tricked-him-into-funding-openai\">had betrayed that intention\u003c/a> — expanding the company into a tech behemoth valued at $852 billion today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Microsoft attorney Russell Cohen seemed to point to a different motivation: a desire to beat OpenAI and win the AI race.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You didn’t sue Microsoft [and OpenAI] until November 2024, correct?” Cohen said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Yes,” Musk said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And that is after you formed your own AI company, xAI, correct?” Cohen said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Yes,” Musk said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081637\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081637\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-01-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-01-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-01-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">OpenAI’s lead counsel William Savitt presents opening statements in the trial in which Elon Musk claims that Sam Altman and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity, rather than solely for profit in Oakland on April 28, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The questions came after William Savitt, Altman’s attorney, directed the jury’s attention to a bombshell message Musk sent to Mark Zuckerberg in February 2025, asking whether the Meta CEO would be “open to the idea of bidding on the OpenAI IP,” or intellectual property, with Musk and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The jury also learned that xAI had partially “distilled,” that is, derived technology from OpenAI’s own models, which violates OpenAI’s terms of service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The pointed inquiries on Thursday came after Musk’s testimony started to bring the events of how OpenAI launched its first for-profit subsidiary into focus. In 2017, executives including Altman, Musk, Brockman and Ilya Sutskever, a top computer scientist at the company since its founding, launched discussions about creating a for-profit subsidiary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It would be, they said, a way to bring in additional funding and keep at the cutting edge of a growing field of competitors as they started pursuing artificial general intelligence — commonly referred to as AGI — a futuristic superintelligent AI technology.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Altman’s defense has alleged that throughout that process, Musk attempted to “wrest control” of the company twice, first insisting that he hold a majority equity stake in any for-profit entity, control its board of directors and serve as CEO, and later, that OpenAI be folded into Tesla, where he already serves as CEO.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Savitt said Musk began withholding $5 million quarterly fund contributions to put pressure on the company to grant his requests, and after those attempts failed, he left the company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Savitt also accused Musk of poaching OpenAI employees as Musk exited in early 2018, including founding member Andrej Karpathy, for Tesla.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk said multiple times that Tesla is not pursuing AGI. But in March, Musk \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/elonmusk/status/2029123591871308272?lang=en\">wrote on the social media platform X\u003c/a> that “Tesla will be one of the companies to make AGI and probably the first to make it in humanoid/atom-shaping form.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Separately, he formed xAI in 2023, which he said is pursuing AGI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He’s downplayed its competitiveness with OpenAI, though, testifying that it has just a couple hundred employees and a “small market share.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I would say technically competitive, but much smaller than OpenAI,” Musk said Tuesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_10734536\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-10734536\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/10/StuartRussell.jpg\" alt='Stuart Russell, UC Berkeley computer science professor and co-author of the standard textbook \"Artificial Intelligence: a Modern Approach.\"' width=\"1920\" height=\"1320\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/10/StuartRussell.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/10/StuartRussell-400x275.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/10/StuartRussell-800x550.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/10/StuartRussell-1440x990.jpg 1440w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/10/StuartRussell-1180x811.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/10/StuartRussell-960x660.jpg 960w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stuart Russell, UC Berkeley computer science professor and co-author of the standard textbook “Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach.” \u003ccite>(Juan Mabromata/AFP via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The three days of Musk’s testimony got testy at times, particularly during Savitt’s cross-examination on Wednesday afternoon, when Savitt and U.S. District Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers asked Musk repeatedly to answer the questions he was asked. Musk accused Savitt of intentionally misleading him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the most heated moment thus far might have come before the jury was called to the courtroom on Thursday morning, during a discussion about what AI safety expert Stuart Russell, who is taking the stand this afternoon, will be willing to testify to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk’s attorney argued he should be allowed to speak about the climate risk associated with AI, saying: “We could all die.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is also ironic that your client, despite these risks, is creating a company in the exact space,” Gonzalez Rogers said. “I suspect that there are people who don’t want to put the future in Mr. Musk’s hands.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>During the second day of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12081603/elon-musk-takes-aim-at-openai-as-trial-begins-its-not-ok-to-steal-a-charity\">landmark trial between Sam Altman and Elon Musk\u003c/a>, the Tesla founder told the Oakland courthouse that he was a “fool” to fund OpenAI through its early years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Testifying in the lawsuit he brought against Altman, which claims the company’s creators betrayed their mission for profits, Musk suggested Wednesday that Altman and cofounder Greg Brockman wanted to “have your cake and eat it too.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If you go nonprofit, you’ve got a sort of moral high ground,” he testified.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk’s testimony tells one version of founding OpenAI: that he, fearing the dangers of artificial intelligence, pursued its development with the goal of benefiting the common good, alongside, he thought, like-minded collaborators. But behind the scenes, those cofounders engaged in a “long con” to profit at his expense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What they really wanted was a for-profit, where they could make as much money as possible,” Musk said later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whether the jury believes him will be integral to the decision they’re tasked with making, as they determine whether OpenAI breached charitable trust and engaged in unjust enrichment as it evolved from a nonprofit organization to its current $730 billion iteration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Under cross-examination, Altman’s attorney, William Savitt, questioned Musk’s story and credibility as an altruistic benefactor. He pointed to an email Musk sent to Altman in 2015, which said it would be “probably better” if OpenAI operated as a for-profit company with a parallel nonprofit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081637\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081637\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-01-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-01-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-01-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">OpenAI’s lead counsel, William Savitt, presents opening statements in the trial in which Elon Musk claims that Sam Altman and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity, rather than solely for profit, in Oakland on April 28, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In another email sent to colleagues at his neurotechnology company, Neuralink, Musk said that Google’s AI development was moving very fast, and that he was concerned OpenAI was not on the path to catch up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Setting it up as a nonprofit might, in hindsight, have been the wrong move,” Musk wrote. “Sense of urgency is not as high.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Savitt asked if, in 2017, Musk suggested at a party that OpenAI should create a for-profit. He said it was just after the company’s AI model had beaten \u003cem>Defense of the Ancients, \u003c/em>a battle video game, which was a pivotal moment in the development process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk said he didn’t remember giving instructions to create a for-profit at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This was nine years ago,” he said.[aside postID=news_12081603 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-02-KQED.jpg']Savitt said Tuesday that in 2017, OpenAI executives, including Musk, were in the midst of conversations about whether and how to transition the company to a for-profit structure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to OpenAI’s court filings, as early as summer 2017, Musk had insisted on holding a majority equity stake in any for-profit entity, serving as CEO and controlling its board of directors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pressed by Savitt about what Musk meant by “expressing what you said about control,” the Tesla founder and billionaire said: “I try to be as literal as possible.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the fall of 2017, Brockman and Ilya Sutskever, another top OpenAI executive, emailed Musk with concerns about the for-profit structure he proposed. Shortly thereafter, discussions over the structure collapsed, and Musk stopped making significant quarterly funding contributions, OpenAI alleges.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He left the company less than six months later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Savitt framed the breakdown and Musk’s exit as a result of his not getting control of the for-profit, and the other executives’ focus on maintaining its philanthropic mission. He suggested that Musk tried to pressure them to accept his terms by pausing the majority of his financial backing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You knew that would create financial pressure for the organization,” Savitt said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081686\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081686\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Steve Molo, Elon Musk’s attorney, presents opening statements in the trial in which Elon Musk (center-right) claims that Sam Altman (right) and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity, rather than solely for profit, in Oakland on April 28, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Musk denied that was his intention. Instead, he alleged that Altman convinced Brockman and the others to go against his proposal, and that their concern over his desire for control was disingenuous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m not going to fund something if I don’t have confidence in the people,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When asked whether he proposed that OpenAI be folded into Tesla, Musk said: “There were a lot of ideas that were brainstormed at the time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In an email, he wrote that doing so would be the “only path that could even hope to hold a candle to Google.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk said he left OpenAI in February 2018 because he was focused on Tesla’s survival, and believed that OpenAI intended to continue operating as a nonprofit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Savitt also laid out a series of exchanges between Musk and Altman, in which the OpenAI CEO kept him apprised of the company’s corporate structure. He said in March 2018, Musk responded to an email that noted the creation of a for-profit entity of OpenAI with “OK by me,” and was sent a term sheet for OpenAI LP that summer.[aside postID=news_12081290 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260422-ALTMANMUSK-MD-01-KQED.jpg']Savitt also said Altman emailed Musk a draft of the company’s public announcement of its for-profit arm in March 2019, and texted him asking if he had time to talk about Microsoft’s plan to invest in OpenAI. Musk never responded to that text, according to Savitt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk said he was busy with his other companies in 2018, and while he was aware that it had added a for-profit entity, he hadn’t lost complete faith in the company. While he’d suspended quarterly $5 million funding contributions prior to his departure, he continued to make some contributions until 2020.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said that he’d gone from enthusiastically supportive to uncertain about OpenAI’s mission, but that he’d fully suspended his contributions when he felt that the company was “deliberately not a nonprofit.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When asked why he waited until 2024 to bring the suit, Musk said that’s when he determined OpenAI breached charitable trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Thinking that someone might steal your car is not the same as [if] someone has stolen your car,” Musk said. He said after enlisting his attorney, Alex Spiro, to investigate, he heard from him in 2023 that “the car had been stolen.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I would have sued sooner if I thought the charity had been stolen sooner,” Musk continued.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The trial and Musk’s testimony are expected to continue on Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>During the second day of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12081603/elon-musk-takes-aim-at-openai-as-trial-begins-its-not-ok-to-steal-a-charity\">landmark trial between Sam Altman and Elon Musk\u003c/a>, the Tesla founder told the Oakland courthouse that he was a “fool” to fund OpenAI through its early years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Testifying in the lawsuit he brought against Altman, which claims the company’s creators betrayed their mission for profits, Musk suggested Wednesday that Altman and cofounder Greg Brockman wanted to “have your cake and eat it too.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If you go nonprofit, you’ve got a sort of moral high ground,” he testified.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk’s testimony tells one version of founding OpenAI: that he, fearing the dangers of artificial intelligence, pursued its development with the goal of benefiting the common good, alongside, he thought, like-minded collaborators. But behind the scenes, those cofounders engaged in a “long con” to profit at his expense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What they really wanted was a for-profit, where they could make as much money as possible,” Musk said later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whether the jury believes him will be integral to the decision they’re tasked with making, as they determine whether OpenAI breached charitable trust and engaged in unjust enrichment as it evolved from a nonprofit organization to its current $730 billion iteration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Under cross-examination, Altman’s attorney, William Savitt, questioned Musk’s story and credibility as an altruistic benefactor. He pointed to an email Musk sent to Altman in 2015, which said it would be “probably better” if OpenAI operated as a for-profit company with a parallel nonprofit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081637\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081637\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-01-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-01-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-01-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">OpenAI’s lead counsel, William Savitt, presents opening statements in the trial in which Elon Musk claims that Sam Altman and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity, rather than solely for profit, in Oakland on April 28, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In another email sent to colleagues at his neurotechnology company, Neuralink, Musk said that Google’s AI development was moving very fast, and that he was concerned OpenAI was not on the path to catch up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Setting it up as a nonprofit might, in hindsight, have been the wrong move,” Musk wrote. “Sense of urgency is not as high.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Savitt asked if, in 2017, Musk suggested at a party that OpenAI should create a for-profit. He said it was just after the company’s AI model had beaten \u003cem>Defense of the Ancients, \u003c/em>a battle video game, which was a pivotal moment in the development process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk said he didn’t remember giving instructions to create a for-profit at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This was nine years ago,” he said.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Savitt said Tuesday that in 2017, OpenAI executives, including Musk, were in the midst of conversations about whether and how to transition the company to a for-profit structure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to OpenAI’s court filings, as early as summer 2017, Musk had insisted on holding a majority equity stake in any for-profit entity, serving as CEO and controlling its board of directors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pressed by Savitt about what Musk meant by “expressing what you said about control,” the Tesla founder and billionaire said: “I try to be as literal as possible.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the fall of 2017, Brockman and Ilya Sutskever, another top OpenAI executive, emailed Musk with concerns about the for-profit structure he proposed. Shortly thereafter, discussions over the structure collapsed, and Musk stopped making significant quarterly funding contributions, OpenAI alleges.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He left the company less than six months later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Savitt framed the breakdown and Musk’s exit as a result of his not getting control of the for-profit, and the other executives’ focus on maintaining its philanthropic mission. He suggested that Musk tried to pressure them to accept his terms by pausing the majority of his financial backing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You knew that would create financial pressure for the organization,” Savitt said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081686\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081686\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Steve Molo, Elon Musk’s attorney, presents opening statements in the trial in which Elon Musk (center-right) claims that Sam Altman (right) and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity, rather than solely for profit, in Oakland on April 28, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Musk denied that was his intention. Instead, he alleged that Altman convinced Brockman and the others to go against his proposal, and that their concern over his desire for control was disingenuous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m not going to fund something if I don’t have confidence in the people,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When asked whether he proposed that OpenAI be folded into Tesla, Musk said: “There were a lot of ideas that were brainstormed at the time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In an email, he wrote that doing so would be the “only path that could even hope to hold a candle to Google.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk said he left OpenAI in February 2018 because he was focused on Tesla’s survival, and believed that OpenAI intended to continue operating as a nonprofit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Savitt also laid out a series of exchanges between Musk and Altman, in which the OpenAI CEO kept him apprised of the company’s corporate structure. He said in March 2018, Musk responded to an email that noted the creation of a for-profit entity of OpenAI with “OK by me,” and was sent a term sheet for OpenAI LP that summer.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Savitt also said Altman emailed Musk a draft of the company’s public announcement of its for-profit arm in March 2019, and texted him asking if he had time to talk about Microsoft’s plan to invest in OpenAI. Musk never responded to that text, according to Savitt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk said he was busy with his other companies in 2018, and while he was aware that it had added a for-profit entity, he hadn’t lost complete faith in the company. While he’d suspended quarterly $5 million funding contributions prior to his departure, he continued to make some contributions until 2020.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said that he’d gone from enthusiastically supportive to uncertain about OpenAI’s mission, but that he’d fully suspended his contributions when he felt that the company was “deliberately not a nonprofit.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When asked why he waited until 2024 to bring the suit, Musk said that’s when he determined OpenAI breached charitable trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Thinking that someone might steal your car is not the same as [if] someone has stolen your car,” Musk said. He said after enlisting his attorney, Alex Spiro, to investigate, he heard from him in 2023 that “the car had been stolen.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I would have sued sooner if I thought the charity had been stolen sooner,” Musk continued.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The trial and Musk’s testimony are expected to continue on Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Somebody’s Watching Me: The Crackdown on Stalkerware",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2018, researcher Eva Galperin made a discovery about a colleague. He had been sexually abusing women for decades, and threatening to expose their private information using “stalkerware” — hidden applications that allow people to spy on another person’s private life through their mobile device. This set Eva on a new path. She went on to found the Coalition Against Stalkerware, a network of researchers and advocacy groups working to limit the spread of stalkerware and support survivors of tech-enabled abuse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eva joins Morgan to talk about how her background in cybersecurity allowed her to help countless survivors of stalkerware abuse, and how activists and researchers are beginning to turn the tide against a sprawling, largely hidden industry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4327771430\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/about/staff/eva-galperin\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eva Galperin\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, director of cybersecurity at the Electronic Frontier Foundation\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://stopstalkerware.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is stalkerware?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Coalition Against Stalkerware \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://techcrunch.com/2026/02/09/hacked-leaked-exposed-why-you-should-stop-using-stalkerware-apps/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hacked, leaked, exposed: Why you should never use stalkerware apps\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lorenzo Franceschi-Bicchierai, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TechCrunch \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/21/17035552/sexual-assault-harassment-whisper-network-reporting-failure-marquis-boire\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When whisper networks let us down\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Sarah Jeong, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.vice.com/en/article/spyware-company-spyfone-terabytes-data-exposed-online-leak/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Spyware Company Leaves ‘Terabytes’ of Selfies, Text Messages, and Location Data Exposed Online\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lorenzo Franceschi-Bicchierai, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Vice \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://techcrunch.com/2021/10/19/stalkerware-security-phone-data-thousands/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A massive ‘stalkerware’ leak puts the phone data of thousands at risk \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Zack Whittaker, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TechCrunch \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://techcrunch.com/2022/12/17/support-king-ftc-spytrac/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Support King, banned by FTC, linked to new phone spying operation\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Zack Whittaker, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TechCrunch \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2025/11/eff-teams-av-comparatives-test-android-stalkerware-detection-major-antivirus-apps\">EFF Teams Up With AV Comparatives to Test Android Stalkerware Detection by Major Antivirus Apps \u003c/a>— Eva Galperin, \u003ci>Electronic Frontier Foundation\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tags on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends, post about it on Instagram, Blue Sky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to just get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just a note, this episode contains mentions of sexual assault and domestic violence, so listen with care. Eva Galperin is the Director of Cybersecurity at the Electronic Frontier Foundation. In some circles, she’s reluctantly known as the privacy pope.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People would come to me telling me about incredibly privacy invasive stuff that they had done as if they were looking to confess their sins and hoping that I would bless them. And the whole point of this is, in fact, that I am not the privacy pope.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eva may not be the privacy pope, but she has been working to protect the privacy of vulnerable people for years. In the early 2010s, she was a security researcher. She compiled information on governments that use surveillance malware to target journalists and activists.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in late 2017, it came out that the primary person with whom I was doing all of this security research was a serial rapist.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eva had been working with his colleague for years. He was a fellow researcher, known for defending human rights activists and journalists in repressive countries. Behind closed doors, he had been secretly abusing and assaulting women for over a decade, and he kept them quiet with a threat of hacking. In a series of articles in The Verge in 2018, many of his survivors explained why they were so afraid to come forward.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It really struck me how much they all described themselves as really scared of what he might do to their devices, because apparently he had threatened to compromise their devices if they came out and said anything about him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The survivors were scared of stalkerware, that software that’s often covertly installed on a device to track and record the user’s activity. It goes further than location sharing. This is software that the user is not aware of and doesn’t consent to. Stalkerware can log messages, internet history, photos, and pretty much any sensitive activity or information. The person who installed it can then turn around and use this information to harass, monitor, and coerce their target. That’s what the victims of this former colleague were so afraid of.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was very upsetting. And as with anything, when you suddenly discover that someone is not the person that you think they are, you go back and think about incidents and go, oh, there were signs I should have known. And you spend a lot of time beating yourself up. But I decided that beating myself up is not best use of my time. And that helping people is the best use my time. I was so mad. So I did what most people did in the year 2018 when they got very angry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What Eva did next started a chain reaction, one that led her to build a network aimed at taking down a massive shadowy industry of illegal software developers creating surveillance tools for tech savvy abusers. Today, we’re diving into the fight against stalkerware. What the software really does, how Eva and others have been working together to protect survivors, and the legal gray areas that make this industry so hard to take down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Morgan Sung and this is Close All Tabs. Ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, before we get into the fight, we need to understand what we’re dealing with. And for that, we need open a new tab: What is stalkerware?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stalkerware is a form of tech-enabled abuse, the umbrella of digital tools and tactics that abusers use to control, harass, and intimidate their victims. A common version might look like parental monitoring apps that can run in the background and provide live access to the device’s location, text messages, and social media activity. Eva said that stalkerware works differently depending on the operating system. Androids and iPhones have different security measures. If you have an Android, the abuser needs to actually download an app onto your phone. To do that, they need to have your phone’s password. Eva says this isn’t the barrier you might think it is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This whole idea of like, well, just don’t give the abuser your password. Uh, you know, I’ve got news for you about how abuse works. So it is very common for abusers to have physical access to the device, to have the password for the device. And when the survivor isn’t looking, when they have their back turned, when they’re in the other room, uh, they download the app.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stalkerware generally isn’t allowed on Google’s Store, so a lot of these apps are downloaded from websites. They don’t appear as normal apps do. They’re hidden. If you don’t know that it’s there, then you don’t know to delete it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The stalker then logs into a website usually and they pay money to the company for access to the portal which gives them information about what is happening on your phone. Sometimes that can be your SMS messages, your WhatsApp messages, all of your passwords. There can be a keylogger on there so just like every key that you hit could possibly be logged, photos being shared. You can sometimes remotely access the camera without setting off a little light that tells you the camera is on, or remotely set off the microphone for recording, which is also very invasive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most people carry their phones everywhere they go, which means that stalkerware that tracks real-time location and sends out GPS data is particularly prevalent. If you use an iPhone, the process looks a little different. Abusers typically steal their victim’s Apple ID password.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, a thing that you can get if you are an abuser because that’s how abuse works.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they may also need physical access to the phone, which abusers likely already have.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then the stalkerware, which is using the Apple ID, then just makes covert full backups of the phone. You will not get real-time information, but you will essentially get information about once every 24 hours if you are spying on an iPhone.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stalkerware, for the most part, is illegal across the world, but it’s a tricky field to regulate, especially in the U.S. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Writing stalkerware is not illegal, you know, code is speech, it’s protected by the First Amendment. However, if you buy this stuff and you install it on somebody else’s device and you use it to exfiltrate data from that device, you are violating many different laws at once. Up to and including the CFAA, the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> To exfiltrate data means to move sensitive information to another location without permission.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are listening in on somebody’s conversations, especially in a two-party consent state, you could be violating the Wiretap Act, which is a state-by-state basis kind of situation. You could also be violating various state laws around stalking, especially if you are tracking somebody’s physical location. Additionally, there are other laws that are potentially being broken. By the company that is selling you the app. Because writing stalkerware, again, not illegal. However, if you write it and then you sell it and market it specifically for the purpose of doing things that are illegal, like installing the app on somebody else’s device, specifically in a way that they cannot see it in order to spy on the things that they’re doing, that’s illegal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this is obviously super illegal in multiple jurisdictions. In 2018 specifically, when you were first kind of really getting involved, how did people keep getting away with it then?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, there are a bunch of different reasons. One of the big problems that I have in my advocacy is that when I describe a problem, often what people say their first reaction is ‘there ought to be a law.’ Law is meaningless if the law does not get implemented. If there are no consequences for breaking the law, why have a law in the first place? Frequently stalking is one of those crimes that very rarely sees consequences. We do not have a lot of support for survivors of domestic abuse or for people who are stalked or spied on in this country. And the fact that people do it so often without consequences leaves other people with the impression that this is fine and legal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So then what do you do about stalkerware? That’s a new tab. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, we’ll get back to Eva’s story and the fight against stalkerwear right after this break. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome back. So let’s open that new tab: What do you do about stalkerware? Okay, let’s go back to 2018. Eva found out that one of her colleagues, someone she trusted, was not only a serial rapist, but had also leveraged his position as a security and privacy expert to silence the women he abused.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t have any evidence that he actually broke into anybody’s phones or computers as retaliation for this. This is a fear that these people were expressing at the time that they were speaking out against him in public in the press. But he did have a history of breaking into other people’s phones and computers. And also, he had been working for Google for many years and had been publishing security research. In which he was studying the ways in which governments were doing exactly the kind of thing that we were talking about. And this was the research that he and I published together for years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The threat of tech abuse is often enough to silence victims of intimate partner violence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It worth making the point that often when an abuser threatens to engage in this sort of tech-enabled abuse, one of the things that they do is they try to leave their target or the survivor with the impression that they’re omniscient and they’re omnipotent, that they are comfortable with technology and therefore they might be capable of anything. And so the survivor often comes to me imagining all kinds of very technically complicated scenarios in which their privacy or security has been compromised. And let me tell you, almost every time that I actually catch an abuser compromising an account or a device or successfully learning where somebody is located or getting access to the contents of their communications, it’s pretty low tech. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Abusers are lazy, abusers are honestly not terribly competent. And part of that is that they don’t have to be. If they cultivate an aura of, ‘I could do anything at any moment,’ often it’s enough to cause the survivor to censor themselves and to chill their speech and to not go places simply because they’re scared. And they do the abuser’s work for them in this way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After discovering the truth about her abusive colleague, Eva was enraged. She took her anger to Twitter, posting, “If you are a woman who has been sexually abused by a hacker who threatened to compromise your devices, contact me and I will make sure they are properly examined. “And then I went to lunch. And I came back and my phone was vibrating and it wouldn’t stop vibrating. The notifications poured in, likes, retweets, comments, and then hundreds of messages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I was flooded with demands. Basically, a lot of people came to me and told me the stories about the worst things that had ever happened to them. And this went on for months and then years. The most common kind of thing that I would get is that people would reach out to me and say that, “hi, I’m in a relationship with a person who is very technically adept and highly abusive. And now I am seeing behavior that leads me to believe that my devices have been compromised. What do I do?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Evo was working as a kind of one-woman security helpline, assisting survivors with regaining control of hacked accounts and scouring their devices for stalkerware.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That sort of thing is absolutely not sustainable. Not even that it’s not sustainable for one person, but it wouldn’t even be sustainable for a team of people. This was not a problem where we could effectively fix it, you know, sort of one survivor at a time. And so I spent a lot of time thinking about how to fix the problem in a broader way, kind of, how to punch above my weight.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eva helped to form the Coalition Against Stalkerware, which includes digital rights groups like the Electronic Frontier Foundation, as well as academics who are leading cybersecurity research at universities around the world. The Coalition also includes companies that make antivirus software. Eva said that it was important that these security companies learn to work with their competitors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the reasons why some of these companies are relatively good at detecting stalkerware is because now these people talk to one another, and that is really helpful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When the collective was founded in 2019, a lot of antivirus software was not able to detect stalkerware. It often flew under the radar. Eva said that back then a lots of researchers just didn’t prioritize it. They weren’t as concerned as they were with spyware that could be remotely installed, which was often used by state-sponsored hacking groups to surveil activists and journalists. Part of the fight against stalker ware was getting industry leaders to recognize the scope of the problem. That’s why the coalition also includes groups that do direct support work for survivors of domestic abuse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These are the people who deal with, like, where the rubber meets the road every single day and they give us the most insight into the state of the problem and whether or not the mitigations that we are rolling out are effective. They also alert us to, you know, new problems and new ways in which survivors are being subjected to tech-enabled abuse so that we can come up with mitigations for those.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so far, the coalition’s work is paying off. Eva has been working with this company called AV Comparatives to test various antivirus products to see how well they can detect stalkerware. They’ve done a few rounds of testing over the years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But we recently did this testing again last year, and we found a couple of really interesting things. One is that overall, the performance of antivirus in detecting the stalkerware samples that we gave it improved. Almost everyone did better. We also found that the number of stalkerwear products out there is slightly lower. In the time when I first did my testing we tested 20 different Android stalkerware products. And when I did my most recent testing, I could only find 17. So the market’s getting smaller.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Detection is just one solution. This software shouldn’t be installed in the first place. How do you prevent it? To answer that, we’re honing in on the U.S. In one last tab: The crackdown on stalkerware.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of the times, stalkerware is marketed as a way of monitoring your employees. And if you are an employer, and you have employees who are using your network and your devices, and you install software that allows you to see what is happening on that network and on those devices. That’s legal. This is why it’s generally understood that if you are using your employer’s devices, you should not be using them for anything personal. The other way in which these things are marketed is as a way of providing safety for your children. The idea, of course, being that your children, of course do not have their own devices. You know, your family’s devices belong to you, the person who purchased them. And then one of them goes to your kid and as a condition of having the device, they agree to share a whole bunch of information about where they are and what they are doing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2020, Google banned advertising for apps that track another person’s activity without their consent, but made an exception for apps that help parents monitor their underage children. These apps are perfectly legal, which is why stalkerware can be so difficult to crack down on. A lot of stalkerwear apps masquerade as parental control software. And if you’ve been listening to this show for a while, you may notice a pattern. Child safety in tech is a very hot-button topic. As soon as any issue includes protecting kids online, it can be very difficult to have nuanced conversations about it. Parental control apps will not be banned anytime soon, even if abusers use them to stalk their partners. But many stalkerware companies share a critical flaw, one that, ironically, can land them in legal trouble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re often not built very well. They often have privacy and security problems. And building a site where you have essentially left the exfiltrated data vulnerable and it is leaked and you are made aware of this leak and then doing nothing is also illegal. And so this is one of the reasons why the FTC has, in the past, taken actions against stalkerware companies. Often the action is not for making stalkerware, but for making stalkerware badly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Take SupportKing. It’s a consumer spyware company that made an app called Spyphone. It marketed itself as an app to, quote, connect you with your family with features like GPS tracking, call and message logs, and internet history monitoring. The premium version of the app included a keylogger and live screen viewing. All of that data, text messages, selfies, location data was collected and stored in an unsecured Amazon cloud server. Terabytes of unencrypted, identifiable information from over 2,000 users was just floating around online. So in 2021, in an unprecedented move, the FTC banned not only Spyphone, but also its CEO Scott Zuckerman, from ever running another surveillance business again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is actually the very first time that we’ve ever seen the FTC ban a stalkerware company. And they went to this extra trouble of specifically banning the CEO so that he could not do what he later did, which was essentially abandon the business as bankrupt and then start new businesses. And so he ended up under a consent decree which placed a lot of limitations on what kind of business he could start up if he wanted to start up another business. And had a bunch of requirements regarding the kind of privacy and security reporting that he would need to do in order to be allowed to start up new businesses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But Scott would not take the L. Just a year after his initial FTC ban, TechCrunch reported that he was caught running another stalkerware company. And last July, he petitioned the FTC to vacate the consent order.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Saying that, listen, this ban is really a drag. It is impeding my ability to go off and start new companies. And it’s really inconvenient for me, a former stalkerware merchant, to have to do all of these reporting requirements with my new businesses, which have nothing to do with stalkerware.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">His new businesses, according to the petition he filed, included running a restaurant and other tourism ventures in Puerto Rico. Eva was not about to let it slide. When the FTC solicited comment she jumped in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I pointed out that the inconvenience is the point. This guy has, has definitely proved that he does not care about protecting user data or about user privacy. And so he should not be allowed to have businesses in which he is storing people’s private data. That seems bad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zuckerman’s petition was not approved. And Spyphone is just one of many battles in the fight against this industry. Eva said the coalition against stalkerware has been making some pretty big strides.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the things about the, you know, kind of hydra metaphor is that, you know, you take down one head, you know, three heads come up, but instead, it’s been the other way around. We take down one head, three heads come down. And we have not managed to completely eliminate stalkerware, but we have managed to dramatically reduce the number of companies that are involved. And I think that that is a big victory. And, I think that as long as we can continue to create consequences for running one of these companies that it will look less and less appealing to continue to do so because the people who run stalkerware companies are businessmen. These are people who are out to get a buck. And the moment getting that buck is no longer easy, they will go find something else to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Earlier, Eva mentioned that stalkerware detection has improved since she started this work, and stalkerwear companies aren’t able to operate as brazenly anymore. Since the Spyphone case in 2021, several stalkerware companies have been prosecuted, shut down, and forced to notify victims that their devices have been compromised. It’s a huge leap from where the industry stood when Eva first started this fight. But there are more avenues for tech-enabled abuse than ever before, and stalkerware is just one part of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A few years ago we saw a real kind of cratering in the use of stalkerware. We saw stalkerware use go down and stalkerware detections go down. And for a moment, I celebrated. I’m like, haha, we’re winning. This is really great. But this happened somewhere around like, late 2020, early 2021. And my theory is not that the amount of stalking has gone down, but that people switched to using Apple AirTags. And so I have spent a lot of time working on the problem of people being stalked through Bluetooth enabled trackers, not just AirTags, but also, you know, Samsung SmartTags and Chipolos and Tiles. And part of the reason for that is because this is a small, cheap, easy way to keep track of somebody’s location without ever needing to get your hands on their phone and without ever having to worry about whether or not their phone can detect it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Even lower tech, and lazier, even.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. I think that really the most important thing for people to understand about tech-enabled abuse is that it’s not the survivor’s fault. One of the things that I hear most often when we talk about tech enabled abuse is like, well, why didn’t you just leave? Or, you know, well why did you give the abuser your password? Or why did let the aboser back into your house? And I think, that that is such a cruel and counterproductive way in which to face the problem and it really just it’s not even that it doesn’t help anyone it just helps abusers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The fight against tech-enabled abuse doesn’t end with only holding companies accountable. There’s a social element too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that one of the big things that we need to change is we need for people to call each other out when they see this kind of behavior and say this is abusive. This is not okay. It’s not cool. Put that thing down. You know, if you think your partner is cheating, go talk to your partner. And if you can’t talk to you partner, maybe it’s time to break up. It is not time to spy on them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eva is not the privacy pope. She will not dole out individualized blessings and hold confession to absolve you of your privacy-violating sins. There is one thing she will give her blessing for: calling out abusive behavior. It can start with a one-on-one conversation with a peer or, if you’re Eva, an angry tweet turned years-long collective action to take down an industry-wide issue. But for most people, just learning about this issue and recognizing when to step in is already helping.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you suspect that your devices have been compromised and that you’re a victim of tech-enabled abuse, we’ll link to some resources in the show notes. We’ll also have resources for stalkerware detection, removal, and prevention. Okay, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional engineering help from Brian Douglas and additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts, And Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2018, researcher Eva Galperin made a discovery about a colleague. He had been sexually abusing women for decades, and threatening to expose their private information using “stalkerware” — hidden applications that allow people to spy on another person’s private life through their mobile device. This set Eva on a new path. She went on to found the Coalition Against Stalkerware, a network of researchers and advocacy groups working to limit the spread of stalkerware and support survivors of tech-enabled abuse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eva joins Morgan to talk about how her background in cybersecurity allowed her to help countless survivors of stalkerware abuse, and how activists and researchers are beginning to turn the tide against a sprawling, largely hidden industry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4327771430\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/about/staff/eva-galperin\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eva Galperin\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, director of cybersecurity at the Electronic Frontier Foundation\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://stopstalkerware.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is stalkerware?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Coalition Against Stalkerware \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://techcrunch.com/2026/02/09/hacked-leaked-exposed-why-you-should-stop-using-stalkerware-apps/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hacked, leaked, exposed: Why you should never use stalkerware apps\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lorenzo Franceschi-Bicchierai, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TechCrunch \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/21/17035552/sexual-assault-harassment-whisper-network-reporting-failure-marquis-boire\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When whisper networks let us down\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Sarah Jeong, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.vice.com/en/article/spyware-company-spyfone-terabytes-data-exposed-online-leak/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Spyware Company Leaves ‘Terabytes’ of Selfies, Text Messages, and Location Data Exposed Online\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lorenzo Franceschi-Bicchierai, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Vice \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://techcrunch.com/2021/10/19/stalkerware-security-phone-data-thousands/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A massive ‘stalkerware’ leak puts the phone data of thousands at risk \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Zack Whittaker, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TechCrunch \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://techcrunch.com/2022/12/17/support-king-ftc-spytrac/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Support King, banned by FTC, linked to new phone spying operation\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Zack Whittaker, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TechCrunch \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2025/11/eff-teams-av-comparatives-test-android-stalkerware-detection-major-antivirus-apps\">EFF Teams Up With AV Comparatives to Test Android Stalkerware Detection by Major Antivirus Apps \u003c/a>— Eva Galperin, \u003ci>Electronic Frontier Foundation\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tags on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends, post about it on Instagram, Blue Sky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to just get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just a note, this episode contains mentions of sexual assault and domestic violence, so listen with care. Eva Galperin is the Director of Cybersecurity at the Electronic Frontier Foundation. In some circles, she’s reluctantly known as the privacy pope.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People would come to me telling me about incredibly privacy invasive stuff that they had done as if they were looking to confess their sins and hoping that I would bless them. And the whole point of this is, in fact, that I am not the privacy pope.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eva may not be the privacy pope, but she has been working to protect the privacy of vulnerable people for years. In the early 2010s, she was a security researcher. She compiled information on governments that use surveillance malware to target journalists and activists.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in late 2017, it came out that the primary person with whom I was doing all of this security research was a serial rapist.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eva had been working with his colleague for years. He was a fellow researcher, known for defending human rights activists and journalists in repressive countries. Behind closed doors, he had been secretly abusing and assaulting women for over a decade, and he kept them quiet with a threat of hacking. In a series of articles in The Verge in 2018, many of his survivors explained why they were so afraid to come forward.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It really struck me how much they all described themselves as really scared of what he might do to their devices, because apparently he had threatened to compromise their devices if they came out and said anything about him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The survivors were scared of stalkerware, that software that’s often covertly installed on a device to track and record the user’s activity. It goes further than location sharing. This is software that the user is not aware of and doesn’t consent to. Stalkerware can log messages, internet history, photos, and pretty much any sensitive activity or information. The person who installed it can then turn around and use this information to harass, monitor, and coerce their target. That’s what the victims of this former colleague were so afraid of.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was very upsetting. And as with anything, when you suddenly discover that someone is not the person that you think they are, you go back and think about incidents and go, oh, there were signs I should have known. And you spend a lot of time beating yourself up. But I decided that beating myself up is not best use of my time. And that helping people is the best use my time. I was so mad. So I did what most people did in the year 2018 when they got very angry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What Eva did next started a chain reaction, one that led her to build a network aimed at taking down a massive shadowy industry of illegal software developers creating surveillance tools for tech savvy abusers. Today, we’re diving into the fight against stalkerware. What the software really does, how Eva and others have been working together to protect survivors, and the legal gray areas that make this industry so hard to take down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Morgan Sung and this is Close All Tabs. Ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, before we get into the fight, we need to understand what we’re dealing with. And for that, we need open a new tab: What is stalkerware?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stalkerware is a form of tech-enabled abuse, the umbrella of digital tools and tactics that abusers use to control, harass, and intimidate their victims. A common version might look like parental monitoring apps that can run in the background and provide live access to the device’s location, text messages, and social media activity. Eva said that stalkerware works differently depending on the operating system. Androids and iPhones have different security measures. If you have an Android, the abuser needs to actually download an app onto your phone. To do that, they need to have your phone’s password. Eva says this isn’t the barrier you might think it is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This whole idea of like, well, just don’t give the abuser your password. Uh, you know, I’ve got news for you about how abuse works. So it is very common for abusers to have physical access to the device, to have the password for the device. And when the survivor isn’t looking, when they have their back turned, when they’re in the other room, uh, they download the app.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stalkerware generally isn’t allowed on Google’s Store, so a lot of these apps are downloaded from websites. They don’t appear as normal apps do. They’re hidden. If you don’t know that it’s there, then you don’t know to delete it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The stalker then logs into a website usually and they pay money to the company for access to the portal which gives them information about what is happening on your phone. Sometimes that can be your SMS messages, your WhatsApp messages, all of your passwords. There can be a keylogger on there so just like every key that you hit could possibly be logged, photos being shared. You can sometimes remotely access the camera without setting off a little light that tells you the camera is on, or remotely set off the microphone for recording, which is also very invasive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most people carry their phones everywhere they go, which means that stalkerware that tracks real-time location and sends out GPS data is particularly prevalent. If you use an iPhone, the process looks a little different. Abusers typically steal their victim’s Apple ID password.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, a thing that you can get if you are an abuser because that’s how abuse works.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they may also need physical access to the phone, which abusers likely already have.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then the stalkerware, which is using the Apple ID, then just makes covert full backups of the phone. You will not get real-time information, but you will essentially get information about once every 24 hours if you are spying on an iPhone.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stalkerware, for the most part, is illegal across the world, but it’s a tricky field to regulate, especially in the U.S. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Writing stalkerware is not illegal, you know, code is speech, it’s protected by the First Amendment. However, if you buy this stuff and you install it on somebody else’s device and you use it to exfiltrate data from that device, you are violating many different laws at once. Up to and including the CFAA, the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> To exfiltrate data means to move sensitive information to another location without permission.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are listening in on somebody’s conversations, especially in a two-party consent state, you could be violating the Wiretap Act, which is a state-by-state basis kind of situation. You could also be violating various state laws around stalking, especially if you are tracking somebody’s physical location. Additionally, there are other laws that are potentially being broken. By the company that is selling you the app. Because writing stalkerware, again, not illegal. However, if you write it and then you sell it and market it specifically for the purpose of doing things that are illegal, like installing the app on somebody else’s device, specifically in a way that they cannot see it in order to spy on the things that they’re doing, that’s illegal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this is obviously super illegal in multiple jurisdictions. In 2018 specifically, when you were first kind of really getting involved, how did people keep getting away with it then?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, there are a bunch of different reasons. One of the big problems that I have in my advocacy is that when I describe a problem, often what people say their first reaction is ‘there ought to be a law.’ Law is meaningless if the law does not get implemented. If there are no consequences for breaking the law, why have a law in the first place? Frequently stalking is one of those crimes that very rarely sees consequences. We do not have a lot of support for survivors of domestic abuse or for people who are stalked or spied on in this country. And the fact that people do it so often without consequences leaves other people with the impression that this is fine and legal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So then what do you do about stalkerware? That’s a new tab. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, we’ll get back to Eva’s story and the fight against stalkerwear right after this break. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome back. So let’s open that new tab: What do you do about stalkerware? Okay, let’s go back to 2018. Eva found out that one of her colleagues, someone she trusted, was not only a serial rapist, but had also leveraged his position as a security and privacy expert to silence the women he abused.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t have any evidence that he actually broke into anybody’s phones or computers as retaliation for this. This is a fear that these people were expressing at the time that they were speaking out against him in public in the press. But he did have a history of breaking into other people’s phones and computers. And also, he had been working for Google for many years and had been publishing security research. In which he was studying the ways in which governments were doing exactly the kind of thing that we were talking about. And this was the research that he and I published together for years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The threat of tech abuse is often enough to silence victims of intimate partner violence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It worth making the point that often when an abuser threatens to engage in this sort of tech-enabled abuse, one of the things that they do is they try to leave their target or the survivor with the impression that they’re omniscient and they’re omnipotent, that they are comfortable with technology and therefore they might be capable of anything. And so the survivor often comes to me imagining all kinds of very technically complicated scenarios in which their privacy or security has been compromised. And let me tell you, almost every time that I actually catch an abuser compromising an account or a device or successfully learning where somebody is located or getting access to the contents of their communications, it’s pretty low tech. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Abusers are lazy, abusers are honestly not terribly competent. And part of that is that they don’t have to be. If they cultivate an aura of, ‘I could do anything at any moment,’ often it’s enough to cause the survivor to censor themselves and to chill their speech and to not go places simply because they’re scared. And they do the abuser’s work for them in this way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After discovering the truth about her abusive colleague, Eva was enraged. She took her anger to Twitter, posting, “If you are a woman who has been sexually abused by a hacker who threatened to compromise your devices, contact me and I will make sure they are properly examined. “And then I went to lunch. And I came back and my phone was vibrating and it wouldn’t stop vibrating. The notifications poured in, likes, retweets, comments, and then hundreds of messages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I was flooded with demands. Basically, a lot of people came to me and told me the stories about the worst things that had ever happened to them. And this went on for months and then years. The most common kind of thing that I would get is that people would reach out to me and say that, “hi, I’m in a relationship with a person who is very technically adept and highly abusive. And now I am seeing behavior that leads me to believe that my devices have been compromised. What do I do?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Evo was working as a kind of one-woman security helpline, assisting survivors with regaining control of hacked accounts and scouring their devices for stalkerware.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That sort of thing is absolutely not sustainable. Not even that it’s not sustainable for one person, but it wouldn’t even be sustainable for a team of people. This was not a problem where we could effectively fix it, you know, sort of one survivor at a time. And so I spent a lot of time thinking about how to fix the problem in a broader way, kind of, how to punch above my weight.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eva helped to form the Coalition Against Stalkerware, which includes digital rights groups like the Electronic Frontier Foundation, as well as academics who are leading cybersecurity research at universities around the world. The Coalition also includes companies that make antivirus software. Eva said that it was important that these security companies learn to work with their competitors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the reasons why some of these companies are relatively good at detecting stalkerware is because now these people talk to one another, and that is really helpful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When the collective was founded in 2019, a lot of antivirus software was not able to detect stalkerware. It often flew under the radar. Eva said that back then a lots of researchers just didn’t prioritize it. They weren’t as concerned as they were with spyware that could be remotely installed, which was often used by state-sponsored hacking groups to surveil activists and journalists. Part of the fight against stalker ware was getting industry leaders to recognize the scope of the problem. That’s why the coalition also includes groups that do direct support work for survivors of domestic abuse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These are the people who deal with, like, where the rubber meets the road every single day and they give us the most insight into the state of the problem and whether or not the mitigations that we are rolling out are effective. They also alert us to, you know, new problems and new ways in which survivors are being subjected to tech-enabled abuse so that we can come up with mitigations for those.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so far, the coalition’s work is paying off. Eva has been working with this company called AV Comparatives to test various antivirus products to see how well they can detect stalkerware. They’ve done a few rounds of testing over the years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But we recently did this testing again last year, and we found a couple of really interesting things. One is that overall, the performance of antivirus in detecting the stalkerware samples that we gave it improved. Almost everyone did better. We also found that the number of stalkerwear products out there is slightly lower. In the time when I first did my testing we tested 20 different Android stalkerware products. And when I did my most recent testing, I could only find 17. So the market’s getting smaller.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Detection is just one solution. This software shouldn’t be installed in the first place. How do you prevent it? To answer that, we’re honing in on the U.S. In one last tab: The crackdown on stalkerware.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of the times, stalkerware is marketed as a way of monitoring your employees. And if you are an employer, and you have employees who are using your network and your devices, and you install software that allows you to see what is happening on that network and on those devices. That’s legal. This is why it’s generally understood that if you are using your employer’s devices, you should not be using them for anything personal. The other way in which these things are marketed is as a way of providing safety for your children. The idea, of course, being that your children, of course do not have their own devices. You know, your family’s devices belong to you, the person who purchased them. And then one of them goes to your kid and as a condition of having the device, they agree to share a whole bunch of information about where they are and what they are doing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2020, Google banned advertising for apps that track another person’s activity without their consent, but made an exception for apps that help parents monitor their underage children. These apps are perfectly legal, which is why stalkerware can be so difficult to crack down on. A lot of stalkerwear apps masquerade as parental control software. And if you’ve been listening to this show for a while, you may notice a pattern. Child safety in tech is a very hot-button topic. As soon as any issue includes protecting kids online, it can be very difficult to have nuanced conversations about it. Parental control apps will not be banned anytime soon, even if abusers use them to stalk their partners. But many stalkerware companies share a critical flaw, one that, ironically, can land them in legal trouble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re often not built very well. They often have privacy and security problems. And building a site where you have essentially left the exfiltrated data vulnerable and it is leaked and you are made aware of this leak and then doing nothing is also illegal. And so this is one of the reasons why the FTC has, in the past, taken actions against stalkerware companies. Often the action is not for making stalkerware, but for making stalkerware badly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Take SupportKing. It’s a consumer spyware company that made an app called Spyphone. It marketed itself as an app to, quote, connect you with your family with features like GPS tracking, call and message logs, and internet history monitoring. The premium version of the app included a keylogger and live screen viewing. All of that data, text messages, selfies, location data was collected and stored in an unsecured Amazon cloud server. Terabytes of unencrypted, identifiable information from over 2,000 users was just floating around online. So in 2021, in an unprecedented move, the FTC banned not only Spyphone, but also its CEO Scott Zuckerman, from ever running another surveillance business again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is actually the very first time that we’ve ever seen the FTC ban a stalkerware company. And they went to this extra trouble of specifically banning the CEO so that he could not do what he later did, which was essentially abandon the business as bankrupt and then start new businesses. And so he ended up under a consent decree which placed a lot of limitations on what kind of business he could start up if he wanted to start up another business. And had a bunch of requirements regarding the kind of privacy and security reporting that he would need to do in order to be allowed to start up new businesses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But Scott would not take the L. Just a year after his initial FTC ban, TechCrunch reported that he was caught running another stalkerware company. And last July, he petitioned the FTC to vacate the consent order.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Saying that, listen, this ban is really a drag. It is impeding my ability to go off and start new companies. And it’s really inconvenient for me, a former stalkerware merchant, to have to do all of these reporting requirements with my new businesses, which have nothing to do with stalkerware.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">His new businesses, according to the petition he filed, included running a restaurant and other tourism ventures in Puerto Rico. Eva was not about to let it slide. When the FTC solicited comment she jumped in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I pointed out that the inconvenience is the point. This guy has, has definitely proved that he does not care about protecting user data or about user privacy. And so he should not be allowed to have businesses in which he is storing people’s private data. That seems bad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zuckerman’s petition was not approved. And Spyphone is just one of many battles in the fight against this industry. Eva said the coalition against stalkerware has been making some pretty big strides.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the things about the, you know, kind of hydra metaphor is that, you know, you take down one head, you know, three heads come up, but instead, it’s been the other way around. We take down one head, three heads come down. And we have not managed to completely eliminate stalkerware, but we have managed to dramatically reduce the number of companies that are involved. And I think that that is a big victory. And, I think that as long as we can continue to create consequences for running one of these companies that it will look less and less appealing to continue to do so because the people who run stalkerware companies are businessmen. These are people who are out to get a buck. And the moment getting that buck is no longer easy, they will go find something else to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Earlier, Eva mentioned that stalkerware detection has improved since she started this work, and stalkerwear companies aren’t able to operate as brazenly anymore. Since the Spyphone case in 2021, several stalkerware companies have been prosecuted, shut down, and forced to notify victims that their devices have been compromised. It’s a huge leap from where the industry stood when Eva first started this fight. But there are more avenues for tech-enabled abuse than ever before, and stalkerware is just one part of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A few years ago we saw a real kind of cratering in the use of stalkerware. We saw stalkerware use go down and stalkerware detections go down. And for a moment, I celebrated. I’m like, haha, we’re winning. This is really great. But this happened somewhere around like, late 2020, early 2021. And my theory is not that the amount of stalking has gone down, but that people switched to using Apple AirTags. And so I have spent a lot of time working on the problem of people being stalked through Bluetooth enabled trackers, not just AirTags, but also, you know, Samsung SmartTags and Chipolos and Tiles. And part of the reason for that is because this is a small, cheap, easy way to keep track of somebody’s location without ever needing to get your hands on their phone and without ever having to worry about whether or not their phone can detect it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Even lower tech, and lazier, even.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. I think that really the most important thing for people to understand about tech-enabled abuse is that it’s not the survivor’s fault. One of the things that I hear most often when we talk about tech enabled abuse is like, well, why didn’t you just leave? Or, you know, well why did you give the abuser your password? Or why did let the aboser back into your house? And I think, that that is such a cruel and counterproductive way in which to face the problem and it really just it’s not even that it doesn’t help anyone it just helps abusers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The fight against tech-enabled abuse doesn’t end with only holding companies accountable. There’s a social element too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that one of the big things that we need to change is we need for people to call each other out when they see this kind of behavior and say this is abusive. This is not okay. It’s not cool. Put that thing down. You know, if you think your partner is cheating, go talk to your partner. And if you can’t talk to you partner, maybe it’s time to break up. It is not time to spy on them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eva is not the privacy pope. She will not dole out individualized blessings and hold confession to absolve you of your privacy-violating sins. There is one thing she will give her blessing for: calling out abusive behavior. It can start with a one-on-one conversation with a peer or, if you’re Eva, an angry tweet turned years-long collective action to take down an industry-wide issue. But for most people, just learning about this issue and recognizing when to step in is already helping.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you suspect that your devices have been compromised and that you’re a victim of tech-enabled abuse, we’ll link to some resources in the show notes. We’ll also have resources for stalkerware detection, removal, and prevention. Okay, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional engineering help from Brian Douglas and additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts, And Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Elon Musk Takes Aim at OpenAI as Trial Begins: ‘It’s Not OK to Steal a Charity’",
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"content": "\u003cp>In a federal courtroom in Oakland on Tuesday, attorneys for tech elites Sam Altman and Elon Musk set the stage for a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12081290/how-to-unscramble-an-omelet-in-silicon-valley-the-musk-v-altman-trial-that-will-try\">landmark case to determine whether OpenAI\u003c/a>, one of the most powerful artificial intelligence companies in the world, was founded on a lie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At issue is whether the company’s stated mission — to lead AI development to benefit the common good — was authentic or a deceptive pitch designed to attract talent and investment. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101912956/its-elon-musks-world-were-just-living-in-it\">Musk\u003c/a> alleges that co-founders Altman and Greg Brockman, who remains Altman’s second-in-command, participated in a “long con” to enrich themselves at his expense, after the three co-founded OpenAI as a nonprofit in 2015.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re going to make this lawsuit very complicated, but it’s very simple,” Musk said of OpenAI on the stand on Tuesday afternoon. “It’s not OK to steal a charity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He departed the company after a falling out and \u003ca href=\"https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69013420/musk-v-altman/\">sued the company\u003c/a> in 2024, alleging that OpenAI had breached charitable trust by restructuring as a for-profit company, now valued at more than $800 billion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Altman’s attorneys called the Tesla CEO’s behavior “a tale of two Musks,” shifting from pushing for OpenAI to become a for-profit company under his control, to caring about its nonprofit status only after launching competitor xAI in 2023. They argue OpenAI’s decision to adopt a for-profit structure was integral to its survival.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re here because Mr. Musk didn’t get his way,” William Savitt, Altman’s lead attorney, said Tuesday. “And because he’s a competitor, he’ll do anything he can to attack OpenAI.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081686\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081686\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Steve Molo, Elon Musk’s attorney, presents opening statements in the trial in which Elon Musk (center-right) claims that Sam Altman (right) and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity, rather than solely for profit, in Oakland on April 28, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Steven Molo, Musk’s counsel, told the jury that when Musk, Altman and Brockman set out to found an AI nonprofit, their goals were to develop the technology safely and for the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034916/about-benefiting-humanity-calls-grow-for-openai-to-make-good-on-its-promises\">benefit of humanity\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It wasn’t a technology to get rich,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After operating as a strict nonprofit for years, OpenAI added a for-profit arm in 2019, which executives said was necessary to obtain the funding needed to develop artificial general intelligence — a more advanced AI technology that surpasses human intelligence, according to court filings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In early conversations about how the for-profit entity would work, Molo said, the structure was likened to a museum gift shop whose revenue funds the institution’s galleries and operations. Brockman and Altman reassured Musk that they were still committed to the nonprofit structure, he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But behind the scenes, Molo alleges that the other co-founders had more lucrative desires.[aside postID=news_12081290 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260422-ALTMANMUSK-MD-01-KQED.jpg']In court filings, he cited a journal in which Brockman wrote that “it would be nice to be making the billions … we’ve been thinking that maybe we should just flip to a for-profit. making the money for us sounds great and all.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Brockman also wrote that he and another top OpenAI executive, Ilya Sutskever, “cannot say that we are committed to the non-profit. don’t wanna say that we’re committed. If three months later we’re doing B-Corp [a certification for for-profit corporations with social and environmental missions], then it was a lie.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Years later, after Musk had departed OpenAI, the company was “no longer operating for the good of humanity,” Molo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The museum store sold the Picassos,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk’s lawsuit claims OpenAI breached charitable trust and alleges unjust enrichment, which means that one party unfairly benefits at the expense of another. He also accuses Microsoft, which is the company’s largest financial backer and until this week held the exclusive rights to license and sell its technology, of aiding and abetting OpenAI’s breach of charitable trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>OpenAI’s defense, meanwhile, alleges that Musk’s suit is less motivated by a desire to do good than it is by vengeance for his former colleagues, whose company is now eyeing an initial public offering valued at up to $1 trillion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Musk sat on his claims for years,” Savitt said. “He knew everything that was happening when it was happening. My clients had the nerve to go out and succeed without him.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He also pointed out that Musk launched xAI a year before bringing the lawsuit, which would make OpenAI his competitor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081681\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081681\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED-1-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED-1-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED-1-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Representing Microsoft, Russell Coan (left) speaks as Elon Musk watches in the trial in which Elon Musk claims that Sam Altman and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity, rather than solely for profit, in Oakland on April 28, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Savitt pointed to moments early in OpenAI’s development, when Musk suggested that it would be “probably better” for the company to operate as a “standard C corp[oration] with a parallel nonprofit.” He initially promised to cover the balance of the funding it needed, but reneged when he didn’t get to control the company, Savitt told the jury.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk was in the middle of the conversations about pivoting from a nonprofit, Savitt said. As early as the summer of 2017, he insisted on holding a majority equity stake in any for-profit entity, as well as controlling its board of directors and serving as CEO, according to OpenAI’s court filings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the fall of that year, after Brockman and Sutskever emailed Musk with concerns about the for-profit structure he proposed, the discussions collapsed, OpenAI alleges. After that, Musk stopped making significant quarterly funding contributions, and he left the company less than six months later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Around that time, Brockman and Altman moved to pursue a for-profit arm — a decision their attorneys say they told Musk about prior to his departure from the board.[aside postID=news_12079896 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Daniel-Moreno-Gama-AP.jpg']Savitt said in court that Musk had given the company less than 4% of the funding he’d promised. While OpenAI had gotten contributions from other donors, he said, those “kept the lights on, but it wasn’t nearly enough to stay on the cutting edge.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They needed to get the money from somewhere, or else the project collapsed,” he said, alleging that donors weren’t willing to make the billion-dollar contributions that OpenAI needed without an expectation of return.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since OpenAI established its first for-profit subsidiary, which capped investor returns at 100 times their investment, its business has exploded. It’s now a public benefit corporation, required to consider its mission statement but not necessarily to prioritize it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the years, its mission statement has been changed several times. In 2023, according to the nonprofit parent organization’s \u003ca href=\"https://cdn.theconversation.com/static_files/files/4099/2023-IRS990-OpenAI.pdf?1770819990\">IRS disclosure form\u003c/a>, it sought to build AI that “safely benefits humanity, unconstrained by a need to generate financial return.” But last year, \u003ca href=\"https://app.candid.org/profile/9571629/openai-81-0861541?activeTab=7\">that same form\u003c/a> included a shorter mission statement — one that removed the word “safely” and any mention of finances, Tufts University business professor Alnoor Ebrahim \u003ca href=\"https://theconversation.com/openai-has-deleted-the-word-safely-from-its-mission-and-its-new-structure-is-a-test-for-whether-ai-serves-society-or-shareholders-274467\">wrote in \u003cem>The Conversation\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, an academic news outlet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Former OpenAI employees have left and started a competitor, Anthropic, citing concerns over safety and the company’s direction. In 2023, OpenAI executives and board members, including Sutskever, staged a coup to briefly oust Altman as CEO. They said there’d been a breakdown in trust between him and the board, and that Altman engaged in a pattern of deception and wasn’t “consistently candid in his communications.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whether Altman’s and OpenAI’s pitch to develop their technology for the benefit of the world is an example of that deception is part of what jurors will aim to root out in the current trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I didn’t want to pave the road to hell with good intentions,” Musk said on the stand on Tuesday afternoon. “If you have somebody who’s not trustworthy in charge of AI, I think that’s very dangerous for the whole world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>In a federal courtroom in Oakland on Tuesday, attorneys for tech elites Sam Altman and Elon Musk set the stage for a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12081290/how-to-unscramble-an-omelet-in-silicon-valley-the-musk-v-altman-trial-that-will-try\">landmark case to determine whether OpenAI\u003c/a>, one of the most powerful artificial intelligence companies in the world, was founded on a lie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At issue is whether the company’s stated mission — to lead AI development to benefit the common good — was authentic or a deceptive pitch designed to attract talent and investment. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101912956/its-elon-musks-world-were-just-living-in-it\">Musk\u003c/a> alleges that co-founders Altman and Greg Brockman, who remains Altman’s second-in-command, participated in a “long con” to enrich themselves at his expense, after the three co-founded OpenAI as a nonprofit in 2015.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re going to make this lawsuit very complicated, but it’s very simple,” Musk said of OpenAI on the stand on Tuesday afternoon. “It’s not OK to steal a charity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He departed the company after a falling out and \u003ca href=\"https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69013420/musk-v-altman/\">sued the company\u003c/a> in 2024, alleging that OpenAI had breached charitable trust by restructuring as a for-profit company, now valued at more than $800 billion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Altman’s attorneys called the Tesla CEO’s behavior “a tale of two Musks,” shifting from pushing for OpenAI to become a for-profit company under his control, to caring about its nonprofit status only after launching competitor xAI in 2023. They argue OpenAI’s decision to adopt a for-profit structure was integral to its survival.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re here because Mr. Musk didn’t get his way,” William Savitt, Altman’s lead attorney, said Tuesday. “And because he’s a competitor, he’ll do anything he can to attack OpenAI.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081686\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081686\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-04-KQED-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Steve Molo, Elon Musk’s attorney, presents opening statements in the trial in which Elon Musk (center-right) claims that Sam Altman (right) and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity, rather than solely for profit, in Oakland on April 28, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Steven Molo, Musk’s counsel, told the jury that when Musk, Altman and Brockman set out to found an AI nonprofit, their goals were to develop the technology safely and for the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034916/about-benefiting-humanity-calls-grow-for-openai-to-make-good-on-its-promises\">benefit of humanity\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It wasn’t a technology to get rich,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After operating as a strict nonprofit for years, OpenAI added a for-profit arm in 2019, which executives said was necessary to obtain the funding needed to develop artificial general intelligence — a more advanced AI technology that surpasses human intelligence, according to court filings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In early conversations about how the for-profit entity would work, Molo said, the structure was likened to a museum gift shop whose revenue funds the institution’s galleries and operations. Brockman and Altman reassured Musk that they were still committed to the nonprofit structure, he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But behind the scenes, Molo alleges that the other co-founders had more lucrative desires.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>In court filings, he cited a journal in which Brockman wrote that “it would be nice to be making the billions … we’ve been thinking that maybe we should just flip to a for-profit. making the money for us sounds great and all.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Brockman also wrote that he and another top OpenAI executive, Ilya Sutskever, “cannot say that we are committed to the non-profit. don’t wanna say that we’re committed. If three months later we’re doing B-Corp [a certification for for-profit corporations with social and environmental missions], then it was a lie.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Years later, after Musk had departed OpenAI, the company was “no longer operating for the good of humanity,” Molo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The museum store sold the Picassos,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk’s lawsuit claims OpenAI breached charitable trust and alleges unjust enrichment, which means that one party unfairly benefits at the expense of another. He also accuses Microsoft, which is the company’s largest financial backer and until this week held the exclusive rights to license and sell its technology, of aiding and abetting OpenAI’s breach of charitable trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>OpenAI’s defense, meanwhile, alleges that Musk’s suit is less motivated by a desire to do good than it is by vengeance for his former colleagues, whose company is now eyeing an initial public offering valued at up to $1 trillion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Musk sat on his claims for years,” Savitt said. “He knew everything that was happening when it was happening. My clients had the nerve to go out and succeed without him.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He also pointed out that Musk launched xAI a year before bringing the lawsuit, which would make OpenAI his competitor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081681\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081681\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED-1-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED-1-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260428-MUSK-ALTMAN-VB-03-KQED-1-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Representing Microsoft, Russell Coan (left) speaks as Elon Musk watches in the trial in which Elon Musk claims that Sam Altman and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the benefit of humanity, rather than solely for profit, in Oakland on April 28, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Savitt pointed to moments early in OpenAI’s development, when Musk suggested that it would be “probably better” for the company to operate as a “standard C corp[oration] with a parallel nonprofit.” He initially promised to cover the balance of the funding it needed, but reneged when he didn’t get to control the company, Savitt told the jury.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk was in the middle of the conversations about pivoting from a nonprofit, Savitt said. As early as the summer of 2017, he insisted on holding a majority equity stake in any for-profit entity, as well as controlling its board of directors and serving as CEO, according to OpenAI’s court filings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the fall of that year, after Brockman and Sutskever emailed Musk with concerns about the for-profit structure he proposed, the discussions collapsed, OpenAI alleges. After that, Musk stopped making significant quarterly funding contributions, and he left the company less than six months later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Around that time, Brockman and Altman moved to pursue a for-profit arm — a decision their attorneys say they told Musk about prior to his departure from the board.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Savitt said in court that Musk had given the company less than 4% of the funding he’d promised. While OpenAI had gotten contributions from other donors, he said, those “kept the lights on, but it wasn’t nearly enough to stay on the cutting edge.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They needed to get the money from somewhere, or else the project collapsed,” he said, alleging that donors weren’t willing to make the billion-dollar contributions that OpenAI needed without an expectation of return.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since OpenAI established its first for-profit subsidiary, which capped investor returns at 100 times their investment, its business has exploded. It’s now a public benefit corporation, required to consider its mission statement but not necessarily to prioritize it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the years, its mission statement has been changed several times. In 2023, according to the nonprofit parent organization’s \u003ca href=\"https://cdn.theconversation.com/static_files/files/4099/2023-IRS990-OpenAI.pdf?1770819990\">IRS disclosure form\u003c/a>, it sought to build AI that “safely benefits humanity, unconstrained by a need to generate financial return.” But last year, \u003ca href=\"https://app.candid.org/profile/9571629/openai-81-0861541?activeTab=7\">that same form\u003c/a> included a shorter mission statement — one that removed the word “safely” and any mention of finances, Tufts University business professor Alnoor Ebrahim \u003ca href=\"https://theconversation.com/openai-has-deleted-the-word-safely-from-its-mission-and-its-new-structure-is-a-test-for-whether-ai-serves-society-or-shareholders-274467\">wrote in \u003cem>The Conversation\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, an academic news outlet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Former OpenAI employees have left and started a competitor, Anthropic, citing concerns over safety and the company’s direction. In 2023, OpenAI executives and board members, including Sutskever, staged a coup to briefly oust Altman as CEO. They said there’d been a breakdown in trust between him and the board, and that Altman engaged in a pattern of deception and wasn’t “consistently candid in his communications.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whether Altman’s and OpenAI’s pitch to develop their technology for the benefit of the world is an example of that deception is part of what jurors will aim to root out in the current trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I didn’t want to pave the road to hell with good intentions,” Musk said on the stand on Tuesday afternoon. “If you have somebody who’s not trustworthy in charge of AI, I think that’s very dangerous for the whole world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "how-to-unscramble-an-omelet-in-silicon-valley-the-musk-v-altman-trial-that-will-try",
"title": "How to Unscramble an Omelet in Silicon Valley: The Musk v. Altman Trial That Will Try",
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"headTitle": "How to Unscramble an Omelet in Silicon Valley: The Musk v. Altman Trial That Will Try | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>Starting Monday in Oakland, a federal judge will consider \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101912956/its-elon-musks-world-were-just-living-in-it\">Elon Musk\u003c/a>’s claim that Sam Altman and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034916/about-benefiting-humanity-calls-grow-for-openai-to-make-good-on-its-promises\">benefit of humanity\u003c/a>, rather than solely for profit. At stake is not just $134 billion in potential damages, but whether it matters, legally speaking, that one of the most powerful AI companies in the world was built on a lie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk and Altman co-founded OpenAI in 2015 as a nonprofit research lab, along with Greg Brockman, an AI researcher and entrepreneur, and others prominent in the field, but Musk left the company after a bitter falling out in 2018.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The following year, OpenAI established its first for-profit subsidiary, with investor returns capped at 100 times their investment. This structure would eventually evolve into the nearly trillion-dollar public benefit corporation OpenAI became in 2025. A public benefit corporation is essentially a for-profit company with a mission statement it’s legally required to consider, but not necessarily to prioritize.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This\u003ca href=\"https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69013420/musk-v-altman/\"> lawsuit\u003c/a>, filed in 2024, originally alleged that Altman and Brockman ran a ‘long con,’ conspiring to enrich themselves at Musk’s expense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the eve of trial, in a move OpenAI called “evasive,” Musk’s lawyers voluntarily dismissed those personal fraud claims. What proceeds to trial today are two claims that go beyond Musk’s personal grievance: unjust enrichment and breach of charitable trust — essentially, the argument that OpenAI betrayed, not just Musk, but the public it promised to serve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>OpenAI argues Musk was fully aware the research lab needed to evolve beyond its nonprofit structure, because he participated in those early discussions, and even proposed folding OpenAI into Tesla. Now, OpenAI’s lawyers argue, Musk is disingenuously trying to use the courts to kneecap the most prominent rival to his own weaker and more controversial AI venture, xAI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12075430\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12075430\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-Elon-Musk-Trial-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-Elon-Musk-Trial-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-Elon-Musk-Trial-03-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-Elon-Musk-Trial-03-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A courtroom sketch depicts Elon Musk on the stand on March 4, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Motivated by jealousy, regret for walking away from OpenAI and a desire to derail a competing AI company, Elon has spent years harassing OpenAI through baseless lawsuits and public attacks,” the company\u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/index/openai-elon-musk/\"> posted\u003c/a> on its website, where it also offers a\u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/index/elon-musk-wanted-an-openai-for-profit/\"> timeline\u003c/a> that Musk v. Altman et al case watchers will find helpful as they follow what promises to be a barnburner of a trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69013420/musk-v-altman/?page=3\">Hundreds of court filings\u003c/a> provide a dishy treasure trove of private communications worthy of a telenovela, including some juicy excerpts from Brockman’s personal journal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He writes about Musk, “it’d be wrong to steal the nonprofit from him. … that’d be pretty morally bankrupt. and he’s really not an idiot.”[aside postID=news_12072425 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/AP24134775174210-1020x680.jpg']Also, “Financially, what will take me to $1B?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But without a doubt, it is the beef between Musk and Altman that will dominate this show. “They really do not like each other. That part is not fake,” said Charlie Bullock, a senior research fellow at the nonprofit Institute for Law and AI who advises state and federal policy makers on AI governance topics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This trial promises to put on lurid public display a mini-universe of incestuous business relationships between men famous for rewriting rules rather than following them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Personal spite between Musk and Altman aside, Bullock said, “We’re going to learn a lot over the course of this case and from the conclusion of this case about whether the legal system can meaningfully constrain frontier AI labs.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This trial, Bullock told KQED, is “sort of the fallback option” in the absence of other checks on bad behavior in the AI space, such as federal regulation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There is, for instance, a well-established law in California about nonprofits, for-profits, and how transitions between the two should be regulated. Whether and how it applies in this case is up to U.S. District Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers in Oakland to determine over the next month.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>OpenAI is like nothing that’s come before\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Jill Horwitz, a law professor at Northwestern University and faculty director of the Lowell Milken Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofits at UCLA Law, likens OpenAI’s unique structure to “An enormous tail on a tiny dog.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The tail is the operating company, which is what everybody thinks of as being OpenAI, and the dog is the nonprofit, and it’s tiny. And it remains to be seen whether that board can be independent enough, because there’s such overlap between the nonprofit board and the for-profit board,” Horwitz said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12054564\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12054564 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/Sam-Altman_chatpgt.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/Sam-Altman_chatpgt.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/Sam-Altman_chatpgt-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/Sam-Altman_chatpgt-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Samuel Altman, CEO of OpenAI, testifies before the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Privacy, Technology and the Law on May 16, 2023, in Washington, D.C. \u003ccite>(Win McNamee/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“It’s a weird structure. OpenAI isn’t one company. OpenAI is an interconnected group of companies. But it all is supposed to be advancing the nonprofit purpose,” Horwitz told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2018, even as OpenAI was privately contemplating the for-profit restructuring, it voluntarily adopted a new charter that restated and even strengthened its commitment to the public mission articulated at its founding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In part, this had to do with the pressure Altman and OpenAI felt to attract top AI researchers, many of whom are concerned about the ethics of unleashing world-changing software on the rest of us. In 2024, 13 current and former OpenAI and Google DeepMind employees took the extraordinary step of publishing an \u003ca href=\"https://righttowarn.ai\">open letter\u003c/a> titled “Right to Warn,” calling out their own industry, and asking for protection if they warned the public.[aside postID=news_12079267 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Hegseth-Side-by-Side-c.jpg']“We are hopeful that these risks can be adequately mitigated with sufficient guidance from the scientific community, policymakers, and the public. However, AI companies have strong financial incentives to avoid effective oversight, and we do not believe bespoke structures of corporate governance are sufficient to change this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To this day, it remains unclear whether Altman’s talk about benefiting humanity was anything more than a savvy sales pitch designed to attract top AI talent and allay the concerns of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11976097/california-lawmakers-take-on-ai-regulation-with-a-host-of-bills\">federal regulators\u003c/a>. This is one of the key questions trial watchers will be most keen to see answered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s quite typical for scientific research organizations to do all the hard work of the research before their IP is sold to a for-profit company for practical purposes,” said Rose Chan Loui, founding executive director of the Lowell Milken Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofits at UCLA Law.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What makes OpenAI unusual, Chan Loui said, is how explicitly and repeatedly the AI developer bound itself to promising its AI would be developed safely and for the benefit of all of humanity. “When they opened up to investment and formed the subsidiary, they recommitted to that purpose. They tied themselves even more tightly.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Anthropic, founded by former OpenAI employees who left over concerns about the company’s direction, has cultivated a reputation as the more safety-conscious, ethically serious player in the AI race, the light gray hat to OpenAI’s dark gray one. Anthropic chose to incorporate as a public benefit corporation from the beginning, rather than a nonprofit, because a public benefit corporation has far more legal flexibility. “Anthropic may be behaving in a way that the public thinks is more charitable, but its legal duties to do so are a lot lower than OpenAI’s,” Horwitz said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>But is Musk the right party to bring this suit?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For legal eagles following this case, it’s curious that Musk is the plaintiff, rather than California’s attorney general, who is the primary legal guardian of charitable assets in the state, where most of OpenAI’s assets are located. But in 2025, Attorney General Rob Bonta negotiated a binding \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/attachments/press-docs/Final%20Executed%20MOU%20Between%20OpenAI%20and%20California%20AG%20re%20Notice%20of%20Conditions%20of%20Non-Objection%20%2810.27.2025%29%20%28Signed%20by%20OpenAI%29%20%28Signed%20by%20CA%20DOJ%29.pdf\">memorandum of understanding\u003c/a> with OpenAI. The AG in Delaware, where OpenAI is incorporated, issued a parallel statement of non-objection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A coalition of more than 30 California foundations and nonprofit organizations, including the San Francisco Foundation and TechEquity, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sff.org/Offsite-Media/Charitable-coalition-letter-on-OpenAI-conversion-1-29-25.pdf\">urged Bonta\u003c/a> to take immediate legal action to protect OpenAI’s charitable assets, arguing his office had both the authority and the responsibility to do so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063671\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063671\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/RobBontaAP.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/RobBontaAP.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/RobBontaAP-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/RobBontaAP-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">California Attorney General Rob Bonta speaks to reporters as Arizona Attorney General Kris Mayes, left, and Oregon Attorney General Dan Rayfield, right, listen outside the Supreme Court on Wednesday, Nov. 5, 2025, in Washington, D.C. \u003ccite>(Mark Schiefelbein/AP Photo)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034916/about-benefiting-humanity-calls-grow-for-openai-to-make-good-on-its-promises\">More than 50 organizations\u003c/a> also petitioned Bonta to halt OpenAI’s for-profit conversion until he calculated the full market value of OpenAI’s nonprofit assets, estimated at the time at up to $300 billion, and directed OpenAI to transfer that value to independent nonprofit entities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s not too late for the Attorney General to revisit his agreement with OpenAI,” wrote Catherine Bracy, founder and CEO of TechEquity, an Oakland-based tech accountability organization. “The evidence this trial unearths, especially how OpenAI violated its original charitable mission in pursuit of profit, will likely leave him no choice.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Chan Loui is among those scratching her head over a basic question: why does Musk get to bring this case at all? “He’s a competitor,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A personal fraud claim, that Altman lied to him to get his money, might have given Musk the clearest standing as an injured party. But Musk voluntarily dismissed those claims late last week. What remains rests almost entirely on a public interest argument, one that California’s attorney general, not a billionaire with a rival AI company of his own, would typically make. [aside postID=news_12079896 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Daniel-Moreno-Gama-AP.jpg']Chan Loui worries about what it would mean if Judge Gonzalez Rogers effectively threw out that hard-won agreement between the attorneys general and OpenAI, essentially substituting a billionaire rival’s lawsuit for the state’s own regulatory process, whatever its deficiencies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You don’t want just anyone, any donor to complain,” Chan Loui said. “We have all this litigation against charities.” She said she sympathizes with those who want OpenAI to recommit as fully as possible to its original ethos, but she worries about what legal precedents this case could set for everybody else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What’s not in dispute is that this trial will be a riveting spectacle for Silicon Valley, which will be watching this case with a mix of curiosity and fear. Judge Gonzalez Rogers has already proven \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-epic-v-apple-decision-win-california-law-protecting\">she will rule\u003c/a> against powerful tech companies when she determines the law demands it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Also, the documents already unsealed suggest that what gets said in that Oakland courtroom may reveal a lot more about how Silicon Valley’s AI elite actually operates than anything previously said or posted in public.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“How much is OpenAI worth? Most of \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/business/openai-lays-groundwork-juggernaut-ipo-up-1-trillion-valuation-2025-10-29/\">$1 trillion\u003c/a>?” Bullock said. “There are ways that you could unscramble this omelet, but it would be extremely difficult, and it would be a massive headache for everyone involved.” He anticipates that whoever ends up on the losing end of this case will appeal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "How to Unscramble an Omelet in Silicon Valley: The Musk v. Altman Trial That Will Try | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Starting Monday in Oakland, a federal judge will consider \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101912956/its-elon-musks-world-were-just-living-in-it\">Elon Musk\u003c/a>’s claim that Sam Altman and OpenAI abandoned their founding promise to develop AI for the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034916/about-benefiting-humanity-calls-grow-for-openai-to-make-good-on-its-promises\">benefit of humanity\u003c/a>, rather than solely for profit. At stake is not just $134 billion in potential damages, but whether it matters, legally speaking, that one of the most powerful AI companies in the world was built on a lie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk and Altman co-founded OpenAI in 2015 as a nonprofit research lab, along with Greg Brockman, an AI researcher and entrepreneur, and others prominent in the field, but Musk left the company after a bitter falling out in 2018.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The following year, OpenAI established its first for-profit subsidiary, with investor returns capped at 100 times their investment. This structure would eventually evolve into the nearly trillion-dollar public benefit corporation OpenAI became in 2025. A public benefit corporation is essentially a for-profit company with a mission statement it’s legally required to consider, but not necessarily to prioritize.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This\u003ca href=\"https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69013420/musk-v-altman/\"> lawsuit\u003c/a>, filed in 2024, originally alleged that Altman and Brockman ran a ‘long con,’ conspiring to enrich themselves at Musk’s expense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the eve of trial, in a move OpenAI called “evasive,” Musk’s lawyers voluntarily dismissed those personal fraud claims. What proceeds to trial today are two claims that go beyond Musk’s personal grievance: unjust enrichment and breach of charitable trust — essentially, the argument that OpenAI betrayed, not just Musk, but the public it promised to serve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>OpenAI argues Musk was fully aware the research lab needed to evolve beyond its nonprofit structure, because he participated in those early discussions, and even proposed folding OpenAI into Tesla. Now, OpenAI’s lawyers argue, Musk is disingenuously trying to use the courts to kneecap the most prominent rival to his own weaker and more controversial AI venture, xAI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12075430\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12075430\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-Elon-Musk-Trial-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-Elon-Musk-Trial-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-Elon-Musk-Trial-03-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-Elon-Musk-Trial-03-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A courtroom sketch depicts Elon Musk on the stand on March 4, 2026. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Motivated by jealousy, regret for walking away from OpenAI and a desire to derail a competing AI company, Elon has spent years harassing OpenAI through baseless lawsuits and public attacks,” the company\u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/index/openai-elon-musk/\"> posted\u003c/a> on its website, where it also offers a\u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/index/elon-musk-wanted-an-openai-for-profit/\"> timeline\u003c/a> that Musk v. Altman et al case watchers will find helpful as they follow what promises to be a barnburner of a trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69013420/musk-v-altman/?page=3\">Hundreds of court filings\u003c/a> provide a dishy treasure trove of private communications worthy of a telenovela, including some juicy excerpts from Brockman’s personal journal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He writes about Musk, “it’d be wrong to steal the nonprofit from him. … that’d be pretty morally bankrupt. and he’s really not an idiot.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Also, “Financially, what will take me to $1B?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But without a doubt, it is the beef between Musk and Altman that will dominate this show. “They really do not like each other. That part is not fake,” said Charlie Bullock, a senior research fellow at the nonprofit Institute for Law and AI who advises state and federal policy makers on AI governance topics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This trial promises to put on lurid public display a mini-universe of incestuous business relationships between men famous for rewriting rules rather than following them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Personal spite between Musk and Altman aside, Bullock said, “We’re going to learn a lot over the course of this case and from the conclusion of this case about whether the legal system can meaningfully constrain frontier AI labs.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This trial, Bullock told KQED, is “sort of the fallback option” in the absence of other checks on bad behavior in the AI space, such as federal regulation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There is, for instance, a well-established law in California about nonprofits, for-profits, and how transitions between the two should be regulated. Whether and how it applies in this case is up to U.S. District Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers in Oakland to determine over the next month.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>OpenAI is like nothing that’s come before\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Jill Horwitz, a law professor at Northwestern University and faculty director of the Lowell Milken Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofits at UCLA Law, likens OpenAI’s unique structure to “An enormous tail on a tiny dog.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The tail is the operating company, which is what everybody thinks of as being OpenAI, and the dog is the nonprofit, and it’s tiny. And it remains to be seen whether that board can be independent enough, because there’s such overlap between the nonprofit board and the for-profit board,” Horwitz said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12054564\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12054564 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/Sam-Altman_chatpgt.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/Sam-Altman_chatpgt.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/Sam-Altman_chatpgt-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/Sam-Altman_chatpgt-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Samuel Altman, CEO of OpenAI, testifies before the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Privacy, Technology and the Law on May 16, 2023, in Washington, D.C. \u003ccite>(Win McNamee/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“It’s a weird structure. OpenAI isn’t one company. OpenAI is an interconnected group of companies. But it all is supposed to be advancing the nonprofit purpose,” Horwitz told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2018, even as OpenAI was privately contemplating the for-profit restructuring, it voluntarily adopted a new charter that restated and even strengthened its commitment to the public mission articulated at its founding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In part, this had to do with the pressure Altman and OpenAI felt to attract top AI researchers, many of whom are concerned about the ethics of unleashing world-changing software on the rest of us. In 2024, 13 current and former OpenAI and Google DeepMind employees took the extraordinary step of publishing an \u003ca href=\"https://righttowarn.ai\">open letter\u003c/a> titled “Right to Warn,” calling out their own industry, and asking for protection if they warned the public.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“We are hopeful that these risks can be adequately mitigated with sufficient guidance from the scientific community, policymakers, and the public. However, AI companies have strong financial incentives to avoid effective oversight, and we do not believe bespoke structures of corporate governance are sufficient to change this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To this day, it remains unclear whether Altman’s talk about benefiting humanity was anything more than a savvy sales pitch designed to attract top AI talent and allay the concerns of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11976097/california-lawmakers-take-on-ai-regulation-with-a-host-of-bills\">federal regulators\u003c/a>. This is one of the key questions trial watchers will be most keen to see answered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s quite typical for scientific research organizations to do all the hard work of the research before their IP is sold to a for-profit company for practical purposes,” said Rose Chan Loui, founding executive director of the Lowell Milken Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofits at UCLA Law.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What makes OpenAI unusual, Chan Loui said, is how explicitly and repeatedly the AI developer bound itself to promising its AI would be developed safely and for the benefit of all of humanity. “When they opened up to investment and formed the subsidiary, they recommitted to that purpose. They tied themselves even more tightly.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Anthropic, founded by former OpenAI employees who left over concerns about the company’s direction, has cultivated a reputation as the more safety-conscious, ethically serious player in the AI race, the light gray hat to OpenAI’s dark gray one. Anthropic chose to incorporate as a public benefit corporation from the beginning, rather than a nonprofit, because a public benefit corporation has far more legal flexibility. “Anthropic may be behaving in a way that the public thinks is more charitable, but its legal duties to do so are a lot lower than OpenAI’s,” Horwitz said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>But is Musk the right party to bring this suit?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For legal eagles following this case, it’s curious that Musk is the plaintiff, rather than California’s attorney general, who is the primary legal guardian of charitable assets in the state, where most of OpenAI’s assets are located. But in 2025, Attorney General Rob Bonta negotiated a binding \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/attachments/press-docs/Final%20Executed%20MOU%20Between%20OpenAI%20and%20California%20AG%20re%20Notice%20of%20Conditions%20of%20Non-Objection%20%2810.27.2025%29%20%28Signed%20by%20OpenAI%29%20%28Signed%20by%20CA%20DOJ%29.pdf\">memorandum of understanding\u003c/a> with OpenAI. The AG in Delaware, where OpenAI is incorporated, issued a parallel statement of non-objection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A coalition of more than 30 California foundations and nonprofit organizations, including the San Francisco Foundation and TechEquity, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sff.org/Offsite-Media/Charitable-coalition-letter-on-OpenAI-conversion-1-29-25.pdf\">urged Bonta\u003c/a> to take immediate legal action to protect OpenAI’s charitable assets, arguing his office had both the authority and the responsibility to do so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063671\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063671\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/RobBontaAP.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/RobBontaAP.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/RobBontaAP-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/RobBontaAP-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">California Attorney General Rob Bonta speaks to reporters as Arizona Attorney General Kris Mayes, left, and Oregon Attorney General Dan Rayfield, right, listen outside the Supreme Court on Wednesday, Nov. 5, 2025, in Washington, D.C. \u003ccite>(Mark Schiefelbein/AP Photo)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034916/about-benefiting-humanity-calls-grow-for-openai-to-make-good-on-its-promises\">More than 50 organizations\u003c/a> also petitioned Bonta to halt OpenAI’s for-profit conversion until he calculated the full market value of OpenAI’s nonprofit assets, estimated at the time at up to $300 billion, and directed OpenAI to transfer that value to independent nonprofit entities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s not too late for the Attorney General to revisit his agreement with OpenAI,” wrote Catherine Bracy, founder and CEO of TechEquity, an Oakland-based tech accountability organization. “The evidence this trial unearths, especially how OpenAI violated its original charitable mission in pursuit of profit, will likely leave him no choice.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Chan Loui is among those scratching her head over a basic question: why does Musk get to bring this case at all? “He’s a competitor,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A personal fraud claim, that Altman lied to him to get his money, might have given Musk the clearest standing as an injured party. But Musk voluntarily dismissed those claims late last week. What remains rests almost entirely on a public interest argument, one that California’s attorney general, not a billionaire with a rival AI company of his own, would typically make. \u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Chan Loui worries about what it would mean if Judge Gonzalez Rogers effectively threw out that hard-won agreement between the attorneys general and OpenAI, essentially substituting a billionaire rival’s lawsuit for the state’s own regulatory process, whatever its deficiencies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You don’t want just anyone, any donor to complain,” Chan Loui said. “We have all this litigation against charities.” She said she sympathizes with those who want OpenAI to recommit as fully as possible to its original ethos, but she worries about what legal precedents this case could set for everybody else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What’s not in dispute is that this trial will be a riveting spectacle for Silicon Valley, which will be watching this case with a mix of curiosity and fear. Judge Gonzalez Rogers has already proven \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-epic-v-apple-decision-win-california-law-protecting\">she will rule\u003c/a> against powerful tech companies when she determines the law demands it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Also, the documents already unsealed suggest that what gets said in that Oakland courtroom may reveal a lot more about how Silicon Valley’s AI elite actually operates than anything previously said or posted in public.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“How much is OpenAI worth? Most of \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/business/openai-lays-groundwork-juggernaut-ipo-up-1-trillion-valuation-2025-10-29/\">$1 trillion\u003c/a>?” Bullock said. “There are ways that you could unscramble this omelet, but it would be extremely difficult, and it would be a massive headache for everyone involved.” He anticipates that whoever ends up on the losing end of this case will appeal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>On a sunny Friday afternoon at Memorial Glade, the center of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/uc-berkeley\">UC Berkeley’s campus\u003c/a>, students set up volleyball nets, cornhole, picnic blankets and a makeshift plywood stage for live music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Their goal? To throw a phone-free party.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Music blasted from a speaker near a snack table. Colorful, handwritten signs read messages like “Favorite app? Delete it,” and “Take back your mind.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At a check-in table, students had the option to seal their cell phones in a plastic bag. Nearby, students propped up gravestones cut out of posterboard, each bearing the logo of a different social media app.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The event was hosted by \u003ca href=\"https://www.projectreboot.school/\">Project Reboot\u003c/a>, an organization born on Berkeley’s campus, with the mission of helping young people “reset their tech habits, reclaim their time and regain their focus.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The project began in the form of a semester-long class that helped students reduce their screen time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081401\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12081401 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1500\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones1-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones1-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A handmade sign reads “Live With Intention” at a phone-free event at UC Berkeley on Friday, April 24, 2026. \u003ccite>(Eliza Peppel/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I feel like [screen] addiction has kind of been our birthright,” said Dawson Kelly, a third-year student and one of the event’s hosts. Kelly said he’s working on a thesis about digital dependence. “We need more infrastructure for our generation to take back our time, take back our agency, and look at all the things that have been stolen from us, and not let this be the anxious generation that we’ve been made out to be.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sahar Yousef, a Berkeley neuroscientist and lecturer who serves on Project Reboot’s research advisory board, said her students are increasingly pushing back “against the default of being on their phones, constantly scrolling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is truly a demonstration that they’ve wanted to put together,” Yousef said, “to demonstrate what has really been taken from them.”[aside postID=news_12078253 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240104-PEOPLES-PARK-MD-05-1020x680.jpg']According to a survey of UC Berkeley undergraduates, 78% of students reported that they believe their phone use “prevents them from thinking deeply, being creative, or engaging fully with ideas.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Third-year students Ashlyn Torres and Izzy Newman said they found out about Friday’s event from a flier, instead of through the usual social media channels. Torres said she left her phone at home before joining.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was different this morning because I was able to recognize there is life around me,” she said. “And we probably should talk to each other more and just listen to what the world has to offer rather than just what our phones have to offer.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jonny Vasquez is a third-year student and advocate for reduced screen time on campus. To reach other students, he said, he started standing in a busy area of campus holding a sign that read, “Lowest screentime contest.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People would either completely ignore the sign,” Vasquez said, “or they would come up and say, ‘Oh my goodness, I’ve been waiting for someone to help us with this.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Vasquez said that since he deleted his social media accounts, he’s stopped comparing himself to others and experiences greater overall satisfaction with his life. He said he hopes to continue to share that with others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081399\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081399\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones3.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1500\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones3.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones3-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones3-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Students rally during a game of volleyball on the grass at a phone-free gathering at UC Berkeley on Friday, April 24, 2026. \u003ccite>(Eliza Peppel/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Several students offered each other tips about creating some distance with their phones, including plugging it in out of reach overnight, turning it completely off while socializing, and leaning on a community with like-minded goals to hold each other accountable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly said that the movement the students hope to create is about their personal agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“These are the peak years of our lives, and they’ve been stolen from us by companies that are making billions and billions of dollars every single year to take as much of our time as possible. We have to fight back, and we fight back by connecting and engaging in a life that we should have been living from the beginning.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At a check-in table, students had the option to seal their cell phones in a plastic bag. Nearby, students propped up gravestones cut out of posterboard, each bearing the logo of a different social media app.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The event was hosted by \u003ca href=\"https://www.projectreboot.school/\">Project Reboot\u003c/a>, an organization born on Berkeley’s campus, with the mission of helping young people “reset their tech habits, reclaim their time and regain their focus.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The project began in the form of a semester-long class that helped students reduce their screen time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081401\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12081401 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1500\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones1-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones1-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A handmade sign reads “Live With Intention” at a phone-free event at UC Berkeley on Friday, April 24, 2026. \u003ccite>(Eliza Peppel/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I feel like [screen] addiction has kind of been our birthright,” said Dawson Kelly, a third-year student and one of the event’s hosts. Kelly said he’s working on a thesis about digital dependence. “We need more infrastructure for our generation to take back our time, take back our agency, and look at all the things that have been stolen from us, and not let this be the anxious generation that we’ve been made out to be.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sahar Yousef, a Berkeley neuroscientist and lecturer who serves on Project Reboot’s research advisory board, said her students are increasingly pushing back “against the default of being on their phones, constantly scrolling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is truly a demonstration that they’ve wanted to put together,” Yousef said, “to demonstrate what has really been taken from them.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>According to a survey of UC Berkeley undergraduates, 78% of students reported that they believe their phone use “prevents them from thinking deeply, being creative, or engaging fully with ideas.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Third-year students Ashlyn Torres and Izzy Newman said they found out about Friday’s event from a flier, instead of through the usual social media channels. Torres said she left her phone at home before joining.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was different this morning because I was able to recognize there is life around me,” she said. “And we probably should talk to each other more and just listen to what the world has to offer rather than just what our phones have to offer.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jonny Vasquez is a third-year student and advocate for reduced screen time on campus. To reach other students, he said, he started standing in a busy area of campus holding a sign that read, “Lowest screentime contest.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People would either completely ignore the sign,” Vasquez said, “or they would come up and say, ‘Oh my goodness, I’ve been waiting for someone to help us with this.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Vasquez said that since he deleted his social media accounts, he’s stopped comparing himself to others and experiences greater overall satisfaction with his life. He said he hopes to continue to share that with others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081399\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081399\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones3.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1500\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones3.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones3-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/UCBNoPhones3-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Students rally during a game of volleyball on the grass at a phone-free gathering at UC Berkeley on Friday, April 24, 2026. \u003ccite>(Eliza Peppel/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Several students offered each other tips about creating some distance with their phones, including plugging it in out of reach overnight, turning it completely off while socializing, and leaning on a community with like-minded goals to hold each other accountable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly said that the movement the students hope to create is about their personal agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“These are the peak years of our lives, and they’ve been stolen from us by companies that are making billions and billions of dollars every single year to take as much of our time as possible. We have to fight back, and we fight back by connecting and engaging in a life that we should have been living from the beginning.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "After a Potential Mythos Breach, Why Do Developers Use Such Powerful AI Models?",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/ai\">Artificial intelligence\u003c/a> is making life easier for some — and a lot harder for others. San Francisco-based AI firm Anthropic — which also developed the chatbot Claude — earlier this month released Mythos, a powerful model \u003ca href=\"https://red.anthropic.com/2026/mythos-preview/\">developers claim\u003c/a> can identify and exploit “vulnerabilities in every major operating system and every major web browser when directed by a user to do so.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Anthropic has only given a few companies — among them JPMorgan Chase, cybersecurity giant CrowdStrike and fellow AI developers Google and Amazon — access to Mythos as part of what it’s calling “Project Glasswing.” The goal of this partnership, Anthropic \u003ca href=\"https://www.anthropic.com/glasswing\">said\u003c/a>, is to use Mythos to prevent hackers (who \u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2025/11/13/anthropic-china-claude-code-cyberattack\">are using\u003c/a> their own powerful AI models) from targeting the weak spots in the software that helps these massive corporations run.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But despite the high level of secrecy surrounding its model, Anthropic confirmed to KQED on Thursday that it is currently investigating a report of “unauthorized access” to Mythos through one of the third-party vendors helping develop the software. The company has not found any evidence yet that Anthropic systems have been affected or that the reported activity extends beyond the third-party vendor environment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even before this latest incident, \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/mythos-anthropic-ai-explainer-9.7171597\">multiple cybersecurity experts\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/bessent-powell-warn-bank-ceos-about-anthropic-model-risks-bloomberg-news-reports-2026-04-10/\">global leaders\u003c/a> raised concerns about the power of Mythos and the potential consequences if this software fell into the wrong hands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this week, KQED’s Forum \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101913607/anthropics-new-ai-mythos-is-a-cybersecurity-game-changer\">spoke with\u003c/a> Alex Stamos, computer science lecturer at Stanford University and chief product officer for San Francisco-based AI firm Corridor, to understand why developers still move forward with creating such powerful technology despite the potential risks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Keep reading for the takeaways from his conversation with KQED’s Mina Kim, including insights on how folks who are not software engineers can sift through all the buzz surrounding this quickly evolving technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Skip ahead to:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#WhyarecybersecurityexpertssoworriedaboutMythos\">Why are cybersecurity experts so worried about Mythos?\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#WhywouldAnthropiclimitwhocanusethistechnology\">Why would Anthropic limit who can use this technology?\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#IsthefederalgovernmentalsousingMythos\">Is the federal government also using Mythos?\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#Whyusesuchapowerfulbutunpredictabletechnologyatall\">Why use such a powerful — but unpredictable — technology at all?\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This conversation has been edited for length and clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim: What is Mythos capable of?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Stamos:\u003c/strong> Mythos is a model that Anthropic has not released publicly. They’ve provided it to a very small number of large companies to use privately, as well as to some very important open-source projects to use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Anthropic believes Mythos marks a large-scale change from the AI capabilities that have existed in the past. They’ve now been able to find thousands of vulnerabilities instead of just dozens or hundreds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What we’ve seen in the past is that these things are really good at finding bugs, and they’re much faster than humans. But now Mythos is even better than the best human security consultants and security engineers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081283\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081283\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Anthropic website and the company’s logo are displayed on a computer screen in New York on Feb. 26, 2026. \u003ccite>(Patrick Sison/AP Photo)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca id=\"WhyarecybersecurityexpertssoworriedaboutMythos\">\u003c/a>You’re describing an incredible tool to find bugs, holes and issues that we have not seen before so that we can defend against them. So why is it scaring people so much?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s scaring people because the first step in attacking a system is finding flaws in that system. In the cybersecurity world, we use a term called the kill chain. This is a term we borrowed from the military.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the military uses it, it refers to discovering an asset, doing reconnaissance, and figuring out how to deliver a weapon on a target.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the cyber world, the kill chain involves reconnaissance, finding a flaw in a system used by a target, weaponizing that flaw, delivering the exploit, establishing command and control of the system, exploring the network, moving through it, and then doing whatever you want — whether that’s stealing data, shutting down a system, or encrypting it for ransom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Major AI companies, like Anthropic and OpenAI, have released threat reports — building on earlier efforts from companies like Facebook and Google— that show how people use these platforms for malicious activity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those reports show that advanced threat actors are using AI to automate other parts of the attack process, like exploring networks, breaking in and establishing control channels.[aside postID=news_12076608 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/Billboard-AI-Illustration_6.jpg']What we’re seeing is attackers taking tasks that used to require human effort — and therefore had limits — and using AI to make them faster and cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>And I imagine that our ability to patch or defend against these activities pales in comparison, or am I wrong? Do the patches exist, and are they easy to implement?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is where AI can help. AI can find flaws, and it can also write patches. That’s the good news. That’s why Anthropic is providing Mythos to companies and open-source maintainers — not just to find bugs, but to fix them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What we’re trying to do as an industry right now is fix vulnerabilities before adversaries can exploit them. There’s a race underway. The most advanced models — what we call foundation models, like those from Anthropic, OpenAI and Google — are currently ahead of open-weight models, many of which are developed by Chinese companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>A listener writes: ‘Anthropic is releasing their models as a warning, but there’s no federal or state guidelines on this. Are we close to government regulatory action at all?’\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The current administration \u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2026/04/23/trump-picked-a-fight-with-anthropic-now-the-administration-is-backing-off-00889241\">came down on Anthropic\u003c/a> because they thought they were too ethical … Of the major AI labs, I think Anthropic is the one with the most deep-seated ethical frameworks. I think we’re fortunate that they have the models that are the best at bug-finding, and they’re setting a good standard here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca id=\"IsthefederalgovernmentalsousingMythos\">\u003c/a>Do you know the extent to which the federal government is also using Mythos to search for and patch its own security vulnerabilities?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My understanding is that U.S. Cyber Command has been testing Mythos. Now the fascinating question is: How is the U.S. government going to use it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the National Security Agency, after the \u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/nov/01/snowden-nsa-files-surveillance-revelations-decoded#section/1\">Snowden disclosures\u003c/a>, there is the creation of this thing called the \u003ca href=\"https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/sites/whitehouse.gov/files/images/External%20-%20Unclassified%20VEP%20Charter%20FINAL.PDF\">Vulnerabilities Equities Process\u003c/a>, which is the process by which NSA and U.S.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079281\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079281\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Hegseth-Side-by-Side-c.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1460\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Hegseth-Side-by-Side-c.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Hegseth-Side-by-Side-c-160x118.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Hegseth-Side-by-Side-c-1536x1133.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Anthropic co-founder and CEO Dario Amodei speaks at INBOUND 2025 on Sept. 4, 2025, in San Francisco, California. Right: Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth listens during a Pentagon briefing on April 8, 2026, in Arlington, Virginia. \u003ccite>(Chance Yeh/Getty Images for HubSpot; Andrew Harnik/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Cyber Command — which have both a defensive responsibility and an offensive responsibility — are supposed to think about if we know of a bug, do we use it against America’s enemies, or do we get it fixed to defend America?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Are they only gonna use Mythos to find bugs to be used against America’s enemies, or are they going to use it for defensive purposes? And what is Anthropic’s response going to be?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Will Anthropic put restrictions so you can only use Mythos for defensive purposes —or will they allow Mythos to be used for offensive purposes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Can they even control that once they let them have access to it?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I don’t know. I don’t think so. For the most part, my understanding is Anthropic’s models that the NSA is using and Cyber Command are probably running in \u003ca href=\"https://aws.amazon.com/bedrock/\">Amazon Bedrock\u003c/a> … what’s called Amazon’s top secret cloud, which means that Anthropic’s employees — at least those without top secret clearance — will not have access to any of the logs there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca id=\"WhywouldAnthropiclimitwhocanusethistechnology\">\u003c/a>A listener writes: ‘If Anthropic lacks capacity to handle Mythos right now, why release it at all? If they want big companies to evaluate it, why publicize it? Seems fishy.’\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I don’t think it’s fishy. This is a normal part of any release process is that you have a small set of testers. They’re also improving it by doing this. Anthropic gets feedback on this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These people find bugs. They also find false positives. If Mythos finds a bug and JPMorgan Chase says, ‘This isn’t a real bug,’ then that goes back into the training set for the next build of Mythos. Anthropic, I think, truly believes they’re doing the right thing here by getting these bugs fixed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca id=\"Whyusesuchapowerfulbutunpredictabletechnologyatall\">\u003c/a>There’s really no going back once this tool is out there, right? But I can hear people asking, why even build these tools in the first place? Why are they even free to do this in the first place if they’re so dangerous and can create such havoc? Is it just inevitable?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re getting philosophical. This is the core conflict at the heart of Anthropic, but also other AI companies’ reason for existence … Part of the argument here is it’s just math. Once these ideas were released, it was inevitable people would have this progress.[aside postID=forum_2010101913607 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2026/04/GettyImages-2269887514-2000x1331.jpg']It’s not like the atomic bomb, where you have to have uranium and a huge industrial base. This just requires laptops and graphics cards. Other countries, other people, other companies will be doing it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you believe that you can build an ethical framework to do it well, then you believe that you should do it first and do it correctly. In this case, you could try to mitigate the harm by finding all these bugs and getting them fixed or fixing the software first before other people do it and actually do it harmfully.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>A listener writes: ‘You’re talking about cyberattacks on a large scale with large companies or countries. But what about me? Should I be worried about people hacking into my personal computer or phone or something?’ What can we do?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>About Mythos, nothing. That’s not something that individual people should be dealing with. The way normal people are hacked in 2026 is the same way normal people were hacked in 2016, 2006 and maybe even 1996. The number one way normal people are hacked is they use the same password in every single website all day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Get a password manager and put all your passwords in there. Have it generate random passwords and then have one really good password, and then you can write it down. I know people say don’t write down passwords, but that’s really stupid because nobody can steal the password in your pocket from Russia. If it’s in your wallet or your purse, they can’t reach from five thousand miles away and take it out of your wallet or purse. Nobody mugs you for your password.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What are we likely to see in the next couple of years with these models rolling out? What should we be prepared for in this sort of initial period?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our product road map at Corridor is three months long right now. Because if you plan beyond three months, everything has changed in our industry. For the first time ever, technology is building technology. From a security perspective, a lot depends on which of two futures we’re living in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the optimistic future, the bug curve flattens out. The superhuman capabilities end up not inventing entirely new classes of vulnerabilities. At least the types of bugs are the kinds we’ve seen before. There’s a finite number of them, and we’re just draining the swamp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The pessimistic future is that these new things invent things that I don’t know exist. The hard part is, I can’t really guess because I am predicting superhuman capabilities here. For superhuman models that are gonna be invented by the models that exist right now. In the pessimistic view, we are going to have to work with AI to rebuild the systems that our lives rely upon, using memory-safe and type-safe languages, using formal models.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "AI firm Anthropic is investigating a potential breach of its new model, Mythos. But developers say that developing such powerful AI technology is necessary to prevent future — and potentially more dangerous — cyberattacks.",
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"title": "After a Potential Mythos Breach, Why Do Developers Use Such Powerful AI Models? | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/ai\">Artificial intelligence\u003c/a> is making life easier for some — and a lot harder for others. San Francisco-based AI firm Anthropic — which also developed the chatbot Claude — earlier this month released Mythos, a powerful model \u003ca href=\"https://red.anthropic.com/2026/mythos-preview/\">developers claim\u003c/a> can identify and exploit “vulnerabilities in every major operating system and every major web browser when directed by a user to do so.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Anthropic has only given a few companies — among them JPMorgan Chase, cybersecurity giant CrowdStrike and fellow AI developers Google and Amazon — access to Mythos as part of what it’s calling “Project Glasswing.” The goal of this partnership, Anthropic \u003ca href=\"https://www.anthropic.com/glasswing\">said\u003c/a>, is to use Mythos to prevent hackers (who \u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2025/11/13/anthropic-china-claude-code-cyberattack\">are using\u003c/a> their own powerful AI models) from targeting the weak spots in the software that helps these massive corporations run.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But despite the high level of secrecy surrounding its model, Anthropic confirmed to KQED on Thursday that it is currently investigating a report of “unauthorized access” to Mythos through one of the third-party vendors helping develop the software. The company has not found any evidence yet that Anthropic systems have been affected or that the reported activity extends beyond the third-party vendor environment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even before this latest incident, \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/mythos-anthropic-ai-explainer-9.7171597\">multiple cybersecurity experts\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/bessent-powell-warn-bank-ceos-about-anthropic-model-risks-bloomberg-news-reports-2026-04-10/\">global leaders\u003c/a> raised concerns about the power of Mythos and the potential consequences if this software fell into the wrong hands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this week, KQED’s Forum \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101913607/anthropics-new-ai-mythos-is-a-cybersecurity-game-changer\">spoke with\u003c/a> Alex Stamos, computer science lecturer at Stanford University and chief product officer for San Francisco-based AI firm Corridor, to understand why developers still move forward with creating such powerful technology despite the potential risks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Keep reading for the takeaways from his conversation with KQED’s Mina Kim, including insights on how folks who are not software engineers can sift through all the buzz surrounding this quickly evolving technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Skip ahead to:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#WhyarecybersecurityexpertssoworriedaboutMythos\">Why are cybersecurity experts so worried about Mythos?\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#WhywouldAnthropiclimitwhocanusethistechnology\">Why would Anthropic limit who can use this technology?\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#IsthefederalgovernmentalsousingMythos\">Is the federal government also using Mythos?\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#Whyusesuchapowerfulbutunpredictabletechnologyatall\">Why use such a powerful — but unpredictable — technology at all?\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This conversation has been edited for length and clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim: What is Mythos capable of?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alex Stamos:\u003c/strong> Mythos is a model that Anthropic has not released publicly. They’ve provided it to a very small number of large companies to use privately, as well as to some very important open-source projects to use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Anthropic believes Mythos marks a large-scale change from the AI capabilities that have existed in the past. They’ve now been able to find thousands of vulnerabilities instead of just dozens or hundreds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What we’ve seen in the past is that these things are really good at finding bugs, and they’re much faster than humans. But now Mythos is even better than the best human security consultants and security engineers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081283\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081283\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/AnthropicAP-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Anthropic website and the company’s logo are displayed on a computer screen in New York on Feb. 26, 2026. \u003ccite>(Patrick Sison/AP Photo)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca id=\"WhyarecybersecurityexpertssoworriedaboutMythos\">\u003c/a>You’re describing an incredible tool to find bugs, holes and issues that we have not seen before so that we can defend against them. So why is it scaring people so much?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s scaring people because the first step in attacking a system is finding flaws in that system. In the cybersecurity world, we use a term called the kill chain. This is a term we borrowed from the military.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the military uses it, it refers to discovering an asset, doing reconnaissance, and figuring out how to deliver a weapon on a target.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the cyber world, the kill chain involves reconnaissance, finding a flaw in a system used by a target, weaponizing that flaw, delivering the exploit, establishing command and control of the system, exploring the network, moving through it, and then doing whatever you want — whether that’s stealing data, shutting down a system, or encrypting it for ransom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Major AI companies, like Anthropic and OpenAI, have released threat reports — building on earlier efforts from companies like Facebook and Google— that show how people use these platforms for malicious activity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those reports show that advanced threat actors are using AI to automate other parts of the attack process, like exploring networks, breaking in and establishing control channels.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>What we’re seeing is attackers taking tasks that used to require human effort — and therefore had limits — and using AI to make them faster and cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>And I imagine that our ability to patch or defend against these activities pales in comparison, or am I wrong? Do the patches exist, and are they easy to implement?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is where AI can help. AI can find flaws, and it can also write patches. That’s the good news. That’s why Anthropic is providing Mythos to companies and open-source maintainers — not just to find bugs, but to fix them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What we’re trying to do as an industry right now is fix vulnerabilities before adversaries can exploit them. There’s a race underway. The most advanced models — what we call foundation models, like those from Anthropic, OpenAI and Google — are currently ahead of open-weight models, many of which are developed by Chinese companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>A listener writes: ‘Anthropic is releasing their models as a warning, but there’s no federal or state guidelines on this. Are we close to government regulatory action at all?’\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The current administration \u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2026/04/23/trump-picked-a-fight-with-anthropic-now-the-administration-is-backing-off-00889241\">came down on Anthropic\u003c/a> because they thought they were too ethical … Of the major AI labs, I think Anthropic is the one with the most deep-seated ethical frameworks. I think we’re fortunate that they have the models that are the best at bug-finding, and they’re setting a good standard here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca id=\"IsthefederalgovernmentalsousingMythos\">\u003c/a>Do you know the extent to which the federal government is also using Mythos to search for and patch its own security vulnerabilities?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My understanding is that U.S. Cyber Command has been testing Mythos. Now the fascinating question is: How is the U.S. government going to use it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the National Security Agency, after the \u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/nov/01/snowden-nsa-files-surveillance-revelations-decoded#section/1\">Snowden disclosures\u003c/a>, there is the creation of this thing called the \u003ca href=\"https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/sites/whitehouse.gov/files/images/External%20-%20Unclassified%20VEP%20Charter%20FINAL.PDF\">Vulnerabilities Equities Process\u003c/a>, which is the process by which NSA and U.S.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079281\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079281\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Hegseth-Side-by-Side-c.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1460\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Hegseth-Side-by-Side-c.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Hegseth-Side-by-Side-c-160x118.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Hegseth-Side-by-Side-c-1536x1133.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Anthropic co-founder and CEO Dario Amodei speaks at INBOUND 2025 on Sept. 4, 2025, in San Francisco, California. Right: Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth listens during a Pentagon briefing on April 8, 2026, in Arlington, Virginia. \u003ccite>(Chance Yeh/Getty Images for HubSpot; Andrew Harnik/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Cyber Command — which have both a defensive responsibility and an offensive responsibility — are supposed to think about if we know of a bug, do we use it against America’s enemies, or do we get it fixed to defend America?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Are they only gonna use Mythos to find bugs to be used against America’s enemies, or are they going to use it for defensive purposes? And what is Anthropic’s response going to be?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Will Anthropic put restrictions so you can only use Mythos for defensive purposes —or will they allow Mythos to be used for offensive purposes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Can they even control that once they let them have access to it?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I don’t know. I don’t think so. For the most part, my understanding is Anthropic’s models that the NSA is using and Cyber Command are probably running in \u003ca href=\"https://aws.amazon.com/bedrock/\">Amazon Bedrock\u003c/a> … what’s called Amazon’s top secret cloud, which means that Anthropic’s employees — at least those without top secret clearance — will not have access to any of the logs there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca id=\"WhywouldAnthropiclimitwhocanusethistechnology\">\u003c/a>A listener writes: ‘If Anthropic lacks capacity to handle Mythos right now, why release it at all? If they want big companies to evaluate it, why publicize it? Seems fishy.’\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I don’t think it’s fishy. This is a normal part of any release process is that you have a small set of testers. They’re also improving it by doing this. Anthropic gets feedback on this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These people find bugs. They also find false positives. If Mythos finds a bug and JPMorgan Chase says, ‘This isn’t a real bug,’ then that goes back into the training set for the next build of Mythos. Anthropic, I think, truly believes they’re doing the right thing here by getting these bugs fixed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca id=\"Whyusesuchapowerfulbutunpredictabletechnologyatall\">\u003c/a>There’s really no going back once this tool is out there, right? But I can hear people asking, why even build these tools in the first place? Why are they even free to do this in the first place if they’re so dangerous and can create such havoc? Is it just inevitable?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re getting philosophical. This is the core conflict at the heart of Anthropic, but also other AI companies’ reason for existence … Part of the argument here is it’s just math. Once these ideas were released, it was inevitable people would have this progress.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>It’s not like the atomic bomb, where you have to have uranium and a huge industrial base. This just requires laptops and graphics cards. Other countries, other people, other companies will be doing it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you believe that you can build an ethical framework to do it well, then you believe that you should do it first and do it correctly. In this case, you could try to mitigate the harm by finding all these bugs and getting them fixed or fixing the software first before other people do it and actually do it harmfully.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>A listener writes: ‘You’re talking about cyberattacks on a large scale with large companies or countries. But what about me? Should I be worried about people hacking into my personal computer or phone or something?’ What can we do?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>About Mythos, nothing. That’s not something that individual people should be dealing with. The way normal people are hacked in 2026 is the same way normal people were hacked in 2016, 2006 and maybe even 1996. The number one way normal people are hacked is they use the same password in every single website all day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Get a password manager and put all your passwords in there. Have it generate random passwords and then have one really good password, and then you can write it down. I know people say don’t write down passwords, but that’s really stupid because nobody can steal the password in your pocket from Russia. If it’s in your wallet or your purse, they can’t reach from five thousand miles away and take it out of your wallet or purse. Nobody mugs you for your password.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What are we likely to see in the next couple of years with these models rolling out? What should we be prepared for in this sort of initial period?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our product road map at Corridor is three months long right now. Because if you plan beyond three months, everything has changed in our industry. For the first time ever, technology is building technology. From a security perspective, a lot depends on which of two futures we’re living in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the optimistic future, the bug curve flattens out. The superhuman capabilities end up not inventing entirely new classes of vulnerabilities. At least the types of bugs are the kinds we’ve seen before. There’s a finite number of them, and we’re just draining the swamp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The pessimistic future is that these new things invent things that I don’t know exist. The hard part is, I can’t really guess because I am predicting superhuman capabilities here. For superhuman models that are gonna be invented by the models that exist right now. In the pessimistic view, we are going to have to work with AI to rebuild the systems that our lives rely upon, using memory-safe and type-safe languages, using formal models.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
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"soldout": {
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