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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-california-report-magazine/id1314750545?mt=2\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Listen to this and more in-depth storytelling by subscribing to The California Report Magazine podcast.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"routes-Site-routes-Post-SinglePost-__SinglePost__mpost_Title\">\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For the last few weeks, in our series \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12061805/introducing-love-you-for-you-conversations-between-trans-kids-and-their-loved-ones\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Love You for You\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, we’ve been bringing you conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them so they can thrive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, we hear excerpts from two longer conversations we’re dropping on \u003ca href=\"https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-california-report-magazine/id1314750545\">our podcast\u003c/a> between young people in their 20s and transgender elders, whose \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">lives reflect the long arc of transgender activism here in California. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Quetzali,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">a 23-year-old Latinx nonbinary organizer from Sacramento, talks to 79\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">-year-old transgender \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063889/californias-trans-elders-share-decades-of-wisdom-and-advice-with-younger-generations\">Chicana activist Donna Personna\u003c/a>. And \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zen Blossom, who works at a Black trans cultural center, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12064690/celebrating-a-long-lost-history-of-californias-black-trans-trailblazers\">speaks with Andrea Horne\u003c/a>, an actress, jazz singer, historian and social worker.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-size: 16px;font-weight: 400\">\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Celebrating a ‘Long Lost History’ of California’s Black Trans Trailblazers",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the last few weeks, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">\u003cem>The California Report Magazine\u003c/em>\u003c/a> has been sharing conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them — a series called \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12061805/introducing-love-you-for-you-conversations-between-trans-kids-and-their-loved-ones\">\u003cem>Love You for You.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, we’re shifting the lens toward intergenerational stories — young people in their twenties\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063889/californias-trans-elders-share-decades-of-wisdom-and-advice-with-younger-generations\"> in conversation with transgender elders\u003c/a> whose lives trace the long arc of LGBTQ+ activism in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These bonus episodes carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the family conversations featured earlier in the series. They offer deeper context to the ongoing fight for safety, dignity and self-expression.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1577896821\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week’s story brings together Zen Blossom, a 26-year-old Black transgender rights activist at TGIJP, or the Miss Major Alexander E. Lee \u003ca href=\"https://tgijp.org/\">Transgender Gender-Variant & Intersex Justice Project\u003c/a> in San Francisco, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sf.gov/profile--andrea-horne\">Andrea Horne\u003c/a>, a San Francisco-based actress, model and jazz singer who was a part of legendary disco artist Sylvester’s entourage in the 1970s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now a historian working on her forthcoming book, \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World,\u003c/em> Andrea reflects with Zen on those who came before them and those who will come after.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063827\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063827\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne shows Zen Blossom a photo of Crystal LaBeija in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. LaBeija was a drag queen and trans woman born in the 1930s who helped influence ball culture and became a mother figure for homeless LGBTQ+ youth. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Hey, you’re listening to the California Report Magazine. I’m Sasha Khokha. And as you may know, it’s Transgender Awareness Month. For the last few weeks, we’ve been bringing you conversations between gender-expansive kids and the people in their lives who love and support them so they can thrive. We called the series called, “Love You for You.”[aside postID=news_12063889 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-30-KQED.jpg']And now we’re bringing you two bonus episodes of young people in their 20s interviewing transgender elders who are trailblazers when it comes to LGBTQ+ activism here in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just a heads up, these intergenerational conversations carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the ones we’ve been diving into with the family conversations in \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>. So parents, you might want to listen before deciding whether to share with your kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode, we’re gonna meet Andrea Horne, an actress, model and singer who also spent decades as a social worker. And Zen Blossom, who works at TGIJP, a Black trans cultural center and services organization in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Peace, everyone. My name is Zen. I use she-her pronouns. I am currently 26 and I reside in Oakland. I am born and raised in Los Angeles, six generations my family’s been in California.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nAndrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, my name is Andrea, and my pronouns are Her/she, like the chocolate candy bar.\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Love that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I’m a woman of a certain age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Period.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Period. And I’m originally from L.A. myself, but I lived in San Francisco longer than I lived in L.A. But I still feel like I’m from L.A., even though I’ve lived here over 40 years in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063828\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063828\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1412\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED-160x113.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED-1536x1084.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne points to a photo of Sweet Evening Breeze, center, a Black trans woman born in 1982, on her laptop at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. Andrea is working on a book called “How Black Trans Women Changed the World.” \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Andrea moved to San Francisco in part because she was friends with Sylvester, the disco artist and singer who’s become a queer icon. These days, Andrea’s a historian, working on a book called \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World\u003c/em> — focused on women who lived from 1836–1936. Andrea shares some of that history and her own history in this conversation with Zen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They start by talking about how they both left Los Angeles because they had unsupportive families. Andrea was only 15 when she ran away from home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I felt like there has been a long-lost history in a sense of the connections between Los Angeles, San Francisco and trans people migrating up and down. I just love hearing about your story, you being from L.A. and self-determining for yourself that you need to get out and figure out some other things for yourself at such a young age, 15.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I was just following behind the girls that came before me, and I feel, since I’ve been working in the social work field with trans people for the last 25 years, I realized that I was lucky to have what we call a drag mother, someone to help me see my way through. I love your lips, by the way. (Laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063825\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063825\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne shows a photo of a Black trans woman named Kate, parading in front of a group of San Quentin prisoners in 1925, on her phone in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I could tell you a little bit about my background, I guess. My mother’s people are from Louisiana and my father’s people are from Texas. And they moved to California during World War II. And my mother’s father was a Pullman porter. I don’t know if you know about the histories of the Pullman porters in America, but the Pullman porters created the black middle class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>What was their role for people who don’t know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Pullman porters were like flight attendants on trains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And it was all handsome black men. I know that was some probably gay guy during the hiring or something, because they were all handsome, educated black men.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063824\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063824\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne, a performer, historian and activist poses for a photo with her 4-year-old Pomeranian Mei-Mei, outside of her home in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>My family is from Texas, too. My grandma got here in the ‘20s with her mom and her grandma. They took the 66 all the way up to like the northern middle part of California and then came down to Los Angeles. But they stopped in Delano for a second. But a lot of the folks that she worked with were like in the factories and things and doing the canning and the industries, especially during the world wars and stuff, she was doing the canning and stuff. So it’s just interesting to see, like, how, regardless of different class backgrounds, too, that the migration affected like black people as a whole still. There’s a type of racism that happens that doesn’t allow people to escape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Interestingly, the Black people that stayed in the South are like runnin’ it. You know, they’re in every office, everything, which I find amusing. They stayed there. My mother’s from New Orleans, and she went to Xavier College, which is a black Catholic, HBCU Catholic. My whole family went to those. My father, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>OK. I was gonna ask my next question was like, what was that process trying to invite them into your life, as you, or maybe not invite them into your life?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>They’ve never been in my life since I transitioned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I think that’s why it’s really important to speak to like, chosen family too. And like why it important that you had your drag mom there around you to support you in these really difficult times. What was the name of your chosen mom?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Her name is Duchess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Duchess? OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And then there was Eva, her best friend, my kind of drag auntie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>And how old were you when you met them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I was 15. And Duchess was in her 20s. And Eva was in her twenties as well. And they kind of took me in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How did y’all meet?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s an interesting story. It was summer vacation. I was 15. And my mother had become kind of a psycho about my transgenderism. It drove her mad. I was with my friends from high school, and my friends are like saying you don’t have to take that from her. You know, you’re be your own person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So we were at Venice Beach and when it got dark, they all went home for dinner and left me sitting at Venice Beach. And so that empty feeling of having nowhere to go had stayed with me. So anyway, I sat there an hour not knowing what to do. I just had on. I didn’t even have a jacket. It was summer in L.A. One of my friends came back. Thank God. And. Said, let me take you to my cousin. And so my trans girlfriend from high school brought me to her cousin, named Duchess, who ended up being my drag mother. And we looked similar, so we could say we were sisters. And the moment I met her and she looked me up and down and she said, “Do you want titties?” I said, “Yes, ma’am.” And she reached in her pocket and she pulled out this hormone pill, a premarin pill, purple. It was like bitten in two, and it had lint and dust and grease and tobacco all clinging to it, and I didn’t care. I just inhaled it. And in the morning, I thought I was gonna be Dolly Parton. But I wasn’t. (Laughs) Dolly Parton takes years, but I didn’t know that at the time. However, my drag mother, we’ll just call her Duchess. She did sex work, survival sex work. That’s all she knew. She got kicked out of her house when she was my age. And after I met her, I think probably within an hour, I was doing sex work. But not real sex work because Duchess’ thing was to not turn the trick, to get the money and run or something like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And so we did a lot of times that I learned how to run in five-inch heels from the tricks, from the police, jumping over back fences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Changing outfits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Changing outfits. It wasn’t it was it was quite wild. It’s a miracle I survived it. However, duchess like me, during the quiet moments, we just sat around and read. And she liked to read, I liked to read. From 1987 to 2007, I read a book a week. That’s 30 years. I read a book a week. You know, I mostly read biographies and autobiographies from people that I admired to see how they did it. Not how they did stardom, but how they got from where they started to becoming a star. That fascinates me. But as soon as I got my first laptop in 2007, I stopped reading a book a week, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Thank you to the internet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yes, thanks to the internet. So you asked me about my family, what about yours? How did they support your transition?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Oh my goodness. Absolutely not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Are they church people?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yes, very much so. Grew up in the church. Grew with a lot of that, a lot of reading the Bible. I read the Bible multiple times. I still hold it dear to me in certain ways, aspects. And in other ways, I push it very, very far away. I definitely identify with growing up with my grandmas a lot more than my immediate parents. I felt like my grandmas kept me safe a lot better and they knew what was happening. And so I was with them until they both passed away, unfortunately, when I was 10. And then it was pretty rough, and then I ended up leaving and going to college away from family at 18, and that’s when I was able to like really be myself, explore myself. Do those things, and that was my way out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Where’d you go to school?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I went to school on the East Coast. I wanted to get as far as possible. I was very fortunate that I got a full ride because I also got a full ride for high school to also get away from my family and went to a private school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So, do you talk to your family?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I’m not in connection with them, besides my great-grandma. And that was a really cool thing for me because during the pandemic, when I stayed with her for a little bit, we were discussing and talking about, like just all the things. And she was teaching me how to sew. And when we were sewing, she was like, “Oh, do you want,” um, it was a dress that you would match. It was a robe, essentially, so you would either put the buttons on the left side or the right side. And she was like, ‘Which side are you gonna put it on?’ And for her, you know, depending on which side you have it on, that’s cross-dressing, you know, against the law. So she was trying to ask me what my tea was, essentially.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Because she did my measurements and it said, like, you know, 40-36-42, you know, so I had the, I had a figure. And so she was already like, no, clocking certain things here and there with me. She was like, “OK, so you have breasts. OK. So which side is this supposed to go on?” And then when we were sewing it together, she was just like, “You know what, this reminds me. Of when I was growing up, off of Central, and there’s someone that you remind me of,” and it was Lady Java.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so that was a really powerful moment for me to know that we’ve always been here, and that there’s also points for people, especially the older generations, to still connect with us, because people think … That, oh, just because you’re older, that means you don’t have exposure to it. And it’s just very interesting for me that the older people in my life actually had more experience with transness than the people who were closer to me in age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I thought it was really cool that my great grandma had an understanding of what could be read as transness with Lady Java without having the exact words for it. And so I would love for you to share more about the prolific work of Lady Java.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, her stage name was Sir Lady Java, and she was incredibly important to me, and incredibly important to all the other sort of black trans women in Los Angeles, because she was the queen. And why was she the queen? Well, she was a glamour girl associated with celebrities. And I know in L.A., that’s important. But she’s really famous for her activist work that kind of goes unrecognized.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But she was performer, a showgirl. And she kept getting arrested as a female impersonator because that was illegal. And it gave the police the right to arrest you if they perceived that you may be trans in quotation marks. And so you had to, one had to wear three clothes, if you were a trans woman, you had wear three pieces of men’s clothing. And I remember Java told me that she wore a man’s wristwatch and a T-shirt under her mini dress and men’s socks, but she had them rolled down like Mary Jane’s. And so that’s how she could not get arrested. But she did get arrested whenever she appeared at Black clubs. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Off of Central.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, off Central. And so, but she fought in the courts with the ACLU, so that cross-dressing quote was not illegal any longer. And she fought, and it took years, and I think she lost the first couple of times, but they kept at it. And the law was changed, and it made an incredible difference for trans people everywhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It set a precedent, a nationwide precedent, that cross-dressing or drag was OK. The police, when it became legal, they had to kind of back up off black trans women who they normally harassed on a regular basis. And so her activist work changed the lives of all queer people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, a white gay man might not know that it was Sir Lady Java that did that, but it’s always been black trans woman leading the call. I guess that’s just our karma. and now we can be who we want to be. But as a little trans child growing up in L.A., I would see her name, Sir Lady Java, up in marquees, theater marquees. And so I knew what she was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yeah, so Java passed away this year, actually \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/18/arts/sir-lady-java-dead.html\">late last year\u003c/a>. And I went to her memorial service in Los Angeles, but she was important. I realized that’s another privilege I had. I didn’t realize I didn’t grow up in isolation in a small country town where I had no point of reference. I grew up in the city and I saw her name in marquees, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even like growing up in a rural town or something. ‘Cause for me, I like, I grew up in Los Angeles and I still didn’t have access to Lady Java until after the fact, you know, after. And so it was just like, that’s also a really big thing that is like, that I feel like people need to understand about California that it’s like a golden state. Like it’s this progressive place, but also it can be very unsafe. For trans kids at homes that are unsupportive. I wish I knew about Lady Java and everything growing up because if I did, I probably would have invited more people into my life a lot earlier on. But you know. (Dog barks) But that’s not how life goes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And Mei Mei, sitting here, my little five-pound mocha chocolate little Pomeranian, she’s sitting in my lap, she just barked a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> She’s really cute, y’all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, she is really cute. It’s been five minutes since someone told her she was cute, so just like her mother. Right, right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I find that since I’ve been doing the research for a book I’m working on about black trans women called, the working title is \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World\u003c/em>, I’ve found that people were so much more tolerant about queer issues before World War II. Right, and it changed after World War II with the sort of the conservatism of the 50s and the civil rights movement. I think really kind of turned the tide for trans people, we’ll just use that word.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> In quotations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>In quotations because there was no such thing as trans people a few years ago. My drag mother and auntie still don’t let me refer to them as that. They just live their lives as women. But yeah, it flipped, the script flipped from tolerance to being really intolerant and even violent towards us. But before World War II, we were considered just part of the community. As long as you stay in your lane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>And what were those lanes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>The lanes were a hairdresser.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Work in a bar of some sort, a show girl and housewife. You know, that’s kind of, that’s it. That was all available to us. I remember a girl from my crowd. She got a job at the phone company. I was astounded. I didn’t know that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>The girls could do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>The girls could get jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So you were asking me about my book and I’m kind of focusing on three black trans women that were born before 1900.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>But I’ll talk about Lucy Hicks Anderson the most, because she’s my favorite. And she was accomplished. And her story is super unique, I think. She was born in 18, circa 1890. She told her family that her name was no longer Tobias, that her name was Lucy and to call her Lucy. And remarkably, her parents brought her to the doctor, two doctors, and both doctors said, “Just call her Lucy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right. And this speaks back to what you were saying earlier, how there was a lot more tolerance for us back in the day and awareness around us possibly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, people seem to understand that trans is part of the human condition. But now they’re trying to sell it as something weird that just kind of happened in the 21st century.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, the trans turning point with Laverne (Cox).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, now they’re trying to sell the public that transgenderism is something new. It wasn’t called that before. So when I was growing up, the girls called themselves drag queens. But now drag queens is the domain of gay men.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And so Lucy, getting back to Lucy, love her. She was a gourmet chef and a madam, and then she met her husband, her second husband, and they moved to Oxnard because she always wanted to move to California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Makes sense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So she decided on Oxnard, which is about midways between Santa Monica and Santa Barbara, coastal. And she stayed there for 35 years and she ran a catering business and a brothel. And she was a bootlegger during the ‘20s. And she was a fashion plate and so she became the darling of the wives of the heads of studios.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Someone knew her from her past and told that she wasn’t assigned female at birth. They ran her out of Oxnard. But she was smart with her money and she’d bought a couple of houses over by Central Avenue in Los Angeles. And that’s where she moved to and she spent her last days there quietly. But she did so much that she changed people’s minds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that is why I admire her so much, that she had the wherewithal to sort of just live her authentic life. In retrospect, it takes courage to live your authentic life, which is why I think a lot of non-trans people hate trans people, because we have the courage to live our authentic lives. And a lot of people are envious of that ability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> She was a philanthropist too, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>During World War II, she gave $50,000 in war bonds, which is a couple million dollars today. So she loved America and she loved her life, but they wouldn’t let her just live her life out. So I wanna tell her story because it needs to be told.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> It does. She was stealth. What does that mean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Stealth is a relatively new term. And I think it’s a white term, but it means being a trans person living in your true gender without people knowing about it. Passing, as they call it. That’s what stealth is. And I myself lived stealth from age 15, from that first hormone pill I told you about, until I was 50. I never denied my transness, but it just wasn’t on display. It wasn’t open for discussion. Yeah, it just wasn’t opened for discussion and I just had a regular little job and a husband and so I was just living my life like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Something happened like that to me in San Francisco in the ‘90s. I was working in an office downtown. And someone I know, I saw in the building. I don’t know who he told, but he told my tea. And when I came back from lunch, the police and the building security guards were standing at my desk. And they handed me my paycheck and escorted me out. No words were spoken, and they escorted me out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the girl I had just had lunch with, she was screaming at the top of her lungs, “I just had lunch with it. Arrrh!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Hmmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Now, that was over 30 years ago, and that wouldn’t happen today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So when I first met Sylvester.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Right. How old were you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I was 15. Sylvester was in his early 20s. And I went to my first kind of queer party and there were lots of trans women and men there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>OK, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And I thought that Sylvester, or Dooney, was a real woman, which is so fascinating, because years later, you would think it’s impossible. But I’ll show you a picture on my phone, he was flawless. But I moved here partly because of Sylvester, because I knew him in L.A. And I just kept coming up to visit and I got a modeling job through Sylvester. So I had to get an apartment, and that was in 1979. I got my first apartment in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How much was rent?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>My rent was $200.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>A month?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Hmm-mm. But yeah, Sylvester kind of changed the world. Sylvester sort of invented this sort of non-binary genderqueer thing that’s very popular right now. But Sylvester was the first one sort of publicly doing that. You know, he was a boy one day and a girl the next and a mustache the next and smooth shaving the next. And, you know, eventually became a star, really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>No it’s so cool hearing about your story, especially with Sylvester at such a young age, holding you down, because really Sylvester is prolific here in San Francisco: huge musician, queer icon and a lot of folks don’t know this history about their gender queerness, possibly like non-binaryness and we can’t erase that and be simple in how we see gender or our community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>You know, I agree with you on that. It’s just that gay men have claimed Sylvester. But he also started as a trans woman, and I think that should be part of his story also, because that’s what really happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right. You talked a bit about the conversation around just having to be stealth and not wanting to disclose because it’s honestly not people’s business, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> True.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How do you think that’s similar to now? Versus then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I think that for all the trans people that are out professing their transness, there’s just as equally as many trans people who are still living stealth. And I don’t think they have any plans on coming out, especially now, with the political climate the way it is. I want to go back stealth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> You would, or would not?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I want to, but I’m on the internet now, so I can’t, but, you know, it’s scary times for us now, and things have gotten better for trans folks, but black trans women are still getting (beep) over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And are restricted and precluded from resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even here in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even here in San Francisco, yes. San Francisco is fabulous if you’re a white gay man. It is Disneyland with the A-ticket and the Matterhorn and all of that, but for the rest of us, it’s just America. M-E-R-K-K-K-A. Oh, I forgot an I in there somewhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so just know that as many trans people that you see on TV and Pose and everyone’s twerking and all that, there’s just as many people that are living stealth lives in the suburbs married. So when you hear people say, “I’ve never used the bathroom with somebody trans!” You probably have. They probably have, but.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Many a times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Many a times. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>What advice do you have for Black trans girls today, especially for like building sisterhood?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Stay in school, that’s that’s your way out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: Blossom:\u003c/strong> Mmm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s my message to young Black trans women, stay at school. And if you’re a teenager and they’re bullying you at school because you’re trans, you’re not gonna remember those (beep) in five years. You won’t even remember their names or their faces or anything. The people that bullied me when I was in high school, I wish somebody had told me, you’re not even going to remember them. But when you’re a teen, the present is everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: Blossom:\u003c/strong> Yes, yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> And you haven’t yet developed the ability to kind of foresee in the future. And so it’s all immediate. And the message is it will pass, you’ll survive it, and you won’t even remember them. Just stay in school, educate yourself. That’s undeniable. Stay in school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Go as far as you can in school and my dream, my lottery-winning dream is to have a scholarship fund for black trans women. I had a dear friend named Dana Turner, who was a Black trans woman who went to Georgetown Law School, which is pretty impressive. I want to have it in, in her name.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Dana Turner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Dana Turner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s been rewarding at the very least to get immersed in the history and the knowledge and the lineage of the work. And also that we have so many different folks to look to and different possibility models there’s ones as philanthropists, we have people who are cooks. We have people who are going to law school. We have who read books every week for 30 years. We have our different miniature worlds that we can create for ourselves and curate. It takes a lot of investment, but in the long term, it’s worth it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I think, Zen, it’s important that we have conversations like this, because America teaches us not to really care about our old folks. As trans folks, we want to start a new model, an intergenerational model, an interaction where we really support and help each other. I want to see us moving in that direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>For the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>For the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>For us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Yeah, for the girls. We’re saving lives here. Yeah. Yeah. We’ve got to save lives, and we got to let people know that transgender is nothing new. It’s always been part of the human condition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>All the way back to Africa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>All the way back to Africa, all the way to Africa. It’s interesting how contemporary Africans say that there’s no queers, there’s no African queers. But of course that’s not true. But Europeans brought, they didn’t bring queerness, they brought …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: and Andrea Horne together:\u003c/strong> homophobia and transphobia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>It was good continuing to build with you, Andrea, and you, Mei Mei. I will never forget. Don’t worry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I hope this is just the first conversation of many, because we really just scratched the surface.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> We really did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Continues\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Transgender elder Andrea Horne, in conversation with Zen Blossom, a 26-year-old transgender activist from Oakland who works with the TGIJP Black Trans Cultural Center. The center was founded by Miss Major, a trailblazing Black trans activist and who passed away this fall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that’s it for TCR Mag for this week. This interview was produced by me, Sasha Khokha with Srishti Prabha and Suzie Racho with help this week from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\">Gender Reveal\u003c/a> podcast for his help on this episode. And to KQED’s Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And by the way, if you didn’t catch our series on trans and nonbinary youth and people who love them, check out our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">Love You for You\u003c/a> series on our podcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">The California Report Magazine\u003c/a>. Your State, Your Stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades Out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the last few weeks, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">\u003cem>The California Report Magazine\u003c/em>\u003c/a> has been sharing conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them — a series called \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12061805/introducing-love-you-for-you-conversations-between-trans-kids-and-their-loved-ones\">\u003cem>Love You for You.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, we’re shifting the lens toward intergenerational stories — young people in their twenties\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063889/californias-trans-elders-share-decades-of-wisdom-and-advice-with-younger-generations\"> in conversation with transgender elders\u003c/a> whose lives trace the long arc of LGBTQ+ activism in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These bonus episodes carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the family conversations featured earlier in the series. They offer deeper context to the ongoing fight for safety, dignity and self-expression.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1577896821\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week’s story brings together Zen Blossom, a 26-year-old Black transgender rights activist at TGIJP, or the Miss Major Alexander E. Lee \u003ca href=\"https://tgijp.org/\">Transgender Gender-Variant & Intersex Justice Project\u003c/a> in San Francisco, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sf.gov/profile--andrea-horne\">Andrea Horne\u003c/a>, a San Francisco-based actress, model and jazz singer who was a part of legendary disco artist Sylvester’s entourage in the 1970s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now a historian working on her forthcoming book, \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World,\u003c/em> Andrea reflects with Zen on those who came before them and those who will come after.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063827\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063827\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne shows Zen Blossom a photo of Crystal LaBeija in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. LaBeija was a drag queen and trans woman born in the 1930s who helped influence ball culture and became a mother figure for homeless LGBTQ+ youth. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Hey, you’re listening to the California Report Magazine. I’m Sasha Khokha. And as you may know, it’s Transgender Awareness Month. For the last few weeks, we’ve been bringing you conversations between gender-expansive kids and the people in their lives who love and support them so they can thrive. We called the series called, “Love You for You.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>And now we’re bringing you two bonus episodes of young people in their 20s interviewing transgender elders who are trailblazers when it comes to LGBTQ+ activism here in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just a heads up, these intergenerational conversations carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the ones we’ve been diving into with the family conversations in \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>. So parents, you might want to listen before deciding whether to share with your kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode, we’re gonna meet Andrea Horne, an actress, model and singer who also spent decades as a social worker. And Zen Blossom, who works at TGIJP, a Black trans cultural center and services organization in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Peace, everyone. My name is Zen. I use she-her pronouns. I am currently 26 and I reside in Oakland. I am born and raised in Los Angeles, six generations my family’s been in California.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nAndrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, my name is Andrea, and my pronouns are Her/she, like the chocolate candy bar.\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Love that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I’m a woman of a certain age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Period.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Period. And I’m originally from L.A. myself, but I lived in San Francisco longer than I lived in L.A. But I still feel like I’m from L.A., even though I’ve lived here over 40 years in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063828\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063828\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1412\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED-160x113.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED-1536x1084.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne points to a photo of Sweet Evening Breeze, center, a Black trans woman born in 1982, on her laptop at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. Andrea is working on a book called “How Black Trans Women Changed the World.” \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Andrea moved to San Francisco in part because she was friends with Sylvester, the disco artist and singer who’s become a queer icon. These days, Andrea’s a historian, working on a book called \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World\u003c/em> — focused on women who lived from 1836–1936. Andrea shares some of that history and her own history in this conversation with Zen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They start by talking about how they both left Los Angeles because they had unsupportive families. Andrea was only 15 when she ran away from home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I felt like there has been a long-lost history in a sense of the connections between Los Angeles, San Francisco and trans people migrating up and down. I just love hearing about your story, you being from L.A. and self-determining for yourself that you need to get out and figure out some other things for yourself at such a young age, 15.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I was just following behind the girls that came before me, and I feel, since I’ve been working in the social work field with trans people for the last 25 years, I realized that I was lucky to have what we call a drag mother, someone to help me see my way through. I love your lips, by the way. (Laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063825\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063825\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne shows a photo of a Black trans woman named Kate, parading in front of a group of San Quentin prisoners in 1925, on her phone in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I could tell you a little bit about my background, I guess. My mother’s people are from Louisiana and my father’s people are from Texas. And they moved to California during World War II. And my mother’s father was a Pullman porter. I don’t know if you know about the histories of the Pullman porters in America, but the Pullman porters created the black middle class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>What was their role for people who don’t know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Pullman porters were like flight attendants on trains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And it was all handsome black men. I know that was some probably gay guy during the hiring or something, because they were all handsome, educated black men.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063824\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063824\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne, a performer, historian and activist poses for a photo with her 4-year-old Pomeranian Mei-Mei, outside of her home in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>My family is from Texas, too. My grandma got here in the ‘20s with her mom and her grandma. They took the 66 all the way up to like the northern middle part of California and then came down to Los Angeles. But they stopped in Delano for a second. But a lot of the folks that she worked with were like in the factories and things and doing the canning and the industries, especially during the world wars and stuff, she was doing the canning and stuff. So it’s just interesting to see, like, how, regardless of different class backgrounds, too, that the migration affected like black people as a whole still. There’s a type of racism that happens that doesn’t allow people to escape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Interestingly, the Black people that stayed in the South are like runnin’ it. You know, they’re in every office, everything, which I find amusing. They stayed there. My mother’s from New Orleans, and she went to Xavier College, which is a black Catholic, HBCU Catholic. My whole family went to those. My father, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>OK. I was gonna ask my next question was like, what was that process trying to invite them into your life, as you, or maybe not invite them into your life?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>They’ve never been in my life since I transitioned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I think that’s why it’s really important to speak to like, chosen family too. And like why it important that you had your drag mom there around you to support you in these really difficult times. What was the name of your chosen mom?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Her name is Duchess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Duchess? OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And then there was Eva, her best friend, my kind of drag auntie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>And how old were you when you met them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I was 15. And Duchess was in her 20s. And Eva was in her twenties as well. And they kind of took me in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How did y’all meet?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s an interesting story. It was summer vacation. I was 15. And my mother had become kind of a psycho about my transgenderism. It drove her mad. I was with my friends from high school, and my friends are like saying you don’t have to take that from her. You know, you’re be your own person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So we were at Venice Beach and when it got dark, they all went home for dinner and left me sitting at Venice Beach. And so that empty feeling of having nowhere to go had stayed with me. So anyway, I sat there an hour not knowing what to do. I just had on. I didn’t even have a jacket. It was summer in L.A. One of my friends came back. Thank God. And. Said, let me take you to my cousin. And so my trans girlfriend from high school brought me to her cousin, named Duchess, who ended up being my drag mother. And we looked similar, so we could say we were sisters. And the moment I met her and she looked me up and down and she said, “Do you want titties?” I said, “Yes, ma’am.” And she reached in her pocket and she pulled out this hormone pill, a premarin pill, purple. It was like bitten in two, and it had lint and dust and grease and tobacco all clinging to it, and I didn’t care. I just inhaled it. And in the morning, I thought I was gonna be Dolly Parton. But I wasn’t. (Laughs) Dolly Parton takes years, but I didn’t know that at the time. However, my drag mother, we’ll just call her Duchess. She did sex work, survival sex work. That’s all she knew. She got kicked out of her house when she was my age. And after I met her, I think probably within an hour, I was doing sex work. But not real sex work because Duchess’ thing was to not turn the trick, to get the money and run or something like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And so we did a lot of times that I learned how to run in five-inch heels from the tricks, from the police, jumping over back fences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Changing outfits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Changing outfits. It wasn’t it was it was quite wild. It’s a miracle I survived it. However, duchess like me, during the quiet moments, we just sat around and read. And she liked to read, I liked to read. From 1987 to 2007, I read a book a week. That’s 30 years. I read a book a week. You know, I mostly read biographies and autobiographies from people that I admired to see how they did it. Not how they did stardom, but how they got from where they started to becoming a star. That fascinates me. But as soon as I got my first laptop in 2007, I stopped reading a book a week, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Thank you to the internet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yes, thanks to the internet. So you asked me about my family, what about yours? How did they support your transition?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Oh my goodness. Absolutely not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Are they church people?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yes, very much so. Grew up in the church. Grew with a lot of that, a lot of reading the Bible. I read the Bible multiple times. I still hold it dear to me in certain ways, aspects. And in other ways, I push it very, very far away. I definitely identify with growing up with my grandmas a lot more than my immediate parents. I felt like my grandmas kept me safe a lot better and they knew what was happening. And so I was with them until they both passed away, unfortunately, when I was 10. And then it was pretty rough, and then I ended up leaving and going to college away from family at 18, and that’s when I was able to like really be myself, explore myself. Do those things, and that was my way out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Where’d you go to school?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I went to school on the East Coast. I wanted to get as far as possible. I was very fortunate that I got a full ride because I also got a full ride for high school to also get away from my family and went to a private school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So, do you talk to your family?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I’m not in connection with them, besides my great-grandma. And that was a really cool thing for me because during the pandemic, when I stayed with her for a little bit, we were discussing and talking about, like just all the things. And she was teaching me how to sew. And when we were sewing, she was like, “Oh, do you want,” um, it was a dress that you would match. It was a robe, essentially, so you would either put the buttons on the left side or the right side. And she was like, ‘Which side are you gonna put it on?’ And for her, you know, depending on which side you have it on, that’s cross-dressing, you know, against the law. So she was trying to ask me what my tea was, essentially.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Because she did my measurements and it said, like, you know, 40-36-42, you know, so I had the, I had a figure. And so she was already like, no, clocking certain things here and there with me. She was like, “OK, so you have breasts. OK. So which side is this supposed to go on?” And then when we were sewing it together, she was just like, “You know what, this reminds me. Of when I was growing up, off of Central, and there’s someone that you remind me of,” and it was Lady Java.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so that was a really powerful moment for me to know that we’ve always been here, and that there’s also points for people, especially the older generations, to still connect with us, because people think … That, oh, just because you’re older, that means you don’t have exposure to it. And it’s just very interesting for me that the older people in my life actually had more experience with transness than the people who were closer to me in age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I thought it was really cool that my great grandma had an understanding of what could be read as transness with Lady Java without having the exact words for it. And so I would love for you to share more about the prolific work of Lady Java.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, her stage name was Sir Lady Java, and she was incredibly important to me, and incredibly important to all the other sort of black trans women in Los Angeles, because she was the queen. And why was she the queen? Well, she was a glamour girl associated with celebrities. And I know in L.A., that’s important. But she’s really famous for her activist work that kind of goes unrecognized.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But she was performer, a showgirl. And she kept getting arrested as a female impersonator because that was illegal. And it gave the police the right to arrest you if they perceived that you may be trans in quotation marks. And so you had to, one had to wear three clothes, if you were a trans woman, you had wear three pieces of men’s clothing. And I remember Java told me that she wore a man’s wristwatch and a T-shirt under her mini dress and men’s socks, but she had them rolled down like Mary Jane’s. And so that’s how she could not get arrested. But she did get arrested whenever she appeared at Black clubs. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Off of Central.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, off Central. And so, but she fought in the courts with the ACLU, so that cross-dressing quote was not illegal any longer. And she fought, and it took years, and I think she lost the first couple of times, but they kept at it. And the law was changed, and it made an incredible difference for trans people everywhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It set a precedent, a nationwide precedent, that cross-dressing or drag was OK. The police, when it became legal, they had to kind of back up off black trans women who they normally harassed on a regular basis. And so her activist work changed the lives of all queer people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, a white gay man might not know that it was Sir Lady Java that did that, but it’s always been black trans woman leading the call. I guess that’s just our karma. and now we can be who we want to be. But as a little trans child growing up in L.A., I would see her name, Sir Lady Java, up in marquees, theater marquees. And so I knew what she was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yeah, so Java passed away this year, actually \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/18/arts/sir-lady-java-dead.html\">late last year\u003c/a>. And I went to her memorial service in Los Angeles, but she was important. I realized that’s another privilege I had. I didn’t realize I didn’t grow up in isolation in a small country town where I had no point of reference. I grew up in the city and I saw her name in marquees, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even like growing up in a rural town or something. ‘Cause for me, I like, I grew up in Los Angeles and I still didn’t have access to Lady Java until after the fact, you know, after. And so it was just like, that’s also a really big thing that is like, that I feel like people need to understand about California that it’s like a golden state. Like it’s this progressive place, but also it can be very unsafe. For trans kids at homes that are unsupportive. I wish I knew about Lady Java and everything growing up because if I did, I probably would have invited more people into my life a lot earlier on. But you know. (Dog barks) But that’s not how life goes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And Mei Mei, sitting here, my little five-pound mocha chocolate little Pomeranian, she’s sitting in my lap, she just barked a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> She’s really cute, y’all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, she is really cute. It’s been five minutes since someone told her she was cute, so just like her mother. Right, right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I find that since I’ve been doing the research for a book I’m working on about black trans women called, the working title is \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World\u003c/em>, I’ve found that people were so much more tolerant about queer issues before World War II. Right, and it changed after World War II with the sort of the conservatism of the 50s and the civil rights movement. I think really kind of turned the tide for trans people, we’ll just use that word.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> In quotations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>In quotations because there was no such thing as trans people a few years ago. My drag mother and auntie still don’t let me refer to them as that. They just live their lives as women. But yeah, it flipped, the script flipped from tolerance to being really intolerant and even violent towards us. But before World War II, we were considered just part of the community. As long as you stay in your lane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>And what were those lanes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>The lanes were a hairdresser.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Work in a bar of some sort, a show girl and housewife. You know, that’s kind of, that’s it. That was all available to us. I remember a girl from my crowd. She got a job at the phone company. I was astounded. I didn’t know that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>The girls could do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>The girls could get jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So you were asking me about my book and I’m kind of focusing on three black trans women that were born before 1900.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>But I’ll talk about Lucy Hicks Anderson the most, because she’s my favorite. And she was accomplished. And her story is super unique, I think. She was born in 18, circa 1890. She told her family that her name was no longer Tobias, that her name was Lucy and to call her Lucy. And remarkably, her parents brought her to the doctor, two doctors, and both doctors said, “Just call her Lucy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right. And this speaks back to what you were saying earlier, how there was a lot more tolerance for us back in the day and awareness around us possibly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, people seem to understand that trans is part of the human condition. But now they’re trying to sell it as something weird that just kind of happened in the 21st century.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, the trans turning point with Laverne (Cox).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, now they’re trying to sell the public that transgenderism is something new. It wasn’t called that before. So when I was growing up, the girls called themselves drag queens. But now drag queens is the domain of gay men.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And so Lucy, getting back to Lucy, love her. She was a gourmet chef and a madam, and then she met her husband, her second husband, and they moved to Oxnard because she always wanted to move to California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Makes sense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So she decided on Oxnard, which is about midways between Santa Monica and Santa Barbara, coastal. And she stayed there for 35 years and she ran a catering business and a brothel. And she was a bootlegger during the ‘20s. And she was a fashion plate and so she became the darling of the wives of the heads of studios.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Someone knew her from her past and told that she wasn’t assigned female at birth. They ran her out of Oxnard. But she was smart with her money and she’d bought a couple of houses over by Central Avenue in Los Angeles. And that’s where she moved to and she spent her last days there quietly. But she did so much that she changed people’s minds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that is why I admire her so much, that she had the wherewithal to sort of just live her authentic life. In retrospect, it takes courage to live your authentic life, which is why I think a lot of non-trans people hate trans people, because we have the courage to live our authentic lives. And a lot of people are envious of that ability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> She was a philanthropist too, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>During World War II, she gave $50,000 in war bonds, which is a couple million dollars today. So she loved America and she loved her life, but they wouldn’t let her just live her life out. So I wanna tell her story because it needs to be told.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> It does. She was stealth. What does that mean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Stealth is a relatively new term. And I think it’s a white term, but it means being a trans person living in your true gender without people knowing about it. Passing, as they call it. That’s what stealth is. And I myself lived stealth from age 15, from that first hormone pill I told you about, until I was 50. I never denied my transness, but it just wasn’t on display. It wasn’t open for discussion. Yeah, it just wasn’t opened for discussion and I just had a regular little job and a husband and so I was just living my life like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Something happened like that to me in San Francisco in the ‘90s. I was working in an office downtown. And someone I know, I saw in the building. I don’t know who he told, but he told my tea. And when I came back from lunch, the police and the building security guards were standing at my desk. And they handed me my paycheck and escorted me out. No words were spoken, and they escorted me out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the girl I had just had lunch with, she was screaming at the top of her lungs, “I just had lunch with it. Arrrh!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Hmmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Now, that was over 30 years ago, and that wouldn’t happen today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So when I first met Sylvester.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Right. How old were you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I was 15. Sylvester was in his early 20s. And I went to my first kind of queer party and there were lots of trans women and men there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>OK, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And I thought that Sylvester, or Dooney, was a real woman, which is so fascinating, because years later, you would think it’s impossible. But I’ll show you a picture on my phone, he was flawless. But I moved here partly because of Sylvester, because I knew him in L.A. And I just kept coming up to visit and I got a modeling job through Sylvester. So I had to get an apartment, and that was in 1979. I got my first apartment in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How much was rent?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>My rent was $200.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>A month?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Hmm-mm. But yeah, Sylvester kind of changed the world. Sylvester sort of invented this sort of non-binary genderqueer thing that’s very popular right now. But Sylvester was the first one sort of publicly doing that. You know, he was a boy one day and a girl the next and a mustache the next and smooth shaving the next. And, you know, eventually became a star, really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>No it’s so cool hearing about your story, especially with Sylvester at such a young age, holding you down, because really Sylvester is prolific here in San Francisco: huge musician, queer icon and a lot of folks don’t know this history about their gender queerness, possibly like non-binaryness and we can’t erase that and be simple in how we see gender or our community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>You know, I agree with you on that. It’s just that gay men have claimed Sylvester. But he also started as a trans woman, and I think that should be part of his story also, because that’s what really happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right. You talked a bit about the conversation around just having to be stealth and not wanting to disclose because it’s honestly not people’s business, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> True.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How do you think that’s similar to now? Versus then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I think that for all the trans people that are out professing their transness, there’s just as equally as many trans people who are still living stealth. And I don’t think they have any plans on coming out, especially now, with the political climate the way it is. I want to go back stealth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> You would, or would not?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I want to, but I’m on the internet now, so I can’t, but, you know, it’s scary times for us now, and things have gotten better for trans folks, but black trans women are still getting (beep) over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And are restricted and precluded from resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even here in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even here in San Francisco, yes. San Francisco is fabulous if you’re a white gay man. It is Disneyland with the A-ticket and the Matterhorn and all of that, but for the rest of us, it’s just America. M-E-R-K-K-K-A. Oh, I forgot an I in there somewhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so just know that as many trans people that you see on TV and Pose and everyone’s twerking and all that, there’s just as many people that are living stealth lives in the suburbs married. So when you hear people say, “I’ve never used the bathroom with somebody trans!” You probably have. They probably have, but.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Many a times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Many a times. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>What advice do you have for Black trans girls today, especially for like building sisterhood?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Stay in school, that’s that’s your way out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: Blossom:\u003c/strong> Mmm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s my message to young Black trans women, stay at school. And if you’re a teenager and they’re bullying you at school because you’re trans, you’re not gonna remember those (beep) in five years. You won’t even remember their names or their faces or anything. The people that bullied me when I was in high school, I wish somebody had told me, you’re not even going to remember them. But when you’re a teen, the present is everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: Blossom:\u003c/strong> Yes, yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> And you haven’t yet developed the ability to kind of foresee in the future. And so it’s all immediate. And the message is it will pass, you’ll survive it, and you won’t even remember them. Just stay in school, educate yourself. That’s undeniable. Stay in school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Go as far as you can in school and my dream, my lottery-winning dream is to have a scholarship fund for black trans women. I had a dear friend named Dana Turner, who was a Black trans woman who went to Georgetown Law School, which is pretty impressive. I want to have it in, in her name.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Dana Turner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Dana Turner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s been rewarding at the very least to get immersed in the history and the knowledge and the lineage of the work. And also that we have so many different folks to look to and different possibility models there’s ones as philanthropists, we have people who are cooks. We have people who are going to law school. We have who read books every week for 30 years. We have our different miniature worlds that we can create for ourselves and curate. It takes a lot of investment, but in the long term, it’s worth it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I think, Zen, it’s important that we have conversations like this, because America teaches us not to really care about our old folks. As trans folks, we want to start a new model, an intergenerational model, an interaction where we really support and help each other. I want to see us moving in that direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>For the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>For the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>For us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Yeah, for the girls. We’re saving lives here. Yeah. Yeah. We’ve got to save lives, and we got to let people know that transgender is nothing new. It’s always been part of the human condition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>All the way back to Africa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>All the way back to Africa, all the way to Africa. It’s interesting how contemporary Africans say that there’s no queers, there’s no African queers. But of course that’s not true. But Europeans brought, they didn’t bring queerness, they brought …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: and Andrea Horne together:\u003c/strong> homophobia and transphobia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>It was good continuing to build with you, Andrea, and you, Mei Mei. I will never forget. Don’t worry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I hope this is just the first conversation of many, because we really just scratched the surface.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> We really did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Continues\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Transgender elder Andrea Horne, in conversation with Zen Blossom, a 26-year-old transgender activist from Oakland who works with the TGIJP Black Trans Cultural Center. The center was founded by Miss Major, a trailblazing Black trans activist and who passed away this fall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that’s it for TCR Mag for this week. This interview was produced by me, Sasha Khokha with Srishti Prabha and Suzie Racho with help this week from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\">Gender Reveal\u003c/a> podcast for his help on this episode. And to KQED’s Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And by the way, if you didn’t catch our series on trans and nonbinary youth and people who love them, check out our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">Love You for You\u003c/a> series on our podcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">The California Report Magazine\u003c/a>. Your State, Your Stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades Out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>In a new series called ‘Love You For You,’ KQED’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">The California Report Magazine\u003c/a> host Sasha Khokha sat in on conversations between trans and nonbinary kids and the people who love them. Today, we talk with Sasha about the series.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">Check out the entire ‘Love You For You’ series \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5633152825&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Erica Cruz Guevara and welcome to the Bay, local news to keep you rooted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:00:05] Your adorable beanie baby beanie hat is so cute with the little bouncy thing on top of your headphones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:13] This is my colleague Sasha Khokha. She’s the host of the California Report magazine, a weekly show bringing in-depth storytelling and documentaries about our beautiful state. And I really wanted to talk with Sasha, who’s been thinking a lot lately, about trans kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:00:35] You know, I have a lot of amazing trans and non-binary kids in my life, and talking to those kids and talking to their families, I heard a lot of frustration that the media coverage of trans kids right now often doesn’t even include the voices of trans kids. And often flattens kids into just one dimension of their identity, which is their gender.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:03] For Sasha, these kids are so much more than that. They’re students, athletes, dancers, and siblings. And some are also thriving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:01:15] I think there’s a lot of power in hearing from parents, from grandparents, from elders who love and support transgender and non-binary kids so they can thrive, so they can find joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:33] So Sasha and her colleagues spent months putting together this series called Love You for You. Conversations between trans kids and the people who love them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child \u003c/strong>[00:01:47] Thanks for letting me be who I am.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother \u003c/strong>[00:01:49] Yeah. And thank you for letting me be your parent and for letting me love you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child \u003c/strong>[00:01:56] You’re welcome. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:00] The series Love You for You features six conversations between trans and non-binary kids and their loved ones. And today we’re gonna talk with Sasha about being a fly on the wall to these conversations as the trans community is under attack. That’s coming up right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:32] We’re talking about your series for the California Report magazine. I wonder if you can actually just start by walking me through the the thinking behind your series, the why.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:02:43] The thinking was there’s a lot out there about trans kids being in the crosshairs of the Trump administration right now. But I think what’s really missing are stories of what it looks like when kids have love and support from their families and because of that are insulated a little bit from what’s happening in the outside world. That’s not to say that backdrop doesn’t exist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:12] Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:03:13] But I think there’s a lot of power in hearing from parents, from grandparents, from elders who love and support transgender and nonbinary kids so they can thrive, so they can find joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:31] And these were essentially sort of like StoryCorps style episodes where you’re not in it but you just hear these kids talking with these people who are important in their lives about who they are and why they love them and just these very sweet conversations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:03:50] Right, and that’s part of why we wanted to do these as conversations that could unfold naturally without me as the journalist coming to their house and sticking a microphone in their face and getting a sound bite or two from a kid. And we also really wanted to give these kids agency so they picked the adults or the other people they wanted to be in conversation with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:17] With can you explain the range of people that we hear from in this series?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:04:23] So we start off with an eight year old non-binary kid in conversation with their mom. I like took this sock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child \u003c/strong>[00:04:31] I like to play soccer and read, and my family’s from Asia like Vietnam and Taiwan and my pronouns they them and I’m eight years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:04:43] And that was actually the first conversation we recorded. And it was kind of hard because the kid was really shy and was only eight and was a little bit soft spoken on the microphone. It was a little bit stuffed up, so it was like a little bit hard to understand them. And their voice is so cute. Yeah, and I thought, oh my gosh, how’s this gonna go? Like, how are we gonna do all of these? But honestly, I think once they got warmed up and their mom really made them feel comfortable, it was quite a sweet conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child \u003c/strong>[00:05:15] What are you most proud of about me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother \u003c/strong>[00:05:19] That you knew when you were very young. You were only about four years old and you just kinda told me that you weren’t sure that you fit being either a boy or a girl, and you felt maybe like you were neither or both. And that was something for us to learn because we didn’t think kids that young knew that about themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:05:47] And especially about navigating pronouns with their Vietnamese and Taiwanese relatives because in some of their families’ home languages there are not gendered pronouns. And so it was just a really interesting conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother \u003c/strong>[00:06:03] And so for them everybody’s a they or they mix they mix he’s and she’s a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child \u003c/strong>[00:06:09] Maybe like the future could just be like people accept they them or trans just as like would they accept she or he right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:06:28] In some cases the kids chose actually to bring in someone who was not blood related to them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval \u003c/strong>[00:06:33] Beyond you being my aunt, you’re one of my closest friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:06:37] One of the conversations was with sixteen year old Hunter Stoval, who decided to talk with his special auntie, whose name’s Shirin Amini. She actually came out as a lesbian in the nineteen nineties, and the first person she came out to was Hunter’s mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini \u003c/strong>[00:06:56] I think honestly, that your mom was the most supportive person in my life that was kind of a rock, like my rock of Gibraltar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:07:11] And so it was just a really lovely sort of full circle conversation and it got at some of the queer and trans history that these kids also wanted to know about from their elders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval \u003c/strong>[00:07:22] I think everyone should have a shrine in their life. Like an older role model who’s also your friend who you can tell anything and you know they won’t tell your parents unless you ask them to and call you when you need anything. And just having that mentor-friend combination is just so perfect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:07:47] The last two episodes are actually young people in conversation with transgender elders in their seventies who have seen the long arc of transgender history here in California and who have been through a lot and had a lot of wisdom to share with young people. And I think those are some of the most touching conversations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:15] I mean, were there any themes that really emerged from the conversations in this series?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:08:22] I mean, I think one of them is just intergenerational exchange.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne \u003c/strong>[00:08:26] America teaches us not to really care about our old folks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:08:31] I’m thinking of a conversation with Andrea Horne, who is she says she’s a woman of a certain age. She didn’t want to give her age. But she is a transgender elder here in San Francisco. She came to San Francisco from LA when she was fifteen to get away from her very unsupportive family. She was an actress, a model, a performer. She hung out with Sylvester in the 70s. And now she’s a historian who’s writing a book called How Black Trans Women Changed the World.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne \u003c/strong>[00:09:06] But before World War II, we were considered just part of the community. Mm-hmm. As long as you stay in your lane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom \u003c/strong>[00:09:14] And what were those lanes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne \u003c/strong>[00:09:15] The lanes were hairdresser.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom \u003c/strong>[00:09:17] Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne \u003c/strong>[00:09:18] Sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom \u003c/strong>[00:09:19] Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne \u003c/strong>[00:09:20] Work in a bar of some sort. A show girl and housewife. But you know, that’s kinda that’s it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:09:29] And to see her in conversation with a younger black trans woman named Zen Blossom, talking about women from the 1800s, women from the early 1900s who lived their true authentic lives and passing down that wisdom was very intense, very moving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:51] Was there any moment that in any of these conversations that you sat in on that like surprised you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:09:58] Yes, I am th I’m thinking of the ten year old transgender girl who came with her grandpa, who lives in a rural conservative county in Northern California, and her older sister who is sixteen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister \u003c/strong>[00:10:16] Popo what do you hope that the future is like for trans kids and what do you plan on doing to support trans kids?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa \u003c/strong>[00:10:25] Oh, I support this one all the time. I’d do anything for her and she knows that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:10:31] She was so funny and vivacious and great. And again, I was worried, how’s a ten year old gonna do in this studio with all these microphones? And she’s an actor and she’s a performer. And at one point in the interview sh as we were wrapping up, she’s like, By the way, if there are any agents out there listening and you need somebody to cast\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister \u003c/strong>[00:10:51] If I really want to be a child actor, if there’s any agents listening, hello, I’m here. Hi. But another thing is I would love to like this, I love how I get to like share knowledge to other people that might not know about being trans or stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:11:12] And another thing she did that was really surprising is when she was asked, you know, what do you do when you get bullied, she actually just burst into song.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister \u003c/strong>[00:11:19] They’re just doing it because they’re insecure about yourself and they just want to tear you down even though you’re a confident, amazing person and they’re not. So just walk away and say I’m better than you and sing your way out. That’s what I do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:11:39] So I guess what was most surprising to me was just how joyful and funny some of these kids were and their self-confidence. Sometimes transgender and non-binary kids, gender-expansive kids have to grow up a little bit faster because they’ve got to face the world that sometimes is hostile to them. Sometimes they have to make choices about gender-affirming care. A lot of decisions that sometimes make them have to, you know, have a level of maturity that we might not always see in other kids their age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:12:16] Right. Like an awareness of of who you are. I don’t I don’t think I was that fully formed when I was ten, for example. But yeah\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:12:28] There’s authenticity in who these kids are because they’ve had to fight for who they are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:12:35] What was your main takeaway from from sitting in these conversations, Sasha, and and working on this series?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:12:44] When we first thought about this series, I wanted to have something that parents of trans and non-binary kids could listen to with their kids. That was sort of the focus audience. But as we’ve put the episodes out and we’re hearing from people, it’s been actually so moving to hear how adults are connecting with the content and adults who may be in the trans community and not connected to young people in their lives are seeing themselves reflected. And also how people who may not have much connection with trans people at all are hearing the joy and the courage in these kids’ voices and really feeling moved by it.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>In a new series called ‘Love You For You,’ KQED’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">The California Report Magazine\u003c/a> host Sasha Khokha sat in on conversations between trans and nonbinary kids and the people who love them. Today, we talk with Sasha about the series.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">Check out the entire ‘Love You For You’ series \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5633152825&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Erica Cruz Guevara and welcome to the Bay, local news to keep you rooted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:00:05] Your adorable beanie baby beanie hat is so cute with the little bouncy thing on top of your headphones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:13] This is my colleague Sasha Khokha. She’s the host of the California Report magazine, a weekly show bringing in-depth storytelling and documentaries about our beautiful state. And I really wanted to talk with Sasha, who’s been thinking a lot lately, about trans kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:00:35] You know, I have a lot of amazing trans and non-binary kids in my life, and talking to those kids and talking to their families, I heard a lot of frustration that the media coverage of trans kids right now often doesn’t even include the voices of trans kids. And often flattens kids into just one dimension of their identity, which is their gender.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:03] For Sasha, these kids are so much more than that. They’re students, athletes, dancers, and siblings. And some are also thriving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:01:15] I think there’s a lot of power in hearing from parents, from grandparents, from elders who love and support transgender and non-binary kids so they can thrive, so they can find joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:33] So Sasha and her colleagues spent months putting together this series called Love You for You. Conversations between trans kids and the people who love them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child \u003c/strong>[00:01:47] Thanks for letting me be who I am.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother \u003c/strong>[00:01:49] Yeah. And thank you for letting me be your parent and for letting me love you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child \u003c/strong>[00:01:56] You’re welcome. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:00] The series Love You for You features six conversations between trans and non-binary kids and their loved ones. And today we’re gonna talk with Sasha about being a fly on the wall to these conversations as the trans community is under attack. That’s coming up right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:32] We’re talking about your series for the California Report magazine. I wonder if you can actually just start by walking me through the the thinking behind your series, the why.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:02:43] The thinking was there’s a lot out there about trans kids being in the crosshairs of the Trump administration right now. But I think what’s really missing are stories of what it looks like when kids have love and support from their families and because of that are insulated a little bit from what’s happening in the outside world. That’s not to say that backdrop doesn’t exist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:12] Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:03:13] But I think there’s a lot of power in hearing from parents, from grandparents, from elders who love and support transgender and nonbinary kids so they can thrive, so they can find joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:31] And these were essentially sort of like StoryCorps style episodes where you’re not in it but you just hear these kids talking with these people who are important in their lives about who they are and why they love them and just these very sweet conversations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:03:50] Right, and that’s part of why we wanted to do these as conversations that could unfold naturally without me as the journalist coming to their house and sticking a microphone in their face and getting a sound bite or two from a kid. And we also really wanted to give these kids agency so they picked the adults or the other people they wanted to be in conversation with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:17] With can you explain the range of people that we hear from in this series?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:04:23] So we start off with an eight year old non-binary kid in conversation with their mom. I like took this sock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child \u003c/strong>[00:04:31] I like to play soccer and read, and my family’s from Asia like Vietnam and Taiwan and my pronouns they them and I’m eight years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:04:43] And that was actually the first conversation we recorded. And it was kind of hard because the kid was really shy and was only eight and was a little bit soft spoken on the microphone. It was a little bit stuffed up, so it was like a little bit hard to understand them. And their voice is so cute. Yeah, and I thought, oh my gosh, how’s this gonna go? Like, how are we gonna do all of these? But honestly, I think once they got warmed up and their mom really made them feel comfortable, it was quite a sweet conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child \u003c/strong>[00:05:15] What are you most proud of about me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother \u003c/strong>[00:05:19] That you knew when you were very young. You were only about four years old and you just kinda told me that you weren’t sure that you fit being either a boy or a girl, and you felt maybe like you were neither or both. And that was something for us to learn because we didn’t think kids that young knew that about themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:05:47] And especially about navigating pronouns with their Vietnamese and Taiwanese relatives because in some of their families’ home languages there are not gendered pronouns. And so it was just a really interesting conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother \u003c/strong>[00:06:03] And so for them everybody’s a they or they mix they mix he’s and she’s a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child \u003c/strong>[00:06:09] Maybe like the future could just be like people accept they them or trans just as like would they accept she or he right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:06:28] In some cases the kids chose actually to bring in someone who was not blood related to them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval \u003c/strong>[00:06:33] Beyond you being my aunt, you’re one of my closest friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:06:37] One of the conversations was with sixteen year old Hunter Stoval, who decided to talk with his special auntie, whose name’s Shirin Amini. She actually came out as a lesbian in the nineteen nineties, and the first person she came out to was Hunter’s mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini \u003c/strong>[00:06:56] I think honestly, that your mom was the most supportive person in my life that was kind of a rock, like my rock of Gibraltar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:07:11] And so it was just a really lovely sort of full circle conversation and it got at some of the queer and trans history that these kids also wanted to know about from their elders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval \u003c/strong>[00:07:22] I think everyone should have a shrine in their life. Like an older role model who’s also your friend who you can tell anything and you know they won’t tell your parents unless you ask them to and call you when you need anything. And just having that mentor-friend combination is just so perfect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:07:47] The last two episodes are actually young people in conversation with transgender elders in their seventies who have seen the long arc of transgender history here in California and who have been through a lot and had a lot of wisdom to share with young people. And I think those are some of the most touching conversations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:15] I mean, were there any themes that really emerged from the conversations in this series?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:08:22] I mean, I think one of them is just intergenerational exchange.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne \u003c/strong>[00:08:26] America teaches us not to really care about our old folks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:08:31] I’m thinking of a conversation with Andrea Horne, who is she says she’s a woman of a certain age. She didn’t want to give her age. But she is a transgender elder here in San Francisco. She came to San Francisco from LA when she was fifteen to get away from her very unsupportive family. She was an actress, a model, a performer. She hung out with Sylvester in the 70s. And now she’s a historian who’s writing a book called How Black Trans Women Changed the World.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne \u003c/strong>[00:09:06] But before World War II, we were considered just part of the community. Mm-hmm. As long as you stay in your lane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom \u003c/strong>[00:09:14] And what were those lanes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne \u003c/strong>[00:09:15] The lanes were hairdresser.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom \u003c/strong>[00:09:17] Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne \u003c/strong>[00:09:18] Sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom \u003c/strong>[00:09:19] Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne \u003c/strong>[00:09:20] Work in a bar of some sort. A show girl and housewife. But you know, that’s kinda that’s it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:09:29] And to see her in conversation with a younger black trans woman named Zen Blossom, talking about women from the 1800s, women from the early 1900s who lived their true authentic lives and passing down that wisdom was very intense, very moving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:51] Was there any moment that in any of these conversations that you sat in on that like surprised you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:09:58] Yes, I am th I’m thinking of the ten year old transgender girl who came with her grandpa, who lives in a rural conservative county in Northern California, and her older sister who is sixteen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister \u003c/strong>[00:10:16] Popo what do you hope that the future is like for trans kids and what do you plan on doing to support trans kids?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa \u003c/strong>[00:10:25] Oh, I support this one all the time. I’d do anything for her and she knows that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:10:31] She was so funny and vivacious and great. And again, I was worried, how’s a ten year old gonna do in this studio with all these microphones? And she’s an actor and she’s a performer. And at one point in the interview sh as we were wrapping up, she’s like, By the way, if there are any agents out there listening and you need somebody to cast\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister \u003c/strong>[00:10:51] If I really want to be a child actor, if there’s any agents listening, hello, I’m here. Hi. But another thing is I would love to like this, I love how I get to like share knowledge to other people that might not know about being trans or stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:11:12] And another thing she did that was really surprising is when she was asked, you know, what do you do when you get bullied, she actually just burst into song.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister \u003c/strong>[00:11:19] They’re just doing it because they’re insecure about yourself and they just want to tear you down even though you’re a confident, amazing person and they’re not. So just walk away and say I’m better than you and sing your way out. That’s what I do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:11:39] So I guess what was most surprising to me was just how joyful and funny some of these kids were and their self-confidence. Sometimes transgender and non-binary kids, gender-expansive kids have to grow up a little bit faster because they’ve got to face the world that sometimes is hostile to them. Sometimes they have to make choices about gender-affirming care. A lot of decisions that sometimes make them have to, you know, have a level of maturity that we might not always see in other kids their age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:12:16] Right. Like an awareness of of who you are. I don’t I don’t think I was that fully formed when I was ten, for example. But yeah\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:12:28] There’s authenticity in who these kids are because they’ve had to fight for who they are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:12:35] What was your main takeaway from from sitting in these conversations, Sasha, and and working on this series?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:12:44] When we first thought about this series, I wanted to have something that parents of trans and non-binary kids could listen to with their kids. That was sort of the focus audience. But as we’ve put the episodes out and we’re hearing from people, it’s been actually so moving to hear how adults are connecting with the content and adults who may be in the trans community and not connected to young people in their lives are seeing themselves reflected. And also how people who may not have much connection with trans people at all are hearing the joy and the courage in these kids’ voices and really feeling moved by it.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "californias-trans-elders-share-decades-of-wisdom-and-advice-with-younger-generations",
"title": "'It's Self-Love': Trans Elder Donna Personna Shares Advice With a Younger Generation",
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"headTitle": "‘It’s Self-Love’: Trans Elder Donna Personna Shares Advice With a Younger Generation | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the last few weeks, we’ve been sharing conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them — a series called \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">\u003cem>Love You for You.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we enter \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13977169/transgender-history-bay-area-san-francisco-lgbtq-trans-bay\">Transgender Awareness Month\u003c/a>, we shift the lens toward intergenerational stories — young people in their twenties in conversation with transgender elders whose lives trace the long arc of LGBTQ+ activism in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These bonus episodes carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the family conversations featured earlier in the series. They offer deeper context to the ongoing fight for safety, dignity and self-expression.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, we meet \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13960471/donna-personna-interview-lgbtq-history\">Donna Personna\u003c/a>, a 79-year-old transgender Chicana artist, activist and playwright who grew up in San José and now lives in San Francisco. A longtime drag performer and advocate, Donna has devoted decades to uplifting the LGBTQ+ community. In 2019, she was named \u003ca href=\"https://cdn.sfpride.org/press/RELEASE-Community-Grand-Marshal-Announcement-SF-Pride-2019-FINAL.pdf\">Lifetime Achievement Grand Marshal of the San Francisco Pride Parade\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She also co-wrote \u003ca href=\"https://www.comptonscafeteriariot.com/\">Compton’s Cafeteria Riot\u003c/a>, an immersive play that brings to life a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/11838357/in-66-on-one-hot-august-night-trans-women-fought-for-their-rights\">1966 uprising in San Francisco’s Tenderloin District\u003c/a> — when trans women and drag queens stood up to police harassment, three years before Stonewall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063818\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063818\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A photo of Donna Personna from 2014 is displayed at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In this episode, Donna speaks with Quetzali (who also goes by “Q”), a 23-year-old Latinx nonbinary organizer from Sacramento who uses they/them/elle pronouns and who is using only their first name to protect their identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they reflect on how Latinx gender-expansive identities have evolved across generations, from quiet survival in the shadows to living freely. Donna also shares how she continues to cultivate self-love and resilience in a world that still tests both — grounding today’s struggles in a lifetime of resistance, care and optimism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guests:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>79-year-old Donna Personna (she/her)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>23-year-old Quetzali (they/them)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8007728606\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> I’m Sasha Khokha, this is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">The California Report Magazine.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the last few weeks, we’ve been bringing you conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them so they can thrive. The series is called “Love You for You.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, as we continue to mark Transgender Awareness month, we’re going to hear young people in their 20s in conversation with transgender elders. Their lives reflect the long arc of transgender and LGBTQ+ activism here in California.[aside postID=news_12061805 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/1.png']And a heads up, these intergenerational conversations carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the ones we’ve been diving into with the family conversations in “Love You for You.” So parents, you might want to listen before deciding whether to share with kids. This week, we hear from Donna Personna, a 79-year-old transgender Chicana activist who grew up in San José and now lives in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She’s a celebrated drag performer, artist, and playwright and she’s devoted decades of her life to activism for the LGBTQ+ community. In 2019, she was named Lifetime Achievement Grand Marshall of the San Francisco Pride Parade. She also co-wrote the immersive play Compton’s Cafeteria Riot. It’s about a 1966 uprising when transgender women in San Francisco’s Tenderloin District stood up to police brutality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Film clip fades in “I’d hammer out justice, I’d hammer out freedom, I’d hammer out love.” (singing)\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\nOften called the “Stonewall of the West,” the Compton’s Cafeteria riot marked a turning point for transgender visibility and rights.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Film clip fades in “I’d hammer out justice…” (singing)]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003c/i>We’re going to hear Donna in conversation with Quetzali, a 23-year-old Latinx, nonbinary activist from Sacramento, who also goes by Q and uses the pronouns they/them/elle. Just a note, we’re only using Quetzali’s first name to protect their identity. Donna and Quetzali reflect on cultivating self-love and resilience in a world that continues to test both.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063821\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063821\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Quetzali, left, places their hand on Donna Personna’s hand as Donna speaks about her life, at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, you’re an amazing artist, a prominent transgender rights activist. You’ve used many different mediums of art to share important messages about civil rights, equity, inclusion. And I do hope that I can learn a lot from, you know, everything that you’ve been through and all of your wisdom and guidance and teachings. And so, I would like to start off by asking you how old you were when you came out and what was it like for you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Okay, well, I was born in 1946, and at that time, there was no community. In fact, it was not a thing to be homosexual or gay. And when it was brought up, it was an aberration. It was rebellious. And what I read was that a child that shows these signs should be separated from the family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Where did you read that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>In a book in our home, we had a library and there was a medical book in there and I love to read. I mean, my father was a Baptist minister, and as a 10-year-old boy at that time, when I read that maybe this child should be separated from the family, I thought that I could ruin my family. That was on my shoulders. So I never breathed a word about that. And there was no one to talk to anyway.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063820\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063820\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1270\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED-160x102.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED-1536x975.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Quetzali, left, places their hand on Donna Personna’s hand as Donna speaks about her life, at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>So it took me 59, at the age of 59, I came out. If you want to call it that, but I resent that, you know, coming out. Where was I to come out of? But so to answer your question. Now I’ll ask you, when did you come out?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>From a very young age, my parents have always been very supportive in a way in which I express myself, and so I feel like I’ve always been me. You know, there was really never that sort of time where I’m like, okay, I’m not myself or I have to be somebody else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna:\u003c/b> Q, you use the pronouns they, them. Can you tell me more about your gender identity?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>So as someone who is trying to get in deeper touch with their roots and practice sort of like more like indigenous native ways. I feel like I don’t align very much with Western gender binary. And so before the Spanish colonization, gender in many Mexican Indigenous cultures was not strictly binary, right, similarly to how here in North America, Indigenous tribes have, right, like the two-spirit gender identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As I learn more from my elders in my community, I found that I deeply resonated with the idea of not being seen as a man or a woman and this sort of unique cultural identity that embodies both the masculine and the feminine and is sort of like a bridge between the two.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>That makes sense to me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>I feel like part of the reason why I didn’t formally come out, especially to the older generation of my family, is because I do worry, right, about their reactions, right? Like my parents, my sister, my inner circle of friends and close family, my chosen family all accept me as I am, but because our culture, right, is rooted in machismo. And violent patriarchal ideology, I worry about coming out to the rest of my family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Yeah, well, I want to say that when the coming out, I’m old, I’m saying at 79, I was always this way and you know, the way that I wanna teach people if they need to, and I’ll say that I’m invited to, institutions that are now accepting transgender, gay people into their old folks’ homes, I’ll say. l, I teach the staff, don’t ask somebody about their preference, sexual preference because you know that that implies a choice see who I am was not a choice. It’s who I was born.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>I resonate with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So, like I heard you say, accepted, I am not here to be accepted. I come for approval. I don’t care about approval. I come pre-approved. So that’s an aggression too. Like, oh, when did you want acceptance? No, not from you. I’m rebellious in that sense. Like the thing is, whether or not I accept you, you know. Who gave you the power to accept me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>My father was a Baptist minister, my mother was a preacher’s wife. But also in my home, as it sounds like what happened to you, I got total, unconditional love. Yeah, unconditional love. And, you know, my brothers, my brothers were football players, amateur boxers, wrestlers. Never did any one of them ever say to me, “We wish you would act another way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s where I learned that this is where I belong. And so what’s happening outside, in a way, doesn’t matter, but I wanna stay safe. I wanna to stay safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Did you ever talk to your family about your gender or sexual identity with them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>No, I didn’t. I was in my own universe. There was nobody else in this universe. I had stories, you now, I’m gonna say they were secrets, kind of, that I did not give life to. And so, no, I didn’t tell my brothers and sisters and my mother and my father. But I do say this, my mother was my best friend. And I feel that she knew something that she wasn’t saying. Like, she was very protective of me. And I used to, I like to say, I was my mother’s favorite. But I had 14 brothers and sisters say, no, I was the favorite.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And I can relate with you on being very close to my mother, my mother and my sister [are] also my best friends and I also didn’t formally come out to anybody but when I took a human sexuality class in university, I actually feel like I got to understand both of my parents better, right? We had an assignment and I offhandedly asked my parents a question about, you know, their own sexual identities their own…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna: \u003c/b>You did?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Yes, and we actually had a great conversation, a very long conversation right at the dinner table and I feel like I’m very grateful for that time and for that class because I feel like otherwise I wouldn’t have got to know my parents, especially my mother, on a deeper level like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I’m happy that that happened for you. In my case, my parents, nobody in my family ever talked about anything about sex. I didn’t have that, I’m going to teach you about the birds and the bees and tamales. No, there was no conversation like that. And that’s just the way it was. I’m glad for you that you had that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali\u003c/b>: So do you think that you being Latina, you being Mexicana has impacted your sexual identity or your gender identity in a way that, or in any way, I guess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I learned gentility, you know, and being kind and respecting each other. And the other thing that one of the things learned the most was do for other people. Nothing that you do is for yourself. Bring other people with you. Make this a better world. And you know, my father is a Baptist minister. Every week that I heard that, and you know I used to resent it as a child because, like my father, and I’m so proud of this, he founded nine churches in his lifetime, nine. Some of them are still operating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Fantastic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Yes. People go to that place for shelter, for comfort, for help and to feel good about themselves. And I saw it over and over and again. Like a young woman would come to the church and her husband left her or something, she comes with her kids, her children. They found her a place to live. They connected her to a job, things like that. So, you know, without anybody, and my mother and father never told me, ever, did they say, ‘This is what we want you to do.’ They never did. It was modeling, they call modeling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Okay, so Donna, are you religious and does religion play a role in how you navigate your life then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I’m not religious, but I’m a saint. No, that’s a joke. I’m not religious because, and you know, I was a rebel. See, like, that’s another thing about me. I’m never anything but me, and that’s been all my life. And that gets me in trouble sometimes. The Sunday school teacher one day was talking about, saying dancing is bad. They said dancing leads to sex, basically. That’s what they said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I was a teenager. I liked to dance, and I didn’t want to think that’s a bad thing. At that time, we were planning a ski trip, our class, Sunday school class. The Sunday school teacher said, “What would you think if you saw Jesus dancing at one of your teen club dances?” And I said, “Well, how would it look if Jesus was skiing, going down a slope, ski slope, with his long hair and a long dress?” (Laughs) So they kicked me out of that church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, you moved to San Francisco in the early ’60s as a teenager and found community at a diner called Compton’s Cafeteria in the Tenderloin. I didn’t really know much about that, the Stonewall of California, until I saw the play that you co-wrote about the violent and constant police brutality and harassment of trans people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from the play fades in\u003cbr>\n“Why, why do you have to be like this? What did we do to you? somebody must have loved you at some point in your life. Are you finished, little girl? \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>It was amazingly produced. It evoked a lot of strong emotions about complex topics that, unfortunately, still persist today. The character Rusty is based on your life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Persona: \u003c/b>Yes, yes, it is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003ci>“I’m not supposed to be here. My parents they would be out of their minds, my father is a preacher for God’s sake.” \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Could you talk a little bit more about what it was like to be out during the 60s and what it was [like] at Compton’s?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I wanted to get away from San José and my mother and father and my brothers and sisters. And I wanted to explore what was going on. I was a little girl inside. And I want to explore that, but I didn’t want to do that in front of my family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I took a Greyhound bus when I was 16, 17 years old. I’ll make a joke about it. I’ll say, Mom, I’m going to go to a young men’s group, a church, okay? I’ll be gone for a while. Then I got on a Greyhound bus and I came to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I walked around and I didn’t know what to do, and I came upon Compton’s, and Compton was an all-night diner in the Tenderloin. I walked in there, and I’ll say it like this, this is not kosher these days or culturally appropriate, but I was deceived. I saw these beautiful women and it turned out they were born males. Well, I became friends with them. I kept going there week after week after week. And I heard their stories. We would sit at the table drinking coffee and [eating] toast, staying there for hours, and I heard their stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003cbr>\n“If my family ever found out anything about this, they’d get an exorcist. I wish I were kidding.”\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> Donna, in the play, the character based on you, Rusty, is much younger and innocent. Being taught by other elders in the community about the hardships and the realities that trans women face.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I feel like I’m leading a double life. Maybe I should just go home, something bad is gonna happen, I can feel it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> How do you feel about seeing yourself portrayed as that younger version [of] you today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I still relate to the Rusty character. That’s someone who doesn’t know the ropes and who doesn’t want to hurt their family, don’t want to bring danger to their family. I want the world to know that people like me and you are throwaways, or the world doesn’t care about us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>And so people can exploit us, they can harm us, and nobody is gonna care too much about it. And so I wanted that to be told. Our story is really not a story about transgender people in my mind. It’s a story about humans, people being human. I really want the world to know that transgender people are wonderful people. They’re ordinary people. They’re like everybody else, and they want only those things that everybody else gets invited to have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Definitely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So, I’m gonna guess that you don’t know a lot of these experiences at your age and where you come from and how you’ve lived, but that’s where I came from, and so down deep inside me I’m still that little Rusty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>How were you able to create a safe space for yourself in the community and foster that sense of camaraderie and safety among by other queer individuals?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I, this is gonna sound conceited, because I am, I guess, I was always popular. I was the popular one. As a teenager, everybody liked me, and everybody wanted to be my friends, boys and girls and men and women. And I used to get invited to all these parties. It’s not unlike today. I had my choice of parties on Saturday night because when I went to a party, I would go up to the girls and say, “Let’s dance.” I started the dancing, I broke the ice for everybody. And so I always liked myself. It’s self-love. And that’s not a bad thing, and not on my block. But, and I used to have to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, but I made it light.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, Q, you asked me about community and how it was for me. I’d like to know where you found community and like-minded people for you when you were younger than you are now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And so, you know, thankfully, because of my upbringing, both of my parents are human rights activists, and so I was exposed to a diverse group of people from many different walks of life, and I was fortunate to be able to find mentors and elders that would give me love and guidance. But unfortunately, I haven’t really participated a lot in the queer community or queer activism due to the predominantly white nature of these spaces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> Do you have any advice, or what other advice do you have for trans and gender expansive people of my generation about resilience, about getting through these tough times, about being smarter, right? What sort of tidbits of wisdom do you give in this regard?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>The basic thing I would say is, first and foremost, love yourself. Love yourself. And I promise you, people will love you. Know that you have a right. You’re not asking for something, ‘maybe someday people will let me do this or let me do that or let me be this.’ No. You’re a human being and you deserve it all. I’ve had a cab driver told me, a transgender woman told me I don’t expect to live over 35. I said, I said, you know, I’m in my seventies. I’m not, they don’t just let me live. I’m thriving. I am loved. I get to do the mightiest things in life. And that’s because, and I would say, don’t be a victim. And I compare it to the animal kingdom. Like, I’m sorry to say that, but that’s the way it is. They look for the weakest one. And they say, let’s gnaw on this one. So I’m not a victim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I would say to my younger transgender community, don’t identify as a victim. Identify as a warrior, a fighter. And also, I would say, bring other people with you. Don’t do anything alone. You’re gonna be stronger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So find community and do things not for you. You know that sounds strong, but like really and truly. I don’t do anything. I don’t think I do anything for myself. I have it all, but I’m doing it for you. And I think that that’s lovely. I think it’s lovely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Sometimes it’s very easy to fall into the disappointment to only focus on the negativity and so it is really important to find your community, to find resilience, to find hope. And speaking of hope, do you feel more or less hopeful about the future of trans and gender expansive people now than before, especially considering our current administration?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I want to ask you the same question. How do you feel about that for yourself in 2025?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>You, for me, are one of the giants of the movement, the human rights movement focusing on queer transgender individuals. And so it is really important to acknowledge and validate all of the work that our elders have done for us. There are definitely still things that we need to work on to improve together, right? Mobilize to unify, and you know to continue to protest and to fight for these rights that everybody deserves. Everybody deserves dignity and respect, regardless of how they choose to identify themselves, because we’re human.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I do feel hopeful. The play actually gave me a sort of boost of radical optimism. It’s important, you know, to continue to fight because there are other Rustys out there, you know, trying to figure out how to navigate the world being who they are. And so I do feel hopeful, and I feel that things can still continue to change for the better at the same time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna:\u003c/b> Harvey Milk, you know, was famous for saying, “You gotta give them hope.” Hope is essential, and you know, I, neither I nor you, I can’t see tomorrow, I can see next week. But I can fill it with, and I got to get up in the morning and go do something. We need it now more than ever. That’s how I feel. Because I would say something that’s different today than 50 years ago. I heard this somewhere, like the shy, I think they called it the shy Republican. Like, people weren’t telling me what they were thinking of me. Well, now they’re not shy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>And you know, that’s good and bad. I know my enemy, whereas I didn’t before. Right, so I take hope and this knowledge and like, yes, I need to know where I stand with you. But I, you know, on a very personal level, I am very terrified for myself. Because it’s out there. In a way, nothing has changed. We’ve come back, and I’ll say this, that man that just got killed, Charlie Kirk, I saw on the news the first moments after it happened. A news reporter talked to a student, a white young, white woman with bleached, blonde hair. And she said, oh, he was talking about how transgender people are the most violent, among the most violent people and do the most crimes in this country. What? You know, like I would have said, “Give me the names. Name some of these transgender people that are the most violent.” Me, Donna Personna, I’ve never slapped anyone in my life. I never have. Anyway, that, like, wow, and we have to push against that. So I’m hopeful, but I’m frightened out of my mind, and I have to keep going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, I’d like to give you a really heartfelt thank you for speaking with me, for sharing your knowledge and your wisdom with me for continuing to be a fearless advocate for our community and I feel very empowered by you. I feel very hopeful. I feel very optimistic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>You’re welcome for that, Q, and I want to say, encouraged by you just being here. You know, I’ve done a lot. I’ve had many, many adventures where I was nervous, scared, and thinking, am I gonna come through? And to see you here right now, I understand that you are out of your comfort zone and you’re willing to go there for the greater good. And I’m also recognized that I’m going to get tired at some point. I only want to live to be 105 or something. I look at you and I think, I can see that they are going to be doing this for the next 50, 60 years. And that really encourages me, makes me feel good. And I appreciate that, and I want to thank you for that right now. You’re very intelligent, or I don’t need to say that, but I like your intelligence and you know what’s what and how to reach out to other people and have them hear you. So I’m grateful for that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And thank you so much, that really means so much to me, Donna.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Did that feel good?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Yes. Yes. How does it feel to you? I was going to cry at some point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I feel, you know, like we’re friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>No, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I feel like we are friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Celebrated transgender elder Donna Personna, in conversation with Quetzali, a youth activist from Sacramento. \u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And thats it for TCR Mag for this week. This interview was produced by me, Sasha Khokha, Srishti Prabha and Suzie Racho with help this week from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\">Gender Reveal podcast,\u003c/a> for his help on this episode. And to KQED’s Robert Chehoski, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if you didn’t catch our series on trans and nonbinary youth and people who love them, check out our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">Love You for You\u003c/a> series in our podcast feed. The California Report Magazine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Your State, Your Stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the last few weeks, we’ve been sharing conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them — a series called \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">\u003cem>Love You for You.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we enter \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13977169/transgender-history-bay-area-san-francisco-lgbtq-trans-bay\">Transgender Awareness Month\u003c/a>, we shift the lens toward intergenerational stories — young people in their twenties in conversation with transgender elders whose lives trace the long arc of LGBTQ+ activism in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These bonus episodes carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the family conversations featured earlier in the series. They offer deeper context to the ongoing fight for safety, dignity and self-expression.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, we meet \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13960471/donna-personna-interview-lgbtq-history\">Donna Personna\u003c/a>, a 79-year-old transgender Chicana artist, activist and playwright who grew up in San José and now lives in San Francisco. A longtime drag performer and advocate, Donna has devoted decades to uplifting the LGBTQ+ community. In 2019, she was named \u003ca href=\"https://cdn.sfpride.org/press/RELEASE-Community-Grand-Marshal-Announcement-SF-Pride-2019-FINAL.pdf\">Lifetime Achievement Grand Marshal of the San Francisco Pride Parade\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She also co-wrote \u003ca href=\"https://www.comptonscafeteriariot.com/\">Compton’s Cafeteria Riot\u003c/a>, an immersive play that brings to life a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/11838357/in-66-on-one-hot-august-night-trans-women-fought-for-their-rights\">1966 uprising in San Francisco’s Tenderloin District\u003c/a> — when trans women and drag queens stood up to police harassment, three years before Stonewall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063818\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063818\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A photo of Donna Personna from 2014 is displayed at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In this episode, Donna speaks with Quetzali (who also goes by “Q”), a 23-year-old Latinx nonbinary organizer from Sacramento who uses they/them/elle pronouns and who is using only their first name to protect their identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they reflect on how Latinx gender-expansive identities have evolved across generations, from quiet survival in the shadows to living freely. Donna also shares how she continues to cultivate self-love and resilience in a world that still tests both — grounding today’s struggles in a lifetime of resistance, care and optimism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guests:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>79-year-old Donna Personna (she/her)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>23-year-old Quetzali (they/them)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8007728606\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> I’m Sasha Khokha, this is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">The California Report Magazine.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the last few weeks, we’ve been bringing you conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them so they can thrive. The series is called “Love You for You.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, as we continue to mark Transgender Awareness month, we’re going to hear young people in their 20s in conversation with transgender elders. Their lives reflect the long arc of transgender and LGBTQ+ activism here in California.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>And a heads up, these intergenerational conversations carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the ones we’ve been diving into with the family conversations in “Love You for You.” So parents, you might want to listen before deciding whether to share with kids. This week, we hear from Donna Personna, a 79-year-old transgender Chicana activist who grew up in San José and now lives in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She’s a celebrated drag performer, artist, and playwright and she’s devoted decades of her life to activism for the LGBTQ+ community. In 2019, she was named Lifetime Achievement Grand Marshall of the San Francisco Pride Parade. She also co-wrote the immersive play Compton’s Cafeteria Riot. It’s about a 1966 uprising when transgender women in San Francisco’s Tenderloin District stood up to police brutality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Film clip fades in “I’d hammer out justice, I’d hammer out freedom, I’d hammer out love.” (singing)\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\nOften called the “Stonewall of the West,” the Compton’s Cafeteria riot marked a turning point for transgender visibility and rights.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Film clip fades in “I’d hammer out justice…” (singing)]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003c/i>We’re going to hear Donna in conversation with Quetzali, a 23-year-old Latinx, nonbinary activist from Sacramento, who also goes by Q and uses the pronouns they/them/elle. Just a note, we’re only using Quetzali’s first name to protect their identity. Donna and Quetzali reflect on cultivating self-love and resilience in a world that continues to test both.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063821\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063821\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Quetzali, left, places their hand on Donna Personna’s hand as Donna speaks about her life, at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, you’re an amazing artist, a prominent transgender rights activist. You’ve used many different mediums of art to share important messages about civil rights, equity, inclusion. And I do hope that I can learn a lot from, you know, everything that you’ve been through and all of your wisdom and guidance and teachings. And so, I would like to start off by asking you how old you were when you came out and what was it like for you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Okay, well, I was born in 1946, and at that time, there was no community. In fact, it was not a thing to be homosexual or gay. And when it was brought up, it was an aberration. It was rebellious. And what I read was that a child that shows these signs should be separated from the family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Where did you read that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>In a book in our home, we had a library and there was a medical book in there and I love to read. I mean, my father was a Baptist minister, and as a 10-year-old boy at that time, when I read that maybe this child should be separated from the family, I thought that I could ruin my family. That was on my shoulders. So I never breathed a word about that. And there was no one to talk to anyway.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063820\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063820\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1270\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED-160x102.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED-1536x975.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Quetzali, left, places their hand on Donna Personna’s hand as Donna speaks about her life, at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>So it took me 59, at the age of 59, I came out. If you want to call it that, but I resent that, you know, coming out. Where was I to come out of? But so to answer your question. Now I’ll ask you, when did you come out?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>From a very young age, my parents have always been very supportive in a way in which I express myself, and so I feel like I’ve always been me. You know, there was really never that sort of time where I’m like, okay, I’m not myself or I have to be somebody else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna:\u003c/b> Q, you use the pronouns they, them. Can you tell me more about your gender identity?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>So as someone who is trying to get in deeper touch with their roots and practice sort of like more like indigenous native ways. I feel like I don’t align very much with Western gender binary. And so before the Spanish colonization, gender in many Mexican Indigenous cultures was not strictly binary, right, similarly to how here in North America, Indigenous tribes have, right, like the two-spirit gender identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As I learn more from my elders in my community, I found that I deeply resonated with the idea of not being seen as a man or a woman and this sort of unique cultural identity that embodies both the masculine and the feminine and is sort of like a bridge between the two.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>That makes sense to me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>I feel like part of the reason why I didn’t formally come out, especially to the older generation of my family, is because I do worry, right, about their reactions, right? Like my parents, my sister, my inner circle of friends and close family, my chosen family all accept me as I am, but because our culture, right, is rooted in machismo. And violent patriarchal ideology, I worry about coming out to the rest of my family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Yeah, well, I want to say that when the coming out, I’m old, I’m saying at 79, I was always this way and you know, the way that I wanna teach people if they need to, and I’ll say that I’m invited to, institutions that are now accepting transgender, gay people into their old folks’ homes, I’ll say. l, I teach the staff, don’t ask somebody about their preference, sexual preference because you know that that implies a choice see who I am was not a choice. It’s who I was born.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>I resonate with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So, like I heard you say, accepted, I am not here to be accepted. I come for approval. I don’t care about approval. I come pre-approved. So that’s an aggression too. Like, oh, when did you want acceptance? No, not from you. I’m rebellious in that sense. Like the thing is, whether or not I accept you, you know. Who gave you the power to accept me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>My father was a Baptist minister, my mother was a preacher’s wife. But also in my home, as it sounds like what happened to you, I got total, unconditional love. Yeah, unconditional love. And, you know, my brothers, my brothers were football players, amateur boxers, wrestlers. Never did any one of them ever say to me, “We wish you would act another way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s where I learned that this is where I belong. And so what’s happening outside, in a way, doesn’t matter, but I wanna stay safe. I wanna to stay safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Did you ever talk to your family about your gender or sexual identity with them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>No, I didn’t. I was in my own universe. There was nobody else in this universe. I had stories, you now, I’m gonna say they were secrets, kind of, that I did not give life to. And so, no, I didn’t tell my brothers and sisters and my mother and my father. But I do say this, my mother was my best friend. And I feel that she knew something that she wasn’t saying. Like, she was very protective of me. And I used to, I like to say, I was my mother’s favorite. But I had 14 brothers and sisters say, no, I was the favorite.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And I can relate with you on being very close to my mother, my mother and my sister [are] also my best friends and I also didn’t formally come out to anybody but when I took a human sexuality class in university, I actually feel like I got to understand both of my parents better, right? We had an assignment and I offhandedly asked my parents a question about, you know, their own sexual identities their own…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna: \u003c/b>You did?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Yes, and we actually had a great conversation, a very long conversation right at the dinner table and I feel like I’m very grateful for that time and for that class because I feel like otherwise I wouldn’t have got to know my parents, especially my mother, on a deeper level like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I’m happy that that happened for you. In my case, my parents, nobody in my family ever talked about anything about sex. I didn’t have that, I’m going to teach you about the birds and the bees and tamales. No, there was no conversation like that. And that’s just the way it was. I’m glad for you that you had that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali\u003c/b>: So do you think that you being Latina, you being Mexicana has impacted your sexual identity or your gender identity in a way that, or in any way, I guess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I learned gentility, you know, and being kind and respecting each other. And the other thing that one of the things learned the most was do for other people. Nothing that you do is for yourself. Bring other people with you. Make this a better world. And you know, my father is a Baptist minister. Every week that I heard that, and you know I used to resent it as a child because, like my father, and I’m so proud of this, he founded nine churches in his lifetime, nine. Some of them are still operating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Fantastic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Yes. People go to that place for shelter, for comfort, for help and to feel good about themselves. And I saw it over and over and again. Like a young woman would come to the church and her husband left her or something, she comes with her kids, her children. They found her a place to live. They connected her to a job, things like that. So, you know, without anybody, and my mother and father never told me, ever, did they say, ‘This is what we want you to do.’ They never did. It was modeling, they call modeling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Okay, so Donna, are you religious and does religion play a role in how you navigate your life then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I’m not religious, but I’m a saint. No, that’s a joke. I’m not religious because, and you know, I was a rebel. See, like, that’s another thing about me. I’m never anything but me, and that’s been all my life. And that gets me in trouble sometimes. The Sunday school teacher one day was talking about, saying dancing is bad. They said dancing leads to sex, basically. That’s what they said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I was a teenager. I liked to dance, and I didn’t want to think that’s a bad thing. At that time, we were planning a ski trip, our class, Sunday school class. The Sunday school teacher said, “What would you think if you saw Jesus dancing at one of your teen club dances?” And I said, “Well, how would it look if Jesus was skiing, going down a slope, ski slope, with his long hair and a long dress?” (Laughs) So they kicked me out of that church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, you moved to San Francisco in the early ’60s as a teenager and found community at a diner called Compton’s Cafeteria in the Tenderloin. I didn’t really know much about that, the Stonewall of California, until I saw the play that you co-wrote about the violent and constant police brutality and harassment of trans people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from the play fades in\u003cbr>\n“Why, why do you have to be like this? What did we do to you? somebody must have loved you at some point in your life. Are you finished, little girl? \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>It was amazingly produced. It evoked a lot of strong emotions about complex topics that, unfortunately, still persist today. The character Rusty is based on your life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Persona: \u003c/b>Yes, yes, it is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003ci>“I’m not supposed to be here. My parents they would be out of their minds, my father is a preacher for God’s sake.” \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Could you talk a little bit more about what it was like to be out during the 60s and what it was [like] at Compton’s?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I wanted to get away from San José and my mother and father and my brothers and sisters. And I wanted to explore what was going on. I was a little girl inside. And I want to explore that, but I didn’t want to do that in front of my family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I took a Greyhound bus when I was 16, 17 years old. I’ll make a joke about it. I’ll say, Mom, I’m going to go to a young men’s group, a church, okay? I’ll be gone for a while. Then I got on a Greyhound bus and I came to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I walked around and I didn’t know what to do, and I came upon Compton’s, and Compton was an all-night diner in the Tenderloin. I walked in there, and I’ll say it like this, this is not kosher these days or culturally appropriate, but I was deceived. I saw these beautiful women and it turned out they were born males. Well, I became friends with them. I kept going there week after week after week. And I heard their stories. We would sit at the table drinking coffee and [eating] toast, staying there for hours, and I heard their stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003cbr>\n“If my family ever found out anything about this, they’d get an exorcist. I wish I were kidding.”\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> Donna, in the play, the character based on you, Rusty, is much younger and innocent. Being taught by other elders in the community about the hardships and the realities that trans women face.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I feel like I’m leading a double life. Maybe I should just go home, something bad is gonna happen, I can feel it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> How do you feel about seeing yourself portrayed as that younger version [of] you today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I still relate to the Rusty character. That’s someone who doesn’t know the ropes and who doesn’t want to hurt their family, don’t want to bring danger to their family. I want the world to know that people like me and you are throwaways, or the world doesn’t care about us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>And so people can exploit us, they can harm us, and nobody is gonna care too much about it. And so I wanted that to be told. Our story is really not a story about transgender people in my mind. It’s a story about humans, people being human. I really want the world to know that transgender people are wonderful people. They’re ordinary people. They’re like everybody else, and they want only those things that everybody else gets invited to have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Definitely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So, I’m gonna guess that you don’t know a lot of these experiences at your age and where you come from and how you’ve lived, but that’s where I came from, and so down deep inside me I’m still that little Rusty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>How were you able to create a safe space for yourself in the community and foster that sense of camaraderie and safety among by other queer individuals?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I, this is gonna sound conceited, because I am, I guess, I was always popular. I was the popular one. As a teenager, everybody liked me, and everybody wanted to be my friends, boys and girls and men and women. And I used to get invited to all these parties. It’s not unlike today. I had my choice of parties on Saturday night because when I went to a party, I would go up to the girls and say, “Let’s dance.” I started the dancing, I broke the ice for everybody. And so I always liked myself. It’s self-love. And that’s not a bad thing, and not on my block. But, and I used to have to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, but I made it light.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, Q, you asked me about community and how it was for me. I’d like to know where you found community and like-minded people for you when you were younger than you are now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And so, you know, thankfully, because of my upbringing, both of my parents are human rights activists, and so I was exposed to a diverse group of people from many different walks of life, and I was fortunate to be able to find mentors and elders that would give me love and guidance. But unfortunately, I haven’t really participated a lot in the queer community or queer activism due to the predominantly white nature of these spaces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> Do you have any advice, or what other advice do you have for trans and gender expansive people of my generation about resilience, about getting through these tough times, about being smarter, right? What sort of tidbits of wisdom do you give in this regard?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>The basic thing I would say is, first and foremost, love yourself. Love yourself. And I promise you, people will love you. Know that you have a right. You’re not asking for something, ‘maybe someday people will let me do this or let me do that or let me be this.’ No. You’re a human being and you deserve it all. I’ve had a cab driver told me, a transgender woman told me I don’t expect to live over 35. I said, I said, you know, I’m in my seventies. I’m not, they don’t just let me live. I’m thriving. I am loved. I get to do the mightiest things in life. And that’s because, and I would say, don’t be a victim. And I compare it to the animal kingdom. Like, I’m sorry to say that, but that’s the way it is. They look for the weakest one. And they say, let’s gnaw on this one. So I’m not a victim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I would say to my younger transgender community, don’t identify as a victim. Identify as a warrior, a fighter. And also, I would say, bring other people with you. Don’t do anything alone. You’re gonna be stronger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So find community and do things not for you. You know that sounds strong, but like really and truly. I don’t do anything. I don’t think I do anything for myself. I have it all, but I’m doing it for you. And I think that that’s lovely. I think it’s lovely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Sometimes it’s very easy to fall into the disappointment to only focus on the negativity and so it is really important to find your community, to find resilience, to find hope. And speaking of hope, do you feel more or less hopeful about the future of trans and gender expansive people now than before, especially considering our current administration?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I want to ask you the same question. How do you feel about that for yourself in 2025?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>You, for me, are one of the giants of the movement, the human rights movement focusing on queer transgender individuals. And so it is really important to acknowledge and validate all of the work that our elders have done for us. There are definitely still things that we need to work on to improve together, right? Mobilize to unify, and you know to continue to protest and to fight for these rights that everybody deserves. Everybody deserves dignity and respect, regardless of how they choose to identify themselves, because we’re human.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I do feel hopeful. The play actually gave me a sort of boost of radical optimism. It’s important, you know, to continue to fight because there are other Rustys out there, you know, trying to figure out how to navigate the world being who they are. And so I do feel hopeful, and I feel that things can still continue to change for the better at the same time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna:\u003c/b> Harvey Milk, you know, was famous for saying, “You gotta give them hope.” Hope is essential, and you know, I, neither I nor you, I can’t see tomorrow, I can see next week. But I can fill it with, and I got to get up in the morning and go do something. We need it now more than ever. That’s how I feel. Because I would say something that’s different today than 50 years ago. I heard this somewhere, like the shy, I think they called it the shy Republican. Like, people weren’t telling me what they were thinking of me. Well, now they’re not shy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>And you know, that’s good and bad. I know my enemy, whereas I didn’t before. Right, so I take hope and this knowledge and like, yes, I need to know where I stand with you. But I, you know, on a very personal level, I am very terrified for myself. Because it’s out there. In a way, nothing has changed. We’ve come back, and I’ll say this, that man that just got killed, Charlie Kirk, I saw on the news the first moments after it happened. A news reporter talked to a student, a white young, white woman with bleached, blonde hair. And she said, oh, he was talking about how transgender people are the most violent, among the most violent people and do the most crimes in this country. What? You know, like I would have said, “Give me the names. Name some of these transgender people that are the most violent.” Me, Donna Personna, I’ve never slapped anyone in my life. I never have. Anyway, that, like, wow, and we have to push against that. So I’m hopeful, but I’m frightened out of my mind, and I have to keep going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, I’d like to give you a really heartfelt thank you for speaking with me, for sharing your knowledge and your wisdom with me for continuing to be a fearless advocate for our community and I feel very empowered by you. I feel very hopeful. I feel very optimistic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>You’re welcome for that, Q, and I want to say, encouraged by you just being here. You know, I’ve done a lot. I’ve had many, many adventures where I was nervous, scared, and thinking, am I gonna come through? And to see you here right now, I understand that you are out of your comfort zone and you’re willing to go there for the greater good. And I’m also recognized that I’m going to get tired at some point. I only want to live to be 105 or something. I look at you and I think, I can see that they are going to be doing this for the next 50, 60 years. And that really encourages me, makes me feel good. And I appreciate that, and I want to thank you for that right now. You’re very intelligent, or I don’t need to say that, but I like your intelligence and you know what’s what and how to reach out to other people and have them hear you. So I’m grateful for that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And thank you so much, that really means so much to me, Donna.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Did that feel good?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Yes. Yes. How does it feel to you? I was going to cry at some point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I feel, you know, like we’re friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>No, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I feel like we are friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Celebrated transgender elder Donna Personna, in conversation with Quetzali, a youth activist from Sacramento. \u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And thats it for TCR Mag for this week. This interview was produced by me, Sasha Khokha, Srishti Prabha and Suzie Racho with help this week from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\">Gender Reveal podcast,\u003c/a> for his help on this episode. And to KQED’s Robert Chehoski, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if you didn’t catch our series on trans and nonbinary youth and people who love them, check out our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">Love You for You\u003c/a> series in our podcast feed. The California Report Magazine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Your State, Your Stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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