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"title": "Google’s Once Grand Vision for Downtown West in San José Still on Hold (Apparently)",
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"content": "\u003cp>Nearly a decade has passed since \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-jose\">San José\u003c/a> agreed to sell more than $110 million worth of land to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/google\">Google\u003c/a>, to support the tech giant’s plans to transform a flagging industrial area of downtown into a vibrant village filled with gleaming new offices, apartments, hotels, shops and parks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To date, almost none of the grand development plans — which city and business leaders praised at the time as a once-in-a-generation economic opportunity for the self-proclaimed capital of Silicon Valley — have come to fruition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google has instead laid a thick coat of varnish, both literal and metaphorical, over portions of roughly 80 acres near Diridon Station and the SAP Center, a swath of land it dubbed Downtown West. But the Mountain View-based company has shared scant details publicly about its current timeline or strategy for the collection of land and buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The void has left those living, working or investing here in limbo — without a clear idea of whether a full-blown mixed-use neighborhood will materialize and unable to bank on it when making personal and business decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It seems, quite frankly, pretty long ago where we were promised all of this,” said Alan “Gumby” Marques, the past board president and interim CEO of the San José Downtown Association at the time of an interview in December. “As much as I would like to see that happen, I’ve kind of moved on. I don’t have any dependency on Google coming in and building the campus that they had planned.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google declined a phone interview request from KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001241\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001241\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Google’s Bay View campus in Mountain View on June 16, 2022. \u003ccite>(Zhang Yi/VCG via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In emailed comments, a Google spokesperson did not clearly answer questions about whether it still intends to move forward with the development plans in San José, signaling that it is still evaluating the company’s real estate needs as a whole.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The company said it has already brought new social activities and gathering spaces to the long-overlooked area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Large endeavors like Downtown West can take multiple decades to complete, and can ebb and flow over the years, Google spokesperson Ryan Lamont said, adding that the company still communicates with developers to evaluate potential future work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some business advocates and residents say they still believe Google intends to eventually build out the area, noting the company hasn’t sold any of the hundreds of millions of dollars worth of land it purchased from the city and private owners.[aside postID=news_12066245 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-BART-SILICON-VALLEY-TOUR-MD-03-KQED.jpg']“I think at some point in time in history, they plan on following through,” said Walter Wilson, a co-founder of the Minority Business Consortium and longtime civil rights advocate. His organization was part of a now-inactive group that provided input to Google about its plans for the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was really going. And then all of a sudden it just didn’t,” Wilson said of the development momentum. “I’ve talked to some people at Google, and they say that this is a process that they’re still committed to. It’s not a matter of if, but when.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What’s clear to anyone familiar with the area is that the project has been pushed far beyond its original timeline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The San José City Council agreed to sell Google nearly a dozen acres of land in 2018, and the company later indicated some of the first buildings could be completed as soon as 2023 or 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Colorful renderings presented by the company featured an “urban destination” touting more than 7 million square feet of office space, and at least 4,000 new homes in an area in desperate need of housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It also envisioned 500,000 square feet of mixed uses, such as retail shops, cultural and art spaces and hotels, along with 15 acres of parks and plazas. Between 2022 and 2024, the company demolished older structures, including the remnants of an old hardware store and a longtime \u003ca href=\"https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/08/01/farewell-to-pattys-inn-a-san-jose-bar-with-character/\">neighborhood bar called Patty’s Inn\u003c/a> that slung beer and other beverages for nearly 90 years, to make way for what was to come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But with the lack of any new construction following those demolition efforts, some people have lost hope for a drastically reshaped neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069845\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069845\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-01-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-01-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A sign for proposed development in front of San José Diridon Station in San José on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“To be honest, I’m not counting on it, you know?” said Jay Meduri, the owner of Poor House Bistro, a Cajun- and Italian-inspired restaurant that operated for years on the corner of Barack Obama Boulevard and San Fernando Street, before he sold the site to Google.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The company helped him relocate the restaurant to a new location in Little Italy in 2022, where he formally reopened in 2023 after operating temporarily out of food trucks and cloud kitchens. He said most of the people he used to communicate with at Google have moved on or been laid off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meduri said he has no hard feelings toward Google, but he does get a bit wistful sometimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I have to say it’s bittersweet when I drive by there every day, and I used to see where we were located and now that’s completely dug out and getting leveled out. And then Patty’s Inn, which was across the street and kind of a historic staple to San José — now they have containers,” he said.[aside postID=news_12068653 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/IMG_6335.jpg']“Who knows when Google Downtown West is going to be completed. But hopefully it’s while I’m still operating the restaurant and can enjoy all these visions that I saw of making this Downtown West a hopping spot, right? So, it remains to be seen when that’s gonna happen or if it happens,” Meduri said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite the lack of action, project supporters, including current and former city officials and business boosters, say they’re confident Google is still committed to the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Congressman Sam Liccardo, who spearheaded San José’s deals with Google when he was mayor from 2015 through 2022, said the city has already gained “enormous benefit” from the tech giant’s presence and its land-buying spree, which \u003ca href=\"https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/09/16/google-village-downtown-san-jose-property-value-jump-real-estate-tech/\">some estimates\u003c/a> have pegged at several hundred million dollars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The properties the company bought have significantly increased in assessed value, boosting the tax base for the city and county. Google also donated $12.5 million to nonprofits and community-serving organizations and programs, out of a plan to eventually pour $200 million into such efforts, and is bringing in new tenants to give life to the area, Liccardo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A whole host of things [are] bringing people into a part of downtown where a few years ago, you could shoot a cannon down the street and not hit anybody,” Liccardo said. “You’re now starting to see activity and that will make, obviously, that part of the downtown much more attractive for future office tenants.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"mceTemp\">\u003c/div>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069848\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069848\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-04-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-04-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The former Kearny Pattern Works and Foundry in San José on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Google, through a subcontractor, has boosted what it calls the Creekside area with the recent opening of a beer garden run by local favorite Hapa’s Brewing Company. It has also repurposed a parking lot where Patty’s Inn once stood for events centered around food trucks, including art, fitness, cultural gatherings and hockey watch parties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Preservation Action Council of San José, which pushes for historic preservation, education and appreciation in the city, is opening a rummage and reuse hub soon in a former warehouse, and has plans for a racket sport facility where Poor House Bistro once stood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Liccardo said it shouldn’t come as a surprise that Google is not putting shovels in the ground for new offices in the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic, which upended work culture and contributed to massive office space vacancies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the third quarter of 2025, national vacancy rates were nearly 19%, according to\u003ca href=\"https://www.cbre.com/insights/figures/silicon-valley-office-snapshot-q3-2025\"> commercial real estate firm CBRE\u003c/a>. While the Silicon Valley office market was about 17%, in San José’s downtown core, it was 32%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069846\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069846\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-02-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Templo La Hermosa is boarded up and behind a chain link fence in San José on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Google has tried to do something and ran headfirst into a global pandemic. And like virtually every other entity that planned to build offices or office expansion, they put the brakes on their plan. And I expect those brakes will be in place for several years,” Liccardo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Liccardo said he thinks Google is “going to act like any landowner would at a time of great economic uncertainty,” and may simply sit on the land until it’s clear they need more office space. “And that’s certainly not now, and it’s probably not going to be next year either,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While the potential expansion of the artificial intelligence-driven economy could push Google’s original development plans into reality, it’s also possible the company may need to “reimagine” uses for the land to skew more toward housing, Liccardo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bert Weaver, a board member of the Delmas Park Neighborhood Association, representing residents whose homes abut Google’s planned village, said he thinks the company has been a good neighbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said the company listened to input from residents and local organizations, maintains and secures the parking lots and buildings it owns, and puts on events at the Creekside area that are “very well attended.” Even if the development has stalled for now, Weaver said he’s “cautiously optimistic” the plans will eventually shape up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069857\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069857\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-16-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-16-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-16-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-16-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A sign for Creekside San José in front of the lot where the Poor House stood in San José on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I mean, I hear occasional comments from neighbors that ‘No, Google is never going to come here,’ and all that. But I really don’t feel that way. And a number of my friends, a number of leaders of our group, feel the same way, that one day they will. As business improves, things will begin to happen,” Weaver said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said the neighborhood association leaders had a meeting with a Google representative in October, where no timelines were shared, but the company “sort of tried to assuage our fears and remind us that the bad rumors are not necessarily true, but, you know, they’re still there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Hannah Coffee, a cafe across from SAP Center, customers are mostly neighborhood residents and people who work nearby at local businesses or for the San José Sharks, according to Andrew Harms, a manager at the shop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Harms said that since he moved to the area about three years ago, he has heard a lot about the Google development.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069859\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069859\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-19-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-19-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-19-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-19-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A sign on a fence commemorating the Stephen’s Meat Products sign in San José on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The privatization of any amount of space here is always, I think, a concerning thing to people, whether or not it affects their day-to-day lives, because it’ll change the landscape of the city forever, potentially,” Harms said. When the project was moving through the city approval process years ago, many residents and community organizations expressed concerns about gentrification and whether the development would benefit some while hurting others. But more jobs, housing, liveliness and gathering spaces would be a net benefit for the area, he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, the lack of substantial progress on the plans has been noticeable, he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s strange to hand the golden keys, so to speak, to Google and have them do basically nothing with the space,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jen Baker, San José’s director of economic development, who came to the city last summer from the Pacific Northwest, sees the area with fresh eyes. She expressed optimism about the potential of not only Downtown West, but the broader 250-acre Diridon Station area, where the city has envisioned millions more square feet of office space and up to 12,000 homes, including Google’s original plans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069860\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069860\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-21-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-21-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-21-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-21-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">One of three Victorian-era homes on W. Julian Street in San José now owned by Google that could eventually be relocated as part of the company’s development plans for the area on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“It’s really a unique and amazing site and space. How many West Coast cities have potentially developable acreage that is in downtown or downtown adjacent to really accomplish a major vision?” Baker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The pandemic’s effects on the economy and office markets have meant that projects didn’t move at the pace many were hoping for, Baker said, but she sees “an amazing canvas of opportunity” there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I realize that the timeline for people is not what was anticipated,” Baker said, “but I’m very bullish that something amazing will be realized.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Google’s Once Grand Vision for Downtown West in San José Still on Hold (Apparently) | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Nearly a decade has passed since \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-jose\">San José\u003c/a> agreed to sell more than $110 million worth of land to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/google\">Google\u003c/a>, to support the tech giant’s plans to transform a flagging industrial area of downtown into a vibrant village filled with gleaming new offices, apartments, hotels, shops and parks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To date, almost none of the grand development plans — which city and business leaders praised at the time as a once-in-a-generation economic opportunity for the self-proclaimed capital of Silicon Valley — have come to fruition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google has instead laid a thick coat of varnish, both literal and metaphorical, over portions of roughly 80 acres near Diridon Station and the SAP Center, a swath of land it dubbed Downtown West. But the Mountain View-based company has shared scant details publicly about its current timeline or strategy for the collection of land and buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The void has left those living, working or investing here in limbo — without a clear idea of whether a full-blown mixed-use neighborhood will materialize and unable to bank on it when making personal and business decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It seems, quite frankly, pretty long ago where we were promised all of this,” said Alan “Gumby” Marques, the past board president and interim CEO of the San José Downtown Association at the time of an interview in December. “As much as I would like to see that happen, I’ve kind of moved on. I don’t have any dependency on Google coming in and building the campus that they had planned.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google declined a phone interview request from KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001241\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001241\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Google’s Bay View campus in Mountain View on June 16, 2022. \u003ccite>(Zhang Yi/VCG via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In emailed comments, a Google spokesperson did not clearly answer questions about whether it still intends to move forward with the development plans in San José, signaling that it is still evaluating the company’s real estate needs as a whole.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The company said it has already brought new social activities and gathering spaces to the long-overlooked area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Large endeavors like Downtown West can take multiple decades to complete, and can ebb and flow over the years, Google spokesperson Ryan Lamont said, adding that the company still communicates with developers to evaluate potential future work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some business advocates and residents say they still believe Google intends to eventually build out the area, noting the company hasn’t sold any of the hundreds of millions of dollars worth of land it purchased from the city and private owners.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“I think at some point in time in history, they plan on following through,” said Walter Wilson, a co-founder of the Minority Business Consortium and longtime civil rights advocate. His organization was part of a now-inactive group that provided input to Google about its plans for the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was really going. And then all of a sudden it just didn’t,” Wilson said of the development momentum. “I’ve talked to some people at Google, and they say that this is a process that they’re still committed to. It’s not a matter of if, but when.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What’s clear to anyone familiar with the area is that the project has been pushed far beyond its original timeline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The San José City Council agreed to sell Google nearly a dozen acres of land in 2018, and the company later indicated some of the first buildings could be completed as soon as 2023 or 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Colorful renderings presented by the company featured an “urban destination” touting more than 7 million square feet of office space, and at least 4,000 new homes in an area in desperate need of housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It also envisioned 500,000 square feet of mixed uses, such as retail shops, cultural and art spaces and hotels, along with 15 acres of parks and plazas. Between 2022 and 2024, the company demolished older structures, including the remnants of an old hardware store and a longtime \u003ca href=\"https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/08/01/farewell-to-pattys-inn-a-san-jose-bar-with-character/\">neighborhood bar called Patty’s Inn\u003c/a> that slung beer and other beverages for nearly 90 years, to make way for what was to come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But with the lack of any new construction following those demolition efforts, some people have lost hope for a drastically reshaped neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069845\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069845\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-01-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-01-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A sign for proposed development in front of San José Diridon Station in San José on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“To be honest, I’m not counting on it, you know?” said Jay Meduri, the owner of Poor House Bistro, a Cajun- and Italian-inspired restaurant that operated for years on the corner of Barack Obama Boulevard and San Fernando Street, before he sold the site to Google.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The company helped him relocate the restaurant to a new location in Little Italy in 2022, where he formally reopened in 2023 after operating temporarily out of food trucks and cloud kitchens. He said most of the people he used to communicate with at Google have moved on or been laid off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meduri said he has no hard feelings toward Google, but he does get a bit wistful sometimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I have to say it’s bittersweet when I drive by there every day, and I used to see where we were located and now that’s completely dug out and getting leveled out. And then Patty’s Inn, which was across the street and kind of a historic staple to San José — now they have containers,” he said.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“Who knows when Google Downtown West is going to be completed. But hopefully it’s while I’m still operating the restaurant and can enjoy all these visions that I saw of making this Downtown West a hopping spot, right? So, it remains to be seen when that’s gonna happen or if it happens,” Meduri said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite the lack of action, project supporters, including current and former city officials and business boosters, say they’re confident Google is still committed to the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Congressman Sam Liccardo, who spearheaded San José’s deals with Google when he was mayor from 2015 through 2022, said the city has already gained “enormous benefit” from the tech giant’s presence and its land-buying spree, which \u003ca href=\"https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/09/16/google-village-downtown-san-jose-property-value-jump-real-estate-tech/\">some estimates\u003c/a> have pegged at several hundred million dollars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The properties the company bought have significantly increased in assessed value, boosting the tax base for the city and county. Google also donated $12.5 million to nonprofits and community-serving organizations and programs, out of a plan to eventually pour $200 million into such efforts, and is bringing in new tenants to give life to the area, Liccardo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A whole host of things [are] bringing people into a part of downtown where a few years ago, you could shoot a cannon down the street and not hit anybody,” Liccardo said. “You’re now starting to see activity and that will make, obviously, that part of the downtown much more attractive for future office tenants.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"mceTemp\">\u003c/div>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069848\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069848\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-04-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-04-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The former Kearny Pattern Works and Foundry in San José on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Google, through a subcontractor, has boosted what it calls the Creekside area with the recent opening of a beer garden run by local favorite Hapa’s Brewing Company. It has also repurposed a parking lot where Patty’s Inn once stood for events centered around food trucks, including art, fitness, cultural gatherings and hockey watch parties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Preservation Action Council of San José, which pushes for historic preservation, education and appreciation in the city, is opening a rummage and reuse hub soon in a former warehouse, and has plans for a racket sport facility where Poor House Bistro once stood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Liccardo said it shouldn’t come as a surprise that Google is not putting shovels in the ground for new offices in the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic, which upended work culture and contributed to massive office space vacancies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the third quarter of 2025, national vacancy rates were nearly 19%, according to\u003ca href=\"https://www.cbre.com/insights/figures/silicon-valley-office-snapshot-q3-2025\"> commercial real estate firm CBRE\u003c/a>. While the Silicon Valley office market was about 17%, in San José’s downtown core, it was 32%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069846\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069846\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-02-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Templo La Hermosa is boarded up and behind a chain link fence in San José on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Google has tried to do something and ran headfirst into a global pandemic. And like virtually every other entity that planned to build offices or office expansion, they put the brakes on their plan. And I expect those brakes will be in place for several years,” Liccardo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Liccardo said he thinks Google is “going to act like any landowner would at a time of great economic uncertainty,” and may simply sit on the land until it’s clear they need more office space. “And that’s certainly not now, and it’s probably not going to be next year either,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While the potential expansion of the artificial intelligence-driven economy could push Google’s original development plans into reality, it’s also possible the company may need to “reimagine” uses for the land to skew more toward housing, Liccardo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bert Weaver, a board member of the Delmas Park Neighborhood Association, representing residents whose homes abut Google’s planned village, said he thinks the company has been a good neighbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said the company listened to input from residents and local organizations, maintains and secures the parking lots and buildings it owns, and puts on events at the Creekside area that are “very well attended.” Even if the development has stalled for now, Weaver said he’s “cautiously optimistic” the plans will eventually shape up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069857\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069857\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-16-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-16-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-16-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-16-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A sign for Creekside San José in front of the lot where the Poor House stood in San José on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I mean, I hear occasional comments from neighbors that ‘No, Google is never going to come here,’ and all that. But I really don’t feel that way. And a number of my friends, a number of leaders of our group, feel the same way, that one day they will. As business improves, things will begin to happen,” Weaver said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said the neighborhood association leaders had a meeting with a Google representative in October, where no timelines were shared, but the company “sort of tried to assuage our fears and remind us that the bad rumors are not necessarily true, but, you know, they’re still there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Hannah Coffee, a cafe across from SAP Center, customers are mostly neighborhood residents and people who work nearby at local businesses or for the San José Sharks, according to Andrew Harms, a manager at the shop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Harms said that since he moved to the area about three years ago, he has heard a lot about the Google development.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069859\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069859\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-19-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-19-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-19-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-19-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A sign on a fence commemorating the Stephen’s Meat Products sign in San José on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The privatization of any amount of space here is always, I think, a concerning thing to people, whether or not it affects their day-to-day lives, because it’ll change the landscape of the city forever, potentially,” Harms said. When the project was moving through the city approval process years ago, many residents and community organizations expressed concerns about gentrification and whether the development would benefit some while hurting others. But more jobs, housing, liveliness and gathering spaces would be a net benefit for the area, he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, the lack of substantial progress on the plans has been noticeable, he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s strange to hand the golden keys, so to speak, to Google and have them do basically nothing with the space,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jen Baker, San José’s director of economic development, who came to the city last summer from the Pacific Northwest, sees the area with fresh eyes. She expressed optimism about the potential of not only Downtown West, but the broader 250-acre Diridon Station area, where the city has envisioned millions more square feet of office space and up to 12,000 homes, including Google’s original plans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069860\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069860\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-21-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-21-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-21-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-21-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">One of three Victorian-era homes on W. Julian Street in San José now owned by Google that could eventually be relocated as part of the company’s development plans for the area on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“It’s really a unique and amazing site and space. How many West Coast cities have potentially developable acreage that is in downtown or downtown adjacent to really accomplish a major vision?” Baker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The pandemic’s effects on the economy and office markets have meant that projects didn’t move at the pace many were hoping for, Baker said, but she sees “an amazing canvas of opportunity” there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I realize that the timeline for people is not what was anticipated,” Baker said, “but I’m very bullish that something amazing will be realized.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Santa Cruz the First in California to Terminate Its Contract With Flock Safety",
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"content": "\u003cp>Santa Cruz has terminated its contract with Flock Safety, the automated license plate reader operator, over data privacy concerns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Santa Cruz City Council voted 6-1 on Tuesday to terminate the city’s contract with Flock, citing reports that the city’s data has been accessed by out-of-state agencies, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12066989/california-cities-double-down-on-license-plate-readers-as-federal-surveillance-grows?utm_source=chatgpt.com\">at a time\u003c/a> when the Trump administration is pursuing an increasingly aggressive immigration enforcement agenda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“For us, the threat to our civil liberties was greater than any benefit we could get from the flawed product,” said Mayor Fred Keeley, who voted against the Flock contract in 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re not interested, as they continue to develop their product, to be an experiment for a system which appears to have enormously big holes in it that they discover every day and try to patch to fix,” he said, adding he doesn’t fault the Santa Cruz Police Department.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5003726529\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003cbr>\n \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last November, Santa Cruz police\u003ca href=\"https://www.santacruzsentinel.com/2025/11/18/santa-cruz-pauses-participation-in-flocks-statewide-sharing-portal/\"> Chief Bernie Escalante confirmed\u003c/a> the city’s Flock data had been accessed by out-of-state agencies, prompting city officials to \u003ca href=\"https://lookout.co/city-of-santa-cruz-pauses-statewide-license-plate-data-sharing-citing-flock-safetys-violation-of-california-law/story\">temporarily limit\u003c/a> outside agencies’ access to the city’s license plate reader data and to review its agreement with Flock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“California for 10 years has prohibited the sharing of license plate data out of state. Ten years!” said Peter Gelblum, chair of the ACLU’s Santa Cruz County Chapter, told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066350\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1760px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066350\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/flock-camera-6936dca8e38fe.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1760\" height=\"1084\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/flock-camera-6936dca8e38fe.jpg 1760w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/flock-camera-6936dca8e38fe-160x99.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/flock-camera-6936dca8e38fe-1536x946.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1760px) 100vw, 1760px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Flock camera at Fashion Valley Mall cast in silhouette on Oct. 27, 2025. \u003ccite>(Scott Rodd/KPBS)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>According to Gelblum and other civil liberties advocates, Santa Cruz is the first city in California to end its Flock contract. He credited the Trump administration’s immigration policies for dialing up the sense of urgency in the sanctuary city, as well as data compiled by the recently formed grassroots group \u003ca href=\"https://www.gettheflockout.org\">Get the Flock Out\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They laid out a case that included the finding that, between June and October 2025, state agencies\u003ca href=\"https://lookout.co/anti-flock-group-finds-that-state-agencies-accessed-scpd-camera-data-thousands-of-times-on-feds-behalf-since-mid-2024/story\"> accessed Santa Cruz camera data roughly 4,000 times\u003c/a> on behalf of federal law enforcement, including U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, or ICE, in violation of California’s SB 34.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Under SB 34, California law enforcement agencies are required to adopt detailed usage and privacy policies governing license plate reader data, restrict access to authorized purposes, and regularly audit searches to prevent misuse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And yet, the typical standard Flock contract, which the agencies in Santa Cruz County all signed, enables nationwide sharing, and nationwide sharing was going on the entire time,” Gelblum said.[aside postID=news_12066989 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-License-Plate-Readers-01-KQED.jpg']A Flock spokesman told KQED the company has always been willing to comply with requests from law enforcement agencies to shut down outside access to data, to ensure compliance with state and local laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trevor Chandler, director of public affairs for Flock, said the company is committed to honoring the values of every community, so that their civil liberty concerns “don’t have to come at the expense of community safety. All of those tools to customize sharing … can be customized at any moment, for any reason, by any city.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though precise tallies differ, civil liberties advocates say roughly 30 municipalities nationwide have recently canceled their contracts with Flock. But Chandler said Flock doesn’t feel threatened by the increased scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We saw Oakland put their program on pause, then \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12066989/california-cities-double-down-on-license-plate-readers-as-federal-surveillance-grows\">went on to reauthorize it\u003c/a>. We saw San Diego put their program on pause, customized safety features, then reauthorized it. So if the conversation with Santa Cruz comes back, we’re happy to have that conversation,” Chandler said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Santa Cruz first signed its contract with Flock in 2024, and it was scheduled to expire on March 27. Tuesday’s vote allows the city to terminate the agreement with 30 days’ notice, or Feb. 12 at the earliest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Santa Cruz got it right,” Sarah Hamid, director of strategic campaigns with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, wrote KQED. “Santa Cruz joins nearly two dozen jurisdictions in 2025 that canceled or rejected Flock contracts by exercising procurement power — local democracy’s most underutilized tool. These communities recognized that Flock’s surveillance risks are difficult to adequately mitigate through policy alone, and chose instead to invest in public safety approaches that don’t require mass surveillance infrastructure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Santa Cruz has terminated its contract with Flock Safety, the automated license plate reader operator, over data privacy concerns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Santa Cruz City Council voted 6-1 on Tuesday to terminate the city’s contract with Flock, citing reports that the city’s data has been accessed by out-of-state agencies, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12066989/california-cities-double-down-on-license-plate-readers-as-federal-surveillance-grows?utm_source=chatgpt.com\">at a time\u003c/a> when the Trump administration is pursuing an increasingly aggressive immigration enforcement agenda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“For us, the threat to our civil liberties was greater than any benefit we could get from the flawed product,” said Mayor Fred Keeley, who voted against the Flock contract in 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re not interested, as they continue to develop their product, to be an experiment for a system which appears to have enormously big holes in it that they discover every day and try to patch to fix,” he said, adding he doesn’t fault the Santa Cruz Police Department.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5003726529\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003cbr>\n \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last November, Santa Cruz police\u003ca href=\"https://www.santacruzsentinel.com/2025/11/18/santa-cruz-pauses-participation-in-flocks-statewide-sharing-portal/\"> Chief Bernie Escalante confirmed\u003c/a> the city’s Flock data had been accessed by out-of-state agencies, prompting city officials to \u003ca href=\"https://lookout.co/city-of-santa-cruz-pauses-statewide-license-plate-data-sharing-citing-flock-safetys-violation-of-california-law/story\">temporarily limit\u003c/a> outside agencies’ access to the city’s license plate reader data and to review its agreement with Flock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“California for 10 years has prohibited the sharing of license plate data out of state. Ten years!” said Peter Gelblum, chair of the ACLU’s Santa Cruz County Chapter, told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066350\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1760px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066350\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/flock-camera-6936dca8e38fe.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1760\" height=\"1084\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/flock-camera-6936dca8e38fe.jpg 1760w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/flock-camera-6936dca8e38fe-160x99.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/flock-camera-6936dca8e38fe-1536x946.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1760px) 100vw, 1760px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Flock camera at Fashion Valley Mall cast in silhouette on Oct. 27, 2025. \u003ccite>(Scott Rodd/KPBS)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>According to Gelblum and other civil liberties advocates, Santa Cruz is the first city in California to end its Flock contract. He credited the Trump administration’s immigration policies for dialing up the sense of urgency in the sanctuary city, as well as data compiled by the recently formed grassroots group \u003ca href=\"https://www.gettheflockout.org\">Get the Flock Out\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They laid out a case that included the finding that, between June and October 2025, state agencies\u003ca href=\"https://lookout.co/anti-flock-group-finds-that-state-agencies-accessed-scpd-camera-data-thousands-of-times-on-feds-behalf-since-mid-2024/story\"> accessed Santa Cruz camera data roughly 4,000 times\u003c/a> on behalf of federal law enforcement, including U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, or ICE, in violation of California’s SB 34.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Under SB 34, California law enforcement agencies are required to adopt detailed usage and privacy policies governing license plate reader data, restrict access to authorized purposes, and regularly audit searches to prevent misuse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And yet, the typical standard Flock contract, which the agencies in Santa Cruz County all signed, enables nationwide sharing, and nationwide sharing was going on the entire time,” Gelblum said.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>A Flock spokesman told KQED the company has always been willing to comply with requests from law enforcement agencies to shut down outside access to data, to ensure compliance with state and local laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trevor Chandler, director of public affairs for Flock, said the company is committed to honoring the values of every community, so that their civil liberty concerns “don’t have to come at the expense of community safety. All of those tools to customize sharing … can be customized at any moment, for any reason, by any city.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though precise tallies differ, civil liberties advocates say roughly 30 municipalities nationwide have recently canceled their contracts with Flock. But Chandler said Flock doesn’t feel threatened by the increased scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We saw Oakland put their program on pause, then \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12066989/california-cities-double-down-on-license-plate-readers-as-federal-surveillance-grows\">went on to reauthorize it\u003c/a>. We saw San Diego put their program on pause, customized safety features, then reauthorized it. So if the conversation with Santa Cruz comes back, we’re happy to have that conversation,” Chandler said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Santa Cruz first signed its contract with Flock in 2024, and it was scheduled to expire on March 27. Tuesday’s vote allows the city to terminate the agreement with 30 days’ notice, or Feb. 12 at the earliest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Santa Cruz got it right,” Sarah Hamid, director of strategic campaigns with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, wrote KQED. “Santa Cruz joins nearly two dozen jurisdictions in 2025 that canceled or rejected Flock contracts by exercising procurement power — local democracy’s most underutilized tool. These communities recognized that Flock’s surveillance risks are difficult to adequately mitigate through policy alone, and chose instead to invest in public safety approaches that don’t require mass surveillance infrastructure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "are-you-allowed-to-record-ice",
"title": "Are You Allowed to Record ICE?",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officer Jonathan Ross shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis, it became an instant flashpoint in the ongoing escalation of federal law enforcement violence. It also put a spotlight on the U.S. government’s efforts to prevent people from documenting federal agents in public.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode, we dig into a simple but important question: do you have the right to record ICE? Criminal justice reporter C.J. Ciaramella explains how the Trump administration is working to create a chilling effect around filming law enforcement, why legal challenges are intensifying, and how courts are increasingly pushing back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5878884828\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://reason.com/people/cj-ciaramella/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">C.J. Ciaramella\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Criminal Justice Reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reason\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://minnesotareformer.com/2026/01/07/ice-officer-fatally-shoots-driver-through-car-window-in-minneapolis/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ICE officer fatally shoots driver through car window in Minneapolis\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Max Nesterak, Madison McVan and Alyssa Chen, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Minnesota Reformer \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://reason.com/2026/01/08/you-have-the-right-to-record-ice/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Trump administration says it’s illegal to record videos of ICE. Here’s what the law says.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — C.J. Ciaramella, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reason\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://reason.com/2025/12/22/dhs-says-recording-or-following-law-enforcement-sure-sounds-like-obstruction-of-justice/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DHS says recording or following law enforcement ‘sure sounds like obstruction of justice’\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — C.J. Ciaramella, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reason\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11871364/recording-the-police-what-to-know-and-how-to-stay-safe-doing-it\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recording the Police: Tips for Safety and Awareness\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Carly Severn and Mina Kim, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://prospect.org/2025/09/09/2025-09-09-dhs-claims-videotaping-ice-raids-is-violence/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DHS Claims Videotaping ICE Raids Is ‘Violence’\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Matthew Cunningham-Cook, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The American Prospect\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2025/11/ice-detains-us-citizen-for-7-hours-after-she-photographed-agents-in-gresham.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ICE detains U.S. citizen for 7 hours after she photographed agents in Oregon\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Yesenia Amaro, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Oregonian\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/ice-immigration-protests-prosecutions-doj-arrests-591f155d50c13756842e033ea23f16d3?link_source=ta_bluesky_link&taid=6943fae5c2e22c00016e74ad&utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=bluesky\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dozens of felony cases crumble in DOJ push to punish protesters\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Michael Biesecker, Jamie Ding, Christine Fernando, Claire Rush, and Ryan J. Foley, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Associated Press \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://time.com/7344924/federal-officers-shooting-immigration-portland-minneapolis-prosecution-immunity/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What Happens When Federal Officers Use Force \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Miranda Jeyaretnam, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TIME \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/justice/2025/12/immigration-mask-ban-new-law/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California is banning masks for federal agents. Here’s why it could lose in court\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nigel Duara, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CalMatters\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just a note, this episode contains references to violence and strong language. Listen with care.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from 50501_Key_Largo Instagram Account]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: If I continue to see you following me around, I’m gonna pull you over and arrest you.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: For what? What law am I breaking?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: You’re impeding one of the investigations, okay?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was an interaction between a Border Patrol officer and a local observer in Key Largo, Florida, posted on Instagram on Monday morning. The officer threatened to arrest the observer for following and filming him, but didn’t say what law they were breaking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from 50501_Key_Largo Instagram Account]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: How am I impeding you?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: I’m not going to argue with you.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: Are you going to shoot me?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: Why would I shoot you?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: Because one of your guys, one of you federal people just shot an innocent woman and murdered her in Minneapolis.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last week, on January 7th, federal immigration and customs enforcement officers shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis, Minnesota. She was 37. The Trump administration has launched an extensive immigration crackdown in Minneapolis singling out the city’s large Somali community. Last week they sent 2,000 federal agents in what ICE Acting Director Todd Lyons described as the largest immigration operation ever.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In response, a lot of citizens have been protesting and following and monitoring ICE and CBP officers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is C.J. Ciaramella, a reporter for Reason magazine who covers criminal justice and civil liberties. He’s been reporting on the Trump administration’s crackdown on those who record or photograph ICE operations. Last Wednesday, Renee Good and her wife had just dropped their six-year-old son off at school when they came across a group of ICE agents. Bystander video shows that Renee’s car was stopped perpendicularly on the road.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And an ICE, uh, a pickup of federal immigration officers stopped in front of her and went up and were shouting at her to…there were some contradictory orders to both leave and get out of her car and started tugging on her car. She started backing up first and then as she was doing that, one of the immigration officers stepped in front her car and she started moving forward and pulling out to leave with the officer in front of her. And as he was stepping around her car, as it was moving towards him, he pulled out his gun and fired three shots and killed her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are several bystander videos that captured different angles of Renee’s last moments and the gruesome aftermath. One shows an officer denying medical assistance for Renee after a bystander identified himself as a doctor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from a video recorded by eyewitness Emily Heller]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Doctor: Can I go check a pulse? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ICE Officer: No! Back up! Now!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Doctor: I’m a physician!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily Heller: Hey, listen here! You just killed my f***ing neighbor!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Videos of the incidents immediately spread online, sparking nationwide outrage. Over the weekend, hundreds of protests gathered across the country, demanding accountability and an end to mass deportations. The Trump administration has tried to paint Renee as an agitator who was stalking and impeding upon ICE operations. On Truth Social, the president said that Renee, “Violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ICE officer, who shot her in self-defense.” But as visual forensic analysis by the New York Times, the Washington Post, and Bellingcat shows, the officer was able to step away from the car and while still standing, fired at least 2 of the 3 shots through the window as the car turned away from him. As ICE operations continue across the country, the Trump administration has escalated retaliating against anyone who follows or records federal officers. This includes journalists, and any civilian just observing ICE. In the last year, ICE and Border Patrol officers have threatened, arrested, and detained those who document their activities or report on their whereabouts. And now, federal agents have appeared to reference the shooting of Renee Good in confrontations with observers, like in this video, which was posted on the r/minneapolis subreddit this week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 1 from r/minnesota Reddit page] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer:This is your warning! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: For what? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Stop f***ing following us! You are impeding operations! This is the United States Federal Government! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: I live over here, I gotta get to my house! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer:This is- this is your warning! Go home!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: Go to church. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Did you not learn from what just happened? Go home! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: Learn what?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or in this video, which was posted on the r/minnesota subreddit days after Renee was killed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 2 from r/minnesota Reddit page] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Have y’all not learned from the past couple of days? Have you not learned?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recorder: Learned what? What’s our lesson here? What do you want us to learn?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Following federal agents.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recorder: Give me my phone back!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In light of all this, many people are asking, are you allowed to record federal agents? And what are your rights when it comes to recording ICE, especially as the Trump administration increasingly tries to target those who do? This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Let’s start with a new tab. Are you allowed to record ice? We’re back with C.J. Ciaramella, who reports on criminal justice and civil liberties for Reason Magazine. He’s going to put this into context for us. ICE activities have been escalating all throughout the past year, but what led up to this moment? And does it feel like a tipping point to you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It really does. This has been sort of the, I don’t want to say logical conclusion because that doesn’t put it in the right light, but over this past summer, we’ve seen escalating rhetoric from the Trump administration about people filming and recording and monitoring ICE and also trying to warn other people about ICE activities. They described this as illegal activity, saying that it’s obstruction of justice or impeding federal immigration officers and they vowed to like, prosecute people who do this. And they also made it clear to these line officers working at CBP and ICE, yeah that they consider this illegal activity. That they consider following around and monitoring these agents to be very confrontational, illegal. There are dozens of videos of ICE and CBP officers threatening to arrest people and pulling them out of the car solely for following and recording them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the main reasons that this incident specifically has exploded is because there are multiple video recordings taken by bystanders that have been shared online, gone viral, you know, just been spread among news outlets. You’ve been reporting on how the Trump administration is trying to make the case that recording ICE officers in public is illegal, like you said. But just to be clear, does the public have the right to record law enforcement and specifically ICE?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I gotta be a little bit nuanced about this because the Supreme Court actually hasn’t put out a ruling saying there’s an unambiguous First Amendment right to film the police. But all of the seven US Federal Circuit Courts that have considered the issue have pretty much said there is a First Amendment right to record the police and observe the police, and they’ve all decided that pretty unambiguously. And this ranges from, you know, the ninth circuit, which is traditionally a pretty liberal leaning court to the fifth circuit, which has a reputation as a more conservative circuit court, you know? The fifth circuit looked at it and said, you know, based on the first amendment tradition, the Supreme court presidents, this seems pretty unambiguous to us. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, so it’s not a completely like black and white issue, but it’s also not a, like, a thorny or divisive first amendment question. Every court that’s looked at, it has said, yeah. Based on our long First Amendment traditions. And in America, you have a right to record the police. Now, Minnesota is in one of the circuits that hasn’t yet ruled on this. So it’s not like black letter law in Minnesota.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. What protections does the public have, if any, when it comes to recording the police or recording law enforcement?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, you do have strong First Amendment protections, especially if you’re engaged in news gathering activity, if you’re monitoring a protest or monitoring police activity. And you don’t have to be an official journalist to do this because there’s no, you know, definition of journalists in the First Amendment. There are very strong protections for news gathering. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since about 2020, some states have passed what are called buffer laws that restrict people from recording the police within about 25 feet when they’re asked to get out of the way. And those have faced a lot of scrutiny from courts. Arizona and Indiana both had buffer laws that were overturned for being unconstitutionally vague. There would be too much of a chilling effect for preventing the public from recording police. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a really fundamental principle and privacy First Amendment and public record law in the United States, is that government officials doing official government work in public don’t have a reasonable expectation of privacy. You know, this is another example of a really sort of watershed moment in policing and law enforcement in America that’s based on recorded video evidence. The same as in Minneapolis with George Floyd in 2020, Rodney King, you know, is these have all had huge impacts on our nation’s history and they’re all based on people recording police activity and documenting it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The founders really believed that we should be able to hold our government accountable. And that includes having access to popular information and knowing what our government is doing. And that’s why recording the police and creating this sort of evidence trail is such a core protected first movement activity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In June last year, dozens of journalists were injured by law enforcement while covering the Los Angeles protests against mass deportation. Many journalists and protesters were tear gassed or shot at with pepper rounds and rubber bullets, or their phones and cameras were smashed while recording. One reporter was shot by a rubber bullet live on air.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Months later, a federal district court issued an injunction blocking the Department of Homeland Security, which includes ICE and Border Patrol from brutalizing journalists, protesters, and legal observers. That means that federal agents aren’t allowed to threaten or assault the press or protesters unless they have probable cause to believe they’ve committed a crime. They also can’t use chemical, projectile, and auditory weapons against protesters, journalists, or legal observers who don’t pose imminent harm to law enforcement. Basically, they can’t tear gas or shoot people just for exercising their First Amendment rights. Enforcement is another story, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were injunctions against that, if I’m remembering correctly. There were a couple of injunctions trying to restrict the sort of tactics that federal law enforcement was using. We also saw the same thing in Chicago. There was injunctions trying to restrict ICE from retaliating against protesters and reporters who were engaged in really clear-cut First Amendment activity. And the judges kind of struggled to enforce that. In Chicago we saw the plaintiffs kept coming back with new motions saying like, here’s more evidence that your injunction is not being followed.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s been really hard to enforce because the Trump administration has, if not an officially stated, a de facto policy that anyone who is opposing them or filming them is subject to intimidation and retaliation. There was a Cato report that came out in December that outlined dozens of instances of people who are being intimidated and threatened by federal agents for engaging in really clearly protected First Amendment activity such as just following from a distance or recording police. In fact, I wrote a story about an Oregon woman who was followed by ICE agents because she was filming them in a parking lot and they followed her after she left and her lawyer shared video with me. She stopped at an intersection and you can see the the agents come up to her window and the first thing they say is ‘Why are you filming us?’ \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I want to say also as well that people who monitor police, reporters, and activists have faced First Amendment retaliation for decades. But what’s really startling and unprecedented here is that we’re hearing this coming from the top of the federal government. That is something that’s quite new, I would say. Secretary Noem was on record in July saying that, you know, violence is anything that threatens them and their safety and she included videotaping federal immigration officers. They’re equating videotaping officers with violence and domestic terrorism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s what DHS Secretary Kristi Noem said during a press conference last summer\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem during July 12, 2025 Press Conference inTampa, Florida].\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…And I will tell you that violence is anything that threatens them and their safety. So it is doxing them. It’s videotaping them where they’re at when they’re out on operations, encouraging other people to come and to throw things, rocks, bottles…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Notice the use of the word doxing here. That’s the act of posting private information about someone to target and harass them, usually like their home address or personal phone number. The Trump administration has equated identifying and publicly naming ICE agents to dox-ing. California recently banned federal officers from wearing masks on duty, with exceptions for medical masks like N95s, wildfire protection, and agents undercover. The ban was supposed to go into effect this month. Here’s state Senator Scott Wiener talking about the ban on Instagram.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Senator Scott Wiener speaking on Instagram ]\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I introduced and passed this law to stop ICE and any other law enforcement from covering their faces and effectively operating as secret police. It is horrifying what federal agents are doing, tearing communities apart, operating in the shadows, not identifying themselves, covering their faces so you don’t even know who you’re dealing with.\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the Trump administration has sued to block the bill, citing threats to federal officers like taunting, online doxing, and stalking. They argue that states like California have no authority to interfere with federal immigration operations, which means that state and local officials can’t enforce the mask ban. So are you allowed to record ICE? Yes, but like we’ve seen with California’s mask ban, the White House has been very opposed to any attempt at identifying federal officers. In fact, they’ve gone as far as trying to prosecute those who record and identify ICE agents. So what does this targeting and retaliation from the administration look like? And how is it holding up in courts? That’s after this break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Time to open a new tab: The legal battle over recording law enforcement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Trump administration is going as far as trying to prosecute people for following and recording ICE. And they’re using this federal statute to threaten those who get in their way. It’s called 18 USC 111. C.J. is going to tell us about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, it’s both a felony and a misdemeanor depending on the severity or why they want to charge it. But it’s for assaulting, impeding, or obstructing a federal law enforcement agent and it’s pretty much what it sounds like. It’s more or less a federal analog of the obstruction laws that you see at your local level where if you, you know, if a police officer is trying to arrest someone and you get in their way and try and pull the person away or physically obstruct the officer, you can get charged with obstruction. But this also, I would mention, obstruction is a classic, what’s known as a contempt of cop charge. It’s something that’s thrown at people when they annoy cops, and the police are looking for something that they can punish them with. But it’s also used frequently for people who are being a real nuisance to police, and that’s what it’s intended for. It’s for assaulting and physically obstructing officers. And it accounts for all federal law enforcement, including immigration.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. How is the administration trying to use this statute specifically to target those who film ICE? Have they had any success?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is, you know, this sort of top-down order is to treat people who are opposing them through, you know, First Amendment or activities of recording or warning other people as violating this statute to sort of broaden this to include non-violent or non-physical means of obstruction. And what’s been really interesting about that is that these prosecutions have faired really poorly compared to federal prosecutors’ usual track record. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Usually when a U.S. Attorney’s office brings a case to a grand jury, they almost always get it. It is extremely rare for federal prosecutors to bring a case to a jury and have them reject it. And most cases that they do bring end in guilty pleas and plea agreements. But what we’ve seen is grand juries refusing cases in Chicago and elsewhere, refusing to indict. And those cases then getting thrown out when body cam footage and other evidence comes to light showing that these actions that people are being charged for aren’t meeting the elements of this crime which requires physically obstructing or assaulting agents and you know by that definition following an officer isn’t obstructing them you know recording them isn’t physically obstructed them even alerting other people to the presence of ICE is not obstructing them. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The law on that is a little more mixed, but there have been courts that have upheld the right to, for example, warn motorists of speed traps ahead or to flash your lights to warn people of cops in the distance. They consider that First Amendment speech as well. So what we’ve seen is a lot of these prosecutions failing at an unprecedented rate. There have been quite a few cases where they’ve charged people with a felony charge. And then when a grand jury refuses to indict them, they are refiled as a misdemeanor, which doesn’t actually require a grand-jury indictment. And some of those cases have pled out guilty after the misdemeanor charge was refiled. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there’s been other cases where the federal prosecutors haven’t even been able to secure a misdemeanor conviction. The most famous case was the sandwich guy in DC, Sean Dunn, who threw a Subway sandwich at a CBP officer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from WUSA 9 newscast] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Customs and Border Patrol agent hit with the sandwich, characterized it as a profanity laced tirade, and he told the jury Dunn threw the sandwich so hard, it exploded against his bulletproof vest, “I could smell the onions and mustard.”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The prosecutors were trying to convince the jury that this officer had a real fear for his safety when he got pelted with a sandwich, and the jury did not agree.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In an investigation published late last year, the Associated Press found that, since May, of the 100 people charged with felony assaults on federal agents, 55 saw their charges reduced to misdemeanors or just outright dismissed. Only 23 pleaded guilty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’ve found that dozens of the cases have kind of fallen apart. That is a really high failure rate for federal prosecutors who nearly, when it comes to these sort of cases, are almost always batting a hundred. So it’s been a, it’s been very strange, I think, for the U.S. Prosecutor’s offices as well, who have had to face judges who are being very, well judges have to be very circumspect in their language, but are questioning these cases pretty harshly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even talking about this top-down almost order, right? JD Vance has made statements about how ICE agents have total immunity. How does that play into this? Like, what can you tell us about how much of the talk of ICE’s immunity can actually hold up against legal challenges?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I asked DHS public affairs office in December if they considered following and recording officers to be obstruction of justice. You know, I wanted to get a straight answer from them. And the office of public affairs sent me a statement attributed to an unnamed spokesperson who said, that sure sounds like obstruction of justice, which, you know, isn’t a super clear answer, but it gives you the mindset. And like I said, that is coming and that is trickling down from the very top of DHS to the line officers who are being told that they have immunity and that anyone who is sort of bothering them is probably violating the statute.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve established that recording law enforcement is a right upheld by federal courts. That’s not stopping ICE agents from continuing to target those who do record them. You had mentioned the woman in Oregon that you covered. What happened there when she was stopped?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She was detained for, I believe, five or six hours. She was taken to a detention facility and detained and eventually released without charges. Last time I checked, they still not filed any charges against her. So, you know, this was, um, can almost be seen as a purely retaliatory or punishment sort of, and that’s really, I think, what this comes down to is a textbook definition of a chilling effect on free speech. When you have these statements from top officials, when you have the vice president basically saying that these agents will have immunity for what they’re doing, it makes everyone who wants to participate and exercise their First Amendment right second guess whether it’s worth it.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I was out driving around in my hometown in December. Um, following ICE and CBP and taking pictures, you know, um, from a distance, but, uh, just seeing what they were doing because I’m a reporter and I had a unambiguous, crystal clear, First Amendment right to do that. But it was still in the back of my head, if these guys decided I was bothering them, they could bust out my car windows. They could detain me. They could pull their guns on me, which is all things that have happened to people for doing the same thing. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was a reporter at 25, that wasn’t as much of a worry, but I have a kid at home, ah, you know, you start doing…the calculus gets a lot harder. And that’s exactly what this sort of policy and what this activity does is make people self-censor under the threat of government retaliation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was this woman who was detained for seven in Oregon. She’s just one of many dozens at this point who have been targeted by ICE. There are all the journalists in Los Angeles who were shot up by rubber bullets and injured. Is there any recourse for victims of retaliation like this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so it is very, very hard to hold federal law enforcement agents accountable for their actions. They do have sovereign immunity from some criminal prosecutions. In federal court, you have to file a lawsuit against the U.S. Government. You actually can’t sue them as individuals. So you basically have to go to court against the US government. And it is a very, very long and hard road to follow to successfully sue the U.S. Government for civil rights deprivations.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The best options, um, are probably more sweeping class action injunctions and sort of broader rulings against the general activity, just because it’s so hard to hold individual officers accountable even on a class action or individual level.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Considering everything we just talked about, what should people know before they consider recording ICE or other law enforcement activities?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What I say you should know is that you do have the First Amendment right to do this. You have the right to record and monitor, and you even have the right to verbally oppose the police. One of the Supreme Court decisions that a lot of circuit courts have looked back on when they’re deciding these sort of questions was a 1987 Supreme Court ruling in a case called Houston v Hill, where they struck down an ordinance that made it unlawful to oppose or interrupt a police officer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Supreme Court Justice William Brennan, Jr. wrote, “The freedom of individuals verbally to oppose or challenge police action without thereby risking arrest is one of the principle characteristics by which we distinguish a free nation from a police state.” And courts they’ll look back to that when they’re deciding things like whether you should be able to yell an obscenity at a police officer or record them. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nAnd like I said, what the administration is trying to do is create a chilling effect here. And what people should know is that they are banking on fear and banking on you not wanting to exercise your First Amendment rights. And what we’re seeing all around the country with these protests and with people coming out and confronting ICE agents and CBP agents more is that it’s not working.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So remember, recording ICE, or any law enforcement, is your constitutional right, but it’s not without risks. We’ll link some resources for staying safe in the show notes. And check out our two-part series, The Surveillance Machine, for a deeper dive on the history of protest surveillance and how it’s used today. Okay, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and our credits music. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Are You Allowed to Record ICE? | KQED",
"description": "When U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officer Jonathan Ross shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis, it became an instant flashpoint in the ongoing escalation of federal law enforcement violence. It also put a spotlight on the U.S. government’s efforts to prevent people from documenting federal agents in public.In this episode, we dig into a simple but important question: do you have the right to record ICE? Criminal justice reporter C.J. Ciaramella explains how the Trump administration is working to create a chilling effect around filming law enforcement, why legal challenges are intensifying, and how courts are increasingly pushing back.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officer Jonathan Ross shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis, it became an instant flashpoint in the ongoing escalation of federal law enforcement violence. It also put a spotlight on the U.S. government’s efforts to prevent people from documenting federal agents in public.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode, we dig into a simple but important question: do you have the right to record ICE? Criminal justice reporter C.J. Ciaramella explains how the Trump administration is working to create a chilling effect around filming law enforcement, why legal challenges are intensifying, and how courts are increasingly pushing back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5878884828\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://reason.com/people/cj-ciaramella/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">C.J. Ciaramella\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Criminal Justice Reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reason\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://minnesotareformer.com/2026/01/07/ice-officer-fatally-shoots-driver-through-car-window-in-minneapolis/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ICE officer fatally shoots driver through car window in Minneapolis\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Max Nesterak, Madison McVan and Alyssa Chen, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Minnesota Reformer \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://reason.com/2026/01/08/you-have-the-right-to-record-ice/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Trump administration says it’s illegal to record videos of ICE. Here’s what the law says.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — C.J. Ciaramella, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reason\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://reason.com/2025/12/22/dhs-says-recording-or-following-law-enforcement-sure-sounds-like-obstruction-of-justice/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DHS says recording or following law enforcement ‘sure sounds like obstruction of justice’\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — C.J. Ciaramella, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reason\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11871364/recording-the-police-what-to-know-and-how-to-stay-safe-doing-it\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recording the Police: Tips for Safety and Awareness\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Carly Severn and Mina Kim, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://prospect.org/2025/09/09/2025-09-09-dhs-claims-videotaping-ice-raids-is-violence/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DHS Claims Videotaping ICE Raids Is ‘Violence’\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Matthew Cunningham-Cook, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The American Prospect\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2025/11/ice-detains-us-citizen-for-7-hours-after-she-photographed-agents-in-gresham.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ICE detains U.S. citizen for 7 hours after she photographed agents in Oregon\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Yesenia Amaro, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Oregonian\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/ice-immigration-protests-prosecutions-doj-arrests-591f155d50c13756842e033ea23f16d3?link_source=ta_bluesky_link&taid=6943fae5c2e22c00016e74ad&utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=bluesky\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dozens of felony cases crumble in DOJ push to punish protesters\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Michael Biesecker, Jamie Ding, Christine Fernando, Claire Rush, and Ryan J. Foley, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Associated Press \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://time.com/7344924/federal-officers-shooting-immigration-portland-minneapolis-prosecution-immunity/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What Happens When Federal Officers Use Force \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Miranda Jeyaretnam, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TIME \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/justice/2025/12/immigration-mask-ban-new-law/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California is banning masks for federal agents. Here’s why it could lose in court\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nigel Duara, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CalMatters\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just a note, this episode contains references to violence and strong language. Listen with care.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from 50501_Key_Largo Instagram Account]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: If I continue to see you following me around, I’m gonna pull you over and arrest you.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: For what? What law am I breaking?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: You’re impeding one of the investigations, okay?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was an interaction between a Border Patrol officer and a local observer in Key Largo, Florida, posted on Instagram on Monday morning. The officer threatened to arrest the observer for following and filming him, but didn’t say what law they were breaking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from 50501_Key_Largo Instagram Account]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: How am I impeding you?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: I’m not going to argue with you.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: Are you going to shoot me?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: Why would I shoot you?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: Because one of your guys, one of you federal people just shot an innocent woman and murdered her in Minneapolis.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last week, on January 7th, federal immigration and customs enforcement officers shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis, Minnesota. She was 37. The Trump administration has launched an extensive immigration crackdown in Minneapolis singling out the city’s large Somali community. Last week they sent 2,000 federal agents in what ICE Acting Director Todd Lyons described as the largest immigration operation ever.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In response, a lot of citizens have been protesting and following and monitoring ICE and CBP officers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is C.J. Ciaramella, a reporter for Reason magazine who covers criminal justice and civil liberties. He’s been reporting on the Trump administration’s crackdown on those who record or photograph ICE operations. Last Wednesday, Renee Good and her wife had just dropped their six-year-old son off at school when they came across a group of ICE agents. Bystander video shows that Renee’s car was stopped perpendicularly on the road.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And an ICE, uh, a pickup of federal immigration officers stopped in front of her and went up and were shouting at her to…there were some contradictory orders to both leave and get out of her car and started tugging on her car. She started backing up first and then as she was doing that, one of the immigration officers stepped in front her car and she started moving forward and pulling out to leave with the officer in front of her. And as he was stepping around her car, as it was moving towards him, he pulled out his gun and fired three shots and killed her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are several bystander videos that captured different angles of Renee’s last moments and the gruesome aftermath. One shows an officer denying medical assistance for Renee after a bystander identified himself as a doctor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from a video recorded by eyewitness Emily Heller]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Doctor: Can I go check a pulse? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ICE Officer: No! Back up! Now!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Doctor: I’m a physician!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily Heller: Hey, listen here! You just killed my f***ing neighbor!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Videos of the incidents immediately spread online, sparking nationwide outrage. Over the weekend, hundreds of protests gathered across the country, demanding accountability and an end to mass deportations. The Trump administration has tried to paint Renee as an agitator who was stalking and impeding upon ICE operations. On Truth Social, the president said that Renee, “Violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ICE officer, who shot her in self-defense.” But as visual forensic analysis by the New York Times, the Washington Post, and Bellingcat shows, the officer was able to step away from the car and while still standing, fired at least 2 of the 3 shots through the window as the car turned away from him. As ICE operations continue across the country, the Trump administration has escalated retaliating against anyone who follows or records federal officers. This includes journalists, and any civilian just observing ICE. In the last year, ICE and Border Patrol officers have threatened, arrested, and detained those who document their activities or report on their whereabouts. And now, federal agents have appeared to reference the shooting of Renee Good in confrontations with observers, like in this video, which was posted on the r/minneapolis subreddit this week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 1 from r/minnesota Reddit page] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer:This is your warning! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: For what? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Stop f***ing following us! You are impeding operations! This is the United States Federal Government! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: I live over here, I gotta get to my house! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer:This is- this is your warning! Go home!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: Go to church. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Did you not learn from what just happened? Go home! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: Learn what?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or in this video, which was posted on the r/minnesota subreddit days after Renee was killed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 2 from r/minnesota Reddit page] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Have y’all not learned from the past couple of days? Have you not learned?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recorder: Learned what? What’s our lesson here? What do you want us to learn?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Following federal agents.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recorder: Give me my phone back!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In light of all this, many people are asking, are you allowed to record federal agents? And what are your rights when it comes to recording ICE, especially as the Trump administration increasingly tries to target those who do? This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Let’s start with a new tab. Are you allowed to record ice? We’re back with C.J. Ciaramella, who reports on criminal justice and civil liberties for Reason Magazine. He’s going to put this into context for us. ICE activities have been escalating all throughout the past year, but what led up to this moment? And does it feel like a tipping point to you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It really does. This has been sort of the, I don’t want to say logical conclusion because that doesn’t put it in the right light, but over this past summer, we’ve seen escalating rhetoric from the Trump administration about people filming and recording and monitoring ICE and also trying to warn other people about ICE activities. They described this as illegal activity, saying that it’s obstruction of justice or impeding federal immigration officers and they vowed to like, prosecute people who do this. And they also made it clear to these line officers working at CBP and ICE, yeah that they consider this illegal activity. That they consider following around and monitoring these agents to be very confrontational, illegal. There are dozens of videos of ICE and CBP officers threatening to arrest people and pulling them out of the car solely for following and recording them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the main reasons that this incident specifically has exploded is because there are multiple video recordings taken by bystanders that have been shared online, gone viral, you know, just been spread among news outlets. You’ve been reporting on how the Trump administration is trying to make the case that recording ICE officers in public is illegal, like you said. But just to be clear, does the public have the right to record law enforcement and specifically ICE?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I gotta be a little bit nuanced about this because the Supreme Court actually hasn’t put out a ruling saying there’s an unambiguous First Amendment right to film the police. But all of the seven US Federal Circuit Courts that have considered the issue have pretty much said there is a First Amendment right to record the police and observe the police, and they’ve all decided that pretty unambiguously. And this ranges from, you know, the ninth circuit, which is traditionally a pretty liberal leaning court to the fifth circuit, which has a reputation as a more conservative circuit court, you know? The fifth circuit looked at it and said, you know, based on the first amendment tradition, the Supreme court presidents, this seems pretty unambiguous to us. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, so it’s not a completely like black and white issue, but it’s also not a, like, a thorny or divisive first amendment question. Every court that’s looked at, it has said, yeah. Based on our long First Amendment traditions. And in America, you have a right to record the police. Now, Minnesota is in one of the circuits that hasn’t yet ruled on this. So it’s not like black letter law in Minnesota.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. What protections does the public have, if any, when it comes to recording the police or recording law enforcement?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, you do have strong First Amendment protections, especially if you’re engaged in news gathering activity, if you’re monitoring a protest or monitoring police activity. And you don’t have to be an official journalist to do this because there’s no, you know, definition of journalists in the First Amendment. There are very strong protections for news gathering. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since about 2020, some states have passed what are called buffer laws that restrict people from recording the police within about 25 feet when they’re asked to get out of the way. And those have faced a lot of scrutiny from courts. Arizona and Indiana both had buffer laws that were overturned for being unconstitutionally vague. There would be too much of a chilling effect for preventing the public from recording police. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a really fundamental principle and privacy First Amendment and public record law in the United States, is that government officials doing official government work in public don’t have a reasonable expectation of privacy. You know, this is another example of a really sort of watershed moment in policing and law enforcement in America that’s based on recorded video evidence. The same as in Minneapolis with George Floyd in 2020, Rodney King, you know, is these have all had huge impacts on our nation’s history and they’re all based on people recording police activity and documenting it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The founders really believed that we should be able to hold our government accountable. And that includes having access to popular information and knowing what our government is doing. And that’s why recording the police and creating this sort of evidence trail is such a core protected first movement activity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In June last year, dozens of journalists were injured by law enforcement while covering the Los Angeles protests against mass deportation. Many journalists and protesters were tear gassed or shot at with pepper rounds and rubber bullets, or their phones and cameras were smashed while recording. One reporter was shot by a rubber bullet live on air.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Months later, a federal district court issued an injunction blocking the Department of Homeland Security, which includes ICE and Border Patrol from brutalizing journalists, protesters, and legal observers. That means that federal agents aren’t allowed to threaten or assault the press or protesters unless they have probable cause to believe they’ve committed a crime. They also can’t use chemical, projectile, and auditory weapons against protesters, journalists, or legal observers who don’t pose imminent harm to law enforcement. Basically, they can’t tear gas or shoot people just for exercising their First Amendment rights. Enforcement is another story, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were injunctions against that, if I’m remembering correctly. There were a couple of injunctions trying to restrict the sort of tactics that federal law enforcement was using. We also saw the same thing in Chicago. There was injunctions trying to restrict ICE from retaliating against protesters and reporters who were engaged in really clear-cut First Amendment activity. And the judges kind of struggled to enforce that. In Chicago we saw the plaintiffs kept coming back with new motions saying like, here’s more evidence that your injunction is not being followed.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s been really hard to enforce because the Trump administration has, if not an officially stated, a de facto policy that anyone who is opposing them or filming them is subject to intimidation and retaliation. There was a Cato report that came out in December that outlined dozens of instances of people who are being intimidated and threatened by federal agents for engaging in really clearly protected First Amendment activity such as just following from a distance or recording police. In fact, I wrote a story about an Oregon woman who was followed by ICE agents because she was filming them in a parking lot and they followed her after she left and her lawyer shared video with me. She stopped at an intersection and you can see the the agents come up to her window and the first thing they say is ‘Why are you filming us?’ \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I want to say also as well that people who monitor police, reporters, and activists have faced First Amendment retaliation for decades. But what’s really startling and unprecedented here is that we’re hearing this coming from the top of the federal government. That is something that’s quite new, I would say. Secretary Noem was on record in July saying that, you know, violence is anything that threatens them and their safety and she included videotaping federal immigration officers. They’re equating videotaping officers with violence and domestic terrorism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s what DHS Secretary Kristi Noem said during a press conference last summer\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem during July 12, 2025 Press Conference inTampa, Florida].\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…And I will tell you that violence is anything that threatens them and their safety. So it is doxing them. It’s videotaping them where they’re at when they’re out on operations, encouraging other people to come and to throw things, rocks, bottles…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Notice the use of the word doxing here. That’s the act of posting private information about someone to target and harass them, usually like their home address or personal phone number. The Trump administration has equated identifying and publicly naming ICE agents to dox-ing. California recently banned federal officers from wearing masks on duty, with exceptions for medical masks like N95s, wildfire protection, and agents undercover. The ban was supposed to go into effect this month. Here’s state Senator Scott Wiener talking about the ban on Instagram.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Senator Scott Wiener speaking on Instagram ]\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I introduced and passed this law to stop ICE and any other law enforcement from covering their faces and effectively operating as secret police. It is horrifying what federal agents are doing, tearing communities apart, operating in the shadows, not identifying themselves, covering their faces so you don’t even know who you’re dealing with.\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the Trump administration has sued to block the bill, citing threats to federal officers like taunting, online doxing, and stalking. They argue that states like California have no authority to interfere with federal immigration operations, which means that state and local officials can’t enforce the mask ban. So are you allowed to record ICE? Yes, but like we’ve seen with California’s mask ban, the White House has been very opposed to any attempt at identifying federal officers. In fact, they’ve gone as far as trying to prosecute those who record and identify ICE agents. So what does this targeting and retaliation from the administration look like? And how is it holding up in courts? That’s after this break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Time to open a new tab: The legal battle over recording law enforcement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Trump administration is going as far as trying to prosecute people for following and recording ICE. And they’re using this federal statute to threaten those who get in their way. It’s called 18 USC 111. C.J. is going to tell us about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, it’s both a felony and a misdemeanor depending on the severity or why they want to charge it. But it’s for assaulting, impeding, or obstructing a federal law enforcement agent and it’s pretty much what it sounds like. It’s more or less a federal analog of the obstruction laws that you see at your local level where if you, you know, if a police officer is trying to arrest someone and you get in their way and try and pull the person away or physically obstruct the officer, you can get charged with obstruction. But this also, I would mention, obstruction is a classic, what’s known as a contempt of cop charge. It’s something that’s thrown at people when they annoy cops, and the police are looking for something that they can punish them with. But it’s also used frequently for people who are being a real nuisance to police, and that’s what it’s intended for. It’s for assaulting and physically obstructing officers. And it accounts for all federal law enforcement, including immigration.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. How is the administration trying to use this statute specifically to target those who film ICE? Have they had any success?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is, you know, this sort of top-down order is to treat people who are opposing them through, you know, First Amendment or activities of recording or warning other people as violating this statute to sort of broaden this to include non-violent or non-physical means of obstruction. And what’s been really interesting about that is that these prosecutions have faired really poorly compared to federal prosecutors’ usual track record. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Usually when a U.S. Attorney’s office brings a case to a grand jury, they almost always get it. It is extremely rare for federal prosecutors to bring a case to a jury and have them reject it. And most cases that they do bring end in guilty pleas and plea agreements. But what we’ve seen is grand juries refusing cases in Chicago and elsewhere, refusing to indict. And those cases then getting thrown out when body cam footage and other evidence comes to light showing that these actions that people are being charged for aren’t meeting the elements of this crime which requires physically obstructing or assaulting agents and you know by that definition following an officer isn’t obstructing them you know recording them isn’t physically obstructed them even alerting other people to the presence of ICE is not obstructing them. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The law on that is a little more mixed, but there have been courts that have upheld the right to, for example, warn motorists of speed traps ahead or to flash your lights to warn people of cops in the distance. They consider that First Amendment speech as well. So what we’ve seen is a lot of these prosecutions failing at an unprecedented rate. There have been quite a few cases where they’ve charged people with a felony charge. And then when a grand jury refuses to indict them, they are refiled as a misdemeanor, which doesn’t actually require a grand-jury indictment. And some of those cases have pled out guilty after the misdemeanor charge was refiled. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there’s been other cases where the federal prosecutors haven’t even been able to secure a misdemeanor conviction. The most famous case was the sandwich guy in DC, Sean Dunn, who threw a Subway sandwich at a CBP officer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from WUSA 9 newscast] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Customs and Border Patrol agent hit with the sandwich, characterized it as a profanity laced tirade, and he told the jury Dunn threw the sandwich so hard, it exploded against his bulletproof vest, “I could smell the onions and mustard.”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The prosecutors were trying to convince the jury that this officer had a real fear for his safety when he got pelted with a sandwich, and the jury did not agree.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In an investigation published late last year, the Associated Press found that, since May, of the 100 people charged with felony assaults on federal agents, 55 saw their charges reduced to misdemeanors or just outright dismissed. Only 23 pleaded guilty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’ve found that dozens of the cases have kind of fallen apart. That is a really high failure rate for federal prosecutors who nearly, when it comes to these sort of cases, are almost always batting a hundred. So it’s been a, it’s been very strange, I think, for the U.S. Prosecutor’s offices as well, who have had to face judges who are being very, well judges have to be very circumspect in their language, but are questioning these cases pretty harshly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even talking about this top-down almost order, right? JD Vance has made statements about how ICE agents have total immunity. How does that play into this? Like, what can you tell us about how much of the talk of ICE’s immunity can actually hold up against legal challenges?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I asked DHS public affairs office in December if they considered following and recording officers to be obstruction of justice. You know, I wanted to get a straight answer from them. And the office of public affairs sent me a statement attributed to an unnamed spokesperson who said, that sure sounds like obstruction of justice, which, you know, isn’t a super clear answer, but it gives you the mindset. And like I said, that is coming and that is trickling down from the very top of DHS to the line officers who are being told that they have immunity and that anyone who is sort of bothering them is probably violating the statute.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve established that recording law enforcement is a right upheld by federal courts. That’s not stopping ICE agents from continuing to target those who do record them. You had mentioned the woman in Oregon that you covered. What happened there when she was stopped?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She was detained for, I believe, five or six hours. She was taken to a detention facility and detained and eventually released without charges. Last time I checked, they still not filed any charges against her. So, you know, this was, um, can almost be seen as a purely retaliatory or punishment sort of, and that’s really, I think, what this comes down to is a textbook definition of a chilling effect on free speech. When you have these statements from top officials, when you have the vice president basically saying that these agents will have immunity for what they’re doing, it makes everyone who wants to participate and exercise their First Amendment right second guess whether it’s worth it.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I was out driving around in my hometown in December. Um, following ICE and CBP and taking pictures, you know, um, from a distance, but, uh, just seeing what they were doing because I’m a reporter and I had a unambiguous, crystal clear, First Amendment right to do that. But it was still in the back of my head, if these guys decided I was bothering them, they could bust out my car windows. They could detain me. They could pull their guns on me, which is all things that have happened to people for doing the same thing. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was a reporter at 25, that wasn’t as much of a worry, but I have a kid at home, ah, you know, you start doing…the calculus gets a lot harder. And that’s exactly what this sort of policy and what this activity does is make people self-censor under the threat of government retaliation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was this woman who was detained for seven in Oregon. She’s just one of many dozens at this point who have been targeted by ICE. There are all the journalists in Los Angeles who were shot up by rubber bullets and injured. Is there any recourse for victims of retaliation like this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so it is very, very hard to hold federal law enforcement agents accountable for their actions. They do have sovereign immunity from some criminal prosecutions. In federal court, you have to file a lawsuit against the U.S. Government. You actually can’t sue them as individuals. So you basically have to go to court against the US government. And it is a very, very long and hard road to follow to successfully sue the U.S. Government for civil rights deprivations.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The best options, um, are probably more sweeping class action injunctions and sort of broader rulings against the general activity, just because it’s so hard to hold individual officers accountable even on a class action or individual level.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Considering everything we just talked about, what should people know before they consider recording ICE or other law enforcement activities?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What I say you should know is that you do have the First Amendment right to do this. You have the right to record and monitor, and you even have the right to verbally oppose the police. One of the Supreme Court decisions that a lot of circuit courts have looked back on when they’re deciding these sort of questions was a 1987 Supreme Court ruling in a case called Houston v Hill, where they struck down an ordinance that made it unlawful to oppose or interrupt a police officer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Supreme Court Justice William Brennan, Jr. wrote, “The freedom of individuals verbally to oppose or challenge police action without thereby risking arrest is one of the principle characteristics by which we distinguish a free nation from a police state.” And courts they’ll look back to that when they’re deciding things like whether you should be able to yell an obscenity at a police officer or record them. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nAnd like I said, what the administration is trying to do is create a chilling effect here. And what people should know is that they are banking on fear and banking on you not wanting to exercise your First Amendment rights. And what we’re seeing all around the country with these protests and with people coming out and confronting ICE agents and CBP agents more is that it’s not working.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So remember, recording ICE, or any law enforcement, is your constitutional right, but it’s not without risks. We’ll link some resources for staying safe in the show notes. And check out our two-part series, The Surveillance Machine, for a deeper dive on the history of protest surveillance and how it’s used today. Okay, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and our credits music. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "sick-of-scam-calls-and-texts-you-can-now-request-to-remove-your-details-from-data-brokers",
"title": "Sick of Scam Calls and Texts? You Can Now Request to Remove Your Details From Data Brokers",
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"headTitle": "Sick of Scam Calls and Texts? You Can Now Request to Remove Your Details From Data Brokers | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>Constant spam calls and fake texts \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/08/08/nx-s1-5494743/weve-all-gotten-those-hiring-scam-texts-instead-of-deleting-this-writer-played-along\">promising job offers\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/yrechtman/status/2008946516820406366?s=46&t=7BBzFwo6eYLzJIVfAlumEQ\">easy cash\u003c/a> or, in some cases, a coffee date, have been the bane of my existence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s not just me. According to the consumer advocacy organization \u003ca href=\"https://pirg.org/edfund/\">US PIRG Education Fund\u003c/a>, Americans received \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbsnews.com/news/robocalls-on-the-rise-heres-why/\">2.56 \u003cem>billion \u003c/em>robocalls per month\u003c/a> from January to September 2025. And in recent years, scammers have increased their use of text messaging or DMs on social media platforms to get your information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’ve ever wondered, “How are they even getting my phone number?” it’s because these scammers \u003ca href=\"https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-proposes-rule-to-stop-data-brokers-from-selling-sensitive-personal-data-to-scammers-stalkers-and-spies/\">usually obtain your contact details\u003c/a> from data brokers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But this year, a feature of \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/about-drop-and-the-delete-act/\">California’s privacy law\u003c/a> called the Delete Request and Opt-out Platform (or DROP) is kicking in, allowing anyone living in the state to limit the amount of information available to these brokers by submitting deletion requests to have their information manually removed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because data brokers \u003ca href=\"https://epic.org/issues/consumer-privacy/data-brokers/\">collect and sell a plethora of personal information\u003c/a> about you — including names, addresses, income, political party, shopping habits and more, there are other reasons beyond spam calls to want your details removed from their databases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://twitter.com/pirdbooop/status/1906800016141758795?s=46&t=7BBzFwo6eYLzJIVfAlumEQ\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s a good way to upkeep digital privacy and prevent other bodies — \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12055606/how-ice-is-using-your-data-and-what-you-can-do-about-it\">including, increasingly, federal agencies \u003c/a>— from accessing even more information about you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Keep reading for an overview of the DROP law, from what it does to how to submit a request yourself. The state also has \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">its own thorough resource on navigating DROP\u003c/a>, including \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/personal-information-and-data-brokers/\">what it means to delete your personal data\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How you can use DROP\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Who can submit a DROP request? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can use DROP if you are a California resident, and must accordingly \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/check-eligibility\">verify that you are a California resident\u003c/a> when you fill out the form, by either:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Providing personal information,\u003c/strong> including name, date of birth, address, phone or email. If you cannot provide a phone number or email, you may need to provide a Social Security number or Individual Taxpayer Identification Number. You will give this information on a state website called the \u003ca href=\"https://digitalidstrategy.cdt.ca.gov/\">California Identity Gateway\u003c/a>, which is often used to verify residency. According to the state, this information will only be used to verify your identity and residency and will not be stored or shared.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Creating an account\u003c/strong> through \u003ca href=\"http://login.gov\">login.gov\u003c/a>, a \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/check-eligibility\">“federally hosted identity verification service used by many government agencies.”\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Keep in mind that if you choose to verify either through the California Identity Gateway or login.gov, you will need to use the same method for future DROP requests.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Once your identity is verified, you will be able to proceed with the submission form on the DROP website.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069526\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12069526 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">According to the consumer advocacy organization US PIRG Education Fund, Americans received 2.56 billion robocalls per month from January to September 2025. \u003ccite>(Rain Star/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How can I submit a DROP request?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can submit a request using \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/\">the state’s official DROP website\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After verifying you’re a California resident (see above), you’ll fill out some basic information, including:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Full name (including any other variations of your name, like a maiden name or nickname)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Date of birth\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Zip code(s)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Email address(es), which you’ll be asked to verify by code\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Phone number(s), which you’ll be asked to verify by code\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Any unique IDs you have connected to your phone or smart TV since, according to the form, “Data brokers may use these IDs to track your habits and sell or share your data.”\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Vehicle Identification Number (found on your car’s registration documents)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>According to the DROP form, the “more information you provide, the more likely your personal data will be deleted.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The entire process – if you have these unique numbers on hand – takes under 10 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After submitting the form, you will receive a DROP ID. You should save this ID, and you can use it to \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/dropstatus\">track the state of your deletion request\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the state’s DROP website, the information you put in the form \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">“won’t be sold or shared for any other reason.” \u003c/a>The \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/personal-information-and-data-brokers/\">state’s website\u003c/a> explains how it encrypts input data and what data brokers see in your requests.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069528\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12069528 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The new DROP law means that in August 2026, data brokers are required by law to start clearing their records every 45 days. \u003ccite>(Rain Star/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Does submitting a DROP request cost anything? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>No. Submitting a DROP request is free.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Can I submit a DROP form for someone else?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yes, you can submit a request for another person, like your child or your parent. The person must still be a California resident, and they must have given you permission to submit the DROP request for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you are submitting a form for another person, you must use \u003cem>their \u003c/em>details when verifying California residency, not your own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After filling out the other person’s information, you will then need to provide your full name and your email address.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How does DROP work?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What data of mine will be deleted as part of DROP?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The new DROP law means that in August 2026, data brokers are required by law to start clearing their records every 45 days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to your phone number, this information about you that data brokers must begin to delete may include your:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Name\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Birthday\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Address\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Email address\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Geolocation\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Health data\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Interests, such as your political party affiliation or your hobbies.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>There are exceptions to what data these brokers must delete: For example, publicly available information (like a court appearance or property records) will not be deleted under DROP.[aside postID=news_12055606 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/USImmigrationCustomsEnforcementHQGetty.jpg']\u003cstrong>Where will the data be deleted from? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the DROP form, “All current and future data brokers who register with CalPrivacy are included in your deletion request.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can check out \u003ca href=\"https://cppa.ca.gov/data_broker_registry/\">the list of active data brokers on the DROP website\u003c/a>, and even directly opt in for the ones you actually wish to be listed on. (\u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">According to the state website\u003c/a>, deleting your information could lead to a less personalized web experience, like targeted ads.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How long will it take for the data to be deleted?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Data brokers will start the deletion process on Aug. 1, 2026, and you’ll likely begin to see updates from brokers to your requests on \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/\">your DROP profile\u003c/a> by then. The \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/how-drop-works/\">possible status updates\u003c/a> are:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Deleted: \u003c/strong>Your data is deleted and will not be sold.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Exempted: \u003c/strong>Your data is allowed to be kept because it is exempted by the privacy law, such as a court or public record.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Opted-out: \u003c/strong>Data brokers couldn’t find the exact information you input.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Record not found: \u003c/strong>Data brokers could not find the information at \u003cem>all\u003c/em>.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Pending: \u003c/strong>Your deletion request is still being processed.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>You may need to \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/personal-information-and-data-brokers/\">provide more information\u003c/a> or take extra steps if data brokers are unable to fulfill your request.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After Aug. 1, data brokers are \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">required to delete information every 45 days\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/how-drop-works/\">take up to 90 days to give an update\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Constant spam calls and fake texts \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/08/08/nx-s1-5494743/weve-all-gotten-those-hiring-scam-texts-instead-of-deleting-this-writer-played-along\">promising job offers\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/yrechtman/status/2008946516820406366?s=46&t=7BBzFwo6eYLzJIVfAlumEQ\">easy cash\u003c/a> or, in some cases, a coffee date, have been the bane of my existence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s not just me. According to the consumer advocacy organization \u003ca href=\"https://pirg.org/edfund/\">US PIRG Education Fund\u003c/a>, Americans received \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbsnews.com/news/robocalls-on-the-rise-heres-why/\">2.56 \u003cem>billion \u003c/em>robocalls per month\u003c/a> from January to September 2025. And in recent years, scammers have increased their use of text messaging or DMs on social media platforms to get your information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’ve ever wondered, “How are they even getting my phone number?” it’s because these scammers \u003ca href=\"https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-proposes-rule-to-stop-data-brokers-from-selling-sensitive-personal-data-to-scammers-stalkers-and-spies/\">usually obtain your contact details\u003c/a> from data brokers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But this year, a feature of \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/about-drop-and-the-delete-act/\">California’s privacy law\u003c/a> called the Delete Request and Opt-out Platform (or DROP) is kicking in, allowing anyone living in the state to limit the amount of information available to these brokers by submitting deletion requests to have their information manually removed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because data brokers \u003ca href=\"https://epic.org/issues/consumer-privacy/data-brokers/\">collect and sell a plethora of personal information\u003c/a> about you — including names, addresses, income, political party, shopping habits and more, there are other reasons beyond spam calls to want your details removed from their databases.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>It’s a good way to upkeep digital privacy and prevent other bodies — \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12055606/how-ice-is-using-your-data-and-what-you-can-do-about-it\">including, increasingly, federal agencies \u003c/a>— from accessing even more information about you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Keep reading for an overview of the DROP law, from what it does to how to submit a request yourself. The state also has \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">its own thorough resource on navigating DROP\u003c/a>, including \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/personal-information-and-data-brokers/\">what it means to delete your personal data\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How you can use DROP\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Who can submit a DROP request? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can use DROP if you are a California resident, and must accordingly \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/check-eligibility\">verify that you are a California resident\u003c/a> when you fill out the form, by either:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Providing personal information,\u003c/strong> including name, date of birth, address, phone or email. If you cannot provide a phone number or email, you may need to provide a Social Security number or Individual Taxpayer Identification Number. You will give this information on a state website called the \u003ca href=\"https://digitalidstrategy.cdt.ca.gov/\">California Identity Gateway\u003c/a>, which is often used to verify residency. According to the state, this information will only be used to verify your identity and residency and will not be stored or shared.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Creating an account\u003c/strong> through \u003ca href=\"http://login.gov\">login.gov\u003c/a>, a \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/check-eligibility\">“federally hosted identity verification service used by many government agencies.”\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Keep in mind that if you choose to verify either through the California Identity Gateway or login.gov, you will need to use the same method for future DROP requests.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Once your identity is verified, you will be able to proceed with the submission form on the DROP website.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069526\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12069526 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">According to the consumer advocacy organization US PIRG Education Fund, Americans received 2.56 billion robocalls per month from January to September 2025. \u003ccite>(Rain Star/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How can I submit a DROP request?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can submit a request using \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/\">the state’s official DROP website\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After verifying you’re a California resident (see above), you’ll fill out some basic information, including:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Full name (including any other variations of your name, like a maiden name or nickname)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Date of birth\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Zip code(s)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Email address(es), which you’ll be asked to verify by code\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Phone number(s), which you’ll be asked to verify by code\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Any unique IDs you have connected to your phone or smart TV since, according to the form, “Data brokers may use these IDs to track your habits and sell or share your data.”\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Vehicle Identification Number (found on your car’s registration documents)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>According to the DROP form, the “more information you provide, the more likely your personal data will be deleted.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The entire process – if you have these unique numbers on hand – takes under 10 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After submitting the form, you will receive a DROP ID. You should save this ID, and you can use it to \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/dropstatus\">track the state of your deletion request\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the state’s DROP website, the information you put in the form \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">“won’t be sold or shared for any other reason.” \u003c/a>The \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/personal-information-and-data-brokers/\">state’s website\u003c/a> explains how it encrypts input data and what data brokers see in your requests.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069528\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12069528 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The new DROP law means that in August 2026, data brokers are required by law to start clearing their records every 45 days. \u003ccite>(Rain Star/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Does submitting a DROP request cost anything? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>No. Submitting a DROP request is free.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Can I submit a DROP form for someone else?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yes, you can submit a request for another person, like your child or your parent. The person must still be a California resident, and they must have given you permission to submit the DROP request for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you are submitting a form for another person, you must use \u003cem>their \u003c/em>details when verifying California residency, not your own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After filling out the other person’s information, you will then need to provide your full name and your email address.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How does DROP work?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What data of mine will be deleted as part of DROP?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The new DROP law means that in August 2026, data brokers are required by law to start clearing their records every 45 days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to your phone number, this information about you that data brokers must begin to delete may include your:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Name\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Birthday\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Address\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Email address\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Geolocation\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Health data\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Interests, such as your political party affiliation or your hobbies.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>There are exceptions to what data these brokers must delete: For example, publicly available information (like a court appearance or property records) will not be deleted under DROP.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Where will the data be deleted from? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the DROP form, “All current and future data brokers who register with CalPrivacy are included in your deletion request.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can check out \u003ca href=\"https://cppa.ca.gov/data_broker_registry/\">the list of active data brokers on the DROP website\u003c/a>, and even directly opt in for the ones you actually wish to be listed on. (\u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">According to the state website\u003c/a>, deleting your information could lead to a less personalized web experience, like targeted ads.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How long will it take for the data to be deleted?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Data brokers will start the deletion process on Aug. 1, 2026, and you’ll likely begin to see updates from brokers to your requests on \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/\">your DROP profile\u003c/a> by then. The \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/how-drop-works/\">possible status updates\u003c/a> are:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Deleted: \u003c/strong>Your data is deleted and will not be sold.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Exempted: \u003c/strong>Your data is allowed to be kept because it is exempted by the privacy law, such as a court or public record.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Opted-out: \u003c/strong>Data brokers couldn’t find the exact information you input.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Record not found: \u003c/strong>Data brokers could not find the information at \u003cem>all\u003c/em>.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Pending: \u003c/strong>Your deletion request is still being processed.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>You may need to \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/personal-information-and-data-brokers/\">provide more information\u003c/a> or take extra steps if data brokers are unable to fulfill your request.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After Aug. 1, data brokers are \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">required to delete information every 45 days\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/how-drop-works/\">take up to 90 days to give an update\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Common Sense Media and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a> announced Friday they’re backing a consolidated effort to deliver AI chatbot guardrails for children, after dropping their competing ballot measures on the issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The announcement was a surprising turn of events, pairing two players in the space who have often been at odds with each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lobbyists for OpenAI and other major tech industry groups \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">actively opposed a similar bill\u003c/a> co-sponsored by the child advocacy group Common Sense Media in the last legislative session. Gov. Gavin Newsom ultimately \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">vetoed the bill\u003c/a> in October 2025.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Parents & Kids Safe AI Act would require companies to identify youth users and deliver an experience designed to block emotional manipulation and child-targeted advertising, as well as give parents more control. The state’s attorney general’s office would enforce the provisions, and independent annual safety audits would provide accountability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What’s in it for OpenAI?\u003c/strong> Chris Lehane, chief global affairs officer for the San Francisco-based AI developer, said there’s great appeal for the company to partner with Common Sense Media, because it has credibility with voters, lawmakers and parents. “How you build this trust is incredibly important for the societal license to be able to operate,” Lehane said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069332\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12069332 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/phones-at-school-getty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/phones-at-school-getty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/phones-at-school-getty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/phones-at-school-getty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">In September 2024, Gov. Gavin Newsom signed the Phone‑Free Schools Act (AB 3216), which requires every school district, charter school and county education office to adopt policies by July 1, 2026, that limit or prohibit the use of smartphones by students while on campus or under school supervision.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Not mentioned: the company is facing several \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063401/openai-faces-legal-storm-over-claims-its-ai-drove-users-to-suicide-delusions\">lawsuits\u003c/a> from plaintiffs claiming ChatGPT brought on mental delusions and, in four cases, drove people to suicide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What’s in it for Common Sense Media?\u003c/strong> Jim Steyer, the advocacy group’s founder and CEO, said their polling shows overwhelming numbers of California voters, regardless of their party, support stronger AI protections for kids, teens and families. “This is so core to the long-term future of this industry that there are the right kind of protections, and that the public trusts these platforms and the big frontier labs,” Steyer said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m pleased to see a leading child safety organization and a large tech company joining forces on this critical safety issue affecting our children,” wrote Asm. Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, who authored the similar bill Newsom vetoed last year. “The legislature’s role remains unchanged; we have both the role and responsibility to protect California’s children and to represent our constituents.”[aside postID=news_12060365 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/SamAltmanGetty.jpg']“While this is an important milestone, there’s more work to be done and I continue to believe this issue should be tackled by the legislature and governor through a public process inviting all stakeholders to participate,” wrote Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, who authored SB 243, an AI chatbot safety bill that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12058013/newsom-signs-california-ai-transparency-bill-tailored-to-meet-tech-industry-tastes\">did get the governor’s signature\u003c/a> last year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Padilla, however, disagrees with the proposal to put the law into the state constitution, warning that it would create an unnecessarily high bar to revise and update that law in the future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When asked about opting to promote a ballot measure, Steyer argued he’s interested in whatever strategy or combination of strategies gets child safety regulations on the books.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the last year alone, Common Sense Media has sponsored or supported a variety of bills aimed at protecting children online, including social media warning labels and an age verification mandate. “At this pivotal moment for AI, we cannot make the same mistake that we did with social media,” Steyer said, criticizing Silicon Valley companies that have been using children as guinea pigs, and “fueled a youth mental health crisis here in California, and quite frankly, across the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lehane predictably used more measured terms. “We do believe AI is an empowerment tool. It helps people solve really hard problems,” he began, finishing with “Part and parcel of that is making sure parents have the control and are empowered to exercise control in terms of how their kids use it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The initiative’s backers still need to gather signatures to qualify it for the California ballot this November, an effort that Lehane said is likely to begin next month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Common Sense Media and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a> announced Friday they’re backing a consolidated effort to deliver AI chatbot guardrails for children, after dropping their competing ballot measures on the issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The announcement was a surprising turn of events, pairing two players in the space who have often been at odds with each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lobbyists for OpenAI and other major tech industry groups \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">actively opposed a similar bill\u003c/a> co-sponsored by the child advocacy group Common Sense Media in the last legislative session. Gov. Gavin Newsom ultimately \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">vetoed the bill\u003c/a> in October 2025.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Parents & Kids Safe AI Act would require companies to identify youth users and deliver an experience designed to block emotional manipulation and child-targeted advertising, as well as give parents more control. The state’s attorney general’s office would enforce the provisions, and independent annual safety audits would provide accountability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What’s in it for OpenAI?\u003c/strong> Chris Lehane, chief global affairs officer for the San Francisco-based AI developer, said there’s great appeal for the company to partner with Common Sense Media, because it has credibility with voters, lawmakers and parents. “How you build this trust is incredibly important for the societal license to be able to operate,” Lehane said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069332\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12069332 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/phones-at-school-getty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/phones-at-school-getty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/phones-at-school-getty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/phones-at-school-getty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">In September 2024, Gov. Gavin Newsom signed the Phone‑Free Schools Act (AB 3216), which requires every school district, charter school and county education office to adopt policies by July 1, 2026, that limit or prohibit the use of smartphones by students while on campus or under school supervision.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Not mentioned: the company is facing several \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063401/openai-faces-legal-storm-over-claims-its-ai-drove-users-to-suicide-delusions\">lawsuits\u003c/a> from plaintiffs claiming ChatGPT brought on mental delusions and, in four cases, drove people to suicide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What’s in it for Common Sense Media?\u003c/strong> Jim Steyer, the advocacy group’s founder and CEO, said their polling shows overwhelming numbers of California voters, regardless of their party, support stronger AI protections for kids, teens and families. “This is so core to the long-term future of this industry that there are the right kind of protections, and that the public trusts these platforms and the big frontier labs,” Steyer said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m pleased to see a leading child safety organization and a large tech company joining forces on this critical safety issue affecting our children,” wrote Asm. Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, who authored the similar bill Newsom vetoed last year. “The legislature’s role remains unchanged; we have both the role and responsibility to protect California’s children and to represent our constituents.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“While this is an important milestone, there’s more work to be done and I continue to believe this issue should be tackled by the legislature and governor through a public process inviting all stakeholders to participate,” wrote Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, who authored SB 243, an AI chatbot safety bill that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12058013/newsom-signs-california-ai-transparency-bill-tailored-to-meet-tech-industry-tastes\">did get the governor’s signature\u003c/a> last year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Padilla, however, disagrees with the proposal to put the law into the state constitution, warning that it would create an unnecessarily high bar to revise and update that law in the future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When asked about opting to promote a ballot measure, Steyer argued he’s interested in whatever strategy or combination of strategies gets child safety regulations on the books.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the last year alone, Common Sense Media has sponsored or supported a variety of bills aimed at protecting children online, including social media warning labels and an age verification mandate. “At this pivotal moment for AI, we cannot make the same mistake that we did with social media,” Steyer said, criticizing Silicon Valley companies that have been using children as guinea pigs, and “fueled a youth mental health crisis here in California, and quite frankly, across the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lehane predictably used more measured terms. “We do believe AI is an empowerment tool. It helps people solve really hard problems,” he began, finishing with “Part and parcel of that is making sure parents have the control and are empowered to exercise control in terms of how their kids use it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The initiative’s backers still need to gather signatures to qualify it for the California ballot this November, an effort that Lehane said is likely to begin next month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a holiday installment of Save or Scroll, Morgan and the Close All Tabs team get together to talk over the stories they can’t stop thinking about. From OpenAI’s concerning new job posting, to a major RAM shortage, AI artists on the come up, and an antidote to the Manosphere, they’ve got a lot to chew on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Save or Scroll is our series where we team up with guests for a rapid-fire roundup of internet trends that are filling our feeds right now. At the end of each segment, they’ll decide: is the post just for the group chat, or should we save it for a future episode?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC9668443018\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Morgan Sung, Host of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Egusa, Senior Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Maya Cueva, Producer of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Hambrick, Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/news/850537/sam-altman-openai-head-of-preparedness\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sam Altman is hiring someone to worry about the dangers of AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Terrence O’Brien, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/challenges-of-openai-head-of-preparedness-role-2025-12\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why OpenAI’s $555,000 Head of Preparedness Role May Be Hard to Fill\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Sarah E. Needleman, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Business Insider\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/12/28/nx-s1-5656190/ai-chips-memory-prices-ram\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Memory loss: As AI gobbles up chips, prices for devices may rise\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — John Ruwitch, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NPR\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.techradar.com/pro/why-is-ram-so-expensive-right-now-its-more-complicated-than-you-think\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why is RAM so expensive right now? It’s way more complicated than you think\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Wayne Williams, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TechRadar\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/dougmelville/2025/09/27/al-singer-xania-monet-just-charted-on-billboard-signed-3m-deal-is-this-the-future-of-music/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Singer Xania Monet Just Charted On Billboard, Signed $3 Million Deal. Is This The Future Of Music?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Doug Melville, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forbes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.billboard.com/lists/ai-artists-on-billboard-charts/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How Many AI Artists Have Debuted on Billboard’s Charts?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Xander Zellner, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Billboard\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/01/style/trump-zuckerberg-masculinity.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ‘Manosphere’? It’s Planet Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Joseph Bernstein, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSvjuMEkj0H/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D\">“2024 self interviewing my 2025 self”\u003c/a> — @seanjaye1988, Instagram Reel\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome back to Close All tabs. We’ve been on a break the last few weeks, refreshing, relaxing, touching grass. In my case, being back on the East Coast for the holidays, touching a lot of snow. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend here at Open. As many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives, except today we aren’t opening any tabs. That’s right, to kick off the new year, we’re back with another episode of Save or Scroll. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, what is Save or Scroll? This is a game we play every now and then on close all tabs. We do a lot of deep dives on the show, but sometimes I come across a story that’s fascinating and wild and I’m dying to talk about it with someone, but there isn’t necessarily enough to do an entire episode about it. Or I do a little digging and realize that there’s a lot more to the story and it’s definitely worth a deep dive. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a very special Save or Scroll because joining me is the rest of the close all tabs team. On today’s episode, we have senior editor Chris Egusa,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey there!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> producer Maya Cueva,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi, Morgan!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and editor Chris Hambrick.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hello!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So we have all been offline for the last few weeks, and today we’re gonna catch up with a few different tech and internet stories that may have slipped under the radar during the holiday season. And for this episode, each of the four of us has brought one story that we cannot stop thinking about, that’s haunted us throughout our entire holiday break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as a group, we’re gonna decide to Save or Scroll. If we scroll, that means we’ve talked about it, we’re moving on. If we decide to save, that means we’re bookmarking it and we might dive in deeper in a future episode. And based on the stories we brought today, we’re gonna make a few predictions for the new year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You guys ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ready. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m ready.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, Chris E, you’re up first. What did you bring us today?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So if you want to get paid $555,000 to stop the AI apocalypse, I have good news. Open AI is hiring for a new position: head of preparedness. So get excited.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a bit ominous.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re all launching your applications right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So on December 27th, we were treated to kind of a late Christmas present from Mr. Sam Altman, CEO of OpenAI, which side note, is actually within a walking distance of where we are recording right now at the KQED studios. But yeah, he posted on X that the company is hiring for a head of preparedness.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does this mean? You might ask? Here is a little bit of Sam’s post, he said, “We are hiring a head of preparedness. This is a critical role at an important time. Models are improving quickly and are now capable of many great things, but they’re also starting to present some real challenges. The potential impact of models on mental health was something we saw a preview of in 2025. We are also now seeing models get so good at computer security, they’re beginning to find critical vulnerabilities.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So he goes on to say that this person would be responsible for executing the company’s quote preparedness framework, uh, securing AI models for the release of biological capabilities, which, that definitely sounds ominous.Um, and at the end of the post, he warns that it will be a stressful job and that you’ll jump in immediately. So get those resumes ready. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh God. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can I ask a clarifying question?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Please.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Is this basically like they’re hiring someone to pull the plug…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …if it all goes bad?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Great question. And there’ve been some, some online jokes about that as well. Basically, this is a person who is directly responsible for preventing all of the risks posed by all of this ever advancing AI technology.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are calling it an impossible job because those risks are innumerable and impossible to really predict. Right? And like you mentioned Morgan, immediately, uh, there were jokes about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So some people posted a fake open AI job post from a few years ago that was called, uh, Kill Switch Engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is a couple years ago, people dug up this, this fake post. And, uh, in that post, this fake job post under expectations, it listed know how to unplug things, bonus points, if you can throw a bucket of water on the servers too, just in case. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ah. So, yeah, to your point, Morgan,you could like reduce this idea to someone\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> who just is gonna pull the plug if AI gets too powerful, tries to take over the world. Um, other people called this position chief, fall guy, or Chief Scapegoat Officer, which is very funny to me: the idea that like, they’re hiring one person who can absorb all \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">of the blame for whenever anything goes bad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, I’ll just mention a few things to note on this. Uh, it’s actually not a new position, even though it’s kind of being characterized as that OpenAI has had this position in the past. Um, and it actually has a preparedness team, but the people who occupied the position either kept moving into other departments or leaving the company entirely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s been vacant for a little while, and so they’re hiring a new one. Um, the other thing is that Altman has a history of making really big claims about AI’s power and potential. But critics point to the fact that many of these claims are often just hype. So I will turn it to you all. What do you think, is this a good thing that OpenAI is investing in preparedness or is it more AI doomer hype?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It just seems like right now when AI is getting more and OpenAI specifically is getting more criticized than ever, like they probably want someone for that position before, you know, the 15 or so lawsuits over ChatGPT related deaths happened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, exactly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. So I, I do feel like, okay, it is, you know, like it’s some foresight, you know, like in all seriousness. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually feel like a little bit more comfortable, um, if somebody is thinking about like how to prevent a disaster or mitigate it, or at least have some plan in place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, no, I don’t think it’s like doomsday, like I don’t think it’s over the top to think about, like, getting somebody in the position who could give us some steps to follow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s probably better than not having someone thinking \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> about it when you look at the alternative. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I think this is less of a kill switch engineer and more of a, uh, oh, how do we not get sued again, kind of, kind of position, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Does this make you feel more concerned that they are identifying these potentially huge, sort of like, world changing threats or do you see this as, okay, this is a marketing play, essentially?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I’m definitely terrified that they’re already identifying those positions. It almost seems like it’s both and right, because it seems like they’re doing that too, because they know something bad will happen. But also it seems like they’re trying to cover their bases and protect the company. So it’s hard to say that even if we had, if this position gets filled, is it actually gonna protect us? Who knows? Hard to say, so that’s fair.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I, I feel like I’m on the side of the marketing hype because mm-hmm. Who posts a job and then gets on X and they’re like, Hey, by the way, we’re doing this thing. Look at us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re so ahead of it. Right. We’re, you know, like, think kindly of us or think that we are, you know, thinking of you, the public, when it’s really like, you know, wanting a pat on the back. I feel like that’s….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. yeah,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> ….They’re drawing attention to like, you know, they’re doing good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It, it feels calculated for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Based on the story that you brought us on, OpenAI hiring the head of Preparedness, what is your prediction for this year, Chris E.?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so my prediction for 2026 is that we will not see a doomsday scenario with AI this year. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hopefully\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s my prediction. You know, I could be wrong, but instead I think that AI hype will actually start to peter out and we will see the first ripples of a sort of deflating bubble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, a lot of experts have already pointed out how shaky the actual business case is for AI companies. There’s very little actual return on all the investment, and yet we’ve staked this huge chunk of our economy on the idea that this technology will just keep growing and keep getting better and better. Um, so I think maybe the real head of preparedness should be figuring out how to save our economy when AI doesn’t keep improving.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oof. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Agreed\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s why they’ll get paid $555K a year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sign me up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, team, what do we think? Uh, open eyes, head of preparedness. The AI bubble popping. Do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll save it. I’ll keep an eye on it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I’m gonna also save it. I think this is important to keep an eye on. We don’t know what’s gonna happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think we should save it. Yeah. I think this is a very Close All Tabs, uh, kind of thing. It’s, I, we joke about how often we have to cover AI on the show, it’s like, oh my God, another AI story. But also each one brings a new horror and I think it is worth diving into.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> True.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A new flavor of horror.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. We’re saving OpenAI, uh, head of preparedness, and maybe the bubble popping. That’s a save. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I regret to inform you all that I also have an AI related story for you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh no!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so I am up next and, uh, buckle up. We’re gonna talk about the world RAM shortage, uh, and why I still can’t play Oblivion, Remastered. So if there are any electronic devices on your wishlist for this year, buy them now. Buy them right now because I bought a Steam Deck on Black Friday, after agonizing over it for literally years because I can’t make decisions about big purchases very easily. So I have barely been outside during my break. I have developed a callous on my thumb from playing Hades II. I’m having a great time, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Steam Deck annual winter seal rolls around and I’m filling up my cart. There are great deals. And then I realize, oh, I’m gonna run outta space. And so I ran to Google and searched, uh, best micro SD card for Steam Deck Reddit, uh, as you do, you know, gotta slap on the Reddit. And then I fell down this rabbit hole of panicked posts about the global memory storage shortage, uh, thanks to the AI industry.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Shocking to no one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Shocking to no one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The AI industry is using resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So AI data centers need like an obscene amount of memory chips called RAM, uh, random access memory. And these are the chips that let your laptop like, open multiple programs, uh, without crashing or gaming systems and consoles to run games without lagging. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it’s like, temporary memory at at its most basic. Um, data centers need a lot of RAM and along with graphics cards.They need both of these, uh, technologies to train and operate AI models 24/7. One data center’s ram, uh, capacity can power something like a million laptops all at once. And AI companies right now are buying up the world supply of ram. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what does this have to do with storage? Let me tell you. According to TechRadar, there are three main players that control the whole global market of memory chip production, um, SK Hynix, Samsung, and Micron.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so these giants are also producers of flash memory and like, that’s like the static, like, kind of like a file cabinet, you know. It’s just like a space to dump your files. It’s like SD cards, external hard drives, USB, flash drives, um, all that. So they’re making both, right? They’re making RAM, they’re making the flash memory. They got their hands on everything. And because of the AI boom, these memory chip producers are shifting to producing more RAM, um, specifically for large scale AI centers. And because of this, they’re making less flash memory products and also making less products for consumers in general. They’re, like, deprioritizing consumer production in order to meet the demand for enterprise companies, which make a lot more money. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These memory chip companies are expanding their production, but they’re gonna hit a wall, uh, very quickly in the next year. And so that means that anything electronic is going to skyrocket price-wise: laptops, TVs, consoles. Like, even if you build a PC from scratch, each individual part that you’re buying is going to be more expensive because the major players that create both kinds of memory products are shifting to cater to AI data centers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, let, let me, let me get this straight, Morgan. Um, you’re saying that it’s fiscally responsible for me to buy a Switch 2 this week?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Definitely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Genuinely, yes. It’s not just the tariffs that are driving up prices. It turns out it goes way, way deeper than that.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So amazing how one thing just affects everything, everything else down the line. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Everything.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s wild is that, um, Trend Force did this whole, uh, report on the, the future of consumer electronics, and they predicted that smartphone and laptop RAM will actually decrease over time because of the shortage.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so for example, my 2-year-old iPhone has 8 gigabytes of RAM, and the newest ones go as high as like 12. But because of the shortage, uh, smartphones might actually start at 4 gigabytes, which is what iPhones ran on in like 2017 when like running Snapchat and YouTube at the same time made your phone hot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hmm. So you’re saying we’re, we’re now in a place where smartphones are going to become dumber again? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s our future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, soon you won’t be able to run, uh, YouTube and scroll at the same time on your phone, um, if you don’t have enough RAM. Personally I’m annoyed because I really want to play Oblivion Remastered on my Steam Deck because I have discovered the joy of gaming while lying down. And I can’t do that because I don’t have enough space.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to the team, Morgan\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dreams deferred. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Does this just mean that we’re gonna have to keep buying new electronics all the time because of all the…If they’re making less and less storage or RAM space, like yeah, what does that mean for us as consumers? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s true. We, we used to be able to, the idea of future proofing your purchases, right. You buy something that’s like, good enough to last you for a long time.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now if the stuff you’re buying is getting worse and worse, uh, it’s, it feels like that’s a cycle you don’t want to get into.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, I think this shortage, uh, and the conversation we’re having is kind of like a, a precursor. It’s a little preview of what the future of consuming could look like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For sure. So Morgan, do you have a prediction for 2026?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I don’t know if this is a prediction for 2026, so much as like for the future in general, but I do wonder if games are gonna get smaller, um, because it’s just gonna be really expensive to keep equipping memory if memory is now a precious resource. Also this is less of a prediction and more of a hope, but I really hope that, uh, physical copies of games become more of a thing again. I really miss the days of trading DS cartridges with my siblings, and I think that was really sweet. We should bring that back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A hundred percent. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sounds fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll swap DS cartridges with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you. If we can ever get them back,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m sure, you know, I’m sure we’ll find out like right as this episode airs that we actually can’t make DS cartridges anymore because we don’t have the storage for them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Turns out AI now needs DS cartridges to run. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So my question for all of you, um, now that we’ve discussed the global memory shortage and my inability to keep buying games that I won’t play, uh, is do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think this is gonna roll into a bigger thing.I think save,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah. I, I would say let’s, let’s save it. it feels like this is gonna change consumer electronics going forward. It’s a big deal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, I’ll say save too. What do you think Morgan?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Uh, I wanna save it because I’m annoyed. This is my personal gripe now. Um, and I really want to eventually play Oblivion, Remastered, but I think I’ll have to delete like two games to make room for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. We’re saving. So, so far we’ve got two saves. We’re stacking our slate for 2026.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So now I have a really wild story for you guys. Um,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wait, wait. I’m so sorry, Maya. We legally have to take a quick break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, fine. We’ll get back to it after the break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, we’re back. Maya, it is finally your turn. What did you bring us today? What was the story that has haunted you throughout our break,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. So when I say the phrase AI artists, what do you guys think of?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of nonsensical Christmas music lyrics.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of, uh, it’s always like some guy on Twitter who’s like, Ugh, look at my art that I made using ChatGPT or Gemini or Midjourney. And it’s like, dude, you just typed words. You didn’t make that art.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think of like an imaginary artist creating AI art or something? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, yeah. So AI artists are actually online figures who look like real musicians or actresses, but are actually completely created by AI. So they’re not real humans, they are fake. So in 2025 there were a few AI artists generated. One of them was AI artist, Xania Monet, who’s an R&B artist, and she was actually created by Telisha “Nikki” Jones, who’s a poet. And I have a clip of her that I’ll play right now for you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Xania Monet in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just want to take a moment to say thank you for the love, the support, the videos… \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, I did not like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So it’s really creepy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, thanks. I hate it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t need that from her. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. Um, so it’s really, really creepy because she sounds real. She doesn’t look that real, but she does sound real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And just to clarify, Maya, that was the AI voice that we were hearing right there, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. That was the AI voice of Xania Monet. Um, and so she actually charted on Spotify last year, 2025. Um, and she got a multimillion dollar deal as well, which is just wild. And she’s not real. She’s completely fake. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So also in 2025, there was an artist that was created who was actually an AI actress, and her name is Tilly Norwood. And she was created by former actor Eline Van Der Velden. And now there’s a whole new studio called Tilly-verse to help expand Tilly Norwood. Um, I actually have a clip from an interview with Tilly Norwood, um, on a podcast that we’ll play right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Tilly Norwood in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, I’m Tilly Norwood, the world’s first AI actor. Delighted to meet you. I’m so excited to be on Good Morning Britain. I may look real but there is no need to be afraid of me. I am just here to spice up entertainment and tell stories in a new way. I hope you’ll be seeing more of me.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is shades of “Black Mirror.” I don’t know. I have mixed feelings about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But yeah, so both of those are both AI generated. So we have, um, Xania Monet, who’s the R&B artist who got the multimillion dollar deal, who you first heard from, and then there’s Tilly Norwood. Um, but I wanted to ask all of you, like, first of all, for Xania, do you feel like is it’s ethical to actually sign them to record deals, AI artists? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well that, that is my question and maybe, maybe you can share a little bit on this, Maya, but like, what does it mean to sign an AI artist to a record deal? Like who is signing, who is signing on the dotted line? You know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, so I actually had to look this up because I also was confused. Um, so it looks like Telisha “Nikki” Jones, who is the poet that actually created her, is the one who gets the money from the record deal. Um, and apparently Telisha Jones also writes the lyrics for Xania Monet. Um, so I think that’s how she can kind of make the case that she should be the one to get the money, I guess, for the deal. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That makes sense to me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This reminds me of, do you guys know Lil Miquela?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No. Who’s that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so she is a CGI influencer, or, or I guess her whole thing was being a virtual influencer and she claimed to be AI like back in 2016. But in reality it was just like CGI and like motion capture. Um, and she’s created by this like, marketing team.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, wait, let me see ifI can find a video for you. It’s so weird. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Lil Miquela in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starting this year, I’m committed to making choices that show I care for the planet and sustaining yourself is just as important. That’s why I rely on Liquid IV for self-care. It keeps me feeing good so I can look and do good. That’s the energy I’m bringing into ….\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so that’s Lil Miquela. Um, and her whole thing is being like a CGI influencer, but from what I understand, it’s like a person in a motion capture suit underneath. And they say that they use AI for like digital rendering, but it’s like a person tracking. Um, and like it’s a person’s voice allegedly. Um, and there’s like a marketing team behind her. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it reminded me of that when you mentioned this, but like that was what we just watched was like a Liquid IV ad. And so this it, the CGI influencer has been used to market and like get brand deals for years since 2016. And then it has gotten canceled a couple times because, uh, at one point, I think this year she made a video where she was like, I have leukemia.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was part…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my gosh!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …of a campaign to like raise money for leukemia research, where I think like bone marrow donations. Uh, people have been like weirded out by her for the last decade.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel like the AI actresses that you’re talking about, Maya, or like the, was it Xania Monet? feels like the next step of this where they’ve removed the actual people who are running this virtual girl’s social pages and it’s just generated now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. No, that’s super interesting.That you bring that up. So apparently for Tilly-verse, which is the studio that’s gonna help expand Tilly Norwood, who is the AI actress, they’re claiming that they’re actually gonna be creating jobs. So they would have somebody who’s like running the social media or writing the scripts and the dialogue and things like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But my question is, is like, well, what happens when they can just train AI to do that? So maybe they’ll hire human workers, right? But then eventually they’ll just get replaced as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well they said they’re creating jobs, but they didn’t say if they were human jobs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? They said…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It could be AI jobs\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They claimed that it would be like for humans, but they could easily, like Morgan was saying, with what happened to Lil Miquela that like, they could just be replaced by AI as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And my thing is like, I don’t like being fooled, and so there’s a little bit of comfort already knowing the people behind these people. But like, I worry about down the road when somebody first encounters an AI actress or an ar- AI musician, and we don’t even talk about the person behind it. I’m like, who is this for? Like, okay,these advances are made in order so that humans can go do things that they want to do. Like I think we enjoy making, um, art and acting and songs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMaya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like who is it for?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And like, what are we enjoying exactly.too?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right? What are we enjoying? Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, do, do we just enjoy the thing we see on the screen? Or do we enjoy the idea that there’s intention and artistic endeavor behind it? This also makes me think like in some ways, yes, this is slightly, it’s dystopian and slightly terrifying, but in, in another way, it’s not that different from like, our current sort of model of famous Hollywood actors/celebrity culture.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Cause we already have humans who are kind of fake. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they are like industries of themselves. They have teams behind them, even though we, we see them as, as represented as a single person. But, you know, you think of like any Hollywood A-lister and they’re gonna have an operational team. They’re gonna have a marketing team. They’re gonna have, you know, like probably hundreds of people employed, keeping this one person’s image going. So,like, in a weird way, it’s kind of like reducing that to, its like core-most essence. Of like, we already have fake people in celebrity culture, and this is like the fakest version of that, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. We’re already seeing just their persona riight. What they want us to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s no, there’s no facade about it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re just like, this is fake.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. That’s interesting. Well, I also think about just, I don’t know, maybe people are already, celebrities are already perpetuating these tropes anyways, but I’m just thinking about the tropes that these AI artists might be perpetuating.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like, Xania Monet being a Black R&B artist. And then Tilly Norwood is this white woman and they said that they are depicting a white woman, right, because it’s not real. Um, but their creators already said like, oh, this is how we want them to be presented. Tilly Norwood should kind of come across as this like, girl next door.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? Um, so yeah. I’m just wondering the types of tropes that they would already, that would, they would be perpetuating about like Black and brown artists, about women. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They are kind of by default caricatures, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because they’re not real people. It’s interesting. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. Maya, Xania Monet and Tilly Norwood. What is your prediction for the next year uh, based on what you brought us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So I do feel that these AI artists will make it harder for human artists, um, to be able to book roles or even get record deals because now it seems like anyone can just make a generated artist. I also feel like with the Tilly-verse, which is the studio that’s helping expand Tilly Norwood, um, that they’ll eventually just replace the human workers, that they claim they’re gonna be hiring, with AI.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I feel like that could happen like within the year, um, or everything will pop and these AI will crash, but I don’t think that’s gonna happen within this year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Xania Monet will be the first victim of the AI bubble popping. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’ll be the first to cover it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Okay. Team thoughts. Should we save AI artists for a close all tabs deep dive, or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I gotta be honest. I’m ready to scroll past these AI artists. I don’t want them in my feed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I agree. But I wanna save this because I do feel like I wanna do some kind of story on this later. So I’m gonna say save. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s fair.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m gonna say scroll. I feel like it’s, it’s interesting because it’s new right now, but I’m just like meh, you know, I’ll see how it shakes out. You know,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah, I, I’m sorry, Maya. I’m scrolling because..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, no.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lil Miquela did it first, and I’m waiting, I’m waiting for a little bit for Lil Miquela to feud with one of these fakers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh my God, God. Lil Miquela off the top rope.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well then we gotta save it ‘cause we gotta follow their feud.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know. I, I say save if, we’ll, we’ll come back to it if Lil Miquela weighs in on AI artists.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so last story for the day. Chris H what did you bring us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so I saw this video while I was scrolling Instagram. This user, SeanJaye1988, posted this reel where he stitched together two videos. So one of them was filmed at the end of 2024 where he was asking himself questions. And the second video was filmed at the end of 2025 when he answered those questions posed by his former self.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Did you lose weight?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: 15 lbs, Shawty!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you still driving that car?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Hell naw! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Because that m-r is on like 200,000 miles.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: That m—r said “poof!”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Did you start your podcast?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Absolutely not..\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so these questions were around like his progress on goals that he set for himself. Like, did you move? Are you still at the same job? And at the end of this, he asked himself, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you okay? Do you love yourself?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you okay? Do you love yourself? And it seemed as if he had very much not been okay in 2024, so that’s why his former self was checking in about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in response, the 2025 version, Sean blew air out of his lips and then press them together and turned to the side and his eyes look kind of glassy. And then he finally was like, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Yes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you making sure you’re okay?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: I pray that you are. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: I am. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. That was really sweet.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what I think is really interesting about the video is that, you know, he says yes, but you know, it’s something that he’s looks like he’s still working on, you know? Um, but what I really, um, enjoyed about this is because like, yeah, it’s, you know, somebody posting something that could seem performative. I’m processing this real time thing, you know, like in public, on social media. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’ve seen different versions of like this sort of thing, asking your future self questions. But like, this one had a lot of sincerity and a lot of emotionality and a rare, um, for me, seen moment of vulnerability from a man online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, and so I feel like it’s a counter to this article that came out at the beginning of 2025, from the New York Times, talking about how big the Manosphere was and how like, if you think that it’s only on the fringes, you’re you’re wrong because it’s, it’s right here. It’s Earth. The manosphere is Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s all of this like misogyny and toxic masculinity in American culture and politics. It’s, it’s, it’s right here. Um, so this is one that I, I really thought, you know, was interesting and I would love to see more of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, down with the manosphere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What, what would we call this instead of the, the manosphere?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, the emotion…emotion bonanza\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the feelingsphere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Feelingsphere! I like feelingsphere. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I looked at, uh, some other post on this guy’s account and they all seem very rooted in being vulnerable out loud. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, he’s got posts about his weight. It’s, you know, one where he’s at, uh, a wedding and somehow he got the mic. I think he’s in the wedding party and, and so these real life moments that he is sharing, you know. And I think of that in light of all the podcasters and male bloggers who focus on like sports and gambling and rah-rah red-blooded American male… Like, you know, I hope this guy does start a podcast, um, where he gets like more vulnerable and encourages other guys to, um, kind of beat back this, you know, masculinity that is actually a backlash to feminism, the rise of feminism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s like you said, I, I was really drawn to the authenticity in this. The fact that it… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Same \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …did not, it could have felt so performative and I can imagine what that version of the video looks like and this, it really felt like he was having a conversation earnestly with, with his past self. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, I think that’s hard to do online. Uh, I thought it was really touching.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I thought so too. And I also liked that it felt like a live vision board in a way, or like or not even a vision board.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> More so like, here’s what happened, here’s what we hope where we’re gonna happen, and then we get to see like what actually ended up happening for him 2025.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. There are a lot of things where, you know, people like sit down and like do tactile things \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And pull out and like pen and paper and cut up magazines. But this one is like, hey, if you’re already operating, you know, in the online sphere, if you’ve already got your phone in your hand all the time, like this is like a very, um, low lift way for you to just like document what were the things that were on my mind…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …and like, check in later, so long as you can find the video. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right, right, right. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You gotta be organized.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You know, I, not to be cynical, but when you first sent this video, I was like, oh God, it’s another performative male thing. Like, I don’t know if you remember this, like last year was the year of performative male contests where like guys would put on their baggiest jeans and their, like all their labubus hooked onto it, bring their tote bags and their flowers and their like little Bell Hooks back, like copies to the park and compete as the most performative male.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was kind of like a funny commentary on like how, uh, you know, guys were trying to not be the manosphere guy, like this like soft kind of person who is sensitive and listens to women and reads feminist material. Um, but then, you know, at the core they’re still kind of like players, whatever. And I was expecting that kind of thing, but it was nice to see something more authentic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, I don’t know, maybe that’s me. I’m too cynical about the internet, but I hope, I hope this kind of continues.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Lemme ask a question. Just because I am the only, I guess, male representative in this space, uh, uh, right now on our team.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, that we, you have the manosphere on one side, right? Uh, we all know what that is: the Joe Rogans of the world and the Andrew Tates and all of that. Um, and then you talk about the like performative mail and how that was really a big thing last year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I just wonder like not to be like a male apologist, but like what are men supposed to do? What space are they supposed to occupy? You know, because like, I think you could imagine some men trying to sort of distance themselves from the manosphere stuff and then being called performative.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and so like what, what is the right, uh, in your opinion in 2026, what, what does that look like? Like what is an authentic, like, non-toxic man supposed to present as and supposed to be in the world? Um, that’s not performative.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, when the whole performative male contests, uh, you know, were, when they, those were all taking off across the country. There were so many think pieces about like, how do men act online? Like, oh no. Um, and I think those contests were really like a commentary on how the manosphere and this like archetype of like this, the TikTok soft boy, it’s really like a horseshoe. You know, they’re, they’re a lot closer than you think because they’re performing, uh, they’re performing being woke, but like in public, but then in secret and or in private still mistreating women. And so I think really it’s just being normal to woman online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, it’s the toxic traits are still there at the core.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Just they’re like wrapped up in a tote bag and a labubu.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>All:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Just being normal\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Be genuine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s, it’s possible guys. It’s possible. Just be normal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Chris H., I have to know, based on this not performative male, not manosphere content that you just showed us, what is your prediction for 2026?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. I think that this is gonna be a year where more men feel comfortable being vulnerable publicly online…and sincerely, um, like maybe we’ll see more of these, um, checking in with your past self videos, and hopefully all the men who have, um, repressed these emotions, uh, they start leaking out and they get to release them as a healthier method of, um, being instead of like blowing things up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, team, an antidote to the manosphere. Do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I vote to save this because, you know, we’ve been talking about doing something on the manosphere in general, but I kind of like looking at this, what’s beyond the manosphere? How, how might it be rejected in the next year?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, you know, I am surprising myself because I am on the fence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, I, I like a good internet trend. I hope that this will take off, but I wanna see it, um, sort of in the background. I want it to happen without it going, Hey, look what men are doing.You know? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I can just like be, I took note of that. That’s neat. More of that, please. Scroll.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then you’re back in the performative space,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> More labubus.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Although I do wanna see an antidote to the manosphere. I feel like I would scroll past this personally, but I don’t know Morgan, what you think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, you know, I’ve been scrolling past the manosphere content because I don’t wanna see it. Um, and I don’t wanna platform it. Um, and then this, it’s like, I, I like that it’s happening. I, I think it’s good for humanity but I’m gonna scroll because I don’t wanna make a Not All Men episode. Sorry, Chris.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Crushing. Crushing. I mean, do I need a retort? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, uh, so sorry Chris, we are, Chris E. We are scrolling on men being vulnerable online, but we do want more of it in the world. We do want it, we want it to happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll save it on my, my personal feed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well guys, thanks for joining me for Save or Scroll.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. I’ll see you in a year.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks Morgan. This was super fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Thanks Morgan. This was a lot of fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right, well, that is it for Save or Scroll. We’re keeping tabs on everything that we did save, so don’t be surprised if one of those stories shows up as a deep dive in your feed. We’ll be back next week with more Close All Tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nClose All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Hambrick is our editor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? And if you \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "In a holiday installment of Save or Scroll, Morgan and the Close All Tabs team get together to talk over the stories they can’t stop thinking about. From OpenAI’s concerning new job posting, to a major RAM shortage, AI artists on the come up, and an antidote to the Manosphere, they’ve got a lot to chew on.Save or Scroll is our series where we team up with guests for a rapid-fire roundup of internet trends that are filling our feeds right now. At the end of each segment, they’ll decide: is the post just for the group chat, or should we save it for a future episode?",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a holiday installment of Save or Scroll, Morgan and the Close All Tabs team get together to talk over the stories they can’t stop thinking about. From OpenAI’s concerning new job posting, to a major RAM shortage, AI artists on the come up, and an antidote to the Manosphere, they’ve got a lot to chew on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Save or Scroll is our series where we team up with guests for a rapid-fire roundup of internet trends that are filling our feeds right now. At the end of each segment, they’ll decide: is the post just for the group chat, or should we save it for a future episode?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC9668443018\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Morgan Sung, Host of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Egusa, Senior Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Maya Cueva, Producer of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Hambrick, Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/news/850537/sam-altman-openai-head-of-preparedness\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sam Altman is hiring someone to worry about the dangers of AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Terrence O’Brien, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/challenges-of-openai-head-of-preparedness-role-2025-12\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why OpenAI’s $555,000 Head of Preparedness Role May Be Hard to Fill\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Sarah E. Needleman, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Business Insider\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/12/28/nx-s1-5656190/ai-chips-memory-prices-ram\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Memory loss: As AI gobbles up chips, prices for devices may rise\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — John Ruwitch, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NPR\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.techradar.com/pro/why-is-ram-so-expensive-right-now-its-more-complicated-than-you-think\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why is RAM so expensive right now? It’s way more complicated than you think\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Wayne Williams, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TechRadar\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/dougmelville/2025/09/27/al-singer-xania-monet-just-charted-on-billboard-signed-3m-deal-is-this-the-future-of-music/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Singer Xania Monet Just Charted On Billboard, Signed $3 Million Deal. Is This The Future Of Music?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Doug Melville, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forbes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.billboard.com/lists/ai-artists-on-billboard-charts/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How Many AI Artists Have Debuted on Billboard’s Charts?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Xander Zellner, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Billboard\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/01/style/trump-zuckerberg-masculinity.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ‘Manosphere’? It’s Planet Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Joseph Bernstein, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSvjuMEkj0H/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D\">“2024 self interviewing my 2025 self”\u003c/a> — @seanjaye1988, Instagram Reel\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome back to Close All tabs. We’ve been on a break the last few weeks, refreshing, relaxing, touching grass. In my case, being back on the East Coast for the holidays, touching a lot of snow. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend here at Open. As many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives, except today we aren’t opening any tabs. That’s right, to kick off the new year, we’re back with another episode of Save or Scroll. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, what is Save or Scroll? This is a game we play every now and then on close all tabs. We do a lot of deep dives on the show, but sometimes I come across a story that’s fascinating and wild and I’m dying to talk about it with someone, but there isn’t necessarily enough to do an entire episode about it. Or I do a little digging and realize that there’s a lot more to the story and it’s definitely worth a deep dive. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a very special Save or Scroll because joining me is the rest of the close all tabs team. On today’s episode, we have senior editor Chris Egusa,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey there!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> producer Maya Cueva,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi, Morgan!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and editor Chris Hambrick.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hello!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So we have all been offline for the last few weeks, and today we’re gonna catch up with a few different tech and internet stories that may have slipped under the radar during the holiday season. And for this episode, each of the four of us has brought one story that we cannot stop thinking about, that’s haunted us throughout our entire holiday break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as a group, we’re gonna decide to Save or Scroll. If we scroll, that means we’ve talked about it, we’re moving on. If we decide to save, that means we’re bookmarking it and we might dive in deeper in a future episode. And based on the stories we brought today, we’re gonna make a few predictions for the new year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You guys ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ready. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m ready.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, Chris E, you’re up first. What did you bring us today?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So if you want to get paid $555,000 to stop the AI apocalypse, I have good news. Open AI is hiring for a new position: head of preparedness. So get excited.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a bit ominous.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re all launching your applications right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So on December 27th, we were treated to kind of a late Christmas present from Mr. Sam Altman, CEO of OpenAI, which side note, is actually within a walking distance of where we are recording right now at the KQED studios. But yeah, he posted on X that the company is hiring for a head of preparedness.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does this mean? You might ask? Here is a little bit of Sam’s post, he said, “We are hiring a head of preparedness. This is a critical role at an important time. Models are improving quickly and are now capable of many great things, but they’re also starting to present some real challenges. The potential impact of models on mental health was something we saw a preview of in 2025. We are also now seeing models get so good at computer security, they’re beginning to find critical vulnerabilities.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So he goes on to say that this person would be responsible for executing the company’s quote preparedness framework, uh, securing AI models for the release of biological capabilities, which, that definitely sounds ominous.Um, and at the end of the post, he warns that it will be a stressful job and that you’ll jump in immediately. So get those resumes ready. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh God. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can I ask a clarifying question?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Please.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Is this basically like they’re hiring someone to pull the plug…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …if it all goes bad?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Great question. And there’ve been some, some online jokes about that as well. Basically, this is a person who is directly responsible for preventing all of the risks posed by all of this ever advancing AI technology.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are calling it an impossible job because those risks are innumerable and impossible to really predict. Right? And like you mentioned Morgan, immediately, uh, there were jokes about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So some people posted a fake open AI job post from a few years ago that was called, uh, Kill Switch Engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is a couple years ago, people dug up this, this fake post. And, uh, in that post, this fake job post under expectations, it listed know how to unplug things, bonus points, if you can throw a bucket of water on the servers too, just in case. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ah. So, yeah, to your point, Morgan,you could like reduce this idea to someone\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> who just is gonna pull the plug if AI gets too powerful, tries to take over the world. Um, other people called this position chief, fall guy, or Chief Scapegoat Officer, which is very funny to me: the idea that like, they’re hiring one person who can absorb all \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">of the blame for whenever anything goes bad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, I’ll just mention a few things to note on this. Uh, it’s actually not a new position, even though it’s kind of being characterized as that OpenAI has had this position in the past. Um, and it actually has a preparedness team, but the people who occupied the position either kept moving into other departments or leaving the company entirely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s been vacant for a little while, and so they’re hiring a new one. Um, the other thing is that Altman has a history of making really big claims about AI’s power and potential. But critics point to the fact that many of these claims are often just hype. So I will turn it to you all. What do you think, is this a good thing that OpenAI is investing in preparedness or is it more AI doomer hype?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It just seems like right now when AI is getting more and OpenAI specifically is getting more criticized than ever, like they probably want someone for that position before, you know, the 15 or so lawsuits over ChatGPT related deaths happened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, exactly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. So I, I do feel like, okay, it is, you know, like it’s some foresight, you know, like in all seriousness. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually feel like a little bit more comfortable, um, if somebody is thinking about like how to prevent a disaster or mitigate it, or at least have some plan in place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, no, I don’t think it’s like doomsday, like I don’t think it’s over the top to think about, like, getting somebody in the position who could give us some steps to follow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s probably better than not having someone thinking \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> about it when you look at the alternative. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I think this is less of a kill switch engineer and more of a, uh, oh, how do we not get sued again, kind of, kind of position, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Does this make you feel more concerned that they are identifying these potentially huge, sort of like, world changing threats or do you see this as, okay, this is a marketing play, essentially?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I’m definitely terrified that they’re already identifying those positions. It almost seems like it’s both and right, because it seems like they’re doing that too, because they know something bad will happen. But also it seems like they’re trying to cover their bases and protect the company. So it’s hard to say that even if we had, if this position gets filled, is it actually gonna protect us? Who knows? Hard to say, so that’s fair.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I, I feel like I’m on the side of the marketing hype because mm-hmm. Who posts a job and then gets on X and they’re like, Hey, by the way, we’re doing this thing. Look at us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re so ahead of it. Right. We’re, you know, like, think kindly of us or think that we are, you know, thinking of you, the public, when it’s really like, you know, wanting a pat on the back. I feel like that’s….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. yeah,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> ….They’re drawing attention to like, you know, they’re doing good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It, it feels calculated for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Based on the story that you brought us on, OpenAI hiring the head of Preparedness, what is your prediction for this year, Chris E.?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so my prediction for 2026 is that we will not see a doomsday scenario with AI this year. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hopefully\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s my prediction. You know, I could be wrong, but instead I think that AI hype will actually start to peter out and we will see the first ripples of a sort of deflating bubble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, a lot of experts have already pointed out how shaky the actual business case is for AI companies. There’s very little actual return on all the investment, and yet we’ve staked this huge chunk of our economy on the idea that this technology will just keep growing and keep getting better and better. Um, so I think maybe the real head of preparedness should be figuring out how to save our economy when AI doesn’t keep improving.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oof. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Agreed\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s why they’ll get paid $555K a year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sign me up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, team, what do we think? Uh, open eyes, head of preparedness. The AI bubble popping. Do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll save it. I’ll keep an eye on it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I’m gonna also save it. I think this is important to keep an eye on. We don’t know what’s gonna happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think we should save it. Yeah. I think this is a very Close All Tabs, uh, kind of thing. It’s, I, we joke about how often we have to cover AI on the show, it’s like, oh my God, another AI story. But also each one brings a new horror and I think it is worth diving into.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> True.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A new flavor of horror.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. We’re saving OpenAI, uh, head of preparedness, and maybe the bubble popping. That’s a save. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I regret to inform you all that I also have an AI related story for you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh no!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so I am up next and, uh, buckle up. We’re gonna talk about the world RAM shortage, uh, and why I still can’t play Oblivion, Remastered. So if there are any electronic devices on your wishlist for this year, buy them now. Buy them right now because I bought a Steam Deck on Black Friday, after agonizing over it for literally years because I can’t make decisions about big purchases very easily. So I have barely been outside during my break. I have developed a callous on my thumb from playing Hades II. I’m having a great time, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Steam Deck annual winter seal rolls around and I’m filling up my cart. There are great deals. And then I realize, oh, I’m gonna run outta space. And so I ran to Google and searched, uh, best micro SD card for Steam Deck Reddit, uh, as you do, you know, gotta slap on the Reddit. And then I fell down this rabbit hole of panicked posts about the global memory storage shortage, uh, thanks to the AI industry.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Shocking to no one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Shocking to no one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The AI industry is using resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So AI data centers need like an obscene amount of memory chips called RAM, uh, random access memory. And these are the chips that let your laptop like, open multiple programs, uh, without crashing or gaming systems and consoles to run games without lagging. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it’s like, temporary memory at at its most basic. Um, data centers need a lot of RAM and along with graphics cards.They need both of these, uh, technologies to train and operate AI models 24/7. One data center’s ram, uh, capacity can power something like a million laptops all at once. And AI companies right now are buying up the world supply of ram. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what does this have to do with storage? Let me tell you. According to TechRadar, there are three main players that control the whole global market of memory chip production, um, SK Hynix, Samsung, and Micron.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so these giants are also producers of flash memory and like, that’s like the static, like, kind of like a file cabinet, you know. It’s just like a space to dump your files. It’s like SD cards, external hard drives, USB, flash drives, um, all that. So they’re making both, right? They’re making RAM, they’re making the flash memory. They got their hands on everything. And because of the AI boom, these memory chip producers are shifting to producing more RAM, um, specifically for large scale AI centers. And because of this, they’re making less flash memory products and also making less products for consumers in general. They’re, like, deprioritizing consumer production in order to meet the demand for enterprise companies, which make a lot more money. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These memory chip companies are expanding their production, but they’re gonna hit a wall, uh, very quickly in the next year. And so that means that anything electronic is going to skyrocket price-wise: laptops, TVs, consoles. Like, even if you build a PC from scratch, each individual part that you’re buying is going to be more expensive because the major players that create both kinds of memory products are shifting to cater to AI data centers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, let, let me, let me get this straight, Morgan. Um, you’re saying that it’s fiscally responsible for me to buy a Switch 2 this week?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Definitely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Genuinely, yes. It’s not just the tariffs that are driving up prices. It turns out it goes way, way deeper than that.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So amazing how one thing just affects everything, everything else down the line. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Everything.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s wild is that, um, Trend Force did this whole, uh, report on the, the future of consumer electronics, and they predicted that smartphone and laptop RAM will actually decrease over time because of the shortage.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so for example, my 2-year-old iPhone has 8 gigabytes of RAM, and the newest ones go as high as like 12. But because of the shortage, uh, smartphones might actually start at 4 gigabytes, which is what iPhones ran on in like 2017 when like running Snapchat and YouTube at the same time made your phone hot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hmm. So you’re saying we’re, we’re now in a place where smartphones are going to become dumber again? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s our future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, soon you won’t be able to run, uh, YouTube and scroll at the same time on your phone, um, if you don’t have enough RAM. Personally I’m annoyed because I really want to play Oblivion Remastered on my Steam Deck because I have discovered the joy of gaming while lying down. And I can’t do that because I don’t have enough space.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to the team, Morgan\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dreams deferred. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Does this just mean that we’re gonna have to keep buying new electronics all the time because of all the…If they’re making less and less storage or RAM space, like yeah, what does that mean for us as consumers? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s true. We, we used to be able to, the idea of future proofing your purchases, right. You buy something that’s like, good enough to last you for a long time.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now if the stuff you’re buying is getting worse and worse, uh, it’s, it feels like that’s a cycle you don’t want to get into.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, I think this shortage, uh, and the conversation we’re having is kind of like a, a precursor. It’s a little preview of what the future of consuming could look like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For sure. So Morgan, do you have a prediction for 2026?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I don’t know if this is a prediction for 2026, so much as like for the future in general, but I do wonder if games are gonna get smaller, um, because it’s just gonna be really expensive to keep equipping memory if memory is now a precious resource. Also this is less of a prediction and more of a hope, but I really hope that, uh, physical copies of games become more of a thing again. I really miss the days of trading DS cartridges with my siblings, and I think that was really sweet. We should bring that back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A hundred percent. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sounds fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll swap DS cartridges with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you. If we can ever get them back,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m sure, you know, I’m sure we’ll find out like right as this episode airs that we actually can’t make DS cartridges anymore because we don’t have the storage for them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Turns out AI now needs DS cartridges to run. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So my question for all of you, um, now that we’ve discussed the global memory shortage and my inability to keep buying games that I won’t play, uh, is do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think this is gonna roll into a bigger thing.I think save,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah. I, I would say let’s, let’s save it. it feels like this is gonna change consumer electronics going forward. It’s a big deal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, I’ll say save too. What do you think Morgan?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Uh, I wanna save it because I’m annoyed. This is my personal gripe now. Um, and I really want to eventually play Oblivion, Remastered, but I think I’ll have to delete like two games to make room for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. We’re saving. So, so far we’ve got two saves. We’re stacking our slate for 2026.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So now I have a really wild story for you guys. Um,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wait, wait. I’m so sorry, Maya. We legally have to take a quick break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, fine. We’ll get back to it after the break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, we’re back. Maya, it is finally your turn. What did you bring us today? What was the story that has haunted you throughout our break,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. So when I say the phrase AI artists, what do you guys think of?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of nonsensical Christmas music lyrics.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of, uh, it’s always like some guy on Twitter who’s like, Ugh, look at my art that I made using ChatGPT or Gemini or Midjourney. And it’s like, dude, you just typed words. You didn’t make that art.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think of like an imaginary artist creating AI art or something? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, yeah. So AI artists are actually online figures who look like real musicians or actresses, but are actually completely created by AI. So they’re not real humans, they are fake. So in 2025 there were a few AI artists generated. One of them was AI artist, Xania Monet, who’s an R&B artist, and she was actually created by Telisha “Nikki” Jones, who’s a poet. And I have a clip of her that I’ll play right now for you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Xania Monet in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just want to take a moment to say thank you for the love, the support, the videos… \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, I did not like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So it’s really creepy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, thanks. I hate it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t need that from her. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. Um, so it’s really, really creepy because she sounds real. She doesn’t look that real, but she does sound real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And just to clarify, Maya, that was the AI voice that we were hearing right there, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. That was the AI voice of Xania Monet. Um, and so she actually charted on Spotify last year, 2025. Um, and she got a multimillion dollar deal as well, which is just wild. And she’s not real. She’s completely fake. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So also in 2025, there was an artist that was created who was actually an AI actress, and her name is Tilly Norwood. And she was created by former actor Eline Van Der Velden. And now there’s a whole new studio called Tilly-verse to help expand Tilly Norwood. Um, I actually have a clip from an interview with Tilly Norwood, um, on a podcast that we’ll play right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Tilly Norwood in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, I’m Tilly Norwood, the world’s first AI actor. Delighted to meet you. I’m so excited to be on Good Morning Britain. I may look real but there is no need to be afraid of me. I am just here to spice up entertainment and tell stories in a new way. I hope you’ll be seeing more of me.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is shades of “Black Mirror.” I don’t know. I have mixed feelings about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But yeah, so both of those are both AI generated. So we have, um, Xania Monet, who’s the R&B artist who got the multimillion dollar deal, who you first heard from, and then there’s Tilly Norwood. Um, but I wanted to ask all of you, like, first of all, for Xania, do you feel like is it’s ethical to actually sign them to record deals, AI artists? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well that, that is my question and maybe, maybe you can share a little bit on this, Maya, but like, what does it mean to sign an AI artist to a record deal? Like who is signing, who is signing on the dotted line? You know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, so I actually had to look this up because I also was confused. Um, so it looks like Telisha “Nikki” Jones, who is the poet that actually created her, is the one who gets the money from the record deal. Um, and apparently Telisha Jones also writes the lyrics for Xania Monet. Um, so I think that’s how she can kind of make the case that she should be the one to get the money, I guess, for the deal. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That makes sense to me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This reminds me of, do you guys know Lil Miquela?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No. Who’s that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so she is a CGI influencer, or, or I guess her whole thing was being a virtual influencer and she claimed to be AI like back in 2016. But in reality it was just like CGI and like motion capture. Um, and she’s created by this like, marketing team.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, wait, let me see ifI can find a video for you. It’s so weird. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Lil Miquela in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starting this year, I’m committed to making choices that show I care for the planet and sustaining yourself is just as important. That’s why I rely on Liquid IV for self-care. It keeps me feeing good so I can look and do good. That’s the energy I’m bringing into ….\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so that’s Lil Miquela. Um, and her whole thing is being like a CGI influencer, but from what I understand, it’s like a person in a motion capture suit underneath. And they say that they use AI for like digital rendering, but it’s like a person tracking. Um, and like it’s a person’s voice allegedly. Um, and there’s like a marketing team behind her. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it reminded me of that when you mentioned this, but like that was what we just watched was like a Liquid IV ad. And so this it, the CGI influencer has been used to market and like get brand deals for years since 2016. And then it has gotten canceled a couple times because, uh, at one point, I think this year she made a video where she was like, I have leukemia.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was part…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my gosh!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …of a campaign to like raise money for leukemia research, where I think like bone marrow donations. Uh, people have been like weirded out by her for the last decade.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel like the AI actresses that you’re talking about, Maya, or like the, was it Xania Monet? feels like the next step of this where they’ve removed the actual people who are running this virtual girl’s social pages and it’s just generated now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. No, that’s super interesting.That you bring that up. So apparently for Tilly-verse, which is the studio that’s gonna help expand Tilly Norwood, who is the AI actress, they’re claiming that they’re actually gonna be creating jobs. So they would have somebody who’s like running the social media or writing the scripts and the dialogue and things like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But my question is, is like, well, what happens when they can just train AI to do that? So maybe they’ll hire human workers, right? But then eventually they’ll just get replaced as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well they said they’re creating jobs, but they didn’t say if they were human jobs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? They said…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It could be AI jobs\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They claimed that it would be like for humans, but they could easily, like Morgan was saying, with what happened to Lil Miquela that like, they could just be replaced by AI as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And my thing is like, I don’t like being fooled, and so there’s a little bit of comfort already knowing the people behind these people. But like, I worry about down the road when somebody first encounters an AI actress or an ar- AI musician, and we don’t even talk about the person behind it. I’m like, who is this for? Like, okay,these advances are made in order so that humans can go do things that they want to do. Like I think we enjoy making, um, art and acting and songs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMaya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like who is it for?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And like, what are we enjoying exactly.too?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right? What are we enjoying? Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, do, do we just enjoy the thing we see on the screen? Or do we enjoy the idea that there’s intention and artistic endeavor behind it? This also makes me think like in some ways, yes, this is slightly, it’s dystopian and slightly terrifying, but in, in another way, it’s not that different from like, our current sort of model of famous Hollywood actors/celebrity culture.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Cause we already have humans who are kind of fake. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they are like industries of themselves. They have teams behind them, even though we, we see them as, as represented as a single person. But, you know, you think of like any Hollywood A-lister and they’re gonna have an operational team. They’re gonna have a marketing team. They’re gonna have, you know, like probably hundreds of people employed, keeping this one person’s image going. So,like, in a weird way, it’s kind of like reducing that to, its like core-most essence. Of like, we already have fake people in celebrity culture, and this is like the fakest version of that, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. We’re already seeing just their persona riight. What they want us to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s no, there’s no facade about it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re just like, this is fake.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. That’s interesting. Well, I also think about just, I don’t know, maybe people are already, celebrities are already perpetuating these tropes anyways, but I’m just thinking about the tropes that these AI artists might be perpetuating.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like, Xania Monet being a Black R&B artist. And then Tilly Norwood is this white woman and they said that they are depicting a white woman, right, because it’s not real. Um, but their creators already said like, oh, this is how we want them to be presented. Tilly Norwood should kind of come across as this like, girl next door.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? Um, so yeah. I’m just wondering the types of tropes that they would already, that would, they would be perpetuating about like Black and brown artists, about women. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They are kind of by default caricatures, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because they’re not real people. It’s interesting. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. Maya, Xania Monet and Tilly Norwood. What is your prediction for the next year uh, based on what you brought us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So I do feel that these AI artists will make it harder for human artists, um, to be able to book roles or even get record deals because now it seems like anyone can just make a generated artist. I also feel like with the Tilly-verse, which is the studio that’s helping expand Tilly Norwood, um, that they’ll eventually just replace the human workers, that they claim they’re gonna be hiring, with AI.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I feel like that could happen like within the year, um, or everything will pop and these AI will crash, but I don’t think that’s gonna happen within this year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Xania Monet will be the first victim of the AI bubble popping. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’ll be the first to cover it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Okay. Team thoughts. Should we save AI artists for a close all tabs deep dive, or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I gotta be honest. I’m ready to scroll past these AI artists. I don’t want them in my feed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I agree. But I wanna save this because I do feel like I wanna do some kind of story on this later. So I’m gonna say save. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s fair.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m gonna say scroll. I feel like it’s, it’s interesting because it’s new right now, but I’m just like meh, you know, I’ll see how it shakes out. You know,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah, I, I’m sorry, Maya. I’m scrolling because..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, no.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lil Miquela did it first, and I’m waiting, I’m waiting for a little bit for Lil Miquela to feud with one of these fakers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh my God, God. Lil Miquela off the top rope.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well then we gotta save it ‘cause we gotta follow their feud.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know. I, I say save if, we’ll, we’ll come back to it if Lil Miquela weighs in on AI artists.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so last story for the day. Chris H what did you bring us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so I saw this video while I was scrolling Instagram. This user, SeanJaye1988, posted this reel where he stitched together two videos. So one of them was filmed at the end of 2024 where he was asking himself questions. And the second video was filmed at the end of 2025 when he answered those questions posed by his former self.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Did you lose weight?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: 15 lbs, Shawty!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you still driving that car?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Hell naw! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Because that m-r is on like 200,000 miles.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: That m—r said “poof!”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Did you start your podcast?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Absolutely not..\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so these questions were around like his progress on goals that he set for himself. Like, did you move? Are you still at the same job? And at the end of this, he asked himself, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you okay? Do you love yourself?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you okay? Do you love yourself? And it seemed as if he had very much not been okay in 2024, so that’s why his former self was checking in about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in response, the 2025 version, Sean blew air out of his lips and then press them together and turned to the side and his eyes look kind of glassy. And then he finally was like, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Yes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you making sure you’re okay?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: I pray that you are. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: I am. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. That was really sweet.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what I think is really interesting about the video is that, you know, he says yes, but you know, it’s something that he’s looks like he’s still working on, you know? Um, but what I really, um, enjoyed about this is because like, yeah, it’s, you know, somebody posting something that could seem performative. I’m processing this real time thing, you know, like in public, on social media. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’ve seen different versions of like this sort of thing, asking your future self questions. But like, this one had a lot of sincerity and a lot of emotionality and a rare, um, for me, seen moment of vulnerability from a man online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, and so I feel like it’s a counter to this article that came out at the beginning of 2025, from the New York Times, talking about how big the Manosphere was and how like, if you think that it’s only on the fringes, you’re you’re wrong because it’s, it’s right here. It’s Earth. The manosphere is Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s all of this like misogyny and toxic masculinity in American culture and politics. It’s, it’s, it’s right here. Um, so this is one that I, I really thought, you know, was interesting and I would love to see more of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, down with the manosphere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What, what would we call this instead of the, the manosphere?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, the emotion…emotion bonanza\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the feelingsphere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Feelingsphere! I like feelingsphere. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I looked at, uh, some other post on this guy’s account and they all seem very rooted in being vulnerable out loud. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, he’s got posts about his weight. It’s, you know, one where he’s at, uh, a wedding and somehow he got the mic. I think he’s in the wedding party and, and so these real life moments that he is sharing, you know. And I think of that in light of all the podcasters and male bloggers who focus on like sports and gambling and rah-rah red-blooded American male… Like, you know, I hope this guy does start a podcast, um, where he gets like more vulnerable and encourages other guys to, um, kind of beat back this, you know, masculinity that is actually a backlash to feminism, the rise of feminism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s like you said, I, I was really drawn to the authenticity in this. The fact that it… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Same \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …did not, it could have felt so performative and I can imagine what that version of the video looks like and this, it really felt like he was having a conversation earnestly with, with his past self. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, I think that’s hard to do online. Uh, I thought it was really touching.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I thought so too. And I also liked that it felt like a live vision board in a way, or like or not even a vision board.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> More so like, here’s what happened, here’s what we hope where we’re gonna happen, and then we get to see like what actually ended up happening for him 2025.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. There are a lot of things where, you know, people like sit down and like do tactile things \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And pull out and like pen and paper and cut up magazines. But this one is like, hey, if you’re already operating, you know, in the online sphere, if you’ve already got your phone in your hand all the time, like this is like a very, um, low lift way for you to just like document what were the things that were on my mind…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …and like, check in later, so long as you can find the video. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right, right, right. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You gotta be organized.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You know, I, not to be cynical, but when you first sent this video, I was like, oh God, it’s another performative male thing. Like, I don’t know if you remember this, like last year was the year of performative male contests where like guys would put on their baggiest jeans and their, like all their labubus hooked onto it, bring their tote bags and their flowers and their like little Bell Hooks back, like copies to the park and compete as the most performative male.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was kind of like a funny commentary on like how, uh, you know, guys were trying to not be the manosphere guy, like this like soft kind of person who is sensitive and listens to women and reads feminist material. Um, but then, you know, at the core they’re still kind of like players, whatever. And I was expecting that kind of thing, but it was nice to see something more authentic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, I don’t know, maybe that’s me. I’m too cynical about the internet, but I hope, I hope this kind of continues.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Lemme ask a question. Just because I am the only, I guess, male representative in this space, uh, uh, right now on our team.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, that we, you have the manosphere on one side, right? Uh, we all know what that is: the Joe Rogans of the world and the Andrew Tates and all of that. Um, and then you talk about the like performative mail and how that was really a big thing last year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I just wonder like not to be like a male apologist, but like what are men supposed to do? What space are they supposed to occupy? You know, because like, I think you could imagine some men trying to sort of distance themselves from the manosphere stuff and then being called performative.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and so like what, what is the right, uh, in your opinion in 2026, what, what does that look like? Like what is an authentic, like, non-toxic man supposed to present as and supposed to be in the world? Um, that’s not performative.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, when the whole performative male contests, uh, you know, were, when they, those were all taking off across the country. There were so many think pieces about like, how do men act online? Like, oh no. Um, and I think those contests were really like a commentary on how the manosphere and this like archetype of like this, the TikTok soft boy, it’s really like a horseshoe. You know, they’re, they’re a lot closer than you think because they’re performing, uh, they’re performing being woke, but like in public, but then in secret and or in private still mistreating women. And so I think really it’s just being normal to woman online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, it’s the toxic traits are still there at the core.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Just they’re like wrapped up in a tote bag and a labubu.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>All:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Just being normal\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Be genuine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s, it’s possible guys. It’s possible. Just be normal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Chris H., I have to know, based on this not performative male, not manosphere content that you just showed us, what is your prediction for 2026?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. I think that this is gonna be a year where more men feel comfortable being vulnerable publicly online…and sincerely, um, like maybe we’ll see more of these, um, checking in with your past self videos, and hopefully all the men who have, um, repressed these emotions, uh, they start leaking out and they get to release them as a healthier method of, um, being instead of like blowing things up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, team, an antidote to the manosphere. Do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I vote to save this because, you know, we’ve been talking about doing something on the manosphere in general, but I kind of like looking at this, what’s beyond the manosphere? How, how might it be rejected in the next year?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, you know, I am surprising myself because I am on the fence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, I, I like a good internet trend. I hope that this will take off, but I wanna see it, um, sort of in the background. I want it to happen without it going, Hey, look what men are doing.You know? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I can just like be, I took note of that. That’s neat. More of that, please. Scroll.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then you’re back in the performative space,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> More labubus.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Although I do wanna see an antidote to the manosphere. I feel like I would scroll past this personally, but I don’t know Morgan, what you think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, you know, I’ve been scrolling past the manosphere content because I don’t wanna see it. Um, and I don’t wanna platform it. Um, and then this, it’s like, I, I like that it’s happening. I, I think it’s good for humanity but I’m gonna scroll because I don’t wanna make a Not All Men episode. Sorry, Chris.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Crushing. Crushing. I mean, do I need a retort? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, uh, so sorry Chris, we are, Chris E. We are scrolling on men being vulnerable online, but we do want more of it in the world. We do want it, we want it to happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll save it on my, my personal feed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well guys, thanks for joining me for Save or Scroll.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. I’ll see you in a year.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks Morgan. This was super fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Thanks Morgan. This was a lot of fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right, well, that is it for Save or Scroll. We’re keeping tabs on everything that we did save, so don’t be surprised if one of those stories shows up as a deep dive in your feed. We’ll be back next week with more Close All Tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nClose All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Hambrick is our editor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? And if you \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "death-robotaxis-and-a-cat-named-kitkat",
"title": "Death, Robotaxis, and a Cat Named KitKat",
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"headTitle": "Death, Robotaxis, and a Cat Named KitKat | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When KitKat, a beloved bodega cat, was killed by a Waymo in San Francisco in late October of this year, the incident quickly went viral. It ignited grief and outrage. It also renewed scrutiny of autonomous vehicles. But in a city where hundreds of animals are hit by vehicles each year, why did this incident — and this particular cat — hit such a nerve? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We hear from Oscar Palma, the first reporter on the scene, about what unfolded the night KitKat was killed. Then, Mission Local managing editor Joe Eskenazi and KQED reporter Sydney Johnson explore the limits of autonomous vehicles and why one cat’s death resonated so deeply in a rapidly gentrifying San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5106693547\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/sjohnson\">Sydney Johnson\u003c/a>, reporter at KQED \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/author/oscarp/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar Palma\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, reporter at Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/joe-eskenazi/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joe Eskenazi\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, managing editor at Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/2025/10/kitkat-mission-liquor-store-mascot-and-16th-st-ambassador-killed-on-monday/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat, liquor store mascot and ‘16th St. ambassador,’ killed — allegedly by Waymo\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Oscar Palma, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12062777/san-francisco-supervisor-calls-for-robotaxi-reform-after-waymo-kills-neighborhood-cat\">San Francisco Supervisor Calls for Robotaxi Reform After Waymo Kills Neighborhood Cat \u003c/a>\u003ci>— Sydney Johnson, \u003ci>KQED\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/05/us/waymo-kit-kat-san-francisco.html\">How Kit Kat Was Killed: Video Shows What a Waymo Couldn’t See \u003c/a>— Heather Knight, \u003ci>The New York Times \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/12/30/1222083720/driverless-cars-gm-cruise-waymo-san-francisco-accidents\">Driverless car startup Cruise’s no good, terrible year\u003c/a> — Dara Kerr, \u003ci>NPR\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2024/11/14/cruise-fine-investigation-dragging-robotaxi/\">Cruise admits lying to feds about dragging woman in San Francisco\u003c/a> — Kevin Truong, \u003ci>The San Francisco Standard\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/2025/12/waymo-confirms-its-car-hit-dog-in-western-addition/\">Waymo hits dog in S.F. weeks after killing Mission bodega cat\u003c/a> — Kelly Waldron, \u003ci>Mission Local\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kron4.com/news/technology-ai/dog-hit-by-waymo-in-sf-put-down-by-family-after-suffering-severe-pelvic-trauma/\">Dog hit by Waymo in SF put down by family after suffering ‘severe pelvic trauma’\u003c/a> — Alex Baker, \u003ci>KRON4\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/business/2025/11/24/the-self-driving-taxi-revolution-begins-at-last\">The self-driving taxi revolution begins at last\u003c/a> — \u003ci>The Economist \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Crowd Chanting “KitKat! KitKat!” ]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last month, KQED reporter Sydney Johnson covered an event in her neighborhood, that was part memorial service, part rally, in San Francisco’s Mission District. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dozens of residents gathered in front of Randa’s Market to remember KitKat, the store’s beloved 9-year-old tabby cat. KitKat was more than a bodega cat — he was known as the Mayor of 16th street. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There were dozens of people there, you know, chitchatting. uh, many of them lived in the neighborhood and were giving each other hugs and, you know, talking about memories that they had of walking by the market after a late night and petting KitKat or, you know, maybe on their way to work and, and giving him a little scratch, uh, when they popped in for a drink in the morning.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s death was particularly devastating for the neighborhood, because it wasn’t old age, or sickness, or even human cruelty that killed him. It was a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s the autonomous rideshare service, also known as a robotaxi.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’d say the vibe of this event was, you know, both. Mournful and, and somber. but also really angry and, and focused.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat was struck and killed in late October, and in the days after, locals mourned him by turning the tree in front of Randa’s Market into a makeshift shrine. Someone had attached a framed photo of KitKat to the tree, and others adorned the frame with flowers and a cat-sized crown. The base of the tree was overflowing with candles, bouquets, handwritten messages, and of course, cat treats. People even scattered KitKat’s namesake candy around the shrine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the time the rally happened a week later, grief had become anger. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But our local supervisor, you know, took some of that anger and outrage and. Really just said, this is a moment where we have to think about these technologies that are being deployed all around us \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s San Francisco Supervisor Jackie Fielder at the rally. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Jackie Fielder at Rally]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The future of autonomous vehicles should be decided by people, not tech, oligarchs and their politicians. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience Member: Yes!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jackie Fielder: Thank you all so much and rest in peace, KitKat. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s death sparked nationwide outrage. He’s become the face of resistance to robotaxis, AI, and the tech industry as a whole. In death, he’s become a viral sensation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Australia News]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a new social justice movement in San Francisco, sparked by the death of a beloved neighborhood cat that was killed by a driverless car.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Inside Edition] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now fans of the adored feline are taking to social media demanding hashtag justice for Kit Kat. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Tiktok]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are mourning a true pillar of the community and who they call the mayor of 16th Street,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo, meanwhile, recently announced its expansion across California. The company has plans to deploy its robotaxis in San Diego, Sacramento, and lots in between. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it kind of became, you know, more than just this cat who died. This is actually now something where people who have been, you know, nervous or uneasy about autonomous vehicles, uh, really had a moment where they were saying, Hey, let’s actually think about how we can avoid this kind of tragedy, uh, especially if it could get even worse in the future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo says its autonomous vehicles are safer than human drivers — at least, they have a lower crash rate. But these cars aren’t infallible. KitKat may be the most viral victim of a robotaxi crash, but he’s not the only one. His death has raised some major concerns about safety, especially as Waymo and other robotaxi companies vie to compete with human-driven rideshares. The loss of this little bodega cat might have sparked a movement … but can these giant tech companies really be reined in? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymos, and robotaxis as a whole, have been pretty controversial since they started hitting streets in 2020. While robotaxi supporters praise the convenience and supposed safety of self-driving cars, detractors have real concerns. They threaten jobs, they disrupt traffic, they can’t make the same decisions that a human driver can, which makes them a nuisance at best and at worst, a public safety hazard. Plus, they represent the tech industry’s rapid encroachment on local communities. Like we covered in one of our very first episodes of this show, it’s what makes Waymos so easy to vandalize: they’re a physical, tangible outlet for this collective anxiety and rage against Silicon Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Los Angeles, Dodgers fans celebrated their team’s World Series win by spray painting and smashing Waymos.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Videos of the vandalized cars went viral, with captions like “Justice for KitKat” and “Revenge for the bodega cat.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So why did this particular incident kick off such a firestorm? To unpack that, we need to return to the night KitKat was killed. What do we know, and what don’t we know, about what happened? Time to open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX typing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happened to KitKat? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Oscar Palma, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Every time I go to the Roxy, I would always make a point to stop by and then say hi to Kit Kat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Oscar Palma, a reporter at Mission Local, a news site that covers San Francisco. He was one of the first journalists to break the news of KitKat’s death. The Roxie is a local theater that shows indie and arthouse films. This area is a bustling social hub — there are bars, restaurants, comedy clubs and KitKat lived in the heart of it, in the corner store right next to the Roxie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People were laughing and saying we call him the boss because he was checking on everyone, making sure that everything was working.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the night of the incident, KitKat was doing what he did best: sauntering up and down the street, greeting bar patrons.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was Monday night. I believe it was 11:40 pm and two witnesses who came up to me and they say, “Hey, we saw everything that happened.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They came out of the bar, and so they saw the Waymo was picking up some passengers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> While the Waymo idled at the curb, KitKat darted under the hood, settling in front of the car’s front tire. A bystander noticed the cat, and rushed over to lure him out. She recounted the night in an interview with the New York Times. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Meg Brigman in TikTok Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I bent down, his ears were back. He looked very stressed. I said, “KitKat, come here, come here.” Being so close to the car, I didn’t expect it to drive away.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar said that KitKat stood in front of the tire for about seven seconds, before he got spooked and retreated further under the car. The Waymo didn’t appear to sense KitKat, or the person crouched in front of the car. Instead, as surveillance footage obtained by the New York Times shows, the Waymo pulled forward. Here’s Oscar again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so he ran over, um, half of his body. And so Kit Kat, um, made it on its own back to the sidewalk. But, um, our witnesses saw everything and they describe a very awful sight to see. Uh, pretty much seeing the last moment of KitKat being alive, and they say that the Waymo never really stopped.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat dragged himself to the sidewalk, but was gravely injured and spitting blood. A bartender called KitKat’s owner and rushed the cat to a nearby animal hospital, where he died.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar said that Mission Local requested a copy of Waymo’s footage from the accident, but the company didn’t respond. Here’s Joe Eskenazi, managing editor at Mission Local. He joined us for the conversation with Oscar.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So clearly, you know, the witnesses told Oscar that the cat had been idling in front of the car for seven seconds. Waymo simply said, the cat darted underneath the car. Both of those things can be true, but by omitting the first part, you’re not telling the full story. So, you know, presumably it’s all on film.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo touts its safety record as significantly better than human drivers. The company reported that throughout June 2025, Waymos had 80% fewer injury-causing crashes. But autonomous vehicles aren’t able to replicate human thinking and reasoning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For their story, Mission Local spoke with several experts on autonomous vehicles.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s the problem, is that human beings have what’s known as object permanence. When you hide your face from a baby, you know the baby is surprised to see that you can take your \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">fa\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hand away and, and your face is still there. But you know, children who are even very young understand that your face doesn’t disappear. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo cars don’t know that. Waymo cars don’t have the computational power, as amazing as they are, to know that the cat that, uh, was in front of the car for seven seconds and then walked under the car where there are not sensors is still a factor. You can’t really have the sensors on the bottom of the car because they get dirtied up so quickly. If you’ve ever touched the tires on your car, they’re really dirty, so they get dirtied up so quickly that you can’t really have sensors there. So, you know, these cars are susceptible to small objects like this being underneath the car.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happened to KitKat is not a one-off incident. Earlier this month, just weeks after a Waymo killed KitKat, another Waymo ran over an unleashed dog in San Francisco, about ten minutes from where KitKat was struck and killed. The dog’s owners decided to put him down due to severe pelvic injuries. Waymo reportedly offered to assist with the dog’s medical expenses, and offered to cover the cost of adopting a new pet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People can say that human beings don’t drive as well as these vehicles. But we can also say that we’re seeing a pattern here of the autonomous vehicles being susceptible to small objects underneath them or even large objects underneath them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A similar incident happened with Cruise just a few years ago. If this is your first time hearing about Cruise, it’s probably because the company shut down last year.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cruise was the robotaxi service owned by General Motors. They were actually the first company to receive California’s Driverless Deployment Permit, in 2022. They had a modest fleet, a couple hundred cars in San Francisco, and planned to expand to other cities. They were actually bigger than Waymo back then. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Until, in 2023, when one of Cruise’s driverless cars hit a pedestrian. Instead of stopping, the car ran her over and continued driving, dragging her for about 20 feet until it finally stopped at a curb , still on top of the pedestrian. She was critically injured in the crash. The California DMV revoked Cruise’s license and ordered the company to suspend operations in the state. That was in late 2023 and Waymo opened to the public in California in 2024. But KitKat’s death rehashes the same concerns that people had over Cruise. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These incidents are, you know, kind of like, uh, a broad daylight shooting in a suburban neighborhood. It’s something that is unusual. We have seen that the cars are not infallible and what’s worse there, there are holes in the technology. Not knowing there’s a person, or in this case, a small animal under your car, strikes me as something that you could improve on. It strikes me as a safety hazard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Waymo’s been facing a bit of a PR crisis over KitKat’s death. It doesn’t help that on the same day of the accident, just hours before KitKat was fatally struck by a Waymo, the company’s co-CEO Tekedra Mawakana appeared on TechCrunch’s Disrupt stage. This exchange went viral: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from TechCrunch’s Disrupt stage]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kirsten Korosec: Will society accept a death potentially caused by a robot? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Takedra Mawakana: I think that society will, I think the challenge for us is making sure that society has a high enough bar on safety that companies are held to. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, after those comments, the company faced immense backlash when news of KitKat’s death broke. Waymo made a statement four days after KitKat died. They apologized and said they’d make a donation to a local animal rights organization in KitKat’s honor. But skepticism about the safety risks of autonomous technology has only continued to build. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So those are all things to be concerned about, regardless of how many cats are struck by human drivers every day. And regardless of how safe Waymo is, by and large. Uh, frankly, I have to tell you, I’ve been more than a little disappointed by the simplistic whataboutism of people who simply wanna shrug their shoulders and say ‘They’re safer than humans. What do you want?’ I think that it could do better. I think that both the corporation and the vehicles could do better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it turns out a lot of other people feel the same way.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What sparks anger and movements is not always what you think it is. In this case, yes, a cat was run over, which happens all the time, every day. But you know, this strikes me as being, uh, a tipping point type situation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This backlash is coming at a time when Waymo is really expanding. In parts of the Bay Area and Southern California, they’re even allowed on freeways. Last month, amid the KitKat backlash, Waymo launched in Miami, with plans to roll out its cars in ten more cities over the next year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s clear there’s a lot of buzz around Waymos. But the critics are gaining some steam, thanks to the tragedy that befell KitKat. And that brings us back to the rally, in front of Randa’s Market, a week after KitKat was killed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Crowd Chanting “KitKat, KitKat, KitKat”]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how are organizers, advocates, and politicians using the momentum from this incident to push back against the ever-expanding reach of self-driving car companies?\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a new tab … but first, a quick break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok we’re back. Let’s open a new tab.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX keyboard sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat the tech martyr\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">About a week after KitKat’s death, San Francisco Supervisor Jackie Fielder hosted the memorial rally for KitKat, in front of the corner store he’d called home for years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Memorial Rally for KitKat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Supervisor Jackie Fielder: Local communities deserve a say over our streets and over the technologies that affect us. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Supervisor Fielder was one of several speakers at the makeshift podium. An officer from the local Teamsters chapter raised concerns about autonomous vehicles taking human jobs. A public transit advocate questioned why the city was investing so heavily in robotaxis, while San Francisco’s trains and buses face a huge funding deficit. And a few spoke out about the safety issues. They came from different backgrounds, but shared the same point: why didn’t their community get a say in allowing Waymos?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s how Justin Dole, a bar owner and president of the organization Small Business Forward, put it when it was his turn to speak at the rally: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Memorial Rally for KitKat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003ci>Justin Dole: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that’s why people have been so profoundly disturbed by KitKat’s death. The mayor of this space, as he was known, was taken from us by a technology that none of us asked for and crucially, to the point of this resolution, none of us consented to. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And that’s at the heart of a new legislative push from Supervisor Fielder. KQED reporter Sydney Johnson, who we heard from at the top of the episode, has been reporting on the rideshare industry here in California. She actually lives in the Mission — KitKat’s home turf. Sydney’s going to walk us through this legislative battle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There have been no shortage of, you know, efforts in Sacramento to try and carve out laws around robotaxis, which is this really relatively new technology and, and area of law also. And a lot of those have faced, you know, lobbying and have just had a pretty difficult time getting through the legislature.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the rally, our local supervisor, Jackie Fielder, along with other community and labor leaders were calling on state lawmakers to revisit legislation that was actually proposed last year, but failed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sydney’s talking about SB-915, a California senate bill that would have allowed local cities to vote on whether to allow robotaxis on their streets. Supporters said that it gives residents more agency. Critics of the bill said that it would make rides between different towns or municipalities an absolute nightmare.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the biggest, uh, points of opposition to that piece of legislation was that it would create this, you know, really messy patchwork of different policies where maybe you have a robo taxi that can get you around one tiny city, but you can’t actually get to your destination, which is two towns over because this city in the middle voted against it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So that ultimately failed. It did not get the support it needed to pass. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">H\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">owever, there was still a lot of interest in finding a way to still provide some, you know, democratic framework for this technology, which currently for robotaxi companies, they only need to receive permits from the state level in order to operate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they’ve received that for multiple cities and California and a few other places around the country. But these lawmakers who were supporting, uh, this law last year and, and now Jackie Fielder who’s asking lawmakers to revisit it, wanna see the effort not completely die since it didn’t work around city to city regulation, but are hoping to kind of broaden that a little bit at looking at the county level. So having the county of San Francisco or the county of Alameda, you know, these various kind of larger jurisdictions, voters there can decide whether robo taxis can operate on their streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As a city supervisor, Jackie Fielder can’t introduce state legislation herself, but she’s still using this moment to shine a spotlight on the issue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung in tape:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you talk about how lawmakers and public transit advocates are using this momentum from this cat’s death to push for new action around Waymo’s and other Robotaxis? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s interesting about this story and about Kit Kat is it seems to have gotten bigger than California, and certainly bigger than San Francisco where this happened. Um. There were stories about KitKat in the Washington Post, in the New York Times. We were seeing stories on CNN about this cat who was killed by a Waymo and just the heartbreak that came as a result of that. And so local lawmakers here in San Francisco really latched onto that. You know, we, we see this with all different types of legislation when there’s a viral moment and a lawmaker might try to attach some sort of policy idea to that moment and, and, you know, kind of ride some of the energy and life that that story has via that virality.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and we certainly saw that here with KitKat and how supervisor Jackie Fielder said, Hey, we need to start talking about this again before things get worse. But, you know, some tragedy has already happened here. And voters, at least who were showing up to this rally, uh, were pretty open about the fact that they wanted to see some sort of either restrictions or at least have the option to vote on whether Waymo’s can operate and, and roam the streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, It still remains to be seen if lawmakers in Sacramento are going to pick this up. Um, but certainly here there’s been some, uh, support bubbling for it. I think that it has really just become a symbol for so many different things. Whether it’s concerns about AI taking jobs or safety, or sustainability with transit. You know, I think a lot of people have been able to impress their message onto KitKat’s death.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These critiques of automated technology have been around for decades. But it’s only recently that they’ve taken a hold in mainstream, public conversation as autonomous vehicles advance and spread across the country. Waymo may be leading the race, but competitors are sprinting to cash in on the robotaxi wars. Uber, Zoox, Nvdia, Tesla, and like, every car manufacturer are all investing in and testing and launching their own versions of a driverless ride service.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joe, the managing editor at Mission Local, says KitKat became a flashpoint for these larger tensions playing out in San Francisco and beyond.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Just on the base level, this, what you’re describing here is a proxy war between the technology companies and the Teamsters unions. And so you can basically see, you know, which politicians are more aligned with the big money tech companies. And Waymo is owned by Google, which, you know, uh, draws a lot of water in this town to use the Big Lebowski line.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, they’re, they are, they are big players, you know, with, with no small amount of lobbying money and no small amount of interest in this state and in this county San Francisco. Is it possible that in the future this legislation could be adopted? I get the sad feeling that something terrible needs to happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s Oscar, the Mission Local reporter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, this is something that I, I, I think about just in my everyday life, um, like a cyclist usually has to die for the city to build the proper infrastructure, um, in a section of the city. And it’s, it’s sad that we have to get to that point to, to see the changes that a lot of us want to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So clearly, KitKat has become a symbol of something bigger — let’s talk about what his death means. How about one last tab? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX keyboard typing] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s legacy \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This month, Randa’s Market welcomed a new bodega cat: Coco, a white six-month-old kitten, with a black nose and ink-tipped ears. She was a gift, from a neighbor to the store’s owner. But KitKat hasn’t been forgotten — if anything, he’s remembered as a folk hero, who represented a version of San Francisco that doesn’t exist anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, talking to people who lived on 16th Street, talking to bartenders around there, you know, people who just feel like their community has been changing, you know, for decades really, but especially in the last few years it’s felt like so much has really accelerated and just seeing this clash of this hyper new technology. These like, you know, sleek driverless cars, quite literally crush a bodega cat is just such a stark image of seeing, you know, this sort of San Francisco that wants to resist all the ways that technology is now quite literally displacing people, animals, you know, a, a city that was once affordable to artists and creatives and teachers and, you know, working class folks.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This whole story really kind of characterized I think some of that disappointment and sadness that people have about having no say or no control over the quote unquote progress that’s happening around them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, knowing that, there’s a real ironic twist to this story. KitKat, the adorable face of resistance to encroaching tech, is now also a meme coin. And yes for the uninitiated, that’s a cryptocurrency thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So now you know there is an altar on 16th Street for KitKat, but he will forever be immortalized on the blockchain as a crypto coin also.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KITKATCOIN launched without the knowledge of KitKat’s actual family, but the store owner’s son has since taken over. He says he donated the first $10,000 of proceeds to an animal rights group. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I believe that it hit its peak on Halloween, which was just a few days after KitKat’s death. Um, but pretty shortly after that the value of this crypto coin just plummeted. Uh, which if you’ve followed these meme coins before is a pretty typical story. But I think with this, you know, it really. Just sort of epitomizes the virality of this story and how it took on a life of its own online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, there’s KitKat the tech martyr and KitKat the meme coin, immortalized on the blockchain. In the Mission, locals just remember KitKat the bodega cat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think people would remember him first as a friend, uh, second as a member of that community. I think KitKat encompassed everything that this, like one block of resistance,in the mission, um, against, um, waves of gentrification. I always think about this block in a very romantic old school San Francisco way. You have this like feeling of like people mourning this loss together and this like very, um, deep connection that everyone had with each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, like I went to report the next night. Uh, and I went to Delirium and people were taking shots for KitKat. You know, like Delirium is right next to the liquor store. if you had been there, you would’ve seen the mood in the bar that night. Everyone was really quiet. Everyone was really sad, and people were taking shots for KitKat left and \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So pour one out for KitKat. We’d usually close all these tabs, but today? Let’s leave his open a little longer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And by the way — Close All Tabs is taking a break for the holidays. We’ll see you in the new year, with brand new deep dives! For now, we’re wrapping up this year — in honor of our friend KitKat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, and edited by Chris Egusa.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva, Chris Hambrick is our editor. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Also, we want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or TikTok at “close all tabs.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "When KitKat, a beloved bodega cat, was killed by a Waymo in San Francisco in late October of this year, the incident quickly went viral. It ignited grief and outrage. It also renewed scrutiny of autonomous vehicles. But in a city where hundreds of animals are hit by vehicles each year, why did this incident — and this particular cat — hit such a nerve? We hear from Oscar Palma, the first reporter on the scene, about what unfolded the night KitKat was killed. Then, Mission Local managing editor Joe Eskenazi and KQED reporter Sydney Johnson explore the limits of autonomous vehicles and why one cat’s death resonated so deeply in a rapidly gentrifying San Francisco.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When KitKat, a beloved bodega cat, was killed by a Waymo in San Francisco in late October of this year, the incident quickly went viral. It ignited grief and outrage. It also renewed scrutiny of autonomous vehicles. But in a city where hundreds of animals are hit by vehicles each year, why did this incident — and this particular cat — hit such a nerve? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We hear from Oscar Palma, the first reporter on the scene, about what unfolded the night KitKat was killed. Then, Mission Local managing editor Joe Eskenazi and KQED reporter Sydney Johnson explore the limits of autonomous vehicles and why one cat’s death resonated so deeply in a rapidly gentrifying San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5106693547\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/sjohnson\">Sydney Johnson\u003c/a>, reporter at KQED \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/author/oscarp/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar Palma\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, reporter at Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/joe-eskenazi/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joe Eskenazi\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, managing editor at Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/2025/10/kitkat-mission-liquor-store-mascot-and-16th-st-ambassador-killed-on-monday/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat, liquor store mascot and ‘16th St. ambassador,’ killed — allegedly by Waymo\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Oscar Palma, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12062777/san-francisco-supervisor-calls-for-robotaxi-reform-after-waymo-kills-neighborhood-cat\">San Francisco Supervisor Calls for Robotaxi Reform After Waymo Kills Neighborhood Cat \u003c/a>\u003ci>— Sydney Johnson, \u003ci>KQED\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/05/us/waymo-kit-kat-san-francisco.html\">How Kit Kat Was Killed: Video Shows What a Waymo Couldn’t See \u003c/a>— Heather Knight, \u003ci>The New York Times \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/12/30/1222083720/driverless-cars-gm-cruise-waymo-san-francisco-accidents\">Driverless car startup Cruise’s no good, terrible year\u003c/a> — Dara Kerr, \u003ci>NPR\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2024/11/14/cruise-fine-investigation-dragging-robotaxi/\">Cruise admits lying to feds about dragging woman in San Francisco\u003c/a> — Kevin Truong, \u003ci>The San Francisco Standard\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/2025/12/waymo-confirms-its-car-hit-dog-in-western-addition/\">Waymo hits dog in S.F. weeks after killing Mission bodega cat\u003c/a> — Kelly Waldron, \u003ci>Mission Local\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kron4.com/news/technology-ai/dog-hit-by-waymo-in-sf-put-down-by-family-after-suffering-severe-pelvic-trauma/\">Dog hit by Waymo in SF put down by family after suffering ‘severe pelvic trauma’\u003c/a> — Alex Baker, \u003ci>KRON4\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/business/2025/11/24/the-self-driving-taxi-revolution-begins-at-last\">The self-driving taxi revolution begins at last\u003c/a> — \u003ci>The Economist \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Crowd Chanting “KitKat! KitKat!” ]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last month, KQED reporter Sydney Johnson covered an event in her neighborhood, that was part memorial service, part rally, in San Francisco’s Mission District. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dozens of residents gathered in front of Randa’s Market to remember KitKat, the store’s beloved 9-year-old tabby cat. KitKat was more than a bodega cat — he was known as the Mayor of 16th street. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There were dozens of people there, you know, chitchatting. uh, many of them lived in the neighborhood and were giving each other hugs and, you know, talking about memories that they had of walking by the market after a late night and petting KitKat or, you know, maybe on their way to work and, and giving him a little scratch, uh, when they popped in for a drink in the morning.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s death was particularly devastating for the neighborhood, because it wasn’t old age, or sickness, or even human cruelty that killed him. It was a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s the autonomous rideshare service, also known as a robotaxi.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’d say the vibe of this event was, you know, both. Mournful and, and somber. but also really angry and, and focused.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat was struck and killed in late October, and in the days after, locals mourned him by turning the tree in front of Randa’s Market into a makeshift shrine. Someone had attached a framed photo of KitKat to the tree, and others adorned the frame with flowers and a cat-sized crown. The base of the tree was overflowing with candles, bouquets, handwritten messages, and of course, cat treats. People even scattered KitKat’s namesake candy around the shrine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the time the rally happened a week later, grief had become anger. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But our local supervisor, you know, took some of that anger and outrage and. Really just said, this is a moment where we have to think about these technologies that are being deployed all around us \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s San Francisco Supervisor Jackie Fielder at the rally. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Jackie Fielder at Rally]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The future of autonomous vehicles should be decided by people, not tech, oligarchs and their politicians. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience Member: Yes!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jackie Fielder: Thank you all so much and rest in peace, KitKat. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s death sparked nationwide outrage. He’s become the face of resistance to robotaxis, AI, and the tech industry as a whole. In death, he’s become a viral sensation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Australia News]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a new social justice movement in San Francisco, sparked by the death of a beloved neighborhood cat that was killed by a driverless car.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Inside Edition] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now fans of the adored feline are taking to social media demanding hashtag justice for Kit Kat. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Tiktok]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are mourning a true pillar of the community and who they call the mayor of 16th Street,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo, meanwhile, recently announced its expansion across California. The company has plans to deploy its robotaxis in San Diego, Sacramento, and lots in between. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it kind of became, you know, more than just this cat who died. This is actually now something where people who have been, you know, nervous or uneasy about autonomous vehicles, uh, really had a moment where they were saying, Hey, let’s actually think about how we can avoid this kind of tragedy, uh, especially if it could get even worse in the future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo says its autonomous vehicles are safer than human drivers — at least, they have a lower crash rate. But these cars aren’t infallible. KitKat may be the most viral victim of a robotaxi crash, but he’s not the only one. His death has raised some major concerns about safety, especially as Waymo and other robotaxi companies vie to compete with human-driven rideshares. The loss of this little bodega cat might have sparked a movement … but can these giant tech companies really be reined in? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymos, and robotaxis as a whole, have been pretty controversial since they started hitting streets in 2020. While robotaxi supporters praise the convenience and supposed safety of self-driving cars, detractors have real concerns. They threaten jobs, they disrupt traffic, they can’t make the same decisions that a human driver can, which makes them a nuisance at best and at worst, a public safety hazard. Plus, they represent the tech industry’s rapid encroachment on local communities. Like we covered in one of our very first episodes of this show, it’s what makes Waymos so easy to vandalize: they’re a physical, tangible outlet for this collective anxiety and rage against Silicon Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Los Angeles, Dodgers fans celebrated their team’s World Series win by spray painting and smashing Waymos.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Videos of the vandalized cars went viral, with captions like “Justice for KitKat” and “Revenge for the bodega cat.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So why did this particular incident kick off such a firestorm? To unpack that, we need to return to the night KitKat was killed. What do we know, and what don’t we know, about what happened? Time to open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX typing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happened to KitKat? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Oscar Palma, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Every time I go to the Roxy, I would always make a point to stop by and then say hi to Kit Kat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Oscar Palma, a reporter at Mission Local, a news site that covers San Francisco. He was one of the first journalists to break the news of KitKat’s death. The Roxie is a local theater that shows indie and arthouse films. This area is a bustling social hub — there are bars, restaurants, comedy clubs and KitKat lived in the heart of it, in the corner store right next to the Roxie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People were laughing and saying we call him the boss because he was checking on everyone, making sure that everything was working.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the night of the incident, KitKat was doing what he did best: sauntering up and down the street, greeting bar patrons.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was Monday night. I believe it was 11:40 pm and two witnesses who came up to me and they say, “Hey, we saw everything that happened.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They came out of the bar, and so they saw the Waymo was picking up some passengers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> While the Waymo idled at the curb, KitKat darted under the hood, settling in front of the car’s front tire. A bystander noticed the cat, and rushed over to lure him out. She recounted the night in an interview with the New York Times. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Meg Brigman in TikTok Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I bent down, his ears were back. He looked very stressed. I said, “KitKat, come here, come here.” Being so close to the car, I didn’t expect it to drive away.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar said that KitKat stood in front of the tire for about seven seconds, before he got spooked and retreated further under the car. The Waymo didn’t appear to sense KitKat, or the person crouched in front of the car. Instead, as surveillance footage obtained by the New York Times shows, the Waymo pulled forward. Here’s Oscar again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so he ran over, um, half of his body. And so Kit Kat, um, made it on its own back to the sidewalk. But, um, our witnesses saw everything and they describe a very awful sight to see. Uh, pretty much seeing the last moment of KitKat being alive, and they say that the Waymo never really stopped.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat dragged himself to the sidewalk, but was gravely injured and spitting blood. A bartender called KitKat’s owner and rushed the cat to a nearby animal hospital, where he died.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar said that Mission Local requested a copy of Waymo’s footage from the accident, but the company didn’t respond. Here’s Joe Eskenazi, managing editor at Mission Local. He joined us for the conversation with Oscar.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So clearly, you know, the witnesses told Oscar that the cat had been idling in front of the car for seven seconds. Waymo simply said, the cat darted underneath the car. Both of those things can be true, but by omitting the first part, you’re not telling the full story. So, you know, presumably it’s all on film.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo touts its safety record as significantly better than human drivers. The company reported that throughout June 2025, Waymos had 80% fewer injury-causing crashes. But autonomous vehicles aren’t able to replicate human thinking and reasoning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For their story, Mission Local spoke with several experts on autonomous vehicles.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s the problem, is that human beings have what’s known as object permanence. When you hide your face from a baby, you know the baby is surprised to see that you can take your \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">fa\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hand away and, and your face is still there. But you know, children who are even very young understand that your face doesn’t disappear. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo cars don’t know that. Waymo cars don’t have the computational power, as amazing as they are, to know that the cat that, uh, was in front of the car for seven seconds and then walked under the car where there are not sensors is still a factor. You can’t really have the sensors on the bottom of the car because they get dirtied up so quickly. If you’ve ever touched the tires on your car, they’re really dirty, so they get dirtied up so quickly that you can’t really have sensors there. So, you know, these cars are susceptible to small objects like this being underneath the car.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happened to KitKat is not a one-off incident. Earlier this month, just weeks after a Waymo killed KitKat, another Waymo ran over an unleashed dog in San Francisco, about ten minutes from where KitKat was struck and killed. The dog’s owners decided to put him down due to severe pelvic injuries. Waymo reportedly offered to assist with the dog’s medical expenses, and offered to cover the cost of adopting a new pet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People can say that human beings don’t drive as well as these vehicles. But we can also say that we’re seeing a pattern here of the autonomous vehicles being susceptible to small objects underneath them or even large objects underneath them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A similar incident happened with Cruise just a few years ago. If this is your first time hearing about Cruise, it’s probably because the company shut down last year.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cruise was the robotaxi service owned by General Motors. They were actually the first company to receive California’s Driverless Deployment Permit, in 2022. They had a modest fleet, a couple hundred cars in San Francisco, and planned to expand to other cities. They were actually bigger than Waymo back then. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Until, in 2023, when one of Cruise’s driverless cars hit a pedestrian. Instead of stopping, the car ran her over and continued driving, dragging her for about 20 feet until it finally stopped at a curb , still on top of the pedestrian. She was critically injured in the crash. The California DMV revoked Cruise’s license and ordered the company to suspend operations in the state. That was in late 2023 and Waymo opened to the public in California in 2024. But KitKat’s death rehashes the same concerns that people had over Cruise. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These incidents are, you know, kind of like, uh, a broad daylight shooting in a suburban neighborhood. It’s something that is unusual. We have seen that the cars are not infallible and what’s worse there, there are holes in the technology. Not knowing there’s a person, or in this case, a small animal under your car, strikes me as something that you could improve on. It strikes me as a safety hazard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Waymo’s been facing a bit of a PR crisis over KitKat’s death. It doesn’t help that on the same day of the accident, just hours before KitKat was fatally struck by a Waymo, the company’s co-CEO Tekedra Mawakana appeared on TechCrunch’s Disrupt stage. This exchange went viral: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from TechCrunch’s Disrupt stage]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kirsten Korosec: Will society accept a death potentially caused by a robot? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Takedra Mawakana: I think that society will, I think the challenge for us is making sure that society has a high enough bar on safety that companies are held to. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, after those comments, the company faced immense backlash when news of KitKat’s death broke. Waymo made a statement four days after KitKat died. They apologized and said they’d make a donation to a local animal rights organization in KitKat’s honor. But skepticism about the safety risks of autonomous technology has only continued to build. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So those are all things to be concerned about, regardless of how many cats are struck by human drivers every day. And regardless of how safe Waymo is, by and large. Uh, frankly, I have to tell you, I’ve been more than a little disappointed by the simplistic whataboutism of people who simply wanna shrug their shoulders and say ‘They’re safer than humans. What do you want?’ I think that it could do better. I think that both the corporation and the vehicles could do better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it turns out a lot of other people feel the same way.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What sparks anger and movements is not always what you think it is. In this case, yes, a cat was run over, which happens all the time, every day. But you know, this strikes me as being, uh, a tipping point type situation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This backlash is coming at a time when Waymo is really expanding. In parts of the Bay Area and Southern California, they’re even allowed on freeways. Last month, amid the KitKat backlash, Waymo launched in Miami, with plans to roll out its cars in ten more cities over the next year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s clear there’s a lot of buzz around Waymos. But the critics are gaining some steam, thanks to the tragedy that befell KitKat. And that brings us back to the rally, in front of Randa’s Market, a week after KitKat was killed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Crowd Chanting “KitKat, KitKat, KitKat”]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how are organizers, advocates, and politicians using the momentum from this incident to push back against the ever-expanding reach of self-driving car companies?\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a new tab … but first, a quick break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok we’re back. Let’s open a new tab.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX keyboard sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat the tech martyr\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">About a week after KitKat’s death, San Francisco Supervisor Jackie Fielder hosted the memorial rally for KitKat, in front of the corner store he’d called home for years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Memorial Rally for KitKat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Supervisor Jackie Fielder: Local communities deserve a say over our streets and over the technologies that affect us. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Supervisor Fielder was one of several speakers at the makeshift podium. An officer from the local Teamsters chapter raised concerns about autonomous vehicles taking human jobs. A public transit advocate questioned why the city was investing so heavily in robotaxis, while San Francisco’s trains and buses face a huge funding deficit. And a few spoke out about the safety issues. They came from different backgrounds, but shared the same point: why didn’t their community get a say in allowing Waymos?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s how Justin Dole, a bar owner and president of the organization Small Business Forward, put it when it was his turn to speak at the rally: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Memorial Rally for KitKat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003ci>Justin Dole: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that’s why people have been so profoundly disturbed by KitKat’s death. The mayor of this space, as he was known, was taken from us by a technology that none of us asked for and crucially, to the point of this resolution, none of us consented to. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And that’s at the heart of a new legislative push from Supervisor Fielder. KQED reporter Sydney Johnson, who we heard from at the top of the episode, has been reporting on the rideshare industry here in California. She actually lives in the Mission — KitKat’s home turf. Sydney’s going to walk us through this legislative battle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There have been no shortage of, you know, efforts in Sacramento to try and carve out laws around robotaxis, which is this really relatively new technology and, and area of law also. And a lot of those have faced, you know, lobbying and have just had a pretty difficult time getting through the legislature.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the rally, our local supervisor, Jackie Fielder, along with other community and labor leaders were calling on state lawmakers to revisit legislation that was actually proposed last year, but failed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sydney’s talking about SB-915, a California senate bill that would have allowed local cities to vote on whether to allow robotaxis on their streets. Supporters said that it gives residents more agency. Critics of the bill said that it would make rides between different towns or municipalities an absolute nightmare.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the biggest, uh, points of opposition to that piece of legislation was that it would create this, you know, really messy patchwork of different policies where maybe you have a robo taxi that can get you around one tiny city, but you can’t actually get to your destination, which is two towns over because this city in the middle voted against it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So that ultimately failed. It did not get the support it needed to pass. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">H\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">owever, there was still a lot of interest in finding a way to still provide some, you know, democratic framework for this technology, which currently for robotaxi companies, they only need to receive permits from the state level in order to operate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they’ve received that for multiple cities and California and a few other places around the country. But these lawmakers who were supporting, uh, this law last year and, and now Jackie Fielder who’s asking lawmakers to revisit it, wanna see the effort not completely die since it didn’t work around city to city regulation, but are hoping to kind of broaden that a little bit at looking at the county level. So having the county of San Francisco or the county of Alameda, you know, these various kind of larger jurisdictions, voters there can decide whether robo taxis can operate on their streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As a city supervisor, Jackie Fielder can’t introduce state legislation herself, but she’s still using this moment to shine a spotlight on the issue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung in tape:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you talk about how lawmakers and public transit advocates are using this momentum from this cat’s death to push for new action around Waymo’s and other Robotaxis? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s interesting about this story and about Kit Kat is it seems to have gotten bigger than California, and certainly bigger than San Francisco where this happened. Um. There were stories about KitKat in the Washington Post, in the New York Times. We were seeing stories on CNN about this cat who was killed by a Waymo and just the heartbreak that came as a result of that. And so local lawmakers here in San Francisco really latched onto that. You know, we, we see this with all different types of legislation when there’s a viral moment and a lawmaker might try to attach some sort of policy idea to that moment and, and, you know, kind of ride some of the energy and life that that story has via that virality.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and we certainly saw that here with KitKat and how supervisor Jackie Fielder said, Hey, we need to start talking about this again before things get worse. But, you know, some tragedy has already happened here. And voters, at least who were showing up to this rally, uh, were pretty open about the fact that they wanted to see some sort of either restrictions or at least have the option to vote on whether Waymo’s can operate and, and roam the streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, It still remains to be seen if lawmakers in Sacramento are going to pick this up. Um, but certainly here there’s been some, uh, support bubbling for it. I think that it has really just become a symbol for so many different things. Whether it’s concerns about AI taking jobs or safety, or sustainability with transit. You know, I think a lot of people have been able to impress their message onto KitKat’s death.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These critiques of automated technology have been around for decades. But it’s only recently that they’ve taken a hold in mainstream, public conversation as autonomous vehicles advance and spread across the country. Waymo may be leading the race, but competitors are sprinting to cash in on the robotaxi wars. Uber, Zoox, Nvdia, Tesla, and like, every car manufacturer are all investing in and testing and launching their own versions of a driverless ride service.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joe, the managing editor at Mission Local, says KitKat became a flashpoint for these larger tensions playing out in San Francisco and beyond.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Just on the base level, this, what you’re describing here is a proxy war between the technology companies and the Teamsters unions. And so you can basically see, you know, which politicians are more aligned with the big money tech companies. And Waymo is owned by Google, which, you know, uh, draws a lot of water in this town to use the Big Lebowski line.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, they’re, they are, they are big players, you know, with, with no small amount of lobbying money and no small amount of interest in this state and in this county San Francisco. Is it possible that in the future this legislation could be adopted? I get the sad feeling that something terrible needs to happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s Oscar, the Mission Local reporter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, this is something that I, I, I think about just in my everyday life, um, like a cyclist usually has to die for the city to build the proper infrastructure, um, in a section of the city. And it’s, it’s sad that we have to get to that point to, to see the changes that a lot of us want to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So clearly, KitKat has become a symbol of something bigger — let’s talk about what his death means. How about one last tab? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX keyboard typing] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s legacy \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This month, Randa’s Market welcomed a new bodega cat: Coco, a white six-month-old kitten, with a black nose and ink-tipped ears. She was a gift, from a neighbor to the store’s owner. But KitKat hasn’t been forgotten — if anything, he’s remembered as a folk hero, who represented a version of San Francisco that doesn’t exist anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, talking to people who lived on 16th Street, talking to bartenders around there, you know, people who just feel like their community has been changing, you know, for decades really, but especially in the last few years it’s felt like so much has really accelerated and just seeing this clash of this hyper new technology. These like, you know, sleek driverless cars, quite literally crush a bodega cat is just such a stark image of seeing, you know, this sort of San Francisco that wants to resist all the ways that technology is now quite literally displacing people, animals, you know, a, a city that was once affordable to artists and creatives and teachers and, you know, working class folks.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This whole story really kind of characterized I think some of that disappointment and sadness that people have about having no say or no control over the quote unquote progress that’s happening around them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, knowing that, there’s a real ironic twist to this story. KitKat, the adorable face of resistance to encroaching tech, is now also a meme coin. And yes for the uninitiated, that’s a cryptocurrency thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So now you know there is an altar on 16th Street for KitKat, but he will forever be immortalized on the blockchain as a crypto coin also.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KITKATCOIN launched without the knowledge of KitKat’s actual family, but the store owner’s son has since taken over. He says he donated the first $10,000 of proceeds to an animal rights group. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I believe that it hit its peak on Halloween, which was just a few days after KitKat’s death. Um, but pretty shortly after that the value of this crypto coin just plummeted. Uh, which if you’ve followed these meme coins before is a pretty typical story. But I think with this, you know, it really. Just sort of epitomizes the virality of this story and how it took on a life of its own online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, there’s KitKat the tech martyr and KitKat the meme coin, immortalized on the blockchain. In the Mission, locals just remember KitKat the bodega cat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think people would remember him first as a friend, uh, second as a member of that community. I think KitKat encompassed everything that this, like one block of resistance,in the mission, um, against, um, waves of gentrification. I always think about this block in a very romantic old school San Francisco way. You have this like feeling of like people mourning this loss together and this like very, um, deep connection that everyone had with each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, like I went to report the next night. Uh, and I went to Delirium and people were taking shots for KitKat. You know, like Delirium is right next to the liquor store. if you had been there, you would’ve seen the mood in the bar that night. Everyone was really quiet. Everyone was really sad, and people were taking shots for KitKat left and \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So pour one out for KitKat. We’d usually close all these tabs, but today? Let’s leave his open a little longer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And by the way — Close All Tabs is taking a break for the holidays. We’ll see you in the new year, with brand new deep dives! For now, we’re wrapping up this year — in honor of our friend KitKat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, and edited by Chris Egusa.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva, Chris Hambrick is our editor. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Also, we want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or TikTok at “close all tabs.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Oakland’s License Plate Camera Contract Is Back Up for a Vote. Critics Are Crying Foul",
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"content": "\u003cp>Oakland’s City Council will vote next week on a controversial \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12005347/the-east-bay-has-hundreds-of-new-surveillance-cameras-and-more-are-on-the-way\">surveillance technology contract\u003c/a>, just weeks after it failed to advance out of committee amid concerns over the company’s data-sharing practices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Oakland Police Department’s proposal to extend the contract with Flock Safety, which operates nearly 300 automatic license plate reader cameras across the city, did not pass a vote in the council’s Public Safety Committee last month. But this week, it was brought back before the Rules Committee, which moved it forward on Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m deeply concerned that this process feels like it lacks transparency and democracy,” Councilmember Carroll Fife said. “This item failed in committee and should go back to committee and be deliberated in that space.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Lance Wilson, policy and communications director at the Anti Police-Terror Project, the contract was only added to the Rules Committee meeting agenda on Wednesday afternoon, “with less than 24 hours’ notice to the public.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He called the committee’s decision to revive a contract vote by the council “stunning and undemocratic,” saying more than 4,000 Oakland residents have urged the council to vote no on Flock expansion, and more than 40 organizations, including the ACLU of Northern California and multiple local unions, submitted a joint letter warning that approving the contract would hurt immigrants, communities of color and unhoused residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fife and many residents had spoken out against granting a new two-year contract to the Atlanta-based company. The city’s volunteer Privacy Advisory Commission also refused to endorse OPD’s contract plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Privacy advocates have long had \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12064587/civil-liberties-groups-sue-san-jose-over-license-plate-reader-use\">concerns about the amount of data\u003c/a> stored, collected and shared by Flock, but its technology has come under increased scrutiny in recent months after reports revealed that its searchable license plate database has been used to aid federal investigations, including by the Department of Homeland Security and Immigration and Customs Enforcement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State law prohibits local law enforcement from sharing automated license plate data with out-of-state and federal agencies, and Oakland’s sanctuary city policy bars police and city officials from aiding in immigration enforcement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the summer, the \u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2025/07/14/oakland-san-francisco-ice-license-plate-readers/\">\u003cem>San Francisco Standard\u003c/em>\u003c/a> reported that OPD’s data was accessed on behalf of federal agencies, and just last month, Richmond shut down its network of cameras after discovering that the data they captured was searchable by federal agencies, despite believing it was for internal use only.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In November, the nonprofit Secure Justice and its leader, Brian Hofer, sued Oakland over the reports of data sharing. The suit alleges that the department’s data was made accessible to at least six federal agencies and a number of non-California state and local agencies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A month prior, Attorney General Rob Bonta \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-sues-el-cajon-illegally-sharing-license-plate-data-out\">sued the city of El Cajon\u003c/a> in San Diego County over similar Flock data sharing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11984097\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11984097\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A man with a fluorescent yellow coat holds a black machine.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Flock Safety worker holds up a new automated license plate reader that was being installed in East San José on Tuesday, April 23, 2024. \u003ccite>(Joseph Geha/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As part of Flock’s services, it offers contracted agencies multiple data sharing options: a “National Lookup,” which allows two-way access to data between all Flock Safety customers who have opted in; a “State Lookup,” which creates a similar arrangement with other Flock customers only in their home state; and a 1:1 sharing option, which requires customers to add agencies they would like to share data with individually.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oakland has previously said that its license-plate reader data would not be made accessible outside OPD due to privacy concerns, but city documents show that the data was made accessible and shared with at least six federal and a number of non-California state and local agencies, according to Hofer’s lawsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city has been using a network of 290 Flock cameras along highways and high-traffic areas to aid in police investigations since March 2024. Around the same time, departments across the Bay Area \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11989977/san-franciscos-new-license-plate-readers-are-leading-to-arrests-and-concerns-about-privacy\">entered similar contracts\u003c/a> with Flock as part of a push to crack down on crime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12064587 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/image-9.png']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last month, OPD proposed a two-year, $2.25 million contract for Flock to maintain the existing camera network and allow police to access private cameras in the company’s system when the current contract ends in February.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The four-member Public Safety Committee deadlocked, with Councilmembers Charlene Wang and Ken Houston voting in favor and Councilmembers Rowena Brown and Fife voting against it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the meeting, Fife said she feared the data “falling into the hands of bad actors that have a track record” of working with agencies involved in immigration enforcement. She suggested that the department consider other vendors who could provide similar technology to use instead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the proposal was brought back to the Rules Committee this week, Councilmembers Kevin Jenkins and Janani Ramachandran, along with Brown, voted in favor of agendizing the contract vote, while Fife lodged the sole vote against.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I believe that we can use cameras for public safety tools, but this vendor has shown time and time again that they will just thwart the rule of law in cities and states all over the nation,” Fife said Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In public comment during Thursday’s meeting, Councilmember Houston voiced support for the plan, and representatives from Councilmember Zac Unger and Wang’s office also supported moving the vote forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s slated for a vote at the full council on Tuesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Oakland’s City Council will vote next week on a controversial \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12005347/the-east-bay-has-hundreds-of-new-surveillance-cameras-and-more-are-on-the-way\">surveillance technology contract\u003c/a>, just weeks after it failed to advance out of committee amid concerns over the company’s data-sharing practices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Oakland Police Department’s proposal to extend the contract with Flock Safety, which operates nearly 300 automatic license plate reader cameras across the city, did not pass a vote in the council’s Public Safety Committee last month. But this week, it was brought back before the Rules Committee, which moved it forward on Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m deeply concerned that this process feels like it lacks transparency and democracy,” Councilmember Carroll Fife said. “This item failed in committee and should go back to committee and be deliberated in that space.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Lance Wilson, policy and communications director at the Anti Police-Terror Project, the contract was only added to the Rules Committee meeting agenda on Wednesday afternoon, “with less than 24 hours’ notice to the public.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He called the committee’s decision to revive a contract vote by the council “stunning and undemocratic,” saying more than 4,000 Oakland residents have urged the council to vote no on Flock expansion, and more than 40 organizations, including the ACLU of Northern California and multiple local unions, submitted a joint letter warning that approving the contract would hurt immigrants, communities of color and unhoused residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fife and many residents had spoken out against granting a new two-year contract to the Atlanta-based company. The city’s volunteer Privacy Advisory Commission also refused to endorse OPD’s contract plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Privacy advocates have long had \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12064587/civil-liberties-groups-sue-san-jose-over-license-plate-reader-use\">concerns about the amount of data\u003c/a> stored, collected and shared by Flock, but its technology has come under increased scrutiny in recent months after reports revealed that its searchable license plate database has been used to aid federal investigations, including by the Department of Homeland Security and Immigration and Customs Enforcement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State law prohibits local law enforcement from sharing automated license plate data with out-of-state and federal agencies, and Oakland’s sanctuary city policy bars police and city officials from aiding in immigration enforcement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the summer, the \u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2025/07/14/oakland-san-francisco-ice-license-plate-readers/\">\u003cem>San Francisco Standard\u003c/em>\u003c/a> reported that OPD’s data was accessed on behalf of federal agencies, and just last month, Richmond shut down its network of cameras after discovering that the data they captured was searchable by federal agencies, despite believing it was for internal use only.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In November, the nonprofit Secure Justice and its leader, Brian Hofer, sued Oakland over the reports of data sharing. The suit alleges that the department’s data was made accessible to at least six federal agencies and a number of non-California state and local agencies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A month prior, Attorney General Rob Bonta \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-sues-el-cajon-illegally-sharing-license-plate-data-out\">sued the city of El Cajon\u003c/a> in San Diego County over similar Flock data sharing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11984097\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11984097\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A man with a fluorescent yellow coat holds a black machine.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Flock Safety worker holds up a new automated license plate reader that was being installed in East San José on Tuesday, April 23, 2024. \u003ccite>(Joseph Geha/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As part of Flock’s services, it offers contracted agencies multiple data sharing options: a “National Lookup,” which allows two-way access to data between all Flock Safety customers who have opted in; a “State Lookup,” which creates a similar arrangement with other Flock customers only in their home state; and a 1:1 sharing option, which requires customers to add agencies they would like to share data with individually.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oakland has previously said that its license-plate reader data would not be made accessible outside OPD due to privacy concerns, but city documents show that the data was made accessible and shared with at least six federal and a number of non-California state and local agencies, according to Hofer’s lawsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city has been using a network of 290 Flock cameras along highways and high-traffic areas to aid in police investigations since March 2024. Around the same time, departments across the Bay Area \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11989977/san-franciscos-new-license-plate-readers-are-leading-to-arrests-and-concerns-about-privacy\">entered similar contracts\u003c/a> with Flock as part of a push to crack down on crime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last month, OPD proposed a two-year, $2.25 million contract for Flock to maintain the existing camera network and allow police to access private cameras in the company’s system when the current contract ends in February.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The four-member Public Safety Committee deadlocked, with Councilmembers Charlene Wang and Ken Houston voting in favor and Councilmembers Rowena Brown and Fife voting against it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the meeting, Fife said she feared the data “falling into the hands of bad actors that have a track record” of working with agencies involved in immigration enforcement. She suggested that the department consider other vendors who could provide similar technology to use instead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the proposal was brought back to the Rules Committee this week, Councilmembers Kevin Jenkins and Janani Ramachandran, along with Brown, voted in favor of agendizing the contract vote, while Fife lodged the sole vote against.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I believe that we can use cameras for public safety tools, but this vendor has shown time and time again that they will just thwart the rule of law in cities and states all over the nation,” Fife said Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In public comment during Thursday’s meeting, Councilmember Houston voiced support for the plan, and representatives from Councilmember Zac Unger and Wang’s office also supported moving the vote forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s slated for a vote at the full council on Tuesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Trump’s AI Order Provokes Pushback from California Officials and Consumer Advocates",
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"content": "\u003cp>In the last decade, California has passed 42 laws to regulate artificial intelligence, more than any other state, according to \u003ca href=\"https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2025-ai-index-report\">Stanford’s Institute for Human-Centered AI\u003c/a>. So it comes as no surprise that state leaders reacted with ire to President Donald Trump’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/12/eliminating-state-law-obstruction-of-national-artificial-intelligence-policy/\">executive order\u003c/a> slapping down state efforts to regulate AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The clash highlights the growing friction between California’s push for consumer protections and the tech industry’s efforts to neutralize regulation. The executive order follows \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/the-silicon-valley-campaign-to-win-trump-over-on-ai-regulation-214bd6bd\">previous failures\u003c/a> led by Silicon Valley venture capitalist David Sacks, now the president’s AI and crypto advisor, to pass a moratorium on state AI regulation through Congress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“President Trump and Davis Sacks aren’t making policy — they’re running a con. And every day, they push the limits to see how far they can take it,” Gov. Gavin Newsom wrote in a statement on Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As an earlier draft of the order circulated in Washington, critics warned it would neuter state laws designed to protect children and adults from the more predatory forms of commercial AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trump’s executive order echoed talking points articulated by Silicon Valley leaders, including calls for a uniform federal regulatory framework, and concerns that state regulations could slow the pace of AI innovation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“POTUS stepping in creates space for builders to focus on innovation while Congress finishes the job,”\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/Collin_McCune/status/1999264399459066212?s=20\"> wrote\u003c/a> Collin McCune, who leads government affairs for the Menlo Park-based venture capital firm Andreessen Horowitz, which is among the companies that have spent tens of millions of dollars to block or weaken Congressional action. “Now lawmakers have to act. Our standing in the global AI race—and the direct benefits Americans will see from it—depend on it,” he added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://twitter.com/RapidResponse47/status/1999257391356125348\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The industry push to get the White House to supersede state legislation is “shortsighted,” said State Sen. Josh Becker, D-Menlo Park, who has worked to pass several of California’s state bills governing AI. “I think they’re going to pay the price in the long run.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But just how big of an effect the order will have on California’s AI regulations is unclear. It includes exemptions for laws that cover child safety, data center infrastructure, state government use of AI and “other topics as shall be determined.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is going to sow massive confusion in the industry,” Becker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Becker is wondering about the future of several AI bills he co-authored, including one regulating AI companion chatbots, due to go into effect in January, which Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/10/13/governor-newsom-signs-bills-to-further-strengthen-californias-leadership-in-protecting-children-online/\">signed\u003c/a> into law as part of a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">broader package\u003c/a> of online safety and emerging-tech protections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Is that affected by this? Because there’s a big part of it that deals with kids and chatbots, but there were parts of the bill that dealt with other things,” Becker said.[aside postID=forum_2010101912169 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2025/11/GettyImages-2203864303-2000x1333.jpg']The executive order is widely expected to prompt legal challenges because only Congress has the authority to override state laws. Speaking in Sacramento on Friday, California Attorney General Rob Bonta said it was too early to determine any legal action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Where it’s headed, and what it intends to do, raises great concerns and flags. But we don’t sue until there’s action that we can take. Sometimes that’s upon the issuance of the executive order. Sometimes it’s later,” said Bonta, whose office has sued the Trump administration 49 times this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bonta’s measured stance contrasts with state lawmakers who see imminent danger in this latest move from the White House.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“President Trump’s executive order is a dangerous attack on states’ constitutional authority to protect our residents from urgent AI harms,” wrote Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, who has authored multiple AI bills regulating everything from algorithmic discrimination and transparency to protections for children and Hollywood creatives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“While the tech industry lobbies for deregulation, women are being victimized by AI-powered nudification apps, artists and creators are having their livelihoods cannibalized without notice, deepfakes are being weaponized for harassment and fraud, and AI systems are perpetuating discrimination in housing, employment, and lending. These aren’t theoretical risks— they’re happening now and demand action,” Bauer-Kahan wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California is not alone in its efforts to regulate AI at the state level. This year, all 50 states and territories introduced AI legislation and 38 states adopted about 100 laws, according to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ncsl.org/state-legislatures-news/details/as-ai-tools-become-commonplace-so-do-concerns\">National Conference of State Legislatures\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This executive order is an outrageous betrayal of the states that, as Congress has stalled, have worked tirelessly to protect their residents from the very real risks of AI,” wrote James Steyer, head of Common Sense Media. The advocacy group has sponsored state bills in California and elsewhere. “Stripping states of their constitutional rights to protect their residents from unsafe AI — while holding critical broadband funding hostage, no less — erases the progress they are making and puts lives in danger,” Steyer wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>In the last decade, California has passed 42 laws to regulate artificial intelligence, more than any other state, according to \u003ca href=\"https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2025-ai-index-report\">Stanford’s Institute for Human-Centered AI\u003c/a>. So it comes as no surprise that state leaders reacted with ire to President Donald Trump’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/12/eliminating-state-law-obstruction-of-national-artificial-intelligence-policy/\">executive order\u003c/a> slapping down state efforts to regulate AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The clash highlights the growing friction between California’s push for consumer protections and the tech industry’s efforts to neutralize regulation. The executive order follows \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/the-silicon-valley-campaign-to-win-trump-over-on-ai-regulation-214bd6bd\">previous failures\u003c/a> led by Silicon Valley venture capitalist David Sacks, now the president’s AI and crypto advisor, to pass a moratorium on state AI regulation through Congress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“President Trump and Davis Sacks aren’t making policy — they’re running a con. And every day, they push the limits to see how far they can take it,” Gov. Gavin Newsom wrote in a statement on Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As an earlier draft of the order circulated in Washington, critics warned it would neuter state laws designed to protect children and adults from the more predatory forms of commercial AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trump’s executive order echoed talking points articulated by Silicon Valley leaders, including calls for a uniform federal regulatory framework, and concerns that state regulations could slow the pace of AI innovation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“POTUS stepping in creates space for builders to focus on innovation while Congress finishes the job,”\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/Collin_McCune/status/1999264399459066212?s=20\"> wrote\u003c/a> Collin McCune, who leads government affairs for the Menlo Park-based venture capital firm Andreessen Horowitz, which is among the companies that have spent tens of millions of dollars to block or weaken Congressional action. “Now lawmakers have to act. Our standing in the global AI race—and the direct benefits Americans will see from it—depend on it,” he added.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>The industry push to get the White House to supersede state legislation is “shortsighted,” said State Sen. Josh Becker, D-Menlo Park, who has worked to pass several of California’s state bills governing AI. “I think they’re going to pay the price in the long run.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But just how big of an effect the order will have on California’s AI regulations is unclear. It includes exemptions for laws that cover child safety, data center infrastructure, state government use of AI and “other topics as shall be determined.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is going to sow massive confusion in the industry,” Becker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Becker is wondering about the future of several AI bills he co-authored, including one regulating AI companion chatbots, due to go into effect in January, which Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/10/13/governor-newsom-signs-bills-to-further-strengthen-californias-leadership-in-protecting-children-online/\">signed\u003c/a> into law as part of a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">broader package\u003c/a> of online safety and emerging-tech protections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Is that affected by this? Because there’s a big part of it that deals with kids and chatbots, but there were parts of the bill that dealt with other things,” Becker said.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>The executive order is widely expected to prompt legal challenges because only Congress has the authority to override state laws. Speaking in Sacramento on Friday, California Attorney General Rob Bonta said it was too early to determine any legal action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Where it’s headed, and what it intends to do, raises great concerns and flags. But we don’t sue until there’s action that we can take. Sometimes that’s upon the issuance of the executive order. Sometimes it’s later,” said Bonta, whose office has sued the Trump administration 49 times this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bonta’s measured stance contrasts with state lawmakers who see imminent danger in this latest move from the White House.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“President Trump’s executive order is a dangerous attack on states’ constitutional authority to protect our residents from urgent AI harms,” wrote Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, who has authored multiple AI bills regulating everything from algorithmic discrimination and transparency to protections for children and Hollywood creatives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“While the tech industry lobbies for deregulation, women are being victimized by AI-powered nudification apps, artists and creators are having their livelihoods cannibalized without notice, deepfakes are being weaponized for harassment and fraud, and AI systems are perpetuating discrimination in housing, employment, and lending. These aren’t theoretical risks— they’re happening now and demand action,” Bauer-Kahan wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California is not alone in its efforts to regulate AI at the state level. This year, all 50 states and territories introduced AI legislation and 38 states adopted about 100 laws, according to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ncsl.org/state-legislatures-news/details/as-ai-tools-become-commonplace-so-do-concerns\">National Conference of State Legislatures\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This executive order is an outrageous betrayal of the states that, as Congress has stalled, have worked tirelessly to protect their residents from the very real risks of AI,” wrote James Steyer, head of Common Sense Media. The advocacy group has sponsored state bills in California and elsewhere. “Stripping states of their constitutional rights to protect their residents from unsafe AI — while holding critical broadband funding hostage, no less — erases the progress they are making and puts lives in danger,” Steyer wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>A member of a Bay Area group that says they are trying to prevent artificial intelligence from ending humanity was again arrested while protesting outside \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a>’s San Francisco headquarters Thursday in apparent violation of a court order.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guido Reichstadter was booked into San Francisco County Jail on Thursday evening, records show, for allegedly violating a judge’s order that barred him from the premises following his previous arrest with members of Stop AI. The group \u003ca href=\"https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/openais-sam-altman-served-subpoena-141003524.html\">made national headlines\u003c/a> last month when a member of their defense team served a subpoena to OpenAI CEO Sam Altman while he was onstage at San Francisco’s Sydney Goldstein Theater with Golden State Warriors head coach Steve Kerr.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Every day is an opportunity to collectively reclaim our integrity and our sanity — to draw the line which says this far and no farther, to end the race to superintelligence — but these days are dwindling rapidly and we do not know which day will be the last before that opportunity is lost to us forever,” Reichstadter \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/wolflovesmelon/status/1996584982396211543\">posted on X\u003c/a> Wednesday while announcing he was planning to continue to protest OpenAI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reichstadter and Stop AI co-founder Sam Kirchner — along with co-defendant Wynd Kaufmyn — are awaiting trial for trespassing and other charges related to their continued protests outside OpenAI’s offices starting last year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attorneys for Altman have attempted to have his subpoena to testify at the criminal trial thrown out, but on Nov. 21, Judge Maria E. Evangelista ruled that that decision should be made by the judge who will be presiding over the trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although the trial was set to start Friday, it was pushed back to Jan. 29. Records show Reichstadter remained in San Francisco County Jail without bond as of Friday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066267\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066267\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-2000x1333.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-2048x1365.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stop AI co-founder Sam Kirchner speaks into a bullhorn outside OpenAI’s headquarters in San Francisco on Feb. 22, 2025. A bench warrant has been issued for Kirchner, who did not appear for a court appearance for trespassing and other charges late last month. Kirchner recently separated from the group. \u003ccite>(Brian Krans/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Also on Nov. 21, Evangelista issued a bench warrant for Kirchner’s arrest when he failed to show for a court hearing. That same day, OpenAI’s offices were locked down following threats authorities believed to have come from Kirchner, as \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/openai-office-lockdown-threat-san-francisco/?_sp=8f666012-7ff2-4d29-8dc9-047bbae3c137.1764640349753\">first reported by Wired\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Nov. 22, Stop AI \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/StopAI_Info/status/1992286218802073981\">posted on social media\u003c/a> that Kirchner assaulted a fellow member of the group. The attack and statements he made caused them to “fear that he might procure a weapon that he could use against employees of companies pursuing artificial superintelligence,” the post said, adding they still care about Kirchner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kirchner has since \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/No_AGI_/status/1991833980795326712\">posted on social media\u003c/a> that he is no longer associated with Stop AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The three co-defendants readily admit they prevented business operations at OpenAI as charged. Rather than setting out to prove their innocence, they said they were taking their misdemeanor charges to court to further raise awareness of their cause. They, among others who express extreme caution around the current development of AI, say there could soon be a point of no return between human intelligence and the artificial intelligence it is rapidly developing and deploying.[aside postID=news_12058013 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/GavinNewsomAISF2.jpg']“The actions that we took from October to February – nonviolently blocking the doors of OpenAI — have gotten attention around the world,” Reichstadter said. “They are the reason why Sam Altman was served a subpoena to appear to testify to the fact that he is consciously endangering the existence of humanity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>OpenAI did not respond to requests for comment. An attorney representing Altman, Gabriel Bronshteyn, declined to comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a statement, Stop AI said the trial “will be the first time in human history where a jury of normal people are asked about the extinction threat that AI poses to humanity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stop AI consists mostly of a small group of people who once lived together in a house in West Oakland. Reichstadter said he left his two teenage children in Miami to move to Oakland to join the fight against the development of potentially harmful AI, while Kirchner — a former electrical engineering tech and neuroscience student — moved from Seattle to found Stop AI in the Bay Area last year. Kaufmyn spent more than 40 years teaching computer sciences at City College of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stop AI members often cite Nobel laureate and “godfather of AI” Geoffrey Hinton, who has said there’s a 20% chance that forms of AI currently being developed could “\u003ca href=\"https://www.cnbc.com/2025/06/17/ai-godfather-geoffrey-hinton-theres-a-chance-that-ai-could-displace-humans.html\">wipe us out\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Of specific concern is artificial general intelligence, which OpenAI is trying to develop and defines as “AI systems that are generally smarter than humans.” \u003ca href=\"https://www.ibm.com/think/topics/artificial-general-intelligence\">Other definitions\u003c/a> suggest it applies to the moment when AI learns to solve problems beyond the limitations it has today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066178\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066178\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie speaks at the opening of the new OpenAI headquarters in Mission Bay in San Francisco on March 10, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While OpenAI says it is developing AGI so it “benefits all of humanity,” Stop AI wants the government to shut it down immediately.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There is no way to prove that something smarter than us will stay safe forever and won’t eventually want something that will lead to our extinction, similar to how we’ve caused the extinction of many less intelligent species, and that’s the risk here,” Kirchner said in an interview at a protest outside OpenAI in February. “They don’t have proof that it will stay safe forever. They’re literally building Skynet in there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even while already facing charges from protests in 2024, Stop AI members continued to protest OpenAI, including in February when they chained the doors to the company’s headquarters on 3rd Street near Chase Center and sat in front of the doors until police removed some of them from the premises.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re gonna lock the doors now to this company,” Kirchner said through a bullhorn. “This company should not exist if it’s trying to build something that they admit could kill us all. So we’re gonna put our bodies on the line and try to prevent them from building that AGI system. And we invite everyone who thinks that what they’re doing is not OK to join us in this act of civil disobedience.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The protest occurred on a Saturday, when OpenAI’s offices were closed.[aside postID=news_12063401 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/OpenAiLawsuitsGetty.jpg']“What’s going on in this business is not a legitimate business. It’s a threat to all of us. We have a right to protect the ones we love. We have a right to protect our own lives. We have the right of necessity to take nonviolent direct action to stop an imminent threat to our lives,” Reichstadter said before putting a steel chain through the handles of the front door of the OpenAI offices and locking it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Soon, he and others sat in front of the door as San Francisco police arrived and detained several people, including Reichstadter and Kaufmyn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ahead of the court hearing on Nov. 21, Kaufmyn and Reichstadter spoke at a press conference about their concerns around AI, its use in war and its potential dangers to future generations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s so many reasons to be concerned about AI, but when I went to these presentations, I learned that the fate of humanity, the existence of every human life on Earth, is at stake, and the time frame is much closer than you would think,” Kaufmyn said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kaufmyn said she’s not afraid to go to jail for protesting OpenAI if it benefits humanity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We fully believe there is a credible risk of human extinction within the next one to three years,” Kaufmyn said. “Imagine if you believed that, as I do, as my co-defendants do, what would you do? We — with heavy hearts and fear — decided that we need to do everything we can to stop this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reichstadter said he’s away from his children because he wants to guarantee them a future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are being pushed towards the edge of a cliff by the reckless actions of these companies, and no one knows how close that edge is,” he said. “It’s our responsibility — everyone who understands this threat — to take direct nonviolent action immediately to end the race to super intelligence, the suicide race, which these companies are leading humanity to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>A member of a Bay Area group that says they are trying to prevent artificial intelligence from ending humanity was again arrested while protesting outside \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a>’s San Francisco headquarters Thursday in apparent violation of a court order.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guido Reichstadter was booked into San Francisco County Jail on Thursday evening, records show, for allegedly violating a judge’s order that barred him from the premises following his previous arrest with members of Stop AI. The group \u003ca href=\"https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/openais-sam-altman-served-subpoena-141003524.html\">made national headlines\u003c/a> last month when a member of their defense team served a subpoena to OpenAI CEO Sam Altman while he was onstage at San Francisco’s Sydney Goldstein Theater with Golden State Warriors head coach Steve Kerr.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Every day is an opportunity to collectively reclaim our integrity and our sanity — to draw the line which says this far and no farther, to end the race to superintelligence — but these days are dwindling rapidly and we do not know which day will be the last before that opportunity is lost to us forever,” Reichstadter \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/wolflovesmelon/status/1996584982396211543\">posted on X\u003c/a> Wednesday while announcing he was planning to continue to protest OpenAI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reichstadter and Stop AI co-founder Sam Kirchner — along with co-defendant Wynd Kaufmyn — are awaiting trial for trespassing and other charges related to their continued protests outside OpenAI’s offices starting last year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attorneys for Altman have attempted to have his subpoena to testify at the criminal trial thrown out, but on Nov. 21, Judge Maria E. Evangelista ruled that that decision should be made by the judge who will be presiding over the trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although the trial was set to start Friday, it was pushed back to Jan. 29. Records show Reichstadter remained in San Francisco County Jail without bond as of Friday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066267\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066267\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-2000x1333.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-2048x1365.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stop AI co-founder Sam Kirchner speaks into a bullhorn outside OpenAI’s headquarters in San Francisco on Feb. 22, 2025. A bench warrant has been issued for Kirchner, who did not appear for a court appearance for trespassing and other charges late last month. Kirchner recently separated from the group. \u003ccite>(Brian Krans/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Also on Nov. 21, Evangelista issued a bench warrant for Kirchner’s arrest when he failed to show for a court hearing. That same day, OpenAI’s offices were locked down following threats authorities believed to have come from Kirchner, as \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/openai-office-lockdown-threat-san-francisco/?_sp=8f666012-7ff2-4d29-8dc9-047bbae3c137.1764640349753\">first reported by Wired\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Nov. 22, Stop AI \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/StopAI_Info/status/1992286218802073981\">posted on social media\u003c/a> that Kirchner assaulted a fellow member of the group. The attack and statements he made caused them to “fear that he might procure a weapon that he could use against employees of companies pursuing artificial superintelligence,” the post said, adding they still care about Kirchner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kirchner has since \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/No_AGI_/status/1991833980795326712\">posted on social media\u003c/a> that he is no longer associated with Stop AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The three co-defendants readily admit they prevented business operations at OpenAI as charged. Rather than setting out to prove their innocence, they said they were taking their misdemeanor charges to court to further raise awareness of their cause. They, among others who express extreme caution around the current development of AI, say there could soon be a point of no return between human intelligence and the artificial intelligence it is rapidly developing and deploying.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“The actions that we took from October to February – nonviolently blocking the doors of OpenAI — have gotten attention around the world,” Reichstadter said. “They are the reason why Sam Altman was served a subpoena to appear to testify to the fact that he is consciously endangering the existence of humanity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>OpenAI did not respond to requests for comment. An attorney representing Altman, Gabriel Bronshteyn, declined to comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a statement, Stop AI said the trial “will be the first time in human history where a jury of normal people are asked about the extinction threat that AI poses to humanity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stop AI consists mostly of a small group of people who once lived together in a house in West Oakland. Reichstadter said he left his two teenage children in Miami to move to Oakland to join the fight against the development of potentially harmful AI, while Kirchner — a former electrical engineering tech and neuroscience student — moved from Seattle to found Stop AI in the Bay Area last year. Kaufmyn spent more than 40 years teaching computer sciences at City College of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stop AI members often cite Nobel laureate and “godfather of AI” Geoffrey Hinton, who has said there’s a 20% chance that forms of AI currently being developed could “\u003ca href=\"https://www.cnbc.com/2025/06/17/ai-godfather-geoffrey-hinton-theres-a-chance-that-ai-could-displace-humans.html\">wipe us out\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Of specific concern is artificial general intelligence, which OpenAI is trying to develop and defines as “AI systems that are generally smarter than humans.” \u003ca href=\"https://www.ibm.com/think/topics/artificial-general-intelligence\">Other definitions\u003c/a> suggest it applies to the moment when AI learns to solve problems beyond the limitations it has today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066178\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066178\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie speaks at the opening of the new OpenAI headquarters in Mission Bay in San Francisco on March 10, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While OpenAI says it is developing AGI so it “benefits all of humanity,” Stop AI wants the government to shut it down immediately.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There is no way to prove that something smarter than us will stay safe forever and won’t eventually want something that will lead to our extinction, similar to how we’ve caused the extinction of many less intelligent species, and that’s the risk here,” Kirchner said in an interview at a protest outside OpenAI in February. “They don’t have proof that it will stay safe forever. They’re literally building Skynet in there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even while already facing charges from protests in 2024, Stop AI members continued to protest OpenAI, including in February when they chained the doors to the company’s headquarters on 3rd Street near Chase Center and sat in front of the doors until police removed some of them from the premises.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re gonna lock the doors now to this company,” Kirchner said through a bullhorn. “This company should not exist if it’s trying to build something that they admit could kill us all. So we’re gonna put our bodies on the line and try to prevent them from building that AGI system. And we invite everyone who thinks that what they’re doing is not OK to join us in this act of civil disobedience.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The protest occurred on a Saturday, when OpenAI’s offices were closed.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“What’s going on in this business is not a legitimate business. It’s a threat to all of us. We have a right to protect the ones we love. We have a right to protect our own lives. We have the right of necessity to take nonviolent direct action to stop an imminent threat to our lives,” Reichstadter said before putting a steel chain through the handles of the front door of the OpenAI offices and locking it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Soon, he and others sat in front of the door as San Francisco police arrived and detained several people, including Reichstadter and Kaufmyn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ahead of the court hearing on Nov. 21, Kaufmyn and Reichstadter spoke at a press conference about their concerns around AI, its use in war and its potential dangers to future generations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s so many reasons to be concerned about AI, but when I went to these presentations, I learned that the fate of humanity, the existence of every human life on Earth, is at stake, and the time frame is much closer than you would think,” Kaufmyn said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kaufmyn said she’s not afraid to go to jail for protesting OpenAI if it benefits humanity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We fully believe there is a credible risk of human extinction within the next one to three years,” Kaufmyn said. “Imagine if you believed that, as I do, as my co-defendants do, what would you do? We — with heavy hearts and fear — decided that we need to do everything we can to stop this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reichstadter said he’s away from his children because he wants to guarantee them a future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are being pushed towards the edge of a cliff by the reckless actions of these companies, and no one knows how close that edge is,” he said. “It’s our responsibility — everyone who understands this threat — to take direct nonviolent action immediately to end the race to super intelligence, the suicide race, which these companies are leading humanity to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>The errant \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/earthquake\">earthquake\u003c/a> warning that lit up phones across Northern California with a notice of a quake in Nevada on Thursday morning was not a result of a problem with the early warning delivery system or MyShake phone application, officials said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At least four separate seismic stations detected ground motion “that told the system there was an earthquake,” which triggered the false warning of a magnitude 5.9 earthquake, according to officials with the U.S. Geological Survey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The USGS quickly canceled the warning and posted a statement online that said there was no earthquake at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is the very first time we’ve had what I call a through and through false alert delivery because of something that may have happened out somewhere out in the field,” ShakeAlert operations team lead Robert de Groot told KQED. “We’ve had occurrences where we’ve alerted more people than should have been alerted, but [in this case] something triggered the system, but it wasn’t an earthquake.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>USGS officials do not yet know what caused the shaking. De Groot said research teams are analyzing information from other seismic stations and could potentially launch a field investigation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Earth does different things all the time and we can’t know everything, but we’re continuing to improve the system to understand,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The alert, which urged people to “drop, cover and hold on” to prepare for imminent shaking, caused at least one TV station, KTVU, to report on the quake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Four million Californians have downloaded\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059704/why-your-phone-may-get-a-loud-earthquake-test-alert-this-week-and-how-the-myshake-app-works\"> the MyShake app\u003c/a>, which provides real-time alerts for earthquakes on smartphones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The app was developed at UC Berkeley’s Seismology Lab and funded by the California Governor’s Office of Emergency Services (Cal OES). It buzzes when an earthquake of a magnitude of 4.5 or higher occurs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Berkeley’s seismology team posted a statement to social media at 9:55 a.m. about the false alert by the USGS ShakeAlert system and distributed by the MyShake phone application.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This system has delivered more than 170 real alerts since 2019 and this incident is both unprecedented and rare,” MyShake said on \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/MyShakeApp/status/1996639456678629734\">X\u003c/a>. “Fortunately, there was no danger this morning, but this serves as a reminder that earthquake preparedness is essential.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>The errant \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/earthquake\">earthquake\u003c/a> warning that lit up phones across Northern California with a notice of a quake in Nevada on Thursday morning was not a result of a problem with the early warning delivery system or MyShake phone application, officials said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At least four separate seismic stations detected ground motion “that told the system there was an earthquake,” which triggered the false warning of a magnitude 5.9 earthquake, according to officials with the U.S. Geological Survey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The USGS quickly canceled the warning and posted a statement online that said there was no earthquake at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is the very first time we’ve had what I call a through and through false alert delivery because of something that may have happened out somewhere out in the field,” ShakeAlert operations team lead Robert de Groot told KQED. “We’ve had occurrences where we’ve alerted more people than should have been alerted, but [in this case] something triggered the system, but it wasn’t an earthquake.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>USGS officials do not yet know what caused the shaking. De Groot said research teams are analyzing information from other seismic stations and could potentially launch a field investigation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Earth does different things all the time and we can’t know everything, but we’re continuing to improve the system to understand,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The alert, which urged people to “drop, cover and hold on” to prepare for imminent shaking, caused at least one TV station, KTVU, to report on the quake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Four million Californians have downloaded\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059704/why-your-phone-may-get-a-loud-earthquake-test-alert-this-week-and-how-the-myshake-app-works\"> the MyShake app\u003c/a>, which provides real-time alerts for earthquakes on smartphones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The app was developed at UC Berkeley’s Seismology Lab and funded by the California Governor’s Office of Emergency Services (Cal OES). It buzzes when an earthquake of a magnitude of 4.5 or higher occurs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Berkeley’s seismology team posted a statement to social media at 9:55 a.m. about the false alert by the USGS ShakeAlert system and distributed by the MyShake phone application.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This system has delivered more than 170 real alerts since 2019 and this incident is both unprecedented and rare,” MyShake said on \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/MyShakeApp/status/1996639456678629734\">X\u003c/a>. “Fortunately, there was no danger this morning, but this serves as a reminder that earthquake preparedness is essential.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "what-happened-to-purple-moon-games-for-girls",
"title": "What Happened to Purple Moon Games for Girls?",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thirty years ago, video games were predominantly marketed to boys. Nintendo and Sega ran TV ads featuring boys proclaiming how “awesome” and “powerful” the latest system was. And the biggest computer games tended to revolve around male-coded activities like shooting or combat. But in the late ‘90s, a small indie game studio called Purple Moon set out to change that — creating story-rich, emotionally complex games designed to welcome girls into the world of computers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Close All Tabs producer Maya Cueva looks back on her own childhood experience with Purple Moon and talks with founder Brenda Laurel about the company’s legacy, its impact on girls in tech, and how it all came to an abrupt end.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Editor’s note: We updated one line to add context about a character in one of the Purple Moon games, which may affect how the character is understood.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6059143811\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://neogaian.org/wp/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda Laurel\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, interactive games designer, creator and founder of Purple Moon\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/girl-games-90s-fun-feminist/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ‘Girl Games’ of the ’90s Were Fun and Feminist\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Drew Dakessian, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WIRED \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/conscious-ux-leading-human-centered-design-in-the-age-of-ai-designing-the-future-of-artificial-intelligence-with-compassion-inclusion-and-openness_brenda-laurel_rikki-teeters/56629353/#edition=74110991&idiq=86310248\">Conscious UX: Leading Human-Centered Design in the Age of AI: Designing the Future of Artificial Intelligence with Compassion, Inclusion, and Openness \u003c/a>— Rikki Teeters, Don Norman, Brenda Laurel \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.si.edu/media/NMAH/NMAH-AC1498_Transcript_BrendaLaurel.pdf\">Brenda Laurel\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Christopher Weaver, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>Smithsonian Institution, Lemelson Center for The Study of Invention and Innovation \u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.lifewire.com/women-in-video-games-11690645\">Trailblazing Women in Video Gaming: Meet the Pioneers Who Shaped Design History\u003c/a> — D.S. Cohen, \u003ci>Lifewire\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Fighting over access to the family computer is a core childhood memory for Zillennials. Millennials too. I would spend hours on the living room PC playing games like Neopets and Club Penguin and Toontown. In the 90s and early 2000s, computer games from Oregon Trail to The Sims were super popular. But a lot of computer games were targeted toward young boys, while girls were largely left out of the conversation. That is, until Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon was an American developer of girls’ computer games based in Mountain View, California. The company was created in the 90s to disrupt the assumption that girls aren’t gamers. And it was really successful. In fact, Close All Tabs producer Maya Cueva played Purple Moon computer games all the time as a little girl. Until the company vanished completely. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I’m passing this episode off to our producer Maya, who’s gonna take us back to the 90s, before the whole girls and stem push was a thing. We’re gonna check out Purple Moon when it was an upstart little game studio, when its founder had an entirely new vision for what computer games could be. And we’ll try to get to the bottom of what really happened to Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Purple Moon\u003c/b>\u003cb> Intro: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do it again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My sister Olivia and I are watching a video on Youtube of our favorite computer game that we used to love as kids. From the 90s. This one is called the Starfire Soccer challenge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pass the ball, Fireflies! Please! Look, I’m begging you, pass! Would you please pass? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you remember any of this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We tried to find a way to actually play the games, but no luck. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we can’t play them, but we can watch the videos. We can watch the YouTube replays. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, like most old computer games, we’re stuck experiencing them vicariously through someone else. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s out of the center. Pass it here. Pass it over here. I’m open. That means you Dana, pass the ball. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The computer game follows the character Ginger and her teammates of the Fireflies soccer team as they prepare for the end-of-the-season game against their rival team, the Bulldogs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fireflies, Fireflies, go team! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was younger, the game’s animation seems so advanced. But visually, it’s actually pretty basic. It looks like an interactive comic. The images flip like a storybook, and the characters’ mouths don’t move when they talk. It is effective though. Animated soccer players rush towards each other, dashing down a green field surrounded by rowdy fans. The sound design is really immersive too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey Charla, you played really well today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh she’s so nice. So you learn how to be a good friend. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Starfire Soccer Challenge was just one of the games from Purple Moon. Purple Moon was a company that developed games targeted at young girls. They wanted to get girls into tech. And as a kid, I was obsessed with these games. They’re what got me into computer games in the first place. I still remember turning on my family’s PC in the basement, the humming sound of the computer starting up, and the excitement I felt putting the Purple Moon disk into the CD drive. Then the logo would play. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Purple Moon:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just hearing that intro gets me excited. These games shaped how I connected with computers and gaming. They expanded my imagination and put me in scenarios where I could choose my own adventure, from competing to win the Starfire Soccer Championship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starfire soccer challenge! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To exploring trails and a magical forest. There was even a game called Adventure Maker, which allowed you to make up your own scenarios and scenes in the game. For that era, it was kind of a revolutionary idea, especially to have that kind of decision making geared towards young girls. In the 90s, gaming was definitely seen as a space for boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Super Nintendo Commercial: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When you decide to step up to this kind of power, this kind of challenge, there’s only one place to come. The games of Super Nintendo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sega Genesis Commercial: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Young Bobby Angles has a problem. He needs to earn the respect of his peers. So he gets Sega Genesis, the ultimate action system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While young girls were primarily marketed Barbie games. Although I can’t lie, I did love this one Barbie fashion game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Barbie Fashion Designer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Making clothes for me is really easy and fun. Let me show you around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And another Barbie detective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Detective Barbie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re glad you’re here. You can help us find Ken. We’ve got a few tools that will help us do some super sleuthing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But mostly, these Barbie games felt like they were teaching us that girls should just love to dress up and to ride horses. With the Purple Moon computer games, I had a universe to play in that actually felt like it was for young girls. In one of the games, Secret Paths in the Forest, you learn about each character’s life and the insecurities and real traumas they were going through as teenage girls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Secret Paths in The Forest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My mom’s gone, and now birthdays just aren’t the same anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I loved these games as a kid. And then, Purple Moon just stopped making new games. And without more games I could relate to, my love for gaming faded as I got older. So now, in my 30s and often nostalgic for my childhood, I got curious what happened to these games that had such an impact on me? And what did Purple Moon do for girl gamers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I did a little research. Let’s start with the first tab. Who created Purple Moon and where are they now? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After some Googling, I was able to track down the creator of the Purple Moon computer games, Brenda Laurel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s always thrilling to meet someone whose lives were touched by the games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda is in her 70s now and was a pioneer in the tech world. I wondered how hard it must have been to work in a male-dominated field in the 90s, especially creating games that weren’t meant for guys. So when she agreed to sit down with me for an interview, I geeked out a little bit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As I’ve mentioned, you know, I’ve been a big fan of the games since I was little, of all the Purple Moon games. Like all of these games were so important to me. I think also just in me becoming like a storyteller, too, because of just how the games were presented. You know, it’s so exciting for me to get to talk to you. I think my inner child is like, “oh my God!” Fan girling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think it’s great. I think we we did get some things right about narrative and storytelling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda’s introduction to the gaming industry happened completely by chance. In the 70s, before she ever dreamt up Purple Moon, Brenda was studying theater at Ohio State University. That’s when one of her friends decided to start a personal computer company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was studying for my PhD generals looking for work and and they said, why don’t you come over and help us do some interactive fairy tales for this little machine with 2K of RAM? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This early tech was all new to Brenda, but she fell in love with it immediately. This same friend went on to create computer games through a company called Cybervision. Brenda’s experience in theater made her a perfect candidate for the type of games they were working on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was the period of time in the theater where actors were interacting with audiences in in productions like Hair and Dionysus in ’69. I had just directed uh uh pretty improvisational version of Robin Hood where the troupe went around and, you know, and kids would talk to them. And if an audience member suggested something, they would be required to change what they were doing to accommodate it. So it was kind of like a group improv. For me, that was a model that I could immediately and directly use in thinking about how to construct an interactive game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Working at Cybervision felt like a dream for Brenda. She got to combine her theatrical training with a newfound love of technology, all within a supportive workplace. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everybody was lovely. There wasn’t an a a drop of sexism anywhere. People were incredibly kind and smart and I treasured them all. So I was fortunate in that way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After working at Cybervision, she landed at Atari in the 1980s. Atari was a pioneering video game and computer company. They made some of the OG arcade hits like Pong and Space Invaders. This was the beginning of the tech boom and early tech innovation, and very much a boys club. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was extremely male dominated and there were subcultures of males inside of that culture that were even harder to deal with. You know, I had to, I remember my first day at Atari, I had to kick the boys out of the women’s room because that’s where they were smoking weed. And I said, you know what? There’s a woman in the house, I need to use the bathroom. Could you guys clear, you know? I learned to be pretty bitchy to great positive effect, I will add. Dropping the occasional F bomb at a at a staff meeting was always good for getting people’s attention in those days. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After Atari, Brenda went on to work at various tech companies, including Activision and even Apple. But at almost every stop, Brenda felt like games were targeted for boys, while girls were largely left out of the conversation. So she began to ask herself — how could she get more girls interested in computers? That’s a new tab. How Purple Moon changed the game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 1992, Brenda got a job at Interval Research, a research and technology incubator. Brenda was able to convince management to do a study on girls and games. At the time, research showed that parents were much more likely to buy computers for boys than for girls, even if girls expressed interest. And female gamers in the 90s were only about 10 to 25% of the gaming population, depending on the country. So there was a large gap in computer literacy for young girls. Brenda wanted to learn why. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Generally speaking, you didn’t see little girls putting their hands on the machine because they would say, “I’m afraid I’ll make a mistake. I don’t want to touch it. It’s for boys.” So there were gender biases built into the way girls thought about how they might relate to technology. And our thinking as we spoke about it was as we move into a more technological world, they’ve got to get comfortable with it so that they have access to the power and help and joy, you know, that they might get from it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then, as we went out and started interviewing little girls, what we discovered was we couldn’t ask what’s your favorite computer game because there weren’t any for them, and they weren’t really playing. So we changed the question to how do girls and boys play and how is it different? What we learned in the course of talking with these girls is that it’s a hell of a hard time of life to be a tween girl. There’s all kinds of social stuff coming from the way women and girls relate to each other in same sex groups. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so they had issues, not just about technology, but about life that we were seeing, you know, writ large and everything they said didn’t matter what city we were in, we were hearing the same thing. “I feel like everything happens and I can’t do anything about it. I don’t know who I am yet. I don’t know how to help people. Oh, I wish I hadn’t made that decision.” You know, there’s a lot of negative stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So after interviewing over a thousand young girls and about 500 young boys on their real life experiences navigating their pre-teen and teenage years, Brenda had an idea. What if she could develop a game that was entirely meant for young girls through their eyes? One that could have a positive impact on their lives. And so the idea for Purple Moon was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It wasn’t easy to get into the computer gaming market with games geared for girls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In those days, these boys games were sold to boys in stores that were frequented by boys and you know, you just weren’t gonna put it in front of a kid unless you could get it into a toy store or some other kind of retail establishment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many hands helped launch Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For sure it takes a village, when I say my games or I designed this, I mean me and, you know, sixty other people who were sitting in the studio or we had wonderful writers and artists and thinkers and researchers and programmers. Uh so yeah, we worked together like a well-oiled machine, except when we didn’t. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon eventually became an independent company. The first Purple Moon game was released in 1997 and called Rockett’s New School. Visually, it had the same animated comic strip vibe as the other Purple Moon games that would come later. The game allows you to play as the character, Rockett Movado, on her first day of eighth grade at her new school. A PA announcement greets you as the game begins. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome, students. It’s another fantastic year at Whistling Pines Junior High! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi. Listen, I’m sorry to just kind of intrude, but I’m pretty sure you’re new, right? Yeah, I am. My name’s Rockett. Wow, really? Well anyway, I’m Jessie. So you wanna walk in with me, Rockett? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The idea was with Rockett that you could make a choice. Something unfolds and you have a moment. How do I feel about this? We called it emotional navigation. And so you would click on thought bubbles. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Venturing into the cafeteria scene alone could be fun. This is terrible. Not even a single friend to sit with. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you know, I feel terrible, I want to cry. Why don’t I make up with her? Hey, maybe Charla can help. You pick one of those, the thing plays out. If you don’t like what happens, you can go back and change it and see what happens instead. So this kind of social and emotional flexibility is incredibly important to girls that age. And having a sense of personal agency and a sense that you can make choices that matter and change your mind. These are really important milestones in that hard journey from being a little girl to a teenager. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So my mission sort of changed from a tech equity one to a how can I build something here, design something here that will help little girls have a better time in their lives and achieve greater self-esteem and feel the sense of personal agency coming to life. So that’s really why I did it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I love that. I mean, that’s why I really think I love the game so much is because you also were able to choose your own adventure and kind of have autonomy with your choice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I think even even though I was so young, I still felt like I felt power you know, I felt empowered by that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It worked. It worked! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time, I don’t think I realized how the ability to choose my own adventures in the Purple Moon games helped shape some of my decision making as a young girl. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the idea was not so much choose your own adventure, but choose your own response. Choose your path of navigation through this relatively complex social situation. I’m so proud that just about every scenario you see in any of those games comes from the girls we talk to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another way Purple Moon was way ahead of its time was with its website. Through it, they found entirely new ways to engage girl gamers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tools for making a website were not easily available. So putting that together, Christy Rosenthal led that team inside of Purple Moon and um was an astoundingly successful website. We were beating Disney.com for hits and dwell time for at least the first six months of our lives as a company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. Yeah, I don’t think I ever went on the website. I just always had the CD-ROM games.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a whole different world over there. You could write articles for the Whistling Pines newspaper and then we would, you know, incorporate ideas into the storyline. So we were having a kind of narrative conversation with girls on the web, getting ideas for what we might do in the games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Purple Moon website was pretty popular, and one reporter for Wired described it as an online space where she could make friends and be herself. It was like an early social networking site just for girls, where they could send each other online postcards and learn about new characters. Like I mentioned earlier, the Purple Moon games weren’t exactly visually advanced. I asked Brenda what it was like to design these games with the limited technology of the 90s. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were pretty much animated comic strips. And the reason for that was that we didn’t have the processing power to do good enough lip sync animation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And uh and the computers that were around that day. And we could never get it right. It would always lag just enough to make you crazy. I mean we really tried it, but we couldn’t get there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While a considerable amount of research went into making the Purple Moon games, not everyone liked the direction the games took. There were definitely some critics at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We got blowback on these games both from men who thought they were stupid and from hardcore feminists who thought girls ought to behave differently. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll get into that. After this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re back. Time for a new tab. Purple moon gets pushback. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So after the first Purple Moon game, Rockett’s New School was released, a reporter for the New York Times gave a scathing review. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The guy who reviewed the games in the New York Times thought they were just silly. Like, why would you care about who you’re going to be friends with in high school? You know, boys have a very different way of establishing social status in peer groups, generally speaking, we’re all, you know, we’re talking about averages, not everybody, but there’s a very different method. And so when a man looked at it, it’s like, what? Where’s the competition? You know, nobody’s shooting anybody. There are no monsters, no racing cars. What are you thinking? You know, it was that kind of stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it just delighted me. I thought, I have alienated the right person. One of our strategies here with the whole branding of the games as it evolved was to make sure that they gave boys cooties. We didn’t want boys to play them. The reason was that if your big brother played it and had the same response as the New York Times critic did and said, “this game is really lame”. You’d probably go, “Oh, I better not play it in front of John. ” You know, “oh, it’s not cool. I guess I shouldn’t do it.” That happens, you know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what we wanted was for to present something that girls said, “I own this. You know, I own this. And and you don’t get to tell me whether it’s any good or not.” So, we we made purple packaging, you know, we did all kinds of stuff to to alienate male players from picking it up and buying it because of that business of judgment coming from boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Male critics of the games didn’t surprise Brenda. What did surprise her was criticism from some women and feminists who didn’t like the games either. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were silly ones and there were reasonably good ones. You know, there’s an issue about girls behaving in a way that’s considered to be badly. Um, Gossip, exclusion, breaking of affiliations. These are the ways that girls covertly establish their social position, generally speaking. Those are tools that girls and women use. So that was part of it. They didn’t see queer people. Well, in 1995, ’96, we weren’t talking about queer people eleven years old. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmm hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, that that was a step too far. We didn’t have religion in the game either for the same reason. And it was just like stuff you didn’t talk about yet. Today, if I were doing it today, I would certainly deal with gender fluidity, with trans kids. I all of that stuff would come into play. But in in that period of time, that wasn’t possible. And yet, generally speaking, there was nothing but praise from women and educators and coaches and stuff like that. And and the sales were great. We were beating John Madden football for the first quarter that we were out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Critics also had issues with the research conducted to create Purple Moon. Some thought that the girls they interviewed may have already internalized gender stereotypes about what girls should like based on their age. They felt that Brenda and her team were just perpetuating the same gender tropes from their data. There was also criticism surrounding racial stereotypes in the games. One article I found stated that the game used cliches, quote, “such as the snobby popular blonde girl and the smart Asian with glasses.” Brenda felt differently about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I look at the games, I don’t see no racial stereotyping. And it certainly didn’t cause us to make any changes because, you know, we looked at it, we took it seriously, we evaluated it. And we came to the decision that it was incorrect. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While watching the replay of my favorite game, the Starfire Soccer Challenge on YouTube, I did notice how Miko, one of the characters in the game who is Asian, is depicted as a Samurai with a sword as she runs down the soccer field. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re scared now. They’re intimidated. They’re ugh.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll be honest, I cringed a bit at first at this image. But I later learned that the “Samurai Miko” character was actually designed by an Asian-American artist named Grace Chen, which definitely adds important context. While I don’t think the games are perfect, I do admire that Brenda and her team did extensive research with real young girls at the time to hear about what they were actually going through. And some articles stated that the Starfire Soccer Challenge game was beneficial. One even called it, quote, “an outstanding example of digital technology supporting positive emotional development.” I wonder what the games could look like now if they were created today. What would young girls, boys, or non-binary players desire to see in the games? And how could developers correct some of the cliches seen in the games in the 90s? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They wouldn’t be the same. We might get to some of the same emotional and ethical places that we did in the original games. It would take a boatload of new research because just as those girls I interviewed weren’t me at 10, um, the girls today aren’t you. And we need to go out and talk to them, learn what their lives are like, you know, figure it out. And I’d be tempted the second time around to build a game for little boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda never got the opportunity to make a game for boys. In 1999, after only three years, the company folded. But why did this happen? That’s a new tab. What happened to Purple Moon? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 1999, Purple Moon’s biggest funder, Paul Allen, decided to shift his focus to the e-commerce sector, which was beginning to take off at the time. Ultimately, he decided to take his money out of Purple Moon. This had very serious consequences for the company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We got the news from the board that they were gonna shut us down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmm. Wow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We we had eighty people expecting their paycheck that day. They had frozen our bank accounts. My CEO Nancy Deyo and I got in the car with the CFO. We remembered that we’d made a deposit on our office space with a different bank. So we got in the car, raced over there, took that money out in cash and gave everybody their pay. And they ended up selling the the company to Mattel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After the board decided to shut Purple Moon down, Brenda and others were terminated from the company. Then, once Mattel bought the gaming studio, the Purple Moon games eventually stopped being created for good. Brenda was devastated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Took me about a year to recover personally from that. After we shut down the website, we put a goodbye message on the on the front so if you logged into it, it would say, “Hi, we’ve had to leave. We’re so sorry we’ll miss you. ” Well, it turns out that if you were already on the site, if you didn’t leave, if you just sort of kept that window open, your friends could come into the site and join. We had like 300 kids joining Purple Moon after it was shut down because they were sneaking into the side door of the website. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even though Purple Moon’s closure was bittersweet, Brenda felt that the company had accomplished what it set out to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I absolutely feel like we hit the goal of making games that would enrich and enhance the lives of little girls. I feel like it was, you know, act of love from all of us, um who worked on it creatively. And I feel like we succeeded. I know that because I hear from people like you who tell me this changed my life. That’s what we wanted to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And, you know, girls would have ended up getting literate with computers anyway, as soon as the internet became something you could actually get to uh easily. A lot of the “I’m afraid to put my hands on the keyboard” stuff went away. I mean, we probably helped with that transition. And it wasn’t very long until females were at least half, if not more than half, of of the audience on the web for everything. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda began envisioning Purple Moon at a time when computer games weren’t designed with girls in mind. Since the 90s, the percentage of female gamers has grown to 47% in the US. Brenda wouldn’t claim credit for that entire change, but it’s hard to deny Purple Moon’s influence on girl gamers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe my love for gaming started because the Purple Moon games felt accessible. And maybe it ended because CD-ROMs eventually became obsolete, and I never quite felt like the video game universe was meant for me. Whatever the case, the world of Purple Moon was a place I felt like I belonged, where I had agency. And for young Maya, that was everything. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much, Brenda. This was so great to get to talk to you. I feel like little Maya is so happy right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Give little Maya a hug from me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was reported and produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED Podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also! We want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or TikTok at “close all tabs.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thirty years ago, video games were predominantly marketed to boys. Nintendo and Sega ran TV ads featuring boys proclaiming how “awesome” and “powerful” the latest system was. And the biggest computer games tended to revolve around male-coded activities like shooting or combat. But in the late ‘90s, a small indie game studio called Purple Moon set out to change that — creating story-rich, emotionally complex games designed to welcome girls into the world of computers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Close All Tabs producer Maya Cueva looks back on her own childhood experience with Purple Moon and talks with founder Brenda Laurel about the company’s legacy, its impact on girls in tech, and how it all came to an abrupt end.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Editor’s note: We updated one line to add context about a character in one of the Purple Moon games, which may affect how the character is understood.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6059143811\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://neogaian.org/wp/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda Laurel\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, interactive games designer, creator and founder of Purple Moon\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/girl-games-90s-fun-feminist/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ‘Girl Games’ of the ’90s Were Fun and Feminist\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Drew Dakessian, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WIRED \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/conscious-ux-leading-human-centered-design-in-the-age-of-ai-designing-the-future-of-artificial-intelligence-with-compassion-inclusion-and-openness_brenda-laurel_rikki-teeters/56629353/#edition=74110991&idiq=86310248\">Conscious UX: Leading Human-Centered Design in the Age of AI: Designing the Future of Artificial Intelligence with Compassion, Inclusion, and Openness \u003c/a>— Rikki Teeters, Don Norman, Brenda Laurel \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.si.edu/media/NMAH/NMAH-AC1498_Transcript_BrendaLaurel.pdf\">Brenda Laurel\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Christopher Weaver, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>Smithsonian Institution, Lemelson Center for The Study of Invention and Innovation \u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.lifewire.com/women-in-video-games-11690645\">Trailblazing Women in Video Gaming: Meet the Pioneers Who Shaped Design History\u003c/a> — D.S. Cohen, \u003ci>Lifewire\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Fighting over access to the family computer is a core childhood memory for Zillennials. Millennials too. I would spend hours on the living room PC playing games like Neopets and Club Penguin and Toontown. In the 90s and early 2000s, computer games from Oregon Trail to The Sims were super popular. But a lot of computer games were targeted toward young boys, while girls were largely left out of the conversation. That is, until Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon was an American developer of girls’ computer games based in Mountain View, California. The company was created in the 90s to disrupt the assumption that girls aren’t gamers. And it was really successful. In fact, Close All Tabs producer Maya Cueva played Purple Moon computer games all the time as a little girl. Until the company vanished completely. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I’m passing this episode off to our producer Maya, who’s gonna take us back to the 90s, before the whole girls and stem push was a thing. We’re gonna check out Purple Moon when it was an upstart little game studio, when its founder had an entirely new vision for what computer games could be. And we’ll try to get to the bottom of what really happened to Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Purple Moon\u003c/b>\u003cb> Intro: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do it again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My sister Olivia and I are watching a video on Youtube of our favorite computer game that we used to love as kids. From the 90s. This one is called the Starfire Soccer challenge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pass the ball, Fireflies! Please! Look, I’m begging you, pass! Would you please pass? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you remember any of this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We tried to find a way to actually play the games, but no luck. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we can’t play them, but we can watch the videos. We can watch the YouTube replays. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, like most old computer games, we’re stuck experiencing them vicariously through someone else. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s out of the center. Pass it here. Pass it over here. I’m open. That means you Dana, pass the ball. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The computer game follows the character Ginger and her teammates of the Fireflies soccer team as they prepare for the end-of-the-season game against their rival team, the Bulldogs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fireflies, Fireflies, go team! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was younger, the game’s animation seems so advanced. But visually, it’s actually pretty basic. It looks like an interactive comic. The images flip like a storybook, and the characters’ mouths don’t move when they talk. It is effective though. Animated soccer players rush towards each other, dashing down a green field surrounded by rowdy fans. The sound design is really immersive too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey Charla, you played really well today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh she’s so nice. So you learn how to be a good friend. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Starfire Soccer Challenge was just one of the games from Purple Moon. Purple Moon was a company that developed games targeted at young girls. They wanted to get girls into tech. And as a kid, I was obsessed with these games. They’re what got me into computer games in the first place. I still remember turning on my family’s PC in the basement, the humming sound of the computer starting up, and the excitement I felt putting the Purple Moon disk into the CD drive. Then the logo would play. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Purple Moon:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just hearing that intro gets me excited. These games shaped how I connected with computers and gaming. They expanded my imagination and put me in scenarios where I could choose my own adventure, from competing to win the Starfire Soccer Championship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starfire soccer challenge! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To exploring trails and a magical forest. There was even a game called Adventure Maker, which allowed you to make up your own scenarios and scenes in the game. For that era, it was kind of a revolutionary idea, especially to have that kind of decision making geared towards young girls. In the 90s, gaming was definitely seen as a space for boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Super Nintendo Commercial: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When you decide to step up to this kind of power, this kind of challenge, there’s only one place to come. The games of Super Nintendo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sega Genesis Commercial: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Young Bobby Angles has a problem. He needs to earn the respect of his peers. So he gets Sega Genesis, the ultimate action system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While young girls were primarily marketed Barbie games. Although I can’t lie, I did love this one Barbie fashion game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Barbie Fashion Designer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Making clothes for me is really easy and fun. Let me show you around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And another Barbie detective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Detective Barbie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re glad you’re here. You can help us find Ken. We’ve got a few tools that will help us do some super sleuthing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But mostly, these Barbie games felt like they were teaching us that girls should just love to dress up and to ride horses. With the Purple Moon computer games, I had a universe to play in that actually felt like it was for young girls. In one of the games, Secret Paths in the Forest, you learn about each character’s life and the insecurities and real traumas they were going through as teenage girls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Secret Paths in The Forest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My mom’s gone, and now birthdays just aren’t the same anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I loved these games as a kid. And then, Purple Moon just stopped making new games. And without more games I could relate to, my love for gaming faded as I got older. So now, in my 30s and often nostalgic for my childhood, I got curious what happened to these games that had such an impact on me? And what did Purple Moon do for girl gamers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I did a little research. Let’s start with the first tab. Who created Purple Moon and where are they now? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After some Googling, I was able to track down the creator of the Purple Moon computer games, Brenda Laurel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s always thrilling to meet someone whose lives were touched by the games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda is in her 70s now and was a pioneer in the tech world. I wondered how hard it must have been to work in a male-dominated field in the 90s, especially creating games that weren’t meant for guys. So when she agreed to sit down with me for an interview, I geeked out a little bit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As I’ve mentioned, you know, I’ve been a big fan of the games since I was little, of all the Purple Moon games. Like all of these games were so important to me. I think also just in me becoming like a storyteller, too, because of just how the games were presented. You know, it’s so exciting for me to get to talk to you. I think my inner child is like, “oh my God!” Fan girling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think it’s great. I think we we did get some things right about narrative and storytelling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda’s introduction to the gaming industry happened completely by chance. In the 70s, before she ever dreamt up Purple Moon, Brenda was studying theater at Ohio State University. That’s when one of her friends decided to start a personal computer company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was studying for my PhD generals looking for work and and they said, why don’t you come over and help us do some interactive fairy tales for this little machine with 2K of RAM? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This early tech was all new to Brenda, but she fell in love with it immediately. This same friend went on to create computer games through a company called Cybervision. Brenda’s experience in theater made her a perfect candidate for the type of games they were working on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was the period of time in the theater where actors were interacting with audiences in in productions like Hair and Dionysus in ’69. I had just directed uh uh pretty improvisational version of Robin Hood where the troupe went around and, you know, and kids would talk to them. And if an audience member suggested something, they would be required to change what they were doing to accommodate it. So it was kind of like a group improv. For me, that was a model that I could immediately and directly use in thinking about how to construct an interactive game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Working at Cybervision felt like a dream for Brenda. She got to combine her theatrical training with a newfound love of technology, all within a supportive workplace. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everybody was lovely. There wasn’t an a a drop of sexism anywhere. People were incredibly kind and smart and I treasured them all. So I was fortunate in that way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After working at Cybervision, she landed at Atari in the 1980s. Atari was a pioneering video game and computer company. They made some of the OG arcade hits like Pong and Space Invaders. This was the beginning of the tech boom and early tech innovation, and very much a boys club. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was extremely male dominated and there were subcultures of males inside of that culture that were even harder to deal with. You know, I had to, I remember my first day at Atari, I had to kick the boys out of the women’s room because that’s where they were smoking weed. And I said, you know what? There’s a woman in the house, I need to use the bathroom. Could you guys clear, you know? I learned to be pretty bitchy to great positive effect, I will add. Dropping the occasional F bomb at a at a staff meeting was always good for getting people’s attention in those days. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After Atari, Brenda went on to work at various tech companies, including Activision and even Apple. But at almost every stop, Brenda felt like games were targeted for boys, while girls were largely left out of the conversation. So she began to ask herself — how could she get more girls interested in computers? That’s a new tab. How Purple Moon changed the game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 1992, Brenda got a job at Interval Research, a research and technology incubator. Brenda was able to convince management to do a study on girls and games. At the time, research showed that parents were much more likely to buy computers for boys than for girls, even if girls expressed interest. And female gamers in the 90s were only about 10 to 25% of the gaming population, depending on the country. So there was a large gap in computer literacy for young girls. Brenda wanted to learn why. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Generally speaking, you didn’t see little girls putting their hands on the machine because they would say, “I’m afraid I’ll make a mistake. I don’t want to touch it. It’s for boys.” So there were gender biases built into the way girls thought about how they might relate to technology. And our thinking as we spoke about it was as we move into a more technological world, they’ve got to get comfortable with it so that they have access to the power and help and joy, you know, that they might get from it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then, as we went out and started interviewing little girls, what we discovered was we couldn’t ask what’s your favorite computer game because there weren’t any for them, and they weren’t really playing. So we changed the question to how do girls and boys play and how is it different? What we learned in the course of talking with these girls is that it’s a hell of a hard time of life to be a tween girl. There’s all kinds of social stuff coming from the way women and girls relate to each other in same sex groups. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so they had issues, not just about technology, but about life that we were seeing, you know, writ large and everything they said didn’t matter what city we were in, we were hearing the same thing. “I feel like everything happens and I can’t do anything about it. I don’t know who I am yet. I don’t know how to help people. Oh, I wish I hadn’t made that decision.” You know, there’s a lot of negative stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So after interviewing over a thousand young girls and about 500 young boys on their real life experiences navigating their pre-teen and teenage years, Brenda had an idea. What if she could develop a game that was entirely meant for young girls through their eyes? One that could have a positive impact on their lives. And so the idea for Purple Moon was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It wasn’t easy to get into the computer gaming market with games geared for girls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In those days, these boys games were sold to boys in stores that were frequented by boys and you know, you just weren’t gonna put it in front of a kid unless you could get it into a toy store or some other kind of retail establishment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many hands helped launch Purple Moon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For sure it takes a village, when I say my games or I designed this, I mean me and, you know, sixty other people who were sitting in the studio or we had wonderful writers and artists and thinkers and researchers and programmers. Uh so yeah, we worked together like a well-oiled machine, except when we didn’t. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Purple Moon eventually became an independent company. The first Purple Moon game was released in 1997 and called Rockett’s New School. Visually, it had the same animated comic strip vibe as the other Purple Moon games that would come later. The game allows you to play as the character, Rockett Movado, on her first day of eighth grade at her new school. A PA announcement greets you as the game begins. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome, students. It’s another fantastic year at Whistling Pines Junior High! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi. Listen, I’m sorry to just kind of intrude, but I’m pretty sure you’re new, right? Yeah, I am. My name’s Rockett. Wow, really? Well anyway, I’m Jessie. So you wanna walk in with me, Rockett? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The idea was with Rockett that you could make a choice. Something unfolds and you have a moment. How do I feel about this? We called it emotional navigation. And so you would click on thought bubbles. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rockett’s New School:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Venturing into the cafeteria scene alone could be fun. This is terrible. Not even a single friend to sit with. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you know, I feel terrible, I want to cry. Why don’t I make up with her? Hey, maybe Charla can help. You pick one of those, the thing plays out. If you don’t like what happens, you can go back and change it and see what happens instead. So this kind of social and emotional flexibility is incredibly important to girls that age. And having a sense of personal agency and a sense that you can make choices that matter and change your mind. These are really important milestones in that hard journey from being a little girl to a teenager. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So my mission sort of changed from a tech equity one to a how can I build something here, design something here that will help little girls have a better time in their lives and achieve greater self-esteem and feel the sense of personal agency coming to life. So that’s really why I did it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I love that. I mean, that’s why I really think I love the game so much is because you also were able to choose your own adventure and kind of have autonomy with your choice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I think even even though I was so young, I still felt like I felt power you know, I felt empowered by that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It worked. It worked! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time, I don’t think I realized how the ability to choose my own adventures in the Purple Moon games helped shape some of my decision making as a young girl. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the idea was not so much choose your own adventure, but choose your own response. Choose your path of navigation through this relatively complex social situation. I’m so proud that just about every scenario you see in any of those games comes from the girls we talk to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another way Purple Moon was way ahead of its time was with its website. Through it, they found entirely new ways to engage girl gamers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tools for making a website were not easily available. So putting that together, Christy Rosenthal led that team inside of Purple Moon and um was an astoundingly successful website. We were beating Disney.com for hits and dwell time for at least the first six months of our lives as a company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. Yeah, I don’t think I ever went on the website. I just always had the CD-ROM games.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a whole different world over there. You could write articles for the Whistling Pines newspaper and then we would, you know, incorporate ideas into the storyline. So we were having a kind of narrative conversation with girls on the web, getting ideas for what we might do in the games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Purple Moon website was pretty popular, and one reporter for Wired described it as an online space where she could make friends and be herself. It was like an early social networking site just for girls, where they could send each other online postcards and learn about new characters. Like I mentioned earlier, the Purple Moon games weren’t exactly visually advanced. I asked Brenda what it was like to design these games with the limited technology of the 90s. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were pretty much animated comic strips. And the reason for that was that we didn’t have the processing power to do good enough lip sync animation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And uh and the computers that were around that day. And we could never get it right. It would always lag just enough to make you crazy. I mean we really tried it, but we couldn’t get there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While a considerable amount of research went into making the Purple Moon games, not everyone liked the direction the games took. There were definitely some critics at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We got blowback on these games both from men who thought they were stupid and from hardcore feminists who thought girls ought to behave differently. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll get into that. After this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re back. Time for a new tab. Purple moon gets pushback. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So after the first Purple Moon game, Rockett’s New School was released, a reporter for the New York Times gave a scathing review. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The guy who reviewed the games in the New York Times thought they were just silly. Like, why would you care about who you’re going to be friends with in high school? You know, boys have a very different way of establishing social status in peer groups, generally speaking, we’re all, you know, we’re talking about averages, not everybody, but there’s a very different method. And so when a man looked at it, it’s like, what? Where’s the competition? You know, nobody’s shooting anybody. There are no monsters, no racing cars. What are you thinking? You know, it was that kind of stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it just delighted me. I thought, I have alienated the right person. One of our strategies here with the whole branding of the games as it evolved was to make sure that they gave boys cooties. We didn’t want boys to play them. The reason was that if your big brother played it and had the same response as the New York Times critic did and said, “this game is really lame”. You’d probably go, “Oh, I better not play it in front of John. ” You know, “oh, it’s not cool. I guess I shouldn’t do it.” That happens, you know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what we wanted was for to present something that girls said, “I own this. You know, I own this. And and you don’t get to tell me whether it’s any good or not.” So, we we made purple packaging, you know, we did all kinds of stuff to to alienate male players from picking it up and buying it because of that business of judgment coming from boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Male critics of the games didn’t surprise Brenda. What did surprise her was criticism from some women and feminists who didn’t like the games either. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were silly ones and there were reasonably good ones. You know, there’s an issue about girls behaving in a way that’s considered to be badly. Um, Gossip, exclusion, breaking of affiliations. These are the ways that girls covertly establish their social position, generally speaking. Those are tools that girls and women use. So that was part of it. They didn’t see queer people. Well, in 1995, ’96, we weren’t talking about queer people eleven years old. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmm hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, that that was a step too far. We didn’t have religion in the game either for the same reason. And it was just like stuff you didn’t talk about yet. Today, if I were doing it today, I would certainly deal with gender fluidity, with trans kids. I all of that stuff would come into play. But in in that period of time, that wasn’t possible. And yet, generally speaking, there was nothing but praise from women and educators and coaches and stuff like that. And and the sales were great. We were beating John Madden football for the first quarter that we were out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Critics also had issues with the research conducted to create Purple Moon. Some thought that the girls they interviewed may have already internalized gender stereotypes about what girls should like based on their age. They felt that Brenda and her team were just perpetuating the same gender tropes from their data. There was also criticism surrounding racial stereotypes in the games. One article I found stated that the game used cliches, quote, “such as the snobby popular blonde girl and the smart Asian with glasses.” Brenda felt differently about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I look at the games, I don’t see no racial stereotyping. And it certainly didn’t cause us to make any changes because, you know, we looked at it, we took it seriously, we evaluated it. And we came to the decision that it was incorrect. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While watching the replay of my favorite game, the Starfire Soccer Challenge on YouTube, I did notice how Miko, one of the characters in the game who is Asian, is depicted as a Samurai with a sword as she runs down the soccer field. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Starfire Soccer Challenge:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re scared now. They’re intimidated. They’re ugh.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll be honest, I cringed a bit at first at this image. But I later learned that the “Samurai Miko” character was actually designed by an Asian-American artist named Grace Chen, which definitely adds important context. While I don’t think the games are perfect, I do admire that Brenda and her team did extensive research with real young girls at the time to hear about what they were actually going through. And some articles stated that the Starfire Soccer Challenge game was beneficial. One even called it, quote, “an outstanding example of digital technology supporting positive emotional development.” I wonder what the games could look like now if they were created today. What would young girls, boys, or non-binary players desire to see in the games? And how could developers correct some of the cliches seen in the games in the 90s? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They wouldn’t be the same. We might get to some of the same emotional and ethical places that we did in the original games. It would take a boatload of new research because just as those girls I interviewed weren’t me at 10, um, the girls today aren’t you. And we need to go out and talk to them, learn what their lives are like, you know, figure it out. And I’d be tempted the second time around to build a game for little boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda never got the opportunity to make a game for boys. In 1999, after only three years, the company folded. But why did this happen? That’s a new tab. What happened to Purple Moon? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 1999, Purple Moon’s biggest funder, Paul Allen, decided to shift his focus to the e-commerce sector, which was beginning to take off at the time. Ultimately, he decided to take his money out of Purple Moon. This had very serious consequences for the company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We got the news from the board that they were gonna shut us down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmm. Wow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We we had eighty people expecting their paycheck that day. They had frozen our bank accounts. My CEO Nancy Deyo and I got in the car with the CFO. We remembered that we’d made a deposit on our office space with a different bank. So we got in the car, raced over there, took that money out in cash and gave everybody their pay. And they ended up selling the the company to Mattel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After the board decided to shut Purple Moon down, Brenda and others were terminated from the company. Then, once Mattel bought the gaming studio, the Purple Moon games eventually stopped being created for good. Brenda was devastated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Took me about a year to recover personally from that. After we shut down the website, we put a goodbye message on the on the front so if you logged into it, it would say, “Hi, we’ve had to leave. We’re so sorry we’ll miss you. ” Well, it turns out that if you were already on the site, if you didn’t leave, if you just sort of kept that window open, your friends could come into the site and join. We had like 300 kids joining Purple Moon after it was shut down because they were sneaking into the side door of the website. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even though Purple Moon’s closure was bittersweet, Brenda felt that the company had accomplished what it set out to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I absolutely feel like we hit the goal of making games that would enrich and enhance the lives of little girls. I feel like it was, you know, act of love from all of us, um who worked on it creatively. And I feel like we succeeded. I know that because I hear from people like you who tell me this changed my life. That’s what we wanted to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And, you know, girls would have ended up getting literate with computers anyway, as soon as the internet became something you could actually get to uh easily. A lot of the “I’m afraid to put my hands on the keyboard” stuff went away. I mean, we probably helped with that transition. And it wasn’t very long until females were at least half, if not more than half, of of the audience on the web for everything. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brenda began envisioning Purple Moon at a time when computer games weren’t designed with girls in mind. Since the 90s, the percentage of female gamers has grown to 47% in the US. Brenda wouldn’t claim credit for that entire change, but it’s hard to deny Purple Moon’s influence on girl gamers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe my love for gaming started because the Purple Moon games felt accessible. And maybe it ended because CD-ROMs eventually became obsolete, and I never quite felt like the video game universe was meant for me. Whatever the case, the world of Purple Moon was a place I felt like I belonged, where I had agency. And for young Maya, that was everything. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much, Brenda. This was so great to get to talk to you. I feel like little Maya is so happy right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brenda Laurel:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Give little Maya a hug from me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was reported and produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. Some members of the KQED Podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also! We want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or TikTok at “close all tabs.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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