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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Life on an H-1B visa — a visa that lets U.S. companies hire foreign-born workers for specialized jobs — is difficult, unpredictable, and has gotten even harder under the Trump administration. A new gaming studio, Reality Reload, is trying to capture that experience in a mobile game. It’s called H1B.Life, and it simulates the difficult choices, competing priorities, and personal sacrifices visa holders face — complete with chaotic design elements, like all-powerful “gods” who control your fate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED reporter Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman joins Morgan to break down the game’s surprising design choices, the mission behind it, and the stories he heard from people navigating the H1-B process. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2401184331\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/adahlstromeckman\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12076756/what-does-it-take-to-get-a-h-1b-visa-this-video-game-shows-just-how-complicated-it-is\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What Does It Take to Get a H-1B Visa? This Video Game Shows Just How Complicated It Is \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/meta-google-amazon-microsoft-h-1b-visa-applications-decline-2026-4\">Meta, Google, and Amazon slash H-1B petitions after Trump’s visa crackdown\u003c/a> — Geoff Weiss, Melia Russell, Andy Kiersz, and Alex Nicoll, \u003ci>Business Insider \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.insidehighered.com/news/government/state-policy/2026/01/29/faculty-warn-against-state-bans-h-1b-visas\">Faculty Warn Against State Bans on H-1B Visas\u003c/a> — Jessica Blake, \u003ci>\u003ci>Inside Higher Ed \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.the-scientist.com/h-1b-visa-restrictions-will-hurt-america-s-research-potential-experts-say-74267\">H-1B Visa Restrictions Will Hurt America’s Research Potential, Experts Say\u003c/a> — Shelby Bradford, PhD, \u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>The Scientist \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/trump-immigration-visa-secrutiny-tech/\">US Tech Visa Applications Are Being Put Through the Wringer \u003c/a>— Lauren Goode, \u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Wired \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/made-in-china-a-new-game-turns-the-h-1b-visa-system-into-a-surreal-simulation/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A New Game Turns the H-1B Visa System Into a Surreal Simulation \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Zeyi Yang, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wired \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, it’s Morgan. Be honest with me, how many tabs do you have open? Feeling a little overwhelmed by closing them? Well, we have an episode for you. If you like our deep dives and wanna hear more, please rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show and tell your friends about us too. Okay, let’s get to the episode. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Quick note: in this episode we use the term “immigrant” in a broad sense to refer to people living and working in the U.S. on H-1B visas. In legal terms the H1-B is a nonimmigrant temporary visa, though many visa holders hope to stay in the U.S. long term. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every March, a corner of the Chinese social media app Red Note gets flooded with posts about Chick-fil-A. The users go all out, buying Chick-fil-A keychains, changing their profile pictures to the red and white chicken logo, and of course, treating themselves to a hearty meal of a chicken sandwich and waffle fries. You’ll often see the same emojis in each post: prayer hands, a chicken, and an American flag. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these users are applying for the H-1B visa, a visa for highly skilled immigrants sponsored by an employer. Many come to Silicon Valley to work in tech. Hundreds of thousands of hopefuls apply every year, but only 85,000 applicants are selected. So, what does this have to do with fried chicken? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It turns out that there’s a tradition amongst Chinese H-1B applicants here in the United States that they believe that eating a lot of Chick-fil-A and just generally associating with Chick-fil-A brings you luck and will increase your chances of getting selected in the H-1B lottery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman is a reporter at KQED. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And apparently, if you go to a Chick-fil-A here in the Bay Area around March, you’re likely to see a lot of Chinese immigrants who potentially could be H-1B applicants eating there. And it’s not really clear where this started, but it’s definitely a thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Azul said that this trend, the annual Chick-fil-A frenzy on social media, is part of a much bigger story. To even apply for an H-1B visa, you need an employer to sponsor you, which means that you need to have a job offer. It doesn’t guarantee a visa, just that you can enter the lottery. The process for getting an H-1B Visa has been changing, and a system that was already difficult has become even harder for applicants. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is true that with the Trump administration, there has been a lot of changes specifically to this year’s H-1B visa process. The first is that there’s now a $100,000 fee if a company wants to sponsor somebody who isn’t currently living in the country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In wake of the changes and very steep application fee, some universities and companies implemented a hiring freeze for H-1B applicants. And the ones that are still hiring are sponsoring far fewer visas than in previous cycles. The updated application system isn’t totally random anymore. Higher paid applicants have a better chance of being picked now. But for the most part, the application process feels like a game of luck. At the end of the day, it’s still a lottery. Which is why good luck traditions, like getting Chick-fil-A during the registration window, have become baked into the modern mythology of the American immigrant experience. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It can all feel like a game, one in which the rules seem arbitrary and unpredictable. So when Azul heard about a studio turning that experience into a playable app, it made perfect sense. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">H1B.Life is a game that tries to simulate the experience of an immigrant who’s trying to get H1-B visa status. And it’s a pretty early prototype now. Basically, it’s sort of like a text-based decision tree on your smartphone. And I played a demo of it, and it was actually kind of interesting. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So one of the opening scenes of the game says, during high school, you spent hours and hours on your laptop binging Gilmore Girls on shady, unauthorized streaming websites. Everything in your drowsy new town reminds you of the show. If it wasn’t for Lorelai and Rory, you might have never decided to… and then there’s like two decisions, and one is study journalism or come to New England. And I was like, wow, that’s really oddly specific. And it turns out that H1B.Life is based on real-life interviews from H1-B applicants, specifically Chinese immigrants living in Silicon Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re diving into H1B.Life today, the arduous application process, how capricious policy changes impact the trajectory of an immigrant’s entire life, and the cost of chasing a dream, all wrapped up in a mobile game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Before we talk about the game itself, let’s get into the reality that inspired it. And as always, we’re starting by opening a new tab: Life on an H-1B Visa. Last month, the annual Game Developers Conference took over San Francisco. The Asian Art Museum was hosting a showcase for a game that involved chance, timing, and bureaucracy to, “determine who stays and who is deported.” The game was H1B.Life. Azul had heard about the game and decided to check it out. At the event, he talked to a few people about their own experiences with the immigration system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The first person I talked to, his name was Donduk Dovdon, and he’s an ethnically Mongolian, Chinese national who now is a U.S. Citizen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donduk Dovdon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I came to States 12 years ago for my master’s degree in Washington, D.C. And eventually I got H-1B, and then later I got green card. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Donduk said the process demands a lot of sacrifice and that it can be hard to ever feel secure about the future. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He told me it is a very hard and arduous process to get H-1B status. And then even once you have H-1B status, you’re still not secure. You have to work towards getting a green card and then citizenship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donduk Dovdon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I didn’t see my parents for 10 years. I didn’t see any of my relatives for 10 years. So I think that’s still very emotional for me to say. Like, I eventually went back, I think, two years ago when I became citizen. It was so emotional. And I feel… I miss them, they miss me, a huge chapter of our lives…ten years, like many Americans, it’s just unimaginable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Donduk’s 10-year gap without seeing his family may be on the extreme end. H-1B visa holders are technically allowed to travel internationally and re-enter the country, as long as their visa stamp is still valid. But he’s not alone. The decision to stay in the U.S. is often driven by fear of not being allowed back in. Over the last year, given the heightened scrutiny of visa holders and the Trump administration’s immigration crackdown, some legal experts, universities, and even tech companies who employ visa holders have cautioned against international travel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Concerns about travel aside, taking time off to visit family abroad often depends on your employer’s time off policy. H-1B visas hinge on employment. Changing jobs involves a new sponsor and another mountain of paperwork. Some H- 1B visa holders have spoken out about feeling trapped abusive work environments because of their visa status. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donduk Dovdon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was on H-1B, I met various shady employers who technically did not pay me, which was illegal. And it was like, if you dare to report me, you will get your H-1B revoked. So eventually, I was lucky enough and I left that organization, but I heard other people, in order just to get one H-1B, worked for three years free. And after work, they work at a restaurant or bubble tea store illegally for three years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Getting picked in the visa lottery doesn’t guarantee long-term stability either. H-1B visas have a 6-year cap and visa holders have to spend a full year outside of the U.S. before they can reapply. Donduk mentioned one of his friends, who’s also Chinese Mongolian. He recently had to say goodbye to her. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donduk Dovdon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She self-deported herself three or four days ago. We were at the airport. She was on H-1B for five years, but no companies was willing to sponsor her green card. She spent 14 years in the States. She even bought a house. And then she sold the house, sold the car, and moved back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Visa status can be all consuming. At the showcase, Azul spoke with another attendee who’s currently on a different work-based visa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He said that whenever he meets up with other visa holders, the number one thing that they ask each other is ‘what visa are you on? ‘ because it has such a powerful determining factor over what you do, who you date, where you live, where you work. You have to keep your employer happy and they have to continue to sponsor you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>You might need to take a job that takes you traveling out of the country, but with the Trump administration, you know, maybe it’s hard for you to get back into the country based on your country of origin. So I think people are constantly taking risks and living under uncertainty, you know, from one presidential administration to the next. They’re not sure how these rules surrounding H-1B status are going to change. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In his reporting, Azul talked to an immigration lawyer based in Silicon Valley, Sophie Alcorn. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The game metaphor made sense to her that the H-1B process is sort of like a game. She said that her two young sons invite her to play video games when she’s home and she says… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sophie Alcorn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You guys, I’m already playing one of the hardest video games. I don’t need to play another game because the immigration system is so complicated as it is. There’s randomness, there’s luck, there’s skill, there is strategy. There’s trying to go around and collect like, badges and items to upskill to be able to get to the next level just like in a game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In games, players are the most affected by the rules, but they also have the least control over them. Right? Players are beholden to the rules but the people that make the rules are not playing the same game. I mean, you could say that we’re now playing on difficulty level hard with the Trump administration. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s talk about the game itself, H1B life. Donduk, the guy who just got his American citizenship, actually thought the prototype he played was too realistic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He said that the gameplay was a little triggering for him, it was too real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re going to get into that after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, more about the game after the break. Stick with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Welcome back. We’re getting into this game, H1B.Life. Who is it for? How does it work? And can it really help make sense of the immigration process? Let’s open a new tab: How to play the H1-B Visa game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>The immigration system, at times, can seem like a black box to applicants, lawyers, and maybe most of all, to natural born American citizens who’ve never needed to think about this. The seemingly arbitrary rules that can change at the whims of an unseen entity, the gravity of every single decision, the pressure to succeed as the perfect model immigrant, that is the experience that developers are trying to capture in H1B.Life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from H1B.Life Trailer] America the big and beautiful country, but you need a visa. Be talented, big brain, build chips, then you might get an H-1B visa .\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a trailer for H1B.Life, which is still a very long way from being playable. The Kickstarter hasn’t even launched yet, but Azul got to try a demo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s basically like this text-based decision tree. The top half of the screen is like a text prompt and the bottom half is like, a series of choices. And then as you play through the game, you select different choices. There are these like four core attributes that you need to maintain. It’s intelligence, wealth, social support, and burnout rate, right? So this kind of like simulating. The things that it takes to be a person going through the H-1B visa process. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from H1B.Life Trailer] You make smart choices to get that visa and stay. What separates winning from losing is how you react when fate happens. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you play, you’re presented with these different choices, like you’re done with your study abroad program and you go back home to Shanghai and you want to pursue journalism. But maybe you can get a job in this field and get an H-1B visa, so you decide to put off your dream and pursue something else. And as you do that, your core attributes sort of change. And so you’re having to sort of weigh those choices. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can spend social capital, instead of going to, you know, your friend’s birthday party, you stay late at work because, you know, you’re trying to get sponsored, right? So your social support goes down, but you know your intelligence goes up, right? Like, that’s kind of the balancing act. Then what’s promised in subsequent versions of the game is that if those core attributes run out, it triggers a sort of like slot machine feature where different gods decide players fates, and that’s sort of supposed to describe this random nature of the H-1B visa process. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from H1B.Life Trailer] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And don’t forget the immigration gods: code god, free god, fried chicken god, even orange god.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you tell us more about these different gods in the game? I know there’s one called the orange god. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the orange god is the one that caught my eye. The orange god bears a very strong resemblance to Donald Trump. And the orange god claims to control everything and has already changed the policy 500 times before you finish reading the sentence. That’s what the description of the orange is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Allison Yang: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s the newest God in this universe. He’s very powerful. He can destroy your life any minute he wants, and he usually do. So you have to be very careful of him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Alison Yang, the founder of the game studio, Reality Reload. She told Azul about the other gods in the game. So there’s the code god, who looks like a cyborg and is obsessed with tech and optimization. The free god resembles the Statue of Liberty and is supposed to represent the American dream of a free society. And the fried chicken god? A nod to the annual Chick-fil-A tradition. And that god…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…According to the game description, keeps you surviving through the power of fast food grease. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter] Reality Reload is a game studio made up of immigrants, developers, designers, and journalists. The founder, Allison, has a background in journalism. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Allison Yang: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love journalism, but over the years, as an editor and a reporter, I realized less and less people are reading long form, but there’s so much stories and information we want to pass on. I had the luck to step into the game industry for 7-8 years now, and I realized it’s the opposite. Like, people spend a massive amount of time in a the game. They complained one of my games to be too short, play is two hours. At the same time, they would complain that one of my articles is too long. So I thought, what if I turn it around, like a trojan horse. Like we wrap the news or information into a game and people doesn’t have to know that. They’re just playing something fun and they’re exposed to information anyway. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, as Allison told Azul, the point of H1B.Life is to educate people about the complexities of the immigration system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think they started with the H-1B visa because it’s like this caricature of the visa system. It’s highly sought after. It’s very competitive, but they realized that it’s not just H-1B visas, it’s the whole United States Immigration System. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Reality Reload team initially designed the game based on their own experiences as Chinese immigrants in Silicon Valley. They conducted dozens of interviews with other Chinese immigrants for storylines in the game. But the team quickly realized that this experience is more universal than they first believed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Allison Yang: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s kind of funny because there is internal tensions between people of different origin who are competing for the same visa. But when we were talking to them, we realized it’s the same rat race, and you’re competing with each other not because the other party is evil or better, it’s because you have to. And then everyone’s, or every context, country of origin have their own dilemma. Like when we talk to Latino people from Bolivia…here it’s already very hard to find a job, but people at home find it very difficult to believe they couldn’t find money in the States. They have to mitigate through that. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I talked to my physician who is Indian, and she said their problem is even if they get a visa, there are too many Indian visa holders, they have to wait, I’m sure this number is not right, but she said 100 years to get a green card. So it’s like different versions of a game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">H1B.Life revolves around choices and rules, which the player may or may not know about until they break one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Allison Yang: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the rules are changing every day. The player usually the one who has the least power or say, but they are the one we have to play through. So that tension is something we want to focus on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Allison did admit that early versions of the game were maybe too realistic. She told Azul that when they ran play tests, some people, like Donduk, found it a bit traumatic because they’ve dealt with this in real life. Donduk thought the game was triggering and not playful enough for a typical video game. Here’s Azul again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But he did think that it could have an application in like corporate diversity trainings. You could imagine like being at Google and a lot of your coworkers are H1B sponsors, being like, wow, I didn’t know that you had to go through that to get here, you know? And then that’s so different from how a United States citizen would get here. So that’s like, one potential application. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">H1B.Life is still a prototype. The Reality Reload team is still interviewing other immigrants to weave their experiences into the story. And they plan to add more fantasy and play to the game before it launches. Azul mentioned one mini game in the works, which involves juggling. Your hands are full with a social life, maintaining grades, and looking for a job that’ll sponsor you, all while checking emails from your immigration lawyer. This is core to the game, managing the tension between competing priorities. It prompts players to consider what they want more: to pursue their dreams, or to fit the mold of an ideal immigrant in order to stay in the country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Allison Yang: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the beginning we thought we were going to do a simple visa simulation game and now we realize it’s more about how people figure out what kind of life they want, where they want it to be. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which is also a sentiment that almost all employment-based visa holders have to consider. Except, unlike in the game, there’s no decision tree guiding their path. They have to make these choices for themselves. What does life look like when it’s not dictated by a precarious visa status? Let’s open another new tab: the post-visa midlife crisis. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For Donduk Dovdon, he came here as a student and he was pursuing a master’s degree. And now he needs to decide where he’s going to work, not based on what he wants to do, but based on who will sponsor him for an H-1B visa. After you get an H1B Visa, then you’re on a six-year timeline where you have to hit certain benchmarks in order to get a green card. After 10 years of uncertain visa status…once he got his U.S. citizenship, he basically had like a midlife crisis. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donduk Dovdon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because before, when I was on H1B, the only thing I had, my goal was to survive and be in this country. So I do whatever it takes to get a job that sponsors me for H-1B. And I do whatever it takes make my boss happy. But when I eventually got a green card, I finally had the privilege to think like an American, like, oh, what do I actually want to do with my life? I think now I’m still figuring out like what do I actually want to do? Now I’m like a 21 years old American, just graduated from college. I have all the opportunities finally opened up for me and I remember when I became citizen and I decided to quit PhD that was the hardest time in my life because like I’m like now finally I can move to anywhere in the States. I can be a bartender in Miami, but do I really want to be? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Donduk Dovdon: \u003c/b>I don’t know. Like I spent two months wondering where should I go next. And I know some other also H-1B workers, they were like of the best coders as a company or program manager or whatever. And then when they got a green card, some guys, I know one guy, he quit and he moved to Midwest and he opened a bakery because that’s what he actually is passionate about. And I think it’s just, it’s like, finally as immigrants, like when we got our green card of citizenship, we finally have the privilege to ponder what Americans did probably around 18 years old, or early 20s, like what do you actually want to achieve? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do I really want to do with my life? It’s a conundrum that American citizens can ponder at any age, but most consider it when they’re teenagers or fresh out of college. Maybe a couple years into your career, you realize that it’s not for you and you can pivot. But if your legal status in this country hinges on being able to do one highly specialized job, you don’t get to pivot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Your whole reason for being in the country is holding these special degrees, this special job and at the end of the day, that’s not all anyone is. Nobody is just an H-1B visa holder. Like, they’re complex people with multitudes of desires and I think feeling the weight of that lift can be unsettling for people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Donduk, for one, questioned whether this pressure is worth it for everyone. He told Azul that he was glad to stay in the United States, which, despite everything, is a safer and more free place for him as an openly gay, ethnically Mongolian person. But, if he knew that he could live in China without fear of persecution… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donduk Dovdon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the U.S. is getting harder and harder to stay here for immigrants. Like, you have to evaluate, what do you value more. If you can live a comfortable life in your back home country and you value your family connections, do you really want to spend 10, 15 years here just working like a dog to get a green card here? And also we heard many other stories like some immigrants, eventually they moved to Singapore or Canada and they found happiness there. Or even some move to Africa. It’s not like U.S. is the only place you can be happy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fewer international students are interested in studying in the U.S. Last year, international enrollment in American universities dropped 17%. Both Texas and Florida have banned H-1B hiring at public universities. Many scientists have raised concerns that the U.S. will lose its competitive edge in research between DOGE enforced funding cuts and H- 1B hiring freezes. But, as for working in the U.S., outside of academia? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">U.S. Citizen and Immigration Services said that they did hit their cap this year. So obviously there is still a demand for H-1B visas, but the Trump administration has made it a lot harder to get an H-1B visa. A lot of the Reality Reload team are Chinese immigrants and coming here, they’ve had the same experiences as the people they interviewed for these stories. I think it is very personal and part of why they wanted to give a voice to this experience because it is so pervasive in, you know, especially in like, the Bay area or other places where there’s a high need for specialized immigrant labor. This is really a huge thing and I think it’s not something that a lot of American citizens are aware of. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you think the game says about the intersection of technology and very bureaucratic systems like the immigration process? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Immigrants feel the whiplash of American government policies from like, Democrat to Republican, maybe more than most groups here in the country, and how it can upend their lives. And so I think this is a way for immigrants to tell their experiences and for them to feel seen and maybe to inject a little bit of critique into real life. Sometimes, like the experience can feel so arbitrary or so gamified. So maybe a game is the best way to understand and work towards making these processes better, or at least like, explain them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have the privilege of being a natural-born U.S. Citizen. Both of my parents immigrated here when they were young, and I’ve never had to navigate the complexities of the immigration system myself. Many of my close family members have dealt with that, but I admit that even as a journalist, I struggle to differentiate between types of visas and what you can do with them: H-1B, OPT, EB-3, O-1, L-1B, K-1? It’s a dialect that’s unintelligible to a lot of natural born citizens. There’s a whole other world of paperwork and red tape that most Americans never have to think about. But that doesn’t mean it’s unimportant. So how do you get through the doom scrolling and get American citizens to understand the real life impact of these shifting immigration policies?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Like Allison pointed out, people who aren’t inclined to spend 20 minutes reading about visa changes, may be more convinced to spend 20 minutes in a game, trying to avoid the wrath of the orange god. Through surreal slot machines, fickle deities, and some skill juggling, games like H1B.Life can open players up to an unseen reality that exists right in front of them, one that might affect their friends, their coworkers, and their neighbors every day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Special thanks to Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman for sharing this story along with the interview recordings you heard today. You can find a link to Azul’s story and more about H-1B.Life and the immigrant experience in our show notes. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad, Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Life on an H-1B visa — a visa that lets U.S. companies hire foreign-born workers for specialized jobs — is difficult, unpredictable, and has gotten even harder under the Trump administration. A new gaming studio, Reality Reload, is trying to capture that experience in a mobile game. It’s called H1B.Life, and it simulates the difficult choices, competing priorities, and personal sacrifices visa holders face — complete with chaotic design elements, like all-powerful “gods” who control your fate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED reporter Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman joins Morgan to break down the game’s surprising design choices, the mission behind it, and the stories he heard from people navigating the H1-B process. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2401184331\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/adahlstromeckman\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12076756/what-does-it-take-to-get-a-h-1b-visa-this-video-game-shows-just-how-complicated-it-is\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What Does It Take to Get a H-1B Visa? This Video Game Shows Just How Complicated It Is \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/meta-google-amazon-microsoft-h-1b-visa-applications-decline-2026-4\">Meta, Google, and Amazon slash H-1B petitions after Trump’s visa crackdown\u003c/a> — Geoff Weiss, Melia Russell, Andy Kiersz, and Alex Nicoll, \u003ci>Business Insider \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.insidehighered.com/news/government/state-policy/2026/01/29/faculty-warn-against-state-bans-h-1b-visas\">Faculty Warn Against State Bans on H-1B Visas\u003c/a> — Jessica Blake, \u003ci>\u003ci>Inside Higher Ed \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.the-scientist.com/h-1b-visa-restrictions-will-hurt-america-s-research-potential-experts-say-74267\">H-1B Visa Restrictions Will Hurt America’s Research Potential, Experts Say\u003c/a> — Shelby Bradford, PhD, \u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>The Scientist \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/trump-immigration-visa-secrutiny-tech/\">US Tech Visa Applications Are Being Put Through the Wringer \u003c/a>— Lauren Goode, \u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Wired \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/made-in-china-a-new-game-turns-the-h-1b-visa-system-into-a-surreal-simulation/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A New Game Turns the H-1B Visa System Into a Surreal Simulation \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Zeyi Yang, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wired \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, it’s Morgan. Be honest with me, how many tabs do you have open? Feeling a little overwhelmed by closing them? Well, we have an episode for you. If you like our deep dives and wanna hear more, please rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show and tell your friends about us too. Okay, let’s get to the episode. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Quick note: in this episode we use the term “immigrant” in a broad sense to refer to people living and working in the U.S. on H-1B visas. In legal terms the H1-B is a nonimmigrant temporary visa, though many visa holders hope to stay in the U.S. long term. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every March, a corner of the Chinese social media app Red Note gets flooded with posts about Chick-fil-A. The users go all out, buying Chick-fil-A keychains, changing their profile pictures to the red and white chicken logo, and of course, treating themselves to a hearty meal of a chicken sandwich and waffle fries. You’ll often see the same emojis in each post: prayer hands, a chicken, and an American flag. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these users are applying for the H-1B visa, a visa for highly skilled immigrants sponsored by an employer. Many come to Silicon Valley to work in tech. Hundreds of thousands of hopefuls apply every year, but only 85,000 applicants are selected. So, what does this have to do with fried chicken? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It turns out that there’s a tradition amongst Chinese H-1B applicants here in the United States that they believe that eating a lot of Chick-fil-A and just generally associating with Chick-fil-A brings you luck and will increase your chances of getting selected in the H-1B lottery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman is a reporter at KQED. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And apparently, if you go to a Chick-fil-A here in the Bay Area around March, you’re likely to see a lot of Chinese immigrants who potentially could be H-1B applicants eating there. And it’s not really clear where this started, but it’s definitely a thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Azul said that this trend, the annual Chick-fil-A frenzy on social media, is part of a much bigger story. To even apply for an H-1B visa, you need an employer to sponsor you, which means that you need to have a job offer. It doesn’t guarantee a visa, just that you can enter the lottery. The process for getting an H-1B Visa has been changing, and a system that was already difficult has become even harder for applicants. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is true that with the Trump administration, there has been a lot of changes specifically to this year’s H-1B visa process. The first is that there’s now a $100,000 fee if a company wants to sponsor somebody who isn’t currently living in the country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In wake of the changes and very steep application fee, some universities and companies implemented a hiring freeze for H-1B applicants. And the ones that are still hiring are sponsoring far fewer visas than in previous cycles. The updated application system isn’t totally random anymore. Higher paid applicants have a better chance of being picked now. But for the most part, the application process feels like a game of luck. At the end of the day, it’s still a lottery. Which is why good luck traditions, like getting Chick-fil-A during the registration window, have become baked into the modern mythology of the American immigrant experience. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It can all feel like a game, one in which the rules seem arbitrary and unpredictable. So when Azul heard about a studio turning that experience into a playable app, it made perfect sense. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">H1B.Life is a game that tries to simulate the experience of an immigrant who’s trying to get H1-B visa status. And it’s a pretty early prototype now. Basically, it’s sort of like a text-based decision tree on your smartphone. And I played a demo of it, and it was actually kind of interesting. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So one of the opening scenes of the game says, during high school, you spent hours and hours on your laptop binging Gilmore Girls on shady, unauthorized streaming websites. Everything in your drowsy new town reminds you of the show. If it wasn’t for Lorelai and Rory, you might have never decided to… and then there’s like two decisions, and one is study journalism or come to New England. And I was like, wow, that’s really oddly specific. And it turns out that H1B.Life is based on real-life interviews from H1-B applicants, specifically Chinese immigrants living in Silicon Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re diving into H1B.Life today, the arduous application process, how capricious policy changes impact the trajectory of an immigrant’s entire life, and the cost of chasing a dream, all wrapped up in a mobile game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Before we talk about the game itself, let’s get into the reality that inspired it. And as always, we’re starting by opening a new tab: Life on an H-1B Visa. Last month, the annual Game Developers Conference took over San Francisco. The Asian Art Museum was hosting a showcase for a game that involved chance, timing, and bureaucracy to, “determine who stays and who is deported.” The game was H1B.Life. Azul had heard about the game and decided to check it out. At the event, he talked to a few people about their own experiences with the immigration system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The first person I talked to, his name was Donduk Dovdon, and he’s an ethnically Mongolian, Chinese national who now is a U.S. Citizen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donduk Dovdon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I came to States 12 years ago for my master’s degree in Washington, D.C. And eventually I got H-1B, and then later I got green card. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Donduk said the process demands a lot of sacrifice and that it can be hard to ever feel secure about the future. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He told me it is a very hard and arduous process to get H-1B status. And then even once you have H-1B status, you’re still not secure. You have to work towards getting a green card and then citizenship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donduk Dovdon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I didn’t see my parents for 10 years. I didn’t see any of my relatives for 10 years. So I think that’s still very emotional for me to say. Like, I eventually went back, I think, two years ago when I became citizen. It was so emotional. And I feel… I miss them, they miss me, a huge chapter of our lives…ten years, like many Americans, it’s just unimaginable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Donduk’s 10-year gap without seeing his family may be on the extreme end. H-1B visa holders are technically allowed to travel internationally and re-enter the country, as long as their visa stamp is still valid. But he’s not alone. The decision to stay in the U.S. is often driven by fear of not being allowed back in. Over the last year, given the heightened scrutiny of visa holders and the Trump administration’s immigration crackdown, some legal experts, universities, and even tech companies who employ visa holders have cautioned against international travel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Concerns about travel aside, taking time off to visit family abroad often depends on your employer’s time off policy. H-1B visas hinge on employment. Changing jobs involves a new sponsor and another mountain of paperwork. Some H- 1B visa holders have spoken out about feeling trapped abusive work environments because of their visa status. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donduk Dovdon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was on H-1B, I met various shady employers who technically did not pay me, which was illegal. And it was like, if you dare to report me, you will get your H-1B revoked. So eventually, I was lucky enough and I left that organization, but I heard other people, in order just to get one H-1B, worked for three years free. And after work, they work at a restaurant or bubble tea store illegally for three years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Getting picked in the visa lottery doesn’t guarantee long-term stability either. H-1B visas have a 6-year cap and visa holders have to spend a full year outside of the U.S. before they can reapply. Donduk mentioned one of his friends, who’s also Chinese Mongolian. He recently had to say goodbye to her. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donduk Dovdon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She self-deported herself three or four days ago. We were at the airport. She was on H-1B for five years, but no companies was willing to sponsor her green card. She spent 14 years in the States. She even bought a house. And then she sold the house, sold the car, and moved back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Visa status can be all consuming. At the showcase, Azul spoke with another attendee who’s currently on a different work-based visa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He said that whenever he meets up with other visa holders, the number one thing that they ask each other is ‘what visa are you on? ‘ because it has such a powerful determining factor over what you do, who you date, where you live, where you work. You have to keep your employer happy and they have to continue to sponsor you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>You might need to take a job that takes you traveling out of the country, but with the Trump administration, you know, maybe it’s hard for you to get back into the country based on your country of origin. So I think people are constantly taking risks and living under uncertainty, you know, from one presidential administration to the next. They’re not sure how these rules surrounding H-1B status are going to change. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In his reporting, Azul talked to an immigration lawyer based in Silicon Valley, Sophie Alcorn. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The game metaphor made sense to her that the H-1B process is sort of like a game. She said that her two young sons invite her to play video games when she’s home and she says… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sophie Alcorn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You guys, I’m already playing one of the hardest video games. I don’t need to play another game because the immigration system is so complicated as it is. There’s randomness, there’s luck, there’s skill, there is strategy. There’s trying to go around and collect like, badges and items to upskill to be able to get to the next level just like in a game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In games, players are the most affected by the rules, but they also have the least control over them. Right? Players are beholden to the rules but the people that make the rules are not playing the same game. I mean, you could say that we’re now playing on difficulty level hard with the Trump administration. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s talk about the game itself, H1B life. Donduk, the guy who just got his American citizenship, actually thought the prototype he played was too realistic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He said that the gameplay was a little triggering for him, it was too real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re going to get into that after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, more about the game after the break. Stick with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Welcome back. We’re getting into this game, H1B.Life. Who is it for? How does it work? And can it really help make sense of the immigration process? Let’s open a new tab: How to play the H1-B Visa game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>The immigration system, at times, can seem like a black box to applicants, lawyers, and maybe most of all, to natural born American citizens who’ve never needed to think about this. The seemingly arbitrary rules that can change at the whims of an unseen entity, the gravity of every single decision, the pressure to succeed as the perfect model immigrant, that is the experience that developers are trying to capture in H1B.Life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from H1B.Life Trailer] America the big and beautiful country, but you need a visa. Be talented, big brain, build chips, then you might get an H-1B visa .\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a trailer for H1B.Life, which is still a very long way from being playable. The Kickstarter hasn’t even launched yet, but Azul got to try a demo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s basically like this text-based decision tree. The top half of the screen is like a text prompt and the bottom half is like, a series of choices. And then as you play through the game, you select different choices. There are these like four core attributes that you need to maintain. It’s intelligence, wealth, social support, and burnout rate, right? So this kind of like simulating. The things that it takes to be a person going through the H-1B visa process. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from H1B.Life Trailer] You make smart choices to get that visa and stay. What separates winning from losing is how you react when fate happens. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you play, you’re presented with these different choices, like you’re done with your study abroad program and you go back home to Shanghai and you want to pursue journalism. But maybe you can get a job in this field and get an H-1B visa, so you decide to put off your dream and pursue something else. And as you do that, your core attributes sort of change. And so you’re having to sort of weigh those choices. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can spend social capital, instead of going to, you know, your friend’s birthday party, you stay late at work because, you know, you’re trying to get sponsored, right? So your social support goes down, but you know your intelligence goes up, right? Like, that’s kind of the balancing act. Then what’s promised in subsequent versions of the game is that if those core attributes run out, it triggers a sort of like slot machine feature where different gods decide players fates, and that’s sort of supposed to describe this random nature of the H-1B visa process. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from H1B.Life Trailer] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And don’t forget the immigration gods: code god, free god, fried chicken god, even orange god.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you tell us more about these different gods in the game? I know there’s one called the orange god. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the orange god is the one that caught my eye. The orange god bears a very strong resemblance to Donald Trump. And the orange god claims to control everything and has already changed the policy 500 times before you finish reading the sentence. That’s what the description of the orange is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Allison Yang: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s the newest God in this universe. He’s very powerful. He can destroy your life any minute he wants, and he usually do. So you have to be very careful of him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Alison Yang, the founder of the game studio, Reality Reload. She told Azul about the other gods in the game. So there’s the code god, who looks like a cyborg and is obsessed with tech and optimization. The free god resembles the Statue of Liberty and is supposed to represent the American dream of a free society. And the fried chicken god? A nod to the annual Chick-fil-A tradition. And that god…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…According to the game description, keeps you surviving through the power of fast food grease. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter] Reality Reload is a game studio made up of immigrants, developers, designers, and journalists. The founder, Allison, has a background in journalism. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Allison Yang: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love journalism, but over the years, as an editor and a reporter, I realized less and less people are reading long form, but there’s so much stories and information we want to pass on. I had the luck to step into the game industry for 7-8 years now, and I realized it’s the opposite. Like, people spend a massive amount of time in a the game. They complained one of my games to be too short, play is two hours. At the same time, they would complain that one of my articles is too long. So I thought, what if I turn it around, like a trojan horse. Like we wrap the news or information into a game and people doesn’t have to know that. They’re just playing something fun and they’re exposed to information anyway. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, as Allison told Azul, the point of H1B.Life is to educate people about the complexities of the immigration system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think they started with the H-1B visa because it’s like this caricature of the visa system. It’s highly sought after. It’s very competitive, but they realized that it’s not just H-1B visas, it’s the whole United States Immigration System. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Reality Reload team initially designed the game based on their own experiences as Chinese immigrants in Silicon Valley. They conducted dozens of interviews with other Chinese immigrants for storylines in the game. But the team quickly realized that this experience is more universal than they first believed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Allison Yang: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s kind of funny because there is internal tensions between people of different origin who are competing for the same visa. But when we were talking to them, we realized it’s the same rat race, and you’re competing with each other not because the other party is evil or better, it’s because you have to. And then everyone’s, or every context, country of origin have their own dilemma. Like when we talk to Latino people from Bolivia…here it’s already very hard to find a job, but people at home find it very difficult to believe they couldn’t find money in the States. They have to mitigate through that. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I talked to my physician who is Indian, and she said their problem is even if they get a visa, there are too many Indian visa holders, they have to wait, I’m sure this number is not right, but she said 100 years to get a green card. So it’s like different versions of a game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">H1B.Life revolves around choices and rules, which the player may or may not know about until they break one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Allison Yang: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the rules are changing every day. The player usually the one who has the least power or say, but they are the one we have to play through. So that tension is something we want to focus on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Allison did admit that early versions of the game were maybe too realistic. She told Azul that when they ran play tests, some people, like Donduk, found it a bit traumatic because they’ve dealt with this in real life. Donduk thought the game was triggering and not playful enough for a typical video game. Here’s Azul again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But he did think that it could have an application in like corporate diversity trainings. You could imagine like being at Google and a lot of your coworkers are H1B sponsors, being like, wow, I didn’t know that you had to go through that to get here, you know? And then that’s so different from how a United States citizen would get here. So that’s like, one potential application. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">H1B.Life is still a prototype. The Reality Reload team is still interviewing other immigrants to weave their experiences into the story. And they plan to add more fantasy and play to the game before it launches. Azul mentioned one mini game in the works, which involves juggling. Your hands are full with a social life, maintaining grades, and looking for a job that’ll sponsor you, all while checking emails from your immigration lawyer. This is core to the game, managing the tension between competing priorities. It prompts players to consider what they want more: to pursue their dreams, or to fit the mold of an ideal immigrant in order to stay in the country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Allison Yang: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the beginning we thought we were going to do a simple visa simulation game and now we realize it’s more about how people figure out what kind of life they want, where they want it to be. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which is also a sentiment that almost all employment-based visa holders have to consider. Except, unlike in the game, there’s no decision tree guiding their path. They have to make these choices for themselves. What does life look like when it’s not dictated by a precarious visa status? Let’s open another new tab: the post-visa midlife crisis. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For Donduk Dovdon, he came here as a student and he was pursuing a master’s degree. And now he needs to decide where he’s going to work, not based on what he wants to do, but based on who will sponsor him for an H-1B visa. After you get an H1B Visa, then you’re on a six-year timeline where you have to hit certain benchmarks in order to get a green card. After 10 years of uncertain visa status…once he got his U.S. citizenship, he basically had like a midlife crisis. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donduk Dovdon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because before, when I was on H1B, the only thing I had, my goal was to survive and be in this country. So I do whatever it takes to get a job that sponsors me for H-1B. And I do whatever it takes make my boss happy. But when I eventually got a green card, I finally had the privilege to think like an American, like, oh, what do I actually want to do with my life? I think now I’m still figuring out like what do I actually want to do? Now I’m like a 21 years old American, just graduated from college. I have all the opportunities finally opened up for me and I remember when I became citizen and I decided to quit PhD that was the hardest time in my life because like I’m like now finally I can move to anywhere in the States. I can be a bartender in Miami, but do I really want to be? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Donduk Dovdon: \u003c/b>I don’t know. Like I spent two months wondering where should I go next. And I know some other also H-1B workers, they were like of the best coders as a company or program manager or whatever. And then when they got a green card, some guys, I know one guy, he quit and he moved to Midwest and he opened a bakery because that’s what he actually is passionate about. And I think it’s just, it’s like, finally as immigrants, like when we got our green card of citizenship, we finally have the privilege to ponder what Americans did probably around 18 years old, or early 20s, like what do you actually want to achieve? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do I really want to do with my life? It’s a conundrum that American citizens can ponder at any age, but most consider it when they’re teenagers or fresh out of college. Maybe a couple years into your career, you realize that it’s not for you and you can pivot. But if your legal status in this country hinges on being able to do one highly specialized job, you don’t get to pivot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Your whole reason for being in the country is holding these special degrees, this special job and at the end of the day, that’s not all anyone is. Nobody is just an H-1B visa holder. Like, they’re complex people with multitudes of desires and I think feeling the weight of that lift can be unsettling for people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Donduk, for one, questioned whether this pressure is worth it for everyone. He told Azul that he was glad to stay in the United States, which, despite everything, is a safer and more free place for him as an openly gay, ethnically Mongolian person. But, if he knew that he could live in China without fear of persecution… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donduk Dovdon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the U.S. is getting harder and harder to stay here for immigrants. Like, you have to evaluate, what do you value more. If you can live a comfortable life in your back home country and you value your family connections, do you really want to spend 10, 15 years here just working like a dog to get a green card here? And also we heard many other stories like some immigrants, eventually they moved to Singapore or Canada and they found happiness there. Or even some move to Africa. It’s not like U.S. is the only place you can be happy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fewer international students are interested in studying in the U.S. Last year, international enrollment in American universities dropped 17%. Both Texas and Florida have banned H-1B hiring at public universities. Many scientists have raised concerns that the U.S. will lose its competitive edge in research between DOGE enforced funding cuts and H- 1B hiring freezes. But, as for working in the U.S., outside of academia? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">U.S. Citizen and Immigration Services said that they did hit their cap this year. So obviously there is still a demand for H-1B visas, but the Trump administration has made it a lot harder to get an H-1B visa. A lot of the Reality Reload team are Chinese immigrants and coming here, they’ve had the same experiences as the people they interviewed for these stories. I think it is very personal and part of why they wanted to give a voice to this experience because it is so pervasive in, you know, especially in like, the Bay area or other places where there’s a high need for specialized immigrant labor. This is really a huge thing and I think it’s not something that a lot of American citizens are aware of. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you think the game says about the intersection of technology and very bureaucratic systems like the immigration process? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Immigrants feel the whiplash of American government policies from like, Democrat to Republican, maybe more than most groups here in the country, and how it can upend their lives. And so I think this is a way for immigrants to tell their experiences and for them to feel seen and maybe to inject a little bit of critique into real life. Sometimes, like the experience can feel so arbitrary or so gamified. So maybe a game is the best way to understand and work towards making these processes better, or at least like, explain them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have the privilege of being a natural-born U.S. Citizen. Both of my parents immigrated here when they were young, and I’ve never had to navigate the complexities of the immigration system myself. Many of my close family members have dealt with that, but I admit that even as a journalist, I struggle to differentiate between types of visas and what you can do with them: H-1B, OPT, EB-3, O-1, L-1B, K-1? It’s a dialect that’s unintelligible to a lot of natural born citizens. There’s a whole other world of paperwork and red tape that most Americans never have to think about. But that doesn’t mean it’s unimportant. So how do you get through the doom scrolling and get American citizens to understand the real life impact of these shifting immigration policies?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Like Allison pointed out, people who aren’t inclined to spend 20 minutes reading about visa changes, may be more convinced to spend 20 minutes in a game, trying to avoid the wrath of the orange god. Through surreal slot machines, fickle deities, and some skill juggling, games like H1B.Life can open players up to an unseen reality that exists right in front of them, one that might affect their friends, their coworkers, and their neighbors every day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Special thanks to Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman for sharing this story along with the interview recordings you heard today. You can find a link to Azul’s story and more about H-1B.Life and the immigrant experience in our show notes. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad, Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "save-or-scroll-looksmaxxing-ai-fruit-love-island-bts-arirang-and-meta-lawsuits",
"title": "Save or Scroll: Looksmaxxing, AI Fruit Love Island, BTS Arirang, and Meta Lawsuits",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a spring installment of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Save or Scroll\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Morgan teams up with culture journalist Steffi Cao to dig into the stories they can’t stop thinking about. From \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">looksmaxxing to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Fruit Love Island, BTS’ new album, and Meta losing a landmark series of lawsuits, they’ve got a lot to discuss. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Save or Scroll is our series where we team up with guests for a rapid-fire roundup of internet trends that are filling our feeds right now. At the end of each segment, they’ll decide: is the post just for the group chat, or should we save it for a future episode?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4630070510\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://stefficao.substack.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steffi Cao\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, culture journalist \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://stefficao.substack.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">More from Steffi Cao\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Substack\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.gq.com/story/inside-claviculars-thirsty-tour-of-new-york-city\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Inside Clavicular’s Thirsty Tour of New York City \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Kieran Press-Reynolds, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">GQ\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.thedailybeast.com/in-gen-z-gym-culture-steroids-are-often-a-gateway-drug-to-the-alt-right/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why Steroids Are Now Turning Young Men into Dangerous Incels\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Steffi Cao, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Daily Beast\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.fastcompany.com/91519147/fruit-love-island-tiktok-most-popular-ai-generated-series-now-facing-trouble-in-paradise\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Fruit Love Island’ is TikTok’s most popular AI-generated series. It’s now facing trouble in paradise \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Jude Cramer, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fast Company \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/theres-something-very-dark-about-a-lot-of-those-viral-ai-fruit-videos/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s Something Very Dark About a Lot of Those Viral AI Fruit Videos \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Kat Tenbarge, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wired \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.teenvogue.com/story/who-decides-if-bts-album-arirang-is-korean-enough-op-ed\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who Decides If BTS’s Album ‘Arirang’ is ‘Korean Enough’? \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Jiye Kim, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Teen Vogue \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://slate.com/culture/2026/03/bts-arirang-album-netflix-swim-comeback-concert-2026.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BTS’s Arirang comeback was supposed to be a triumph. What happened?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nadira Goffe, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slate \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://19thnews.org/2026/03/social-media-addiction-trial-meta-youtube/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Meta and YouTube ordered to pay $3 million to young woman in social media addiction trial\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jasmine Mithani, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The 19th\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-lede/what-the-verdict-against-meta-and-google-says-about-the-way-we-live-now\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What the Verdict Against Meta and Google Says About the Way We Live Now\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jeannie Suk Gersen, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New Yorker \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ype6c6DdHQY\">The Truth About the Social Media Addiction Trial\u003c/a> — Taylor Lorenz, \u003ci>Free Speech Friday \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey, it’s Morgan. We just celebrated the show’s first birthday. That’s right, Close All Tabs is a Pisces. Want to celebrate with us? It would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends about us too. Okay, let’s get to the episode.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey guys, welcome to Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Except today, we aren’t opening any tabs. Instead, we’re doing another Save or Scroll. We’ve done a few of these now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Occasionally, while scrolling, I come across a truly wild post, but it might not make sense to spend an entire episode on it. Maybe I do a little digging and it turns out that the lore behind it just isn’t compelling enough to justify a deep dive, but I’m still dying to talk about it. And this is the beauty of Save or Scroll, the game where a guest comes to the show and we trade stories from the internet that we’re dying to talk about. Today, we have the one and only Steffi Cao. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much for having me, Morgan. I’m so excited. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, Steffi, tell us about yourself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi everyone, I’m Steffi, I am a culture journalist and Slate’s newest dating advice columnist for Unhinged. You can find my writing everywhere from The Atlantic, to Rolling Stone, to The Guardian, to Slate now, so I’m very excited to share all my tabs and work in today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so let’s talk about the rules of Save or Scroll. Save, as in when you see a post on TikTok or Instagram or X and you bookmark it, add it to your save folders or if you’re me, drop it in notes app and hope that you’ll remember it’s there. Basically, you’re holding onto the story because you know you’ll want to dig into it more. And scroll, as you think about it and then move on. It disappears into the digital ether.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So Steffi and I have each brought some stories that we can’t stop thinking about, and we’re gonna go back and forth to decide if they’re worth a deep dive on the show. So if we decide to scroll, it means we’ve talked about it, we’re moving on. And if we save, it means that we might hold onto the idea for a future episode.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, Steffi, please tell us about looksmaxxing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over the past few years, looksmaxxing is the subculture of young men primarily who are seeking guidance from other men in terms of how to gamify their looks to become super, super hot. The essence of looksmaxxing is basically ‘the hotter I can be, the better my life will be around other men.’ And the pinnacle of these content creators currently is a man named Clavicular of collarbone fame.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He’s a 20-year-old white man who has a very soft elfin face and a Dorito-shaped body and has really been associated with a lot of, like, Nazi ideology, has been recently arrested for inciting a fight between two women, allegedly and also allegedly shooting an alligator in Florida. He was kicked out of Las Vegas, I believe, and has become this sort of lightning rod for this entire culture of all these men wanting to get hotter and be hotter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah and Clavicular first went viral for not only his extensive skin care and workout routine, but for also saying that he microdoses meth and would hit his face with a hammer to get a more, I guess, angular jawline. What a man. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What a guy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What a character. Clavicular is so fascinating to me because his political stances are indecipherable. He has gone on some more right-leaning podcasts, and when they try to get him to be kind of transphobic, he said… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clavicular in audio clip]\u003cbr>\nI did a podcast with Michael Knowles the other day and he’s sitting here saying like and getting all mad about transgenders and I’m like bro that’s one more person a mog you know what I mean so like I don’t get too I don’t get too upset when people go trans and all that shit. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s just another person to mog. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How would you describe mogging? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mogging, I think, is the essence of being hotter than somebody else. So if you’ve mogged them, it’s like you’ve shown them up in some way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of Clavicular on the Adam Friedland Show] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Clavicular: That’s the goal of the game, right, is to mog other people, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Adam: Tell the boomer cells about what that is. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Clavicular: So, mogging is essentially just, you know, outperforming them, looking better than them, yeah and just sort of dominating, right. It came from something called AMOG, which was alpha male of the group, then it was shortened to just mog, so that’s kind of like the term we use. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the language has become like a bigger than itself sort of phenomenon where, you know, maxxing and mogging have started from this internal community and then now becomes sort of like general ironic gobbledygook for everybody. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s so interesting too, because the whole looksmaxxing thing has become like the peak Manosphere content. All the allegedly straight boys are really into doing all this to impress other men. It doesn’t seem like they actually do this in any way to appeal to women. And like, I’ve seen a lot of like gay men point out, this is literally gay male culture, what they’re doing, the peacocking, trying to show each other up and like only seek validation from other men, which is from a gender perspective, I’m like, what’s going on here? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It feels like horseshoe theory a little bit. They are doing all of these performative things that come right back to a drag of what a straight man is. It’s like it’s heterosexual drag. Like you’re trying to, you know, build up your face a certain way, you’re trying to mog other straight men, like that’s drag, honey. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like that’s gender performance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">100% Yeah, I mean, self-improvement leans so well into fascist ideology because a lot of it is predicated on this idea that you can earn your way into something better, which is exactly what looksmaxxing is, right? You can gamify your looks. Like, If you’re not hot now, all you need to do is do all these steps and gain more points, more aura points, until you have achieved this thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Which is exactly why in Nazi Germany you see a lot of propaganda being espoused about the strongman. That was a huge beauty standard at that point in Hitler’s Germany, was specifically this idea of a man who is super jacked and is super like, is mogged, really, and I have no other word for it really. It’s just like they really..\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A mogged man has always been this cultural fascination and in many ways a mogged woman, obviously. Um, has been a huge part of, uh, fascist ideology for a long time. You know, think about all these essays about why Republican women all look the same and they have this specific look about them. And it has a lot to do with this culture of self-improvement and making all these alterations to yourself to try and earn your way or like bootstrap your way into beauty and therefore access and power and all of these things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Okay, well, looksmaxxing, the big thing of the year right now, do we save or do we scroll? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, I’m saving it because I think there’s going to be developments. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, yeah, there are going to be new words that have never been said before. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s going be crazy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But looks maxed as a trend, I think we’re saving. After the break, a new bombshell enters the villa. Unfortunately, she’s AI generated and also made of fruit. Steffi and I are going to explain all of the drama around AI Fruit Love Island. Stick around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have a story for you now. Are you familiar with AI Fruit Love Island? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, am I! Oh my god, I feel like it came out of nowhere and then it’s sudden, it’s like omnipresent now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, for the uninitiated, AI Fruit Love Island was this interactive AI-slop parody of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Love Island\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> with sexy anthropomorphized fruit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip of Audio from AI Fruit Love Island] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Host: Welcome Back to Fruit Love Island. Today we’ve got a steamy challenge and after over 370,000 viewer votes, our bombshells have officially hit the villa. All right ladies let’s get this started. You’ll be kissed one by each guy and after each kiss you rate it. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so that is one of the episodes of Fruit Love Island. What was happening in that clip? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, it’s basically just a real \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Love Island\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> challenge, but done with fruit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, they have human bodies, um, but their heads are fruit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These are all like, obviously done by AI. The colors are highly saturated. It’s super bright, super like in your face. And then a grape man wearing a Hawaiian shirt and, uh, board shorts, like comes up and kisses the fruit ladies blindfolded. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip of Audio from AI Fruit Love Island] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Host: Grapenzo, you’re up first. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Contestant: That was hot, an 8.5. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You see all these badly done reactions in the background of these AI fruit women laughing and sort of being like, ha ha ha, this is crazy. So it just is like a \u003cem>Love Island\u003c/em> episode, but with fruit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for context, this TikTok account kind of came out of nowhere, AICinema021, and they gained about 3.1 million followers in like a week and a half. And now there are so many copycat accounts. The characters include Limeyra, the lime, Bananito, the banana who has abs and is always shirtless, Strawberrina, the strawberry, Coconick, the sexy coconut. And yeah, it’s not good. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The animation and voices are all stilted. There’s zero consistency. It’s pure slop. So viewers gave storyline feedback via Google Form and voted for their faves in the comments. And this account was getting crazy numbers, like 20 million views per episode at its peak and just churning out new episodes every day. I feel like it used to be kind of embarrassing to enjoy this kind of content, but then you had Zara Larsson and Joe Jonas being like, ‘Oh my God, I can’t wait for the next episode.’ Like major celebrities. But yeah, what’s your like initial gut reaction here? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it makes sense why this thing is taken off, because even though young people online want to act like only boomers love watching AI slop, the fact is our brains are primed to watch AI slop. We have all these deep fried memes and internet humor is so self-referential, but it removes a lot of these barriers in our heads of consuming something like this that really feels as though, like, okay, maybe, um, what could be embarrassing previously could be ironically fun now. I love it because it’s fascinating to see how excited people get about it. But like, is the content good? No, it’s trash, but I don’t think it’s trying to be good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Well, have you been following the great AI Fruit Love Island crash out… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have not. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…that happened over the weekend? Okay. So this account literally gained millions and millions of followers, three million followers in like a week and a half, which is insane. Like there are human creators who grind for years to get a third of that. But, you know, this account was able to just churn out content so fast and people were invested. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So basically, people were criticizing the account for being AI slop and criticizing viewers for being slop consumers. And the creator did not respond well. In TikTok comments, they complained about how hard it was to make this content and basically implied that like viewers were ungrateful. A real hilarious irony where they were like, it’s really hard because I have to prompt so many times and the AI sometimes messes up and I have to redo it and then I have edit it together. And it sometimes takes me like three hours to make one of these videos. And it’s like, yeah, well… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Imagine how long it must take to film a real TV episode? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s so funny that they’re like, this is so hard, even like having to prompt a generator to be like, and now make Strawberrina kiss the kiwi man is like too much effort. So then their video started getting removed. The creator claimed that it was part of a mass reporting campaign and started crashing onto their story. So this was the first one…they were, I guess, sick of it, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were like, “This is it. I’m sick of all of you.” They were getting criticized for like wasting water basically and people were pointing out like, hey, this is like really sh*tty that you’re kind of encouraging this consumption. So they were posting like, “Was a good run, didn’t expect any of this, but here we are from being a nobody to being cancelled. I guess I’ll take it. People hate to see people win,”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s awesome! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…with screenshots from like their episodes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’t the funniest thing I’ve ever seen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“I’m so glad y’all got what you wanted. Saving the planet three gallons of water at a time, truly inspirational. It’s like, f*ck all y’all, you jealous motherf*ckers, save the planet, OMG, water, OMG. I love water, clean water, please clean water. What y’ all sound like.”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s hilarious. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Thanks for 3 million followers though. Wow, I guess some might like it.” Then they posted one final one, basically saying like, this series is over, this is it, with Bananito, a fan favorite, unfortunately, the sexy banana that is never wearing a shirt. Um, and basically they said, “All right, f*ck all you b*tches, no more Fruit Love Island. Since people are so obsessed with it, all my videos banned, I make no money. I guess I am being targeted because no other AI account is getting f*cked. Y’all heard it from Bananito himself. Bye.”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bye. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s just really funny because they also got mad that other like copycat AI accounts were like copying their theme, which is a real like, so many layers between like, being mad about the copycats and then being like suddenly like creative integrity matters basically. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then being mad at like the effort it took to make these videos. The layers of complete unawareness just go so deep. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter] It’s one of those things where I’m like, oh, of course, this is where we are. People are so fixated on this idea of it’s fine until it’s me because passive consumption is just so self-centric, you’re only thinking about yourself. So of course this person’s mad that other people are stealing their AI fruit slop content without contributing to the AI slop database that can then pull out more content. Okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like a content self-eating snake, you know? But I will say, there is one glimmer of hope, despite how many people were obsessed with this slop. I would say there’s an equal faction of people who are really into human-made content. And so this inspired several Fruit Love Island non-AI copycats,. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With real fruit? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…which I will show you now, which is really beautiful. I love that people are doing this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip of Audio from Fruit Love Island] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Host: Welcome to episode one of Fruit Love Island, that’s not AI. I’ve made sure to gather the juiciest of drama in the villa in the past day. Now let’s see what’s happened. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Contestant: I’m here to break hearts, not to fall in love. Hopefully these guys don’t get too attached. Or I don’t. I won’t though. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s basically a similar idea, but it’s not really animated so much as like, there are these photoshopped pictures of like people, human bodies with fruits for heads. It’s a human being that made this and it’s not as refined, but they did get voice actors on Discord to like volunteer their voices and voice all of this. And so I’m just like really encouraged by the fact that this has kind of blown up this non-AI Fruit Love Island. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s beautiful. I think we need to reject modernity and embrace tradition in a lot of ways, because we already had Annoying Orange. We need to bring back the original recipes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know. And like Annoying Orange,I hated that content. I didn’t dread it. But you know what? A human being made it.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nSteffi Cao: \u003c/b>A human-being made it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>So AI Fruit Love Island, do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m gonna scroll on it, but I defer to you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m going to scroll on it too. I think it had a good run. I don’t think we need more of it. I think the crash out was beautiful and hilarious and a real internet moment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Perfect irony. It’s truly, like, perfect. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tell us about this next story you brought. What’s going on with BTS’ new album? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of BTS music] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Swim swim, \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is how it all begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Swim, swim\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just wanna dive…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BTS was away in the military for four years, and the K-pop group, who was arguably one of the biggest acts in the industry and has been for many years, returned with an album called Arirang, and it was predominantly sung in English, and because of that, as well as the fact that it was a different sound from what they’ve previously put out in the past, it was, I think, personally sonically more mixed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of BTS music] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Watch this, watch this, \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Beat going hooligan. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We pop out, we actin’ a fool again \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It became very controversial. It didn’t also help that when they did their first live performance in Seoul after the fact, there were a lot of statistics reported about how many people actually attended. They shut down a very busy intersection in Seoul saying that 300,000 people were expected to show up. Korean officials, some of them said that as low as 42,000 showed up and there were adverse impacts from store owners who expected a lot of influx but didn’t get that. And so now there’s this huge debate happening about this album, what it means for K-pop in the industry and like how things have shifted, et cetera. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you think the fandom has aged out of, like, acting like fans? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>[Laughter] \u003c/em>I think that the industry has shifted a lot, and what a fan should act like has changed with it. Because I think in the past, the eternal struggle of a BTS ARMY was trying to convince people that K-pop was a serious art form, that it wasn’t just some silly thing that teen girls listened to, that it was corporate slop pop music, that there were a lot of uphill battles, I think, for a K-Pop fan.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I think now, over the past four years, you’ve seen a lot more Western embrace of K-pop as a serious art form, as a legitimate cultural export, and not like a niche subculture. So I think that with “K-Pop Demon Hunters”, you have Blackpink headlining Coachella, you had KATSEYE at Lollapalooza, you had all these bigger acts coming out of a Korean system that I think is legitimized in a different way. And so I think that BTS ARMY doesn’t have to convince anyone anymore that BTS is legit. It has shifted this fan identity of like, okay, well, now what? And now what happens?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right, you mentioned that like the entire album is sang in English or like all the lyrics are mostly in English, which is interesting because Arirang is a really culturally important folk song in Korea with a lot of history behind it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip of Arirang sung in Korean from Youtube user @Miss_Taex] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think people expected a little bit more of that cultural representation with this album. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think BTS has also throughout their career really emphasized their Korean-ness, especially because they tend to sample a lot of traditional Korean music, a lot of Korean culture comes into play into their performances. And so I think that it was disappointing for a lot fans to open up this album and hear Teddy Swims in the song. Right? They end on a country song, which is like, possibly the most American form of music that we associate in mainstream culture. We don’t associate country music with Korea. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, right. And it’s a hard thing to follow “K-Pop Demon Hunters.” Just like the way that that movie was such a cultural moment and how it introduced so many people to Korean folklore and Korean culture and Korean language. That was a movie that was in English, but a lot of the songs were in Korean. And a lot people who have never spoken Korean learned those songs. And so it’s interesting that BTS wouldn’t see that and like kind of seize the moment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, 100%. I think that it’s frustrating as a fan to feel like the whole reason that you fell so deeply in love with this group has suddenly shifted under your feet and that the intention of the group’s project didn’t align with where you thought they were going to go. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Okay, well, BTS’s new album, do we save or do we scroll? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think. I’m going to personally scroll on it, but I think that there’s a lot to talk about in terms of like Asian artistry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a lot to keep an eye on, but personally, don’t come for me, ARMY. I didn’t like the album. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Me either. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I’m gonna scroll on it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was just bored. I was bored. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m in ARMY. I’m in ARMY-da. And I got the tickets. Any ARMY that wants to come for me and I will see you at MetLife. I’ve got the tickets. And what now? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But you can be disappointed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’m disappointed in the album. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re allowed to be disappointed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m disappointed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you’re allowed to scroll. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I am allowed to scroll on it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, last story for today. The Meta lawsuits. Okay, so Meta faced two separate lawsuits: one in California over social media addiction and one in New Mexico for child safety. The one in California took place in LA and it centered around this 20 year-old woman who said that she became addicted to YouTube and Instagram as a child. And that that greatly affected her mental health.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So Snapchat and TikTok were also both defendants, but they settled before it went to court. And a jury in LA found Google and Meta both negligent because the design of their apps encourages infinite scrolling. And the companies didn’t warn users about the dangers of that. So the plaintiff’s lawyer said that both Meta and Google intentionally target kids and prioritize profit over safety. \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nThe jury concluded that Meta is liable for $4.2 million in damages, and Google is liable for $1.8 million. And then for the case in New Mexico, the state sued Meta over child safety issues. Former employees testified that underage users were shown sexualized content on Instagram and were exposed to predators. And during the court proceedings, they said that Meta’s decision to encrypt Facebook Messenger blocked access to evidence of predators grooming minors. And basically, this is the first time that New Mexico, as a state, was able to successfully sue Meta. So now Meta was ordered to pay $375 million.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So these lawsuits are being celebrated as huge wins for child safety and kind of taking down these evil tech companies. But I’m kind of skeptical of big companies like Meta and Google actually changing their practices. And whenever I hear like child safety social media lawsuit or like child safety and social media in the same sentence, I’m like, everyone wants kids to be safe. Everyone wants to protect the kids. No one wants to expose kids to predators or inappropriate content. But alarm bells are going off in my head where I’m, like, will they be using this to justify more surveillance and more censorship and more practices like age verification, which we’ve covered a lot on this show. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it makes sense that there’s a lot of cynicism around these child safety lawsuits because what we’ve seen over our careers is that every time there has been one of these landmark lawsuits, it’s like, what is it actually put into practice? People have been concerned about this topic for many, many years, but it feels like the people who are in Congress still miss the mark on the concept of social media as itself. We’ve seen endless clips of Congress people essentially asking Mark Zuckerberg for tech help during Senate hearings. Yeah. So it makes sense that this verdict, even though it’s being lauded as a huge case, I’m not convinced on it either. We’ve seen Meta pay up a lot in the past, and it hasn’t seemed to really shift the needle at all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s like, if anything, the practices don’t change. Kids aren’t necessarily safer. And everyone else is a little bit more surveilled and censored, like, with the current wave of age verification requirements, like, sweeping any internet platform whatsoever, where you have to put in your ID to continue using Spotify in some countries and I really distrust that. And, I do kind of worry that like any kind of trying to like ensure child safety on social media will just be used to justify more age verification laws. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, 100%. I think that the solution being trusting big tech to manage more of our data and requests that we give up more of privacy is like, it makes a lot of sense as people who’ve grown up online and we’ve seen this play before. It does, I think, breed more of a culture of surveillance.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think also the problem with this lawsuit is that like, it’s not a silver bullet. Like this is a multi-pronged problem where it’s like a part of it is having adults be smarter about their tech use and teaching their kids to critically analyze the content they’re consuming day in and day out. It’s a lot on the education system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s on providing structural support for young kids to have more time offline to build all these social skills that when you are isolated and just on your feed even though it can be very fun and exciting to be on Tumblr as a 16-year-old, freewheeling it online, you still need an infrastructure behind you to teach you all these skills that you don’t really get when you are online.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So it’s like a multi-pronged problem. It really is on every adult, regardless of where you stand, if you have kids or not, to try and train yourself to be better about your own skillset, because they’re kids, they’re just imitating whatever resource is there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right, and it’s like, Taylor Lorenz on her Free Speech Friday series pointed out that a lot of kids do still, you still need to let them have agency online in some capacity and just like, you know, a lot kids do rely on these online resources to access information about sex ed or find queer community when they don’t have that in real life and to potentially silo them further and take that away could actually endanger kids. Okay, the child safety lawsuits with Meta and Google, do we save or do we scroll? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel like we’re going to have to save it because this is going to continue. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, It’s an evergreen save. This is just collecting more and more tabs every day. Thank you so much for joining us, Steffi. Where can people follow your work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much for having me, Morgan. You can check me out on Instagram at Steffi Cao, S-T-E-F-F-I-C-A-O, and my sub-stack, It’s Steffi. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Perfect, thanks so much. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and it’s reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. Our team includes producer, Maya Cueva. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts. Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor in chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you like these deep dives? Are you closing your tabs? Then don’t forget to rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Maybe drop a comment too. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a spring installment of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Save or Scroll\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Morgan teams up with culture journalist Steffi Cao to dig into the stories they can’t stop thinking about. From \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">looksmaxxing to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Fruit Love Island, BTS’ new album, and Meta losing a landmark series of lawsuits, they’ve got a lot to discuss. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Save or Scroll is our series where we team up with guests for a rapid-fire roundup of internet trends that are filling our feeds right now. At the end of each segment, they’ll decide: is the post just for the group chat, or should we save it for a future episode?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4630070510\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://stefficao.substack.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steffi Cao\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, culture journalist \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://stefficao.substack.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">More from Steffi Cao\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Substack\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.gq.com/story/inside-claviculars-thirsty-tour-of-new-york-city\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Inside Clavicular’s Thirsty Tour of New York City \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Kieran Press-Reynolds, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">GQ\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.thedailybeast.com/in-gen-z-gym-culture-steroids-are-often-a-gateway-drug-to-the-alt-right/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why Steroids Are Now Turning Young Men into Dangerous Incels\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Steffi Cao, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Daily Beast\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.fastcompany.com/91519147/fruit-love-island-tiktok-most-popular-ai-generated-series-now-facing-trouble-in-paradise\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Fruit Love Island’ is TikTok’s most popular AI-generated series. It’s now facing trouble in paradise \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Jude Cramer, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fast Company \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/theres-something-very-dark-about-a-lot-of-those-viral-ai-fruit-videos/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s Something Very Dark About a Lot of Those Viral AI Fruit Videos \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Kat Tenbarge, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wired \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.teenvogue.com/story/who-decides-if-bts-album-arirang-is-korean-enough-op-ed\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who Decides If BTS’s Album ‘Arirang’ is ‘Korean Enough’? \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Jiye Kim, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Teen Vogue \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://slate.com/culture/2026/03/bts-arirang-album-netflix-swim-comeback-concert-2026.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BTS’s Arirang comeback was supposed to be a triumph. What happened?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nadira Goffe, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slate \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://19thnews.org/2026/03/social-media-addiction-trial-meta-youtube/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Meta and YouTube ordered to pay $3 million to young woman in social media addiction trial\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jasmine Mithani, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The 19th\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-lede/what-the-verdict-against-meta-and-google-says-about-the-way-we-live-now\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What the Verdict Against Meta and Google Says About the Way We Live Now\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jeannie Suk Gersen, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New Yorker \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ype6c6DdHQY\">The Truth About the Social Media Addiction Trial\u003c/a> — Taylor Lorenz, \u003ci>Free Speech Friday \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey, it’s Morgan. We just celebrated the show’s first birthday. That’s right, Close All Tabs is a Pisces. Want to celebrate with us? It would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends about us too. Okay, let’s get to the episode.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey guys, welcome to Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Except today, we aren’t opening any tabs. Instead, we’re doing another Save or Scroll. We’ve done a few of these now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Occasionally, while scrolling, I come across a truly wild post, but it might not make sense to spend an entire episode on it. Maybe I do a little digging and it turns out that the lore behind it just isn’t compelling enough to justify a deep dive, but I’m still dying to talk about it. And this is the beauty of Save or Scroll, the game where a guest comes to the show and we trade stories from the internet that we’re dying to talk about. Today, we have the one and only Steffi Cao. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much for having me, Morgan. I’m so excited. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, Steffi, tell us about yourself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi everyone, I’m Steffi, I am a culture journalist and Slate’s newest dating advice columnist for Unhinged. You can find my writing everywhere from The Atlantic, to Rolling Stone, to The Guardian, to Slate now, so I’m very excited to share all my tabs and work in today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so let’s talk about the rules of Save or Scroll. Save, as in when you see a post on TikTok or Instagram or X and you bookmark it, add it to your save folders or if you’re me, drop it in notes app and hope that you’ll remember it’s there. Basically, you’re holding onto the story because you know you’ll want to dig into it more. And scroll, as you think about it and then move on. It disappears into the digital ether.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So Steffi and I have each brought some stories that we can’t stop thinking about, and we’re gonna go back and forth to decide if they’re worth a deep dive on the show. So if we decide to scroll, it means we’ve talked about it, we’re moving on. And if we save, it means that we might hold onto the idea for a future episode.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, Steffi, please tell us about looksmaxxing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over the past few years, looksmaxxing is the subculture of young men primarily who are seeking guidance from other men in terms of how to gamify their looks to become super, super hot. The essence of looksmaxxing is basically ‘the hotter I can be, the better my life will be around other men.’ And the pinnacle of these content creators currently is a man named Clavicular of collarbone fame.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He’s a 20-year-old white man who has a very soft elfin face and a Dorito-shaped body and has really been associated with a lot of, like, Nazi ideology, has been recently arrested for inciting a fight between two women, allegedly and also allegedly shooting an alligator in Florida. He was kicked out of Las Vegas, I believe, and has become this sort of lightning rod for this entire culture of all these men wanting to get hotter and be hotter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah and Clavicular first went viral for not only his extensive skin care and workout routine, but for also saying that he microdoses meth and would hit his face with a hammer to get a more, I guess, angular jawline. What a man. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What a guy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What a character. Clavicular is so fascinating to me because his political stances are indecipherable. He has gone on some more right-leaning podcasts, and when they try to get him to be kind of transphobic, he said… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clavicular in audio clip]\u003cbr>\nI did a podcast with Michael Knowles the other day and he’s sitting here saying like and getting all mad about transgenders and I’m like bro that’s one more person a mog you know what I mean so like I don’t get too I don’t get too upset when people go trans and all that shit. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s just another person to mog. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How would you describe mogging? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mogging, I think, is the essence of being hotter than somebody else. So if you’ve mogged them, it’s like you’ve shown them up in some way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of Clavicular on the Adam Friedland Show] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Clavicular: That’s the goal of the game, right, is to mog other people, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Adam: Tell the boomer cells about what that is. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Clavicular: So, mogging is essentially just, you know, outperforming them, looking better than them, yeah and just sort of dominating, right. It came from something called AMOG, which was alpha male of the group, then it was shortened to just mog, so that’s kind of like the term we use. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the language has become like a bigger than itself sort of phenomenon where, you know, maxxing and mogging have started from this internal community and then now becomes sort of like general ironic gobbledygook for everybody. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s so interesting too, because the whole looksmaxxing thing has become like the peak Manosphere content. All the allegedly straight boys are really into doing all this to impress other men. It doesn’t seem like they actually do this in any way to appeal to women. And like, I’ve seen a lot of like gay men point out, this is literally gay male culture, what they’re doing, the peacocking, trying to show each other up and like only seek validation from other men, which is from a gender perspective, I’m like, what’s going on here? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It feels like horseshoe theory a little bit. They are doing all of these performative things that come right back to a drag of what a straight man is. It’s like it’s heterosexual drag. Like you’re trying to, you know, build up your face a certain way, you’re trying to mog other straight men, like that’s drag, honey. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like that’s gender performance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">100% Yeah, I mean, self-improvement leans so well into fascist ideology because a lot of it is predicated on this idea that you can earn your way into something better, which is exactly what looksmaxxing is, right? You can gamify your looks. Like, If you’re not hot now, all you need to do is do all these steps and gain more points, more aura points, until you have achieved this thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Which is exactly why in Nazi Germany you see a lot of propaganda being espoused about the strongman. That was a huge beauty standard at that point in Hitler’s Germany, was specifically this idea of a man who is super jacked and is super like, is mogged, really, and I have no other word for it really. It’s just like they really..\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A mogged man has always been this cultural fascination and in many ways a mogged woman, obviously. Um, has been a huge part of, uh, fascist ideology for a long time. You know, think about all these essays about why Republican women all look the same and they have this specific look about them. And it has a lot to do with this culture of self-improvement and making all these alterations to yourself to try and earn your way or like bootstrap your way into beauty and therefore access and power and all of these things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Okay, well, looksmaxxing, the big thing of the year right now, do we save or do we scroll? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, I’m saving it because I think there’s going to be developments. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, yeah, there are going to be new words that have never been said before. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s going be crazy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But looks maxed as a trend, I think we’re saving. After the break, a new bombshell enters the villa. Unfortunately, she’s AI generated and also made of fruit. Steffi and I are going to explain all of the drama around AI Fruit Love Island. Stick around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have a story for you now. Are you familiar with AI Fruit Love Island? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, am I! Oh my god, I feel like it came out of nowhere and then it’s sudden, it’s like omnipresent now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, for the uninitiated, AI Fruit Love Island was this interactive AI-slop parody of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Love Island\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> with sexy anthropomorphized fruit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip of Audio from AI Fruit Love Island] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Host: Welcome Back to Fruit Love Island. Today we’ve got a steamy challenge and after over 370,000 viewer votes, our bombshells have officially hit the villa. All right ladies let’s get this started. You’ll be kissed one by each guy and after each kiss you rate it. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so that is one of the episodes of Fruit Love Island. What was happening in that clip? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, it’s basically just a real \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Love Island\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> challenge, but done with fruit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, they have human bodies, um, but their heads are fruit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These are all like, obviously done by AI. The colors are highly saturated. It’s super bright, super like in your face. And then a grape man wearing a Hawaiian shirt and, uh, board shorts, like comes up and kisses the fruit ladies blindfolded. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip of Audio from AI Fruit Love Island] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Host: Grapenzo, you’re up first. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Contestant: That was hot, an 8.5. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You see all these badly done reactions in the background of these AI fruit women laughing and sort of being like, ha ha ha, this is crazy. So it just is like a \u003cem>Love Island\u003c/em> episode, but with fruit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for context, this TikTok account kind of came out of nowhere, AICinema021, and they gained about 3.1 million followers in like a week and a half. And now there are so many copycat accounts. The characters include Limeyra, the lime, Bananito, the banana who has abs and is always shirtless, Strawberrina, the strawberry, Coconick, the sexy coconut. And yeah, it’s not good. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The animation and voices are all stilted. There’s zero consistency. It’s pure slop. So viewers gave storyline feedback via Google Form and voted for their faves in the comments. And this account was getting crazy numbers, like 20 million views per episode at its peak and just churning out new episodes every day. I feel like it used to be kind of embarrassing to enjoy this kind of content, but then you had Zara Larsson and Joe Jonas being like, ‘Oh my God, I can’t wait for the next episode.’ Like major celebrities. But yeah, what’s your like initial gut reaction here? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it makes sense why this thing is taken off, because even though young people online want to act like only boomers love watching AI slop, the fact is our brains are primed to watch AI slop. We have all these deep fried memes and internet humor is so self-referential, but it removes a lot of these barriers in our heads of consuming something like this that really feels as though, like, okay, maybe, um, what could be embarrassing previously could be ironically fun now. I love it because it’s fascinating to see how excited people get about it. But like, is the content good? No, it’s trash, but I don’t think it’s trying to be good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Well, have you been following the great AI Fruit Love Island crash out… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have not. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…that happened over the weekend? Okay. So this account literally gained millions and millions of followers, three million followers in like a week and a half, which is insane. Like there are human creators who grind for years to get a third of that. But, you know, this account was able to just churn out content so fast and people were invested. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So basically, people were criticizing the account for being AI slop and criticizing viewers for being slop consumers. And the creator did not respond well. In TikTok comments, they complained about how hard it was to make this content and basically implied that like viewers were ungrateful. A real hilarious irony where they were like, it’s really hard because I have to prompt so many times and the AI sometimes messes up and I have to redo it and then I have edit it together. And it sometimes takes me like three hours to make one of these videos. And it’s like, yeah, well… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Imagine how long it must take to film a real TV episode? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s so funny that they’re like, this is so hard, even like having to prompt a generator to be like, and now make Strawberrina kiss the kiwi man is like too much effort. So then their video started getting removed. The creator claimed that it was part of a mass reporting campaign and started crashing onto their story. So this was the first one…they were, I guess, sick of it, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were like, “This is it. I’m sick of all of you.” They were getting criticized for like wasting water basically and people were pointing out like, hey, this is like really sh*tty that you’re kind of encouraging this consumption. So they were posting like, “Was a good run, didn’t expect any of this, but here we are from being a nobody to being cancelled. I guess I’ll take it. People hate to see people win,”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s awesome! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…with screenshots from like their episodes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’t the funniest thing I’ve ever seen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“I’m so glad y’all got what you wanted. Saving the planet three gallons of water at a time, truly inspirational. It’s like, f*ck all y’all, you jealous motherf*ckers, save the planet, OMG, water, OMG. I love water, clean water, please clean water. What y’ all sound like.”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s hilarious. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Thanks for 3 million followers though. Wow, I guess some might like it.” Then they posted one final one, basically saying like, this series is over, this is it, with Bananito, a fan favorite, unfortunately, the sexy banana that is never wearing a shirt. Um, and basically they said, “All right, f*ck all you b*tches, no more Fruit Love Island. Since people are so obsessed with it, all my videos banned, I make no money. I guess I am being targeted because no other AI account is getting f*cked. Y’all heard it from Bananito himself. Bye.”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bye. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s just really funny because they also got mad that other like copycat AI accounts were like copying their theme, which is a real like, so many layers between like, being mad about the copycats and then being like suddenly like creative integrity matters basically. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then being mad at like the effort it took to make these videos. The layers of complete unawareness just go so deep. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter] It’s one of those things where I’m like, oh, of course, this is where we are. People are so fixated on this idea of it’s fine until it’s me because passive consumption is just so self-centric, you’re only thinking about yourself. So of course this person’s mad that other people are stealing their AI fruit slop content without contributing to the AI slop database that can then pull out more content. Okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like a content self-eating snake, you know? But I will say, there is one glimmer of hope, despite how many people were obsessed with this slop. I would say there’s an equal faction of people who are really into human-made content. And so this inspired several Fruit Love Island non-AI copycats,. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With real fruit? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…which I will show you now, which is really beautiful. I love that people are doing this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip of Audio from Fruit Love Island] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Host: Welcome to episode one of Fruit Love Island, that’s not AI. I’ve made sure to gather the juiciest of drama in the villa in the past day. Now let’s see what’s happened. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Contestant: I’m here to break hearts, not to fall in love. Hopefully these guys don’t get too attached. Or I don’t. I won’t though. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s basically a similar idea, but it’s not really animated so much as like, there are these photoshopped pictures of like people, human bodies with fruits for heads. It’s a human being that made this and it’s not as refined, but they did get voice actors on Discord to like volunteer their voices and voice all of this. And so I’m just like really encouraged by the fact that this has kind of blown up this non-AI Fruit Love Island. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s beautiful. I think we need to reject modernity and embrace tradition in a lot of ways, because we already had Annoying Orange. We need to bring back the original recipes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know. And like Annoying Orange,I hated that content. I didn’t dread it. But you know what? A human being made it.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nSteffi Cao: \u003c/b>A human-being made it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>So AI Fruit Love Island, do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m gonna scroll on it, but I defer to you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m going to scroll on it too. I think it had a good run. I don’t think we need more of it. I think the crash out was beautiful and hilarious and a real internet moment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Perfect irony. It’s truly, like, perfect. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tell us about this next story you brought. What’s going on with BTS’ new album? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of BTS music] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Swim swim, \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is how it all begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Swim, swim\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just wanna dive…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BTS was away in the military for four years, and the K-pop group, who was arguably one of the biggest acts in the industry and has been for many years, returned with an album called Arirang, and it was predominantly sung in English, and because of that, as well as the fact that it was a different sound from what they’ve previously put out in the past, it was, I think, personally sonically more mixed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of BTS music] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Watch this, watch this, \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Beat going hooligan. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We pop out, we actin’ a fool again \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It became very controversial. It didn’t also help that when they did their first live performance in Seoul after the fact, there were a lot of statistics reported about how many people actually attended. They shut down a very busy intersection in Seoul saying that 300,000 people were expected to show up. Korean officials, some of them said that as low as 42,000 showed up and there were adverse impacts from store owners who expected a lot of influx but didn’t get that. And so now there’s this huge debate happening about this album, what it means for K-pop in the industry and like how things have shifted, et cetera. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you think the fandom has aged out of, like, acting like fans? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>[Laughter] \u003c/em>I think that the industry has shifted a lot, and what a fan should act like has changed with it. Because I think in the past, the eternal struggle of a BTS ARMY was trying to convince people that K-pop was a serious art form, that it wasn’t just some silly thing that teen girls listened to, that it was corporate slop pop music, that there were a lot of uphill battles, I think, for a K-Pop fan.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I think now, over the past four years, you’ve seen a lot more Western embrace of K-pop as a serious art form, as a legitimate cultural export, and not like a niche subculture. So I think that with “K-Pop Demon Hunters”, you have Blackpink headlining Coachella, you had KATSEYE at Lollapalooza, you had all these bigger acts coming out of a Korean system that I think is legitimized in a different way. And so I think that BTS ARMY doesn’t have to convince anyone anymore that BTS is legit. It has shifted this fan identity of like, okay, well, now what? And now what happens?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right, you mentioned that like the entire album is sang in English or like all the lyrics are mostly in English, which is interesting because Arirang is a really culturally important folk song in Korea with a lot of history behind it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip of Arirang sung in Korean from Youtube user @Miss_Taex] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think people expected a little bit more of that cultural representation with this album. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think BTS has also throughout their career really emphasized their Korean-ness, especially because they tend to sample a lot of traditional Korean music, a lot of Korean culture comes into play into their performances. And so I think that it was disappointing for a lot fans to open up this album and hear Teddy Swims in the song. Right? They end on a country song, which is like, possibly the most American form of music that we associate in mainstream culture. We don’t associate country music with Korea. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, right. And it’s a hard thing to follow “K-Pop Demon Hunters.” Just like the way that that movie was such a cultural moment and how it introduced so many people to Korean folklore and Korean culture and Korean language. That was a movie that was in English, but a lot of the songs were in Korean. And a lot people who have never spoken Korean learned those songs. And so it’s interesting that BTS wouldn’t see that and like kind of seize the moment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, 100%. I think that it’s frustrating as a fan to feel like the whole reason that you fell so deeply in love with this group has suddenly shifted under your feet and that the intention of the group’s project didn’t align with where you thought they were going to go. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Okay, well, BTS’s new album, do we save or do we scroll? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think. I’m going to personally scroll on it, but I think that there’s a lot to talk about in terms of like Asian artistry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a lot to keep an eye on, but personally, don’t come for me, ARMY. I didn’t like the album. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Me either. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I’m gonna scroll on it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was just bored. I was bored. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m in ARMY. I’m in ARMY-da. And I got the tickets. Any ARMY that wants to come for me and I will see you at MetLife. I’ve got the tickets. And what now? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But you can be disappointed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’m disappointed in the album. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re allowed to be disappointed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m disappointed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you’re allowed to scroll. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I am allowed to scroll on it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, last story for today. The Meta lawsuits. Okay, so Meta faced two separate lawsuits: one in California over social media addiction and one in New Mexico for child safety. The one in California took place in LA and it centered around this 20 year-old woman who said that she became addicted to YouTube and Instagram as a child. And that that greatly affected her mental health.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So Snapchat and TikTok were also both defendants, but they settled before it went to court. And a jury in LA found Google and Meta both negligent because the design of their apps encourages infinite scrolling. And the companies didn’t warn users about the dangers of that. So the plaintiff’s lawyer said that both Meta and Google intentionally target kids and prioritize profit over safety. \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nThe jury concluded that Meta is liable for $4.2 million in damages, and Google is liable for $1.8 million. And then for the case in New Mexico, the state sued Meta over child safety issues. Former employees testified that underage users were shown sexualized content on Instagram and were exposed to predators. And during the court proceedings, they said that Meta’s decision to encrypt Facebook Messenger blocked access to evidence of predators grooming minors. And basically, this is the first time that New Mexico, as a state, was able to successfully sue Meta. So now Meta was ordered to pay $375 million.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So these lawsuits are being celebrated as huge wins for child safety and kind of taking down these evil tech companies. But I’m kind of skeptical of big companies like Meta and Google actually changing their practices. And whenever I hear like child safety social media lawsuit or like child safety and social media in the same sentence, I’m like, everyone wants kids to be safe. Everyone wants to protect the kids. No one wants to expose kids to predators or inappropriate content. But alarm bells are going off in my head where I’m, like, will they be using this to justify more surveillance and more censorship and more practices like age verification, which we’ve covered a lot on this show. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it makes sense that there’s a lot of cynicism around these child safety lawsuits because what we’ve seen over our careers is that every time there has been one of these landmark lawsuits, it’s like, what is it actually put into practice? People have been concerned about this topic for many, many years, but it feels like the people who are in Congress still miss the mark on the concept of social media as itself. We’ve seen endless clips of Congress people essentially asking Mark Zuckerberg for tech help during Senate hearings. Yeah. So it makes sense that this verdict, even though it’s being lauded as a huge case, I’m not convinced on it either. We’ve seen Meta pay up a lot in the past, and it hasn’t seemed to really shift the needle at all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s like, if anything, the practices don’t change. Kids aren’t necessarily safer. And everyone else is a little bit more surveilled and censored, like, with the current wave of age verification requirements, like, sweeping any internet platform whatsoever, where you have to put in your ID to continue using Spotify in some countries and I really distrust that. And, I do kind of worry that like any kind of trying to like ensure child safety on social media will just be used to justify more age verification laws. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, 100%. I think that the solution being trusting big tech to manage more of our data and requests that we give up more of privacy is like, it makes a lot of sense as people who’ve grown up online and we’ve seen this play before. It does, I think, breed more of a culture of surveillance.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think also the problem with this lawsuit is that like, it’s not a silver bullet. Like this is a multi-pronged problem where it’s like a part of it is having adults be smarter about their tech use and teaching their kids to critically analyze the content they’re consuming day in and day out. It’s a lot on the education system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s on providing structural support for young kids to have more time offline to build all these social skills that when you are isolated and just on your feed even though it can be very fun and exciting to be on Tumblr as a 16-year-old, freewheeling it online, you still need an infrastructure behind you to teach you all these skills that you don’t really get when you are online.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So it’s like a multi-pronged problem. It really is on every adult, regardless of where you stand, if you have kids or not, to try and train yourself to be better about your own skillset, because they’re kids, they’re just imitating whatever resource is there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right, and it’s like, Taylor Lorenz on her Free Speech Friday series pointed out that a lot of kids do still, you still need to let them have agency online in some capacity and just like, you know, a lot kids do rely on these online resources to access information about sex ed or find queer community when they don’t have that in real life and to potentially silo them further and take that away could actually endanger kids. Okay, the child safety lawsuits with Meta and Google, do we save or do we scroll? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel like we’re going to have to save it because this is going to continue. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, It’s an evergreen save. This is just collecting more and more tabs every day. Thank you so much for joining us, Steffi. Where can people follow your work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steffi Cao: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much for having me, Morgan. You can check me out on Instagram at Steffi Cao, S-T-E-F-F-I-C-A-O, and my sub-stack, It’s Steffi. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Perfect, thanks so much. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and it’s reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. Our team includes producer, Maya Cueva. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts. Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor in chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you like these deep dives? Are you closing your tabs? Then don’t forget to rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Maybe drop a comment too. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>The man accused of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12079446/man-threw-molotov-at-sam-altmans-home-then-threatened-to-burn-down-openai-police-say\">firebombing Sam Altman’s home\u003c/a> was experiencing a mental health crisis when he attacked the OpenAI CEO’s residence and company headquarters last week, his attorneys said Tuesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Following his first court appearance in San Francisco Superior Court, defense attorneys suggested Daniel Moreno-Gama, 20, of Spring, Texas, was overcharged and that his attacks should be tried as property crime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is unfair and is unjust for the San Francisco district attorney and the federal government to fearmonger and to exploit the mental illness of a vulnerable young man by turning a vandalism case into an attempted murder life exposure case to gain support of a billionaire,” Deputy Public Defender Diamond Ward said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Moreno-Gama is accused of traveling from Texas to San Francisco to target Altman and his company. Authorities said he threw a Molotov cocktail at the CEO’s Russian Hill home before threatening to burn down OpenAI’s Mission Bay building early Friday morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>No one was harmed in either of the incidents. Moreno-Gama’s attorneys said that there was some damage to a gate at Altman’s house.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Daniel is entitled to due process and fair proceedings. Myself, as well as my co-counsel and the rest of my team, will zealously defend Daniel and seek a just outcome in this case,” Ward told reporters on Tuesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079905\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 885px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079905\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260414-ALTMAN-ATTACK-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"885\" height=\"540\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260414-ALTMAN-ATTACK-KQED.jpg 885w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260414-ALTMAN-ATTACK-KQED-160x98.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 885px) 100vw, 885px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An image posted by the FBI shows Daniel Moreno-Gama, 20, of Spring, Texas, who authorities allege traveled to San Francisco to target Sam Altman, CEO of OpenAI. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Federal Bureau of Investigations)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Moreno-Gama faces two counts of attempted murder, arson and attempted arson, among other charges, from the San Francisco District Attorney’s office, as well as federal charges for attempted damage and destruction of property by means of explosives and possession of an unregistered firearm, brought by the U.S. Attorney’s office. If found guilty, he could face up to life in prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At a press conference announcing the charges against him on Monday, Matt Cobo, the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s acting special agent in charge of San Francisco, said Moreno-Gama’s actions reflected a “dangerous and deliberate plan to bring violence into San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The defendant is alleged to have traveled across state lines with the intent to go target an individual and a major technology company,” Cobo continued. “This was not spontaneous. This was planned, targeted, and extremely serious.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Moreno-Gama has been in custody since Friday, when he was arrested outside of OpenAI’s San Francisco headquarters. After throwing the Molotov cocktail at Altman’s home, he fled on foot and turned up at the office, where he rammed a chair into the building’s glass doors and threatened to burn it down, killing anybody inside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SFPD officers said Moreno-Gama was carrying additional incendiary devices, kerosene and a lighter. He also had a document titled “Your Last Warning,” which identified himself as the author, when he was arrested.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079900\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079900\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/BrookeJenkinsAltmanGetty1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/BrookeJenkinsAltmanGetty1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/BrookeJenkinsAltmanGetty1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/BrookeJenkinsAltmanGetty1-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">San Francisco District Attorney Brooke Jenkins speaks during a press conference where charges against the suspect in the OpenAI CEO Sam Altman mansion firebombing was announced at SFPD headquarters on Monday, April 13, 2026, in San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Lea Suzuki/San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The multi-part manifesto allegedly “advocated against AI and for the killing and commission of other crimes against CEOs of AI companies and their investors,” according to the Department of Justice. It also included the names and purported addresses of a number of the sector’s prominent CEOs and investors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The document ended with an admission to attempting to kill Altman, and a letter addressed to the OpenAI CEO, saying, “If by some miracle you live, then I would take this as a sign from the divine to redeem yourself.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cobo said the FBI and SFPD had been in contact with the other AI leaders identified in the manifesto, and did not assess any specific threats toward them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079884\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079884\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SamAltmanHomeGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SamAltmanHomeGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SamAltmanHomeGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SamAltmanHomeGetty2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A view of OpenAI CEO Sam Altman’s house in Russian Hill after a suspected Molotov cocktail attack in San Francisco, California, on April 13, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tayfun Coskun/Anadolu via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>U.S. Attorney Craig Missakian said the DOJ’s investigation is still developing. He said the incident could evolve to be treated as an act of domestic terrorism if officials determine that Moreno-Gama acted with intent to sway public policy or coerce government or public officials.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Moreno-Gama did not enter a plea on Tuesday, but will remain in custody without bail until his arraignment in May. A court date for the federal charges hasn’t yet been set.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Judge Kenneth Wine also granted a protective order from the district attorney’s office, ordering Moreno-Gama not to have any contact with the people named in the manifesto, or to encourage anyone directly or indirectly to contact them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s extraordinarily bad,” Wine said of Moreno-Gama’s actions in court.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Moreno-Gama is accused of traveling from Texas to San Francisco to target Altman and his company. Authorities said he threw a Molotov cocktail at the CEO’s Russian Hill home before threatening to burn down OpenAI’s Mission Bay building early Friday morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>No one was harmed in either of the incidents. Moreno-Gama’s attorneys said that there was some damage to a gate at Altman’s house.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Daniel is entitled to due process and fair proceedings. Myself, as well as my co-counsel and the rest of my team, will zealously defend Daniel and seek a just outcome in this case,” Ward told reporters on Tuesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079905\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 885px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079905\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260414-ALTMAN-ATTACK-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"885\" height=\"540\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260414-ALTMAN-ATTACK-KQED.jpg 885w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260414-ALTMAN-ATTACK-KQED-160x98.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 885px) 100vw, 885px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An image posted by the FBI shows Daniel Moreno-Gama, 20, of Spring, Texas, who authorities allege traveled to San Francisco to target Sam Altman, CEO of OpenAI. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Federal Bureau of Investigations)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Moreno-Gama faces two counts of attempted murder, arson and attempted arson, among other charges, from the San Francisco District Attorney’s office, as well as federal charges for attempted damage and destruction of property by means of explosives and possession of an unregistered firearm, brought by the U.S. Attorney’s office. If found guilty, he could face up to life in prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At a press conference announcing the charges against him on Monday, Matt Cobo, the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s acting special agent in charge of San Francisco, said Moreno-Gama’s actions reflected a “dangerous and deliberate plan to bring violence into San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The defendant is alleged to have traveled across state lines with the intent to go target an individual and a major technology company,” Cobo continued. “This was not spontaneous. This was planned, targeted, and extremely serious.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Moreno-Gama has been in custody since Friday, when he was arrested outside of OpenAI’s San Francisco headquarters. After throwing the Molotov cocktail at Altman’s home, he fled on foot and turned up at the office, where he rammed a chair into the building’s glass doors and threatened to burn it down, killing anybody inside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SFPD officers said Moreno-Gama was carrying additional incendiary devices, kerosene and a lighter. He also had a document titled “Your Last Warning,” which identified himself as the author, when he was arrested.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079900\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079900\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/BrookeJenkinsAltmanGetty1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/BrookeJenkinsAltmanGetty1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/BrookeJenkinsAltmanGetty1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/BrookeJenkinsAltmanGetty1-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">San Francisco District Attorney Brooke Jenkins speaks during a press conference where charges against the suspect in the OpenAI CEO Sam Altman mansion firebombing was announced at SFPD headquarters on Monday, April 13, 2026, in San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Lea Suzuki/San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The multi-part manifesto allegedly “advocated against AI and for the killing and commission of other crimes against CEOs of AI companies and their investors,” according to the Department of Justice. It also included the names and purported addresses of a number of the sector’s prominent CEOs and investors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The document ended with an admission to attempting to kill Altman, and a letter addressed to the OpenAI CEO, saying, “If by some miracle you live, then I would take this as a sign from the divine to redeem yourself.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cobo said the FBI and SFPD had been in contact with the other AI leaders identified in the manifesto, and did not assess any specific threats toward them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079884\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079884\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SamAltmanHomeGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SamAltmanHomeGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SamAltmanHomeGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SamAltmanHomeGetty2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A view of OpenAI CEO Sam Altman’s house in Russian Hill after a suspected Molotov cocktail attack in San Francisco, California, on April 13, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tayfun Coskun/Anadolu via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>U.S. Attorney Craig Missakian said the DOJ’s investigation is still developing. He said the incident could evolve to be treated as an act of domestic terrorism if officials determine that Moreno-Gama acted with intent to sway public policy or coerce government or public officials.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Moreno-Gama did not enter a plea on Tuesday, but will remain in custody without bail until his arraignment in May. A court date for the federal charges hasn’t yet been set.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Judge Kenneth Wine also granted a protective order from the district attorney’s office, ordering Moreno-Gama not to have any contact with the people named in the manifesto, or to encourage anyone directly or indirectly to contact them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s extraordinarily bad,” Wine said of Moreno-Gama’s actions in court.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>An independent review of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/category/technology\">Microsoft, Meta and Google\u003c/a> web traffic in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california\">California\u003c/a> in March found the tech companies may have violated state regulations around internet privacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://globalprivacyaudit.org/2026/california\">audit\u003c/a>, by \u003ca href=\"https://webxray.ai/\">webXray\u003c/a>, also said that nearly 200 online advertising services ignored “legally defined, globally standard, opt-out signals” around data sharing, along with more than half of nearly 7,000 websites in California, despite user requests to opt-out of cookie tracking, the most visible opt-out mechanism the laws require.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is despite the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11792899/the-california-consumer-privacy-act-mandates-what-again-exactly\">California Consumer Privacy Act\u003c/a>, as expanded by the\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11801063/get-ready-for-another-consumer-privacy-initiative-in-california#:~:text=Listen,to%20the%20Attorney%20General's%20Office.\"> California Privacy Rights Act\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11844163/proposition-24-californians-say-yes-to-expanding-on-nations-toughest-data-privacy-law\"> other state privacy legislation\u003c/a>, enforced by both the state attorney general’s office and the California Privacy Protection Agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our findings reveal major technology companies simply ignore globally defined opt-out signals, raising the spectre of industrial-scale non-compliance with California requirements,” the \u003ca href=\"https://globalprivacyaudit.org/2026/california\">report’s\u003c/a> website states.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Businesses that sell or share your personal information are legally required to honor the \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/privacy/ccpa/gpc\">Global Privacy Control\u003c/a>, a “stop selling or sharing my data” switch available on web browsers, or as a browser extension.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The company that conducted the audit, webXray, was founded by Timothy Libert, a privacy expert who led cookie policy and compliance at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/google\">Google\u003c/a> offices in Sunnyvale from 2021 to 2023. Libert spent 15 years in academia studying the topic and worked as a consultant for national and state regulators before his time at Google.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11773481\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11773481\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/09/RS38974_GettyImages1091956764-qut.jpg\" alt=\"computer screen stock image\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/09/RS38974_GettyImages1091956764-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/09/RS38974_GettyImages1091956764-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/09/RS38974_GettyImages1091956764-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/09/RS38974_GettyImages1091956764-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/09/RS38974_GettyImages1091956764-qut-1200x800.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">With no federal law governing digital privacy, California’s Consumer Privacy Act was the first to offer state residents some control over the use of their data by companies. \u003ccite>(Jack Guez/AFP/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>webXray, his current venture, functions as a white-hat hacker outfit for hire, advising Silicon Valley companies on legal compliance and scouring the internet for privacy violations for law firms pursuing class action suits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Ask the average Californian if they feel they have more privacy now than before the CCPA was passed. I think the answer’s going to be no. And as somebody who has the ability, knowledge and background to measure it, I’m going to say scientifically, the answer is also no,” Libert told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the webXray audit, Google failed to let users opt out 86% of the time, Meta 69% and Microsoft 50%.[aside postID=news_12079472 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1501991882.jpg']“Google’s failure to honor the [Global Privacy Control] opt-out signal is easy to find in network traffic,” the report noted, concluding, “This non-compliance is easy to spot, hiding in plain sight.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Consumer privacy is a top priority for us, and we remain committed to transparency and compliance with applicable privacy requirements,” a Microsoft spokesperson said by email. “As outlined in our Privacy Statement, when we receive a GPC signal, we opt the user out of sharing personal data with third parties for personalized advertising, and our advertising systems are designed to reflect that choice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Certain Microsoft cookies are necessary for operational purposes, and may therefore be placed and read even when a GPC signal is detected.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This report is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how our products work. We honor opt-outs provided by advertisers and publishers as required by law,” a Google spokesperson wrote KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In an emailed statement, a Meta spokesperson called webXray’s audit “a blatant marketing ploy that misrepresents how the Global Privacy Control setting works,” and the company’s role.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The control setting restricts how data is shared, not collected, and Meta already requires that when using the Meta pixel, advertisers only share with us information they have obtained the right to share,” the statement continued. “Meta further encourages websites to use our Limited Data Use feature so they can clearly indicate to us when they have permission to share certain information – and when we get information identified that way, we restrict its use.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Libert disagreed, arguing as he did in his audit that “just adding a couple lines of code” would bring the companies into compliance with California law. “Their claims that I ‘misunderstood’ anything are farcical. I wrote the cookie policy,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12031243\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1568px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12031243\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/041922-ATTORNEY-GENERAL-OFFICE-MHN-03-CM-copy.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1568\" height=\"1045\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/041922-ATTORNEY-GENERAL-OFFICE-MHN-03-CM-copy.jpg 1568w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/041922-ATTORNEY-GENERAL-OFFICE-MHN-03-CM-copy-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/041922-ATTORNEY-GENERAL-OFFICE-MHN-03-CM-copy-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/041922-ATTORNEY-GENERAL-OFFICE-MHN-03-CM-copy-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/041922-ATTORNEY-GENERAL-OFFICE-MHN-03-CM-copy-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1568px) 100vw, 1568px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The seal above the offices of the California Department of Justice in Sacramento on April 19, 2022. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/CalMatters)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Under the CCPA, each violation carries a $2,500 fine, or $7,500 if intentional. The companies, he said, are wealthy enough to pay fines and shrug them off without changing how they do business. “If you make them change the code, the whole system falls apart, and that’s what they’re terrified of,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A spokesperson for the California Department of Justice declined to comment on the specific issues raised by the report, but wrote in an email, “We always welcome reporting about potential CCPA violations — anyone interested in reporting a potential violation to our office can go to \u003ca href=\"http://oag.ca.gov/report\">oag.ca.gov/report\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The\u003ca href=\"https://cppa.ca.gov\"> California Privacy Protection Agency\u003c/a> declined to comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The state attorney general’s office has settled with a wide variety of companies in\u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-la-city-attorney-feldstein-soto-announce-500000\"> gaming\u003c/a>,\u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-announces-largest-ccpa-settlement-date-secures-155\"> health\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12030969/california-privacy-agency-fines-american-honda-over-consumer-data-violations\"> automotive\u003c/a> industries; conducted sweeps of\u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-announces-investigative-sweep-location-data-industry\"> location data\u003c/a>,\u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-announces-investigative-sweep-focuses-streaming-services\"> streaming apps and devices\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/data-privacy-day-attorney-general-bonta-focuses-surveillance-pricing-compliance\"> surveillance pricing\u003c/a>; and formed information-sharing\u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/state-privacy-regulators-assemble-attorney-general-bonta-announces-bipartisan\"> partnerships\u003c/a> with other state regulators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The largest privacy settlement specifically under the CCPA reached by Attorney General Rob Bonta’s office was a $2.75 million settlement with\u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/california-wont-let-it-go-attorney-general-bonta-announces-275-million\"> the Walt Disney Company\u003c/a>, announced Feb.11, 2026.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12036125\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12036125\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Meta, Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Messenger and Threads logos are screened on a mobile phone on Jan. 25, 2025. \u003ccite>(Beata Zawrzel/NurPhoto via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>According to \u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3E%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3E%3E%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3E%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-\">404 Media,\u003c/a> Microsoft, Meta, and Google have collectively\u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2019/07/ftc-imposes-5-billion-penalty-sweeping-new-privacy-restrictions-facebook\"> paid billions\u003c/a> in\u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-regulation/google-must-pay-425-million-class-action-over-privacy-jury-rules-2025-09-03/?ref=404media.co\"> fees for\u003c/a> previous\u003ca href=\"https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1394?ref=404media.co\"> privacy violations\u003c/a> similar to the ones found during the audit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t really see that shifting the needle,” Libert said, adding the agencies’ actions provide only a “veneer of enforcement.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State legislators, meanwhile, said they are working to address the apparent lack of accountability by big tech companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Companies that refuse to comply with the law should face real consequences,” state Sen. Josh Becker, D-Menlo Park, said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Becker is the author of multiple bills giving Californians more power over their data, including the still-pending Expanding Privacy Rights Act, \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/2026/01/calprivacy-sponsors-bill-that-expands-deletion-rights-and-accessibility-requirements/'\">SB 923\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of those laws, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11947039/delete-act-seeks-to-give-californians-more-power-to-block-data-tracking\">the Delete Act\u003c/a>, allowed residents to \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/about-drop-and-the-delete-act/\">request\u003c/a> that all registered companies that buy and sell your data delete your personal information. Data brokers must begin honoring these requests by Aug. 1, 2026.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064635\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064635\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251119-MICROSOFT-GAZA-PROTEST-MD-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251119-MICROSOFT-GAZA-PROTEST-MD-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251119-MICROSOFT-GAZA-PROTEST-MD-01-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251119-MICROSOFT-GAZA-PROTEST-MD-01-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Attendees of the Microsoft Ignite conference walk through downtown San Francisco on Nov. 18, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I don’t think we’re nibbling around the edges” of the\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12028137/california-lawmakers-take-on-predatory-surveillance-pricing\"> ad-surveillance economy\u003c/a> Becker told KQED. “The Delete Act fundamentally gets to the heart of it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, he added, he acknowledged the challenges of fighting for this cause at the state level, versus the federal or even international.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Ultimately, all this is about reclaiming control over our data. When someone searches for medical care, manages their finances, looks for a job — that information is deeply personal, it should not be tracked, sold or weaponized without their consent,” Becker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "An independent privacy audit of Microsoft, Meta and Google web traffic in California found the companies appear to be violating state regulations, potentially exposing themselves to significant fines.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>An independent review of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/category/technology\">Microsoft, Meta and Google\u003c/a> web traffic in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california\">California\u003c/a> in March found the tech companies may have violated state regulations around internet privacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://globalprivacyaudit.org/2026/california\">audit\u003c/a>, by \u003ca href=\"https://webxray.ai/\">webXray\u003c/a>, also said that nearly 200 online advertising services ignored “legally defined, globally standard, opt-out signals” around data sharing, along with more than half of nearly 7,000 websites in California, despite user requests to opt-out of cookie tracking, the most visible opt-out mechanism the laws require.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is despite the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11792899/the-california-consumer-privacy-act-mandates-what-again-exactly\">California Consumer Privacy Act\u003c/a>, as expanded by the\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11801063/get-ready-for-another-consumer-privacy-initiative-in-california#:~:text=Listen,to%20the%20Attorney%20General's%20Office.\"> California Privacy Rights Act\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11844163/proposition-24-californians-say-yes-to-expanding-on-nations-toughest-data-privacy-law\"> other state privacy legislation\u003c/a>, enforced by both the state attorney general’s office and the California Privacy Protection Agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our findings reveal major technology companies simply ignore globally defined opt-out signals, raising the spectre of industrial-scale non-compliance with California requirements,” the \u003ca href=\"https://globalprivacyaudit.org/2026/california\">report’s\u003c/a> website states.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Businesses that sell or share your personal information are legally required to honor the \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/privacy/ccpa/gpc\">Global Privacy Control\u003c/a>, a “stop selling or sharing my data” switch available on web browsers, or as a browser extension.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The company that conducted the audit, webXray, was founded by Timothy Libert, a privacy expert who led cookie policy and compliance at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/google\">Google\u003c/a> offices in Sunnyvale from 2021 to 2023. Libert spent 15 years in academia studying the topic and worked as a consultant for national and state regulators before his time at Google.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11773481\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11773481\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/09/RS38974_GettyImages1091956764-qut.jpg\" alt=\"computer screen stock image\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/09/RS38974_GettyImages1091956764-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/09/RS38974_GettyImages1091956764-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/09/RS38974_GettyImages1091956764-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/09/RS38974_GettyImages1091956764-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/09/RS38974_GettyImages1091956764-qut-1200x800.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">With no federal law governing digital privacy, California’s Consumer Privacy Act was the first to offer state residents some control over the use of their data by companies. \u003ccite>(Jack Guez/AFP/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>webXray, his current venture, functions as a white-hat hacker outfit for hire, advising Silicon Valley companies on legal compliance and scouring the internet for privacy violations for law firms pursuing class action suits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Ask the average Californian if they feel they have more privacy now than before the CCPA was passed. I think the answer’s going to be no. And as somebody who has the ability, knowledge and background to measure it, I’m going to say scientifically, the answer is also no,” Libert told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the webXray audit, Google failed to let users opt out 86% of the time, Meta 69% and Microsoft 50%.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“Google’s failure to honor the [Global Privacy Control] opt-out signal is easy to find in network traffic,” the report noted, concluding, “This non-compliance is easy to spot, hiding in plain sight.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Consumer privacy is a top priority for us, and we remain committed to transparency and compliance with applicable privacy requirements,” a Microsoft spokesperson said by email. “As outlined in our Privacy Statement, when we receive a GPC signal, we opt the user out of sharing personal data with third parties for personalized advertising, and our advertising systems are designed to reflect that choice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Certain Microsoft cookies are necessary for operational purposes, and may therefore be placed and read even when a GPC signal is detected.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This report is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how our products work. We honor opt-outs provided by advertisers and publishers as required by law,” a Google spokesperson wrote KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In an emailed statement, a Meta spokesperson called webXray’s audit “a blatant marketing ploy that misrepresents how the Global Privacy Control setting works,” and the company’s role.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The control setting restricts how data is shared, not collected, and Meta already requires that when using the Meta pixel, advertisers only share with us information they have obtained the right to share,” the statement continued. “Meta further encourages websites to use our Limited Data Use feature so they can clearly indicate to us when they have permission to share certain information – and when we get information identified that way, we restrict its use.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Libert disagreed, arguing as he did in his audit that “just adding a couple lines of code” would bring the companies into compliance with California law. “Their claims that I ‘misunderstood’ anything are farcical. I wrote the cookie policy,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12031243\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1568px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12031243\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/041922-ATTORNEY-GENERAL-OFFICE-MHN-03-CM-copy.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1568\" height=\"1045\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/041922-ATTORNEY-GENERAL-OFFICE-MHN-03-CM-copy.jpg 1568w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/041922-ATTORNEY-GENERAL-OFFICE-MHN-03-CM-copy-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/041922-ATTORNEY-GENERAL-OFFICE-MHN-03-CM-copy-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/041922-ATTORNEY-GENERAL-OFFICE-MHN-03-CM-copy-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/041922-ATTORNEY-GENERAL-OFFICE-MHN-03-CM-copy-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1568px) 100vw, 1568px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The seal above the offices of the California Department of Justice in Sacramento on April 19, 2022. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/CalMatters)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Under the CCPA, each violation carries a $2,500 fine, or $7,500 if intentional. The companies, he said, are wealthy enough to pay fines and shrug them off without changing how they do business. “If you make them change the code, the whole system falls apart, and that’s what they’re terrified of,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A spokesperson for the California Department of Justice declined to comment on the specific issues raised by the report, but wrote in an email, “We always welcome reporting about potential CCPA violations — anyone interested in reporting a potential violation to our office can go to \u003ca href=\"http://oag.ca.gov/report\">oag.ca.gov/report\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The\u003ca href=\"https://cppa.ca.gov\"> California Privacy Protection Agency\u003c/a> declined to comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The state attorney general’s office has settled with a wide variety of companies in\u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-la-city-attorney-feldstein-soto-announce-500000\"> gaming\u003c/a>,\u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-announces-largest-ccpa-settlement-date-secures-155\"> health\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12030969/california-privacy-agency-fines-american-honda-over-consumer-data-violations\"> automotive\u003c/a> industries; conducted sweeps of\u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-announces-investigative-sweep-location-data-industry\"> location data\u003c/a>,\u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-announces-investigative-sweep-focuses-streaming-services\"> streaming apps and devices\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/data-privacy-day-attorney-general-bonta-focuses-surveillance-pricing-compliance\"> surveillance pricing\u003c/a>; and formed information-sharing\u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/state-privacy-regulators-assemble-attorney-general-bonta-announces-bipartisan\"> partnerships\u003c/a> with other state regulators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The largest privacy settlement specifically under the CCPA reached by Attorney General Rob Bonta’s office was a $2.75 million settlement with\u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/california-wont-let-it-go-attorney-general-bonta-announces-275-million\"> the Walt Disney Company\u003c/a>, announced Feb.11, 2026.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12036125\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12036125\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Meta, Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Messenger and Threads logos are screened on a mobile phone on Jan. 25, 2025. \u003ccite>(Beata Zawrzel/NurPhoto via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>According to \u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3E%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3E%3E%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3E%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-independent-audit/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter%3E%3Chttps://www.404media.co/google-microsoft-meta-all-tracking-you-even-when-you-opt-out-according-to-an-\">404 Media,\u003c/a> Microsoft, Meta, and Google have collectively\u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2019/07/ftc-imposes-5-billion-penalty-sweeping-new-privacy-restrictions-facebook\"> paid billions\u003c/a> in\u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-regulation/google-must-pay-425-million-class-action-over-privacy-jury-rules-2025-09-03/?ref=404media.co\"> fees for\u003c/a> previous\u003ca href=\"https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1394?ref=404media.co\"> privacy violations\u003c/a> similar to the ones found during the audit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t really see that shifting the needle,” Libert said, adding the agencies’ actions provide only a “veneer of enforcement.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State legislators, meanwhile, said they are working to address the apparent lack of accountability by big tech companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Companies that refuse to comply with the law should face real consequences,” state Sen. Josh Becker, D-Menlo Park, said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Becker is the author of multiple bills giving Californians more power over their data, including the still-pending Expanding Privacy Rights Act, \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/2026/01/calprivacy-sponsors-bill-that-expands-deletion-rights-and-accessibility-requirements/'\">SB 923\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of those laws, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11947039/delete-act-seeks-to-give-californians-more-power-to-block-data-tracking\">the Delete Act\u003c/a>, allowed residents to \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/about-drop-and-the-delete-act/\">request\u003c/a> that all registered companies that buy and sell your data delete your personal information. Data brokers must begin honoring these requests by Aug. 1, 2026.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064635\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064635\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251119-MICROSOFT-GAZA-PROTEST-MD-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251119-MICROSOFT-GAZA-PROTEST-MD-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251119-MICROSOFT-GAZA-PROTEST-MD-01-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251119-MICROSOFT-GAZA-PROTEST-MD-01-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Attendees of the Microsoft Ignite conference walk through downtown San Francisco on Nov. 18, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I don’t think we’re nibbling around the edges” of the\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12028137/california-lawmakers-take-on-predatory-surveillance-pricing\"> ad-surveillance economy\u003c/a> Becker told KQED. “The Delete Act fundamentally gets to the heart of it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, he added, he acknowledged the challenges of fighting for this cause at the state level, versus the federal or even international.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Ultimately, all this is about reclaiming control over our data. When someone searches for medical care, manages their finances, looks for a job — that information is deeply personal, it should not be tracked, sold or weaponized without their consent,” Becker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "doj-man-who-attacked-sam-altmans-house-threatened-to-kill-other-tech-ceos",
"title": "DOJ: Man Who Attacked Sam Altman’s House Threatened to Kill Other Tech CEOs",
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"headTitle": "DOJ: Man Who Attacked Sam Altman’s House Threatened to Kill Other Tech CEOs | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>Federal and local authorities charged a Texas man with the attempted murder of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a> CEO Sam Altman on Monday after attacks at his \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> home and company headquarters last week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Daniel Moreno-Gama, 20, of Spring, Texas, faces two counts of attempted murder, arson and attempted arson, among other charges, from the San Francisco District Attorney’s office, as well as charges brought by the U.S. Attorney’s office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Today’s charges outline a dangerous and deliberate plan to bring violence into San Francisco,” said Matt Cobo, the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s acting special agent in charge of San Francisco. “The defendant is alleged to have traveled across state lines with the intent to go target an individual and a major technology company. This was not spontaneous. This was planned, targeted, and extremely serious.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Moreno-Gama was arrested Friday in San Francisco after allegedly throwing the improvised explosive at Altman’s residence in Russian Hill. He fled on foot and was arrested shortly after, outside of OpenAI’s Mission Bay headquarters. There, he attempted to break the glass doors of the building with a chair, and said that he had come to burn down the building and kill anyone inside, according to the U.S. Department of Justice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the complaint, when arrested, Moreno-Gama was carrying additional incendiary devices, a jug of kerosene, a lighter, and a document titled “Your Last Warning,” a manifesto, which identified himself as the author.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The document allegedly “advocated against AI and for the killing and commission of other crimes against CEOs of AI companies and their investors,” the DOJ said in a press release. It included the names and addresses believed to belong to some of the sector’s prominent CEOs and investors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079756\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079756\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SamAltmanHomeGetty1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SamAltmanHomeGetty1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SamAltmanHomeGetty1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SamAltmanHomeGetty1-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Security cameras are seen at an entrance to the home of Sam Altman on Lombard Street on Friday, April 10, 2026, in San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Lea Suzuki/San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The document also included an admission to attempting to kill Altman, and ended with a letter addressed to the CEO, which said: “If by some miracle you love, then I would take this as a sign from the divine to redeem yourself.” In the document, Moreno-Gama also urged others to join his effort.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cobo said the FBI and SFPD have gone through the document thoroughly, and made contact with people referenced in it. He said they did not assess that there was any specific threat toward the named people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We interpret this behavior for just what it is, an attempt on Mr. Altman’s life,” District Attorney Brooke Jenkins said at a press conference on Monday. “It’s an extreme danger to those around him and those who work for his company. My office will prosecute this case to the fullest extent of the law.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Moreno-Gama faces a slew of charges in San Francisco Superior Court in addition to attempted murder and arson, including possession of a destructive device, exploding or igniting a destructive device with the intent to murder. If found guilty, Moreno-Gama could face 19 years to life in prison, Jenkins said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the federal level, Moreno-Gama is charged with attempted damage and destruction of property by means of explosives and possession of an unregistered firearm.[aside postID=news_12079446 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/111623_Sam-Altman_AP_CM_01.jpeg'] U.S. Attorney Craig Missakian said the DOJ’s investigation is still developing, but if evidence shows Moreno-Gama attempted to execute the attacks to sway public policy, or coerce government or public officials, it could be treated as an act of domestic terrorism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is okay to disagree, it is okay to debate, this is a country that was built on both,” Missakian said. “But remember, the truth is often found in that very narrow space where two competing ideas come together and clash, and we will not tolerate any attempt to change the way Americans live and work or think through fear or violence.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the months leading up to Friday’s attack, a person writing under the \u003ca href=\"https://morenogama.substack.com/p/ai-existential-risk-is-real\">same name \u003c/a>as Moreno-Gama published a series of posts on Substack about the danger of artificial intelligence, calling it an existential threat, and referring to Altman as a pathological liar. The articles also include allegations of criminal conduct against Altman, for which the writer said, “he has faced zero consequences and is very likely to never face any, given his deep connections and ample resources.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This should be a moment where our nation reflects on the often incendiary rhetoric that is being used in discussions about artificial intelligence and its future impact on our society,” Jenkins said. “In no way should we have hit the point where a man could have lost his life over differences of opinion and concerns.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Following Friday’s incident, Altman published a \u003ca href=\"https://blog.samaltman.com/2279512\">photograph \u003c/a>of his daughter and husband on his online blog, alluding to a possible connection between the growing fear of AI and the attack.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I am sharing a photo in the hopes that it might dissuade the next person from throwing a Molotov cocktail at our house, no matter what they think about me,” he wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Altman went on to reference an “incendiary” article published about him days prior, likely referring to a critical \u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2026/04/13/sam-altman-may-control-our-future-can-he-be-trusted\">\u003cem>New Yorker\u003c/em>\u003c/a> piece about the head of OpenAI, which was published earlier this month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11999100\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11999100\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240806-JacoboArraignment-22-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240806-JacoboArraignment-22-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240806-JacoboArraignment-22-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240806-JacoboArraignment-22-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240806-JacoboArraignment-22-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240806-JacoboArraignment-22-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240806-JacoboArraignment-22-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The door for Superior Court Criminal Division Department 10 at the Hall of Justice in San Francisco on Aug. 6, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Someone said to me yesterday they thought it was coming at a time of great anxiety about AI and that it made things more dangerous for me. I brushed it aside,” Altman wrote. “Now I am awake in the middle of the night and pissed, and thinking that I have underestimated the power of words and narratives.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Sunday, a second incident appeared to target Altman’s home, the \u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2026/04/12/sam-altman-s-home-targeted-second-attack/\">\u003cem>San Francisco Standard \u003c/em>\u003c/a>reported. According to a police report obtained by the publication, two people detained for negligent discharge of a firearm early Sunday fired shots outside of Altman’s home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The District Attorney’s office said it does not have any evidence that the incidents are related.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Moreno-Gama is currently in state custody and is expected to appear in district court on Tuesday afternoon. A federal court date has not yet been set. The charges announced Monday came hours after the FBI conducted a search at his home in Texas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The two people detained early Sunday also remained in custody as of Monday afternoon, according to the city’s jail logs. No court date has been set.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Federal and local authorities charged a Texas man with the attempted murder of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a> CEO Sam Altman on Monday after attacks at his \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> home and company headquarters last week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Daniel Moreno-Gama, 20, of Spring, Texas, faces two counts of attempted murder, arson and attempted arson, among other charges, from the San Francisco District Attorney’s office, as well as charges brought by the U.S. Attorney’s office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Today’s charges outline a dangerous and deliberate plan to bring violence into San Francisco,” said Matt Cobo, the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s acting special agent in charge of San Francisco. “The defendant is alleged to have traveled across state lines with the intent to go target an individual and a major technology company. This was not spontaneous. This was planned, targeted, and extremely serious.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Moreno-Gama was arrested Friday in San Francisco after allegedly throwing the improvised explosive at Altman’s residence in Russian Hill. He fled on foot and was arrested shortly after, outside of OpenAI’s Mission Bay headquarters. There, he attempted to break the glass doors of the building with a chair, and said that he had come to burn down the building and kill anyone inside, according to the U.S. Department of Justice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the complaint, when arrested, Moreno-Gama was carrying additional incendiary devices, a jug of kerosene, a lighter, and a document titled “Your Last Warning,” a manifesto, which identified himself as the author.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The document allegedly “advocated against AI and for the killing and commission of other crimes against CEOs of AI companies and their investors,” the DOJ said in a press release. It included the names and addresses believed to belong to some of the sector’s prominent CEOs and investors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079756\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079756\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SamAltmanHomeGetty1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SamAltmanHomeGetty1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SamAltmanHomeGetty1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/SamAltmanHomeGetty1-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Security cameras are seen at an entrance to the home of Sam Altman on Lombard Street on Friday, April 10, 2026, in San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Lea Suzuki/San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The document also included an admission to attempting to kill Altman, and ended with a letter addressed to the CEO, which said: “If by some miracle you love, then I would take this as a sign from the divine to redeem yourself.” In the document, Moreno-Gama also urged others to join his effort.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cobo said the FBI and SFPD have gone through the document thoroughly, and made contact with people referenced in it. He said they did not assess that there was any specific threat toward the named people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We interpret this behavior for just what it is, an attempt on Mr. Altman’s life,” District Attorney Brooke Jenkins said at a press conference on Monday. “It’s an extreme danger to those around him and those who work for his company. My office will prosecute this case to the fullest extent of the law.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Moreno-Gama faces a slew of charges in San Francisco Superior Court in addition to attempted murder and arson, including possession of a destructive device, exploding or igniting a destructive device with the intent to murder. If found guilty, Moreno-Gama could face 19 years to life in prison, Jenkins said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the federal level, Moreno-Gama is charged with attempted damage and destruction of property by means of explosives and possession of an unregistered firearm.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp> U.S. Attorney Craig Missakian said the DOJ’s investigation is still developing, but if evidence shows Moreno-Gama attempted to execute the attacks to sway public policy, or coerce government or public officials, it could be treated as an act of domestic terrorism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is okay to disagree, it is okay to debate, this is a country that was built on both,” Missakian said. “But remember, the truth is often found in that very narrow space where two competing ideas come together and clash, and we will not tolerate any attempt to change the way Americans live and work or think through fear or violence.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the months leading up to Friday’s attack, a person writing under the \u003ca href=\"https://morenogama.substack.com/p/ai-existential-risk-is-real\">same name \u003c/a>as Moreno-Gama published a series of posts on Substack about the danger of artificial intelligence, calling it an existential threat, and referring to Altman as a pathological liar. The articles also include allegations of criminal conduct against Altman, for which the writer said, “he has faced zero consequences and is very likely to never face any, given his deep connections and ample resources.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This should be a moment where our nation reflects on the often incendiary rhetoric that is being used in discussions about artificial intelligence and its future impact on our society,” Jenkins said. “In no way should we have hit the point where a man could have lost his life over differences of opinion and concerns.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Following Friday’s incident, Altman published a \u003ca href=\"https://blog.samaltman.com/2279512\">photograph \u003c/a>of his daughter and husband on his online blog, alluding to a possible connection between the growing fear of AI and the attack.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I am sharing a photo in the hopes that it might dissuade the next person from throwing a Molotov cocktail at our house, no matter what they think about me,” he wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Altman went on to reference an “incendiary” article published about him days prior, likely referring to a critical \u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2026/04/13/sam-altman-may-control-our-future-can-he-be-trusted\">\u003cem>New Yorker\u003c/em>\u003c/a> piece about the head of OpenAI, which was published earlier this month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11999100\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11999100\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240806-JacoboArraignment-22-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240806-JacoboArraignment-22-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240806-JacoboArraignment-22-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240806-JacoboArraignment-22-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240806-JacoboArraignment-22-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240806-JacoboArraignment-22-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240806-JacoboArraignment-22-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The door for Superior Court Criminal Division Department 10 at the Hall of Justice in San Francisco on Aug. 6, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Someone said to me yesterday they thought it was coming at a time of great anxiety about AI and that it made things more dangerous for me. I brushed it aside,” Altman wrote. “Now I am awake in the middle of the night and pissed, and thinking that I have underestimated the power of words and narratives.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Sunday, a second incident appeared to target Altman’s home, the \u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2026/04/12/sam-altman-s-home-targeted-second-attack/\">\u003cem>San Francisco Standard \u003c/em>\u003c/a>reported. According to a police report obtained by the publication, two people detained for negligent discharge of a firearm early Sunday fired shots outside of Altman’s home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The District Attorney’s office said it does not have any evidence that the incidents are related.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Moreno-Gama is currently in state custody and is expected to appear in district court on Tuesday afternoon. A federal court date has not yet been set. The charges announced Monday came hours after the FBI conducted a search at his home in Texas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The two people detained early Sunday also remained in custody as of Monday afternoon, according to the city’s jail logs. No court date has been set.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "stanford-study-ai-experts-are-optimistic-about-ai-the-rest-of-us-not-so-much",
"title": "Stanford Study: AI Experts Are Optimistic About AI. The Rest of Us … Not So Much",
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"headTitle": "Stanford Study: AI Experts Are Optimistic About AI. The Rest of Us … Not So Much | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>For nine years now, the \u003ca href=\"https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2026-ai-index-report\">AI Index Report\u003c/a> from the Stanford Institute for Human-Centered AI (HAI) has combed through data from across academia, industry and government to produce an annual snapshot of where artificial intelligence stands, and suggest where it’s heading.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The report covers the biggest technical advances, investments, trends in education, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12078982/google-updates-suicide-self-harm-safeguards-in-gemini-as-ai-lawsuits-mount\">health\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12076862/scott-wiener-and-garry-tan-team-up-to-tackle-big-techs-anti-competitive-behavior\">legislation \u003c/a>and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063587/ai-boom-leads-to-increased-concerns-of-environmental-impacts-of-data-centers\">the environment\u003c/a>, offering an empirical foundation for understanding AI’s rapid evolution and real-world adoption.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2026-ai-index-report\">2026 report\u003c/a> also details a growing tension, especially among Americans: expert excitement about what AI is capable of, and public fear for what it all means for their \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034490/ai-companions-seductive-risk-teens-senators-want-more-guardrails\">personal lives\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12076726/ai-is-changing-tech-work-heres-why-it-matters-for-the-rest-of-us\">jobs\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Are we well-positioned as a society to manage its direction, absorb its disruption and ultimately decide how we’re going to leverage this technology?” said Sha Sajadieh, who leads the AI Index for Stanford’s Institute for Human-Centered Artificial Intelligence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She added that the general public needs to channel their fear of the unknown, not to mention news of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11939910/a-layoff-spree-at-bay-area-tech-companies\">mass layoffs\u003c/a> in one industry after another, and move past reactivity to take advantage of the best AI has to offer. “Part of that is up-skilling at every age, in every way. There’s a lot of opportunity, but the onus is on us to fully realize the opportunity this technology presents us, and understand it.”[aside postID=news_12079267 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Hegseth-Side-by-Side-c.jpg']The survey is considered a must-read for policymakers in academia, business and politics. But as transparency from top AI developers declines, Sajadieh acknowledged it’s harder to know what needs to be addressed, especially with regulation or legislation, “for us to understand what risks we want to mitigate first as a society.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Enthusiasm and evangelism around AI have relegated considerations about how to responsibly manage its applications and use cases to the back burner,” Stephen Baiter, executive director of the East Bay Economic Development Alliance, wrote KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He observed that jobs tied to the physical world, especially in areas like construction, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12076753/northern-california-kaiser-therapists-hold-1-day-strike-over-ai-patient-care-concerns\">health care\u003c/a>, and public safety, seem to be at the least risk of disruption. But he has concerns beyond AI’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12076726/ai-is-changing-tech-work-heres-why-it-matters-for-the-rest-of-us\">immediate impacts on labor\u003c/a> markets. “There has been strong deference toward delaying or ignoring sensitive core human rights and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12026604/bay-areas-ai-boom-fuels-a-dirty-energy-dilemma/\">quality of life issues\u003c/a> related to individual/personal privacy, safety, and security.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Other critics of AI go further. “The ones who don’t see eye to eye with the leading experts and the general public are the companies themselves, which are engaged in a race to replace humans as quickly as possible,” e-mailed Chase Hardin, spokesman for the non-profit The Future of Life Institute, which is dedicated to reducing global catastrophic and existential risks from transformative technologies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hardin said that public polling is unambiguously negative about the risks of AI. “We can argue about why that is, but the public is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12076608/what-\">deeply skeptical\u003c/a> of the companies themselves, the technology, and it is incredibly anxious about what it means for their children.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Top takeaways of the AI Index Report include:\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong style=\"font-size: 16px\">1. \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>AI experts and the public have very different perspectives on the technology’s future.\u003c/strong> Assessing AI’s impact on jobs, 73% of U.S. AI experts said the technology’s impacts on jobs are positive, compared with only 23% of the public, a 50 percentage-point gap. Similar divides emerge regarding the economy and medical care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Globally, trust in governments to regulate AI varies. Among surveyed countries, the United States reported the lowest level of trust in its own government to regulate AI, at 31%. Globally, the EU is trusted more than the United States or China to regulate AI effectively.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>2. AI capability is accelerating and reaching more people than ever.\u003c/strong> Private companies built more than 9 in 10 of the world’s most powerful AI models in 2025, and some of those models are now beating human experts on PhD-level science and advanced math exams.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>3. Productivity gains from AI are appearing in many of the same fields where entry-level employment is starting to decline. \u003c/strong>Studies show productivity gains of 14% to 26% in customer support and software development, with weaker or negative effects in tasks requiring more judgment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In software development, where AI’s measured productivity gains are clearest, U.S. developers ages 22 to 25 saw employment fall nearly 20% from 2024, even as the headcount for older developers continues to grow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>4. Students are using AI, but their educational institutions are still playing catch-up. \u003c/strong>Four out of five U.S. high school and college students now \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12053799/not-even-ai-can-save-me-students-teachers-on-ai-this-school-year\">use AI for schoolwork\u003c/a>, but only half of middle and high schools have AI policies in place, and just 6% of teachers say those policies are clear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063947\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12063947 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/CaregiverGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/CaregiverGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/CaregiverGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/CaregiverGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A review of more than 500 clinical AI studies found nearly half relied on exam-style questions instead of real patient data, while just 5% used actual clinical data. \u003ccite>(LPETTET via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>5. AI is transforming clinical health care, but rigorous evidence remains limited. \u003c/strong>AI tools that automatically generate clinical notes from patient visits saw substantial adoption in 2025. Across multiple hospital systems, physicians reported up to 83% less time spent writing notes and significant reductions in burnout.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Beyond certain tools, however, the evidence base for clinical AI remains thin. A review of more than 500 clinical AI studies found that nearly half relied on exam-style questions rather than real patient data, with only 5% using real clinical data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>6. AI’s environmental footprint is expanding alongside its capabilities.\u003c/strong> Training a single AI model last year generated roughly as much carbon as 16,000 round-trip flights from San Francisco to New York. Researchers estimate that running just one widely-used AI model, GPT-4o, may consume enough water annually to meet the drinking needs of every person in Los Angeles and San Francisco combined.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>7. The United States leads the world in AI investment, but its ability to attract global talent is declining.\u003c/strong> U.S. private AI investment reached $285.9 billion in 2025, more than 23 times the $12.4 billion invested in China — though looking at just private investment figures likely understates China’s total AI spending, given its government guidance funds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The U.S. also led in entrepreneurial activity with 1,953 newly funded AI companies in 2025, more than 10 times the next closest country, which was the U.K. However, the number of AI researchers and developers moving to the U.S. has dropped 89% since 2017, with an 80% decline in the last year alone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>8. The U.S.-China AI model performance gap has effectively closed. \u003c/strong>U.S. and Chinese models have traded the lead multiple times since early 2025.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The U.S. still builds more of the world’s most powerful AI models, but China is publishing more research, filing more patents, and installing more robots in its factories. South Korea stands out for its innovation density, leading the world in AI patents per capita.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>For nine years now, the \u003ca href=\"https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2026-ai-index-report\">AI Index Report\u003c/a> from the Stanford Institute for Human-Centered AI (HAI) has combed through data from across academia, industry and government to produce an annual snapshot of where artificial intelligence stands, and suggest where it’s heading.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The report covers the biggest technical advances, investments, trends in education, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12078982/google-updates-suicide-self-harm-safeguards-in-gemini-as-ai-lawsuits-mount\">health\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12076862/scott-wiener-and-garry-tan-team-up-to-tackle-big-techs-anti-competitive-behavior\">legislation \u003c/a>and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063587/ai-boom-leads-to-increased-concerns-of-environmental-impacts-of-data-centers\">the environment\u003c/a>, offering an empirical foundation for understanding AI’s rapid evolution and real-world adoption.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2026-ai-index-report\">2026 report\u003c/a> also details a growing tension, especially among Americans: expert excitement about what AI is capable of, and public fear for what it all means for their \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034490/ai-companions-seductive-risk-teens-senators-want-more-guardrails\">personal lives\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12076726/ai-is-changing-tech-work-heres-why-it-matters-for-the-rest-of-us\">jobs\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Are we well-positioned as a society to manage its direction, absorb its disruption and ultimately decide how we’re going to leverage this technology?” said Sha Sajadieh, who leads the AI Index for Stanford’s Institute for Human-Centered Artificial Intelligence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She added that the general public needs to channel their fear of the unknown, not to mention news of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11939910/a-layoff-spree-at-bay-area-tech-companies\">mass layoffs\u003c/a> in one industry after another, and move past reactivity to take advantage of the best AI has to offer. “Part of that is up-skilling at every age, in every way. There’s a lot of opportunity, but the onus is on us to fully realize the opportunity this technology presents us, and understand it.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>The survey is considered a must-read for policymakers in academia, business and politics. But as transparency from top AI developers declines, Sajadieh acknowledged it’s harder to know what needs to be addressed, especially with regulation or legislation, “for us to understand what risks we want to mitigate first as a society.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Enthusiasm and evangelism around AI have relegated considerations about how to responsibly manage its applications and use cases to the back burner,” Stephen Baiter, executive director of the East Bay Economic Development Alliance, wrote KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He observed that jobs tied to the physical world, especially in areas like construction, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12076753/northern-california-kaiser-therapists-hold-1-day-strike-over-ai-patient-care-concerns\">health care\u003c/a>, and public safety, seem to be at the least risk of disruption. But he has concerns beyond AI’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12076726/ai-is-changing-tech-work-heres-why-it-matters-for-the-rest-of-us\">immediate impacts on labor\u003c/a> markets. “There has been strong deference toward delaying or ignoring sensitive core human rights and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12026604/bay-areas-ai-boom-fuels-a-dirty-energy-dilemma/\">quality of life issues\u003c/a> related to individual/personal privacy, safety, and security.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Other critics of AI go further. “The ones who don’t see eye to eye with the leading experts and the general public are the companies themselves, which are engaged in a race to replace humans as quickly as possible,” e-mailed Chase Hardin, spokesman for the non-profit The Future of Life Institute, which is dedicated to reducing global catastrophic and existential risks from transformative technologies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hardin said that public polling is unambiguously negative about the risks of AI. “We can argue about why that is, but the public is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12076608/what-\">deeply skeptical\u003c/a> of the companies themselves, the technology, and it is incredibly anxious about what it means for their children.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Top takeaways of the AI Index Report include:\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong style=\"font-size: 16px\">1. \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>AI experts and the public have very different perspectives on the technology’s future.\u003c/strong> Assessing AI’s impact on jobs, 73% of U.S. AI experts said the technology’s impacts on jobs are positive, compared with only 23% of the public, a 50 percentage-point gap. Similar divides emerge regarding the economy and medical care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Globally, trust in governments to regulate AI varies. Among surveyed countries, the United States reported the lowest level of trust in its own government to regulate AI, at 31%. Globally, the EU is trusted more than the United States or China to regulate AI effectively.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>2. AI capability is accelerating and reaching more people than ever.\u003c/strong> Private companies built more than 9 in 10 of the world’s most powerful AI models in 2025, and some of those models are now beating human experts on PhD-level science and advanced math exams.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>3. Productivity gains from AI are appearing in many of the same fields where entry-level employment is starting to decline. \u003c/strong>Studies show productivity gains of 14% to 26% in customer support and software development, with weaker or negative effects in tasks requiring more judgment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In software development, where AI’s measured productivity gains are clearest, U.S. developers ages 22 to 25 saw employment fall nearly 20% from 2024, even as the headcount for older developers continues to grow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>4. Students are using AI, but their educational institutions are still playing catch-up. \u003c/strong>Four out of five U.S. high school and college students now \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12053799/not-even-ai-can-save-me-students-teachers-on-ai-this-school-year\">use AI for schoolwork\u003c/a>, but only half of middle and high schools have AI policies in place, and just 6% of teachers say those policies are clear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063947\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12063947 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/CaregiverGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/CaregiverGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/CaregiverGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/CaregiverGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A review of more than 500 clinical AI studies found nearly half relied on exam-style questions instead of real patient data, while just 5% used actual clinical data. \u003ccite>(LPETTET via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>5. AI is transforming clinical health care, but rigorous evidence remains limited. \u003c/strong>AI tools that automatically generate clinical notes from patient visits saw substantial adoption in 2025. Across multiple hospital systems, physicians reported up to 83% less time spent writing notes and significant reductions in burnout.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Beyond certain tools, however, the evidence base for clinical AI remains thin. A review of more than 500 clinical AI studies found that nearly half relied on exam-style questions rather than real patient data, with only 5% using real clinical data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>6. AI’s environmental footprint is expanding alongside its capabilities.\u003c/strong> Training a single AI model last year generated roughly as much carbon as 16,000 round-trip flights from San Francisco to New York. Researchers estimate that running just one widely-used AI model, GPT-4o, may consume enough water annually to meet the drinking needs of every person in Los Angeles and San Francisco combined.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>7. The United States leads the world in AI investment, but its ability to attract global talent is declining.\u003c/strong> U.S. private AI investment reached $285.9 billion in 2025, more than 23 times the $12.4 billion invested in China — though looking at just private investment figures likely understates China’s total AI spending, given its government guidance funds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The U.S. also led in entrepreneurial activity with 1,953 newly funded AI companies in 2025, more than 10 times the next closest country, which was the U.K. However, the number of AI researchers and developers moving to the U.S. has dropped 89% since 2017, with an 80% decline in the last year alone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>8. The U.S.-China AI model performance gap has effectively closed. \u003c/strong>U.S. and Chinese models have traded the lead multiple times since early 2025.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The U.S. still builds more of the world’s most powerful AI models, but China is publishing more research, filing more patents, and installing more robots in its factories. South Korea stands out for its innovation density, leading the world in AI patents per capita.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>A 20-year-old man was arrested Friday after throwing a Molotov cocktail at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a> CEO Sam Altman’s San Francisco home and threatening to burn down the company’s headquarters, according to police and the company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The man was arrested outside OpenAI’s headquarters in Mission Bay early Friday after threatening to burn down the building, according to the San Francisco Police Department. He is in custody pending charges, and his identity has not been released.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Early this morning, someone threw a Molotov cocktail at Sam Altman’s home and also made threats at our San Francisco headquarters,” OpenAI spokesperson Jamie Radice said. “We deeply appreciate how quickly SFPD responded and the support from the city in helping keep our employees safe. The individual is in custody, and we’re assisting law enforcement with their investigation.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Police responded around 4:12 a.m. Friday, to a fire investigation at Altman’s North Beach residence. They found that the Molotov cocktail, an improvised explosive, had caused the gate outside the home to catch fire, but no injuries have been reported, the department said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The man fled on foot, police said, while a physical description was broadcast to all officers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Less than an hour later, a man matching the same description turned up outside the company’s headquarters on the 1400 block of Third Street, threatening to burn down the building, according to police.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When officers arrived on scene, they recognized the male to be the same suspect from the earlier incident and immediately detained him,” SFPD said in a statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The department said an investigation into the incident is ongoing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a developing story, and it may be updated.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>A 20-year-old man was arrested Friday after throwing a Molotov cocktail at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a> CEO Sam Altman’s San Francisco home and threatening to burn down the company’s headquarters, according to police and the company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The man was arrested outside OpenAI’s headquarters in Mission Bay early Friday after threatening to burn down the building, according to the San Francisco Police Department. He is in custody pending charges, and his identity has not been released.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Early this morning, someone threw a Molotov cocktail at Sam Altman’s home and also made threats at our San Francisco headquarters,” OpenAI spokesperson Jamie Radice said. “We deeply appreciate how quickly SFPD responded and the support from the city in helping keep our employees safe. The individual is in custody, and we’re assisting law enforcement with their investigation.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "anthropics-bid-to-lift-supply-chain-risk-label-suffers-setback-in-u-s-appeals-court",
"title": "Anthropic’s Bid to Lift ‘Supply Chain Risk’ Label Suffers Setback in US Appeals Court",
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"content": "\u003cp>A federal appeals court in Washington on Wednesday\u003ca href=\"http://www.apple.com\"> denied\u003c/a> Anthropic’s\u003ca href=\"https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/72380208/01208838678/anthropic-pbc-v-united-states-department-of-war/\"> request for relief\u003c/a> from the Defense Department’s declaration that the company is a supply-chain risk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The ruling is the latest battle in the multi-front war the U.S. government and one of the country’s leading AI companies are waging with each other — even as they’re also reportedly working with each other in the war with Iran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A\u003ca href=\"https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.465515/gov.uscourts.cand.465515.113.0_1.pdf\"> separate court\u003c/a> in San Francisco\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/03/26/nx-s1-5762971/judge-temporarily-blocks-anthropic-ban\"> recently\u003c/a> blocked President Donald Trump’s broader ban on government use of Anthropic’s model, Claude.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>U.S. District Judge Rita F. Lin said the ban “looked like an attempt to \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/03/24/nx-s1-5759276/anthropic-pentagon-claude-preliminary-injunction-hearing\">cripple\u003c/a> Anthropic,” after the company went public about its dispute over the use of Claude by the military.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Nothing … supports the Orwellian notion that an American company may be branded a potential adversary and saboteur of the U.S. for expressing disagreement with the government,” Lin wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the three-judge panel in Washington wrote that “the equitable balance here cuts in favor of the government,” though it acknowledged Anthropic will continue to be excluded from new contracts and Pentagon systems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079282\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079282\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Salesforce Tower is seen reflected in windows of 500 Howard Street, where AI firm Anthropic subleased Slack’s office, in downtown San Francisco, California on Oct. 19, 2023. \u003ccite>(Loren Elliott for The Washington Post via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The appeals court said that granting a stay would “force the United States military to prolong its dealings with an unwanted vendor of critical AI services in the middle of a significant ongoing military conflict.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The court set oral arguments in the case for May 19.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The feud between Anthropic and the Trump administration publicly escalated in February. Following tense behind-the-scenes negotiations and an announcement from CEO Dario Amodei that he would not allow Claude to be used for autonomous weapons or to surveil American citizens, Defense Department officials responded with a series of punishments.[aside postID=news_12078982 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2264783645.jpg']Anthropic’s complaints lean heavily on statements by Pentagon officials on social media, including posts by \u003ca href=\"https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/116144552969293195/\">Trump\u003c/a>, Defense Secretary \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/SecWar/status/2027507717469049070\">Pete Hegseth\u003c/a> and others, as “evidence of ideological motivation,” as well as “arbitrary, capricious and an abuse of discretion.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trump \u003ca href=\"https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.465515/gov.uscourts.cand.465515.1.1_4.pdf\">called\u003c/a> Anthropic “a radical left, woke company” populated by “leftwing nut jobs,” and Hegseth attacked the company as arrogant and duplicitous. Anthropic’s lawyers argued these posts expose the ideological, rather than national security, motivation behind the government’s actions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That said, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/iran-strikes-2026/card/u-s-strikes-in-middle-east-use-anthropic-hours-after-trump-ban-ozNO0iClZpfpL7K7ElJ2?mod=article_inline\">\u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em>\u003c/a> reported that the Defense Department continues to use Claude in the war in Iran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re grateful the court recognized these issues need to be resolved quickly and remain confident the courts will ultimately agree that these supply chain designations were unlawful,” an Anthropic spokesperson wrote KQED following the appeals court decision in Washington on Wednesday. “While this case was necessary to protect Anthropic, our customers, and our partners, our focus remains on working productively with the government to ensure all Americans benefit from safe, reliable AI.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Noted AI scientist and skeptic Gary Marcus said he favored Anthropic’s chances, and that the government’s supply chain risk designation “made no sense.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079283\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079283\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2268688942.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2268688942.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2268688942-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2268688942-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Anthropic logo is displayed on a smartphone screen on March 31, 2026. \u003ccite>(Jonathan Raa/NurPhoto)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“At the moment Anthropic seems to have something of a technical lead, and it would just be cutting off DoD’s nose to spite their face to exclude them. Especially in wartime, that’s just ridiculous,” he told KQED by email.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In recent weeks, \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnbc.com/2025/06/16/openai-wins-200-million-us-defense-contract.html\">OpenAI\u003c/a> swooped in to claim the $200 million contract Anthropic was negotiating for with the Defense Department. But the deal likely cost Anthropic’s rival more than that in subscriber defections alone. A \u003ca href=\"https://quitgpt.org/\">website \u003c/a>where people pledged to cancel their subscriptions claims OpenAI lost 1.5 million paying users, as the company faces an estimated $14 billion loss in operational costs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The DoD contract is small potatoes in itself,” UC Berkeley AI pioneer Stuart Russell wrote. The real play, he argued, is indispensability. “I think the intent was to make OpenAI indispensable to the government, raising the likelihood of a bailout (a possibility suggested by OpenAI last year).”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The “supply chain risk” designation for Anthropic? “I assume it will eventually be rescinded,” Russell said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>A federal appeals court in Washington on Wednesday\u003ca href=\"http://www.apple.com\"> denied\u003c/a> Anthropic’s\u003ca href=\"https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/72380208/01208838678/anthropic-pbc-v-united-states-department-of-war/\"> request for relief\u003c/a> from the Defense Department’s declaration that the company is a supply-chain risk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The ruling is the latest battle in the multi-front war the U.S. government and one of the country’s leading AI companies are waging with each other — even as they’re also reportedly working with each other in the war with Iran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A\u003ca href=\"https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.465515/gov.uscourts.cand.465515.113.0_1.pdf\"> separate court\u003c/a> in San Francisco\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/03/26/nx-s1-5762971/judge-temporarily-blocks-anthropic-ban\"> recently\u003c/a> blocked President Donald Trump’s broader ban on government use of Anthropic’s model, Claude.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>U.S. District Judge Rita F. Lin said the ban “looked like an attempt to \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/03/24/nx-s1-5759276/anthropic-pentagon-claude-preliminary-injunction-hearing\">cripple\u003c/a> Anthropic,” after the company went public about its dispute over the use of Claude by the military.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Nothing … supports the Orwellian notion that an American company may be branded a potential adversary and saboteur of the U.S. for expressing disagreement with the government,” Lin wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the three-judge panel in Washington wrote that “the equitable balance here cuts in favor of the government,” though it acknowledged Anthropic will continue to be excluded from new contracts and Pentagon systems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079282\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079282\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Salesforce Tower is seen reflected in windows of 500 Howard Street, where AI firm Anthropic subleased Slack’s office, in downtown San Francisco, California on Oct. 19, 2023. \u003ccite>(Loren Elliott for The Washington Post via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The appeals court said that granting a stay would “force the United States military to prolong its dealings with an unwanted vendor of critical AI services in the middle of a significant ongoing military conflict.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The court set oral arguments in the case for May 19.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The feud between Anthropic and the Trump administration publicly escalated in February. Following tense behind-the-scenes negotiations and an announcement from CEO Dario Amodei that he would not allow Claude to be used for autonomous weapons or to surveil American citizens, Defense Department officials responded with a series of punishments.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Anthropic’s complaints lean heavily on statements by Pentagon officials on social media, including posts by \u003ca href=\"https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/116144552969293195/\">Trump\u003c/a>, Defense Secretary \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/SecWar/status/2027507717469049070\">Pete Hegseth\u003c/a> and others, as “evidence of ideological motivation,” as well as “arbitrary, capricious and an abuse of discretion.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trump \u003ca href=\"https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.465515/gov.uscourts.cand.465515.1.1_4.pdf\">called\u003c/a> Anthropic “a radical left, woke company” populated by “leftwing nut jobs,” and Hegseth attacked the company as arrogant and duplicitous. Anthropic’s lawyers argued these posts expose the ideological, rather than national security, motivation behind the government’s actions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That said, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/iran-strikes-2026/card/u-s-strikes-in-middle-east-use-anthropic-hours-after-trump-ban-ozNO0iClZpfpL7K7ElJ2?mod=article_inline\">\u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em>\u003c/a> reported that the Defense Department continues to use Claude in the war in Iran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re grateful the court recognized these issues need to be resolved quickly and remain confident the courts will ultimately agree that these supply chain designations were unlawful,” an Anthropic spokesperson wrote KQED following the appeals court decision in Washington on Wednesday. “While this case was necessary to protect Anthropic, our customers, and our partners, our focus remains on working productively with the government to ensure all Americans benefit from safe, reliable AI.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Noted AI scientist and skeptic Gary Marcus said he favored Anthropic’s chances, and that the government’s supply chain risk designation “made no sense.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079283\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079283\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2268688942.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2268688942.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2268688942-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2268688942-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Anthropic logo is displayed on a smartphone screen on March 31, 2026. \u003ccite>(Jonathan Raa/NurPhoto)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“At the moment Anthropic seems to have something of a technical lead, and it would just be cutting off DoD’s nose to spite their face to exclude them. Especially in wartime, that’s just ridiculous,” he told KQED by email.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In recent weeks, \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnbc.com/2025/06/16/openai-wins-200-million-us-defense-contract.html\">OpenAI\u003c/a> swooped in to claim the $200 million contract Anthropic was negotiating for with the Defense Department. But the deal likely cost Anthropic’s rival more than that in subscriber defections alone. A \u003ca href=\"https://quitgpt.org/\">website \u003c/a>where people pledged to cancel their subscriptions claims OpenAI lost 1.5 million paying users, as the company faces an estimated $14 billion loss in operational costs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The DoD contract is small potatoes in itself,” UC Berkeley AI pioneer Stuart Russell wrote. The real play, he argued, is indispensability. “I think the intent was to make OpenAI indispensable to the government, raising the likelihood of a bailout (a possibility suggested by OpenAI last year).”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The “supply chain risk” designation for Anthropic? “I assume it will eventually be rescinded,” Russell said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "the-secret-lives-of-mormon-momfluencers",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Only 2% of Americans identify as members of the Church of Latter-day Saints — and yet a striking number of American social media influencers are Mormon. Why? The answer lies in a mix of religious doctrine, early internet adoption, and some surprising financial incentives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, author and journalist Fortesa Latifi returns to the show to unpack her research for her new book, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, Follow, Subscribe: Influencer Kids and the Cost of a Childhood Online\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. She breaks down the hidden industry behind Mormon “momfluencers,” how these creators both uphold and push against a patriarchal system, and why the trad wife fantasy can be damaging far beyond their audience. Plus, she and Morgan tackle the question hanging over reality TV fans everywhere: “Will MomTok survive this?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4522289126\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.fortesalatifi.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fortesa Latifi\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, journalist and author of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, Follow, Subscribe: Influencer Kids and the Cost of a Childhood Online.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Like-Follow-Subscribe/Fortesa-Latifi/9781668080504\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, Follow, Subscribe: Influencer Kids and the Cost of a Childhood Online\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Fortesa Latifi, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Simon & Schuster \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://whatsthevibe.substack.com/p/the-mormon-church-pays-its-influencers\">the Mormon Church pays its influencers\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Fortesa Latifi, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>What’s The Vibe\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.thecut.com/article/mormon-momtok-swingers-drama-explained.html\">A Refresher on the Mormon MomTok Drama\u003c/a> — Danielle Cohen, Olivia Truffaut-Wong, and Julia Reinstein,\u003c/span> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>The Cut \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/taylor-frankie-paul-bachelorette-canceled-controversy\">‘The Bachelorette’ Cast Taylor Frankie Paul For The Mess. They Got It. So, Who’s To Blame?\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Katherine Singh, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Refinery 29 \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.marieclaire.com/culture/tv-shows/the-secret-lives-of-mormon-wives-season-2-review/\">‘The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives’ Shows the Trad Wife Reality \u003c/a> — Quinci LeGardye\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Marie Claire \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2025/08/02/how-lds-church-works-with-pays/\">Does the LDS Church pay influencers? Well, actually, yes.\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Dylan Eubank, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>The Salt Lake Tribune\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.thetimes.com/magazines/the-sunday-times-magazine/article/meet-the-queen-of-the-trad-wives-and-her-eight-children-plfr50cgk\">Meet the queen of the ‘trad wives’ (and her eight children)\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Megan Agnew, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>The Times \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2024/12/17/nx-s1-5206673/tradwives-have-taken-over-tiktok-now-ex-tradwives-want-their-moment\">Tradwife life isn’t as good as it looks on TikTok — just ask former tradwives\u003c/a> — Isabella Gomez Sarmiento, \u003ci>NPR\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey it’s Morgan. We just celebrated the show’s first birthday. That’s right Close All Tabs is a pisces. Wanna celebrate with us? It would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends about us, too! Ok, let’s get to the episode. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Have you been keeping up with the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, have I, yes.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fortesa Latifi is a journalist who covers the thorny world of child influencers, family vlogs, and parenting content. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve seen my bylines in Rolling Stone, The New York Times, Teen Vogue, and many more. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fortesa was on Close All Tabs last year in our episode, Children of the Vlog. She just published a book called Like, Follow, Subscribe: Influencer Kids, and the Cost of a Childhood Online. And like me, Fortesa also loves watching the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Promo for Secret Lives of Mormon Wives]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Come ye saints and come ye sinners! Ahhh…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My mom is visiting right now and she’s just like, are you seriously watching this? And I’m like, mom, shh. It’s like what my sister calls TV Xanax, like it just is like, just quiets the mind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know, I’m like, this is my temporary lobotomy for the night. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">100 percent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I put it on and I don’t think for like 40 minutes. It’s beautiful. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a blessed experience. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so for the uninitiated, The Secret Lives Of Mormon Wives is a reality TV show on Hulu, which follows a group of Utah-based mom influencers known as “MomTok.” They’re infamous for the so-called Mormon swinging scandal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Youtube User Spill Sesh] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You guys buckle up because we are talking about “Mom Tok.”. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from TikTok] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now in both her confessionals and conversations with the other wives, Miranda denied doing anything other than kissing at these swinging parties. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Youtube User Spill Sesh] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The drama is insane. It played out all online and now they’ve landed themselves a reality show for just how dramatic they have been and of course there’s more drama now. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To be clear, when we say “momfluencers”, we’re talking about this category of creators whose content revolves around motherhood and family. Like the ones who post the elaborate meals that they pack their kids for lunch, or post about the baby supplies that you, a new mom, actually need, which may or may not be sponsored. The name “MomTok” refers to a group of momfluencers from the show, The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. Think of it as a friend group, well really, frenemy group. Many of them had started out on TikTok, making videos about their lives as stay-at-home mothers. Since then, they’ve built massive followings online and leverage that to launch their own businesses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives] J\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">en: I’m currently the breadwinner in my relationship. I’m providing for my kids, my husband. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jessi: Being known as a successful businesswoman means everything to me. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mayci: We’re just powerful women trying to change the stigma of gender roles in the Mormon culture. And I’m a bad b*tch. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m talking a prenatal supplement brand, a hair extension salon empire, a Broadway debut, brand deals worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, and one of them was supposed to be the next Bachelorette, and that’s been a whole thing. What I’m getting to is that these women are girl bosses, ambitious, entrepreneurial hustlers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jen: My goal was really just to be able to provide for my family. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mayci, I need you to twerk your ass off! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the show, they joke about being tradwives, the archetype of a homemaker who embraces traditional gender roles and doesn’t bother herself with affairs outside of her domestic sphere. But they’re upfront about the fact that they aren’t really tradwives. However, there is a faction of influencers who portray themselves as ideal, conservative, religious homemakers, while also running massive businesses. This is the tradwife girlboss. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, it’s so fascinating because the entire idea of a tradwife is predicated upon a woman staying at home, taking care of her babies, taking care of our house and her husband, and not working outside the house. But it’s a complete contradiction because the tradwives that we know about are all girl bosses. Like you said, I mean, some of them have multimillion dollar empires. So if I think about like a true tradwife, we would never hear about because she’s doing her work quietly and on her own. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We are not getting that deep into the current drama with mom talk and the secret lives of Mormon wives. Honestly, we need like another 15 episodes just to cover all of that. Today we’re digging into the industry of momfluencers, the women whose content revolves around parenting and family and their children. Not all creators who make this kind of content are religious, and not all of them identify as tradwives. But here’s something interesting. A lot of mom flensers are Mormon. We’re going to get into why that is and unpack how the Mormon church played a role in carving out an entire genre of content. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ready? This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open our first tab. Why are so many momfluencers Mormon? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Only 2% of Americans identify as from the Church of Latter-day Saints, which is colloquially called Mormons, but they are so overrepresented in influencer culture. Like almost all of the top mom influencers and family vloggers are Mormon or Mormon adjacent. And it’s just like, how did this happen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To answer that question, we need to go back to 2007. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was the commencement speech given at Brigham Young University, Hawaii, in which an elder of the church told the Mormons who were listening, please use the internet to your advantage basically. Like, use it to blog, use it share your beautiful life, use it to share positive things about the church. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Elder Ballard in commencement speech] \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as you graduate from this wonderful university, may I ask you to join the conversation by participating on the internet, particularly the new media, to share the gospel and explain in simple, clear terms the message of the restoration. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Elder M. Russell Ballard speaking to graduates at Brigham Young University almost 20 years ago. Let’s lay out some historical context for this. So, back in the 1800s, this guy, Joseph Smith, had a revelation and said that an angel told him to dig up a set of golden plates. These plates, according to Joseph Smith were engraved with a kind of companion text to the existing Christian Bible and contained guidance for establishing a new church. In 1830, Joseph Smith published what he said was a translation of the Golden Plates and called it the Book of Mormon, basically establishing the Mormon religion. He gained a following and started converting people. Local communities were not thrilled. The Mormon theology was considered blasphemous and they also practiced polygamy, a big no-no. They were seen as un-American and chased west to what is now Utah. The Mormon Church eventually denounced polygamy, but still faced a generational PR crisis. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were so maligned for so many years by Americans and they were considered not even to be Christian and barely to be American. And so perfection became a doctrine of the Mormon church because once they did away with polygamy, they basically swung kind of in the other direction where they were like, we have to have the most perfect families on earth so that people can’t malign us anymore as un-American and not Christian. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The church encouraged Mormons to become the perfect, all-American, heterosexual, monogamous nuclear family unit, and not just live it, but also be seen living it, and share their faith while they’re at it. A century and a half later, the internet turned out to be the perfect medium for broadcasting both family and faith. Fortesa, said the church quickly realized how effective the internet could be for proselytizing. I mean, Elder Ballard speaking to new grads? That was in 2007. YouTube was brand new. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Elder Ballard in commencement speech] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can start a blog in minutes and begin sharing what you know to be true.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it seems like Mormons above any other religion in the U.S., or really any other subculture in the US, really took to heart the idea of the early internet as a connector. And so many early mom bloggers were Mormon. I mean, when you think about early mom bloggers, you think of about Natalie Jean Lovin and people like that, and they were Mormon, or you think about Amber Fillerup Clark, also Mormon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why were Mormon women so effective as like the early proto-influencer? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there are several reasons. One is that in Mormon culture, you usually get married young and you have a lot of babies, both of which are really good for the algorithm. The algorithm loves young mothers and it loves tons of babies. Another thing is that Mormons from a very young age, especially Mormon women, are taught to keep a record. So it’s actually part of their scripture is to keep a record of their lives and to do this kind of intense journaling practice. Like scrapbooking came from Mormons, which is wild. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I know. It’s crazy. When I looked into it, I was like, wait, this makes so much sense. But they’re taught to keep these intricate records and to do beautiful scrapbooks and like what is influencing if not a journal and a scrapbook. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another reason is that beauty is highly prized in Mormon culture. So making yourself beautiful, being perceived as beautiful is considered to be godly. And so it’s really interesting because in other religions, vanity is a sin. Right? And I don’t think that the Mormons would say that they’re vain, but they do consider beauty to be godly. On top of beauty being considered godly, prosperity is considered godly, and so they have this thing called the prosperity doctrine, Which is basically the more godly and the more devoted you are to your faith, the more money you’re going to make. And so making money in that way is considered almost holy. And so when you take all these factors together, it’s like, duh. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s like the formula for the perfect influencer. So, Mormon influencers have used content creation as a means of proselytizing. Like that elder told BYU grads, use the new media to share the gospel. Was it effective? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think so, I mean, I think it’s interesting because many Mormons in their proselytizing online, it’s not explicit, right? Like they’re not getting on and saying, go read the Book of Mormon or go join the church. But what they are doing is they’re showing their perfect, beautiful families, their perfect beautiful lives, and then you know they’re Mormon and so you’re like, oh, well, there’s a connection between the Mormonism and the perfection. Right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fortessa interviewed one former child influencer who grew up in a Mormon vlogging family. And they told her that during their family’s run as popular YouTubers, at least 50 families joined the church and cited their family as the reason why. This strategy was clearly effective and the Mormon church was invested, literally. More on that after the break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome back. So as Mormon family influencers spread across the internet, what role did the church play in all of this? Time to open a new tab. The Mormon Influencer Industrial Complex. While working on her book, Fortesla went deep into researching the Church of Latter-day Saints and its outreach strategy. And she uncovered a major detail: The church was paying influencers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I had for a long time wondered why so many Mormons are influencers. And it’s like the church, which is the richest church on earth (it’s worth hundreds of billions of dollars, the Mormon church) they actually, specifically, give resources and brand deals and help with sponsorships with their influencers. And there’s like this thing where if you’re a big enough Mormon influencer, you’re invited to this like special influencer dinner and they all kind of network and figure things out together. It’s hard to say exactly when it started, but I would say once they saw the power of those early mom bloggers, it was clear that they could have a hand in it, and it worked. I mean, look, like you think of Nara Smith. I don’t know if she still considers herself Mormon, but her husband was raised Mormon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it is so wild. Can you walk us through the process of getting sponsored by the church? Like how do they pick the influencers to sponsor? How much do they pay? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so it’s really interesting because one of the influencers who confirmed this to me, her name is Shannon Bird and she was one of the original mom bloggers and now she’s on Instagram, but she really had her heyday in mom blogging. And she said that the church just reached out to her and they said, we love your work. We want to have a hand in it. And they said how much is your rate for a post? And in my book, she tells me, “You know, I felt weird like charging my church a rate,” you know? So her normal rate for a post was like eight to ten thousand dollars for like a static post. But she was like, this is my church, like, that feels really weird and so she, I think she charged them like a thousand dollars.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But then at one point, the church accidentally copied her on an email that listed what other influencers were being paid. I know, I know. And she saw that those influencers were charging their market rate. They were charging tens of thousands of dollars for a post. And it was really interesting because the posts weren’t like, come to church with us on Sunday, hashtag Mormon, hashtag LDS or whatever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like, it was like a little bit more subtle than that, where one of the sponsored posts that Shannon told me about was she was given rotisserie chickens and she was giving them out to unhoused people. And her blonde, perfect, beautiful children were like around her and it was basically like a photo of her with the supplies going out. And it was like, you know, give back this season or whatever but there was no explicit mention of Mormonism or the LDS church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so I asked Shannon, like, what do you think was in it for the church? And she’s like, okay, so this is what I think and then this is she said, so what I think is people saw her post and they’re like this beautiful blonde mother with all her beautiful blonde children going out and like, giving back and then they know she’s Mormon and so there’s that connection there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And Shannon told me, well, “One influencer can do a lot more when it comes to proselytizing than, you know, one missionary.” She’s like, “at my height, I had a million viewers of my blog a month. And so what makes more sense putting out missionaries and people don’t even open their door, or getting the beautiful blonde mother to give rotisserie chickens to unhoused people and people make the connection that she’s Mormon.” \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is so wild. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Shannon made such a good point. Like, she has a million viewers a month. What missionary can talk to a million people a month? Like, nobody. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So legally, influencers do have to disclose when they’re posts are sponsored, according to the FTC. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aren’t the Mormon influencers doing that? Do they have to? Does it still apply? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would think it would still apply. I don’t think they’re doing it because otherwise it would have been much clearer to people beforehand that the Mormon church was paying its influencers because no one has written about this before I had. So I don’t think that they’re following it to the letter of the law. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Regardless of the legal implications of these undisclosed church sponsorships, there’s a broader social shift going on here. Many of these women were raised to be wives and mothers. Momfluencing has opened doors that didn’t even exist for many women. Like we talked about earlier, they’re girl bossing. That’s huge, right? But is this a conscious act of reclaiming power? Time to open a new tab. Is mom-fluencing actually feminist? You made a really good point in your book about how, for a lot of these women, influencing and content creation is very lucrative, but it’s also one of the only ways that they’re allowed to exercise any kind of ambition or agency without threatening the patriarchy they live in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Within the Mormon culture, which is heavily patriarchal, women are not supposed to work outside the home. And I think that’s slowly changing, but generally they’re not really supposed to have ambitions beyond being a perfect wife and a perfect mother and having nine children, but looking like they haven’t even had one child. And so, I consider influencing to be like this genius kind of loophole because it’s a way for them to exercise their ambition within the confines of the patriarchy because their job is predicated upon being a perfect mother and a perfect wife. And so it’s like, well, I’m still doing everything perfectly. I’m just showing other people about it and making a ton of money. So it’s, like, who can really have a problem with that? And influencing is largely done within the home. And so it’s kind of the perfect career for women who are in this patriarchal society that says, ‘no, you don’t go out and make the money, I go out to make the the money.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fortessa pointed out this one scene in one of the earlier seasons of The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. They’re gathered in someone’s kitchen, complaining about their husbands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know you don’t want to make a TikTok, but we’ve got to pay the bills. I mean, who else is going to pay the bills, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who is currently like the breadwinner at home? I think all of us. Really? Yeah. We all are. Look at us. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s kind of genius, like I really, as a concept, I think it’s really fascinating and I think its really cool that they found a way to exercise their ambition and agency within the confines of a patriarchal society. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, I mean the new season is all about how Dad Tok, the like, husbands and boyfriends of Mormon wives are all like upset. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Boo, Dad Tok ! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m such a dad talk hater, but they’re all like, upset and they’re trying to find themselves because they’re like, they only know us as our wives’ husbands and not as our own people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dad Tok’s a lot funnier than Mom Tok, and we have our own place on social media. I think this is gonna be a great opportunity for Dad Tok. I think it shows that our wives don’t have a monopoly on social media. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s fascinating to see that they are in the position that Mormon women have been in for generations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But they’re not realizing that. Like, they’re not thinking like, oh, for the last five or seven years before Mom Tok, this is how my wife felt while I went out and made money and had a life outside of the home and she was home with our several young children. It’s fascinating to me, especially as a mom myself, to see men have a taste of what it’s like to be a mom and they’re like, ‘Oh, this sh*t sucks.’ Like, okay, let me be clear, being a mother is incredible. Being a mother and having the mental load and being in charge of everything is very difficult. And being the one who’s at home is very difficult. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, Mom Tok and Dad Tok drama aside, forging careers through social media has been so empowering for many women who grew up in conservative, religious communities. The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives is so interesting to me, because over the course of a few seasons, the women start to understand their own agency. They joke that the group is split between the saints and the sinners. The sinners are the ones who are no longer religious. While the saints still adhere to Mormon values and, more or less, the lifestyle. No drinking, no caffeine, and no divorce.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But throughout the show, even for the saints, you’re watching them deconstruct their upbringings in real time and actually get to exercise their own ambition. These are women who married and got pregnant as teenagers. If they did get to go to college, they were married and get pregnant right after graduation. They didn’t get to experience much of adulthood before they became mothers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And now, through the armies of followers they’ve built online, they’ve girlbossed their way into very successful careers. So they are making so much money. They are like the breadwinners of their family, which is so counter to the values that they preach. Which brings me to my next question. Is mommy blogging actually feminist? \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really grapple with this, because on one hand, taking the unseen and unpaid labor of motherhood and making it seen and paid, I do think is a feminist act. But then again, you’re making it paid on the backs of selling this false vision to other women, which I don’t think can be considered feminist. So it’s like that tweet that’s like, is MasterCard an ally? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">] yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is this pop singer your friend? Like, it’s like… I don’t know, I don’t think that selling this vision of perfect motherhood to other mothers can be considered feminist, I just don’t think it can. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For the last two decades, mom-fluencing has revolved around performing domestic labor. But let’s talk about what it means to portray the fantasy of motherhood. What’s going on behind the scenes? What don’t viewers see? Let’s open one last tab: the trad wife illusion. Time for a case study. We’re going to talk about Ballerina Farm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my gosh, Ballerina Farm. I could write a thesis on her. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You may have seen one of her videos on your feed before. She’s this beautiful blonde woman, usually wearing a linen apron over a gauzy, puff-sleeved dress. She posts these videos of her preparing a meal from scratch, usually no narration, just the sounds of her sprinkling salt on freshly churned butter while her kids run around off camera. Sometimes, a cow in the distance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip from Hannah Neeleman Instagram Account]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When we started to farm, I was swept up in the beauty of learning to make food from scratch. It makes sense why I soon fell in love with the idea of a family milk cow. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So her name is Hannah Neeleman. She is the foremost mom influencer, trad wife, blogger in the world. She lives in Utah. She’s Mormon. She’s married to a Mormon man who actually is the heir to the JetBlue fortune…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wild. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…which they don’t ever talk about, which is interesting because it’s very like, we pulled ourselves up by our bootstraps and started this farm. And it’s like, your father-in-law is a billionaire. So that’s really interesting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s especially tragic about her story is that she was a Mormon woman who did have a really promising career as a ballet dancer. Like, she was in Juilliard… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">at Juilliard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which is wild. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was a profile of her where they talk about how it’s called Ballerina Farm, but on the entire farm, there’s no dance studio. But I mean, that that Times profile was really wild because she’s like in her senior year at Julliard and her soon to be husband, like, meets her and decides like we’re going to get married. And then like, she’s flying back from New York to Utah and she’s flying JetBlue, which his dad owns. And so he pulls some strings, and gets the seat next to her on the flight. And basically, the way that I read it in the story was, like, she wanted to take her time and like, finish school, whatever, and then it turned out she was married and pregnant by graduation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But she just had her ninth child. She looks like she hasn’t had any children. She is very beautiful in like, a very toned down way. She looks she has that no makeup makeup look, and like, she’s always wearing, like, flowy dresses and like, making sourdough from scratch and making like, butter for sandwiches. She makes everything herself. But now it’s turned into this entire empire. Like there’s the Ballerina Farm store, there’s the Ballerina Farm brand. I mean, they make protein powder and hydration powder and sourdough starter and it’s a huge thing. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is the appeal of this kind of this genre of content right now? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it makes a lot of sense that as so much of the country is in such a fragile financial situation. I mean, the promise of a one income household broke decades ago, but we used to, you know, when we grew up, it was like, yeah, one person could have a job and support an entire family and like, that’s gone. The middle class is shrinking, like upward mobility is basically non-existent unless you like hit the viral lottery. And so it makes sense that people are like, we want to slow down and like go back to basics. And whether or not this is actually true, they’re looking at a trad wife life as going back to basics. But I also think it can’t be disentangled from the way that culture generally is just shifting rightward. Like the zeitgeist is just becoming so much more conservative. And it’s like, of course, tradwives are surging at this time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this trad wife content just depicts this really beautiful, idyllic life. What was it like for you to watch this content as a journalist before you became a mother and then after you became mother? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before I became a mother, I was like, oh, I can kind of see the appeal. It does seem like kind of beautiful to just be like in charge of the home and just having to make bread and take care of your babies and like look beautiful. And I could kind of understand it. And then after I became mother, I was, like, this is not real life at all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I have one child, I’m pregnant with my second and like, I have never made sourdough in my life. I don’t make my kids baby food from scratch. Like, my hair is usually not done. I’m never in a dress. It’s just the actual blood and guts and effort of motherhood are so disparate from this tradwife life that is shown online.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I think, you know, tradwives never talk about the loneliness of mother hood. And that’s something that really hit me when I became a mother myself, because I have lots of family around. My husband is great. We have a part-time nanny. Like I have help, but it’s still like so lonely, especially in those first few months. And, like, if you watch these women, you would never think that anything was difficult ever. Like, all you have to do, mama, is cuddle your baby and co-sleep with them and breastfeed them on demand and make all their food from scratch and, like it just, it really shattered the illusion for me once I became a mother myself. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, you aren’t out there hand-picking berries to, like feed your kids. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, dude, no. Like, maybe I should once in a while, but no, there’s no time. It just doesn’t make sense. It’s a fantasy, and that’s what made me realize these women aren’t being paid for the labor of motherhood, they’re getting paid for the performance of the laborer of mother hood. Because the labor motherhood is by definition unpaid and it’s often unseen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s going on behind the scenes of this trad wife content that viewers don’t see? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I found out that many of your favorite mom influencers and family vloggers have full-time nannies, they have around the clock help, they have housekeepers, they have house managers, they have videographers, they have editors. I mean, this is an empire. This is a business. And I’ve said this before, there’s nothing wrong with having help. We have a once-monthly house cleaner. We have a part-time nanny. And I would be less sane than I already am without those people helping us. But I think what is troubling to me is selling this idea of self-reliance and saying, ‘I do it all myself.’ And by the way, if you buy this commissioned protein powder, you can be strong enough to do it yourself too, when secretly they have so much help behind the scenes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Beyond the impact that momfluencers have on their audiences, the biggest consequences may fall on the people at the center of it all, their kids. The last time Fortesa was on Close All Tabs, we talked about how children are affected when they’re forced to be part of their parents’ content. Now, the internet is starting to reckon with a reality of sharenting, a portmanteau of share and parenting. Momfluencers have gotten some heat lately over exploiting their children and their content. There’s a vibe shift afoot. And while there will probably always be a demand for this type of parenting content, a growing faction of brands and creators are moving away from showing kids in videos. In an industry that has opened doors for so many women, is there still space for momfluencers who don’t engage in sharenting? A refreshing part of the secret lives of Mormon wives is that their children rarely appear in the show. There’s the occasional shot of someone holding a newborn baby. But the children who can walk and talk are barely in the show at all. In fact, some members of MomTalk have stopped showing their kids in their online content too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think they’ve kind of shifted from showing their kids to showing their experience as mothers and especially as working mothers. Well, that’s the thing is I don’t think there is a right way to be a mother on the internet because if you show your kids, people are like, you’re exploiting them. And if you take them off, then it’s like, oh, you just showboating and trying to act like you’re, like, so above this. And also if you’re gonna take them off, why did you ever put them on in the first place? There’s no way to win. People will hate you no matter what you do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In many cases, these women are walking a tightrope, balancing audience expectations, traditional gender norms, and the realities of raising children. Fortesa tries to avoid thinking about momfluencers in simple black and white terms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For someone who’s reported on the horrors and exploitation involved in family vlogging, you did take a very compassionate approach to writing about the Mormon mommy vloggers and, like, this world of influencers. How do you balance what you know about the momfluencing industry with maintaining empathy for the women involved? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean I really do genuinely feel a lot of empathy for these women and I think especially becoming a mother myself has shown me you know to what lengths I would go to give my daughter a great life. A lot of times these women started mommy blogging in a vulnerable situation. They didn’t go to college or they started having kids really young or they were in some kind of financial instability. And so when I look around at my life and the stability that I have, and then I look at other women and the limited choices they have, I think it’s just dishonest to say that I would never make that decision. Like, I wouldn’t make that decision as myself in my experience, but I could see how you could make it in a different situation. And I’m not one of those people who thinks family vlogging and mom influencing is evil and immoral and bad across the board. I just don’t think that. I think it’s much more nuanced than that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mom Tok is on the verge of collapse, all the time. These women have some very fraught friendships. Will Mom Tok survive this? Has kind of become a mantra on the show. The cultural appetite for family vlogs may fade, especially as the debate over child influencers continues and more viewers become disillusioned with the fantasy of trad wives. But the recent seasons of The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives have proven that people don’t necessarily watch these creators for the content about their kids and not really for the husbands either. Dad Tok is just not it. People watch because they’re interested in the lives of these women, even the messy uncurated versions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The performance of the perfect mother who feeds her kids freshly baked sourdough topped off with hand-churned butter is not always as compelling as the working mother who’s open about the struggles of juggling a career and her kids. As much as there’s still an audience for the tradwife, there’s also growing demand for creators who are honest with their viewers, both about who’s sponsoring their content and about the reality of motherhood. So as mindful sharenting takes more of a hold on internet culture, will mom-fluencing survive this? Probably. But it may have to change. Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor, Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music from APM, audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California, Local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and Gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Author and journalist Fortesa Latifi breaks down the hidden industry behind Mormon “momfluencers.” ",
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"title": "The Secret Lives of Mormon Momfluencers | KQED",
"description": "Only 2% of Americans identify as members of the Church of Latter-day Saints — and yet a striking number of American social media influencers are Mormon. Why? The answer lies in a mix of religious doctrine, early internet adoption, and some surprising financial incentives. In this episode, author and journalist Fortesa Latifi returns to the show to unpack her research for her new book, Like, Follow, Subscribe: Influencer Kids and the Cost of a Childhood Online. She breaks down the hidden industry behind Mormon “momfluencers,” how these creators both uphold and push against a patriarchal system, and why the trad wife fantasy can be damaging far beyond their audience. Plus, she and Morgan tackle the question hanging over reality TV fans everywhere: “Will MomTok survive this?”",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Only 2% of Americans identify as members of the Church of Latter-day Saints — and yet a striking number of American social media influencers are Mormon. Why? The answer lies in a mix of religious doctrine, early internet adoption, and some surprising financial incentives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, author and journalist Fortesa Latifi returns to the show to unpack her research for her new book, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, Follow, Subscribe: Influencer Kids and the Cost of a Childhood Online\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. She breaks down the hidden industry behind Mormon “momfluencers,” how these creators both uphold and push against a patriarchal system, and why the trad wife fantasy can be damaging far beyond their audience. Plus, she and Morgan tackle the question hanging over reality TV fans everywhere: “Will MomTok survive this?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4522289126\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.fortesalatifi.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fortesa Latifi\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, journalist and author of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, Follow, Subscribe: Influencer Kids and the Cost of a Childhood Online.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Like-Follow-Subscribe/Fortesa-Latifi/9781668080504\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, Follow, Subscribe: Influencer Kids and the Cost of a Childhood Online\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Fortesa Latifi, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Simon & Schuster \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://whatsthevibe.substack.com/p/the-mormon-church-pays-its-influencers\">the Mormon Church pays its influencers\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Fortesa Latifi, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>What’s The Vibe\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.thecut.com/article/mormon-momtok-swingers-drama-explained.html\">A Refresher on the Mormon MomTok Drama\u003c/a> — Danielle Cohen, Olivia Truffaut-Wong, and Julia Reinstein,\u003c/span> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>The Cut \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/taylor-frankie-paul-bachelorette-canceled-controversy\">‘The Bachelorette’ Cast Taylor Frankie Paul For The Mess. They Got It. So, Who’s To Blame?\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Katherine Singh, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Refinery 29 \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.marieclaire.com/culture/tv-shows/the-secret-lives-of-mormon-wives-season-2-review/\">‘The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives’ Shows the Trad Wife Reality \u003c/a> — Quinci LeGardye\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Marie Claire \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2025/08/02/how-lds-church-works-with-pays/\">Does the LDS Church pay influencers? Well, actually, yes.\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Dylan Eubank, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>The Salt Lake Tribune\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.thetimes.com/magazines/the-sunday-times-magazine/article/meet-the-queen-of-the-trad-wives-and-her-eight-children-plfr50cgk\">Meet the queen of the ‘trad wives’ (and her eight children)\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Megan Agnew, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>The Times \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2024/12/17/nx-s1-5206673/tradwives-have-taken-over-tiktok-now-ex-tradwives-want-their-moment\">Tradwife life isn’t as good as it looks on TikTok — just ask former tradwives\u003c/a> — Isabella Gomez Sarmiento, \u003ci>NPR\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey it’s Morgan. We just celebrated the show’s first birthday. That’s right Close All Tabs is a pisces. Wanna celebrate with us? It would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends about us, too! Ok, let’s get to the episode. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Have you been keeping up with the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, have I, yes.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fortesa Latifi is a journalist who covers the thorny world of child influencers, family vlogs, and parenting content. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve seen my bylines in Rolling Stone, The New York Times, Teen Vogue, and many more. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fortesa was on Close All Tabs last year in our episode, Children of the Vlog. She just published a book called Like, Follow, Subscribe: Influencer Kids, and the Cost of a Childhood Online. And like me, Fortesa also loves watching the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Promo for Secret Lives of Mormon Wives]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Come ye saints and come ye sinners! Ahhh…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My mom is visiting right now and she’s just like, are you seriously watching this? And I’m like, mom, shh. It’s like what my sister calls TV Xanax, like it just is like, just quiets the mind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know, I’m like, this is my temporary lobotomy for the night. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">100 percent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I put it on and I don’t think for like 40 minutes. It’s beautiful. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a blessed experience. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so for the uninitiated, The Secret Lives Of Mormon Wives is a reality TV show on Hulu, which follows a group of Utah-based mom influencers known as “MomTok.” They’re infamous for the so-called Mormon swinging scandal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Youtube User Spill Sesh] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You guys buckle up because we are talking about “Mom Tok.”. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from TikTok] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now in both her confessionals and conversations with the other wives, Miranda denied doing anything other than kissing at these swinging parties. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Youtube User Spill Sesh] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The drama is insane. It played out all online and now they’ve landed themselves a reality show for just how dramatic they have been and of course there’s more drama now. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To be clear, when we say “momfluencers”, we’re talking about this category of creators whose content revolves around motherhood and family. Like the ones who post the elaborate meals that they pack their kids for lunch, or post about the baby supplies that you, a new mom, actually need, which may or may not be sponsored. The name “MomTok” refers to a group of momfluencers from the show, The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. Think of it as a friend group, well really, frenemy group. Many of them had started out on TikTok, making videos about their lives as stay-at-home mothers. Since then, they’ve built massive followings online and leverage that to launch their own businesses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives] J\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">en: I’m currently the breadwinner in my relationship. I’m providing for my kids, my husband. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jessi: Being known as a successful businesswoman means everything to me. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mayci: We’re just powerful women trying to change the stigma of gender roles in the Mormon culture. And I’m a bad b*tch. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m talking a prenatal supplement brand, a hair extension salon empire, a Broadway debut, brand deals worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, and one of them was supposed to be the next Bachelorette, and that’s been a whole thing. What I’m getting to is that these women are girl bosses, ambitious, entrepreneurial hustlers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jen: My goal was really just to be able to provide for my family. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mayci, I need you to twerk your ass off! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the show, they joke about being tradwives, the archetype of a homemaker who embraces traditional gender roles and doesn’t bother herself with affairs outside of her domestic sphere. But they’re upfront about the fact that they aren’t really tradwives. However, there is a faction of influencers who portray themselves as ideal, conservative, religious homemakers, while also running massive businesses. This is the tradwife girlboss. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, it’s so fascinating because the entire idea of a tradwife is predicated upon a woman staying at home, taking care of her babies, taking care of our house and her husband, and not working outside the house. But it’s a complete contradiction because the tradwives that we know about are all girl bosses. Like you said, I mean, some of them have multimillion dollar empires. So if I think about like a true tradwife, we would never hear about because she’s doing her work quietly and on her own. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We are not getting that deep into the current drama with mom talk and the secret lives of Mormon wives. Honestly, we need like another 15 episodes just to cover all of that. Today we’re digging into the industry of momfluencers, the women whose content revolves around parenting and family and their children. Not all creators who make this kind of content are religious, and not all of them identify as tradwives. But here’s something interesting. A lot of mom flensers are Mormon. We’re going to get into why that is and unpack how the Mormon church played a role in carving out an entire genre of content. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ready? This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open our first tab. Why are so many momfluencers Mormon? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Only 2% of Americans identify as from the Church of Latter-day Saints, which is colloquially called Mormons, but they are so overrepresented in influencer culture. Like almost all of the top mom influencers and family vloggers are Mormon or Mormon adjacent. And it’s just like, how did this happen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To answer that question, we need to go back to 2007. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was the commencement speech given at Brigham Young University, Hawaii, in which an elder of the church told the Mormons who were listening, please use the internet to your advantage basically. Like, use it to blog, use it share your beautiful life, use it to share positive things about the church. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Elder Ballard in commencement speech] \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as you graduate from this wonderful university, may I ask you to join the conversation by participating on the internet, particularly the new media, to share the gospel and explain in simple, clear terms the message of the restoration. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Elder M. Russell Ballard speaking to graduates at Brigham Young University almost 20 years ago. Let’s lay out some historical context for this. So, back in the 1800s, this guy, Joseph Smith, had a revelation and said that an angel told him to dig up a set of golden plates. These plates, according to Joseph Smith were engraved with a kind of companion text to the existing Christian Bible and contained guidance for establishing a new church. In 1830, Joseph Smith published what he said was a translation of the Golden Plates and called it the Book of Mormon, basically establishing the Mormon religion. He gained a following and started converting people. Local communities were not thrilled. The Mormon theology was considered blasphemous and they also practiced polygamy, a big no-no. They were seen as un-American and chased west to what is now Utah. The Mormon Church eventually denounced polygamy, but still faced a generational PR crisis. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were so maligned for so many years by Americans and they were considered not even to be Christian and barely to be American. And so perfection became a doctrine of the Mormon church because once they did away with polygamy, they basically swung kind of in the other direction where they were like, we have to have the most perfect families on earth so that people can’t malign us anymore as un-American and not Christian. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The church encouraged Mormons to become the perfect, all-American, heterosexual, monogamous nuclear family unit, and not just live it, but also be seen living it, and share their faith while they’re at it. A century and a half later, the internet turned out to be the perfect medium for broadcasting both family and faith. Fortesa, said the church quickly realized how effective the internet could be for proselytizing. I mean, Elder Ballard speaking to new grads? That was in 2007. YouTube was brand new. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Elder Ballard in commencement speech] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can start a blog in minutes and begin sharing what you know to be true.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it seems like Mormons above any other religion in the U.S., or really any other subculture in the US, really took to heart the idea of the early internet as a connector. And so many early mom bloggers were Mormon. I mean, when you think about early mom bloggers, you think of about Natalie Jean Lovin and people like that, and they were Mormon, or you think about Amber Fillerup Clark, also Mormon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why were Mormon women so effective as like the early proto-influencer? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there are several reasons. One is that in Mormon culture, you usually get married young and you have a lot of babies, both of which are really good for the algorithm. The algorithm loves young mothers and it loves tons of babies. Another thing is that Mormons from a very young age, especially Mormon women, are taught to keep a record. So it’s actually part of their scripture is to keep a record of their lives and to do this kind of intense journaling practice. Like scrapbooking came from Mormons, which is wild. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I know. It’s crazy. When I looked into it, I was like, wait, this makes so much sense. But they’re taught to keep these intricate records and to do beautiful scrapbooks and like what is influencing if not a journal and a scrapbook. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another reason is that beauty is highly prized in Mormon culture. So making yourself beautiful, being perceived as beautiful is considered to be godly. And so it’s really interesting because in other religions, vanity is a sin. Right? And I don’t think that the Mormons would say that they’re vain, but they do consider beauty to be godly. On top of beauty being considered godly, prosperity is considered godly, and so they have this thing called the prosperity doctrine, Which is basically the more godly and the more devoted you are to your faith, the more money you’re going to make. And so making money in that way is considered almost holy. And so when you take all these factors together, it’s like, duh. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s like the formula for the perfect influencer. So, Mormon influencers have used content creation as a means of proselytizing. Like that elder told BYU grads, use the new media to share the gospel. Was it effective? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think so, I mean, I think it’s interesting because many Mormons in their proselytizing online, it’s not explicit, right? Like they’re not getting on and saying, go read the Book of Mormon or go join the church. But what they are doing is they’re showing their perfect, beautiful families, their perfect beautiful lives, and then you know they’re Mormon and so you’re like, oh, well, there’s a connection between the Mormonism and the perfection. Right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fortessa interviewed one former child influencer who grew up in a Mormon vlogging family. And they told her that during their family’s run as popular YouTubers, at least 50 families joined the church and cited their family as the reason why. This strategy was clearly effective and the Mormon church was invested, literally. More on that after the break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome back. So as Mormon family influencers spread across the internet, what role did the church play in all of this? Time to open a new tab. The Mormon Influencer Industrial Complex. While working on her book, Fortesla went deep into researching the Church of Latter-day Saints and its outreach strategy. And she uncovered a major detail: The church was paying influencers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I had for a long time wondered why so many Mormons are influencers. And it’s like the church, which is the richest church on earth (it’s worth hundreds of billions of dollars, the Mormon church) they actually, specifically, give resources and brand deals and help with sponsorships with their influencers. And there’s like this thing where if you’re a big enough Mormon influencer, you’re invited to this like special influencer dinner and they all kind of network and figure things out together. It’s hard to say exactly when it started, but I would say once they saw the power of those early mom bloggers, it was clear that they could have a hand in it, and it worked. I mean, look, like you think of Nara Smith. I don’t know if she still considers herself Mormon, but her husband was raised Mormon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it is so wild. Can you walk us through the process of getting sponsored by the church? Like how do they pick the influencers to sponsor? How much do they pay? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so it’s really interesting because one of the influencers who confirmed this to me, her name is Shannon Bird and she was one of the original mom bloggers and now she’s on Instagram, but she really had her heyday in mom blogging. And she said that the church just reached out to her and they said, we love your work. We want to have a hand in it. And they said how much is your rate for a post? And in my book, she tells me, “You know, I felt weird like charging my church a rate,” you know? So her normal rate for a post was like eight to ten thousand dollars for like a static post. But she was like, this is my church, like, that feels really weird and so she, I think she charged them like a thousand dollars.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But then at one point, the church accidentally copied her on an email that listed what other influencers were being paid. I know, I know. And she saw that those influencers were charging their market rate. They were charging tens of thousands of dollars for a post. And it was really interesting because the posts weren’t like, come to church with us on Sunday, hashtag Mormon, hashtag LDS or whatever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like, it was like a little bit more subtle than that, where one of the sponsored posts that Shannon told me about was she was given rotisserie chickens and she was giving them out to unhoused people. And her blonde, perfect, beautiful children were like around her and it was basically like a photo of her with the supplies going out. And it was like, you know, give back this season or whatever but there was no explicit mention of Mormonism or the LDS church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so I asked Shannon, like, what do you think was in it for the church? And she’s like, okay, so this is what I think and then this is she said, so what I think is people saw her post and they’re like this beautiful blonde mother with all her beautiful blonde children going out and like, giving back and then they know she’s Mormon and so there’s that connection there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And Shannon told me, well, “One influencer can do a lot more when it comes to proselytizing than, you know, one missionary.” She’s like, “at my height, I had a million viewers of my blog a month. And so what makes more sense putting out missionaries and people don’t even open their door, or getting the beautiful blonde mother to give rotisserie chickens to unhoused people and people make the connection that she’s Mormon.” \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is so wild. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Shannon made such a good point. Like, she has a million viewers a month. What missionary can talk to a million people a month? Like, nobody. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So legally, influencers do have to disclose when they’re posts are sponsored, according to the FTC. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aren’t the Mormon influencers doing that? Do they have to? Does it still apply? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would think it would still apply. I don’t think they’re doing it because otherwise it would have been much clearer to people beforehand that the Mormon church was paying its influencers because no one has written about this before I had. So I don’t think that they’re following it to the letter of the law. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Regardless of the legal implications of these undisclosed church sponsorships, there’s a broader social shift going on here. Many of these women were raised to be wives and mothers. Momfluencing has opened doors that didn’t even exist for many women. Like we talked about earlier, they’re girl bossing. That’s huge, right? But is this a conscious act of reclaiming power? Time to open a new tab. Is mom-fluencing actually feminist? You made a really good point in your book about how, for a lot of these women, influencing and content creation is very lucrative, but it’s also one of the only ways that they’re allowed to exercise any kind of ambition or agency without threatening the patriarchy they live in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Within the Mormon culture, which is heavily patriarchal, women are not supposed to work outside the home. And I think that’s slowly changing, but generally they’re not really supposed to have ambitions beyond being a perfect wife and a perfect mother and having nine children, but looking like they haven’t even had one child. And so, I consider influencing to be like this genius kind of loophole because it’s a way for them to exercise their ambition within the confines of the patriarchy because their job is predicated upon being a perfect mother and a perfect wife. And so it’s like, well, I’m still doing everything perfectly. I’m just showing other people about it and making a ton of money. So it’s, like, who can really have a problem with that? And influencing is largely done within the home. And so it’s kind of the perfect career for women who are in this patriarchal society that says, ‘no, you don’t go out and make the money, I go out to make the the money.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fortessa pointed out this one scene in one of the earlier seasons of The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. They’re gathered in someone’s kitchen, complaining about their husbands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know you don’t want to make a TikTok, but we’ve got to pay the bills. I mean, who else is going to pay the bills, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who is currently like the breadwinner at home? I think all of us. Really? Yeah. We all are. Look at us. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s kind of genius, like I really, as a concept, I think it’s really fascinating and I think its really cool that they found a way to exercise their ambition and agency within the confines of a patriarchal society. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, I mean the new season is all about how Dad Tok, the like, husbands and boyfriends of Mormon wives are all like upset. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Boo, Dad Tok ! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m such a dad talk hater, but they’re all like, upset and they’re trying to find themselves because they’re like, they only know us as our wives’ husbands and not as our own people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dad Tok’s a lot funnier than Mom Tok, and we have our own place on social media. I think this is gonna be a great opportunity for Dad Tok. I think it shows that our wives don’t have a monopoly on social media. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s fascinating to see that they are in the position that Mormon women have been in for generations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But they’re not realizing that. Like, they’re not thinking like, oh, for the last five or seven years before Mom Tok, this is how my wife felt while I went out and made money and had a life outside of the home and she was home with our several young children. It’s fascinating to me, especially as a mom myself, to see men have a taste of what it’s like to be a mom and they’re like, ‘Oh, this sh*t sucks.’ Like, okay, let me be clear, being a mother is incredible. Being a mother and having the mental load and being in charge of everything is very difficult. And being the one who’s at home is very difficult. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, Mom Tok and Dad Tok drama aside, forging careers through social media has been so empowering for many women who grew up in conservative, religious communities. The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives is so interesting to me, because over the course of a few seasons, the women start to understand their own agency. They joke that the group is split between the saints and the sinners. The sinners are the ones who are no longer religious. While the saints still adhere to Mormon values and, more or less, the lifestyle. No drinking, no caffeine, and no divorce.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But throughout the show, even for the saints, you’re watching them deconstruct their upbringings in real time and actually get to exercise their own ambition. These are women who married and got pregnant as teenagers. If they did get to go to college, they were married and get pregnant right after graduation. They didn’t get to experience much of adulthood before they became mothers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And now, through the armies of followers they’ve built online, they’ve girlbossed their way into very successful careers. So they are making so much money. They are like the breadwinners of their family, which is so counter to the values that they preach. Which brings me to my next question. Is mommy blogging actually feminist? \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really grapple with this, because on one hand, taking the unseen and unpaid labor of motherhood and making it seen and paid, I do think is a feminist act. But then again, you’re making it paid on the backs of selling this false vision to other women, which I don’t think can be considered feminist. So it’s like that tweet that’s like, is MasterCard an ally? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">] yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is this pop singer your friend? Like, it’s like… I don’t know, I don’t think that selling this vision of perfect motherhood to other mothers can be considered feminist, I just don’t think it can. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For the last two decades, mom-fluencing has revolved around performing domestic labor. But let’s talk about what it means to portray the fantasy of motherhood. What’s going on behind the scenes? What don’t viewers see? Let’s open one last tab: the trad wife illusion. Time for a case study. We’re going to talk about Ballerina Farm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my gosh, Ballerina Farm. I could write a thesis on her. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You may have seen one of her videos on your feed before. She’s this beautiful blonde woman, usually wearing a linen apron over a gauzy, puff-sleeved dress. She posts these videos of her preparing a meal from scratch, usually no narration, just the sounds of her sprinkling salt on freshly churned butter while her kids run around off camera. Sometimes, a cow in the distance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip from Hannah Neeleman Instagram Account]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When we started to farm, I was swept up in the beauty of learning to make food from scratch. It makes sense why I soon fell in love with the idea of a family milk cow. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So her name is Hannah Neeleman. She is the foremost mom influencer, trad wife, blogger in the world. She lives in Utah. She’s Mormon. She’s married to a Mormon man who actually is the heir to the JetBlue fortune…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wild. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…which they don’t ever talk about, which is interesting because it’s very like, we pulled ourselves up by our bootstraps and started this farm. And it’s like, your father-in-law is a billionaire. So that’s really interesting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s especially tragic about her story is that she was a Mormon woman who did have a really promising career as a ballet dancer. Like, she was in Juilliard… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">at Juilliard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which is wild. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was a profile of her where they talk about how it’s called Ballerina Farm, but on the entire farm, there’s no dance studio. But I mean, that that Times profile was really wild because she’s like in her senior year at Julliard and her soon to be husband, like, meets her and decides like we’re going to get married. And then like, she’s flying back from New York to Utah and she’s flying JetBlue, which his dad owns. And so he pulls some strings, and gets the seat next to her on the flight. And basically, the way that I read it in the story was, like, she wanted to take her time and like, finish school, whatever, and then it turned out she was married and pregnant by graduation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But she just had her ninth child. She looks like she hasn’t had any children. She is very beautiful in like, a very toned down way. She looks she has that no makeup makeup look, and like, she’s always wearing, like, flowy dresses and like, making sourdough from scratch and making like, butter for sandwiches. She makes everything herself. But now it’s turned into this entire empire. Like there’s the Ballerina Farm store, there’s the Ballerina Farm brand. I mean, they make protein powder and hydration powder and sourdough starter and it’s a huge thing. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is the appeal of this kind of this genre of content right now? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it makes a lot of sense that as so much of the country is in such a fragile financial situation. I mean, the promise of a one income household broke decades ago, but we used to, you know, when we grew up, it was like, yeah, one person could have a job and support an entire family and like, that’s gone. The middle class is shrinking, like upward mobility is basically non-existent unless you like hit the viral lottery. And so it makes sense that people are like, we want to slow down and like go back to basics. And whether or not this is actually true, they’re looking at a trad wife life as going back to basics. But I also think it can’t be disentangled from the way that culture generally is just shifting rightward. Like the zeitgeist is just becoming so much more conservative. And it’s like, of course, tradwives are surging at this time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this trad wife content just depicts this really beautiful, idyllic life. What was it like for you to watch this content as a journalist before you became a mother and then after you became mother? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before I became a mother, I was like, oh, I can kind of see the appeal. It does seem like kind of beautiful to just be like in charge of the home and just having to make bread and take care of your babies and like look beautiful. And I could kind of understand it. And then after I became mother, I was, like, this is not real life at all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I have one child, I’m pregnant with my second and like, I have never made sourdough in my life. I don’t make my kids baby food from scratch. Like, my hair is usually not done. I’m never in a dress. It’s just the actual blood and guts and effort of motherhood are so disparate from this tradwife life that is shown online.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I think, you know, tradwives never talk about the loneliness of mother hood. And that’s something that really hit me when I became a mother myself, because I have lots of family around. My husband is great. We have a part-time nanny. Like I have help, but it’s still like so lonely, especially in those first few months. And, like, if you watch these women, you would never think that anything was difficult ever. Like, all you have to do, mama, is cuddle your baby and co-sleep with them and breastfeed them on demand and make all their food from scratch and, like it just, it really shattered the illusion for me once I became a mother myself. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, you aren’t out there hand-picking berries to, like feed your kids. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, dude, no. Like, maybe I should once in a while, but no, there’s no time. It just doesn’t make sense. It’s a fantasy, and that’s what made me realize these women aren’t being paid for the labor of motherhood, they’re getting paid for the performance of the laborer of mother hood. Because the labor motherhood is by definition unpaid and it’s often unseen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s going on behind the scenes of this trad wife content that viewers don’t see? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I found out that many of your favorite mom influencers and family vloggers have full-time nannies, they have around the clock help, they have housekeepers, they have house managers, they have videographers, they have editors. I mean, this is an empire. This is a business. And I’ve said this before, there’s nothing wrong with having help. We have a once-monthly house cleaner. We have a part-time nanny. And I would be less sane than I already am without those people helping us. But I think what is troubling to me is selling this idea of self-reliance and saying, ‘I do it all myself.’ And by the way, if you buy this commissioned protein powder, you can be strong enough to do it yourself too, when secretly they have so much help behind the scenes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Beyond the impact that momfluencers have on their audiences, the biggest consequences may fall on the people at the center of it all, their kids. The last time Fortesa was on Close All Tabs, we talked about how children are affected when they’re forced to be part of their parents’ content. Now, the internet is starting to reckon with a reality of sharenting, a portmanteau of share and parenting. Momfluencers have gotten some heat lately over exploiting their children and their content. There’s a vibe shift afoot. And while there will probably always be a demand for this type of parenting content, a growing faction of brands and creators are moving away from showing kids in videos. In an industry that has opened doors for so many women, is there still space for momfluencers who don’t engage in sharenting? A refreshing part of the secret lives of Mormon wives is that their children rarely appear in the show. There’s the occasional shot of someone holding a newborn baby. But the children who can walk and talk are barely in the show at all. In fact, some members of MomTalk have stopped showing their kids in their online content too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think they’ve kind of shifted from showing their kids to showing their experience as mothers and especially as working mothers. Well, that’s the thing is I don’t think there is a right way to be a mother on the internet because if you show your kids, people are like, you’re exploiting them. And if you take them off, then it’s like, oh, you just showboating and trying to act like you’re, like, so above this. And also if you’re gonna take them off, why did you ever put them on in the first place? There’s no way to win. People will hate you no matter what you do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In many cases, these women are walking a tightrope, balancing audience expectations, traditional gender norms, and the realities of raising children. Fortesa tries to avoid thinking about momfluencers in simple black and white terms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For someone who’s reported on the horrors and exploitation involved in family vlogging, you did take a very compassionate approach to writing about the Mormon mommy vloggers and, like, this world of influencers. How do you balance what you know about the momfluencing industry with maintaining empathy for the women involved? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean I really do genuinely feel a lot of empathy for these women and I think especially becoming a mother myself has shown me you know to what lengths I would go to give my daughter a great life. A lot of times these women started mommy blogging in a vulnerable situation. They didn’t go to college or they started having kids really young or they were in some kind of financial instability. And so when I look around at my life and the stability that I have, and then I look at other women and the limited choices they have, I think it’s just dishonest to say that I would never make that decision. Like, I wouldn’t make that decision as myself in my experience, but I could see how you could make it in a different situation. And I’m not one of those people who thinks family vlogging and mom influencing is evil and immoral and bad across the board. I just don’t think that. I think it’s much more nuanced than that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mom Tok is on the verge of collapse, all the time. These women have some very fraught friendships. Will Mom Tok survive this? Has kind of become a mantra on the show. The cultural appetite for family vlogs may fade, especially as the debate over child influencers continues and more viewers become disillusioned with the fantasy of trad wives. But the recent seasons of The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives have proven that people don’t necessarily watch these creators for the content about their kids and not really for the husbands either. Dad Tok is just not it. People watch because they’re interested in the lives of these women, even the messy uncurated versions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The performance of the perfect mother who feeds her kids freshly baked sourdough topped off with hand-churned butter is not always as compelling as the working mother who’s open about the struggles of juggling a career and her kids. As much as there’s still an audience for the tradwife, there’s also growing demand for creators who are honest with their viewers, both about who’s sponsoring their content and about the reality of motherhood. So as mindful sharenting takes more of a hold on internet culture, will mom-fluencing survive this? Probably. But it may have to change. Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor, Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music from APM, audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California, Local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and Gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>As a growing number of lawsuits allege AI chatbots are cultivating emotional dependency loops with humans, Alphabet’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/google\">Google\u003c/a> announced it will direct Gemini chatbot users to a support hotline if the conversation indicates a “potential crisis related to suicide or self-harm.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a\u003ca href=\"https://blog.google/innovation-and-ai/technology/health/mental-health-updates/\"> blog post\u003c/a>, Google wrote that Gemini will introduce a redesigned “Help is available” feature, developed in collaboration with clinical experts. “Once the interface is activated, the option to reach out for professional help will remain clearly available throughout the remainder of the conversation,” the post stated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google wrote that it has trained Gemini “not to agree with or reinforce false beliefs, and instead gently distinguish subjective experience from objective fact.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Psychologically vulnerable people turning to chatbots to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049674\">go down rabbit holes\u003c/a> could have been predicted, according to Jennifer King, a privacy and data policy fellow at the Stanford Institute for Human-Centered Artificial Intelligence. “To some extent, you can anticipate some of the harms we see,” she told KQED. “We’ve seen people acting bad with technology across a variety of behaviors for a very long time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although the blog post does not mention lawsuits, the family of a 36-year-old man who died in Florida\u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-03-04/google-gemini-accused-of-coaching-user-to-suicide-in-new-suit\"> sued Google\u003c/a> in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California last month, claiming that his use of Gemini devolved into a “\u003ca href=\"https://news.bloomberglaw.com/artificial-intelligence/google-gemini-accused-of-coaching-user-to-suicide-in-new-suit\">four-day descent into violent missions and coached suicide\u003c/a>.” At the time, Google said the chatbot repeatedly referred the man to a crisis hotline, but the company also promised to improve Gemini’s safeguards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/embed/DR-vBOsyQPE\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063401/openai-faces-legal-storm-over-claims-its-ai-drove-users-to-suicide-delusions\">not the only AI developer\u003c/a> facing lawsuits over allegations that its chatbots encourage some users to form obsessive relationships with them, feed delusions and even contribute to plans for suicide or murder. Research also suggests users\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\"> form intense, quasi-romantic bonds\u003c/a> with chatbots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The guardrails are obviously necessary, King said. “There have been many cases of users experiencing psychosis and other problems,” she added, noting the sycophancy or agreeability built into the chatbots’ design encourages unstable behavior, “as well as their propensity to get people to believe things that just aren’t true.”[aside postID=news_12069286 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/OpenAI.jpg']Guadalupe Hayes-Mota, director of the bioethics program at Santa Clara University, wants to see proof that AI chatbot developers are using clinically validated guidelines for interactions where mental health care is an issue. “Who’s actually making the decision when the crisis pops up for the individual, and how is that being done?” he asked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s an awful lot of people who study these things,” King said. “But they’re often not consulted. They’re not part of the process.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the past year and a half, OpenAI and Anthropic have also adjusted their mental-health guardrails, amid growing public scrutiny and lawsuits. Experts say that in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">absence of federal regulation\u003c/a>, court rulings appear to be most effectively inspiring tech companies to take proactive measures like Google’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In March, a Los Angeles jury found Meta and YouTube negligent in a case centered around \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063401/openai-faces-legal-storm-over-claims-its-ai-drove-users-to-suicide-delusions\">social media addiction\u003c/a>, using arguments centered around product liability and negligence — sidestepping Section 230, a longstanding legal shield that protects platforms from liability for harmful content that users post.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>As a growing number of lawsuits allege AI chatbots are cultivating emotional dependency loops with humans, Alphabet’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/google\">Google\u003c/a> announced it will direct Gemini chatbot users to a support hotline if the conversation indicates a “potential crisis related to suicide or self-harm.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a\u003ca href=\"https://blog.google/innovation-and-ai/technology/health/mental-health-updates/\"> blog post\u003c/a>, Google wrote that Gemini will introduce a redesigned “Help is available” feature, developed in collaboration with clinical experts. “Once the interface is activated, the option to reach out for professional help will remain clearly available throughout the remainder of the conversation,” the post stated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google wrote that it has trained Gemini “not to agree with or reinforce false beliefs, and instead gently distinguish subjective experience from objective fact.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Psychologically vulnerable people turning to chatbots to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049674\">go down rabbit holes\u003c/a> could have been predicted, according to Jennifer King, a privacy and data policy fellow at the Stanford Institute for Human-Centered Artificial Intelligence. “To some extent, you can anticipate some of the harms we see,” she told KQED. “We’ve seen people acting bad with technology across a variety of behaviors for a very long time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although the blog post does not mention lawsuits, the family of a 36-year-old man who died in Florida\u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-03-04/google-gemini-accused-of-coaching-user-to-suicide-in-new-suit\"> sued Google\u003c/a> in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California last month, claiming that his use of Gemini devolved into a “\u003ca href=\"https://news.bloomberglaw.com/artificial-intelligence/google-gemini-accused-of-coaching-user-to-suicide-in-new-suit\">four-day descent into violent missions and coached suicide\u003c/a>.” At the time, Google said the chatbot repeatedly referred the man to a crisis hotline, but the company also promised to improve Gemini’s safeguards.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/DR-vBOsyQPE'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/DR-vBOsyQPE'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>Google is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063401/openai-faces-legal-storm-over-claims-its-ai-drove-users-to-suicide-delusions\">not the only AI developer\u003c/a> facing lawsuits over allegations that its chatbots encourage some users to form obsessive relationships with them, feed delusions and even contribute to plans for suicide or murder. Research also suggests users\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\"> form intense, quasi-romantic bonds\u003c/a> with chatbots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The guardrails are obviously necessary, King said. “There have been many cases of users experiencing psychosis and other problems,” she added, noting the sycophancy or agreeability built into the chatbots’ design encourages unstable behavior, “as well as their propensity to get people to believe things that just aren’t true.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Guadalupe Hayes-Mota, director of the bioethics program at Santa Clara University, wants to see proof that AI chatbot developers are using clinically validated guidelines for interactions where mental health care is an issue. “Who’s actually making the decision when the crisis pops up for the individual, and how is that being done?” he asked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s an awful lot of people who study these things,” King said. “But they’re often not consulted. They’re not part of the process.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the past year and a half, OpenAI and Anthropic have also adjusted their mental-health guardrails, amid growing public scrutiny and lawsuits. Experts say that in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">absence of federal regulation\u003c/a>, court rulings appear to be most effectively inspiring tech companies to take proactive measures like Google’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In March, a Los Angeles jury found Meta and YouTube negligent in a case centered around \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063401/openai-faces-legal-storm-over-claims-its-ai-drove-users-to-suicide-delusions\">social media addiction\u003c/a>, using arguments centered around product liability and negligence — sidestepping Section 230, a longstanding legal shield that protects platforms from liability for harmful content that users post.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "in-a-tech-hub-like-the-bay-area-why-do-bart-announcements-sound-so-ancient",
"title": "In a Tech Hub Like the Bay Area, Why Do BART Announcements Sound So Ancient?",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bart\">Bay Area Rapid Transit\u003c/a> — or BART — was a brand new, cutting-edge transportation system when it opened in 1972. Since then, its reputation has become a bit less high-tech. And while riders hear a variety of voices making announcements throughout the BART system, there are two that sound different — robotic, synthesized voices, one male and one female, that sound like they are from yesteryear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And at least one rider has taken particular note.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never understood what it was saying,” Bay Curious listener Jimmy Tobin said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Jimmy, the voices sound rudimentary, like the voice of 1990s Microsoft Sam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m baffled by this thing,” he said. “I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078618\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078618\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1522\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-1536x1169.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sept. 11, 1972, BART opens to the public. On the first day alone, 15,000 people rode the new trains, despite the fact that they only ran between Fremont and MacArthur Stations in the East Bay. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Bay Area Rapid Transit))\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It seems like a blatant contradiction to him that trains running through communities at the heart of the AI boom sound like they’re from the first computers ever made. He wants to know why these robotic announcements have never been updated.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Passengers used to just wait\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before the late 1990s, BART had no live train information or announcements for passengers. There would occasionally be voiced announcements in the case of major disruptions, but on a regular day, riders would consult a paper schedule to see when a train was supposed to arrive. In the case of delays, riders would wait on the platform, without any information on when the train might actually come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in 2000, BART began using a new piece of technology.[aside postID=news_12077572 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00034_TV-KQED.jpg'] The Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) is a data hub that allows BART to calculate and communicate live train locations. For the first time, BART had the ability to share real-time information with riders, like the estimated time of arrival of a train. They initially did this with digital signage on the train platforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The data would later be made publicly available, allowing for other platforms like navigation apps to utilize the live train information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When this technology was rolling out in 2000, BART was also assessing the accessibility of its system for blind and visually impaired riders. BART’s policy became, “Anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say,” said Alicia Trost, chief communications officer at BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In order to translate the digital signs with real-time updates into verbal announcements, BART acquired a text-to-speech system from Lucent Technologies, a telecommunications company. And those synthesized voices that bug Tobin so much, they have names — George and Gracie. Listen closely, and you’ll hear that George announces trains in one direction and the Gracie announces trains in the opposite direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, this was cutting-edge technology — the system could vocalize thousands of announcements per day with real-time information, all without any human involvement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in the past 26 years, George and Gracie have stayed mostly the same, and their limitations have become apparent. For an accessibility tool, they can be hard to understand, and compared to today’s voice synthesizing technology, they don’t sound very human.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Why hasn’t BART updated George and Gracie?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie are proprietary to Lucent Technologies, which went out of business in the mid-2000s. The company is no longer around to provide updates, and BART doesn’t have access to the source code to make its own changes. The only thing that can be updated is the text that George and Gracie read.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“BART has really limited funding, and we have to think about the priority,” Trost said. “Things like replacing our trains are more important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12044953\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12044953\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Passengers wait to board BART at Daly City Station in Daly City, on Dec. 4, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie may be a bit outdated, but the system works, so updating it isn’t a top priority, Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s also clear that some Bay Area residents love George and Gracie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the computer game Roblox, users have \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24yglNNGJZ4\">featured their voices\u003c/a> in recreations of the BART system. As players drive or board a virtual BART train, George and Gracie are there announcing: “Now boarding at Embarcadero.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They have also been a topic of discussion on Reddit and YouTube. \u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/Bart/comments/1g130wj/the_voices_of_bart/?solution=4a4ea784b52b90a34a4ea784b52b90a3&js_challenge=1&token=bbbe4bf1c9a2b5160829c4be34da586108bdd3256eb2920042534355492efd5e\">One Reddit user, ‘get-a-mac,’\u003c/a> wrote, “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another with the handle StreetyMcCarface wrote, “Keep George and Gracie, they are iconic.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, Trost said BART \u003cem>is \u003c/em>looking to replace the announcement system at some point, which will force some tough decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sound so dated, because people love them?” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART is currently facing a $376 million deficit, raising big questions about its future. It’s forcing Bay Area residents to consider a world without BART and its role in the culture of the bay, big and small.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Area Rapid Transit. Our dear friend, BART. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For regular riders, your whirs, squeaks and horns are part of the everyday soundtrack of life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">always\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hear you coming. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whir of a train pulling into the station\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We appreciate those timely warnings… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The doors are closing please stand clear of the doors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And how you help us not miss our stop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Arriving at 16th street Mission\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every now and then, someone \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">real\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> pops in\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is BART operation control…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy Tobin, our question asker, has been fixated on one particular sound in the BART ecosystem. A set of announcements …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So sometimes it feels like there’s like a lower kind of male voice that’s like, feels like it’s from like war games, like WOPR kind of style. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wargames Clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This box interprets signals from the computer and turns it into sounds. “Shall we play a game?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And there’s a higher female voice is kind of like 90s Microsoft Sam style.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Microsoft Sam: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, I am Microsoft Sam. I am the most popular voice of Microsoft.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are a variety of voices riders hear throughout BART, some of which are voiced by actual people. But it’s \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">these\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> robotic and synthesized voices that Jimmy can’t stop hearing … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three car Fremont Train now boarding, platform 2.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy is an audio engineer at Google who actually works on synthesized speech models, and these voices really \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">bothered\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> him. One day when he was waiting for a BART train and heard an announcement for a train heading toward the Oakland Airport.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">6-car Blue line train for OAK Airport Dublin in 15 minutes. 6-car Green line train for OAK Airport Barryessa in 19 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I never understood what it was saying. I always thought it was, like, Oasis? And so I was just like, what is this word? And then I look at the board and it’s like, OAK, and I’m like, why didn’t it say Oakland? Like, and so I’m baffled by this thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It felt like such a contradiction to him that \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">this \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">was a voice of the transit system going through the home to the AI Boom… where all the newest tech is being developed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I kept being like, it must be for, like, accessibility or maybe it’s like, it doesn’t have accents or something. And I was just like, I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update. That’s why I came to you guys.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He wants to know the backstory behind these voices – and where they came from.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What has been the decision-making to keep it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious. Today on the show we answer Jimmy’s questions. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor Break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To tell us more about the voices behind BART, we pass it to KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened to the public on Sept. 11, 1972, the world looked different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">1970s music plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Richard Nixon was president of the United States. Elvis Presley’s “Burning Love” was charting. And Bay Area residents flocked to try out the new Bay Area Rapid Transit system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time it only ran for 11 stops — from the McArthur Station in Oakland down to Fremont.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>BART Commercial:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The decade of the 1970s, is the decade of the decade of transportation alternatives…but the first large-scale breakthrough in moving great numbers of people rapidly and economically is the SF Bay Area Rapid Transit system, commonly called BART.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened, there was no live train information for riders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The only way riders knew when a train was coming was by reading a paper schedule. You might hear an announcement for major occurrences like if a train was completely out of service. But if your train was a little delayed, you’d sit and wait– without any information on when it would actually arrive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then in 2000, everything changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART developed a piece of technology called the Advanced Passenger Information System. For the first time, BART knew the live locations of trains throughout the system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riders now got real time information about when their train would arrive..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alicia Trost is the Chief Communications Officer at BART. She told me more about this era.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We had digital screens on the platform that gave you the, what we call ETAs, estimated time arrivals of the train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this was a pretty big deal… but at a time where new legislation mandated accessibility for disabled people— BART had to ask some important questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what if you’re low vision and you can’t see or you’re blind? And so there was this big policy decision to say anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART chose a text-to-speech system to voice these announcements. It came from Lucent Technologies– a telecommunications company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in 2000, this synthesized voice speaking for BART was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a computer with zero emotion, and it’s… every… word… is… spaced… apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voices were tested at different speeds and levels of breathiness. Riders gave input on the versions that were easiest to understand that led to the final version.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The feminine voice of this system was named Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 6 car richmond train now approaching platform 1 \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the masculine voice was named George.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 10 car San Francisco-Milbrae train in 8 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">George and Gracie announce a train’s estimated time of arrival, when a train is actively arriving, and when it is boarding. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2000, this was cutting edge technology– announcements made automatically, without any human involvement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, there were and still also are \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">human voiced\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> announcements when there are big disruptions or delays… but even today, you’ll hear George and Gracie while waiting for a train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So next time you’re in a bart station, really pay attention. You’ll hear George’s voice for one direction only and Gracie’s voice for the opposite direction.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Beat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since 2000, George and Gracie have been the voices we hear on BART platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in the past 26 years, there has been very little change. That’s because the actual text-to-speech system is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">proprietary\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to Lucent Technologies\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And after the demise of the company in the mid 2000s, they haven’t been around to provide any updates. And the kicker is BART doesn’t have access to the source code so they can’t change it. The only thing they can do is change the text that George and Gracie speak. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I asked Alicia Jimmy’s question: Why hasn’t this been replaced ?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because it works and BART has really limited funding and when we go for capital funds, that’s the type of money we use to replace this system we have to think about the priority and things like replacing our trains is more important.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But she says that BART \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>is\u003c/i>\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">aware of the limitations of this technology– they’ve gotten that feedback and they want to replace it in the future. So, they are looking at piloting a new PA system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And part of that is introducing what will be new voices. And it makes me nervous to even say that because this is going to cause great fear and debate among riders and the public… Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sounds so dated, but because people love them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, despite their flaws, it seems like lots of people love these voices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We frequently get asked about George and Gracie, and people tell us they love it. And we also know that there’s a lot of young people who adore the sound and have actually built in Roblox full-on BART systems.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they include recordings George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So as you’re driving or boarding a virtual BART train in the 3D world of roblox, you’ll hear their voices!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of Roblox game\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aside from Roblox, George and Gracie have been a topic of discussion on Reddit and Youtube. And while there are the usual criticisms and suggestions to change it, it’s interesting to see what these voices represent for some people who love them: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One person on reddit with the username ‘Get-a-Mac’ says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another user, COD Gamer 19, says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gracie and George are a part of BART’s history, it wouldn’t feel the same without them, they’re a part of the bay as a whole.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I just know that it’s a popular topic because of how much I see it like in the culture of the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are questions about the future of BART, especially as \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“They face a 376 million dollar budget deficit.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s forcing us to consider the ways BART impacts our lives and culture. And frankly, what it might be like to live without it.These questions go far beyond George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But still, this little piece of technology, stuck in time, reminds us of how quickly things have changed. And maybe, it brings you a little joy –or frustration –iin the monotony of your commute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> George, it’s time to get back to work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You are right as usual, Gracie. Goodbye and thanks for visiting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral. Jimmy Tobin thank you for asking the question. There is no question too big or small for Bay Curious – if you’ve got one that’s been itching in your mind, send it our way over at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> or shoot us an email. We’re at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bart\">Bay Area Rapid Transit\u003c/a> — or BART — was a brand new, cutting-edge transportation system when it opened in 1972. Since then, its reputation has become a bit less high-tech. And while riders hear a variety of voices making announcements throughout the BART system, there are two that sound different — robotic, synthesized voices, one male and one female, that sound like they are from yesteryear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And at least one rider has taken particular note.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never understood what it was saying,” Bay Curious listener Jimmy Tobin said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Jimmy, the voices sound rudimentary, like the voice of 1990s Microsoft Sam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m baffled by this thing,” he said. “I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078618\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078618\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1522\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-1536x1169.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sept. 11, 1972, BART opens to the public. On the first day alone, 15,000 people rode the new trains, despite the fact that they only ran between Fremont and MacArthur Stations in the East Bay. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Bay Area Rapid Transit))\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It seems like a blatant contradiction to him that trains running through communities at the heart of the AI boom sound like they’re from the first computers ever made. He wants to know why these robotic announcements have never been updated.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Passengers used to just wait\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before the late 1990s, BART had no live train information or announcements for passengers. There would occasionally be voiced announcements in the case of major disruptions, but on a regular day, riders would consult a paper schedule to see when a train was supposed to arrive. In the case of delays, riders would wait on the platform, without any information on when the train might actually come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in 2000, BART began using a new piece of technology.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp> The Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) is a data hub that allows BART to calculate and communicate live train locations. For the first time, BART had the ability to share real-time information with riders, like the estimated time of arrival of a train. They initially did this with digital signage on the train platforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The data would later be made publicly available, allowing for other platforms like navigation apps to utilize the live train information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When this technology was rolling out in 2000, BART was also assessing the accessibility of its system for blind and visually impaired riders. BART’s policy became, “Anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say,” said Alicia Trost, chief communications officer at BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In order to translate the digital signs with real-time updates into verbal announcements, BART acquired a text-to-speech system from Lucent Technologies, a telecommunications company. And those synthesized voices that bug Tobin so much, they have names — George and Gracie. Listen closely, and you’ll hear that George announces trains in one direction and the Gracie announces trains in the opposite direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, this was cutting-edge technology — the system could vocalize thousands of announcements per day with real-time information, all without any human involvement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in the past 26 years, George and Gracie have stayed mostly the same, and their limitations have become apparent. For an accessibility tool, they can be hard to understand, and compared to today’s voice synthesizing technology, they don’t sound very human.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Why hasn’t BART updated George and Gracie?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie are proprietary to Lucent Technologies, which went out of business in the mid-2000s. The company is no longer around to provide updates, and BART doesn’t have access to the source code to make its own changes. The only thing that can be updated is the text that George and Gracie read.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“BART has really limited funding, and we have to think about the priority,” Trost said. “Things like replacing our trains are more important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12044953\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12044953\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Passengers wait to board BART at Daly City Station in Daly City, on Dec. 4, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie may be a bit outdated, but the system works, so updating it isn’t a top priority, Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s also clear that some Bay Area residents love George and Gracie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the computer game Roblox, users have \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24yglNNGJZ4\">featured their voices\u003c/a> in recreations of the BART system. As players drive or board a virtual BART train, George and Gracie are there announcing: “Now boarding at Embarcadero.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They have also been a topic of discussion on Reddit and YouTube. \u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/Bart/comments/1g130wj/the_voices_of_bart/?solution=4a4ea784b52b90a34a4ea784b52b90a3&js_challenge=1&token=bbbe4bf1c9a2b5160829c4be34da586108bdd3256eb2920042534355492efd5e\">One Reddit user, ‘get-a-mac,’\u003c/a> wrote, “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another with the handle StreetyMcCarface wrote, “Keep George and Gracie, they are iconic.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, Trost said BART \u003cem>is \u003c/em>looking to replace the announcement system at some point, which will force some tough decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sound so dated, because people love them?” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART is currently facing a $376 million deficit, raising big questions about its future. It’s forcing Bay Area residents to consider a world without BART and its role in the culture of the bay, big and small.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Area Rapid Transit. Our dear friend, BART. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For regular riders, your whirs, squeaks and horns are part of the everyday soundtrack of life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">always\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hear you coming. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whir of a train pulling into the station\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We appreciate those timely warnings… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The doors are closing please stand clear of the doors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And how you help us not miss our stop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Arriving at 16th street Mission\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every now and then, someone \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">real\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> pops in\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is BART operation control…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy Tobin, our question asker, has been fixated on one particular sound in the BART ecosystem. A set of announcements …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So sometimes it feels like there’s like a lower kind of male voice that’s like, feels like it’s from like war games, like WOPR kind of style. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wargames Clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This box interprets signals from the computer and turns it into sounds. “Shall we play a game?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And there’s a higher female voice is kind of like 90s Microsoft Sam style.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Microsoft Sam: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, I am Microsoft Sam. I am the most popular voice of Microsoft.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are a variety of voices riders hear throughout BART, some of which are voiced by actual people. But it’s \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">these\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> robotic and synthesized voices that Jimmy can’t stop hearing … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three car Fremont Train now boarding, platform 2.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy is an audio engineer at Google who actually works on synthesized speech models, and these voices really \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">bothered\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> him. One day when he was waiting for a BART train and heard an announcement for a train heading toward the Oakland Airport.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">6-car Blue line train for OAK Airport Dublin in 15 minutes. 6-car Green line train for OAK Airport Barryessa in 19 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I never understood what it was saying. I always thought it was, like, Oasis? And so I was just like, what is this word? And then I look at the board and it’s like, OAK, and I’m like, why didn’t it say Oakland? Like, and so I’m baffled by this thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It felt like such a contradiction to him that \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">this \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">was a voice of the transit system going through the home to the AI Boom… where all the newest tech is being developed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I kept being like, it must be for, like, accessibility or maybe it’s like, it doesn’t have accents or something. And I was just like, I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update. That’s why I came to you guys.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He wants to know the backstory behind these voices – and where they came from.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What has been the decision-making to keep it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious. Today on the show we answer Jimmy’s questions. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor Break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To tell us more about the voices behind BART, we pass it to KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened to the public on Sept. 11, 1972, the world looked different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">1970s music plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Richard Nixon was president of the United States. Elvis Presley’s “Burning Love” was charting. And Bay Area residents flocked to try out the new Bay Area Rapid Transit system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time it only ran for 11 stops — from the McArthur Station in Oakland down to Fremont.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>BART Commercial:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The decade of the 1970s, is the decade of the decade of transportation alternatives…but the first large-scale breakthrough in moving great numbers of people rapidly and economically is the SF Bay Area Rapid Transit system, commonly called BART.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened, there was no live train information for riders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The only way riders knew when a train was coming was by reading a paper schedule. You might hear an announcement for major occurrences like if a train was completely out of service. But if your train was a little delayed, you’d sit and wait– without any information on when it would actually arrive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then in 2000, everything changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART developed a piece of technology called the Advanced Passenger Information System. For the first time, BART knew the live locations of trains throughout the system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riders now got real time information about when their train would arrive..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alicia Trost is the Chief Communications Officer at BART. She told me more about this era.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We had digital screens on the platform that gave you the, what we call ETAs, estimated time arrivals of the train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this was a pretty big deal… but at a time where new legislation mandated accessibility for disabled people— BART had to ask some important questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what if you’re low vision and you can’t see or you’re blind? And so there was this big policy decision to say anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART chose a text-to-speech system to voice these announcements. It came from Lucent Technologies– a telecommunications company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in 2000, this synthesized voice speaking for BART was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a computer with zero emotion, and it’s… every… word… is… spaced… apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voices were tested at different speeds and levels of breathiness. Riders gave input on the versions that were easiest to understand that led to the final version.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The feminine voice of this system was named Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 6 car richmond train now approaching platform 1 \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the masculine voice was named George.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 10 car San Francisco-Milbrae train in 8 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">George and Gracie announce a train’s estimated time of arrival, when a train is actively arriving, and when it is boarding. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2000, this was cutting edge technology– announcements made automatically, without any human involvement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, there were and still also are \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">human voiced\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> announcements when there are big disruptions or delays… but even today, you’ll hear George and Gracie while waiting for a train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So next time you’re in a bart station, really pay attention. You’ll hear George’s voice for one direction only and Gracie’s voice for the opposite direction.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Beat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since 2000, George and Gracie have been the voices we hear on BART platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in the past 26 years, there has been very little change. That’s because the actual text-to-speech system is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">proprietary\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to Lucent Technologies\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And after the demise of the company in the mid 2000s, they haven’t been around to provide any updates. And the kicker is BART doesn’t have access to the source code so they can’t change it. The only thing they can do is change the text that George and Gracie speak. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I asked Alicia Jimmy’s question: Why hasn’t this been replaced ?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because it works and BART has really limited funding and when we go for capital funds, that’s the type of money we use to replace this system we have to think about the priority and things like replacing our trains is more important.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But she says that BART \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>is\u003c/i>\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">aware of the limitations of this technology– they’ve gotten that feedback and they want to replace it in the future. So, they are looking at piloting a new PA system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And part of that is introducing what will be new voices. And it makes me nervous to even say that because this is going to cause great fear and debate among riders and the public… Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sounds so dated, but because people love them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, despite their flaws, it seems like lots of people love these voices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We frequently get asked about George and Gracie, and people tell us they love it. And we also know that there’s a lot of young people who adore the sound and have actually built in Roblox full-on BART systems.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they include recordings George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So as you’re driving or boarding a virtual BART train in the 3D world of roblox, you’ll hear their voices!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of Roblox game\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aside from Roblox, George and Gracie have been a topic of discussion on Reddit and Youtube. And while there are the usual criticisms and suggestions to change it, it’s interesting to see what these voices represent for some people who love them: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One person on reddit with the username ‘Get-a-Mac’ says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another user, COD Gamer 19, says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gracie and George are a part of BART’s history, it wouldn’t feel the same without them, they’re a part of the bay as a whole.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I just know that it’s a popular topic because of how much I see it like in the culture of the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are questions about the future of BART, especially as \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“They face a 376 million dollar budget deficit.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s forcing us to consider the ways BART impacts our lives and culture. And frankly, what it might be like to live without it.These questions go far beyond George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But still, this little piece of technology, stuck in time, reminds us of how quickly things have changed. And maybe, it brings you a little joy –or frustration –iin the monotony of your commute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> George, it’s time to get back to work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You are right as usual, Gracie. Goodbye and thanks for visiting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral. Jimmy Tobin thank you for asking the question. There is no question too big or small for Bay Curious – if you’ve got one that’s been itching in your mind, send it our way over at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> or shoot us an email. We’re at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "bee-movie-we-are-charlie-kirk-and-the-enduring-bait-and-switch-meme",
"title": "Bee Movie, \"We Are Charlie Kirk,\" and the Enduring Bait-and-Switch Meme",
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"headTitle": "Bee Movie, “We Are Charlie Kirk,” and the Enduring Bait-and-Switch Meme | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to all known laws of aviation, there is no way a bee \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">should be able to fly. Its wings are too small to get its fat little body off the ground. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The bee, of course, flies anyway because bees don’t care what humans think is impossible.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2007, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hit theaters with a strange plot and was considered a box office flop. Nearly two decades later, it’s somehow more relevant than ever, not because of the movie itself, but because of what happened next. The script became a meme, then a prank, then, eventually, a tool for protest.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, host Morgan Sung traces the evolution of bait-and-switch memes, from early internet shock images to the rise of the “Never Gonna Give You Up” rickroll, all the way to TikTok-era pranks that burn out as quickly as they go viral. Along the way, she talks to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">co-writer Spike Feresten about how the film\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> became an unlikely internet icon, and to digital rhetoric expert Bret Strauch about what makes a meme actually stick.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1407643406\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/spikeferesten/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Spike Feresten\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, screenwriter and comedian\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.colorado.edu/pwr/bret-strauch-phd\">Bret Strauch\u003c/a>, assistant professor of digital media, University of Colorado Boulder\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZdGGIT3fu0Pad9itT8HZMGkIwtYFQBS1vH5j21rN2Ns/edit?usp=sharing\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Behind the scenes content\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> on the making of this episode!\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wbur.org/endlessthread/2021/10/08/memes-never-gonna-give-you-up\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MEMES, Part 3: Gotta make you understand\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Endless Thread\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/11/a-complete-history-of-bee-movies-many-many-memes.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Complete History of Bee Movie’s Many, Many Memes\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Paris Martineau, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Intelligencer\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://gamerant.com/bee-movie-meme/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why Did Bee Movie Become A Meme?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Joshua Kristian McCoy, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">GameRant\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.polygon.com/23984032/josh-hutcherson-whistle-edit-meme-trend-explained/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Josh Hutcherson ‘Whistle’ edit meme, explained\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ana Diaz, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Polygon\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.themarysue.com/charlie-kirk-ai-song/\">‘His courage our own’: This Charlie Kirk tribute song is blowing up on Spotify. Was it made by a human—or AI?\u003c/a> — Braden Bjella, \u003ci>The Mary Sue\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to all known laws of aviation, there is no way a bee should be able to fly. Its wings are too small to get its fat little body off the ground. The bee, of course, flies anyway because bees don’t care what humans think is impossible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Those are the iconic opening lines of the 2007 film \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And the voice you heard reading those lines.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Spike Feresten. Is that really it? Is that what we wrote?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Spike is a comedian and screenwriter who’s worked on Seinfeld, written for David Letterman, hosted his own show, and co-wrote the one and only \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. You know, the one starring Jerry Seinfelt as a talking Bee.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from Bee Movie] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Barry: I’m going out. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Adam: Out? Out where? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Barry: Outside the hive. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Crowd: *Gasps*\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What if the bees discovered the humans were taking their honey? That was one big idea that kind of unlocked a little bit of the plot, but the kind of larger idea was, what would happen if a bee didn’t want to just go into the honey business? Isn’t there, is there something more?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hijinks ensue. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">is a surprisingly deep story about exploitation, uncompensated labor, the vital environmental role that bees play as pollinators, and what it takes to break out of society’s mold. That is, if society is a honeybee hive in Manhattan. Oh, and the bee kind of falls in love with a human woman. It’s a whole thing. Spike said that Steven Spielberg asked Jerry Seinfeld if he wanted to do an animated movie. And Jerry Seinfeld said,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“What about a movie about bees and we’ll call it Bee Movie.” And he went, “Sold!” It’s the shortest pitch in like film history. And then Jerry called us up the next day and said, I just sold a movie to Spielberg/Dreamworks Animation about bees. And we were like, what is it about? And he goes, that’s what we have to figure out. The very first thing we did was start reading about bees and we came across this fact. It was like, oh, this is kind of remarkable that these guys can’t fly in rain and that their bodies aren’t right and it’s hard for them to fly and everything in kind of fodder for, you know, the world of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was Jerry’s big comeback after Seinfeld, which had wrapped up about five years before development on \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> started. And the movie did well at the box office, but among film critics, it was a flop. Kids loved it, but it didn’t compare to the Shrek franchise or Ratatouille, which dominated early 2000s animation. The plot was weird. The jokes skewed more adult, and the whole romantic vibe between a human woman and a honeybee, maybe a bit too out there for the general public. Jerry even joked about it a couple years ago. Here he is on the Tonight Show:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip of Jerry Seinfeld on the Tonight Show] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I apologize for what seems to be a certain, uncomfortable, subtle, sexual aspect of the Bee Movie which really was not intentional. But after it came out, I realized, this is really not appropriate for children.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The world moved on. But today, almost 20 years later, Bee Movie is a cult classic. Because the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script itself has become one of the quintessential internet pranks. Annoyed with someone? Dump the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script in their comments. Protesting against the government’s anti-trans bathroom complaint forms? Spam the tip line with the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script. Here’s Spike again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We couldn’t quite understand, are they making fun of us, which is fine, or are they really celebrating us, or is it are they just taking our weird thing and doing weird things with it? There’s simple ideas like weaponized absurdity, you know, so when some horrible right-winger has got some sort of hotline to expose the trans community or something, and people just load in the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script. To us, like, that’s fantastic. We’re not even gonna engage you in conversation. We’re just gonna drop an absurdity bomb in there and just stop it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script remains a top-tier internet prank. It’s up there with Rickrolling. This is a genre known as bait-and-switch memes. The internet has changed drastically since the days of pranking people with “Never Gonna Give You Up.” And memes have changed, too. Imagine trying to explain today’s trends to someone in 2007. But what hasn’t changed about internet culture is the love of a good prank. The art of the bait-and-switch meme endures. It’s April Fool’s Day, so today, we’re diving into the evolution of these memes. And what makes a meme prank actually stick around. Ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into it. Before we talk about what makes a good bait-and-switch meme, let’s get into where they even came from. For today’s internet history lesson, we’re going back in time, before TikTok, before Vine, may she rest in peace, and before YouTube, to an era when the internet was simpler and darker. Let’s open a new tab: the internet forum wild west. Dr. Bret Strauch teaches at the University of Colorado in Boulder, where he studies digital genres and digital writing, also known as the rhetoric of memes. He’s gonna break down what a bait-and-switch meme is at its core.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bait-and-switch memes are fairly simple, like when you look at it from a genre perspective, usually you have some sort of setup that is directing your expectation towards one thing and then it flips and subverts that expectation, once we either scroll down or click on something or jump to a new video, something to that effect.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What were the proto bait-and-switch memes like? Like before the Rickroll, where were they taking place? How did they work?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the analog era, before we get to our digital internet era, we have culture jammers and all they’re doing is taking a traditional sort of company advertisements and subverting them. So you would see something like, uh, Joe Camel, um, from the Camel cigarettes, but they would subvert the messaging, sort of pointing out some ideological problem or ethical problem. And so instead of Joe Camel they get an image using the camel likeness, but as Joe Chemo sort of pointing out the health effects of cigarettes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The first internet forums have been around since the 70s and 80s. This culture of posting and messaging didn’t become widespread until the 90s. The early forums and chat rooms didn’t have anything close to the moderation and rules that we have on social media today. That’s when we started to see the first bait-and-switch memes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve seen people talk about the early internet forums of the late 90s, early 2000s as almost like. This unmoderated last frontier. We had an episode on political online history where we referred to that time period as “the bronze age of the internet.” Can you describe what this era of forums was like and what that meant for meme culture?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel this early era so like we get like 4chan but there’s also other sites like somethingawful.com, rotten.com, (please don’t go to those sites) where a lot of this sort of proto-internet meme behavior is happening. And one of the things that we see in this early era is that it’s largely gate-kept in a way. We have a much smaller, more niche audience for these memes. And it’s usually driven through more, obviously, masculine sensibilities and sort of this gross-out culture. And there’s a little bit of a prank culture thing going on as well. We see a lot of shock sites. This is like earlier internet, like 2002, where people would send links to what essentially were just pornographic images as a form of hazing. And a lot people found this funny, but some people were also found it disturbing as well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of these shock images, which we will not name here, involves…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…a human orifice that is enlarged, so to speak, and usually we get sent like this file and people would click on it and then they would see this sort of grotesque image. Now, some people might laugh at that, but I think the people that found it funny were the people sending it, not necessarily the people receiving it in all cases. But also we see how like This fits this sort of frat boy gross out. Sort of community building, so to speak. I wouldn’t necessarily, it’s a community I’d want to be in, but it definitely has this sort of social function in those groups.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how do we go from that horrific image macro that Brett tactfully described to the family-friendly wholesome rickroll? Let’s open a new tab: pranks in the age of YouTube.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Picture this, it’s 2007. You’re dressed in your most obscure band tee and skinniest skinny jeans, brand new Blackberry tucked in your back pocket. You’re on the family desktop, just made your first Facebook account. You’re scrolling through your feed, poking your friends, and you come across a post that says, “Grand Theft Auto 4 trailer just dropped, watch here.” You love GTA. You’ve been waiting for this. So you click it and…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip of “Never Gonna Give You Up” song] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Never gonna give you up. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Never gonna let you down. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Never gonna run around and desert you.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You just got rickrolled. That’s exactly what happened to countless people that year. A teenager posted a link on 4chan claiming that it was a link to the highly anticipated trailer. When unsuspecting digital bystanders clicked it, they were surprised with a video of Rick Astley’s 1987 banger, “Never Gonna Give You Up.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip of “Never Gonna Give You Up” song]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Never gonna make you cry\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so the rickroll was born.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The change from sort of this gross out humor meme into something that’s more family friendly, I think comes along with the fact that internet platforms and social media platforms became much more accessible beyond sort of that initial niche computer nerd culture that we see. And so as part of ways in which the community functions, they wanna share. Like, if you receive it, it might be annoying, but I think at some point we find it funny. Where something that’s more gross out, that’s not going to have as much wide appeal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And rickrolling really took off. The hacktivist collective Anonymous protested against the Church of Scientology by blasting “Never Gonna Give You Up” on boomboxes outside of their headquarters. Radiohead announced their new album and posted the download link, only to rickroll everyone. For April Fool’s Day in 2008, YouTube made all of the links on the site’s page lead to “Never Gonna Give You Up,” rickrolling the world. And then for the annual Macy’s Thanksgiving Parade that year, Rick Astley himself appeared on a float and performed what was, at the time, possibly the most widely televised rickroll in the world. Rickrolling was a cultural phenomenon. It was also the last time everyone was on the same internet, before we were siloed by algorithms.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re still at a moment in our media landscape where we’re still sharing media. We have TV shows we’re all watching. We have broadcast television. And even though people can create and share their own content, we don’t see as many content creators and so a lot of the shared cultural texts we have helps build toward this moment where, hey, we can share this meme because people know the reference. We’re not all listening to our own Spotify playlists, right? We’re all consuming the shows that we want on Netflix. We have the shared culture, which helps sort of propagate the fact that we have a meme that’s sort of ubiquitous, at least in the Western hemisphere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What was so appealing about the rickroll? Like, why did that work so well?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Coming out of the 90s, there was a little bit of this 80s nostalgia, which we see building up in which now we see huge 80s nostalgia. There’s this sort of absurdity of the 80s era and its music that sort of plays into the absurdity of this internet prank, essentially.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And no other bait-and-switch meme from that early YouTube era took off the same way. There was the Trololo guy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Singing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a clip of a Russian singer performing in the 70s. There was also You’ve Been Gnomed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio of animated gnome character]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m gnot a gnelf!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m gnot a gnoblin! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m a gnome!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which was this video of an animated gnome laughing at the viewer while text flashes across the screen. It says, predictably…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio of animated gnome character] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you’ve been gnomed!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Both of these memes functioned like a rickroll. You click a link expecting one thing and, instead, you get another. But there was a historical framework for rickrolling. It was a huge 80s bop coming back around. The other memes lacked that, so they didn’t have the same cultural impact as rickrolling. By the early 2010s, a new challenger had arisen. This underlying media, as Bret put it, was ripe with meme material. Let’s talk about \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> after this break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what makes a good bait-and-switch meme? What makes that prank work so well? Obviously, we’re opening a new tab: \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and meme dada-ism. Memes were getting weirder, more absurd, and few memes defined the 2010s like \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from Bee Movie] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Barry: How should I start it? You like jazz? No, that’s no good. Here she comes. Speak, you fool!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip of Jerry Seinfeld on the Tonight Show]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jerry Seinfeld: The bee seemed to have a thing for the girl. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy Fallon: Yeah \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jerry Seinfeld: And we don’t really want to pursue that as an idea in children’s entertainment.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Jerry Seinfeld on The Tonight Show, acknowledging the taboo interspecies romantic undertones in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Spike Feresten, the screenwriter who co-wrote the movie, got a kick out of writing the pairing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s a funny anecdote from the room: so we were writing this in New York. You know, I was, I was doing a show in LA, but I would fly, you know, to New York every couple of weeks and we’d sit in this big room, Jerry’s office, and work on this. And to us, these characters were just two characters, it was just Barry and Vanessa. And then every once in a while we’d go, hey, that Barry’s a bee. He’s this big. So when you say they shake hands or they walk, you can’t, we can’t keep treating them like two characters who are friends, like Jerry and Elaine, which is kind of how we treated them. We were writing them like Jerry and Elaine forgetting about the size disparity and the species disparity. Yeah, and that’s kind of why it came out the way it came out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The romance is just one of many absurd plot lines in the movie. Like, we’ve got bees going to human court to sue humanity for the exploitation of their labor. But the movie was way too ahead of its time. Critics hated it. It was marketed as a kids’ movie. And instead, it was this story about freeing the bees and seizing the means of production of honey and also toeing the line of bee-stiality. But that’s why it was such good meme material. Here’s Bret Strauch again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People, when they originally went to see the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, were expecting a kid’s Bug’s Life or Ants movie, and they got something much more serious. And so in a way, like the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is a bait and switch by itself. The trailers are selling it as sort of like a kid’s movie, but really there’s a lot more adult oriented content that people were not expecting. And so the fact that it sort of functioned as a bait-and-switch by itself made sense that people started using it as just a way to troll people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tumblr latched onto the movie starting in 2011, fawning over the film’s poetic opening lines.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from Bee Movie] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Narrator: According to all known laws of aviation, there is no way that a bee should be able to fly. Its wings are too small to get its fat little body off the ground. The bee, of course, flies anyway, because bees don’t care what humans think is impossible.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tumblr users were totally sincere about it, calling the lines inspirational. By 2013, the meme exploded. People were starting to realize how absurd the movie really was. Screenshots from the film became reaction memes. Edits of Seinfeld but with characters from \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> went super viral. And then there’s the fan fiction, which is still going today. I told Spike about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, there is a real moment on Tumblr with people kind of sincerely appreciating the dialog in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the narration. Then people kind-of ironically started posting the memes, which I’m sure you’ve seen. It broke containment, moved to Twitter, and then it reached the peak of virality, which is sexy fan fiction.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, it did.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, I’m sorry I’m breaking this to you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know about that. This is good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I am just going to read you a few tags from Archive of Our Own, from \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> fanfics that were written this like this year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The tags include Vanessa X Barry, typical, Mega Mind X Barry Benson, Top Barry -Bottom Mega Mind, inter-species relationships, hive worship, and improper use of honey drizzler.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you make of the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> smut?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, smut is a funny, funny word to use from the 50s: smut. Um, it, it kind of plays into what I would love to do. I mean, like, hypothetically, and this will never happen, but I want to do, uh, six sequels to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> all as a series on Netflix or wherever, 40 minutes apiece, Bee 2, Bee 3, Bee 4 , Bee 5, Bee 6, Bee 7. A lot of time has gone by and we’re going to do our six sequels now. What you just described is one of the areas I really want to dive into, which is that relationship, not the smut, but the fun you could have with a bee dating a woman. I think there’s a lot of comedy there and I think the world has changed and I think you could write that in a way that’s not smut but it also kind of celebrates what the world has done with this and, you know, I don’t think we would go as far as South Park, but kind of do our version of maybe a South Parkian take on \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, because I love their relationship. I love that friendship. And I wonder what those conversations would be like should they explore the idea of dating.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I mean, look, if you ever need a writer’s room, there’s a bunch of people in Archive of Our Own who have already written some scenarios.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s cool. No, that’s great. I mean, like any other stuff, you know, you put it out into the world and the world can do with it what it wants. That’s what’s nice about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2013, a Facebook user posted the entire script on someone else’s Facebook wall. That was the start of the bait-and-switch\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script. For the next few years, you might unwittingly open a link to a comment or post only for your phone to freeze and crash because it’s trying to load the entire \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script. It was like a more devious Rickroll. It wreaked havoc across the internet. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Group chats were bombarded with the 9,000-word wall of text. Any email with an urgent subject line could just contain the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script. It even moved offline. One college student pranked his classmates by spending 12 hours writing out the entire script on a chalkboard. The coolest kids in 2016 wore T-shirts printed with the entire strip. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The meme did eventually slow down though. Phones got better and became capable of loading the whole script. Like rickrolling, surprising your friends with 131 pages of dialogue got old. But then the script was weaponized, again, as a form of protest. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2021, Texas passed the Heartbeat Act, which effectively banned abortion after six weeks. The law allowed anyone to sue abortion providers and individuals who sought abortions after the six-week limit. The organization, Texas Right to Life, set up an anonymous tip site to report anyone who violated the Heart Beat Act. To protest TikTok users spammed the site with Shrek porn, lurid fan fiction, and the one and only \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script. Protesters did it again when Missouri opened an online forum to report clinics that provide gender-affirming care. And then, again, when Indiana’s attorney general launched a forum to support schools that teach gender ideology. And then again, when the Trump administration partnered with a far-right group to report schools that had DEI efforts. Any time the government or an organization working with it opens some kind of citizen surveillance tool, it’s a target for \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script dumps. Spike and other \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> writers are big fans of this practice.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, we love it, absolutely love it. It gets passed around, you know, that it’s doing something good for the world, it always makes you feel good. And that we don’t have to be any part of it, that someone’s taking it and just disrupting, like I said, dropping an absurdity bomb on some bad cause. That just makes you feel good. Do it as much as you want. If I can help you, I will help in whatever way, but you’re doing a fine job by yourself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s funny because back in 2017, for the 10-year anniversary of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, New York Mag wrote this extensive history of the meme and traced the rise and fall of it. And back then, it was like, okay, there was a good year of no \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> memes. And they questioned whether the meme was dead. That was almost 10 years ago. And the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script keeps coming back. The meme has evolved so much, but the core of it is still the script, the dialogue. Why do you think it survives?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s the writing. I think its the weirdness. You know, it’s funny. That movie was out of sync with culture in 2006 and I think still is out of synch with kind of cultural norms in a way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">uh bee- human, you know…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I know, but it’s still kind of hard to wrap your head around that. You know what I mean? I mean i don’t think anybody really thinks about dating a bee, so I don’t think there has been… and we like bees. To us, the bees are, you know, when you think about the planet, keeping the planet healthy, the bees are one of our canaries in the coal mine, if you will, like, how the bee is doing? I don’t know if you do this, but when you see a bee, kind of, dying on the sidewalk, don’t you get nervous. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh yeah I’m like, let me help it, yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, is this global warming? What is doing this? So we have this special reverence for this insect that stings us occasionally, but still we like them a lot because they make this very sweet, gooey substance that we enjoy putting in our teas. But again, it’s not for me or us to say, it’s you’d have to ask the people who love this movie what they love about it. We’re just the people that put it out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script is the gift that keeps on giving. But other bait-and-switch memes have also blown up. And unlike the trusty rickroll or the evergreen \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, this new generation of internet pranks blow up fast and burn out quickly. They don’t last. Let’s get into that in one last tab: the short form vertical video revolution. Before the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script was weaponized for protest the way that it is today, it had kind of peaked by 2016. And a slew of bait-and-switch memes cycled in and out of relevance. The primary force behind this rapid-fire meme lifespan? TikTok. In 2020, we had Get Stick Bugged. Watching a Minecraft compilation? Surprise, it cuts to a clip of a dancing stick bug.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Funky music playing\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But that fizzled out by the end of the year. In 2022, TikTok users lured viewers in with videos about juicy celebrity gossip. And then…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Moulin Rouge movie] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gitchi Gitchi ya ya da da\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…you got krissed! It’s a clip of Kris Jenner shimmying in this sequined shirt and bow tie set to a sped up version of “Lady Marmalade” from Moulin Rouge. The Cut said that “getting krissed” is the natural evolution of rickrolling. And then in 2023, we had the Josh Hutcherson whistle edits. Here’s one of my favorite ones. It’s video from inside a plane. The caption says, “Guys, the view is incredible!” The video pans to the closed window, and a hand reaches out to open the shade. And then…[music playing] The view through the window is just a closeup of Josh Hutcherson’s face from a 2014 fan edit set to a cover of Flo Rida’s “Whistle.” Polygon said that this trend was TikTok’s rickroll. And then at the end of last year, another rickroll successor blew up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip of “We Are Charlie Kirk Song”] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We are Charlie Kirk, we carry…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is an AI-generated ballad about Charlie Kirk, which was first posted to YouTube and streaming platforms days after his death. It’s total AI slop, but unfortunately, very catchy. Like the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script, it went viral at first out of sincerity. People listened to it as a tribute to Charlie Kirk. And then it became a meme. We’re talking remixes, Mongolian throat singing covers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip of “We Are Charlie Kirk Song”] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We are Charlie Kirk. We carry the flame. We fight for the…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And of course, pranks, like connecting to public bluetooth speakers and blasting cowbell dance remixes of “We Are Charlie Kirk.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio of “We Are Charlie Kirk” playing over loud speaker]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s Bret’s take.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of them, it’s clear that there’s some sort of musical component people can latch onto and all the music itself is sort of absurd or ridiculous in a way. Whether it’s been altered and sped up like the we-are-krissed” or just sort of that funky beat that you’ve-been-stick-bugged has, especially like with the “We are Charlie Kirk.” There’s more levels of absurdity being that it was AI written. So this pathos is literally being manufactured. It’s not something that’s like, necessarily human-generated like emotion being generated, and so it just makes it rife for this type of inversion or subversion.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. We just speed ran so many trends, and none of them really lasted more than six months. Maybe the Charlie Kirk one will last longer because of the current state of the world, but generally, why is the turnover rate for memes so high now?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there’s a few reasons for this. The first is just the media context and media environment. We’re not sharing the same stuff that we did as a culture. It’s much more small niche cultures where these things are spreading. Another element to this that I believe is important is that it’s easier to create these than it was 15, 20 years ago. And so now more are being created. And so they’re essentially eating themselves out of existence. Um, so as soon as a new mean comes out, um, at least in the early mid 2000s, it stuck around because it took a little bit more technological know-how. You didn’t have the production software and access to it that you do now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I noticed that almost all bait-and-switch meme trends are on TikTok now, maybe Reels. But no one is pulling off a rickroll with YouTube anymore. I saw a video of someone rickrolling their friend by sending a TikTok link, which me makes me wonder, did YouTube ads ruin the rickroll? Kind of spoils the surprise.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, YouTube ads ruin everything. For humor to work, timing is critical, right? And so those ads really disrupt like the genre of humor that’s happening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Would the original rickroll work with modern content consumption habits? When we consume content, it’s a lot of times happening passively to us, algorithmically served, instead of us like actively seeking it out or actually clicking links.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t think so. We need that interaction, I think, for the rickroll to be successful. And it feels like at least it was another person presenting this to us. And now it’s sort of the algorithm is serving it up to a plate on us and we’re not finding these things. And so I think what makes a lot of media content special, whether it’s memes, movies, songs, is it’s stuff that we find, not that someone else or something else finds for us. And so… innately, there’s going to be less meaning for a lot of that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The meme turnover rate is so high that no internet prank really sticks around long enough to rival or recreate the magic of the rickroll. The very format of the rickroll is limiting, especially in today’s digital landscape. Even rickrolling itself is difficult to pull off today because internet habits have changed. But what has endured as a prank is the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">script. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have this take and it’s that the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script is the ultimate bait-and-switch because it’s purely text. There’s no image macro, there’s no video lead-in with ads or that you have to wait to load to ruin the prank. The joke itself is so malleable. It can be dumped in comment sections, in government tip lines or turned into an image macro and then deep fried, or just read by that TikTok AI voice in 2X speed, which makes it funnier. Do you have any thoughts on this, the flexibility of this meme?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, that’s why I think we see certain memes that at least are being iterated and changed upon more, and some that don’t seem to change as much. And so with it being all text, it’s really easy to adapt all text to different formats. I think my favorite of the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script ones is where they do the crawl from Star Wars, and we get the intro to the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And so the easier that it is to manipulate that initial form of media, like, so text is super easy, makes it much easier to put it into different places, different platforms and distribute it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> came out nearly 20 years ago. Script dumping started in 2013. Last year, 12 years after that Facebook user posted the entire script on someone else’s wall, the DOGE-led government HR email was pelted with \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> scripts. At the request of Elon Musk, all federal employees were asked to email the Office of Personnel Management with five tasks they accomplished that week. On x, Musk posted, “Failure to respond will be taken as a resignation.” The email leaked online, and internet users responded on behalf of federal employees with pages and pages of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> dialog. Spike was thrilled.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s pretty exciting that anybody’s even talking about it. Really! I mean, you have to look at it, we look at that way. I think that people are still talking about this movie from what 2006 that we made, you know, in that way and that it, that it has these second and third lives. You know, we get excited that people still watching that movie and enjoying it. Like, it’s flattering. That’s the only way to really put it that this movie hasn’t been forgotten. It hasn’t disappeared into a canyon of content and gone forever, that it comes up over and over again in generally a good way. And, you know, if people are making fun of it, that’s fine, too. That’s what we do. We make fun of things you can make fun of us. Go ahead.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You heard Spike, go forth and prank. Let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode was produced by our senior editor, Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. Our team includes producer Maya Cueva, additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer, audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Email us at closealltabs@kqed.org. Follow us on Instagram @CloseAllTabsPod or TikTok @CloseallTabs. And join our Discord. We’re in the Close All tabs channel at discord.gg/kqed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Bee Movie, \"We Are Charlie Kirk,\" and the Enduring Bait-and-Switch Meme | KQED",
"description": "In 2007, Bee Movie hit theaters with a strange plot and was considered a box office flop. Nearly two decades later, it’s somehow more relevant than ever, not because of the movie itself, but because of what happened next. The script became a meme, then a prank, then, eventually, a tool for protest.In this episode, host Morgan Sung traces the evolution of bait-and-switch memes, from early internet shock images to the rise of the “Never Gonna Give You Up” rickroll, all the way to TikTok-era pranks that burn out as quickly as they go viral. Along the way, she talks to Bee Movie co-writer Spike Feresten about how the filmBee Movie became an unlikely internet icon, and to digital rhetoric expert Bret Strauch about what makes a meme actually stick.",
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"socialDescription": "In 2007, Bee Movie hit theaters with a strange plot and was considered a box office flop. Nearly two decades later, it’s somehow more relevant than ever, not because of the movie itself, but because of what happened next. The script became a meme, then a prank, then, eventually, a tool for protest.In this episode, host Morgan Sung traces the evolution of bait-and-switch memes, from early internet shock images to the rise of the “Never Gonna Give You Up” rickroll, all the way to TikTok-era pranks that burn out as quickly as they go viral. Along the way, she talks to Bee Movie co-writer Spike Feresten about how the filmBee Movie became an unlikely internet icon, and to digital rhetoric expert Bret Strauch about what makes a meme actually stick.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to all known laws of aviation, there is no way a bee \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">should be able to fly. Its wings are too small to get its fat little body off the ground. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The bee, of course, flies anyway because bees don’t care what humans think is impossible.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2007, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hit theaters with a strange plot and was considered a box office flop. Nearly two decades later, it’s somehow more relevant than ever, not because of the movie itself, but because of what happened next. The script became a meme, then a prank, then, eventually, a tool for protest.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, host Morgan Sung traces the evolution of bait-and-switch memes, from early internet shock images to the rise of the “Never Gonna Give You Up” rickroll, all the way to TikTok-era pranks that burn out as quickly as they go viral. Along the way, she talks to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">co-writer Spike Feresten about how the film\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> became an unlikely internet icon, and to digital rhetoric expert Bret Strauch about what makes a meme actually stick.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1407643406\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/spikeferesten/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Spike Feresten\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, screenwriter and comedian\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.colorado.edu/pwr/bret-strauch-phd\">Bret Strauch\u003c/a>, assistant professor of digital media, University of Colorado Boulder\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZdGGIT3fu0Pad9itT8HZMGkIwtYFQBS1vH5j21rN2Ns/edit?usp=sharing\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Behind the scenes content\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> on the making of this episode!\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wbur.org/endlessthread/2021/10/08/memes-never-gonna-give-you-up\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MEMES, Part 3: Gotta make you understand\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Endless Thread\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/11/a-complete-history-of-bee-movies-many-many-memes.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Complete History of Bee Movie’s Many, Many Memes\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Paris Martineau, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Intelligencer\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://gamerant.com/bee-movie-meme/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why Did Bee Movie Become A Meme?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Joshua Kristian McCoy, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">GameRant\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.polygon.com/23984032/josh-hutcherson-whistle-edit-meme-trend-explained/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Josh Hutcherson ‘Whistle’ edit meme, explained\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ana Diaz, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Polygon\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.themarysue.com/charlie-kirk-ai-song/\">‘His courage our own’: This Charlie Kirk tribute song is blowing up on Spotify. Was it made by a human—or AI?\u003c/a> — Braden Bjella, \u003ci>The Mary Sue\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to all known laws of aviation, there is no way a bee should be able to fly. Its wings are too small to get its fat little body off the ground. The bee, of course, flies anyway because bees don’t care what humans think is impossible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Those are the iconic opening lines of the 2007 film \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And the voice you heard reading those lines.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Spike Feresten. Is that really it? Is that what we wrote?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Spike is a comedian and screenwriter who’s worked on Seinfeld, written for David Letterman, hosted his own show, and co-wrote the one and only \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. You know, the one starring Jerry Seinfelt as a talking Bee.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from Bee Movie] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Barry: I’m going out. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Adam: Out? Out where? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Barry: Outside the hive. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Crowd: *Gasps*\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What if the bees discovered the humans were taking their honey? That was one big idea that kind of unlocked a little bit of the plot, but the kind of larger idea was, what would happen if a bee didn’t want to just go into the honey business? Isn’t there, is there something more?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hijinks ensue. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">is a surprisingly deep story about exploitation, uncompensated labor, the vital environmental role that bees play as pollinators, and what it takes to break out of society’s mold. That is, if society is a honeybee hive in Manhattan. Oh, and the bee kind of falls in love with a human woman. It’s a whole thing. Spike said that Steven Spielberg asked Jerry Seinfeld if he wanted to do an animated movie. And Jerry Seinfeld said,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“What about a movie about bees and we’ll call it Bee Movie.” And he went, “Sold!” It’s the shortest pitch in like film history. And then Jerry called us up the next day and said, I just sold a movie to Spielberg/Dreamworks Animation about bees. And we were like, what is it about? And he goes, that’s what we have to figure out. The very first thing we did was start reading about bees and we came across this fact. It was like, oh, this is kind of remarkable that these guys can’t fly in rain and that their bodies aren’t right and it’s hard for them to fly and everything in kind of fodder for, you know, the world of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was Jerry’s big comeback after Seinfeld, which had wrapped up about five years before development on \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> started. And the movie did well at the box office, but among film critics, it was a flop. Kids loved it, but it didn’t compare to the Shrek franchise or Ratatouille, which dominated early 2000s animation. The plot was weird. The jokes skewed more adult, and the whole romantic vibe between a human woman and a honeybee, maybe a bit too out there for the general public. Jerry even joked about it a couple years ago. Here he is on the Tonight Show:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip of Jerry Seinfeld on the Tonight Show] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I apologize for what seems to be a certain, uncomfortable, subtle, sexual aspect of the Bee Movie which really was not intentional. But after it came out, I realized, this is really not appropriate for children.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The world moved on. But today, almost 20 years later, Bee Movie is a cult classic. Because the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script itself has become one of the quintessential internet pranks. Annoyed with someone? Dump the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script in their comments. Protesting against the government’s anti-trans bathroom complaint forms? Spam the tip line with the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script. Here’s Spike again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We couldn’t quite understand, are they making fun of us, which is fine, or are they really celebrating us, or is it are they just taking our weird thing and doing weird things with it? There’s simple ideas like weaponized absurdity, you know, so when some horrible right-winger has got some sort of hotline to expose the trans community or something, and people just load in the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script. To us, like, that’s fantastic. We’re not even gonna engage you in conversation. We’re just gonna drop an absurdity bomb in there and just stop it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script remains a top-tier internet prank. It’s up there with Rickrolling. This is a genre known as bait-and-switch memes. The internet has changed drastically since the days of pranking people with “Never Gonna Give You Up.” And memes have changed, too. Imagine trying to explain today’s trends to someone in 2007. But what hasn’t changed about internet culture is the love of a good prank. The art of the bait-and-switch meme endures. It’s April Fool’s Day, so today, we’re diving into the evolution of these memes. And what makes a meme prank actually stick around. Ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into it. Before we talk about what makes a good bait-and-switch meme, let’s get into where they even came from. For today’s internet history lesson, we’re going back in time, before TikTok, before Vine, may she rest in peace, and before YouTube, to an era when the internet was simpler and darker. Let’s open a new tab: the internet forum wild west. Dr. Bret Strauch teaches at the University of Colorado in Boulder, where he studies digital genres and digital writing, also known as the rhetoric of memes. He’s gonna break down what a bait-and-switch meme is at its core.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bait-and-switch memes are fairly simple, like when you look at it from a genre perspective, usually you have some sort of setup that is directing your expectation towards one thing and then it flips and subverts that expectation, once we either scroll down or click on something or jump to a new video, something to that effect.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What were the proto bait-and-switch memes like? Like before the Rickroll, where were they taking place? How did they work?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the analog era, before we get to our digital internet era, we have culture jammers and all they’re doing is taking a traditional sort of company advertisements and subverting them. So you would see something like, uh, Joe Camel, um, from the Camel cigarettes, but they would subvert the messaging, sort of pointing out some ideological problem or ethical problem. And so instead of Joe Camel they get an image using the camel likeness, but as Joe Chemo sort of pointing out the health effects of cigarettes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The first internet forums have been around since the 70s and 80s. This culture of posting and messaging didn’t become widespread until the 90s. The early forums and chat rooms didn’t have anything close to the moderation and rules that we have on social media today. That’s when we started to see the first bait-and-switch memes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve seen people talk about the early internet forums of the late 90s, early 2000s as almost like. This unmoderated last frontier. We had an episode on political online history where we referred to that time period as “the bronze age of the internet.” Can you describe what this era of forums was like and what that meant for meme culture?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel this early era so like we get like 4chan but there’s also other sites like somethingawful.com, rotten.com, (please don’t go to those sites) where a lot of this sort of proto-internet meme behavior is happening. And one of the things that we see in this early era is that it’s largely gate-kept in a way. We have a much smaller, more niche audience for these memes. And it’s usually driven through more, obviously, masculine sensibilities and sort of this gross-out culture. And there’s a little bit of a prank culture thing going on as well. We see a lot of shock sites. This is like earlier internet, like 2002, where people would send links to what essentially were just pornographic images as a form of hazing. And a lot people found this funny, but some people were also found it disturbing as well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of these shock images, which we will not name here, involves…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…a human orifice that is enlarged, so to speak, and usually we get sent like this file and people would click on it and then they would see this sort of grotesque image. Now, some people might laugh at that, but I think the people that found it funny were the people sending it, not necessarily the people receiving it in all cases. But also we see how like This fits this sort of frat boy gross out. Sort of community building, so to speak. I wouldn’t necessarily, it’s a community I’d want to be in, but it definitely has this sort of social function in those groups.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how do we go from that horrific image macro that Brett tactfully described to the family-friendly wholesome rickroll? Let’s open a new tab: pranks in the age of YouTube.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Picture this, it’s 2007. You’re dressed in your most obscure band tee and skinniest skinny jeans, brand new Blackberry tucked in your back pocket. You’re on the family desktop, just made your first Facebook account. You’re scrolling through your feed, poking your friends, and you come across a post that says, “Grand Theft Auto 4 trailer just dropped, watch here.” You love GTA. You’ve been waiting for this. So you click it and…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip of “Never Gonna Give You Up” song] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Never gonna give you up. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Never gonna let you down. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Never gonna run around and desert you.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You just got rickrolled. That’s exactly what happened to countless people that year. A teenager posted a link on 4chan claiming that it was a link to the highly anticipated trailer. When unsuspecting digital bystanders clicked it, they were surprised with a video of Rick Astley’s 1987 banger, “Never Gonna Give You Up.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip of “Never Gonna Give You Up” song]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Never gonna make you cry\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so the rickroll was born.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The change from sort of this gross out humor meme into something that’s more family friendly, I think comes along with the fact that internet platforms and social media platforms became much more accessible beyond sort of that initial niche computer nerd culture that we see. And so as part of ways in which the community functions, they wanna share. Like, if you receive it, it might be annoying, but I think at some point we find it funny. Where something that’s more gross out, that’s not going to have as much wide appeal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And rickrolling really took off. The hacktivist collective Anonymous protested against the Church of Scientology by blasting “Never Gonna Give You Up” on boomboxes outside of their headquarters. Radiohead announced their new album and posted the download link, only to rickroll everyone. For April Fool’s Day in 2008, YouTube made all of the links on the site’s page lead to “Never Gonna Give You Up,” rickrolling the world. And then for the annual Macy’s Thanksgiving Parade that year, Rick Astley himself appeared on a float and performed what was, at the time, possibly the most widely televised rickroll in the world. Rickrolling was a cultural phenomenon. It was also the last time everyone was on the same internet, before we were siloed by algorithms.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re still at a moment in our media landscape where we’re still sharing media. We have TV shows we’re all watching. We have broadcast television. And even though people can create and share their own content, we don’t see as many content creators and so a lot of the shared cultural texts we have helps build toward this moment where, hey, we can share this meme because people know the reference. We’re not all listening to our own Spotify playlists, right? We’re all consuming the shows that we want on Netflix. We have the shared culture, which helps sort of propagate the fact that we have a meme that’s sort of ubiquitous, at least in the Western hemisphere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What was so appealing about the rickroll? Like, why did that work so well?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Coming out of the 90s, there was a little bit of this 80s nostalgia, which we see building up in which now we see huge 80s nostalgia. There’s this sort of absurdity of the 80s era and its music that sort of plays into the absurdity of this internet prank, essentially.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And no other bait-and-switch meme from that early YouTube era took off the same way. There was the Trololo guy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Singing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a clip of a Russian singer performing in the 70s. There was also You’ve Been Gnomed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio of animated gnome character]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m gnot a gnelf!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m gnot a gnoblin! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m a gnome!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which was this video of an animated gnome laughing at the viewer while text flashes across the screen. It says, predictably…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio of animated gnome character] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you’ve been gnomed!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Both of these memes functioned like a rickroll. You click a link expecting one thing and, instead, you get another. But there was a historical framework for rickrolling. It was a huge 80s bop coming back around. The other memes lacked that, so they didn’t have the same cultural impact as rickrolling. By the early 2010s, a new challenger had arisen. This underlying media, as Bret put it, was ripe with meme material. Let’s talk about \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> after this break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what makes a good bait-and-switch meme? What makes that prank work so well? Obviously, we’re opening a new tab: \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and meme dada-ism. Memes were getting weirder, more absurd, and few memes defined the 2010s like \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from Bee Movie] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Barry: How should I start it? You like jazz? No, that’s no good. Here she comes. Speak, you fool!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip of Jerry Seinfeld on the Tonight Show]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jerry Seinfeld: The bee seemed to have a thing for the girl. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy Fallon: Yeah \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jerry Seinfeld: And we don’t really want to pursue that as an idea in children’s entertainment.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Jerry Seinfeld on The Tonight Show, acknowledging the taboo interspecies romantic undertones in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Spike Feresten, the screenwriter who co-wrote the movie, got a kick out of writing the pairing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s a funny anecdote from the room: so we were writing this in New York. You know, I was, I was doing a show in LA, but I would fly, you know, to New York every couple of weeks and we’d sit in this big room, Jerry’s office, and work on this. And to us, these characters were just two characters, it was just Barry and Vanessa. And then every once in a while we’d go, hey, that Barry’s a bee. He’s this big. So when you say they shake hands or they walk, you can’t, we can’t keep treating them like two characters who are friends, like Jerry and Elaine, which is kind of how we treated them. We were writing them like Jerry and Elaine forgetting about the size disparity and the species disparity. Yeah, and that’s kind of why it came out the way it came out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The romance is just one of many absurd plot lines in the movie. Like, we’ve got bees going to human court to sue humanity for the exploitation of their labor. But the movie was way too ahead of its time. Critics hated it. It was marketed as a kids’ movie. And instead, it was this story about freeing the bees and seizing the means of production of honey and also toeing the line of bee-stiality. But that’s why it was such good meme material. Here’s Bret Strauch again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People, when they originally went to see the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, were expecting a kid’s Bug’s Life or Ants movie, and they got something much more serious. And so in a way, like the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is a bait and switch by itself. The trailers are selling it as sort of like a kid’s movie, but really there’s a lot more adult oriented content that people were not expecting. And so the fact that it sort of functioned as a bait-and-switch by itself made sense that people started using it as just a way to troll people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tumblr latched onto the movie starting in 2011, fawning over the film’s poetic opening lines.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from Bee Movie] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Narrator: According to all known laws of aviation, there is no way that a bee should be able to fly. Its wings are too small to get its fat little body off the ground. The bee, of course, flies anyway, because bees don’t care what humans think is impossible.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tumblr users were totally sincere about it, calling the lines inspirational. By 2013, the meme exploded. People were starting to realize how absurd the movie really was. Screenshots from the film became reaction memes. Edits of Seinfeld but with characters from \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> went super viral. And then there’s the fan fiction, which is still going today. I told Spike about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, there is a real moment on Tumblr with people kind of sincerely appreciating the dialog in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the narration. Then people kind-of ironically started posting the memes, which I’m sure you’ve seen. It broke containment, moved to Twitter, and then it reached the peak of virality, which is sexy fan fiction.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, it did.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, I’m sorry I’m breaking this to you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know about that. This is good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I am just going to read you a few tags from Archive of Our Own, from \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> fanfics that were written this like this year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The tags include Vanessa X Barry, typical, Mega Mind X Barry Benson, Top Barry -Bottom Mega Mind, inter-species relationships, hive worship, and improper use of honey drizzler.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you make of the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> smut?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, smut is a funny, funny word to use from the 50s: smut. Um, it, it kind of plays into what I would love to do. I mean, like, hypothetically, and this will never happen, but I want to do, uh, six sequels to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> all as a series on Netflix or wherever, 40 minutes apiece, Bee 2, Bee 3, Bee 4 , Bee 5, Bee 6, Bee 7. A lot of time has gone by and we’re going to do our six sequels now. What you just described is one of the areas I really want to dive into, which is that relationship, not the smut, but the fun you could have with a bee dating a woman. I think there’s a lot of comedy there and I think the world has changed and I think you could write that in a way that’s not smut but it also kind of celebrates what the world has done with this and, you know, I don’t think we would go as far as South Park, but kind of do our version of maybe a South Parkian take on \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, because I love their relationship. I love that friendship. And I wonder what those conversations would be like should they explore the idea of dating.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I mean, look, if you ever need a writer’s room, there’s a bunch of people in Archive of Our Own who have already written some scenarios.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s cool. No, that’s great. I mean, like any other stuff, you know, you put it out into the world and the world can do with it what it wants. That’s what’s nice about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2013, a Facebook user posted the entire script on someone else’s Facebook wall. That was the start of the bait-and-switch\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script. For the next few years, you might unwittingly open a link to a comment or post only for your phone to freeze and crash because it’s trying to load the entire \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script. It was like a more devious Rickroll. It wreaked havoc across the internet. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Group chats were bombarded with the 9,000-word wall of text. Any email with an urgent subject line could just contain the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script. It even moved offline. One college student pranked his classmates by spending 12 hours writing out the entire script on a chalkboard. The coolest kids in 2016 wore T-shirts printed with the entire strip. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The meme did eventually slow down though. Phones got better and became capable of loading the whole script. Like rickrolling, surprising your friends with 131 pages of dialogue got old. But then the script was weaponized, again, as a form of protest. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2021, Texas passed the Heartbeat Act, which effectively banned abortion after six weeks. The law allowed anyone to sue abortion providers and individuals who sought abortions after the six-week limit. The organization, Texas Right to Life, set up an anonymous tip site to report anyone who violated the Heart Beat Act. To protest TikTok users spammed the site with Shrek porn, lurid fan fiction, and the one and only \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script. Protesters did it again when Missouri opened an online forum to report clinics that provide gender-affirming care. And then, again, when Indiana’s attorney general launched a forum to support schools that teach gender ideology. And then again, when the Trump administration partnered with a far-right group to report schools that had DEI efforts. Any time the government or an organization working with it opens some kind of citizen surveillance tool, it’s a target for \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script dumps. Spike and other \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> writers are big fans of this practice.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, we love it, absolutely love it. It gets passed around, you know, that it’s doing something good for the world, it always makes you feel good. And that we don’t have to be any part of it, that someone’s taking it and just disrupting, like I said, dropping an absurdity bomb on some bad cause. That just makes you feel good. Do it as much as you want. If I can help you, I will help in whatever way, but you’re doing a fine job by yourself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s funny because back in 2017, for the 10-year anniversary of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, New York Mag wrote this extensive history of the meme and traced the rise and fall of it. And back then, it was like, okay, there was a good year of no \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> memes. And they questioned whether the meme was dead. That was almost 10 years ago. And the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script keeps coming back. The meme has evolved so much, but the core of it is still the script, the dialogue. Why do you think it survives?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s the writing. I think its the weirdness. You know, it’s funny. That movie was out of sync with culture in 2006 and I think still is out of synch with kind of cultural norms in a way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">uh bee- human, you know…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I know, but it’s still kind of hard to wrap your head around that. You know what I mean? I mean i don’t think anybody really thinks about dating a bee, so I don’t think there has been… and we like bees. To us, the bees are, you know, when you think about the planet, keeping the planet healthy, the bees are one of our canaries in the coal mine, if you will, like, how the bee is doing? I don’t know if you do this, but when you see a bee, kind of, dying on the sidewalk, don’t you get nervous. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh yeah I’m like, let me help it, yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, is this global warming? What is doing this? So we have this special reverence for this insect that stings us occasionally, but still we like them a lot because they make this very sweet, gooey substance that we enjoy putting in our teas. But again, it’s not for me or us to say, it’s you’d have to ask the people who love this movie what they love about it. We’re just the people that put it out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script is the gift that keeps on giving. But other bait-and-switch memes have also blown up. And unlike the trusty rickroll or the evergreen \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, this new generation of internet pranks blow up fast and burn out quickly. They don’t last. Let’s get into that in one last tab: the short form vertical video revolution. Before the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script was weaponized for protest the way that it is today, it had kind of peaked by 2016. And a slew of bait-and-switch memes cycled in and out of relevance. The primary force behind this rapid-fire meme lifespan? TikTok. In 2020, we had Get Stick Bugged. Watching a Minecraft compilation? Surprise, it cuts to a clip of a dancing stick bug.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Funky music playing\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But that fizzled out by the end of the year. In 2022, TikTok users lured viewers in with videos about juicy celebrity gossip. And then…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Moulin Rouge movie] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gitchi Gitchi ya ya da da\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…you got krissed! It’s a clip of Kris Jenner shimmying in this sequined shirt and bow tie set to a sped up version of “Lady Marmalade” from Moulin Rouge. The Cut said that “getting krissed” is the natural evolution of rickrolling. And then in 2023, we had the Josh Hutcherson whistle edits. Here’s one of my favorite ones. It’s video from inside a plane. The caption says, “Guys, the view is incredible!” The video pans to the closed window, and a hand reaches out to open the shade. And then…[music playing] The view through the window is just a closeup of Josh Hutcherson’s face from a 2014 fan edit set to a cover of Flo Rida’s “Whistle.” Polygon said that this trend was TikTok’s rickroll. And then at the end of last year, another rickroll successor blew up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip of “We Are Charlie Kirk Song”] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We are Charlie Kirk, we carry…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is an AI-generated ballad about Charlie Kirk, which was first posted to YouTube and streaming platforms days after his death. It’s total AI slop, but unfortunately, very catchy. Like the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script, it went viral at first out of sincerity. People listened to it as a tribute to Charlie Kirk. And then it became a meme. We’re talking remixes, Mongolian throat singing covers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip of “We Are Charlie Kirk Song”] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We are Charlie Kirk. We carry the flame. We fight for the…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And of course, pranks, like connecting to public bluetooth speakers and blasting cowbell dance remixes of “We Are Charlie Kirk.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio of “We Are Charlie Kirk” playing over loud speaker]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s Bret’s take.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of them, it’s clear that there’s some sort of musical component people can latch onto and all the music itself is sort of absurd or ridiculous in a way. Whether it’s been altered and sped up like the we-are-krissed” or just sort of that funky beat that you’ve-been-stick-bugged has, especially like with the “We are Charlie Kirk.” There’s more levels of absurdity being that it was AI written. So this pathos is literally being manufactured. It’s not something that’s like, necessarily human-generated like emotion being generated, and so it just makes it rife for this type of inversion or subversion.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. We just speed ran so many trends, and none of them really lasted more than six months. Maybe the Charlie Kirk one will last longer because of the current state of the world, but generally, why is the turnover rate for memes so high now?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there’s a few reasons for this. The first is just the media context and media environment. We’re not sharing the same stuff that we did as a culture. It’s much more small niche cultures where these things are spreading. Another element to this that I believe is important is that it’s easier to create these than it was 15, 20 years ago. And so now more are being created. And so they’re essentially eating themselves out of existence. Um, so as soon as a new mean comes out, um, at least in the early mid 2000s, it stuck around because it took a little bit more technological know-how. You didn’t have the production software and access to it that you do now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I noticed that almost all bait-and-switch meme trends are on TikTok now, maybe Reels. But no one is pulling off a rickroll with YouTube anymore. I saw a video of someone rickrolling their friend by sending a TikTok link, which me makes me wonder, did YouTube ads ruin the rickroll? Kind of spoils the surprise.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, YouTube ads ruin everything. For humor to work, timing is critical, right? And so those ads really disrupt like the genre of humor that’s happening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Would the original rickroll work with modern content consumption habits? When we consume content, it’s a lot of times happening passively to us, algorithmically served, instead of us like actively seeking it out or actually clicking links.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t think so. We need that interaction, I think, for the rickroll to be successful. And it feels like at least it was another person presenting this to us. And now it’s sort of the algorithm is serving it up to a plate on us and we’re not finding these things. And so I think what makes a lot of media content special, whether it’s memes, movies, songs, is it’s stuff that we find, not that someone else or something else finds for us. And so… innately, there’s going to be less meaning for a lot of that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The meme turnover rate is so high that no internet prank really sticks around long enough to rival or recreate the magic of the rickroll. The very format of the rickroll is limiting, especially in today’s digital landscape. Even rickrolling itself is difficult to pull off today because internet habits have changed. But what has endured as a prank is the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">script. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have this take and it’s that the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script is the ultimate bait-and-switch because it’s purely text. There’s no image macro, there’s no video lead-in with ads or that you have to wait to load to ruin the prank. The joke itself is so malleable. It can be dumped in comment sections, in government tip lines or turned into an image macro and then deep fried, or just read by that TikTok AI voice in 2X speed, which makes it funnier. Do you have any thoughts on this, the flexibility of this meme?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bret Strauch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, that’s why I think we see certain memes that at least are being iterated and changed upon more, and some that don’t seem to change as much. And so with it being all text, it’s really easy to adapt all text to different formats. I think my favorite of the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> script ones is where they do the crawl from Star Wars, and we get the intro to the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And so the easier that it is to manipulate that initial form of media, like, so text is super easy, makes it much easier to put it into different places, different platforms and distribute it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> came out nearly 20 years ago. Script dumping started in 2013. Last year, 12 years after that Facebook user posted the entire script on someone else’s wall, the DOGE-led government HR email was pelted with \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> scripts. At the request of Elon Musk, all federal employees were asked to email the Office of Personnel Management with five tasks they accomplished that week. On x, Musk posted, “Failure to respond will be taken as a resignation.” The email leaked online, and internet users responded on behalf of federal employees with pages and pages of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bee Movie\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> dialog. Spike was thrilled.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Spike Feresten: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s pretty exciting that anybody’s even talking about it. Really! I mean, you have to look at it, we look at that way. I think that people are still talking about this movie from what 2006 that we made, you know, in that way and that it, that it has these second and third lives. You know, we get excited that people still watching that movie and enjoying it. Like, it’s flattering. That’s the only way to really put it that this movie hasn’t been forgotten. It hasn’t disappeared into a canyon of content and gone forever, that it comes up over and over again in generally a good way. And, you know, if people are making fun of it, that’s fine, too. That’s what we do. We make fun of things you can make fun of us. Go ahead.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You heard Spike, go forth and prank. Let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode was produced by our senior editor, Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. Our team includes producer Maya Cueva, additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer, audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Email us at closealltabs@kqed.org. Follow us on Instagram @CloseAllTabsPod or TikTok @CloseallTabs. And join our Discord. We’re in the Close All tabs channel at discord.gg/kqed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
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"mindshift": {
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"order": 12
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"on-the-media": {
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"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
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},
"pbs-newshour": {
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},
"perspectives": {
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"order": 14
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"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
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"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/planetmoney.jpg",
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"politicalbreakdown": {
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"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Political-Breakdown-2024-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 5
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"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Possible-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.possible.fm/",
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"source": "Possible"
},
"link": "/radio/program/possible",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/730YpdUSNlMyPQwNnyjp4k"
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},
"pri-the-world": {
"id": "pri-the-world",
"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 2pm-3pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
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},
"radiolab": {
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