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"content": "\u003cp>The government has shut down and President Trump is withholding dedicated funds to blue states, demanding universities sign a pact to get federal funding and cracking down on free speech. We bring together a panel of reporters to sort through what is happening in Washington and discuss the ways the Trump administration is throwing out the playbook and creating new, and sometimes unlawful, norms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Alexis Madrigal. First up, we’re talking about the ongoing government shutdown. We’ve got three seasoned political reporters and commentators with us to help sort through the tumult of these last few days.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Molly Ball is a former political correspondent for The Wall Street Journal and author of the biography Pelosi. Philip Bump is a political commentator, former national columnist at The Washington Post, and author of The Aftermath: The Last Days of the Baby Boom and the Future of Power in America. And Domenico Montanaro is senior political editor and correspondent at NPR.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So first, Molly, I want you to just walk us through. You’ve seen previous shutdowns — how do these negotiations look to you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Molly Ball:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Kind of nonexistent at this point. And that’s what’s really striking. Usually, when the government shuts down — and even to be uttering the sentence, “usually when the government shuts down” is itself a mark of how normalized this situation has become — but normally, a shutdown is something that everybody wants to avoid. There’s a frantic scramble to try to head it off at the last minute.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Both parties, even if they’re cynically trying to create this outcome, at least want to create the impression that they’re trying as hard as they can not to. Instead, this has felt like we sort of sleepwalked into a shutdown. The writing was on the wall for weeks before we hit the deadline, and there was very little good-faith effort on either side to get us out of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even now, there doesn’t seem to be much urgency in Washington. There are going to be some show votes in the Senate today that could potentially shake something loose, but there’s very little relationship or trust between Democrats and Republicans on Capitol Hill. And that’s part of the reason for this shutdown.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right now, there’s very little negotiating happening to make it stop.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Philip Bump, I was thinking about how shutdowns have become normalized, like Molly was saying. When did this start to happen? When did it just become sort of the way the government works now, which is how it feels to me?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Philip Bump: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. We haven’t actually seen that many shutdowns, so each one is unique in its own way. Although I think this one is unique even among unique ones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The most famous shutdown within our lifetimes was the one during Bill Clinton’s presidency. That attracted a lot of attention, there was a lot of back and forth, and a lot of analysis of what the electoral effects were. But as American politics became more polarized, particularly starting about fifteen years ago, Republicans began to use the budget as a cudgel against a Democratic president. That became a pattern.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We saw a dramatic shutdown in 2013, when Republicans tried to block the Affordable Care Act — Obamacare — by pushing for a government shutdown in hopes of restricting funding. We saw shutdowns during Donald Trump’s first administration, when he himself rejected a funding bill because he wanted money for the wall.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, there’s been a series of shutdowns, but it correlates directly to the increased use of the budget as a partisan tool — a negotiating point and a point of pressure. Usually it’s Republicans using it against Democrats. What makes this case somewhat unique is that Democrats allowed this to happen, which they’ve avoided in the past under Republican presidents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what is it Democrats say they’re trying to protect here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Philip Bump: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Their argument is that they want to preserve funding. Again, it comes back to health care. They want to avoid increases in costs for people on the Affordable Care Act, to ease the expected rise in out-of-pocket costs. They argue Republicans aren’t coming to the table.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So in that sense, it’s almost a mirror image of 2013, again centered on health care. But for Democrats it’s also a broader fight. Their base wants to see them resist the administration, and this is a way they can demonstrate that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s listen to Speaker Mike Johnson. This was Sunday on NBC’s Meet the Press.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mike Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In a situation like this, where Senate Democrats have decided to turn the keys to the kingdom over to the White House, they have to make tough decisions. Russ Vought runs the Office of Management and Budget. He now has to look at all of the federal government — recognizing that funding streams have been turned off — and determine what are essential programs, policies, and personnel. That’s not a job he relishes, but he’s being required to do it by Chuck Schumer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was Speaker Mike Johnson on NBC’s Meet the Press. Domenico, isn’t this actually a job Russ Vought relishes? Wasn’t he the guy at OMB helping to implement cuts, involved in Project 2025 and its vision of a much smaller federal government?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Domenico Montanaro:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh yeah, for sure. I think Russ Vought does relish this. He was the lead author of Project 2025, about how to make government smaller.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is mostly a threat. There aren’t really new powers granted to the executive branch during a shutdown. The government has to decide who’s essential and who’s not, but that’s about it. There’s nothing new that allows them to suddenly fire people instead of furloughing them. Traditionally, people are furloughed, not randomly laid off — and then they get back pay, because eventually the government has to function.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So really, this is Republicans saying to Democrats: we know you like government, and if you don’t negotiate with us — or if you don’t fold — we’ll do all these things you think are bad, and blame it on you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Molly Ball:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s also a problem for Republicans. On the one hand, congressional leadership wants to blame Democrats for the shutdown. And it’s true — Democrats’ votes were needed to keep the government open. In the past, they’ve argued the other party had a responsibility not to make unrelated demands, particularly on health care.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But at the same time, you have the administration — especially the president — saying they like shutdowns, that it’s an opportunity to do things they want to do to the executive branch. That creates a split message. Some Republicans worry it undercuts their claim that Democrats are to blame.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Polling shows more people blame Republicans for the shutdown than Democrats. And if the president is out there talking about how great shutdowns are, Republicans risk squandering their political capital.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Domenico, I feel like I end up asking this question a lot. But is it even legal to lay off all these people?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Domenico Montanaro:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’ll see. The Supreme Court is back this week with a docket full of cases about things Trump has tried to do. Ultimately, whether it’s legal will be decided by the courts. Until then, the executive branch can do what it wants — until the courts say it can’t.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Philip, a listener on Bluesky writes: ACA premium subsidies were put in place in March 2021. The pandemic emergency was declared over in April 2023. Subsidies are set to expire this December. Democrats want to make them permanent. Why are they willing to die on this hill?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Philip Bump:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There are two ways to look at that. First, the Affordable Care Act is a signature piece of Democratic legislation. Few sweeping changes led by Democrats have survived the past several decades. The ACA has. It’s something Democrats are deeply invested in defending. And yes, people would feel real pain if out-of-pocket costs suddenly spiked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Second, politically, there are some allies who argue Democrats should just let the subsidies lapse — because the pain would land at Republicans’ feet. From the beginning, Democrats argued the ACA would be politically durable once people relied on it. 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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Alexis Madrigal. First up, we’re talking about the ongoing government shutdown. We’ve got three seasoned political reporters and commentators with us to help sort through the tumult of these last few days.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Molly Ball is a former political correspondent for The Wall Street Journal and author of the biography Pelosi. Philip Bump is a political commentator, former national columnist at The Washington Post, and author of The Aftermath: The Last Days of the Baby Boom and the Future of Power in America. And Domenico Montanaro is senior political editor and correspondent at NPR.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So first, Molly, I want you to just walk us through. You’ve seen previous shutdowns — how do these negotiations look to you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Molly Ball:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Kind of nonexistent at this point. And that’s what’s really striking. Usually, when the government shuts down — and even to be uttering the sentence, “usually when the government shuts down” is itself a mark of how normalized this situation has become — but normally, a shutdown is something that everybody wants to avoid. There’s a frantic scramble to try to head it off at the last minute.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Both parties, even if they’re cynically trying to create this outcome, at least want to create the impression that they’re trying as hard as they can not to. Instead, this has felt like we sort of sleepwalked into a shutdown. The writing was on the wall for weeks before we hit the deadline, and there was very little good-faith effort on either side to get us out of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even now, there doesn’t seem to be much urgency in Washington. There are going to be some show votes in the Senate today that could potentially shake something loose, but there’s very little relationship or trust between Democrats and Republicans on Capitol Hill. And that’s part of the reason for this shutdown.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right now, there’s very little negotiating happening to make it stop.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Philip Bump, I was thinking about how shutdowns have become normalized, like Molly was saying. When did this start to happen? When did it just become sort of the way the government works now, which is how it feels to me?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Philip Bump: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. We haven’t actually seen that many shutdowns, so each one is unique in its own way. Although I think this one is unique even among unique ones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The most famous shutdown within our lifetimes was the one during Bill Clinton’s presidency. That attracted a lot of attention, there was a lot of back and forth, and a lot of analysis of what the electoral effects were. But as American politics became more polarized, particularly starting about fifteen years ago, Republicans began to use the budget as a cudgel against a Democratic president. That became a pattern.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We saw a dramatic shutdown in 2013, when Republicans tried to block the Affordable Care Act — Obamacare — by pushing for a government shutdown in hopes of restricting funding. We saw shutdowns during Donald Trump’s first administration, when he himself rejected a funding bill because he wanted money for the wall.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, there’s been a series of shutdowns, but it correlates directly to the increased use of the budget as a partisan tool — a negotiating point and a point of pressure. Usually it’s Republicans using it against Democrats. What makes this case somewhat unique is that Democrats allowed this to happen, which they’ve avoided in the past under Republican presidents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what is it Democrats say they’re trying to protect here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Philip Bump: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Their argument is that they want to preserve funding. Again, it comes back to health care. They want to avoid increases in costs for people on the Affordable Care Act, to ease the expected rise in out-of-pocket costs. They argue Republicans aren’t coming to the table.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So in that sense, it’s almost a mirror image of 2013, again centered on health care. But for Democrats it’s also a broader fight. Their base wants to see them resist the administration, and this is a way they can demonstrate that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s listen to Speaker Mike Johnson. This was Sunday on NBC’s Meet the Press.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mike Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In a situation like this, where Senate Democrats have decided to turn the keys to the kingdom over to the White House, they have to make tough decisions. Russ Vought runs the Office of Management and Budget. He now has to look at all of the federal government — recognizing that funding streams have been turned off — and determine what are essential programs, policies, and personnel. That’s not a job he relishes, but he’s being required to do it by Chuck Schumer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was Speaker Mike Johnson on NBC’s Meet the Press. Domenico, isn’t this actually a job Russ Vought relishes? Wasn’t he the guy at OMB helping to implement cuts, involved in Project 2025 and its vision of a much smaller federal government?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Domenico Montanaro:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh yeah, for sure. I think Russ Vought does relish this. He was the lead author of Project 2025, about how to make government smaller.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is mostly a threat. There aren’t really new powers granted to the executive branch during a shutdown. The government has to decide who’s essential and who’s not, but that’s about it. There’s nothing new that allows them to suddenly fire people instead of furloughing them. Traditionally, people are furloughed, not randomly laid off — and then they get back pay, because eventually the government has to function.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So really, this is Republicans saying to Democrats: we know you like government, and if you don’t negotiate with us — or if you don’t fold — we’ll do all these things you think are bad, and blame it on you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Molly Ball:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s also a problem for Republicans. On the one hand, congressional leadership wants to blame Democrats for the shutdown. And it’s true — Democrats’ votes were needed to keep the government open. In the past, they’ve argued the other party had a responsibility not to make unrelated demands, particularly on health care.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But at the same time, you have the administration — especially the president — saying they like shutdowns, that it’s an opportunity to do things they want to do to the executive branch. That creates a split message. Some Republicans worry it undercuts their claim that Democrats are to blame.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Polling shows more people blame Republicans for the shutdown than Democrats. And if the president is out there talking about how great shutdowns are, Republicans risk squandering their political capital.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Domenico, I feel like I end up asking this question a lot. But is it even legal to lay off all these people?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Domenico Montanaro:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’ll see. The Supreme Court is back this week with a docket full of cases about things Trump has tried to do. Ultimately, whether it’s legal will be decided by the courts. Until then, the executive branch can do what it wants — until the courts say it can’t.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Philip, a listener on Bluesky writes: ACA premium subsidies were put in place in March 2021. The pandemic emergency was declared over in April 2023. Subsidies are set to expire this December. Democrats want to make them permanent. Why are they willing to die on this hill?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Philip Bump:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There are two ways to look at that. First, the Affordable Care Act is a signature piece of Democratic legislation. Few sweeping changes led by Democrats have survived the past several decades. The ACA has. It’s something Democrats are deeply invested in defending. And yes, people would feel real pain if out-of-pocket costs suddenly spiked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Second, politically, there are some allies who argue Democrats should just let the subsidies lapse — because the pain would land at Republicans’ feet. From the beginning, Democrats argued the ACA would be politically durable once people relied on it. So some say: let it lapse, let people feel the costs, and let Republicans take the blame.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But fundamentally, Democrats don’t want people to face those costs, especially for this legislation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re talking about the government shutdown and the political battle that underlies it. Our guests are Philip Bump, political commentator and former Washington Post columnist; Molly Ball, former Wall Street Journal political correspondent and author of Pelosi; and Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor at NPR.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’d love to hear from you if you’ve been impacted by this government shutdown — and what advice you might have for Democrats. 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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"mindshift": {
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"order": 12
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
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"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"pri-the-world": {
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"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
"radiolab": {
"id": "radiolab",
"title": "Radiolab",
"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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