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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anthrocon, the largest gathering of furries in the world, just celebrated its 20th anniversary in July — so we’re re-airing one of our favorite episodes yet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Furries are a community often known for wearing full-body animal suits at conventions, but the characters they inhabit, called “fursonas,” are much more than costumes. They’re deeply personal expressions of identity and creativity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So when someone in the furry fandom dies, how does the community say goodbye? In some cases, they take to VR. Since 2020, a furry named Changa Husky has been running the \u003ca href=\"https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_8b9be9e0-f4f3-4f3e-b671-0a0714fa262a\">Furry Family Ofrenda\u003c/a>, a virtual memorial space inspired by the Mexican holiday Día de los Muertos. It’s a place where furries gather to remember and celebrate the people — and fursonas — who have passed. In this episode, Morgan steps into that virtual world to explore what it means for a community to grieve both a person and the character they brought to life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC1428041683\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/changa.gay\">Changa Husky\u003c/a>, furry Vtuber and video producer\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://dogpatch.press/author/patchofurr/\">Patch O’Furr\u003c/a>, founder and writer, \u003cem>Dogpatch Press\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://thespinoff.co.nz/internet/11-01-2022/who-runs-the-internet-furries\">Who runs the internet? Furries\u003c/a> — Dylan Reeve, \u003cem>The Spinoff \u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://dogpatch.press/2024/02/22/remembering-mark-merlino/\">Remembering Mark Merlino (1952-2024), a founder and soul of furry fandom \u003c/a>— Patch O’Furr, \u003cem>Dogpatch Press \u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv0QaTW3kEY\">The Fandom: A Furry Documentary\u003c/a> — Ash Coyote, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqOFuRic3KU\">Never Ending Song – Doggo Edition \u003c/a>— Changa Husky, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_8b9be9e0-f4f3-4f3e-b671-0a0714fa262a\">Visit the Furry Family Ofrenda\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! Look, we don’t have a clipping army or bot farms to astroturf virality, so it would be a huge help to get the word out. All I’m saying is, we would not be opposed if you want to start a Close All Tabs stan account. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Earlier this month, the US was ablaze with fireworks for our country’s 250th anniversary. But in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the weekend of the Fourth of July is a big deal every year. That’s when the furries take over. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Every July, crowds of anthropomorphic animals descend upon downtown Pittsburgh — a huge boost to the local economy. You might see a cluster of attendees at the local cafe, dressed in regular clothes — but holding their lattes between gloves that look like furry paws. You’ll probably catch a few milling about the city in fuzzy fox ears and clip on tails. But at the convention center itself, out of the blazing summer heat, is another world of fantastical, otherworldly beasts. That’s where you’ll find the crowds in full fursuits, covered head to toe so they don’t look human and all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Anthrocon, the world’s largest get together for furries. This year, the convention drew over 20,000 attendees for workshops, artist markets, charity events, meet and greets, and of course, the big fursuit parade. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just over a year ago, just in time for Anthrocon, we aired a very special episode about furry funerals — what it means to grieve a version of someone that the rest of the world might not see. And how furries, being incredibly tech adept, have used virtual reality to memorialize their loved ones. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Among the Close All Tabs team, this is one of our favorite episodes of the show — and genuinely, maybe one of my favorite stories that I’ve ever worked on in my entire journalistic career. So in honor of Anthrocon’s big 20th anniversary this year, we’re re-airing this very special episode. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if you’re like, wait, what the hell are furries? What does any of this have to do with your whole thing of “how the digital world shapes our real lives?” Well … stick around. This is \u003cem>How the Furry Fandom Says Goodbye. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m standing under a black sky with cobalt blue clouds. In front of me looms an Aztec pyramid. There are trees in the distance with puffs of fuchsia and chartreuse leaves. And there’s a massive tree growing in the center of the pyramid too. The steps leading to the top are lined with candles, as well as an array of offerings like food and sugar skulls. Strung throughout the space are vibrant paper flags featuring intricate designs of cartoon animals. A variety of creatures appear and then disappear around me. Foxes, dragons, and beings that look like more ethereal versions of Sonic the Hedgehog. And my guide to this mystical place?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I’m Changa Husky. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa is an anthropomorphic, animated husky dog. He has gray fur that’s lighter around his muzzle and a tuft of black hair on top of his head. His eyes are icy blue behind gold-rimmed glasses and his brown ears move as his facial expressions change. He and I are together in this virtual world, but I’m talking to him through the screen of my laptop. And yes, there is a real person under his virtual costume. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I am a furry of an older variety. I’ve been in the fandom for decades since at least the early to mid-90s, and I’m here to talk about, well, this world I built in virtual reality. We call this the Furry Family Ofrenda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This VR world is inspired by the Day of the Dead, the Mexican holiday dedicated to honoring the lives of those who have passed away. Families welcome back spirits of their loved ones with altars called “ofrendas,” adorned with photos, candles, flowers, and offerings of the departed’s favorite foods. This isn’t a holiday for mourning, but for celebrating. Changa shows me how this virtual world is dotted with altars, each one with a framed photo, candles and a plaque. They’re all dedicated to the fursonas of people who have passed away. Fursona is a portmanteau of fur and persona, essentially an alter ego. And just a note, in this episode, we’ll be referring to a few people, including Changa, by their “fursona” names. Furries are often the targets of harassment and bullying, so many of them are publicly known only by their pseudonyms to maintain their safety and privacy. Beyond that, fursonas are kind of like a drag persona. It’s how a lot of furries express themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> A lot of drag personas are just that person exploring their identity. To be able to put on a mask and amplify your personality. It ends up being a way of exploring your identity and yourself. And not in those cliches of, “oh, I identify as blah, blah, blah.” It’s like, no, I know I’m human. But there are ways you can explore who you are and how you interact with the world and friends, through the lens of um like an anthropomorphic creature. It’s very much a medium. It’s like a medium of expression. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa stops at one particular altar with a framed photo of an older man, a human person, to be clear. He’s got glasses and he’s smiling from under his gray mustache. And he’s wearing a baseball cap with two fluffy auburn ears sticking out of it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> His fursona was a mustelid, a pine martin, a kind of tree weasel, and he was, well, very much the weasel persona. They have to be a little fearless, you know, tiny little carnivore. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This pine martin was named Sy Sable, also known as Mark Merlino. He passed away a year ago, and he was Changa’s life partner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> This project was his idea. So it was beautiful but painful that I had to add him in here. I was with him for close to 30 years before he passed. I mean, many marriages do not last that long. And here we are a polycule. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark Merlino and Mark’s other partner, Rodney O’Reilly, are known as the grandfathers of the furry fandom. Their house, where Changa also lives, has been a home base for the fandom for decades. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney, the founders of the first furry convention, were a bisexual couple, openly. And they started the convention in 1989, which was not the greatest time period to be very openly queer. Let’s be real, much less running a convention. And that became a safe space for a lot of people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Now outsiders might only know the subculture as a weird kink for dressing up as animals. And because of that stigma, a lot of furries aren’t open about being furries to people outside of the fandom. And that means grieving, for furries, might look a little different. Even if someone wasn’t open about being a furry to the rest of the world, the furry community remembers that person’s fursona as much as their real-life presence. And then there’s the fandom’s technical aptitude. There’s a long running joke online that if a plane full of furries goes down, then Silicon Valley will crumble because furries built the modern IT industry. The furry fandom evolved with the internet and since the 80s, furries have always been pioneers of emerging tech. They’ve incorporated it into their costuming and conventions and even memorials. So what does a furry funeral look like? What does it mean to memorialize an aspect of someone’s life that may not have been part of their bodily form, but was still a part of the identity? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We’ll come back to Changa and the Furry Family Ofrenda. But first, we need to understand this fandom. You know how this goes: we open a new tab. What does it mean to be a furry? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Look, I may be chronically online, but I’m still an outsider when it comes to this fandom. So to explain furries, I reached out to someone who’s actually part of the community. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> I’m Patch. I go by Patch O’Furr online. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Patch runs the furry news site, Dogpatch Press. The site covers furry conventions, the furry economy, and has even investigated furry crimes. But before all that, Patch was brand new to San Francisco and exploring the city’s nightlife. Back in 2012, he stumbled across a furry party at a gay bar within walking distance of his apartment. Out of curiosity, he stopped by. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> So I showed up and um you know I’m walking down a dark street and here’s this club in front of me with you know some muffled beats and some light coming in through the cracks and uh I walk up to the door and there’s like this beckoning werewolf paw pulling me in. And I walked into this just magical experience. It was being transported to another dimension. I went over towards the dance floor. This was a famous dive bar with like a little postage stamp of a dance floor and I was kind of lurking on the edge and then I saw this amazing sight. There was this six foot cartoon otter who came out from behind a curtain and it just gave me this urge to ask him to dance. And, you know, this is a cartoon character and it’s very loud. So we’re using kind of body language and he just pulls me in and we’re dancing. And I’m just sort of like, wow, this is a cartoon character, but I can actually hug him. And right there I decided I have to be one of these characters. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The otter that Patch met was wearing a “fur suit.” Picture something like a mascot at a theme park. Some people build their own fur suits, which is pretty labor intensive and requires a lot of technical sewing skills. Others commission their fur suits from artists, but that can cost upwards of a couple thousand dollars. Patch ended up finding his fur suit on an auction site. There was one dog suit, a husky to be specific, that jumped out at him. He won the bid, and it arrived just in time for a local furry convention. Patch decided to debut the character that weekend. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> And there at the hotel when I put it on, it was a very strange feeling for the first 30 minutes. You’re completely immersed. There’s no skin, your senses are sort of muffled, you have tunnel vision. But then, you start to feel this connection with the people who are around you. They’re seeing you as somebody who’s different and kind of magical, and it’s a very addictive feeling. You know, it’s getting out of yourself, but it’s also making a new version of yourself. You can kind of be reborn with this one life that you’re given. And it’s really special to be able to do that and be validated by everybody else who’s doing that. There’s a strong overlap between queer communities and furry communities. And it’s not necessarily that furry is an identity itself. The more accurate definition is um we’re talking about expressing identity. So furry is queer as, you know, so is musical theater or disco or other things that are attached to the queer community, you now, drag. Drag is not always practiced by queer people, but it’s very strongly allied. So the same is true with furries. So they are adopting a fursona so they can be themselves more. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa, the husky we talked to earlier, pointed out that there are also a lot of neurodivergent people who gravitate toward the furry fandom. Putting on a fursona can be like masking. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I mean, people like in this community can have a lot of social anxiety. Um, I mean we are a very neurodiverse, uh, community. We’re very queer, we’re very neurodiverse. And so this community, people will like put on these masks to like actually tell more truth about themselves. Cause I mean let’s be real, real, everybody out there in the real world is always wearing a mask. You’ve got your work persona. You have who you are at the grocery store or at church or what have you, um, you know even to family members and being able to put on say, I don’t know, a doggy persona and just explore that way and be seen that way is a way of interacting with friends and family, um or even just yourself in ways that are actually kind of therapeutic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So for a lot of furries, the fandom has provided a space to be queer and neurodivergent without judgment. Changa actually found the fandom after watching Lion King. Yes, that’s the 1994 Disney animated movie, Lion King. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> There’s always um like a piece of media that was the inflection point for a lot of furries. Classically, it was Disney’s Robin Hood, you know, something about those foxes. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But it was Lion King for you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Lion King. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This was the early 90s at the peak of the AIDS epidemic. It was dangerous to be openly gay, especially in Kansas, where Changa lived at the time. He found solace online in animation role-playing discussion boards. And that’s where he met Mark, who was also obsessed with Disney animation. They hit it off and started talking on the phone. After visiting Mark in California once, Changa decided to move. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> And this is how I knew Mark was a keeper. He dropped everything, drove to Kansas and helped me move cross country. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney had an extra room, so Changa ended up moving in and, over time, joined this queer furry polycule. Their house, which is known as the Prancing Skilltaire, is a base for a lot of the fandom. Since the 80s, the Prancing Skilltaire has hosted monthly furry parties, furry convention staff meetings, and other furry get-togethers. They’ve also taken in young queer people who were kicked out of their homes, and once even hosted an impromptu wedding. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>They’re over there doing their vows. And I just leaned over to Rodney going, “wait, wait. Are they trans? They’re trans.” And it’s like, “yeah, yeah.” It’s, like, “did we just have a trans wedding in our backyard?” He’s like, “yeah.” Like, huh, okay, cool. Um and that was like, oh God, that was more than a decade ago. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Prancing Skilltaire is just one hub for the furry community. The fandom has evolved into a widespread, thriving subculture, and as furries have passed on over the decades, the community has come up with unique ways to honor them. Some choose to pass their costume on to a loved one after they die, and let the character they embodied live a second life. Patch said that this also celebrates the artist who made the fursuit. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> Another way people can be remembered is they can just have their costume displayed. I know that there are people who have their costumes placed on like a dummy and it’s kept in a certain place in their house. So you can go and say hi to the person again and just have that experience of them having a presence, a physical presence still. There’s also ways that people set up having their costume worn by friends at special occasions, maybe once a year, just so they’re present again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That idea of coming back to visit the living really stuck with Mark Merlino, too. He had seen a lot of his peers in the fandom age and pass away, and wanted to honor their memory somehow. Changa said that Mark was obsessed with the Disney Pixar movie Coco, which is about spirits returning home on the day of the dead. In 2018, Mark built an ofrenda display at PAWCon, a furry convention that happened to take place during the holiday. It was just a small room at the event with a single decorated table, but people loved it. They left notes and offerings and photos. So the next year, Mark built another one. He wanted to make it an annual tradition. But then in 2020, the pandemic shut down conventions. It shut down everything else too. Life moved to the internet and so did grieving. That’s a new tab, but first a quick break. Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab. And for this one, we’re jumping back into VR. The Furry Family Ofrenda. You made it in one piece? We’re back in VR chat, in this world that Changa and Mark built with the Aztec pyramid, candles, and altars. Right now, Changa is showing me how users can leave offerings. He’s placing a virtual meatball sub on Mark’s ofronda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did he like meatball subs? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Uh, yeah, actually he did. Um, we only have so much limited space. Um, I mean, all of this has to be downloaded and rendered on people’s, um, video cards. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I know Mark had built that small a friend at this real life in person convention. But can you tell me about this move to VR? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>At the time, of course, we’re all locked in in 2020. And this platform, VRChat, had existed already. And then I saw on Twitter at the time people posting pictures from this virtual convention, Furality. And when I went in there it was like, “this is the vibe of a real convention.” This was the real community that I knew. And there was something amazing about slipping on an avatar like this and actually seeing yourself the way you would internally think about yourself. Well, it’s like fursuiting only, well, I won’t say cheaper, good lord, the amount of computer upgrades and technology just keep up in here. But it’s, like, wearing a fursuit without suffocating. Hell, I had my midlife crisis and went canine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s when Mark had an idea. Instead of building a single physical ofrenda, why not build a VR world where each furry could have their own? He didn’t have the technical skills to make it happen, but Changa did. So, Changa started digging through a site called WikiFur, which is like Wikipedia for furries. He started adding ofrendas for each furry listed as deceased on WikiFur. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And it just kind of blew up from there. Now it’s just more of a matter of trying to keep up as people pass. Which is, oh god, well I would really hope people would kind of stop doing that. That would be, that would be great. It’s not as bad as it was in 2020. 2020 was traumatic. You’re really changing when you’re sitting there counting the dead within your own community. And this actually gave a lot of people a space to kind of mourn, given that we weren’t able to really, like, be together in person. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The original Furry Family Ofrenda was pretty basic. Changa had to work with pre-made assets and none of them were made for the Day of the Dead. It definitely wasn’t culturally accurate. In 2021, the Furry Family Ofrenda got a makeover with the help of a Mexican furry convention called Confuror. The event is based in Guadalajara, Mexico, but during the pandemic lockdown, it was entirely on VRChat, and they wanted to host part of it in the Furry Family Ofrenda. The event organizers hired Mexican artists to design new 3D assets for the space so that it could look more like a real Day of the Dead festival. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m not from the culture that this celebration came comes from, but they helped immensely. I’m glad it’s the kind of culture that that was shareable, you know, it’s because it’s a beautiful way of dealing with mourning. Because I mean a lot of mourning is like sitting around crying and I know Mark preferred the idea of like joyfully talking about people that passed and remembering them, you know bring out the food celebrate, talk, and all that. And it was really wonderful to be able to bring a piece of that into a virtual space. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In the five years since Changa built it, the Furry Family Ofrenda has memorialized countless furries. Some of the altars feature photos of people’s real faces, but many of them honor their fursona too, which may not be acknowledged in any real-life memorials. You don’t need a whole VR setup. You can access it from any computer or mobile app. That’s why it’s become an important gathering spot for the community. That connection to the larger community became really important to the Prancing Skilltaire household during the pandemic lockdowns. And then again, when Mark got sick. Let’s talk about that in a new tab. Remembering Sy Sable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>When he went sick, I mean, both me and Rodney were like breaking. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark had a stroke in December 2023, but was stable enough to come home in time for Christmas. Then he got sicker during that holiday week. After seven hospitals, an ICU stay, and a stint in a rehab center, Mark was diagnosed with stage four terminal liver cancer. That news shook the furry community. Once word got out, furries put together a GoFundMe to cover his medical bills. People who had attended Prancing Skilltaire parties or crashed on their sofa when they were kicked out for being gay, showed up to help with Mark’s hospice care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>So there was a lot of outpouring of love. And I mean, when you have, you know, young, like early 20-year-old kid showing up at your door with a covered dish while, you know, your partner’s hospicing, it says a lot. That is community. That is, you know, the found family. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And those who couldn’t help out in person kept him company in VR. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were bringing in, you know, had a tablet for Mark, where he could talk over Discord with various friends that he’d gotten to know on VR. And so he was able, from his deathbed, to, you now, have conversations with various friends that we were scheduling. He could, essentially on a tablet, get to talk with people who are still presenting themselves with avatars and the way they saw themselves and the way he saw them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark passed away in his home at the Prancing Skilltaire last February. Changa and Rodney knew that Mark didn’t want a traditional somber funeral. Remember that bit about furries building the tech industry as we know it? Changa and Rodney incorporated that into Mark’s funeral too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were both kind of agreement that it should be a big blow-out party. We would celebrate him and so we rented out a hall and given the virtual reality community that both he and I were involved in and close to the staff, the convention Furality decided to help us with some resources and they built a VR portal so that people could show up and give their respects virtually. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Furality is the virtual reality convention that initially got Mark and Changa into using VRChat. A VR portal is a massive screen that acts as a window between the real world and VR for people who can’t make it to events in person. Usually conventions, but in this case, a funeral. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>They rented out the equipment and we had to scout out how good the internet was because our requirements, just a little off the beaten path of normally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So the physical funeral was beamed into a virtual room that Furality had built for the event. Meanwhile, that virtual room was beamed into the funeral. People took turns speaking about Mark. They either spoke from the real life podium or from a huge screen that displayed the VR portal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We did have also several hundred people actually at the event, and there was that level of chaos that um, technical chaos that just keeps me focused. Like, “okay, we need to string cable.” Really what it came down to is it really felt like every other community social convention sort of situation that we’d been trained for, that like we essentially took all the stuff we would have done setting up at a hotel for a convention, just really concentrated in a hurry, in a hall. We had drawing pads where people were sketching, little tribute sort of things. I brought in a little portable TV from the 80s, and it was playing media that was related to Sy, some of his stuff he’d shot. So there’s like all this mix of kind of like technology, retro technology, art, and of course junk food. We actually had fursuiters. People got into fursuit too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, it doesn’t sound like any funeral I’ve ever seen or been to. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Oh, that’s probably the case. Yeah, it was like a mini party convention. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, aside from huge technical feat, which is very cool, it also sounds like it was a real community event. What was it like to add him to the ofrenda? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>That was painful, that was by myself. I did not grieve at the memorial, I was just too busy, I kept myself distracted. But adding him to the ofrenda was just, oh, oh, that’s was a painful upload. I never prepared for that, but it was kind of fitting that he would end up getting put into the thing that he, well he spurned on. It was like the project that he put on to me, and now I have to keep that torch going for him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa actually hasn’t visited Mark’s altar much since uploading it. He says he’s been avoiding it. This interview, where he showed me around, was one of the first times he’s back. Like his funeral itself, many of the memorials and tributes honoring Mark are really for the greater furry community to pay their respects. Changa said he struggles to grieve at these community spaces. Like last year, Furality wanted to honor Mark during the convention’s closing ceremony. So they asked Changa for a photo of Mark’s VR avatar. Since there weren’t any good ones available, Changa had to put on Mark’s fursona in VR. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I had to get into his avatar with a photographer and kind of do a shoot. And that was painful. You know, it’s like, I really wanted to get that over with. Yeah, well, yeah, get slipping into your dead partner’s body, essentially. But it was a beautiful tribute when they actually did it. It was lovely. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Instead of these public tributes, Changa has his own way of honoring Mark’s memory. And of course, it involves virtual reality. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m a good video editor and I was doing a whole bunch of very nostalgic stuff with modern music, you know, where I’m like putting people in original like movie footage — doing that scene from Risky Business, you now where they slide in, except it’s a werewolf. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa and his friends record the footage using tracking rigs. They dance and lip sync to the music, and then Changa composites their fursonas over movie scenes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And the first one I worked on was from The Birdcage. It’s that iconic scene on the park bench with the boat going by the harbor. And that was the moment where Robin Williams and Nathan Lane’s characters are sitting down and it’s kind of the, you know, “I’m 50 whatever and you’re my family. You’re the only person I wanna spend the rest of my life with.” It is iconic queer media. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin Williams: \u003c/strong>What does it matter? Take it all. I’m 50 years old. There’s only one place in the world I call home, and it’s because you’re there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The birdcage scene in Changa’s music video is just a few seconds long. It has Changa as big, gray, husky fursona sitting on the bench, dressed in red pinstripe pants and rose-tinted glasses. It’s just like the outfit Nathan Lane wore in the movie. Changa lip syncs a line from the song, and then the music video shifts to another movie. But before the scene flashes by, you might catch a glimpse of Mark’s fursana, the mustelid called Sy Sable perched on the bench next to Changa. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I just hope he could see it wherever he is. I don’t think they have YouTube. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like we said at the top, this episode first aired a year ago. We recently caught up with Changa over email. He said he’s actually planning a rebuild of the Furry Family Ofrenda, with the help of a larger development team (of fellow furries, of course) and better technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His hope is that it’ll be easier to find individual altars in this revamped world, and implement a better system for submitting information for each memorial. Basically, streamlining the whole process so this world is easier to manage, and is more accessible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although he spends a lot of time maintaining the Furry Family Ofrenda, Changa hadn’t been to Mark’s altar much since his passing — except for our interview last year. But a few months later, on Dia de los Muertos, Changa finally sat down at Mark’s memorial, and took in the world they built together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Over email, he said: “Dealing with loss can really be such a slow burn.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll be back next week with another deep dive. For now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Jen Chien, who is our Director of Podcasts. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. If you like these deep dives and want to support public media, become a member at donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Furries are a community often known for wearing full-body animal suits at conventions, but the characters they inhabit, called “fursonas,” are much more than costumes. They’re deeply personal expressions of identity and creativity.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So when someone in the furry fandom dies, how does the community say goodbye? In some cases, they take to VR. Since 2020, a furry named Changa Husky has been running the \u003ca href=\"https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_8b9be9e0-f4f3-4f3e-b671-0a0714fa262a\">Furry Family Ofrenda\u003c/a>, a virtual memorial space inspired by the Mexican holiday Día de los Muertos. It’s a place where furries gather to remember and celebrate the people — and fursonas — who have passed. In this episode, Morgan steps into that virtual world to explore what it means for a community to grieve both a person and the character they brought to life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So when someone in the furry fandom dies, how does the community say goodbye? In some cases, they take to VR. Since 2020, a furry named Changa Husky has been running the \u003ca href=\"https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_8b9be9e0-f4f3-4f3e-b671-0a0714fa262a\">Furry Family Ofrenda\u003c/a>, a virtual memorial space inspired by the Mexican holiday Día de los Muertos. It’s a place where furries gather to remember and celebrate the people — and fursonas — who have passed. In this episode, Morgan steps into that virtual world to explore what it means for a community to grieve both a person and the character they brought to life.\u003c/p>\n"
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"Who runs the internet? Furries — Dylan Reeve, The Spinoff ",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! Look, we don’t have a clipping army or bot farms to astroturf virality, so it would be a huge help to get the word out. All I’m saying is, we would not be opposed if you want to start a Close All Tabs stan account. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! Look, we don’t have a clipping army or bot farms to astroturf virality, so it would be a huge help to get the word out. All I’m saying is, we would not be opposed if you want to start a Close All Tabs stan account. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Earlier this month, the US was ablaze with fireworks for our country’s 250th anniversary. But in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the weekend of the Fourth of July is a big deal every year. That’s when the furries take over. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Earlier this month, the US was ablaze with fireworks for our country’s 250th anniversary. But in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the weekend of the Fourth of July is a big deal every year. That’s when the furries take over. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Every July, crowds of anthropomorphic animals descend upon downtown Pittsburgh — a huge boost to the local economy. You might see a cluster of attendees at the local cafe, dressed in regular clothes — but holding their lattes between gloves that look like furry paws. You’ll probably catch a few milling about the city in fuzzy fox ears and clip on tails. But at the convention center itself, out of the blazing summer heat, is another world of fantastical, otherworldly beasts. That’s where you’ll find the crowds in full fursuits, covered head to toe so they don’t look human and all. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Every July, crowds of anthropomorphic animals descend upon downtown Pittsburgh — a huge boost to the local economy. You might see a cluster of attendees at the local cafe, dressed in regular clothes — but holding their lattes between gloves that look like furry paws. You’ll probably catch a few milling about the city in fuzzy fox ears and clip on tails. But at the convention center itself, out of the blazing summer heat, is another world of fantastical, otherworldly beasts. That’s where you’ll find the crowds in full fursuits, covered head to toe so they don’t look human and all. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Anthrocon, the world’s largest get together for furries. This year, the convention drew over 20,000 attendees for workshops, artist markets, charity events, meet and greets, and of course, the big fursuit parade. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is Anthrocon, the world’s largest get together for furries. This year, the convention drew over 20,000 attendees for workshops, artist markets, charity events, meet and greets, and of course, the big fursuit parade. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Just over a year ago, just in time for Anthrocon, we aired a very special episode about furry funerals — what it means to grieve a version of someone that the rest of the world might not see. And how furries, being incredibly tech adept, have used virtual reality to memorialize their loved ones. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Just over a year ago, just in time for Anthrocon, we aired a very special episode about furry funerals — what it means to grieve a version of someone that the rest of the world might not see. And how furries, being incredibly tech adept, have used virtual reality to memorialize their loved ones. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Among the Close All Tabs team, this is one of our favorite episodes of the show — and genuinely, maybe one of my favorite stories that I’ve ever worked on in my entire journalistic career. So in honor of Anthrocon’s big 20th anniversary this year, we’re re-airing this very special episode. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Among the Close All Tabs team, this is one of our favorite episodes of the show — and genuinely, maybe one of my favorite stories that I’ve ever worked on in my entire journalistic career. So in honor of Anthrocon’s big 20th anniversary this year, we’re re-airing this very special episode. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And if you’re like, wait, what the hell are furries? What does any of this have to do with your whole thing of “how the digital world shapes our real lives?” Well … stick around. This is \u003cem>How the Furry Fandom Says Goodbye. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And if you’re like, wait, what the hell are furries? What does any of this have to do with your whole thing of “how the digital world shapes our real lives?” Well … stick around. This is \u003cem>How the Furry Fandom Says Goodbye. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m standing under a black sky with cobalt blue clouds. In front of me looms an Aztec pyramid. There are trees in the distance with puffs of fuchsia and chartreuse leaves. And there’s a massive tree growing in the center of the pyramid too. The steps leading to the top are lined with candles, as well as an array of offerings like food and sugar skulls. Strung throughout the space are vibrant paper flags featuring intricate designs of cartoon animals. A variety of creatures appear and then disappear around me. Foxes, dragons, and beings that look like more ethereal versions of Sonic the Hedgehog. And my guide to this mystical place?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m standing under a black sky with cobalt blue clouds. In front of me looms an Aztec pyramid. There are trees in the distance with puffs of fuchsia and chartreuse leaves. And there’s a massive tree growing in the center of the pyramid too. The steps leading to the top are lined with candles, as well as an array of offerings like food and sugar skulls. Strung throughout the space are vibrant paper flags featuring intricate designs of cartoon animals. A variety of creatures appear and then disappear around me. Foxes, dragons, and beings that look like more ethereal versions of Sonic the Hedgehog. And my guide to this mystical place?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I’m Changa Husky. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I’m Changa Husky. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa is an anthropomorphic, animated husky dog. He has gray fur that’s lighter around his muzzle and a tuft of black hair on top of his head. His eyes are icy blue behind gold-rimmed glasses and his brown ears move as his facial expressions change. He and I are together in this virtual world, but I’m talking to him through the screen of my laptop. And yes, there is a real person under his virtual costume. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa is an anthropomorphic, animated husky dog. He has gray fur that’s lighter around his muzzle and a tuft of black hair on top of his head. His eyes are icy blue behind gold-rimmed glasses and his brown ears move as his facial expressions change. He and I are together in this virtual world, but I’m talking to him through the screen of my laptop. And yes, there is a real person under his virtual costume. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I am a furry of an older variety. I’ve been in the fandom for decades since at least the early to mid-90s, and I’m here to talk about, well, this world I built in virtual reality. We call this the Furry Family Ofrenda. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I am a furry of an older variety. I’ve been in the fandom for decades since at least the early to mid-90s, and I’m here to talk about, well, this world I built in virtual reality. We call this the Furry Family Ofrenda. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This VR world is inspired by the Day of the Dead, the Mexican holiday dedicated to honoring the lives of those who have passed away. Families welcome back spirits of their loved ones with altars called “ofrendas,” adorned with photos, candles, flowers, and offerings of the departed’s favorite foods. This isn’t a holiday for mourning, but for celebrating. Changa shows me how this virtual world is dotted with altars, each one with a framed photo, candles and a plaque. They’re all dedicated to the fursonas of people who have passed away. Fursona is a portmanteau of fur and persona, essentially an alter ego. And just a note, in this episode, we’ll be referring to a few people, including Changa, by their “fursona” names. Furries are often the targets of harassment and bullying, so many of them are publicly known only by their pseudonyms to maintain their safety and privacy. Beyond that, fursonas are kind of like a drag persona. It’s how a lot of furries express themselves. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This VR world is inspired by the Day of the Dead, the Mexican holiday dedicated to honoring the lives of those who have passed away. Families welcome back spirits of their loved ones with altars called “ofrendas,” adorned with photos, candles, flowers, and offerings of the departed’s favorite foods. This isn’t a holiday for mourning, but for celebrating. Changa shows me how this virtual world is dotted with altars, each one with a framed photo, candles and a plaque. They’re all dedicated to the fursonas of people who have passed away. Fursona is a portmanteau of fur and persona, essentially an alter ego. And just a note, in this episode, we’ll be referring to a few people, including Changa, by their “fursona” names. Furries are often the targets of harassment and bullying, so many of them are publicly known only by their pseudonyms to maintain their safety and privacy. Beyond that, fursonas are kind of like a drag persona. It’s how a lot of furries express themselves. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> A lot of drag personas are just that person exploring their identity. To be able to put on a mask and amplify your personality. It ends up being a way of exploring your identity and yourself. And not in those cliches of, “oh, I identify as blah, blah, blah.” It’s like, no, I know I’m human. But there are ways you can explore who you are and how you interact with the world and friends, through the lens of um like an anthropomorphic creature. It’s very much a medium. It’s like a medium of expression. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> A lot of drag personas are just that person exploring their identity. To be able to put on a mask and amplify your personality. It ends up being a way of exploring your identity and yourself. And not in those cliches of, “oh, I identify as blah, blah, blah.” It’s like, no, I know I’m human. But there are ways you can explore who you are and how you interact with the world and friends, through the lens of um like an anthropomorphic creature. It’s very much a medium. It’s like a medium of expression. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa stops at one particular altar with a framed photo of an older man, a human person, to be clear. He’s got glasses and he’s smiling from under his gray mustache. And he’s wearing a baseball cap with two fluffy auburn ears sticking out of it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa stops at one particular altar with a framed photo of an older man, a human person, to be clear. He’s got glasses and he’s smiling from under his gray mustache. And he’s wearing a baseball cap with two fluffy auburn ears sticking out of it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> His fursona was a mustelid, a pine martin, a kind of tree weasel, and he was, well, very much the weasel persona. They have to be a little fearless, you know, tiny little carnivore. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> His fursona was a mustelid, a pine martin, a kind of tree weasel, and he was, well, very much the weasel persona. They have to be a little fearless, you know, tiny little carnivore. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This pine martin was named Sy Sable, also known as Mark Merlino. He passed away a year ago, and he was Changa’s life partner. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This pine martin was named Sy Sable, also known as Mark Merlino. He passed away a year ago, and he was Changa’s life partner. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> This project was his idea. So it was beautiful but painful that I had to add him in here. I was with him for close to 30 years before he passed. I mean, many marriages do not last that long. And here we are a polycule. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> This project was his idea. So it was beautiful but painful that I had to add him in here. I was with him for close to 30 years before he passed. I mean, many marriages do not last that long. And here we are a polycule. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark Merlino and Mark’s other partner, Rodney O’Reilly, are known as the grandfathers of the furry fandom. Their house, where Changa also lives, has been a home base for the fandom for decades. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark Merlino and Mark’s other partner, Rodney O’Reilly, are known as the grandfathers of the furry fandom. Their house, where Changa also lives, has been a home base for the fandom for decades. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney, the founders of the first furry convention, were a bisexual couple, openly. And they started the convention in 1989, which was not the greatest time period to be very openly queer. Let’s be real, much less running a convention. And that became a safe space for a lot of people. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney, the founders of the first furry convention, were a bisexual couple, openly. And they started the convention in 1989, which was not the greatest time period to be very openly queer. Let’s be real, much less running a convention. And that became a safe space for a lot of people. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Now outsiders might only know the subculture as a weird kink for dressing up as animals. And because of that stigma, a lot of furries aren’t open about being furries to people outside of the fandom. And that means grieving, for furries, might look a little different. Even if someone wasn’t open about being a furry to the rest of the world, the furry community remembers that person’s fursona as much as their real-life presence. And then there’s the fandom’s technical aptitude. There’s a long running joke online that if a plane full of furries goes down, then Silicon Valley will crumble because furries built the modern IT industry. The furry fandom evolved with the internet and since the 80s, furries have always been pioneers of emerging tech. They’ve incorporated it into their costuming and conventions and even memorials. So what does a furry funeral look like? What does it mean to memorialize an aspect of someone’s life that may not have been part of their bodily form, but was still a part of the identity? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Now outsiders might only know the subculture as a weird kink for dressing up as animals. And because of that stigma, a lot of furries aren’t open about being furries to people outside of the fandom. And that means grieving, for furries, might look a little different. Even if someone wasn’t open about being a furry to the rest of the world, the furry community remembers that person’s fursona as much as their real-life presence. And then there’s the fandom’s technical aptitude. There’s a long running joke online that if a plane full of furries goes down, then Silicon Valley will crumble because furries built the modern IT industry. The furry fandom evolved with the internet and since the 80s, furries have always been pioneers of emerging tech. They’ve incorporated it into their costuming and conventions and even memorials. So what does a furry funeral look like? What does it mean to memorialize an aspect of someone’s life that may not have been part of their bodily form, but was still a part of the identity? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We’ll come back to Changa and the Furry Family Ofrenda. But first, we need to understand this fandom. You know how this goes: we open a new tab. What does it mean to be a furry? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We’ll come back to Changa and the Furry Family Ofrenda. But first, we need to understand this fandom. You know how this goes: we open a new tab. What does it mean to be a furry? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Look, I may be chronically online, but I’m still an outsider when it comes to this fandom. So to explain furries, I reached out to someone who’s actually part of the community. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Look, I may be chronically online, but I’m still an outsider when it comes to this fandom. So to explain furries, I reached out to someone who’s actually part of the community. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> I’m Patch. I go by Patch O’Furr online. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> I’m Patch. I go by Patch O’Furr online. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Patch runs the furry news site, Dogpatch Press. The site covers furry conventions, the furry economy, and has even investigated furry crimes. But before all that, Patch was brand new to San Francisco and exploring the city’s nightlife. Back in 2012, he stumbled across a furry party at a gay bar within walking distance of his apartment. Out of curiosity, he stopped by. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Patch runs the furry news site, Dogpatch Press. The site covers furry conventions, the furry economy, and has even investigated furry crimes. But before all that, Patch was brand new to San Francisco and exploring the city’s nightlife. Back in 2012, he stumbled across a furry party at a gay bar within walking distance of his apartment. Out of curiosity, he stopped by. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> So I showed up and um you know I’m walking down a dark street and here’s this club in front of me with you know some muffled beats and some light coming in through the cracks and uh I walk up to the door and there’s like this beckoning werewolf paw pulling me in. And I walked into this just magical experience. It was being transported to another dimension. I went over towards the dance floor. This was a famous dive bar with like a little postage stamp of a dance floor and I was kind of lurking on the edge and then I saw this amazing sight. There was this six foot cartoon otter who came out from behind a curtain and it just gave me this urge to ask him to dance. And, you know, this is a cartoon character and it’s very loud. So we’re using kind of body language and he just pulls me in and we’re dancing. And I’m just sort of like, wow, this is a cartoon character, but I can actually hug him. And right there I decided I have to be one of these characters. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> So I showed up and um you know I’m walking down a dark street and here’s this club in front of me with you know some muffled beats and some light coming in through the cracks and uh I walk up to the door and there’s like this beckoning werewolf paw pulling me in. And I walked into this just magical experience. It was being transported to another dimension. I went over towards the dance floor. This was a famous dive bar with like a little postage stamp of a dance floor and I was kind of lurking on the edge and then I saw this amazing sight. There was this six foot cartoon otter who came out from behind a curtain and it just gave me this urge to ask him to dance. And, you know, this is a cartoon character and it’s very loud. So we’re using kind of body language and he just pulls me in and we’re dancing. And I’m just sort of like, wow, this is a cartoon character, but I can actually hug him. And right there I decided I have to be one of these characters. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The otter that Patch met was wearing a “fur suit.” Picture something like a mascot at a theme park. Some people build their own fur suits, which is pretty labor intensive and requires a lot of technical sewing skills. Others commission their fur suits from artists, but that can cost upwards of a couple thousand dollars. Patch ended up finding his fur suit on an auction site. There was one dog suit, a husky to be specific, that jumped out at him. He won the bid, and it arrived just in time for a local furry convention. Patch decided to debut the character that weekend. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The otter that Patch met was wearing a “fur suit.” Picture something like a mascot at a theme park. Some people build their own fur suits, which is pretty labor intensive and requires a lot of technical sewing skills. Others commission their fur suits from artists, but that can cost upwards of a couple thousand dollars. Patch ended up finding his fur suit on an auction site. There was one dog suit, a husky to be specific, that jumped out at him. He won the bid, and it arrived just in time for a local furry convention. Patch decided to debut the character that weekend. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> And there at the hotel when I put it on, it was a very strange feeling for the first 30 minutes. You’re completely immersed. There’s no skin, your senses are sort of muffled, you have tunnel vision. But then, you start to feel this connection with the people who are around you. They’re seeing you as somebody who’s different and kind of magical, and it’s a very addictive feeling. You know, it’s getting out of yourself, but it’s also making a new version of yourself. You can kind of be reborn with this one life that you’re given. And it’s really special to be able to do that and be validated by everybody else who’s doing that. There’s a strong overlap between queer communities and furry communities. And it’s not necessarily that furry is an identity itself. The more accurate definition is um we’re talking about expressing identity. So furry is queer as, you know, so is musical theater or disco or other things that are attached to the queer community, you now, drag. Drag is not always practiced by queer people, but it’s very strongly allied. So the same is true with furries. So they are adopting a fursona so they can be themselves more. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> And there at the hotel when I put it on, it was a very strange feeling for the first 30 minutes. You’re completely immersed. There’s no skin, your senses are sort of muffled, you have tunnel vision. But then, you start to feel this connection with the people who are around you. They’re seeing you as somebody who’s different and kind of magical, and it’s a very addictive feeling. You know, it’s getting out of yourself, but it’s also making a new version of yourself. You can kind of be reborn with this one life that you’re given. And it’s really special to be able to do that and be validated by everybody else who’s doing that. There’s a strong overlap between queer communities and furry communities. And it’s not necessarily that furry is an identity itself. The more accurate definition is um we’re talking about expressing identity. So furry is queer as, you know, so is musical theater or disco or other things that are attached to the queer community, you now, drag. Drag is not always practiced by queer people, but it’s very strongly allied. So the same is true with furries. So they are adopting a fursona so they can be themselves more. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa, the husky we talked to earlier, pointed out that there are also a lot of neurodivergent people who gravitate toward the furry fandom. Putting on a fursona can be like masking. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa, the husky we talked to earlier, pointed out that there are also a lot of neurodivergent people who gravitate toward the furry fandom. Putting on a fursona can be like masking. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I mean, people like in this community can have a lot of social anxiety. Um, I mean we are a very neurodiverse, uh, community. We’re very queer, we’re very neurodiverse. And so this community, people will like put on these masks to like actually tell more truth about themselves. Cause I mean let’s be real, real, everybody out there in the real world is always wearing a mask. You’ve got your work persona. You have who you are at the grocery store or at church or what have you, um, you know even to family members and being able to put on say, I don’t know, a doggy persona and just explore that way and be seen that way is a way of interacting with friends and family, um or even just yourself in ways that are actually kind of therapeutic. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I mean, people like in this community can have a lot of social anxiety. Um, I mean we are a very neurodiverse, uh, community. We’re very queer, we’re very neurodiverse. And so this community, people will like put on these masks to like actually tell more truth about themselves. Cause I mean let’s be real, real, everybody out there in the real world is always wearing a mask. You’ve got your work persona. You have who you are at the grocery store or at church or what have you, um, you know even to family members and being able to put on say, I don’t know, a doggy persona and just explore that way and be seen that way is a way of interacting with friends and family, um or even just yourself in ways that are actually kind of therapeutic. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So for a lot of furries, the fandom has provided a space to be queer and neurodivergent without judgment. Changa actually found the fandom after watching Lion King. Yes, that’s the 1994 Disney animated movie, Lion King. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So for a lot of furries, the fandom has provided a space to be queer and neurodivergent without judgment. Changa actually found the fandom after watching Lion King. Yes, that’s the 1994 Disney animated movie, Lion King. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> There’s always um like a piece of media that was the inflection point for a lot of furries. Classically, it was Disney’s Robin Hood, you know, something about those foxes. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> There’s always um like a piece of media that was the inflection point for a lot of furries. Classically, it was Disney’s Robin Hood, you know, something about those foxes. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But it was Lion King for you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But it was Lion King for you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Lion King. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Lion King. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This was the early 90s at the peak of the AIDS epidemic. It was dangerous to be openly gay, especially in Kansas, where Changa lived at the time. He found solace online in animation role-playing discussion boards. And that’s where he met Mark, who was also obsessed with Disney animation. They hit it off and started talking on the phone. After visiting Mark in California once, Changa decided to move. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This was the early 90s at the peak of the AIDS epidemic. It was dangerous to be openly gay, especially in Kansas, where Changa lived at the time. He found solace online in animation role-playing discussion boards. And that’s where he met Mark, who was also obsessed with Disney animation. They hit it off and started talking on the phone. After visiting Mark in California once, Changa decided to move. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> And this is how I knew Mark was a keeper. He dropped everything, drove to Kansas and helped me move cross country. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> And this is how I knew Mark was a keeper. He dropped everything, drove to Kansas and helped me move cross country. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney had an extra room, so Changa ended up moving in and, over time, joined this queer furry polycule. Their house, which is known as the Prancing Skilltaire, is a base for a lot of the fandom. Since the 80s, the Prancing Skilltaire has hosted monthly furry parties, furry convention staff meetings, and other furry get-togethers. They’ve also taken in young queer people who were kicked out of their homes, and once even hosted an impromptu wedding. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney had an extra room, so Changa ended up moving in and, over time, joined this queer furry polycule. Their house, which is known as the Prancing Skilltaire, is a base for a lot of the fandom. Since the 80s, the Prancing Skilltaire has hosted monthly furry parties, furry convention staff meetings, and other furry get-togethers. They’ve also taken in young queer people who were kicked out of their homes, and once even hosted an impromptu wedding. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>They’re over there doing their vows. And I just leaned over to Rodney going, “wait, wait. Are they trans? They’re trans.” And it’s like, “yeah, yeah.” It’s, like, “did we just have a trans wedding in our backyard?” He’s like, “yeah.” Like, huh, okay, cool. Um and that was like, oh God, that was more than a decade ago. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>They’re over there doing their vows. And I just leaned over to Rodney going, “wait, wait. Are they trans? They’re trans.” And it’s like, “yeah, yeah.” It’s, like, “did we just have a trans wedding in our backyard?” He’s like, “yeah.” Like, huh, okay, cool. Um and that was like, oh God, that was more than a decade ago. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Prancing Skilltaire is just one hub for the furry community. The fandom has evolved into a widespread, thriving subculture, and as furries have passed on over the decades, the community has come up with unique ways to honor them. Some choose to pass their costume on to a loved one after they die, and let the character they embodied live a second life. Patch said that this also celebrates the artist who made the fursuit. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Prancing Skilltaire is just one hub for the furry community. The fandom has evolved into a widespread, thriving subculture, and as furries have passed on over the decades, the community has come up with unique ways to honor them. Some choose to pass their costume on to a loved one after they die, and let the character they embodied live a second life. Patch said that this also celebrates the artist who made the fursuit. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> Another way people can be remembered is they can just have their costume displayed. I know that there are people who have their costumes placed on like a dummy and it’s kept in a certain place in their house. So you can go and say hi to the person again and just have that experience of them having a presence, a physical presence still. There’s also ways that people set up having their costume worn by friends at special occasions, maybe once a year, just so they’re present again. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> Another way people can be remembered is they can just have their costume displayed. I know that there are people who have their costumes placed on like a dummy and it’s kept in a certain place in their house. So you can go and say hi to the person again and just have that experience of them having a presence, a physical presence still. There’s also ways that people set up having their costume worn by friends at special occasions, maybe once a year, just so they’re present again. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That idea of coming back to visit the living really stuck with Mark Merlino, too. He had seen a lot of his peers in the fandom age and pass away, and wanted to honor their memory somehow. Changa said that Mark was obsessed with the Disney Pixar movie Coco, which is about spirits returning home on the day of the dead. In 2018, Mark built an ofrenda display at PAWCon, a furry convention that happened to take place during the holiday. It was just a small room at the event with a single decorated table, but people loved it. They left notes and offerings and photos. So the next year, Mark built another one. He wanted to make it an annual tradition. But then in 2020, the pandemic shut down conventions. It shut down everything else too. Life moved to the internet and so did grieving. That’s a new tab, but first a quick break. Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab. And for this one, we’re jumping back into VR. The Furry Family Ofrenda. You made it in one piece? We’re back in VR chat, in this world that Changa and Mark built with the Aztec pyramid, candles, and altars. Right now, Changa is showing me how users can leave offerings. He’s placing a virtual meatball sub on Mark’s ofronda. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That idea of coming back to visit the living really stuck with Mark Merlino, too. He had seen a lot of his peers in the fandom age and pass away, and wanted to honor their memory somehow. Changa said that Mark was obsessed with the Disney Pixar movie Coco, which is about spirits returning home on the day of the dead. In 2018, Mark built an ofrenda display at PAWCon, a furry convention that happened to take place during the holiday. It was just a small room at the event with a single decorated table, but people loved it. They left notes and offerings and photos. So the next year, Mark built another one. He wanted to make it an annual tradition. But then in 2020, the pandemic shut down conventions. It shut down everything else too. Life moved to the internet and so did grieving. That’s a new tab, but first a quick break. Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab. And for this one, we’re jumping back into VR. The Furry Family Ofrenda. You made it in one piece? We’re back in VR chat, in this world that Changa and Mark built with the Aztec pyramid, candles, and altars. Right now, Changa is showing me how users can leave offerings. He’s placing a virtual meatball sub on Mark’s ofronda. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did he like meatball subs? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did he like meatball subs? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Uh, yeah, actually he did. Um, we only have so much limited space. Um, I mean, all of this has to be downloaded and rendered on people’s, um, video cards. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Uh, yeah, actually he did. Um, we only have so much limited space. Um, I mean, all of this has to be downloaded and rendered on people’s, um, video cards. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I know Mark had built that small a friend at this real life in person convention. But can you tell me about this move to VR? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I know Mark had built that small a friend at this real life in person convention. But can you tell me about this move to VR? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>At the time, of course, we’re all locked in in 2020. And this platform, VRChat, had existed already. And then I saw on Twitter at the time people posting pictures from this virtual convention, Furality. And when I went in there it was like, “this is the vibe of a real convention.” This was the real community that I knew. And there was something amazing about slipping on an avatar like this and actually seeing yourself the way you would internally think about yourself. Well, it’s like fursuiting only, well, I won’t say cheaper, good lord, the amount of computer upgrades and technology just keep up in here. But it’s, like, wearing a fursuit without suffocating. Hell, I had my midlife crisis and went canine. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>At the time, of course, we’re all locked in in 2020. And this platform, VRChat, had existed already. And then I saw on Twitter at the time people posting pictures from this virtual convention, Furality. And when I went in there it was like, “this is the vibe of a real convention.” This was the real community that I knew. And there was something amazing about slipping on an avatar like this and actually seeing yourself the way you would internally think about yourself. Well, it’s like fursuiting only, well, I won’t say cheaper, good lord, the amount of computer upgrades and technology just keep up in here. But it’s, like, wearing a fursuit without suffocating. Hell, I had my midlife crisis and went canine. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s when Mark had an idea. Instead of building a single physical ofrenda, why not build a VR world where each furry could have their own? He didn’t have the technical skills to make it happen, but Changa did. So, Changa started digging through a site called WikiFur, which is like Wikipedia for furries. He started adding ofrendas for each furry listed as deceased on WikiFur. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s when Mark had an idea. Instead of building a single physical ofrenda, why not build a VR world where each furry could have their own? He didn’t have the technical skills to make it happen, but Changa did. So, Changa started digging through a site called WikiFur, which is like Wikipedia for furries. He started adding ofrendas for each furry listed as deceased on WikiFur. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And it just kind of blew up from there. Now it’s just more of a matter of trying to keep up as people pass. Which is, oh god, well I would really hope people would kind of stop doing that. That would be, that would be great. It’s not as bad as it was in 2020. 2020 was traumatic. You’re really changing when you’re sitting there counting the dead within your own community. And this actually gave a lot of people a space to kind of mourn, given that we weren’t able to really, like, be together in person. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And it just kind of blew up from there. Now it’s just more of a matter of trying to keep up as people pass. Which is, oh god, well I would really hope people would kind of stop doing that. That would be, that would be great. It’s not as bad as it was in 2020. 2020 was traumatic. You’re really changing when you’re sitting there counting the dead within your own community. And this actually gave a lot of people a space to kind of mourn, given that we weren’t able to really, like, be together in person. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The original Furry Family Ofrenda was pretty basic. Changa had to work with pre-made assets and none of them were made for the Day of the Dead. It definitely wasn’t culturally accurate. In 2021, the Furry Family Ofrenda got a makeover with the help of a Mexican furry convention called Confuror. The event is based in Guadalajara, Mexico, but during the pandemic lockdown, it was entirely on VRChat, and they wanted to host part of it in the Furry Family Ofrenda. The event organizers hired Mexican artists to design new 3D assets for the space so that it could look more like a real Day of the Dead festival. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The original Furry Family Ofrenda was pretty basic. Changa had to work with pre-made assets and none of them were made for the Day of the Dead. It definitely wasn’t culturally accurate. In 2021, the Furry Family Ofrenda got a makeover with the help of a Mexican furry convention called Confuror. The event is based in Guadalajara, Mexico, but during the pandemic lockdown, it was entirely on VRChat, and they wanted to host part of it in the Furry Family Ofrenda. The event organizers hired Mexican artists to design new 3D assets for the space so that it could look more like a real Day of the Dead festival. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m not from the culture that this celebration came comes from, but they helped immensely. I’m glad it’s the kind of culture that that was shareable, you know, it’s because it’s a beautiful way of dealing with mourning. Because I mean a lot of mourning is like sitting around crying and I know Mark preferred the idea of like joyfully talking about people that passed and remembering them, you know bring out the food celebrate, talk, and all that. And it was really wonderful to be able to bring a piece of that into a virtual space. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m not from the culture that this celebration came comes from, but they helped immensely. I’m glad it’s the kind of culture that that was shareable, you know, it’s because it’s a beautiful way of dealing with mourning. Because I mean a lot of mourning is like sitting around crying and I know Mark preferred the idea of like joyfully talking about people that passed and remembering them, you know bring out the food celebrate, talk, and all that. And it was really wonderful to be able to bring a piece of that into a virtual space. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In the five years since Changa built it, the Furry Family Ofrenda has memorialized countless furries. Some of the altars feature photos of people’s real faces, but many of them honor their fursona too, which may not be acknowledged in any real-life memorials. You don’t need a whole VR setup. You can access it from any computer or mobile app. That’s why it’s become an important gathering spot for the community. That connection to the larger community became really important to the Prancing Skilltaire household during the pandemic lockdowns. And then again, when Mark got sick. Let’s talk about that in a new tab. Remembering Sy Sable. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In the five years since Changa built it, the Furry Family Ofrenda has memorialized countless furries. Some of the altars feature photos of people’s real faces, but many of them honor their fursona too, which may not be acknowledged in any real-life memorials. You don’t need a whole VR setup. You can access it from any computer or mobile app. That’s why it’s become an important gathering spot for the community. That connection to the larger community became really important to the Prancing Skilltaire household during the pandemic lockdowns. And then again, when Mark got sick. Let’s talk about that in a new tab. Remembering Sy Sable. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>When he went sick, I mean, both me and Rodney were like breaking. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>When he went sick, I mean, both me and Rodney were like breaking. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark had a stroke in December 2023, but was stable enough to come home in time for Christmas. Then he got sicker during that holiday week. After seven hospitals, an ICU stay, and a stint in a rehab center, Mark was diagnosed with stage four terminal liver cancer. That news shook the furry community. Once word got out, furries put together a GoFundMe to cover his medical bills. People who had attended Prancing Skilltaire parties or crashed on their sofa when they were kicked out for being gay, showed up to help with Mark’s hospice care. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark had a stroke in December 2023, but was stable enough to come home in time for Christmas. Then he got sicker during that holiday week. After seven hospitals, an ICU stay, and a stint in a rehab center, Mark was diagnosed with stage four terminal liver cancer. That news shook the furry community. Once word got out, furries put together a GoFundMe to cover his medical bills. People who had attended Prancing Skilltaire parties or crashed on their sofa when they were kicked out for being gay, showed up to help with Mark’s hospice care. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>So there was a lot of outpouring of love. And I mean, when you have, you know, young, like early 20-year-old kid showing up at your door with a covered dish while, you know, your partner’s hospicing, it says a lot. That is community. That is, you know, the found family. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>So there was a lot of outpouring of love. And I mean, when you have, you know, young, like early 20-year-old kid showing up at your door with a covered dish while, you know, your partner’s hospicing, it says a lot. That is community. That is, you know, the found family. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And those who couldn’t help out in person kept him company in VR. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And those who couldn’t help out in person kept him company in VR. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were bringing in, you know, had a tablet for Mark, where he could talk over Discord with various friends that he’d gotten to know on VR. And so he was able, from his deathbed, to, you now, have conversations with various friends that we were scheduling. He could, essentially on a tablet, get to talk with people who are still presenting themselves with avatars and the way they saw themselves and the way he saw them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were bringing in, you know, had a tablet for Mark, where he could talk over Discord with various friends that he’d gotten to know on VR. And so he was able, from his deathbed, to, you now, have conversations with various friends that we were scheduling. He could, essentially on a tablet, get to talk with people who are still presenting themselves with avatars and the way they saw themselves and the way he saw them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark passed away in his home at the Prancing Skilltaire last February. Changa and Rodney knew that Mark didn’t want a traditional somber funeral. Remember that bit about furries building the tech industry as we know it? Changa and Rodney incorporated that into Mark’s funeral too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark passed away in his home at the Prancing Skilltaire last February. Changa and Rodney knew that Mark didn’t want a traditional somber funeral. Remember that bit about furries building the tech industry as we know it? Changa and Rodney incorporated that into Mark’s funeral too. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were both kind of agreement that it should be a big blow-out party. We would celebrate him and so we rented out a hall and given the virtual reality community that both he and I were involved in and close to the staff, the convention Furality decided to help us with some resources and they built a VR portal so that people could show up and give their respects virtually. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were both kind of agreement that it should be a big blow-out party. We would celebrate him and so we rented out a hall and given the virtual reality community that both he and I were involved in and close to the staff, the convention Furality decided to help us with some resources and they built a VR portal so that people could show up and give their respects virtually. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Furality is the virtual reality convention that initially got Mark and Changa into using VRChat. A VR portal is a massive screen that acts as a window between the real world and VR for people who can’t make it to events in person. Usually conventions, but in this case, a funeral. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Furality is the virtual reality convention that initially got Mark and Changa into using VRChat. A VR portal is a massive screen that acts as a window between the real world and VR for people who can’t make it to events in person. Usually conventions, but in this case, a funeral. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>They rented out the equipment and we had to scout out how good the internet was because our requirements, just a little off the beaten path of normally. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>They rented out the equipment and we had to scout out how good the internet was because our requirements, just a little off the beaten path of normally. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So the physical funeral was beamed into a virtual room that Furality had built for the event. Meanwhile, that virtual room was beamed into the funeral. People took turns speaking about Mark. They either spoke from the real life podium or from a huge screen that displayed the VR portal. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So the physical funeral was beamed into a virtual room that Furality had built for the event. Meanwhile, that virtual room was beamed into the funeral. People took turns speaking about Mark. They either spoke from the real life podium or from a huge screen that displayed the VR portal. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We did have also several hundred people actually at the event, and there was that level of chaos that um, technical chaos that just keeps me focused. Like, “okay, we need to string cable.” Really what it came down to is it really felt like every other community social convention sort of situation that we’d been trained for, that like we essentially took all the stuff we would have done setting up at a hotel for a convention, just really concentrated in a hurry, in a hall. We had drawing pads where people were sketching, little tribute sort of things. I brought in a little portable TV from the 80s, and it was playing media that was related to Sy, some of his stuff he’d shot. So there’s like all this mix of kind of like technology, retro technology, art, and of course junk food. We actually had fursuiters. People got into fursuit too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We did have also several hundred people actually at the event, and there was that level of chaos that um, technical chaos that just keeps me focused. Like, “okay, we need to string cable.” Really what it came down to is it really felt like every other community social convention sort of situation that we’d been trained for, that like we essentially took all the stuff we would have done setting up at a hotel for a convention, just really concentrated in a hurry, in a hall. We had drawing pads where people were sketching, little tribute sort of things. I brought in a little portable TV from the 80s, and it was playing media that was related to Sy, some of his stuff he’d shot. So there’s like all this mix of kind of like technology, retro technology, art, and of course junk food. We actually had fursuiters. People got into fursuit too. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, it doesn’t sound like any funeral I’ve ever seen or been to. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, it doesn’t sound like any funeral I’ve ever seen or been to. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Oh, that’s probably the case. Yeah, it was like a mini party convention. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Oh, that’s probably the case. Yeah, it was like a mini party convention. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, aside from huge technical feat, which is very cool, it also sounds like it was a real community event. What was it like to add him to the ofrenda? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, aside from huge technical feat, which is very cool, it also sounds like it was a real community event. What was it like to add him to the ofrenda? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>That was painful, that was by myself. I did not grieve at the memorial, I was just too busy, I kept myself distracted. But adding him to the ofrenda was just, oh, oh, that’s was a painful upload. I never prepared for that, but it was kind of fitting that he would end up getting put into the thing that he, well he spurned on. It was like the project that he put on to me, and now I have to keep that torch going for him. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>That was painful, that was by myself. I did not grieve at the memorial, I was just too busy, I kept myself distracted. But adding him to the ofrenda was just, oh, oh, that’s was a painful upload. I never prepared for that, but it was kind of fitting that he would end up getting put into the thing that he, well he spurned on. It was like the project that he put on to me, and now I have to keep that torch going for him. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa actually hasn’t visited Mark’s altar much since uploading it. He says he’s been avoiding it. This interview, where he showed me around, was one of the first times he’s back. Like his funeral itself, many of the memorials and tributes honoring Mark are really for the greater furry community to pay their respects. Changa said he struggles to grieve at these community spaces. Like last year, Furality wanted to honor Mark during the convention’s closing ceremony. So they asked Changa for a photo of Mark’s VR avatar. Since there weren’t any good ones available, Changa had to put on Mark’s fursona in VR. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa actually hasn’t visited Mark’s altar much since uploading it. He says he’s been avoiding it. This interview, where he showed me around, was one of the first times he’s back. Like his funeral itself, many of the memorials and tributes honoring Mark are really for the greater furry community to pay their respects. Changa said he struggles to grieve at these community spaces. Like last year, Furality wanted to honor Mark during the convention’s closing ceremony. So they asked Changa for a photo of Mark’s VR avatar. Since there weren’t any good ones available, Changa had to put on Mark’s fursona in VR. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I had to get into his avatar with a photographer and kind of do a shoot. And that was painful. You know, it’s like, I really wanted to get that over with. Yeah, well, yeah, get slipping into your dead partner’s body, essentially. But it was a beautiful tribute when they actually did it. It was lovely. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I had to get into his avatar with a photographer and kind of do a shoot. And that was painful. You know, it’s like, I really wanted to get that over with. Yeah, well, yeah, get slipping into your dead partner’s body, essentially. But it was a beautiful tribute when they actually did it. It was lovely. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Instead of these public tributes, Changa has his own way of honoring Mark’s memory. And of course, it involves virtual reality. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Instead of these public tributes, Changa has his own way of honoring Mark’s memory. And of course, it involves virtual reality. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m a good video editor and I was doing a whole bunch of very nostalgic stuff with modern music, you know, where I’m like putting people in original like movie footage — doing that scene from Risky Business, you now where they slide in, except it’s a werewolf. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m a good video editor and I was doing a whole bunch of very nostalgic stuff with modern music, you know, where I’m like putting people in original like movie footage — doing that scene from Risky Business, you now where they slide in, except it’s a werewolf. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa and his friends record the footage using tracking rigs. They dance and lip sync to the music, and then Changa composites their fursonas over movie scenes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa and his friends record the footage using tracking rigs. They dance and lip sync to the music, and then Changa composites their fursonas over movie scenes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And the first one I worked on was from The Birdcage. It’s that iconic scene on the park bench with the boat going by the harbor. And that was the moment where Robin Williams and Nathan Lane’s characters are sitting down and it’s kind of the, you know, “I’m 50 whatever and you’re my family. You’re the only person I wanna spend the rest of my life with.” It is iconic queer media. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And the first one I worked on was from The Birdcage. It’s that iconic scene on the park bench with the boat going by the harbor. And that was the moment where Robin Williams and Nathan Lane’s characters are sitting down and it’s kind of the, you know, “I’m 50 whatever and you’re my family. You’re the only person I wanna spend the rest of my life with.” It is iconic queer media. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin Williams: \u003c/strong>What does it matter? Take it all. I’m 50 years old. There’s only one place in the world I call home, and it’s because you’re there. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin Williams: \u003c/strong>What does it matter? Take it all. I’m 50 years old. There’s only one place in the world I call home, and it’s because you’re there. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The birdcage scene in Changa’s music video is just a few seconds long. It has Changa as big, gray, husky fursona sitting on the bench, dressed in red pinstripe pants and rose-tinted glasses. It’s just like the outfit Nathan Lane wore in the movie. Changa lip syncs a line from the song, and then the music video shifts to another movie. But before the scene flashes by, you might catch a glimpse of Mark’s fursana, the mustelid called Sy Sable perched on the bench next to Changa. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The birdcage scene in Changa’s music video is just a few seconds long. It has Changa as big, gray, husky fursona sitting on the bench, dressed in red pinstripe pants and rose-tinted glasses. It’s just like the outfit Nathan Lane wore in the movie. Changa lip syncs a line from the song, and then the music video shifts to another movie. But before the scene flashes by, you might catch a glimpse of Mark’s fursana, the mustelid called Sy Sable perched on the bench next to Changa. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I just hope he could see it wherever he is. I don’t think they have YouTube. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I just hope he could see it wherever he is. I don’t think they have YouTube. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like we said at the top, this episode first aired a year ago. We recently caught up with Changa over email. He said he’s actually planning a rebuild of the Furry Family Ofrenda, with the help of a larger development team (of fellow furries, of course) and better technology. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like we said at the top, this episode first aired a year ago. We recently caught up with Changa over email. He said he’s actually planning a rebuild of the Furry Family Ofrenda, with the help of a larger development team (of fellow furries, of course) and better technology. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>His hope is that it’ll be easier to find individual altars in this revamped world, and implement a better system for submitting information for each memorial. Basically, streamlining the whole process so this world is easier to manage, and is more accessible.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>His hope is that it’ll be easier to find individual altars in this revamped world, and implement a better system for submitting information for each memorial. Basically, streamlining the whole process so this world is easier to manage, and is more accessible.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Although he spends a lot of time maintaining the Furry Family Ofrenda, Changa hadn’t been to Mark’s altar much since his passing — except for our interview last year. But a few months later, on Dia de los Muertos, Changa finally sat down at Mark’s memorial, and took in the world they built together.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Although he spends a lot of time maintaining the Furry Family Ofrenda, Changa hadn’t been to Mark’s altar much since his passing — except for our interview last year. But a few months later, on Dia de los Muertos, Changa finally sat down at Mark’s memorial, and took in the world they built together.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Over email, he said: “Dealing with loss can really be such a slow burn.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Over email, he said: “Dealing with loss can really be such a slow burn.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’ll be back next week with another deep dive. For now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’ll be back next week with another deep dive. For now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Jen Chien, who is our Director of Podcasts. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Jen Chien, who is our Director of Podcasts. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. If you like these deep dives and want to support public media, become a member at donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. If you like these deep dives and want to support public media, become a member at donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Morgan explores what it means for a community to grieve both a person and the character they brought to life.",
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"title": "How the Furry Fandom Says Goodbye (Reload) | KQED",
"description": "Anthrocon, the largest gathering of furries in the world, just celebrated its 20th anniversary in July — so we’re re-airing one of our favorite episodes yet. Furries are a community often known for wearing full-body animal suits at conventions — but the characters they inhabit, called “fursonas,” are much more than costumes. They’re deeply personal expressions of identity and creativity.So when someone in the furry fandom dies, how does the community say goodbye? In some cases, they take to VR. Since 2020, a furry named Changa Husky has been running the Furry Family Ofrenda, a virtual memorial space inspired by the Mexican holiday Día de los Muertos. It’s a place where furries gather to remember and celebrate the people — and fursonas — who have passed. In this episode, Morgan steps into that virtual world to explore what it means for a community to grieve both a person and the character they brought to life.",
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"socialDescription": "Anthrocon, the largest gathering of furries in the world, just celebrated its 20th anniversary in July — so we’re re-airing one of our favorite episodes yet. Furries are a community often known for wearing full-body animal suits at conventions — but the characters they inhabit, called “fursonas,” are much more than costumes. They’re deeply personal expressions of identity and creativity.So when someone in the furry fandom dies, how does the community say goodbye? In some cases, they take to VR. Since 2020, a furry named Changa Husky has been running the Furry Family Ofrenda, a virtual memorial space inspired by the Mexican holiday Día de los Muertos. It’s a place where furries gather to remember and celebrate the people — and fursonas — who have passed. In this episode, Morgan steps into that virtual world to explore what it means for a community to grieve both a person and the character they brought to life.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anthrocon, the largest gathering of furries in the world, just celebrated its 20th anniversary in July — so we’re re-airing one of our favorite episodes yet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Furries are a community often known for wearing full-body animal suits at conventions, but the characters they inhabit, called “fursonas,” are much more than costumes. They’re deeply personal expressions of identity and creativity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So when someone in the furry fandom dies, how does the community say goodbye? In some cases, they take to VR. Since 2020, a furry named Changa Husky has been running the \u003ca href=\"https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_8b9be9e0-f4f3-4f3e-b671-0a0714fa262a\">Furry Family Ofrenda\u003c/a>, a virtual memorial space inspired by the Mexican holiday Día de los Muertos. It’s a place where furries gather to remember and celebrate the people — and fursonas — who have passed. In this episode, Morgan steps into that virtual world to explore what it means for a community to grieve both a person and the character they brought to life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC1428041683\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/changa.gay\">Changa Husky\u003c/a>, furry Vtuber and video producer\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://dogpatch.press/author/patchofurr/\">Patch O’Furr\u003c/a>, founder and writer, \u003cem>Dogpatch Press\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://thespinoff.co.nz/internet/11-01-2022/who-runs-the-internet-furries\">Who runs the internet? Furries\u003c/a> — Dylan Reeve, \u003cem>The Spinoff \u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://dogpatch.press/2024/02/22/remembering-mark-merlino/\">Remembering Mark Merlino (1952-2024), a founder and soul of furry fandom \u003c/a>— Patch O’Furr, \u003cem>Dogpatch Press \u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv0QaTW3kEY\">The Fandom: A Furry Documentary\u003c/a> — Ash Coyote, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqOFuRic3KU\">Never Ending Song – Doggo Edition \u003c/a>— Changa Husky, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_8b9be9e0-f4f3-4f3e-b671-0a0714fa262a\">Visit the Furry Family Ofrenda\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! Look, we don’t have a clipping army or bot farms to astroturf virality, so it would be a huge help to get the word out. All I’m saying is, we would not be opposed if you want to start a Close All Tabs stan account. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Earlier this month, the US was ablaze with fireworks for our country’s 250th anniversary. But in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the weekend of the Fourth of July is a big deal every year. That’s when the furries take over. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Every July, crowds of anthropomorphic animals descend upon downtown Pittsburgh — a huge boost to the local economy. You might see a cluster of attendees at the local cafe, dressed in regular clothes — but holding their lattes between gloves that look like furry paws. You’ll probably catch a few milling about the city in fuzzy fox ears and clip on tails. But at the convention center itself, out of the blazing summer heat, is another world of fantastical, otherworldly beasts. That’s where you’ll find the crowds in full fursuits, covered head to toe so they don’t look human and all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Anthrocon, the world’s largest get together for furries. This year, the convention drew over 20,000 attendees for workshops, artist markets, charity events, meet and greets, and of course, the big fursuit parade. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just over a year ago, just in time for Anthrocon, we aired a very special episode about furry funerals — what it means to grieve a version of someone that the rest of the world might not see. And how furries, being incredibly tech adept, have used virtual reality to memorialize their loved ones. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Among the Close All Tabs team, this is one of our favorite episodes of the show — and genuinely, maybe one of my favorite stories that I’ve ever worked on in my entire journalistic career. So in honor of Anthrocon’s big 20th anniversary this year, we’re re-airing this very special episode. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if you’re like, wait, what the hell are furries? What does any of this have to do with your whole thing of “how the digital world shapes our real lives?” Well … stick around. This is \u003cem>How the Furry Fandom Says Goodbye. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m standing under a black sky with cobalt blue clouds. In front of me looms an Aztec pyramid. There are trees in the distance with puffs of fuchsia and chartreuse leaves. And there’s a massive tree growing in the center of the pyramid too. The steps leading to the top are lined with candles, as well as an array of offerings like food and sugar skulls. Strung throughout the space are vibrant paper flags featuring intricate designs of cartoon animals. A variety of creatures appear and then disappear around me. Foxes, dragons, and beings that look like more ethereal versions of Sonic the Hedgehog. And my guide to this mystical place?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I’m Changa Husky. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa is an anthropomorphic, animated husky dog. He has gray fur that’s lighter around his muzzle and a tuft of black hair on top of his head. His eyes are icy blue behind gold-rimmed glasses and his brown ears move as his facial expressions change. He and I are together in this virtual world, but I’m talking to him through the screen of my laptop. And yes, there is a real person under his virtual costume. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I am a furry of an older variety. I’ve been in the fandom for decades since at least the early to mid-90s, and I’m here to talk about, well, this world I built in virtual reality. We call this the Furry Family Ofrenda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This VR world is inspired by the Day of the Dead, the Mexican holiday dedicated to honoring the lives of those who have passed away. Families welcome back spirits of their loved ones with altars called “ofrendas,” adorned with photos, candles, flowers, and offerings of the departed’s favorite foods. This isn’t a holiday for mourning, but for celebrating. Changa shows me how this virtual world is dotted with altars, each one with a framed photo, candles and a plaque. They’re all dedicated to the fursonas of people who have passed away. Fursona is a portmanteau of fur and persona, essentially an alter ego. And just a note, in this episode, we’ll be referring to a few people, including Changa, by their “fursona” names. Furries are often the targets of harassment and bullying, so many of them are publicly known only by their pseudonyms to maintain their safety and privacy. Beyond that, fursonas are kind of like a drag persona. It’s how a lot of furries express themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> A lot of drag personas are just that person exploring their identity. To be able to put on a mask and amplify your personality. It ends up being a way of exploring your identity and yourself. And not in those cliches of, “oh, I identify as blah, blah, blah.” It’s like, no, I know I’m human. But there are ways you can explore who you are and how you interact with the world and friends, through the lens of um like an anthropomorphic creature. It’s very much a medium. It’s like a medium of expression. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa stops at one particular altar with a framed photo of an older man, a human person, to be clear. He’s got glasses and he’s smiling from under his gray mustache. And he’s wearing a baseball cap with two fluffy auburn ears sticking out of it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> His fursona was a mustelid, a pine martin, a kind of tree weasel, and he was, well, very much the weasel persona. They have to be a little fearless, you know, tiny little carnivore. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This pine martin was named Sy Sable, also known as Mark Merlino. He passed away a year ago, and he was Changa’s life partner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> This project was his idea. So it was beautiful but painful that I had to add him in here. I was with him for close to 30 years before he passed. I mean, many marriages do not last that long. And here we are a polycule. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark Merlino and Mark’s other partner, Rodney O’Reilly, are known as the grandfathers of the furry fandom. Their house, where Changa also lives, has been a home base for the fandom for decades. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney, the founders of the first furry convention, were a bisexual couple, openly. And they started the convention in 1989, which was not the greatest time period to be very openly queer. Let’s be real, much less running a convention. And that became a safe space for a lot of people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Now outsiders might only know the subculture as a weird kink for dressing up as animals. And because of that stigma, a lot of furries aren’t open about being furries to people outside of the fandom. And that means grieving, for furries, might look a little different. Even if someone wasn’t open about being a furry to the rest of the world, the furry community remembers that person’s fursona as much as their real-life presence. And then there’s the fandom’s technical aptitude. There’s a long running joke online that if a plane full of furries goes down, then Silicon Valley will crumble because furries built the modern IT industry. The furry fandom evolved with the internet and since the 80s, furries have always been pioneers of emerging tech. They’ve incorporated it into their costuming and conventions and even memorials. So what does a furry funeral look like? What does it mean to memorialize an aspect of someone’s life that may not have been part of their bodily form, but was still a part of the identity? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> We’ll come back to Changa and the Furry Family Ofrenda. But first, we need to understand this fandom. You know how this goes: we open a new tab. What does it mean to be a furry? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Look, I may be chronically online, but I’m still an outsider when it comes to this fandom. So to explain furries, I reached out to someone who’s actually part of the community. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> I’m Patch. I go by Patch O’Furr online. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Patch runs the furry news site, Dogpatch Press. The site covers furry conventions, the furry economy, and has even investigated furry crimes. But before all that, Patch was brand new to San Francisco and exploring the city’s nightlife. Back in 2012, he stumbled across a furry party at a gay bar within walking distance of his apartment. Out of curiosity, he stopped by. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> So I showed up and um you know I’m walking down a dark street and here’s this club in front of me with you know some muffled beats and some light coming in through the cracks and uh I walk up to the door and there’s like this beckoning werewolf paw pulling me in. And I walked into this just magical experience. It was being transported to another dimension. I went over towards the dance floor. This was a famous dive bar with like a little postage stamp of a dance floor and I was kind of lurking on the edge and then I saw this amazing sight. There was this six foot cartoon otter who came out from behind a curtain and it just gave me this urge to ask him to dance. And, you know, this is a cartoon character and it’s very loud. So we’re using kind of body language and he just pulls me in and we’re dancing. And I’m just sort of like, wow, this is a cartoon character, but I can actually hug him. And right there I decided I have to be one of these characters. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The otter that Patch met was wearing a “fur suit.” Picture something like a mascot at a theme park. Some people build their own fur suits, which is pretty labor intensive and requires a lot of technical sewing skills. Others commission their fur suits from artists, but that can cost upwards of a couple thousand dollars. Patch ended up finding his fur suit on an auction site. There was one dog suit, a husky to be specific, that jumped out at him. He won the bid, and it arrived just in time for a local furry convention. Patch decided to debut the character that weekend. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> And there at the hotel when I put it on, it was a very strange feeling for the first 30 minutes. You’re completely immersed. There’s no skin, your senses are sort of muffled, you have tunnel vision. But then, you start to feel this connection with the people who are around you. They’re seeing you as somebody who’s different and kind of magical, and it’s a very addictive feeling. You know, it’s getting out of yourself, but it’s also making a new version of yourself. You can kind of be reborn with this one life that you’re given. And it’s really special to be able to do that and be validated by everybody else who’s doing that. There’s a strong overlap between queer communities and furry communities. And it’s not necessarily that furry is an identity itself. The more accurate definition is um we’re talking about expressing identity. So furry is queer as, you know, so is musical theater or disco or other things that are attached to the queer community, you now, drag. Drag is not always practiced by queer people, but it’s very strongly allied. So the same is true with furries. So they are adopting a fursona so they can be themselves more. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa, the husky we talked to earlier, pointed out that there are also a lot of neurodivergent people who gravitate toward the furry fandom. Putting on a fursona can be like masking. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> I mean, people like in this community can have a lot of social anxiety. Um, I mean we are a very neurodiverse, uh, community. We’re very queer, we’re very neurodiverse. And so this community, people will like put on these masks to like actually tell more truth about themselves. Cause I mean let’s be real, real, everybody out there in the real world is always wearing a mask. You’ve got your work persona. You have who you are at the grocery store or at church or what have you, um, you know even to family members and being able to put on say, I don’t know, a doggy persona and just explore that way and be seen that way is a way of interacting with friends and family, um or even just yourself in ways that are actually kind of therapeutic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So for a lot of furries, the fandom has provided a space to be queer and neurodivergent without judgment. Changa actually found the fandom after watching Lion King. Yes, that’s the 1994 Disney animated movie, Lion King. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> There’s always um like a piece of media that was the inflection point for a lot of furries. Classically, it was Disney’s Robin Hood, you know, something about those foxes. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But it was Lion King for you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> Lion King. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This was the early 90s at the peak of the AIDS epidemic. It was dangerous to be openly gay, especially in Kansas, where Changa lived at the time. He found solace online in animation role-playing discussion boards. And that’s where he met Mark, who was also obsessed with Disney animation. They hit it off and started talking on the phone. After visiting Mark in California once, Changa decided to move. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky:\u003c/strong> And this is how I knew Mark was a keeper. He dropped everything, drove to Kansas and helped me move cross country. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark and Rodney had an extra room, so Changa ended up moving in and, over time, joined this queer furry polycule. Their house, which is known as the Prancing Skilltaire, is a base for a lot of the fandom. Since the 80s, the Prancing Skilltaire has hosted monthly furry parties, furry convention staff meetings, and other furry get-togethers. They’ve also taken in young queer people who were kicked out of their homes, and once even hosted an impromptu wedding. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>They’re over there doing their vows. And I just leaned over to Rodney going, “wait, wait. Are they trans? They’re trans.” And it’s like, “yeah, yeah.” It’s, like, “did we just have a trans wedding in our backyard?” He’s like, “yeah.” Like, huh, okay, cool. Um and that was like, oh God, that was more than a decade ago. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Prancing Skilltaire is just one hub for the furry community. The fandom has evolved into a widespread, thriving subculture, and as furries have passed on over the decades, the community has come up with unique ways to honor them. Some choose to pass their costume on to a loved one after they die, and let the character they embodied live a second life. Patch said that this also celebrates the artist who made the fursuit. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patch O’Furr:\u003c/strong> Another way people can be remembered is they can just have their costume displayed. I know that there are people who have their costumes placed on like a dummy and it’s kept in a certain place in their house. So you can go and say hi to the person again and just have that experience of them having a presence, a physical presence still. There’s also ways that people set up having their costume worn by friends at special occasions, maybe once a year, just so they’re present again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That idea of coming back to visit the living really stuck with Mark Merlino, too. He had seen a lot of his peers in the fandom age and pass away, and wanted to honor their memory somehow. Changa said that Mark was obsessed with the Disney Pixar movie Coco, which is about spirits returning home on the day of the dead. In 2018, Mark built an ofrenda display at PAWCon, a furry convention that happened to take place during the holiday. It was just a small room at the event with a single decorated table, but people loved it. They left notes and offerings and photos. So the next year, Mark built another one. He wanted to make it an annual tradition. But then in 2020, the pandemic shut down conventions. It shut down everything else too. Life moved to the internet and so did grieving. That’s a new tab, but first a quick break. Okay, we’re back. Time to open a new tab. And for this one, we’re jumping back into VR. The Furry Family Ofrenda. You made it in one piece? We’re back in VR chat, in this world that Changa and Mark built with the Aztec pyramid, candles, and altars. Right now, Changa is showing me how users can leave offerings. He’s placing a virtual meatball sub on Mark’s ofronda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Did he like meatball subs? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Uh, yeah, actually he did. Um, we only have so much limited space. Um, I mean, all of this has to be downloaded and rendered on people’s, um, video cards. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I know Mark had built that small a friend at this real life in person convention. But can you tell me about this move to VR? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>At the time, of course, we’re all locked in in 2020. And this platform, VRChat, had existed already. And then I saw on Twitter at the time people posting pictures from this virtual convention, Furality. And when I went in there it was like, “this is the vibe of a real convention.” This was the real community that I knew. And there was something amazing about slipping on an avatar like this and actually seeing yourself the way you would internally think about yourself. Well, it’s like fursuiting only, well, I won’t say cheaper, good lord, the amount of computer upgrades and technology just keep up in here. But it’s, like, wearing a fursuit without suffocating. Hell, I had my midlife crisis and went canine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s when Mark had an idea. Instead of building a single physical ofrenda, why not build a VR world where each furry could have their own? He didn’t have the technical skills to make it happen, but Changa did. So, Changa started digging through a site called WikiFur, which is like Wikipedia for furries. He started adding ofrendas for each furry listed as deceased on WikiFur. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And it just kind of blew up from there. Now it’s just more of a matter of trying to keep up as people pass. Which is, oh god, well I would really hope people would kind of stop doing that. That would be, that would be great. It’s not as bad as it was in 2020. 2020 was traumatic. You’re really changing when you’re sitting there counting the dead within your own community. And this actually gave a lot of people a space to kind of mourn, given that we weren’t able to really, like, be together in person. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The original Furry Family Ofrenda was pretty basic. Changa had to work with pre-made assets and none of them were made for the Day of the Dead. It definitely wasn’t culturally accurate. In 2021, the Furry Family Ofrenda got a makeover with the help of a Mexican furry convention called Confuror. The event is based in Guadalajara, Mexico, but during the pandemic lockdown, it was entirely on VRChat, and they wanted to host part of it in the Furry Family Ofrenda. The event organizers hired Mexican artists to design new 3D assets for the space so that it could look more like a real Day of the Dead festival. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m not from the culture that this celebration came comes from, but they helped immensely. I’m glad it’s the kind of culture that that was shareable, you know, it’s because it’s a beautiful way of dealing with mourning. Because I mean a lot of mourning is like sitting around crying and I know Mark preferred the idea of like joyfully talking about people that passed and remembering them, you know bring out the food celebrate, talk, and all that. And it was really wonderful to be able to bring a piece of that into a virtual space. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In the five years since Changa built it, the Furry Family Ofrenda has memorialized countless furries. Some of the altars feature photos of people’s real faces, but many of them honor their fursona too, which may not be acknowledged in any real-life memorials. You don’t need a whole VR setup. You can access it from any computer or mobile app. That’s why it’s become an important gathering spot for the community. That connection to the larger community became really important to the Prancing Skilltaire household during the pandemic lockdowns. And then again, when Mark got sick. Let’s talk about that in a new tab. Remembering Sy Sable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>When he went sick, I mean, both me and Rodney were like breaking. Let’s be real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark had a stroke in December 2023, but was stable enough to come home in time for Christmas. Then he got sicker during that holiday week. After seven hospitals, an ICU stay, and a stint in a rehab center, Mark was diagnosed with stage four terminal liver cancer. That news shook the furry community. Once word got out, furries put together a GoFundMe to cover his medical bills. People who had attended Prancing Skilltaire parties or crashed on their sofa when they were kicked out for being gay, showed up to help with Mark’s hospice care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>So there was a lot of outpouring of love. And I mean, when you have, you know, young, like early 20-year-old kid showing up at your door with a covered dish while, you know, your partner’s hospicing, it says a lot. That is community. That is, you know, the found family. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And those who couldn’t help out in person kept him company in VR. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were bringing in, you know, had a tablet for Mark, where he could talk over Discord with various friends that he’d gotten to know on VR. And so he was able, from his deathbed, to, you now, have conversations with various friends that we were scheduling. He could, essentially on a tablet, get to talk with people who are still presenting themselves with avatars and the way they saw themselves and the way he saw them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Mark passed away in his home at the Prancing Skilltaire last February. Changa and Rodney knew that Mark didn’t want a traditional somber funeral. Remember that bit about furries building the tech industry as we know it? Changa and Rodney incorporated that into Mark’s funeral too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We were both kind of agreement that it should be a big blow-out party. We would celebrate him and so we rented out a hall and given the virtual reality community that both he and I were involved in and close to the staff, the convention Furality decided to help us with some resources and they built a VR portal so that people could show up and give their respects virtually. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Furality is the virtual reality convention that initially got Mark and Changa into using VRChat. A VR portal is a massive screen that acts as a window between the real world and VR for people who can’t make it to events in person. Usually conventions, but in this case, a funeral. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>They rented out the equipment and we had to scout out how good the internet was because our requirements, just a little off the beaten path of normally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So the physical funeral was beamed into a virtual room that Furality had built for the event. Meanwhile, that virtual room was beamed into the funeral. People took turns speaking about Mark. They either spoke from the real life podium or from a huge screen that displayed the VR portal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>We did have also several hundred people actually at the event, and there was that level of chaos that um, technical chaos that just keeps me focused. Like, “okay, we need to string cable.” Really what it came down to is it really felt like every other community social convention sort of situation that we’d been trained for, that like we essentially took all the stuff we would have done setting up at a hotel for a convention, just really concentrated in a hurry, in a hall. We had drawing pads where people were sketching, little tribute sort of things. I brought in a little portable TV from the 80s, and it was playing media that was related to Sy, some of his stuff he’d shot. So there’s like all this mix of kind of like technology, retro technology, art, and of course junk food. We actually had fursuiters. People got into fursuit too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, it doesn’t sound like any funeral I’ve ever seen or been to. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>Oh, that’s probably the case. Yeah, it was like a mini party convention. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, aside from huge technical feat, which is very cool, it also sounds like it was a real community event. What was it like to add him to the ofrenda? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>That was painful, that was by myself. I did not grieve at the memorial, I was just too busy, I kept myself distracted. But adding him to the ofrenda was just, oh, oh, that’s was a painful upload. I never prepared for that, but it was kind of fitting that he would end up getting put into the thing that he, well he spurned on. It was like the project that he put on to me, and now I have to keep that torch going for him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa actually hasn’t visited Mark’s altar much since uploading it. He says he’s been avoiding it. This interview, where he showed me around, was one of the first times he’s back. Like his funeral itself, many of the memorials and tributes honoring Mark are really for the greater furry community to pay their respects. Changa said he struggles to grieve at these community spaces. Like last year, Furality wanted to honor Mark during the convention’s closing ceremony. So they asked Changa for a photo of Mark’s VR avatar. Since there weren’t any good ones available, Changa had to put on Mark’s fursona in VR. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I had to get into his avatar with a photographer and kind of do a shoot. And that was painful. You know, it’s like, I really wanted to get that over with. Yeah, well, yeah, get slipping into your dead partner’s body, essentially. But it was a beautiful tribute when they actually did it. It was lovely. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Instead of these public tributes, Changa has his own way of honoring Mark’s memory. And of course, it involves virtual reality. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I’m a good video editor and I was doing a whole bunch of very nostalgic stuff with modern music, you know, where I’m like putting people in original like movie footage — doing that scene from Risky Business, you now where they slide in, except it’s a werewolf. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Changa and his friends record the footage using tracking rigs. They dance and lip sync to the music, and then Changa composites their fursonas over movie scenes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>And the first one I worked on was from The Birdcage. It’s that iconic scene on the park bench with the boat going by the harbor. And that was the moment where Robin Williams and Nathan Lane’s characters are sitting down and it’s kind of the, you know, “I’m 50 whatever and you’re my family. You’re the only person I wanna spend the rest of my life with.” It is iconic queer media. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robin Williams: \u003c/strong>What does it matter? Take it all. I’m 50 years old. There’s only one place in the world I call home, and it’s because you’re there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The birdcage scene in Changa’s music video is just a few seconds long. It has Changa as big, gray, husky fursona sitting on the bench, dressed in red pinstripe pants and rose-tinted glasses. It’s just like the outfit Nathan Lane wore in the movie. Changa lip syncs a line from the song, and then the music video shifts to another movie. But before the scene flashes by, you might catch a glimpse of Mark’s fursana, the mustelid called Sy Sable perched on the bench next to Changa. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Changa Husky: \u003c/strong>I just hope he could see it wherever he is. I don’t think they have YouTube. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Like we said at the top, this episode first aired a year ago. We recently caught up with Changa over email. He said he’s actually planning a rebuild of the Furry Family Ofrenda, with the help of a larger development team (of fellow furries, of course) and better technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His hope is that it’ll be easier to find individual altars in this revamped world, and implement a better system for submitting information for each memorial. Basically, streamlining the whole process so this world is easier to manage, and is more accessible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although he spends a lot of time maintaining the Furry Family Ofrenda, Changa hadn’t been to Mark’s altar much since his passing — except for our interview last year. But a few months later, on Dia de los Muertos, Changa finally sat down at Mark’s memorial, and took in the world they built together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Over email, he said: “Dealing with loss can really be such a slow burn.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll be back next week with another deep dive. For now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Jen Chien, who is our Director of Podcasts. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. If you like these deep dives and want to support public media, become a member at donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "are-we-doomed-if-the-internet-goes-dark",
"title": "Are We Doomed If The Internet Goes Dark?",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What are the chances that the internet could go down forever? How bad for humanity would it be if it did? And what would a shift back to the before-times look like? These are the kinds of questions “doom reporter” Ben Bradford tries to answer in his new podcast, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Morgan and Ben discuss the scenarios that might lead to a long-term internet outage — from severed undersea cables to a massive solar storm. And they tackle the most pressing question of all: will influencers survive the internet apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7222381679\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guest: \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben Bradford, journalist and host of \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ben Bradford, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://pod.link/1893359212/episode/cHJ4XzE2ODU3XzAxYmFmM2NmLWU4ZWEtNDM0ZS05YTFlLTgyYzgzMjE1OGI3Yg?view=apps&sort=popularity\">We Try and Kill the Internet\u003c/a> — Ben Bradford, \u003ci>Are We Doomed?\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/amazon-explains-how-its-aws-outage-took-down-the-web/\">Amazon Explains How Its AWS Outage Took Down the Web\u003c/a> – Matt Burgess and Lily Hay Newman, \u003ci>WIRED \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/the-aws-outage-bricked-peoples-2-700-smartbeds/\">The AWS Outage Bricked People’s $2,700 Smartbeds\u003c/a> – Matthew Gault, \u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/complex-structure-supported-by-a-tiny-part\">Complex Structure Supported by a Tiny Part\u003c/a> – \u003ci>Know Your Meme \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2024/04/02/a-stealth-attack-came-close-to-compromising-the-worlds-computers\">A Stealth Attack Came Close to Compromising the World’s Computers\u003c/a> – \u003ci>The Economist\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a Tabby or a Tab Head or part of the Tab Hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us. Under our watch, every tab in the land will be closed, eventually. I mean, I have like 15 open right now. Okay, let’s get to the show\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> Okay, not to brag, but last year Close All Tabs won a pretty special award, the Media Literate Media Award from NAML. That’s the National Association for Media Literacy. According to them, we’ve helped listeners better understand the internet, which is pretty cool. Ben Bradford, a veteran public radio journalist, also won the award. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I recently talked with him, and obviously had to bring it up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, thanks so much for joining us, Ben. Um, to start off, we both received NAMLE awards at the same time, which means that our takes are always correct. We are so media literate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s exactly right. We- it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s been proven. We’re credentialed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly. I have a little plaque that says, “My takes are always correct.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben has long been fascinated by politics and history and climate and disaster, which means he spends a lot of time thinking about the end of the world. And now he’s launched a new project. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My name is Ben Bradford, and I am the creator and host of a new podcast that’s called Are We Doomed?, which is the cheery title for a show about the end of the world. And we look at practical threats to society and to humanity. We look at internet hysteria. We look at, like, our pop culture obsession with the end of the world, and try to find some hope in the darkness. And I think that we actually do that, which has been very fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Today, we’re actually doing something a little different than our usual deep dives. You see, Are We Doomed? recently explored my personal doomsday scenario. What happens if the internet goes out forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This would really suck for Close All Tabs, a show that literally revolves around the internet. It would also suck for me, someone who’s built an entire career around covering the online world. But this also goes way deeper than just a job. There are so many habits ingrained in my life that depend on internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not talking mindless scrolling. I mean daily functions, like LA earthquake Twitter\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I live in Los Angeles, so does Ben, and every time there’s even the slightest rumble afoot, I run straight to social media to check if it was indeed an earthquake. Despite its name, the concept of LA earthquake Twitter transcends a single social media platform. It’s the communal experience of everyone in Southern California going online to see if anyone else felt that rumble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Was that an earthquake? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time it’s not, but there have been times when some earthquake hobbyist on social media confirms it before any news outlet does. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The earthquake one is funny ’cause I definitely do that, and I also get… You know how people get phantom vibrations for their phone- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> where they think that their phone is buzzing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I get that for earthquakes. I don’t know if you ever get that- Yeah … where I’m like, “Man, was that an earthquake?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But, you know, how will I ever be sure if, if I can’t check Twitter? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You need it \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This isn’t a frivolous concern, okay? The entire infrastructure of modern warning systems relies on internet connection.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For minor shakes, I’ll run to LA Earthquake Twitter, but if a big one’s coming, I’ll probably get a push alert from ShakeAlert first. That’s the West Coast Earthquake Warning System. It calculates the magnitude of potential earthquakes and where they might hit, and then automatically sends alerts to that area, which trigger safety actions like slowing down trains, shutting off elevators, and turning on hospital generators, and hopefully with enough time to get people to safety.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But to do all that, ShakeAlert gathers data from a sprawling network of sensors transmitted electronically online. The algorithms that figure out if an earthquake is actually dangerous process from the cloud. And to actually send this information to people, obviously the system needs the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Internet connection is baked into every step of the process. It’s why the very concept of the internet going dark is such a terrifying doomsday event. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have become so reliant on this very complicated technology, and that happens in various ways throughout human history. I think we can safely say there has not been one as complicated, and that requires so many other things to keep running. I mean, you know, from, uh, electricity to infrastructure to software. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As a self-described doom reporter, this kept Ben up at night. LA Earthquake Twitter and the complex warning system behind it is just one example. The infrastructure of society is internet based. Our drinking water processing sites, our food supply chains, our hospital equipment, these all rely on systems that can only function with internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for his podcast, Are We Doomed?, Ben looked into it. I said we’re doing things a little differently for this one, right? Today, Ben and I are both going to take you on a deep dive as we attempt to get to the bottom of some questions you might be asking yourself right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Has the internet ever gone dark before? What kind of doomsday scenarios are we looking at here? Could we survive? And the question I was dying to ask, how likely is this really? Buckle up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s open our first tab. How important is the internet to our lives?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just like my fear of losing LA earthquake Twitter, this question feels frivolous. But like the warning system behind it, losing the internet will cut a lot deeper than you might think. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so then the question becomes, one, how reliant are we actually? What ability do we have to roll back if this thing were to leave us, and not for an inconvenient couple of hours, not for a day, but for longer? And then two, is there a way for that to happen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So you actually looked at a real world, um, case study of this that took place in northern Arizona in 2015. What happened there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So 2015, the internet went out in Flagstaff and surrounding areas, and it is an interesting case study because of just how many things suddenly didn’t work and what people could figure out how to do and what they couldn’t figure out how to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Here’s an excerpt from this episode of Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Northern Arizona, TV screens cut out. ATMs broke down. Credit card readers, gone. Cell phone service, gone. 911, jammed. Banks, courthouses, bars, you name it, in disarray\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What had happened was this big internet cable that delivers internet to that area of Arizona had been cut by copper thieves probably looking for copper wire. And so it’s sort of a small vulnerability. The cable’s just out there. It stretches hundreds of miles. You go, you saw in, you take the copper, and it has this really dramatic effect.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From emergency services to sewer systems, it became clear that this one cable was foundational to the infrastructure that kept northern Arizona going. One reporter called it the area’s digital umbilical cord. This outage only lasted half a day and affected a 100-mile stretch of communities. It makes me wonder, what if the internet went down for the whole world, and it lasted much longer, even forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, but the situation in Arizona happened over 10 years ago. Surely society as a whole has learned from that experience and developed better backup plans since then, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So this is one of the questions that we looked at and didn’t thrill me because I don’t think that I loved the answers to it. As we embrace the internet more as a fundamental technology, and we build more things on top of it, we, we do simply have less backups. And so I remember talking to a friend of mine, I just pinged him while I was working on a story. Um, he’s the medical director in an emergency department at a major hospital, and I said, “Hey, if the internet went down, and not for a day, but for a while, what would it mean for you?” And he said, “We’d be out of luck.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s how we submit prescriptions. That is how we look up patients. That’s how we transfer them between places.” And so it’s funny because hospitals have backup generators, but they don’t have a backup internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m thinking of that scene in The Pit when, uh, the hospital systems go down because of a cyber attack and- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> all these doctors have to suddenly go back to clipboards and charting by hand and, like, reading manual, uh, test results. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from The Pitt]:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is how we rolled when I was a resident. Was that in the 1900s? Yeah, when charts were written by candlelight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The part of it that I think is sort of fascinating is just how expansive that question becomes. Things that surprised me are, like, the degree to which our water treatment centers rely on network connectivity. There are reports that have been written, federal government inspector general reports or GAO reports, that look at the vulnerability of water treatment centers to cyber attacks, for instance, and that’s not great.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, you would prefer that your water not be hacked, and I don’t know that we wanna create a system where we rely on our water where it’s vulnerable to hacking. Like, that’s sort of a strange thing. Uh- Well, who thought? Totally, and then it becomes, okay, in our sort of galaxy brain scenario where the whole internet goes down or this technology just becomes unfeasible, it’s like, yeah, your drinking water is degraded, if available at all, and that’s pretty wild. And it depends on the area that you’re in, and there’s some nuance to that, but it shows the extent to what we’re looking at here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So it seems like a lot of these scenarios that we’ve talked about, the fictional one in The Pit or, you know- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the one in Arizona, like, all these scenarios have an end date or an end time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, they will come to an end and that’s comforting. But in the event that the whole world’s internet does go dark, I mean, what would happen? Like, genuinely, would we die without the internet? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I can’t predict the- … the future or the hypothetical of it, but I will say that I think it would be massively disruptive for a longer amount of time than we might think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When it comes to survival, the main questions are over food and water. Our food system is incredibly reliant on the internet. Crops don’t rely on the internet to grow, but the cargo shipping systems that get that food into our grocery stores do, and these systems also send necessary supplies to the farms that grow our food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these systems rely on the internet and our ability to communicate through it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And while I am confident in humanity’s resilience and cleverness in being able to figure out workarounds, I think that the massive scale of the disruption, I mean, what it would do just to basically to money, you know, your stock market crashes, um, people can’t get access to their money. How often are you looking at paper bills, and what would those do for you in that world where so many other aspects of the financial system are down? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You start to get into this real hard-to-imagine world, right? But if you start kind of taking those individual pieces of hospitals and water treatment centers and the supply chain, and you add it all together, you get something that looks pretty dystopian and a lot like an apocalypse movie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that is, I think, what you’re dealing with in the near term if the internet goes down and doesn’t come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, I’m gonna be honest, it’s really hard to not, like, hear this and then, want to, I don’t know, buy baby goat to move to Ohi, which is- Right. Yeah … like the furthest, most rural place I can imagine. Like- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Before Ben and I get you all worked up into a panic, take a breath. Humanity survived for thousands of years before the internet, and if we had to, we could do it again, even if I personally would really rather not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re gonna dive into these offline doomsday scenarios after a quick break, but first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, could the internet really go down for good?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab. Could the internet go dark forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I posed this question to Ben, and if it’s any small comfort, he says it’s actually a lot harder to make that happen than you might think, and that’s because of the way this physical infrastructure is built. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know how we call it the World Wide Web? The phrase is actually kind of literal. There are these undersea cables that span all across the globe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is this sort of spider web connecting all the different continents in different ways, and the internet runs through all of them. If you cut one, the software of the internet figures out how to reroute the information. So when you think about Northern Arizona, that happens to be one area where there was sort of a choke point, one sort of big pipe connecting the internet to that region, and there are other places like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We saw several years ago a volcanic eruption in the ocean, uh, near Tonga. An undersea volcano blew through the ocean’s floor. Smoke and ash erupted into the sky. The force of the explosion unleashed a devastating tsunami, and that explosion also ripped through the underwater cable that delivers internet to Tonga.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Without communication, other countries struggled to provide relief. Tongans couldn’t access outside money. Much of the nation relies on remittances from family off the islands. Those stopped. In that case, it was a natural disaster that cut off Tonga from the internet. But people do attack undersea cables, and it’s hard to prove sabotage, although countries are constantly accusing each other, because the cables are unprotected, innocent, perfect for attack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was another sort of look at just how disruptive this kind of thing can be. So internet cables being severed can be a problem, but because the internet is decentralized and because the software is designed to find where it’s not working and then reroute, it’s generally not that big of a problem. One pipe goes down, and you can repair it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so Tonga was sort of like the worst-case scenario of that, and even then, the pipe gets repaired relatively quickly, and there are some workarounds you can put in place in the meantime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the Cold War, technologists started thinking about how to build a telecommunication system that could survive nuclear war.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Legend goes that the internet was built off of that, and so that’s that sort of decentralized network. One part goes down, and you imagine a spiderweb with, like, electricity running through it. Electricity runs through all the spiderweb, but one little tendril of spiderweb gets severed, and the electricity still courses through the rest of it, and that’s essentially how information flows through the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So even if you were to go and sever a lot of the undersea cables, it would be a problem. It would create slowdowns, but any places that the pipes were still running to would still work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That is comforting, simply cutting the cables connecting our world wouldn’t instantly doom us. But there is another theory of an event that could fry our internet, solar storms.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Solar storms are sudden bursts of energy from the sun with enough radiation that could affect our planet’s electrical systems. This has actually already happened on Earth in 1859. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you go back to the 1850s, the biggest technology of the day was the telegraph, and there was this event– it’s called the Carrington Event.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of a sudden, around the world, telegraph machines start going crazy. Telegraph stations in some cases are lighting on fire because they’re overloading. People are unplugging their telegraphs, and the telegraphs are still chattering away, and they don’t know what’s happening, right? They think they’re possessed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The night sky lit up like it was daytime. Some people thought it was daytime, and so they went to church. Uh, it was a solar storm. It was the biggest solar storm that we’ve had in recorded history \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And since 1859, we have become much more reliant on electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There are some questions about if we were to be hit with an equivalent event to that one back when there was telegraph, how well the internet would stand up. Like that seems to me like the best thing to blow out the hardware of the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But we have a government office called the Space Weather Center. It’s part of the, uh, National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration. You have utilities that are starting to take that threat more seriously. So you have some work being done, and I think the hope would be that by the time we have another one of those events, that we’re prepared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So from what you’ve been telling me, it sounds like the internet is actually a lot more resilient than you might think, than the, the doomsday people might be worried about. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I feel really good about it. The two things that I worry about are, um, I think that there are some software vulnerabilities. There’s a famous, uh, web comic, uh, from XKCD.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s, it’s Randall Munroe, who’s a former NASA rocket scientist, and just is, just absolutely brilliant, and he does these web comics. And there’s a very famous one that he does about the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s titled Dependency. So this image shows a drawing of a giant intricate tower of blocks stacked in increasingly complicated ways as you move toward the top. Above it, there’s text that says, “All modern digital infrastructure.” This is like Jenga from hell. At the bottom is a comically thin block holding up all the others. The caption says, “A project some random person in Nebraska has been thanklessly maintaining since 2003.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The artist posted Dependency in 2020, and it’s become a meme among software engineers who edit the tower higher and higher with even more precarious blocks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, there’s this one edit that has the blocks off-kilter, balanced on a lever labeled AI. The tiny block propping up the whole tower is labeled unpaid open source developers, while an angry bird flies toward the structure, ready to topple it over. That one is labeled whatever Microsoft is doing. The point is the internet as we know it is this tower, cobbled together, perpetually built upon by hobbyists doing it for free and companies that have their own agenda.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so if people were to identify those particular things, you could potentially knock them out and have unforeseen outages. Now, would that outage create, you know, the endless lack of internet? It seems like probably not. And it seems like people are clever and people are really good at hacking things in. But that’s one of the other vulnerabilities that we saw. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it seems like it doesn’t necessarily need to be some kind of bad actor going after that one thing a guy built in his basement in 2003 to take down huge parts of the internet. You know, I’m thinking of the AWS outage last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, for listeners, AWS, or Amazon Web Services, it’s the cloud computing platform that pretty much everyone uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the backbone of the internet. Last year, a DNS error brought it all down. DNS, domain name system. It’s the way the internet translates names to numbers, like translating the human language into one computers can understand. Some call DNS the phone book of the internet. Imagine all the contacts in your phone get wiped out, but your whole job is making calls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re the cog that keeps your whole machine running. So without your phone book, everything comes grinding to a halt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This led to a cascading comedy of errors that brought down, like, entire chunks of the internet. Like Ring cameras were down, online banking services went dark, my Roomba wouldn’t turn on because it couldn’t- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Your Roomba? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My Roomba actually went down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, obviously you can’t vacuum if you can’t use the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No. Well, even worse, it kept turning on and then getting lost, and then trying to get back to its dock, but it couldn’t find anything, and I was like, “Stop turning on.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’d you do? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I literally turned it upside down like a bug. Oh my God. It was so annoying. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, people’s smart beds went down and suddenly changed to, like, 100 degrees overnight, or it s- automatically set alarms off- Mm-hmm … in the middle of the night. It, it’s like parts of society just kind of came to a halt because of this one bug.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People have apartments they can’t get into, uh- Literally … unless there’s network connectivity. It… Literally, it’s like our whole lives are, like, smart devices now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the event of a real doomsday scenario, what does last year’s AWS outage tell us about society’s ability to function without even parts of the internet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, I think that that, again, is one of those examples that shows two sides of what we’re talking about here. It shows the level of disruption, and it also shows some of those pain points. Experts worry about the centralization of the internet because that becomes a potential vulnerability where one company goes down, one company has a bug like Amazon, and all of a sudden nothing works.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, that has only continued to build because 10, 15 years ago, if you were starting a business and it related in any way to the internet, you would buy your own servers, and you would usually host your own servers. But companies began to offer cloud services, and only a few companies are the big ones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AWS, Google has one, Oracle has one, and that is where almost all businesses now reside. So now you’ve again got this sort of larger vulnerability, and there’s a lot of security that they have, but things can go wrong ’cause they’re complicated. So the AWS outage is such a good example of that, and it shows you the reach that just that one company has in over all kinds of other things that we wouldn’t think are connected.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was a stark reminder that entire swaths of the internet depend on just a handful of tech giants. This centralization is not ideal when one of those companies has a problem, like a tiny block propping up a precarious and ever-growing tower of digital infrastructure. One vulnerability could cause it to all come tumbling down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The only other element that I wonder if we should talk about at all when we talk about the, the software side of things is, of course, like the big new player here is AI. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve got something like, you know, Claude Mythos, which has been hyped up as something that can find vulnerabilities that nobody has found in software. And I think that there is a question of as AI continues to advance, if this is a thing that seems to be good at, it seems to be good at coding, it seems to be useful for that, can it help people find more vulnerabilities? Does that add to our vulnerability on the software side? And I don’t think we know yet, but I mean, certainly to me as doom reporter guy, I’m like, that doesn’t seem ideal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, we’ve talked about the ways the internet could feasibly be taken down, whether it’s a solar storm or a software bug. What would the world look like if it really did go down for good, if we were all forced offline and had to figure out how to make it work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open one more tab, Surviving the Internet Apocalypse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The practical reality of like, oh, if the internet goes down, like we’ve talked about, it’s so much more deeply embedded in every aspect of like society and culture and our lives. What would a return to the before times actually look like? Is there any going back? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I think that, uh, in some ways it’s like we’ve done it before, we could do it again. And we have examples from history of civilizations collapsing where the whole, again, sort of supply chain of a massive area of the world fell apart. And not to be the guy that talks about Rome, um, but that is one example, I’m sorry. Uh, where, you know, you had this sort of kind of incredible amount of trade going around the Mediterranean, supply chains that really, you know, brought things from the Middle East all the way to Europe and back, and that falls apart. And places figured out how to continue to survive, and they became less reliant on large trade routes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that if the internet, which is this big connector of societies, fell apart, we would figure it out. It probably would require some reliance on figuring out how to go local. Uh, it would present some major challenges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that like it’s hard to understate the level of challenges it would create because I do think things like figuring out how to get food to the places, figuring out how to get the things that grow the food to the right places is all a major challenge and a disruption for a matter of months, even if we could ultimately circumvent that, would be an issue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I’m pretty confident we’d figure it out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you ever camping and you’re in an area where your phone doesn’t get service, really quickly you put your phone away, and you kind of forget about it, and it becomes a non-issue because it’s just not there anymore. Whether we’re talking about Doom or we’re talking about just like everyday tasks, people kind of live their lives with what’s available to them. So I think that that would be true in an internet-less world. I think it would be true in a powerless world, a world where there wasn’t electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of those would be less comfortable. All of them would be worse in certain ways. I’m not rooting for any of those. But yeah, I have kind of like good optimism in humanity’s ability to, to figure those things out, just not without suffering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am wondering, like from your perspective, like, you know, you are a tech reporter, you are much more immersed in this side of things, and I’m just wondering, you know, what struck you about this story, if anything, that I might not have thought of? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it’s funny, I, I started out reporting on the creator economy and memes and like influencers. Like That was kind of like the first jobs I had. I did have this thought of like, okay, society collapses, will influencers continue influencing? Will they just become local, you know, town criers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Will they become the person who’s like in the great market where everyone’s bartering again, where they’re like, “Everyone needs to get on this.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I did have this thought of like, hmm, I bet, you know, all these current influencers and their ring lights, they’re gonna find a way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have an upcoming episode that looks at what a post-apocalypse might actually look like. How would it be different from what we see in the films, and what would you actually need probably to survive a post-apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as far as we can tell, in historic events that resemble today’s apocalypse scenarios, some society totally fractured, massive death, whatever. Um, I just said massive death whatever, and I regret that. But, um- … you know, in real big tragic scenarios, people do not flee to their bunkers. They come together and they reform communities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there are hard skills that seem to be useful like being able to grow food seems to be very useful. But there’s an argument that we hear that the most useful thing is communication, that it’s leading people to be able to work together. And I don’t know whether an influencer is like the best skill set to lead people and bring people together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But certainly in terms of having an authoritative voice that people will listen to, that skill set might be really useful. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, hey, I can’t wait till the apocalypse when we’re all just eating berries and someone’s like, “Oh, this berry’s the best one. Believe me.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is the one. Yeah. Yeah. Here’s why I use it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. After all of this reporting, um, as the now voice of doom scenarios, in this kind of like, I don’t know, mental ranking that you have of like this is the worst thing that could happen, where does the internet going down worldwide fall in that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is not high up on the list of things that I worry about. It is an example of a black swan event, something that essentially is not in any planning, that we consider to be sort of impregnable. So I think it’s worth considering from the perspective of what if it’s not? So this one feels very solvable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It feels to me like a thing that people are thinking about to some extent, that we could take more seriously, that we should consider, but that we shouldn’t be like stressing about.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So yes, the internet going down is a possible doomsday event, but the likelihood of it happening is comparatively low compared to other apocalyptic scenarios, and if it does happen, we’ll figure out ways to survive it. That being said, Ben, as a doomsday reporter, thinks about this stuff a lot, and there are a few situations that do seriously worry him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The big four, according to him: AI, nuclear war, climate change, pandemics. But those last three are way out of my scope of a deep dive. To hear more about those scenarios, you should check out Are We Doomed? You can find it wherever you get your podcasts. We’ll link to Ben’s episode about killing the internet, and some useful reading, if you’re interested in opening even more tabs about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as usual, if you’re really that hungry for more, you can stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, but for now, let’s close all these tabs\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral and Chris Egusa. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven Lindsay is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Also, by the way, because we’re both running podcasts, uh, the fact that there is no podcast without the internet because that’s the way audio is shared- … that seems like a big problem for both of us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m, you know, I think out of habit if the internet went down, I would just be, like, alone in my closet talking into a hairbrush, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. That’s bleak.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What are the chances that the internet could go down forever? How bad for humanity would it be if it did? And what would a shift back to the before-times look like? These are the kinds of questions “doom reporter” Ben Bradford tries to answer in his new podcast, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Morgan and Ben discuss the scenarios that might lead to a long-term internet outage — from severed undersea cables to a massive solar storm. And they tackle the most pressing question of all: will influencers survive the internet apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7222381679\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guest: \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben Bradford, journalist and host of \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ben Bradford, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://pod.link/1893359212/episode/cHJ4XzE2ODU3XzAxYmFmM2NmLWU4ZWEtNDM0ZS05YTFlLTgyYzgzMjE1OGI3Yg?view=apps&sort=popularity\">We Try and Kill the Internet\u003c/a> — Ben Bradford, \u003ci>Are We Doomed?\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/amazon-explains-how-its-aws-outage-took-down-the-web/\">Amazon Explains How Its AWS Outage Took Down the Web\u003c/a> – Matt Burgess and Lily Hay Newman, \u003ci>WIRED \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/the-aws-outage-bricked-peoples-2-700-smartbeds/\">The AWS Outage Bricked People’s $2,700 Smartbeds\u003c/a> – Matthew Gault, \u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/complex-structure-supported-by-a-tiny-part\">Complex Structure Supported by a Tiny Part\u003c/a> – \u003ci>Know Your Meme \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2024/04/02/a-stealth-attack-came-close-to-compromising-the-worlds-computers\">A Stealth Attack Came Close to Compromising the World’s Computers\u003c/a> – \u003ci>The Economist\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a Tabby or a Tab Head or part of the Tab Hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us. Under our watch, every tab in the land will be closed, eventually. I mean, I have like 15 open right now. Okay, let’s get to the show\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> Okay, not to brag, but last year Close All Tabs won a pretty special award, the Media Literate Media Award from NAML. That’s the National Association for Media Literacy. According to them, we’ve helped listeners better understand the internet, which is pretty cool. Ben Bradford, a veteran public radio journalist, also won the award. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I recently talked with him, and obviously had to bring it up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, thanks so much for joining us, Ben. Um, to start off, we both received NAMLE awards at the same time, which means that our takes are always correct. We are so media literate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s exactly right. We- it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s been proven. We’re credentialed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly. I have a little plaque that says, “My takes are always correct.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben has long been fascinated by politics and history and climate and disaster, which means he spends a lot of time thinking about the end of the world. And now he’s launched a new project. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My name is Ben Bradford, and I am the creator and host of a new podcast that’s called Are We Doomed?, which is the cheery title for a show about the end of the world. And we look at practical threats to society and to humanity. We look at internet hysteria. We look at, like, our pop culture obsession with the end of the world, and try to find some hope in the darkness. And I think that we actually do that, which has been very fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Today, we’re actually doing something a little different than our usual deep dives. You see, Are We Doomed? recently explored my personal doomsday scenario. What happens if the internet goes out forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This would really suck for Close All Tabs, a show that literally revolves around the internet. It would also suck for me, someone who’s built an entire career around covering the online world. But this also goes way deeper than just a job. There are so many habits ingrained in my life that depend on internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not talking mindless scrolling. I mean daily functions, like LA earthquake Twitter\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I live in Los Angeles, so does Ben, and every time there’s even the slightest rumble afoot, I run straight to social media to check if it was indeed an earthquake. Despite its name, the concept of LA earthquake Twitter transcends a single social media platform. It’s the communal experience of everyone in Southern California going online to see if anyone else felt that rumble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Was that an earthquake? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time it’s not, but there have been times when some earthquake hobbyist on social media confirms it before any news outlet does. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The earthquake one is funny ’cause I definitely do that, and I also get… You know how people get phantom vibrations for their phone- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> where they think that their phone is buzzing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I get that for earthquakes. I don’t know if you ever get that- Yeah … where I’m like, “Man, was that an earthquake?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But, you know, how will I ever be sure if, if I can’t check Twitter? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You need it \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This isn’t a frivolous concern, okay? The entire infrastructure of modern warning systems relies on internet connection.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For minor shakes, I’ll run to LA Earthquake Twitter, but if a big one’s coming, I’ll probably get a push alert from ShakeAlert first. That’s the West Coast Earthquake Warning System. It calculates the magnitude of potential earthquakes and where they might hit, and then automatically sends alerts to that area, which trigger safety actions like slowing down trains, shutting off elevators, and turning on hospital generators, and hopefully with enough time to get people to safety.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But to do all that, ShakeAlert gathers data from a sprawling network of sensors transmitted electronically online. The algorithms that figure out if an earthquake is actually dangerous process from the cloud. And to actually send this information to people, obviously the system needs the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Internet connection is baked into every step of the process. It’s why the very concept of the internet going dark is such a terrifying doomsday event. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have become so reliant on this very complicated technology, and that happens in various ways throughout human history. I think we can safely say there has not been one as complicated, and that requires so many other things to keep running. I mean, you know, from, uh, electricity to infrastructure to software. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As a self-described doom reporter, this kept Ben up at night. LA Earthquake Twitter and the complex warning system behind it is just one example. The infrastructure of society is internet based. Our drinking water processing sites, our food supply chains, our hospital equipment, these all rely on systems that can only function with internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for his podcast, Are We Doomed?, Ben looked into it. I said we’re doing things a little differently for this one, right? Today, Ben and I are both going to take you on a deep dive as we attempt to get to the bottom of some questions you might be asking yourself right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Has the internet ever gone dark before? What kind of doomsday scenarios are we looking at here? Could we survive? And the question I was dying to ask, how likely is this really? Buckle up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s open our first tab. How important is the internet to our lives?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just like my fear of losing LA earthquake Twitter, this question feels frivolous. But like the warning system behind it, losing the internet will cut a lot deeper than you might think. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so then the question becomes, one, how reliant are we actually? What ability do we have to roll back if this thing were to leave us, and not for an inconvenient couple of hours, not for a day, but for longer? And then two, is there a way for that to happen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So you actually looked at a real world, um, case study of this that took place in northern Arizona in 2015. What happened there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So 2015, the internet went out in Flagstaff and surrounding areas, and it is an interesting case study because of just how many things suddenly didn’t work and what people could figure out how to do and what they couldn’t figure out how to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Here’s an excerpt from this episode of Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Northern Arizona, TV screens cut out. ATMs broke down. Credit card readers, gone. Cell phone service, gone. 911, jammed. Banks, courthouses, bars, you name it, in disarray\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What had happened was this big internet cable that delivers internet to that area of Arizona had been cut by copper thieves probably looking for copper wire. And so it’s sort of a small vulnerability. The cable’s just out there. It stretches hundreds of miles. You go, you saw in, you take the copper, and it has this really dramatic effect.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From emergency services to sewer systems, it became clear that this one cable was foundational to the infrastructure that kept northern Arizona going. One reporter called it the area’s digital umbilical cord. This outage only lasted half a day and affected a 100-mile stretch of communities. It makes me wonder, what if the internet went down for the whole world, and it lasted much longer, even forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, but the situation in Arizona happened over 10 years ago. Surely society as a whole has learned from that experience and developed better backup plans since then, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So this is one of the questions that we looked at and didn’t thrill me because I don’t think that I loved the answers to it. As we embrace the internet more as a fundamental technology, and we build more things on top of it, we, we do simply have less backups. And so I remember talking to a friend of mine, I just pinged him while I was working on a story. Um, he’s the medical director in an emergency department at a major hospital, and I said, “Hey, if the internet went down, and not for a day, but for a while, what would it mean for you?” And he said, “We’d be out of luck.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s how we submit prescriptions. That is how we look up patients. That’s how we transfer them between places.” And so it’s funny because hospitals have backup generators, but they don’t have a backup internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m thinking of that scene in The Pit when, uh, the hospital systems go down because of a cyber attack and- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> all these doctors have to suddenly go back to clipboards and charting by hand and, like, reading manual, uh, test results. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from The Pitt]:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is how we rolled when I was a resident. Was that in the 1900s? Yeah, when charts were written by candlelight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The part of it that I think is sort of fascinating is just how expansive that question becomes. Things that surprised me are, like, the degree to which our water treatment centers rely on network connectivity. There are reports that have been written, federal government inspector general reports or GAO reports, that look at the vulnerability of water treatment centers to cyber attacks, for instance, and that’s not great.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, you would prefer that your water not be hacked, and I don’t know that we wanna create a system where we rely on our water where it’s vulnerable to hacking. Like, that’s sort of a strange thing. Uh- Well, who thought? Totally, and then it becomes, okay, in our sort of galaxy brain scenario where the whole internet goes down or this technology just becomes unfeasible, it’s like, yeah, your drinking water is degraded, if available at all, and that’s pretty wild. And it depends on the area that you’re in, and there’s some nuance to that, but it shows the extent to what we’re looking at here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So it seems like a lot of these scenarios that we’ve talked about, the fictional one in The Pit or, you know- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the one in Arizona, like, all these scenarios have an end date or an end time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, they will come to an end and that’s comforting. But in the event that the whole world’s internet does go dark, I mean, what would happen? Like, genuinely, would we die without the internet? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I can’t predict the- … the future or the hypothetical of it, but I will say that I think it would be massively disruptive for a longer amount of time than we might think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When it comes to survival, the main questions are over food and water. Our food system is incredibly reliant on the internet. Crops don’t rely on the internet to grow, but the cargo shipping systems that get that food into our grocery stores do, and these systems also send necessary supplies to the farms that grow our food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these systems rely on the internet and our ability to communicate through it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And while I am confident in humanity’s resilience and cleverness in being able to figure out workarounds, I think that the massive scale of the disruption, I mean, what it would do just to basically to money, you know, your stock market crashes, um, people can’t get access to their money. How often are you looking at paper bills, and what would those do for you in that world where so many other aspects of the financial system are down? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You start to get into this real hard-to-imagine world, right? But if you start kind of taking those individual pieces of hospitals and water treatment centers and the supply chain, and you add it all together, you get something that looks pretty dystopian and a lot like an apocalypse movie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that is, I think, what you’re dealing with in the near term if the internet goes down and doesn’t come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, I’m gonna be honest, it’s really hard to not, like, hear this and then, want to, I don’t know, buy baby goat to move to Ohi, which is- Right. Yeah … like the furthest, most rural place I can imagine. Like- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Before Ben and I get you all worked up into a panic, take a breath. Humanity survived for thousands of years before the internet, and if we had to, we could do it again, even if I personally would really rather not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re gonna dive into these offline doomsday scenarios after a quick break, but first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, could the internet really go down for good?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab. Could the internet go dark forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I posed this question to Ben, and if it’s any small comfort, he says it’s actually a lot harder to make that happen than you might think, and that’s because of the way this physical infrastructure is built. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know how we call it the World Wide Web? The phrase is actually kind of literal. There are these undersea cables that span all across the globe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is this sort of spider web connecting all the different continents in different ways, and the internet runs through all of them. If you cut one, the software of the internet figures out how to reroute the information. So when you think about Northern Arizona, that happens to be one area where there was sort of a choke point, one sort of big pipe connecting the internet to that region, and there are other places like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We saw several years ago a volcanic eruption in the ocean, uh, near Tonga. An undersea volcano blew through the ocean’s floor. Smoke and ash erupted into the sky. The force of the explosion unleashed a devastating tsunami, and that explosion also ripped through the underwater cable that delivers internet to Tonga.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Without communication, other countries struggled to provide relief. Tongans couldn’t access outside money. Much of the nation relies on remittances from family off the islands. Those stopped. In that case, it was a natural disaster that cut off Tonga from the internet. But people do attack undersea cables, and it’s hard to prove sabotage, although countries are constantly accusing each other, because the cables are unprotected, innocent, perfect for attack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was another sort of look at just how disruptive this kind of thing can be. So internet cables being severed can be a problem, but because the internet is decentralized and because the software is designed to find where it’s not working and then reroute, it’s generally not that big of a problem. One pipe goes down, and you can repair it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so Tonga was sort of like the worst-case scenario of that, and even then, the pipe gets repaired relatively quickly, and there are some workarounds you can put in place in the meantime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the Cold War, technologists started thinking about how to build a telecommunication system that could survive nuclear war.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Legend goes that the internet was built off of that, and so that’s that sort of decentralized network. One part goes down, and you imagine a spiderweb with, like, electricity running through it. Electricity runs through all the spiderweb, but one little tendril of spiderweb gets severed, and the electricity still courses through the rest of it, and that’s essentially how information flows through the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So even if you were to go and sever a lot of the undersea cables, it would be a problem. It would create slowdowns, but any places that the pipes were still running to would still work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That is comforting, simply cutting the cables connecting our world wouldn’t instantly doom us. But there is another theory of an event that could fry our internet, solar storms.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Solar storms are sudden bursts of energy from the sun with enough radiation that could affect our planet’s electrical systems. This has actually already happened on Earth in 1859. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you go back to the 1850s, the biggest technology of the day was the telegraph, and there was this event– it’s called the Carrington Event.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of a sudden, around the world, telegraph machines start going crazy. Telegraph stations in some cases are lighting on fire because they’re overloading. People are unplugging their telegraphs, and the telegraphs are still chattering away, and they don’t know what’s happening, right? They think they’re possessed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The night sky lit up like it was daytime. Some people thought it was daytime, and so they went to church. Uh, it was a solar storm. It was the biggest solar storm that we’ve had in recorded history \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And since 1859, we have become much more reliant on electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There are some questions about if we were to be hit with an equivalent event to that one back when there was telegraph, how well the internet would stand up. Like that seems to me like the best thing to blow out the hardware of the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But we have a government office called the Space Weather Center. It’s part of the, uh, National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration. You have utilities that are starting to take that threat more seriously. So you have some work being done, and I think the hope would be that by the time we have another one of those events, that we’re prepared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So from what you’ve been telling me, it sounds like the internet is actually a lot more resilient than you might think, than the, the doomsday people might be worried about. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I feel really good about it. The two things that I worry about are, um, I think that there are some software vulnerabilities. There’s a famous, uh, web comic, uh, from XKCD.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s, it’s Randall Munroe, who’s a former NASA rocket scientist, and just is, just absolutely brilliant, and he does these web comics. And there’s a very famous one that he does about the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s titled Dependency. So this image shows a drawing of a giant intricate tower of blocks stacked in increasingly complicated ways as you move toward the top. Above it, there’s text that says, “All modern digital infrastructure.” This is like Jenga from hell. At the bottom is a comically thin block holding up all the others. The caption says, “A project some random person in Nebraska has been thanklessly maintaining since 2003.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The artist posted Dependency in 2020, and it’s become a meme among software engineers who edit the tower higher and higher with even more precarious blocks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, there’s this one edit that has the blocks off-kilter, balanced on a lever labeled AI. The tiny block propping up the whole tower is labeled unpaid open source developers, while an angry bird flies toward the structure, ready to topple it over. That one is labeled whatever Microsoft is doing. The point is the internet as we know it is this tower, cobbled together, perpetually built upon by hobbyists doing it for free and companies that have their own agenda.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so if people were to identify those particular things, you could potentially knock them out and have unforeseen outages. Now, would that outage create, you know, the endless lack of internet? It seems like probably not. And it seems like people are clever and people are really good at hacking things in. But that’s one of the other vulnerabilities that we saw. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it seems like it doesn’t necessarily need to be some kind of bad actor going after that one thing a guy built in his basement in 2003 to take down huge parts of the internet. You know, I’m thinking of the AWS outage last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, for listeners, AWS, or Amazon Web Services, it’s the cloud computing platform that pretty much everyone uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the backbone of the internet. Last year, a DNS error brought it all down. DNS, domain name system. It’s the way the internet translates names to numbers, like translating the human language into one computers can understand. Some call DNS the phone book of the internet. Imagine all the contacts in your phone get wiped out, but your whole job is making calls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re the cog that keeps your whole machine running. So without your phone book, everything comes grinding to a halt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This led to a cascading comedy of errors that brought down, like, entire chunks of the internet. Like Ring cameras were down, online banking services went dark, my Roomba wouldn’t turn on because it couldn’t- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Your Roomba? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My Roomba actually went down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, obviously you can’t vacuum if you can’t use the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No. Well, even worse, it kept turning on and then getting lost, and then trying to get back to its dock, but it couldn’t find anything, and I was like, “Stop turning on.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’d you do? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I literally turned it upside down like a bug. Oh my God. It was so annoying. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, people’s smart beds went down and suddenly changed to, like, 100 degrees overnight, or it s- automatically set alarms off- Mm-hmm … in the middle of the night. It, it’s like parts of society just kind of came to a halt because of this one bug.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People have apartments they can’t get into, uh- Literally … unless there’s network connectivity. It… Literally, it’s like our whole lives are, like, smart devices now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the event of a real doomsday scenario, what does last year’s AWS outage tell us about society’s ability to function without even parts of the internet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, I think that that, again, is one of those examples that shows two sides of what we’re talking about here. It shows the level of disruption, and it also shows some of those pain points. Experts worry about the centralization of the internet because that becomes a potential vulnerability where one company goes down, one company has a bug like Amazon, and all of a sudden nothing works.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, that has only continued to build because 10, 15 years ago, if you were starting a business and it related in any way to the internet, you would buy your own servers, and you would usually host your own servers. But companies began to offer cloud services, and only a few companies are the big ones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AWS, Google has one, Oracle has one, and that is where almost all businesses now reside. So now you’ve again got this sort of larger vulnerability, and there’s a lot of security that they have, but things can go wrong ’cause they’re complicated. So the AWS outage is such a good example of that, and it shows you the reach that just that one company has in over all kinds of other things that we wouldn’t think are connected.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was a stark reminder that entire swaths of the internet depend on just a handful of tech giants. This centralization is not ideal when one of those companies has a problem, like a tiny block propping up a precarious and ever-growing tower of digital infrastructure. One vulnerability could cause it to all come tumbling down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The only other element that I wonder if we should talk about at all when we talk about the, the software side of things is, of course, like the big new player here is AI. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve got something like, you know, Claude Mythos, which has been hyped up as something that can find vulnerabilities that nobody has found in software. And I think that there is a question of as AI continues to advance, if this is a thing that seems to be good at, it seems to be good at coding, it seems to be useful for that, can it help people find more vulnerabilities? Does that add to our vulnerability on the software side? And I don’t think we know yet, but I mean, certainly to me as doom reporter guy, I’m like, that doesn’t seem ideal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, we’ve talked about the ways the internet could feasibly be taken down, whether it’s a solar storm or a software bug. What would the world look like if it really did go down for good, if we were all forced offline and had to figure out how to make it work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open one more tab, Surviving the Internet Apocalypse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The practical reality of like, oh, if the internet goes down, like we’ve talked about, it’s so much more deeply embedded in every aspect of like society and culture and our lives. What would a return to the before times actually look like? Is there any going back? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I think that, uh, in some ways it’s like we’ve done it before, we could do it again. And we have examples from history of civilizations collapsing where the whole, again, sort of supply chain of a massive area of the world fell apart. And not to be the guy that talks about Rome, um, but that is one example, I’m sorry. Uh, where, you know, you had this sort of kind of incredible amount of trade going around the Mediterranean, supply chains that really, you know, brought things from the Middle East all the way to Europe and back, and that falls apart. And places figured out how to continue to survive, and they became less reliant on large trade routes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that if the internet, which is this big connector of societies, fell apart, we would figure it out. It probably would require some reliance on figuring out how to go local. Uh, it would present some major challenges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that like it’s hard to understate the level of challenges it would create because I do think things like figuring out how to get food to the places, figuring out how to get the things that grow the food to the right places is all a major challenge and a disruption for a matter of months, even if we could ultimately circumvent that, would be an issue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I’m pretty confident we’d figure it out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you ever camping and you’re in an area where your phone doesn’t get service, really quickly you put your phone away, and you kind of forget about it, and it becomes a non-issue because it’s just not there anymore. Whether we’re talking about Doom or we’re talking about just like everyday tasks, people kind of live their lives with what’s available to them. So I think that that would be true in an internet-less world. I think it would be true in a powerless world, a world where there wasn’t electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of those would be less comfortable. All of them would be worse in certain ways. I’m not rooting for any of those. But yeah, I have kind of like good optimism in humanity’s ability to, to figure those things out, just not without suffering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am wondering, like from your perspective, like, you know, you are a tech reporter, you are much more immersed in this side of things, and I’m just wondering, you know, what struck you about this story, if anything, that I might not have thought of? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it’s funny, I, I started out reporting on the creator economy and memes and like influencers. Like That was kind of like the first jobs I had. I did have this thought of like, okay, society collapses, will influencers continue influencing? Will they just become local, you know, town criers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Will they become the person who’s like in the great market where everyone’s bartering again, where they’re like, “Everyone needs to get on this.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I did have this thought of like, hmm, I bet, you know, all these current influencers and their ring lights, they’re gonna find a way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have an upcoming episode that looks at what a post-apocalypse might actually look like. How would it be different from what we see in the films, and what would you actually need probably to survive a post-apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as far as we can tell, in historic events that resemble today’s apocalypse scenarios, some society totally fractured, massive death, whatever. Um, I just said massive death whatever, and I regret that. But, um- … you know, in real big tragic scenarios, people do not flee to their bunkers. They come together and they reform communities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there are hard skills that seem to be useful like being able to grow food seems to be very useful. But there’s an argument that we hear that the most useful thing is communication, that it’s leading people to be able to work together. And I don’t know whether an influencer is like the best skill set to lead people and bring people together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But certainly in terms of having an authoritative voice that people will listen to, that skill set might be really useful. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, hey, I can’t wait till the apocalypse when we’re all just eating berries and someone’s like, “Oh, this berry’s the best one. Believe me.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is the one. Yeah. Yeah. Here’s why I use it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. After all of this reporting, um, as the now voice of doom scenarios, in this kind of like, I don’t know, mental ranking that you have of like this is the worst thing that could happen, where does the internet going down worldwide fall in that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is not high up on the list of things that I worry about. It is an example of a black swan event, something that essentially is not in any planning, that we consider to be sort of impregnable. So I think it’s worth considering from the perspective of what if it’s not? So this one feels very solvable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It feels to me like a thing that people are thinking about to some extent, that we could take more seriously, that we should consider, but that we shouldn’t be like stressing about.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So yes, the internet going down is a possible doomsday event, but the likelihood of it happening is comparatively low compared to other apocalyptic scenarios, and if it does happen, we’ll figure out ways to survive it. That being said, Ben, as a doomsday reporter, thinks about this stuff a lot, and there are a few situations that do seriously worry him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The big four, according to him: AI, nuclear war, climate change, pandemics. But those last three are way out of my scope of a deep dive. To hear more about those scenarios, you should check out Are We Doomed? You can find it wherever you get your podcasts. We’ll link to Ben’s episode about killing the internet, and some useful reading, if you’re interested in opening even more tabs about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as usual, if you’re really that hungry for more, you can stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, but for now, let’s close all these tabs\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral and Chris Egusa. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven Lindsay is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Also, by the way, because we’re both running podcasts, uh, the fact that there is no podcast without the internet because that’s the way audio is shared- … that seems like a big problem for both of us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m, you know, I think out of habit if the internet went down, I would just be, like, alone in my closet talking into a hairbrush, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. That’s bleak.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "get-the-flock-out-the-heated-debate-over-license-plate-readers",
"title": "'Get The Flock Out': The Fight Over License-Plate Readers Heats Up",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock Safety’s license plate readers have become a flashpoint for a debate across the country. On one side: law enforcement and their supporters, who say the cameras reduce crime and improve public safety. On the other: residents and advocates worried about a creeping surveillance state and the myriad security issues Flock has already been exposed for.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan talks to Bay Area reporters Roselyn Romero and Riley Cooke about the fight over Flock spreading throughout the region, what we still don’t know about how Flock’s data is used and how some residents are finding creative ways to push back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6560783367\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/author/roselyn-romero/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Roselyn Romero\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, public safety journalist at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Oaklandside \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.paloaltoonline.com/author/rcookeembarcaderopublishing-com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riley Cooke\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Palo Alto Weekly \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB0gr7Fh6lY\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We Hacked Flock Safety Cameras in under 30 Seconds \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Benn Jordan, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Youtube \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://sanjosespotlight.com/palo-alto-license-plate-data-searched-by-hundreds-of-out-of-state-agencies/\">Palo Alto license plate data searched by hundreds of out-of-state agencies\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Riley Cooke, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>Palo Alto Weekly\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/2026/05/28/flock-training-police-city-councils-webinar/\">Flock is quietly training Bay Area police to sway city leaders to buy surveillance tech\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Roselyn Romero, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>The Oaklandside \u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/flock-exposed-its-ai-powered-cameras-to-the-internet-we-tracked-ourselves/\">Flock Exposed Its AI-Powered Cameras to the Internet. We Tracked Ourselves\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jason Koebler, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://knock-la.com/does-flock-safety-keep-women-safe/\">Does Flock Safety Keep Women Safe?\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jayme Kusyk, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Knock LA\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://ij.org/police-have-reportedly-used-license-plate-readers-to-stalk-romantic-interests-at-least-14-times-in-recent-years/\">Police Have Reportedly Used License Plate Readers to Stalk Romantic Interests at Least 21 Times in Recent Years \u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci> —\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Christopher Ingraham, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Institute for Justice\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://prospect.org/2026/05/21/home-depot-lowes-downplay-customer-surveillance-threats-flock-cameras-immigration/\">Home Depot and Lowe’s Downplay Customer Surveillance Threats\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Whitney Curry Wimbish, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>The American Prospect\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.whro.org/business-growth/2026-01-20/flock-cameras-in-hampton-roads-surveil-black-communities-more-intensely-than-white-ones-cnu-study-says\">Flock cameras in Hampton Roads surveil Black communities more intensely than white ones, CNU study says\u003c/a> — Toby Cox, \u003ci>WHRO\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/ice-taps-into-nationwide-ai-enabled-camera-network-data-shows/\">ICE Taps into Nationwide AI-Enabled Camera Network, Data Shows\u003c/a> — Jason Koebler & Joseph Cox, \u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/2026/04/24/who-is-paint-bombing-oaklands-flock-cameras/\">Who is paint bombing Oakland’s Flock cameras?\u003c/a> — Eli Wolfe, \u003ci>The Oaklandside\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bloodinthemachine.com/p/across-the-us-people-are-dismantling\">Across the US, people are dismantling and destroying Flock surveillance cameras\u003c/a> — Brian Merchant, \u003ci>Blood In The Machine\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/sf-car-break-in-data-18639763.php\">Has S.F. cracked how to fix the car break-in crisis? Here’s what is driving the decline\u003c/a> — Rachel Swan, \u003ci>San Francisco Chronicle \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bay Area Resident: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Having Flock cameras will not keep us safe. These cameras will go up in the neighborhoods where people of color live and we can be damn sure that this information will be taken by the feds and shared with ICE. They do what they want. So don’t believe anybody who says this information is private and secure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In April, Bay Area residents crowded into the downtown Oakland Administration building. It was supposed to be a routine budget meeting for the Alameda County Board of Supervisors. But it was unusually packed, thanks to one agenda item: approving a contract extension for Flock Safety cameras. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This would allow the controversial surveillance tech company to continue running its network of AI-powered license plate readers throughout the county — including unincorporated areas outside of cities like Oakland and Berkeley. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The contract expired last summer. If approved, the extension would buy another three months of Flock surveillance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The room was packed with residents, from Oakland to Castro Valley. Even more attended virtually to give comments. More than a hundred residents spoke during the meeting. Close All Tabs producer, Maya Cueva, was on the scene. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Narayan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Good evening. I urge you to reject Flock’s $854,000 contract extension. This isn’t a camera system, it’s a mass surveillance network that will track every single one of us, making a searchable database that tracks our movements. You guys say you care about immigrant communities, but this system puts them directly in danger. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock’s license plate readers have become a flashpoint for a debate across the country — not just in the Bay Area. On one side: law enforcement and their supporters, who say the cameras reduce crime and improve public safety. On the other: residents and advocates who are concerned about a creeping surveillance state, an erosion of the right to privacy, and the myriad security issues Flock has already been exposed for. Alameda County residents of all ages have been fighting against Flock in their neighborhoods for a while. And some aren’t even able to vote yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Narayan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, my name’s Narayan. I’m 17. I go by he/him pronouns, and I’m from East Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kaylyn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, my names Kaylyn. I’m 17 years old, and I live in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tyson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Tyson, I’m 18, he/him pronouns, and I live in Albany. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Narayan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m here to stop the implementation and extending of a Flock contract in my county. Flock is a multi-billion dollar corporation that is focused on hyper surveillance of people, and we’ve already seen that it is in the wrong hands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three years ago, Alameda County leaders approved a contract to install 100 plate readers throughout the county. Berkeley has just over 30, and Oakland recently approved a $2 million contract for nearly 300 more cameras in the city. Other residents have been speaking out about the issue for years now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manny: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve been fighting Flock since 2023, but now it’s a lot more in the cultural zeitgeist. A lot of people have become a lot aware of the surveillance systems that are being used to surveil them, to watch and kidnap their community members. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ramesh Sridharan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We don’t want mass surveillance. We should be investing in communities. We should be spending our money on that as opposed to programs like Flock, which contribute to a surveillance state and have no evidence of actually reducing crime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But some residents spoke in support of extending Flock’s contract. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert Battinich: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was raised in San Leandro for 25 years. I own property in San Leandro and I’ve been robbed 24 times. Recently, they put Flock cameras in San Leandro, and it seems to be that they haven’t been breaking in. So, please vote “yes” on renewing the contract with the Flock cameras. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The board of supervisors kept calling for decorum when attendees clapped for anti-Flock speakers. So one resident used his allotted time to scold the board. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ralph Brown: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it seems like a majority of you are just ready to reject the overwhelming majority of your residents who are telling you to vote “no” on this contract, not spend $300,000 plus more dollars to extend this contract and basically just say- tell us to go fuck ourselves, is what I’m hearing from you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The meeting lasted hours — and after all that, the board of supervisors voted 3-2 in favor of extending the contract. Protests broke out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Protesters outside of budget meeting]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The backlash we’re seeing against Flock in Alameda County is part of a bigger nationwide fight against normalizing mass surveillance. Flock vandalism is up across the country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @wwmtnews on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Kalamazoo County Sheriff’s Office says someone intentionally cut down a Flock license plate reader camera along D Avenue in Cooper Township. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @WHAS11News on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Auburn normally has 12 in the city, now they’re down two. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @tmj4 on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Take a close look at this automatic license plate reading camera, and you’ll notice gold paint covering the lens. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People have put stickers over the cameras’ lenses, covered them with trash bags, paintbombed entire devices, and joked online about pointing lasers at the cameras to destroy the sensors. In Oregon, someone cut down six poles holding Flock cameras, leaving a note that said, quote, “Hahaha get wrecked you surveilling fucks.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @KEZI9News on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No arrests have been made in either jurisdiction, but this is considered criminal mischief. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s local news station KEZI 9, which actually broadcasted the uncensored note. But aside from resorting to “criminal mischief,” how else are people fighting the installation of these cameras in their neighborhoods? Today, we’re digging into the heated debate around Flock cameras: what exactly they’re doing with your data and why this might matter more than you think. Ready? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Automated license plate readers, or ALPRs, have been rapidly rolled out by cities and communities around the country, with Flock Safety’s tech at the lead. Before we get any deeper into this, we need to talk about what Flock actually is — and how it was adopted so quickly. Let’s open a new tab: Why is Flock so controversial? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into the origin story. So, Flock Safety is based in Atlanta, Georgia. It operates a whole host of surveillance devices: cameras, drones, and, importantly, for this story, ALPRs. Back in 2017, this Georgia Tech alum, Garrett Langley, noticed the uptake in break-ins around his Atlanta neighborhood. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Police told him that grainy surveillance camera footage was actually unhelpful, and what they really needed to find perpetrators were license plates. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, Garrett called up two of his college buddies. Together, they worked on a prototype camera that could record and share what he called “evidence,” not just footage. Here he is speaking to Forbes last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Garrett’s interview with @Forbes on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s pretty wild. At the end of ’17, we were sitting at my dining room table in Atlanta, building cameras by hand. And now, today, we’re in a roughly 100,000 square foot facility building cameras, building trailers, building drones — all right here in Georgia, which is pretty fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Fun” is certainly one way to put it. This entrepreneurial, neighborly concern has grown into an operation of at least 90,000 cameras nationwide, scanning over 20 billion license plates per month. Over 1,000 private businesses have also installed the cameras, adding to Flock’s massive surveillance database. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Oakland, the push for installing Flock’s ALPRs was fueled by local frustration over BIP-ing — you know, breaking into a parked car and looting whatever’s inside. Here’s Roselyn Romero, a reporter for the independent local news outlet, The Oaklandside. She’s been covering Flock Safety cameras for the region. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BIP-ing, or car break-ins, were also understandably making a lot of residents angry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The city took action around 2024. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Oakland Police Department eventually signed a contract with Flock Safety for cameras to be installed throughout the city, primarily on freeway entrances and exits. And right now, today, there are 293 Flock cameras in Oakland — specifically, automated license plate readers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock’s ALPRs go way further than the standard traffic cam that tickets drivers for speeding. The cameras automatically capture the license plate of every car that drives by — as well as 6 to 12 images of other identifying information. All of this is used to create what Flock calls: a vehicle fingerprint. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The make and the model of that vehicle, if there is a scrape on the bumper, or if there are bumper stickers on the car — Flock keeps a database of all of that information of every car that passes by the ALPRs. And that database can be used by the law enforcement agencies that contract with Flock to investigate crimes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock will send officers alerts when a camera captures a vehicle that’s been marked stolen or wanted. Or, the police can search the database to trace a specific vehicle’s movements across the country. Car break-ins in San Francisco have plummeted since 2023. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But whether Flock has any part in that is dubious. The city started cracking down on car break-ins long before it adopted Flock cameras. Still, supporters say that Flock is necessary to prevent crime and catch those who do it. Now, the company says its devices are not equipped to track individual people — but recent expansions have residents concerned. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock also has cameras that are called pan, tilt, and zoom cameras. Those cameras, which are currently being used by the Alameda County Sheriff’s Office, can be used to track pedestrians in addition to vehicles. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of the data collected by Flock cameras around the country is shared and stored in a massive aggregated database, which can be accessed by anyone in the network. That means that police in Texas can hunt a woman who travels out of state for an abortion, or that ICE agents can ask local police in Illinois to track undocumented families. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Both of these scenarios are real. They’ve already happened. Privacy activists and civil liberties groups are especially worried. Given the Trump administration’s recent immigration crackdown. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are scared — even putting Flock cameras aside, many immigrants are afraid of immigration enforcement knocking on their doors. We’re hearing a lot of newly arrived immigrants, refugee and asylum seekers, and other vulnerable populations say that they don’t even want to go outside anymore. They don’t even want to go grocery shopping or send their children to school because they’re afraid of ICE coming in and taking them away from their families. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve been seeing reports of law enforcement agencies and police departments in places outside of California that have shared data with Border Patrol, with U.S. Customs and Immigration Enforcement, and other federal law enforcement agencies that deal with deporting people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so a lot of people are understandably afraid. And really concerned about, well, if this technology is continued here in Alameda County, who’s to say that that data is gonna end up in the wrong hands? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A big part of the concern is around data privacy. Flock says it deletes all the information after 30 days. But the company isn’t very transparent about how they handle all of this data. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There have been a lot of concerns from community members I’ve interviewed who say, you know, even if this data is stored in this database for 30 days, what happens after those 30 days? There have just been a whole host of concerns about the type of data that is stored, for how long it’s stored, and who has access to that data before and after it’s retained. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock also says all of this data, and their camera feeds, are encrypted. These assurances fall flat, though. Around the U.S., amateur hackers have been able to get around the company’s security systems. Tech YouTuber Benn Jordan explained how he did it in a video posted last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You may remember me from this video, where I told you about 40,000 of these things that your tax dollars pay for that are tracking your every move and repurposing data collected about you every time that you drive past them. Upon further investigation, it turns out that there are over 80,000 of them — and, um, we got some, and we hacked them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the help of a cybersecurity expert, Benn was able to hack Flock safety cameras in a whopping 30 seconds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First thing you’re going to want to do is go ahead and press the button to turn on that police camera. Then press the button on the back a number of times I can’t disclose in this video. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There she is: the Flock wireless access point. Go on and connect. Send a command to enable ADB. Connect. And now you can connect to the Flock Safety device and access its data. Or install whatever the hell you want on it. Have fun! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Apparently, hacking a Flock camera really is that easy. At least, it was when that video was published. And once you’re in, there’s a lot you can do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can clone or decompile the apps. You could send the video stream data to a remote server. You could use it as a botnet client for malware. You could have it capture Wi-Fi handshake credentials and do middleman or honeypot attacks — or replace or modify captured footage or images. And if that is the case, this could bring into question the integrity of the data being used as admissible evidence in court, like, in general. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When these cameras can be hacked and used to spy on people or watch kids, watch everyday people, it really makes you think: how comfortable are we with this type of mass surveillance in our communities? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a follow-up video, Benn showed how easy it was to find the control panels for Flock’s cameras. 404 Media confirmed that at least 60 of Flock’s Condor cameras — the ones that can pan, zoom, and tilt — were left unsecured on the open internet. That means that the live streams and administrator panels could be accessed by anyone with the right link — no login credentials needed. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the panels, anyone could download 30 days of archive footage, manually control the cameras, and run diagnostics. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, if Flock cameras can be easily hacked or are left totally unsecured, what does it mean for the troves of data? All the photos, the live feeds, the vehicle fingerprints that are stored on Flock’s cloud servers — how is this data being used, authorized or not? Who can access it? That’s a new tab: How is Flock being misused? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There have been a lot of red flags raised by privacy experts and technology experts who say that Flock doesn’t have enough data privacy safeguards to protect itself from liability, as well as protect community members who may be vulnerable to civil immigration enforcement, or enforcement as it relates to seeking abortions or reproductive health care in states where it’s illegal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There have been reports of law enforcement using Flock data for both of these purposes — as well as more… personal uses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve seen reports from other parts of the country where police officers have used Flock’s database to track down their ex-girlfriends and stalk them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Wisconsin cop used Flock to stalk his ex-girlfriend and her partner. He submitted 179 database searches for their license plates. In fact, multiple officers have been accused of using Flock’s database to stalk romantic interests — there are at least 21 reported incidents of this in recent years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, even though we have Flock and law enforcement saying one thing about Flock cameras’ original intent and purpose, there’s always the potential for something to happen where this technology is used beyond its original intent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s all assuming that technology is working correctly. What if Flock’s vehicle fingerprint is wrong? Just a few months ago, police stopped a 62-year-old woman in Oakland who was driving to her job at a nursing home. Flock had connected her plates to a “serious crime.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, she exited the vehicle with her hands up, her car registration was in her hand, and she saw these sheriff’s deputies pointing their guns at her — and she was really confused. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, eventually the sheriff’s deputies told her, “Oh, you might not be the suspect we’re looking for because the license plate reader tracked down your license plate. And we essentially connected your license plate number to a crime that had been committed not that long ago.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What the woman didn’t know was that her plates had been stolen, and replaced with the ones associated with the crime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She came to the realization, “I’m being treated like I’m a violent criminal.” That could have gone so much worse than it did, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But here’s the thing: Flock flagged a black Honda Civic. This woman drove a silver car. Flock’s “vehicle fingerprint” is supposed to be holistic, taking into account way more details about a car than just its license plates. Were these other details checked before officers made the stop? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It opens up this scary question of: can this happen to me? Can this happen to someone I love, someone I know — completely unsuspecting — who may have had their license plate stolen?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And here’s another issue with this technology: racial bias. Black and Brown communities are already more likely to be overpoliced and are disproportionately targeted for traffic stops. The existing bias is evident in Flock’s search records — law enforcement officials still use racist and derogatory language when they search through Flock’s ALPR database. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as one study showed, Flock Safety cameras have been found to surveil predominantly Black communities more intensely than white ones. In Virginia’s Hampton Roads area, neighborhoods where at least 50% of residents are Black have four times the number of Flock cameras as majority-white neighborhoods. One of the highest concentrations of cameras is around the only HBCU in the area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In neighborhoods where Black and Brown people are already overly policed, overly surveilled, and overly criminalized, these cameras can play a big role in terms of the types of enforcement actions police take against these communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, the company has been long-resistant to efforts to track and log its devices, like in the case of a project called DeFlock. It’s an open-source, community-run tool that identifies and maps the locations of Flock’s cameras. Flock CEO and Co-Founder Garrett Langley is not a fan. Here he is speaking to Forbes again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Garrett’s interview with @Forbes on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, there’s terroristic organizations like DeFlock, whose primary motivation is chaos. They are closer to Antifa than they are anything else. And that, I think, is unfortunate — because we don’t want chaos, or I don’t want chaos. I like law and order, I like a society that has a bedrock of safety. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That interview is from September of last year. A few months later, he sent an unsolicited email to all Flock law enforcement clients. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in that email, the CEO attacked activist groups who were against Flock. He said that they wanted to normalize lawlessness and let murderers go free. The CEO also called these activists, quote, “terrorists.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This prompted the city of Staunton, Virginia, as well as several others, to officially terminate their contracts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in a press release, the police chief of Staunton, Virginia, basically was like, “We will not tolerate this type of rhetoric.” They said, quote, “The city of Staunton wants to make it clear that the Flock Safety CEO’s narrative does not reflect the city’s values.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Langley’s comments also came amid intense debate over local police sharing Flock data with ICE, which is a violation of city policy in some places. Altogether, it was a PR disaster. As of March, at least 30 localities have canceled their contracts with Flock, or deactivated the ALPRs. The city of Dayton, Ohio is still deciding whether to turn off their cameras — so, while they deliberate, they covered them up with trash bags. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite all the vocal opposition, Flock has a lot of support from businesses looking to improve public safety around their buildings — whether it’s private companies trying to protect employees in downtown corporate offices, or mom-and-pop shops trying to protect their storefronts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock Safety cameras have been used by many business leaders and commercial districts throughout the Bay Area to address crime, prevent crime, track down people who may have broken into restaurants, vandalized businesses. So there’s just been a lot of support from large corporations, in addition to local business leaders, who argue that Flock cameras have actually been a really good thing for business, and for the safety of their employees, and customers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But residents are becoming more vocal about their distrust in Flock — in part, because it’s unclear who exactly has access to Flock’s data once it’s collected. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who’s to say that these law enforcement agencies from other states can also use data from California law enforcement agencies? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How far is this data being shared? Is Flock breaking local laws? One reporter in Palo Alto uncovered a slew of Flock search requests that violated the city’s own policies. We’re getting into that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Okay. After the break, Flock’s data breach. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re back. Let’s open a new tab: The Palo Alto Flock scandal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People were just as fired up about a pickleball debate a couple of weeks ago in Palo Alto — so there are certain issues that definitely get people to turn out, whether it’s converting a pickleball court or, you know, cameras that are watching your every move when you’re moving about the city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riley Cooke is a City Hall reporter at Palo Alto Weekly. Earlier this year, a publication in nearby Mountain View had discovered that the city’s Flock data had been accessed by a slew of outside entities. Riley wanted to find out if the same thing was happening in Palo Alto. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what I did is I filed a records request for these search audits that Flock and the police department maintain. So, every time a search is conducted, whether by a local officer or by an out-of-state agency, or outside agency at all into Palo Alto — that’s logged in a giant spreadsheet with the time, the date, and the reason for the search. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The request was approved, but at first, the police chief didn’t hand over the specific documents that Riley was looking for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I reopened the request and said, “Hey, I actually want these spreadsheets.” And eventually they gave them to me in March. And my editor was- he was out on some, like, coffee chat with a source, and so I was blowing up his texts, like, “We got the ALPR records, we’ve got them.” And it’s thousands and thousands of pages that detail every single search: the time, the date, who conducted it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The search records revealed that police departments from all over the country were also searching Palo Alto’s Flock data, without the permission of the city, or the Palo Alto Police Department. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The police department told me that they didn’t actually access any of the data or download it, but Palo Alto’s cameras still appeared in search results from, you know, Mississippi, Illinois — basically all 50 states, including some federal agencies, such as the ATF. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ATF is short for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. Riley’s reporting shows that, for about a year and a half, tens of thousands of searches from outside agencies were performed in Palo Alto. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think my hope with doing that was to sort of beg the question of: what do these agencies have anything to do with Palo Alto? Or why is Palo Alto’s ALPR data appearing in search results by, you know, police departments from halfway across the country? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is actually super illegal. California law prohibits the sharing of ALPR data with out-of-state and federal agencies — and this has been the case since 2016. The Palo Alto Police Department told Riley that they didn’t know the city had been opted into the national lookup feature. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, they went above and beyond existing California law about not sharing with any out-of-state or federal agencies. And, what my reporting shows is that Flock was still able to bypass those without telling anybody. They didn’t tell the police department, they didn’t tell city officials, they just quietly rolled out this nationwide data-sharing effort, which completely went past local and California regulations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think city officials were really confident at first that they had enacted these protections, that they were protecting residents and heeding those surveillance concerns. And yet, at the end of the day, the company still did what they wanted to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It begs the question: why did Flock bypass the police department and make this data available nationwide? And what is the point of privacy protections if Flock can just access the data and share it anyway? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recently there’s been hundreds of people turning out to city government meetings to protest the Flock contract and urging Palo Alto to do what neighboring cities have done, which is to shut down the cameras or terminate their contract with Flock. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, thanks to Riley’s reporting, the Palo Alto Police Department is proactively sharing license plate search logs on its website. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, everyone’s able to go and find that information on their own, and can verify that no out-of-state or illegal searches are being performed. I don’t know any other city that’s currently doing that by practically publishing those, so I think that’s pretty cool. And Palo Alto is also auditing its Flock contract. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The consulting firm in charge of the Flock audit — called the OIR Group — has managed to hold Palo Alto’s cops accountable in the past — like standardizing bodycam usage. Will these data protections do anything, though? Riley says that residents are concerned that Flock could easily disregard them and go over the city again, like it did in Mountain View. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They don’t like that they were lied to. And so, I think a lot of residents had their suspicions about this, couldn’t exactly confirm that it was happening in Palo Alto, and my reporting was just — again, that confirmation that they were looking for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riley said the Palo Alto Police Department will probably listen to resident demands for greater transparency around Flock. But, even if the city gets rid of Flock cameras, law enforcement will likely still use ALPRs. If not Flock’s, then another company’s. There’s nationwide pushback against Flock — are these community efforts going anywhere though? Let’s open one last tab: can Flock be stopped? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re heading back to Alameda County, where Oakland is partnering with Flock to operate nearly 300 ALPRs throughout the city. But organizers remain committed to protesting the contracts. Roselyn Romero, the Oaklandside reporter from earlier, pointed out that Alameda County has a history of social movements. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because of Alameda County’s location, situated where all of these technological and AI advancements are originated, and the fact that Alameda County is home to many social justice movements over the years — I’m thinking about the Black Panther Party in Oakland, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of these social justice movements, racial justice movements, and activists are also on the side of: we shouldn’t have Flock in our communities, and why are we continuing to expand these sorts of police technologies in our neighborhoods, when there are already so many community members who are vulnerable and afraid? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think it speaks to this crucial moment in Alameda County of: everybody agrees that Flock Safety’s cameras are really powerful. It’s just- now, the debate is: what to use that power for, how comfortable we are with that power, and where we see our society going with this type of powerful tool in our communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In California, organizers have actually made real progress in stopping Flock — or getting it removed. Santa Cruz was the first city to turn off its cameras. Mountain View, South Pasadena, El Cerrito, Campbell, Oxnard, and other California cities followed. And, like we talked about earlier, some residents have taken matters into their own hands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Oakland, we’ve seen people paintbombing these Flock cameras, where cameras in Oakland have just been splashed with paint and vandalized, if you will. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And beyond the concerns about Flock’s capabilities, the company’s services are expensive. Flock contracts add up to millions of dollars. And this has many residents questioning how else this funding could be used. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When crime is at near historic lows, why are we continuing to put more money and more power into these powerful technologies? Right now, the Oakland City Council is debating its budget for the next fiscal year. And, we’re seeing all of these programs for violence prevention and for other community events being cut. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of community members are saying, “Why are we continuing to invest in police technologies and surveillance tools when we could instead allocate that money toward, say, health care or childhood education — early childhood education — more social programs for people who really need it during the summertime, or homelessness services?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a really interesting and seemingly endless debate that we’re seeing in Oakland and Alameda County and across the country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alameda County Supervisor David Haubert: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[bangs gavel] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have to take a vote on this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back in April, at the Alameda Board of Supervisors meeting, the board voted in favor of extending the Flock contract until July 1st. That’s despite the vocal pushback from residents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Protesters outside of budget meeting]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last Tuesday — the day before the contract expired —the Alameda Board of Supervisors once again voted to extend Flock’s contract… This time, until the end of next year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alameda County Supervisor David Haubert: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that motion passes. We’re not entertaining comments from the gallery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once that’s up, the County Sheriff’s Office will have the opportunity to look for alternative vendors: surveillance tech companies that offer the same services as Flock. There are about a dozen or so competitors that could replace Flock cameras. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, even if the board votes to end its contract, this larger question still exists: Does mass surveillance of people who aren’t suspected of a crime violate their Fourth Amendment right to privacy? Is that worth giving up in the name of public safety? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This debate is not unique to the Bay Area. We’re seeing — at the federal level — President Donald Trump’s mass deportation agenda playing out in full force. What does that say about the type of surveillance, technology, and society that we want to have here in the Bay Area? What does that say about the types of companies and values we want to support and continue funding, not just at the national level, but even here, in our own communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This debate gets at the heart of the right to privacy, guaranteed by the Constitution, but chipped away at every year. Communities across the country have made it clear that they oppose the partnerships between surveillance tech companies and the government. Will city leaders listen? Who knows? But paintbombing Flock cameras is a growing trend. And, as we’ve seen from other incidents across the country, people will find alternative — and creative —ways to make their anger heard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s it for today’s deep dive. But, as usual, stick around after the credits for bonus content. And if you’re dying to open more tabs about Flock Safety and all of its controversies, check out our show notes. We have some further reading there. But for now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and it’s reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced and field-reported by Maya Cueva. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience and engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED Podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and materon Milky yellow pro v2 switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode includes clips from WWMT News, WHAS-11, TMJ4 News, KEZI 9, Benn Jordan, and Forbes. Special thanks to Rosalyn Romero and Riley Cooke, and everyone we spoke to at the Alameda County Board of Supervisors meeting. Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For the past couple of months, it’s mostly been organized demonstrations, and there’s been a sign that’s been going around that says, “GTFO: Get the Flock Out,” which I think is pretty funny. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock Safety’s license plate readers have become a flashpoint for a debate across the country. On one side: law enforcement and their supporters, who say the cameras reduce crime and improve public safety. On the other: residents and advocates worried about a creeping surveillance state and the myriad security issues Flock has already been exposed for.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan talks to Bay Area reporters Roselyn Romero and Riley Cooke about the fight over Flock spreading throughout the region, what we still don’t know about how Flock’s data is used and how some residents are finding creative ways to push back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6560783367\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/author/roselyn-romero/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Roselyn Romero\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, public safety journalist at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Oaklandside \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.paloaltoonline.com/author/rcookeembarcaderopublishing-com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riley Cooke\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Palo Alto Weekly \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB0gr7Fh6lY\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We Hacked Flock Safety Cameras in under 30 Seconds \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Benn Jordan, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Youtube \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://sanjosespotlight.com/palo-alto-license-plate-data-searched-by-hundreds-of-out-of-state-agencies/\">Palo Alto license plate data searched by hundreds of out-of-state agencies\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Riley Cooke, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>Palo Alto Weekly\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/2026/05/28/flock-training-police-city-councils-webinar/\">Flock is quietly training Bay Area police to sway city leaders to buy surveillance tech\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Roselyn Romero, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>The Oaklandside \u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/flock-exposed-its-ai-powered-cameras-to-the-internet-we-tracked-ourselves/\">Flock Exposed Its AI-Powered Cameras to the Internet. We Tracked Ourselves\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jason Koebler, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://knock-la.com/does-flock-safety-keep-women-safe/\">Does Flock Safety Keep Women Safe?\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jayme Kusyk, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Knock LA\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://ij.org/police-have-reportedly-used-license-plate-readers-to-stalk-romantic-interests-at-least-14-times-in-recent-years/\">Police Have Reportedly Used License Plate Readers to Stalk Romantic Interests at Least 21 Times in Recent Years \u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci> —\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Christopher Ingraham, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Institute for Justice\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://prospect.org/2026/05/21/home-depot-lowes-downplay-customer-surveillance-threats-flock-cameras-immigration/\">Home Depot and Lowe’s Downplay Customer Surveillance Threats\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Whitney Curry Wimbish, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>The American Prospect\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.whro.org/business-growth/2026-01-20/flock-cameras-in-hampton-roads-surveil-black-communities-more-intensely-than-white-ones-cnu-study-says\">Flock cameras in Hampton Roads surveil Black communities more intensely than white ones, CNU study says\u003c/a> — Toby Cox, \u003ci>WHRO\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/ice-taps-into-nationwide-ai-enabled-camera-network-data-shows/\">ICE Taps into Nationwide AI-Enabled Camera Network, Data Shows\u003c/a> — Jason Koebler & Joseph Cox, \u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/2026/04/24/who-is-paint-bombing-oaklands-flock-cameras/\">Who is paint bombing Oakland’s Flock cameras?\u003c/a> — Eli Wolfe, \u003ci>The Oaklandside\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bloodinthemachine.com/p/across-the-us-people-are-dismantling\">Across the US, people are dismantling and destroying Flock surveillance cameras\u003c/a> — Brian Merchant, \u003ci>Blood In The Machine\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/sf-car-break-in-data-18639763.php\">Has S.F. cracked how to fix the car break-in crisis? Here’s what is driving the decline\u003c/a> — Rachel Swan, \u003ci>San Francisco Chronicle \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bay Area Resident: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Having Flock cameras will not keep us safe. These cameras will go up in the neighborhoods where people of color live and we can be damn sure that this information will be taken by the feds and shared with ICE. They do what they want. So don’t believe anybody who says this information is private and secure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In April, Bay Area residents crowded into the downtown Oakland Administration building. It was supposed to be a routine budget meeting for the Alameda County Board of Supervisors. But it was unusually packed, thanks to one agenda item: approving a contract extension for Flock Safety cameras. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This would allow the controversial surveillance tech company to continue running its network of AI-powered license plate readers throughout the county — including unincorporated areas outside of cities like Oakland and Berkeley. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The contract expired last summer. If approved, the extension would buy another three months of Flock surveillance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The room was packed with residents, from Oakland to Castro Valley. Even more attended virtually to give comments. More than a hundred residents spoke during the meeting. Close All Tabs producer, Maya Cueva, was on the scene. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Narayan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Good evening. I urge you to reject Flock’s $854,000 contract extension. This isn’t a camera system, it’s a mass surveillance network that will track every single one of us, making a searchable database that tracks our movements. You guys say you care about immigrant communities, but this system puts them directly in danger. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock’s license plate readers have become a flashpoint for a debate across the country — not just in the Bay Area. On one side: law enforcement and their supporters, who say the cameras reduce crime and improve public safety. On the other: residents and advocates who are concerned about a creeping surveillance state, an erosion of the right to privacy, and the myriad security issues Flock has already been exposed for. Alameda County residents of all ages have been fighting against Flock in their neighborhoods for a while. And some aren’t even able to vote yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Narayan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, my name’s Narayan. I’m 17. I go by he/him pronouns, and I’m from East Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kaylyn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, my names Kaylyn. I’m 17 years old, and I live in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tyson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Tyson, I’m 18, he/him pronouns, and I live in Albany. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Narayan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m here to stop the implementation and extending of a Flock contract in my county. Flock is a multi-billion dollar corporation that is focused on hyper surveillance of people, and we’ve already seen that it is in the wrong hands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three years ago, Alameda County leaders approved a contract to install 100 plate readers throughout the county. Berkeley has just over 30, and Oakland recently approved a $2 million contract for nearly 300 more cameras in the city. Other residents have been speaking out about the issue for years now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manny: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve been fighting Flock since 2023, but now it’s a lot more in the cultural zeitgeist. A lot of people have become a lot aware of the surveillance systems that are being used to surveil them, to watch and kidnap their community members. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ramesh Sridharan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We don’t want mass surveillance. We should be investing in communities. We should be spending our money on that as opposed to programs like Flock, which contribute to a surveillance state and have no evidence of actually reducing crime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But some residents spoke in support of extending Flock’s contract. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert Battinich: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was raised in San Leandro for 25 years. I own property in San Leandro and I’ve been robbed 24 times. Recently, they put Flock cameras in San Leandro, and it seems to be that they haven’t been breaking in. So, please vote “yes” on renewing the contract with the Flock cameras. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The board of supervisors kept calling for decorum when attendees clapped for anti-Flock speakers. So one resident used his allotted time to scold the board. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ralph Brown: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it seems like a majority of you are just ready to reject the overwhelming majority of your residents who are telling you to vote “no” on this contract, not spend $300,000 plus more dollars to extend this contract and basically just say- tell us to go fuck ourselves, is what I’m hearing from you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The meeting lasted hours — and after all that, the board of supervisors voted 3-2 in favor of extending the contract. Protests broke out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Protesters outside of budget meeting]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The backlash we’re seeing against Flock in Alameda County is part of a bigger nationwide fight against normalizing mass surveillance. Flock vandalism is up across the country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @wwmtnews on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Kalamazoo County Sheriff’s Office says someone intentionally cut down a Flock license plate reader camera along D Avenue in Cooper Township. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @WHAS11News on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Auburn normally has 12 in the city, now they’re down two. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @tmj4 on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Take a close look at this automatic license plate reading camera, and you’ll notice gold paint covering the lens. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People have put stickers over the cameras’ lenses, covered them with trash bags, paintbombed entire devices, and joked online about pointing lasers at the cameras to destroy the sensors. In Oregon, someone cut down six poles holding Flock cameras, leaving a note that said, quote, “Hahaha get wrecked you surveilling fucks.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @KEZI9News on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No arrests have been made in either jurisdiction, but this is considered criminal mischief. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s local news station KEZI 9, which actually broadcasted the uncensored note. But aside from resorting to “criminal mischief,” how else are people fighting the installation of these cameras in their neighborhoods? Today, we’re digging into the heated debate around Flock cameras: what exactly they’re doing with your data and why this might matter more than you think. Ready? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Automated license plate readers, or ALPRs, have been rapidly rolled out by cities and communities around the country, with Flock Safety’s tech at the lead. Before we get any deeper into this, we need to talk about what Flock actually is — and how it was adopted so quickly. Let’s open a new tab: Why is Flock so controversial? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into the origin story. So, Flock Safety is based in Atlanta, Georgia. It operates a whole host of surveillance devices: cameras, drones, and, importantly, for this story, ALPRs. Back in 2017, this Georgia Tech alum, Garrett Langley, noticed the uptake in break-ins around his Atlanta neighborhood. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Police told him that grainy surveillance camera footage was actually unhelpful, and what they really needed to find perpetrators were license plates. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, Garrett called up two of his college buddies. Together, they worked on a prototype camera that could record and share what he called “evidence,” not just footage. Here he is speaking to Forbes last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Garrett’s interview with @Forbes on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s pretty wild. At the end of ’17, we were sitting at my dining room table in Atlanta, building cameras by hand. And now, today, we’re in a roughly 100,000 square foot facility building cameras, building trailers, building drones — all right here in Georgia, which is pretty fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Fun” is certainly one way to put it. This entrepreneurial, neighborly concern has grown into an operation of at least 90,000 cameras nationwide, scanning over 20 billion license plates per month. Over 1,000 private businesses have also installed the cameras, adding to Flock’s massive surveillance database. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Oakland, the push for installing Flock’s ALPRs was fueled by local frustration over BIP-ing — you know, breaking into a parked car and looting whatever’s inside. Here’s Roselyn Romero, a reporter for the independent local news outlet, The Oaklandside. She’s been covering Flock Safety cameras for the region. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BIP-ing, or car break-ins, were also understandably making a lot of residents angry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The city took action around 2024. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Oakland Police Department eventually signed a contract with Flock Safety for cameras to be installed throughout the city, primarily on freeway entrances and exits. And right now, today, there are 293 Flock cameras in Oakland — specifically, automated license plate readers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock’s ALPRs go way further than the standard traffic cam that tickets drivers for speeding. The cameras automatically capture the license plate of every car that drives by — as well as 6 to 12 images of other identifying information. All of this is used to create what Flock calls: a vehicle fingerprint. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The make and the model of that vehicle, if there is a scrape on the bumper, or if there are bumper stickers on the car — Flock keeps a database of all of that information of every car that passes by the ALPRs. And that database can be used by the law enforcement agencies that contract with Flock to investigate crimes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock will send officers alerts when a camera captures a vehicle that’s been marked stolen or wanted. Or, the police can search the database to trace a specific vehicle’s movements across the country. Car break-ins in San Francisco have plummeted since 2023. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But whether Flock has any part in that is dubious. The city started cracking down on car break-ins long before it adopted Flock cameras. Still, supporters say that Flock is necessary to prevent crime and catch those who do it. Now, the company says its devices are not equipped to track individual people — but recent expansions have residents concerned. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock also has cameras that are called pan, tilt, and zoom cameras. Those cameras, which are currently being used by the Alameda County Sheriff’s Office, can be used to track pedestrians in addition to vehicles. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of the data collected by Flock cameras around the country is shared and stored in a massive aggregated database, which can be accessed by anyone in the network. That means that police in Texas can hunt a woman who travels out of state for an abortion, or that ICE agents can ask local police in Illinois to track undocumented families. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Both of these scenarios are real. They’ve already happened. Privacy activists and civil liberties groups are especially worried. Given the Trump administration’s recent immigration crackdown. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are scared — even putting Flock cameras aside, many immigrants are afraid of immigration enforcement knocking on their doors. We’re hearing a lot of newly arrived immigrants, refugee and asylum seekers, and other vulnerable populations say that they don’t even want to go outside anymore. They don’t even want to go grocery shopping or send their children to school because they’re afraid of ICE coming in and taking them away from their families. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve been seeing reports of law enforcement agencies and police departments in places outside of California that have shared data with Border Patrol, with U.S. Customs and Immigration Enforcement, and other federal law enforcement agencies that deal with deporting people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so a lot of people are understandably afraid. And really concerned about, well, if this technology is continued here in Alameda County, who’s to say that that data is gonna end up in the wrong hands? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A big part of the concern is around data privacy. Flock says it deletes all the information after 30 days. But the company isn’t very transparent about how they handle all of this data. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There have been a lot of concerns from community members I’ve interviewed who say, you know, even if this data is stored in this database for 30 days, what happens after those 30 days? There have just been a whole host of concerns about the type of data that is stored, for how long it’s stored, and who has access to that data before and after it’s retained. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock also says all of this data, and their camera feeds, are encrypted. These assurances fall flat, though. Around the U.S., amateur hackers have been able to get around the company’s security systems. Tech YouTuber Benn Jordan explained how he did it in a video posted last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You may remember me from this video, where I told you about 40,000 of these things that your tax dollars pay for that are tracking your every move and repurposing data collected about you every time that you drive past them. Upon further investigation, it turns out that there are over 80,000 of them — and, um, we got some, and we hacked them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the help of a cybersecurity expert, Benn was able to hack Flock safety cameras in a whopping 30 seconds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First thing you’re going to want to do is go ahead and press the button to turn on that police camera. Then press the button on the back a number of times I can’t disclose in this video. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There she is: the Flock wireless access point. Go on and connect. Send a command to enable ADB. Connect. And now you can connect to the Flock Safety device and access its data. Or install whatever the hell you want on it. Have fun! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Apparently, hacking a Flock camera really is that easy. At least, it was when that video was published. And once you’re in, there’s a lot you can do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can clone or decompile the apps. You could send the video stream data to a remote server. You could use it as a botnet client for malware. You could have it capture Wi-Fi handshake credentials and do middleman or honeypot attacks — or replace or modify captured footage or images. And if that is the case, this could bring into question the integrity of the data being used as admissible evidence in court, like, in general. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When these cameras can be hacked and used to spy on people or watch kids, watch everyday people, it really makes you think: how comfortable are we with this type of mass surveillance in our communities? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a follow-up video, Benn showed how easy it was to find the control panels for Flock’s cameras. 404 Media confirmed that at least 60 of Flock’s Condor cameras — the ones that can pan, zoom, and tilt — were left unsecured on the open internet. That means that the live streams and administrator panels could be accessed by anyone with the right link — no login credentials needed. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the panels, anyone could download 30 days of archive footage, manually control the cameras, and run diagnostics. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, if Flock cameras can be easily hacked or are left totally unsecured, what does it mean for the troves of data? All the photos, the live feeds, the vehicle fingerprints that are stored on Flock’s cloud servers — how is this data being used, authorized or not? Who can access it? That’s a new tab: How is Flock being misused? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There have been a lot of red flags raised by privacy experts and technology experts who say that Flock doesn’t have enough data privacy safeguards to protect itself from liability, as well as protect community members who may be vulnerable to civil immigration enforcement, or enforcement as it relates to seeking abortions or reproductive health care in states where it’s illegal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There have been reports of law enforcement using Flock data for both of these purposes — as well as more… personal uses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve seen reports from other parts of the country where police officers have used Flock’s database to track down their ex-girlfriends and stalk them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Wisconsin cop used Flock to stalk his ex-girlfriend and her partner. He submitted 179 database searches for their license plates. In fact, multiple officers have been accused of using Flock’s database to stalk romantic interests — there are at least 21 reported incidents of this in recent years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, even though we have Flock and law enforcement saying one thing about Flock cameras’ original intent and purpose, there’s always the potential for something to happen where this technology is used beyond its original intent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s all assuming that technology is working correctly. What if Flock’s vehicle fingerprint is wrong? Just a few months ago, police stopped a 62-year-old woman in Oakland who was driving to her job at a nursing home. Flock had connected her plates to a “serious crime.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, she exited the vehicle with her hands up, her car registration was in her hand, and she saw these sheriff’s deputies pointing their guns at her — and she was really confused. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, eventually the sheriff’s deputies told her, “Oh, you might not be the suspect we’re looking for because the license plate reader tracked down your license plate. And we essentially connected your license plate number to a crime that had been committed not that long ago.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What the woman didn’t know was that her plates had been stolen, and replaced with the ones associated with the crime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She came to the realization, “I’m being treated like I’m a violent criminal.” That could have gone so much worse than it did, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But here’s the thing: Flock flagged a black Honda Civic. This woman drove a silver car. Flock’s “vehicle fingerprint” is supposed to be holistic, taking into account way more details about a car than just its license plates. Were these other details checked before officers made the stop? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It opens up this scary question of: can this happen to me? Can this happen to someone I love, someone I know — completely unsuspecting — who may have had their license plate stolen?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And here’s another issue with this technology: racial bias. Black and Brown communities are already more likely to be overpoliced and are disproportionately targeted for traffic stops. The existing bias is evident in Flock’s search records — law enforcement officials still use racist and derogatory language when they search through Flock’s ALPR database. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as one study showed, Flock Safety cameras have been found to surveil predominantly Black communities more intensely than white ones. In Virginia’s Hampton Roads area, neighborhoods where at least 50% of residents are Black have four times the number of Flock cameras as majority-white neighborhoods. One of the highest concentrations of cameras is around the only HBCU in the area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In neighborhoods where Black and Brown people are already overly policed, overly surveilled, and overly criminalized, these cameras can play a big role in terms of the types of enforcement actions police take against these communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, the company has been long-resistant to efforts to track and log its devices, like in the case of a project called DeFlock. It’s an open-source, community-run tool that identifies and maps the locations of Flock’s cameras. Flock CEO and Co-Founder Garrett Langley is not a fan. Here he is speaking to Forbes again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Garrett’s interview with @Forbes on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, there’s terroristic organizations like DeFlock, whose primary motivation is chaos. They are closer to Antifa than they are anything else. And that, I think, is unfortunate — because we don’t want chaos, or I don’t want chaos. I like law and order, I like a society that has a bedrock of safety. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That interview is from September of last year. A few months later, he sent an unsolicited email to all Flock law enforcement clients. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in that email, the CEO attacked activist groups who were against Flock. He said that they wanted to normalize lawlessness and let murderers go free. The CEO also called these activists, quote, “terrorists.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This prompted the city of Staunton, Virginia, as well as several others, to officially terminate their contracts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in a press release, the police chief of Staunton, Virginia, basically was like, “We will not tolerate this type of rhetoric.” They said, quote, “The city of Staunton wants to make it clear that the Flock Safety CEO’s narrative does not reflect the city’s values.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Langley’s comments also came amid intense debate over local police sharing Flock data with ICE, which is a violation of city policy in some places. Altogether, it was a PR disaster. As of March, at least 30 localities have canceled their contracts with Flock, or deactivated the ALPRs. The city of Dayton, Ohio is still deciding whether to turn off their cameras — so, while they deliberate, they covered them up with trash bags. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite all the vocal opposition, Flock has a lot of support from businesses looking to improve public safety around their buildings — whether it’s private companies trying to protect employees in downtown corporate offices, or mom-and-pop shops trying to protect their storefronts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock Safety cameras have been used by many business leaders and commercial districts throughout the Bay Area to address crime, prevent crime, track down people who may have broken into restaurants, vandalized businesses. So there’s just been a lot of support from large corporations, in addition to local business leaders, who argue that Flock cameras have actually been a really good thing for business, and for the safety of their employees, and customers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But residents are becoming more vocal about their distrust in Flock — in part, because it’s unclear who exactly has access to Flock’s data once it’s collected. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who’s to say that these law enforcement agencies from other states can also use data from California law enforcement agencies? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How far is this data being shared? Is Flock breaking local laws? One reporter in Palo Alto uncovered a slew of Flock search requests that violated the city’s own policies. We’re getting into that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Okay. After the break, Flock’s data breach. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re back. Let’s open a new tab: The Palo Alto Flock scandal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People were just as fired up about a pickleball debate a couple of weeks ago in Palo Alto — so there are certain issues that definitely get people to turn out, whether it’s converting a pickleball court or, you know, cameras that are watching your every move when you’re moving about the city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riley Cooke is a City Hall reporter at Palo Alto Weekly. Earlier this year, a publication in nearby Mountain View had discovered that the city’s Flock data had been accessed by a slew of outside entities. Riley wanted to find out if the same thing was happening in Palo Alto. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what I did is I filed a records request for these search audits that Flock and the police department maintain. So, every time a search is conducted, whether by a local officer or by an out-of-state agency, or outside agency at all into Palo Alto — that’s logged in a giant spreadsheet with the time, the date, and the reason for the search. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The request was approved, but at first, the police chief didn’t hand over the specific documents that Riley was looking for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I reopened the request and said, “Hey, I actually want these spreadsheets.” And eventually they gave them to me in March. And my editor was- he was out on some, like, coffee chat with a source, and so I was blowing up his texts, like, “We got the ALPR records, we’ve got them.” And it’s thousands and thousands of pages that detail every single search: the time, the date, who conducted it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The search records revealed that police departments from all over the country were also searching Palo Alto’s Flock data, without the permission of the city, or the Palo Alto Police Department. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The police department told me that they didn’t actually access any of the data or download it, but Palo Alto’s cameras still appeared in search results from, you know, Mississippi, Illinois — basically all 50 states, including some federal agencies, such as the ATF. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ATF is short for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. Riley’s reporting shows that, for about a year and a half, tens of thousands of searches from outside agencies were performed in Palo Alto. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think my hope with doing that was to sort of beg the question of: what do these agencies have anything to do with Palo Alto? Or why is Palo Alto’s ALPR data appearing in search results by, you know, police departments from halfway across the country? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is actually super illegal. California law prohibits the sharing of ALPR data with out-of-state and federal agencies — and this has been the case since 2016. The Palo Alto Police Department told Riley that they didn’t know the city had been opted into the national lookup feature. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, they went above and beyond existing California law about not sharing with any out-of-state or federal agencies. And, what my reporting shows is that Flock was still able to bypass those without telling anybody. They didn’t tell the police department, they didn’t tell city officials, they just quietly rolled out this nationwide data-sharing effort, which completely went past local and California regulations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think city officials were really confident at first that they had enacted these protections, that they were protecting residents and heeding those surveillance concerns. And yet, at the end of the day, the company still did what they wanted to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It begs the question: why did Flock bypass the police department and make this data available nationwide? And what is the point of privacy protections if Flock can just access the data and share it anyway? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recently there’s been hundreds of people turning out to city government meetings to protest the Flock contract and urging Palo Alto to do what neighboring cities have done, which is to shut down the cameras or terminate their contract with Flock. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, thanks to Riley’s reporting, the Palo Alto Police Department is proactively sharing license plate search logs on its website. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, everyone’s able to go and find that information on their own, and can verify that no out-of-state or illegal searches are being performed. I don’t know any other city that’s currently doing that by practically publishing those, so I think that’s pretty cool. And Palo Alto is also auditing its Flock contract. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The consulting firm in charge of the Flock audit — called the OIR Group — has managed to hold Palo Alto’s cops accountable in the past — like standardizing bodycam usage. Will these data protections do anything, though? Riley says that residents are concerned that Flock could easily disregard them and go over the city again, like it did in Mountain View. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They don’t like that they were lied to. And so, I think a lot of residents had their suspicions about this, couldn’t exactly confirm that it was happening in Palo Alto, and my reporting was just — again, that confirmation that they were looking for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riley said the Palo Alto Police Department will probably listen to resident demands for greater transparency around Flock. But, even if the city gets rid of Flock cameras, law enforcement will likely still use ALPRs. If not Flock’s, then another company’s. There’s nationwide pushback against Flock — are these community efforts going anywhere though? Let’s open one last tab: can Flock be stopped? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re heading back to Alameda County, where Oakland is partnering with Flock to operate nearly 300 ALPRs throughout the city. But organizers remain committed to protesting the contracts. Roselyn Romero, the Oaklandside reporter from earlier, pointed out that Alameda County has a history of social movements. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because of Alameda County’s location, situated where all of these technological and AI advancements are originated, and the fact that Alameda County is home to many social justice movements over the years — I’m thinking about the Black Panther Party in Oakland, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of these social justice movements, racial justice movements, and activists are also on the side of: we shouldn’t have Flock in our communities, and why are we continuing to expand these sorts of police technologies in our neighborhoods, when there are already so many community members who are vulnerable and afraid? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think it speaks to this crucial moment in Alameda County of: everybody agrees that Flock Safety’s cameras are really powerful. It’s just- now, the debate is: what to use that power for, how comfortable we are with that power, and where we see our society going with this type of powerful tool in our communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In California, organizers have actually made real progress in stopping Flock — or getting it removed. Santa Cruz was the first city to turn off its cameras. Mountain View, South Pasadena, El Cerrito, Campbell, Oxnard, and other California cities followed. And, like we talked about earlier, some residents have taken matters into their own hands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Oakland, we’ve seen people paintbombing these Flock cameras, where cameras in Oakland have just been splashed with paint and vandalized, if you will. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And beyond the concerns about Flock’s capabilities, the company’s services are expensive. Flock contracts add up to millions of dollars. And this has many residents questioning how else this funding could be used. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When crime is at near historic lows, why are we continuing to put more money and more power into these powerful technologies? Right now, the Oakland City Council is debating its budget for the next fiscal year. And, we’re seeing all of these programs for violence prevention and for other community events being cut. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of community members are saying, “Why are we continuing to invest in police technologies and surveillance tools when we could instead allocate that money toward, say, health care or childhood education — early childhood education — more social programs for people who really need it during the summertime, or homelessness services?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a really interesting and seemingly endless debate that we’re seeing in Oakland and Alameda County and across the country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alameda County Supervisor David Haubert: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[bangs gavel] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have to take a vote on this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back in April, at the Alameda Board of Supervisors meeting, the board voted in favor of extending the Flock contract until July 1st. That’s despite the vocal pushback from residents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Protesters outside of budget meeting]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last Tuesday — the day before the contract expired —the Alameda Board of Supervisors once again voted to extend Flock’s contract… This time, until the end of next year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alameda County Supervisor David Haubert: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that motion passes. We’re not entertaining comments from the gallery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once that’s up, the County Sheriff’s Office will have the opportunity to look for alternative vendors: surveillance tech companies that offer the same services as Flock. There are about a dozen or so competitors that could replace Flock cameras. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, even if the board votes to end its contract, this larger question still exists: Does mass surveillance of people who aren’t suspected of a crime violate their Fourth Amendment right to privacy? Is that worth giving up in the name of public safety? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This debate is not unique to the Bay Area. We’re seeing — at the federal level — President Donald Trump’s mass deportation agenda playing out in full force. What does that say about the type of surveillance, technology, and society that we want to have here in the Bay Area? What does that say about the types of companies and values we want to support and continue funding, not just at the national level, but even here, in our own communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This debate gets at the heart of the right to privacy, guaranteed by the Constitution, but chipped away at every year. Communities across the country have made it clear that they oppose the partnerships between surveillance tech companies and the government. Will city leaders listen? Who knows? But paintbombing Flock cameras is a growing trend. And, as we’ve seen from other incidents across the country, people will find alternative — and creative —ways to make their anger heard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s it for today’s deep dive. But, as usual, stick around after the credits for bonus content. And if you’re dying to open more tabs about Flock Safety and all of its controversies, check out our show notes. We have some further reading there. But for now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and it’s reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced and field-reported by Maya Cueva. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience and engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED Podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and materon Milky yellow pro v2 switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode includes clips from WWMT News, WHAS-11, TMJ4 News, KEZI 9, Benn Jordan, and Forbes. Special thanks to Rosalyn Romero and Riley Cooke, and everyone we spoke to at the Alameda County Board of Supervisors meeting. Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For the past couple of months, it’s mostly been organized demonstrations, and there’s been a sign that’s been going around that says, “GTFO: Get the Flock Out,” which I think is pretty funny. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everyone seems to have an opinion about AI, but what about those who will likely be affected most — recent graduates?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This cohort of grads is unique. They remember what classrooms were like before the emergence of ChatGPT in 2022, and have seen how it transformed the education world seemingly overnight. Today, we hear from three recent graduates in the Bay Area about their thoughts on AI, how it affected their education, and how they feel about their futures. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This week, we’re sharing a recent \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12085502/three-recent-graduates-share-their-thoughts-on-ai\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">episode\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> from KQED podcast \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/thebay\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Bay\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — a show that takes an in-depth look at stories from across the SF Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2030502225\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in … basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey, it’s Morgan. So, Close All Tabs is on vacation this week. Shocking, I know! We do log off sometimes. Or at least, we try to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But don’t worry — we still have an episode for you today. On Close All Tabs, we’re always talking about AI … from the way data centers are changing local communities, to the drama that industry billionaires are getting themselves into. About a year ago, we dove into how some teachers are dealing with the AI boom in their classrooms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re gonna hear the other side of that story, from young people who’ve been in the thick of it, but don’t always get to share their perspective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our friends at The Bay, another KQED podcast, spoke to a few recent college graduates about AI. This is a unique cohort of students: they remember what classrooms were like before ChatGPT, and they’ve seen how much it’s changed learning. They spoke to The Bay about how AI affected their college experience, and how they feel about entering the workforce in such rapidly changing industries. What are they really thinking about their futures? What’s on their minds?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alright, here’s Three Recent Graduates Share Their Thoughts on AI, from \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Bay\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alan Montecillo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m Alan Montecillo, in for Erika Cruz Guevara, and welcome to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. I graduated from college 13 years ago, and I gotta be honest, no disrespect, but I don’t remember who the commencement speaker was or what they talked about. Most graduation speeches have the same themes. Some message about hope. Thanking your friends and family, the importance of following your passion, and perhaps a call to change the world for the better. But this graduation season has felt a little different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gloria Caulfield:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The rise of artificial intelligence is the next industrial revolution.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alan Montecillo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There have been several videos of students booing commencement speakers when they mention AI. These videos have gone viral.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eric Schmidt:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Time magazine selected its person of the year for 2025. And it was this time, it was the architects of artificial intelligence. Interesting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Scott Borschetta:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> AI is rewriting production as we sit here. I know it, deal with it. Like I said, it’s a tool. Hey, like I said. You can hear me now or you can pay me later.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alan Montecillo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Today’s college graduates were in school when ChatGPT was first released in late 2022. They’ve seen it change their classrooms. Today, three recent graduates in the Bay Area tell us how they really feel about AI and about their futures.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ellena Simentel: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Ellena Simentel. I graduated with my master’s in kinesiology from San Francisco State.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kinesiology is the study of muscle movement. It’s very interdisciplinary, so there’s kind of a lot of different aspects in the field. So we do like sports psychology. You can go into physical therapy, athletic training, occupational therapy. I wanted to be a physical therapist. I’ve been to a little bit more recently. So I did focus mostly on like muscle physiology classes and that types of things. But now I think I wanna go more into a little bit more of the psychological motivational side, either doing some kind of city planning that has to do with getting people moving, or maybe even working for some type of nonprofit like Girls on the Run or things that get people active.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So even in undergrad we take our core class which is like one of the classes that teaches you like how to read and write in the field of kinesiology and that type of thing and midway through the semester I want to say this was like 2023. Our professor had actually changed the entire course of the class to focus on AI because it had like kind of just come out and she was like you And all of us at that point were kind of like, oh, you know, like, it’ll come and go, it is what it is. But what’s funny sitting back and looking at it now, it’s like, I feel like she really changed the class for a reason. I think it helped a lot of us just kind of get a grasp on what is AI, how to use it, the advantages maybe and some of the disadvantages. And so I obviously only took that class once, but I hope that they continue to do that for that class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s good to have immediate feedback, right? That’s, I think, one of the biggest advantages as a student. You don’t have to wait for your professor. It’s very individualized and you can really use it to fix specific things in your writing, for example, like writing essays. I think it’s a great tool to make you sound professional, help fix your grammar, maybe help you with the formatting. Um, the problem and the drawback is just sometimes it takes over your thinking. You it’s, it’s very easy to just put something in and be like, okay, now write me an essay, but there’s no thought that goes into that. There’s no critical thinking that goes in to that. Um, and at the end of the day, like it’s kind of taking away from the learning itself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m definitely less worried than other fields. I think there’s some careers in kinesiology, like if you wanted to be an athletic trainer or maybe like a personal trainer, there’s definitely a chance that AI could swoop in and take some of your clients. You can ask for a workout routine on ChatGPT so easily. However, The motivational aspect that comes with kinesiology and sports psychology that we learn with our degree I think is more helpful than talking to something online and just kind of having that like one-on-one human support is a lot more personalized. For example, like I worked in the athletic training department for a little bit and you can feel the difference in muscle when like a muscle is tense and you can kind with tell. What it needs, AI is not gonna be hands-on like that. And so having that human interaction in this field specifically is really helpful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I will say though that there’s just so much negativity around it and it’s kind of hard to take yourself out of the online discourse. My friend works out in this athletic studio with some of these tech guys and they talk the pros and the cons and like how people are being let go and and you know But at the same time, maybe there’s some jobs that AI should take over. Do people really need to be coding all day every day sitting on a computer? Maybe there’s things that humans shouldn’t be doing, like computer work all day. Maybe we need to go back outside.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m looking forward to seeing what’s out there, right? I live in San Francisco currently and I can’t really see myself. Moving away anytime soon. I think there’s just so much to experience and so many people to meet. Global pandemic, like I was in college, I was taking like 20 units a semester. Every semester I was summer classes, winter classes, and I really chased the academic route. I just turned 24 and I have my master’s and I don’t think a lot of people can say that. And so I think now kind of like finding what it is exactly that I want to do with it and kind of just getting more experience in the field is really exciting to me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ada He: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Ada He, and I’m currently a fourth year student at UC San Diego set to graduate on June 14th. My hometown is San Jose in the Bay Area, and I’m currently studying cognitive science with a specialization in machine learning and neural computation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So just to boil down to simple terms, it’s basically the study of intelligence, and it’s super duper relevant for machine learning, understanding these computational models of intelligence. The reason that I chose it and specifically the machine learning and neural computation track was because I think in high school I knew that I was curious about technology but I was also curious about more so the neuroscience and psychology side of things. And so I think I was kind of struck by this idea of like what is intelligence, how can we model it computationally and I think at the time even then there were starting to be like these buzzwords around ML and like AI and how this is going to be the next big thing of the future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so… Very practical future-oriented parents were like, you, our child, should definitely study something related to technology. And I was like, well, I’m not quite sure, so let me pick this broader major that has to do with technology, but also kind of has to do more with like the philosophy and the psychology and like the ethics of what these systems are.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think when I first started in college, basically the only place that I was hearing about machine learning, artificial intelligence as a whole was through theory in my coursework. But I think all of it was very much creative and like human driven. I think where I really started hearing about these AI tools that were in mass production was during my second year of college. So I think in that time, that was when ChatGPT was sort of like released to Apollo can never start using it and it became like the big thing. And suddenly it felt like everyone was talking about chatgbc like, oh hey, it’s pretty smart, it can do all these things. In my third year of college then, like after the summer when we came back to school, then it was taking off and everyone was using it in their classes, everyone’s like asking it questions, and they were using it to code in my programming classes, they were asking it for essay advice, and then I think that was when I started to think like wait, isn’t that an academic integrity violation and then so is AI just being used to like help us cheat now? Started out in this very humanistic direction, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was using AI as a tool to investigate these hypotheses and to see if I could get it to predict the patterns that I could predict. They were supposed to be these helpful tools that would help us diagnose bigger problems that were facing people. I’ve heard of applications of AI to chart patterns of climate change. So in my head, I just thought AI and ML had so much potential to be used for good. With ChatGPT, I know it’s like- There’s so much progress now going on in the area of large language models that I wonder if the other areas of AI and other use cases are being neglected. This seems like all research is funneling into how these large language models can help us replace white collar jobs. And I’m like, when did that become the focus of artificial intelligence and machine learning?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think I’ve been searching for a full-time job since January. As a student who is looking for a white collar job, it’s been very very very distressing to hear all the discourse that AI is meant to replace the work that I’ve spent four years studying. I think I honestly lost track by half to have applied for more than 300 jobs at this point. Just knowing that like the odds of getting a job are so slim even if you do get a callback and then seeing the number of callbacks I’m getting compared to the number applications I put out, that is kind of insane to me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do have summer jobs lined up. I’m currently like a student employee at the UC San Diego library. And I think like I’ve been really fortunate to have that environment because working for the web team there feels very meaningful since the work we do is like all done by hand. We have a very intentional design approach and the goal of all the work that I put out there is to serve the student body.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think everything that I’ve made there has made me like feel good and I don’t like feel as much like moral confusion when I think about continuing that work this summer. But that rule runs until September, so I know that I have wiggle rooms trying to figure things out somewhat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every generation has faced its demons and maybe the world of AI slop these like powerfully generative tools are kind of one of the demons that my generation has to face in the sense that we have to figure out where it fits into our lives and where it fits into workflows without compromising our morals because they might be here to stay. And then we also have to figure out how to deal with them in our daily, day-to-day work, because that’s probably gonna be an inseparable part of it, whether we like it or not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aaron Kim: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Aaron Kim. I graduated from UC Berkeley with a major in political science. I came in through the community college route and I started community college in 2019. So I had a couple of years to see like at least in community college, like what higher education was like before AI, then it dropped. And then I saw everyone kind of like scrambling to react to it. It was really interesting watching the different ways professors would try to handle it. Some of them just had like a no AI policy. Others had like a, you have to use AI policy. My gosh, yeah. I remember really early on, there was a professor that told me that like, or that told the class that don’t use AI. I can tell if you use AI because it’ll take your essay, put it in ChatGPT and ask it if it wrote it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s been a bit of a consensus that’s settled around AI, where professors just kind of understood that it’s here. So they got more specific on how we’re supposed to use it. So they’re like, oh, you can use it as a writing assistant. You can use as to help start your research, but don’t use it a source and don’t make it do all your writing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I know some people that are really hardline against it, I kind of agree with them for the most part. Like I think that AI especially, it’s not very sustainable. I feel like it’s sometimes people over-rely on it, which I’ve seen a lot. But I’ve also seen it level the playing field, especially for like ESL speakers. Sometimes I’ll see people who are like in higher education and they’re like not speaking English as a first language I I remember before AI they were excuse my language, but they were basically just shit out of luck. They were gonna be judged the same as like a native English speaker and like sometimes like it just like people were not nice about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I’m like a first-gen college student, so I I just kind of went to college because I don’t know, I didn’t really know why I was going. I just did it. I’m not one of those people that was like, oh yeah, I’m gonna be a doctor or a lawyer or a dentist. I ended up doing a lot of stuff in the union world and the labor world and like the community organizing world, which is why I think AI has affected me a little less personally, like a little less directly because none of the jobs that I was really looking for are really AI exposed as much.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luckily I’m one of these people, but I do think the implementation of AI in the economy has like, I’ve received a lot of the downwind effects. I think a lot tasks are having AI implemented into it. And because of that, I think there’s just less need for a lot of entry level positions that existed in the past. My friends and I joke about it being a “nepo economy” right now, because there’s just like, nobody’s getting jobs through applications, at least not a lot. It’s just all like, you have to know somebody and that’s how you’re getting jobs. I’m still trying to really figure out what direction I want to go for that. But right now I’m just like trying to find something in social impact, you know, nonprofits or unions, um, which is just because that’s like, you know, where my heart was at during college. And that’s where a lot of my experience was at. But yeah, at this point, I think I just kind of have to try to keep an open mind.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just don’t really think this sort of like innovation is really helping most people in a way that’s really substantial. Like I feel like, yeah, it’s like making things more convenient for a lot of us in like really minor ways, but I just feel like, like, was this all necessary? But it’s like here and we can’t like press, there’s no undo button for things like this, so I guess I just kind of have to adapt. Luckily, in terms of my personal career trajectory, it still feels pretty peripheral. Because a lot of the organizations I’m interested in working for are concerned with working people-centered kind of policies, I think mass, uncritical, enthusiastic adoption of AI is just something that hopefully a lot them just wouldn’t do. Like how would you feel if you’re like working and your union rep is like a chat GPT, like an iPad on the like a little thing that rolls around and tries to get you to sign union cards, right? Like that’s kind of something that AI can never take away. It’s like, because of so much of organizing job or so much organizing is based on building trust human to human, you know? And that’s just something AI can ever do…I hope!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Ellena Simentel, Ada He, and Aaron Kim. This episode was cut down and edited by me, and producer Jessica Kariisa. It was also produced by Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Additional support from Pauline Bartoloni. Music courtesy of Audio Network. Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you want to get in touch with us at The Bay, send us an email at TheBay@KQED.org.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Bay is a production of KQED Public Media in San Francisco. You can help power our show by becoming a member at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alan Montecillo, in for Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey! It’s Morgan again. You can listen to more of The Bay wherever you get your podcasts! We’ll be back next week with a brand new episode of Close All Tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "Everyone seems to have an opinion about AI, but what about those who will likely be affected most — recent graduates? This cohort of grads is unique. They remember what classrooms were like before the emergence of ChatGPT in 2022, and have seen how it transformed the education world seemingly overnight. Today, we hear from three recent graduates in the Bay Area about their thoughts on AI, how it affected their education, and how they feel about their futures. This week, we’re sharing a recent episode from KQED podcast The Bay — a show that takes an in-depth look at stories from across the SF Bay Area.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everyone seems to have an opinion about AI, but what about those who will likely be affected most — recent graduates?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This cohort of grads is unique. They remember what classrooms were like before the emergence of ChatGPT in 2022, and have seen how it transformed the education world seemingly overnight. Today, we hear from three recent graduates in the Bay Area about their thoughts on AI, how it affected their education, and how they feel about their futures. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This week, we’re sharing a recent \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12085502/three-recent-graduates-share-their-thoughts-on-ai\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">episode\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> from KQED podcast \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/thebay\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Bay\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — a show that takes an in-depth look at stories from across the SF Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2030502225\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in … basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey, it’s Morgan. So, Close All Tabs is on vacation this week. Shocking, I know! We do log off sometimes. Or at least, we try to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But don’t worry — we still have an episode for you today. On Close All Tabs, we’re always talking about AI … from the way data centers are changing local communities, to the drama that industry billionaires are getting themselves into. About a year ago, we dove into how some teachers are dealing with the AI boom in their classrooms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re gonna hear the other side of that story, from young people who’ve been in the thick of it, but don’t always get to share their perspective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our friends at The Bay, another KQED podcast, spoke to a few recent college graduates about AI. This is a unique cohort of students: they remember what classrooms were like before ChatGPT, and they’ve seen how much it’s changed learning. They spoke to The Bay about how AI affected their college experience, and how they feel about entering the workforce in such rapidly changing industries. What are they really thinking about their futures? What’s on their minds?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alright, here’s Three Recent Graduates Share Their Thoughts on AI, from \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Bay\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alan Montecillo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m Alan Montecillo, in for Erika Cruz Guevara, and welcome to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. I graduated from college 13 years ago, and I gotta be honest, no disrespect, but I don’t remember who the commencement speaker was or what they talked about. Most graduation speeches have the same themes. Some message about hope. Thanking your friends and family, the importance of following your passion, and perhaps a call to change the world for the better. But this graduation season has felt a little different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gloria Caulfield:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The rise of artificial intelligence is the next industrial revolution.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alan Montecillo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There have been several videos of students booing commencement speakers when they mention AI. These videos have gone viral.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eric Schmidt:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Time magazine selected its person of the year for 2025. And it was this time, it was the architects of artificial intelligence. Interesting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Scott Borschetta:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> AI is rewriting production as we sit here. I know it, deal with it. Like I said, it’s a tool. Hey, like I said. You can hear me now or you can pay me later.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alan Montecillo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Today’s college graduates were in school when ChatGPT was first released in late 2022. They’ve seen it change their classrooms. Today, three recent graduates in the Bay Area tell us how they really feel about AI and about their futures.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ellena Simentel: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Ellena Simentel. I graduated with my master’s in kinesiology from San Francisco State.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kinesiology is the study of muscle movement. It’s very interdisciplinary, so there’s kind of a lot of different aspects in the field. So we do like sports psychology. You can go into physical therapy, athletic training, occupational therapy. I wanted to be a physical therapist. I’ve been to a little bit more recently. So I did focus mostly on like muscle physiology classes and that types of things. But now I think I wanna go more into a little bit more of the psychological motivational side, either doing some kind of city planning that has to do with getting people moving, or maybe even working for some type of nonprofit like Girls on the Run or things that get people active.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So even in undergrad we take our core class which is like one of the classes that teaches you like how to read and write in the field of kinesiology and that type of thing and midway through the semester I want to say this was like 2023. Our professor had actually changed the entire course of the class to focus on AI because it had like kind of just come out and she was like you And all of us at that point were kind of like, oh, you know, like, it’ll come and go, it is what it is. But what’s funny sitting back and looking at it now, it’s like, I feel like she really changed the class for a reason. I think it helped a lot of us just kind of get a grasp on what is AI, how to use it, the advantages maybe and some of the disadvantages. And so I obviously only took that class once, but I hope that they continue to do that for that class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s good to have immediate feedback, right? That’s, I think, one of the biggest advantages as a student. You don’t have to wait for your professor. It’s very individualized and you can really use it to fix specific things in your writing, for example, like writing essays. I think it’s a great tool to make you sound professional, help fix your grammar, maybe help you with the formatting. Um, the problem and the drawback is just sometimes it takes over your thinking. You it’s, it’s very easy to just put something in and be like, okay, now write me an essay, but there’s no thought that goes into that. There’s no critical thinking that goes in to that. Um, and at the end of the day, like it’s kind of taking away from the learning itself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m definitely less worried than other fields. I think there’s some careers in kinesiology, like if you wanted to be an athletic trainer or maybe like a personal trainer, there’s definitely a chance that AI could swoop in and take some of your clients. You can ask for a workout routine on ChatGPT so easily. However, The motivational aspect that comes with kinesiology and sports psychology that we learn with our degree I think is more helpful than talking to something online and just kind of having that like one-on-one human support is a lot more personalized. For example, like I worked in the athletic training department for a little bit and you can feel the difference in muscle when like a muscle is tense and you can kind with tell. What it needs, AI is not gonna be hands-on like that. And so having that human interaction in this field specifically is really helpful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I will say though that there’s just so much negativity around it and it’s kind of hard to take yourself out of the online discourse. My friend works out in this athletic studio with some of these tech guys and they talk the pros and the cons and like how people are being let go and and you know But at the same time, maybe there’s some jobs that AI should take over. Do people really need to be coding all day every day sitting on a computer? Maybe there’s things that humans shouldn’t be doing, like computer work all day. Maybe we need to go back outside.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m looking forward to seeing what’s out there, right? I live in San Francisco currently and I can’t really see myself. Moving away anytime soon. I think there’s just so much to experience and so many people to meet. Global pandemic, like I was in college, I was taking like 20 units a semester. Every semester I was summer classes, winter classes, and I really chased the academic route. I just turned 24 and I have my master’s and I don’t think a lot of people can say that. And so I think now kind of like finding what it is exactly that I want to do with it and kind of just getting more experience in the field is really exciting to me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ada He: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Ada He, and I’m currently a fourth year student at UC San Diego set to graduate on June 14th. My hometown is San Jose in the Bay Area, and I’m currently studying cognitive science with a specialization in machine learning and neural computation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So just to boil down to simple terms, it’s basically the study of intelligence, and it’s super duper relevant for machine learning, understanding these computational models of intelligence. The reason that I chose it and specifically the machine learning and neural computation track was because I think in high school I knew that I was curious about technology but I was also curious about more so the neuroscience and psychology side of things. And so I think I was kind of struck by this idea of like what is intelligence, how can we model it computationally and I think at the time even then there were starting to be like these buzzwords around ML and like AI and how this is going to be the next big thing of the future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so… Very practical future-oriented parents were like, you, our child, should definitely study something related to technology. And I was like, well, I’m not quite sure, so let me pick this broader major that has to do with technology, but also kind of has to do more with like the philosophy and the psychology and like the ethics of what these systems are.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think when I first started in college, basically the only place that I was hearing about machine learning, artificial intelligence as a whole was through theory in my coursework. But I think all of it was very much creative and like human driven. I think where I really started hearing about these AI tools that were in mass production was during my second year of college. So I think in that time, that was when ChatGPT was sort of like released to Apollo can never start using it and it became like the big thing. And suddenly it felt like everyone was talking about chatgbc like, oh hey, it’s pretty smart, it can do all these things. In my third year of college then, like after the summer when we came back to school, then it was taking off and everyone was using it in their classes, everyone’s like asking it questions, and they were using it to code in my programming classes, they were asking it for essay advice, and then I think that was when I started to think like wait, isn’t that an academic integrity violation and then so is AI just being used to like help us cheat now? Started out in this very humanistic direction, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was using AI as a tool to investigate these hypotheses and to see if I could get it to predict the patterns that I could predict. They were supposed to be these helpful tools that would help us diagnose bigger problems that were facing people. I’ve heard of applications of AI to chart patterns of climate change. So in my head, I just thought AI and ML had so much potential to be used for good. With ChatGPT, I know it’s like- There’s so much progress now going on in the area of large language models that I wonder if the other areas of AI and other use cases are being neglected. This seems like all research is funneling into how these large language models can help us replace white collar jobs. And I’m like, when did that become the focus of artificial intelligence and machine learning?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think I’ve been searching for a full-time job since January. As a student who is looking for a white collar job, it’s been very very very distressing to hear all the discourse that AI is meant to replace the work that I’ve spent four years studying. I think I honestly lost track by half to have applied for more than 300 jobs at this point. Just knowing that like the odds of getting a job are so slim even if you do get a callback and then seeing the number of callbacks I’m getting compared to the number applications I put out, that is kind of insane to me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do have summer jobs lined up. I’m currently like a student employee at the UC San Diego library. And I think like I’ve been really fortunate to have that environment because working for the web team there feels very meaningful since the work we do is like all done by hand. We have a very intentional design approach and the goal of all the work that I put out there is to serve the student body.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think everything that I’ve made there has made me like feel good and I don’t like feel as much like moral confusion when I think about continuing that work this summer. But that rule runs until September, so I know that I have wiggle rooms trying to figure things out somewhat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every generation has faced its demons and maybe the world of AI slop these like powerfully generative tools are kind of one of the demons that my generation has to face in the sense that we have to figure out where it fits into our lives and where it fits into workflows without compromising our morals because they might be here to stay. And then we also have to figure out how to deal with them in our daily, day-to-day work, because that’s probably gonna be an inseparable part of it, whether we like it or not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aaron Kim: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Aaron Kim. I graduated from UC Berkeley with a major in political science. I came in through the community college route and I started community college in 2019. So I had a couple of years to see like at least in community college, like what higher education was like before AI, then it dropped. And then I saw everyone kind of like scrambling to react to it. It was really interesting watching the different ways professors would try to handle it. Some of them just had like a no AI policy. Others had like a, you have to use AI policy. My gosh, yeah. I remember really early on, there was a professor that told me that like, or that told the class that don’t use AI. I can tell if you use AI because it’ll take your essay, put it in ChatGPT and ask it if it wrote it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s been a bit of a consensus that’s settled around AI, where professors just kind of understood that it’s here. So they got more specific on how we’re supposed to use it. So they’re like, oh, you can use it as a writing assistant. You can use as to help start your research, but don’t use it a source and don’t make it do all your writing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I know some people that are really hardline against it, I kind of agree with them for the most part. Like I think that AI especially, it’s not very sustainable. I feel like it’s sometimes people over-rely on it, which I’ve seen a lot. But I’ve also seen it level the playing field, especially for like ESL speakers. Sometimes I’ll see people who are like in higher education and they’re like not speaking English as a first language I I remember before AI they were excuse my language, but they were basically just shit out of luck. They were gonna be judged the same as like a native English speaker and like sometimes like it just like people were not nice about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I’m like a first-gen college student, so I I just kind of went to college because I don’t know, I didn’t really know why I was going. I just did it. I’m not one of those people that was like, oh yeah, I’m gonna be a doctor or a lawyer or a dentist. I ended up doing a lot of stuff in the union world and the labor world and like the community organizing world, which is why I think AI has affected me a little less personally, like a little less directly because none of the jobs that I was really looking for are really AI exposed as much.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luckily I’m one of these people, but I do think the implementation of AI in the economy has like, I’ve received a lot of the downwind effects. I think a lot tasks are having AI implemented into it. And because of that, I think there’s just less need for a lot of entry level positions that existed in the past. My friends and I joke about it being a “nepo economy” right now, because there’s just like, nobody’s getting jobs through applications, at least not a lot. It’s just all like, you have to know somebody and that’s how you’re getting jobs. I’m still trying to really figure out what direction I want to go for that. But right now I’m just like trying to find something in social impact, you know, nonprofits or unions, um, which is just because that’s like, you know, where my heart was at during college. And that’s where a lot of my experience was at. But yeah, at this point, I think I just kind of have to try to keep an open mind.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just don’t really think this sort of like innovation is really helping most people in a way that’s really substantial. Like I feel like, yeah, it’s like making things more convenient for a lot of us in like really minor ways, but I just feel like, like, was this all necessary? But it’s like here and we can’t like press, there’s no undo button for things like this, so I guess I just kind of have to adapt. Luckily, in terms of my personal career trajectory, it still feels pretty peripheral. Because a lot of the organizations I’m interested in working for are concerned with working people-centered kind of policies, I think mass, uncritical, enthusiastic adoption of AI is just something that hopefully a lot them just wouldn’t do. Like how would you feel if you’re like working and your union rep is like a chat GPT, like an iPad on the like a little thing that rolls around and tries to get you to sign union cards, right? Like that’s kind of something that AI can never take away. It’s like, because of so much of organizing job or so much organizing is based on building trust human to human, you know? And that’s just something AI can ever do…I hope!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Ellena Simentel, Ada He, and Aaron Kim. This episode was cut down and edited by me, and producer Jessica Kariisa. It was also produced by Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Additional support from Pauline Bartoloni. Music courtesy of Audio Network. Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you want to get in touch with us at The Bay, send us an email at TheBay@KQED.org.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Bay is a production of KQED Public Media in San Francisco. You can help power our show by becoming a member at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alan Montecillo, in for Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey! It’s Morgan again. You can listen to more of The Bay wherever you get your podcasts! We’ll be back next week with a brand new episode of Close All Tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "The $55B Deal That Has Sims Players Worried",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When shareholders of gaming giant Electronic Arts approved an acquisition of the company by a group that includes Jared Kushner’s private equity firm and the Saudi Public Investment Fund late last year, it rocked the entertainment industry. The sale worth an estimated $55 billion sent the player community of the EA-owned game The Sims scrambling, afraid that a game known as a haven for LGBTQ+ expression might be changed for the worse. In this second part of our exploration of the inclusive history of The Sims franchise, we dive into what the deal might mean for the game, how it’s reshaping the future of the industry, and why a popular Sims streamer is ready to walk away from the game in protest.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7131851733\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/lilsimsie\">Kayla Sims\u003c/a>, Twitch streamer and YouTuber known as “lilsimsie”\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.twitch.tv/zefrine/\">Zefrine\u003c/a>, Twitch streamer and organizer with The Players Alliance\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Loel Phelps, senior game design director at Maxis\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jessica Croft, senior designer at EA on The Sims 4 \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12083135/bay-area-gamers-rally-against-electronic-arts-55-billion-acquisition\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Area Gamers Rally Against Electronic Arts’ $55 Billion Acquisition\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/-gaming-is-the-new-oil-how-the-ea-buyout-diverges-from-the-traditional-playbook-\">‘Gaming is the new oil:’ How the EA buyout ‘diverges from the traditional playbook’\u003c/a> — Nicole Carpenter, \u003ci>Game Developer\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://aftermath.site/rep-maxwell-frost-lilsimsie-stream-ea-saudi-arabia-interview/\">Congressman Teams Up With Popular Sims Streamer To Oppose Saudi Purchase Of EA\u003c/a> — Nathan Grayson, \u003ci>\u003ci>Aftermath\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/us-representative-maxwell-frost-voices-protest-over-saudi-buyout-of-ea\">US representative Maxwell Frost protests Saudi buyout of EA\u003c/a> — Diego Argüello, \u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Game Developer\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/games/816750/the-sims-ea-buyout-content-creator-program-departures-lilsimsie\">Sims streamers are distancing themselves from EA, but for some the choice is hard\u003c/a> — Ash Parrish\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>,\u003ci> The Verge\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://simscommunity.info/2026/06/17/ea-advertisement-brands-history/\">EA Advertisement Isn’t New: A Look Back At The Sims’ History With Brands (And What Comes Next)\u003c/a> — Callum Bowyer,\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci> Sims Community\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://cepr.net/publications/electronic-arts-and-private-equity/\">Private Equity’s EA Takeover: Corruption, Contradictions, and Exploitation\u003c/a> — Daniel Stone, \u003ci>Center for Economic and Policy Research\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sul Sul! That’s “hello” in Simlish. This is the second part of our deep dive into the queer history of The Sims. Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a Tabbie or a Tab Head or part of the Tab Hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us! Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Audio from Players Alliance demonstration]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There is a med pack in my backpack, so if anyone like, tweaks their ankle or falls or something, in this lower pouch there is a second pouch, you’ll find all sorts of medical stuff in there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In early May, a colorful group of gamers assembled in a grocery store parking lot in Redwood City, California — preparing to march on the headquarters of video game giant Electronic Arts. They called it a “raid,” which, in gaming terms, means a big battle with the intention of taking down the boss. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Audio from Players Alliance demonstration]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This has concluded your safety brief. All right, woo! We did it! And then once you’re here, everybody look at me. We’re just going to grab a quick photo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a small group — maybe a dozen — but passionate. They’re part of an organization called The Players Alliance. They pulled up in elaborate costumes, with some wearing plumbobs, the gems from The Sims. Some wore the more common green ones, which float above the heads of happy Sims. But several in the group donned red plumbobs — typically seen on unhappy Sims, which is an iconic way to express anger toward The Sims’ parent company.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The group had gathered to protest the $55 billion deal that would take EA private and transfer ownership to a group of investors that includes a firm led by Jared Kushner and Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund. The Players Alliance created an online petition addressed to U.S. Secretary Scott Bessent, calling on him to block the buyout. They had over 70,000 signatures by that point, printed on a comically long scroll. The plan? Rally other players, block the buyout, and, of course, stream the whole thing. Streamer and organizer, Kase Cosgrove, took the mic for much of the demonstration. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kase Cosgrove: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woo! Here we go! Welcome everyone! We are here to… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They staged a boss fight, which involved taking down giant cardboard heads of the guys in charge of the buyout. Picture a huge Jared Kushner cutout surrounded by disapproving gamers. Then, they turned to a cutout of EA CEO Andrew Wilson. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Audio from Players Alliance demonstration]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Traitor! Traitor! Traitor! He’s betraying you, he’s betraying us, he’s betraying the workers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then came the big finale. The group unfurled the massive roll of paper printed with a portion of the 70,000 signatures. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Audio from Players Alliance demonstration]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the gaming community. These are the people that signed their name on the dotted line that joined us. And I need you to know, this isn’t all of them. We have over 70,000 signatures — something we did in two months, not two years. I also want to add that this is 50 feet, a thousand signatures — this would span over a half mile at this size. It’s simply too big. And we’re only growing… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Rachel… Better known as Zefrine. She’s an organizer and Sims creator who spoke about why she opposes the buyout. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Sims is a game about life and like, that’s everyone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kase Cosgrove: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sims, the game about life, they should use that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All colors, all walks of life. Yeah, like all of that. And that’s why we’re here today. Like me specifically, for a myriad of reasons, not only for the integrity of the industry, the jobs, the security, and the more that they continue to just treat it like the cash cow that it’s viewed to be by people who don’t care about us — the more that those spaces are going to become inaccessible to people who can no longer afford them. I love this… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many gamers are concerned about the EA buyout — fearing employee layoffs, decreasing quality of games, and aggressive monetization. But for Sims players, the threat feels especially personal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mivyard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As a bisexual, there weren’t a lot of games where you could just have anybody, romance anybody else. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a Sims creator who goes by Mivyard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mivyard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was really important for me, especially when I was younger. So this game has a really special place in my heart and just the thought of it being taken over by people who might want to censor that aspect and that representation for the community is really frightening. So, when the news about the buyout dropped, a lot of Simmers and Sims streamers were like, “Oh my god,” like, “What do we do?” Like, what action can we do to actually… have an effect on the situation? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does this deal really entail? If it goes through, what are the consequences on the gaming industry and its workers? And, is there anything that can stop it? Last week, we dove into the queer history of The Sims. Today, we’re looking at the present reality of EA and the future of this beloved game. Ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Picking up where we left off last week’s deep dive: let’s open another tab. What does The Sims mean to players? How many hours do you have logged on The Sims 4? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh dear, let me open it and I’ll find out. 10,522. And actually, it’s more than that, because I had like 1,700 hours in the Create A Sim demo as well — and then, now they’re all logged with The Sims 4 regular game, but doesn’t count those. So, it’s… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my god!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Probably like 12,000, which — yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. No, but like it’s my job, right? So it’s totally fine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Kayla Sims. She’s a Twitch streamer and YouTuber better known as LilSimsie. She has millions of followers. Almost every day, like five to six days a week, viewers tune in to watch her play cozy games. Think: farming sims like Stardew Valley, or social games like Animal Crossing. These are games that revolve more around creativity, slowing down, and exploring. It’s the complete opposite of first-person shooters like Call of Duty and Halo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla Sims playing Animal Crossing from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve been playing Animal Crossing for a couple of weeks now on this channel and unfortunately my island is still really, really ugly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cozy games aren’t necessarily low stakes. One of the most popular games of the genre is The Sims. It’s a game where a lot can go wrong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla Sims playing The Sims from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh well, we decorated the tree… No!!! Why is this happening? Oh my god, the tree’s on fire! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Sims community is so different from other gamer circles online. At the Game Developer Conference in 2023, Phillip Ring, an executive producer for The Sims 4, gave a talk on developing DEI content in games. He cited a demographic study conducted by The Sims team. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Phillip Ring from GDC Vault website]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">43% of our audience identify as members of the LGBTQIA+ community. And 38% of audience are people of color. That’s far exceeding traditional gaming demographics on these dimensions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And 64% of Sims players are cis women. 17% are gender fluid or trans. Just over 20% are cis men, which is incredibly rare in gaming, an industry that’s long been marketed to men. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Phillip Ring from GDC Vault website]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a tremendous testament to the progress that we are making towards The Sims being a place where all players can represent themselves and see the world as they imagine it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that sometimes gaming gets a bad reputation. People think about horrible hate speech being spewed in voice chats and stuff, but The Sims is just not like that. I think that actually a lot of marginalized folks kind of flock to The Sims because it is so welcoming and so accepting. And so, it’s just a really wholesome, wonderful place to be. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obviously it’s heavily made up by a lot queer folks, a lot people from the LGBTQ+ community are in The Sims community. There’s a lot of women in The Sims community as well. I think it’s just in general kind of a different demographic from a lot of other really major games titles, especially games titles that have been around for this long. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What has The Sims meant to you throughout your life? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It might sound silly, but honestly, The Sims has meant everything to me. When I was a kid, I really had a hard time in middle school and high school. I was kind of having a lot of mental health struggles and then my dad got cancer, and I was really like, going through it when I was in school. And The Sims was a real escape for me back then — not just playing the game, but like the community as a whole. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was almost like a utopia, right? Like I could like escape into this game where everything was fine. And it was a creative outlet for me to like, work on building houses and making characters and like, telling stories and stuff. And it’s kind of, I think, shaped me now and shaped my hobbies and my interests to this day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like many Simmers, Kayla started playing The Sims as a kid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I finally managed to convince my parents to buy it for me after a long time of begging. I was like, “No, this is like named after us. We need to play it,” you know? “It’s fate.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In high school, Kayla started taking video production classes. It was the mid-2010s. Reaction videos and short form content hadn’t taken over yet. This was the golden age of YouTube. Gaming playthroughs and daily vlogs were blowing up. Kayla loved watching them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this is around the time that my dad was diagnosed with cancer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After months of being sick, her dad was diagnosed with an aggressive blood cancer. Kayla’s parents went to Tampa for treatment, leaving Kayla and her younger siblings with their grandparents, two hours away. And Kayla felt really alone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I was really looking, I think, for an outlet, and like, maybe also some community, because I was playing the game alone… And I think I was really like, kind of grasping to see if I could find some people that were like me and make some friends. So I started making videos just for fun and I really poured so much into it. I’ve spent all my free time playing the game and recording it and thinking about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At 16 years old, Kayla started posting videos of her attempt at completing the, “Sims 4: 100 Baby Challenge.” Basically, you have to birth and successfully raise 100 in-game babies. Once your Sim can no longer have babies, you pick an heir, get them pregnant, and keep going. The goal is to build a family tree with all 100 babies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla Sims playing The Sims from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi everybody and welcome back to Part 3… I think? Of Let’s Play The Sims 4: 100 Baby Challenge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It took Kayla five years to finish the challenge. To be fair, she was also making other videos about The Sims: reviews, playthroughs, speed builds — but still, it was five years of her life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla Sims playing The Sims from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I- It’s over. We- It’s done. We did it. Little did I know when I was 16 years old and starting this stupid challenge that I would be 21 when I finished it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the time it took Kayla to raise 100 in-game babies, her dad’s health stabilized, she built a huge following, and she found a community of fellow Simmers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I ended up making so many friends that are lifelong friends to this day, 10 years later. I was so shy and so anxious and to meet some of these other girls that were my same age, and they were also really shy and really anxious and having some similar mental health struggles, and they we’re also really into The Sims. And so, it was really, really powerful, I think, for me to make some friends that I felt like I could truly be myself with, because I don’t know if I had that in person and at school. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As her channel grew, Kayla started doing charity streams, fundraising for various causes. Her big one is an annual, month-long fundraising campaign for St. Jude’s Children’s Research Hospital. Just last month, she raised over a million dollars. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla’s livestream from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">999,000! Woo! Oh my god! One million. *screaming*\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Her dad often pops in for those streams. Fans call him PapaSimsie or LilDadsie. And every year, Kayla takes a break from playing The Sims while she and her mom shave her dad’s head, live on stream, as part of the fundraiser. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla’s livestream from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s embarrassed. Yeah. \u003cem>[laughing]\u003c/em> Of me? Of bald daddy? \u003cem>[more laughing]\u003c/em>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My dad’s kind of weird. I mean that in a good way. But, you know, he really hams it up for the camera. And I think that people enjoy that. He’s really gotten involved with some of those things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla’s livestream from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can call me bald daddy. Stop!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So now, the whole Sims family is also involved in Sims content. It’s the Simsie-verse. Over the years, Kayla started working directly with Maxis, which is owned by EA. Back in the day, the company flew out Sims creators to play test games early and give feedback directly to developers. It was mutually beneficial — the creators got early access footage that they got to post, and Maxis got to drum up some promotion for upcoming game content. A symbiotic relationship, if you will. In her reviews, Kayla’s been a pretty harsh critic of the pre-made buildings in the earlier Sims expansion packs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s one build that just, like, never ceases to amaze me, and it comes in Get Famous. It’s like this celebrity mansion. There’s five bathrooms. No toilets. There’s like space for a toilet. They’ve — clearly, they meant to put it there, and they just didn’t put one. Why?\u003cem> [laughs] \u003c/em>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The developers at Maxis were definitely keeping tabs on the criticism. So, they asked Kayla to work on a few builds for upcoming releases. She created three buildings for the expansion pack Snowy Escape, which came out in 2020. And then again, for another expansion pack a few years later. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s all to say that Kayla’s life had become completely intertwined with The Sims. I mean, it’s her last name! Her parents were involved. She built a career out of playing this game. These playthroughs and reviews and silly challenges paid her bills. And, she played it in her free time, too. The Sims had become her job, but it was still the safe space that it was for her as an anxious, lonely teenager. Which is why she was so heartbroken when news of the EA buyout went public. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I couldn’t even believe it, to be honest, and I was so, so sad and scared. I mean, like, tears have been shed over this by me, because I feel like they’re tearing something away from us, you know? It’s really frustrating to have something that has been such a safe space for so long be bought out by people that are not safe. And I think that a lot of Sims players kind of echo that same sentiment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we know that this is a $55 billion deal — a truly unfathomable amount of money. Beyond the staggering price tag… what does this buyout really entail? Game studios are sold and acquired all the time — why are players so concerned about this one in particular? We’re opening a tab on that in just a minute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Okay, after the break: the EA buyouts and The Players Alliance. Stick around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Time to open a new tab: the EA buyout, explained. In October, Kayla joins other major Sims creators in leaving the EA Creator Network. This is the official partnership program for The Sims, and it opens the doors to huge perks. Creators in the network get early access to game packs, an affiliate code to share with their followers, and invites to beta testing sessions and special events. Some creators in the network even get paid collaborations. Stepping down from the Creator Network means giving up a lot of opportunities for Simmers like Kayla. But, as she learned more about the buyout deal, she knew she couldn’t stay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Upon first seeing it, I was like, “I do not want this to happen, I hope that it will not go through, and I want people to be aware of what is going on.” I kind of in good conscience do not want to work with EA directly and like, support them behind the scenes or have any like, contractual obligation to them if this sale goes through. I had hoped that by a large creator like myself and also a bunch of other large Sims creators leaving the network, it would kind of take a huge stand and hopefully send signs to them about how much we do not want this to happen and how strongly we stand against it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the details of this deal. In September last year, EA announced that the brand and its catalog had been sold to an “investor consortium” in a $55 billion deal. This group of investors includes the tech-focused private equity firm Silver Lake, Jared Kushner’s Affinity Partners, and Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund. That’s the Saudi Sovereign Wealth Fund, led by Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, this deal alone could buy the entire music industry. I think that sometimes we forget just how big gaming is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The consortium didn’t publicly disclose the planned ownership breakdown. That part actually came from a filing with Brazil’s antitrust regulators — spotted by the Wall Street Journal. So, once EA is delisted from the NASDAQ, Affinity Partners will own just 1.1%, and Silver Lake will own 5.5%. The Saudi Public Investment Fund will own a whopping 93.4% of the company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And there’s a lot of concerns about censorship within The Sims, I think, also, because of those new owners that do not have a great track record with human rights. They actually have a direct track record of criminalizing LGBTQ+ expression. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Saudi Arabia, engaging in same-sex relationships is punishable by flogging, and in some cases, death. Gender expression is also criminalized. Multiple human rights reports note that it’s “illegal for men to behave like women,” and “dress in women’s clothes,” and vice versa. Publicly advocating for the rights of LGBTQ people is also illegal, and those who do? They also face arrest and imprisonment. Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund, PIF, already owned almost 10% of EA prior to the buyout. Now, PIF will own the vast majority of EA and its portfolio — including The Sims, a game that’s been a haven for queer players. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so a lot of queer players of The Sims are really, really worried about those new owners for that reason too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Sims team has addressed the concerns. In October, they posted a statement to the game’s official channels, thanking players for being part of the community. They said, “Our mission, values, and commitment remain the same. The Sims will always be a space where you can express your authentic self.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In our last episode, we talked to Loel Phelps, the senior design director for The Sims 4. As the self-described “shepherd of ideas” for the game, Loel has guided over a decade of updates and expansions to make The Sims more inclusive. I asked him about the concerns over how new ownership could change the game, particularly for queer players who found refuge in The Sims. Here’s what he wants players to know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Loel Phelps: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I believe in this team. The sec- like I said, the second I joined, I felt a very welcoming presence. I felt like there was a diverse group of people who are passionate creators, who have very different lived experiences from one another, just like everybody who’s here to play the game. So, inclusivity is foundational. It’s the lifeblood of who we are and the product we build. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why would Saudi Arabia, a notoriously repressive country, want anything to do with a company behind the most explicitly queer game on the market? Well… The Sims is just a tiny piece of EA’s portfolio. I mean, EA Sports is its own division. It’s huge. Saudi Arabia has been a major investor in e-sports and video games. By investing in gaming, PIF is diversifying the Saudi economy beyond petroleum, while also buying global cultural relevance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As one business professor put it in an interview with the industry news site, Game Developer, “Gaming is the new oil.” The ripple effects go way beyond diversity and inclusion. It could fundamentally change the gaming industry as we know it. Okay, lock in. You’re about to get a lot of details. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, the EA deal is the largest leveraged buyout in history. A leveraged buyout means that the buyer uses borrowed funds to acquire a company — almost like a mortgage. The buyer puts down the down payment and the bank finances the rest. Except, the buyer isn’t the one who has to pay it off. The company that was just bought does — using its own assets and revenues to pay off the debt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, $55 billion, right? The investment group that bought EA chipped in a collective $36 billion, but there’s almost $20 billion left. Where does that come from? Now we have a new player, JP Morgan Chase Bank, which financed the remaining $20 billion. Well, who’s going to pay back the bank? EA.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a massive deal that’s being financed by $20 billion in debt that EA is going to have to carry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, EA actually makes a ton of money. In the 2025 fiscal year, the company pulled in nearly $7.5 billion of revenue. But their profit — what’s left after paying business costs — was just over $1.1 billion. And as multiple financial experts and market analysts have warned us, EA is probably going to have to make some pretty significant changes to pay off $20 billion. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, they’re gonna need to pay that off quickly because the investors wanna make money. And people are really concerned about things like layoffs of a lot of the people that work at EA — possibly replacing them with AI, which would just ruin the heart and soul of the game. And it’s really scary, I think, as a step for the gaming industry as a whole. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Days after it agreed to the deal, EA published an employee FAQ assuring workers that, quote, “There will be no changes to your job, team, or daily work as a result of this transaction.” This FAQ was actually made public in an SEC filing. Multiple experts have said that EA will likely double down on their existing revenue streams — sports franchises like Madden, cash cow mobile games that revolve around in-app purchases, and microtransactions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re already pricing a lot of people out. And if we have this new standard set — because now it’s the norm — I really am worried about it getting even worse and preventing people from being able to play these games. I worry about the kids of the future being able play things like this because the prices are just so extreme and it’s only going to get worse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Simmers have already complained of changes. In March, The Sims 4 unveiled the Marketplace, a virtual store of Sims custom content created by other players. It essentially gives players a way to sell customized in-game clothes and furniture directly to other players. However, creators only take home 30% of their sales. EA gets the remaining 70%, and when it first launched, players could only buy this stuff using a special currency called “Moola” — which they had to buy with real-world money. Simmers weren’t thrilled about the microtransactions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of @goofylilshady playing The Sims 4 from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, if you thought this game was expensive, now guess what? It just got a little bit more expensive! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then just this month, EA quietly launched its new Advertising department, which will focus on integrating brand partnerships with other ads directly into gameplay. Now, for The Sims, this could look like brand collabs that the game has already done, like giving players free Coach bags in-game, or free IKEA furniture that looks just like the real IKEA furniture. It could also look like an unskippable pop-up ad that interrupts the game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, it’s not just about The Sims. Obviously my personal experience is with The Sims, because that’s my favorite game and this thing that I’ve been playing for so long, but it really does affect all games across the entire industry, even beyond just EA games. I think that a private equity buyout of this scale is completely unprecedented and will probably have ripple effects across the entire industry forever. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of sets the model for future buyouts, future private buyouts. It sets the model for potential mass layoffs and these like really big AI concerns that we have over replacing developers. And I’m really concerned about that aggressive monetization because already, games are so expensive. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Leaving the Creator Network alone wasn’t enough for Kayla. She wanted to do more. So, she joined The Players Alliance. And, what is that? Well, that brings us back to the protest — and to open a new tab: How are gamers fighting the EA buyout? You’ve actually gone further than just leaving the network and not promoting the new games — you joined The Players Alliance. What is that? What are they trying to achieve? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, The Players Alliance is a group of gamers that is working to help fight corporate greed, just in general, in the gaming industry — right now, a lot of talk about the EA buyout and ways that that impacts the gaming industry as a whole. So, that’s kind of a heavy focus of them at this current moment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Players Alliance is trying to gain signatures for its petition to block the deal. They’ve collected over 72,000 signatures so far. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, my friend Zefrine and I, we had kind of been talking a little bit about wanting to do something and wanting to do more, and I had been thinking privately about ways that I could try and get involved and do more and not… I didn’t really know where to start. Because I — you know, I’m just one person, like, I don’t know how to do something like this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You heard Zefrine at the top of this episode — during the rally outside EA’s headquarters. She’s one of the lead organizers for The Players Alliance, which she describes as a gamers’ union. Her dad was a union guy too, so she grew up among organizers. When she heard about the buyout, she knew she had to get involved and that she could leverage her platform to get the word out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kayla and I are actually very close friends. And… It kind of gives me chills to talk about it, but we both had a dream the same night that we did a livestream together — like the same night. And then I just decided, I was like, “You know what? I’m just going to see, how stupid can we get? How silly, goofy can we get? Let’s shoot for the stars.” And then we… She said, “Are you kidding me? We have… Like, I had the same dream last night!” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zefrine had been working with The Players Alliance, and she kind of had this idea to work with a Congress member, and like, reach out to them and ask them to maybe do a stream with us or like, to speak more openly about this. And fortunately, I have- my congressman, Maxwell Frost, had already signed an open letter in Congress about the deal and so we felt like that was actually a really, kind of kismet opportunity to try and reach out to his team. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maxwell Frost is the first Gen Z member of Congress. He’s known for being more… online than his colleagues. He’s more in the know. And it helps that he’s already a gamer himself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think, what better of a person to reach an audience like that — like, he’s young, he’s in touch, he’s understanding of like, what’s going on with things, and his voice is so powerful. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With The Players Alliance, they organized a live stream with the Congressman, back in April. Here’s the setup: Zefrine acted as a moderator, taking audience questions and passing them on to Kayla and Maxwell. Like, a guided fireside chat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Begin clip of Players Alliance livestream]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Maxwell Frost:\u003c/strong> Saudi Arabia is essentially trying to acquire every part of gaming you can think of. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s going to put us in a really tough position in terms of national security, in terms of censorship and what that government believes, and in terms of the workers who create the games as well. So, I really think the FTC needs to step in here. They can sue to stop the merger. The Department of Justice can also sue to stop the mergers as well. I think there’s so many reasons why they need to do it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Kayla Sims:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I completely agree. And I hate to interrupt you, but how is your energy looking in the game, and maybe we should go to bed? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Maxwell Frost:\u003c/strong> \u003cem>[laughing]\u003c/em> My energy’s kinda low and it’s really dark. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[End clip]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this whole discussion happened while they played Stardew Valley. Zefrine said they picked this game for a reason. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stardew Valley — it’s an indie smash hit, and I think it’s just so comfy and cozy and approachable, and it’s made by one guy. And I think, it’s really important, especially among all this, to highlight the amazing things that can be done. You know, when you let your developers pour their hearts into something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We kind of wanted to make it really approachable for the viewer and like, make it something that was similar enough to my regular content that maybe it wouldn’t just be a click-off like, “Oh, who’s this random guy she’s talking to? I don’t need to watch this.”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I was going to ask like about the livestream itself. It really cracked me up watching Maxwell Frost explain like, how the downfall of democracy with foreign involvement while also trying to break open a geode, because you guys are playing Stardew Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of the Players Alliance livestream from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, can we open the geode? Yeah, okay. If you come back to like where the cabins are, you can follow me, I’ll show you where Clint is. Clint? Clint… Nice, dude, Clint is the guy that opens the geodes? Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Leading up to that and going into it, I was like, “I’m not equipped to be talking to a Congress member.” Like, I just play video games. But he is so nice, and he was so excited about the game as well. It’s really funny to watch the video back, and he’s like so locked in, like staring at his screen while he’s talking. It’s really fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But yeah, it was amazing that he offered to join us, and I felt like he had a lot of really great things to say about how it was working and what people can do to get involved. I think that it inspired a lot of people to sign the petition that we’ve been trying to share. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. So let’s talk about the petition itself. What is the goal of it? What are you trying to bring awareness to? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, the petition itself, is to the Secretary of the Treasury. And the ultimate goal is to hopefully have him stop the deal because he has the power to block it. But I think even beyond that, having a massive petition with so many signatures, really sends signs to EA and to the new buyers about how much the community opposes it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that because we have so many really valid concerns about national security and data security of Americans — this would be a foreign monarchy having almost complete control over a company that has hundreds of millions of people buying their games, it’s one of the biggest entertainment industries in America — and so the hope is that because of those concerns, we can get the government to help prevent the deal from going through. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kayla has hoped that lawmakers will at least be able to stall the deal. Nearly 50 members of Congress signed a letter to FTC Chair Andrew Ferguson — calling for a thorough review into the labor market consequences of the buyout. The House Judiciary Committee opened a probe into Jared Kushner’s quote, “foreign entanglements and staggering conflicts of interests,” AKA, his financial ties to Saudi Arabia. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, there’s renewed scrutiny of the buyout now, thanks to his involvement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The deal is expected to close by the end of this fiscal quarter — so, sometime this summer, if not by the end of the month. Regardless of whether the deal goes through, Sims creators who continue to promote the game have been bombarded with questions from followers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ahead of the Players Alliance collab with Congressman Frost, the Sims team reached out to members of the EA Creator Network over Discord. The messages were private, but screenshots quickly leaked online. They said the team was aware of the planned livestream and included guidance on how creators could answer their followers’ questions about the buyout. The message also said, quote, “There’s no expectation for you to engage with or respond to this conversation. You will always be free to express your honest opinions, but it’s also completely okay if you’d prefer to step back from the conversation entirely.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For months, Simmers like Kayla and Zefrine have been grappling with what it means to disentangle themselves from a game that’s meant so much to them. What does that even look like? Alright, we have time to open one last tab, right? The Sims creator dilemma. Many high-profile Sims creators left the EA Creator Network, but Zefrine decided to stay, even though she’s one of the lead organizers for the Players Alliance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I try to keep them relatively compartmentalized. Obviously, because I have like my contract and I respect that contract — it’s been like this huge goal for me to be in the Creator Network and be a part of that. And I think that in every company, no matter where you are, you still need good people that are willing to advocate for it from within. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some people choose to step away because they feel like their power is that way, but I’m not afraid to be noisy or outspoken about certain things. And um, I talk to my community, I see things online, and then I… advocate directly to the people who make the game, and I think that’s a really powerful thing. So that’s personally what I have chosen to do. And I’m still like continuing to play it because it can get quite complicated for like a lot of people, but it’s something I’ve enjoyed since I was eight years old. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it truly was like, it saved my life to be fully honest with you. Um, and… It allowed me to discover like, queer representation within myself and like those things like through storytelling or through building. It’s just such a powerful outlet. I’m using my voice and my platform that I’ve been gifted by this community essentially, to make sure that that integrity stays in place. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While she stayed in the network, Zefrine has also been very involved in organizing protests and collecting signatures. And then there’s Kayla. She’s been criticized for continuing to make Sims content, even after she left the EA network. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that for anyone on YouTube, it’s kind of impossible to just like, quit cold turkey with your bread and butter. Like, I think that that’s really a turnoff to your entire audience and I don’t think that it’s practical. So, from day one, my goal was to start incorporating more other games onto my YouTube channel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She plays Stardew Valley and Animal Crossing and a new game called Paralives. It’s an indie game that’s very similar to The Sims. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s been scary, I think, because I was nervous, again, that people wouldn’t care… But it’s been fun for me to experiment a little bit — because I kind of have like a format. I sort of know what it takes to make a good Sims video, but I don’t really know what is takes to make a video about some of these other games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But when Kayla does return to The Sims, she follows some new rules she set for her channel. She hasn’t been reviewing or promoting any of the newer packs or game content. In fact, she hasn’t being buying them at all. She’s hesitant to even speak negatively about any of newer stuff because it’ll bring attention to a company that she refuses to financially support. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like, her current Sims content is a time capsule of Sims releases up until 2025. So much of Kayla’s identity is tied up in The Sims — like fundraising with her dad, working with Maxis, and meeting so many of her best friends through the game. I mean, this is someone who has like, 12,000 hours in the game — her last name is literally Sims. And she admitted that she does really miss it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love The Sims so much and like, seeing this new content come out and like for example, when the most recent expansion pack came out and I chose not to play it and not to review it — that’s the first time in like 15 years that I haven’t played new Sims content and that made me really sad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, I love the game. I want to continue to play the game, I want continue to support the game, I want The Sims to exist because I think it’s such an important pillar of the gaming community. There’s nothing else like it in the entire world, and it’s so special, and I wish so desperately that I could feel comfortable continuing to support it, but it just feels morally wrong at this point. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No matter what happens with EA, and the buyout, and the Saudi investment in the gaming industry, the Sims team has made a lot of assurances that the game won’t change. Well, the microtransactions have been amped up, but the game is still as queer and inclusive as it was last year, before EA shareholders approved the buyouts. Last episode, we talked to Jessica Croft, a senior designer for The Sims. When I asked her about the player concerns we laid out in this episode, here’s what she said. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Croft: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re still the same team we’ve always been. We are the same folks that made the sexual orientation update, that made pronouns update, that fought for diversity and representation throughout our long history. Our values haven’t changed. Like, we still believe the exact same things we’ve always believed. And I could also say that — I could claim this till I’m blue in the face, and you might still not believe me — I would say don’t trust our words, trust our actions. Watch what we do next, watch the next few years of releases, and take from that the understanding that we haven’t changed, we still hold the same values. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, LGBTQ inclusion in games rarely feels revolutionary. It’s a given. Of course you can be a demon-blooded lesbian in Baldur’s Gate. It makes total sense that the main characters in Hades are canonically bisexual. Marry whoever you want in Stardew Valley. The Sims opened the door for these games to be… so gay. The buyout doesn’t change what The Sims has come to mean to so many queer people over the last 26 years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">From the very first accidental sapphic kiss at E3, this game has been a trailblazer for what it means to actually see yourself in a story. The future of EA may be uncertain, but the queer history of The Sims is undeniable. Will it stay this gay? I really hope so. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s it for this extra deep, deep dive on The Sims. Let me tell you — the tabs on this one almost got out of control. I cannot open another without crashing this episode. But if you’re hungry for more, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, happy pride. Let’s finally close all of these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. This episode was edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes producer, Maya Cueva, and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro V2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I remember I was trying to have my Sim adopt a baby, because I realized like, “Oh, you can adopt a baby. That’s cool. I want to try that.” And so, I clicked the button and then nothing happened. And I was like, “That’s weird. Let me do it again.” Nothing happened. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I thought, “That’s weird. Let me do it again.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, I adopted like six babies by accident, and then, I didn’t know that you had to take care of them, which, in hindsight is like, “Well, of course you do.” But you know, I was a kid, so I wasn’t taking care of them — and they all got taken away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em> Oh no. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and I, yeah, I harbored a lot of guilt about that back then. Now I kind of think it’s funny, but I was like, “What is this game? This is a nightmare!” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "When shareholders of gaming giant Electronic Arts approved an acquisition of the company by a group that includes Jared Kushner’s private equity firm and the Saudi Public Investment Fund late last year, it rocked the entertainment industry. The sale worth an estimated $55 billion sent the player community of the EA-owned game The Sims scrambling, afraid that a game known as a haven for LGBTQ+ expression might be changed for the worse. In this second part of our exploration of the inclusive history of The Sims franchise, we dive into what the deal might mean for the game, how it’s reshaping the future of the industry, and why a popular Sims streamer is ready to walk away from the game in protest.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When shareholders of gaming giant Electronic Arts approved an acquisition of the company by a group that includes Jared Kushner’s private equity firm and the Saudi Public Investment Fund late last year, it rocked the entertainment industry. The sale worth an estimated $55 billion sent the player community of the EA-owned game The Sims scrambling, afraid that a game known as a haven for LGBTQ+ expression might be changed for the worse. In this second part of our exploration of the inclusive history of The Sims franchise, we dive into what the deal might mean for the game, how it’s reshaping the future of the industry, and why a popular Sims streamer is ready to walk away from the game in protest.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7131851733\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/lilsimsie\">Kayla Sims\u003c/a>, Twitch streamer and YouTuber known as “lilsimsie”\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.twitch.tv/zefrine/\">Zefrine\u003c/a>, Twitch streamer and organizer with The Players Alliance\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Loel Phelps, senior game design director at Maxis\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jessica Croft, senior designer at EA on The Sims 4 \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12083135/bay-area-gamers-rally-against-electronic-arts-55-billion-acquisition\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Area Gamers Rally Against Electronic Arts’ $55 Billion Acquisition\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/-gaming-is-the-new-oil-how-the-ea-buyout-diverges-from-the-traditional-playbook-\">‘Gaming is the new oil:’ How the EA buyout ‘diverges from the traditional playbook’\u003c/a> — Nicole Carpenter, \u003ci>Game Developer\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://aftermath.site/rep-maxwell-frost-lilsimsie-stream-ea-saudi-arabia-interview/\">Congressman Teams Up With Popular Sims Streamer To Oppose Saudi Purchase Of EA\u003c/a> — Nathan Grayson, \u003ci>\u003ci>Aftermath\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/us-representative-maxwell-frost-voices-protest-over-saudi-buyout-of-ea\">US representative Maxwell Frost protests Saudi buyout of EA\u003c/a> — Diego Argüello, \u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Game Developer\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/games/816750/the-sims-ea-buyout-content-creator-program-departures-lilsimsie\">Sims streamers are distancing themselves from EA, but for some the choice is hard\u003c/a> — Ash Parrish\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>,\u003ci> The Verge\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://simscommunity.info/2026/06/17/ea-advertisement-brands-history/\">EA Advertisement Isn’t New: A Look Back At The Sims’ History With Brands (And What Comes Next)\u003c/a> — Callum Bowyer,\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci> Sims Community\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://cepr.net/publications/electronic-arts-and-private-equity/\">Private Equity’s EA Takeover: Corruption, Contradictions, and Exploitation\u003c/a> — Daniel Stone, \u003ci>Center for Economic and Policy Research\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sul Sul! That’s “hello” in Simlish. This is the second part of our deep dive into the queer history of The Sims. Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a Tabbie or a Tab Head or part of the Tab Hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us! Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Audio from Players Alliance demonstration]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There is a med pack in my backpack, so if anyone like, tweaks their ankle or falls or something, in this lower pouch there is a second pouch, you’ll find all sorts of medical stuff in there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In early May, a colorful group of gamers assembled in a grocery store parking lot in Redwood City, California — preparing to march on the headquarters of video game giant Electronic Arts. They called it a “raid,” which, in gaming terms, means a big battle with the intention of taking down the boss. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Audio from Players Alliance demonstration]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This has concluded your safety brief. All right, woo! We did it! And then once you’re here, everybody look at me. We’re just going to grab a quick photo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a small group — maybe a dozen — but passionate. They’re part of an organization called The Players Alliance. They pulled up in elaborate costumes, with some wearing plumbobs, the gems from The Sims. Some wore the more common green ones, which float above the heads of happy Sims. But several in the group donned red plumbobs — typically seen on unhappy Sims, which is an iconic way to express anger toward The Sims’ parent company.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The group had gathered to protest the $55 billion deal that would take EA private and transfer ownership to a group of investors that includes a firm led by Jared Kushner and Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund. The Players Alliance created an online petition addressed to U.S. Secretary Scott Bessent, calling on him to block the buyout. They had over 70,000 signatures by that point, printed on a comically long scroll. The plan? Rally other players, block the buyout, and, of course, stream the whole thing. Streamer and organizer, Kase Cosgrove, took the mic for much of the demonstration. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kase Cosgrove: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woo! Here we go! Welcome everyone! We are here to… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They staged a boss fight, which involved taking down giant cardboard heads of the guys in charge of the buyout. Picture a huge Jared Kushner cutout surrounded by disapproving gamers. Then, they turned to a cutout of EA CEO Andrew Wilson. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Audio from Players Alliance demonstration]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Traitor! Traitor! Traitor! He’s betraying you, he’s betraying us, he’s betraying the workers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then came the big finale. The group unfurled the massive roll of paper printed with a portion of the 70,000 signatures. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Audio from Players Alliance demonstration]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the gaming community. These are the people that signed their name on the dotted line that joined us. And I need you to know, this isn’t all of them. We have over 70,000 signatures — something we did in two months, not two years. I also want to add that this is 50 feet, a thousand signatures — this would span over a half mile at this size. It’s simply too big. And we’re only growing… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Rachel… Better known as Zefrine. She’s an organizer and Sims creator who spoke about why she opposes the buyout. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Sims is a game about life and like, that’s everyone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kase Cosgrove: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sims, the game about life, they should use that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All colors, all walks of life. Yeah, like all of that. And that’s why we’re here today. Like me specifically, for a myriad of reasons, not only for the integrity of the industry, the jobs, the security, and the more that they continue to just treat it like the cash cow that it’s viewed to be by people who don’t care about us — the more that those spaces are going to become inaccessible to people who can no longer afford them. I love this… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many gamers are concerned about the EA buyout — fearing employee layoffs, decreasing quality of games, and aggressive monetization. But for Sims players, the threat feels especially personal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mivyard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As a bisexual, there weren’t a lot of games where you could just have anybody, romance anybody else. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a Sims creator who goes by Mivyard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mivyard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was really important for me, especially when I was younger. So this game has a really special place in my heart and just the thought of it being taken over by people who might want to censor that aspect and that representation for the community is really frightening. So, when the news about the buyout dropped, a lot of Simmers and Sims streamers were like, “Oh my god,” like, “What do we do?” Like, what action can we do to actually… have an effect on the situation? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does this deal really entail? If it goes through, what are the consequences on the gaming industry and its workers? And, is there anything that can stop it? Last week, we dove into the queer history of The Sims. Today, we’re looking at the present reality of EA and the future of this beloved game. Ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Picking up where we left off last week’s deep dive: let’s open another tab. What does The Sims mean to players? How many hours do you have logged on The Sims 4? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh dear, let me open it and I’ll find out. 10,522. And actually, it’s more than that, because I had like 1,700 hours in the Create A Sim demo as well — and then, now they’re all logged with The Sims 4 regular game, but doesn’t count those. So, it’s… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my god!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Probably like 12,000, which — yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. No, but like it’s my job, right? So it’s totally fine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Kayla Sims. She’s a Twitch streamer and YouTuber better known as LilSimsie. She has millions of followers. Almost every day, like five to six days a week, viewers tune in to watch her play cozy games. Think: farming sims like Stardew Valley, or social games like Animal Crossing. These are games that revolve more around creativity, slowing down, and exploring. It’s the complete opposite of first-person shooters like Call of Duty and Halo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla Sims playing Animal Crossing from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve been playing Animal Crossing for a couple of weeks now on this channel and unfortunately my island is still really, really ugly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cozy games aren’t necessarily low stakes. One of the most popular games of the genre is The Sims. It’s a game where a lot can go wrong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla Sims playing The Sims from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh well, we decorated the tree… No!!! Why is this happening? Oh my god, the tree’s on fire! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Sims community is so different from other gamer circles online. At the Game Developer Conference in 2023, Phillip Ring, an executive producer for The Sims 4, gave a talk on developing DEI content in games. He cited a demographic study conducted by The Sims team. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Phillip Ring from GDC Vault website]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">43% of our audience identify as members of the LGBTQIA+ community. And 38% of audience are people of color. That’s far exceeding traditional gaming demographics on these dimensions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And 64% of Sims players are cis women. 17% are gender fluid or trans. Just over 20% are cis men, which is incredibly rare in gaming, an industry that’s long been marketed to men. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Phillip Ring from GDC Vault website]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a tremendous testament to the progress that we are making towards The Sims being a place where all players can represent themselves and see the world as they imagine it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that sometimes gaming gets a bad reputation. People think about horrible hate speech being spewed in voice chats and stuff, but The Sims is just not like that. I think that actually a lot of marginalized folks kind of flock to The Sims because it is so welcoming and so accepting. And so, it’s just a really wholesome, wonderful place to be. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obviously it’s heavily made up by a lot queer folks, a lot people from the LGBTQ+ community are in The Sims community. There’s a lot of women in The Sims community as well. I think it’s just in general kind of a different demographic from a lot of other really major games titles, especially games titles that have been around for this long. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What has The Sims meant to you throughout your life? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It might sound silly, but honestly, The Sims has meant everything to me. When I was a kid, I really had a hard time in middle school and high school. I was kind of having a lot of mental health struggles and then my dad got cancer, and I was really like, going through it when I was in school. And The Sims was a real escape for me back then — not just playing the game, but like the community as a whole. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was almost like a utopia, right? Like I could like escape into this game where everything was fine. And it was a creative outlet for me to like, work on building houses and making characters and like, telling stories and stuff. And it’s kind of, I think, shaped me now and shaped my hobbies and my interests to this day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like many Simmers, Kayla started playing The Sims as a kid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I finally managed to convince my parents to buy it for me after a long time of begging. I was like, “No, this is like named after us. We need to play it,” you know? “It’s fate.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In high school, Kayla started taking video production classes. It was the mid-2010s. Reaction videos and short form content hadn’t taken over yet. This was the golden age of YouTube. Gaming playthroughs and daily vlogs were blowing up. Kayla loved watching them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this is around the time that my dad was diagnosed with cancer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After months of being sick, her dad was diagnosed with an aggressive blood cancer. Kayla’s parents went to Tampa for treatment, leaving Kayla and her younger siblings with their grandparents, two hours away. And Kayla felt really alone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I was really looking, I think, for an outlet, and like, maybe also some community, because I was playing the game alone… And I think I was really like, kind of grasping to see if I could find some people that were like me and make some friends. So I started making videos just for fun and I really poured so much into it. I’ve spent all my free time playing the game and recording it and thinking about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At 16 years old, Kayla started posting videos of her attempt at completing the, “Sims 4: 100 Baby Challenge.” Basically, you have to birth and successfully raise 100 in-game babies. Once your Sim can no longer have babies, you pick an heir, get them pregnant, and keep going. The goal is to build a family tree with all 100 babies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla Sims playing The Sims from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi everybody and welcome back to Part 3… I think? Of Let’s Play The Sims 4: 100 Baby Challenge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It took Kayla five years to finish the challenge. To be fair, she was also making other videos about The Sims: reviews, playthroughs, speed builds — but still, it was five years of her life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla Sims playing The Sims from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I- It’s over. We- It’s done. We did it. Little did I know when I was 16 years old and starting this stupid challenge that I would be 21 when I finished it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the time it took Kayla to raise 100 in-game babies, her dad’s health stabilized, she built a huge following, and she found a community of fellow Simmers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I ended up making so many friends that are lifelong friends to this day, 10 years later. I was so shy and so anxious and to meet some of these other girls that were my same age, and they were also really shy and really anxious and having some similar mental health struggles, and they we’re also really into The Sims. And so, it was really, really powerful, I think, for me to make some friends that I felt like I could truly be myself with, because I don’t know if I had that in person and at school. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As her channel grew, Kayla started doing charity streams, fundraising for various causes. Her big one is an annual, month-long fundraising campaign for St. Jude’s Children’s Research Hospital. Just last month, she raised over a million dollars. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla’s livestream from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">999,000! Woo! Oh my god! One million. *screaming*\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Her dad often pops in for those streams. Fans call him PapaSimsie or LilDadsie. And every year, Kayla takes a break from playing The Sims while she and her mom shave her dad’s head, live on stream, as part of the fundraiser. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla’s livestream from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s embarrassed. Yeah. \u003cem>[laughing]\u003c/em> Of me? Of bald daddy? \u003cem>[more laughing]\u003c/em>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My dad’s kind of weird. I mean that in a good way. But, you know, he really hams it up for the camera. And I think that people enjoy that. He’s really gotten involved with some of those things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Kayla’s livestream from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can call me bald daddy. Stop!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So now, the whole Sims family is also involved in Sims content. It’s the Simsie-verse. Over the years, Kayla started working directly with Maxis, which is owned by EA. Back in the day, the company flew out Sims creators to play test games early and give feedback directly to developers. It was mutually beneficial — the creators got early access footage that they got to post, and Maxis got to drum up some promotion for upcoming game content. A symbiotic relationship, if you will. In her reviews, Kayla’s been a pretty harsh critic of the pre-made buildings in the earlier Sims expansion packs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s one build that just, like, never ceases to amaze me, and it comes in Get Famous. It’s like this celebrity mansion. There’s five bathrooms. No toilets. There’s like space for a toilet. They’ve — clearly, they meant to put it there, and they just didn’t put one. Why?\u003cem> [laughs] \u003c/em>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The developers at Maxis were definitely keeping tabs on the criticism. So, they asked Kayla to work on a few builds for upcoming releases. She created three buildings for the expansion pack Snowy Escape, which came out in 2020. And then again, for another expansion pack a few years later. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s all to say that Kayla’s life had become completely intertwined with The Sims. I mean, it’s her last name! Her parents were involved. She built a career out of playing this game. These playthroughs and reviews and silly challenges paid her bills. And, she played it in her free time, too. The Sims had become her job, but it was still the safe space that it was for her as an anxious, lonely teenager. Which is why she was so heartbroken when news of the EA buyout went public. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I couldn’t even believe it, to be honest, and I was so, so sad and scared. I mean, like, tears have been shed over this by me, because I feel like they’re tearing something away from us, you know? It’s really frustrating to have something that has been such a safe space for so long be bought out by people that are not safe. And I think that a lot of Sims players kind of echo that same sentiment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we know that this is a $55 billion deal — a truly unfathomable amount of money. Beyond the staggering price tag… what does this buyout really entail? Game studios are sold and acquired all the time — why are players so concerned about this one in particular? We’re opening a tab on that in just a minute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Okay, after the break: the EA buyouts and The Players Alliance. Stick around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Time to open a new tab: the EA buyout, explained. In October, Kayla joins other major Sims creators in leaving the EA Creator Network. This is the official partnership program for The Sims, and it opens the doors to huge perks. Creators in the network get early access to game packs, an affiliate code to share with their followers, and invites to beta testing sessions and special events. Some creators in the network even get paid collaborations. Stepping down from the Creator Network means giving up a lot of opportunities for Simmers like Kayla. But, as she learned more about the buyout deal, she knew she couldn’t stay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Upon first seeing it, I was like, “I do not want this to happen, I hope that it will not go through, and I want people to be aware of what is going on.” I kind of in good conscience do not want to work with EA directly and like, support them behind the scenes or have any like, contractual obligation to them if this sale goes through. I had hoped that by a large creator like myself and also a bunch of other large Sims creators leaving the network, it would kind of take a huge stand and hopefully send signs to them about how much we do not want this to happen and how strongly we stand against it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the details of this deal. In September last year, EA announced that the brand and its catalog had been sold to an “investor consortium” in a $55 billion deal. This group of investors includes the tech-focused private equity firm Silver Lake, Jared Kushner’s Affinity Partners, and Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund. That’s the Saudi Sovereign Wealth Fund, led by Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, this deal alone could buy the entire music industry. I think that sometimes we forget just how big gaming is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The consortium didn’t publicly disclose the planned ownership breakdown. That part actually came from a filing with Brazil’s antitrust regulators — spotted by the Wall Street Journal. So, once EA is delisted from the NASDAQ, Affinity Partners will own just 1.1%, and Silver Lake will own 5.5%. The Saudi Public Investment Fund will own a whopping 93.4% of the company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And there’s a lot of concerns about censorship within The Sims, I think, also, because of those new owners that do not have a great track record with human rights. They actually have a direct track record of criminalizing LGBTQ+ expression. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Saudi Arabia, engaging in same-sex relationships is punishable by flogging, and in some cases, death. Gender expression is also criminalized. Multiple human rights reports note that it’s “illegal for men to behave like women,” and “dress in women’s clothes,” and vice versa. Publicly advocating for the rights of LGBTQ people is also illegal, and those who do? They also face arrest and imprisonment. Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund, PIF, already owned almost 10% of EA prior to the buyout. Now, PIF will own the vast majority of EA and its portfolio — including The Sims, a game that’s been a haven for queer players. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so a lot of queer players of The Sims are really, really worried about those new owners for that reason too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Sims team has addressed the concerns. In October, they posted a statement to the game’s official channels, thanking players for being part of the community. They said, “Our mission, values, and commitment remain the same. The Sims will always be a space where you can express your authentic self.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In our last episode, we talked to Loel Phelps, the senior design director for The Sims 4. As the self-described “shepherd of ideas” for the game, Loel has guided over a decade of updates and expansions to make The Sims more inclusive. I asked him about the concerns over how new ownership could change the game, particularly for queer players who found refuge in The Sims. Here’s what he wants players to know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Loel Phelps: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I believe in this team. The sec- like I said, the second I joined, I felt a very welcoming presence. I felt like there was a diverse group of people who are passionate creators, who have very different lived experiences from one another, just like everybody who’s here to play the game. So, inclusivity is foundational. It’s the lifeblood of who we are and the product we build. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why would Saudi Arabia, a notoriously repressive country, want anything to do with a company behind the most explicitly queer game on the market? Well… The Sims is just a tiny piece of EA’s portfolio. I mean, EA Sports is its own division. It’s huge. Saudi Arabia has been a major investor in e-sports and video games. By investing in gaming, PIF is diversifying the Saudi economy beyond petroleum, while also buying global cultural relevance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As one business professor put it in an interview with the industry news site, Game Developer, “Gaming is the new oil.” The ripple effects go way beyond diversity and inclusion. It could fundamentally change the gaming industry as we know it. Okay, lock in. You’re about to get a lot of details. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, the EA deal is the largest leveraged buyout in history. A leveraged buyout means that the buyer uses borrowed funds to acquire a company — almost like a mortgage. The buyer puts down the down payment and the bank finances the rest. Except, the buyer isn’t the one who has to pay it off. The company that was just bought does — using its own assets and revenues to pay off the debt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, $55 billion, right? The investment group that bought EA chipped in a collective $36 billion, but there’s almost $20 billion left. Where does that come from? Now we have a new player, JP Morgan Chase Bank, which financed the remaining $20 billion. Well, who’s going to pay back the bank? EA.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a massive deal that’s being financed by $20 billion in debt that EA is going to have to carry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, EA actually makes a ton of money. In the 2025 fiscal year, the company pulled in nearly $7.5 billion of revenue. But their profit — what’s left after paying business costs — was just over $1.1 billion. And as multiple financial experts and market analysts have warned us, EA is probably going to have to make some pretty significant changes to pay off $20 billion. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, they’re gonna need to pay that off quickly because the investors wanna make money. And people are really concerned about things like layoffs of a lot of the people that work at EA — possibly replacing them with AI, which would just ruin the heart and soul of the game. And it’s really scary, I think, as a step for the gaming industry as a whole. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Days after it agreed to the deal, EA published an employee FAQ assuring workers that, quote, “There will be no changes to your job, team, or daily work as a result of this transaction.” This FAQ was actually made public in an SEC filing. Multiple experts have said that EA will likely double down on their existing revenue streams — sports franchises like Madden, cash cow mobile games that revolve around in-app purchases, and microtransactions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re already pricing a lot of people out. And if we have this new standard set — because now it’s the norm — I really am worried about it getting even worse and preventing people from being able to play these games. I worry about the kids of the future being able play things like this because the prices are just so extreme and it’s only going to get worse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Simmers have already complained of changes. In March, The Sims 4 unveiled the Marketplace, a virtual store of Sims custom content created by other players. It essentially gives players a way to sell customized in-game clothes and furniture directly to other players. However, creators only take home 30% of their sales. EA gets the remaining 70%, and when it first launched, players could only buy this stuff using a special currency called “Moola” — which they had to buy with real-world money. Simmers weren’t thrilled about the microtransactions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of @goofylilshady playing The Sims 4 from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, if you thought this game was expensive, now guess what? It just got a little bit more expensive! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then just this month, EA quietly launched its new Advertising department, which will focus on integrating brand partnerships with other ads directly into gameplay. Now, for The Sims, this could look like brand collabs that the game has already done, like giving players free Coach bags in-game, or free IKEA furniture that looks just like the real IKEA furniture. It could also look like an unskippable pop-up ad that interrupts the game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, it’s not just about The Sims. Obviously my personal experience is with The Sims, because that’s my favorite game and this thing that I’ve been playing for so long, but it really does affect all games across the entire industry, even beyond just EA games. I think that a private equity buyout of this scale is completely unprecedented and will probably have ripple effects across the entire industry forever. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of sets the model for future buyouts, future private buyouts. It sets the model for potential mass layoffs and these like really big AI concerns that we have over replacing developers. And I’m really concerned about that aggressive monetization because already, games are so expensive. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Leaving the Creator Network alone wasn’t enough for Kayla. She wanted to do more. So, she joined The Players Alliance. And, what is that? Well, that brings us back to the protest — and to open a new tab: How are gamers fighting the EA buyout? You’ve actually gone further than just leaving the network and not promoting the new games — you joined The Players Alliance. What is that? What are they trying to achieve? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, The Players Alliance is a group of gamers that is working to help fight corporate greed, just in general, in the gaming industry — right now, a lot of talk about the EA buyout and ways that that impacts the gaming industry as a whole. So, that’s kind of a heavy focus of them at this current moment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Players Alliance is trying to gain signatures for its petition to block the deal. They’ve collected over 72,000 signatures so far. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, my friend Zefrine and I, we had kind of been talking a little bit about wanting to do something and wanting to do more, and I had been thinking privately about ways that I could try and get involved and do more and not… I didn’t really know where to start. Because I — you know, I’m just one person, like, I don’t know how to do something like this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You heard Zefrine at the top of this episode — during the rally outside EA’s headquarters. She’s one of the lead organizers for The Players Alliance, which she describes as a gamers’ union. Her dad was a union guy too, so she grew up among organizers. When she heard about the buyout, she knew she had to get involved and that she could leverage her platform to get the word out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kayla and I are actually very close friends. And… It kind of gives me chills to talk about it, but we both had a dream the same night that we did a livestream together — like the same night. And then I just decided, I was like, “You know what? I’m just going to see, how stupid can we get? How silly, goofy can we get? Let’s shoot for the stars.” And then we… She said, “Are you kidding me? We have… Like, I had the same dream last night!” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zefrine had been working with The Players Alliance, and she kind of had this idea to work with a Congress member, and like, reach out to them and ask them to maybe do a stream with us or like, to speak more openly about this. And fortunately, I have- my congressman, Maxwell Frost, had already signed an open letter in Congress about the deal and so we felt like that was actually a really, kind of kismet opportunity to try and reach out to his team. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maxwell Frost is the first Gen Z member of Congress. He’s known for being more… online than his colleagues. He’s more in the know. And it helps that he’s already a gamer himself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think, what better of a person to reach an audience like that — like, he’s young, he’s in touch, he’s understanding of like, what’s going on with things, and his voice is so powerful. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With The Players Alliance, they organized a live stream with the Congressman, back in April. Here’s the setup: Zefrine acted as a moderator, taking audience questions and passing them on to Kayla and Maxwell. Like, a guided fireside chat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Begin clip of Players Alliance livestream]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Maxwell Frost:\u003c/strong> Saudi Arabia is essentially trying to acquire every part of gaming you can think of. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s going to put us in a really tough position in terms of national security, in terms of censorship and what that government believes, and in terms of the workers who create the games as well. So, I really think the FTC needs to step in here. They can sue to stop the merger. The Department of Justice can also sue to stop the mergers as well. I think there’s so many reasons why they need to do it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Kayla Sims:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I completely agree. And I hate to interrupt you, but how is your energy looking in the game, and maybe we should go to bed? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Maxwell Frost:\u003c/strong> \u003cem>[laughing]\u003c/em> My energy’s kinda low and it’s really dark. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[End clip]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this whole discussion happened while they played Stardew Valley. Zefrine said they picked this game for a reason. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stardew Valley — it’s an indie smash hit, and I think it’s just so comfy and cozy and approachable, and it’s made by one guy. And I think, it’s really important, especially among all this, to highlight the amazing things that can be done. You know, when you let your developers pour their hearts into something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We kind of wanted to make it really approachable for the viewer and like, make it something that was similar enough to my regular content that maybe it wouldn’t just be a click-off like, “Oh, who’s this random guy she’s talking to? I don’t need to watch this.”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I was going to ask like about the livestream itself. It really cracked me up watching Maxwell Frost explain like, how the downfall of democracy with foreign involvement while also trying to break open a geode, because you guys are playing Stardew Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of the Players Alliance livestream from YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, can we open the geode? Yeah, okay. If you come back to like where the cabins are, you can follow me, I’ll show you where Clint is. Clint? Clint… Nice, dude, Clint is the guy that opens the geodes? Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Leading up to that and going into it, I was like, “I’m not equipped to be talking to a Congress member.” Like, I just play video games. But he is so nice, and he was so excited about the game as well. It’s really funny to watch the video back, and he’s like so locked in, like staring at his screen while he’s talking. It’s really fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But yeah, it was amazing that he offered to join us, and I felt like he had a lot of really great things to say about how it was working and what people can do to get involved. I think that it inspired a lot of people to sign the petition that we’ve been trying to share. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. So let’s talk about the petition itself. What is the goal of it? What are you trying to bring awareness to? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, the petition itself, is to the Secretary of the Treasury. And the ultimate goal is to hopefully have him stop the deal because he has the power to block it. But I think even beyond that, having a massive petition with so many signatures, really sends signs to EA and to the new buyers about how much the community opposes it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that because we have so many really valid concerns about national security and data security of Americans — this would be a foreign monarchy having almost complete control over a company that has hundreds of millions of people buying their games, it’s one of the biggest entertainment industries in America — and so the hope is that because of those concerns, we can get the government to help prevent the deal from going through. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kayla has hoped that lawmakers will at least be able to stall the deal. Nearly 50 members of Congress signed a letter to FTC Chair Andrew Ferguson — calling for a thorough review into the labor market consequences of the buyout. The House Judiciary Committee opened a probe into Jared Kushner’s quote, “foreign entanglements and staggering conflicts of interests,” AKA, his financial ties to Saudi Arabia. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, there’s renewed scrutiny of the buyout now, thanks to his involvement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The deal is expected to close by the end of this fiscal quarter — so, sometime this summer, if not by the end of the month. Regardless of whether the deal goes through, Sims creators who continue to promote the game have been bombarded with questions from followers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ahead of the Players Alliance collab with Congressman Frost, the Sims team reached out to members of the EA Creator Network over Discord. The messages were private, but screenshots quickly leaked online. They said the team was aware of the planned livestream and included guidance on how creators could answer their followers’ questions about the buyout. The message also said, quote, “There’s no expectation for you to engage with or respond to this conversation. You will always be free to express your honest opinions, but it’s also completely okay if you’d prefer to step back from the conversation entirely.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For months, Simmers like Kayla and Zefrine have been grappling with what it means to disentangle themselves from a game that’s meant so much to them. What does that even look like? Alright, we have time to open one last tab, right? The Sims creator dilemma. Many high-profile Sims creators left the EA Creator Network, but Zefrine decided to stay, even though she’s one of the lead organizers for the Players Alliance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zefrine: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I try to keep them relatively compartmentalized. Obviously, because I have like my contract and I respect that contract — it’s been like this huge goal for me to be in the Creator Network and be a part of that. And I think that in every company, no matter where you are, you still need good people that are willing to advocate for it from within. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some people choose to step away because they feel like their power is that way, but I’m not afraid to be noisy or outspoken about certain things. And um, I talk to my community, I see things online, and then I… advocate directly to the people who make the game, and I think that’s a really powerful thing. So that’s personally what I have chosen to do. And I’m still like continuing to play it because it can get quite complicated for like a lot of people, but it’s something I’ve enjoyed since I was eight years old. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it truly was like, it saved my life to be fully honest with you. Um, and… It allowed me to discover like, queer representation within myself and like those things like through storytelling or through building. It’s just such a powerful outlet. I’m using my voice and my platform that I’ve been gifted by this community essentially, to make sure that that integrity stays in place. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While she stayed in the network, Zefrine has also been very involved in organizing protests and collecting signatures. And then there’s Kayla. She’s been criticized for continuing to make Sims content, even after she left the EA network. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that for anyone on YouTube, it’s kind of impossible to just like, quit cold turkey with your bread and butter. Like, I think that that’s really a turnoff to your entire audience and I don’t think that it’s practical. So, from day one, my goal was to start incorporating more other games onto my YouTube channel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She plays Stardew Valley and Animal Crossing and a new game called Paralives. It’s an indie game that’s very similar to The Sims. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s been scary, I think, because I was nervous, again, that people wouldn’t care… But it’s been fun for me to experiment a little bit — because I kind of have like a format. I sort of know what it takes to make a good Sims video, but I don’t really know what is takes to make a video about some of these other games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But when Kayla does return to The Sims, she follows some new rules she set for her channel. She hasn’t been reviewing or promoting any of the newer packs or game content. In fact, she hasn’t being buying them at all. She’s hesitant to even speak negatively about any of newer stuff because it’ll bring attention to a company that she refuses to financially support. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like, her current Sims content is a time capsule of Sims releases up until 2025. So much of Kayla’s identity is tied up in The Sims — like fundraising with her dad, working with Maxis, and meeting so many of her best friends through the game. I mean, this is someone who has like, 12,000 hours in the game — her last name is literally Sims. And she admitted that she does really miss it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love The Sims so much and like, seeing this new content come out and like for example, when the most recent expansion pack came out and I chose not to play it and not to review it — that’s the first time in like 15 years that I haven’t played new Sims content and that made me really sad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, I love the game. I want to continue to play the game, I want continue to support the game, I want The Sims to exist because I think it’s such an important pillar of the gaming community. There’s nothing else like it in the entire world, and it’s so special, and I wish so desperately that I could feel comfortable continuing to support it, but it just feels morally wrong at this point. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No matter what happens with EA, and the buyout, and the Saudi investment in the gaming industry, the Sims team has made a lot of assurances that the game won’t change. Well, the microtransactions have been amped up, but the game is still as queer and inclusive as it was last year, before EA shareholders approved the buyouts. Last episode, we talked to Jessica Croft, a senior designer for The Sims. When I asked her about the player concerns we laid out in this episode, here’s what she said. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Croft: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re still the same team we’ve always been. We are the same folks that made the sexual orientation update, that made pronouns update, that fought for diversity and representation throughout our long history. Our values haven’t changed. Like, we still believe the exact same things we’ve always believed. And I could also say that — I could claim this till I’m blue in the face, and you might still not believe me — I would say don’t trust our words, trust our actions. Watch what we do next, watch the next few years of releases, and take from that the understanding that we haven’t changed, we still hold the same values. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, LGBTQ inclusion in games rarely feels revolutionary. It’s a given. Of course you can be a demon-blooded lesbian in Baldur’s Gate. It makes total sense that the main characters in Hades are canonically bisexual. Marry whoever you want in Stardew Valley. The Sims opened the door for these games to be… so gay. The buyout doesn’t change what The Sims has come to mean to so many queer people over the last 26 years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">From the very first accidental sapphic kiss at E3, this game has been a trailblazer for what it means to actually see yourself in a story. The future of EA may be uncertain, but the queer history of The Sims is undeniable. Will it stay this gay? I really hope so. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s it for this extra deep, deep dive on The Sims. Let me tell you — the tabs on this one almost got out of control. I cannot open another without crashing this episode. But if you’re hungry for more, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, happy pride. Let’s finally close all of these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. This episode was edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes producer, Maya Cueva, and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro V2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I remember I was trying to have my Sim adopt a baby, because I realized like, “Oh, you can adopt a baby. That’s cool. I want to try that.” And so, I clicked the button and then nothing happened. And I was like, “That’s weird. Let me do it again.” Nothing happened. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I thought, “That’s weird. Let me do it again.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, I adopted like six babies by accident, and then, I didn’t know that you had to take care of them, which, in hindsight is like, “Well, of course you do.” But you know, I was a kid, so I wasn’t taking care of them — and they all got taken away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em> Oh no. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Sims: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and I, yeah, I harbored a lot of guilt about that back then. Now I kind of think it’s funny, but I was like, “What is this game? This is a nightmare!” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "a-queer-history-of-the-sims",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Did The Sims make you gay?” is a long-running joke among Sims players. For millions, \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> has been more than a video game — it’s been a place to experiment, tell stories, and explore identity. Long before LGBTQ representation became common in mainstream games, \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> allowed same-sex relationships, helping create a devoted queer fan base that reshaped what players expected from virtual worlds.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>In this episode, Morgan Sung talks with \u003cem>The Sims 4\u003c/em> senior designer Jessica Croft and Electronic Arts’ senior game design director Loel Phelps about the game’s unlikely emergence as one of the most queer-inclusive franchises in gaming. They explore the legendary story of how same-sex romance accidentally made it into the original game, the challenges of translating sexuality and gender into game systems, why so many LGBTQ players discovered their own identities in \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> long before they felt safe doing so in real life — and why some players are worried about where the game might be headed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC3392561231\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>Jessica Croft, senior designer and lead designer at EA on The Sims 4\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>Loel Phelps, senior game design director at Maxis\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/the-kiss-that-changed-video-games\">The Kiss That Changed Video Games\u003c/a> — Simon Parkin, \u003cem>The New Yorker\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pcgamer.com/unearthed-the-sims-design-docs-show-the-debate-over-same-sex-relationships/\">Unearthed The Sims design docs show the internal debate over same-sex relationships\u003c/a> — Steven Messner, \u003cem>PC Gamer\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi-HWyh0Ybk\">Did The Sims make you gay? – a video essay.\u003c/a> — Alexander Avila, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bricksmagazine.co.uk/2020/08/27/the-sims-knew-i-was-queer-before-i-did/\">The Sims Knew I Was Queer Before I Did \u003c/a>— Megan Elliot,\u003cem>BRICKS Magazine\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/games/2022/feb/22/gay-weddings-for-russia-how-the-sims-became-a-battleground-for-the-lgbtq-community\">Gay weddings for Russia: How The Sims became a battleground for the LGBTQ+ community \u003c/a>— Tom Regan, \u003cem>The Guardian\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://frvr.com/blog/news/the-sims-designer-says-that-the-series-diversity-is-critical-especially-at-times-like-now/\">The Sims designer says that the series’ diversity is “critical, especially at times like now” as the games must recognise “the fundamental truths of our humanity” to stay successful \u003c/a>— Lewis White, \u003cem>FIVR\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a tabby or a tab head or part of the tab hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us. Under our watch, every tab in the land will be closed. Eventually. I mean, I have like 15 open right now. Okay, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the other day, I got out of bed and I did my normal morning chores. Fed the chickens, watered my crops, and checked in on my sweet baby cow plant. He ate one of my friends last week, so I’m keeping him on a really strict feeding schedule so he doesn’t try it again. I kissed my wife goodbye before she left for her job as an undertaker, and then I started getting ready for my job as a Grim Reaper. I just got promoted to Soul Slayer, which is a pretty big deal. Lots of responsibility there. But, just as I was about to leave, the gnomes started spawning around my house again. They went around breaking all my stuff, and when I tried to stop them, they had the audacity to strike me with lightning. Just another typical day in The Sims.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This franchise has been wildly popular since the first Sims game came out 26 years ago. It’s like a virtual dollhouse. You control these dolls, called Sims, and help them fulfill goals, manage their needs, and interact with their world. I love it. For the last 14 years, my sister and I have shared an account just to play this game. And together, We’ve logged more than 6,000 hours in The Sims 4 alone. I’m kind of scared to check where we clocked in on The Sims 3. The game is constantly evolving and adapting to whatever the current culture is. And in addition to some very silly gameplay, The Sims has become this oasis for diversity and representation. In queer spaces, Sims players, also known as Simmers, love to ask each other this question. Did The Sims make you gay? Why is that, you may ask?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> Because it made a lot of people gay\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jessica Croft is a senior designer for The Sims 4. She’s had a hand in designing some of the features that make the game so unique, like the sexual orientation system. More on that later. The Sims is iconic because of its freedom. It lets players experience the game however they want. That freedom has given rise to a few distinct types of simmers. You might be a builder. Spending hours constructing and decorating complex architectural marvels. Maybe you’re a storyteller who plays the game like an eternal personal soap opera, or a completionist trying to get every possible achievement in the game. And at some point in their life, every Simmer has been a chaos agent, setting things on fire, ruining in-game relationships, even removing the ladder from their Sim’s pool so they get stuck and drown. You know. Playing God.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I would say it’s, to me, a storytelling tool. So you’re playing this game about everyday life, and in that game, you’re gonna have stories emerge around the characters you play. But I think ultimately, to try and characterize The Sims as one thing, kind of does it an injustice because it’s so many things to so many people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There are so many ways to play this game, but for a lot of players, including myself, The Sims provided this safe little sandbox to figure out who they were.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think the fact that Sims is about crafting characters that might literally look, act, and have the same life you do has led a lot of folks to exploring who they are through The Sims. And I think it seems like a small thing, it’s just a game, like what’s the big deal? I figured out who I was through seeing myself in media because it let me know that who I am is okay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> A few years ago, Jessica led the Sims sexual orientation update. It was huge both for players and for the games industry overall. It allowed players to set specific parameters for who their Sims were attracted to and what kind of relationships they were interested in. But for years before this update ever rolled out, the game had already attracted a dedicated queer player base. In fact, same-sex relationships were possible from the very beginning when The Sims 1 launched in 2000. Jessica says this decision shifted the whole industry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> Back then it was pretty rare to have same-sex relationships in the game. And you saw more and more and more coming at that moment until where you are now where it’s actually pretty unusual I would say for a game where you create a character and embody that character to not have the option to have a same-sex relationship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And since those early days, The Sims has grown into the symbol of LGBTQ representation, getting more inclusive with every update. In other words, it’s gotten more gay. Today, The Sims is arguably the most explicitly queer mainstream game ever made. So how did we get here? We’re diving into a topic I love yapping about, The Sims. From the game’s origin story, to the character lore, to the technical snafus involved in coding sexuality, we’re opening a bunch of tabs on how this game became an oasis for LGBTQ representation, and why some players are worried that might change. So, a gay history of The Sims. Ready?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, let’s open our first tab. The Sims Gay Origin Story. The Sims is the brainchild of Will Wright, co-founder of the legendary game studio, Maxis, and creator of SimCity, SimEarth, and other beloved titles. This story starts in 1991, when Will and his family lost everything in the deadly Oakland Berkeley firestorm. In the aftermath, he and his wife began rebuilding, assessing what they needed and what it actually took to make a home. He had an idea for a life simulator, one that was totally open-ended. Where players start from scratch. Here he is speaking to KQED’s Snap Judgment for an upcoming episode that dives even deeper into this origin story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Will Wright: \u003c/strong>The goal is meant to be for the player to choose. So you can play The Sims and say, “Okay, I want my Sims to be super happy,” or “I want them to be top of their career,” or they have the biggest mansion with the most friends or the most babies, whatever. What I’d rather produce is present a series of possible goals. And I think that’s much more meaningful. And it makes it more about you. So, you know, you’re actually pursuing a goal that means something to you and you’re the one kind of measuring your progress.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It was a revolutionary idea in gaming at the time, but it had trouble gaining traction. The game had been stuck in development hell since the early 90s. The studio behind the game, Maxis, had been acquired by EA, Electronic Arts, while The Sims was still in development. And it was during this time that the first decisions around sexuality were being made. Will wanted to include same-sex relationships in the game because it was supposed to reflect real life. But it came on the heels of a major scandal in another Maxis game, the 1996 flight simulator, SimCopter.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of SimCopter review from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>A bunch of dudes wearing Speedos that start kissing each other loudly. Not only that, but you can jump out and start making out with them yourself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This was a joke programmed into the game by one of the developers, which could be triggered when a player met certain criteria. That developer was later fired for including it. So when it came to The Sims a few years later, the team was understandably worried about backlash. And after a lot of back and forth,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The team had decided that they weren’t going to do same-sex relationships in the original Sims game.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jessica was a teenager at the time. She was not working on the game back then. But the lore of the game’s origin has been passed down through generations of developers. That’s because the queer legacy of The Sims, and everything it’s come to mean to LGBTQ players, started with a mistake.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The dev who was coding the game was new to the team, and I guess he didn’t get the memo, or didn’t read the design doc, couldn’t be me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That programmer was Patrick Barrett, and according to an interview he did with The New Yorker in 2014, he did read the design document. Just the wrong version. Here’s what happened. It was the late 90s. Soon after Patrick joined the team, the game’s lead programmer went on vacation. Someone handed Patrick the design documents that outlined how all social interactions between characters in the game should be coded. But… He was given a version of the document from before the team decided to exclude gay relationships. So, Patrick wrote up the code for Sim conversations, arguments, and romance. And in Patrick’s version, romances between Sims of the same gender were allowed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>No one mentioned it. E3 was coming up, the hottest, most prestigious games industry convention of its time. And this was supposed to be the Sims big debut. Patrick was asked to put together a gameplay demo, which highlighted these different scripted scenarios for The Sims. One of them was a wedding. There were so many Sims attending that Patrick didn’t have time to script all of their interactions. That meant some of the characters would act autonomously.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> They put everything together, shipped it off, and then at the trade show in front of a gigantic crowd and like one of the biggest trade shows for our industry, in front everybody, two female Sims kissed each other and everyone just went nuts. Like, it was one of those things where the cat was totally out of the bag. There was such buzz coming out of that moment that it had to be part of the game from that point on. And even though we got there by accident, I’m not picky. I’m glad it happened at all. And from that moment, The Sims kind of became the tip of the spear.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This blunder at a trade show 27 years ago set something in motion that is still reverberating today. But considering how foundational the story is to Sims lore, I wanted to verify it. Is there anything backing up this story? Consider this our first side quest, tracking down the receipts. This much I can say. There’s no footage of this legendary kiss happening. While working on this episode, I spent days scrubbing through archived forums, interviews with Will Wright, and B-roll from news broadcasts covering the Sims demo. There is a lot of coverage of E3 in 1999.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Lauren Fielder for GameSpot TV from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Here we are! We’re on the floor of the Electronic Entertainment Expo in Los Angeles, California, with a special edition of GameSpot TV.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Some news reports have a sentence or two about The Sims, like a Washington Post write-up that called it, “a quiet little game,” and, “a surprise hit.” But there’s barely any coverage with details about The Sims demo. What I did manage to dig up is from a German DVD showcasing PC games that debuted at E3.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of DVD demo in German from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>[Speaking German]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The part mentioning the Sims is just 22 seconds long. The fabled kiss does not appear. So I scrubbed through, no joke, hours of show footage from that year’s convention. This is the pre-vlogging era. I’m talking shaky camcorder clips, unedited, capturing these little snippets of what gaming was like in 1999.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of E3 convention in 1999 from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>You can be a master if you try! Pokemon! The adventure begins with the TV show…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> These scenes were lost to time until someone found the tapes, digitized them, and then uploaded them to YouTube decades later. I found a brief flash of the Sims booth in one video, but the camera holder didn’t bother to focus on the screen. On the internet, there’s no mention of this groundbreaking lesbian kiss until 2014, when The New Yorker published the interview with Patrick Barrett. We tried reaching out to the programmer through multiple contact methods, but didn’t get a response. I even friended him on Facebook. But, crickets. Maybe one day, someone will uncover and digitize the grainy camcorder footage of the kiss that changed it all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What we do have is confirmation of an internal struggle at Maxis over whether to include same-sex relationships at all. In 2019, another programmer, Don Hopkins, released the design documents from 1998, months before that infamous E3 game demo. He criticized the prototype’s strictly enforced heterosexuality. In one version, trying to initiate a kiss with a Sim of the same gender would actually result in the Sim getting slapped. Here’s a note that Don left in the document.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Dramatic reading of Don’s comment by Chris Egusa]: \u003c/strong>We are going to be expected to do better than that after the SimCopter fiasco and the lip service that Maxis publicly gave in response about not being anti-gay. And anyone offended by that needs to grow up and get a life. And hopefully our game will help them in that quest.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims debuted at E3 months later. Gay romance and all. The full game was released the next year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> So it’s, it’s 2000, young Jessica is 16. Uh, and I’m reading my PC Mag, because we had physical media back then. And I see this article about this new game, The Sims, and it is not like anything else I’ve ever seen. It’s this quirky little game where instead of like, being a warrior, a wizard, or like flying spaceships, you’re just living a life. And to me I’m like, “How could that possibly be fun?” is my first thought. And then my second thought, “I’m kind of curious.” I want to see why people think this is fun. And I load up, I play it, and it just opened up this whole new space for me. And I’m like, “Huh, this is actually really interesting playing a game about just the everyday life of a character.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims was a hit. Critics praised it for the character customization, the totally unique gameplay, and the storytelling. For a lot of players, the best part was that they could be gay in the game.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think like, so often when you talk about representation, the first of something, the first time you see a same-sex couple in like a major production, the first time you see a trans character in a major like piece of media, that really signals to everyone else that like, “Hey, you know, we can explore these spaces and we can tell these authentic stories and represent folks that are not represented,” and largely, it’s gonna be fine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There were limits. Like, straight Sims could get married, but gay Sims couldn’t. Okay. But, it was 26 years ago. And as cultural norms evolved, so did the game. But video games function based on defined rules. So, how do you fit something as nuanced as sexuality into lines of code? How does introducing human concepts of gender into a game alter non-human characters? And how did these updates affect the beloved Simmer tradition of woohoo-ing the Grim Reaper? (Woohoo-ing, by the way, is the Sims version of sex). We’re opening a tab on that in just a minute. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay, after the break: more on the gay history of The Sims. Welcome back. Let’s open another tab: a Gay History of the Sims.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> The game, like, it didn’t say queer or not queer. It was, I was interacting and I chose to kiss a man and the game would be like, “Okay.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Lowell Phelps is a senior game design director at EA, and he’s worked on The Sims for over 15 years. He calls himself “a shepherd of ideas,” for the game. He spends a lot of time researching human psychology and how it can be applied to game design. But for many years before that, he was a college student living in a dorm with five other guys when The Sims 1 came out. How his life turned out today didn’t even seem like a possibility back then.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> I have a husband, I have child, like this is kind of my culture, even though I hadn’t really explored any of that growing up, but I could with The Sims.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Sexuality didn’t necessarily exist in The Sims 1. None of the characters had any sexual preference. If they had a high enough relationship score with the player, it would unlock romantic interactions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Everybody was just default pansexual, right? And that was really fascinating to kind of see how the game chose not to make a choice for me, but waited for me to make that choice and drive the direction of these stories. Like being able to woohoo and kiss and just have dates with other characters in ways that maybe you wouldn’t feel comfortable doing in public.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Same-sex couples couldn’t get married like straight Sims couples, but if they moved in together, the game treated them as if they were married anyway. The Sims 2 came out in 2004 and introduced gender preference to the game. It was a weighted system, hidden from players but shifted based on player choices. Think of a scale, tipping one way or the other depending on romantic interactions. So, if a female Sim flirted with a female character, they’d both develop a preference for women, and then autonomously flirt with other female Sims. And then those Sims would autonomously flirt with other female Sims, shifting their preferences. In other words, in The Sims 2, being gay was contagious. And although none of the pre-made characters were explicitly LGBTQ, there were a few that were coded to be queer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> I found Sims 2 versions where we’d told stories about queer couples, um, and it was in the text and maybe how we set some of the parameters. I didn’t realize that until I started digging into the actual history. Um, and I kind of learned that the team has started, not started, but has always included the things that allow gender expression to happen in whatever way we felt comfortable, the person setting it up felt comfortable. So you’ll see it in descriptions, you’ll it in stories of the characters.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The game also allowed Sims to formally propose to each other and plan weddings, regardless of gender. Players would have to buy a special in-game wedding object: a floral arch. When they clicked on it, if they were in a straight relationship, a bubble would pop up that said, “Get married,” triggering a cutscene where the two Sims would exchange rings and cry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Sims 2 wedding in Simlish from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>[Speaking Simlish]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It was basically the same thing for same-sex couples — but their bubble would say, “Join Union.” Today, that does seem pretty discriminatory. But back then, most states didn’t even offer domestic partnerships or civil unions for same-sex couples. The fact that you could have an in-game gay wedding at all was a pretty big deal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Gay marriage was not a acceptable thing at the time, it was not legally approved. And just being able to have those joined unions, being able actually to have a situation where I can take the stories I’m playing out and have a lesbian couple and a gay couple and have the feeling that they are a family, they’re a collective.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And, I’m not gonna lie, as a kid, I used to stay up late on YouTube watching videos of gay weddings in The Sims 2 on the family computer. The scenes were always set to very on-the-nose music, like Katy Perry’s, “I Kissed a Girl,” or the theme song from The L Word. But as a queer preteen, the videos were eye-opening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> And The Sims, because of that first kiss, right? From the moment that happened, it felt like both the players and the creators, like the teams that are working on this product, felt a little bit of freedom to do what we needed to do to just express as many versions of life as we could.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> When The Sims 3 came out in 2009, the United States was at a real inflection point for marriage equality. Obergefell v. Hodges, the landmark Supreme Court ruling that established marriage as a fundamental right for same-sex couples, was still years away. So you could get gay married in The Sims 3, but none of the game’s pre-made characters were officially gay. Pre-made Sims are fully fleshed out characters with backstories and relationships and skills and homes — already established by developers. But, just because characters weren’t explicitly gay doesn’t mean that they didn’t exist. The game included several characters that were heavily implied to be LGBTQ. Like, a household of two women were labeled “roommates,” but they sleep in two beds pushed together in their pre-made house. Or, two guys labeled “best friends” who lived with their adopted daughter who has both of their last names.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> We create characters that live in the world and have stories that they should be pre-built with. And those stories start by applying their preferences, their traits, their aspirations and their wants. And those tools give us a lot of control to say, “What is this initial starting story that the player might be jumping into if they play with a household that already exists?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The year before The Sims 3 release, Prop 8 passed in California, banning same-sex marriage. A federal court later struck it down, and in June 2013, California Governor Jerry Brown ordered county clerks to resume issuing marriage licenses for gay couples. Which is where we get this meme of then-Attorney General Kamala Harris.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Kamala Harris from X]: \u003c/strong>You must start marriages immediately. You must start the marriages immediately.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Later that year, The Sims 3 released an expansion pack called Roaring Heights, and with it, the first explicitly LGBTQ characters.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> So the Roaring Heights couple, the Dylan and Audrey, was really the first time I think we’d actually put a lesbian couple in a world as an actual family with the correct settings that said, “Hey, we are married, we’re a couple.” And that felt pretty transformative. So, right around the time that Prop 8 got overturned is kind of when we started introducing that as an actual element in the game, so players could experience it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> At that point, the next game in the series, The Sims 4, was already in the works. It was released in 2014, and this was the version that really transformed what it means to be represented in games, beyond who can woohoo and marry. In The Sims 4, the team tackled a new frontier: gender. Time for a new tab. Can a cat be non-binary? Two years after The Sims 4 release, the game underwent a major character customization overhaul. So, when you start a new game, you have the option to play as a pre-made household, or customize one yourself. That part is called Create-A-Sim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> We started with male/female as the default for base game and we realized that just wasn’t good enough, right? We wanted to be able to allow, again, better representation, more nuance into the choice. So we quickly realized that thinking about maybe masculine or feminine expression is how we wanna actually tackle this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims 4 offers a series of gender-related choices for players to choose from. They can choose whether their Sim has a masculine frame or a feminine frame. And from there, choose whether they prefer masculine clothing or feminine clothing. It actually went further than just appearance. The game is rated T for Teen. Sims never get naked, unless you’re playing with a spicy mod. Wicked Whims players, you know who you are. But for the official game… That limitation, not showing body parts, got the development team to think about gender and expression beyond what’s assigned at birth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Different clothing preferences, regardless of what my physical appearance actually is. Being able to set whether I can get pregnant or not, or I stand up at the toilet instead of sitting down. It’s not about labeling. It’s about thinking about what is the behavior that’s happening and letting players choose what portion of that behavior is important to them. That’s why peeing standing up or using the toilet standing up is the approach instead of saying, “I have a specific body part,” right? That’s less important. It’s about the behavior.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This new framing of gender led to the first canonically trans character, the spellcaster Morgyn Ember, who can’t get pregnant, can’t other Sims pregnant, has a masculine frame, and wears feminine clothing. Some players tried to romance Morgyn and were confused about their gender. In 2022, Morgyn’s pronouns were updated to they/them. It was part of a bigger game update that allowed players to set unique pronouns for their Sims. Updating a game like this, which has versions in many different languages, was actually pretty complicated. Only English versions of the game have customizable pronouns, which has been disappointing to some players. Here’s Jessica Croft again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The pronouns update was something that I think was very important to our community, especially obviously non-binary folks within our community. The difficulty there is just simply, language itself is not fully aligned on how to handle things like pronouns. They are heavily gendered and in a way where if you don’t study those things at all you might not realize it’s not just about translating a pronoun, it things like adjectives, articles, even past tense verbs are gendered in these places. And then further, some languages do have gender-neutral words, but they are restricted for objects. So, there’s a certain thing where it’s like, if we use that kind of language, does it cause additional problems?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s a cliché saying, but perfect is the enemy of good. We wanted to get something out there that did a lot of good work, that represented a lot folks and made people feel seen, um, as soon as we could. And I think it’s one of those things where if you wait until you get the perfect version of something, where you solve all the problems, where we figure out how to do pronouns in every language, you might never release that thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This game has been out for 12 years now, and in that time, there have been dozens of additional packs — extra contents that includes new worlds, new features, and new pre-made characters. Every time it gets updated, it affects years of pre-existing game content.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> The Sims is a little bit weird. We have robots and we have skeletons and we have lots of other things that maybe you can ask yourself, “Do they have gender? Should they have gender?” Cats and dogs, when we did the non-binary update… You can make a cat and a dog non-binary, that’s okay. So really it comes down to character by character and thinking about is it important for this character to have an identity?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think at one point we had non-binary horses in the horse pack, which, I’m sure those players were like, “Well, you should have just kept that,” and like, maybe, but it was definitely unintentional. When you work with a game like The Sims that’s just layers and layers of systems sitting on top of each other, you get these knock-on effects of some choices you make that are occasionally hilarious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> After the pronoun update, the Sims 4 unveiled its crown jewel for character customization: a giant overhaul of in-game sexual orientation. Jessica was actually leading the design for an expansion pack all about high school. The development team had been working on fine-tuning Sim sexuality, and Jessica pitched releasing that update with a high school expansion. Why there?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> It’s a pack about high school that… It’s about being a teenager, it’s about figuring out who you are. That’s where, in real life a lot of folks do figure out who they are and start exploring questions of their sexuality. So it felt like the right place to do it and the team just rallied around that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And, like with a gender update, this wasn’t a simple matter of slapping on some labels and letting players pick one. It had to be functional in gameplay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The space is so nuanced, the definitions folks have for certain words can differ, in ways where painting with a broad brush on what these labels mean can become incredibly divisive. That was one of the things that we discovered really quickly, working with GLAAD and It Gets Better, that fact. So eventually, we got to a spot where we didn’t use labels. It’s just strictly defining the characteristics of who you’re attracted to and the types of things that you’re into, to craft what is effectively a sexual orientation without the label.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So instead of picking from a menu of words like: “lesbian,” “gay,” “bi,” “asexual,” players just pick the genders they’re attracted to and whether they’re interested in romantic relationships and woohoo-ing. They also don’t have to make a decision. There’s an option for exploring. Jessica said this was also important to include because figuring it out is also a part of real life sexuality. However, players cannot opt out of this aspect of the game entirely. There’s no way to default set all Sims to be straight. When the update first came out, Jessica wrote this in a blog post.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think something along the lines of, “While we generally give players the option to toggle off certain gameplay elements, LGBTQIA+ identities are a fact of life, and not just a toggle you can switch on and off.” I stand by that statement. I frankly don’t care if you don’t like certain people. You can’t just turn them off, right? In real life or in a game. And I think it’s important to stand on business there. We want to commit to our vision for diversity and representation within The Sims, and that’s not a thing you get to just turn off.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims has come so far since the accidental sapphic kiss 27 years ago. It’s way more inclusive, but far from perfect. Despite the expanded framing of gender, the whole system still operates within a binary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> When The Sims was originally engineered, in its very core, like, structural bones, there’s a gender binary. And that next step is like, how do we break this game out of this gender binary? It’s a tricky thing. It would require like this foundational rework of like, so many systems. If at some point we’re able to do an update to, to fully break the game out this gender binary like, foundation it has, that would be so meaningful. It would open up a lot of gameplay, too. Again, it’s immensely tricky. It’s like, a thing that would require really re-engineering a good chunk of the foundation of the game to make happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There have been some workarounds though. Loel talked about this recent feature that he really loves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> So, one of my favorite things that we have added were binders and chest, uh… top surgery scars. Um, and those… Sorry, I get a little emotional talking about it. So my husband is trans. Being able to create his character before that transition after he came out, and have a screenshot of our family, my husband, my daughter, and me just in a space was really impactful. So while it didn’t physically bind the chest, just being able to put on a binder is a step in that transition of his story was really impactful. There’s so many different ways in which people live and have transitions. If I can give one little thing to any player that lets them tell those stories, it’s really important. And those little updates just make such an impact on being able to both represent yourself and feel like yourself in this digital world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’ve been playing The Sims for over half my life, and created so many different lives within the game. I still think about one of my first playthroughs. It was The Sims 3. I moved my Sim to a tropical island, fell in love with a mermaid, and we settled down on a houseboat together. At 13, being openly gay seemed just as fantastical as proposing to a mermaid. The whimsical queer life I built in that save file unfortunately came to an end —when my kitchen caught fire, with my Sims still in it, and instead of helping, my mermaid wife got stuck on a random floor tile and died of dehydration. The whole house boat went down. It was devastating. So, I started another save, and then another, and then probably a couple hundred more. And today, being openly gay isn’t that absurd at all. There’s a reason queer people make up such a large portion of The Sims player base. We reached out to Simmers to hear what this game has meant to them over the years. Here’s what they had to say.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plumbella: \u003c/strong>Will be the first Simmer to hold my hands up and say I was a bit too interested in making my Sims kiss Sims of the same sex. And I think that for a lot of queer people, they will also be able to trace their own gameplay in The Sims back and have a lot of things suddenly make sense.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Owen McHall: \u003c/strong>The Sims was the first game I ever played where I could make the player character trans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephen Works (SpringSims): \u003c/strong>It felt more like home… It felt like my safe space where I could be who I want, how I want without any fear of judgment. As a queer Black male, I was able to recreate myself authentically from my skin tone to my hair type, to the clothing options. There were so many stories that I have told and created and shaped that I knew it was like, “This is where I wanna be for the rest of my life.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mivyard:\u003c/strong> For me, as a queer kid growing up in a Christian school, I definitely felt like I had to be quiet about who I was and I didn’t see a lot of role models at school. And so, having The Sims as a tool for exploration and expression really helped me find a sense of belonging and it helped me feel confident, and proud of who I was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tonya (Gryphi): \u003c/strong>If I could have two girls kiss and fall in love in this game, then maybe it was okay in real life as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plumbella: \u003c/strong>Being able to fall in with whoever you wanted might have been an oversight of the developers, it might have an accident that they forgot to write in the code. It’s ended up that in a time where it wasn’t really okay to be anything outside of the norm, The Sims has been a beacon of inclusivity, and that’s just grown over the years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This game has come to mean so much to so many queer players. It’s made such huge strides for LGBTQ inclusion — meaningful representation, without feeling like some kind of corporate pandering. But today, a lot of those players are really, deeply concerned about the future of The Sims. Late last year, Electronic Arts confirmed that the entire brand and its catalog, including The Sims, had been sold to private investors, a cohort that includes Jared Kushner’s firm, Affinity Partners, and Saudi Arabia’s Sovereign Wealth Fund.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kayla Sims (LilSimsie): \u003c/strong>It’s also a $55 billion deal, which is completely unprecedented. I mean, it’s hard to even, like, fathom the scale of that, but that actually is more than the entire music industry combined.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Kayla Sims, better known online as LilSimsie, is one of the the creators speaking out about this deal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kayla Sims (LilSimsie): \u003c/strong>And there’s a lot of concerns about censorship within The Sims, I think also, because of those new owners that do not have a great track record with human rights. They actually have a direct track record of criminalizing LGBTQ+ expression. And so a lot queer players of The Sims are really, really worried about those new owners for that reason, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So, we’re extending our deep dive. We have a few more tabs on what this deal really entails, how players are responding, and what The Sims team says about the future of the game. I’m gonna leave these tabs open for now. Come back next week for the second half of the story. And, if you’re dying for more before then, stick around after the credits for some bonus content.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva with production help from Francesca Fenzi. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and did the dramatic reading for this episode.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro V2 switches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Special thanks to the Simmers who contributed voice notes for this episode: Plumbella, Owen McHall, SpringSims, Mivyard, and Griphy. And thank you to John Fecile, senior producer for KQED’s Snap Judgment, for the tape of his interview with Will Wright. Thanks for listening!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I remember when the update for, I think it was maybe High School Years, when the sexuality update first came out, people were upset that the Grim Reaper was now asexual. They just really wanted to bang the Grim Reaper.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I mean, in Life and Death, we went back and made Grim woohoo-able again. Players have a fascination with our special characters… And at some point, the ownership of the thing becomes the person’s and not the dev team’s. Yeah, so yeah, Grim is an interesting case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Did The Sims make you gay?” is a long-running joke among Sims players. For millions, \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> has been more than a video game — it’s been a place to experiment, tell stories, and explore identity. Long before LGBTQ representation became common in mainstream games, \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> allowed same-sex relationships, helping create a devoted queer fan base that reshaped what players expected from virtual worlds.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>In this episode, Morgan Sung talks with \u003cem>The Sims 4\u003c/em> senior designer Jessica Croft and Electronic Arts’ senior game design director Loel Phelps about the game’s unlikely emergence as one of the most queer-inclusive franchises in gaming. They explore the legendary story of how same-sex romance accidentally made it into the original game, the challenges of translating sexuality and gender into game systems, why so many LGBTQ players discovered their own identities in \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> long before they felt safe doing so in real life — and why some players are worried about where the game might be headed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Did The Sims make you gay?” is a long-running joke among Sims players. For millions, \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> has been more than a video game — it’s been a place to experiment, tell stories, and explore identity. Long before LGBTQ representation became common in mainstream games, \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> allowed same-sex relationships, helping create a devoted queer fan base that reshaped what players expected from virtual worlds.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>In this episode, Morgan Sung talks with \u003cem>The Sims 4\u003c/em> senior designer Jessica Croft and Electronic Arts’ senior game design director Loel Phelps about the game’s unlikely emergence as one of the most queer-inclusive franchises in gaming. They explore the legendary story of how same-sex romance accidentally made it into the original game, the challenges of translating sexuality and gender into game systems, why so many LGBTQ players discovered their own identities in \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> long before they felt safe doing so in real life — and why some players are worried about where the game might be headed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"The Kiss That Changed Video Games — Simon Parkin, The New Yorker",
"Unearthed The Sims design docs show the internal debate over same-sex relationships — Steven Messner, PC Gamer",
"Did The Sims make you gay? – a video essay. — Alexander Avila, YouTube ",
"The Sims Knew I Was Queer Before I Did — Megan Elliot,BRICKS Magazine",
"Gay weddings for Russia: How The Sims became a battleground for the LGBTQ+ community — Tom Regan, The Guardian",
"The Sims designer says that the series’ diversity is “critical, especially at times like now” as the games must recognise “the fundamental truths of our humanity” to stay successful — Lewis White, FIVR"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/the-kiss-that-changed-video-games\">The Kiss That Changed Video Games\u003c/a> — Simon Parkin, \u003cem>The New Yorker\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/the-kiss-that-changed-video-games\">The Kiss That Changed Video Games\u003c/a> — Simon Parkin, \u003cem>The New Yorker\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pcgamer.com/unearthed-the-sims-design-docs-show-the-debate-over-same-sex-relationships/\">Unearthed The Sims design docs show the internal debate over same-sex relationships\u003c/a> — Steven Messner, \u003cem>PC Gamer\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi-HWyh0Ybk\">Did The Sims make you gay? – a video essay.\u003c/a> — Alexander Avila, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bricksmagazine.co.uk/2020/08/27/the-sims-knew-i-was-queer-before-i-did/\">The Sims Knew I Was Queer Before I Did \u003c/a>— Megan Elliot,\u003cem>BRICKS Magazine\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bricksmagazine.co.uk/2020/08/27/the-sims-knew-i-was-queer-before-i-did/\">The Sims Knew I Was Queer Before I Did \u003c/a>— Megan Elliot,\u003cem>BRICKS Magazine\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/games/2022/feb/22/gay-weddings-for-russia-how-the-sims-became-a-battleground-for-the-lgbtq-community\">Gay weddings for Russia: How The Sims became a battleground for the LGBTQ+ community \u003c/a>— Tom Regan, \u003cem>The Guardian\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/games/2022/feb/22/gay-weddings-for-russia-how-the-sims-became-a-battleground-for-the-lgbtq-community\">Gay weddings for Russia: How The Sims became a battleground for the LGBTQ+ community \u003c/a>— Tom Regan, \u003cem>The Guardian\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://frvr.com/blog/news/the-sims-designer-says-that-the-series-diversity-is-critical-especially-at-times-like-now/\">The Sims designer says that the series’ diversity is “critical, especially at times like now” as the games must recognise “the fundamental truths of our humanity” to stay successful \u003c/a>— Lewis White, \u003cem>FIVR\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://frvr.com/blog/news/the-sims-designer-says-that-the-series-diversity-is-critical-especially-at-times-like-now/\">The Sims designer says that the series’ diversity is “critical, especially at times like now” as the games must recognise “the fundamental truths of our humanity” to stay successful \u003c/a>— Lewis White, \u003cem>FIVR\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a tabby or a tab head or part of the tab hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us. Under our watch, every tab in the land will be closed. Eventually. I mean, I have like 15 open right now. Okay, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a tabby or a tab head or part of the tab hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us. Under our watch, every tab in the land will be closed. Eventually. I mean, I have like 15 open right now. Okay, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So the other day, I got out of bed and I did my normal morning chores. Fed the chickens, watered my crops, and checked in on my sweet baby cow plant. He ate one of my friends last week, so I’m keeping him on a really strict feeding schedule so he doesn’t try it again. I kissed my wife goodbye before she left for her job as an undertaker, and then I started getting ready for my job as a Grim Reaper. I just got promoted to Soul Slayer, which is a pretty big deal. Lots of responsibility there. But, just as I was about to leave, the gnomes started spawning around my house again. They went around breaking all my stuff, and when I tried to stop them, they had the audacity to strike me with lightning. Just another typical day in The Sims.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So the other day, I got out of bed and I did my normal morning chores. Fed the chickens, watered my crops, and checked in on my sweet baby cow plant. He ate one of my friends last week, so I’m keeping him on a really strict feeding schedule so he doesn’t try it again. I kissed my wife goodbye before she left for her job as an undertaker, and then I started getting ready for my job as a Grim Reaper. I just got promoted to Soul Slayer, which is a pretty big deal. Lots of responsibility there. But, just as I was about to leave, the gnomes started spawning around my house again. They went around breaking all my stuff, and when I tried to stop them, they had the audacity to strike me with lightning. Just another typical day in The Sims.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This franchise has been wildly popular since the first Sims game came out 26 years ago. It’s like a virtual dollhouse. You control these dolls, called Sims, and help them fulfill goals, manage their needs, and interact with their world. I love it. For the last 14 years, my sister and I have shared an account just to play this game. And together, We’ve logged more than 6,000 hours in The Sims 4 alone. I’m kind of scared to check where we clocked in on The Sims 3. The game is constantly evolving and adapting to whatever the current culture is. And in addition to some very silly gameplay, The Sims has become this oasis for diversity and representation. In queer spaces, Sims players, also known as Simmers, love to ask each other this question. Did The Sims make you gay? Why is that, you may ask?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This franchise has been wildly popular since the first Sims game came out 26 years ago. It’s like a virtual dollhouse. You control these dolls, called Sims, and help them fulfill goals, manage their needs, and interact with their world. I love it. For the last 14 years, my sister and I have shared an account just to play this game. And together, We’ve logged more than 6,000 hours in The Sims 4 alone. I’m kind of scared to check where we clocked in on The Sims 3. The game is constantly evolving and adapting to whatever the current culture is. And in addition to some very silly gameplay, The Sims has become this oasis for diversity and representation. In queer spaces, Sims players, also known as Simmers, love to ask each other this question. Did The Sims make you gay? Why is that, you may ask?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> Because it made a lot of people gay\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> Because it made a lot of people gay\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jessica Croft is a senior designer for The Sims 4. She’s had a hand in designing some of the features that make the game so unique, like the sexual orientation system. More on that later. The Sims is iconic because of its freedom. It lets players experience the game however they want. That freedom has given rise to a few distinct types of simmers. You might be a builder. Spending hours constructing and decorating complex architectural marvels. Maybe you’re a storyteller who plays the game like an eternal personal soap opera, or a completionist trying to get every possible achievement in the game. And at some point in their life, every Simmer has been a chaos agent, setting things on fire, ruining in-game relationships, even removing the ladder from their Sim’s pool so they get stuck and drown. You know. Playing God.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jessica Croft is a senior designer for The Sims 4. She’s had a hand in designing some of the features that make the game so unique, like the sexual orientation system. More on that later. The Sims is iconic because of its freedom. It lets players experience the game however they want. That freedom has given rise to a few distinct types of simmers. You might be a builder. Spending hours constructing and decorating complex architectural marvels. Maybe you’re a storyteller who plays the game like an eternal personal soap opera, or a completionist trying to get every possible achievement in the game. And at some point in their life, every Simmer has been a chaos agent, setting things on fire, ruining in-game relationships, even removing the ladder from their Sim’s pool so they get stuck and drown. You know. Playing God.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I would say it’s, to me, a storytelling tool. So you’re playing this game about everyday life, and in that game, you’re gonna have stories emerge around the characters you play. But I think ultimately, to try and characterize The Sims as one thing, kind of does it an injustice because it’s so many things to so many people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I would say it’s, to me, a storytelling tool. So you’re playing this game about everyday life, and in that game, you’re gonna have stories emerge around the characters you play. But I think ultimately, to try and characterize The Sims as one thing, kind of does it an injustice because it’s so many things to so many people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There are so many ways to play this game, but for a lot of players, including myself, The Sims provided this safe little sandbox to figure out who they were.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There are so many ways to play this game, but for a lot of players, including myself, The Sims provided this safe little sandbox to figure out who they were.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think the fact that Sims is about crafting characters that might literally look, act, and have the same life you do has led a lot of folks to exploring who they are through The Sims. And I think it seems like a small thing, it’s just a game, like what’s the big deal? I figured out who I was through seeing myself in media because it let me know that who I am is okay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think the fact that Sims is about crafting characters that might literally look, act, and have the same life you do has led a lot of folks to exploring who they are through The Sims. And I think it seems like a small thing, it’s just a game, like what’s the big deal? I figured out who I was through seeing myself in media because it let me know that who I am is okay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> A few years ago, Jessica led the Sims sexual orientation update. It was huge both for players and for the games industry overall. It allowed players to set specific parameters for who their Sims were attracted to and what kind of relationships they were interested in. But for years before this update ever rolled out, the game had already attracted a dedicated queer player base. In fact, same-sex relationships were possible from the very beginning when The Sims 1 launched in 2000. Jessica says this decision shifted the whole industry.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> A few years ago, Jessica led the Sims sexual orientation update. It was huge both for players and for the games industry overall. It allowed players to set specific parameters for who their Sims were attracted to and what kind of relationships they were interested in. But for years before this update ever rolled out, the game had already attracted a dedicated queer player base. In fact, same-sex relationships were possible from the very beginning when The Sims 1 launched in 2000. Jessica says this decision shifted the whole industry.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> Back then it was pretty rare to have same-sex relationships in the game. And you saw more and more and more coming at that moment until where you are now where it’s actually pretty unusual I would say for a game where you create a character and embody that character to not have the option to have a same-sex relationship.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> Back then it was pretty rare to have same-sex relationships in the game. And you saw more and more and more coming at that moment until where you are now where it’s actually pretty unusual I would say for a game where you create a character and embody that character to not have the option to have a same-sex relationship.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And since those early days, The Sims has grown into the symbol of LGBTQ representation, getting more inclusive with every update. In other words, it’s gotten more gay. Today, The Sims is arguably the most explicitly queer mainstream game ever made. So how did we get here? We’re diving into a topic I love yapping about, The Sims. From the game’s origin story, to the character lore, to the technical snafus involved in coding sexuality, we’re opening a bunch of tabs on how this game became an oasis for LGBTQ representation, and why some players are worried that might change. So, a gay history of The Sims. Ready?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And since those early days, The Sims has grown into the symbol of LGBTQ representation, getting more inclusive with every update. In other words, it’s gotten more gay. Today, The Sims is arguably the most explicitly queer mainstream game ever made. So how did we get here? We’re diving into a topic I love yapping about, The Sims. From the game’s origin story, to the character lore, to the technical snafus involved in coding sexuality, we’re opening a bunch of tabs on how this game became an oasis for LGBTQ representation, and why some players are worried that might change. So, a gay history of The Sims. Ready?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Okay, let’s open our first tab. The Sims Gay Origin Story. The Sims is the brainchild of Will Wright, co-founder of the legendary game studio, Maxis, and creator of SimCity, SimEarth, and other beloved titles. This story starts in 1991, when Will and his family lost everything in the deadly Oakland Berkeley firestorm. In the aftermath, he and his wife began rebuilding, assessing what they needed and what it actually took to make a home. He had an idea for a life simulator, one that was totally open-ended. Where players start from scratch. Here he is speaking to KQED’s Snap Judgment for an upcoming episode that dives even deeper into this origin story.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Okay, let’s open our first tab. The Sims Gay Origin Story. The Sims is the brainchild of Will Wright, co-founder of the legendary game studio, Maxis, and creator of SimCity, SimEarth, and other beloved titles. This story starts in 1991, when Will and his family lost everything in the deadly Oakland Berkeley firestorm. In the aftermath, he and his wife began rebuilding, assessing what they needed and what it actually took to make a home. He had an idea for a life simulator, one that was totally open-ended. Where players start from scratch. Here he is speaking to KQED’s Snap Judgment for an upcoming episode that dives even deeper into this origin story.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Will Wright: \u003c/strong>The goal is meant to be for the player to choose. So you can play The Sims and say, “Okay, I want my Sims to be super happy,” or “I want them to be top of their career,” or they have the biggest mansion with the most friends or the most babies, whatever. What I’d rather produce is present a series of possible goals. And I think that’s much more meaningful. And it makes it more about you. So, you know, you’re actually pursuing a goal that means something to you and you’re the one kind of measuring your progress.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Will Wright: \u003c/strong>The goal is meant to be for the player to choose. So you can play The Sims and say, “Okay, I want my Sims to be super happy,” or “I want them to be top of their career,” or they have the biggest mansion with the most friends or the most babies, whatever. What I’d rather produce is present a series of possible goals. And I think that’s much more meaningful. And it makes it more about you. So, you know, you’re actually pursuing a goal that means something to you and you’re the one kind of measuring your progress.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It was a revolutionary idea in gaming at the time, but it had trouble gaining traction. The game had been stuck in development hell since the early 90s. The studio behind the game, Maxis, had been acquired by EA, Electronic Arts, while The Sims was still in development. And it was during this time that the first decisions around sexuality were being made. Will wanted to include same-sex relationships in the game because it was supposed to reflect real life. But it came on the heels of a major scandal in another Maxis game, the 1996 flight simulator, SimCopter.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It was a revolutionary idea in gaming at the time, but it had trouble gaining traction. The game had been stuck in development hell since the early 90s. The studio behind the game, Maxis, had been acquired by EA, Electronic Arts, while The Sims was still in development. And it was during this time that the first decisions around sexuality were being made. Will wanted to include same-sex relationships in the game because it was supposed to reflect real life. But it came on the heels of a major scandal in another Maxis game, the 1996 flight simulator, SimCopter.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of SimCopter review from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>A bunch of dudes wearing Speedos that start kissing each other loudly. Not only that, but you can jump out and start making out with them yourself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of SimCopter review from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>A bunch of dudes wearing Speedos that start kissing each other loudly. Not only that, but you can jump out and start making out with them yourself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This was a joke programmed into the game by one of the developers, which could be triggered when a player met certain criteria. That developer was later fired for including it. So when it came to The Sims a few years later, the team was understandably worried about backlash. And after a lot of back and forth,\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This was a joke programmed into the game by one of the developers, which could be triggered when a player met certain criteria. That developer was later fired for including it. So when it came to The Sims a few years later, the team was understandably worried about backlash. And after a lot of back and forth,\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The team had decided that they weren’t going to do same-sex relationships in the original Sims game.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The team had decided that they weren’t going to do same-sex relationships in the original Sims game.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jessica was a teenager at the time. She was not working on the game back then. But the lore of the game’s origin has been passed down through generations of developers. That’s because the queer legacy of The Sims, and everything it’s come to mean to LGBTQ players, started with a mistake.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jessica was a teenager at the time. She was not working on the game back then. But the lore of the game’s origin has been passed down through generations of developers. That’s because the queer legacy of The Sims, and everything it’s come to mean to LGBTQ players, started with a mistake.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The dev who was coding the game was new to the team, and I guess he didn’t get the memo, or didn’t read the design doc, couldn’t be me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The dev who was coding the game was new to the team, and I guess he didn’t get the memo, or didn’t read the design doc, couldn’t be me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That programmer was Patrick Barrett, and according to an interview he did with The New Yorker in 2014, he did read the design document. Just the wrong version. Here’s what happened. It was the late 90s. Soon after Patrick joined the team, the game’s lead programmer went on vacation. Someone handed Patrick the design documents that outlined how all social interactions between characters in the game should be coded. But… He was given a version of the document from before the team decided to exclude gay relationships. So, Patrick wrote up the code for Sim conversations, arguments, and romance. And in Patrick’s version, romances between Sims of the same gender were allowed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That programmer was Patrick Barrett, and according to an interview he did with The New Yorker in 2014, he did read the design document. Just the wrong version. Here’s what happened. It was the late 90s. Soon after Patrick joined the team, the game’s lead programmer went on vacation. Someone handed Patrick the design documents that outlined how all social interactions between characters in the game should be coded. But… He was given a version of the document from before the team decided to exclude gay relationships. So, Patrick wrote up the code for Sim conversations, arguments, and romance. And in Patrick’s version, romances between Sims of the same gender were allowed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>No one mentioned it. E3 was coming up, the hottest, most prestigious games industry convention of its time. And this was supposed to be the Sims big debut. Patrick was asked to put together a gameplay demo, which highlighted these different scripted scenarios for The Sims. One of them was a wedding. There were so many Sims attending that Patrick didn’t have time to script all of their interactions. That meant some of the characters would act autonomously.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>No one mentioned it. E3 was coming up, the hottest, most prestigious games industry convention of its time. And this was supposed to be the Sims big debut. Patrick was asked to put together a gameplay demo, which highlighted these different scripted scenarios for The Sims. One of them was a wedding. There were so many Sims attending that Patrick didn’t have time to script all of their interactions. That meant some of the characters would act autonomously.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> They put everything together, shipped it off, and then at the trade show in front of a gigantic crowd and like one of the biggest trade shows for our industry, in front everybody, two female Sims kissed each other and everyone just went nuts. Like, it was one of those things where the cat was totally out of the bag. There was such buzz coming out of that moment that it had to be part of the game from that point on. And even though we got there by accident, I’m not picky. I’m glad it happened at all. And from that moment, The Sims kind of became the tip of the spear.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> They put everything together, shipped it off, and then at the trade show in front of a gigantic crowd and like one of the biggest trade shows for our industry, in front everybody, two female Sims kissed each other and everyone just went nuts. Like, it was one of those things where the cat was totally out of the bag. There was such buzz coming out of that moment that it had to be part of the game from that point on. And even though we got there by accident, I’m not picky. I’m glad it happened at all. And from that moment, The Sims kind of became the tip of the spear.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This blunder at a trade show 27 years ago set something in motion that is still reverberating today. But considering how foundational the story is to Sims lore, I wanted to verify it. Is there anything backing up this story? Consider this our first side quest, tracking down the receipts. This much I can say. There’s no footage of this legendary kiss happening. While working on this episode, I spent days scrubbing through archived forums, interviews with Will Wright, and B-roll from news broadcasts covering the Sims demo. There is a lot of coverage of E3 in 1999.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This blunder at a trade show 27 years ago set something in motion that is still reverberating today. But considering how foundational the story is to Sims lore, I wanted to verify it. Is there anything backing up this story? Consider this our first side quest, tracking down the receipts. This much I can say. There’s no footage of this legendary kiss happening. While working on this episode, I spent days scrubbing through archived forums, interviews with Will Wright, and B-roll from news broadcasts covering the Sims demo. There is a lot of coverage of E3 in 1999.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Lauren Fielder for GameSpot TV from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Here we are! We’re on the floor of the Electronic Entertainment Expo in Los Angeles, California, with a special edition of GameSpot TV.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Lauren Fielder for GameSpot TV from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Here we are! We’re on the floor of the Electronic Entertainment Expo in Los Angeles, California, with a special edition of GameSpot TV.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Some news reports have a sentence or two about The Sims, like a Washington Post write-up that called it, “a quiet little game,” and, “a surprise hit.” But there’s barely any coverage with details about The Sims demo. What I did manage to dig up is from a German DVD showcasing PC games that debuted at E3.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Some news reports have a sentence or two about The Sims, like a Washington Post write-up that called it, “a quiet little game,” and, “a surprise hit.” But there’s barely any coverage with details about The Sims demo. What I did manage to dig up is from a German DVD showcasing PC games that debuted at E3.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of DVD demo in German from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>[Speaking German]\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of DVD demo in German from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>[Speaking German]\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The part mentioning the Sims is just 22 seconds long. The fabled kiss does not appear. So I scrubbed through, no joke, hours of show footage from that year’s convention. This is the pre-vlogging era. I’m talking shaky camcorder clips, unedited, capturing these little snippets of what gaming was like in 1999.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The part mentioning the Sims is just 22 seconds long. The fabled kiss does not appear. So I scrubbed through, no joke, hours of show footage from that year’s convention. This is the pre-vlogging era. I’m talking shaky camcorder clips, unedited, capturing these little snippets of what gaming was like in 1999.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of E3 convention in 1999 from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>You can be a master if you try! Pokemon! The adventure begins with the TV show…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of E3 convention in 1999 from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>You can be a master if you try! Pokemon! The adventure begins with the TV show…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> These scenes were lost to time until someone found the tapes, digitized them, and then uploaded them to YouTube decades later. I found a brief flash of the Sims booth in one video, but the camera holder didn’t bother to focus on the screen. On the internet, there’s no mention of this groundbreaking lesbian kiss until 2014, when The New Yorker published the interview with Patrick Barrett. We tried reaching out to the programmer through multiple contact methods, but didn’t get a response. I even friended him on Facebook. But, crickets. Maybe one day, someone will uncover and digitize the grainy camcorder footage of the kiss that changed it all.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> These scenes were lost to time until someone found the tapes, digitized them, and then uploaded them to YouTube decades later. I found a brief flash of the Sims booth in one video, but the camera holder didn’t bother to focus on the screen. On the internet, there’s no mention of this groundbreaking lesbian kiss until 2014, when The New Yorker published the interview with Patrick Barrett. We tried reaching out to the programmer through multiple contact methods, but didn’t get a response. I even friended him on Facebook. But, crickets. Maybe one day, someone will uncover and digitize the grainy camcorder footage of the kiss that changed it all.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What we do have is confirmation of an internal struggle at Maxis over whether to include same-sex relationships at all. In 2019, another programmer, Don Hopkins, released the design documents from 1998, months before that infamous E3 game demo. He criticized the prototype’s strictly enforced heterosexuality. In one version, trying to initiate a kiss with a Sim of the same gender would actually result in the Sim getting slapped. Here’s a note that Don left in the document.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What we do have is confirmation of an internal struggle at Maxis over whether to include same-sex relationships at all. In 2019, another programmer, Don Hopkins, released the design documents from 1998, months before that infamous E3 game demo. He criticized the prototype’s strictly enforced heterosexuality. In one version, trying to initiate a kiss with a Sim of the same gender would actually result in the Sim getting slapped. Here’s a note that Don left in the document.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Dramatic reading of Don’s comment by Chris Egusa]: \u003c/strong>We are going to be expected to do better than that after the SimCopter fiasco and the lip service that Maxis publicly gave in response about not being anti-gay. And anyone offended by that needs to grow up and get a life. And hopefully our game will help them in that quest.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Dramatic reading of Don’s comment by Chris Egusa]: \u003c/strong>We are going to be expected to do better than that after the SimCopter fiasco and the lip service that Maxis publicly gave in response about not being anti-gay. And anyone offended by that needs to grow up and get a life. And hopefully our game will help them in that quest.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims debuted at E3 months later. Gay romance and all. The full game was released the next year.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims debuted at E3 months later. Gay romance and all. The full game was released the next year.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> So it’s, it’s 2000, young Jessica is 16. Uh, and I’m reading my PC Mag, because we had physical media back then. And I see this article about this new game, The Sims, and it is not like anything else I’ve ever seen. It’s this quirky little game where instead of like, being a warrior, a wizard, or like flying spaceships, you’re just living a life. And to me I’m like, “How could that possibly be fun?” is my first thought. And then my second thought, “I’m kind of curious.” I want to see why people think this is fun. And I load up, I play it, and it just opened up this whole new space for me. And I’m like, “Huh, this is actually really interesting playing a game about just the everyday life of a character.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> So it’s, it’s 2000, young Jessica is 16. Uh, and I’m reading my PC Mag, because we had physical media back then. And I see this article about this new game, The Sims, and it is not like anything else I’ve ever seen. It’s this quirky little game where instead of like, being a warrior, a wizard, or like flying spaceships, you’re just living a life. And to me I’m like, “How could that possibly be fun?” is my first thought. And then my second thought, “I’m kind of curious.” I want to see why people think this is fun. And I load up, I play it, and it just opened up this whole new space for me. And I’m like, “Huh, this is actually really interesting playing a game about just the everyday life of a character.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims was a hit. Critics praised it for the character customization, the totally unique gameplay, and the storytelling. For a lot of players, the best part was that they could be gay in the game.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims was a hit. Critics praised it for the character customization, the totally unique gameplay, and the storytelling. For a lot of players, the best part was that they could be gay in the game.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think like, so often when you talk about representation, the first of something, the first time you see a same-sex couple in like a major production, the first time you see a trans character in a major like piece of media, that really signals to everyone else that like, “Hey, you know, we can explore these spaces and we can tell these authentic stories and represent folks that are not represented,” and largely, it’s gonna be fine.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think like, so often when you talk about representation, the first of something, the first time you see a same-sex couple in like a major production, the first time you see a trans character in a major like piece of media, that really signals to everyone else that like, “Hey, you know, we can explore these spaces and we can tell these authentic stories and represent folks that are not represented,” and largely, it’s gonna be fine.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There were limits. Like, straight Sims could get married, but gay Sims couldn’t. Okay. But, it was 26 years ago. And as cultural norms evolved, so did the game. But video games function based on defined rules. So, how do you fit something as nuanced as sexuality into lines of code? How does introducing human concepts of gender into a game alter non-human characters? And how did these updates affect the beloved Simmer tradition of woohoo-ing the Grim Reaper? (Woohoo-ing, by the way, is the Sims version of sex). We’re opening a tab on that in just a minute. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay, after the break: more on the gay history of The Sims. Welcome back. Let’s open another tab: a Gay History of the Sims.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There were limits. Like, straight Sims could get married, but gay Sims couldn’t. Okay. But, it was 26 years ago. And as cultural norms evolved, so did the game. But video games function based on defined rules. So, how do you fit something as nuanced as sexuality into lines of code? How does introducing human concepts of gender into a game alter non-human characters? And how did these updates affect the beloved Simmer tradition of woohoo-ing the Grim Reaper? (Woohoo-ing, by the way, is the Sims version of sex). We’re opening a tab on that in just a minute. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay, after the break: more on the gay history of The Sims. Welcome back. Let’s open another tab: a Gay History of the Sims.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> The game, like, it didn’t say queer or not queer. It was, I was interacting and I chose to kiss a man and the game would be like, “Okay.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> The game, like, it didn’t say queer or not queer. It was, I was interacting and I chose to kiss a man and the game would be like, “Okay.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Lowell Phelps is a senior game design director at EA, and he’s worked on The Sims for over 15 years. He calls himself “a shepherd of ideas,” for the game. He spends a lot of time researching human psychology and how it can be applied to game design. But for many years before that, he was a college student living in a dorm with five other guys when The Sims 1 came out. How his life turned out today didn’t even seem like a possibility back then.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Lowell Phelps is a senior game design director at EA, and he’s worked on The Sims for over 15 years. He calls himself “a shepherd of ideas,” for the game. He spends a lot of time researching human psychology and how it can be applied to game design. But for many years before that, he was a college student living in a dorm with five other guys when The Sims 1 came out. How his life turned out today didn’t even seem like a possibility back then.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> I have a husband, I have child, like this is kind of my culture, even though I hadn’t really explored any of that growing up, but I could with The Sims.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> I have a husband, I have child, like this is kind of my culture, even though I hadn’t really explored any of that growing up, but I could with The Sims.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Sexuality didn’t necessarily exist in The Sims 1. None of the characters had any sexual preference. If they had a high enough relationship score with the player, it would unlock romantic interactions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Sexuality didn’t necessarily exist in The Sims 1. None of the characters had any sexual preference. If they had a high enough relationship score with the player, it would unlock romantic interactions.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Everybody was just default pansexual, right? And that was really fascinating to kind of see how the game chose not to make a choice for me, but waited for me to make that choice and drive the direction of these stories. Like being able to woohoo and kiss and just have dates with other characters in ways that maybe you wouldn’t feel comfortable doing in public.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Everybody was just default pansexual, right? And that was really fascinating to kind of see how the game chose not to make a choice for me, but waited for me to make that choice and drive the direction of these stories. Like being able to woohoo and kiss and just have dates with other characters in ways that maybe you wouldn’t feel comfortable doing in public.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Same-sex couples couldn’t get married like straight Sims couples, but if they moved in together, the game treated them as if they were married anyway. The Sims 2 came out in 2004 and introduced gender preference to the game. It was a weighted system, hidden from players but shifted based on player choices. Think of a scale, tipping one way or the other depending on romantic interactions. So, if a female Sim flirted with a female character, they’d both develop a preference for women, and then autonomously flirt with other female Sims. And then those Sims would autonomously flirt with other female Sims, shifting their preferences. In other words, in The Sims 2, being gay was contagious. And although none of the pre-made characters were explicitly LGBTQ, there were a few that were coded to be queer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Same-sex couples couldn’t get married like straight Sims couples, but if they moved in together, the game treated them as if they were married anyway. The Sims 2 came out in 2004 and introduced gender preference to the game. It was a weighted system, hidden from players but shifted based on player choices. Think of a scale, tipping one way or the other depending on romantic interactions. So, if a female Sim flirted with a female character, they’d both develop a preference for women, and then autonomously flirt with other female Sims. And then those Sims would autonomously flirt with other female Sims, shifting their preferences. In other words, in The Sims 2, being gay was contagious. And although none of the pre-made characters were explicitly LGBTQ, there were a few that were coded to be queer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> I found Sims 2 versions where we’d told stories about queer couples, um, and it was in the text and maybe how we set some of the parameters. I didn’t realize that until I started digging into the actual history. Um, and I kind of learned that the team has started, not started, but has always included the things that allow gender expression to happen in whatever way we felt comfortable, the person setting it up felt comfortable. So you’ll see it in descriptions, you’ll it in stories of the characters.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> I found Sims 2 versions where we’d told stories about queer couples, um, and it was in the text and maybe how we set some of the parameters. I didn’t realize that until I started digging into the actual history. Um, and I kind of learned that the team has started, not started, but has always included the things that allow gender expression to happen in whatever way we felt comfortable, the person setting it up felt comfortable. So you’ll see it in descriptions, you’ll it in stories of the characters.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The game also allowed Sims to formally propose to each other and plan weddings, regardless of gender. Players would have to buy a special in-game wedding object: a floral arch. When they clicked on it, if they were in a straight relationship, a bubble would pop up that said, “Get married,” triggering a cutscene where the two Sims would exchange rings and cry.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The game also allowed Sims to formally propose to each other and plan weddings, regardless of gender. Players would have to buy a special in-game wedding object: a floral arch. When they clicked on it, if they were in a straight relationship, a bubble would pop up that said, “Get married,” triggering a cutscene where the two Sims would exchange rings and cry.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Sims 2 wedding in Simlish from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>[Speaking Simlish]\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Sims 2 wedding in Simlish from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>[Speaking Simlish]\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It was basically the same thing for same-sex couples — but their bubble would say, “Join Union.” Today, that does seem pretty discriminatory. But back then, most states didn’t even offer domestic partnerships or civil unions for same-sex couples. The fact that you could have an in-game gay wedding at all was a pretty big deal.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It was basically the same thing for same-sex couples — but their bubble would say, “Join Union.” Today, that does seem pretty discriminatory. But back then, most states didn’t even offer domestic partnerships or civil unions for same-sex couples. The fact that you could have an in-game gay wedding at all was a pretty big deal.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Gay marriage was not a acceptable thing at the time, it was not legally approved. And just being able to have those joined unions, being able actually to have a situation where I can take the stories I’m playing out and have a lesbian couple and a gay couple and have the feeling that they are a family, they’re a collective.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Gay marriage was not a acceptable thing at the time, it was not legally approved. And just being able to have those joined unions, being able actually to have a situation where I can take the stories I’m playing out and have a lesbian couple and a gay couple and have the feeling that they are a family, they’re a collective.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And, I’m not gonna lie, as a kid, I used to stay up late on YouTube watching videos of gay weddings in The Sims 2 on the family computer. The scenes were always set to very on-the-nose music, like Katy Perry’s, “I Kissed a Girl,” or the theme song from The L Word. But as a queer preteen, the videos were eye-opening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And, I’m not gonna lie, as a kid, I used to stay up late on YouTube watching videos of gay weddings in The Sims 2 on the family computer. The scenes were always set to very on-the-nose music, like Katy Perry’s, “I Kissed a Girl,” or the theme song from The L Word. But as a queer preteen, the videos were eye-opening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> And The Sims, because of that first kiss, right? From the moment that happened, it felt like both the players and the creators, like the teams that are working on this product, felt a little bit of freedom to do what we needed to do to just express as many versions of life as we could.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> And The Sims, because of that first kiss, right? From the moment that happened, it felt like both the players and the creators, like the teams that are working on this product, felt a little bit of freedom to do what we needed to do to just express as many versions of life as we could.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> When The Sims 3 came out in 2009, the United States was at a real inflection point for marriage equality. Obergefell v. Hodges, the landmark Supreme Court ruling that established marriage as a fundamental right for same-sex couples, was still years away. So you could get gay married in The Sims 3, but none of the game’s pre-made characters were officially gay. Pre-made Sims are fully fleshed out characters with backstories and relationships and skills and homes — already established by developers. But, just because characters weren’t explicitly gay doesn’t mean that they didn’t exist. The game included several characters that were heavily implied to be LGBTQ. Like, a household of two women were labeled “roommates,” but they sleep in two beds pushed together in their pre-made house. Or, two guys labeled “best friends” who lived with their adopted daughter who has both of their last names.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> When The Sims 3 came out in 2009, the United States was at a real inflection point for marriage equality. Obergefell v. Hodges, the landmark Supreme Court ruling that established marriage as a fundamental right for same-sex couples, was still years away. So you could get gay married in The Sims 3, but none of the game’s pre-made characters were officially gay. Pre-made Sims are fully fleshed out characters with backstories and relationships and skills and homes — already established by developers. But, just because characters weren’t explicitly gay doesn’t mean that they didn’t exist. The game included several characters that were heavily implied to be LGBTQ. Like, a household of two women were labeled “roommates,” but they sleep in two beds pushed together in their pre-made house. Or, two guys labeled “best friends” who lived with their adopted daughter who has both of their last names.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> We create characters that live in the world and have stories that they should be pre-built with. And those stories start by applying their preferences, their traits, their aspirations and their wants. And those tools give us a lot of control to say, “What is this initial starting story that the player might be jumping into if they play with a household that already exists?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> We create characters that live in the world and have stories that they should be pre-built with. And those stories start by applying their preferences, their traits, their aspirations and their wants. And those tools give us a lot of control to say, “What is this initial starting story that the player might be jumping into if they play with a household that already exists?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The year before The Sims 3 release, Prop 8 passed in California, banning same-sex marriage. A federal court later struck it down, and in June 2013, California Governor Jerry Brown ordered county clerks to resume issuing marriage licenses for gay couples. Which is where we get this meme of then-Attorney General Kamala Harris.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The year before The Sims 3 release, Prop 8 passed in California, banning same-sex marriage. A federal court later struck it down, and in June 2013, California Governor Jerry Brown ordered county clerks to resume issuing marriage licenses for gay couples. Which is where we get this meme of then-Attorney General Kamala Harris.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Kamala Harris from X]: \u003c/strong>You must start marriages immediately. You must start the marriages immediately.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Kamala Harris from X]: \u003c/strong>You must start marriages immediately. You must start the marriages immediately.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Later that year, The Sims 3 released an expansion pack called Roaring Heights, and with it, the first explicitly LGBTQ characters.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Later that year, The Sims 3 released an expansion pack called Roaring Heights, and with it, the first explicitly LGBTQ characters.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> So the Roaring Heights couple, the Dylan and Audrey, was really the first time I think we’d actually put a lesbian couple in a world as an actual family with the correct settings that said, “Hey, we are married, we’re a couple.” And that felt pretty transformative. So, right around the time that Prop 8 got overturned is kind of when we started introducing that as an actual element in the game, so players could experience it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> So the Roaring Heights couple, the Dylan and Audrey, was really the first time I think we’d actually put a lesbian couple in a world as an actual family with the correct settings that said, “Hey, we are married, we’re a couple.” And that felt pretty transformative. So, right around the time that Prop 8 got overturned is kind of when we started introducing that as an actual element in the game, so players could experience it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> At that point, the next game in the series, The Sims 4, was already in the works. It was released in 2014, and this was the version that really transformed what it means to be represented in games, beyond who can woohoo and marry. In The Sims 4, the team tackled a new frontier: gender. Time for a new tab. Can a cat be non-binary? Two years after The Sims 4 release, the game underwent a major character customization overhaul. So, when you start a new game, you have the option to play as a pre-made household, or customize one yourself. That part is called Create-A-Sim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> At that point, the next game in the series, The Sims 4, was already in the works. It was released in 2014, and this was the version that really transformed what it means to be represented in games, beyond who can woohoo and marry. In The Sims 4, the team tackled a new frontier: gender. Time for a new tab. Can a cat be non-binary? Two years after The Sims 4 release, the game underwent a major character customization overhaul. So, when you start a new game, you have the option to play as a pre-made household, or customize one yourself. That part is called Create-A-Sim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> We started with male/female as the default for base game and we realized that just wasn’t good enough, right? We wanted to be able to allow, again, better representation, more nuance into the choice. So we quickly realized that thinking about maybe masculine or feminine expression is how we wanna actually tackle this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> We started with male/female as the default for base game and we realized that just wasn’t good enough, right? We wanted to be able to allow, again, better representation, more nuance into the choice. So we quickly realized that thinking about maybe masculine or feminine expression is how we wanna actually tackle this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims 4 offers a series of gender-related choices for players to choose from. They can choose whether their Sim has a masculine frame or a feminine frame. And from there, choose whether they prefer masculine clothing or feminine clothing. It actually went further than just appearance. The game is rated T for Teen. Sims never get naked, unless you’re playing with a spicy mod. Wicked Whims players, you know who you are. But for the official game… That limitation, not showing body parts, got the development team to think about gender and expression beyond what’s assigned at birth.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims 4 offers a series of gender-related choices for players to choose from. They can choose whether their Sim has a masculine frame or a feminine frame. And from there, choose whether they prefer masculine clothing or feminine clothing. It actually went further than just appearance. The game is rated T for Teen. Sims never get naked, unless you’re playing with a spicy mod. Wicked Whims players, you know who you are. But for the official game… That limitation, not showing body parts, got the development team to think about gender and expression beyond what’s assigned at birth.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Different clothing preferences, regardless of what my physical appearance actually is. Being able to set whether I can get pregnant or not, or I stand up at the toilet instead of sitting down. It’s not about labeling. It’s about thinking about what is the behavior that’s happening and letting players choose what portion of that behavior is important to them. That’s why peeing standing up or using the toilet standing up is the approach instead of saying, “I have a specific body part,” right? That’s less important. It’s about the behavior.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Different clothing preferences, regardless of what my physical appearance actually is. Being able to set whether I can get pregnant or not, or I stand up at the toilet instead of sitting down. It’s not about labeling. It’s about thinking about what is the behavior that’s happening and letting players choose what portion of that behavior is important to them. That’s why peeing standing up or using the toilet standing up is the approach instead of saying, “I have a specific body part,” right? That’s less important. It’s about the behavior.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This new framing of gender led to the first canonically trans character, the spellcaster Morgyn Ember, who can’t get pregnant, can’t other Sims pregnant, has a masculine frame, and wears feminine clothing. Some players tried to romance Morgyn and were confused about their gender. In 2022, Morgyn’s pronouns were updated to they/them. It was part of a bigger game update that allowed players to set unique pronouns for their Sims. Updating a game like this, which has versions in many different languages, was actually pretty complicated. Only English versions of the game have customizable pronouns, which has been disappointing to some players. Here’s Jessica Croft again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This new framing of gender led to the first canonically trans character, the spellcaster Morgyn Ember, who can’t get pregnant, can’t other Sims pregnant, has a masculine frame, and wears feminine clothing. Some players tried to romance Morgyn and were confused about their gender. In 2022, Morgyn’s pronouns were updated to they/them. It was part of a bigger game update that allowed players to set unique pronouns for their Sims. Updating a game like this, which has versions in many different languages, was actually pretty complicated. Only English versions of the game have customizable pronouns, which has been disappointing to some players. Here’s Jessica Croft again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The pronouns update was something that I think was very important to our community, especially obviously non-binary folks within our community. The difficulty there is just simply, language itself is not fully aligned on how to handle things like pronouns. They are heavily gendered and in a way where if you don’t study those things at all you might not realize it’s not just about translating a pronoun, it things like adjectives, articles, even past tense verbs are gendered in these places. And then further, some languages do have gender-neutral words, but they are restricted for objects. So, there’s a certain thing where it’s like, if we use that kind of language, does it cause additional problems?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The pronouns update was something that I think was very important to our community, especially obviously non-binary folks within our community. The difficulty there is just simply, language itself is not fully aligned on how to handle things like pronouns. They are heavily gendered and in a way where if you don’t study those things at all you might not realize it’s not just about translating a pronoun, it things like adjectives, articles, even past tense verbs are gendered in these places. And then further, some languages do have gender-neutral words, but they are restricted for objects. So, there’s a certain thing where it’s like, if we use that kind of language, does it cause additional problems?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it’s a cliché saying, but perfect is the enemy of good. We wanted to get something out there that did a lot of good work, that represented a lot folks and made people feel seen, um, as soon as we could. And I think it’s one of those things where if you wait until you get the perfect version of something, where you solve all the problems, where we figure out how to do pronouns in every language, you might never release that thing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it’s a cliché saying, but perfect is the enemy of good. We wanted to get something out there that did a lot of good work, that represented a lot folks and made people feel seen, um, as soon as we could. And I think it’s one of those things where if you wait until you get the perfect version of something, where you solve all the problems, where we figure out how to do pronouns in every language, you might never release that thing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This game has been out for 12 years now, and in that time, there have been dozens of additional packs — extra contents that includes new worlds, new features, and new pre-made characters. Every time it gets updated, it affects years of pre-existing game content.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This game has been out for 12 years now, and in that time, there have been dozens of additional packs — extra contents that includes new worlds, new features, and new pre-made characters. Every time it gets updated, it affects years of pre-existing game content.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> The Sims is a little bit weird. We have robots and we have skeletons and we have lots of other things that maybe you can ask yourself, “Do they have gender? Should they have gender?” Cats and dogs, when we did the non-binary update… You can make a cat and a dog non-binary, that’s okay. So really it comes down to character by character and thinking about is it important for this character to have an identity?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> The Sims is a little bit weird. We have robots and we have skeletons and we have lots of other things that maybe you can ask yourself, “Do they have gender? Should they have gender?” Cats and dogs, when we did the non-binary update… You can make a cat and a dog non-binary, that’s okay. So really it comes down to character by character and thinking about is it important for this character to have an identity?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think at one point we had non-binary horses in the horse pack, which, I’m sure those players were like, “Well, you should have just kept that,” and like, maybe, but it was definitely unintentional. When you work with a game like The Sims that’s just layers and layers of systems sitting on top of each other, you get these knock-on effects of some choices you make that are occasionally hilarious.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think at one point we had non-binary horses in the horse pack, which, I’m sure those players were like, “Well, you should have just kept that,” and like, maybe, but it was definitely unintentional. When you work with a game like The Sims that’s just layers and layers of systems sitting on top of each other, you get these knock-on effects of some choices you make that are occasionally hilarious.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> After the pronoun update, the Sims 4 unveiled its crown jewel for character customization: a giant overhaul of in-game sexual orientation. Jessica was actually leading the design for an expansion pack all about high school. The development team had been working on fine-tuning Sim sexuality, and Jessica pitched releasing that update with a high school expansion. Why there?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> After the pronoun update, the Sims 4 unveiled its crown jewel for character customization: a giant overhaul of in-game sexual orientation. Jessica was actually leading the design for an expansion pack all about high school. The development team had been working on fine-tuning Sim sexuality, and Jessica pitched releasing that update with a high school expansion. Why there?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> It’s a pack about high school that… It’s about being a teenager, it’s about figuring out who you are. That’s where, in real life a lot of folks do figure out who they are and start exploring questions of their sexuality. So it felt like the right place to do it and the team just rallied around that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> It’s a pack about high school that… It’s about being a teenager, it’s about figuring out who you are. That’s where, in real life a lot of folks do figure out who they are and start exploring questions of their sexuality. So it felt like the right place to do it and the team just rallied around that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And, like with a gender update, this wasn’t a simple matter of slapping on some labels and letting players pick one. It had to be functional in gameplay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And, like with a gender update, this wasn’t a simple matter of slapping on some labels and letting players pick one. It had to be functional in gameplay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The space is so nuanced, the definitions folks have for certain words can differ, in ways where painting with a broad brush on what these labels mean can become incredibly divisive. That was one of the things that we discovered really quickly, working with GLAAD and It Gets Better, that fact. So eventually, we got to a spot where we didn’t use labels. It’s just strictly defining the characteristics of who you’re attracted to and the types of things that you’re into, to craft what is effectively a sexual orientation without the label.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The space is so nuanced, the definitions folks have for certain words can differ, in ways where painting with a broad brush on what these labels mean can become incredibly divisive. That was one of the things that we discovered really quickly, working with GLAAD and It Gets Better, that fact. So eventually, we got to a spot where we didn’t use labels. It’s just strictly defining the characteristics of who you’re attracted to and the types of things that you’re into, to craft what is effectively a sexual orientation without the label.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So instead of picking from a menu of words like: “lesbian,” “gay,” “bi,” “asexual,” players just pick the genders they’re attracted to and whether they’re interested in romantic relationships and woohoo-ing. They also don’t have to make a decision. There’s an option for exploring. Jessica said this was also important to include because figuring it out is also a part of real life sexuality. However, players cannot opt out of this aspect of the game entirely. There’s no way to default set all Sims to be straight. When the update first came out, Jessica wrote this in a blog post.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So instead of picking from a menu of words like: “lesbian,” “gay,” “bi,” “asexual,” players just pick the genders they’re attracted to and whether they’re interested in romantic relationships and woohoo-ing. They also don’t have to make a decision. There’s an option for exploring. Jessica said this was also important to include because figuring it out is also a part of real life sexuality. However, players cannot opt out of this aspect of the game entirely. There’s no way to default set all Sims to be straight. When the update first came out, Jessica wrote this in a blog post.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think something along the lines of, “While we generally give players the option to toggle off certain gameplay elements, LGBTQIA+ identities are a fact of life, and not just a toggle you can switch on and off.” I stand by that statement. I frankly don’t care if you don’t like certain people. You can’t just turn them off, right? In real life or in a game. And I think it’s important to stand on business there. We want to commit to our vision for diversity and representation within The Sims, and that’s not a thing you get to just turn off.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think something along the lines of, “While we generally give players the option to toggle off certain gameplay elements, LGBTQIA+ identities are a fact of life, and not just a toggle you can switch on and off.” I stand by that statement. I frankly don’t care if you don’t like certain people. You can’t just turn them off, right? In real life or in a game. And I think it’s important to stand on business there. We want to commit to our vision for diversity and representation within The Sims, and that’s not a thing you get to just turn off.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims has come so far since the accidental sapphic kiss 27 years ago. It’s way more inclusive, but far from perfect. Despite the expanded framing of gender, the whole system still operates within a binary.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims has come so far since the accidental sapphic kiss 27 years ago. It’s way more inclusive, but far from perfect. Despite the expanded framing of gender, the whole system still operates within a binary.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> When The Sims was originally engineered, in its very core, like, structural bones, there’s a gender binary. And that next step is like, how do we break this game out of this gender binary? It’s a tricky thing. It would require like this foundational rework of like, so many systems. If at some point we’re able to do an update to, to fully break the game out this gender binary like, foundation it has, that would be so meaningful. It would open up a lot of gameplay, too. Again, it’s immensely tricky. It’s like, a thing that would require really re-engineering a good chunk of the foundation of the game to make happen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> When The Sims was originally engineered, in its very core, like, structural bones, there’s a gender binary. And that next step is like, how do we break this game out of this gender binary? It’s a tricky thing. It would require like this foundational rework of like, so many systems. If at some point we’re able to do an update to, to fully break the game out this gender binary like, foundation it has, that would be so meaningful. It would open up a lot of gameplay, too. Again, it’s immensely tricky. It’s like, a thing that would require really re-engineering a good chunk of the foundation of the game to make happen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There have been some workarounds though. Loel talked about this recent feature that he really loves.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There have been some workarounds though. Loel talked about this recent feature that he really loves.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> So, one of my favorite things that we have added were binders and chest, uh… top surgery scars. Um, and those… Sorry, I get a little emotional talking about it. So my husband is trans. Being able to create his character before that transition after he came out, and have a screenshot of our family, my husband, my daughter, and me just in a space was really impactful. So while it didn’t physically bind the chest, just being able to put on a binder is a step in that transition of his story was really impactful. There’s so many different ways in which people live and have transitions. If I can give one little thing to any player that lets them tell those stories, it’s really important. And those little updates just make such an impact on being able to both represent yourself and feel like yourself in this digital world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> So, one of my favorite things that we have added were binders and chest, uh… top surgery scars. Um, and those… Sorry, I get a little emotional talking about it. So my husband is trans. Being able to create his character before that transition after he came out, and have a screenshot of our family, my husband, my daughter, and me just in a space was really impactful. So while it didn’t physically bind the chest, just being able to put on a binder is a step in that transition of his story was really impactful. There’s so many different ways in which people live and have transitions. If I can give one little thing to any player that lets them tell those stories, it’s really important. And those little updates just make such an impact on being able to both represent yourself and feel like yourself in this digital world.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’ve been playing The Sims for over half my life, and created so many different lives within the game. I still think about one of my first playthroughs. It was The Sims 3. I moved my Sim to a tropical island, fell in love with a mermaid, and we settled down on a houseboat together. At 13, being openly gay seemed just as fantastical as proposing to a mermaid. The whimsical queer life I built in that save file unfortunately came to an end —when my kitchen caught fire, with my Sims still in it, and instead of helping, my mermaid wife got stuck on a random floor tile and died of dehydration. The whole house boat went down. It was devastating. So, I started another save, and then another, and then probably a couple hundred more. And today, being openly gay isn’t that absurd at all. There’s a reason queer people make up such a large portion of The Sims player base. We reached out to Simmers to hear what this game has meant to them over the years. Here’s what they had to say.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’ve been playing The Sims for over half my life, and created so many different lives within the game. I still think about one of my first playthroughs. It was The Sims 3. I moved my Sim to a tropical island, fell in love with a mermaid, and we settled down on a houseboat together. At 13, being openly gay seemed just as fantastical as proposing to a mermaid. The whimsical queer life I built in that save file unfortunately came to an end —when my kitchen caught fire, with my Sims still in it, and instead of helping, my mermaid wife got stuck on a random floor tile and died of dehydration. The whole house boat went down. It was devastating. So, I started another save, and then another, and then probably a couple hundred more. And today, being openly gay isn’t that absurd at all. There’s a reason queer people make up such a large portion of The Sims player base. We reached out to Simmers to hear what this game has meant to them over the years. Here’s what they had to say.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plumbella: \u003c/strong>Will be the first Simmer to hold my hands up and say I was a bit too interested in making my Sims kiss Sims of the same sex. And I think that for a lot of queer people, they will also be able to trace their own gameplay in The Sims back and have a lot of things suddenly make sense.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plumbella: \u003c/strong>Will be the first Simmer to hold my hands up and say I was a bit too interested in making my Sims kiss Sims of the same sex. And I think that for a lot of queer people, they will also be able to trace their own gameplay in The Sims back and have a lot of things suddenly make sense.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Owen McHall: \u003c/strong>The Sims was the first game I ever played where I could make the player character trans.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephen Works (SpringSims): \u003c/strong>It felt more like home… It felt like my safe space where I could be who I want, how I want without any fear of judgment. As a queer Black male, I was able to recreate myself authentically from my skin tone to my hair type, to the clothing options. There were so many stories that I have told and created and shaped that I knew it was like, “This is where I wanna be for the rest of my life.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephen Works (SpringSims): \u003c/strong>It felt more like home… It felt like my safe space where I could be who I want, how I want without any fear of judgment. As a queer Black male, I was able to recreate myself authentically from my skin tone to my hair type, to the clothing options. There were so many stories that I have told and created and shaped that I knew it was like, “This is where I wanna be for the rest of my life.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mivyard:\u003c/strong> For me, as a queer kid growing up in a Christian school, I definitely felt like I had to be quiet about who I was and I didn’t see a lot of role models at school. And so, having The Sims as a tool for exploration and expression really helped me find a sense of belonging and it helped me feel confident, and proud of who I was.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mivyard:\u003c/strong> For me, as a queer kid growing up in a Christian school, I definitely felt like I had to be quiet about who I was and I didn’t see a lot of role models at school. And so, having The Sims as a tool for exploration and expression really helped me find a sense of belonging and it helped me feel confident, and proud of who I was.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tonya (Gryphi): \u003c/strong>If I could have two girls kiss and fall in love in this game, then maybe it was okay in real life as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tonya (Gryphi): \u003c/strong>If I could have two girls kiss and fall in love in this game, then maybe it was okay in real life as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plumbella: \u003c/strong>Being able to fall in with whoever you wanted might have been an oversight of the developers, it might have an accident that they forgot to write in the code. It’s ended up that in a time where it wasn’t really okay to be anything outside of the norm, The Sims has been a beacon of inclusivity, and that’s just grown over the years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plumbella: \u003c/strong>Being able to fall in with whoever you wanted might have been an oversight of the developers, it might have an accident that they forgot to write in the code. It’s ended up that in a time where it wasn’t really okay to be anything outside of the norm, The Sims has been a beacon of inclusivity, and that’s just grown over the years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This game has come to mean so much to so many queer players. It’s made such huge strides for LGBTQ inclusion — meaningful representation, without feeling like some kind of corporate pandering. But today, a lot of those players are really, deeply concerned about the future of The Sims. Late last year, Electronic Arts confirmed that the entire brand and its catalog, including The Sims, had been sold to private investors, a cohort that includes Jared Kushner’s firm, Affinity Partners, and Saudi Arabia’s Sovereign Wealth Fund.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This game has come to mean so much to so many queer players. It’s made such huge strides for LGBTQ inclusion — meaningful representation, without feeling like some kind of corporate pandering. But today, a lot of those players are really, deeply concerned about the future of The Sims. Late last year, Electronic Arts confirmed that the entire brand and its catalog, including The Sims, had been sold to private investors, a cohort that includes Jared Kushner’s firm, Affinity Partners, and Saudi Arabia’s Sovereign Wealth Fund.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kayla Sims (LilSimsie): \u003c/strong>It’s also a $55 billion deal, which is completely unprecedented. I mean, it’s hard to even, like, fathom the scale of that, but that actually is more than the entire music industry combined.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kayla Sims (LilSimsie): \u003c/strong>It’s also a $55 billion deal, which is completely unprecedented. I mean, it’s hard to even, like, fathom the scale of that, but that actually is more than the entire music industry combined.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Kayla Sims, better known online as LilSimsie, is one of the the creators speaking out about this deal.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Kayla Sims, better known online as LilSimsie, is one of the the creators speaking out about this deal.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kayla Sims (LilSimsie): \u003c/strong>And there’s a lot of concerns about censorship within The Sims, I think also, because of those new owners that do not have a great track record with human rights. They actually have a direct track record of criminalizing LGBTQ+ expression. And so a lot queer players of The Sims are really, really worried about those new owners for that reason, too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kayla Sims (LilSimsie): \u003c/strong>And there’s a lot of concerns about censorship within The Sims, I think also, because of those new owners that do not have a great track record with human rights. They actually have a direct track record of criminalizing LGBTQ+ expression. And so a lot queer players of The Sims are really, really worried about those new owners for that reason, too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So, we’re extending our deep dive. We have a few more tabs on what this deal really entails, how players are responding, and what The Sims team says about the future of the game. I’m gonna leave these tabs open for now. Come back next week for the second half of the story. And, if you’re dying for more before then, stick around after the credits for some bonus content.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So, we’re extending our deep dive. We have a few more tabs on what this deal really entails, how players are responding, and what The Sims team says about the future of the game. I’m gonna leave these tabs open for now. Come back next week for the second half of the story. And, if you’re dying for more before then, stick around after the credits for some bonus content.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva with production help from Francesca Fenzi. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and did the dramatic reading for this episode.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva with production help from Francesca Fenzi. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and did the dramatic reading for this episode.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro V2 switches.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro V2 switches.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Special thanks to the Simmers who contributed voice notes for this episode: Plumbella, Owen McHall, SpringSims, Mivyard, and Griphy. And thank you to John Fecile, senior producer for KQED’s Snap Judgment, for the tape of his interview with Will Wright. Thanks for listening!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Special thanks to the Simmers who contributed voice notes for this episode: Plumbella, Owen McHall, SpringSims, Mivyard, and Griphy. And thank you to John Fecile, senior producer for KQED’s Snap Judgment, for the tape of his interview with Will Wright. Thanks for listening!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I remember when the update for, I think it was maybe High School Years, when the sexuality update first came out, people were upset that the Grim Reaper was now asexual. They just really wanted to bang the Grim Reaper.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I mean, in Life and Death, we went back and made Grim woohoo-able again. Players have a fascination with our special characters… And at some point, the ownership of the thing becomes the person’s and not the dev team’s. Yeah, so yeah, Grim is an interesting case.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I mean, in Life and Death, we went back and made Grim woohoo-able again. Players have a fascination with our special characters… And at some point, the ownership of the thing becomes the person’s and not the dev team’s. Yeah, so yeah, Grim is an interesting case.\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Did The Sims make you gay?” is a long-running joke among Sims players. For millions, \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> has been more than a video game — it’s been a place to experiment, tell stories, and explore identity. Long before LGBTQ representation became common in mainstream games, \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> allowed same-sex relationships, helping create a devoted queer fan base that reshaped what players expected from virtual worlds.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>In this episode, Morgan Sung talks with \u003cem>The Sims 4\u003c/em> senior designer Jessica Croft and Electronic Arts’ senior game design director Loel Phelps about the game’s unlikely emergence as one of the most queer-inclusive franchises in gaming. They explore the legendary story of how same-sex romance accidentally made it into the original game, the challenges of translating sexuality and gender into game systems, why so many LGBTQ players discovered their own identities in \u003cem>The Sims\u003c/em> long before they felt safe doing so in real life — and why some players are worried about where the game might be headed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC3392561231\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>Jessica Croft, senior designer and lead designer at EA on The Sims 4\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>Loel Phelps, senior game design director at Maxis\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/the-kiss-that-changed-video-games\">The Kiss That Changed Video Games\u003c/a> — Simon Parkin, \u003cem>The New Yorker\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pcgamer.com/unearthed-the-sims-design-docs-show-the-debate-over-same-sex-relationships/\">Unearthed The Sims design docs show the internal debate over same-sex relationships\u003c/a> — Steven Messner, \u003cem>PC Gamer\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi-HWyh0Ybk\">Did The Sims make you gay? – a video essay.\u003c/a> — Alexander Avila, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bricksmagazine.co.uk/2020/08/27/the-sims-knew-i-was-queer-before-i-did/\">The Sims Knew I Was Queer Before I Did \u003c/a>— Megan Elliot,\u003cem>BRICKS Magazine\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/games/2022/feb/22/gay-weddings-for-russia-how-the-sims-became-a-battleground-for-the-lgbtq-community\">Gay weddings for Russia: How The Sims became a battleground for the LGBTQ+ community \u003c/a>— Tom Regan, \u003cem>The Guardian\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://frvr.com/blog/news/the-sims-designer-says-that-the-series-diversity-is-critical-especially-at-times-like-now/\">The Sims designer says that the series’ diversity is “critical, especially at times like now” as the games must recognise “the fundamental truths of our humanity” to stay successful \u003c/a>— Lewis White, \u003cem>FIVR\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a tabby or a tab head or part of the tab hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us. Under our watch, every tab in the land will be closed. Eventually. I mean, I have like 15 open right now. Okay, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the other day, I got out of bed and I did my normal morning chores. Fed the chickens, watered my crops, and checked in on my sweet baby cow plant. He ate one of my friends last week, so I’m keeping him on a really strict feeding schedule so he doesn’t try it again. I kissed my wife goodbye before she left for her job as an undertaker, and then I started getting ready for my job as a Grim Reaper. I just got promoted to Soul Slayer, which is a pretty big deal. Lots of responsibility there. But, just as I was about to leave, the gnomes started spawning around my house again. They went around breaking all my stuff, and when I tried to stop them, they had the audacity to strike me with lightning. Just another typical day in The Sims.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This franchise has been wildly popular since the first Sims game came out 26 years ago. It’s like a virtual dollhouse. You control these dolls, called Sims, and help them fulfill goals, manage their needs, and interact with their world. I love it. For the last 14 years, my sister and I have shared an account just to play this game. And together, We’ve logged more than 6,000 hours in The Sims 4 alone. I’m kind of scared to check where we clocked in on The Sims 3. The game is constantly evolving and adapting to whatever the current culture is. And in addition to some very silly gameplay, The Sims has become this oasis for diversity and representation. In queer spaces, Sims players, also known as Simmers, love to ask each other this question. Did The Sims make you gay? Why is that, you may ask?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> Because it made a lot of people gay\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jessica Croft is a senior designer for The Sims 4. She’s had a hand in designing some of the features that make the game so unique, like the sexual orientation system. More on that later. The Sims is iconic because of its freedom. It lets players experience the game however they want. That freedom has given rise to a few distinct types of simmers. You might be a builder. Spending hours constructing and decorating complex architectural marvels. Maybe you’re a storyteller who plays the game like an eternal personal soap opera, or a completionist trying to get every possible achievement in the game. And at some point in their life, every Simmer has been a chaos agent, setting things on fire, ruining in-game relationships, even removing the ladder from their Sim’s pool so they get stuck and drown. You know. Playing God.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I would say it’s, to me, a storytelling tool. So you’re playing this game about everyday life, and in that game, you’re gonna have stories emerge around the characters you play. But I think ultimately, to try and characterize The Sims as one thing, kind of does it an injustice because it’s so many things to so many people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There are so many ways to play this game, but for a lot of players, including myself, The Sims provided this safe little sandbox to figure out who they were.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think the fact that Sims is about crafting characters that might literally look, act, and have the same life you do has led a lot of folks to exploring who they are through The Sims. And I think it seems like a small thing, it’s just a game, like what’s the big deal? I figured out who I was through seeing myself in media because it let me know that who I am is okay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> A few years ago, Jessica led the Sims sexual orientation update. It was huge both for players and for the games industry overall. It allowed players to set specific parameters for who their Sims were attracted to and what kind of relationships they were interested in. But for years before this update ever rolled out, the game had already attracted a dedicated queer player base. In fact, same-sex relationships were possible from the very beginning when The Sims 1 launched in 2000. Jessica says this decision shifted the whole industry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> Back then it was pretty rare to have same-sex relationships in the game. And you saw more and more and more coming at that moment until where you are now where it’s actually pretty unusual I would say for a game where you create a character and embody that character to not have the option to have a same-sex relationship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And since those early days, The Sims has grown into the symbol of LGBTQ representation, getting more inclusive with every update. In other words, it’s gotten more gay. Today, The Sims is arguably the most explicitly queer mainstream game ever made. So how did we get here? We’re diving into a topic I love yapping about, The Sims. From the game’s origin story, to the character lore, to the technical snafus involved in coding sexuality, we’re opening a bunch of tabs on how this game became an oasis for LGBTQ representation, and why some players are worried that might change. So, a gay history of The Sims. Ready?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, let’s open our first tab. The Sims Gay Origin Story. The Sims is the brainchild of Will Wright, co-founder of the legendary game studio, Maxis, and creator of SimCity, SimEarth, and other beloved titles. This story starts in 1991, when Will and his family lost everything in the deadly Oakland Berkeley firestorm. In the aftermath, he and his wife began rebuilding, assessing what they needed and what it actually took to make a home. He had an idea for a life simulator, one that was totally open-ended. Where players start from scratch. Here he is speaking to KQED’s Snap Judgment for an upcoming episode that dives even deeper into this origin story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Will Wright: \u003c/strong>The goal is meant to be for the player to choose. So you can play The Sims and say, “Okay, I want my Sims to be super happy,” or “I want them to be top of their career,” or they have the biggest mansion with the most friends or the most babies, whatever. What I’d rather produce is present a series of possible goals. And I think that’s much more meaningful. And it makes it more about you. So, you know, you’re actually pursuing a goal that means something to you and you’re the one kind of measuring your progress.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It was a revolutionary idea in gaming at the time, but it had trouble gaining traction. The game had been stuck in development hell since the early 90s. The studio behind the game, Maxis, had been acquired by EA, Electronic Arts, while The Sims was still in development. And it was during this time that the first decisions around sexuality were being made. Will wanted to include same-sex relationships in the game because it was supposed to reflect real life. But it came on the heels of a major scandal in another Maxis game, the 1996 flight simulator, SimCopter.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of SimCopter review from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>A bunch of dudes wearing Speedos that start kissing each other loudly. Not only that, but you can jump out and start making out with them yourself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This was a joke programmed into the game by one of the developers, which could be triggered when a player met certain criteria. That developer was later fired for including it. So when it came to The Sims a few years later, the team was understandably worried about backlash. And after a lot of back and forth,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The team had decided that they weren’t going to do same-sex relationships in the original Sims game.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Jessica was a teenager at the time. She was not working on the game back then. But the lore of the game’s origin has been passed down through generations of developers. That’s because the queer legacy of The Sims, and everything it’s come to mean to LGBTQ players, started with a mistake.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The dev who was coding the game was new to the team, and I guess he didn’t get the memo, or didn’t read the design doc, couldn’t be me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That programmer was Patrick Barrett, and according to an interview he did with The New Yorker in 2014, he did read the design document. Just the wrong version. Here’s what happened. It was the late 90s. Soon after Patrick joined the team, the game’s lead programmer went on vacation. Someone handed Patrick the design documents that outlined how all social interactions between characters in the game should be coded. But… He was given a version of the document from before the team decided to exclude gay relationships. So, Patrick wrote up the code for Sim conversations, arguments, and romance. And in Patrick’s version, romances between Sims of the same gender were allowed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>No one mentioned it. E3 was coming up, the hottest, most prestigious games industry convention of its time. And this was supposed to be the Sims big debut. Patrick was asked to put together a gameplay demo, which highlighted these different scripted scenarios for The Sims. One of them was a wedding. There were so many Sims attending that Patrick didn’t have time to script all of their interactions. That meant some of the characters would act autonomously.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> They put everything together, shipped it off, and then at the trade show in front of a gigantic crowd and like one of the biggest trade shows for our industry, in front everybody, two female Sims kissed each other and everyone just went nuts. Like, it was one of those things where the cat was totally out of the bag. There was such buzz coming out of that moment that it had to be part of the game from that point on. And even though we got there by accident, I’m not picky. I’m glad it happened at all. And from that moment, The Sims kind of became the tip of the spear.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This blunder at a trade show 27 years ago set something in motion that is still reverberating today. But considering how foundational the story is to Sims lore, I wanted to verify it. Is there anything backing up this story? Consider this our first side quest, tracking down the receipts. This much I can say. There’s no footage of this legendary kiss happening. While working on this episode, I spent days scrubbing through archived forums, interviews with Will Wright, and B-roll from news broadcasts covering the Sims demo. There is a lot of coverage of E3 in 1999.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Lauren Fielder for GameSpot TV from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Here we are! We’re on the floor of the Electronic Entertainment Expo in Los Angeles, California, with a special edition of GameSpot TV.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Some news reports have a sentence or two about The Sims, like a Washington Post write-up that called it, “a quiet little game,” and, “a surprise hit.” But there’s barely any coverage with details about The Sims demo. What I did manage to dig up is from a German DVD showcasing PC games that debuted at E3.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of DVD demo in German from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>[Speaking German]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The part mentioning the Sims is just 22 seconds long. The fabled kiss does not appear. So I scrubbed through, no joke, hours of show footage from that year’s convention. This is the pre-vlogging era. I’m talking shaky camcorder clips, unedited, capturing these little snippets of what gaming was like in 1999.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of E3 convention in 1999 from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>You can be a master if you try! Pokemon! The adventure begins with the TV show…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> These scenes were lost to time until someone found the tapes, digitized them, and then uploaded them to YouTube decades later. I found a brief flash of the Sims booth in one video, but the camera holder didn’t bother to focus on the screen. On the internet, there’s no mention of this groundbreaking lesbian kiss until 2014, when The New Yorker published the interview with Patrick Barrett. We tried reaching out to the programmer through multiple contact methods, but didn’t get a response. I even friended him on Facebook. But, crickets. Maybe one day, someone will uncover and digitize the grainy camcorder footage of the kiss that changed it all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What we do have is confirmation of an internal struggle at Maxis over whether to include same-sex relationships at all. In 2019, another programmer, Don Hopkins, released the design documents from 1998, months before that infamous E3 game demo. He criticized the prototype’s strictly enforced heterosexuality. In one version, trying to initiate a kiss with a Sim of the same gender would actually result in the Sim getting slapped. Here’s a note that Don left in the document.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Dramatic reading of Don’s comment by Chris Egusa]: \u003c/strong>We are going to be expected to do better than that after the SimCopter fiasco and the lip service that Maxis publicly gave in response about not being anti-gay. And anyone offended by that needs to grow up and get a life. And hopefully our game will help them in that quest.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims debuted at E3 months later. Gay romance and all. The full game was released the next year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> So it’s, it’s 2000, young Jessica is 16. Uh, and I’m reading my PC Mag, because we had physical media back then. And I see this article about this new game, The Sims, and it is not like anything else I’ve ever seen. It’s this quirky little game where instead of like, being a warrior, a wizard, or like flying spaceships, you’re just living a life. And to me I’m like, “How could that possibly be fun?” is my first thought. And then my second thought, “I’m kind of curious.” I want to see why people think this is fun. And I load up, I play it, and it just opened up this whole new space for me. And I’m like, “Huh, this is actually really interesting playing a game about just the everyday life of a character.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims was a hit. Critics praised it for the character customization, the totally unique gameplay, and the storytelling. For a lot of players, the best part was that they could be gay in the game.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think like, so often when you talk about representation, the first of something, the first time you see a same-sex couple in like a major production, the first time you see a trans character in a major like piece of media, that really signals to everyone else that like, “Hey, you know, we can explore these spaces and we can tell these authentic stories and represent folks that are not represented,” and largely, it’s gonna be fine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There were limits. Like, straight Sims could get married, but gay Sims couldn’t. Okay. But, it was 26 years ago. And as cultural norms evolved, so did the game. But video games function based on defined rules. So, how do you fit something as nuanced as sexuality into lines of code? How does introducing human concepts of gender into a game alter non-human characters? And how did these updates affect the beloved Simmer tradition of woohoo-ing the Grim Reaper? (Woohoo-ing, by the way, is the Sims version of sex). We’re opening a tab on that in just a minute. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcast. Okay, after the break: more on the gay history of The Sims. Welcome back. Let’s open another tab: a Gay History of the Sims.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> The game, like, it didn’t say queer or not queer. It was, I was interacting and I chose to kiss a man and the game would be like, “Okay.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Lowell Phelps is a senior game design director at EA, and he’s worked on The Sims for over 15 years. He calls himself “a shepherd of ideas,” for the game. He spends a lot of time researching human psychology and how it can be applied to game design. But for many years before that, he was a college student living in a dorm with five other guys when The Sims 1 came out. How his life turned out today didn’t even seem like a possibility back then.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> I have a husband, I have child, like this is kind of my culture, even though I hadn’t really explored any of that growing up, but I could with The Sims.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Sexuality didn’t necessarily exist in The Sims 1. None of the characters had any sexual preference. If they had a high enough relationship score with the player, it would unlock romantic interactions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Everybody was just default pansexual, right? And that was really fascinating to kind of see how the game chose not to make a choice for me, but waited for me to make that choice and drive the direction of these stories. Like being able to woohoo and kiss and just have dates with other characters in ways that maybe you wouldn’t feel comfortable doing in public.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Same-sex couples couldn’t get married like straight Sims couples, but if they moved in together, the game treated them as if they were married anyway. The Sims 2 came out in 2004 and introduced gender preference to the game. It was a weighted system, hidden from players but shifted based on player choices. Think of a scale, tipping one way or the other depending on romantic interactions. So, if a female Sim flirted with a female character, they’d both develop a preference for women, and then autonomously flirt with other female Sims. And then those Sims would autonomously flirt with other female Sims, shifting their preferences. In other words, in The Sims 2, being gay was contagious. And although none of the pre-made characters were explicitly LGBTQ, there were a few that were coded to be queer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> I found Sims 2 versions where we’d told stories about queer couples, um, and it was in the text and maybe how we set some of the parameters. I didn’t realize that until I started digging into the actual history. Um, and I kind of learned that the team has started, not started, but has always included the things that allow gender expression to happen in whatever way we felt comfortable, the person setting it up felt comfortable. So you’ll see it in descriptions, you’ll it in stories of the characters.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The game also allowed Sims to formally propose to each other and plan weddings, regardless of gender. Players would have to buy a special in-game wedding object: a floral arch. When they clicked on it, if they were in a straight relationship, a bubble would pop up that said, “Get married,” triggering a cutscene where the two Sims would exchange rings and cry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Sims 2 wedding in Simlish from YouTube]: \u003c/strong>[Speaking Simlish]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It was basically the same thing for same-sex couples — but their bubble would say, “Join Union.” Today, that does seem pretty discriminatory. But back then, most states didn’t even offer domestic partnerships or civil unions for same-sex couples. The fact that you could have an in-game gay wedding at all was a pretty big deal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Gay marriage was not a acceptable thing at the time, it was not legally approved. And just being able to have those joined unions, being able actually to have a situation where I can take the stories I’m playing out and have a lesbian couple and a gay couple and have the feeling that they are a family, they’re a collective.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And, I’m not gonna lie, as a kid, I used to stay up late on YouTube watching videos of gay weddings in The Sims 2 on the family computer. The scenes were always set to very on-the-nose music, like Katy Perry’s, “I Kissed a Girl,” or the theme song from The L Word. But as a queer preteen, the videos were eye-opening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> And The Sims, because of that first kiss, right? From the moment that happened, it felt like both the players and the creators, like the teams that are working on this product, felt a little bit of freedom to do what we needed to do to just express as many versions of life as we could.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> When The Sims 3 came out in 2009, the United States was at a real inflection point for marriage equality. Obergefell v. Hodges, the landmark Supreme Court ruling that established marriage as a fundamental right for same-sex couples, was still years away. So you could get gay married in The Sims 3, but none of the game’s pre-made characters were officially gay. Pre-made Sims are fully fleshed out characters with backstories and relationships and skills and homes — already established by developers. But, just because characters weren’t explicitly gay doesn’t mean that they didn’t exist. The game included several characters that were heavily implied to be LGBTQ. Like, a household of two women were labeled “roommates,” but they sleep in two beds pushed together in their pre-made house. Or, two guys labeled “best friends” who lived with their adopted daughter who has both of their last names.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> We create characters that live in the world and have stories that they should be pre-built with. And those stories start by applying their preferences, their traits, their aspirations and their wants. And those tools give us a lot of control to say, “What is this initial starting story that the player might be jumping into if they play with a household that already exists?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The year before The Sims 3 release, Prop 8 passed in California, banning same-sex marriage. A federal court later struck it down, and in June 2013, California Governor Jerry Brown ordered county clerks to resume issuing marriage licenses for gay couples. Which is where we get this meme of then-Attorney General Kamala Harris.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Kamala Harris from X]: \u003c/strong>You must start marriages immediately. You must start the marriages immediately.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Later that year, The Sims 3 released an expansion pack called Roaring Heights, and with it, the first explicitly LGBTQ characters.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> So the Roaring Heights couple, the Dylan and Audrey, was really the first time I think we’d actually put a lesbian couple in a world as an actual family with the correct settings that said, “Hey, we are married, we’re a couple.” And that felt pretty transformative. So, right around the time that Prop 8 got overturned is kind of when we started introducing that as an actual element in the game, so players could experience it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> At that point, the next game in the series, The Sims 4, was already in the works. It was released in 2014, and this was the version that really transformed what it means to be represented in games, beyond who can woohoo and marry. In The Sims 4, the team tackled a new frontier: gender. Time for a new tab. Can a cat be non-binary? Two years after The Sims 4 release, the game underwent a major character customization overhaul. So, when you start a new game, you have the option to play as a pre-made household, or customize one yourself. That part is called Create-A-Sim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> We started with male/female as the default for base game and we realized that just wasn’t good enough, right? We wanted to be able to allow, again, better representation, more nuance into the choice. So we quickly realized that thinking about maybe masculine or feminine expression is how we wanna actually tackle this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims 4 offers a series of gender-related choices for players to choose from. They can choose whether their Sim has a masculine frame or a feminine frame. And from there, choose whether they prefer masculine clothing or feminine clothing. It actually went further than just appearance. The game is rated T for Teen. Sims never get naked, unless you’re playing with a spicy mod. Wicked Whims players, you know who you are. But for the official game… That limitation, not showing body parts, got the development team to think about gender and expression beyond what’s assigned at birth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Different clothing preferences, regardless of what my physical appearance actually is. Being able to set whether I can get pregnant or not, or I stand up at the toilet instead of sitting down. It’s not about labeling. It’s about thinking about what is the behavior that’s happening and letting players choose what portion of that behavior is important to them. That’s why peeing standing up or using the toilet standing up is the approach instead of saying, “I have a specific body part,” right? That’s less important. It’s about the behavior.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This new framing of gender led to the first canonically trans character, the spellcaster Morgyn Ember, who can’t get pregnant, can’t other Sims pregnant, has a masculine frame, and wears feminine clothing. Some players tried to romance Morgyn and were confused about their gender. In 2022, Morgyn’s pronouns were updated to they/them. It was part of a bigger game update that allowed players to set unique pronouns for their Sims. Updating a game like this, which has versions in many different languages, was actually pretty complicated. Only English versions of the game have customizable pronouns, which has been disappointing to some players. Here’s Jessica Croft again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The pronouns update was something that I think was very important to our community, especially obviously non-binary folks within our community. The difficulty there is just simply, language itself is not fully aligned on how to handle things like pronouns. They are heavily gendered and in a way where if you don’t study those things at all you might not realize it’s not just about translating a pronoun, it things like adjectives, articles, even past tense verbs are gendered in these places. And then further, some languages do have gender-neutral words, but they are restricted for objects. So, there’s a certain thing where it’s like, if we use that kind of language, does it cause additional problems?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s a cliché saying, but perfect is the enemy of good. We wanted to get something out there that did a lot of good work, that represented a lot folks and made people feel seen, um, as soon as we could. And I think it’s one of those things where if you wait until you get the perfect version of something, where you solve all the problems, where we figure out how to do pronouns in every language, you might never release that thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This game has been out for 12 years now, and in that time, there have been dozens of additional packs — extra contents that includes new worlds, new features, and new pre-made characters. Every time it gets updated, it affects years of pre-existing game content.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> The Sims is a little bit weird. We have robots and we have skeletons and we have lots of other things that maybe you can ask yourself, “Do they have gender? Should they have gender?” Cats and dogs, when we did the non-binary update… You can make a cat and a dog non-binary, that’s okay. So really it comes down to character by character and thinking about is it important for this character to have an identity?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think at one point we had non-binary horses in the horse pack, which, I’m sure those players were like, “Well, you should have just kept that,” and like, maybe, but it was definitely unintentional. When you work with a game like The Sims that’s just layers and layers of systems sitting on top of each other, you get these knock-on effects of some choices you make that are occasionally hilarious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> After the pronoun update, the Sims 4 unveiled its crown jewel for character customization: a giant overhaul of in-game sexual orientation. Jessica was actually leading the design for an expansion pack all about high school. The development team had been working on fine-tuning Sim sexuality, and Jessica pitched releasing that update with a high school expansion. Why there?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> It’s a pack about high school that… It’s about being a teenager, it’s about figuring out who you are. That’s where, in real life a lot of folks do figure out who they are and start exploring questions of their sexuality. So it felt like the right place to do it and the team just rallied around that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And, like with a gender update, this wasn’t a simple matter of slapping on some labels and letting players pick one. It had to be functional in gameplay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> The space is so nuanced, the definitions folks have for certain words can differ, in ways where painting with a broad brush on what these labels mean can become incredibly divisive. That was one of the things that we discovered really quickly, working with GLAAD and It Gets Better, that fact. So eventually, we got to a spot where we didn’t use labels. It’s just strictly defining the characteristics of who you’re attracted to and the types of things that you’re into, to craft what is effectively a sexual orientation without the label.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So instead of picking from a menu of words like: “lesbian,” “gay,” “bi,” “asexual,” players just pick the genders they’re attracted to and whether they’re interested in romantic relationships and woohoo-ing. They also don’t have to make a decision. There’s an option for exploring. Jessica said this was also important to include because figuring it out is also a part of real life sexuality. However, players cannot opt out of this aspect of the game entirely. There’s no way to default set all Sims to be straight. When the update first came out, Jessica wrote this in a blog post.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> I think something along the lines of, “While we generally give players the option to toggle off certain gameplay elements, LGBTQIA+ identities are a fact of life, and not just a toggle you can switch on and off.” I stand by that statement. I frankly don’t care if you don’t like certain people. You can’t just turn them off, right? In real life or in a game. And I think it’s important to stand on business there. We want to commit to our vision for diversity and representation within The Sims, and that’s not a thing you get to just turn off.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The Sims has come so far since the accidental sapphic kiss 27 years ago. It’s way more inclusive, but far from perfect. Despite the expanded framing of gender, the whole system still operates within a binary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Croft:\u003c/strong> When The Sims was originally engineered, in its very core, like, structural bones, there’s a gender binary. And that next step is like, how do we break this game out of this gender binary? It’s a tricky thing. It would require like this foundational rework of like, so many systems. If at some point we’re able to do an update to, to fully break the game out this gender binary like, foundation it has, that would be so meaningful. It would open up a lot of gameplay, too. Again, it’s immensely tricky. It’s like, a thing that would require really re-engineering a good chunk of the foundation of the game to make happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> There have been some workarounds though. Loel talked about this recent feature that he really loves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> So, one of my favorite things that we have added were binders and chest, uh… top surgery scars. Um, and those… Sorry, I get a little emotional talking about it. So my husband is trans. Being able to create his character before that transition after he came out, and have a screenshot of our family, my husband, my daughter, and me just in a space was really impactful. So while it didn’t physically bind the chest, just being able to put on a binder is a step in that transition of his story was really impactful. There’s so many different ways in which people live and have transitions. If I can give one little thing to any player that lets them tell those stories, it’s really important. And those little updates just make such an impact on being able to both represent yourself and feel like yourself in this digital world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’ve been playing The Sims for over half my life, and created so many different lives within the game. I still think about one of my first playthroughs. It was The Sims 3. I moved my Sim to a tropical island, fell in love with a mermaid, and we settled down on a houseboat together. At 13, being openly gay seemed just as fantastical as proposing to a mermaid. The whimsical queer life I built in that save file unfortunately came to an end —when my kitchen caught fire, with my Sims still in it, and instead of helping, my mermaid wife got stuck on a random floor tile and died of dehydration. The whole house boat went down. It was devastating. So, I started another save, and then another, and then probably a couple hundred more. And today, being openly gay isn’t that absurd at all. There’s a reason queer people make up such a large portion of The Sims player base. We reached out to Simmers to hear what this game has meant to them over the years. Here’s what they had to say.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plumbella: \u003c/strong>Will be the first Simmer to hold my hands up and say I was a bit too interested in making my Sims kiss Sims of the same sex. And I think that for a lot of queer people, they will also be able to trace their own gameplay in The Sims back and have a lot of things suddenly make sense.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Owen McHall: \u003c/strong>The Sims was the first game I ever played where I could make the player character trans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephen Works (SpringSims): \u003c/strong>It felt more like home… It felt like my safe space where I could be who I want, how I want without any fear of judgment. As a queer Black male, I was able to recreate myself authentically from my skin tone to my hair type, to the clothing options. There were so many stories that I have told and created and shaped that I knew it was like, “This is where I wanna be for the rest of my life.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mivyard:\u003c/strong> For me, as a queer kid growing up in a Christian school, I definitely felt like I had to be quiet about who I was and I didn’t see a lot of role models at school. And so, having The Sims as a tool for exploration and expression really helped me find a sense of belonging and it helped me feel confident, and proud of who I was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tonya (Gryphi): \u003c/strong>If I could have two girls kiss and fall in love in this game, then maybe it was okay in real life as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plumbella: \u003c/strong>Being able to fall in with whoever you wanted might have been an oversight of the developers, it might have an accident that they forgot to write in the code. It’s ended up that in a time where it wasn’t really okay to be anything outside of the norm, The Sims has been a beacon of inclusivity, and that’s just grown over the years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This game has come to mean so much to so many queer players. It’s made such huge strides for LGBTQ inclusion — meaningful representation, without feeling like some kind of corporate pandering. But today, a lot of those players are really, deeply concerned about the future of The Sims. Late last year, Electronic Arts confirmed that the entire brand and its catalog, including The Sims, had been sold to private investors, a cohort that includes Jared Kushner’s firm, Affinity Partners, and Saudi Arabia’s Sovereign Wealth Fund.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kayla Sims (LilSimsie): \u003c/strong>It’s also a $55 billion deal, which is completely unprecedented. I mean, it’s hard to even, like, fathom the scale of that, but that actually is more than the entire music industry combined.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Kayla Sims, better known online as LilSimsie, is one of the the creators speaking out about this deal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kayla Sims (LilSimsie): \u003c/strong>And there’s a lot of concerns about censorship within The Sims, I think also, because of those new owners that do not have a great track record with human rights. They actually have a direct track record of criminalizing LGBTQ+ expression. And so a lot queer players of The Sims are really, really worried about those new owners for that reason, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> So, we’re extending our deep dive. We have a few more tabs on what this deal really entails, how players are responding, and what The Sims team says about the future of the game. I’m gonna leave these tabs open for now. Come back next week for the second half of the story. And, if you’re dying for more before then, stick around after the credits for some bonus content.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva with production help from Francesca Fenzi. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and did the dramatic reading for this episode.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro V2 switches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Special thanks to the Simmers who contributed voice notes for this episode: Plumbella, Owen McHall, SpringSims, Mivyard, and Griphy. And thank you to John Fecile, senior producer for KQED’s Snap Judgment, for the tape of his interview with Will Wright. Thanks for listening!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I remember when the update for, I think it was maybe High School Years, when the sexuality update first came out, people were upset that the Grim Reaper was now asexual. They just really wanted to bang the Grim Reaper.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Loel Phelps:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I mean, in Life and Death, we went back and made Grim woohoo-able again. Players have a fascination with our special characters… And at some point, the ownership of the thing becomes the person’s and not the dev team’s. Yeah, so yeah, Grim is an interesting case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "how-to-prove-youre-not-ai",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">During a recent phone call, BBC tech columnist Thomas Germain couldn’t convince his aunt that he \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">wasn’t\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> AI. Being unable to distinguish a real person from a fabricated version is a problem born from the sheer volume of AI-generated content flooding the internet — and one that’s increased dramatically in the last year alone. Even world leaders are now plagued by the issue: a glitchy video of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sparked an enduring conspiracy theory that he was really dead and his public appearances on social media were an AI-driven cover up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a world where everything looks fake, how do we know what’s real? Thomas joins the show to explain how we got here, where we might be headed, and a surprisingly analog technique that could save you from getting scammed by a deepfaked version of a loved one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6560300791\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/future/author/thomas-germain\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thomas Germain\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, co-host of the podcast \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Interface\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, and tech columnist at the\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> BBC\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20260324-i-tried-to-prove-im-not-an-ai-deepfake\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I tried to prove I’m not AI. My aunt wasn’t convinced\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Thomas Germain, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BBC \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/audio/brand/m002qwn7\">The Interface Podcast\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003ci>BBC\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/tech/895453/ai-deepfake-netanyahu-claims-conspiracy\">Benjamin Netanyahu is struggling to prove he’s not an AI clone \u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jess Weatherbed, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>The Verge\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2026/03/14/business/media/iran-disinfo-artificial-intelligence.html\">Cascade of A.I. Fakes About War With Iran Causes Chaos Online \u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Stuart A. Thompson and Alexander Cardia, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>The New York Times \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/experts-warn-collapse-trust-online-ai-deepfakes-venezuela-rcna252472\">AI is intensifying a ‘collapse’ of trust online, experts say\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Angela Yang, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>NBC News\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/deepfakes-elections-and-shrinking-liars-dividend\">Deepfakes, Elections, and Shrinking the Liar’s Dividend\u003c/a> — Josh A. Goldstein, \u003ci>Brennan Center for Justice\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? It would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Send it to your friends, your frenemies, that one niche micro-influencer you kind of have a parasocial relationship with. Maybe they’ll respond, I don’t know. All right, let’s get to the show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When we talk about deepfakes and AI, often what we’re thinking about is the idea that you’re gonna get tricked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Thomas Germain. He’s the cohost of the podcast The Interface, and also a tech columnist at the BBC. His column, Keeping Tabs, covers tech and how it affects average people every day. So, like many journalists on this beat, he’s been keeping an eye on the uptick in deep fake scams.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Someone’s going to scam you, they’re going to try and fool you into thinking that they’re someone else.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fakes are synthetic media, images, videos, or audio recordings that have been generated or manipulated by AI to impersonate someone else.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I started thinking about like, what would it be like if the shoe was on the other foot? What if you needed to convince someone that you’re real and you are who you say that you are? How difficult would that be?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Thomas decided to do a little experiment. He called up his aunt Eleanor. Thomas and his aunt Eleanor are very close. She was at the hospital the day he was born and of all of his relatives, she’s the one he calls the most and she’s relatively online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She knows a bit about what’s going on. Her husband, my uncle, is actually a computer science professor. So she gets some of it, but she’s not like up to date on everything that’s happening. And I wanted someone who knows me really, really well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That last part is important. Thomas called his aunt and explained the experiment. He would call her back, and she’d either be talking to the real him, her beloved nephew, or a deep fake, generated by AI. And what Thomas wanted to know was, could she tell the difference?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At first, you know, it was a very fun, like, friendly conversation, but there was this weird, like tension, you know? She said before we even got on the phone, she’s like, “Oh, I’m gonna be really upset if I can’t tell,” you know, because she’s known me since the day I was born, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">His aunt Eleanor tried a few different methods to suss it out. First, she went on Facebook.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And read me like a bunch of jokes that she’s seen that she really liked, to like see what my reaction was. And you know, we’re like different generations, we have different senses of humor. So I’m not sure like, was the test that I would laugh or I wouldn’t laugh. It was kind of funny. That didn’t seem to convince her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So she took a different approach.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She was knitting me a sweater and we hadn’t decided on the color. And like a couple of weeks before we got on the phone. I told her that I was saying I wanted a gold sweater, like kind of gold colored yarn. And then when we were talking, when I was tricking her about AI, she brought it up and she’s like, “so have you decided on the color?” and I was like, “yeah, you know, I think it might just go boring, like just do like a black or like a dark blue or something.” And I think of all the things, that made her the most suspicious because like, ‘I was expecting you to go with like a more exciting color. She’s like “That…. I don’t know, that feels like a robot answer.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s so generic, it can’t possibly be you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I know, but maybe I’m a boring guy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She still couldn’t be sure, so she gave him another test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She asked me for some details about, like, things from my childhood that you would be unlikely to know if you weren’t a member of my family. And I think she found that a little bit reassuring.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But overall, the experience left Aunt Eleanor rattled.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think by the end of the call where she realized she couldn’t be totally sure, it was kind of distressing. You know, like, you’re supposed to know your loved ones, how could it be? And we talked for like 20 minutes or so and by the of it she told me like, “I think it’s the real you, I just can’t be sure, I’m not 100% confident.”.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And at the end I told her it is me, I am not tricking you. But there were all these little things that she was trying to pick up on, and I think this is really important for people to understand, throw that out the window. This technology is so good, I promise you, there is nothing that you can do to tell that you’re not looking at an AI, and if you convince yourself that you could figure it out by just like thinking really hard and being careful, you are more likely to get in trouble and get fooled.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is way bigger than Thomas duping his aunt. It’s a real world problem. Every day, deep fake scams and AI generated disinformation lead people astray. Which is why the general public is becoming so distrustful of everything online. When everything could be fake, how do you tell what’s real and what’s not?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kicking this off as always, let’s open a new tab: the Netanyahu deep fake death rumor. In March, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu gave a televised update on the war in Iran. A clip of it was posted on his official X account.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Audio clip of Benjamin Netanyahu addressing Israeli people in Hebrew]\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Citizens of Israel, my brothers and sisters, we are in historic times…\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Something about that video seemed off.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s one moment where he kind of waves his hand in front of the camera and if you freeze frame it at just the right second, it kind of looks like he’s got a sixth finger on his hand.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Screenshots of this moment started making the rounds. And if you’re just scrolling by and you see this freeze frame out of context, it would probably raise a few alarm bells, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It really looks weird. It’s like, it looks like this weird digital glitch and because it’s a video, you know, it’s little grainy it’s pixelated.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this rumor started swirling around online. Was this televised speech really Netanyahu? Or was it a deep fake?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And people latched onto this because for the longest time, AI image and video generators really struggled with hands. Right? They were trained to focus on faces, hands were this thing they picked up along the way and they couldn’t get the hands just right. That was true two or three years ago. Right? The technology has advanced past that point. It’s not true that AI struggles with hands anymore. That isn’t really an issue, but this was enough and it does look weird if you pause at the right frame.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thus, a conspiracy theory was born: Netanyahu was dead, and this was the cover-up. It didn’t help that the Prime Minister’s health had been the subject of public speculation for years. He had emergency heart surgery in 2023, and then a year later, underwent treatment for prostate cancer. And then there’s the war in Iran. The U.S. and Israel killed the Iranian supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>[Audio clip from Global News Youtube post]\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\nIn Tehran, thousands gathered to mourn the death of the supreme leader. Similar protests were held in cities around the world including…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In retaliation, Iran’s Revolutionary Guard has vowed to hunt down and target Netanyahu personally. The seed of doubt over Netanyahu’s health was already planted. Then, the wonky six-fingered video launched the conspiracy theory into the mainstream.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was enough that some large swath of people latched on to this idea that Netanyahu had been killed in a missile strike, and the Israeli government was hiding the truth and making AI videos to convince the world that he was still alive, to what aim, I’m not exactly sure. It turned into, you know, such like a meme, essentially. Like, the conversation got so big that it was enough that Netnyahu posted another video.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cb>[Audio clip from Benjamin Netanyahu’s post on X] \u003c/b>\u003c/em>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voice behind camera: Do you want to show us?\u003cbr>\nNetanyahu: Here. Here.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This video takes place in a coffee shop near Jerusalem. The camera approaches Netanyahu, and the voice behind it says, they’re saying on the internet that you’re actually dead. Netanyah, holding a latte, tells the camera, I’m dying for a coffee. And then he holds up his hand and says, do you want to count the fingers?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He did a terrible job with it for a couple of reasons. If the goal was convincing the public. Number one, I talked to a bunch of people about this and they’re like, the worst thing you can do is come out and deny it because it makes it look like you’ve got something to hide. Right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And there is still something off about the video. It was almost uncanny. He looked super crisp and almost too smooth. It only fueled the conspiracy theories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They shot this on like a nice DSLR, like one of those big cameras, which is how AI videos look. Right? They’re trained on high quality content, high quality videos, so they produce what looks like smoother, polished, high quality video. So it looked a little bit more like AI than it would have if he had just used a phone to record it. So that, I think, just sent people spiraling even more. Nobody was convinced by this, as far as I could tell. The people who had latched on, if anything, it just reaffirmed their belief that the bad guys were trying to trick them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s the thing about conspiracy theories. Once you’re convinced, everything else just seems like confirmation of what you already believe. People took screenshots, zoomed in, tried to find inconsistencies in the backgrounds of the video. Joe Rogan, for one, seemed pretty convinced.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cb>[Audio clip from The Joe Rogan Experience] \u003c/b>\u003c/em>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Look at this. Yeah, like the coffee. Look how turned it is, but it doesn’t spill at all. It just wiggles to the edge.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He talked about it on his podcast, which has over 20 million followers on YouTube. And of course, that just spread the rumor further. I saw claims that if you zoomed in on the date on the register, the pixels didn’t look right. So surely it was fake. Right? Or that the video itself was real, but it wasn’t actually Netanyahu. It was really an actor deep faked to look like Netanyahu and the shadows gave it away. Or, that when he put his hands in his pocket, the fabric of his jacket seemed to smooth over.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the thing about reality is it’s weird. Right? Like, if you look close enough at anything you’ll find weird stuff but especially with digital photography, digital video, it’s the way that the sensors work, like, errors are actually inherent to the way that a digital camera sensor functions. So if you zoom in on any video, if you’re, like, watching a clip from this podcast on social media, zoom in, take a screenshot and zoom in, you will find something weird. That’s just how digital images work, that there’ll be some little grainy thing, there’ll be some glitch. And I think it’s important for people to understand that unless you have serious expertise on this subject, you aren’t qualified to make that kind of call. I am not qualified to make that knd of, I think about this stuff all the time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For his column, Thomas talked to a few of the world’s leading experts on this, including Jeremy Carrasco. He runs a publication called Riddance, which investigates AI-generated media.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he went through, he analyzed it, he determined it was real. I talked to professors, I talked to some people who were like, real world leading experts on digital forensics is what they call it, like figuring out what the origin of a file is. They said there is no doubt. It is impossible that these videos are AI-generated. Like, this thing where it sort of looked like Netanyahu had a sixth finger, even if you watch the clip, instead of looking at a freeze frame, you can kind of see there’s like a shadow on his hand and that’s what it is. It looks weird if you take a screenshot at the right second, but the video itself, it’s very clearly real. This was not enough. And I think that is kind of part of the problem is that we’ve lived through an era where there’s been an assault on expertise, right? That, you know, real conscious, intentional efforts to discredit traditional forms of you know, authority on truth.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thomas also talked to Hany Farid, a professor at UC Berkeley who’s known as the father of digital forensics. He pioneered this field of examining files and figuring out if they’re real.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s one of these guys that’s constantly watching this stuff. And he says, you can see the progression of AI and deep fake technology if you look at some of the recent global conflicts. Like, if we go back to the beginning of the war in Ukraine, it was almost all real footage. Like, every once in a while, you’d see something AI-generated, but for the most part, it was all real. Fast forward to the conflict in Gaza and it was starting to get to the point where there was more AI-generated content. It was a little harder to sort the real from the truth. You get to when the U.S. invaded Venezuela, and it was about 50-50. Right? You’re seeing as much fake stuff as real stuff if you just go out and look at a random video on the subject on the internet. By the time we got to the war in Iran, there’s more fake footage, there’s more fake clips, there is more mis and disinformation than there is real stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A few weeks ago, we dove into the slopaganda coming out of Iran, those AI-generated Lego rap videos dissing the U.S. They’re clearly not real, but they still push specific narratives to the American public. But there’s another kind of AI- generated media at play here: videos that look real but portray events that never happened, like AI-generated footage of Iranian missiles sinking U.S. ships and bombarding civilians in Tel Aviv.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In less than six months, we had this dramatic shift where I think people in power who’ve got like, you know, a game to play, they’ve got something that they want to try and convince the public of, they’ve realized that this technology is something they can put into play. There are whole operations that are ready to get off the ground at a moment’s notice to like, fill the world with fakery and lies. I think that is a real serious problem, I mean, even for journalists, even in the media. Like, it used to be if you saw something that was recorded with a camera, you know, in the not too distant past, it was almost certainly real. Right? Because it took so much effort, especially for video, so much effort to fake something in a convincing way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now I can do it like while I’m washing the dishes. I could reach over and hammer something out of my phone and generate a fake video. For the average person, I think this means that you are constantly inundated with nonsense. You are being exposed to lies on a near constant basis. It’s not just that the image looks real, it’s not just the video looks real. The thing that’s happening is so close to real life. Right? And if you’re a person who watches a lot of short form video and social media, if like scrolling through Instagram Reels or TikTok, the chances that you have seen a piece of AI content and been fooled that it was real, I’d say in the last week, are extremely high.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Actual footage, meanwhile, has been written off as fake and AI. When the U.S. bombed an elementary school in Iran, killing 120 children, some people online questioned whether footage of the aftermath was authentic. It didn’t help that the true photos and videos were mixed in with AI-generated depictions of what happened. It’s one thing for digital forensics experts, like Hany Farid, to sift through all of the slop and determine what’s real. It’s another for these experts to get the public to actually trust them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It leads to an information ecosystem, you know, a landscape of truth where everything is up for debate. Nothing is set in stone and everything is suspect. And that leads to some new ways that power can be abused and people can be taken advantage of.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The conspiracy theories over Netanyahu’s death have not stopped. The follow-up videos and public appearances after the coffee shop debacle only fueled the rumors further. In March, Netanyahu appeared in a video with Mike Huckabee, who is now the ambassador to Israel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cb>[Audio clip from Benjamin Netanyahu’s post on X] \u003c/b>\u003c/em>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mike Huckabee: Mr. Prime Minister, I wanted you to know, the President asked me to come and make sure you were okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Benjamin Netanyahu: Yes, Mike. Yes, I’m alive.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If anything, it only convinced people that Huckabee was also a deepfake. On X and TikTok, people did the same exact thing they did to previous videos, zoomed in, slowed down, cropped screenshots, and looked for any anomaly that could confirm their theories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cem>[Audio clip from a post on the TikTok account of @ragingprestigemaster3.0]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The picture you’re seeing right up here, that’s not his ear, fam.\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that is a truly historical moment. This is, according to everyone that I asked, the first time that the leader of a major world power has like openly gone out in front of the public to try and convince people that he’s not an AI. And I think it’s a sign of a very rocky period that we’re about to enter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does this mean for media literacy, our ability to parse the truth from fiction? Well, it definitely does not bode well for the information ecosystem. It’s really easy to take advantage of public distrust and write off real evidence as fake and AI. We’re going to talk about liars and disinformation in a new tab, after a quick break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, after the break, we’re coming back to bunnies on a trampoline. Stick around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Time to open a new tab: the liar’s dividend.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A while back there was this video of, it looked like night camera footage and it was bunnies jumping on a trampoline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You remember this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I got duped by that. I have a sense of whimsy. \u003cem>[laughter]\u003c/em> I thought it was real.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I fell for it too at first, you know, I saw that and I was like, wow, like maybe the world’s okay after all, like there’s still, you, know, there’s still nice cute things happening. No, turns out it was fake. Millions of people saw this. That doesn’t matter. Right? It’s not going to affect your day or your life that the bunnies aren’t real. But you’re seeing stuff that is a little bit more consequential, that is maybe affecting your beliefs about how the world works or what is happening. And I think this adds up to a lot of people being led astray in ways that are really, really subtle.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because anything online could be fake, people have become suspicious of everything.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that creates a situation where if there’s ever any reason to doubt that something is real, then it immediately falls apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a media phenomenon called “the liar’s dividend.” Legal scholars coined the term back in 2018 in a paper about how deep fakes, truth decay, and cognitive bias affect the information ecosystem. They thought it was bad back then? They could not have predicted today. Anyway, so what exactly is “the liar’s dividend”?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It takes time or resources to verify that something is real. It’s free to cast doubt. It’s free to say that’s fake, right? It takes no effort at all. And once you raise those suspicions, you can take advantage of that. Right? I can say, ‘oh, that’s a fake news, that didn’t happen.’ And that gives people in power the ability to cast doubt on anything that isn’t convenient for whatever their goals happen to be.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, we’ve reached the point where you cannot trust your eyes, like, that ship has sailed, it’s over. You can’t tell whether you’re looking at an AI video or not. You certainly can’t tell whether your looking at a image. They’ve gotten so good that our physiology does not allow you to deal with this problem.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You don’t have to be a major world leader to be affected by this. Before he wrote about this deep, fake situation, Thomas worked on this story about a safety tool that wipes your personal information from Google search results. Like every other tech journalist, he’s really passionate about privacy. So he was chugging coffee, writing this article…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I got myself all worked up and I put in my family group chat, like, “Here’s a link to this setting. Everybody needs to go turn this on right now.” And my mom was like, “Is this really you?” Like, are you, is someone like taking…like that’s…[laughter] and in her defense, it is weird behavior. Right? That’s a strange thing for me to do. You have to use this Google setting right now, that’s something that’s gonna happen to you. Right? You’re gonna be talking to someone, something will be strange. Right? Maybe you’ll be in an emergency. Maybe you will get in a car accident and you call, you know, your wife and be like, I really, I desperately need Amazon gift cards right now. And it’s, it’s real.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If your loved one calls you and urgently tells you that they need those gift cards, it’s probably a scam. But maybe your partner is calling to ask for the password to the family Netflix account. Your best friend lost her passport while on vacation and needs help getting a new one. Or your nephew tells you that he actually wants a blue sweater instead of the gold one you started knitting. These could be real, but how do you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a thing that’s going to happen more and more because we’re living in this world where everything is suspect and if any little doubt comes up, suddenly everything falls apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what is the solution here? Are AI companies or social media platforms doing anything to help differentiate between what’s real and what’s generated? Industry leaders and academics have been pushing for a kind of digital watermark that would be embedded in the file itself, like planting a flag that says AI-generated. And that flag would be planted deep in the pixel data. It would be really difficult to remove. Google Gemini already does this. It’s called Synth ID.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the dream there is we’ll get to a place where like all of the big AI companies or companies that are making these tools will participate in this program and there’ll be some level of checking. On the flip side, there’s efforts to build a similar thing into cameras that when you take an image with a camera, you take a photo or a video, it would embed something in the file that says this was taken by an actual camera. It’s like, this is an image of reality. So far, that technology is not here. Right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We haven’t gotten to the point where that is widespread enough that it can be usable. And hopefully we will arrive at a point where there’s some kind of technical solution or at least technical amelioration to this problem that will like help you sort through it. But we also just need from the social media companies, I think a lot of critics that I speak to say they need to be doing way more to label AI content right now than they are.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On a lot of these platforms, you can upload a piece of footage or an image. They don’t really care whether it’s AI, right? The platforms where we’re getting all of our information could be doing a lot more to let you know that something that you’re looking at is suspicious, but they don’t have a financial incentive to solve that problem. Right? So I think what it really comes down to is we need regulatory approaches to this that will help at least do something to point people in the direction of truth. Not an easy problem to solve, but we haven’t really even tried yet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, well in that case, how do you assure your loved ones that you’re really you? Let’s open our last tab:n how to prove that you are not a deep faith.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this YouTuber, Jim Browning, makes videos about exposing scammers. He recently went super viral with his three-finger test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cb>[Audio from Jim Browning’s Youtube post] \u003c/b>\u003c/em>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jim Browning: Can you like hold up three fingers in front of your face or anything? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Person: Oh, come on, that’s too much.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The reasoning? This would disrupt any face-swapping deep fake program and make it glitch.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Audio from Jim Browning’s Youtube post] \u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jim Browning: Can you do that then? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Person: Uh, I don’t know, it’s too much to ask somebody. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jim Browning: Well, it’ll make sure you’re not AI, is that unreasonable? I mean, can you do that in front of your face? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Person: Well, is that enough? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jim Browning: No, it’s not in front of your face. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The scammer then abruptly ended the call, and in the comments, people were like, this is it. This is the perfect test. This is how to stay safe. But the truth is, this trick has been outdated for years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I could tell you some things that you could look for, some telltale signs for audio and for video, but I’m not going to because if I gave you those tips, it would actually hurt you more than it would help you because in a week or in a month or in six months, they’re going to put out another AI model and those tips that worked last week aren’t going to work now. There is no giveaway that you’re watching an AI video. In fact, maybe the one thing that you can look out for is if you’re a watching a video that’s low quality, that’s grainy, you might be more likely to get fooled because if there is any weird digital artifact, it’ll be harder to see. AI can make high quality video, a low quality grainy pixelated image, that’s not a sign that you are looking at AI. Maybe it’s a sign, if there’s any doubt, that you might want to think twice. But we’ve past that point. Deepfakes are astonishingly good, and they keep getting just a little bit better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luckily, there is one way to protect yourself and your loved ones. And you don’t have to be that tech savvy to do it. It involves gathering up your inner circle. Older relatives, close friends, partners, nibblings, neighbors, basically anyone who could feasibly get this panicked emergency call from someone pretending to be you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You should set up a secret word that you both agree on, that if there’s ever any doubt, you can ask the person for that password and they’ll give it to you and you know you’re talking to the real person. Because I have spoken to people who’ve been scammed, where they get a phone call and it is their husband or their child. I talked to this woman who a scammer set this up and called her and she like swears to this. She’s like, I know it’s fake, but it was my son. It was his voice. It was perfect and they’re really convincing and if you’re going to get scammed what they’re going to do is there’s going to be some emergency you need to deal with right now you’re not going to be in your right mind then it’s like a solution that’s so simple it’s kind of nice in a way that with like such a frighteningly high-tech problem the solution is just speaking words outloud.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This charmingly simple solution is more important than ever, because unfortunately, there’s no going back to the days before AI. But while this code word thing is great for keeping grandma from blowing her life savings on a deepfake scam, it doesn’t help you parse through all of the deepfaked and AI-generated content you come across online. There are still countless ways to get tricked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it will reach the point where for a lot of people, there is no source of truth. Everyone is trying to trick you. And I think there are a lot grifters who will take advantage of that. I think there’s people in power who will see an opportunity and they will seize it. You’ll be able to spin whatever kind of narrative you want because if you’ve got people who trust you, you can say, well, the things that I’m telling you are true and anyone who criticizes me, they’re all part of the lie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My optimistic view is it will get so bad that there will be such a desperate need for trusted institutions that people will step in to fill the void and people will seek out sources of truth that they can rely on and we will rebuild an ecosystem of trust. So I think the advice that would give you is like go find that one person on the internet, someone who’s sincere, who you trust, who you feel has your best interest in mind or maybe in institution. Maybe there’s a publication you like, maybe it’s local news. Try to find sources who you can go to, who you look to when there’s a question, because your eyes and your ears just aren’t gonna cut it anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That being said, when it comes to these personal relationships, sometimes you do need a little trust. Thomas said that he and his aunt Eleanor don’t use a code word every time they talk on the phone.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fortunately, this hasn’t caused any strife between me and my aunt so far. I told her that I wasn’t actually trying to trick her, that it was the real me on the other end of the line, but I hope that this experience was unsettling enough that if there’s ever any reason to doubt, if it’s ever like, hey, I’m in trouble, I need money, or I forgot my password, I hope that she will question it and try and figure out whether it’s really me because at some point someone is going to try and fool all of us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. So when she gets that chaotic text that you actually do want the gold sweater after all, she’ll ask you for your code word.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I do need $600 in Walmart gift cards as soon as possible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So if you do get a call begging for gift cards, it never hurts to double check and ask for the code word. That’s it for this deep dive, but stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor-in-chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, one of the people I interviewed for this story said, “I purchased 25 acres in Vermont so when the world falls apart, I’ll go live on my homestead.” You know, maybe they’ve got the right idea. I don’t know. I don’t have 25 acres in Vermont money myself. So I’m stuck here with the rest of us schlubs, you know, we’re gonna have to deal with the fallout.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "During a recent phone call, BBC tech columnist Thomas Germain couldn’t convince his aunt that he wasn’t AI. Being unable to distinguish a real person from a fabricated version is a problem born from the sheer volume of AI-generated content flooding the internet — and one that’s increased dramatically in the last year alone. Even world leaders are now plagued by the issue: a glitchy video of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sparked an enduring conspiracy theory that he was really dead and his public appearances on social media were an AI-driven cover up. In a world where everything looks fake, how do we know what’s real? Thomas joins the show to explain how we got here, where we might be headed, and a surprisingly analog technique that could save you from getting scammed by a deepfaked version of a loved one.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">During a recent phone call, BBC tech columnist Thomas Germain couldn’t convince his aunt that he \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">wasn’t\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> AI. Being unable to distinguish a real person from a fabricated version is a problem born from the sheer volume of AI-generated content flooding the internet — and one that’s increased dramatically in the last year alone. Even world leaders are now plagued by the issue: a glitchy video of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sparked an enduring conspiracy theory that he was really dead and his public appearances on social media were an AI-driven cover up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a world where everything looks fake, how do we know what’s real? Thomas joins the show to explain how we got here, where we might be headed, and a surprisingly analog technique that could save you from getting scammed by a deepfaked version of a loved one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6560300791\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/future/author/thomas-germain\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thomas Germain\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, co-host of the podcast \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Interface\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, and tech columnist at the\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> BBC\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20260324-i-tried-to-prove-im-not-an-ai-deepfake\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I tried to prove I’m not AI. My aunt wasn’t convinced\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Thomas Germain, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BBC \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/audio/brand/m002qwn7\">The Interface Podcast\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003ci>BBC\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/tech/895453/ai-deepfake-netanyahu-claims-conspiracy\">Benjamin Netanyahu is struggling to prove he’s not an AI clone \u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jess Weatherbed, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>The Verge\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2026/03/14/business/media/iran-disinfo-artificial-intelligence.html\">Cascade of A.I. Fakes About War With Iran Causes Chaos Online \u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Stuart A. Thompson and Alexander Cardia, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>The New York Times \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/experts-warn-collapse-trust-online-ai-deepfakes-venezuela-rcna252472\">AI is intensifying a ‘collapse’ of trust online, experts say\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Angela Yang, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>NBC News\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/deepfakes-elections-and-shrinking-liars-dividend\">Deepfakes, Elections, and Shrinking the Liar’s Dividend\u003c/a> — Josh A. Goldstein, \u003ci>Brennan Center for Justice\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? It would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Send it to your friends, your frenemies, that one niche micro-influencer you kind of have a parasocial relationship with. Maybe they’ll respond, I don’t know. All right, let’s get to the show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When we talk about deepfakes and AI, often what we’re thinking about is the idea that you’re gonna get tricked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Thomas Germain. He’s the cohost of the podcast The Interface, and also a tech columnist at the BBC. His column, Keeping Tabs, covers tech and how it affects average people every day. So, like many journalists on this beat, he’s been keeping an eye on the uptick in deep fake scams.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Someone’s going to scam you, they’re going to try and fool you into thinking that they’re someone else.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fakes are synthetic media, images, videos, or audio recordings that have been generated or manipulated by AI to impersonate someone else.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I started thinking about like, what would it be like if the shoe was on the other foot? What if you needed to convince someone that you’re real and you are who you say that you are? How difficult would that be?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Thomas decided to do a little experiment. He called up his aunt Eleanor. Thomas and his aunt Eleanor are very close. She was at the hospital the day he was born and of all of his relatives, she’s the one he calls the most and she’s relatively online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She knows a bit about what’s going on. Her husband, my uncle, is actually a computer science professor. So she gets some of it, but she’s not like up to date on everything that’s happening. And I wanted someone who knows me really, really well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That last part is important. Thomas called his aunt and explained the experiment. He would call her back, and she’d either be talking to the real him, her beloved nephew, or a deep fake, generated by AI. And what Thomas wanted to know was, could she tell the difference?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At first, you know, it was a very fun, like, friendly conversation, but there was this weird, like tension, you know? She said before we even got on the phone, she’s like, “Oh, I’m gonna be really upset if I can’t tell,” you know, because she’s known me since the day I was born, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">His aunt Eleanor tried a few different methods to suss it out. First, she went on Facebook.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And read me like a bunch of jokes that she’s seen that she really liked, to like see what my reaction was. And you know, we’re like different generations, we have different senses of humor. So I’m not sure like, was the test that I would laugh or I wouldn’t laugh. It was kind of funny. That didn’t seem to convince her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So she took a different approach.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She was knitting me a sweater and we hadn’t decided on the color. And like a couple of weeks before we got on the phone. I told her that I was saying I wanted a gold sweater, like kind of gold colored yarn. And then when we were talking, when I was tricking her about AI, she brought it up and she’s like, “so have you decided on the color?” and I was like, “yeah, you know, I think it might just go boring, like just do like a black or like a dark blue or something.” And I think of all the things, that made her the most suspicious because like, ‘I was expecting you to go with like a more exciting color. She’s like “That…. I don’t know, that feels like a robot answer.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s so generic, it can’t possibly be you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I know, but maybe I’m a boring guy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She still couldn’t be sure, so she gave him another test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She asked me for some details about, like, things from my childhood that you would be unlikely to know if you weren’t a member of my family. And I think she found that a little bit reassuring.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But overall, the experience left Aunt Eleanor rattled.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think by the end of the call where she realized she couldn’t be totally sure, it was kind of distressing. You know, like, you’re supposed to know your loved ones, how could it be? And we talked for like 20 minutes or so and by the of it she told me like, “I think it’s the real you, I just can’t be sure, I’m not 100% confident.”.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And at the end I told her it is me, I am not tricking you. But there were all these little things that she was trying to pick up on, and I think this is really important for people to understand, throw that out the window. This technology is so good, I promise you, there is nothing that you can do to tell that you’re not looking at an AI, and if you convince yourself that you could figure it out by just like thinking really hard and being careful, you are more likely to get in trouble and get fooled.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is way bigger than Thomas duping his aunt. It’s a real world problem. Every day, deep fake scams and AI generated disinformation lead people astray. Which is why the general public is becoming so distrustful of everything online. When everything could be fake, how do you tell what’s real and what’s not?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kicking this off as always, let’s open a new tab: the Netanyahu deep fake death rumor. In March, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu gave a televised update on the war in Iran. A clip of it was posted on his official X account.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Audio clip of Benjamin Netanyahu addressing Israeli people in Hebrew]\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Citizens of Israel, my brothers and sisters, we are in historic times…\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Something about that video seemed off.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s one moment where he kind of waves his hand in front of the camera and if you freeze frame it at just the right second, it kind of looks like he’s got a sixth finger on his hand.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Screenshots of this moment started making the rounds. And if you’re just scrolling by and you see this freeze frame out of context, it would probably raise a few alarm bells, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It really looks weird. It’s like, it looks like this weird digital glitch and because it’s a video, you know, it’s little grainy it’s pixelated.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this rumor started swirling around online. Was this televised speech really Netanyahu? Or was it a deep fake?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And people latched onto this because for the longest time, AI image and video generators really struggled with hands. Right? They were trained to focus on faces, hands were this thing they picked up along the way and they couldn’t get the hands just right. That was true two or three years ago. Right? The technology has advanced past that point. It’s not true that AI struggles with hands anymore. That isn’t really an issue, but this was enough and it does look weird if you pause at the right frame.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thus, a conspiracy theory was born: Netanyahu was dead, and this was the cover-up. It didn’t help that the Prime Minister’s health had been the subject of public speculation for years. He had emergency heart surgery in 2023, and then a year later, underwent treatment for prostate cancer. And then there’s the war in Iran. The U.S. and Israel killed the Iranian supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>[Audio clip from Global News Youtube post]\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\nIn Tehran, thousands gathered to mourn the death of the supreme leader. Similar protests were held in cities around the world including…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In retaliation, Iran’s Revolutionary Guard has vowed to hunt down and target Netanyahu personally. The seed of doubt over Netanyahu’s health was already planted. Then, the wonky six-fingered video launched the conspiracy theory into the mainstream.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was enough that some large swath of people latched on to this idea that Netanyahu had been killed in a missile strike, and the Israeli government was hiding the truth and making AI videos to convince the world that he was still alive, to what aim, I’m not exactly sure. It turned into, you know, such like a meme, essentially. Like, the conversation got so big that it was enough that Netnyahu posted another video.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cb>[Audio clip from Benjamin Netanyahu’s post on X] \u003c/b>\u003c/em>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voice behind camera: Do you want to show us?\u003cbr>\nNetanyahu: Here. Here.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This video takes place in a coffee shop near Jerusalem. The camera approaches Netanyahu, and the voice behind it says, they’re saying on the internet that you’re actually dead. Netanyah, holding a latte, tells the camera, I’m dying for a coffee. And then he holds up his hand and says, do you want to count the fingers?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He did a terrible job with it for a couple of reasons. If the goal was convincing the public. Number one, I talked to a bunch of people about this and they’re like, the worst thing you can do is come out and deny it because it makes it look like you’ve got something to hide. Right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And there is still something off about the video. It was almost uncanny. He looked super crisp and almost too smooth. It only fueled the conspiracy theories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They shot this on like a nice DSLR, like one of those big cameras, which is how AI videos look. Right? They’re trained on high quality content, high quality videos, so they produce what looks like smoother, polished, high quality video. So it looked a little bit more like AI than it would have if he had just used a phone to record it. So that, I think, just sent people spiraling even more. Nobody was convinced by this, as far as I could tell. The people who had latched on, if anything, it just reaffirmed their belief that the bad guys were trying to trick them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s the thing about conspiracy theories. Once you’re convinced, everything else just seems like confirmation of what you already believe. People took screenshots, zoomed in, tried to find inconsistencies in the backgrounds of the video. Joe Rogan, for one, seemed pretty convinced.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cb>[Audio clip from The Joe Rogan Experience] \u003c/b>\u003c/em>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Look at this. Yeah, like the coffee. Look how turned it is, but it doesn’t spill at all. It just wiggles to the edge.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He talked about it on his podcast, which has over 20 million followers on YouTube. And of course, that just spread the rumor further. I saw claims that if you zoomed in on the date on the register, the pixels didn’t look right. So surely it was fake. Right? Or that the video itself was real, but it wasn’t actually Netanyahu. It was really an actor deep faked to look like Netanyahu and the shadows gave it away. Or, that when he put his hands in his pocket, the fabric of his jacket seemed to smooth over.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the thing about reality is it’s weird. Right? Like, if you look close enough at anything you’ll find weird stuff but especially with digital photography, digital video, it’s the way that the sensors work, like, errors are actually inherent to the way that a digital camera sensor functions. So if you zoom in on any video, if you’re, like, watching a clip from this podcast on social media, zoom in, take a screenshot and zoom in, you will find something weird. That’s just how digital images work, that there’ll be some little grainy thing, there’ll be some glitch. And I think it’s important for people to understand that unless you have serious expertise on this subject, you aren’t qualified to make that kind of call. I am not qualified to make that knd of, I think about this stuff all the time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For his column, Thomas talked to a few of the world’s leading experts on this, including Jeremy Carrasco. He runs a publication called Riddance, which investigates AI-generated media.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he went through, he analyzed it, he determined it was real. I talked to professors, I talked to some people who were like, real world leading experts on digital forensics is what they call it, like figuring out what the origin of a file is. They said there is no doubt. It is impossible that these videos are AI-generated. Like, this thing where it sort of looked like Netanyahu had a sixth finger, even if you watch the clip, instead of looking at a freeze frame, you can kind of see there’s like a shadow on his hand and that’s what it is. It looks weird if you take a screenshot at the right second, but the video itself, it’s very clearly real. This was not enough. And I think that is kind of part of the problem is that we’ve lived through an era where there’s been an assault on expertise, right? That, you know, real conscious, intentional efforts to discredit traditional forms of you know, authority on truth.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thomas also talked to Hany Farid, a professor at UC Berkeley who’s known as the father of digital forensics. He pioneered this field of examining files and figuring out if they’re real.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s one of these guys that’s constantly watching this stuff. And he says, you can see the progression of AI and deep fake technology if you look at some of the recent global conflicts. Like, if we go back to the beginning of the war in Ukraine, it was almost all real footage. Like, every once in a while, you’d see something AI-generated, but for the most part, it was all real. Fast forward to the conflict in Gaza and it was starting to get to the point where there was more AI-generated content. It was a little harder to sort the real from the truth. You get to when the U.S. invaded Venezuela, and it was about 50-50. Right? You’re seeing as much fake stuff as real stuff if you just go out and look at a random video on the subject on the internet. By the time we got to the war in Iran, there’s more fake footage, there’s more fake clips, there is more mis and disinformation than there is real stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A few weeks ago, we dove into the slopaganda coming out of Iran, those AI-generated Lego rap videos dissing the U.S. They’re clearly not real, but they still push specific narratives to the American public. But there’s another kind of AI- generated media at play here: videos that look real but portray events that never happened, like AI-generated footage of Iranian missiles sinking U.S. ships and bombarding civilians in Tel Aviv.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In less than six months, we had this dramatic shift where I think people in power who’ve got like, you know, a game to play, they’ve got something that they want to try and convince the public of, they’ve realized that this technology is something they can put into play. There are whole operations that are ready to get off the ground at a moment’s notice to like, fill the world with fakery and lies. I think that is a real serious problem, I mean, even for journalists, even in the media. Like, it used to be if you saw something that was recorded with a camera, you know, in the not too distant past, it was almost certainly real. Right? Because it took so much effort, especially for video, so much effort to fake something in a convincing way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now I can do it like while I’m washing the dishes. I could reach over and hammer something out of my phone and generate a fake video. For the average person, I think this means that you are constantly inundated with nonsense. You are being exposed to lies on a near constant basis. It’s not just that the image looks real, it’s not just the video looks real. The thing that’s happening is so close to real life. Right? And if you’re a person who watches a lot of short form video and social media, if like scrolling through Instagram Reels or TikTok, the chances that you have seen a piece of AI content and been fooled that it was real, I’d say in the last week, are extremely high.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Actual footage, meanwhile, has been written off as fake and AI. When the U.S. bombed an elementary school in Iran, killing 120 children, some people online questioned whether footage of the aftermath was authentic. It didn’t help that the true photos and videos were mixed in with AI-generated depictions of what happened. It’s one thing for digital forensics experts, like Hany Farid, to sift through all of the slop and determine what’s real. It’s another for these experts to get the public to actually trust them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It leads to an information ecosystem, you know, a landscape of truth where everything is up for debate. Nothing is set in stone and everything is suspect. And that leads to some new ways that power can be abused and people can be taken advantage of.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The conspiracy theories over Netanyahu’s death have not stopped. The follow-up videos and public appearances after the coffee shop debacle only fueled the rumors further. In March, Netanyahu appeared in a video with Mike Huckabee, who is now the ambassador to Israel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cb>[Audio clip from Benjamin Netanyahu’s post on X] \u003c/b>\u003c/em>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mike Huckabee: Mr. Prime Minister, I wanted you to know, the President asked me to come and make sure you were okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Benjamin Netanyahu: Yes, Mike. Yes, I’m alive.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If anything, it only convinced people that Huckabee was also a deepfake. On X and TikTok, people did the same exact thing they did to previous videos, zoomed in, slowed down, cropped screenshots, and looked for any anomaly that could confirm their theories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cem>[Audio clip from a post on the TikTok account of @ragingprestigemaster3.0]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The picture you’re seeing right up here, that’s not his ear, fam.\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that is a truly historical moment. This is, according to everyone that I asked, the first time that the leader of a major world power has like openly gone out in front of the public to try and convince people that he’s not an AI. And I think it’s a sign of a very rocky period that we’re about to enter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does this mean for media literacy, our ability to parse the truth from fiction? Well, it definitely does not bode well for the information ecosystem. It’s really easy to take advantage of public distrust and write off real evidence as fake and AI. We’re going to talk about liars and disinformation in a new tab, after a quick break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, after the break, we’re coming back to bunnies on a trampoline. Stick around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Time to open a new tab: the liar’s dividend.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A while back there was this video of, it looked like night camera footage and it was bunnies jumping on a trampoline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You remember this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I got duped by that. I have a sense of whimsy. \u003cem>[laughter]\u003c/em> I thought it was real.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I fell for it too at first, you know, I saw that and I was like, wow, like maybe the world’s okay after all, like there’s still, you, know, there’s still nice cute things happening. No, turns out it was fake. Millions of people saw this. That doesn’t matter. Right? It’s not going to affect your day or your life that the bunnies aren’t real. But you’re seeing stuff that is a little bit more consequential, that is maybe affecting your beliefs about how the world works or what is happening. And I think this adds up to a lot of people being led astray in ways that are really, really subtle.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because anything online could be fake, people have become suspicious of everything.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that creates a situation where if there’s ever any reason to doubt that something is real, then it immediately falls apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a media phenomenon called “the liar’s dividend.” Legal scholars coined the term back in 2018 in a paper about how deep fakes, truth decay, and cognitive bias affect the information ecosystem. They thought it was bad back then? They could not have predicted today. Anyway, so what exactly is “the liar’s dividend”?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It takes time or resources to verify that something is real. It’s free to cast doubt. It’s free to say that’s fake, right? It takes no effort at all. And once you raise those suspicions, you can take advantage of that. Right? I can say, ‘oh, that’s a fake news, that didn’t happen.’ And that gives people in power the ability to cast doubt on anything that isn’t convenient for whatever their goals happen to be.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, we’ve reached the point where you cannot trust your eyes, like, that ship has sailed, it’s over. You can’t tell whether you’re looking at an AI video or not. You certainly can’t tell whether your looking at a image. They’ve gotten so good that our physiology does not allow you to deal with this problem.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You don’t have to be a major world leader to be affected by this. Before he wrote about this deep, fake situation, Thomas worked on this story about a safety tool that wipes your personal information from Google search results. Like every other tech journalist, he’s really passionate about privacy. So he was chugging coffee, writing this article…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I got myself all worked up and I put in my family group chat, like, “Here’s a link to this setting. Everybody needs to go turn this on right now.” And my mom was like, “Is this really you?” Like, are you, is someone like taking…like that’s…[laughter] and in her defense, it is weird behavior. Right? That’s a strange thing for me to do. You have to use this Google setting right now, that’s something that’s gonna happen to you. Right? You’re gonna be talking to someone, something will be strange. Right? Maybe you’ll be in an emergency. Maybe you will get in a car accident and you call, you know, your wife and be like, I really, I desperately need Amazon gift cards right now. And it’s, it’s real.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If your loved one calls you and urgently tells you that they need those gift cards, it’s probably a scam. But maybe your partner is calling to ask for the password to the family Netflix account. Your best friend lost her passport while on vacation and needs help getting a new one. Or your nephew tells you that he actually wants a blue sweater instead of the gold one you started knitting. These could be real, but how do you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a thing that’s going to happen more and more because we’re living in this world where everything is suspect and if any little doubt comes up, suddenly everything falls apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what is the solution here? Are AI companies or social media platforms doing anything to help differentiate between what’s real and what’s generated? Industry leaders and academics have been pushing for a kind of digital watermark that would be embedded in the file itself, like planting a flag that says AI-generated. And that flag would be planted deep in the pixel data. It would be really difficult to remove. Google Gemini already does this. It’s called Synth ID.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the dream there is we’ll get to a place where like all of the big AI companies or companies that are making these tools will participate in this program and there’ll be some level of checking. On the flip side, there’s efforts to build a similar thing into cameras that when you take an image with a camera, you take a photo or a video, it would embed something in the file that says this was taken by an actual camera. It’s like, this is an image of reality. So far, that technology is not here. Right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We haven’t gotten to the point where that is widespread enough that it can be usable. And hopefully we will arrive at a point where there’s some kind of technical solution or at least technical amelioration to this problem that will like help you sort through it. But we also just need from the social media companies, I think a lot of critics that I speak to say they need to be doing way more to label AI content right now than they are.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On a lot of these platforms, you can upload a piece of footage or an image. They don’t really care whether it’s AI, right? The platforms where we’re getting all of our information could be doing a lot more to let you know that something that you’re looking at is suspicious, but they don’t have a financial incentive to solve that problem. Right? So I think what it really comes down to is we need regulatory approaches to this that will help at least do something to point people in the direction of truth. Not an easy problem to solve, but we haven’t really even tried yet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, well in that case, how do you assure your loved ones that you’re really you? Let’s open our last tab:n how to prove that you are not a deep faith.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this YouTuber, Jim Browning, makes videos about exposing scammers. He recently went super viral with his three-finger test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cb>[Audio from Jim Browning’s Youtube post] \u003c/b>\u003c/em>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jim Browning: Can you like hold up three fingers in front of your face or anything? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Person: Oh, come on, that’s too much.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The reasoning? This would disrupt any face-swapping deep fake program and make it glitch.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Audio from Jim Browning’s Youtube post] \u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jim Browning: Can you do that then? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Person: Uh, I don’t know, it’s too much to ask somebody. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jim Browning: Well, it’ll make sure you’re not AI, is that unreasonable? I mean, can you do that in front of your face? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Person: Well, is that enough? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jim Browning: No, it’s not in front of your face. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The scammer then abruptly ended the call, and in the comments, people were like, this is it. This is the perfect test. This is how to stay safe. But the truth is, this trick has been outdated for years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I could tell you some things that you could look for, some telltale signs for audio and for video, but I’m not going to because if I gave you those tips, it would actually hurt you more than it would help you because in a week or in a month or in six months, they’re going to put out another AI model and those tips that worked last week aren’t going to work now. There is no giveaway that you’re watching an AI video. In fact, maybe the one thing that you can look out for is if you’re a watching a video that’s low quality, that’s grainy, you might be more likely to get fooled because if there is any weird digital artifact, it’ll be harder to see. AI can make high quality video, a low quality grainy pixelated image, that’s not a sign that you are looking at AI. Maybe it’s a sign, if there’s any doubt, that you might want to think twice. But we’ve past that point. Deepfakes are astonishingly good, and they keep getting just a little bit better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luckily, there is one way to protect yourself and your loved ones. And you don’t have to be that tech savvy to do it. It involves gathering up your inner circle. Older relatives, close friends, partners, nibblings, neighbors, basically anyone who could feasibly get this panicked emergency call from someone pretending to be you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You should set up a secret word that you both agree on, that if there’s ever any doubt, you can ask the person for that password and they’ll give it to you and you know you’re talking to the real person. Because I have spoken to people who’ve been scammed, where they get a phone call and it is their husband or their child. I talked to this woman who a scammer set this up and called her and she like swears to this. She’s like, I know it’s fake, but it was my son. It was his voice. It was perfect and they’re really convincing and if you’re going to get scammed what they’re going to do is there’s going to be some emergency you need to deal with right now you’re not going to be in your right mind then it’s like a solution that’s so simple it’s kind of nice in a way that with like such a frighteningly high-tech problem the solution is just speaking words outloud.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This charmingly simple solution is more important than ever, because unfortunately, there’s no going back to the days before AI. But while this code word thing is great for keeping grandma from blowing her life savings on a deepfake scam, it doesn’t help you parse through all of the deepfaked and AI-generated content you come across online. There are still countless ways to get tricked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it will reach the point where for a lot of people, there is no source of truth. Everyone is trying to trick you. And I think there are a lot grifters who will take advantage of that. I think there’s people in power who will see an opportunity and they will seize it. You’ll be able to spin whatever kind of narrative you want because if you’ve got people who trust you, you can say, well, the things that I’m telling you are true and anyone who criticizes me, they’re all part of the lie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My optimistic view is it will get so bad that there will be such a desperate need for trusted institutions that people will step in to fill the void and people will seek out sources of truth that they can rely on and we will rebuild an ecosystem of trust. So I think the advice that would give you is like go find that one person on the internet, someone who’s sincere, who you trust, who you feel has your best interest in mind or maybe in institution. Maybe there’s a publication you like, maybe it’s local news. Try to find sources who you can go to, who you look to when there’s a question, because your eyes and your ears just aren’t gonna cut it anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That being said, when it comes to these personal relationships, sometimes you do need a little trust. Thomas said that he and his aunt Eleanor don’t use a code word every time they talk on the phone.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fortunately, this hasn’t caused any strife between me and my aunt so far. I told her that I wasn’t actually trying to trick her, that it was the real me on the other end of the line, but I hope that this experience was unsettling enough that if there’s ever any reason to doubt, if it’s ever like, hey, I’m in trouble, I need money, or I forgot my password, I hope that she will question it and try and figure out whether it’s really me because at some point someone is going to try and fool all of us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. So when she gets that chaotic text that you actually do want the gold sweater after all, she’ll ask you for your code word.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I do need $600 in Walmart gift cards as soon as possible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So if you do get a call begging for gift cards, it never hurts to double check and ask for the code word. That’s it for this deep dive, but stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor-in-chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Thomas Germain: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, one of the people I interviewed for this story said, “I purchased 25 acres in Vermont so when the world falls apart, I’ll go live on my homestead.” You know, maybe they’ve got the right idea. I don’t know. I don’t have 25 acres in Vermont money myself. So I’m stuck here with the rest of us schlubs, you know, we’re gonna have to deal with the fallout.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Escaping the Surveillance Pricing Trap",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When JetBlue replied to an angry customer on X that they should clear their cookies for a better flight price, it seemed to confirm a long-held consumer belief: companies use your personal data to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">determine what you should pay in real-time based on your urgency, habits and identity\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. It’s what’s known as \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">surveillance pricing. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to economic sociologist Lindsay Owens, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the practice is rampant. She says companies have been investing for years in sophisticated tools meant to squeeze every last dollar out of consumers — and for the most part, it’s legal. Lindsay joins Morgan to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">talk about how we got here, the U.S. laws designed to fight back against surveillance pricing and what you can personally do to sidestep the practice.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8058124943\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://groundworkcollaborative.org/person/lindsay-owens/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lindsay Owens\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, executive director of \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://groundworkcollaborative.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Groundwork Collaborative\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.propublica.org/article/asians-nearly-twice-as-likely-to-get-higher-price-from-princeton-review\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Tiger Mom Tax: Asians Are Nearly Twice as Likely to Get a Higher Price from Princeton Review\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Julia Angwin, Surya Mattu and Jeff Larson, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pro Publica\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2025/10/18/starbucks-loyalty-program-surveillance-pricing/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The hidden way using a rewards card can cost you more\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Geoffrey A. Fowler, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Washington Post\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/sp6b-issue-spotlight.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Issue Spotlight: The Rise of Surveillance Pricing\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — FTC Staff, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Federal Trade Commission\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2026/05/why-surveillance-pricing-bans-are-suddenly-gaining-traction-this-year-and-not-just-in-california/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why surveillance pricing bans are suddenly gaining traction this year (and not just in California)\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Khari Johnson, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CalMatters\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.fastcompany.com/91544120/public-library-hack-book-cheaper-flights-mistrust-airlines\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Influencers are peddling ‘the library hack’ as a way to score cheaper flights. Whether it works is beside the point\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Grace Snelling, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fast Company\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hello, Tabbies. We’ve been workshopping games. What do you think of Tab Hive? Could also go with Tab Closers? Maybe Tabdom, like Tab fandom, but I don’t know, that sounds kind of ominous. Anyway, if you’re a Close All Tabs listener and you like our deep dives, then please rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to this. It would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So online, there’s this kind of urban legend when it comes to booking flights. Basically, as the myth goes, if you’ve been looking up flights between certain destinations and you’re finally ready to book, you should always clear your cookies or book the flight from an incognito tab so you get a better price. For years, this travel hack was based on anecdotal experience, not actual evidence that airlines were using personal data to determine prices. But we do know that our personal data is kind of up for grabs anyway. We talk about this all the time on the show. It’s not wild to believe that corporations are tracking you and price gouging you based on your specific habits. But if you brought it up on travel forums or comment threads, you might get written off as a tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist. And then in April, JetBlue just tweeted it out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is just a really incredible story, one of those ‘truth is stranger than fiction’ moments.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lindsay Owens is an economic sociologist who runs the affordability think tank Groundwork Collaborative. She keeps a pretty close eye on this kind of thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’re feeling it in your wallet, we are studying it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So back in April, a customer took to X, the site formerly known as Twitter…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To kind of complain, vent, gripe about the fact that his flight had increased by more than $200 overnight, and he was just trying to get to a funeral. And he tweeted sort of, JetBlue, what gives here? Why are you doing this? And incredibly, JetBlue’s corporate Twitter account replied.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s the real travel hack. If your flight is delayed or canceled or you’re stuck in customer service hotline hell, complain about it on Twitter. There’s a chance that the airline will see it and give you a discount or at worst a snack voucher. At least that’s how they usually respond. But this time JetBlue took a different approach.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They said ‘try clearing your cash and cookies or booking with an incognito window.’ And then they did say, ‘we’re sorry for your loss. ‘\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In other words, JetBlue’s official corporate social account told the customer that if he didn’t want to be overcharged, he should just trick the company’s booking software into not identifying him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this was a pretty stunning thing to see on Twitter. JetBlue’s HQ immediately weighed in and said the tweet was mistaken, that they don’t use personal information to set prices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A spokesperson for the company told multiple news outlets that the airline fares are determined by supply and demand, not by customer data. JetBlue very quickly deleted the response, but it’s the internet, screenshots live on. This exchange went super viral.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a real confession of sorts, but it was a window into the ways in which pricing is changing right under our feet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">An airline surreptitiously gleaning personal information to maximize how much money they can make off of each individual customer, it’s not out of the realm of possibility. In fact, Lindsay said that just last year, she listened in on a Delta earnings call and the company told investors about this new strategy they were piloting, a partnership with an Israel-based AI company called Fetcherr, which specialized in personalized pricing. Lindsay went on Fetcherr’s website and found a white paper.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Phase two was called ‘the exploitation phase’ —really not hiding the ball with this one. That’s when they’ve learned everything they can about Delta’s competitors, about their customers, and when they start going for broke and they start increasing those prices and getting better revenues for Delta. They were guaranteeing increases in revenue of near 10% in some cases. So we’ve had quite a few of these examples with the airlines now revealing some of their plans, experiments, and things that they’re working on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lindsay wasn’t the only one paying attention. Journalists did too. News of the earnings call spread. This set off a PR firestorm for the company with Delta’s competitors saying that they’d never do this to their valued customers, and Delta announcing that they didn’t actually plan to go through with it. But this practice is becoming the norm across industries. We’ve gotten used to dynamic pricing: price fluctuating based on supply and demand, like, how concert tickets get more expensive as seats fill up. What we’re talking about today goes further. Economists call it personalized pricing. This idea that companies charge you based on their assessment of how much you’re willing to pay for a good or service. It’s a practice more commonly known as surveillance pricing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re doing anything they can to learn about you, including sometimes spying on you, which is why I do think the term surveillance pricing is so apt and accurate. Companies gather a lot of data about us. Some of it we offer up willingly, our browsing history, we accept the cookies, we agree to let them sell our data, and all of that can be used to set a price for you specifically — ideally, if you’re a company, a price that gets pretty close to the maximum that you’d be willing to pay before you might walk away or start looking elsewhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re diving into surveillance pricing. Where it came from, how it works, and what we’re supposed to do to save ourselves from it. And no, clearing cookies isn’t always the answer. Ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s the funny thing. A set price is a fairly new concept compared to the entirety of human history. Let’s talk about it. Kicking this off as always, let’s open a new tab: History of the price tag.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>[Audio from Jessie J singing “Price Tag” live] \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ain’t about the, uh, cha-chang-cha-chung \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ain’t bout the, b-bling-b-bling \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wanna make the world dance\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forget about the beep beep beep boop boop boop\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …price tag. To quote the iconic Jessie J, we need to take it back in time. We don’t even have to go that far back. The price tag dates back to 1861, when Wanamakers opened its stores in Philadelphia. It was one of the first American department stores, and also invented the.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>[Audio from Jessie J singing “Price Tag” live]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Priiiiiiiiiicetaaaaaagggg!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The price tag.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Prior to Wanamaker, you really had thousands of years where we haggled. You went to the market, you picked out what you wanted, and then you started a process of bartering or haggling to set the price. The merchant at the souk or the market maybe sized you up a little and said, oh, you look like someone who could pay more. Maybe he knows a little bit about you, knows you’re wealthy, charges you more. Maybe you know a little bit about him, you have a little dirt on him, he charges you less, right? Those were the kind of rules of the bizarre economy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That started to shift in the U.S. context really with the Quakers and they felt like bartering and haggling was really unfair. They felt a sort of moral conviction about this; you and I are created equal under God, they thought. Why would we be charged different amounts for the same item? So they instituted a fixed price, and everyone would pay the same amount for items at a Quaker market.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John Wanamaker wasn’t a Quaker, but he was a devout Christian, and he had this brilliant idea. What if he took this Quaker concept further? Not just standardized prices, but print them on a little tag attached to each item, and then call it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>[Audio from Jessie J singing “Price Tag” live]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…the priiiiiice taaag!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But of course, Wanamaker wasn’t just doing this for religious reasons, he was also doing it because he was a good businessman and haggling takes a lot of time. The price tag is pretty efficient, right? It makes it pretty easy to tally up what you owe and get on with the purchase. But look, the price tag, I think, did a number of really important things. The first thing it did is it offered transparency. And transparency is really key to fair and honest markets, and that’s really key to a healthy economy. We knew how much something cost. As part of that transparency, we could comparison shop. We could look at how much anything cost in one store, we could look at how much something cost in another store, and we could take the offering that we thought provided the best value. Actually, that mechanism of bargain hunting and comparison shopping is also an important function in a healthy competitive economy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the price tag also offers some stability and predictability. Of course, things like inflation and seasonal availability and wars that shut down access to major waterways can affect prices. But overall, you’d probably have an idea of how much your weekly groceries will cost.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And predictability is bedrock to home economics, to budgeting in the household. If you don’t know how much something is gonna cost from one week to the next, it is hard to know if you’re gonna clear at the end of the week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dynamic pricing has gotten out of hand and Lindsay said this wasn’t always the case.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do think while we have gotten very used to dynamic pricing in a whole host of settings, it is actually the case that in the not too distant past, there were other ways that companies allocated scarce resources. It has really shifted over time and I also think dynamic pricing is increasingly happening in places where resources aren’t scarce at all. You know, you see dynamic pricing in the grocery store, Target isn’t running out of wheat thins. Kroger’s not running out of Barilla pasta, right? This isn’t about managing scarcity. It’s just about charging what they can at any given time. So I think there has been a, kind of, increase in the prevalence of dynamic pricing and the types of goods that are subject to it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When did this use of personal data specifically to set prices become such a common practice?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the way to think about the advent of surveillance pricing is to start with the advent of surveillance advertising, which really takes you to the internet. I mean, that’s when this starts getting really creepy, and it’s when it starts to become big business. You may have heard about a company called DoubleClick. They really pioneered and built the infrastructure for surveillance advertising on the internet. They tracked what you looked at online. And then they built an advertising system to serve it back to you. So if you’ve ever looked at an item, you didn’t buy it, and then the next day it started popping up in your feed over and over and again, and you finally relented and purchased the item, that’s just the latest iteration of surveillance advertising.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DoubleClick was eventually purchased by Google, and Google is advertising king in the early digital era. In some ways, the logical next step for many of these companies was as they get better and better at knowing what you want, predicting what you want, maybe persuading you to want something, they might as well also think about getting better and better, figuring out how much you might be willing to pay for it. And so marrying sort of dynamic pricing with surveillance advertising is how we get to the modern form of surveillance pricing that we’re starting to see today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why does the idea of dynamic pricing and surveillance pricing, why does that upset people so much?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By and large, Americans hate the idea of companies charging different amounts to different people for the same item at the exact same time from the exact same store. I think the answer is really simple. I think when you see sort of a ubiquitous response to something in culture, it’s because you’ve tapped into a core human value. And in this case, I think that value is fairness.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how does surveillance pricing work in practice? That’s a new tab, which we’ll open after a quick break. But first, we wanted to remind you that close all tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. Okay, after the break, big data and your wallet. Stick around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back! So how does surveillance pricing work exactly? Time for a new tab: Big Data and Your Wallet. Let’s talk about some examples of surveillance pricing and how mass data collection determines those prices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this one was uncovered in an analysis by ProPublica, which showed that the prices for online SAT tutoring packages at the Princeton Review, the test prep company, were varying quite substantially depending on where customers lived. So if you went online to book an online test prep package and you typed in your zip code, Some people were offered the course for $6,600. That’s, by the way, a good price, apparently, for a test prep package in 2015. I’m sure it’s more today, it’s a little staggering. But for others, the same package would be almost $2,000 more. And what they determined is that folks in zip codes with a larger percentage of Asian Americans were almost twice as likely to be offered that higher price than others.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They called this the “tiger mom tax.” Yeah, and even in lower income neighborhoods, Asian Americans were quoted the highest prices by the Princeton Review.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it is a good example of how companies were using zip codes and demographic information to try to estimate the likely willingness to pay for a service like test prep. We have seen similarly during that period, a study from the Wall Street Journal in 2012, which showed that the online office retailer Staples was varying prices by zip code. This one was actually a little more nefarious in some respects. If you lived in a zip code where there were other office stores nearby, like an Office Depot, you were getting better pricing. If there was not an OfficeMax or an Office Depot within 20 miles or so, you were charged more because they knew you didn’t really have any ability to go to a competitor or go anywhere else. You were probably gonna go with the Staples offering. So those are some of the early examples of companies starting to toy around with gaging your desperation, gaging your willingness to pay. Gaging how likely your exit options were, how much choice you have in a market, and then using that to put you over a barrel and charge you as much as they possibly can.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, it’s so funny that you say that because my friends and I joke that with Pride right around the corner, Target is probably jacking up prices for plain white tank tops for queer people because they know we’ll probably buy them for all the lesbian events in June. And obviously, that’s purely speculative and it’s mostly us kind of joking among ourselves like, ‘oh, this $5 tank top is going to be $12 next week.’ But it seems like this theory isn’t that far-fetched after all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is not far-fetched at all. That is exactly the kind of thing to expect. When Walmart announced that they were installing electronic shelf labels in every Walmart store throughout the country. The first thing that many consumers thought is they are going to start jacking up the of coke and ice cream and cool items on a hot summer day. When there’s a snowstorm, they are gonna charge more for soup. These are all the things that are possible when you have the ability to do dynamic pricing at scale, either online or in brick and mortar stores, which you can do with electronic shelf labels. Pricing algorithms can be controlled remotely. It is very easy to have them respond to things like the weather and other data inputs. And it starts to present, I think, a real sort of dystopian view of what shopping could look like in the future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what are some of the pieces of personal information that could be used to set the price that you pay, which people probably aren’t thinking about?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is a long list. So you give up a lot of your information in a lot settings. Those terms and conditions when you get on a website that you click on without reading, often what you’ve done is just sort of pulled back the curtain and let the company ransack all of your data. Loyalty programs can be great, but often are sophisticated data harvesting operations. Okay, kinds of things they might know: they might be connected to your bank account and know when it’s payday. They might have information about your location. They might your purchase history, what you buy weekly, what you haven’t bought in a while that you usually buy and so you’re due for. They track your movements online, your mouse movements, what you hover over, how long you hover it, what you click on, what you put in your cart and don’t buy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lindsay pointed to this report from former Washington Post tech columnist, Geoffrey Fowler. He requested his data from Starbucks and got a detailed dossier of everything he ever bought there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was a reporter, so he had purchased a lot of coffee.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>Geoffrey Fowler in Washington Post story]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The more coffee I ordered, the fewer discounts I got. Sure, I was still collecting stars, but the average price I paid per cup of coffee was going up. My loyalty was working against me.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, in this case, they are collecting all the information about your caffeine habits. When you have your morning cup of copy, when you have you afternoon cup of cofee, if you have a sweet tooth and like to have a cookie with your afternoon coffee, right? All of those things they can collect. They can buy information about you from third parties. So, you know, this breadcrumb trail of data you leave when you participate in e-commerce provides a really robust set of data that companies can use to predict how much you’re willing to pay for any given item.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">More and more consumers are using chatbots and AI agents to do the price comparisons for them. You know, kind of taking off the drudge work of like sifting through all these websites. Are AI agents shopping for you, the new haggling?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Shopping and e-commerce and chat bots combined is really scary for folks who worry about privacy and for the potential for surveillance pricing at scale. We may be just in the first inning of our journey through the big bad world of surveillance pricing. A lot of the data that companies collect about you is behavioral and a lot of it is inferences. We think you must like this because you hovered over it for a while. So they’re guessing and using those guesses to decide what to advertise to you and how much to charge you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now with conversational LLMs, often the guesswork can be eliminated because you might just tell them, right? You might say to your chat bot, hey, I have a wedding on Friday. I’m totally screwed. I need a dress. What are some options? Show me some options. Well, you’ve really just given away the store. Right? They know you’re desperate, they know you are in a rush, they know you need it now, and they’re gonna charge you top dollar for it. They’re gonna return results that cost you a lot of money. So the types of data that you offer Chopbots is pretty helpful in commerce. And so then the question is, how will the sort of move from AI into commerce make use of that data? And I think there are real questions about what’s likely to transpire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But we got a very recent hint and it was not great: a couple of researchers, one at Princeton University, one at the University of Washington, tested some LLMs and they put in some different scenarios and tried to measure how the advertising and pricing would work. You know, the results were pretty alarming. All of the current LLM’s, they tested all of them, exhibited risky behaviors, that was the researcher’s word, that favored the company over the user; steering users towards more expensive sponsored products; concealing that the products were sponsored and therefore impacted their recommendations; recommending predatory products like bad loans with high interest rates.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In practice, users were also nudged to spend more. That one we didn’t need a study to confirm, we already have data from Walmart, where the CEO has been quite candid with their investors about the fact that Sparky, the Walmart chat bot, is doing a great job of nudging consumers to spend more. And folks who use Sparky are spending 35% more than folks who don’t, in part because Sparky is bidding up their cart total very effectively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also learned in the study that when asked to recommend between two otherwise equivalent products, The vast majority of the models in the study chose the sponsored option more than half the time, despite it being twice as expensive. I think this is really the next big frontier in surveillance pricing. It’s the next place for people like me who research this stuff and who think through and help craft policy solutions to protect consumers from this stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The good news is people aren’t overwhelmingly shopping in AI right now, although, as I mentioned, companies like Walmart are building this into their apps and into their e-commerce offerings. But it would be great to get this one fixed before the horse is out of the barn because the future doesn’t look great.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yikes, right? I mean, how is any of this even allowed? Is there anything we could do to stop it? Okay, let’s open one last tab: Is surveillance pricing even legal? I’ve googled this question many times, and the answer is never satisfying. Long story short, yes, surveillance pricing is legal. At the federal level, the U.S. is not great about comprehensive data privacy laws. And you may be asking, but what about the FTC? The Federal Trade Commission. They’re supposed to protect consumers and promote business competition. Well, under Lina Khan’s leadership, the FTC conducted a preliminary study on AI-driven pricing tools. It was released in January 2025, right before the Trump administration took over. And since then…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, look, the federal government is not really leading the charge right now. We’re seeing much more action in the states.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To understand what’s going on there, we need to talk about the flip side of surveillance pricing: surveillance wages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Companies learning about you to figure out the maximum you’re willing to pay can use the exact same tools to learn about their workers and figure out the minimum they’re willing to charge in the form of wages. So it’s great news for companies who can deploy both at the same time because they can bring in more revenue from consumers and they can spend less on their workers. The processes and the systems are really similar and we’ve started to see some, oh really I think, concerning examples of this type of algorithmic wage discrimination starting to pop up in a whole host of sectors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are some examples of day nurses being subjected to auctions where they bid against each other for a shift. But instead of an auction where the highest bidder wins, whoever will take the minimum to show up for work would win. We have examples of Uber offering different drivers different fares for the same trip, right? So we are starting to see some examples of algorithmic wage discrimination in parallel to these examples of surveillance pricing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So why might this whole practice of algorithmic wage discrimination actually lead to more legal action against these companies that are using surveillance pricing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To crack down on surveillance pricing, arguably we’re gonna need new laws. We’ve now seen in 40 states and localities just this year in 2026, people cracking down on surveillance pricing, introducing bans in state legislatures to eliminate this practice. Some of those bills also include prohibitions on algorithmic wage discrimination.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just last month, Colorado actually passed a bill that would do both. It bans corporations from using personal data to set individual prices and wages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there are some cases in which algorithmic wage discrimination will already be illegal. So we have fair labor laws and we have employment discrimination laws and it is illegal to pay men and women different amounts for the same job. And so where algorithmic discrimination falls afoul of existing employment discrimination and labor laws, there may be opportunities for enforcement agencies to go ahead and crack down on those practices even without updating the law.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you think that this kind of legislation will be effective in combating surveillance pricing? How does it compare to other policy pushes that you’ve seen?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So far, we have seen a couple of different types of laws. We’ve seen disclosure laws, which would require companies to tell you they’re spying on you in order to overcharge you, which New York put into effect this year. If you are the victim of surveillance pricing in New York, you will know it, because you will see a disclosure that says this price was set by an algorithm using your data. So disclosure laws are interesting. They’re interesting to people like me, because it gives me a nice population of companies to study. They’re interesting to consumers because sometimes you can say, okay, I’d rather not purchase from this company anymore. But, you know, I would prefer that companies not be able to do this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the beginning of the year, California Attorney General Rob Bonta opened a sweeping investigation into surveillance pricing. California lawmakers have also proposed an outright ban on the practice. A similar bill failed to reach the governor’s desk last year, but this one just cleared a major milestone in the state legislature this month. If it does pass, Lindsay said it could be a really strong law.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it would be a game changer for a state as large as California with as many tech companies located in California as there are to pass a bill like this and it would great to see that happen as soon as possible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It seems like we’re finally at a kind of inflection point for surveillance pricing with consumers, especially after the JetBlue tweet, kind of waking up to it and starting to push back. How are retailers responding to the policy pushbacks and also the consumer outrage?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Retailers have to make some tough choices about the costs and benefits of deploying technologies like this. The benefits are clear. You can make a lot of money charging your consumer the absolute maximum they are willing to pay for every item in their cart. There is revenue to be won. But the risk is that when consumers find out about this, they are really, really ticked and you risk boycott and losing some market share. And throughout history, we have seen companies touch the stove when they, you know, went too far.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the 90s, the CEO of Coke let slip that they were piloting, installing thermometers in Coke vending machines so that they could charge you more for Coke on a hot summer day. That was in 1999, it was before TikTok, but it was viral. It was on the front page of every major newspaper in the country. The Honolulu paper, the Philadelphia paper, the Wall Street Journal, hardly a bastion of consumer sentiment, weighed in on how outrageous that proposal was. Pepsi, of course, seized on the gaff. Coke immediately backtracked, said they wouldn’t be piloting it. They would never do it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I think the best way, absent the law, to keep companies from pursuing some of the most egregious forms of this practice, the spying on you, the overcharging you, is actually consumer pressure. There are, of course, retailers who use slightly different business models who say, you know, I’m not in the business of charging consumers the maximum they will pay. The canonical example is Costco, who uses a cost plus model. They charge between 14 and 15 percent on top of the wholesale price. It’s cost plus 14 or 15 percent, that’s the margin. They could go higher, they don’t, they pass the savings along. But, you know, generally speaking, companies are moving in the direction of getting more sophisticated with pricing and of taking their pricing to a place that’s much higher tech.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m sure you are asked this question constantly, but what could the average consumer do to limit surveillance pricing in their lives?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really do not believe it should be every consumer’s job to bob and weave and try to beat the machine. Shopping against the robot is not a future anybody wants to have, and it should be lawmakers’ job and policymakers’ job to make sure markets are fair and honest because that’s good for everyone. It’s good for our economy, it’s good for society. The second thing I’ll say is I do really believe in the power of consumer boycotts. And I think when you see something, say something. Take to Reddit, take to TikTok, take to Twitter like our friend experiencing the JetBlue price hike did. Those are great ways to sound the alarm and sometimes to get companies’ attention. Consumer boycotts can be effective.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But finally, there are a few things to think about as a modern consumer. It’s probably time to update how you think about comparison shopping. So it used to be that you would look at the same item at two different stores, see which store offered you the better price, go with that one. Now you probably need to comparison shop within stores. Look at the price in the app, look at the place on the website, look at price in the brick and mortar store, compare those three, go with the lower price. You could do some comparison shopping with your spouse, sit on the couch, both of you log in, see if one of you gets a better price. Go with that price. So I think there are some ways to sort of update how you think about comparison shopping. And then of course, all of the standard advice around browsers that offer more robust privacy protections, all of that can be useful as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close the loop on the JetBlue saga. They now face a class action. Everyone’s still really mad at them. It’s been weeks and they’re still getting like, comments being like, remember when you said this? Like, we’re not letting that go. How do you think the saga will end for JetBlue?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, hard for me to know what the result of that class action lawsuit will be. And of course, those can take a long time to unwind. So it may be a minute before we get to read the final chapter of that book. But, you know, I do think JetBlue will face some pretty substantial damage in the interim. I think they have lost faith with a lot of consumers when consumers may look elsewhere for their travel. That being said, we’ve got a problem in the airlines, which is they’re not very competitive. We don’t have that many carriers and we actually just lost one of the main competitors to JetBlue— Spirit. So they have a lot of pricing power right now. They have a of dominance as a low cost carrier, but they certainly, I think, have lost the faith of a lot consumers and they may have lost a lot their customers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Never underestimate the power of a rage tweet. That’s it for today’s deep dive, but stick around after the credits for a surveillance pricing fun fact. Actually, it’s less fun and more terrifying, but hey, it’s good trivia. Okay, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, Production help from Francesca Fenzi. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor-in-chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was a really interesting study in 2023 that got quite a bit of attention. And it looked at how Uber was charging customers more if their phone battery was sunk. Like, you got to get in that Uber before your phone dies. As someone who is always on low battery mode.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would never remember to charge my phone.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Me neither. It’s like really scary to think about that one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Correction: A previous version of this story misidentified the organization Lindsay Owens runs. It is Groundwork Collaborative, not Groundwork Collection. The story has been updated.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "When JetBlue replied to an angry customer on X that they should clear their cookies for a better flight price, it seemed to confirm a long-held consumer belief: companies use your personal data to determine what you should pay in real-time based on your urgency, habits and identity. It’s what’s known as surveillance pricing. According to economic sociologist Lindsay Owens, the practice is rampant. She says companies have been investing for years in sophisticated tools meant to squeeze every last dollar out of consumers — and for the most part, it’s legal. Lindsay joins Morgan to talk about how we got here, the U.S. laws designed to fight back against surveillance pricing and what you can personally do to sidestep the practice.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When JetBlue replied to an angry customer on X that they should clear their cookies for a better flight price, it seemed to confirm a long-held consumer belief: companies use your personal data to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">determine what you should pay in real-time based on your urgency, habits and identity\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. It’s what’s known as \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">surveillance pricing. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to economic sociologist Lindsay Owens, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the practice is rampant. She says companies have been investing for years in sophisticated tools meant to squeeze every last dollar out of consumers — and for the most part, it’s legal. Lindsay joins Morgan to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">talk about how we got here, the U.S. laws designed to fight back against surveillance pricing and what you can personally do to sidestep the practice.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8058124943\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://groundworkcollaborative.org/person/lindsay-owens/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lindsay Owens\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, executive director of \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://groundworkcollaborative.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Groundwork Collaborative\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.propublica.org/article/asians-nearly-twice-as-likely-to-get-higher-price-from-princeton-review\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Tiger Mom Tax: Asians Are Nearly Twice as Likely to Get a Higher Price from Princeton Review\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Julia Angwin, Surya Mattu and Jeff Larson, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pro Publica\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2025/10/18/starbucks-loyalty-program-surveillance-pricing/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The hidden way using a rewards card can cost you more\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Geoffrey A. Fowler, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Washington Post\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/sp6b-issue-spotlight.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Issue Spotlight: The Rise of Surveillance Pricing\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — FTC Staff, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Federal Trade Commission\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2026/05/why-surveillance-pricing-bans-are-suddenly-gaining-traction-this-year-and-not-just-in-california/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why surveillance pricing bans are suddenly gaining traction this year (and not just in California)\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Khari Johnson, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CalMatters\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.fastcompany.com/91544120/public-library-hack-book-cheaper-flights-mistrust-airlines\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Influencers are peddling ‘the library hack’ as a way to score cheaper flights. Whether it works is beside the point\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Grace Snelling, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fast Company\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hello, Tabbies. We’ve been workshopping games. What do you think of Tab Hive? Could also go with Tab Closers? Maybe Tabdom, like Tab fandom, but I don’t know, that sounds kind of ominous. Anyway, if you’re a Close All Tabs listener and you like our deep dives, then please rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to this. It would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So online, there’s this kind of urban legend when it comes to booking flights. Basically, as the myth goes, if you’ve been looking up flights between certain destinations and you’re finally ready to book, you should always clear your cookies or book the flight from an incognito tab so you get a better price. For years, this travel hack was based on anecdotal experience, not actual evidence that airlines were using personal data to determine prices. But we do know that our personal data is kind of up for grabs anyway. We talk about this all the time on the show. It’s not wild to believe that corporations are tracking you and price gouging you based on your specific habits. But if you brought it up on travel forums or comment threads, you might get written off as a tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist. And then in April, JetBlue just tweeted it out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is just a really incredible story, one of those ‘truth is stranger than fiction’ moments.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lindsay Owens is an economic sociologist who runs the affordability think tank Groundwork Collaborative. She keeps a pretty close eye on this kind of thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’re feeling it in your wallet, we are studying it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So back in April, a customer took to X, the site formerly known as Twitter…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To kind of complain, vent, gripe about the fact that his flight had increased by more than $200 overnight, and he was just trying to get to a funeral. And he tweeted sort of, JetBlue, what gives here? Why are you doing this? And incredibly, JetBlue’s corporate Twitter account replied.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s the real travel hack. If your flight is delayed or canceled or you’re stuck in customer service hotline hell, complain about it on Twitter. There’s a chance that the airline will see it and give you a discount or at worst a snack voucher. At least that’s how they usually respond. But this time JetBlue took a different approach.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They said ‘try clearing your cash and cookies or booking with an incognito window.’ And then they did say, ‘we’re sorry for your loss. ‘\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In other words, JetBlue’s official corporate social account told the customer that if he didn’t want to be overcharged, he should just trick the company’s booking software into not identifying him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this was a pretty stunning thing to see on Twitter. JetBlue’s HQ immediately weighed in and said the tweet was mistaken, that they don’t use personal information to set prices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A spokesperson for the company told multiple news outlets that the airline fares are determined by supply and demand, not by customer data. JetBlue very quickly deleted the response, but it’s the internet, screenshots live on. This exchange went super viral.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a real confession of sorts, but it was a window into the ways in which pricing is changing right under our feet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">An airline surreptitiously gleaning personal information to maximize how much money they can make off of each individual customer, it’s not out of the realm of possibility. In fact, Lindsay said that just last year, she listened in on a Delta earnings call and the company told investors about this new strategy they were piloting, a partnership with an Israel-based AI company called Fetcherr, which specialized in personalized pricing. Lindsay went on Fetcherr’s website and found a white paper.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Phase two was called ‘the exploitation phase’ —really not hiding the ball with this one. That’s when they’ve learned everything they can about Delta’s competitors, about their customers, and when they start going for broke and they start increasing those prices and getting better revenues for Delta. They were guaranteeing increases in revenue of near 10% in some cases. So we’ve had quite a few of these examples with the airlines now revealing some of their plans, experiments, and things that they’re working on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lindsay wasn’t the only one paying attention. Journalists did too. News of the earnings call spread. This set off a PR firestorm for the company with Delta’s competitors saying that they’d never do this to their valued customers, and Delta announcing that they didn’t actually plan to go through with it. But this practice is becoming the norm across industries. We’ve gotten used to dynamic pricing: price fluctuating based on supply and demand, like, how concert tickets get more expensive as seats fill up. What we’re talking about today goes further. Economists call it personalized pricing. This idea that companies charge you based on their assessment of how much you’re willing to pay for a good or service. It’s a practice more commonly known as surveillance pricing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re doing anything they can to learn about you, including sometimes spying on you, which is why I do think the term surveillance pricing is so apt and accurate. Companies gather a lot of data about us. Some of it we offer up willingly, our browsing history, we accept the cookies, we agree to let them sell our data, and all of that can be used to set a price for you specifically — ideally, if you’re a company, a price that gets pretty close to the maximum that you’d be willing to pay before you might walk away or start looking elsewhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re diving into surveillance pricing. Where it came from, how it works, and what we’re supposed to do to save ourselves from it. And no, clearing cookies isn’t always the answer. Ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s the funny thing. A set price is a fairly new concept compared to the entirety of human history. Let’s talk about it. Kicking this off as always, let’s open a new tab: History of the price tag.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>[Audio from Jessie J singing “Price Tag” live] \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ain’t about the, uh, cha-chang-cha-chung \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ain’t bout the, b-bling-b-bling \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wanna make the world dance\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forget about the beep beep beep boop boop boop\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …price tag. To quote the iconic Jessie J, we need to take it back in time. We don’t even have to go that far back. The price tag dates back to 1861, when Wanamakers opened its stores in Philadelphia. It was one of the first American department stores, and also invented the.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>[Audio from Jessie J singing “Price Tag” live]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Priiiiiiiiiicetaaaaaagggg!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The price tag.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Prior to Wanamaker, you really had thousands of years where we haggled. You went to the market, you picked out what you wanted, and then you started a process of bartering or haggling to set the price. The merchant at the souk or the market maybe sized you up a little and said, oh, you look like someone who could pay more. Maybe he knows a little bit about you, knows you’re wealthy, charges you more. Maybe you know a little bit about him, you have a little dirt on him, he charges you less, right? Those were the kind of rules of the bizarre economy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That started to shift in the U.S. context really with the Quakers and they felt like bartering and haggling was really unfair. They felt a sort of moral conviction about this; you and I are created equal under God, they thought. Why would we be charged different amounts for the same item? So they instituted a fixed price, and everyone would pay the same amount for items at a Quaker market.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John Wanamaker wasn’t a Quaker, but he was a devout Christian, and he had this brilliant idea. What if he took this Quaker concept further? Not just standardized prices, but print them on a little tag attached to each item, and then call it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>[Audio from Jessie J singing “Price Tag” live]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…the priiiiiice taaag!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But of course, Wanamaker wasn’t just doing this for religious reasons, he was also doing it because he was a good businessman and haggling takes a lot of time. The price tag is pretty efficient, right? It makes it pretty easy to tally up what you owe and get on with the purchase. But look, the price tag, I think, did a number of really important things. The first thing it did is it offered transparency. And transparency is really key to fair and honest markets, and that’s really key to a healthy economy. We knew how much something cost. As part of that transparency, we could comparison shop. We could look at how much anything cost in one store, we could look at how much something cost in another store, and we could take the offering that we thought provided the best value. Actually, that mechanism of bargain hunting and comparison shopping is also an important function in a healthy competitive economy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the price tag also offers some stability and predictability. Of course, things like inflation and seasonal availability and wars that shut down access to major waterways can affect prices. But overall, you’d probably have an idea of how much your weekly groceries will cost.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And predictability is bedrock to home economics, to budgeting in the household. If you don’t know how much something is gonna cost from one week to the next, it is hard to know if you’re gonna clear at the end of the week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dynamic pricing has gotten out of hand and Lindsay said this wasn’t always the case.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do think while we have gotten very used to dynamic pricing in a whole host of settings, it is actually the case that in the not too distant past, there were other ways that companies allocated scarce resources. It has really shifted over time and I also think dynamic pricing is increasingly happening in places where resources aren’t scarce at all. You know, you see dynamic pricing in the grocery store, Target isn’t running out of wheat thins. Kroger’s not running out of Barilla pasta, right? This isn’t about managing scarcity. It’s just about charging what they can at any given time. So I think there has been a, kind of, increase in the prevalence of dynamic pricing and the types of goods that are subject to it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When did this use of personal data specifically to set prices become such a common practice?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the way to think about the advent of surveillance pricing is to start with the advent of surveillance advertising, which really takes you to the internet. I mean, that’s when this starts getting really creepy, and it’s when it starts to become big business. You may have heard about a company called DoubleClick. They really pioneered and built the infrastructure for surveillance advertising on the internet. They tracked what you looked at online. And then they built an advertising system to serve it back to you. So if you’ve ever looked at an item, you didn’t buy it, and then the next day it started popping up in your feed over and over and again, and you finally relented and purchased the item, that’s just the latest iteration of surveillance advertising.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DoubleClick was eventually purchased by Google, and Google is advertising king in the early digital era. In some ways, the logical next step for many of these companies was as they get better and better at knowing what you want, predicting what you want, maybe persuading you to want something, they might as well also think about getting better and better, figuring out how much you might be willing to pay for it. And so marrying sort of dynamic pricing with surveillance advertising is how we get to the modern form of surveillance pricing that we’re starting to see today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why does the idea of dynamic pricing and surveillance pricing, why does that upset people so much?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By and large, Americans hate the idea of companies charging different amounts to different people for the same item at the exact same time from the exact same store. I think the answer is really simple. I think when you see sort of a ubiquitous response to something in culture, it’s because you’ve tapped into a core human value. And in this case, I think that value is fairness.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how does surveillance pricing work in practice? That’s a new tab, which we’ll open after a quick break. But first, we wanted to remind you that close all tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. Okay, after the break, big data and your wallet. Stick around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back! So how does surveillance pricing work exactly? Time for a new tab: Big Data and Your Wallet. Let’s talk about some examples of surveillance pricing and how mass data collection determines those prices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this one was uncovered in an analysis by ProPublica, which showed that the prices for online SAT tutoring packages at the Princeton Review, the test prep company, were varying quite substantially depending on where customers lived. So if you went online to book an online test prep package and you typed in your zip code, Some people were offered the course for $6,600. That’s, by the way, a good price, apparently, for a test prep package in 2015. I’m sure it’s more today, it’s a little staggering. But for others, the same package would be almost $2,000 more. And what they determined is that folks in zip codes with a larger percentage of Asian Americans were almost twice as likely to be offered that higher price than others.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They called this the “tiger mom tax.” Yeah, and even in lower income neighborhoods, Asian Americans were quoted the highest prices by the Princeton Review.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it is a good example of how companies were using zip codes and demographic information to try to estimate the likely willingness to pay for a service like test prep. We have seen similarly during that period, a study from the Wall Street Journal in 2012, which showed that the online office retailer Staples was varying prices by zip code. This one was actually a little more nefarious in some respects. If you lived in a zip code where there were other office stores nearby, like an Office Depot, you were getting better pricing. If there was not an OfficeMax or an Office Depot within 20 miles or so, you were charged more because they knew you didn’t really have any ability to go to a competitor or go anywhere else. You were probably gonna go with the Staples offering. So those are some of the early examples of companies starting to toy around with gaging your desperation, gaging your willingness to pay. Gaging how likely your exit options were, how much choice you have in a market, and then using that to put you over a barrel and charge you as much as they possibly can.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, it’s so funny that you say that because my friends and I joke that with Pride right around the corner, Target is probably jacking up prices for plain white tank tops for queer people because they know we’ll probably buy them for all the lesbian events in June. And obviously, that’s purely speculative and it’s mostly us kind of joking among ourselves like, ‘oh, this $5 tank top is going to be $12 next week.’ But it seems like this theory isn’t that far-fetched after all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is not far-fetched at all. That is exactly the kind of thing to expect. When Walmart announced that they were installing electronic shelf labels in every Walmart store throughout the country. The first thing that many consumers thought is they are going to start jacking up the of coke and ice cream and cool items on a hot summer day. When there’s a snowstorm, they are gonna charge more for soup. These are all the things that are possible when you have the ability to do dynamic pricing at scale, either online or in brick and mortar stores, which you can do with electronic shelf labels. Pricing algorithms can be controlled remotely. It is very easy to have them respond to things like the weather and other data inputs. And it starts to present, I think, a real sort of dystopian view of what shopping could look like in the future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what are some of the pieces of personal information that could be used to set the price that you pay, which people probably aren’t thinking about?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is a long list. So you give up a lot of your information in a lot settings. Those terms and conditions when you get on a website that you click on without reading, often what you’ve done is just sort of pulled back the curtain and let the company ransack all of your data. Loyalty programs can be great, but often are sophisticated data harvesting operations. Okay, kinds of things they might know: they might be connected to your bank account and know when it’s payday. They might have information about your location. They might your purchase history, what you buy weekly, what you haven’t bought in a while that you usually buy and so you’re due for. They track your movements online, your mouse movements, what you hover over, how long you hover it, what you click on, what you put in your cart and don’t buy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lindsay pointed to this report from former Washington Post tech columnist, Geoffrey Fowler. He requested his data from Starbucks and got a detailed dossier of everything he ever bought there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was a reporter, so he had purchased a lot of coffee.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>Geoffrey Fowler in Washington Post story]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The more coffee I ordered, the fewer discounts I got. Sure, I was still collecting stars, but the average price I paid per cup of coffee was going up. My loyalty was working against me.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, in this case, they are collecting all the information about your caffeine habits. When you have your morning cup of copy, when you have you afternoon cup of cofee, if you have a sweet tooth and like to have a cookie with your afternoon coffee, right? All of those things they can collect. They can buy information about you from third parties. So, you know, this breadcrumb trail of data you leave when you participate in e-commerce provides a really robust set of data that companies can use to predict how much you’re willing to pay for any given item.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">More and more consumers are using chatbots and AI agents to do the price comparisons for them. You know, kind of taking off the drudge work of like sifting through all these websites. Are AI agents shopping for you, the new haggling?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Shopping and e-commerce and chat bots combined is really scary for folks who worry about privacy and for the potential for surveillance pricing at scale. We may be just in the first inning of our journey through the big bad world of surveillance pricing. A lot of the data that companies collect about you is behavioral and a lot of it is inferences. We think you must like this because you hovered over it for a while. So they’re guessing and using those guesses to decide what to advertise to you and how much to charge you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now with conversational LLMs, often the guesswork can be eliminated because you might just tell them, right? You might say to your chat bot, hey, I have a wedding on Friday. I’m totally screwed. I need a dress. What are some options? Show me some options. Well, you’ve really just given away the store. Right? They know you’re desperate, they know you are in a rush, they know you need it now, and they’re gonna charge you top dollar for it. They’re gonna return results that cost you a lot of money. So the types of data that you offer Chopbots is pretty helpful in commerce. And so then the question is, how will the sort of move from AI into commerce make use of that data? And I think there are real questions about what’s likely to transpire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But we got a very recent hint and it was not great: a couple of researchers, one at Princeton University, one at the University of Washington, tested some LLMs and they put in some different scenarios and tried to measure how the advertising and pricing would work. You know, the results were pretty alarming. All of the current LLM’s, they tested all of them, exhibited risky behaviors, that was the researcher’s word, that favored the company over the user; steering users towards more expensive sponsored products; concealing that the products were sponsored and therefore impacted their recommendations; recommending predatory products like bad loans with high interest rates.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In practice, users were also nudged to spend more. That one we didn’t need a study to confirm, we already have data from Walmart, where the CEO has been quite candid with their investors about the fact that Sparky, the Walmart chat bot, is doing a great job of nudging consumers to spend more. And folks who use Sparky are spending 35% more than folks who don’t, in part because Sparky is bidding up their cart total very effectively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also learned in the study that when asked to recommend between two otherwise equivalent products, The vast majority of the models in the study chose the sponsored option more than half the time, despite it being twice as expensive. I think this is really the next big frontier in surveillance pricing. It’s the next place for people like me who research this stuff and who think through and help craft policy solutions to protect consumers from this stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The good news is people aren’t overwhelmingly shopping in AI right now, although, as I mentioned, companies like Walmart are building this into their apps and into their e-commerce offerings. But it would be great to get this one fixed before the horse is out of the barn because the future doesn’t look great.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yikes, right? I mean, how is any of this even allowed? Is there anything we could do to stop it? Okay, let’s open one last tab: Is surveillance pricing even legal? I’ve googled this question many times, and the answer is never satisfying. Long story short, yes, surveillance pricing is legal. At the federal level, the U.S. is not great about comprehensive data privacy laws. And you may be asking, but what about the FTC? The Federal Trade Commission. They’re supposed to protect consumers and promote business competition. Well, under Lina Khan’s leadership, the FTC conducted a preliminary study on AI-driven pricing tools. It was released in January 2025, right before the Trump administration took over. And since then…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, look, the federal government is not really leading the charge right now. We’re seeing much more action in the states.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To understand what’s going on there, we need to talk about the flip side of surveillance pricing: surveillance wages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Companies learning about you to figure out the maximum you’re willing to pay can use the exact same tools to learn about their workers and figure out the minimum they’re willing to charge in the form of wages. So it’s great news for companies who can deploy both at the same time because they can bring in more revenue from consumers and they can spend less on their workers. The processes and the systems are really similar and we’ve started to see some, oh really I think, concerning examples of this type of algorithmic wage discrimination starting to pop up in a whole host of sectors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are some examples of day nurses being subjected to auctions where they bid against each other for a shift. But instead of an auction where the highest bidder wins, whoever will take the minimum to show up for work would win. We have examples of Uber offering different drivers different fares for the same trip, right? So we are starting to see some examples of algorithmic wage discrimination in parallel to these examples of surveillance pricing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So why might this whole practice of algorithmic wage discrimination actually lead to more legal action against these companies that are using surveillance pricing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To crack down on surveillance pricing, arguably we’re gonna need new laws. We’ve now seen in 40 states and localities just this year in 2026, people cracking down on surveillance pricing, introducing bans in state legislatures to eliminate this practice. Some of those bills also include prohibitions on algorithmic wage discrimination.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just last month, Colorado actually passed a bill that would do both. It bans corporations from using personal data to set individual prices and wages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there are some cases in which algorithmic wage discrimination will already be illegal. So we have fair labor laws and we have employment discrimination laws and it is illegal to pay men and women different amounts for the same job. And so where algorithmic discrimination falls afoul of existing employment discrimination and labor laws, there may be opportunities for enforcement agencies to go ahead and crack down on those practices even without updating the law.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you think that this kind of legislation will be effective in combating surveillance pricing? How does it compare to other policy pushes that you’ve seen?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So far, we have seen a couple of different types of laws. We’ve seen disclosure laws, which would require companies to tell you they’re spying on you in order to overcharge you, which New York put into effect this year. If you are the victim of surveillance pricing in New York, you will know it, because you will see a disclosure that says this price was set by an algorithm using your data. So disclosure laws are interesting. They’re interesting to people like me, because it gives me a nice population of companies to study. They’re interesting to consumers because sometimes you can say, okay, I’d rather not purchase from this company anymore. But, you know, I would prefer that companies not be able to do this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the beginning of the year, California Attorney General Rob Bonta opened a sweeping investigation into surveillance pricing. California lawmakers have also proposed an outright ban on the practice. A similar bill failed to reach the governor’s desk last year, but this one just cleared a major milestone in the state legislature this month. If it does pass, Lindsay said it could be a really strong law.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it would be a game changer for a state as large as California with as many tech companies located in California as there are to pass a bill like this and it would great to see that happen as soon as possible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It seems like we’re finally at a kind of inflection point for surveillance pricing with consumers, especially after the JetBlue tweet, kind of waking up to it and starting to push back. How are retailers responding to the policy pushbacks and also the consumer outrage?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Retailers have to make some tough choices about the costs and benefits of deploying technologies like this. The benefits are clear. You can make a lot of money charging your consumer the absolute maximum they are willing to pay for every item in their cart. There is revenue to be won. But the risk is that when consumers find out about this, they are really, really ticked and you risk boycott and losing some market share. And throughout history, we have seen companies touch the stove when they, you know, went too far.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the 90s, the CEO of Coke let slip that they were piloting, installing thermometers in Coke vending machines so that they could charge you more for Coke on a hot summer day. That was in 1999, it was before TikTok, but it was viral. It was on the front page of every major newspaper in the country. The Honolulu paper, the Philadelphia paper, the Wall Street Journal, hardly a bastion of consumer sentiment, weighed in on how outrageous that proposal was. Pepsi, of course, seized on the gaff. Coke immediately backtracked, said they wouldn’t be piloting it. They would never do it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I think the best way, absent the law, to keep companies from pursuing some of the most egregious forms of this practice, the spying on you, the overcharging you, is actually consumer pressure. There are, of course, retailers who use slightly different business models who say, you know, I’m not in the business of charging consumers the maximum they will pay. The canonical example is Costco, who uses a cost plus model. They charge between 14 and 15 percent on top of the wholesale price. It’s cost plus 14 or 15 percent, that’s the margin. They could go higher, they don’t, they pass the savings along. But, you know, generally speaking, companies are moving in the direction of getting more sophisticated with pricing and of taking their pricing to a place that’s much higher tech.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m sure you are asked this question constantly, but what could the average consumer do to limit surveillance pricing in their lives?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really do not believe it should be every consumer’s job to bob and weave and try to beat the machine. Shopping against the robot is not a future anybody wants to have, and it should be lawmakers’ job and policymakers’ job to make sure markets are fair and honest because that’s good for everyone. It’s good for our economy, it’s good for society. The second thing I’ll say is I do really believe in the power of consumer boycotts. And I think when you see something, say something. Take to Reddit, take to TikTok, take to Twitter like our friend experiencing the JetBlue price hike did. Those are great ways to sound the alarm and sometimes to get companies’ attention. Consumer boycotts can be effective.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But finally, there are a few things to think about as a modern consumer. It’s probably time to update how you think about comparison shopping. So it used to be that you would look at the same item at two different stores, see which store offered you the better price, go with that one. Now you probably need to comparison shop within stores. Look at the price in the app, look at the place on the website, look at price in the brick and mortar store, compare those three, go with the lower price. You could do some comparison shopping with your spouse, sit on the couch, both of you log in, see if one of you gets a better price. Go with that price. So I think there are some ways to sort of update how you think about comparison shopping. And then of course, all of the standard advice around browsers that offer more robust privacy protections, all of that can be useful as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close the loop on the JetBlue saga. They now face a class action. Everyone’s still really mad at them. It’s been weeks and they’re still getting like, comments being like, remember when you said this? Like, we’re not letting that go. How do you think the saga will end for JetBlue?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, hard for me to know what the result of that class action lawsuit will be. And of course, those can take a long time to unwind. So it may be a minute before we get to read the final chapter of that book. But, you know, I do think JetBlue will face some pretty substantial damage in the interim. I think they have lost faith with a lot of consumers when consumers may look elsewhere for their travel. That being said, we’ve got a problem in the airlines, which is they’re not very competitive. We don’t have that many carriers and we actually just lost one of the main competitors to JetBlue— Spirit. So they have a lot of pricing power right now. They have a of dominance as a low cost carrier, but they certainly, I think, have lost the faith of a lot consumers and they may have lost a lot their customers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Never underestimate the power of a rage tweet. That’s it for today’s deep dive, but stick around after the credits for a surveillance pricing fun fact. Actually, it’s less fun and more terrifying, but hey, it’s good trivia. Okay, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, Production help from Francesca Fenzi. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor-in-chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was a really interesting study in 2023 that got quite a bit of attention. And it looked at how Uber was charging customers more if their phone battery was sunk. Like, you got to get in that Uber before your phone dies. As someone who is always on low battery mode.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would never remember to charge my phone.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lindsay Owens: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Me neither. It’s like really scary to think about that one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Correction: A previous version of this story misidentified the organization Lindsay Owens runs. It is Groundwork Collaborative, not Groundwork Collection. The story has been updated.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Musk v. Altman Was Peak Silicon Valley Theatrics",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For three weeks, all eyes were on a salacious courtroom drama unfolding in Oakland, California. The Musk v. Altman trial had everything you’d expect from a favorite soap opera: Backstabbing? Check! Secret diary entries? Check! Pleading text messages? Check! And two billionaire buddies turned rivals duking it out over who did or did not steal a charity. Morgan and KQED’s Rachael Myrow explore the trial highlights, outcome and the big question: what was it all for?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1712425236\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/rachael-myrow\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachael Myrow\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, senior editor, Silicon Valley News Desk at KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084062/federal-court-rules-against-elon-musk-in-his-bitter-feud-with-sam-altman\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Federal Court Rules Against Elon Musk in His Bitter Feud With Sam Altman\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Katie DeBenedetti and Rachael Myrow, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/fancy-butt-pillows-musk-v-altman-trial/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everyone at the Musk v. Altman Trial Is Using Fancy Butt Cushions\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Paresh Dave, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WIRED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/ai-artificial-intelligence/932464/musk-v-altman-proved-that-ai-is-led-by-the-wrong-people\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Musk v. Altman proved that AI is led by the wrong people\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Hayden Field, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2026/04/13/sam-altman-may-control-our-future-can-he-be-trusted\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sam Altman May Control Our Future—Can He Be Trusted?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ronan Farrow and Andrew Marantz, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New Yorker\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/05/20/nx-s1-5822419/ai-colleges-commencement-booing\">Advice for 2026 commencement speakers: Don’t bring up AI\u003c/a> — Jude Joffe-Block and Michelle Aslam, \u003ci>NPR\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello Tabbers! Tabbies? Tabhive? We’re workshopping this. Ok? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anyway, if you’re in the Close All Tabs fandom, and you want more of these deep dives, then please rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to this! Post about it! Follow us on Instagram! Tag us! Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The tech world has been buzzing over one of the juiciest legal showdowns in Silicon Valley: Musk v. Altman. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically, Elon Musk, of Tesla and Twitter infamy, accused OpenAI, the company behind ChatGPT, and its leadership of betraying the company’s nonprofit roots. He alleged that instead of sticking to the original mission, which was to build safe artificial general intelligence for the benefit of all of humanity, the company chased profits over AI safety. He says they “stole a charity.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the other side: Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI who co-founded the company with Musk. Once upon a time, they were actually buddies. But today? They’re bitter rivals. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For three weeks, tech billionaires, their legal counsel, their personal security guards, and a throng of journalists packed into a courtroom in Oakland, California. This was a real “who’s who” of the AI industry. The six billionaires who took the stand have a collective net worth of around $850 billion dollars. That’s more than the GDP of most countries. And what did the uber wealthy bring for a long day at court? The hottest accessory in downtown Oakland: Fancy butt cushions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Record scratch]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, I have to admit, I was not looking, uh, anywhere in the vicinity of their butts, so I did not see these butt cushions, uh, that I read about in Wired. But, um, I, I did see some more, you know, sober, uh, sensible butt cushions that the lawyers were using.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Rachael Myrow, she’s the Silicon Valley tech editor at KQED, and she covered the case, trekking out for the grueling 12 days of trial. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I really should have come up with one of my own because we were in that court, courtroom from 8am in the morning to 2 in the afternoon most days.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This trial was one of the courtroom dramas of the decade. Rachael said it was like \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Silicon Valley\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, the HBO show, meets a telenovela. Before it even started, Musk got so catty online that the judge threatened him with a gag order.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He went on X on the eve of the trial, popping off about Scam Altman until Judge Gonzalez Rogers dressed him down in front of the court.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s just the start of this gossip feast. We’re talking backstabbing! Personal diary entries read aloud! Secret affairs! Over 20 witnesses airing out everyone’s dirty laundry. And after all of that, the jury sided with OpenAI. So does this count as a crushing blow to Elon Musk?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Musk operates like President Trump. He sues for all sorts of reasons, and he also counts a win differently than normal people would count a win.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he doesn’t need to win in the courtroom to win in other ways. Because nobody walked out of this trial looking great, especially not Sam Altman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The historical record now shows a group of extraordinarily entitled people, mostly men, scrambling to be the tip of the spear for the AI revolution. Uh, I think the benefit of humanity never had anything to do with it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the end of the day, nobody really won here. We’re going to get into that and open a few tabs about the trial, the drama leading up to it, the great billionaire AI industry reckoning and what this really means for the rest of us plebeians. Ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, let’s open our first tab: Sam Altman, Elon Musk relationship timeline \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">K-dramas, telenovelas, any CW show, pick your poison. At its core, this scenario is a soap opera classic. Two besties have a falling out, struggle for power, and forgetting what they once meant to each other become embroiled in a years-long feud, hell bent on taking the other down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t know if they ever were friends. But also I wouldn’t say that they were frenemies, and again, this is just from my experience of the trial, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, maybe that was a little bit of fanfiction. But we can’t write off their tech bromance entirely. After all, during the trial, Altman testified under oath that Musk used to show him memes on his phone. That’s pretty intimate, if you ask me. And years before that, they were two very rich guys who shared a dream.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Elon Musk in particular, uh, was very worried about the thought that artificial general intelligence, which is to say AI that surpasses human intelligence, uh, could, uh, come to the hands of one powerful player first, and then they would have, I don’t know, world domination within their grasp. So he got together with Sam Altman of Y Combinator fame or infamy, however you see it, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Y Combinator is the startup accelerator that launched Reddit, Airbnb, DoorDash, Dropbox, Stripe, Coinbase, the list goes on. Sam Altman was part of the inaugural cohort. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the two of them cooked up this nonprofit with a charitable mission. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They launched OpenAI in 2015, as a nonprofit artificial intelligence research company. In the first blog post, the company wrote: “Our goal is to advance digital intelligence in the way that is most likely to benefit humanity as a whole, unconstrained by a need to generate financial return. Since our research is free from financial obligations, we can better focus on a positive human impact.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it doesn’t take long before they realize that if this is gonna be a thing, if this is gonna compete with Google, and whoever else might come along they were gonna need way more money than they were pulling in at the time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Elon Musk was spending millions, but they were probably gonna need billions. They started talking about setting up a for-profit division. And it wasn’t long before they realized in this conversation, collectively, that Elon wanted to be in charge of it, in control of it. And you can tell this because, you know, mounds of discovery, personal texts and email chains and personal journal entries made it abundantly clear that Musk was thinking close to the beginning like, ‘I know what I’ll do. We’ll fold this new this for-profit version of OpenAI into Tesla, where I can work on AGI in secret.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, Sam Altman and the other OpenAI principal co-founders weren’t down for that. Musk walked away in 2018. OpenAI launched ChatGPT in 2022. A year later, Musk announced his own AI startup, xAI, which eventually launched Grok. Musk has boasted about how Grok is not trained to be “woke”, unlike competitors like ChatGPT. OpenAI, meanwhile, has become the belle of the Silicon Valley ball, nabbing billions of dollars of investment from Microsoft. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And at a certain point, it becomes clear that the OpenAI nonprofit is really a shell of its former self. Right? Like, it’s all of the IP, all of the intellectual property has shifted, uh, from the nonprofit to the for-profit, all of the talent…I think it was kind of sitting there employee-free until very recently, and money was put into it. It’s now estimated to be worth about 200 billion, with a B, dollars. But what has this nonprofit been up to? Precious little. Precious little. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so at some point, Musk decides to sue and to say, ‘Wait a second, you know, um, this is a bait and switch…they’ve abandoned the mission that we cooked up originally and, I want recompense. I want Altman and others, stripped from the board, stripped from their leadership positions. I want, something like $150 billion shifted from the for-profit to the nonprofit.’ But of course, if you’re OpenAI, your attitude is like, ‘Whoa, this is clearly vindictive.’ You know, you didn’t get what you want, that’s why you walked away with your toys and your money, and, uh, you know, we’re gonna see you in court.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This legal showdown has been simmering for years. Between filing in early 2024 and finally walking into the courtroom for his testimony last month, Musk has: filed a motion accusing OpenAI and Microsoft of being a monopoly, led a group of investors in an attempt to buy OpenAI, threatened to sue Apple for giving OpenAI preferential treatment in the App Store, and has gotten into multiple online spats with Altman. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was 100% clear there’s no love lost, uh, between you know, the principals. You know, what I like to say is, like, nobody has clean hands in this situation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what exactly happened at this trial? Let’s open another new tab: Musk v. Altman \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> On one side you’ve got Elon Musk. You know, he didn’t come to be the wealthiest person on Earth by accident, right? Uh, even if he may not have been the person to start many of the companies he now owns and controls, uh, he took them into the stratosphere, quite literally in the case of SpaceX.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s very good at doing that, but he’s also well known to be mercurial, to have a kind of Jekyll and Hyde personality, to push other people to the breaking point.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, um, he’s gonna make decisions that, uh, he doesn’t expect to be countermanded on in the slightest. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then you have somebody like Sam Altman, and, uh, I’ll tell you, it wasn’t any accident that The New Yorker came out with a scandalous profile of Sam Altman on the eve of the trial that basically, uh, described him as a compulsive pathological liar, and all of that came out in the trial too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Let’s go through a few highlights from this trial. It got pretty juicy when Shivon Zillis took the stand. She’s a venture capitalist and machine learning expert who started working at OpenAI when it launched, and later joined the board of directors. She’s also the mother of four of Musk’s fourteen children. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In her testimony, she said that their relationship started with a “one-off” at a corporate off-site. When she decided to start a family on her own, Musk offered to be her platonic sperm donor. Their relationship grew, and now, they’re romantic partners. She told the OpenAI board about her relationship with Musk only after Business Insider started reporting on it. According to other testimony, many board members wanted to remove her, but decided to let her stay to, “keep the Elon conflict under control.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think for many people who are not familiar with Silicon Valley shenanigans, going back decades, not, this is not new to AI, um, it’s not just neutral characters on the board. It’s a very insular world. It’s on the level of incest, I would say. And so I, for one, was not shocked to discover that Elon Musk had a, again, like a consigliere on the board making decisions. She seemed to be there in many ways, um, serving as a go-between, between Sam and Elon, helping to smooth over conversations, helping to, to help them reach points of agreement when that was possible, and at the very least, have clarity on what the other side was thinking when that was not. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Something else that also g- kind of struck me about not just Zelis’s testimony, but also the other women who had roles in this period of time at OpenAI that was under discussion, is how much even the smartest women were only number twos, number threes, ancillary characters in a drama that starred men. This is all about men, primarily white men, with a tremendous sense of entitlement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there are these salacious journal entries. So, Greg Brockman is the president of OpenAI, and today, he has a 30 billion dollar stake in the company. But he wasn’t always so ludicrously wealthy. During the trial, pages of his personal diary from nearly 10 years ago were read out loud. And what he wrote seems to bolster Musk’s argument that they were all in it for the money, not necessarily for the good of humanity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Word to the wise, be aware that if you get sued, they’re gonna come looking for this stuff. You know? Like, when he’s, when he’s writing to himself, “What will take me to $1 billion?” it was pretty clear that it sounded like he was interested in becoming rich. You have a guy who was personally ambitious. Um, is that illegal? I don’t know if it’s illegal. It certainly didn’t look good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The funny thing here about Zelis, and it’s kind of in parallel to, to Brockman, is that, you know, Zelis was taking notes. And also a lot of Zelis’ emails and texts document how early Musk knew that people were talking about a, uh, a for-profit, that Musk himself was talking about a for-profit form of OpenAI. So this kind of ate away at the argument that he was shocked, shocked to discover that self-enrichment had become such a powerful motivator for his colleagues.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Another standout from the trial: texts between Sam Altman and former OpenAI CTO Mira Murati from the night that the OpenAI board voted to fire Altman as CEO. He was reinstated after over 90% of OpenAI employees threatened to quit and work for Microsoft. That in between time period is known as “The Blip.” And the exchanges from the night it started were read in court, and have since gone viral — immediately embedded in the lexicon of internet reaction memes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachael and I are going to do a dramatic reading of the texts \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I wanna be Mira. Or wait a moment. No, I wanna be Sam. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You wanna be Sam? Okay. Okay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you indicate directionally good or bad? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung as Mira Murati: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Directionally very bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can I come in? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung as Mira Murati: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They don’t want you to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you want to make it better? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m still willing to just walk away if that helps. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If they are ramped up for crazy lawsuits against me, then I’m not sure what… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you please tell them I just wanna resolve this however, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and would like to join?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung as Mira Murati: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re convinced about their decision.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For me to be fired or some new thing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung as Mira Murati: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, for you to be gone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. Then can I come in and talk about a path forward with them? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you ask why they’ve been saying all weekend they wanted me back?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Still don’t want me? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung as Mira Murati: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They don’t want you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, these read, these read like the kinds of texts that you would send during a really brutal breakup, like when you’re like, ‘Oh, my friend sees my ex in, in public. Can you please go talk to them?’ You know? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do they reveal about the power struggle at OpenAI though?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There was an attempted coup, essentially, precisely because of Sam Altman’s, uh, alleged managerial misbehavior, pitting different people against each other with different stories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another OpenAI board member, Helen Toner, shed light on this in her deposition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Helen Toner basically said that Altman lied about what kind of safety reviews were done about, uh, models of ChatGPT that were released, that he ultimately cleared for release, and which, you know, she could say really wasn’t about AI safety, It was about this, you know, lack of trust in the communication. Microsoft, uh, CEO Satya Nadella, at one point he characterized the entire blip as amateur hour. Uh, these naive board members thinking that they could, you know, hold Sam Altman accountable, uh, for, for lying to them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, Brockman and Altman were both throwing around some pretty wild accusations about why Musk really wanted control of OpenAI. Um, Brockman said that he wanted to raise massive amounts of money to build a colony on Mars. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, Sam Altman claimed that Musk was planning to pass OpenAI down to his children when he died, like succession style. But I mean, everyone’s dirty laundry was aired out in that courtroom. Like, no one came out with clean hands, including Sam Altman. So what did the witnesses say about him and his character? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my goodness. There were so many people who described him as a liar to the extent that when finally he was directly questioned about being a liar, uh, and he didn’t answer the question directly, it just made him look more like a liar. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were so many people who talked about his lack of, uh, trustworthiness. Sam Altman on the witness stand for hours being asked why he’s such a big liar. His former chief scientist, his former chief technology officer, two former board members, all testifying under oath that Altman exhibited a consistent pattern of dishonesty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is now in the public record forever.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">all of these guys come off as self-serving and, and, uh, backstabbing and oily. I wouldn’t wanna meet any of them in a dark alley or on the other side of a business deal. You know, like, they’re obviously not out for the benefit of humanity. But then we knew that. Didn’t we know that? I think we knew that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After all that, mountains of evidence, hours of testimony, brutal days spent on those cold, hard, unforgiving courtroom benches, unless you had a fancy butt cushion, the ending of this trial was kind of anticlimactic. It took the jury just two hours to come to a unanimous decision. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The jury decided that Musk simply waited too long to sue. California has statutes of limitations. So you can’t just sit on your claims forever.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in the end nothing happened! But that doesn’t mean the trial was for nothing. What’s the real outcome here? What did this courtroom drama really reveal? After the break, a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Ok, after the break? We’re leaving the courtroom, and going back to the real world. Stick around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re back! Let’s open one last tab: Musk v. Altman outcome.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the jury rejected Musk’s case this week. But it’s important to note that they didn’t make that decision based on the legal merit of his case, just that it was too late for Musk to pursue it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the jury found that Musk knew or should have known what was happening at OpenAI by 2020 at the latest. He filed in 2024. He argued in court, you know, that that’s because it wasn’t that he was opposed to any kind of for-profit division. He just didn’t want one that dominated the nonprofit. And that didn’t become clear to him until 2023. So he wanted to essentially start the clock on the statue of limitations later on in the game\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But OpenAI argued and the judge essentially agreed that Musk needed to have made the case soon after what he saw happening at OpenAI by 2020 at the latest. So all three claims, breach of charitable trust, unjust enrichment, Microsoft aiding and abetting, are gone because of the statute of limitations thing, not because they decided on the merits.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hours after the verdict came out, Elon Musk responded in the most Elon Musk possible way, which is he took it to Twitter, uh, sorry, X, to complain. Um, he did a classic tweet and delete. So the first tweet he said, first post, “This illustrates why the ruling by the terrible activist Oakland judge, who simply used the jury as a fig leaf, creates such a terrible precedent. She just handed a free license to loot charities if you can keep the looting quiet for a few years.” And then deleted that. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then followed up, “Regarding the OpenAI case, the judge and jury never actually ruled on the merits of the case just on a calendar technicality. There is no question to anyone following the case in detail that Altman and Brockman did in fact enrich themselves by stealing a charity. The only question is when they did it.” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did this response surprise you at all?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Not in the slightest. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So now that she makes clear she agrees with the jury, Musk posted ‘she’s a terrible activist Oakland judge who handed out a free license to loot charities.’ Musk is just not sympathetic. Um, but I’m thinking, like President Trump, it wasn’t necessarily important to Musk to win the case, just to file it, to drag Altman through the mud in a very public way ahead of these two IPOs. If what you what is revenge, that’s not nothing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This trial did a number on Sam Altman’s public image. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It certainly revealed a lot of the circular business deals he was involved in. He may have recused himself from the actual votes with some of these companies but he nonetheless profited from them or could profit in the near future. I think this was a habit he picked up at Y Combinator. Anyway, it was laid bare in the courtroom. I think it put another nail in the coffin. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, there were protesters outside the courthouse with some very funny signs up. And they poked the most fun at Musk, but they also poked a lot of fun at Sam Altman. You know, it’s Sam Altman’s house that got a Molotov cocktail thrown at it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, like, I think there is a great deal of public discontent, even rage over the rollout of AI into all of our lives. And, you know, this train got rolling out of the station through OpenAI, through ChatGPT, uh, and, you know, it was off to the races for a bunch of companies. But there at the forefront, at least in the beginning, was OpenAI, and Sam Altman is the face of OpenAI. And so this trial and all the mountains of evidence just confirm for people their opinions of Sam Altman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, if there’s a fan club somebody’s gotta send me a T-shirt to prove it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A lot of Silicon Valley tends to operate in a kind of bubble, disconnected from the public’s growing discontent around AI. Students are graduating into increasingly unstable careers, thanks to companies pushing to replace human workers with AI, regardless of whether AI can do the jobs better. Nothing shows that disconnect quite like the reaction to commencement speakers who tried to praise AI to a room full of new graduates. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from University of Central Florida Graduation] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Speaker: The rise of artificial intelligence is the next industrial revolution.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Crowd: Boos \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Speaker: Woo! What happened? Ok, I struck a chord! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Multiple commencement speakers across the country have tried to proselytize AI this month and they were booed each time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This rejection is not unfounded. While covering the trial, Rachael spoke to one of the protesters outside of the courthouse. Her name is Valerie. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valerie Sizemore:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I used to be a software engineer, but, um, have been unemployed by AI, so now I’m trying to make the resistance happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this trial, um, these two CEOs are fighting over a piece of a pie that, uh, doesn’t really matter for the world. They’re just trying to make themselves richer, but we’re all gonna lose regardless of who wins.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The AI titans, and they are titans now, keep mistaking public resistance for ignorance. Somebody like Valerie isn’t failing to understand the wonders of AI. She’s recognizing that the costs like higher power bills, strained electrical grids, her job disappearing on, her career disappearing on her. Right? A technology class that treats the question of public consent as an annoying inconvenience. I guess what I’m getting at here, Morgan, is that we’re not talking about a PR problem. We’re talking about class warfare.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was a battle between two billionaires. The trial revolved around this core question: Is OpenAI’s commitment to the benefit of humanity real? Or, is the company’s commitment really to chasing profits at the expense of AI safety? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What was supposed to be the trial of the century ended without answers or accountability. And by ruling on timing instead of the actual merits of the case, the trial also failed to establish any legal precedent for AI governance and guardrails. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s not gonna do a damn thing to stop this nightmare. Right? Obviously there’s gonna be an appeal from Musk’s attorneys. Who knows what’ll happen there? But you know, both Musk with his SpaceX IPO and Altman with his OpenAI IPO, they’re just gonna go forward as before. The AI rollout will go on as before.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who knows if we’ll ever get artificial general intelligence per se? I don’t think it matters. I mean, the changes that have been happening have been happening without artificial general intelligence. They’re, they’re disruptive enough. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How do you think this case will impact future AI cases?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> OpenAI is a strange creature. It started as a nonprofit, maybe because Musk and Altman intuitively knew that, uh, they had a better chance of raising money at that time if they presented it as for the good of humanity as opposed to, you know, just a chance to get in on this gold rush.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? And, and it must be said, and you know, many of the OpenAI principals said it many times that in the beginning, in the first few years of OpenAI, it was not clear at all it was gonna succeed, right? Google seemed to have such a head start and such a well-capitalized head start. So, you know, OpenAI has only become fabulously valued, um, in recent years, and it, it’s still not making money.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To go back to, you know, like what, what precedent does this set for Silicon Valley? I don’t know that it sets any precedent because who in their right mind would start something like OpenAI again in that way? You would set up a startup like any other group of entrepreneurs and take your chances with that setup.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of this theater ended with no real answers, no real accountability, and no real change for the AI industry overall. So then was the point of taking this case to court in the first place? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The judge put tight, and I mean tight brackets around what this case was going to be about at trial, which raises the question for me, why did she take this case in the first place?Why did she give Elon Musk standing if he had unclean hands? He was a rival. He was a competitor in the AI space. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that Gonzalez Rogers wanted these guys on both sides to be forced to peel back the curtain on how AI came to dominate the world in the way that it does now. And maybe the judge couldn’t give us accountability, but she could give us visibility, and that’s not nothing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And another upside: all those juicy, salacious details that were once just gossip fodder, that’s public record now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there any legal precedent here? I think maybe the point was the theater.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s it for this episode, but stick around after the credits. Ok, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Graywood v3 switches and Cherry profile PBT keycaps.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachael Myrow: Steve Molo, uh, the Musk’s attorney: “Have you misled people with whom you do business?” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Altman “I do not think so.” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then Molo says, “Would they think so?”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then Altman says, “I can’t answer that.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Molo says, “You’ve repeatedly been called a liar by people with whom you’ve done business.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Altman: “I have heard people say that.” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Molo: “Are you completely trustworthy?”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Altman: “I believe so.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Molo: “You don’t know?”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Altman: “I’ll just amend my answer to yes.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For three weeks, all eyes were on a salacious courtroom drama unfolding in Oakland, California. The Musk v. Altman trial had everything you’d expect from a favorite soap opera: Backstabbing? Check! Secret diary entries? Check! Pleading text messages? Check! And two billionaire buddies turned rivals duking it out over who did or did not steal a charity. Morgan and KQED’s Rachael Myrow explore the trial highlights, outcome and the big question: what was it all for?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1712425236\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/rachael-myrow\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachael Myrow\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, senior editor, Silicon Valley News Desk at KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084062/federal-court-rules-against-elon-musk-in-his-bitter-feud-with-sam-altman\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Federal Court Rules Against Elon Musk in His Bitter Feud With Sam Altman\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Katie DeBenedetti and Rachael Myrow, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/fancy-butt-pillows-musk-v-altman-trial/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everyone at the Musk v. Altman Trial Is Using Fancy Butt Cushions\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Paresh Dave, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WIRED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/ai-artificial-intelligence/932464/musk-v-altman-proved-that-ai-is-led-by-the-wrong-people\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Musk v. Altman proved that AI is led by the wrong people\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Hayden Field, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2026/04/13/sam-altman-may-control-our-future-can-he-be-trusted\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sam Altman May Control Our Future—Can He Be Trusted?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ronan Farrow and Andrew Marantz, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New Yorker\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/05/20/nx-s1-5822419/ai-colleges-commencement-booing\">Advice for 2026 commencement speakers: Don’t bring up AI\u003c/a> — Jude Joffe-Block and Michelle Aslam, \u003ci>NPR\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello Tabbers! Tabbies? Tabhive? We’re workshopping this. Ok? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anyway, if you’re in the Close All Tabs fandom, and you want more of these deep dives, then please rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to this! Post about it! Follow us on Instagram! Tag us! Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The tech world has been buzzing over one of the juiciest legal showdowns in Silicon Valley: Musk v. Altman. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically, Elon Musk, of Tesla and Twitter infamy, accused OpenAI, the company behind ChatGPT, and its leadership of betraying the company’s nonprofit roots. He alleged that instead of sticking to the original mission, which was to build safe artificial general intelligence for the benefit of all of humanity, the company chased profits over AI safety. He says they “stole a charity.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the other side: Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI who co-founded the company with Musk. Once upon a time, they were actually buddies. But today? They’re bitter rivals. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For three weeks, tech billionaires, their legal counsel, their personal security guards, and a throng of journalists packed into a courtroom in Oakland, California. This was a real “who’s who” of the AI industry. The six billionaires who took the stand have a collective net worth of around $850 billion dollars. That’s more than the GDP of most countries. And what did the uber wealthy bring for a long day at court? The hottest accessory in downtown Oakland: Fancy butt cushions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Record scratch]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, I have to admit, I was not looking, uh, anywhere in the vicinity of their butts, so I did not see these butt cushions, uh, that I read about in Wired. But, um, I, I did see some more, you know, sober, uh, sensible butt cushions that the lawyers were using.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Rachael Myrow, she’s the Silicon Valley tech editor at KQED, and she covered the case, trekking out for the grueling 12 days of trial. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I really should have come up with one of my own because we were in that court, courtroom from 8am in the morning to 2 in the afternoon most days.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This trial was one of the courtroom dramas of the decade. Rachael said it was like \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Silicon Valley\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, the HBO show, meets a telenovela. Before it even started, Musk got so catty online that the judge threatened him with a gag order.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He went on X on the eve of the trial, popping off about Scam Altman until Judge Gonzalez Rogers dressed him down in front of the court.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s just the start of this gossip feast. We’re talking backstabbing! Personal diary entries read aloud! Secret affairs! Over 20 witnesses airing out everyone’s dirty laundry. And after all of that, the jury sided with OpenAI. So does this count as a crushing blow to Elon Musk?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Musk operates like President Trump. He sues for all sorts of reasons, and he also counts a win differently than normal people would count a win.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he doesn’t need to win in the courtroom to win in other ways. Because nobody walked out of this trial looking great, especially not Sam Altman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The historical record now shows a group of extraordinarily entitled people, mostly men, scrambling to be the tip of the spear for the AI revolution. Uh, I think the benefit of humanity never had anything to do with it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the end of the day, nobody really won here. We’re going to get into that and open a few tabs about the trial, the drama leading up to it, the great billionaire AI industry reckoning and what this really means for the rest of us plebeians. Ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, let’s open our first tab: Sam Altman, Elon Musk relationship timeline \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">K-dramas, telenovelas, any CW show, pick your poison. At its core, this scenario is a soap opera classic. Two besties have a falling out, struggle for power, and forgetting what they once meant to each other become embroiled in a years-long feud, hell bent on taking the other down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t know if they ever were friends. But also I wouldn’t say that they were frenemies, and again, this is just from my experience of the trial, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, maybe that was a little bit of fanfiction. But we can’t write off their tech bromance entirely. After all, during the trial, Altman testified under oath that Musk used to show him memes on his phone. That’s pretty intimate, if you ask me. And years before that, they were two very rich guys who shared a dream.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Elon Musk in particular, uh, was very worried about the thought that artificial general intelligence, which is to say AI that surpasses human intelligence, uh, could, uh, come to the hands of one powerful player first, and then they would have, I don’t know, world domination within their grasp. So he got together with Sam Altman of Y Combinator fame or infamy, however you see it, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Y Combinator is the startup accelerator that launched Reddit, Airbnb, DoorDash, Dropbox, Stripe, Coinbase, the list goes on. Sam Altman was part of the inaugural cohort. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the two of them cooked up this nonprofit with a charitable mission. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They launched OpenAI in 2015, as a nonprofit artificial intelligence research company. In the first blog post, the company wrote: “Our goal is to advance digital intelligence in the way that is most likely to benefit humanity as a whole, unconstrained by a need to generate financial return. Since our research is free from financial obligations, we can better focus on a positive human impact.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it doesn’t take long before they realize that if this is gonna be a thing, if this is gonna compete with Google, and whoever else might come along they were gonna need way more money than they were pulling in at the time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Elon Musk was spending millions, but they were probably gonna need billions. They started talking about setting up a for-profit division. And it wasn’t long before they realized in this conversation, collectively, that Elon wanted to be in charge of it, in control of it. And you can tell this because, you know, mounds of discovery, personal texts and email chains and personal journal entries made it abundantly clear that Musk was thinking close to the beginning like, ‘I know what I’ll do. We’ll fold this new this for-profit version of OpenAI into Tesla, where I can work on AGI in secret.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, Sam Altman and the other OpenAI principal co-founders weren’t down for that. Musk walked away in 2018. OpenAI launched ChatGPT in 2022. A year later, Musk announced his own AI startup, xAI, which eventually launched Grok. Musk has boasted about how Grok is not trained to be “woke”, unlike competitors like ChatGPT. OpenAI, meanwhile, has become the belle of the Silicon Valley ball, nabbing billions of dollars of investment from Microsoft. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And at a certain point, it becomes clear that the OpenAI nonprofit is really a shell of its former self. Right? Like, it’s all of the IP, all of the intellectual property has shifted, uh, from the nonprofit to the for-profit, all of the talent…I think it was kind of sitting there employee-free until very recently, and money was put into it. It’s now estimated to be worth about 200 billion, with a B, dollars. But what has this nonprofit been up to? Precious little. Precious little. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so at some point, Musk decides to sue and to say, ‘Wait a second, you know, um, this is a bait and switch…they’ve abandoned the mission that we cooked up originally and, I want recompense. I want Altman and others, stripped from the board, stripped from their leadership positions. I want, something like $150 billion shifted from the for-profit to the nonprofit.’ But of course, if you’re OpenAI, your attitude is like, ‘Whoa, this is clearly vindictive.’ You know, you didn’t get what you want, that’s why you walked away with your toys and your money, and, uh, you know, we’re gonna see you in court.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This legal showdown has been simmering for years. Between filing in early 2024 and finally walking into the courtroom for his testimony last month, Musk has: filed a motion accusing OpenAI and Microsoft of being a monopoly, led a group of investors in an attempt to buy OpenAI, threatened to sue Apple for giving OpenAI preferential treatment in the App Store, and has gotten into multiple online spats with Altman. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was 100% clear there’s no love lost, uh, between you know, the principals. You know, what I like to say is, like, nobody has clean hands in this situation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what exactly happened at this trial? Let’s open another new tab: Musk v. Altman \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> On one side you’ve got Elon Musk. You know, he didn’t come to be the wealthiest person on Earth by accident, right? Uh, even if he may not have been the person to start many of the companies he now owns and controls, uh, he took them into the stratosphere, quite literally in the case of SpaceX.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s very good at doing that, but he’s also well known to be mercurial, to have a kind of Jekyll and Hyde personality, to push other people to the breaking point.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, um, he’s gonna make decisions that, uh, he doesn’t expect to be countermanded on in the slightest. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then you have somebody like Sam Altman, and, uh, I’ll tell you, it wasn’t any accident that The New Yorker came out with a scandalous profile of Sam Altman on the eve of the trial that basically, uh, described him as a compulsive pathological liar, and all of that came out in the trial too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Let’s go through a few highlights from this trial. It got pretty juicy when Shivon Zillis took the stand. She’s a venture capitalist and machine learning expert who started working at OpenAI when it launched, and later joined the board of directors. She’s also the mother of four of Musk’s fourteen children. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In her testimony, she said that their relationship started with a “one-off” at a corporate off-site. When she decided to start a family on her own, Musk offered to be her platonic sperm donor. Their relationship grew, and now, they’re romantic partners. She told the OpenAI board about her relationship with Musk only after Business Insider started reporting on it. According to other testimony, many board members wanted to remove her, but decided to let her stay to, “keep the Elon conflict under control.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think for many people who are not familiar with Silicon Valley shenanigans, going back decades, not, this is not new to AI, um, it’s not just neutral characters on the board. It’s a very insular world. It’s on the level of incest, I would say. And so I, for one, was not shocked to discover that Elon Musk had a, again, like a consigliere on the board making decisions. She seemed to be there in many ways, um, serving as a go-between, between Sam and Elon, helping to smooth over conversations, helping to, to help them reach points of agreement when that was possible, and at the very least, have clarity on what the other side was thinking when that was not. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Something else that also g- kind of struck me about not just Zelis’s testimony, but also the other women who had roles in this period of time at OpenAI that was under discussion, is how much even the smartest women were only number twos, number threes, ancillary characters in a drama that starred men. This is all about men, primarily white men, with a tremendous sense of entitlement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there are these salacious journal entries. So, Greg Brockman is the president of OpenAI, and today, he has a 30 billion dollar stake in the company. But he wasn’t always so ludicrously wealthy. During the trial, pages of his personal diary from nearly 10 years ago were read out loud. And what he wrote seems to bolster Musk’s argument that they were all in it for the money, not necessarily for the good of humanity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Word to the wise, be aware that if you get sued, they’re gonna come looking for this stuff. You know? Like, when he’s, when he’s writing to himself, “What will take me to $1 billion?” it was pretty clear that it sounded like he was interested in becoming rich. You have a guy who was personally ambitious. Um, is that illegal? I don’t know if it’s illegal. It certainly didn’t look good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The funny thing here about Zelis, and it’s kind of in parallel to, to Brockman, is that, you know, Zelis was taking notes. And also a lot of Zelis’ emails and texts document how early Musk knew that people were talking about a, uh, a for-profit, that Musk himself was talking about a for-profit form of OpenAI. So this kind of ate away at the argument that he was shocked, shocked to discover that self-enrichment had become such a powerful motivator for his colleagues.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Another standout from the trial: texts between Sam Altman and former OpenAI CTO Mira Murati from the night that the OpenAI board voted to fire Altman as CEO. He was reinstated after over 90% of OpenAI employees threatened to quit and work for Microsoft. That in between time period is known as “The Blip.” And the exchanges from the night it started were read in court, and have since gone viral — immediately embedded in the lexicon of internet reaction memes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachael and I are going to do a dramatic reading of the texts \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I wanna be Mira. Or wait a moment. No, I wanna be Sam. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You wanna be Sam? Okay. Okay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you indicate directionally good or bad? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung as Mira Murati: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Directionally very bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can I come in? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung as Mira Murati: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They don’t want you to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you want to make it better? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m still willing to just walk away if that helps. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If they are ramped up for crazy lawsuits against me, then I’m not sure what… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you please tell them I just wanna resolve this however, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and would like to join?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung as Mira Murati: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re convinced about their decision.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For me to be fired or some new thing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung as Mira Murati: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, for you to be gone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. Then can I come in and talk about a path forward with them? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you ask why they’ve been saying all weekend they wanted me back?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow as Sam Altman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Still don’t want me? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Message sent whoosh]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung as Mira Murati: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They don’t want you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, these read, these read like the kinds of texts that you would send during a really brutal breakup, like when you’re like, ‘Oh, my friend sees my ex in, in public. Can you please go talk to them?’ You know? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do they reveal about the power struggle at OpenAI though?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There was an attempted coup, essentially, precisely because of Sam Altman’s, uh, alleged managerial misbehavior, pitting different people against each other with different stories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another OpenAI board member, Helen Toner, shed light on this in her deposition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Helen Toner basically said that Altman lied about what kind of safety reviews were done about, uh, models of ChatGPT that were released, that he ultimately cleared for release, and which, you know, she could say really wasn’t about AI safety, It was about this, you know, lack of trust in the communication. Microsoft, uh, CEO Satya Nadella, at one point he characterized the entire blip as amateur hour. Uh, these naive board members thinking that they could, you know, hold Sam Altman accountable, uh, for, for lying to them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, Brockman and Altman were both throwing around some pretty wild accusations about why Musk really wanted control of OpenAI. Um, Brockman said that he wanted to raise massive amounts of money to build a colony on Mars. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, Sam Altman claimed that Musk was planning to pass OpenAI down to his children when he died, like succession style. But I mean, everyone’s dirty laundry was aired out in that courtroom. Like, no one came out with clean hands, including Sam Altman. So what did the witnesses say about him and his character? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my goodness. There were so many people who described him as a liar to the extent that when finally he was directly questioned about being a liar, uh, and he didn’t answer the question directly, it just made him look more like a liar. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were so many people who talked about his lack of, uh, trustworthiness. Sam Altman on the witness stand for hours being asked why he’s such a big liar. His former chief scientist, his former chief technology officer, two former board members, all testifying under oath that Altman exhibited a consistent pattern of dishonesty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is now in the public record forever.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">all of these guys come off as self-serving and, and, uh, backstabbing and oily. I wouldn’t wanna meet any of them in a dark alley or on the other side of a business deal. You know, like, they’re obviously not out for the benefit of humanity. But then we knew that. Didn’t we know that? I think we knew that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After all that, mountains of evidence, hours of testimony, brutal days spent on those cold, hard, unforgiving courtroom benches, unless you had a fancy butt cushion, the ending of this trial was kind of anticlimactic. It took the jury just two hours to come to a unanimous decision. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The jury decided that Musk simply waited too long to sue. California has statutes of limitations. So you can’t just sit on your claims forever.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in the end nothing happened! But that doesn’t mean the trial was for nothing. What’s the real outcome here? What did this courtroom drama really reveal? After the break, a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Ok, after the break? We’re leaving the courtroom, and going back to the real world. Stick around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re back! Let’s open one last tab: Musk v. Altman outcome.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the jury rejected Musk’s case this week. But it’s important to note that they didn’t make that decision based on the legal merit of his case, just that it was too late for Musk to pursue it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the jury found that Musk knew or should have known what was happening at OpenAI by 2020 at the latest. He filed in 2024. He argued in court, you know, that that’s because it wasn’t that he was opposed to any kind of for-profit division. He just didn’t want one that dominated the nonprofit. And that didn’t become clear to him until 2023. So he wanted to essentially start the clock on the statue of limitations later on in the game\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But OpenAI argued and the judge essentially agreed that Musk needed to have made the case soon after what he saw happening at OpenAI by 2020 at the latest. So all three claims, breach of charitable trust, unjust enrichment, Microsoft aiding and abetting, are gone because of the statute of limitations thing, not because they decided on the merits.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hours after the verdict came out, Elon Musk responded in the most Elon Musk possible way, which is he took it to Twitter, uh, sorry, X, to complain. Um, he did a classic tweet and delete. So the first tweet he said, first post, “This illustrates why the ruling by the terrible activist Oakland judge, who simply used the jury as a fig leaf, creates such a terrible precedent. She just handed a free license to loot charities if you can keep the looting quiet for a few years.” And then deleted that. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then followed up, “Regarding the OpenAI case, the judge and jury never actually ruled on the merits of the case just on a calendar technicality. There is no question to anyone following the case in detail that Altman and Brockman did in fact enrich themselves by stealing a charity. The only question is when they did it.” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did this response surprise you at all?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Not in the slightest. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So now that she makes clear she agrees with the jury, Musk posted ‘she’s a terrible activist Oakland judge who handed out a free license to loot charities.’ Musk is just not sympathetic. Um, but I’m thinking, like President Trump, it wasn’t necessarily important to Musk to win the case, just to file it, to drag Altman through the mud in a very public way ahead of these two IPOs. If what you what is revenge, that’s not nothing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This trial did a number on Sam Altman’s public image. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It certainly revealed a lot of the circular business deals he was involved in. He may have recused himself from the actual votes with some of these companies but he nonetheless profited from them or could profit in the near future. I think this was a habit he picked up at Y Combinator. Anyway, it was laid bare in the courtroom. I think it put another nail in the coffin. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, there were protesters outside the courthouse with some very funny signs up. And they poked the most fun at Musk, but they also poked a lot of fun at Sam Altman. You know, it’s Sam Altman’s house that got a Molotov cocktail thrown at it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, like, I think there is a great deal of public discontent, even rage over the rollout of AI into all of our lives. And, you know, this train got rolling out of the station through OpenAI, through ChatGPT, uh, and, you know, it was off to the races for a bunch of companies. But there at the forefront, at least in the beginning, was OpenAI, and Sam Altman is the face of OpenAI. And so this trial and all the mountains of evidence just confirm for people their opinions of Sam Altman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, if there’s a fan club somebody’s gotta send me a T-shirt to prove it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A lot of Silicon Valley tends to operate in a kind of bubble, disconnected from the public’s growing discontent around AI. Students are graduating into increasingly unstable careers, thanks to companies pushing to replace human workers with AI, regardless of whether AI can do the jobs better. Nothing shows that disconnect quite like the reaction to commencement speakers who tried to praise AI to a room full of new graduates. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from University of Central Florida Graduation] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Speaker: The rise of artificial intelligence is the next industrial revolution.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Crowd: Boos \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Speaker: Woo! What happened? Ok, I struck a chord! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Multiple commencement speakers across the country have tried to proselytize AI this month and they were booed each time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This rejection is not unfounded. While covering the trial, Rachael spoke to one of the protesters outside of the courthouse. Her name is Valerie. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valerie Sizemore:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I used to be a software engineer, but, um, have been unemployed by AI, so now I’m trying to make the resistance happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this trial, um, these two CEOs are fighting over a piece of a pie that, uh, doesn’t really matter for the world. They’re just trying to make themselves richer, but we’re all gonna lose regardless of who wins.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The AI titans, and they are titans now, keep mistaking public resistance for ignorance. Somebody like Valerie isn’t failing to understand the wonders of AI. She’s recognizing that the costs like higher power bills, strained electrical grids, her job disappearing on, her career disappearing on her. Right? A technology class that treats the question of public consent as an annoying inconvenience. I guess what I’m getting at here, Morgan, is that we’re not talking about a PR problem. We’re talking about class warfare.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was a battle between two billionaires. The trial revolved around this core question: Is OpenAI’s commitment to the benefit of humanity real? Or, is the company’s commitment really to chasing profits at the expense of AI safety? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What was supposed to be the trial of the century ended without answers or accountability. And by ruling on timing instead of the actual merits of the case, the trial also failed to establish any legal precedent for AI governance and guardrails. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s not gonna do a damn thing to stop this nightmare. Right? Obviously there’s gonna be an appeal from Musk’s attorneys. Who knows what’ll happen there? But you know, both Musk with his SpaceX IPO and Altman with his OpenAI IPO, they’re just gonna go forward as before. The AI rollout will go on as before.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who knows if we’ll ever get artificial general intelligence per se? I don’t think it matters. I mean, the changes that have been happening have been happening without artificial general intelligence. They’re, they’re disruptive enough. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How do you think this case will impact future AI cases?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> OpenAI is a strange creature. It started as a nonprofit, maybe because Musk and Altman intuitively knew that, uh, they had a better chance of raising money at that time if they presented it as for the good of humanity as opposed to, you know, just a chance to get in on this gold rush.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? And, and it must be said, and you know, many of the OpenAI principals said it many times that in the beginning, in the first few years of OpenAI, it was not clear at all it was gonna succeed, right? Google seemed to have such a head start and such a well-capitalized head start. So, you know, OpenAI has only become fabulously valued, um, in recent years, and it, it’s still not making money.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To go back to, you know, like what, what precedent does this set for Silicon Valley? I don’t know that it sets any precedent because who in their right mind would start something like OpenAI again in that way? You would set up a startup like any other group of entrepreneurs and take your chances with that setup.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of this theater ended with no real answers, no real accountability, and no real change for the AI industry overall. So then was the point of taking this case to court in the first place? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The judge put tight, and I mean tight brackets around what this case was going to be about at trial, which raises the question for me, why did she take this case in the first place?Why did she give Elon Musk standing if he had unclean hands? He was a rival. He was a competitor in the AI space. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that Gonzalez Rogers wanted these guys on both sides to be forced to peel back the curtain on how AI came to dominate the world in the way that it does now. And maybe the judge couldn’t give us accountability, but she could give us visibility, and that’s not nothing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And another upside: all those juicy, salacious details that were once just gossip fodder, that’s public record now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there any legal precedent here? I think maybe the point was the theater.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s it for this episode, but stick around after the credits. Ok, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Graywood v3 switches and Cherry profile PBT keycaps.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachael Myrow: Steve Molo, uh, the Musk’s attorney: “Have you misled people with whom you do business?” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Altman “I do not think so.” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then Molo says, “Would they think so?”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then Altman says, “I can’t answer that.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Molo says, “You’ve repeatedly been called a liar by people with whom you’ve done business.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Altman: “I have heard people say that.” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Molo: “Are you completely trustworthy?”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Altman: “I believe so.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Molo: “You don’t know?”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Altman: “I’ll just amend my answer to yes.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "iran-is-winning-the-slopaganda-war",
"title": "Iran Is Winning The Slopaganda War",
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"headTitle": "Iran Is Winning The Slopaganda War | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI-generated LEGO videos have become a tool of war. Since the U.S.-Israel war with Iran began in late February, increasingly elaborate videos featuring LEGO figures and catchy rap lyrics have been flooding our feeds. They’re shareable, surprisingly high quality and they’re deeply critical of the U.S. and Trump. They’re also propaganda.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome to the age of “slopaganda” — where AI Slop meets information warfare.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Michał Klincewicz, assistant professor of computational cognitive science, joins Morgan to break down the rise of slopaganda, what it’s doing to our information ecosystem and why the U.S. is losing the meme war.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5115004196\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://sites.google.com/site/michalklincewicz/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Michał Klincewicz\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, assistant professor of computational cognitive science at Tilburg University\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://slopaganda-two.vercel.app/#paper\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slopaganda: The interaction between propaganda and generative AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Michal Klincewicz, Mark Alfano, and Amir Ebrahimi Fard, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Filosofiska Notiser \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://theconversation.com/slopaganda-wars-how-and-why-the-us-and-iran-are-flooding-the-zone-with-viral-ai-generated-noise-280024\">Slopaganda wars: how (and why) the US and Iran are flooding the zone with viral AI-generated noise\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Mark Alfano and Michal Klincewicz, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>The Conversation\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2026/4/17/vengeance-for-all-how-irans-lego-videos-won-narrative-war-against-trump\">‘Vengeance for all’: How Iran’s Lego videos won narrative war against Trump | US-Israel war on Iran News\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Alia Chughtai, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>Al Jazeera\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/culture/infinite-scroll/the-team-behind-a-pro-iran-lego-themed-viral-video-campaign\">The Team Behind a Pro-Iran, Lego-Themed Viral-Video Campaign\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Kyle Chayka, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>The New Yorker\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/youtube-removes-iran-linked-channel-producing-anti-trump-animation\">YouTube removes pro-Iran channel producing anti-Trump videos \u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Alex MacDonald, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Middle East Eye\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/dec/31/we-want-the-mullahs-gone-economic-crisis-sparks-biggest-protests-in-iran-since-2022\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘We want the mullahs gone’: economic crisis sparks biggest protests in Iran since 2022\u003c/span>\u003c/a> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Deepa Parent and William Christou, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Guardian \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Host Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? It would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! Send it to your friends…your frenemies…that one niche micro influencer you kind of have a parasocial relationship with! Maybe they’ll respond, I don’t know!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, let’s get to the show. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n[Audio clip from Explosive Media video] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I just looked him in the eye and told him what I saw. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wait a minute homie, I said Inshallah. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Little orange man, little orange man, it’s the straight of Iran.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Little orange man. Iran! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, let me try to explain what’s going on here. So this is an animated video, and it’s clearly AI. The setting is LEGO Pirates of the Caribbean — and it opens by zooming in on this Davy Jones-type character. You know, the cursed pirate with the tentacle beard? But this Davy Jones also looks a lot like President Donald Trump. Instead of a peg leg, he has a golf club. And he’s steering his ship directly through a LEGO gate labeled “Strait of Hormuz.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from Explosive Media video] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Little orange man, little orange man, get straight out of Hormuz, little orange man. Get out!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is one of dozens of incredibly catchy, viral videos from a small content studio called Explosive Media. All of their videos follow a similar format: LEGO characters, and taking shots at the Trump administration and the United States. Like, calling the president “the Twitter-finger king.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from Explosive Media video] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Twitter finger king, fake ring, cap master with the lies. Always tweeting great success while your whole damn squad cries.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Based on the style, tone, and topics covered, you might think this content is coming from a left-wing American studio. Or maybe a progressive media outlet.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not that different from the kind of stuff the Democratic party has posted to appeal to gen z voters.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there’s a consistent thread through every single video — they all revolve around the war between the US and Iran. And it’s because they’re coming directly \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">from\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Iran. That’s right, it’s all propaganda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wartime propaganda is nothing new. But take a look at the videos spreading across social media today … something feels different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from Explosive Media video] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Little orange man, little orange man, get straight out of Hormuz, little orange man. Get out!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome to the age of slopaganda. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a combination of “slop” as in AI slop and propaganda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guest Michal Klincewicz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> it’s out of the bottle. The genie is out of the bottle and it’s gonna be wrecking havoc for a while. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Michal Klincewicz. He’s a professor of computational cognitive science at Tilburg University in the Netherlands. He’s one of the leading experts on slopaganda. He actually co-authored a paper on this last year. And he said that the slopaganda that’s coming out of Iran today is very different from the propaganda of past wars. It’s more potent. It’s churned out faster. There’s a clear, consistent narrative that pulls viewers in and convinces them to keep watching.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slopaganda has gotten really popular, making it harder to discern what’s real, and what’s not. When our information ecosystem is flooded with catchy LEGO music videos, what is it distracting us from? What happens when public opinion can be so easily manipulated by AI slop? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is the slopagandapocalypse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slopageddon? Is that, is that better, slopageddon? Ooh!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I like slopageddon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. That’s better. You know, I just coined a term on your show, slopageddon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today’s deep dive is all about slopaganda: how it took over our feeds, what it’s doing to our brains, and why the US might be losing the meme war. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Plus, we’re going to get into how we might be able to stop Slopaggeddon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ready? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By now, you know this goes! Let’s open a new tab: What is slopaganda? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok let’s break this down. First: slop.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slop is kind of mid to low quality AI generated content,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">that is online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Michal again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So text, videos, images, anything of the sort \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI slop has been flooding the internet for years now, but more recently we’ve seen social media users embrace it, knowing it’s artificially generated, synthetic media. And that’s led to some slop content going viral. A few weeks ago we talked about an incredibly popular TikTok series called AI Fruit Love Island.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of Fruit Love Island]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome back to Fruit Love Island. Today, we’ve got a steamy challenge. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was basically Love Island, the reality TV dating show, but all of the contestants were sexy anthropomorphized fruit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of low-quality AI generated content has become the norm online. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there’s the second part of the word, propaganda\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> or content that’s designed to deliver some kind of political message, usually to persuade.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So affect beliefs, perceptions,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">or emotional states of the audience or a political goal in mind. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Propaganda is not always about boosting patriotism on the home front. Across history, countries have used propaganda on their opponents’ citizens, to sow distrust in leadership. Like, during the Vietnam War, there was Hanoi Hannah. She was a Vietnamese broadcaster who recorded English language messages, designed to demoralize Americans GIs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of Hanoi Hannah]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">GI your government has abandoned you . They lied to you, GI. You know you cannot win this war. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The US has done it too, and on a massive scale. In fact, the US has done this in Iran. Back in 1953, the CIA helped overthrow Iran’s democratically elected prime minister. They staged riots and planted fake stories in local news outlets to manipulate public opinion. It’s a tactic the US has repeatedly used over the last 70 years: sowing distrust, destabilizing leadership, and engineering a regime change in Syria, Indonesia, Poland, throughout Latin America. I mean, the list goes on and on. Propaganda plays a huge part in it. And when you add AI to the mix? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nMichal actually published a research paper about slopaganda last year — long before LEGO AI videos went viral. He’s known his co-authors for years — Mark Alfano, a philosopher who studies neural networks, and Amir Fard, a machine learning expert. Among themselves, they’ve talked about how propaganda has evolved with social media, algorithms, and bot farms. But then, in May of 2024, right as the US presidential election began heating up, they shared an experience that changed how they thought about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were all in Poland for a conference. Since it wasn’t too far from where they were staying, they decided to take a trip to Auschwitz. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I think that was a kind of a watershed moment for us because we connected the dots really very dramatically between what was happening and the way that things were talked about in the United States and what we were seeing.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The National Socialist Party of Germany had a propaganda wing. They used the radio, they used the newspapers, but they were delivering a message of disinformation about people that ended up dying there. And I think that for us, this caught fire. We talked about slopaganda right then and there. Eventually, this led up to writing a paper with Amir in November and December of 2024. We sort of channeled that rage and anger. That’s how it happened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the paper, the researchers detail the one-off deepfakes that went viral during the election: Kamala Harris saying something she never did, the AI generated images that made Taylor Swift look like she endorsed Trump, the voters who got calls from a voice that sounded exactly like then-President Joe Biden, encouraging them to stay home and not vote in the state primary.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n[Audio clip of Robocall sent to New Hampshire voters]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voting this Tuesday only enables the Republicans in their quest to elect Donald Trump again. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then last year, right after inauguration, President Trump himself posted a video and it wasn’t a deepfake. Michal said that was the tipping point that started the descent into slopageddon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b> \u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was a, I guess, a moment when Donald Trump during an interview or something said something about building a resort in Gaza city after the Israelis sort of move in, I guess. And they will build a resort, a Riviera on the coast of the Mediterranean and an AI video came out showing this and Benjamin Netanyahu and Trump sort of drinking margaritas poolside with Gaza Trump hotel in the background.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Donald Trump Gaza video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Donald’s coming to set you free, bringing the light for all to see. No more tunnels, no more fear. Trump Gaza is finally here.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was like the first one that clearly for us was emblematic of this. The first clear case of like, slopaganda as we envisioned it, I think is the Gaza video\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To be clear, this was a video posted by Donald Trump’s official account. The video starts with Gaza, demolished and reduced to rubble. Then, it’s transformed into a tourist destination. It’s gaudy and over the top, like if Vegas was on the beach. There’s a giant gold statue of President Trump, looming over everyone. There are market stands that sell golden effigies of Trump, and children carry golden balloons of Trump’s face. Elon Musk makes a few appearances, throwing cash at beachgoers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Donald Trump Gaza video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trump Gaza shining bright, golden future, a brand new light. Feast and dance, the deal is done. Trump Gaza number one.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s uncanny and it’s almost designed to not take seriously. Right? It’s a way of portraying something abhorrent in a way, something morally problematic, at least, if not despicable, um, through a joke,and it slips past, I think our moral defenses in a way, because we’re fascinated by that, right? Like just kind of watching the train wreck, the moral train wreck in that video, and we watch it to the end. Um, that’s a little bit like maybe reality TV or something.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a kind of thing that happens as you’re watching it. By the end, it’s somehow conceivable. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Trump administration was just the first. Slopaganda flooded elections in Europe, too. Russia’s propaganda machine dates back to the days of the Soviet Union — AI just supercharged it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of DW News report on AI Hungarian election ads]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the defining issues of our times, the use of artificial intelligence. And the risks that it could pose not only to all our jobs, but to democracy itself…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This year, during the Hungarian election for prime minister, the country’s social media feeds were overrun with fearmongering AI slop videos. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of DW News report on AI Hungarian election ads]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…a message he’s hammering home with the help of AI…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They claimed that Hungarians would be forcibly sent to war in Ukraine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of DW News report on AI Hungarian election ads]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The video ends with a warning that Brussels could make such a nightmare real…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Of course, none of it was real. The candidate behind those ads, the incumbent prime minister, has close ties to Vladimir Putin.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the same stuff that we would have seen from Russia. So, you know, disinformation campaigns about candidates, scandals, of corruption. Right? Narratives that are meant to like undermine, for example, the effort to put sanctions on Russia. All of these things are amplified with generative AI content so text, images, videos, and so on. And some of these are very effective or effective in that they’re like high quality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So why is slopaganda flooding our feeds? There’s no escape from it. It’s polluting pretty much every political conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But, in the U.S. specifically especially slopaganda from the White House. well, Michal said that it may have something to do with the ties between the US government and big tech companies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The long-term consequences of mixing corporate power and governance is very well known and studied around the world. It’s called fascism and a classic Italian Mussolini style fascism. That’s what they built in Italy and they kind of with a few tweaks, re-implemented in Germany. The rise of slopaganda or rise of like AI generated content has political consequences, even independently of that, because I think it gives a lot of power to a few people that can create the message. And it takes power away from the individuals that will be at the voting booth casting a vote. The person that controls the prompt, as we saw like with Grok or something, changes the conversation.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMorgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, but why can’t we look away from AI slop? What about it is so effective? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re going to get into that — after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Ok, more on slopaganda after the break. Stick around. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Let’s open a new tab: Why is slopaganda so effective?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve seen people refer to what’s currently happening between the U.S. And Iran as a meme war, and memes have been very potent vehicles of propaganda and disinformation. There’s a long documented history of memes being weaponized in politics and conflict. What makes this current iteration with slopaganda different? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/strong>It’s generated quickly, the quality is much higher. It’s more persuasive, it’s more complex. It has many layers: an audio one, a visual one, a narrative one, that are done extremely professionally. So all of that has to do with the fact that it’s generated by AI actually. So these tools enable this kind of fast turnaround, high quality stuff to come out. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMorgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Explosive Media, the digital content studio behind a lot of LEGO slopaganda, started posting animated political videos on YouTube last year. They had an anti-American theme, but didn’t really catch on. A few months ago, right around the first US-Israeli strikes on Iran, Explosive Media began posting LEGO-themed videos. And they blew up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the earlier videos had no dialogue, just intense music. It showed scenes of people who’ve been oppressed by the American government. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Native American riders on horses, dressed in traditional regalia, Japanese villagers gathered in front of a photo of Hiroshima after the atomic bomb, Palestinians in Gaza, West Africans who were chained and subjected to slavery and they’re all LEGOs. They take turns sending missiles to the White House, the Statue of Liberty, and the Titanic? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They gather and cheer, and text appears that says, “One Vengeance For All.” \u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That got some attention, but only went so far. Then Explosive Media added rapping on top of the LEGO videos … and suddenly, they’d cracked the code. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from Explosive Media video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You said you aint no pedophile, but bitch, you are. Yelling worldwide for the Epstein scar. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Iranian videos are using the language of the contemporary dialogue about colonialism, about imperialism about, uh, the Epstein class.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clips from Explosive Media video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sacred defense, we protecting the soil, while you sacrifice soldiers to pay for your spoil. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We see everything, every secret, every dirty Epstein link you hide \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Your government is run by pedophiles, they ordered you to die for Israel. They lied to you all. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All of these things are the kinds of words or the kinds of concepts that we can hear being thrown around by people in the US that comment on current affairs. This is what Iran is doing. They’re not presenting their propaganda or their message using the language of, say, Shia Islam or the Iran-Iraqi war or any of these that really matter to the old guard. Of the Iranian revolution. This stuff is new, it’s fresh, it hit, and it’s kind of capturing our attention here as opposed to the attention of the Iranians there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The LEGO music videos are so effective that it’s inspiring similar ones, from people in other countries, who also feel wronged by the US.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Earlier this month, the US announced additional sanctions on Cuba, which has already been devastated by the American-imposed fuel blockade.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Days after that announcement, an X user, based in Havana, posted this video: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of AI video from Cuba]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Escucha el rugido que Baja del Lomerío Aquí no hay miedo ni rastro de escalofrío Pretenden asfixiar la sabia de esta tierra con garras de imperio y tambores de guerra…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The translation – \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">listen to the roar descending from the hills. Here, there is no fear, nor a trace of a shiver. They seek to suffocate the sap of this land with claws of empire and war drums.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This video’s got it all. LEGO-fied depictions of Havana’s colorful cityscape, the idyllic Caribbean beaches, the vibrant tobacco farms wrapped up with a patriotic message about defending Cuba from an American invasion and obviously, set to a very catchy beat.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a trend now. Criticizing the US in any way? Do it with LEGO! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The White House has also been posting slopaganda to its various official channels. Though the American version is, well … just listen to this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from White House Strike video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here comes the heat from the USA. And boom! Up and down. What a strike. [cheering]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, so that video, again, posted by\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the White House, starts with an ESPN clip of real life bowling champion Pete Weber preparing for his legendary winning strike. Then it cuts to a bunch of animated bowling pins carrying guns and a sign that says “We won’t stop making nuclear weapons.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Lynyrd Skynyrd’s Free Bird playing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re in a desert. They’re marching. And yes, that is Lynyrd Skynyrd’s \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Free Bird\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> that you’re hearing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Suddenly, they’re in a bowling alley, getting into formation … and then a bowling ball emblazoned with American stars and stripes comes hurtling toward them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The pins come tumbling down, and a fighter jet comes flying out of the bowling ball. And as the beat picks up, the video cuts to real footage of American airstrikes on Iran. Fade to black. And then a title card that says “ The White House.” In case you forgot who made the video.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMichal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re not really high quality stuff. This is kind of their memes or content for made by, I think, boomers for boomers, essentially. And I think the LEGO videos from Iran are made by millennials for the world. And the White House is using the kind of language and conceptual tools that may have been effective 30 years ago. The messages are kind of mixed. They don’t form a coherent narrative the Iranian stuff on the other hand is very coherent and there is a way in which it’s presenting a narrative from one video to the next. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from Explosive Media video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Gulf is our hood, and we holdin’ the key, Get back on your phone, you, get no pass for free! World is askin’ if the gate is open? Yes or nah? I just smile at ’em…”I said Inshallah!” \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s almost as if these things were episodes that come out every day.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMorgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A spokesperson for Explosive Media told Al Jazeera that there are ten people who work on their videos. It’s a Gen Z studio — all of them are between 19 and 25. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMichal Klincewicz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would speculate a large team of people that know what they’re doing, have a very keen sense of both the media landscape in the United States and in the world, but also of the themes. So I would think this is probably the tip of an iceberg of some kind of a massive media and propaganda operation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The studio claims to be independent, but has admitted that their clientele does include the Iranian state. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it shows in how the slopaganda videos are used. They’re used to really undermine the war effort in the United States and to, I think, get Americans and other people around the world on their side.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Until recently, a lot of AI generated media has been designed to intentionally dupe people, the deepfaked call of Biden’s voice, telling voters to stay home, the videos of Ukrainian soldiers, appearing to surrender on the front lines.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the Iranian LEGO videos are so obviously AI slop. No one thinks the LEGO guy in the Little Orange Man video is \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">actually \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trump. No one is getting duped into believing that’s really him, dressed in a pirate get up and getting shipwrecked in Iran. So why is this propaganda still so effective? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Perhaps it’s so effective because it appears not to be real. These are not deep fakes. No one is pretending that this is real, that we know it’s AI generated, that kind of sucks you in. And there’s some kind of uncanniness about it. We’re kind of like, wait, what? And that moment I think is the first hook. There’s probably different videos, different styles of slopaganda for different audiences. That’s also one of its powers, that it’s so easy to make a customized version of the same message for a specific audience. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMorgan Sung : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In various interviews, a spokesperson for Explosive Media who goes by “Mr. Explosive” explained some of the team’s processes. He’s talked about how poetry is a pillar of Persian history and culture, so the team writes the rap lyrics themselves. Then, they use AI to Americanize the songs and generate the singing voices.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s clear that they have their fingers on the pulse of American pop culture. The Pirates of the Caribbean, for one, is one of Disney’s most successful franchises. It’s something that’s immediately recognizable and familiar to a lot of Americans. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Explosive Media video] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Listen … Lost in our fog, you call us the pirates? Man, check the mirror, dawg, you’re the one that’s biased, Vultures on the water, fiending for the black gold, Straight freeloaders, doing what you’re told! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these references are the sorts of things you may hear from more progressive liberal parts of our country about the problems of say, you know, wealth inequality or abuse of power, corruption by the Trump administration. This is where this stuff is coming from. So they’re kind of using the message that actually would resonate with people that are already in some ways uncomfortable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, this video, which is an outlier for Explosive Media. Instead of a story about LEGO pirate Trump bumbling his way through the strait of Hormuz, this one starts with an overhead shot of Tehran. A LEGO version, of course. A LEGO figurine smiles at the audience and holds out his arms to the viewer, like he’s welcoming us in for a hug. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Explosive Media video] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We do not hate you, people of the West. We have watched from across the ocean, from behind their walls, and what we see is a people who deserve better than what rules them.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The video lays out all these grievances with the American government and mainstream media. These are sentiments that resonate with a lot of Americans: concerns over rising costs, opposition to another war, feeling disempowered by the current political system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Explosive Media video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The billionaire who funds the law then writes the law himself, the pharmaceutical machine that keeps you sick for profit and wealth. The school that teaches history with chapters torn away. So you never ask the question, who made it this way? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMorgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The previous videos from Explosive Media have always attacked Trump or members of his cabinet. And for the most part, left the American people out of it. This video directly addresses Americans. Instead of taking personal shots at specific leaders, it’s a critique of the systemic failures of American society at large. It’s almost a show of solidarity.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Explosive Media video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We are not your enemies. We’re prisoners of the same cause. We love Americans. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s convincing. It’s supposed to be. This is the kind of emotional appeal that makes propaganda especially effective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, emotions are the first thing that we may have when we see a message. And if they’re negative emotions, in particular things like fear or anxiety or resentment, whatever it is that we experience or we believe while we have these emotional states, we’re more likely to remember. There’s a lot of research about this and the negativity bias in memory is pretty prominent and once it’s in there, it doesn’t get out. So you form that negative association with a politician or some kind of a celebrity, it’s gonna be very hard for you to get rid of it moving forward. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When there’s so much noise, it’s hard to pick out what’s real and what’s not. There’s only so much information that a human being can consume and process every day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What breaks through the noise and captures our attention tends to be content that’s emotionally alarming. It triggers our brain’s emotional center before we can process that information rationally. And studies have shown that people remember negative information better … which can ultimately influence our beliefs and reasoning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Between a dry news article and a catchy LEGO video — which one are you going to remember next week? Next month? Next election cycle? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s important to note that these videos are a very effective distraction. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All that stuff is distracting us from the nature of the Iranian regime that literally in January, machine gunned like tens of thousands of its own people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the end of last year, amid Iran’s worsening economic crisis, shop keepers and university students took to the streets in protest of the country’s Islamic leadership. A week later, demonstrations erupted across the country, calling for an end to the religious government, and demanding a secular democracy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Iranian authorities crushed the protests with brutal force. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Tehran eyewitness protest footage]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re shooting us! They’re shooting us! This government is shooting people.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Human rights groups say more than 7,000 people were killed during the protests, with tens of thousands more still unaccounted for.Doctors in Iran estimate that the death toll could be over 30,000.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Two things can be true. The LEGO slopaganda videos coming out of Iran make points about the US that a lot of Americans might agree with about its leadership, and how it’s failing its own people while also taking the spotlight off of Iran’s own government. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even if you know that the LEGO videos are fake and AI, if they’re hijacking your attention, drowning out other content online then the slopaganda is doing what it’s supposed to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That changes how we consume information, whether we care about truth at all. And that’s very bad for a democracy, actually, if you have a bunch of people that don’t care about what is true and are used to not taking what people say seriously. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what happens when LEGO rap overshadows actual news? When we can’t look away from an AI generated diss track? When a whole population can be so easily distracted? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slopaggedon. Michal and his co-authors call it the slopaganda shit storm. For our next tab, we’ll go with my favorite: slopagandapocalypse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open one more tab: How to survive the slopagandapocalypse \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Michal said it’s not really a question of stopping the slopaganda doomsday scenario — we’re already living it. And slopaganda is, relatively speaking, so new. We’re in uncharted waters here, and we don’t have solid research on the effects that slopaganda will have on society and democracy down the road. But Michal has a few hunches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One real possible consequence of this is that slopaganda is going to be here for, to stay And it will be a tool in the toolbox of every authoritarian regime in the world, just as like batons and riot police have been.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So will this be, uh, it will just be AI generated, slop is gonna be yet another way to bamboozle, distract people around the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slopaganda has already wormed its way into LA’s mayoral race, with former reality TV star and current candidate Spencer Pratt reposting AI-generated videos of his opponent. Like this Star Wars-themed one, where incumbent LA mayor Karen Bass, portrayed as Darth Vader, schemes with California Governor Gavin Newsom, who’s deepfaked as Emperor Palpatine. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n[Audio clip of AI-generated video] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You didn’t finish burning the city to the ground in the first term. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Make sure you finish the job in your second term. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The only thing that can stop us is someone telling the truth. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As long as they don’t have any hope, the city is ours. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Spencer Pratt appears, depicted as a Jedi, and battles Darth Karen above the Hollywood sign. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[lightsaber sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMorgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is peak slopaganda.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You could argue that AI tools have, in some way, democratized the creation of propaganda. Anyone with access to a video generator and a taste for pop culture has the potential to make their message go viral. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slopaganda itself, and the AI tools used to create it, are morally neutral. Michal joked about how we \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">could\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> have more slopaganda about recycling, or being nice to each other. But instead, we’re increasingly seeing political candidates and government institutions use it to undermine opponents and steer the narrative. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s going to give a lot of power to people that have a lot of money to do this, that will be able to basically create the world in their own image. The second consequence of this, and I think this is maybe optimistic, is that people are going to turn away from the internet. I think that there’s a way in which AI content is kind of really taking over all the spaces on the internet that people cared about. And I think at some point you’re just gonna say, you know what, yeah, I have better things to do in my time. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMorgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are there any feasible interventions to stopping the slopageddon? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you were to look a little bit more to Europe, I think there’s some ideas about what this could look like. There’s the Digital Services Act, which is connected to the European Commission, and the AI Act. These are legal instruments meant to police basically Facebook and X and so on from stealing European citizens’ data. The tech companies hate them because they have real bite.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, Michal doesn’t see that happening in the U.S.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t think there’s gonna be any meaningful institutional interventions from the United States anytime soon\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California, for one, has tried to crack down. Back in 2024, Governor Newsom signed a series of laws that required more disclosure and transparency around political deepfakes, and required social media companies to remove the “deceptive” content before an election.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Here’s the twist: Slopaganda might actually be protected by the First Amendment — it could be considered satire or political speech. Long story short, Elon Musk sued the state, and now my X feed is full of AI Spencer Pratt doing deepfake Return of the Jedi.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Lightsaber sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zooming out, back to the war between the US and Iran, it’s clear that the White House slopaganda, reactive, disjointed, made to appeal to Boomers, is failing to reach a lot of its own citizens. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t think it’s working. I think it’s kind of cringey and, and clunky stuff but I think maybe they’re portraying themselves as, as you know, winning the war. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, without institutional change, what can individual people do to be a little more resilient to slopaganda? Not just in this war, but in any political setting? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Slopaganda, again, is neither good nor bad on its own, right? Just remember who is sending this stuff and why. Educate yourself a little bit about the larger context of what’s happening. There’s a history there, There are motivations that are hidden behind the cute videos that we may not know about.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We need to remember why we’re watching this content in the first place, and interrogate its purpose. What kind of reaction is it eliciting? What is it distracting you from? How did it come across your feed in the first place? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you get overwhelmed, well, Michal has one temporary solution. Log off! Touch grass! The slop is never ending but you can still give your brain a break from consuming it.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMichal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think we need more love in our life. I mean, seriously, just get away from the internet a little bit from social media and just kind of start, um, hanging out. With each other more, and then this stuff just doesn’t matter.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMorgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And with that, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you like these deep dives? Are you closing your tabs? Then don’t forget to rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! Maybe drop a comment too! And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.KQED.org/podcasts! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think there just aren’t enough professionals there anymore. Maybe they got rid of them with Project 2025. I don’t know. Maybe there is no more media wing of the White House.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The DOGE cuts hit deep.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The DOGE cuts. That’s why this stuff is clunky and sucks. These memes are not dank! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "The war in Iran has led to the emergence of \"slopaganda\" — where AI slop meets information warfare.",
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"title": "Iran Is Winning The Slopaganda War | KQED",
"description": "AI-generated Lego videos have become a tool of war. Since the U.S.-Israel war with Iran began in late February, increasingly elaborate videos featuring LEGO figures and catchy rap lyrics have been flooding our feeds. They're shareable, surprisingly high quality and they're deeply critical of the U.S. and Trump. They're also propaganda. Welcome to the age of "slopaganda" — where AI Slop meets information warfare. Michał Klincewicz, professor of computational cognitive science, joins Morgan to break down the rise of slopaganda, what it's doing to our information ecosystem and why the U.S. is losing the meme war.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI-generated LEGO videos have become a tool of war. Since the U.S.-Israel war with Iran began in late February, increasingly elaborate videos featuring LEGO figures and catchy rap lyrics have been flooding our feeds. They’re shareable, surprisingly high quality and they’re deeply critical of the U.S. and Trump. They’re also propaganda.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome to the age of “slopaganda” — where AI Slop meets information warfare.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Michał Klincewicz, assistant professor of computational cognitive science, joins Morgan to break down the rise of slopaganda, what it’s doing to our information ecosystem and why the U.S. is losing the meme war.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5115004196\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://sites.google.com/site/michalklincewicz/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Michał Klincewicz\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, assistant professor of computational cognitive science at Tilburg University\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://slopaganda-two.vercel.app/#paper\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slopaganda: The interaction between propaganda and generative AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Michal Klincewicz, Mark Alfano, and Amir Ebrahimi Fard, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Filosofiska Notiser \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://theconversation.com/slopaganda-wars-how-and-why-the-us-and-iran-are-flooding-the-zone-with-viral-ai-generated-noise-280024\">Slopaganda wars: how (and why) the US and Iran are flooding the zone with viral AI-generated noise\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Mark Alfano and Michal Klincewicz, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>The Conversation\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2026/4/17/vengeance-for-all-how-irans-lego-videos-won-narrative-war-against-trump\">‘Vengeance for all’: How Iran’s Lego videos won narrative war against Trump | US-Israel war on Iran News\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Alia Chughtai, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>Al Jazeera\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/culture/infinite-scroll/the-team-behind-a-pro-iran-lego-themed-viral-video-campaign\">The Team Behind a Pro-Iran, Lego-Themed Viral-Video Campaign\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Kyle Chayka, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>The New Yorker\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/youtube-removes-iran-linked-channel-producing-anti-trump-animation\">YouTube removes pro-Iran channel producing anti-Trump videos \u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Alex MacDonald, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Middle East Eye\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/dec/31/we-want-the-mullahs-gone-economic-crisis-sparks-biggest-protests-in-iran-since-2022\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘We want the mullahs gone’: economic crisis sparks biggest protests in Iran since 2022\u003c/span>\u003c/a> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Deepa Parent and William Christou, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Guardian \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Host Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? It would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! Send it to your friends…your frenemies…that one niche micro influencer you kind of have a parasocial relationship with! Maybe they’ll respond, I don’t know!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, let’s get to the show. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n[Audio clip from Explosive Media video] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I just looked him in the eye and told him what I saw. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wait a minute homie, I said Inshallah. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Little orange man, little orange man, it’s the straight of Iran.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Little orange man. Iran! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, let me try to explain what’s going on here. So this is an animated video, and it’s clearly AI. The setting is LEGO Pirates of the Caribbean — and it opens by zooming in on this Davy Jones-type character. You know, the cursed pirate with the tentacle beard? But this Davy Jones also looks a lot like President Donald Trump. Instead of a peg leg, he has a golf club. And he’s steering his ship directly through a LEGO gate labeled “Strait of Hormuz.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from Explosive Media video] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Little orange man, little orange man, get straight out of Hormuz, little orange man. Get out!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is one of dozens of incredibly catchy, viral videos from a small content studio called Explosive Media. All of their videos follow a similar format: LEGO characters, and taking shots at the Trump administration and the United States. Like, calling the president “the Twitter-finger king.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from Explosive Media video] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Twitter finger king, fake ring, cap master with the lies. Always tweeting great success while your whole damn squad cries.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Based on the style, tone, and topics covered, you might think this content is coming from a left-wing American studio. Or maybe a progressive media outlet.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not that different from the kind of stuff the Democratic party has posted to appeal to gen z voters.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there’s a consistent thread through every single video — they all revolve around the war between the US and Iran. And it’s because they’re coming directly \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">from\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Iran. That’s right, it’s all propaganda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wartime propaganda is nothing new. But take a look at the videos spreading across social media today … something feels different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from Explosive Media video] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Little orange man, little orange man, get straight out of Hormuz, little orange man. Get out!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome to the age of slopaganda. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a combination of “slop” as in AI slop and propaganda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guest Michal Klincewicz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> it’s out of the bottle. The genie is out of the bottle and it’s gonna be wrecking havoc for a while. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Michal Klincewicz. He’s a professor of computational cognitive science at Tilburg University in the Netherlands. He’s one of the leading experts on slopaganda. He actually co-authored a paper on this last year. And he said that the slopaganda that’s coming out of Iran today is very different from the propaganda of past wars. It’s more potent. It’s churned out faster. There’s a clear, consistent narrative that pulls viewers in and convinces them to keep watching.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slopaganda has gotten really popular, making it harder to discern what’s real, and what’s not. When our information ecosystem is flooded with catchy LEGO music videos, what is it distracting us from? What happens when public opinion can be so easily manipulated by AI slop? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is the slopagandapocalypse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slopageddon? Is that, is that better, slopageddon? Ooh!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I like slopageddon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. That’s better. You know, I just coined a term on your show, slopageddon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today’s deep dive is all about slopaganda: how it took over our feeds, what it’s doing to our brains, and why the US might be losing the meme war. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Plus, we’re going to get into how we might be able to stop Slopaggeddon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ready? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By now, you know this goes! Let’s open a new tab: What is slopaganda? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok let’s break this down. First: slop.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slop is kind of mid to low quality AI generated content,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">that is online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Michal again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So text, videos, images, anything of the sort \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI slop has been flooding the internet for years now, but more recently we’ve seen social media users embrace it, knowing it’s artificially generated, synthetic media. And that’s led to some slop content going viral. A few weeks ago we talked about an incredibly popular TikTok series called AI Fruit Love Island.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of Fruit Love Island]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome back to Fruit Love Island. Today, we’ve got a steamy challenge. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was basically Love Island, the reality TV dating show, but all of the contestants were sexy anthropomorphized fruit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of low-quality AI generated content has become the norm online. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there’s the second part of the word, propaganda\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> or content that’s designed to deliver some kind of political message, usually to persuade.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So affect beliefs, perceptions,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">or emotional states of the audience or a political goal in mind. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Propaganda is not always about boosting patriotism on the home front. Across history, countries have used propaganda on their opponents’ citizens, to sow distrust in leadership. Like, during the Vietnam War, there was Hanoi Hannah. She was a Vietnamese broadcaster who recorded English language messages, designed to demoralize Americans GIs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of Hanoi Hannah]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">GI your government has abandoned you . They lied to you, GI. You know you cannot win this war. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The US has done it too, and on a massive scale. In fact, the US has done this in Iran. Back in 1953, the CIA helped overthrow Iran’s democratically elected prime minister. They staged riots and planted fake stories in local news outlets to manipulate public opinion. It’s a tactic the US has repeatedly used over the last 70 years: sowing distrust, destabilizing leadership, and engineering a regime change in Syria, Indonesia, Poland, throughout Latin America. I mean, the list goes on and on. Propaganda plays a huge part in it. And when you add AI to the mix? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nMichal actually published a research paper about slopaganda last year — long before LEGO AI videos went viral. He’s known his co-authors for years — Mark Alfano, a philosopher who studies neural networks, and Amir Fard, a machine learning expert. Among themselves, they’ve talked about how propaganda has evolved with social media, algorithms, and bot farms. But then, in May of 2024, right as the US presidential election began heating up, they shared an experience that changed how they thought about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were all in Poland for a conference. Since it wasn’t too far from where they were staying, they decided to take a trip to Auschwitz. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I think that was a kind of a watershed moment for us because we connected the dots really very dramatically between what was happening and the way that things were talked about in the United States and what we were seeing.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The National Socialist Party of Germany had a propaganda wing. They used the radio, they used the newspapers, but they were delivering a message of disinformation about people that ended up dying there. And I think that for us, this caught fire. We talked about slopaganda right then and there. Eventually, this led up to writing a paper with Amir in November and December of 2024. We sort of channeled that rage and anger. That’s how it happened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the paper, the researchers detail the one-off deepfakes that went viral during the election: Kamala Harris saying something she never did, the AI generated images that made Taylor Swift look like she endorsed Trump, the voters who got calls from a voice that sounded exactly like then-President Joe Biden, encouraging them to stay home and not vote in the state primary.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n[Audio clip of Robocall sent to New Hampshire voters]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voting this Tuesday only enables the Republicans in their quest to elect Donald Trump again. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then last year, right after inauguration, President Trump himself posted a video and it wasn’t a deepfake. Michal said that was the tipping point that started the descent into slopageddon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b> \u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was a, I guess, a moment when Donald Trump during an interview or something said something about building a resort in Gaza city after the Israelis sort of move in, I guess. And they will build a resort, a Riviera on the coast of the Mediterranean and an AI video came out showing this and Benjamin Netanyahu and Trump sort of drinking margaritas poolside with Gaza Trump hotel in the background.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Donald Trump Gaza video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Donald’s coming to set you free, bringing the light for all to see. No more tunnels, no more fear. Trump Gaza is finally here.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was like the first one that clearly for us was emblematic of this. The first clear case of like, slopaganda as we envisioned it, I think is the Gaza video\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To be clear, this was a video posted by Donald Trump’s official account. The video starts with Gaza, demolished and reduced to rubble. Then, it’s transformed into a tourist destination. It’s gaudy and over the top, like if Vegas was on the beach. There’s a giant gold statue of President Trump, looming over everyone. There are market stands that sell golden effigies of Trump, and children carry golden balloons of Trump’s face. Elon Musk makes a few appearances, throwing cash at beachgoers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Donald Trump Gaza video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trump Gaza shining bright, golden future, a brand new light. Feast and dance, the deal is done. Trump Gaza number one.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s uncanny and it’s almost designed to not take seriously. Right? It’s a way of portraying something abhorrent in a way, something morally problematic, at least, if not despicable, um, through a joke,and it slips past, I think our moral defenses in a way, because we’re fascinated by that, right? Like just kind of watching the train wreck, the moral train wreck in that video, and we watch it to the end. Um, that’s a little bit like maybe reality TV or something.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a kind of thing that happens as you’re watching it. By the end, it’s somehow conceivable. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Trump administration was just the first. Slopaganda flooded elections in Europe, too. Russia’s propaganda machine dates back to the days of the Soviet Union — AI just supercharged it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of DW News report on AI Hungarian election ads]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the defining issues of our times, the use of artificial intelligence. And the risks that it could pose not only to all our jobs, but to democracy itself…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This year, during the Hungarian election for prime minister, the country’s social media feeds were overrun with fearmongering AI slop videos. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of DW News report on AI Hungarian election ads]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…a message he’s hammering home with the help of AI…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They claimed that Hungarians would be forcibly sent to war in Ukraine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of DW News report on AI Hungarian election ads]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The video ends with a warning that Brussels could make such a nightmare real…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Of course, none of it was real. The candidate behind those ads, the incumbent prime minister, has close ties to Vladimir Putin.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the same stuff that we would have seen from Russia. So, you know, disinformation campaigns about candidates, scandals, of corruption. Right? Narratives that are meant to like undermine, for example, the effort to put sanctions on Russia. All of these things are amplified with generative AI content so text, images, videos, and so on. And some of these are very effective or effective in that they’re like high quality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So why is slopaganda flooding our feeds? There’s no escape from it. It’s polluting pretty much every political conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But, in the U.S. specifically especially slopaganda from the White House. well, Michal said that it may have something to do with the ties between the US government and big tech companies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The long-term consequences of mixing corporate power and governance is very well known and studied around the world. It’s called fascism and a classic Italian Mussolini style fascism. That’s what they built in Italy and they kind of with a few tweaks, re-implemented in Germany. The rise of slopaganda or rise of like AI generated content has political consequences, even independently of that, because I think it gives a lot of power to a few people that can create the message. And it takes power away from the individuals that will be at the voting booth casting a vote. The person that controls the prompt, as we saw like with Grok or something, changes the conversation.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMorgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, but why can’t we look away from AI slop? What about it is so effective? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re going to get into that — after this break. But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Ok, more on slopaganda after the break. Stick around. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Let’s open a new tab: Why is slopaganda so effective?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve seen people refer to what’s currently happening between the U.S. And Iran as a meme war, and memes have been very potent vehicles of propaganda and disinformation. There’s a long documented history of memes being weaponized in politics and conflict. What makes this current iteration with slopaganda different? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/strong>It’s generated quickly, the quality is much higher. It’s more persuasive, it’s more complex. It has many layers: an audio one, a visual one, a narrative one, that are done extremely professionally. So all of that has to do with the fact that it’s generated by AI actually. So these tools enable this kind of fast turnaround, high quality stuff to come out. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMorgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Explosive Media, the digital content studio behind a lot of LEGO slopaganda, started posting animated political videos on YouTube last year. They had an anti-American theme, but didn’t really catch on. A few months ago, right around the first US-Israeli strikes on Iran, Explosive Media began posting LEGO-themed videos. And they blew up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the earlier videos had no dialogue, just intense music. It showed scenes of people who’ve been oppressed by the American government. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Native American riders on horses, dressed in traditional regalia, Japanese villagers gathered in front of a photo of Hiroshima after the atomic bomb, Palestinians in Gaza, West Africans who were chained and subjected to slavery and they’re all LEGOs. They take turns sending missiles to the White House, the Statue of Liberty, and the Titanic? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They gather and cheer, and text appears that says, “One Vengeance For All.” \u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That got some attention, but only went so far. Then Explosive Media added rapping on top of the LEGO videos … and suddenly, they’d cracked the code. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from Explosive Media video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You said you aint no pedophile, but bitch, you are. Yelling worldwide for the Epstein scar. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Iranian videos are using the language of the contemporary dialogue about colonialism, about imperialism about, uh, the Epstein class.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clips from Explosive Media video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sacred defense, we protecting the soil, while you sacrifice soldiers to pay for your spoil. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We see everything, every secret, every dirty Epstein link you hide \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Your government is run by pedophiles, they ordered you to die for Israel. They lied to you all. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All of these things are the kinds of words or the kinds of concepts that we can hear being thrown around by people in the US that comment on current affairs. This is what Iran is doing. They’re not presenting their propaganda or their message using the language of, say, Shia Islam or the Iran-Iraqi war or any of these that really matter to the old guard. Of the Iranian revolution. This stuff is new, it’s fresh, it hit, and it’s kind of capturing our attention here as opposed to the attention of the Iranians there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The LEGO music videos are so effective that it’s inspiring similar ones, from people in other countries, who also feel wronged by the US.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Earlier this month, the US announced additional sanctions on Cuba, which has already been devastated by the American-imposed fuel blockade.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Days after that announcement, an X user, based in Havana, posted this video: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of AI video from Cuba]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Escucha el rugido que Baja del Lomerío Aquí no hay miedo ni rastro de escalofrío Pretenden asfixiar la sabia de esta tierra con garras de imperio y tambores de guerra…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The translation – \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">listen to the roar descending from the hills. Here, there is no fear, nor a trace of a shiver. They seek to suffocate the sap of this land with claws of empire and war drums.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This video’s got it all. LEGO-fied depictions of Havana’s colorful cityscape, the idyllic Caribbean beaches, the vibrant tobacco farms wrapped up with a patriotic message about defending Cuba from an American invasion and obviously, set to a very catchy beat.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a trend now. Criticizing the US in any way? Do it with LEGO! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The White House has also been posting slopaganda to its various official channels. Though the American version is, well … just listen to this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from White House Strike video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here comes the heat from the USA. And boom! Up and down. What a strike. [cheering]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, so that video, again, posted by\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the White House, starts with an ESPN clip of real life bowling champion Pete Weber preparing for his legendary winning strike. Then it cuts to a bunch of animated bowling pins carrying guns and a sign that says “We won’t stop making nuclear weapons.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Lynyrd Skynyrd’s Free Bird playing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re in a desert. They’re marching. And yes, that is Lynyrd Skynyrd’s \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Free Bird\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> that you’re hearing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Suddenly, they’re in a bowling alley, getting into formation … and then a bowling ball emblazoned with American stars and stripes comes hurtling toward them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The pins come tumbling down, and a fighter jet comes flying out of the bowling ball. And as the beat picks up, the video cuts to real footage of American airstrikes on Iran. Fade to black. And then a title card that says “ The White House.” In case you forgot who made the video.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMichal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re not really high quality stuff. This is kind of their memes or content for made by, I think, boomers for boomers, essentially. And I think the LEGO videos from Iran are made by millennials for the world. And the White House is using the kind of language and conceptual tools that may have been effective 30 years ago. The messages are kind of mixed. They don’t form a coherent narrative the Iranian stuff on the other hand is very coherent and there is a way in which it’s presenting a narrative from one video to the next. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from Explosive Media video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Gulf is our hood, and we holdin’ the key, Get back on your phone, you, get no pass for free! World is askin’ if the gate is open? Yes or nah? I just smile at ’em…”I said Inshallah!” \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s almost as if these things were episodes that come out every day.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMorgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A spokesperson for Explosive Media told Al Jazeera that there are ten people who work on their videos. It’s a Gen Z studio — all of them are between 19 and 25. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMichal Klincewicz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would speculate a large team of people that know what they’re doing, have a very keen sense of both the media landscape in the United States and in the world, but also of the themes. So I would think this is probably the tip of an iceberg of some kind of a massive media and propaganda operation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The studio claims to be independent, but has admitted that their clientele does include the Iranian state. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it shows in how the slopaganda videos are used. They’re used to really undermine the war effort in the United States and to, I think, get Americans and other people around the world on their side.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Until recently, a lot of AI generated media has been designed to intentionally dupe people, the deepfaked call of Biden’s voice, telling voters to stay home, the videos of Ukrainian soldiers, appearing to surrender on the front lines.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the Iranian LEGO videos are so obviously AI slop. No one thinks the LEGO guy in the Little Orange Man video is \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">actually \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trump. No one is getting duped into believing that’s really him, dressed in a pirate get up and getting shipwrecked in Iran. So why is this propaganda still so effective? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Perhaps it’s so effective because it appears not to be real. These are not deep fakes. No one is pretending that this is real, that we know it’s AI generated, that kind of sucks you in. And there’s some kind of uncanniness about it. We’re kind of like, wait, what? And that moment I think is the first hook. There’s probably different videos, different styles of slopaganda for different audiences. That’s also one of its powers, that it’s so easy to make a customized version of the same message for a specific audience. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMorgan Sung : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In various interviews, a spokesperson for Explosive Media who goes by “Mr. Explosive” explained some of the team’s processes. He’s talked about how poetry is a pillar of Persian history and culture, so the team writes the rap lyrics themselves. Then, they use AI to Americanize the songs and generate the singing voices.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s clear that they have their fingers on the pulse of American pop culture. The Pirates of the Caribbean, for one, is one of Disney’s most successful franchises. It’s something that’s immediately recognizable and familiar to a lot of Americans. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Explosive Media video] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Listen … Lost in our fog, you call us the pirates? Man, check the mirror, dawg, you’re the one that’s biased, Vultures on the water, fiending for the black gold, Straight freeloaders, doing what you’re told! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these references are the sorts of things you may hear from more progressive liberal parts of our country about the problems of say, you know, wealth inequality or abuse of power, corruption by the Trump administration. This is where this stuff is coming from. So they’re kind of using the message that actually would resonate with people that are already in some ways uncomfortable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, this video, which is an outlier for Explosive Media. Instead of a story about LEGO pirate Trump bumbling his way through the strait of Hormuz, this one starts with an overhead shot of Tehran. A LEGO version, of course. A LEGO figurine smiles at the audience and holds out his arms to the viewer, like he’s welcoming us in for a hug. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Explosive Media video] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We do not hate you, people of the West. We have watched from across the ocean, from behind their walls, and what we see is a people who deserve better than what rules them.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The video lays out all these grievances with the American government and mainstream media. These are sentiments that resonate with a lot of Americans: concerns over rising costs, opposition to another war, feeling disempowered by the current political system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Explosive Media video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The billionaire who funds the law then writes the law himself, the pharmaceutical machine that keeps you sick for profit and wealth. The school that teaches history with chapters torn away. So you never ask the question, who made it this way? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMorgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The previous videos from Explosive Media have always attacked Trump or members of his cabinet. And for the most part, left the American people out of it. This video directly addresses Americans. Instead of taking personal shots at specific leaders, it’s a critique of the systemic failures of American society at large. It’s almost a show of solidarity.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Explosive Media video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We are not your enemies. We’re prisoners of the same cause. We love Americans. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s convincing. It’s supposed to be. This is the kind of emotional appeal that makes propaganda especially effective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, emotions are the first thing that we may have when we see a message. And if they’re negative emotions, in particular things like fear or anxiety or resentment, whatever it is that we experience or we believe while we have these emotional states, we’re more likely to remember. There’s a lot of research about this and the negativity bias in memory is pretty prominent and once it’s in there, it doesn’t get out. So you form that negative association with a politician or some kind of a celebrity, it’s gonna be very hard for you to get rid of it moving forward. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When there’s so much noise, it’s hard to pick out what’s real and what’s not. There’s only so much information that a human being can consume and process every day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What breaks through the noise and captures our attention tends to be content that’s emotionally alarming. It triggers our brain’s emotional center before we can process that information rationally. And studies have shown that people remember negative information better … which can ultimately influence our beliefs and reasoning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Between a dry news article and a catchy LEGO video — which one are you going to remember next week? Next month? Next election cycle? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s important to note that these videos are a very effective distraction. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All that stuff is distracting us from the nature of the Iranian regime that literally in January, machine gunned like tens of thousands of its own people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the end of last year, amid Iran’s worsening economic crisis, shop keepers and university students took to the streets in protest of the country’s Islamic leadership. A week later, demonstrations erupted across the country, calling for an end to the religious government, and demanding a secular democracy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Iranian authorities crushed the protests with brutal force. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from Tehran eyewitness protest footage]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re shooting us! They’re shooting us! This government is shooting people.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Human rights groups say more than 7,000 people were killed during the protests, with tens of thousands more still unaccounted for.Doctors in Iran estimate that the death toll could be over 30,000.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Two things can be true. The LEGO slopaganda videos coming out of Iran make points about the US that a lot of Americans might agree with about its leadership, and how it’s failing its own people while also taking the spotlight off of Iran’s own government. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even if you know that the LEGO videos are fake and AI, if they’re hijacking your attention, drowning out other content online then the slopaganda is doing what it’s supposed to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That changes how we consume information, whether we care about truth at all. And that’s very bad for a democracy, actually, if you have a bunch of people that don’t care about what is true and are used to not taking what people say seriously. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what happens when LEGO rap overshadows actual news? When we can’t look away from an AI generated diss track? When a whole population can be so easily distracted? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slopaggedon. Michal and his co-authors call it the slopaganda shit storm. For our next tab, we’ll go with my favorite: slopagandapocalypse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open one more tab: How to survive the slopagandapocalypse \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Michal said it’s not really a question of stopping the slopaganda doomsday scenario — we’re already living it. And slopaganda is, relatively speaking, so new. We’re in uncharted waters here, and we don’t have solid research on the effects that slopaganda will have on society and democracy down the road. But Michal has a few hunches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One real possible consequence of this is that slopaganda is going to be here for, to stay And it will be a tool in the toolbox of every authoritarian regime in the world, just as like batons and riot police have been.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So will this be, uh, it will just be AI generated, slop is gonna be yet another way to bamboozle, distract people around the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slopaganda has already wormed its way into LA’s mayoral race, with former reality TV star and current candidate Spencer Pratt reposting AI-generated videos of his opponent. Like this Star Wars-themed one, where incumbent LA mayor Karen Bass, portrayed as Darth Vader, schemes with California Governor Gavin Newsom, who’s deepfaked as Emperor Palpatine. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n[Audio clip of AI-generated video] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You didn’t finish burning the city to the ground in the first term. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Make sure you finish the job in your second term. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The only thing that can stop us is someone telling the truth. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As long as they don’t have any hope, the city is ours. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Spencer Pratt appears, depicted as a Jedi, and battles Darth Karen above the Hollywood sign. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[lightsaber sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMorgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is peak slopaganda.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You could argue that AI tools have, in some way, democratized the creation of propaganda. Anyone with access to a video generator and a taste for pop culture has the potential to make their message go viral. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slopaganda itself, and the AI tools used to create it, are morally neutral. Michal joked about how we \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">could\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> have more slopaganda about recycling, or being nice to each other. But instead, we’re increasingly seeing political candidates and government institutions use it to undermine opponents and steer the narrative. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s going to give a lot of power to people that have a lot of money to do this, that will be able to basically create the world in their own image. The second consequence of this, and I think this is maybe optimistic, is that people are going to turn away from the internet. I think that there’s a way in which AI content is kind of really taking over all the spaces on the internet that people cared about. And I think at some point you’re just gonna say, you know what, yeah, I have better things to do in my time. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMorgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are there any feasible interventions to stopping the slopageddon? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you were to look a little bit more to Europe, I think there’s some ideas about what this could look like. There’s the Digital Services Act, which is connected to the European Commission, and the AI Act. These are legal instruments meant to police basically Facebook and X and so on from stealing European citizens’ data. The tech companies hate them because they have real bite.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, Michal doesn’t see that happening in the U.S.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t think there’s gonna be any meaningful institutional interventions from the United States anytime soon\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California, for one, has tried to crack down. Back in 2024, Governor Newsom signed a series of laws that required more disclosure and transparency around political deepfakes, and required social media companies to remove the “deceptive” content before an election.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Here’s the twist: Slopaganda might actually be protected by the First Amendment — it could be considered satire or political speech. Long story short, Elon Musk sued the state, and now my X feed is full of AI Spencer Pratt doing deepfake Return of the Jedi.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Lightsaber sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zooming out, back to the war between the US and Iran, it’s clear that the White House slopaganda, reactive, disjointed, made to appeal to Boomers, is failing to reach a lot of its own citizens. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t think it’s working. I think it’s kind of cringey and, and clunky stuff but I think maybe they’re portraying themselves as, as you know, winning the war. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, without institutional change, what can individual people do to be a little more resilient to slopaganda? Not just in this war, but in any political setting? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Slopaganda, again, is neither good nor bad on its own, right? Just remember who is sending this stuff and why. Educate yourself a little bit about the larger context of what’s happening. There’s a history there, There are motivations that are hidden behind the cute videos that we may not know about.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We need to remember why we’re watching this content in the first place, and interrogate its purpose. What kind of reaction is it eliciting? What is it distracting you from? How did it come across your feed in the first place? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you get overwhelmed, well, Michal has one temporary solution. Log off! Touch grass! The slop is never ending but you can still give your brain a break from consuming it.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMichal Klincewicz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think we need more love in our life. I mean, seriously, just get away from the internet a little bit from social media and just kind of start, um, hanging out. With each other more, and then this stuff just doesn’t matter.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMorgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And with that, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you like these deep dives? Are you closing your tabs? Then don’t forget to rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! Maybe drop a comment too! And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.KQED.org/podcasts! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think there just aren’t enough professionals there anymore. Maybe they got rid of them with Project 2025. I don’t know. Maybe there is no more media wing of the White House.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The DOGE cuts hit deep.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michal Klincewicz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The DOGE cuts. That’s why this stuff is clunky and sucks. These memes are not dank! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "how-an-onlyfans-model-and-a-cosplayer-are-fighting-nonconsensual-deepfake-porn",
"title": "How an OnlyFans Model and a Cosplayer Are Fighting Nonconsensual Deepfake Porn",
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"headTitle": "How an OnlyFans Model and a Cosplayer Are Fighting Nonconsensual Deepfake Porn | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">diving into the world of nonconsensual deepfake porn and why this problem reaches far beyond influencers and sex workers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When users on X started asking Grok to generate explicit images of real women and girls without their consent, Twitch streamer and OnlyFans creator Morgpie watched the harassment spiral in real time. Cosplayer and software engineer Zander Small saw firsthand how nonconsensual images affected his girlfriend, a SFW creator, and her friends. The two decided to team up to build tools that help creators detect leaks, remove deepfakes, and reclaim control over their images online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Note:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This episode contains mentions of gender-based violence and nonconsensual intimate imagery, which may be triggering for some listeners. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5643980688\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/bigguswombus/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgpie\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, OnlyFans creator and cofounder of Fanlock\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/zander_smalls/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander Small\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cb>, \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">content creator and cofounder of Fanlock\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.dexerto.com/twitch/influencers-take-on-ai-deepfakes-with-new-creator-protection-agency-3324719/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Influencers take on AI deepfakes with their own creator protection agency\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Virginia Glaze, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dextero\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/musks-ai-chatbot-grok-xai-making-sexual-deepfakes-imagine-rcna265855\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Musk’s Grok AI chatbot is still making sexual deepfakes, despite X’s promise to stop it\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — David Ingram, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NBC News\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/deepfake-nudify-schools-global-crisis/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Deepfake Nudes Crisis in Schools Is Much Worse Than You Thought\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Matt Burgess, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WIRED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://19thnews.org/2025/05/take-it-down-act-signing-explicit-images\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Take It Down Act: How to use it to remove revenge porn\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jasmine Mithani, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The 19th\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://rainn.org/rainns-recommendations-for-legislators/image-based-sexual-abuse-laws-combat-nonconsensual-ai-deepfakes/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Image-Based Sexual Abuse Laws: Combat Nonconsensual AI Deepfakes\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">RAINN\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://rainn.org/get-informed/issues/ai-tech-enabled-sexual-abuse/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI & Tech-Enabled Sexual Abuse: Risk & Prevention\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">RAINN\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://deepstrike.io/blog/deepfake-statistics-2025\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Deepfake Statistics 2025: AI Fraud Data & Trends\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Mohammed Khalil, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DeepStrike\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you closing your tabs? You can be honest, this is a safe space. If you’re a fan of Close All Tabs and you want more of it, then please rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends about us. It would be such a huge help to get the word out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s get to the show. Just a note, this episode contains mentions of gender-based violence and non-consensual intimate imagery, which may be triggering for some listeners.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know Grok? It’s the AI chatbot integrated with X, the social media app formerly known as Twitter and now owned by Elon Musk. Well, since late last year, Grok has been embroiled in an undressing scandal, generating sexually explicit images of people without their consent. The majority of targets were women. Some were minors, young girls. For a few weeks, it was a pretty disgusting widespread trend. When women or even teenage girls posted fully clothed photos of themselves on X, other users would comment and tag Grok, asking it to ‘put her in a bikini’ or ‘take off her top.’ The chatbot would publicly respond with a generated lewd or completely naked image of the subject. Some users went even further, asking Grok to add blood and bruises, prompting the chatbot to generate graphic, sexually violent images of these women.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh man, it was very much like I was waking up every day and I didn’t want to post.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Morgpie, a Twitch streamer and OnlyFans creator. People who know her IRL call her Morgan. She’s been a porn actress for years, and as someone who makes sexually explicit content, she’s used to creeps harassing her with her own nudes. But the Grok and dressing trend really unsettled her. It was the worst in January.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Being looped in with something that is so violating, and like you said, something that’s even affecting minors is just disgusting. Every day I was going into my comments and just like hiding replies and blocking because I’m like, I’m not going to let you guys just generate these images of me that I did not consent to, especially if it’s being associated with basically creating child pornography on Twitter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was non-consensual, intimate imagery, more commonly known as deep fake porn. A deep fake is content that has been generated or manipulated by AI to imitate someone else. Zander Small, another content creator and a friend of Morgan’s, says that the proliferation of AI tools has started to seriously affect content creators, regardless of whether or not they make adult content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Deep fakes can be anything from deep fake explicit imagery with like, a creator doing something or nude content that they didn’t consent to. Or it could be stuff as simple as like, an audio deep fake where a creator is saying something that they don’t consent too, which might have repercussions of them being canceled or stuff that they just obviously wouldn’t consent to saying.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan hasn’t had to deal with deep fake porn of herself as much. After years of being in this industry, she’s developed thick skin. She’s mostly dealt with leaks, or explicit content that she posted behind a paywall that was illegally downloaded and posted elsewhere, without her consent. But the Grok trend is just the tip of the iceberg. Non-consensual deep fake-porn has exploded over the last few years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that for a lot of people, the lack of consent is very attractive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is an issue that overwhelmingly affects women, and these circles are not as fringe as you might think. An annual report last year by the cybersecurity firm DeepStrike found that roughly 97% of all deepfakes online fall under non-consensual intimate imagery, and that 99 to 100% of victims of deepfake pornography are women. Here’s Zander again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it is either fans, if you want to call them that, or just creeps on the internet, wanting to see more out of a creator than they consented to. I know it affects a lot of SFW creators.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SFW, or Safe for Work. They don’t show nudity or make sexually explicit content. While NSFW, not Safer work, means adult content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, you know, and I guess from that, you know, if a creator isn’t consenting to do more explicit content, then, you know, these, uh, I guess perpetrators, creeps, whatever you want to call them, you know, take into their hands to do it themselves. And it’s incredibly easy to deep fake content and, you know, as models get better and better and they get quicker and quicker, it doesn’t really require as much of sophisticated technology to run these models.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some of the mainstream models, ChatGPT, Gemini, Claude, have guardrails that are supposed to prevent them from generating deep fake porn. In January, X announced that it implemented technological measures to prevent Grok from modifying images of real people in revealing clothing. But there are ways to get around these guardraills. Just last month, NBC News reported that Grok is still generating deep-fake porn of real women. And like Zander said, there are so many other models out there that just don’t have these guardrails in the first place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander hasn’t had to deal with deep fake porn of himself, but he’s seen how much it’s affected people he’s close to, other safer work creators who don’t make explicit content. And Morgan, coming from the porn industry, has seen how this issue affects her fellow adult content creators.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So late last year, they teamed up to come up with a solution for other creators. Today, we’re diving into the seedy reality of non-consensual deepfake porn, when it got so bad, why it’s so hard to stop, and how two Gen Z content creators are trying to tackle it. Ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open our first tab: the reality of non-consensual deep fake porn. Morgan is an award-winning porn creator. Literally, she has multiple Pornhub awards. And when she started years ago, the internet was very different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s very interesting because when I first started, the climate was very much like, if you opened up Twitter, you would see tweets that are like, ‘sex work is real work.’ Of course, this was kind of around the time when OnlyFans was only just emerging barely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the world of adult content, there was before OnlyFans, and then there’s after OnlyFans. The platform completely changed the game, lowering the barrier of entry for new creators and giving them new options to monetize their content. Morgan said that before OnlyFans blew up, the only way to make a living as an independent porn creator was to land on the front page of Pornhub, or actresses had to break into the industry by being part of studio productions where they didn’t have as much autonomy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s very interesting the shift between whenever porn was basically widely available, you didn’t really have to pay much for it. When I first started, I was uploading to Pornhub, and that was full length, full scenes that you could see for free at any time. Whereas now, the climate has shifted a lot to where creators like myself have a lot more control. So we’re able to, you know, use OnlyFans as a platform where we are more connected with our audience and that is actually the main pull. Now we’re in this age where these models can kind of take a bit of that control back. They can control what content they make, how much they sell it for. And I think that that plays so much into like the conversation about deepfakes where it’s about control. It’s all about consent. And then with deepfakes, you can make anybody do anything. So you have the control over this other person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since joining OnlyFans, Morgan and other adult creators have dealt with the same problem: leaks. They consent to paying subscribers accessing certain premium content that’s been posted behind a paywall. Then some unscrupulous subscriber downloads it and posts it publicly without their permission for the rest of the world to see. It was a constant source of frustration for Morgan.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then about a year and a half ago, Morgan noticed the deep fakes. Her friends told her about how they stumbled across videos of themselves online, but it wasn’t really them. Someone had taken explicit content from behind their paywalls and modified it, morphing them into these scenarios that the creators never wanted to be in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, it all stems back to control. It’s like, ‘oh, you did this thing that I didn’t like. Well, look at this control I have over your image. I’m going to use that against you.’.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think some detractors would say, like, ‘oh, well, if you make explicit content, why does deep fake porn bother you? Or why do your leaks bother you?’ What would you say to them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it’s it’s all about consent. That’s like saying, ‘oh, because you make porn, if I see you on the street, I can sexually assault you.’ You know, it’s like, consent is a very real thing. And there’s a big difference between me in the comfort of my own home within my own boundaries, producing content that I enjoy, and somebody else taking these things and making content that I didn’t consent to be in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not just Morgan and her fellow porn actresses dealing with this. Women who don’t make explicit content are also subjected to this harassment. One of the most well-known cases of this was when Atrioc, a Twitch streamer, was live. During his stream, he showed his open tabs for a split second, and one of them included deep fake porn of his own friends and streaming colleagues. He was caught buying this content. QTCinderella, another streamer was one of Atriok’s close friends. She was also a victim of the deep fake porn he bought.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip of QTCinderella]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Atrioc for showing it to thousands of people, the people DMing me pictures of myself from that website, f*ck you all!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pokimane is like a great example of this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pokimane is another Twitch streamer who was also a victim of atriox deep fake porn purchases. She does not make explicit adult content, but as a woman existing online, she deals with harassment constantly. Like, here she is reading comments from her audience.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of Pokimane]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yo yo yo, let’s see some ass. This ain’t a club fam, this is just my Twitch chat.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are so many clips of her literally just getting up and standing up out of her chair and that’ll get clipped and posted all over Twitter. And all of Twitter is like, ‘look at what she’s doing. She’s gooner baiting!’.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Goonerbait started as a term to describe video games or anime that aren’t pornographic but contain a lot of sexual imagery like jiggle physics and very scantily clad female characters. It’s media designed to appeal to gooners. Gooners are porn addicts. And now, internet randos love to accuse real-life women of gooner baiting, mainly female streamers like Pokimane.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘She’s, you know, performing for her male audience.’ And it’s like, well, is she really doing anything? She kind of just got up and walked out of the room, but they’re like, ‘oh, her pants are a little too tight.’ So it’s, like, I think this idea of a woman that’s kind of, just not really even doing anything, a lot of people love to just over-sexualize.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In some online circles, there is the sentiment that women like Morgan deserve to be deepfaked because they already make porn, and that women, like Pokimane, also deserve to deepfake because they’re somehow gooner baiting. It even affects people who don’t post online. Non-consensual deepfakes are rampant in schools. A Wired investigation last month found that high school boys have targeted their fellow classmates by spreading fake, generated nudes of them. These are teenage girls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, the thing is, it’s not going to stop with sex workers. As much as the sentiment these days is very anti-sex work, like, ‘oh, if you make this content, you’re kind of putting yourself up to be distributed in this way.’ But the thing it is, is it’s 100% a slippery slope and it’s going to keep going into Twitch streamers who are known and even just normal people. There’s nothing stopping anybody from pulling up somebody’s Facebook profile, just a normal person who doesn’t produce any content whatsoever, and making explicit deep fakes of them and distributing them. And that can be used as blackmail. The possibilities there are quite literally endless in terms of the harm that they could cause for everybody.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve talked about spending so much money on deepfake takedowns, but how did you initially try to tackle this problem of deepfakes and leaked content?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was going in every single week and I was Googling my name and I was going on like Twitter, Reddit, all these other sites, just like searching for my name, um, and seeing pages and pages and pages of all this leaked content that would come up. And back then I was paying over a thousand dollars a month on these takedowns, but I would still have to go in and manually report a lot of stuff. You shouldn’t really have to go in and look at your own leaks and your own deep fakes, which is just awful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan was at her wits end. And then, late last year, she saw that Zander was working on a project that may be able to solve her problem. And she wanted to help. We’ll hear Zander’s story after the break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. Okay, back to the story after the break. Stick around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Now, let’s open that new tab: What is Fanlock?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander had started out as a Minecraft YouTuber back in high school. It was a fun thing he did on the side before he went to college to study software engineering. He was on his high school robotics team and loved tinkering and fixing things. A few years ago, during his sophomore year, he started going to anime conventions with his friends. Here’s the thing, Zander’s really tall. He’s 6’8″. His friend pointed out that he could carve out a real niche as a comically tall cosplayer. He pushed Zander to start posting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was like ‘Bro, it’s gonna be like viral because like, oh my gosh, why is a Gojo cosplayer like as tall as like LeBron James?’ So I did it and it did pretty good. And I guess it just snowballed from there and I just haven’t stopped since.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">About six months after he went viral as comically tall Gojo, he started getting brand deals from anime companies. He gained hundreds of thousands of followers. He flew all over the country, attending cons and meetups. He even hosted a few lookalike competitions. There’s a picture of the Hatsune Miku lookalite competition he hosted. A gaggle of cosplayers in turquoise wigs, and then Zander, towering above the crowd in his own turquois getup. Of course, he was still in school juggling a burgeoning full-time career as a content creator while also attending classes and doing homework and studying for exams.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He considered dropping out, but his parents really, really wanted him to stay in school. They weren’t thrilled at the idea of their son leaving an engineering degree to pursue anime content. So he stuck it out, and last year, while finishing up his last semester of school, He stumbled across this deep fake problem. It struck a very personal chord.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So about a month before I graduated, my girlfriend, who’s an SFW creator, had a huge deep fake problem. Um, you know, there’s accounts popping up on like Threads or Instagram that either use her likeness or just full on non-consensual porn, uh, deep fakes of her, which is super mentally taxing, uh on her, you know, as an SF W creator. You know, she didn’t consent to being in those positions or having these account to DM her fans, like, ‘Hey, send me $400 and we’ll go on a date,’ type of just scam content. So it was from there that I was like, let me see what’s up and see if I can help you. So that’s when I really took a deep dive into DMCA, non-consensual imagery and depending on the platform it’s on what you can do about that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DMCA, as in the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. It’s copyright law for internet content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I was able to get a lot of her stuff down, which was great. Uh, but then at that point it was like, you know, what are the other players in the space doing about this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What he found were takedown tools that were very expensive and not that effective. While creator management firms and talent agencies have in-house services for this, they’re inaccessible to smaller creators. After Zander helped his girlfriend, her friends reached out to him. They had the same problem. And then their friends reached out. And all of this coincided with his post-graduation job search. He planned to at least try to use his degree. But the job market for entry-level software engineers was rough.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think by the third final round interview at like some fang company where they rejected me after four weeks and five interviews, I was just so fed up. I was like, you know what, screw this. I’m gonna just do this myself. I’ma make my own company. So, and at that time, you it’s like the overlap of like, oh, I figured out how to do this. I could help more creators like this and really solve a real problem.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, he started working on it, a tool for creators that would scan the internet for leaked and deepfaked content and automatically send DMCA takedown requests. And if the sites didn’t comply, this tool would have to find other ways to force a takedow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander knew how traumatic it was for his girlfriend and her friends to be constantly confronted with non-consensual deepfake porn. So, he wanted this tool to take down content automatically, without creators having to see it. And the tool also had to catch the non-consensual deepfakes before they spread to other platforms. But he knew he couldn’t do it alone. He needed the perspective of other creators for it to really work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I pretty much just posted on my close friends at some point, like, hey, I’m thinking about doing this as like an actual like business or something like that. If anyone will be down to just test it out for free and see how good like my, you know, scanning architecture and stuff like that is, let me know. And Morgan actually swiped up on the story and was like, hey, that actually sounds pretty neat. I’d be down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan and Zander had met at TwitchCon a while back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And we hopped on a call and I was like, ‘would you be down to like do this with me?’ Cause like, I think it’d be pretty sick if we had like two creators doing it that know the problem. You know, Morgan knows firsthand, like the adult space, but as well as like a firsthand account of like leaks and deep fakes and you know, where they live and stuff like that. And you know I guess from there, it just was one of those things where it was like I think this could be a real player in the space and I’m really passionate about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan, what was it like for you to see that story?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve struggled with this stuff for so long. I know so many people that I could tap in on and get their feedback. My scope in this space is so wide because I’ve had my eggs in so many baskets online And that I knew that I would be able to bring a good perspective and good input.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they managed to raise $200,000, and with that, Morgan and Zander launched Fanlock earlier this year. Zander handles the technical side, making sure Fanlock works, and Morgan handles the creator side, managing outreach to other creators.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I guess I get to apply that degree that I was considering dropping out to do content for. And it’s, I guess like a full 360, you know, everyone that was like, you should stay in school and finish it out. I guess it came back to be useful because now I can apply it to helping my friends and other people in the space with this really real problem that they have.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This solution isn’t that straightforward though. That’s a new tab: Why is it so hard to take down deepfakes?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In May last year, President Trump signed the Take It Down Act, a landmark law that criminalizes the publication of non-consensual intimate imagery, including digital forgeries, aka deep fake porn. It’s one of Congress’s first bipartisan actions to tackle AI-generated content. The law also requires online platforms to implement a removal request system and to take down deep fake porn within 48 hours of a request.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of these sites thankfully already had like forms or different reporting mechanisms to report deepfakes, but I think with this act itself, it’s a really good step in the right direction to combat non-consensual deepfake and, you know, props to the government for doing something right for once and actually passing this really quickly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the Take It Down Act is only enforceable under U.S. jurisdiction, although the EU also has similar laws. But a lot of these sites are based outside of these places, like in Russia.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so for like Russia and Chinese sites, it gets a lot harder because they don’t have any need to comply either like deep fake penalties or DMCA because it’s specifically like USA, EU jurisdiction typically. And that makes it a lot hard to get content down off those sites if it’s even possible at all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a few things you can do for these sites. There’s been some sites I know firsthand that they use, let’s say, a USA-based company for their notification system. We’re able to submit basically a DMCA to those companies, basically being like, hey, just so you know, you’re aiding in copyright infringement by working with this client. If we were to take it a step further, we could always issue a DMC subpoena to them if they use Google Analytics, for example, to straight to Google. And that would help us get more information about… The actual emails of the site, who this person actually is. So if they’re in the EU or USA, we can take those legal routes. Obviously there’s sites I know that are pretty much, they’re built from the ground up for piracy and it’s pretty much impossible to get those stuff down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the more difficult aspects of tackling deepfakes is catching them before Google indexes them, basically, storing web pages in its own database so they appear in search results. Because when something appears in search results, it spreads like wildfire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Google updated its search functions a few years ago to identify deepfakes and prevent them from appearing at the top of search results, but there are still deepfakess that slip through the cracks. Zander said that Fanlock keeps tabs on specific sites that have histories of hosting non-consensual deepfakes. They scan them and send takedown demands, before they hit Google search results.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, no one wants their family Googling them or something and they see deep fakes of them all over Google Images.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know Fanlock also relies on a lot of facial recognition technology to identify leaked content and deepfakes. Obviously, this technology is very controversial. It’s often used in law enforcement and has a lot connections to surveillance. But what are your thoughts on this use of facial-recognition technology?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, obviously, if a creator signs up for our platform and we’re doing it in a consensual manner, I think that’s great. I obviously am big anti-surveillance, but I think the the key word at the end of the day is just consent, which is like the fundamental problem that I think these creators are having. And if they’re consenting to a service to take down stuff that was made non-consensually, I think, that’s why our creators are okay with it. And I think there’s a big differentiation between that and then, you know, some tech company scanning my face to see if I’m a criminal or something like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to talk about some of the technical challenges that still exist. You mentioned trying to build a Telegram scanner right now. A lot of non-consensual deep fake porn is passed around in closed channels on Discord or group chats or Telegram. Do either of you have any experience with this happening? Like, what is the approach here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When we were building FanLock, I was like, Telegram is, like, the final boss of piracy. I really want to build a solution that while we can’t scan a hundred percent of Telegram, I want to build the absolute most, like I guess comprehensive Telegram scanner we can based on like what’s publicly available and what providers there are to us. So for Telegram, typically for like private groups and stuff like that, you’re able to join them if you have like a join link, which we’ve kind of gotten from people being like, ‘hey, I got leaks here, join my channel.’ And after we get the join link we’re able to figure out where copyrighted content is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We already do have our Telegram scanner up. You know, we have about 11 million channels, you know, from our own services, but also third party providers that we use that have kind of indexed Telegram for us, which is great. Discord is a little bit trickier because it’s a TOS breach to use any sort of like bot activity on that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TOS is Terms of Service, the contract between a platform like Telegram and its users.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For now, like on Discord, if someone has a link that they’ve noticed that they want down, they can submit it to us and then we can do it from there. We currently don’t scan Discord because it is like a TOS breach to do, but we’re hoping as, like I said, as we grow that door can open.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Overall, what hurdles still exist when it comes to taking down deepfakes? Like what’s the kind of like technical white whale you’re still chasing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I’d say the biggest thing that we’re trying to roll out is actually identifying who leaked or who deep faked XYZ content. I think if we were able to do that, we might, I wouldn’t say solve the piracy problem, but definitely lower it. You know, we’re really hoping we can get in talks with, you know, platforms like OF, Fansly or Instagram and stuff like that, uh, to roll out a technology that we’re working on where basically it embeds like an invisible watermark into different images and stuff like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So if it is leaked or if it has deep faked or if someone else’s face has put on it, they’re able to know who exactly posted it based off this invisible embedded technology, which already exists for sites like Netflix. It’s how they track like video, uh, I guess leaks or, you know, from studios that maybe have like a trailer for the new Avengers movie and they want to track if it got leaked on X or anything like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think if we’re able to get that done, like I feel like we’d significantly fix the problem and be a lot more proactive. Because I mean, if people start realizing, ‘oh shoot, if I leak or deep fake content, my account gets banned. Like, it’s going to really throw a wrench in the whole leak ecosystem. And that’s what we’re really trying to build towards right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re coming from very different sides of the internet, kind of, whether in the safe work side or the adult content industry. But this is also a problem that deeply affects both of your spheres of the creator economy. How has the proliferation of deepfake porn changed the creator industry for you? And what would you say to someone who’s afraid to keep posting?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The unfortunate thing is it’s such an uphill battle when it comes to deepfaked and leaked content, especially with AI getting as good as it is right now. But to somebody who is kind of scared to post right now, just know that there are people who are trying to find solutions to this kind of stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And for these people who are generating this kind of content, it’s very much about their own sense of control. It doesn’t reflect you as a creator. You shouldn’t be afraid to post what you want because of this horrible threat of somebody taking your content and basically twisting it into something that you didn’t consent to. And hopefully our government can kind of catch up with this kind of stuff here pretty soon. But there are people like me and Zander who are trying to take real steps to help mitigate this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For creators, I’d say, you know, if you need to, you know, get anything you need for support on it, do it. You know, if you need to take a step back, do it. And then I’d say like, it’s a twofold thing where it’s like, don’t glamorize generative AI video and image content because that only speeds up the industry and then really push for better legislation and, you know, call your Senator, call your Congressman, like get it passed. Because It’s only going to get worse as it gets easier and it’s able to be done for more people. I think those are probably the two biggest things a creator can do right now that has like an actual like tangible impact to halt this problem or make it slow down at least.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, thank you both so much for talking about all of this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, thank you for having us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you or someone you know has been targeted with deep fake porn, there are ways to have it removed. Fanlock also has free guides for creators navigating this problem. Check the show notes for more. We’ll link to a few resources about the Take It Down Act and how to remove non-consensual intimate imagery. For now, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. The Close All tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">diving into the world of nonconsensual deepfake porn and why this problem reaches far beyond influencers and sex workers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When users on X started asking Grok to generate explicit images of real women and girls without their consent, Twitch streamer and OnlyFans creator Morgpie watched the harassment spiral in real time. Cosplayer and software engineer Zander Small saw firsthand how nonconsensual images affected his girlfriend, a SFW creator, and her friends. The two decided to team up to build tools that help creators detect leaks, remove deepfakes, and reclaim control over their images online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Note:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This episode contains mentions of gender-based violence and nonconsensual intimate imagery, which may be triggering for some listeners. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5643980688\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/bigguswombus/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgpie\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, OnlyFans creator and cofounder of Fanlock\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/zander_smalls/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander Small\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cb>, \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">content creator and cofounder of Fanlock\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.dexerto.com/twitch/influencers-take-on-ai-deepfakes-with-new-creator-protection-agency-3324719/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Influencers take on AI deepfakes with their own creator protection agency\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Virginia Glaze, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dextero\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/musks-ai-chatbot-grok-xai-making-sexual-deepfakes-imagine-rcna265855\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Musk’s Grok AI chatbot is still making sexual deepfakes, despite X’s promise to stop it\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — David Ingram, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NBC News\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/deepfake-nudify-schools-global-crisis/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Deepfake Nudes Crisis in Schools Is Much Worse Than You Thought\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Matt Burgess, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WIRED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://19thnews.org/2025/05/take-it-down-act-signing-explicit-images\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Take It Down Act: How to use it to remove revenge porn\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jasmine Mithani, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The 19th\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://rainn.org/rainns-recommendations-for-legislators/image-based-sexual-abuse-laws-combat-nonconsensual-ai-deepfakes/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Image-Based Sexual Abuse Laws: Combat Nonconsensual AI Deepfakes\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">RAINN\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://rainn.org/get-informed/issues/ai-tech-enabled-sexual-abuse/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI & Tech-Enabled Sexual Abuse: Risk & Prevention\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">RAINN\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://deepstrike.io/blog/deepfake-statistics-2025\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Deepfake Statistics 2025: AI Fraud Data & Trends\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Mohammed Khalil, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DeepStrike\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you closing your tabs? You can be honest, this is a safe space. If you’re a fan of Close All Tabs and you want more of it, then please rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends about us. It would be such a huge help to get the word out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s get to the show. Just a note, this episode contains mentions of gender-based violence and non-consensual intimate imagery, which may be triggering for some listeners.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know Grok? It’s the AI chatbot integrated with X, the social media app formerly known as Twitter and now owned by Elon Musk. Well, since late last year, Grok has been embroiled in an undressing scandal, generating sexually explicit images of people without their consent. The majority of targets were women. Some were minors, young girls. For a few weeks, it was a pretty disgusting widespread trend. When women or even teenage girls posted fully clothed photos of themselves on X, other users would comment and tag Grok, asking it to ‘put her in a bikini’ or ‘take off her top.’ The chatbot would publicly respond with a generated lewd or completely naked image of the subject. Some users went even further, asking Grok to add blood and bruises, prompting the chatbot to generate graphic, sexually violent images of these women.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh man, it was very much like I was waking up every day and I didn’t want to post.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Morgpie, a Twitch streamer and OnlyFans creator. People who know her IRL call her Morgan. She’s been a porn actress for years, and as someone who makes sexually explicit content, she’s used to creeps harassing her with her own nudes. But the Grok and dressing trend really unsettled her. It was the worst in January.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Being looped in with something that is so violating, and like you said, something that’s even affecting minors is just disgusting. Every day I was going into my comments and just like hiding replies and blocking because I’m like, I’m not going to let you guys just generate these images of me that I did not consent to, especially if it’s being associated with basically creating child pornography on Twitter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was non-consensual, intimate imagery, more commonly known as deep fake porn. A deep fake is content that has been generated or manipulated by AI to imitate someone else. Zander Small, another content creator and a friend of Morgan’s, says that the proliferation of AI tools has started to seriously affect content creators, regardless of whether or not they make adult content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Deep fakes can be anything from deep fake explicit imagery with like, a creator doing something or nude content that they didn’t consent to. Or it could be stuff as simple as like, an audio deep fake where a creator is saying something that they don’t consent too, which might have repercussions of them being canceled or stuff that they just obviously wouldn’t consent to saying.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan hasn’t had to deal with deep fake porn of herself as much. After years of being in this industry, she’s developed thick skin. She’s mostly dealt with leaks, or explicit content that she posted behind a paywall that was illegally downloaded and posted elsewhere, without her consent. But the Grok trend is just the tip of the iceberg. Non-consensual deep fake-porn has exploded over the last few years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that for a lot of people, the lack of consent is very attractive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is an issue that overwhelmingly affects women, and these circles are not as fringe as you might think. An annual report last year by the cybersecurity firm DeepStrike found that roughly 97% of all deepfakes online fall under non-consensual intimate imagery, and that 99 to 100% of victims of deepfake pornography are women. Here’s Zander again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it is either fans, if you want to call them that, or just creeps on the internet, wanting to see more out of a creator than they consented to. I know it affects a lot of SFW creators.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SFW, or Safe for Work. They don’t show nudity or make sexually explicit content. While NSFW, not Safer work, means adult content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, you know, and I guess from that, you know, if a creator isn’t consenting to do more explicit content, then, you know, these, uh, I guess perpetrators, creeps, whatever you want to call them, you know, take into their hands to do it themselves. And it’s incredibly easy to deep fake content and, you know, as models get better and better and they get quicker and quicker, it doesn’t really require as much of sophisticated technology to run these models.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some of the mainstream models, ChatGPT, Gemini, Claude, have guardrails that are supposed to prevent them from generating deep fake porn. In January, X announced that it implemented technological measures to prevent Grok from modifying images of real people in revealing clothing. But there are ways to get around these guardraills. Just last month, NBC News reported that Grok is still generating deep-fake porn of real women. And like Zander said, there are so many other models out there that just don’t have these guardrails in the first place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander hasn’t had to deal with deep fake porn of himself, but he’s seen how much it’s affected people he’s close to, other safer work creators who don’t make explicit content. And Morgan, coming from the porn industry, has seen how this issue affects her fellow adult content creators.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So late last year, they teamed up to come up with a solution for other creators. Today, we’re diving into the seedy reality of non-consensual deepfake porn, when it got so bad, why it’s so hard to stop, and how two Gen Z content creators are trying to tackle it. Ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open our first tab: the reality of non-consensual deep fake porn. Morgan is an award-winning porn creator. Literally, she has multiple Pornhub awards. And when she started years ago, the internet was very different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s very interesting because when I first started, the climate was very much like, if you opened up Twitter, you would see tweets that are like, ‘sex work is real work.’ Of course, this was kind of around the time when OnlyFans was only just emerging barely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the world of adult content, there was before OnlyFans, and then there’s after OnlyFans. The platform completely changed the game, lowering the barrier of entry for new creators and giving them new options to monetize their content. Morgan said that before OnlyFans blew up, the only way to make a living as an independent porn creator was to land on the front page of Pornhub, or actresses had to break into the industry by being part of studio productions where they didn’t have as much autonomy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s very interesting the shift between whenever porn was basically widely available, you didn’t really have to pay much for it. When I first started, I was uploading to Pornhub, and that was full length, full scenes that you could see for free at any time. Whereas now, the climate has shifted a lot to where creators like myself have a lot more control. So we’re able to, you know, use OnlyFans as a platform where we are more connected with our audience and that is actually the main pull. Now we’re in this age where these models can kind of take a bit of that control back. They can control what content they make, how much they sell it for. And I think that that plays so much into like the conversation about deepfakes where it’s about control. It’s all about consent. And then with deepfakes, you can make anybody do anything. So you have the control over this other person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since joining OnlyFans, Morgan and other adult creators have dealt with the same problem: leaks. They consent to paying subscribers accessing certain premium content that’s been posted behind a paywall. Then some unscrupulous subscriber downloads it and posts it publicly without their permission for the rest of the world to see. It was a constant source of frustration for Morgan.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then about a year and a half ago, Morgan noticed the deep fakes. Her friends told her about how they stumbled across videos of themselves online, but it wasn’t really them. Someone had taken explicit content from behind their paywalls and modified it, morphing them into these scenarios that the creators never wanted to be in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, it all stems back to control. It’s like, ‘oh, you did this thing that I didn’t like. Well, look at this control I have over your image. I’m going to use that against you.’.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think some detractors would say, like, ‘oh, well, if you make explicit content, why does deep fake porn bother you? Or why do your leaks bother you?’ What would you say to them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it’s it’s all about consent. That’s like saying, ‘oh, because you make porn, if I see you on the street, I can sexually assault you.’ You know, it’s like, consent is a very real thing. And there’s a big difference between me in the comfort of my own home within my own boundaries, producing content that I enjoy, and somebody else taking these things and making content that I didn’t consent to be in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not just Morgan and her fellow porn actresses dealing with this. Women who don’t make explicit content are also subjected to this harassment. One of the most well-known cases of this was when Atrioc, a Twitch streamer, was live. During his stream, he showed his open tabs for a split second, and one of them included deep fake porn of his own friends and streaming colleagues. He was caught buying this content. QTCinderella, another streamer was one of Atriok’s close friends. She was also a victim of the deep fake porn he bought.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip of QTCinderella]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Atrioc for showing it to thousands of people, the people DMing me pictures of myself from that website, f*ck you all!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pokimane is like a great example of this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pokimane is another Twitch streamer who was also a victim of atriox deep fake porn purchases. She does not make explicit adult content, but as a woman existing online, she deals with harassment constantly. Like, here she is reading comments from her audience.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of Pokimane]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yo yo yo, let’s see some ass. This ain’t a club fam, this is just my Twitch chat.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are so many clips of her literally just getting up and standing up out of her chair and that’ll get clipped and posted all over Twitter. And all of Twitter is like, ‘look at what she’s doing. She’s gooner baiting!’.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Goonerbait started as a term to describe video games or anime that aren’t pornographic but contain a lot of sexual imagery like jiggle physics and very scantily clad female characters. It’s media designed to appeal to gooners. Gooners are porn addicts. And now, internet randos love to accuse real-life women of gooner baiting, mainly female streamers like Pokimane.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘She’s, you know, performing for her male audience.’ And it’s like, well, is she really doing anything? She kind of just got up and walked out of the room, but they’re like, ‘oh, her pants are a little too tight.’ So it’s, like, I think this idea of a woman that’s kind of, just not really even doing anything, a lot of people love to just over-sexualize.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In some online circles, there is the sentiment that women like Morgan deserve to be deepfaked because they already make porn, and that women, like Pokimane, also deserve to deepfake because they’re somehow gooner baiting. It even affects people who don’t post online. Non-consensual deepfakes are rampant in schools. A Wired investigation last month found that high school boys have targeted their fellow classmates by spreading fake, generated nudes of them. These are teenage girls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, the thing is, it’s not going to stop with sex workers. As much as the sentiment these days is very anti-sex work, like, ‘oh, if you make this content, you’re kind of putting yourself up to be distributed in this way.’ But the thing it is, is it’s 100% a slippery slope and it’s going to keep going into Twitch streamers who are known and even just normal people. There’s nothing stopping anybody from pulling up somebody’s Facebook profile, just a normal person who doesn’t produce any content whatsoever, and making explicit deep fakes of them and distributing them. And that can be used as blackmail. The possibilities there are quite literally endless in terms of the harm that they could cause for everybody.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve talked about spending so much money on deepfake takedowns, but how did you initially try to tackle this problem of deepfakes and leaked content?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was going in every single week and I was Googling my name and I was going on like Twitter, Reddit, all these other sites, just like searching for my name, um, and seeing pages and pages and pages of all this leaked content that would come up. And back then I was paying over a thousand dollars a month on these takedowns, but I would still have to go in and manually report a lot of stuff. You shouldn’t really have to go in and look at your own leaks and your own deep fakes, which is just awful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan was at her wits end. And then, late last year, she saw that Zander was working on a project that may be able to solve her problem. And she wanted to help. We’ll hear Zander’s story after the break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. Okay, back to the story after the break. Stick around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Now, let’s open that new tab: What is Fanlock?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander had started out as a Minecraft YouTuber back in high school. It was a fun thing he did on the side before he went to college to study software engineering. He was on his high school robotics team and loved tinkering and fixing things. A few years ago, during his sophomore year, he started going to anime conventions with his friends. Here’s the thing, Zander’s really tall. He’s 6’8″. His friend pointed out that he could carve out a real niche as a comically tall cosplayer. He pushed Zander to start posting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was like ‘Bro, it’s gonna be like viral because like, oh my gosh, why is a Gojo cosplayer like as tall as like LeBron James?’ So I did it and it did pretty good. And I guess it just snowballed from there and I just haven’t stopped since.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">About six months after he went viral as comically tall Gojo, he started getting brand deals from anime companies. He gained hundreds of thousands of followers. He flew all over the country, attending cons and meetups. He even hosted a few lookalike competitions. There’s a picture of the Hatsune Miku lookalite competition he hosted. A gaggle of cosplayers in turquoise wigs, and then Zander, towering above the crowd in his own turquois getup. Of course, he was still in school juggling a burgeoning full-time career as a content creator while also attending classes and doing homework and studying for exams.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He considered dropping out, but his parents really, really wanted him to stay in school. They weren’t thrilled at the idea of their son leaving an engineering degree to pursue anime content. So he stuck it out, and last year, while finishing up his last semester of school, He stumbled across this deep fake problem. It struck a very personal chord.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So about a month before I graduated, my girlfriend, who’s an SFW creator, had a huge deep fake problem. Um, you know, there’s accounts popping up on like Threads or Instagram that either use her likeness or just full on non-consensual porn, uh, deep fakes of her, which is super mentally taxing, uh on her, you know, as an SF W creator. You know, she didn’t consent to being in those positions or having these account to DM her fans, like, ‘Hey, send me $400 and we’ll go on a date,’ type of just scam content. So it was from there that I was like, let me see what’s up and see if I can help you. So that’s when I really took a deep dive into DMCA, non-consensual imagery and depending on the platform it’s on what you can do about that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DMCA, as in the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. It’s copyright law for internet content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I was able to get a lot of her stuff down, which was great. Uh, but then at that point it was like, you know, what are the other players in the space doing about this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What he found were takedown tools that were very expensive and not that effective. While creator management firms and talent agencies have in-house services for this, they’re inaccessible to smaller creators. After Zander helped his girlfriend, her friends reached out to him. They had the same problem. And then their friends reached out. And all of this coincided with his post-graduation job search. He planned to at least try to use his degree. But the job market for entry-level software engineers was rough.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think by the third final round interview at like some fang company where they rejected me after four weeks and five interviews, I was just so fed up. I was like, you know what, screw this. I’m gonna just do this myself. I’ma make my own company. So, and at that time, you it’s like the overlap of like, oh, I figured out how to do this. I could help more creators like this and really solve a real problem.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, he started working on it, a tool for creators that would scan the internet for leaked and deepfaked content and automatically send DMCA takedown requests. And if the sites didn’t comply, this tool would have to find other ways to force a takedow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander knew how traumatic it was for his girlfriend and her friends to be constantly confronted with non-consensual deepfake porn. So, he wanted this tool to take down content automatically, without creators having to see it. And the tool also had to catch the non-consensual deepfakes before they spread to other platforms. But he knew he couldn’t do it alone. He needed the perspective of other creators for it to really work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I pretty much just posted on my close friends at some point, like, hey, I’m thinking about doing this as like an actual like business or something like that. If anyone will be down to just test it out for free and see how good like my, you know, scanning architecture and stuff like that is, let me know. And Morgan actually swiped up on the story and was like, hey, that actually sounds pretty neat. I’d be down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan and Zander had met at TwitchCon a while back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And we hopped on a call and I was like, ‘would you be down to like do this with me?’ Cause like, I think it’d be pretty sick if we had like two creators doing it that know the problem. You know, Morgan knows firsthand, like the adult space, but as well as like a firsthand account of like leaks and deep fakes and you know, where they live and stuff like that. And you know I guess from there, it just was one of those things where it was like I think this could be a real player in the space and I’m really passionate about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan, what was it like for you to see that story?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve struggled with this stuff for so long. I know so many people that I could tap in on and get their feedback. My scope in this space is so wide because I’ve had my eggs in so many baskets online And that I knew that I would be able to bring a good perspective and good input.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they managed to raise $200,000, and with that, Morgan and Zander launched Fanlock earlier this year. Zander handles the technical side, making sure Fanlock works, and Morgan handles the creator side, managing outreach to other creators.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I guess I get to apply that degree that I was considering dropping out to do content for. And it’s, I guess like a full 360, you know, everyone that was like, you should stay in school and finish it out. I guess it came back to be useful because now I can apply it to helping my friends and other people in the space with this really real problem that they have.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This solution isn’t that straightforward though. That’s a new tab: Why is it so hard to take down deepfakes?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In May last year, President Trump signed the Take It Down Act, a landmark law that criminalizes the publication of non-consensual intimate imagery, including digital forgeries, aka deep fake porn. It’s one of Congress’s first bipartisan actions to tackle AI-generated content. The law also requires online platforms to implement a removal request system and to take down deep fake porn within 48 hours of a request.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of these sites thankfully already had like forms or different reporting mechanisms to report deepfakes, but I think with this act itself, it’s a really good step in the right direction to combat non-consensual deepfake and, you know, props to the government for doing something right for once and actually passing this really quickly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the Take It Down Act is only enforceable under U.S. jurisdiction, although the EU also has similar laws. But a lot of these sites are based outside of these places, like in Russia.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so for like Russia and Chinese sites, it gets a lot harder because they don’t have any need to comply either like deep fake penalties or DMCA because it’s specifically like USA, EU jurisdiction typically. And that makes it a lot hard to get content down off those sites if it’s even possible at all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a few things you can do for these sites. There’s been some sites I know firsthand that they use, let’s say, a USA-based company for their notification system. We’re able to submit basically a DMCA to those companies, basically being like, hey, just so you know, you’re aiding in copyright infringement by working with this client. If we were to take it a step further, we could always issue a DMC subpoena to them if they use Google Analytics, for example, to straight to Google. And that would help us get more information about… The actual emails of the site, who this person actually is. So if they’re in the EU or USA, we can take those legal routes. Obviously there’s sites I know that are pretty much, they’re built from the ground up for piracy and it’s pretty much impossible to get those stuff down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the more difficult aspects of tackling deepfakes is catching them before Google indexes them, basically, storing web pages in its own database so they appear in search results. Because when something appears in search results, it spreads like wildfire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Google updated its search functions a few years ago to identify deepfakes and prevent them from appearing at the top of search results, but there are still deepfakess that slip through the cracks. Zander said that Fanlock keeps tabs on specific sites that have histories of hosting non-consensual deepfakes. They scan them and send takedown demands, before they hit Google search results.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, no one wants their family Googling them or something and they see deep fakes of them all over Google Images.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know Fanlock also relies on a lot of facial recognition technology to identify leaked content and deepfakes. Obviously, this technology is very controversial. It’s often used in law enforcement and has a lot connections to surveillance. But what are your thoughts on this use of facial-recognition technology?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, obviously, if a creator signs up for our platform and we’re doing it in a consensual manner, I think that’s great. I obviously am big anti-surveillance, but I think the the key word at the end of the day is just consent, which is like the fundamental problem that I think these creators are having. And if they’re consenting to a service to take down stuff that was made non-consensually, I think, that’s why our creators are okay with it. And I think there’s a big differentiation between that and then, you know, some tech company scanning my face to see if I’m a criminal or something like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to talk about some of the technical challenges that still exist. You mentioned trying to build a Telegram scanner right now. A lot of non-consensual deep fake porn is passed around in closed channels on Discord or group chats or Telegram. Do either of you have any experience with this happening? Like, what is the approach here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When we were building FanLock, I was like, Telegram is, like, the final boss of piracy. I really want to build a solution that while we can’t scan a hundred percent of Telegram, I want to build the absolute most, like I guess comprehensive Telegram scanner we can based on like what’s publicly available and what providers there are to us. So for Telegram, typically for like private groups and stuff like that, you’re able to join them if you have like a join link, which we’ve kind of gotten from people being like, ‘hey, I got leaks here, join my channel.’ And after we get the join link we’re able to figure out where copyrighted content is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We already do have our Telegram scanner up. You know, we have about 11 million channels, you know, from our own services, but also third party providers that we use that have kind of indexed Telegram for us, which is great. Discord is a little bit trickier because it’s a TOS breach to use any sort of like bot activity on that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TOS is Terms of Service, the contract between a platform like Telegram and its users.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For now, like on Discord, if someone has a link that they’ve noticed that they want down, they can submit it to us and then we can do it from there. We currently don’t scan Discord because it is like a TOS breach to do, but we’re hoping as, like I said, as we grow that door can open.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Overall, what hurdles still exist when it comes to taking down deepfakes? Like what’s the kind of like technical white whale you’re still chasing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I’d say the biggest thing that we’re trying to roll out is actually identifying who leaked or who deep faked XYZ content. I think if we were able to do that, we might, I wouldn’t say solve the piracy problem, but definitely lower it. You know, we’re really hoping we can get in talks with, you know, platforms like OF, Fansly or Instagram and stuff like that, uh, to roll out a technology that we’re working on where basically it embeds like an invisible watermark into different images and stuff like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So if it is leaked or if it has deep faked or if someone else’s face has put on it, they’re able to know who exactly posted it based off this invisible embedded technology, which already exists for sites like Netflix. It’s how they track like video, uh, I guess leaks or, you know, from studios that maybe have like a trailer for the new Avengers movie and they want to track if it got leaked on X or anything like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think if we’re able to get that done, like I feel like we’d significantly fix the problem and be a lot more proactive. Because I mean, if people start realizing, ‘oh shoot, if I leak or deep fake content, my account gets banned. Like, it’s going to really throw a wrench in the whole leak ecosystem. And that’s what we’re really trying to build towards right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re coming from very different sides of the internet, kind of, whether in the safe work side or the adult content industry. But this is also a problem that deeply affects both of your spheres of the creator economy. How has the proliferation of deepfake porn changed the creator industry for you? And what would you say to someone who’s afraid to keep posting?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The unfortunate thing is it’s such an uphill battle when it comes to deepfaked and leaked content, especially with AI getting as good as it is right now. But to somebody who is kind of scared to post right now, just know that there are people who are trying to find solutions to this kind of stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And for these people who are generating this kind of content, it’s very much about their own sense of control. It doesn’t reflect you as a creator. You shouldn’t be afraid to post what you want because of this horrible threat of somebody taking your content and basically twisting it into something that you didn’t consent to. And hopefully our government can kind of catch up with this kind of stuff here pretty soon. But there are people like me and Zander who are trying to take real steps to help mitigate this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For creators, I’d say, you know, if you need to, you know, get anything you need for support on it, do it. You know, if you need to take a step back, do it. And then I’d say like, it’s a twofold thing where it’s like, don’t glamorize generative AI video and image content because that only speeds up the industry and then really push for better legislation and, you know, call your Senator, call your Congressman, like get it passed. Because It’s only going to get worse as it gets easier and it’s able to be done for more people. I think those are probably the two biggest things a creator can do right now that has like an actual like tangible impact to halt this problem or make it slow down at least.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, thank you both so much for talking about all of this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, thank you for having us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you or someone you know has been targeted with deep fake porn, there are ways to have it removed. Fanlock also has free guides for creators navigating this problem. Check the show notes for more. We’ll link to a few resources about the Take It Down Act and how to remove non-consensual intimate imagery. For now, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. The Close All tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happens when your therapist is… a chatbot?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg, it started with a late-night spiral over dating. Instead of texting a friend, she opened ChatGPT and got the kind of calm, reassuring advice she needed. It worked… maybe a little too well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley joins Morgan to dig into the rise of AI therapy, why so many people are turning to chatbots for emotional support, and what they might be risking in the process. These systems promise something traditional mental health care often can’t: instant, affordable, judgment-free access. But there are limits and, sometimes, serious consequences. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Note:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This episode includes discussions of suicide and mental health conditions. Listener discretion is advised.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode first aired on April 23rd, 2025 \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4726760100\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/lesleymcclurg\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley McClurg\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em> health correspondent\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1996504/ai-replace-therapist-benefits-risks-unsettling-truths\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can AI Replace Your Therapist? The Benefits, Risks and Unsettling Truths\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lesley McClurg, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2025/04/07/nx-s1-5351312/artificial-intelligence-mental-health-therapy\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI therapist can see you now\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Katia Riddle, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NPR\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://spectrum.ieee.org/woebot\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woebot, a Mental-Health Chatbot, Tries Out Generative AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Sackett, Devin Harper, and Aaron Pavez, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">IEEE Spectrum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12057327/ai-prophets-and-spiritual-delusions\">AI Prophets and Spiritual Delusions\u003c/a> — \u003ci>Close All Tabs\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/urban-survival/202510/new-studies-reveal-mental-health-blindspots-of-ai-chatbots\">New Studies Reveal Mental Health Blindspots of AI Chatbots\u003c/a> — Marlynn Wei, \u003ci>Psychology Today\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/04/07/nx-s1-5771707/mental-health-care-workforce-artificial-intelligence-ai\">AI in the mental health care workforce is met with fear, pushback — and enthusiasm\u003c/a> — Rhitu Chatterjee, \u003ci>NPR\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey! You’re listening to Close All Tabs, and I’m Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">May is Mental Health Awareness Month. With the proliferation of AI tools over the last few years, many people have turned to chatbots for companionship, advice … and even therapy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It makes sense — healthcare in the US can be completely inaccessible, especially when it comes to mental health treatment. But in some cases, AI chatbots can put very vulnerable users in danger.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In light of that, mental health has been at the forefront of conversations about AI use. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today, for Mental Health Awareness Month, we’re re-airing an episode that explores that exact topic. A quick heads up: this episode includes discussion of suicide and mental health conditions, which may be distressing for some listeners. If you or someone you know needs support, we’ll have links to resources in the episode description.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I was going through a divorce and started dating after my divorce and hadn’t dated in many years and came home after a date one night and was just really anxious and kind of disheveled and needed some advice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was late at night and I had used ChatGPT for, you know, other things and found it pretty helpful and I thought, what about for this moment in my life? And so I asked Chat whether or not I should reach out to this person that I had just dated because I was feeling like the night hadn’t gone that well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was late at night. She didn’t want to bug a friend about this, and really, she was feeling pretty vulnerable. She didn’t want to be judged. And so, ChatGPT was right there, ready to cheerfully answer her questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was surprised that it was so good. I just remember after, you know, a few back and forths, I realized that really I was just nervous, really I just needed to take a deep breath. Basically I had created a big storm in my head. And Chat basically was like, “hey, chill, relax, it could have gone well. There’s another way this could have played out, not the sort of devastating reality that you’re playing out right now. Maybe give it a day or two and then reach out.” And so in that moment, it just sort of helped me take the gas off and come back into myself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was exactly what she needed to hear at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I didn’t text the person, which was the right call, and kind of used it as I warmed myself back up into the dating world, and it was really helpful. And so it made me then, as a reporter, start asking, “should I be telling this thing all about my love life? Is this a good idea, privacy-wise, et cetera?” And so that’s where it sort of seeded my reporting going forward. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley isn’t the only one turning to ChatGPT for therapy. If you’ve ever dealt with any health insurance company, you’re probably familiar with the hassle of getting care. And mental health care is especially inaccessible. AI chatbots though, they’re convenient, cost little to nothing to use, and in Lesley’s case, can actually be pretty helpful. But a lot of people are also wary of turning to AI for therapy, can you trust it? What are you risking when you share your most vulnerable thoughts with a chatbot? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Access to actual mental health resources has become so limited. Cost and insurance aside, there’s a shortage of licensed human mental health professionals across the country. But can AI therapy really replace actual therapists? Okay, new tab. Does AI therapy work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over the course of your reporting, did you meet anyone who actually used an AI chatbot for therapy? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually talked to quite a few people who used AI therapy and I went online and read a lot of Reddit threads because this is quite the popular topic. I heard more positive stories than negatives. As a reporter, I wanted to illustrate someone who kind of had a nuanced experience, you know, good and bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, Lesley found a woman named Lilly Payne:. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She had kind of the ideal story to illustrate that, yes, it helped her, but it wasn’t ideal. And so that was sort of like the character that I ended up, you know, focusing on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In your story, you mentioned that Lilly had turned to AI therapy um during the COVID lockdowns, which were a terrible time for a lot of us. But Lilly wasn’t just experiencing, you know, anxiety and depression and loneliness. Her situation was a little more complicated, right? Can you talk about that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean in her words, her life basically fell apart. She graduated from college, she had moved to New York City to pursue an arts career, was very excited. And if we can remember, you know, New York was sort of the epicenter of the early days of COVID. It was really bad. Lockdown was really scary and the hospitals were overflowing and it was not a good scene. And so she left her arts career, abandoned her dreams and moved back home, which was pretty painful, to her parents’ home in Kentucky. And she is sort of tucked away, and it just felt like a big failure. And she was really struggling with like, what’s next for my life? Where do I go from here? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was such a lonely time for so many people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Lilly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was not at a breaking point, but I wasn’t doing awesome. So I was like, “the more help, the better.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in all of that anxiety, she, you know, initially reached out and leaned on a lot of friends, but eventually she felt like she’d kind of worn those supports thin. And so she read about Woebot, this AI therapy platform in a health newsletter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I gave it a shot because I was like, why not? Everyone’s cooped up in their house. I will talk to this robot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Initially it was really helpful. It did help her calm herself. I think she said she, you know, even just having it in her pocket helped her feel more in control in her life. I think she relied on it quite a bit in those early days to kind of find her ground again and be able to focus on, you know, re-imagining a new life from there while she was back at home with her parents in Kentucky. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s worth noting that Woebot is a therapy-specific AI chatbot, and it doesn’t use generative AI to respond to users the way that other tools like ChatGPT, or Claude, or DeepSeek do. This means that its interactions with users are a bit more predictable. It’s also engineered to respond the way that a therapist might. So instead of immediately jumping into offering advice, Woebot asks specific questions to encourage users to reflect and do the inner work themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, it was designed by a psychologist. And so, you know, from that perspective, it it really is designed to focus on your mental health. The goal of Woebot is, you know, as a mental health tool, as a wellness tool, I think is how they market themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woebot is designed to use a set of techniques called cognitive behavioral therapy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, cognitive behavioral therapy helps you reframe your negative thoughts using specific exercises. And, you know, I think as any CBT, which is what it’s acronym is, it feels a little forced, but she did say it did help her reframe those negative thoughts and that she was able to think more more positively. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Can you talk about uh Lilly’s uh other diagnosis that maybe complicated this form of treatment? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She has obsessive-compulsive disorder, and sometimes that makes her fixate on worst-case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time when people think about OCD they think of, just the very cliche like, “oh, you can’t stop washing your hands, you’re afraid of germs.” While that is a very real subtype that people experience, typically OCD like manifests in really taboo intrusive thoughts, and then the physical compulsions stem from trying to keep those themes away. And so, logically, you can know that, like, this doesn’t make sense, it’s not actually happening, but it just, it, it’s not just in your head, like physically it feels so real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lilly is also diagnosed with anxiety and depression. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A symptom of depression is suicide ideation eventually, right? So she fixated on the idea that eventually because of her depression, that she may think about killing herself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My brain would be like, “Oh, you’ve struggled with depression in the past. There’s no saying that one day you won’t want to go through with suicide.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so she mentioned that she was worried about suicide in a session with Woebot. And Woebot came back and had a crisis alert and said, “hey, you better call the suicide hotline.” And she said, “no, no no, wait a second.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not experiencing suicidal inclinations, I’m just terrified that I will. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And luckily she knew that, she understood her disorder enough to know that nuance and to know what was happening in her brain because she had done so much previous therapy. But she said, you know, if she hadn’t really understood her disease, having that crisis alert come up may have even added more stress. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would have freaked out and been like, “oh my gosh, this this thing that is supposed to have this mental health knowledge thinks that I am suicidal. I must be suicidal, I must be a danger to myself.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, in defense of Woebot, they came back and said, “hey, we’re not, you know, specifically targeting or for people who have OCD. We really are just a wellness tool. “But her story illustrates where AI doesn’t necessarily have the nuance, the understanding — that a human, like a human therapist would have picked up on that. They would have understood that she had OCD and really understood the nuances of that, whereas in this case, Woebot didn’t. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. It sounds like Wobot was inadvertently validating this intrusive thought that she was having because she has OCD. And when you’re really depressed or anxious, it might be helpful for your feelings to be validated like that. But how does that compare to the recommended treatment for OCD? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean the recommended treatment for OCD is generally exposure therapy. So you expose yourself to whatever you’re scared of. And so in this case, a therapist would work with her in terms of exposing herself to those ideas, probably walk her through, you know, reality, et cetera, in a way that allows her to lean into her fears so that they’re not as scary and sort of wound up and keep going. And sort of overtake her. Whereas you, like a therapist wouldn’t stand up with a red flag and say, “Oh my God, you really are suicidal. Therefore you should call a hotline.” Right? Which is basically what Woebot did. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lilly’s case is just one example of the limits of AI therapy. Responding with a crisis alert wasn’t helpful for her specific needs, but it’s probably good that Woebot even has those guardrails in place. But what happens when AI chatbots go off script? How bad can it get? We’ll get into that when we come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New tab. AI therapy … worst case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Woebot can’t necessarily respond with the nuance of an actual human therapist. But it seems like it wasn’t giving Lilly bad advice. Um but let’s talk about examples of AI therapy doing the exact opposite of what it’s supposed to do. What happened with the National Eating Disorder Association hotline? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, that didn’t play out very well. They created a bot named Tessa and some of the users found that Tessa was giving them dieting advice. So these are folks \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh god. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who have, you know, anorexia, bulimia, and somehow Tessa’s wires got crossed and people were getting the exact advice that would be really dangerous for their eating disorders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sharon Maxwell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The recommendations that Tessa gave me was that I could lose one to two pounds per week, that I should eat no more than 2,000 calories in a day, that I should have a calorie deficit of 500 to 1,000 calories per day. All of which might sound benign to the general listener, however, to an individual with an eating disorder, the focus of weight loss really fuels the eating disorder. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Sharon Maxwell, an eating disorder recovery educator, speaking to NPR about her experience with Tessa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, NEDA, the National Eating Disorder Association, you know, pulled Tessa down and said, “this isn’t working very well.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it sounds like they just didn’t have that kind of guardrail in place. Like they didn’t anticipate that. Um, so even if Lilly didn’t really need Woebot to immediately jump into crisis mode, at least it had that guardrail to say, like, “hey, crisis.” But in the past, other AI chatbots have gotten into serious trouble for not responding to users’ red flags and just validating their responses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that happened in the case of Character AI, this AI app that lets users personalize an AI companion based on fictional characters, celebrities, historical figures, all that. Until a recent lawsuit, Character AI did not have any safety measures or disclaimers warning users that they weren’t talking to a real person. What led to this lawsuit? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, there was a 14-year-old who grew really attached to his character that he had created. Like you said, Character AI lets you create a character and then interact with that character. And, you know, not surprisingly, kind of like I did in my first experience with ChatGPT, it feels so good that you develop a little bit of an emotional connection. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so this 14-year-old did that over the course of several months. And then he started opening up about some of the distress that he was feeling. And the character, instead of steering, you know, this 14-year-old towards help, unfortunately the bot allegedly reinforced some suicidal thoughts and eventually the boy ended up taking his life. And so the lawsuit, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s terrible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly, it was really kind of horrific and it’s not the only one like this. There’s only a handful at this point, but it really is raising the red flag that these very empathetic responses are sort of like, you know parroting back, which is, again, what some AI does. Uh it can play out really, really poorly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In January 2026, Character.AI agreed to settle multiple lawsuits that alleged that the chatbot contributed to mental health issues among teenagers. Other companies have faced similar lawsuits, after several users died by suicide, allegedly at the encouragement of chatbots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what happened with the eating disorder hotline and Character AI, those are pretty extreme cases. Will most people actually experience those worst case scenarios? In your research, did you find anything about that? Or is it just like, are these just edge cases? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean we don’t have numbers yet. I think it’s really early in the arc of this technology. I think the experts are most worried about platforms that are like Character AI, where you are building a relationship with a character. In their defense, they’re not built as mental health tools, right? These are not marketing themselves as mental health tools. They are, you know, marketing themselves as, “hey, here, we’re going to give you a friend.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yet, you know, like a friend, like you and I probably do with our friends, we lean on our friends. We talk to our friends. We build emotional connections with our friends. We trust our friends for the right advice, right? And these are robots. So that relationship is not uh, you know, built on human connection. And like we can see it can go wrong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another concern that I have, you know, as a tech reporter is uh privacy. ChatGPT, for example, isn’t HIPAA compliant. Could you explain what HIPPA is and why it’s necessary with medical information? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean HIPAA is the regulation that keeps all of our data safe. So when you go to the doctor, a doctor is required to keep all of your medical information, you know, totally private. It’s not going to be given anywhere. It’s not going to leak away. That is the privacy regulations. Now, some of these platforms, you know, for example, like Woebot, uh Rosebud is one, which is a platform that’s more like a journaling service. Uh you know, they say they’re HIPAA compliant, but there’s no one regulating them. It’s not like the American Medical Association is regulating them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, that data, you don’t really know where it’s going. You’re trusting these companies who are profit driven. You know, I mean, hopefully Woebot and Rosebud, you know, are following their own promises to their consumers. But there might be other companies that, you know, definitely ChatGPT is not, you know, promising that they’re HIPAA compliant. And, you know, that information is being used, is being put out there to retrain the model. And so, you know, hopefully they’re not gonna sell your data to advertisers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, also, I mean, the kind of a worst-case scenario, this fortunately hasn’t happened yet, but, you know, what if your mental health information gets out there, an insurance company gets wind of that, and your premiums start going up because they know that you’re struggling with something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, again, that hasn’t happen yet. Those are sort of like the worst- case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But again, worst-case scenarios. Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Obviously, the priority of pretty much any for profit company is to monetize. But, do AI companies have any incentive to improve as more people turn to their products for therapy, even if they aren’t necessarily mental health specific chatbots? Um, you know, are there better safety measures, more transparency about data collection, especially given the Character AI lawsuit? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think they have that incentive. They also have the incentive to keep you hooked. So I think that’s the sort of like fine line. We’ve seen that with all social media, right? They’re getting a lot better at keeping our attention. AI companies have the same needs and incentives to keep people coming back. And so, you know, I think it’s gonna be a gray area and it’s going to be, unfortunately, like the social media companies, it’s gonna be really up to the creators of these products on whether or not they’re gonna have a really ethical orientation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite all of these issues, therapy is so inaccessible that unfortunately, AI chatbots might feel like the only immediate tool that people have when seeking treatment. How did we get here? Let’s open one last tab. The mental healthcare crisis. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You had mentioned earlier the state of mental health care. Why is it so hard to see a therapist? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, the demand for mental health services is really at an all-time high, and it’s surged even more, you know, since the pandemic began and continues to do so. I think there’s something like one in five Americans have some kind of a mental health issue, and yet they have a significant barrier to getting to a therapist. You know, I think it’s 55% of counties, people don’t have access to a psychotherapist or a social worker or a psychologist. They’re just aren’t any in that area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, you know, I think because of this issue that these sort of mental health deserts, AI is a kind of natural fill-in. You know, It’s available 24-7. You don’t need insurance to get there. You don’t have a high deductible. Uh, you don’t have to prove to anyone that, you know, that you have a mental health condition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You don’t get accepted. Uh, so it’s easy and accessible. And I think that it will mean that more and more people are going to use this and hopefully, they’ll be well-informed consumers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. You know, given the shortage of providers, and like you mentioned, insurance issues. Um, since the pandemic started, telehealth therapy has become pretty popular. But I’ve seen a lot of complaints about these kind of quick, one-size-fits-all mental health care platforms like BetterHelp, which matches users with Licensed Therapist or Cerebral, which sets users up with a psychiatrist that can prescribe medications like antidepressants or ADHD meds. And both of these services were created to, kind of fill this void that you’re talking about, but at the same time, they’re kind of plagued with their own issues. It seems like making therapy quick and accessible isn’t always as easy as it seems. What do you think? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there’s absolutely a role for telehealth. I think there’s absolutely a role for AI therapy. I think anyone would probably say that having a really heartfelt connection with a therapist in an office, live human, feels different than if you are talking to a screen. And the emotional repair that can happen in that session with a live human I think is different and potentially more profound than with a robot. That might change over time. You know, I don’t know how good these things are going to get. They already feel a little bit too good for my own comfort. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, but they might, they might get even better. You know, same thing, I think the telehealth model at this point is pretty early. I think that they are still refining how well those things work. I think it’s similar with AI therapy. And, you know, I think the, the tricky thing here as well with any of these technological solutions is that we are also living in a pretty isolated way in our lives right now. If you’re taking even like your therapy to a computer, that’s one less human that you’re interacting with. And maybe you’re, you know, mental health issues are because you’re dealing with isolation, with estrangement, with disconnection. Those feelings might even become more escalated if you’re, you know, using telehealth or using AI therapy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I saw both responses and reflections when I was reading these Reddit threads, you know, from people who were in rural places. I knew that they were feeling more isolated using an AI therapy and others who said, “you know, it was a godsend because I was so alone, at least someone was listening to me. ” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For your story on AI therapy, you talked to a bunch of psychologists and, you know, real-life human psychologists, um and, you know, someone from the American Psychological Association. Are human therapists concerned about being replaced by AI? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t hear that from them yet. Number one, they’re still really in high demand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I don’t think they’re feeling that crunch yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s still a shortage, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s still a huge shortage. And I think, they’re, they’re fairly confident that what they offer is different than what AI therapy offers. And, you know, they can pick up on subtle cues that AI, you know, can’t, say like body language or, you know, pace of speech. These things can reveal a lot about our mental health state, and AI can’t pick up on that stuff. So, and in the deeper bonds, the deeper attachment work that you might do in therapy, I think therapists are quite confident that they’re still better at that. Uh, so in this moment, I would say they’re not, they’re not especially worried. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve talked about the downsides of AI therapy pretty extensively. Um but, you had mentioned like that they can kind of be a tool in a bigger treatment plan while also seeing a real therapist. If someone is going to use AI therapy, how should they approach it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Yeah. I think, that’s the message I hope comes across in my reporting, is that, you know, there are these worst case scenarios. Again, I think that the consumer should be educated on how their data is going to be used and understand how the company operates so that they’re not sharing uh really vulnerable information. But I think as a sort of, you know, addition to your yoga, your meditation, your, uh, you know, walks in nature, I think AI can really be a self-regulation tool. And I think it can be used quite well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I talked to one company, Rosebud, which is a kind of journaling platform, which it asks you questions to kind of inspire you to express whatever’s going on and help you reflect. And it can follow a thread. So if you mentioned something two weeks ago about your relationship and what was going wrong, it will check in with you about what is happening and help you make sense of that. And I was on it. You know, I’m not a huge pen and paper person. You know, I don’t write anything anymore, so my arm hurts really quickly. And so, I enjoy, you know, I like just would pick up my phone and I would journal just, you know, talking to it and it would ask me questions and it felt, you know, fairly similar to a conversation with a friend. And I would always feel quite a bit better afterwards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in that sense, I think it can be quite helpful because, you know, maybe I’m in therapy once a week, but I’m having a panic attack on Monday night and my, you know, appointment is not until Thursday. I think in that sense, you know, it’s four o’clock in the morning. I can’t call a human therapist no matter what, even if I do have one. You know, to sit down and have the opportunity to have something that’s engaging me, um, I think can be really helpful. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m really curious, since you started reporting on this story, have you used ChatGPT, uh, not necessarily as a therapist, but you know, as this kind of mental health tool that you’re talking about since? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wish I had the positive spin to be like, “yes, I’m relying on it all the time.” You know, I didn’t and I don’t. Um, I felt a little bit like one more thing to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I felt similarly, you know, we talked about Lilly at the beginning of the story, and the reason that she stopped using Woebot was not because, you know, it had the crisis alert or it sort of like poorly dealt with her OCD, she got tired of being on her phone. She was like, “I didn’t want to be on my phone anymore. I wanted to talk to someone.”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel that. You know, that was, that was, kind of my reasoning, you know, because of my job, I’m on a computer, you know, nearly all day long, and I didn’t want one more thing on the computer or one more thing on my phone. I can imagine, you know, if I was going through a really tough time again, you know, turning to it. Um, luckily, I’m in a bit of a good moment, so I haven’t been using it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. You can unplug now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. I’m going to enjoy this moment and ride the wave of goodness. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks again to KQED’s Lesley McClurg: for talking with us about this story. You can check out more of her reporting on healthcare, including this story on AI Therapy at KQED.org. Again, AI therapy tools work best when they’re used in addition to treatment under a licensed professional. But if it’s the only option accessible to you right now, there are AI tools specifically designed for mental health and wellness that might be more useful than the general chatbots like ChatGPT or Claude. For now, let’s close these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. If you have feedback, or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
"blocks": [],
"excerpt": "We explore the promise and pitfalls of AI therapy — and what users should know about mental health chatbots.",
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"title": "My Therapist Is a Chatbot (Reload) | KQED",
"description": "What happens when your therapist is… a chatbot? For KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg, it started with a late-night spiral over dating. Instead of texting a friend, she opened ChatGPT and got the kind of calm, reassuring advice she needed. It worked… maybe a little too well.Lesley joins Morgan to dig into the rise of AI therapy, why so many people are turning to chatbots for emotional support, and what they might be risking in the process. These systems promise something traditional mental health care often can’t: instant, affordable, judgment-free access. But there are limits and, sometimes, serious consequences. Note: This episode includes discussions of suicide and mental health conditions. Listener discretion is advised. This episode first aired on April 23rd, 2025. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happens when your therapist is… a chatbot?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg, it started with a late-night spiral over dating. Instead of texting a friend, she opened ChatGPT and got the kind of calm, reassuring advice she needed. It worked… maybe a little too well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley joins Morgan to dig into the rise of AI therapy, why so many people are turning to chatbots for emotional support, and what they might be risking in the process. These systems promise something traditional mental health care often can’t: instant, affordable, judgment-free access. But there are limits and, sometimes, serious consequences. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Note:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This episode includes discussions of suicide and mental health conditions. Listener discretion is advised.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode first aired on April 23rd, 2025 \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4726760100\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/lesleymcclurg\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley McClurg\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em> health correspondent\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1996504/ai-replace-therapist-benefits-risks-unsettling-truths\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can AI Replace Your Therapist? The Benefits, Risks and Unsettling Truths\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lesley McClurg, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2025/04/07/nx-s1-5351312/artificial-intelligence-mental-health-therapy\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI therapist can see you now\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Katia Riddle, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NPR\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://spectrum.ieee.org/woebot\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woebot, a Mental-Health Chatbot, Tries Out Generative AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Sackett, Devin Harper, and Aaron Pavez, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">IEEE Spectrum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12057327/ai-prophets-and-spiritual-delusions\">AI Prophets and Spiritual Delusions\u003c/a> — \u003ci>Close All Tabs\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/urban-survival/202510/new-studies-reveal-mental-health-blindspots-of-ai-chatbots\">New Studies Reveal Mental Health Blindspots of AI Chatbots\u003c/a> — Marlynn Wei, \u003ci>Psychology Today\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/04/07/nx-s1-5771707/mental-health-care-workforce-artificial-intelligence-ai\">AI in the mental health care workforce is met with fear, pushback — and enthusiasm\u003c/a> — Rhitu Chatterjee, \u003ci>NPR\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey! You’re listening to Close All Tabs, and I’m Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">May is Mental Health Awareness Month. With the proliferation of AI tools over the last few years, many people have turned to chatbots for companionship, advice … and even therapy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It makes sense — healthcare in the US can be completely inaccessible, especially when it comes to mental health treatment. But in some cases, AI chatbots can put very vulnerable users in danger.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In light of that, mental health has been at the forefront of conversations about AI use. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today, for Mental Health Awareness Month, we’re re-airing an episode that explores that exact topic. A quick heads up: this episode includes discussion of suicide and mental health conditions, which may be distressing for some listeners. If you or someone you know needs support, we’ll have links to resources in the episode description.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I was going through a divorce and started dating after my divorce and hadn’t dated in many years and came home after a date one night and was just really anxious and kind of disheveled and needed some advice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was late at night and I had used ChatGPT for, you know, other things and found it pretty helpful and I thought, what about for this moment in my life? And so I asked Chat whether or not I should reach out to this person that I had just dated because I was feeling like the night hadn’t gone that well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was late at night. She didn’t want to bug a friend about this, and really, she was feeling pretty vulnerable. She didn’t want to be judged. And so, ChatGPT was right there, ready to cheerfully answer her questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was surprised that it was so good. I just remember after, you know, a few back and forths, I realized that really I was just nervous, really I just needed to take a deep breath. Basically I had created a big storm in my head. And Chat basically was like, “hey, chill, relax, it could have gone well. There’s another way this could have played out, not the sort of devastating reality that you’re playing out right now. Maybe give it a day or two and then reach out.” And so in that moment, it just sort of helped me take the gas off and come back into myself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was exactly what she needed to hear at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I didn’t text the person, which was the right call, and kind of used it as I warmed myself back up into the dating world, and it was really helpful. And so it made me then, as a reporter, start asking, “should I be telling this thing all about my love life? Is this a good idea, privacy-wise, et cetera?” And so that’s where it sort of seeded my reporting going forward. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley isn’t the only one turning to ChatGPT for therapy. If you’ve ever dealt with any health insurance company, you’re probably familiar with the hassle of getting care. And mental health care is especially inaccessible. AI chatbots though, they’re convenient, cost little to nothing to use, and in Lesley’s case, can actually be pretty helpful. But a lot of people are also wary of turning to AI for therapy, can you trust it? What are you risking when you share your most vulnerable thoughts with a chatbot? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Access to actual mental health resources has become so limited. Cost and insurance aside, there’s a shortage of licensed human mental health professionals across the country. But can AI therapy really replace actual therapists? Okay, new tab. Does AI therapy work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over the course of your reporting, did you meet anyone who actually used an AI chatbot for therapy? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually talked to quite a few people who used AI therapy and I went online and read a lot of Reddit threads because this is quite the popular topic. I heard more positive stories than negatives. As a reporter, I wanted to illustrate someone who kind of had a nuanced experience, you know, good and bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, Lesley found a woman named Lilly Payne:. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She had kind of the ideal story to illustrate that, yes, it helped her, but it wasn’t ideal. And so that was sort of like the character that I ended up, you know, focusing on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In your story, you mentioned that Lilly had turned to AI therapy um during the COVID lockdowns, which were a terrible time for a lot of us. But Lilly wasn’t just experiencing, you know, anxiety and depression and loneliness. Her situation was a little more complicated, right? Can you talk about that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean in her words, her life basically fell apart. She graduated from college, she had moved to New York City to pursue an arts career, was very excited. And if we can remember, you know, New York was sort of the epicenter of the early days of COVID. It was really bad. Lockdown was really scary and the hospitals were overflowing and it was not a good scene. And so she left her arts career, abandoned her dreams and moved back home, which was pretty painful, to her parents’ home in Kentucky. And she is sort of tucked away, and it just felt like a big failure. And she was really struggling with like, what’s next for my life? Where do I go from here? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was such a lonely time for so many people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Lilly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was not at a breaking point, but I wasn’t doing awesome. So I was like, “the more help, the better.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in all of that anxiety, she, you know, initially reached out and leaned on a lot of friends, but eventually she felt like she’d kind of worn those supports thin. And so she read about Woebot, this AI therapy platform in a health newsletter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I gave it a shot because I was like, why not? Everyone’s cooped up in their house. I will talk to this robot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Initially it was really helpful. It did help her calm herself. I think she said she, you know, even just having it in her pocket helped her feel more in control in her life. I think she relied on it quite a bit in those early days to kind of find her ground again and be able to focus on, you know, re-imagining a new life from there while she was back at home with her parents in Kentucky. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s worth noting that Woebot is a therapy-specific AI chatbot, and it doesn’t use generative AI to respond to users the way that other tools like ChatGPT, or Claude, or DeepSeek do. This means that its interactions with users are a bit more predictable. It’s also engineered to respond the way that a therapist might. So instead of immediately jumping into offering advice, Woebot asks specific questions to encourage users to reflect and do the inner work themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, it was designed by a psychologist. And so, you know, from that perspective, it it really is designed to focus on your mental health. The goal of Woebot is, you know, as a mental health tool, as a wellness tool, I think is how they market themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woebot is designed to use a set of techniques called cognitive behavioral therapy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, cognitive behavioral therapy helps you reframe your negative thoughts using specific exercises. And, you know, I think as any CBT, which is what it’s acronym is, it feels a little forced, but she did say it did help her reframe those negative thoughts and that she was able to think more more positively. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Can you talk about uh Lilly’s uh other diagnosis that maybe complicated this form of treatment? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She has obsessive-compulsive disorder, and sometimes that makes her fixate on worst-case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time when people think about OCD they think of, just the very cliche like, “oh, you can’t stop washing your hands, you’re afraid of germs.” While that is a very real subtype that people experience, typically OCD like manifests in really taboo intrusive thoughts, and then the physical compulsions stem from trying to keep those themes away. And so, logically, you can know that, like, this doesn’t make sense, it’s not actually happening, but it just, it, it’s not just in your head, like physically it feels so real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lilly is also diagnosed with anxiety and depression. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A symptom of depression is suicide ideation eventually, right? So she fixated on the idea that eventually because of her depression, that she may think about killing herself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My brain would be like, “Oh, you’ve struggled with depression in the past. There’s no saying that one day you won’t want to go through with suicide.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so she mentioned that she was worried about suicide in a session with Woebot. And Woebot came back and had a crisis alert and said, “hey, you better call the suicide hotline.” And she said, “no, no no, wait a second.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not experiencing suicidal inclinations, I’m just terrified that I will. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And luckily she knew that, she understood her disorder enough to know that nuance and to know what was happening in her brain because she had done so much previous therapy. But she said, you know, if she hadn’t really understood her disease, having that crisis alert come up may have even added more stress. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would have freaked out and been like, “oh my gosh, this this thing that is supposed to have this mental health knowledge thinks that I am suicidal. I must be suicidal, I must be a danger to myself.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, in defense of Woebot, they came back and said, “hey, we’re not, you know, specifically targeting or for people who have OCD. We really are just a wellness tool. “But her story illustrates where AI doesn’t necessarily have the nuance, the understanding — that a human, like a human therapist would have picked up on that. They would have understood that she had OCD and really understood the nuances of that, whereas in this case, Woebot didn’t. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. It sounds like Wobot was inadvertently validating this intrusive thought that she was having because she has OCD. And when you’re really depressed or anxious, it might be helpful for your feelings to be validated like that. But how does that compare to the recommended treatment for OCD? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean the recommended treatment for OCD is generally exposure therapy. So you expose yourself to whatever you’re scared of. And so in this case, a therapist would work with her in terms of exposing herself to those ideas, probably walk her through, you know, reality, et cetera, in a way that allows her to lean into her fears so that they’re not as scary and sort of wound up and keep going. And sort of overtake her. Whereas you, like a therapist wouldn’t stand up with a red flag and say, “Oh my God, you really are suicidal. Therefore you should call a hotline.” Right? Which is basically what Woebot did. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lilly’s case is just one example of the limits of AI therapy. Responding with a crisis alert wasn’t helpful for her specific needs, but it’s probably good that Woebot even has those guardrails in place. But what happens when AI chatbots go off script? How bad can it get? We’ll get into that when we come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New tab. AI therapy … worst case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Woebot can’t necessarily respond with the nuance of an actual human therapist. But it seems like it wasn’t giving Lilly bad advice. Um but let’s talk about examples of AI therapy doing the exact opposite of what it’s supposed to do. What happened with the National Eating Disorder Association hotline? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, that didn’t play out very well. They created a bot named Tessa and some of the users found that Tessa was giving them dieting advice. So these are folks \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh god. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who have, you know, anorexia, bulimia, and somehow Tessa’s wires got crossed and people were getting the exact advice that would be really dangerous for their eating disorders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sharon Maxwell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The recommendations that Tessa gave me was that I could lose one to two pounds per week, that I should eat no more than 2,000 calories in a day, that I should have a calorie deficit of 500 to 1,000 calories per day. All of which might sound benign to the general listener, however, to an individual with an eating disorder, the focus of weight loss really fuels the eating disorder. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Sharon Maxwell, an eating disorder recovery educator, speaking to NPR about her experience with Tessa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, NEDA, the National Eating Disorder Association, you know, pulled Tessa down and said, “this isn’t working very well.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it sounds like they just didn’t have that kind of guardrail in place. Like they didn’t anticipate that. Um, so even if Lilly didn’t really need Woebot to immediately jump into crisis mode, at least it had that guardrail to say, like, “hey, crisis.” But in the past, other AI chatbots have gotten into serious trouble for not responding to users’ red flags and just validating their responses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that happened in the case of Character AI, this AI app that lets users personalize an AI companion based on fictional characters, celebrities, historical figures, all that. Until a recent lawsuit, Character AI did not have any safety measures or disclaimers warning users that they weren’t talking to a real person. What led to this lawsuit? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, there was a 14-year-old who grew really attached to his character that he had created. Like you said, Character AI lets you create a character and then interact with that character. And, you know, not surprisingly, kind of like I did in my first experience with ChatGPT, it feels so good that you develop a little bit of an emotional connection. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so this 14-year-old did that over the course of several months. And then he started opening up about some of the distress that he was feeling. And the character, instead of steering, you know, this 14-year-old towards help, unfortunately the bot allegedly reinforced some suicidal thoughts and eventually the boy ended up taking his life. And so the lawsuit, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s terrible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly, it was really kind of horrific and it’s not the only one like this. There’s only a handful at this point, but it really is raising the red flag that these very empathetic responses are sort of like, you know parroting back, which is, again, what some AI does. Uh it can play out really, really poorly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In January 2026, Character.AI agreed to settle multiple lawsuits that alleged that the chatbot contributed to mental health issues among teenagers. Other companies have faced similar lawsuits, after several users died by suicide, allegedly at the encouragement of chatbots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what happened with the eating disorder hotline and Character AI, those are pretty extreme cases. Will most people actually experience those worst case scenarios? In your research, did you find anything about that? Or is it just like, are these just edge cases? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean we don’t have numbers yet. I think it’s really early in the arc of this technology. I think the experts are most worried about platforms that are like Character AI, where you are building a relationship with a character. In their defense, they’re not built as mental health tools, right? These are not marketing themselves as mental health tools. They are, you know, marketing themselves as, “hey, here, we’re going to give you a friend.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yet, you know, like a friend, like you and I probably do with our friends, we lean on our friends. We talk to our friends. We build emotional connections with our friends. We trust our friends for the right advice, right? And these are robots. So that relationship is not uh, you know, built on human connection. And like we can see it can go wrong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another concern that I have, you know, as a tech reporter is uh privacy. ChatGPT, for example, isn’t HIPAA compliant. Could you explain what HIPPA is and why it’s necessary with medical information? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean HIPAA is the regulation that keeps all of our data safe. So when you go to the doctor, a doctor is required to keep all of your medical information, you know, totally private. It’s not going to be given anywhere. It’s not going to leak away. That is the privacy regulations. Now, some of these platforms, you know, for example, like Woebot, uh Rosebud is one, which is a platform that’s more like a journaling service. Uh you know, they say they’re HIPAA compliant, but there’s no one regulating them. It’s not like the American Medical Association is regulating them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, that data, you don’t really know where it’s going. You’re trusting these companies who are profit driven. You know, I mean, hopefully Woebot and Rosebud, you know, are following their own promises to their consumers. But there might be other companies that, you know, definitely ChatGPT is not, you know, promising that they’re HIPAA compliant. And, you know, that information is being used, is being put out there to retrain the model. And so, you know, hopefully they’re not gonna sell your data to advertisers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, also, I mean, the kind of a worst-case scenario, this fortunately hasn’t happened yet, but, you know, what if your mental health information gets out there, an insurance company gets wind of that, and your premiums start going up because they know that you’re struggling with something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, again, that hasn’t happen yet. Those are sort of like the worst- case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But again, worst-case scenarios. Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Obviously, the priority of pretty much any for profit company is to monetize. But, do AI companies have any incentive to improve as more people turn to their products for therapy, even if they aren’t necessarily mental health specific chatbots? Um, you know, are there better safety measures, more transparency about data collection, especially given the Character AI lawsuit? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think they have that incentive. They also have the incentive to keep you hooked. So I think that’s the sort of like fine line. We’ve seen that with all social media, right? They’re getting a lot better at keeping our attention. AI companies have the same needs and incentives to keep people coming back. And so, you know, I think it’s gonna be a gray area and it’s going to be, unfortunately, like the social media companies, it’s gonna be really up to the creators of these products on whether or not they’re gonna have a really ethical orientation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite all of these issues, therapy is so inaccessible that unfortunately, AI chatbots might feel like the only immediate tool that people have when seeking treatment. How did we get here? Let’s open one last tab. The mental healthcare crisis. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You had mentioned earlier the state of mental health care. Why is it so hard to see a therapist? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, the demand for mental health services is really at an all-time high, and it’s surged even more, you know, since the pandemic began and continues to do so. I think there’s something like one in five Americans have some kind of a mental health issue, and yet they have a significant barrier to getting to a therapist. You know, I think it’s 55% of counties, people don’t have access to a psychotherapist or a social worker or a psychologist. They’re just aren’t any in that area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, you know, I think because of this issue that these sort of mental health deserts, AI is a kind of natural fill-in. You know, It’s available 24-7. You don’t need insurance to get there. You don’t have a high deductible. Uh, you don’t have to prove to anyone that, you know, that you have a mental health condition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You don’t get accepted. Uh, so it’s easy and accessible. And I think that it will mean that more and more people are going to use this and hopefully, they’ll be well-informed consumers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. You know, given the shortage of providers, and like you mentioned, insurance issues. Um, since the pandemic started, telehealth therapy has become pretty popular. But I’ve seen a lot of complaints about these kind of quick, one-size-fits-all mental health care platforms like BetterHelp, which matches users with Licensed Therapist or Cerebral, which sets users up with a psychiatrist that can prescribe medications like antidepressants or ADHD meds. And both of these services were created to, kind of fill this void that you’re talking about, but at the same time, they’re kind of plagued with their own issues. It seems like making therapy quick and accessible isn’t always as easy as it seems. What do you think? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there’s absolutely a role for telehealth. I think there’s absolutely a role for AI therapy. I think anyone would probably say that having a really heartfelt connection with a therapist in an office, live human, feels different than if you are talking to a screen. And the emotional repair that can happen in that session with a live human I think is different and potentially more profound than with a robot. That might change over time. You know, I don’t know how good these things are going to get. They already feel a little bit too good for my own comfort. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, but they might, they might get even better. You know, same thing, I think the telehealth model at this point is pretty early. I think that they are still refining how well those things work. I think it’s similar with AI therapy. And, you know, I think the, the tricky thing here as well with any of these technological solutions is that we are also living in a pretty isolated way in our lives right now. If you’re taking even like your therapy to a computer, that’s one less human that you’re interacting with. And maybe you’re, you know, mental health issues are because you’re dealing with isolation, with estrangement, with disconnection. Those feelings might even become more escalated if you’re, you know, using telehealth or using AI therapy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I saw both responses and reflections when I was reading these Reddit threads, you know, from people who were in rural places. I knew that they were feeling more isolated using an AI therapy and others who said, “you know, it was a godsend because I was so alone, at least someone was listening to me. ” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For your story on AI therapy, you talked to a bunch of psychologists and, you know, real-life human psychologists, um and, you know, someone from the American Psychological Association. Are human therapists concerned about being replaced by AI? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t hear that from them yet. Number one, they’re still really in high demand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I don’t think they’re feeling that crunch yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s still a shortage, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s still a huge shortage. And I think, they’re, they’re fairly confident that what they offer is different than what AI therapy offers. And, you know, they can pick up on subtle cues that AI, you know, can’t, say like body language or, you know, pace of speech. These things can reveal a lot about our mental health state, and AI can’t pick up on that stuff. So, and in the deeper bonds, the deeper attachment work that you might do in therapy, I think therapists are quite confident that they’re still better at that. Uh, so in this moment, I would say they’re not, they’re not especially worried. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve talked about the downsides of AI therapy pretty extensively. Um but, you had mentioned like that they can kind of be a tool in a bigger treatment plan while also seeing a real therapist. If someone is going to use AI therapy, how should they approach it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Yeah. I think, that’s the message I hope comes across in my reporting, is that, you know, there are these worst case scenarios. Again, I think that the consumer should be educated on how their data is going to be used and understand how the company operates so that they’re not sharing uh really vulnerable information. But I think as a sort of, you know, addition to your yoga, your meditation, your, uh, you know, walks in nature, I think AI can really be a self-regulation tool. And I think it can be used quite well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I talked to one company, Rosebud, which is a kind of journaling platform, which it asks you questions to kind of inspire you to express whatever’s going on and help you reflect. And it can follow a thread. So if you mentioned something two weeks ago about your relationship and what was going wrong, it will check in with you about what is happening and help you make sense of that. And I was on it. You know, I’m not a huge pen and paper person. You know, I don’t write anything anymore, so my arm hurts really quickly. And so, I enjoy, you know, I like just would pick up my phone and I would journal just, you know, talking to it and it would ask me questions and it felt, you know, fairly similar to a conversation with a friend. And I would always feel quite a bit better afterwards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in that sense, I think it can be quite helpful because, you know, maybe I’m in therapy once a week, but I’m having a panic attack on Monday night and my, you know, appointment is not until Thursday. I think in that sense, you know, it’s four o’clock in the morning. I can’t call a human therapist no matter what, even if I do have one. You know, to sit down and have the opportunity to have something that’s engaging me, um, I think can be really helpful. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m really curious, since you started reporting on this story, have you used ChatGPT, uh, not necessarily as a therapist, but you know, as this kind of mental health tool that you’re talking about since? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wish I had the positive spin to be like, “yes, I’m relying on it all the time.” You know, I didn’t and I don’t. Um, I felt a little bit like one more thing to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I felt similarly, you know, we talked about Lilly at the beginning of the story, and the reason that she stopped using Woebot was not because, you know, it had the crisis alert or it sort of like poorly dealt with her OCD, she got tired of being on her phone. She was like, “I didn’t want to be on my phone anymore. I wanted to talk to someone.”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel that. You know, that was, that was, kind of my reasoning, you know, because of my job, I’m on a computer, you know, nearly all day long, and I didn’t want one more thing on the computer or one more thing on my phone. I can imagine, you know, if I was going through a really tough time again, you know, turning to it. Um, luckily, I’m in a bit of a good moment, so I haven’t been using it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. You can unplug now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. I’m going to enjoy this moment and ride the wave of goodness. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks again to KQED’s Lesley McClurg: for talking with us about this story. You can check out more of her reporting on healthcare, including this story on AI Therapy at KQED.org. Again, AI therapy tools work best when they’re used in addition to treatment under a licensed professional. But if it’s the only option accessible to you right now, there are AI tools specifically designed for mental health and wellness that might be more useful than the general chatbots like ChatGPT or Claude. For now, let’s close these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. If you have feedback, or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"info": "The day's top stories from BBC News compiled twice daily in the week, once at weekends.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/BBC-World-Service-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
"link": "/radio/program/bbc-world-service",
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"rss": "https://podcasts.files.bbci.co.uk/p02nq0gn.rss"
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},
"californiareport": {
"id": "californiareport",
"title": "The California Report",
"tagline": "California, day by day",
"info": "KQED’s statewide radio news program providing daily coverage of issues, trends and public policy decisions.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-California-Report-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareport",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 8
},
"link": "/californiareport",
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}
},
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"title": "The California Report Magazine",
"tagline": "Your state, your stories",
"info": "Every week, The California Report Magazine takes you on a road trip for the ears: to visit the places and meet the people who make California unique. The in-depth storytelling podcast from the California Report.",
"airtime": "FRI 4:30pm-5pm, 6:30pm-7pm, 11pm-11:30pm",
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"order": 10
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM3NjkwNjk1OTAz",
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},
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"id": "city-arts",
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"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/cityartsandlecture-300x300.jpg",
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"airtime": "SUN 1pm-2pm, TUE 10pm, WED 1am",
"meta": {
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
}
},
"closealltabs": {
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"order": 1
},
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"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"meta": {
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
"airtime": "THU 10pm, FRI 1am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"meta": {
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
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"freakonomics-radio": {
"id": "freakonomics-radio",
"title": "Freakonomics Radio",
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"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/freakonomicsRadio.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
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},
"fresh-air": {
"id": "fresh-air",
"title": "Fresh Air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"here-and-now": {
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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},
"hidden-brain": {
"id": "hidden-brain",
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"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
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"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"order": 15
},
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 18
},
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}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
}
},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "On Our Watch from NPR and KQED",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"subscribe": {
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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