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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Politics isn’t just pulling the country apart — it’s unsettling our most intimate relationships. Nearly half of Americans say they wouldn’t date someone who doesn’t share their political views. But what happens if you’re already in love, and politics becomes a fault line in your relationship? Can love make space for views you find impossible to accept?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If you have a connection to someone who believes something you think is harmful, you have an opportunity,” said Mónica Guzmán, host of the podcast “A Braver Way.” “Because if it’s not you who talks to that person, and potentially helps them see things a different way, then who’s going to do it?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll talk to Guzmán about how to stay curious even when you hate your lover’s politics — and how to coexist peacefully without surrendering your own convictions\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán,\u003c/strong> host, “\u003ca href=\"https://braverangels.org/abraverway/\">A Braver Way\u003c/a>” podcast; author, “I Never Thought of It That Way: How to Have Fearlessly Curious Conversations in Dangerously Divided Times”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Polarization is present in your own family. Your parents are enthusiastic Trump supporters. You are a liberal journalist from Seattle who voted for Joe Biden. Do you all avoid politics? Or how do you navigate those conversations?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Earlier on, it was a bit awkward. We didn’t know how to pick it up, but we’re a really unfiltered family. So as soon as we became citizens, because we’re Mexican immigrants, back in the year 2000, it became clear my parents were going to the right and me and my brother were going to the left. The volume at restaurants, when Glenn Beck or Rachel Maddow came up, it just went up. We would just fill the car, front seat versus back seat. But it got really tense after the 2016 election. That’s when we wondered: is the heat from the friction between our perspectives going to burn something, or is it going to cook something? The lessons we learned, trying to keep things to a simmer, going through rupture and repair cycles, trying to be honest with each other even while we let the other person be honest with us, boy, that was hard, but it taught us a lot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you try to avoid certain topics or do you find that you can find common ground?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>These days we talk about it all. There really is not much that we’re not able to discuss. To give you an example, my mother was a pro-life activist who went to the march on Washington, and I am decidedly pro-choice. So, the conversations would often include tears, her not believing that her own daughter could think these things. But we’re also able to have the most constructive conversations on abortion. The common ground we found is lots of people on both sides of this issue want fewer unwanted pregnancies. Okay, what can we do as a culture and as a society? You can get to some pretty constructive, incredible nuances of these issues and understand that both of us care deeply about what’s going on in different ways.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I imagine you’re not living with your parents anymore. You’re not with them 24 hours a day, like you may be with a partner. So, do you think it’s different for those who are navigating this inside a romantic relationship?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Absolutely, when you are living with them all the time, everything changes. I’ve heard from couples where one of them comes into the room, and they’re watching Fox News, or they’re watching MSNBC, you’re already triggered by something. And then different partners will have different ideas about whether or not to talk about politics. The problem is if politics is deeply meaningful to one or both partners, not talking about politics is not talking about me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What is the goal of those conversations? Are you trying to sway someone who has a deeply different view? Is that even possible in this moment? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>In a committed romantic relationship, you want to stay connected. You want to love and support your partner. So the goal has to include understanding. The good thing about being in a relationship is you’ve already built up enough trust to be able to be honest about how you feel. A difference in ideas can be an amazing opportunity to strengthen your connection. But it’s also a big challenge because it’s difficult to stay curious when the other person believes something you find obscene, that you find wild. And because of your relationship, your expectations get in the way of that goal of understanding to maintain connection. You’re going to say, “How could my own husband, how could my own wife, how could my own partner believe something like this?” That’s all going to make you want to run away from a conversation that could be really fascinating if you go ahead and have it. It’s through those clashes and diverse opinions within the trust of a relationship that you can learn so much about them and so much about you. One of the most productive questions that you ask across a divide, especially if it’s a values-based difference, is not, “Why don’t you care about this thing that I care about?” But rather, “What do you care about more?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I know a couple who’s navigating this. The guy is very right, and the woman is quite left. One thing that he says is so challenging is that their social media feeds are giving them very different facts. How does a couple have a responsible, empathetic conversation if they don’t share the same information on the topic? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>The way we do that is we follow each other’s threads without judgment. I know how difficult that can be because if you think that your partner is trusting sources that are bogus, all you want to do is tell them they’re wrong, the source is wrong, and that you just can’t have the conversation unless they agree with you. You love your partner, and your partner trusts this source. Why? Get curious about that and let that curiosity become a nonjudgmental accompaniment, and ask your partner, “Can you walk me through the source you see? Can you show me the newsletter?” And then listen and watch and ask questions that allow them to be open with you. Do not criticize the source until you fully understand what it’s all about. And then afterward say, “Can I walk you through my source and tell you why I trust them?” So much about the sources that we believe is about what they call up in us. Some sources reflect people’s concerns better than others. I think that’s the key. So even if somebody who disagrees is like, “There’s nothing factual there. There’s a lot of sensationalism.” And often that’s true. It’s still worth noting when a source tugs on something that matters to somebody, and it makes them gravitate to those voices. We need to understand that and pick up on that. Once you do that and people feel heard across that divide, then you can start a more persuasive conversation. I have received your source nonjudgmentally. Maybe you’ve received mine. Now can we talk about verification? Can we talk about substance? Can we talk about why I don’t trust your source? That conversation is better had after you understand why they trust theirs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If I am highly convinced that I know something about this issue and I’m not going to change, is it worth having a conversation about that issue with my partner?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>The best way for me to be heard on my convictions is to demonstrate to the other person that I can hear theirs. The trick is not to treat it as a strategy. I’m going to fake listen to them nonjudgmentally until they give me the time of day, and then I’m going to steamroll them and tell them how wrong they are. No. These conversations can be transformative. You are convicted; that’s great. It’s tough to be curious. It’s tough to be open, but again, how can anybody give you that gift if you can’t give it to anybody else? Also, there is nothing about receiving somebody’s opposing conviction that threatens yours. Nothing. There is no such thing as someone changing your mind with a flip of a switch unless your mind is already fertile ground to be changed on that thing. So if your convictions are really deep, what do you have to worry about? All you’re doing is listening to somebody else. And by the way, in the context of a relationship, you’re listening to someone you love. And we all know how wonderful it feels to be heard by someone we love.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you have advice for folks if they want to have a conversation that they know is going to be hard? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>One big thing is to understand that you don’t need to have hard conversations all at once, and that it’s nice when life flows in through your conversation. So there’s been some research that conversations in the car can be really productive. You’re not looking at each other like a showdown. You’re looking straight ahead. You’re next to each other. Also, if you’re sitting down, I like going to coffee shops and looking for seats that are next to each other but angled 45 degrees toward each other. This is amazing because it allows you to look at your partner and also look away to take a break. This helps calm your nervous system to get enough fuel for some of those hard moments. And then finally, you don’t have to have it out all at once. Come back to it later. Let what they said sit in your mind and let yourself process that. It’s incredible what that does. Sometimes if we try to do it all in one shot, we’ve got so many emotions that they run away with us. Let the pressure valve do its work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is staying curious in any way, shape, or form letting go of protecting, say, another group? I can imagine someone being convicted about a social justice issue or racial equality and that curiosity feels like they’re abandoning that group. Staying curious and being in conversation with someone who they see is against protecting that group could feel like that curiosity is dangerous.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>If you have a connection to someone who believes something you think is harmful, you have an opportunity because if it’s not you who talks to them and potentially helps them see things a different way, then who? Who’s going to do it? You have the relationship, you have the trust, you have opportunity. So I would actually flip that on its head. I think it is more dangerous not to be curious and not to engage someone who holds an idea you find to be harmful. There is so much harm in isolating ourselves into different communities that can’t talk to each other. That’s what’s ultimately the most harmful because if we’re not talking, we’re not persuading, we’re not reframing, we are not seeing things a different way. We’re just going to keep seeing things the way we like. And if we’re not listened to and can’t engage with people who are close to us and disagree with us, then we’re just going to continue to be heard by people who agree with us, which research shows radicalizes our opinions and makes us think that the whole world ought to believe what we believe. We all become more intolerant of different opinions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Research does show that we tend to exaggerate how extreme people on the other side actually are. Why do you think we have that tendency? Why do we do that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>I like to say that whoever is underrepresented in your life will be overrepresented in your imagination. There is fear that has to do with this and stories that we hear in a very polarized media environment. A lot of the loudest voices and the most extreme stories are the ones that get told. So of course they take up a lot of space in our heads. Meanwhile, a lot of the conversations across divides that we witness on the news and in other places are high-octane showdowns meant to score points. You’ve probably seen the research too about how one side thinks the other is immoral and more vicious and crazy, stupid and evil. It’s completely unsurprising to me, given how we are trapped in this vicious cycle, that we are judging each other more while we’re engaging each other less. The research into the misperceptions, the perception gaps, the exaggerations is profound. Where are we getting our information? If we’re getting our information about people who disagree with us, only secondhand, there’s a good chance it’s a funhouse mirror over there. You have to make some space in your life to ask, “What am I missing?” It’s pretty tough to live so scared of everybody. It’s not fun. It’s not helping us. And it’s certainly not changing the world for the better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You’ve interviewed a married couple, one is a committed liberal, one is committed conservative. What did you learn from them?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>This is Rick and Barbara. Rick is Republican, and Barbara is Democrat. In 2020, they went through a period where they could not talk to each other at all. Rick was going to vote for Trump. Barbara was just beside herself. It was too activating; it was too hard to be in the same room and have these conversations about these things that mattered so much to them. But they found another way. They wrote long letters to each other about how they felt and what was concerning them. That got them through that period, which I think was so cool. So they agreed that they would ask each other questions about what they believed. After a while, Barbara noticed that she was asking Rick a lot of questions, but Rick was not asking her a lot of questions. So, she confronted him and said, “Rick, what’s going on?” And Rick said, “Well, I already know why you believe what you believe.” She said, “Oh really? Prove it.” So they named an issue, and Rick goes, “Well, you believe that probably because of this and this and this.” And Barbara goes, “That’s right.” And then they went to the next issue. “Well, you believe it because of this.” And Barbara says, “That’s right!” They did this over and over again. The common reason turned out to mostly apply to Barbara, but Barbara said, “Rick, we’re married. I need you to hear those reasons from me. I need you to hear my personal reasons. Not the general trend or statistic. Can you please still ask me?” You still have to get it from each other. It’s these conversations that are the necessary piece. You need to be fully participating in those conversations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If folks are not in a marriage, but they’re just dating, do you think people should filter for politics in this moment because things are so divided?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>I consider myself a curious person. I like the world to get bigger and not smaller, at least in some areas of my life. So the question is, do you want that too? Because it can make you grow. The contrast is a beautiful thing at a time when so many people are running away and avoiding friction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And you might be compatible in many other ways, even if you’re not politically compatible. Running up to the midterms, it’s going to get hot. Do you have any advice for folks on how to navigate relationships with their friends, lover, or family that are on the other side of the aisle?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>If you are surprised by something they say, then take that as an invitation. You already have the relationship. And then instead of, “Whoa, really? That’s terrible, that sucks.” Say, “Whoa, really? Tell me more about that. How’d you come to that?” How did you come to believe what you believe is the most powerful question you can ask? Not, why do you believe what you believe? Why do you believe what you believe puts people on trial. How did you come to believe what you believe — asks people to take you on a tour. Create and generate the kind of understanding that could be a countercultural thing against the partisan messaging, sloganeering, exaggerating, manipulating that happens every campaign season in this country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>May we all get a little more curious in the next month or so. Thank you so much, Mónica. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Mónica Guzmán is a journalist and host of the podcast, “A Braver Way.” Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear what you think. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Politics isn’t just pulling the country apart — it’s unsettling our most intimate relationships. Nearly half of Americans say they wouldn’t date someone who doesn’t share their political views. But what happens if you’re already in love, and politics becomes a fault line in your relationship? Can love make space for views you find impossible to accept?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Politics isn’t just pulling the country apart — it’s unsettling our most intimate relationships. Nearly half of Americans say they wouldn’t date someone who doesn’t share their political views. But what happens if you’re already in love, and politics becomes a fault line in your relationship? Can love make space for views you find impossible to accept?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“If you have a connection to someone who believes something you think is harmful, you have an opportunity,” said Mónica Guzmán, host of the podcast “A Braver Way.” “Because if it’s not you who talks to that person, and potentially helps them see things a different way, then who’s going to do it?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“If you have a connection to someone who believes something you think is harmful, you have an opportunity,” said Mónica Guzmán, host of the podcast “A Braver Way.” “Because if it’s not you who talks to that person, and potentially helps them see things a different way, then who’s going to do it?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’ll talk to Guzmán about how to stay curious even when you hate your lover’s politics — and how to coexist peacefully without surrendering your own convictions\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’ll talk to Guzmán about how to stay curious even when you hate your lover’s politics — and how to coexist peacefully without surrendering your own convictions\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán,\u003c/strong> host, “\u003ca href=\"https://braverangels.org/abraverway/\">A Braver Way\u003c/a>” podcast; author, “I Never Thought of It That Way: How to Have Fearlessly Curious Conversations in Dangerously Divided Times”\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Polarization is present in your own family. Your parents are enthusiastic Trump supporters. You are a liberal journalist from Seattle who voted for Joe Biden. Do you all avoid politics? Or how do you navigate those conversations?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Earlier on, it was a bit awkward. We didn’t know how to pick it up, but we’re a really unfiltered family. So as soon as we became citizens, because we’re Mexican immigrants, back in the year 2000, it became clear my parents were going to the right and me and my brother were going to the left. The volume at restaurants, when Glenn Beck or Rachel Maddow came up, it just went up. We would just fill the car, front seat versus back seat. But it got really tense after the 2016 election. That’s when we wondered: is the heat from the friction between our perspectives going to burn something, or is it going to cook something? The lessons we learned, trying to keep things to a simmer, going through rupture and repair cycles, trying to be honest with each other even while we let the other person be honest with us, boy, that was hard, but it taught us a lot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Earlier on, it was a bit awkward. We didn’t know how to pick it up, but we’re a really unfiltered family. So as soon as we became citizens, because we’re Mexican immigrants, back in the year 2000, it became clear my parents were going to the right and me and my brother were going to the left. The volume at restaurants, when Glenn Beck or Rachel Maddow came up, it just went up. We would just fill the car, front seat versus back seat. But it got really tense after the 2016 election. That’s when we wondered: is the heat from the friction between our perspectives going to burn something, or is it going to cook something? The lessons we learned, trying to keep things to a simmer, going through rupture and repair cycles, trying to be honest with each other even while we let the other person be honest with us, boy, that was hard, but it taught us a lot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you try to avoid certain topics or do you find that you can find common ground?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you try to avoid certain topics or do you find that you can find common ground?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>These days we talk about it all. There really is not much that we’re not able to discuss. To give you an example, my mother was a pro-life activist who went to the march on Washington, and I am decidedly pro-choice. So, the conversations would often include tears, her not believing that her own daughter could think these things. But we’re also able to have the most constructive conversations on abortion. The common ground we found is lots of people on both sides of this issue want fewer unwanted pregnancies. Okay, what can we do as a culture and as a society? You can get to some pretty constructive, incredible nuances of these issues and understand that both of us care deeply about what’s going on in different ways.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>These days we talk about it all. There really is not much that we’re not able to discuss. To give you an example, my mother was a pro-life activist who went to the march on Washington, and I am decidedly pro-choice. So, the conversations would often include tears, her not believing that her own daughter could think these things. But we’re also able to have the most constructive conversations on abortion. The common ground we found is lots of people on both sides of this issue want fewer unwanted pregnancies. Okay, what can we do as a culture and as a society? You can get to some pretty constructive, incredible nuances of these issues and understand that both of us care deeply about what’s going on in different ways.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I imagine you’re not living with your parents anymore. You’re not with them 24 hours a day, like you may be with a partner. So, do you think it’s different for those who are navigating this inside a romantic relationship?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Absolutely, when you are living with them all the time, everything changes. I’ve heard from couples where one of them comes into the room, and they’re watching Fox News, or they’re watching MSNBC, you’re already triggered by something. And then different partners will have different ideas about whether or not to talk about politics. The problem is if politics is deeply meaningful to one or both partners, not talking about politics is not talking about me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Absolutely, when you are living with them all the time, everything changes. I’ve heard from couples where one of them comes into the room, and they’re watching Fox News, or they’re watching MSNBC, you’re already triggered by something. And then different partners will have different ideas about whether or not to talk about politics. The problem is if politics is deeply meaningful to one or both partners, not talking about politics is not talking about me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What is the goal of those conversations? Are you trying to sway someone who has a deeply different view? Is that even possible in this moment? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What is the goal of those conversations? Are you trying to sway someone who has a deeply different view? Is that even possible in this moment? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>In a committed romantic relationship, you want to stay connected. You want to love and support your partner. So the goal has to include understanding. The good thing about being in a relationship is you’ve already built up enough trust to be able to be honest about how you feel. A difference in ideas can be an amazing opportunity to strengthen your connection. But it’s also a big challenge because it’s difficult to stay curious when the other person believes something you find obscene, that you find wild. And because of your relationship, your expectations get in the way of that goal of understanding to maintain connection. You’re going to say, “How could my own husband, how could my own wife, how could my own partner believe something like this?” That’s all going to make you want to run away from a conversation that could be really fascinating if you go ahead and have it. It’s through those clashes and diverse opinions within the trust of a relationship that you can learn so much about them and so much about you. One of the most productive questions that you ask across a divide, especially if it’s a values-based difference, is not, “Why don’t you care about this thing that I care about?” But rather, “What do you care about more?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>In a committed romantic relationship, you want to stay connected. You want to love and support your partner. So the goal has to include understanding. The good thing about being in a relationship is you’ve already built up enough trust to be able to be honest about how you feel. A difference in ideas can be an amazing opportunity to strengthen your connection. But it’s also a big challenge because it’s difficult to stay curious when the other person believes something you find obscene, that you find wild. And because of your relationship, your expectations get in the way of that goal of understanding to maintain connection. You’re going to say, “How could my own husband, how could my own wife, how could my own partner believe something like this?” That’s all going to make you want to run away from a conversation that could be really fascinating if you go ahead and have it. It’s through those clashes and diverse opinions within the trust of a relationship that you can learn so much about them and so much about you. One of the most productive questions that you ask across a divide, especially if it’s a values-based difference, is not, “Why don’t you care about this thing that I care about?” But rather, “What do you care about more?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I know a couple who’s navigating this. The guy is very right, and the woman is quite left. One thing that he says is so challenging is that their social media feeds are giving them very different facts. How does a couple have a responsible, empathetic conversation if they don’t share the same information on the topic? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I know a couple who’s navigating this. The guy is very right, and the woman is quite left. One thing that he says is so challenging is that their social media feeds are giving them very different facts. How does a couple have a responsible, empathetic conversation if they don’t share the same information on the topic? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>The way we do that is we follow each other’s threads without judgment. I know how difficult that can be because if you think that your partner is trusting sources that are bogus, all you want to do is tell them they’re wrong, the source is wrong, and that you just can’t have the conversation unless they agree with you. You love your partner, and your partner trusts this source. Why? Get curious about that and let that curiosity become a nonjudgmental accompaniment, and ask your partner, “Can you walk me through the source you see? Can you show me the newsletter?” And then listen and watch and ask questions that allow them to be open with you. Do not criticize the source until you fully understand what it’s all about. And then afterward say, “Can I walk you through my source and tell you why I trust them?” So much about the sources that we believe is about what they call up in us. Some sources reflect people’s concerns better than others. I think that’s the key. So even if somebody who disagrees is like, “There’s nothing factual there. There’s a lot of sensationalism.” And often that’s true. It’s still worth noting when a source tugs on something that matters to somebody, and it makes them gravitate to those voices. We need to understand that and pick up on that. Once you do that and people feel heard across that divide, then you can start a more persuasive conversation. I have received your source nonjudgmentally. Maybe you’ve received mine. Now can we talk about verification? Can we talk about substance? Can we talk about why I don’t trust your source? That conversation is better had after you understand why they trust theirs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>The way we do that is we follow each other’s threads without judgment. I know how difficult that can be because if you think that your partner is trusting sources that are bogus, all you want to do is tell them they’re wrong, the source is wrong, and that you just can’t have the conversation unless they agree with you. You love your partner, and your partner trusts this source. Why? Get curious about that and let that curiosity become a nonjudgmental accompaniment, and ask your partner, “Can you walk me through the source you see? Can you show me the newsletter?” And then listen and watch and ask questions that allow them to be open with you. Do not criticize the source until you fully understand what it’s all about. And then afterward say, “Can I walk you through my source and tell you why I trust them?” So much about the sources that we believe is about what they call up in us. Some sources reflect people’s concerns better than others. I think that’s the key. So even if somebody who disagrees is like, “There’s nothing factual there. There’s a lot of sensationalism.” And often that’s true. It’s still worth noting when a source tugs on something that matters to somebody, and it makes them gravitate to those voices. We need to understand that and pick up on that. Once you do that and people feel heard across that divide, then you can start a more persuasive conversation. I have received your source nonjudgmentally. Maybe you’ve received mine. Now can we talk about verification? Can we talk about substance? Can we talk about why I don’t trust your source? That conversation is better had after you understand why they trust theirs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If I am highly convinced that I know something about this issue and I’m not going to change, is it worth having a conversation about that issue with my partner?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If I am highly convinced that I know something about this issue and I’m not going to change, is it worth having a conversation about that issue with my partner?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>The best way for me to be heard on my convictions is to demonstrate to the other person that I can hear theirs. The trick is not to treat it as a strategy. I’m going to fake listen to them nonjudgmentally until they give me the time of day, and then I’m going to steamroll them and tell them how wrong they are. No. These conversations can be transformative. You are convicted; that’s great. It’s tough to be curious. It’s tough to be open, but again, how can anybody give you that gift if you can’t give it to anybody else? Also, there is nothing about receiving somebody’s opposing conviction that threatens yours. Nothing. There is no such thing as someone changing your mind with a flip of a switch unless your mind is already fertile ground to be changed on that thing. So if your convictions are really deep, what do you have to worry about? All you’re doing is listening to somebody else. And by the way, in the context of a relationship, you’re listening to someone you love. And we all know how wonderful it feels to be heard by someone we love.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>The best way for me to be heard on my convictions is to demonstrate to the other person that I can hear theirs. The trick is not to treat it as a strategy. I’m going to fake listen to them nonjudgmentally until they give me the time of day, and then I’m going to steamroll them and tell them how wrong they are. No. These conversations can be transformative. You are convicted; that’s great. It’s tough to be curious. It’s tough to be open, but again, how can anybody give you that gift if you can’t give it to anybody else? Also, there is nothing about receiving somebody’s opposing conviction that threatens yours. Nothing. There is no such thing as someone changing your mind with a flip of a switch unless your mind is already fertile ground to be changed on that thing. So if your convictions are really deep, what do you have to worry about? All you’re doing is listening to somebody else. And by the way, in the context of a relationship, you’re listening to someone you love. And we all know how wonderful it feels to be heard by someone we love.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you have advice for folks if they want to have a conversation that they know is going to be hard? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>One big thing is to understand that you don’t need to have hard conversations all at once, and that it’s nice when life flows in through your conversation. So there’s been some research that conversations in the car can be really productive. You’re not looking at each other like a showdown. You’re looking straight ahead. You’re next to each other. Also, if you’re sitting down, I like going to coffee shops and looking for seats that are next to each other but angled 45 degrees toward each other. This is amazing because it allows you to look at your partner and also look away to take a break. This helps calm your nervous system to get enough fuel for some of those hard moments. And then finally, you don’t have to have it out all at once. Come back to it later. Let what they said sit in your mind and let yourself process that. It’s incredible what that does. Sometimes if we try to do it all in one shot, we’ve got so many emotions that they run away with us. Let the pressure valve do its work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>One big thing is to understand that you don’t need to have hard conversations all at once, and that it’s nice when life flows in through your conversation. So there’s been some research that conversations in the car can be really productive. You’re not looking at each other like a showdown. You’re looking straight ahead. You’re next to each other. Also, if you’re sitting down, I like going to coffee shops and looking for seats that are next to each other but angled 45 degrees toward each other. This is amazing because it allows you to look at your partner and also look away to take a break. This helps calm your nervous system to get enough fuel for some of those hard moments. And then finally, you don’t have to have it out all at once. Come back to it later. Let what they said sit in your mind and let yourself process that. It’s incredible what that does. Sometimes if we try to do it all in one shot, we’ve got so many emotions that they run away with us. Let the pressure valve do its work.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is staying curious in any way, shape, or form letting go of protecting, say, another group? I can imagine someone being convicted about a social justice issue or racial equality and that curiosity feels like they’re abandoning that group. Staying curious and being in conversation with someone who they see is against protecting that group could feel like that curiosity is dangerous.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is staying curious in any way, shape, or form letting go of protecting, say, another group? I can imagine someone being convicted about a social justice issue or racial equality and that curiosity feels like they’re abandoning that group. Staying curious and being in conversation with someone who they see is against protecting that group could feel like that curiosity is dangerous.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>If you have a connection to someone who believes something you think is harmful, you have an opportunity because if it’s not you who talks to them and potentially helps them see things a different way, then who? Who’s going to do it? You have the relationship, you have the trust, you have opportunity. So I would actually flip that on its head. I think it is more dangerous not to be curious and not to engage someone who holds an idea you find to be harmful. There is so much harm in isolating ourselves into different communities that can’t talk to each other. That’s what’s ultimately the most harmful because if we’re not talking, we’re not persuading, we’re not reframing, we are not seeing things a different way. We’re just going to keep seeing things the way we like. And if we’re not listened to and can’t engage with people who are close to us and disagree with us, then we’re just going to continue to be heard by people who agree with us, which research shows radicalizes our opinions and makes us think that the whole world ought to believe what we believe. We all become more intolerant of different opinions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>If you have a connection to someone who believes something you think is harmful, you have an opportunity because if it’s not you who talks to them and potentially helps them see things a different way, then who? Who’s going to do it? You have the relationship, you have the trust, you have opportunity. So I would actually flip that on its head. I think it is more dangerous not to be curious and not to engage someone who holds an idea you find to be harmful. There is so much harm in isolating ourselves into different communities that can’t talk to each other. That’s what’s ultimately the most harmful because if we’re not talking, we’re not persuading, we’re not reframing, we are not seeing things a different way. We’re just going to keep seeing things the way we like. And if we’re not listened to and can’t engage with people who are close to us and disagree with us, then we’re just going to continue to be heard by people who agree with us, which research shows radicalizes our opinions and makes us think that the whole world ought to believe what we believe. We all become more intolerant of different opinions.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Research does show that we tend to exaggerate how extreme people on the other side actually are. Why do you think we have that tendency? Why do we do that?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Research does show that we tend to exaggerate how extreme people on the other side actually are. Why do you think we have that tendency? Why do we do that?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>I like to say that whoever is underrepresented in your life will be overrepresented in your imagination. There is fear that has to do with this and stories that we hear in a very polarized media environment. A lot of the loudest voices and the most extreme stories are the ones that get told. So of course they take up a lot of space in our heads. Meanwhile, a lot of the conversations across divides that we witness on the news and in other places are high-octane showdowns meant to score points. You’ve probably seen the research too about how one side thinks the other is immoral and more vicious and crazy, stupid and evil. It’s completely unsurprising to me, given how we are trapped in this vicious cycle, that we are judging each other more while we’re engaging each other less. The research into the misperceptions, the perception gaps, the exaggerations is profound. Where are we getting our information? If we’re getting our information about people who disagree with us, only secondhand, there’s a good chance it’s a funhouse mirror over there. You have to make some space in your life to ask, “What am I missing?” It’s pretty tough to live so scared of everybody. It’s not fun. It’s not helping us. And it’s certainly not changing the world for the better.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>I like to say that whoever is underrepresented in your life will be overrepresented in your imagination. There is fear that has to do with this and stories that we hear in a very polarized media environment. A lot of the loudest voices and the most extreme stories are the ones that get told. So of course they take up a lot of space in our heads. Meanwhile, a lot of the conversations across divides that we witness on the news and in other places are high-octane showdowns meant to score points. You’ve probably seen the research too about how one side thinks the other is immoral and more vicious and crazy, stupid and evil. It’s completely unsurprising to me, given how we are trapped in this vicious cycle, that we are judging each other more while we’re engaging each other less. The research into the misperceptions, the perception gaps, the exaggerations is profound. Where are we getting our information? If we’re getting our information about people who disagree with us, only secondhand, there’s a good chance it’s a funhouse mirror over there. You have to make some space in your life to ask, “What am I missing?” It’s pretty tough to live so scared of everybody. It’s not fun. It’s not helping us. And it’s certainly not changing the world for the better.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You’ve interviewed a married couple, one is a committed liberal, one is committed conservative. What did you learn from them?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>This is Rick and Barbara. Rick is Republican, and Barbara is Democrat. In 2020, they went through a period where they could not talk to each other at all. Rick was going to vote for Trump. Barbara was just beside herself. It was too activating; it was too hard to be in the same room and have these conversations about these things that mattered so much to them. But they found another way. They wrote long letters to each other about how they felt and what was concerning them. That got them through that period, which I think was so cool. So they agreed that they would ask each other questions about what they believed. After a while, Barbara noticed that she was asking Rick a lot of questions, but Rick was not asking her a lot of questions. So, she confronted him and said, “Rick, what’s going on?” And Rick said, “Well, I already know why you believe what you believe.” She said, “Oh really? Prove it.” So they named an issue, and Rick goes, “Well, you believe that probably because of this and this and this.” And Barbara goes, “That’s right.” And then they went to the next issue. “Well, you believe it because of this.” And Barbara says, “That’s right!” They did this over and over again. The common reason turned out to mostly apply to Barbara, but Barbara said, “Rick, we’re married. I need you to hear those reasons from me. I need you to hear my personal reasons. Not the general trend or statistic. Can you please still ask me?” You still have to get it from each other. It’s these conversations that are the necessary piece. You need to be fully participating in those conversations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>This is Rick and Barbara. Rick is Republican, and Barbara is Democrat. In 2020, they went through a period where they could not talk to each other at all. Rick was going to vote for Trump. Barbara was just beside herself. It was too activating; it was too hard to be in the same room and have these conversations about these things that mattered so much to them. But they found another way. They wrote long letters to each other about how they felt and what was concerning them. That got them through that period, which I think was so cool. So they agreed that they would ask each other questions about what they believed. After a while, Barbara noticed that she was asking Rick a lot of questions, but Rick was not asking her a lot of questions. So, she confronted him and said, “Rick, what’s going on?” And Rick said, “Well, I already know why you believe what you believe.” She said, “Oh really? Prove it.” So they named an issue, and Rick goes, “Well, you believe that probably because of this and this and this.” And Barbara goes, “That’s right.” And then they went to the next issue. “Well, you believe it because of this.” And Barbara says, “That’s right!” They did this over and over again. The common reason turned out to mostly apply to Barbara, but Barbara said, “Rick, we’re married. I need you to hear those reasons from me. I need you to hear my personal reasons. Not the general trend or statistic. Can you please still ask me?” You still have to get it from each other. It’s these conversations that are the necessary piece. You need to be fully participating in those conversations.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If folks are not in a marriage, but they’re just dating, do you think people should filter for politics in this moment because things are so divided?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>I consider myself a curious person. I like the world to get bigger and not smaller, at least in some areas of my life. So the question is, do you want that too? Because it can make you grow. The contrast is a beautiful thing at a time when so many people are running away and avoiding friction.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>I consider myself a curious person. I like the world to get bigger and not smaller, at least in some areas of my life. So the question is, do you want that too? Because it can make you grow. The contrast is a beautiful thing at a time when so many people are running away and avoiding friction.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And you might be compatible in many other ways, even if you’re not politically compatible. Running up to the midterms, it’s going to get hot. Do you have any advice for folks on how to navigate relationships with their friends, lover, or family that are on the other side of the aisle?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And you might be compatible in many other ways, even if you’re not politically compatible. Running up to the midterms, it’s going to get hot. Do you have any advice for folks on how to navigate relationships with their friends, lover, or family that are on the other side of the aisle?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>If you are surprised by something they say, then take that as an invitation. You already have the relationship. And then instead of, “Whoa, really? That’s terrible, that sucks.” Say, “Whoa, really? Tell me more about that. How’d you come to that?” How did you come to believe what you believe is the most powerful question you can ask? Not, why do you believe what you believe? Why do you believe what you believe puts people on trial. How did you come to believe what you believe — asks people to take you on a tour. Create and generate the kind of understanding that could be a countercultural thing against the partisan messaging, sloganeering, exaggerating, manipulating that happens every campaign season in this country.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>If you are surprised by something they say, then take that as an invitation. You already have the relationship. And then instead of, “Whoa, really? That’s terrible, that sucks.” Say, “Whoa, really? Tell me more about that. How’d you come to that?” How did you come to believe what you believe is the most powerful question you can ask? Not, why do you believe what you believe? Why do you believe what you believe puts people on trial. How did you come to believe what you believe — asks people to take you on a tour. Create and generate the kind of understanding that could be a countercultural thing against the partisan messaging, sloganeering, exaggerating, manipulating that happens every campaign season in this country.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>May we all get a little more curious in the next month or so. Thank you so much, Mónica. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>May we all get a little more curious in the next month or so. Thank you so much, Mónica. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Mónica Guzmán is a journalist and host of the podcast, “A Braver Way.” Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear what you think. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Mónica Guzmán is a journalist and host of the podcast, “A Braver Way.” Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear what you think. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Mónica Guzmán grew up in a politically divided family. Now, the author and podcaster offers a roadmap for talking to someone you love when their politics are unnerving.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Politics isn’t just pulling the country apart — it’s unsettling our most intimate relationships. Nearly half of Americans say they wouldn’t date someone who doesn’t share their political views. But what happens if you’re already in love, and politics becomes a fault line in your relationship? Can love make space for views you find impossible to accept?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If you have a connection to someone who believes something you think is harmful, you have an opportunity,” said Mónica Guzmán, host of the podcast “A Braver Way.” “Because if it’s not you who talks to that person, and potentially helps them see things a different way, then who’s going to do it?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll talk to Guzmán about how to stay curious even when you hate your lover’s politics — and how to coexist peacefully without surrendering your own convictions\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán,\u003c/strong> host, “\u003ca href=\"https://braverangels.org/abraverway/\">A Braver Way\u003c/a>” podcast; author, “I Never Thought of It That Way: How to Have Fearlessly Curious Conversations in Dangerously Divided Times”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Polarization is present in your own family. Your parents are enthusiastic Trump supporters. You are a liberal journalist from Seattle who voted for Joe Biden. Do you all avoid politics? Or how do you navigate those conversations?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Earlier on, it was a bit awkward. We didn’t know how to pick it up, but we’re a really unfiltered family. So as soon as we became citizens, because we’re Mexican immigrants, back in the year 2000, it became clear my parents were going to the right and me and my brother were going to the left. The volume at restaurants, when Glenn Beck or Rachel Maddow came up, it just went up. We would just fill the car, front seat versus back seat. But it got really tense after the 2016 election. That’s when we wondered: is the heat from the friction between our perspectives going to burn something, or is it going to cook something? The lessons we learned, trying to keep things to a simmer, going through rupture and repair cycles, trying to be honest with each other even while we let the other person be honest with us, boy, that was hard, but it taught us a lot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you try to avoid certain topics or do you find that you can find common ground?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>These days we talk about it all. There really is not much that we’re not able to discuss. To give you an example, my mother was a pro-life activist who went to the march on Washington, and I am decidedly pro-choice. So, the conversations would often include tears, her not believing that her own daughter could think these things. But we’re also able to have the most constructive conversations on abortion. The common ground we found is lots of people on both sides of this issue want fewer unwanted pregnancies. Okay, what can we do as a culture and as a society? You can get to some pretty constructive, incredible nuances of these issues and understand that both of us care deeply about what’s going on in different ways.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I imagine you’re not living with your parents anymore. You’re not with them 24 hours a day, like you may be with a partner. So, do you think it’s different for those who are navigating this inside a romantic relationship?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Absolutely, when you are living with them all the time, everything changes. I’ve heard from couples where one of them comes into the room, and they’re watching Fox News, or they’re watching MSNBC, you’re already triggered by something. And then different partners will have different ideas about whether or not to talk about politics. The problem is if politics is deeply meaningful to one or both partners, not talking about politics is not talking about me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What is the goal of those conversations? Are you trying to sway someone who has a deeply different view? Is that even possible in this moment? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>In a committed romantic relationship, you want to stay connected. You want to love and support your partner. So the goal has to include understanding. The good thing about being in a relationship is you’ve already built up enough trust to be able to be honest about how you feel. A difference in ideas can be an amazing opportunity to strengthen your connection. But it’s also a big challenge because it’s difficult to stay curious when the other person believes something you find obscene, that you find wild. And because of your relationship, your expectations get in the way of that goal of understanding to maintain connection. You’re going to say, “How could my own husband, how could my own wife, how could my own partner believe something like this?” That’s all going to make you want to run away from a conversation that could be really fascinating if you go ahead and have it. It’s through those clashes and diverse opinions within the trust of a relationship that you can learn so much about them and so much about you. One of the most productive questions that you ask across a divide, especially if it’s a values-based difference, is not, “Why don’t you care about this thing that I care about?” But rather, “What do you care about more?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I know a couple who’s navigating this. The guy is very right, and the woman is quite left. One thing that he says is so challenging is that their social media feeds are giving them very different facts. How does a couple have a responsible, empathetic conversation if they don’t share the same information on the topic? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>The way we do that is we follow each other’s threads without judgment. I know how difficult that can be because if you think that your partner is trusting sources that are bogus, all you want to do is tell them they’re wrong, the source is wrong, and that you just can’t have the conversation unless they agree with you. You love your partner, and your partner trusts this source. Why? Get curious about that and let that curiosity become a nonjudgmental accompaniment, and ask your partner, “Can you walk me through the source you see? Can you show me the newsletter?” And then listen and watch and ask questions that allow them to be open with you. Do not criticize the source until you fully understand what it’s all about. And then afterward say, “Can I walk you through my source and tell you why I trust them?” So much about the sources that we believe is about what they call up in us. Some sources reflect people’s concerns better than others. I think that’s the key. So even if somebody who disagrees is like, “There’s nothing factual there. There’s a lot of sensationalism.” And often that’s true. It’s still worth noting when a source tugs on something that matters to somebody, and it makes them gravitate to those voices. We need to understand that and pick up on that. Once you do that and people feel heard across that divide, then you can start a more persuasive conversation. I have received your source nonjudgmentally. Maybe you’ve received mine. Now can we talk about verification? Can we talk about substance? Can we talk about why I don’t trust your source? That conversation is better had after you understand why they trust theirs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If I am highly convinced that I know something about this issue and I’m not going to change, is it worth having a conversation about that issue with my partner?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>The best way for me to be heard on my convictions is to demonstrate to the other person that I can hear theirs. The trick is not to treat it as a strategy. I’m going to fake listen to them nonjudgmentally until they give me the time of day, and then I’m going to steamroll them and tell them how wrong they are. No. These conversations can be transformative. You are convicted; that’s great. It’s tough to be curious. It’s tough to be open, but again, how can anybody give you that gift if you can’t give it to anybody else? Also, there is nothing about receiving somebody’s opposing conviction that threatens yours. Nothing. There is no such thing as someone changing your mind with a flip of a switch unless your mind is already fertile ground to be changed on that thing. So if your convictions are really deep, what do you have to worry about? All you’re doing is listening to somebody else. And by the way, in the context of a relationship, you’re listening to someone you love. And we all know how wonderful it feels to be heard by someone we love.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you have advice for folks if they want to have a conversation that they know is going to be hard? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>One big thing is to understand that you don’t need to have hard conversations all at once, and that it’s nice when life flows in through your conversation. So there’s been some research that conversations in the car can be really productive. You’re not looking at each other like a showdown. You’re looking straight ahead. You’re next to each other. Also, if you’re sitting down, I like going to coffee shops and looking for seats that are next to each other but angled 45 degrees toward each other. This is amazing because it allows you to look at your partner and also look away to take a break. This helps calm your nervous system to get enough fuel for some of those hard moments. And then finally, you don’t have to have it out all at once. Come back to it later. Let what they said sit in your mind and let yourself process that. It’s incredible what that does. Sometimes if we try to do it all in one shot, we’ve got so many emotions that they run away with us. Let the pressure valve do its work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is staying curious in any way, shape, or form letting go of protecting, say, another group? I can imagine someone being convicted about a social justice issue or racial equality and that curiosity feels like they’re abandoning that group. Staying curious and being in conversation with someone who they see is against protecting that group could feel like that curiosity is dangerous.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>If you have a connection to someone who believes something you think is harmful, you have an opportunity because if it’s not you who talks to them and potentially helps them see things a different way, then who? Who’s going to do it? You have the relationship, you have the trust, you have opportunity. So I would actually flip that on its head. I think it is more dangerous not to be curious and not to engage someone who holds an idea you find to be harmful. There is so much harm in isolating ourselves into different communities that can’t talk to each other. That’s what’s ultimately the most harmful because if we’re not talking, we’re not persuading, we’re not reframing, we are not seeing things a different way. We’re just going to keep seeing things the way we like. And if we’re not listened to and can’t engage with people who are close to us and disagree with us, then we’re just going to continue to be heard by people who agree with us, which research shows radicalizes our opinions and makes us think that the whole world ought to believe what we believe. We all become more intolerant of different opinions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Research does show that we tend to exaggerate how extreme people on the other side actually are. Why do you think we have that tendency? Why do we do that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>I like to say that whoever is underrepresented in your life will be overrepresented in your imagination. There is fear that has to do with this and stories that we hear in a very polarized media environment. A lot of the loudest voices and the most extreme stories are the ones that get told. So of course they take up a lot of space in our heads. Meanwhile, a lot of the conversations across divides that we witness on the news and in other places are high-octane showdowns meant to score points. You’ve probably seen the research too about how one side thinks the other is immoral and more vicious and crazy, stupid and evil. It’s completely unsurprising to me, given how we are trapped in this vicious cycle, that we are judging each other more while we’re engaging each other less. The research into the misperceptions, the perception gaps, the exaggerations is profound. Where are we getting our information? If we’re getting our information about people who disagree with us, only secondhand, there’s a good chance it’s a funhouse mirror over there. You have to make some space in your life to ask, “What am I missing?” It’s pretty tough to live so scared of everybody. It’s not fun. It’s not helping us. And it’s certainly not changing the world for the better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You’ve interviewed a married couple, one is a committed liberal, one is committed conservative. What did you learn from them?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>This is Rick and Barbara. Rick is Republican, and Barbara is Democrat. In 2020, they went through a period where they could not talk to each other at all. Rick was going to vote for Trump. Barbara was just beside herself. It was too activating; it was too hard to be in the same room and have these conversations about these things that mattered so much to them. But they found another way. They wrote long letters to each other about how they felt and what was concerning them. That got them through that period, which I think was so cool. So they agreed that they would ask each other questions about what they believed. After a while, Barbara noticed that she was asking Rick a lot of questions, but Rick was not asking her a lot of questions. So, she confronted him and said, “Rick, what’s going on?” And Rick said, “Well, I already know why you believe what you believe.” She said, “Oh really? Prove it.” So they named an issue, and Rick goes, “Well, you believe that probably because of this and this and this.” And Barbara goes, “That’s right.” And then they went to the next issue. “Well, you believe it because of this.” And Barbara says, “That’s right!” They did this over and over again. The common reason turned out to mostly apply to Barbara, but Barbara said, “Rick, we’re married. I need you to hear those reasons from me. I need you to hear my personal reasons. Not the general trend or statistic. Can you please still ask me?” You still have to get it from each other. It’s these conversations that are the necessary piece. You need to be fully participating in those conversations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If folks are not in a marriage, but they’re just dating, do you think people should filter for politics in this moment because things are so divided?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>I consider myself a curious person. I like the world to get bigger and not smaller, at least in some areas of my life. So the question is, do you want that too? Because it can make you grow. The contrast is a beautiful thing at a time when so many people are running away and avoiding friction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And you might be compatible in many other ways, even if you’re not politically compatible. Running up to the midterms, it’s going to get hot. Do you have any advice for folks on how to navigate relationships with their friends, lover, or family that are on the other side of the aisle?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>If you are surprised by something they say, then take that as an invitation. You already have the relationship. And then instead of, “Whoa, really? That’s terrible, that sucks.” Say, “Whoa, really? Tell me more about that. How’d you come to that?” How did you come to believe what you believe is the most powerful question you can ask? Not, why do you believe what you believe? Why do you believe what you believe puts people on trial. How did you come to believe what you believe — asks people to take you on a tour. Create and generate the kind of understanding that could be a countercultural thing against the partisan messaging, sloganeering, exaggerating, manipulating that happens every campaign season in this country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>May we all get a little more curious in the next month or so. Thank you so much, Mónica. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Mónica Guzmán is a journalist and host of the podcast, “A Braver Way.” Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear what you think. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "flu-season-early-2026-bay-area-where-to-find-flu-vaccine-near-me-safe-with-covid-shot",
"title": "Flu Season Has Arrived in the Bay Area Early This Year — Time to Get Your Flu Shot",
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"headTitle": "Flu Season Has Arrived in the Bay Area Early This Year — Time to Get Your Flu Shot | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>As the Bay Area’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12091325/summer-covid-test-2026-wastewater-variants-isolation-contagious-xfg-san-francisco-bay-area-california\">summer COVID-19 wave\u003c/a> finally tapers down, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/flu\">flu \u003c/a>season is here to take its place — and it’s early this year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to data from Stanford University’s WastewaterSCAN project, which monitors viral levels in human sewage, seasonal onset for flu didn’t arrive until November 2025. But this year, the Bay Area has already officially hit the threshold.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Doctors generally recommend that you get your flu vaccine \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines/vaccinations.html\">sometime in October\u003c/a>, so your body has maximum immunity as the flu starts rising. But this year, the early arrival of flu season — and the Bay Area’s first death from flu in San Francisco — has several counties urging residents to get their shot sooner.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s what to know about the Bay Area’s early 2026 flu season and when you should be getting vaccinated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What’s going on with flu this year?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>WastewaterSCAN’s Amanda Bidwell said that this past September, the team detected the presence of influenza in over 90% of samples from the Bay Area wastewater sites they monitored that month. Concentrations of flu in local human sewage were up almost 350% from August to September, Bidwell said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>UCSF’s lab is also diagnosing flu in its patients up to five times as much as it was a month ago, said Dr. Peter Chin-Hong, an infectious disease expert at UCSF, in an email to KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1405\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12028314\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-800x562.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-1020x717.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-160x112.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-1536x1079.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-1920x1349.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A CVS in Huntington Park on Aug. 28, 2024. (Christina House/Los Angeles Times via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On Oct. 1, the San Francisco Department of Public Health announced the city’s first death from flu in a resident. Last winter, San Francisco didn’t see any flu deaths until January.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The early arrival of flu in California “also tracks with the earlier flu activity seen in the UK, Japan, and other countries in the Northern Hemisphere,” Chin-Hong said. But this doesn’t necessarily mean that the flu season will be worse this year, he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The flu shot is updated every year for maximum efficacy against prevalent strains — and “We have well matched vaccines this year,” Chin-Hong said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">If flu season is here early, should I be getting my flu shot sooner too?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The general consensus is: yes. “I will probably get my flu shot on the soonish side,” Chin-Hong said. “Definitely before Halloween, and probably not wait until November.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Marin County’s former public health officer Matt Willis, now at Your Local Epidemiologist California, \u003ca href=\"https://yourlocalepidemiologistca.substack.com/p/early-flu-covid-19-peaks-and-a-record?utm_source=email&redirect=app-store-no-desktop&inbox=true&utm_campaign=email-read-in-app&triedRedirect=true\">wrote in his newsletter\u003c/a> that “Now is the time to get your flu shot, if you haven’t already,” since maximum protection from the vaccine takes around two weeks to build.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Francisco health officials have been \u003ca href=\"https://www.sf.gov/news-san-francisco-department-of-public-health-encourages-vaccination-as-citys-first-influenza-death-is-confirmed\">urging residents to seek out their flu vaccine \u003c/a>since the agency announced the city’s first death from the disease. In a Thursday public advisory, the Santa Clara Public Health Department told residents that “Early flu activity means now is the time to protect your family against fall viruses” — including COVID-19. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The new, updated 2026-27 COVID-19 shots are also now available, and it’s completely safe to get your flu vaccine and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098931/where-can-i-find-new-updated-2026-27-covid-vaccine-near-me-moderna-pfizer-cvs-walgreens-safeway-vaccinations-health-insurance-cost\">your COVID-19 vaccine\u003c/a> at the same time for convenience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Additionally, the public should be aware and cautious of rapidly spreading misinformation that questions the safety and efficacy of widely tested vaccinations that have protected us for years,” a Santa Clara County spokesperson said. “It’s important to get vaccine information from trusted messengers and qualified healthcare professionals, such as your local public health department.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As anyone who’s had the flu can attest, the virus is no joke. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/flu-burden/php/php/data-vis/2025-2026.html\">estimated \u003c/a>that last flu season, there were at least 32 million illnesses nationwide, 390,000 hospitalizations, and 24,000 deaths from the flu. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The flu vaccine reduces your risk of severe illness and hospitalization. The virus can be especially dangerous for kids, and the CDC said that a 2022 study showed flu vaccination reduced children’s risk of severe, life-threatening influenza by 75%.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Where can I find a flu shot this month?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you have health insurance, a flu shot is covered and available without extra cost, as a preventive service from your usual health care provider. It’s also available at most pharmacies (see below).\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can get your flu shot at the same time as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098931/where-can-i-find-new-updated-2026-27-covid-vaccine-near-me-moderna-pfizer-cvs-walgreens-safeway-vaccinations-health-insurance-cost\">your COVID-19 vaccine\u003c/a> — it’s completely safe to do so, and many people do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Common places to find a flu shot appointment, walk-in site or drive-thru flu shot:\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.vaccines.gov/find-vaccines/\">CDC’s Find Flu Vaccines tool\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://mydoctor.kaiserpermanente.org/ncal/cold-and-flu/prevention#/prevention\">Kaiser Permanente flu shots (Northern California)\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cvs.com/immunizations/flu\">CVS flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.walgreens.com/topic/pharmacy/seasonal-flu.jsp?ban=flu_fy21_influenzapage\">Walgreens flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.riteaid.com/pharmacy/scheduler\">Rite Aid flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.costco.com/Pharmacy/adult-immunization-program.html\">Costco Pharmacy flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.albertsons.com/pharmacy/pharmacy-services/immunizations.html\">Albertsons (Safeway) flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Where can I get a flu shot if I don’t have health insurance?\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can get the vaccine free of charge from several Bay Area providers and community clinics if you don’t have insurance. (You can also \u003cem>technically \u003c/em>use these free services even if you do have insurance, but you may consider choosing to reserve these particular resources for those without coverage).\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Your county’s public health department may also be offering flu shots.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Places to get a free or low-cost flu shot in the Bay Area include:\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfcdcp.org/aitc/aitc-regular-prices-low-cost-or-free-vaccines/\">San Francisco Department of Public Health’s AITC clinic\u003c/a> (offers a pay-what-you-can option)\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://cchealth.org/immunization/clinics.php#Uninsured\"> Contra Costa Public Health Immunization Clinic\u003c/a> (flu shots are $15 for adults over 19, but fees may be waived if you’re unable to pay)\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://acphd.org/clinics/\">Alameda County Immunization Clinics\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>As the Bay Area’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12091325/summer-covid-test-2026-wastewater-variants-isolation-contagious-xfg-san-francisco-bay-area-california\">summer COVID-19 wave\u003c/a> finally tapers down, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/flu\">flu \u003c/a>season is here to take its place — and it’s early this year.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>According to data from Stanford University’s WastewaterSCAN project, which monitors viral levels in human sewage, seasonal onset for flu didn’t arrive until November 2025. But this year, the Bay Area has already officially hit the threshold.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>According to data from Stanford University’s WastewaterSCAN project, which monitors viral levels in human sewage, seasonal onset for flu didn’t arrive until November 2025. But this year, the Bay Area has already officially hit the threshold.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Doctors generally recommend that you get your flu vaccine \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines/vaccinations.html\">sometime in October\u003c/a>, so your body has maximum immunity as the flu starts rising. But this year, the early arrival of flu season — and the Bay Area’s first death from flu in San Francisco — has several counties urging residents to get their shot sooner.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Doctors generally recommend that you get your flu vaccine \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines/vaccinations.html\">sometime in October\u003c/a>, so your body has maximum immunity as the flu starts rising. But this year, the early arrival of flu season — and the Bay Area’s first death from flu in San Francisco — has several counties urging residents to get their shot sooner.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Here’s what to know about the Bay Area’s early 2026 flu season and when you should be getting vaccinated.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>WastewaterSCAN’s Amanda Bidwell said that this past September, the team detected the presence of influenza in over 90% of samples from the Bay Area wastewater sites they monitored that month. Concentrations of flu in local human sewage were up almost 350% from August to September, Bidwell said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>WastewaterSCAN’s Amanda Bidwell said that this past September, the team detected the presence of influenza in over 90% of samples from the Bay Area wastewater sites they monitored that month. Concentrations of flu in local human sewage were up almost 350% from August to September, Bidwell said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>UCSF’s lab is also diagnosing flu in its patients up to five times as much as it was a month ago, said Dr. Peter Chin-Hong, an infectious disease expert at UCSF, in an email to KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>UCSF’s lab is also diagnosing flu in its patients up to five times as much as it was a month ago, said Dr. Peter Chin-Hong, an infectious disease expert at UCSF, in an email to KQED.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12028314\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-800x562.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-1020x717.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-160x112.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-1536x1079.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-1920x1349.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A CVS in Huntington Park on Aug. 28, 2024. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Christina House/Los Angeles Times via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12028314\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A CVS in Huntington Park on Aug. 28, 2024. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Christina House/Los Angeles Times via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On Oct. 1, the San Francisco Department of Public Health announced the city’s first death from flu in a resident. Last winter, San Francisco didn’t see any flu deaths until January.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>On Oct. 1, the San Francisco Department of Public Health announced the city’s first death from flu in a resident. Last winter, San Francisco didn’t see any flu deaths until January.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The early arrival of flu in California “also tracks with the earlier flu activity seen in the UK, Japan, and other countries in the Northern Hemisphere,” Chin-Hong said. But this doesn’t necessarily mean that the flu season will be worse this year, he said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The early arrival of flu in California “also tracks with the earlier flu activity seen in the UK, Japan, and other countries in the Northern Hemisphere,” Chin-Hong said. But this doesn’t necessarily mean that the flu season will be worse this year, he said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The flu shot is updated every year for maximum efficacy against prevalent strains — and “We have well matched vaccines this year,” Chin-Hong said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The flu shot is updated every year for maximum efficacy against prevalent strains — and “We have well matched vaccines this year,” Chin-Hong said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "If flu season is here early, should I be getting my flu shot sooner too?",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">If flu season is here early, should I be getting my flu shot sooner too?\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The general consensus is: yes. “I will probably get my flu shot on the soonish side,” Chin-Hong said. “Definitely before Halloween, and probably not wait until November.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The general consensus is: yes. “I will probably get my flu shot on the soonish side,” Chin-Hong said. “Definitely before Halloween, and probably not wait until November.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Marin County’s former public health officer Matt Willis, now at Your Local Epidemiologist California, \u003ca href=\"https://yourlocalepidemiologistca.substack.com/p/early-flu-covid-19-peaks-and-a-record?utm_source=email&redirect=app-store-no-desktop&inbox=true&utm_campaign=email-read-in-app&triedRedirect=true\">wrote in his newsletter\u003c/a> that “Now is the time to get your flu shot, if you haven’t already,” since maximum protection from the vaccine takes around two weeks to build.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Marin County’s former public health officer Matt Willis, now at Your Local Epidemiologist California, \u003ca href=\"https://yourlocalepidemiologistca.substack.com/p/early-flu-covid-19-peaks-and-a-record?utm_source=email&redirect=app-store-no-desktop&inbox=true&utm_campaign=email-read-in-app&triedRedirect=true\">wrote in his newsletter\u003c/a> that “Now is the time to get your flu shot, if you haven’t already,” since maximum protection from the vaccine takes around two weeks to build.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>San Francisco health officials have been \u003ca href=\"https://www.sf.gov/news-san-francisco-department-of-public-health-encourages-vaccination-as-citys-first-influenza-death-is-confirmed\">urging residents to seek out their flu vaccine \u003c/a>since the agency announced the city’s first death from the disease. In a Thursday public advisory, the Santa Clara Public Health Department told residents that “Early flu activity means now is the time to protect your family against fall viruses” — including COVID-19. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>San Francisco health officials have been \u003ca href=\"https://www.sf.gov/news-san-francisco-department-of-public-health-encourages-vaccination-as-citys-first-influenza-death-is-confirmed\">urging residents to seek out their flu vaccine \u003c/a>since the agency announced the city’s first death from the disease. In a Thursday public advisory, the Santa Clara Public Health Department told residents that “Early flu activity means now is the time to protect your family against fall viruses” — including COVID-19. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The new, updated 2026-27 COVID-19 shots are also now available, and it’s completely safe to get your flu vaccine and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098931/where-can-i-find-new-updated-2026-27-covid-vaccine-near-me-moderna-pfizer-cvs-walgreens-safeway-vaccinations-health-insurance-cost\">your COVID-19 vaccine\u003c/a> at the same time for convenience.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The new, updated 2026-27 COVID-19 shots are also now available, and it’s completely safe to get your flu vaccine and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098931/where-can-i-find-new-updated-2026-27-covid-vaccine-near-me-moderna-pfizer-cvs-walgreens-safeway-vaccinations-health-insurance-cost\">your COVID-19 vaccine\u003c/a> at the same time for convenience.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Additionally, the public should be aware and cautious of rapidly spreading misinformation that questions the safety and efficacy of widely tested vaccinations that have protected us for years,” a Santa Clara County spokesperson said. “It’s important to get vaccine information from trusted messengers and qualified healthcare professionals, such as your local public health department.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Additionally, the public should be aware and cautious of rapidly spreading misinformation that questions the safety and efficacy of widely tested vaccinations that have protected us for years,” a Santa Clara County spokesperson said. “It’s important to get vaccine information from trusted messengers and qualified healthcare professionals, such as your local public health department.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As anyone who’s had the flu can attest, the virus is no joke. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/flu-burden/php/php/data-vis/2025-2026.html\">estimated \u003c/a>that last flu season, there were at least 32 million illnesses nationwide, 390,000 hospitalizations, and 24,000 deaths from the flu. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>As anyone who’s had the flu can attest, the virus is no joke. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/flu-burden/php/php/data-vis/2025-2026.html\">estimated \u003c/a>that last flu season, there were at least 32 million illnesses nationwide, 390,000 hospitalizations, and 24,000 deaths from the flu. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The flu vaccine reduces your risk of severe illness and hospitalization. The virus can be especially dangerous for kids, and the CDC said that a 2022 study showed flu vaccination reduced children’s risk of severe, life-threatening influenza by 75%.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The flu vaccine reduces your risk of severe illness and hospitalization. The virus can be especially dangerous for kids, and the CDC said that a 2022 study showed flu vaccination reduced children’s risk of severe, life-threatening influenza by 75%.\u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "Where can I find a flu shot this month?",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Where can I find a flu shot this month?\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you have health insurance, a flu shot is covered and available without extra cost, as a preventive service from your usual health care provider. It’s also available at most pharmacies (see below).\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>If you have health insurance, a flu shot is covered and available without extra cost, as a preventive service from your usual health care provider. It’s also available at most pharmacies (see below).\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can get your flu shot at the same time as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098931/where-can-i-find-new-updated-2026-27-covid-vaccine-near-me-moderna-pfizer-cvs-walgreens-safeway-vaccinations-health-insurance-cost\">your COVID-19 vaccine\u003c/a> — it’s completely safe to do so, and many people do.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>You can get your flu shot at the same time as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098931/where-can-i-find-new-updated-2026-27-covid-vaccine-near-me-moderna-pfizer-cvs-walgreens-safeway-vaccinations-health-insurance-cost\">your COVID-19 vaccine\u003c/a> — it’s completely safe to do so, and many people do.\u003c/p>\n"
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"Kaiser Permanente flu shots (Northern California)",
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"Costco Pharmacy flu shots",
"Albertsons (Safeway) flu shots"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.vaccines.gov/find-vaccines/\">CDC’s Find Flu Vaccines tool\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.vaccines.gov/find-vaccines/\">CDC’s Find Flu Vaccines tool\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://mydoctor.kaiserpermanente.org/ncal/cold-and-flu/prevention#/prevention\">Kaiser Permanente flu shots (Northern California)\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://mydoctor.kaiserpermanente.org/ncal/cold-and-flu/prevention#/prevention\">Kaiser Permanente flu shots (Northern California)\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cvs.com/immunizations/flu\">CVS flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cvs.com/immunizations/flu\">CVS flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.walgreens.com/topic/pharmacy/seasonal-flu.jsp?ban=flu_fy21_influenzapage\">Walgreens flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.walgreens.com/topic/pharmacy/seasonal-flu.jsp?ban=flu_fy21_influenzapage\">Walgreens flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.riteaid.com/pharmacy/scheduler\">Rite Aid flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.riteaid.com/pharmacy/scheduler\">Rite Aid flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.costco.com/Pharmacy/adult-immunization-program.html\">Costco Pharmacy flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.costco.com/Pharmacy/adult-immunization-program.html\">Costco Pharmacy flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.albertsons.com/pharmacy/pharmacy-services/immunizations.html\">Albertsons (Safeway) flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.albertsons.com/pharmacy/pharmacy-services/immunizations.html\">Albertsons (Safeway) flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
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"attrs": {
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"text": "Where can I get a flu shot if I don’t have health insurance?"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Where can I get a flu shot if I don’t have health insurance?\u003c/h3>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can get the vaccine free of charge from several Bay Area providers and community clinics if you don’t have insurance. (You can also \u003cem>technically \u003c/em>use these free services even if you do have insurance, but you may consider choosing to reserve these particular resources for those without coverage).\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You can get the vaccine free of charge from several Bay Area providers and community clinics if you don’t have insurance. (You can also \u003cem>technically \u003c/em>use these free services even if you do have insurance, but you may consider choosing to reserve these particular resources for those without coverage).\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Your county’s public health department may also be offering flu shots.\u003c/p>\n",
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"Alameda County Immunization Clinics"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfcdcp.org/aitc/aitc-regular-prices-low-cost-or-free-vaccines/\">San Francisco Department of Public Health’s AITC clinic\u003c/a> (offers a pay-what-you-can option)\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfcdcp.org/aitc/aitc-regular-prices-low-cost-or-free-vaccines/\">San Francisco Department of Public Health’s AITC clinic\u003c/a> (offers a pay-what-you-can option)\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://cchealth.org/immunization/clinics.php#Uninsured\"> Contra Costa Public Health Immunization Clinic\u003c/a> (flu shots are $15 for adults over 19, but fees may be waived if you’re unable to pay)\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://cchealth.org/immunization/clinics.php#Uninsured\"> Contra Costa Public Health Immunization Clinic\u003c/a> (flu shots are $15 for adults over 19, but fees may be waived if you’re unable to pay)\u003c/li>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>As the Bay Area’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12091325/summer-covid-test-2026-wastewater-variants-isolation-contagious-xfg-san-francisco-bay-area-california\">summer COVID-19 wave\u003c/a> finally tapers down, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/flu\">flu \u003c/a>season is here to take its place — and it’s early this year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to data from Stanford University’s WastewaterSCAN project, which monitors viral levels in human sewage, seasonal onset for flu didn’t arrive until November 2025. But this year, the Bay Area has already officially hit the threshold.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Doctors generally recommend that you get your flu vaccine \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines/vaccinations.html\">sometime in October\u003c/a>, so your body has maximum immunity as the flu starts rising. But this year, the early arrival of flu season — and the Bay Area’s first death from flu in San Francisco — has several counties urging residents to get their shot sooner.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s what to know about the Bay Area’s early 2026 flu season and when you should be getting vaccinated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What’s going on with flu this year?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>WastewaterSCAN’s Amanda Bidwell said that this past September, the team detected the presence of influenza in over 90% of samples from the Bay Area wastewater sites they monitored that month. Concentrations of flu in local human sewage were up almost 350% from August to September, Bidwell said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>UCSF’s lab is also diagnosing flu in its patients up to five times as much as it was a month ago, said Dr. Peter Chin-Hong, an infectious disease expert at UCSF, in an email to KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1405\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12028314\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-800x562.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-1020x717.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-160x112.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-1536x1079.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-1920x1349.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A CVS in Huntington Park on Aug. 28, 2024. (Christina House/Los Angeles Times via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On Oct. 1, the San Francisco Department of Public Health announced the city’s first death from flu in a resident. Last winter, San Francisco didn’t see any flu deaths until January.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The early arrival of flu in California “also tracks with the earlier flu activity seen in the UK, Japan, and other countries in the Northern Hemisphere,” Chin-Hong said. But this doesn’t necessarily mean that the flu season will be worse this year, he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The flu shot is updated every year for maximum efficacy against prevalent strains — and “We have well matched vaccines this year,” Chin-Hong said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">If flu season is here early, should I be getting my flu shot sooner too?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The general consensus is: yes. “I will probably get my flu shot on the soonish side,” Chin-Hong said. “Definitely before Halloween, and probably not wait until November.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Marin County’s former public health officer Matt Willis, now at Your Local Epidemiologist California, \u003ca href=\"https://yourlocalepidemiologistca.substack.com/p/early-flu-covid-19-peaks-and-a-record?utm_source=email&redirect=app-store-no-desktop&inbox=true&utm_campaign=email-read-in-app&triedRedirect=true\">wrote in his newsletter\u003c/a> that “Now is the time to get your flu shot, if you haven’t already,” since maximum protection from the vaccine takes around two weeks to build.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Francisco health officials have been \u003ca href=\"https://www.sf.gov/news-san-francisco-department-of-public-health-encourages-vaccination-as-citys-first-influenza-death-is-confirmed\">urging residents to seek out their flu vaccine \u003c/a>since the agency announced the city’s first death from the disease. In a Thursday public advisory, the Santa Clara Public Health Department told residents that “Early flu activity means now is the time to protect your family against fall viruses” — including COVID-19. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The new, updated 2026-27 COVID-19 shots are also now available, and it’s completely safe to get your flu vaccine and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098931/where-can-i-find-new-updated-2026-27-covid-vaccine-near-me-moderna-pfizer-cvs-walgreens-safeway-vaccinations-health-insurance-cost\">your COVID-19 vaccine\u003c/a> at the same time for convenience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Additionally, the public should be aware and cautious of rapidly spreading misinformation that questions the safety and efficacy of widely tested vaccinations that have protected us for years,” a Santa Clara County spokesperson said. “It’s important to get vaccine information from trusted messengers and qualified healthcare professionals, such as your local public health department.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As anyone who’s had the flu can attest, the virus is no joke. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/flu-burden/php/php/data-vis/2025-2026.html\">estimated \u003c/a>that last flu season, there were at least 32 million illnesses nationwide, 390,000 hospitalizations, and 24,000 deaths from the flu. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The flu vaccine reduces your risk of severe illness and hospitalization. The virus can be especially dangerous for kids, and the CDC said that a 2022 study showed flu vaccination reduced children’s risk of severe, life-threatening influenza by 75%.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Where can I find a flu shot this month?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you have health insurance, a flu shot is covered and available without extra cost, as a preventive service from your usual health care provider. It’s also available at most pharmacies (see below).\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can get your flu shot at the same time as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098931/where-can-i-find-new-updated-2026-27-covid-vaccine-near-me-moderna-pfizer-cvs-walgreens-safeway-vaccinations-health-insurance-cost\">your COVID-19 vaccine\u003c/a> — it’s completely safe to do so, and many people do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Common places to find a flu shot appointment, walk-in site or drive-thru flu shot:\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.vaccines.gov/find-vaccines/\">CDC’s Find Flu Vaccines tool\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://mydoctor.kaiserpermanente.org/ncal/cold-and-flu/prevention#/prevention\">Kaiser Permanente flu shots (Northern California)\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cvs.com/immunizations/flu\">CVS flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.walgreens.com/topic/pharmacy/seasonal-flu.jsp?ban=flu_fy21_influenzapage\">Walgreens flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.riteaid.com/pharmacy/scheduler\">Rite Aid flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.costco.com/Pharmacy/adult-immunization-program.html\">Costco Pharmacy flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.albertsons.com/pharmacy/pharmacy-services/immunizations.html\">Albertsons (Safeway) flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Where can I get a flu shot if I don’t have health insurance?\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can get the vaccine free of charge from several Bay Area providers and community clinics if you don’t have insurance. (You can also \u003cem>technically \u003c/em>use these free services even if you do have insurance, but you may consider choosing to reserve these particular resources for those without coverage).\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Your county’s public health department may also be offering flu shots.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Places to get a free or low-cost flu shot in the Bay Area include:\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfcdcp.org/aitc/aitc-regular-prices-low-cost-or-free-vaccines/\">San Francisco Department of Public Health’s AITC clinic\u003c/a> (offers a pay-what-you-can option)\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://cchealth.org/immunization/clinics.php#Uninsured\"> Contra Costa Public Health Immunization Clinic\u003c/a> (flu shots are $15 for adults over 19, but fees may be waived if you’re unable to pay)\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://acphd.org/clinics/\">Alameda County Immunization Clinics\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "How to Handle Group Conflict Without Tearing People Apart",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are living in divisive times. People are sorting themselves into political and ideological camps. Disagreements within communities, friend groups and families can quickly become a stark choice: you’re either with us or against us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So how can groups fight without tearing each other apart? In her new book, “The Art of Fighting: The Transformative Power of Conflict,” facilitator Priya Parker explores how fighting with care can deepen the relationships we’re afraid of losing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We haven’t been taught to fight well,” Parker said. “We oscillate between avoidance and burning the house down.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Parker offers another possibility: staying in the room and seeing a conflict through to its resolution. “Friends who fight and come through it are actually closer,” Parker said. “It is beautiful on the other side.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk to her about the strategies groups can employ when sparks fly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Learn more about Priya Parker and her work \u003ca href=\"https://www.priyaparker.com/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker,\u003c/strong> facilitator; strategic adviser; author, “The Art of Fighting: The Transformative Power of Conflict”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Your original book, “The Art of Gathering,” famously brought people together for really unique parties. Did some of them just go really bad? Why are you turning towards fighting?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>There is so much conflict in gathering, and particularly in the planning of gatherings. “The Art of Fighting,” in a lot of ways, is my second book about connection. I am interested in connection. And so much of what I see is that we are more fragile as communities, in part because of our conflict aversion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Was part of your motivation, beyond tense wedding planning, what we’re seeing between neighbors and inside town halls that are blowing up?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>I am a facilitator, and during the summer of 2020, I was invited into a number of group and organizational reckonings. If you remember that summer, it was the summer Black Lives Matter and the first summer after the pandemic hit, there were a lot of reckonings inside of organizations. As a facilitator, my peers and I were brought in, and because people were in virtual work, a lot of those reckonings were inside little squares on Zoom. My work had always been in person. Even if people are facing each other and having a conversation they’d otherwise rather not have, you can use your body, if they run out of the room, you could chase them. But all of a sudden in the Zoom, you’re just hitting a little red button and anyone can leave. So, it was a really complex time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As I was watching and as I was part of many of these reckonings, I noticed that we haven’t been taught to fight well. We oscillate between avoidance and burning the house down. And as I was in many Zooms, and these organizations would agree with me, we often don’t have either the skills or the actual infrastructure to know how to have a healthy group fight. So I wanted to write a book that began to ask not how do you yell at strangers on the internet, but actually, how do we fight with those we want to belong to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Avoiding conflict is no better than burning the house down, as you put it. Talk about that because you learned that lesson from a young age.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>My parents both come from lineages — my mother is Indian, my father is white American — where when conflict arose, we kind of stuck our head in the sand, we’re ostriches. When my parents divorced when I was about nine years old, I and everyone around them was shocked because they never fought. And so I learned from a young age that there’s great loss also in avoidance and that human connection can be as threatened by unhealthy peace as it is by unhealthy conflict.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And a fight can sometimes define what a group is about. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>In fact, fights actually form groups. You can’t become a group without a storm, without a fight. There are four phases of a group formation and the first is form and the second is called storm, which is when a group has to decide it is worth making this a thing. It’s almost like couples have the DTR that define the relationship. Are we dating? Are you my boyfriend? Are you my girlfriend? Are we poly? Are we monogamous? It turns out, groups have to go through a similar phase. What are we, what are we about, who’s in charge? And when we are unwilling or unable or unskilled to have these crucial conversations about who we are and what we are doing around here, our groups end up dissipating. They never actually form.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>We’re really living in a time of boundaries and canceling. Social media makes this a lot easier. We can ghost our way through conflict. Have we gotten a lot quicker to leave? And how can people move past those moments where you just want to step out?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>We sure have. It’s easier to bounce than to bother. This is also uniquely part of being alive in the modern era, which is that we tend to, for better or for worse, choose our groups. We choose our friends, we choose our workplace, we choose our institutions of worship. It’s never been easier to leave, in part because we have so much choice. In our great-grandmother’s village, you didn’t have a lot of choice. There were not a lot of places to go. Even in traditional communities, you run into each other at the grocery store or at the market. You can’t avoid each other for that long. Yet in modern life, in part because of an abundance of choice and in part because we can hide from each other through our screens and text messages, it’s never been easier to not face, and yet it is keeping us really lonely.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It seems like we need to practice because I am also very conflict-avoidant. It sounds terrifying to get my sword ready. Right after the election, I had friends who went in very different directions. It surprised me a lot. There is still a lot of tension in this group of friends, and we never talk about politics, but it’s creating a lot of distance between us. So, if I wanted to get everyone together to have these hard conversations, what are some of the infrastructure or tools you mentioned in the book? How would I do it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>The first thing, back up a little bit. Don’t start with a specific form in mind of what this group needs to be. First ask, what is the actual need of this group? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Friends, we’re friends. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>Do you need to talk about this difference? And if so, how? The idea of bringing them all together at the table and talking about politics, that will probably go badly. I would start first by asking yourself, what is the actual need here? What are these people to me? Not all conflict avoidance is from fear. Some of it is from wisdom. In “The Art of Fighting,” I actually have a group of girlfriends who’ve been friends for 30 years; it sounds like your group a little bit. During the pandemic, they hopped on these Zoom happy hours and they realized very quickly that they were very far apart from each other — politically, socially, even perceptions of the pandemic. It threw a number of them into an existential crisis. Are these my people? Is this still my group? And so part of what I worked on with them is to go through a set of questions to decide whether to face or not. And then what is it that you’re facing? Questions like, can I continue to engage meaningfully? Do I care enough about this group to take this on? Do I still have a longing for this group? Is this conflict touching on a core value of mine? Does the group need to reflect those values for me to be a part of it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>My hope with “The Art of Fighting” is not that it gives us better answers, but that it gives us better questions. Ask yourself, what are these people to me? Is it important to me to be in relationship with people who have different viewpoints from me, or is this a red line? It’s first a set of questions for oneself and then beginning to ask, well, do I think by saying something we’re going to alter one another? And if you still have longing for these people, part of my advice to you would be to actually talk less, have fun together, remember why you’re friends, go have a blast. Sometimes a community actually needs to talk less. What they actually need is a soccer game.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It sounds like I just need to go dancing with these people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>At some point, you may have to ask, is this the group that I thought it was? And maybe they become your fun group.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Just putting that title on it made my whole system align in a really good way. But let’s say there is a group conflict that really needs to be had, and I’m ready for it. We’ve defined it. What are some of the tools to use while you’re in that moment? How do you create a ritual or a space where a productive conversation can happen?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>I had a mentor called Randa Slim, and she would always say that 90% of the success of what happens in a room happens before anyone arrives. First, engage in a period of what I call the pre-conflict resolution. When I work with a team or an organization, and they’re getting ready to come together for some kind of facing, one of the questions we ask is, are we having the right conversation? Are we having the right fight? What do you think is happening here? What is the purpose of this organization? What is a conversation you’re always having that feels like it is never getting resolved? And just really listening. Sometimes it’s good to have people have some reflection time, whether in a workbook or with a trusted person, so that they can actually sort out their ideas and feel some of their emotions before coming into the higher-stakes room. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then, once you’re actually in the room to set up, let people understand how it’s going to go, how long it is. Where are we going to be hosting this? Something as simple as not having it in a glass room where other people can see. Don’t have it at a restaurant where other people can hear. Some of these are very practical. Get the table out of the room if possible, which is sort of counterintuitive. Tables often block connection. Then also spend time preparing your own body. Conflict is physical, deeply physical, just not often in the way we think. Not necessarily between people, but in ourselves. So also beginning to prepare ourselves to be able to go into the room and hold healthy heat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What is the goal? At the end of the day, there’s probably still going to be differences. So, what are you trying to achieve in that space?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>There’s a facilitator named Sethu Nair. She told me, you’re trying to create a space where people can actually safely say what they need to say. Now, what does that mean? I have an example in the book where I look at one of the first formative fights between the founders of Burning Man. They had gathered together in Marian Goodell’s dining room. This was in 1998. They had experienced a crisis the summer before. Someone had died. And as Goodell described, it was Mad Max out there on the Playa. And they came together and had to ask, can we create infrastructure and hierarchy if we are trying to also create utopia? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley:\u003c/strong> That’s a good question. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker:\u003c/strong> And the conversation that they were having was, what do we pay ourselves? The values of the group up until that point was they were all equal, so they should all make the same amount of money. And they started comparing rents, and that revealed differences. One lived in a more expensive area, two others were roommates, one had a rent control apartment. Goodell was sitting there clutching this yellow legal pad, and one of the founders said, “Well, everyone should make $30,000.” And she exclaimed, “That’s irrational!” And then she took a deep breath, and she spoke the dangerous truth. She said, “We shouldn’t all get paid the same.” And someone shot back, “How could you value yourself more than us?” Ouch. If she was willing to say it and they were willing to hold it, it expanded their geography of possibility, but it also could have gotten her kicked out. And so part of the infrastructure of a group fight is to make it safe enough for someone to speak their dangerous truth. And their dangerous truth may be, “It really hurt my feelings that you didn’t invite me to your wedding.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You talk about how we shouldn’t stop for the most offended person in the room. And you have a great example of this in your book. Talk about what happened in that workshop with 80 progressive leaders.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>I was facilitating a workshop about community and gathering. I had just begun speaking. Everyone was in a circle. I was speaking about gathering and community. I was using the word tribe. And a person stepped forward and took a mic and said, “I take issue with your use of the word tribe. I’m indigenous. And you are appropriating the word tribe.” The room tenses up. I tense up. But I’m very practiced at this. I breathe. I put my feet on the ground. Again, I’m the facilitator. I have authority. I’m holding a mic. I’m in a position of privilege. I look at her, and I say, “Thank you. I will consider it. And I may not change how I’m speaking. Tribe is a sociological word. It’s a word that exists in many cultures. It’s a word that has existed in many contexts for thousands of years.” And then I looked, and everyone’s holding their breath. And I said, “Don’t let the room be defined by the most offended voice.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I was brought in to help them expand their geography. Years later, some of the members from that moment still bring it up. One of them said to me, “You helped us get unstuck so that we could have wider conversations and not stop if someone is offended.” And let me be clear, I didn’t think the woman shouldn’t have said what she said. I think she should say it. It’s really important. It’s a very good point. I want it on the table. We are a worse group if it’s not on the table. These are core fights. And so I tried to make her feel felt. I gave air to her offense, and I didn’t let the room be defined by it. And we widened the scope of possible conversation that day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If we do this, if we can learn how to do this [fighting] better, do you have a bigger goal? Do you think we can get through this divisiveness in our country?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>Most people I know are in pain. Most people are lonely, even within their intimate partners. Every group fights. Every group I know, friend group, family group, has some mess inside. Part of the invitation is to first say this is a mess and learn to grow the relational longing to be in a mess with you, to grow our capacity for each other, to grow tolerance for each other, to grow joy with each other because the only way out is actually with one another. It is beautiful on the other side. Friends who fight and come through it are actually closer. It’s actually quite intimate to admit hurt. It’s quite intimate to call someone out with care and, in a way, to protect the group and figure out who we are and what we want to do around here. Once you get through it, you’re much more sturdy. You’re much more resilient. This isn’t a moment to keep walking away from each other. We’re going to be incredibly lonely and incredibly bored. It’s so beautiful to be with each other, but part of the art of fighting is to bring in warmth and humor and joy and not just have this serious, angry side over here and this fun, playful side over there. It’s actually all together. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of my favorite examples in the book is a church. A woman called me up saying her church is going through a reckoning like so many churches during the summer of 2020, in part because they hadn’t worshiped together. Their core function to come together every Sunday, to be together in communion was now on a live stream. She said, “We’ve been missing each other, both literally, but also liturgically.” They were tearing each other up about all sorts of stuff like Christianity and Black Lives Matter. And this was a majority white church. She said, “It feels exhausting trying to bring people together, to have these really hard conversations. Everyone’s exhausted.” And someone said, “What if instead we threw a parking lot party? We threw a party outside of the church. Dunk the deacon?” And someone else quickly Googled: how much does it cost to rent a dunk tank? And they were like, “It’s 250 bucks, should we do it?” As they were planning this kind of ridiculous party, they started feeling relaxed. They hosted this parking lot party, and they had the church band play cover songs, they had a dunk tank, they had cotton candy, and they basically just practiced being together again, which after the pandemic was a big deal. One of the women wrote to me later, and she said, “It was so beautiful.” And as people left that day, I kept hearing the phrase, “I didn’t realize how much we needed this.” What they did that day was they didn’t go for the wound. They didn’t go for the jugular. They watered the garden.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>May we all water more gardens and really get to the other side of this moment and beyond. Inside our friendships, obviously, but beyond for our country. Thank you so much, Priya. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Priya Parker is a facilitator, as you heard, and strategic adviser. Her new book is “The Art of Fighting: The Transformative Power of Conflict.” Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We are living in divisive times. People are sorting themselves into political and ideological camps. Disagreements within communities, friend groups and families can quickly become a stark choice: you’re either with us or against us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So how can groups fight without tearing each other apart? In her new book, “The Art of Fighting: The Transformative Power of Conflict,” facilitator Priya Parker explores how fighting with care can deepen the relationships we’re afraid of losing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We haven’t been taught to fight well,” Parker said. “We oscillate between avoidance and burning the house down.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Parker offers another possibility: staying in the room and seeing a conflict through to its resolution. “Friends who fight and come through it are actually closer,” Parker said. “It is beautiful on the other side.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We talk to her about the strategies groups can employ when sparks fly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Learn more about Priya Parker and her work \u003ca href=\"https://www.priyaparker.com/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Your original book, “The Art of Gathering,” famously brought people together for really unique parties. Did some of them just go really bad? Why are you turning towards fighting?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>There is so much conflict in gathering, and particularly in the planning of gatherings. “The Art of Fighting,” in a lot of ways, is my second book about connection. I am interested in connection. And so much of what I see is that we are more fragile as communities, in part because of our conflict aversion.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Was part of your motivation, beyond tense wedding planning, what we’re seeing between neighbors and inside town halls that are blowing up?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>I am a facilitator, and during the summer of 2020, I was invited into a number of group and organizational reckonings. If you remember that summer, it was the summer Black Lives Matter and the first summer after the pandemic hit, there were a lot of reckonings inside of organizations. As a facilitator, my peers and I were brought in, and because people were in virtual work, a lot of those reckonings were inside little squares on Zoom. My work had always been in person. Even if people are facing each other and having a conversation they’d otherwise rather not have, you can use your body, if they run out of the room, you could chase them. But all of a sudden in the Zoom, you’re just hitting a little red button and anyone can leave. So, it was a really complex time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As I was watching and as I was part of many of these reckonings, I noticed that we haven’t been taught to fight well. We oscillate between avoidance and burning the house down. And as I was in many Zooms, and these organizations would agree with me, we often don’t have either the skills or the actual infrastructure to know how to have a healthy group fight. So I wanted to write a book that began to ask not how do you yell at strangers on the internet, but actually, how do we fight with those we want to belong to.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>As I was watching and as I was part of many of these reckonings, I noticed that we haven’t been taught to fight well. We oscillate between avoidance and burning the house down. And as I was in many Zooms, and these organizations would agree with me, we often don’t have either the skills or the actual infrastructure to know how to have a healthy group fight. So I wanted to write a book that began to ask not how do you yell at strangers on the internet, but actually, how do we fight with those we want to belong to.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Avoiding conflict is no better than burning the house down, as you put it. Talk about that because you learned that lesson from a young age.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>My parents both come from lineages — my mother is Indian, my father is white American — where when conflict arose, we kind of stuck our head in the sand, we’re ostriches. When my parents divorced when I was about nine years old, I and everyone around them was shocked because they never fought. And so I learned from a young age that there’s great loss also in avoidance and that human connection can be as threatened by unhealthy peace as it is by unhealthy conflict.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And a fight can sometimes define what a group is about. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>In fact, fights actually form groups. You can’t become a group without a storm, without a fight. There are four phases of a group formation and the first is form and the second is called storm, which is when a group has to decide it is worth making this a thing. It’s almost like couples have the DTR that define the relationship. Are we dating? Are you my boyfriend? Are you my girlfriend? Are we poly? Are we monogamous? It turns out, groups have to go through a similar phase. What are we, what are we about, who’s in charge? And when we are unwilling or unable or unskilled to have these crucial conversations about who we are and what we are doing around here, our groups end up dissipating. They never actually form.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>In fact, fights actually form groups. You can’t become a group without a storm, without a fight. There are four phases of a group formation and the first is form and the second is called storm, which is when a group has to decide it is worth making this a thing. It’s almost like couples have the DTR that define the relationship. Are we dating? Are you my boyfriend? Are you my girlfriend? Are we poly? Are we monogamous? It turns out, groups have to go through a similar phase. What are we, what are we about, who’s in charge? And when we are unwilling or unable or unskilled to have these crucial conversations about who we are and what we are doing around here, our groups end up dissipating. They never actually form.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>We’re really living in a time of boundaries and canceling. Social media makes this a lot easier. We can ghost our way through conflict. Have we gotten a lot quicker to leave? And how can people move past those moments where you just want to step out?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>We sure have. It’s easier to bounce than to bother. This is also uniquely part of being alive in the modern era, which is that we tend to, for better or for worse, choose our groups. We choose our friends, we choose our workplace, we choose our institutions of worship. It’s never been easier to leave, in part because we have so much choice. In our great-grandmother’s village, you didn’t have a lot of choice. There were not a lot of places to go. Even in traditional communities, you run into each other at the grocery store or at the market. You can’t avoid each other for that long. Yet in modern life, in part because of an abundance of choice and in part because we can hide from each other through our screens and text messages, it’s never been easier to not face, and yet it is keeping us really lonely.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>We sure have. It’s easier to bounce than to bother. This is also uniquely part of being alive in the modern era, which is that we tend to, for better or for worse, choose our groups. We choose our friends, we choose our workplace, we choose our institutions of worship. It’s never been easier to leave, in part because we have so much choice. In our great-grandmother’s village, you didn’t have a lot of choice. There were not a lot of places to go. Even in traditional communities, you run into each other at the grocery store or at the market. You can’t avoid each other for that long. Yet in modern life, in part because of an abundance of choice and in part because we can hide from each other through our screens and text messages, it’s never been easier to not face, and yet it is keeping us really lonely.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It seems like we need to practice because I am also very conflict-avoidant. It sounds terrifying to get my sword ready. Right after the election, I had friends who went in very different directions. It surprised me a lot. There is still a lot of tension in this group of friends, and we never talk about politics, but it’s creating a lot of distance between us. So, if I wanted to get everyone together to have these hard conversations, what are some of the infrastructure or tools you mentioned in the book? How would I do it? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It seems like we need to practice because I am also very conflict-avoidant. It sounds terrifying to get my sword ready. Right after the election, I had friends who went in very different directions. It surprised me a lot. There is still a lot of tension in this group of friends, and we never talk about politics, but it’s creating a lot of distance between us. So, if I wanted to get everyone together to have these hard conversations, what are some of the infrastructure or tools you mentioned in the book? How would I do it? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>The first thing, back up a little bit. Don’t start with a specific form in mind of what this group needs to be. First ask, what is the actual need of this group? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>The first thing, back up a little bit. Don’t start with a specific form in mind of what this group needs to be. First ask, what is the actual need of this group? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>Do you need to talk about this difference? And if so, how? The idea of bringing them all together at the table and talking about politics, that will probably go badly. I would start first by asking yourself, what is the actual need here? What are these people to me? Not all conflict avoidance is from fear. Some of it is from wisdom. In “The Art of Fighting,” I actually have a group of girlfriends who’ve been friends for 30 years; it sounds like your group a little bit. During the pandemic, they hopped on these Zoom happy hours and they realized very quickly that they were very far apart from each other — politically, socially, even perceptions of the pandemic. It threw a number of them into an existential crisis. Are these my people? Is this still my group? And so part of what I worked on with them is to go through a set of questions to decide whether to face or not. And then what is it that you’re facing? Questions like, can I continue to engage meaningfully? Do I care enough about this group to take this on? Do I still have a longing for this group? Is this conflict touching on a core value of mine? Does the group need to reflect those values for me to be a part of it? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>Do you need to talk about this difference? And if so, how? The idea of bringing them all together at the table and talking about politics, that will probably go badly. I would start first by asking yourself, what is the actual need here? What are these people to me? Not all conflict avoidance is from fear. Some of it is from wisdom. In “The Art of Fighting,” I actually have a group of girlfriends who’ve been friends for 30 years; it sounds like your group a little bit. During the pandemic, they hopped on these Zoom happy hours and they realized very quickly that they were very far apart from each other — politically, socially, even perceptions of the pandemic. It threw a number of them into an existential crisis. Are these my people? Is this still my group? And so part of what I worked on with them is to go through a set of questions to decide whether to face or not. And then what is it that you’re facing? Questions like, can I continue to engage meaningfully? Do I care enough about this group to take this on? Do I still have a longing for this group? Is this conflict touching on a core value of mine? Does the group need to reflect those values for me to be a part of it? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>My hope with “The Art of Fighting” is not that it gives us better answers, but that it gives us better questions. Ask yourself, what are these people to me? Is it important to me to be in relationship with people who have different viewpoints from me, or is this a red line? It’s first a set of questions for oneself and then beginning to ask, well, do I think by saying something we’re going to alter one another? And if you still have longing for these people, part of my advice to you would be to actually talk less, have fun together, remember why you’re friends, go have a blast. Sometimes a community actually needs to talk less. What they actually need is a soccer game.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>My hope with “The Art of Fighting” is not that it gives us better answers, but that it gives us better questions. Ask yourself, what are these people to me? Is it important to me to be in relationship with people who have different viewpoints from me, or is this a red line? It’s first a set of questions for oneself and then beginning to ask, well, do I think by saying something we’re going to alter one another? And if you still have longing for these people, part of my advice to you would be to actually talk less, have fun together, remember why you’re friends, go have a blast. Sometimes a community actually needs to talk less. What they actually need is a soccer game.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Just putting that title on it made my whole system align in a really good way. But let’s say there is a group conflict that really needs to be had, and I’m ready for it. We’ve defined it. What are some of the tools to use while you’re in that moment? How do you create a ritual or a space where a productive conversation can happen?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Just putting that title on it made my whole system align in a really good way. But let’s say there is a group conflict that really needs to be had, and I’m ready for it. We’ve defined it. What are some of the tools to use while you’re in that moment? How do you create a ritual or a space where a productive conversation can happen?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>I had a mentor called Randa Slim, and she would always say that 90% of the success of what happens in a room happens before anyone arrives. First, engage in a period of what I call the pre-conflict resolution. When I work with a team or an organization, and they’re getting ready to come together for some kind of facing, one of the questions we ask is, are we having the right conversation? Are we having the right fight? What do you think is happening here? What is the purpose of this organization? What is a conversation you’re always having that feels like it is never getting resolved? And just really listening. Sometimes it’s good to have people have some reflection time, whether in a workbook or with a trusted person, so that they can actually sort out their ideas and feel some of their emotions before coming into the higher-stakes room. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>I had a mentor called Randa Slim, and she would always say that 90% of the success of what happens in a room happens before anyone arrives. First, engage in a period of what I call the pre-conflict resolution. When I work with a team or an organization, and they’re getting ready to come together for some kind of facing, one of the questions we ask is, are we having the right conversation? Are we having the right fight? What do you think is happening here? What is the purpose of this organization? What is a conversation you’re always having that feels like it is never getting resolved? And just really listening. Sometimes it’s good to have people have some reflection time, whether in a workbook or with a trusted person, so that they can actually sort out their ideas and feel some of their emotions before coming into the higher-stakes room. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Then, once you’re actually in the room to set up, let people understand how it’s going to go, how long it is. Where are we going to be hosting this? Something as simple as not having it in a glass room where other people can see. Don’t have it at a restaurant where other people can hear. Some of these are very practical. Get the table out of the room if possible, which is sort of counterintuitive. Tables often block connection. Then also spend time preparing your own body. Conflict is physical, deeply physical, just not often in the way we think. Not necessarily between people, but in ourselves. So also beginning to prepare ourselves to be able to go into the room and hold healthy heat.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Then, once you’re actually in the room to set up, let people understand how it’s going to go, how long it is. Where are we going to be hosting this? Something as simple as not having it in a glass room where other people can see. Don’t have it at a restaurant where other people can hear. Some of these are very practical. Get the table out of the room if possible, which is sort of counterintuitive. Tables often block connection. Then also spend time preparing your own body. Conflict is physical, deeply physical, just not often in the way we think. Not necessarily between people, but in ourselves. So also beginning to prepare ourselves to be able to go into the room and hold healthy heat.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What is the goal? At the end of the day, there’s probably still going to be differences. So, what are you trying to achieve in that space?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What is the goal? At the end of the day, there’s probably still going to be differences. So, what are you trying to achieve in that space?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>There’s a facilitator named Sethu Nair. She told me, you’re trying to create a space where people can actually safely say what they need to say. Now, what does that mean? I have an example in the book where I look at one of the first formative fights between the founders of Burning Man. They had gathered together in Marian Goodell’s dining room. This was in 1998. They had experienced a crisis the summer before. Someone had died. And as Goodell described, it was Mad Max out there on the Playa. And they came together and had to ask, can we create infrastructure and hierarchy if we are trying to also create utopia? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>There’s a facilitator named Sethu Nair. She told me, you’re trying to create a space where people can actually safely say what they need to say. Now, what does that mean? I have an example in the book where I look at one of the first formative fights between the founders of Burning Man. They had gathered together in Marian Goodell’s dining room. This was in 1998. They had experienced a crisis the summer before. Someone had died. And as Goodell described, it was Mad Max out there on the Playa. And they came together and had to ask, can we create infrastructure and hierarchy if we are trying to also create utopia? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley:\u003c/strong> That’s a good question. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley:\u003c/strong> That’s a good question. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker:\u003c/strong> And the conversation that they were having was, what do we pay ourselves? The values of the group up until that point was they were all equal, so they should all make the same amount of money. And they started comparing rents, and that revealed differences. One lived in a more expensive area, two others were roommates, one had a rent control apartment. Goodell was sitting there clutching this yellow legal pad, and one of the founders said, “Well, everyone should make $30,000.” And she exclaimed, “That’s irrational!” And then she took a deep breath, and she spoke the dangerous truth. She said, “We shouldn’t all get paid the same.” And someone shot back, “How could you value yourself more than us?” Ouch. If she was willing to say it and they were willing to hold it, it expanded their geography of possibility, but it also could have gotten her kicked out. And so part of the infrastructure of a group fight is to make it safe enough for someone to speak their dangerous truth. And their dangerous truth may be, “It really hurt my feelings that you didn’t invite me to your wedding.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker:\u003c/strong> And the conversation that they were having was, what do we pay ourselves? The values of the group up until that point was they were all equal, so they should all make the same amount of money. And they started comparing rents, and that revealed differences. One lived in a more expensive area, two others were roommates, one had a rent control apartment. Goodell was sitting there clutching this yellow legal pad, and one of the founders said, “Well, everyone should make $30,000.” And she exclaimed, “That’s irrational!” And then she took a deep breath, and she spoke the dangerous truth. She said, “We shouldn’t all get paid the same.” And someone shot back, “How could you value yourself more than us?” Ouch. If she was willing to say it and they were willing to hold it, it expanded their geography of possibility, but it also could have gotten her kicked out. And so part of the infrastructure of a group fight is to make it safe enough for someone to speak their dangerous truth. And their dangerous truth may be, “It really hurt my feelings that you didn’t invite me to your wedding.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You talk about how we shouldn’t stop for the most offended person in the room. And you have a great example of this in your book. Talk about what happened in that workshop with 80 progressive leaders.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You talk about how we shouldn’t stop for the most offended person in the room. And you have a great example of this in your book. Talk about what happened in that workshop with 80 progressive leaders.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>I was facilitating a workshop about community and gathering. I had just begun speaking. Everyone was in a circle. I was speaking about gathering and community. I was using the word tribe. And a person stepped forward and took a mic and said, “I take issue with your use of the word tribe. I’m indigenous. And you are appropriating the word tribe.” The room tenses up. I tense up. But I’m very practiced at this. I breathe. I put my feet on the ground. Again, I’m the facilitator. I have authority. I’m holding a mic. I’m in a position of privilege. I look at her, and I say, “Thank you. I will consider it. And I may not change how I’m speaking. Tribe is a sociological word. It’s a word that exists in many cultures. It’s a word that has existed in many contexts for thousands of years.” And then I looked, and everyone’s holding their breath. And I said, “Don’t let the room be defined by the most offended voice.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>I was facilitating a workshop about community and gathering. I had just begun speaking. Everyone was in a circle. I was speaking about gathering and community. I was using the word tribe. And a person stepped forward and took a mic and said, “I take issue with your use of the word tribe. I’m indigenous. And you are appropriating the word tribe.” The room tenses up. I tense up. But I’m very practiced at this. I breathe. I put my feet on the ground. Again, I’m the facilitator. I have authority. I’m holding a mic. I’m in a position of privilege. I look at her, and I say, “Thank you. I will consider it. And I may not change how I’m speaking. Tribe is a sociological word. It’s a word that exists in many cultures. It’s a word that has existed in many contexts for thousands of years.” And then I looked, and everyone’s holding their breath. And I said, “Don’t let the room be defined by the most offended voice.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I was brought in to help them expand their geography. Years later, some of the members from that moment still bring it up. One of them said to me, “You helped us get unstuck so that we could have wider conversations and not stop if someone is offended.” And let me be clear, I didn’t think the woman shouldn’t have said what she said. I think she should say it. It’s really important. It’s a very good point. I want it on the table. We are a worse group if it’s not on the table. These are core fights. And so I tried to make her feel felt. I gave air to her offense, and I didn’t let the room be defined by it. And we widened the scope of possible conversation that day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I was brought in to help them expand their geography. Years later, some of the members from that moment still bring it up. One of them said to me, “You helped us get unstuck so that we could have wider conversations and not stop if someone is offended.” And let me be clear, I didn’t think the woman shouldn’t have said what she said. I think she should say it. It’s really important. It’s a very good point. I want it on the table. We are a worse group if it’s not on the table. These are core fights. And so I tried to make her feel felt. I gave air to her offense, and I didn’t let the room be defined by it. And we widened the scope of possible conversation that day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If we do this, if we can learn how to do this [fighting] better, do you have a bigger goal? Do you think we can get through this divisiveness in our country?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If we do this, if we can learn how to do this [fighting] better, do you have a bigger goal? Do you think we can get through this divisiveness in our country?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>Most people I know are in pain. Most people are lonely, even within their intimate partners. Every group fights. Every group I know, friend group, family group, has some mess inside. Part of the invitation is to first say this is a mess and learn to grow the relational longing to be in a mess with you, to grow our capacity for each other, to grow tolerance for each other, to grow joy with each other because the only way out is actually with one another. It is beautiful on the other side. Friends who fight and come through it are actually closer. It’s actually quite intimate to admit hurt. It’s quite intimate to call someone out with care and, in a way, to protect the group and figure out who we are and what we want to do around here. Once you get through it, you’re much more sturdy. You’re much more resilient. This isn’t a moment to keep walking away from each other. We’re going to be incredibly lonely and incredibly bored. It’s so beautiful to be with each other, but part of the art of fighting is to bring in warmth and humor and joy and not just have this serious, angry side over here and this fun, playful side over there. It’s actually all together. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>Most people I know are in pain. Most people are lonely, even within their intimate partners. Every group fights. Every group I know, friend group, family group, has some mess inside. Part of the invitation is to first say this is a mess and learn to grow the relational longing to be in a mess with you, to grow our capacity for each other, to grow tolerance for each other, to grow joy with each other because the only way out is actually with one another. It is beautiful on the other side. Friends who fight and come through it are actually closer. It’s actually quite intimate to admit hurt. It’s quite intimate to call someone out with care and, in a way, to protect the group and figure out who we are and what we want to do around here. Once you get through it, you’re much more sturdy. You’re much more resilient. This isn’t a moment to keep walking away from each other. We’re going to be incredibly lonely and incredibly bored. It’s so beautiful to be with each other, but part of the art of fighting is to bring in warmth and humor and joy and not just have this serious, angry side over here and this fun, playful side over there. It’s actually all together. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One of my favorite examples in the book is a church. A woman called me up saying her church is going through a reckoning like so many churches during the summer of 2020, in part because they hadn’t worshiped together. Their core function to come together every Sunday, to be together in communion was now on a live stream. She said, “We’ve been missing each other, both literally, but also liturgically.” They were tearing each other up about all sorts of stuff like Christianity and Black Lives Matter. And this was a majority white church. She said, “It feels exhausting trying to bring people together, to have these really hard conversations. Everyone’s exhausted.” And someone said, “What if instead we threw a parking lot party? We threw a party outside of the church. Dunk the deacon?” And someone else quickly Googled: how much does it cost to rent a dunk tank? And they were like, “It’s 250 bucks, should we do it?” As they were planning this kind of ridiculous party, they started feeling relaxed. They hosted this parking lot party, and they had the church band play cover songs, they had a dunk tank, they had cotton candy, and they basically just practiced being together again, which after the pandemic was a big deal. One of the women wrote to me later, and she said, “It was so beautiful.” And as people left that day, I kept hearing the phrase, “I didn’t realize how much we needed this.” What they did that day was they didn’t go for the wound. They didn’t go for the jugular. They watered the garden.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>One of my favorite examples in the book is a church. A woman called me up saying her church is going through a reckoning like so many churches during the summer of 2020, in part because they hadn’t worshiped together. Their core function to come together every Sunday, to be together in communion was now on a live stream. She said, “We’ve been missing each other, both literally, but also liturgically.” They were tearing each other up about all sorts of stuff like Christianity and Black Lives Matter. And this was a majority white church. She said, “It feels exhausting trying to bring people together, to have these really hard conversations. Everyone’s exhausted.” And someone said, “What if instead we threw a parking lot party? We threw a party outside of the church. Dunk the deacon?” And someone else quickly Googled: how much does it cost to rent a dunk tank? And they were like, “It’s 250 bucks, should we do it?” As they were planning this kind of ridiculous party, they started feeling relaxed. They hosted this parking lot party, and they had the church band play cover songs, they had a dunk tank, they had cotton candy, and they basically just practiced being together again, which after the pandemic was a big deal. One of the women wrote to me later, and she said, “It was so beautiful.” And as people left that day, I kept hearing the phrase, “I didn’t realize how much we needed this.” What they did that day was they didn’t go for the wound. They didn’t go for the jugular. They watered the garden.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>May we all water more gardens and really get to the other side of this moment and beyond. Inside our friendships, obviously, but beyond for our country. Thank you so much, Priya. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>May we all water more gardens and really get to the other side of this moment and beyond. Inside our friendships, obviously, but beyond for our country. Thank you so much, Priya. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Priya Parker is a facilitator, as you heard, and strategic adviser. Her new book is “The Art of Fighting: The Transformative Power of Conflict.” Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Priya Parker is a facilitator, as you heard, and strategic adviser. Her new book is “The Art of Fighting: The Transformative Power of Conflict.” Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are living in divisive times. People are sorting themselves into political and ideological camps. Disagreements within communities, friend groups and families can quickly become a stark choice: you’re either with us or against us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So how can groups fight without tearing each other apart? In her new book, “The Art of Fighting: The Transformative Power of Conflict,” facilitator Priya Parker explores how fighting with care can deepen the relationships we’re afraid of losing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We haven’t been taught to fight well,” Parker said. “We oscillate between avoidance and burning the house down.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Parker offers another possibility: staying in the room and seeing a conflict through to its resolution. “Friends who fight and come through it are actually closer,” Parker said. “It is beautiful on the other side.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk to her about the strategies groups can employ when sparks fly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Learn more about Priya Parker and her work \u003ca href=\"https://www.priyaparker.com/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker,\u003c/strong> facilitator; strategic adviser; author, “The Art of Fighting: The Transformative Power of Conflict”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Your original book, “The Art of Gathering,” famously brought people together for really unique parties. Did some of them just go really bad? Why are you turning towards fighting?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>There is so much conflict in gathering, and particularly in the planning of gatherings. “The Art of Fighting,” in a lot of ways, is my second book about connection. I am interested in connection. And so much of what I see is that we are more fragile as communities, in part because of our conflict aversion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Was part of your motivation, beyond tense wedding planning, what we’re seeing between neighbors and inside town halls that are blowing up?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>I am a facilitator, and during the summer of 2020, I was invited into a number of group and organizational reckonings. If you remember that summer, it was the summer Black Lives Matter and the first summer after the pandemic hit, there were a lot of reckonings inside of organizations. As a facilitator, my peers and I were brought in, and because people were in virtual work, a lot of those reckonings were inside little squares on Zoom. My work had always been in person. Even if people are facing each other and having a conversation they’d otherwise rather not have, you can use your body, if they run out of the room, you could chase them. But all of a sudden in the Zoom, you’re just hitting a little red button and anyone can leave. So, it was a really complex time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As I was watching and as I was part of many of these reckonings, I noticed that we haven’t been taught to fight well. We oscillate between avoidance and burning the house down. And as I was in many Zooms, and these organizations would agree with me, we often don’t have either the skills or the actual infrastructure to know how to have a healthy group fight. So I wanted to write a book that began to ask not how do you yell at strangers on the internet, but actually, how do we fight with those we want to belong to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Avoiding conflict is no better than burning the house down, as you put it. Talk about that because you learned that lesson from a young age.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>My parents both come from lineages — my mother is Indian, my father is white American — where when conflict arose, we kind of stuck our head in the sand, we’re ostriches. When my parents divorced when I was about nine years old, I and everyone around them was shocked because they never fought. And so I learned from a young age that there’s great loss also in avoidance and that human connection can be as threatened by unhealthy peace as it is by unhealthy conflict.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And a fight can sometimes define what a group is about. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>In fact, fights actually form groups. You can’t become a group without a storm, without a fight. There are four phases of a group formation and the first is form and the second is called storm, which is when a group has to decide it is worth making this a thing. It’s almost like couples have the DTR that define the relationship. Are we dating? Are you my boyfriend? Are you my girlfriend? Are we poly? Are we monogamous? It turns out, groups have to go through a similar phase. What are we, what are we about, who’s in charge? And when we are unwilling or unable or unskilled to have these crucial conversations about who we are and what we are doing around here, our groups end up dissipating. They never actually form.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>We’re really living in a time of boundaries and canceling. Social media makes this a lot easier. We can ghost our way through conflict. Have we gotten a lot quicker to leave? And how can people move past those moments where you just want to step out?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>We sure have. It’s easier to bounce than to bother. This is also uniquely part of being alive in the modern era, which is that we tend to, for better or for worse, choose our groups. We choose our friends, we choose our workplace, we choose our institutions of worship. It’s never been easier to leave, in part because we have so much choice. In our great-grandmother’s village, you didn’t have a lot of choice. There were not a lot of places to go. Even in traditional communities, you run into each other at the grocery store or at the market. You can’t avoid each other for that long. Yet in modern life, in part because of an abundance of choice and in part because we can hide from each other through our screens and text messages, it’s never been easier to not face, and yet it is keeping us really lonely.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It seems like we need to practice because I am also very conflict-avoidant. It sounds terrifying to get my sword ready. Right after the election, I had friends who went in very different directions. It surprised me a lot. There is still a lot of tension in this group of friends, and we never talk about politics, but it’s creating a lot of distance between us. So, if I wanted to get everyone together to have these hard conversations, what are some of the infrastructure or tools you mentioned in the book? How would I do it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>The first thing, back up a little bit. Don’t start with a specific form in mind of what this group needs to be. First ask, what is the actual need of this group? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Friends, we’re friends. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>Do you need to talk about this difference? And if so, how? The idea of bringing them all together at the table and talking about politics, that will probably go badly. I would start first by asking yourself, what is the actual need here? What are these people to me? Not all conflict avoidance is from fear. Some of it is from wisdom. In “The Art of Fighting,” I actually have a group of girlfriends who’ve been friends for 30 years; it sounds like your group a little bit. During the pandemic, they hopped on these Zoom happy hours and they realized very quickly that they were very far apart from each other — politically, socially, even perceptions of the pandemic. It threw a number of them into an existential crisis. Are these my people? Is this still my group? And so part of what I worked on with them is to go through a set of questions to decide whether to face or not. And then what is it that you’re facing? Questions like, can I continue to engage meaningfully? Do I care enough about this group to take this on? Do I still have a longing for this group? Is this conflict touching on a core value of mine? Does the group need to reflect those values for me to be a part of it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>My hope with “The Art of Fighting” is not that it gives us better answers, but that it gives us better questions. Ask yourself, what are these people to me? Is it important to me to be in relationship with people who have different viewpoints from me, or is this a red line? It’s first a set of questions for oneself and then beginning to ask, well, do I think by saying something we’re going to alter one another? And if you still have longing for these people, part of my advice to you would be to actually talk less, have fun together, remember why you’re friends, go have a blast. Sometimes a community actually needs to talk less. What they actually need is a soccer game.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It sounds like I just need to go dancing with these people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>At some point, you may have to ask, is this the group that I thought it was? And maybe they become your fun group.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Just putting that title on it made my whole system align in a really good way. But let’s say there is a group conflict that really needs to be had, and I’m ready for it. We’ve defined it. What are some of the tools to use while you’re in that moment? How do you create a ritual or a space where a productive conversation can happen?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>I had a mentor called Randa Slim, and she would always say that 90% of the success of what happens in a room happens before anyone arrives. First, engage in a period of what I call the pre-conflict resolution. When I work with a team or an organization, and they’re getting ready to come together for some kind of facing, one of the questions we ask is, are we having the right conversation? Are we having the right fight? What do you think is happening here? What is the purpose of this organization? What is a conversation you’re always having that feels like it is never getting resolved? And just really listening. Sometimes it’s good to have people have some reflection time, whether in a workbook or with a trusted person, so that they can actually sort out their ideas and feel some of their emotions before coming into the higher-stakes room. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then, once you’re actually in the room to set up, let people understand how it’s going to go, how long it is. Where are we going to be hosting this? Something as simple as not having it in a glass room where other people can see. Don’t have it at a restaurant where other people can hear. Some of these are very practical. Get the table out of the room if possible, which is sort of counterintuitive. Tables often block connection. Then also spend time preparing your own body. Conflict is physical, deeply physical, just not often in the way we think. Not necessarily between people, but in ourselves. So also beginning to prepare ourselves to be able to go into the room and hold healthy heat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What is the goal? At the end of the day, there’s probably still going to be differences. So, what are you trying to achieve in that space?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>There’s a facilitator named Sethu Nair. She told me, you’re trying to create a space where people can actually safely say what they need to say. Now, what does that mean? I have an example in the book where I look at one of the first formative fights between the founders of Burning Man. They had gathered together in Marian Goodell’s dining room. This was in 1998. They had experienced a crisis the summer before. Someone had died. And as Goodell described, it was Mad Max out there on the Playa. And they came together and had to ask, can we create infrastructure and hierarchy if we are trying to also create utopia? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley:\u003c/strong> That’s a good question. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker:\u003c/strong> And the conversation that they were having was, what do we pay ourselves? The values of the group up until that point was they were all equal, so they should all make the same amount of money. And they started comparing rents, and that revealed differences. One lived in a more expensive area, two others were roommates, one had a rent control apartment. Goodell was sitting there clutching this yellow legal pad, and one of the founders said, “Well, everyone should make $30,000.” And she exclaimed, “That’s irrational!” And then she took a deep breath, and she spoke the dangerous truth. She said, “We shouldn’t all get paid the same.” And someone shot back, “How could you value yourself more than us?” Ouch. If she was willing to say it and they were willing to hold it, it expanded their geography of possibility, but it also could have gotten her kicked out. And so part of the infrastructure of a group fight is to make it safe enough for someone to speak their dangerous truth. And their dangerous truth may be, “It really hurt my feelings that you didn’t invite me to your wedding.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You talk about how we shouldn’t stop for the most offended person in the room. And you have a great example of this in your book. Talk about what happened in that workshop with 80 progressive leaders.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>I was facilitating a workshop about community and gathering. I had just begun speaking. Everyone was in a circle. I was speaking about gathering and community. I was using the word tribe. And a person stepped forward and took a mic and said, “I take issue with your use of the word tribe. I’m indigenous. And you are appropriating the word tribe.” The room tenses up. I tense up. But I’m very practiced at this. I breathe. I put my feet on the ground. Again, I’m the facilitator. I have authority. I’m holding a mic. I’m in a position of privilege. I look at her, and I say, “Thank you. I will consider it. And I may not change how I’m speaking. Tribe is a sociological word. It’s a word that exists in many cultures. It’s a word that has existed in many contexts for thousands of years.” And then I looked, and everyone’s holding their breath. And I said, “Don’t let the room be defined by the most offended voice.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I was brought in to help them expand their geography. Years later, some of the members from that moment still bring it up. One of them said to me, “You helped us get unstuck so that we could have wider conversations and not stop if someone is offended.” And let me be clear, I didn’t think the woman shouldn’t have said what she said. I think she should say it. It’s really important. It’s a very good point. I want it on the table. We are a worse group if it’s not on the table. These are core fights. And so I tried to make her feel felt. I gave air to her offense, and I didn’t let the room be defined by it. And we widened the scope of possible conversation that day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If we do this, if we can learn how to do this [fighting] better, do you have a bigger goal? Do you think we can get through this divisiveness in our country?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>Most people I know are in pain. Most people are lonely, even within their intimate partners. Every group fights. Every group I know, friend group, family group, has some mess inside. Part of the invitation is to first say this is a mess and learn to grow the relational longing to be in a mess with you, to grow our capacity for each other, to grow tolerance for each other, to grow joy with each other because the only way out is actually with one another. It is beautiful on the other side. Friends who fight and come through it are actually closer. It’s actually quite intimate to admit hurt. It’s quite intimate to call someone out with care and, in a way, to protect the group and figure out who we are and what we want to do around here. Once you get through it, you’re much more sturdy. You’re much more resilient. This isn’t a moment to keep walking away from each other. We’re going to be incredibly lonely and incredibly bored. It’s so beautiful to be with each other, but part of the art of fighting is to bring in warmth and humor and joy and not just have this serious, angry side over here and this fun, playful side over there. It’s actually all together. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of my favorite examples in the book is a church. A woman called me up saying her church is going through a reckoning like so many churches during the summer of 2020, in part because they hadn’t worshiped together. Their core function to come together every Sunday, to be together in communion was now on a live stream. She said, “We’ve been missing each other, both literally, but also liturgically.” They were tearing each other up about all sorts of stuff like Christianity and Black Lives Matter. And this was a majority white church. She said, “It feels exhausting trying to bring people together, to have these really hard conversations. Everyone’s exhausted.” And someone said, “What if instead we threw a parking lot party? We threw a party outside of the church. Dunk the deacon?” And someone else quickly Googled: how much does it cost to rent a dunk tank? And they were like, “It’s 250 bucks, should we do it?” As they were planning this kind of ridiculous party, they started feeling relaxed. They hosted this parking lot party, and they had the church band play cover songs, they had a dunk tank, they had cotton candy, and they basically just practiced being together again, which after the pandemic was a big deal. One of the women wrote to me later, and she said, “It was so beautiful.” And as people left that day, I kept hearing the phrase, “I didn’t realize how much we needed this.” What they did that day was they didn’t go for the wound. They didn’t go for the jugular. They watered the garden.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>May we all water more gardens and really get to the other side of this moment and beyond. Inside our friendships, obviously, but beyond for our country. Thank you so much, Priya. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Priya Parker is a facilitator, as you heard, and strategic adviser. Her new book is “The Art of Fighting: The Transformative Power of Conflict.” Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Desire is strange and ridiculous,” according to Niki Davis-Fainbloom, a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some people are turned on by feet or latex. Others by sneezing, even quicksand. Fetishes can seem forbidden or even disturbing. But what makes one desire “normal” and another a fetish? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip,” Davis-Fainbloom said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She recommends a fetish revolution so people can enthusiastically embrace what lights them up. We’ll talk to her about what that would look like. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Learn more about Niki Davis-Fainbloom and her work \u003ca href=\"https://www.nikidavisf.com/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom,\u003c/strong> sex educator; author, “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Can you define fetish so we know exactly what we’re talking about?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I think of a fetish as an erotic focus on something. It can be an object, a body part, a body action, and it’s something that most of the population doesn’t consider to be sexual, but the person finds it sexual. One thing that I found in my research that is different from what we often think about when we think about fetishes is that people with fetishes may have multiple erotic interests. It’s not necessarily the only thing that turns them on. I interviewed someone with a sneeze fetish, and they said they’re turned on by sneezes, long makeout sessions and massages. So, it can be one of many things that they find exciting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What differentiates it from a preference is that they tend to be focused on and excited about it. I have someone on my Instagram who has a quicksand fetish, and anytime I post anything remotely in nature, he’s like, “I wonder what it would be like if there was quicksand there,” or, “Kind of looks like quicksand.” You can just tell that they’re enthusiastic about what their desire is, similar to the way a Trekkie might be, or someone who’s super into something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there usually an event that happened or some time that it sparked in them? Or is it unexplainable? How do people trace why they have the fetish they do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>That was the most interesting parts of my research — asking people where it came from. For some people, it was just a fascination at first. It wasn’t erotic. It was just, “Oh, I really like playing in quicksand,” or, “I’m kind of interested in this material,” and as their sexuality developed, so too did they find ways to use this fascination in a sexual way. But for others, it can be more that something happened to get paired with their early sexual experiences. So, if the first time they discovered self-pleasure, they discovered it in their mom’s closet where there was a bunch of silk around, then it could be that through that association, moving forward in their lives, silk is something they find erotic. You’d call that classical conditioning, where there’s something that initially is random, and then because it’s paired with something that has such a strong emotional salience, it shifts the meaning of the other object. Researchers have given people fetishes for pennies and boots just by pairing them with images of sexy, naked women enough times. So, our brain is primed to attach that erotic meaning to anything if it is paired with something erotic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Can a fetish develop out of a painful experience? And if it does, can it then be enjoyable for the person?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It can develop from a painful experience. People often think of fetishes as a result of trauma and, in my research, it was mostly out of pleasurable moments. But definitely it can also come out of these negative childhood experiences. When that happens, the person needs to work on parsing out the negative experience from their personal desire. And often that takes some processing, some therapy, but you can get to a place where you can really enjoy something even if it’s sparked from a negative experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You say we need to have a fetish revolution, and clearly your title points to that — “Smash taboos and celebrate what turns you on.” Why are fetishes so taboo and so stigmatized, and how would we have a revolution?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Even the word has a very negative connotation. We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip and is trying to get his way there. I think the reason for that is, very occasionally, there are people that act out fetishes in a way that’s unethical. The way the media works is, we point to the one-in-a-thousand story of someone who works at a shoe store just to get close to women’s feet unethically. There are also these stigmatized ideas of fetishes as something that’s practiced alone, as something that isolates you from others, and as something can be practiced unethically. I talk to a lot of people where they share that they have two selves — they have their fetish self and their other self. The reason it’s parsed out is because we still live in a society that’s struggling to become sex positive. And they feel that if they tell their partners, they’re going to be shamed. They feel like they kind of need to practice it alone. So, the revolution begins with education. It begins with sharing these stories, sharing what we know about where fetishes come from, and sharing that we’re actually all weirdos, so we’re actually very normal. Desire is strange and ridiculous.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You write about one fetish, vore, and this is the fantasy of consuming or being consumed. What does that teach us about how a fetish works inside of our brain? Being consumed or consuming, how does that explain what fetishes are?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It’s something that comes out of culture, I believe. Think of “Honey, I Shrunk the Kids,” or all these tropes that we might be raised with where people are either getting swallowed or almost getting swallowed. There’s the “Magic School Bus” episode. It’s a very interesting conceptual concept. And for some people, that concept becomes eroticized. One of my favorite coaching sessions I ever had was with a couple who, one of them was into vore, and it was very much a strategy session of figuring out how we can make their living room look and feel as much like the inside of a stomach as possible, so they could role-play it. And it was just really fun and creative to think about: what could it smell like? And we were looking up, like, the esophagus and getting fun and creative with it. When your partner is on board, it can be a really fun experience to have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say you’re listening to this, and you know you have a fetish, a fascination with something, and you haven’t disclosed it with anyone. How do you get comfortable with it yourself and then begin to talk about it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>First of all, you’rereally, really not alone. I think sometimes people feel really alone with their desires. The first step is to find your community online, because basically any desire that’s out there, there are a lot of enthusiasts. Think of the Looners, people who are turned on by balloons. There’s over 5,000 people on chat rooms. Finding your community is really helpful. Doing the self-work first is really important because if you disclose when you still feel a lot of shame around it, then you’re likely to bring it up being like, “Hey, there’s this thing I’m turned on by. It’s actually really embarrassing. I can’t even believe I’m telling you this. It’s kind of gross.” The chances for your partner to be open to it if that’s the way you’re bringing it up are very low.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How should you bridge that conversation with your partner? How can you talk about it positively so they embrace it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I wouldn’t just spring it on them, and I don’t think it should be talked about during any sexual activity. First, create a container, so saying, “Hey, why don’t we talk about fantasies tomorrow night? Let’s have a date night. There’s something I’ve been excited to talk to you about.” Also ask your partner, “Hey, I want to make all your dreams come true. What are some desires that you have? How can we explore them?” A lot of work that I do with couples is figuring out sexy plans. So it’s like, “What are some new things we want to try in the next year? How do we actually make it happen?” The hardest part is that first step. Think a little bit about why you’re sharing it with your partner. Are you sharing it because you just want them to know that sometimes you watch this porn and you don’t want to be secretive about it? Are you letting them know because you have ideas of how you’d be interested in exploring it with them? For you, is this something that’s essential in a relationship to explore with a partner? Or is it something that would just add a little juice, but if your partner is not down, you also feel okay? Because I think that also might depend on how early you want to bring it up in a relationship. Because if for you, it’s a deal breaker, then in the first few dates, it’s helpful to just see if there’s compatibility there. Because I’ve worked with a few couples where they go too hard too fast. And then we have to work on processing that before figuring out where to go from there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What if your partner is not down with it? Do you work with couples who manage to have a thriving relationship where one partner has to practice their fetish outside of the primary partnership?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I have worked with couples like that. It works well if there’s some type of open dynamic where they have someone else that they explore the fetish with, but they have more traditional sex with their partner. I think it gets tricky if people with more intense fetishes are less interested in having traditional sex. Then it’s sometimes harder for the partner that doesn’t have a fetish to have their pleasure. So that’s part of the navigation. But I’ve definitely worked with a lot of couples that have figured it out. The essence of it is if the partner can accept it and not make the other person feel bad for whatever turns them on, even if they don’t want to be a part of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What if your fetish is dangerous? You talk about people in the book who have a fire fetish. How do you navigate your fetish if it could potentially go really badly? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I don’t think there’s one right answer. The fire enthusiast I interviewed would say, “There’s a bigger risk of getting in a car crash on your way than dying through fire exploration.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I mean, that’s a fair argument, but I still don’t know if someone was like, “I want to light myself on fire while we’re having sex,” that I would be able to roll with it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>So I think with anything, we make decisions in our life that might cause harm. Similarly with smoking, with jumping out of planes. A lot of these dopamine-engaging experiences can have a level of harm. I think it’s up to the person to figure that out. If there’s a high chance of death, I think it’s unethical to do that. But if it’s like, one in a thousand chance you burn yourself and you’re in pain for a while. I think you can make that decision for yourself. I think what needs to be navigated is if you’re doing that with a partner and they’re not as excited as you are about it, I don’t think you should put yourself in danger to please a partner.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you recommend people find more live humans to explore this with? You mentioned chat rooms, but how do we explore these person to person? And how do people begin to find out where their people are? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Part of it is about expanding what might arouse you. People with fetishes sometimes have something specific that turns them on, but when they can be creative with it, it can be explored in a lot of different ways, and that’s why I want to create a space for all people with fetishes to talk. Right now, the communities are very dispersed, and they don’t really talk to each other or know much about each other. But there can be really interesting overlaps if people talk more about what is the underlying desire. For someone who is turned on by casts, maybe you realize you really like to take care of people, and you want to be in service. What are ways you can explore that? Maybe casts are sometimes part of that, but that doesn’t necessarily have to always be a part of it. If your mindset is that of being curious, because it’s so specific, the beginning of the exploration might be online. It might be going to sites like FetLife and seeing who has similar experiences. It also might be going to sex positive events in a place that seems safe, and a place where you can see where that overlap is and be creative about what that can look like. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You close your book with one of the most surprising fetishes that you have come across, and it’s a very affirming story. Can you tell us about Randy? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Randy is a great story. Randy is turned on by wet floor signs, and it’s really interesting because he gave himself the fetish through creating art around it. There was a character in a show he was in that had a wet floor sign hat. Rule 34 says if anything exists, there’s porn of it. But Randy realized that there wasn’t any wet floor sign porn. So he was like, “I’m going to be a revolutionary. I’m going to change that. I’m going to make some porn.” And in making the porn, he came to associate desire with what he was drawing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Any final words of advice for listeners in terms of giving themselves permission to explore this world? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>We spend much of our lives feeling like if we’re fully honest about whatever’s going on in our brain and we say it out loud, we won’t be accepted. But I do think that with the right people, you can be accepted for what it is that excites you. And it starts with one brave friend to bring up a topic at dinner, to get deeper, to be vulnerable and open. I hope that this book is a step towards us all being more open to talking about our desires, not just with our partners, but with other people, because life’s too short to feel alone. No matter who your people are, they’re out there. I’ve worked with so many people who spent 20 years feeling alone before they started taking the steps. And you need to wait. You can start today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you, Niki. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Thanks so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom is a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book, “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” It’s out in October. Inside Love is a production of KQED, and we’d love to hear what you think. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Desire is strange and ridiculous,” according to Niki Davis-Fainbloom, a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Desire is strange and ridiculous,” according to Niki Davis-Fainbloom, a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some people are turned on by feet or latex. Others by sneezing, even quicksand. Fetishes can seem forbidden or even disturbing. But what makes one desire “normal” and another a fetish? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Some people are turned on by feet or latex. Others by sneezing, even quicksand. Fetishes can seem forbidden or even disturbing. But what makes one desire “normal” and another a fetish? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip,” Davis-Fainbloom said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip,” Davis-Fainbloom said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She recommends a fetish revolution so people can enthusiastically embrace what lights them up. We’ll talk to her about what that would look like. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Learn more about Niki Davis-Fainbloom and her work \u003ca href=\"https://www.nikidavisf.com/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Learn more about Niki Davis-Fainbloom and her work \u003ca href=\"https://www.nikidavisf.com/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Can you define fetish so we know exactly what we’re talking about?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I think of a fetish as an erotic focus on something. It can be an object, a body part, a body action, and it’s something that most of the population doesn’t consider to be sexual, but the person finds it sexual. One thing that I found in my research that is different from what we often think about when we think about fetishes is that people with fetishes may have multiple erotic interests. It’s not necessarily the only thing that turns them on. I interviewed someone with a sneeze fetish, and they said they’re turned on by sneezes, long makeout sessions and massages. So, it can be one of many things that they find exciting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I think of a fetish as an erotic focus on something. It can be an object, a body part, a body action, and it’s something that most of the population doesn’t consider to be sexual, but the person finds it sexual. One thing that I found in my research that is different from what we often think about when we think about fetishes is that people with fetishes may have multiple erotic interests. It’s not necessarily the only thing that turns them on. I interviewed someone with a sneeze fetish, and they said they’re turned on by sneezes, long makeout sessions and massages. So, it can be one of many things that they find exciting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What differentiates it from a preference is that they tend to be focused on and excited about it. I have someone on my Instagram who has a quicksand fetish, and anytime I post anything remotely in nature, he’s like, “I wonder what it would be like if there was quicksand there,” or, “Kind of looks like quicksand.” You can just tell that they’re enthusiastic about what their desire is, similar to the way a Trekkie might be, or someone who’s super into something.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What differentiates it from a preference is that they tend to be focused on and excited about it. I have someone on my Instagram who has a quicksand fetish, and anytime I post anything remotely in nature, he’s like, “I wonder what it would be like if there was quicksand there,” or, “Kind of looks like quicksand.” You can just tell that they’re enthusiastic about what their desire is, similar to the way a Trekkie might be, or someone who’s super into something.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there usually an event that happened or some time that it sparked in them? Or is it unexplainable? How do people trace why they have the fetish they do?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>That was the most interesting parts of my research — asking people where it came from. For some people, it was just a fascination at first. It wasn’t erotic. It was just, “Oh, I really like playing in quicksand,” or, “I’m kind of interested in this material,” and as their sexuality developed, so too did they find ways to use this fascination in a sexual way. But for others, it can be more that something happened to get paired with their early sexual experiences. So, if the first time they discovered self-pleasure, they discovered it in their mom’s closet where there was a bunch of silk around, then it could be that through that association, moving forward in their lives, silk is something they find erotic. You’d call that classical conditioning, where there’s something that initially is random, and then because it’s paired with something that has such a strong emotional salience, it shifts the meaning of the other object. Researchers have given people fetishes for pennies and boots just by pairing them with images of sexy, naked women enough times. So, our brain is primed to attach that erotic meaning to anything if it is paired with something erotic.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>That was the most interesting parts of my research — asking people where it came from. For some people, it was just a fascination at first. It wasn’t erotic. It was just, “Oh, I really like playing in quicksand,” or, “I’m kind of interested in this material,” and as their sexuality developed, so too did they find ways to use this fascination in a sexual way. But for others, it can be more that something happened to get paired with their early sexual experiences. So, if the first time they discovered self-pleasure, they discovered it in their mom’s closet where there was a bunch of silk around, then it could be that through that association, moving forward in their lives, silk is something they find erotic. You’d call that classical conditioning, where there’s something that initially is random, and then because it’s paired with something that has such a strong emotional salience, it shifts the meaning of the other object. Researchers have given people fetishes for pennies and boots just by pairing them with images of sexy, naked women enough times. So, our brain is primed to attach that erotic meaning to anything if it is paired with something erotic.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Can a fetish develop out of a painful experience? And if it does, can it then be enjoyable for the person?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Can a fetish develop out of a painful experience? And if it does, can it then be enjoyable for the person?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It can develop from a painful experience. People often think of fetishes as a result of trauma and, in my research, it was mostly out of pleasurable moments. But definitely it can also come out of these negative childhood experiences. When that happens, the person needs to work on parsing out the negative experience from their personal desire. And often that takes some processing, some therapy, but you can get to a place where you can really enjoy something even if it’s sparked from a negative experience.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It can develop from a painful experience. People often think of fetishes as a result of trauma and, in my research, it was mostly out of pleasurable moments. But definitely it can also come out of these negative childhood experiences. When that happens, the person needs to work on parsing out the negative experience from their personal desire. And often that takes some processing, some therapy, but you can get to a place where you can really enjoy something even if it’s sparked from a negative experience.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You say we need to have a fetish revolution, and clearly your title points to that — “Smash taboos and celebrate what turns you on.” Why are fetishes so taboo and so stigmatized, and how would we have a revolution?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Even the word has a very negative connotation. We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip and is trying to get his way there. I think the reason for that is, very occasionally, there are people that act out fetishes in a way that’s unethical. The way the media works is, we point to the one-in-a-thousand story of someone who works at a shoe store just to get close to women’s feet unethically. There are also these stigmatized ideas of fetishes as something that’s practiced alone, as something that isolates you from others, and as something can be practiced unethically. I talk to a lot of people where they share that they have two selves — they have their fetish self and their other self. The reason it’s parsed out is because we still live in a society that’s struggling to become sex positive. And they feel that if they tell their partners, they’re going to be shamed. They feel like they kind of need to practice it alone. So, the revolution begins with education. It begins with sharing these stories, sharing what we know about where fetishes come from, and sharing that we’re actually all weirdos, so we’re actually very normal. Desire is strange and ridiculous.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Even the word has a very negative connotation. We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip and is trying to get his way there. I think the reason for that is, very occasionally, there are people that act out fetishes in a way that’s unethical. The way the media works is, we point to the one-in-a-thousand story of someone who works at a shoe store just to get close to women’s feet unethically. There are also these stigmatized ideas of fetishes as something that’s practiced alone, as something that isolates you from others, and as something can be practiced unethically. I talk to a lot of people where they share that they have two selves — they have their fetish self and their other self. The reason it’s parsed out is because we still live in a society that’s struggling to become sex positive. And they feel that if they tell their partners, they’re going to be shamed. They feel like they kind of need to practice it alone. So, the revolution begins with education. It begins with sharing these stories, sharing what we know about where fetishes come from, and sharing that we’re actually all weirdos, so we’re actually very normal. Desire is strange and ridiculous.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You write about one fetish, vore, and this is the fantasy of consuming or being consumed. What does that teach us about how a fetish works inside of our brain? Being consumed or consuming, how does that explain what fetishes are?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It’s something that comes out of culture, I believe. Think of “Honey, I Shrunk the Kids,” or all these tropes that we might be raised with where people are either getting swallowed or almost getting swallowed. There’s the “Magic School Bus” episode. It’s a very interesting conceptual concept. And for some people, that concept becomes eroticized. One of my favorite coaching sessions I ever had was with a couple who, one of them was into vore, and it was very much a strategy session of figuring out how we can make their living room look and feel as much like the inside of a stomach as possible, so they could role-play it. And it was just really fun and creative to think about: what could it smell like? And we were looking up, like, the esophagus and getting fun and creative with it. When your partner is on board, it can be a really fun experience to have.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It’s something that comes out of culture, I believe. Think of “Honey, I Shrunk the Kids,” or all these tropes that we might be raised with where people are either getting swallowed or almost getting swallowed. There’s the “Magic School Bus” episode. It’s a very interesting conceptual concept. And for some people, that concept becomes eroticized. One of my favorite coaching sessions I ever had was with a couple who, one of them was into vore, and it was very much a strategy session of figuring out how we can make their living room look and feel as much like the inside of a stomach as possible, so they could role-play it. And it was just really fun and creative to think about: what could it smell like? And we were looking up, like, the esophagus and getting fun and creative with it. When your partner is on board, it can be a really fun experience to have.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say you’re listening to this, and you know you have a fetish, a fascination with something, and you haven’t disclosed it with anyone. How do you get comfortable with it yourself and then begin to talk about it? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say you’re listening to this, and you know you have a fetish, a fascination with something, and you haven’t disclosed it with anyone. How do you get comfortable with it yourself and then begin to talk about it? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>First of all, you’rereally, really not alone. I think sometimes people feel really alone with their desires. The first step is to find your community online, because basically any desire that’s out there, there are a lot of enthusiasts. Think of the Looners, people who are turned on by balloons. There’s over 5,000 people on chat rooms. Finding your community is really helpful. Doing the self-work first is really important because if you disclose when you still feel a lot of shame around it, then you’re likely to bring it up being like, “Hey, there’s this thing I’m turned on by. It’s actually really embarrassing. I can’t even believe I’m telling you this. It’s kind of gross.” The chances for your partner to be open to it if that’s the way you’re bringing it up are very low.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>First of all, you’rereally, really not alone. I think sometimes people feel really alone with their desires. The first step is to find your community online, because basically any desire that’s out there, there are a lot of enthusiasts. Think of the Looners, people who are turned on by balloons. There’s over 5,000 people on chat rooms. Finding your community is really helpful. Doing the self-work first is really important because if you disclose when you still feel a lot of shame around it, then you’re likely to bring it up being like, “Hey, there’s this thing I’m turned on by. It’s actually really embarrassing. I can’t even believe I’m telling you this. It’s kind of gross.” The chances for your partner to be open to it if that’s the way you’re bringing it up are very low.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How should you bridge that conversation with your partner? How can you talk about it positively so they embrace it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I wouldn’t just spring it on them, and I don’t think it should be talked about during any sexual activity. First, create a container, so saying, “Hey, why don’t we talk about fantasies tomorrow night? Let’s have a date night. There’s something I’ve been excited to talk to you about.” Also ask your partner, “Hey, I want to make all your dreams come true. What are some desires that you have? How can we explore them?” A lot of work that I do with couples is figuring out sexy plans. So it’s like, “What are some new things we want to try in the next year? How do we actually make it happen?” The hardest part is that first step. Think a little bit about why you’re sharing it with your partner. Are you sharing it because you just want them to know that sometimes you watch this porn and you don’t want to be secretive about it? Are you letting them know because you have ideas of how you’d be interested in exploring it with them? For you, is this something that’s essential in a relationship to explore with a partner? Or is it something that would just add a little juice, but if your partner is not down, you also feel okay? Because I think that also might depend on how early you want to bring it up in a relationship. Because if for you, it’s a deal breaker, then in the first few dates, it’s helpful to just see if there’s compatibility there. Because I’ve worked with a few couples where they go too hard too fast. And then we have to work on processing that before figuring out where to go from there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I wouldn’t just spring it on them, and I don’t think it should be talked about during any sexual activity. First, create a container, so saying, “Hey, why don’t we talk about fantasies tomorrow night? Let’s have a date night. There’s something I’ve been excited to talk to you about.” Also ask your partner, “Hey, I want to make all your dreams come true. What are some desires that you have? How can we explore them?” A lot of work that I do with couples is figuring out sexy plans. So it’s like, “What are some new things we want to try in the next year? How do we actually make it happen?” The hardest part is that first step. Think a little bit about why you’re sharing it with your partner. Are you sharing it because you just want them to know that sometimes you watch this porn and you don’t want to be secretive about it? Are you letting them know because you have ideas of how you’d be interested in exploring it with them? For you, is this something that’s essential in a relationship to explore with a partner? Or is it something that would just add a little juice, but if your partner is not down, you also feel okay? Because I think that also might depend on how early you want to bring it up in a relationship. Because if for you, it’s a deal breaker, then in the first few dates, it’s helpful to just see if there’s compatibility there. Because I’ve worked with a few couples where they go too hard too fast. And then we have to work on processing that before figuring out where to go from there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What if your partner is not down with it? Do you work with couples who manage to have a thriving relationship where one partner has to practice their fetish outside of the primary partnership?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What if your partner is not down with it? Do you work with couples who manage to have a thriving relationship where one partner has to practice their fetish outside of the primary partnership?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I have worked with couples like that. It works well if there’s some type of open dynamic where they have someone else that they explore the fetish with, but they have more traditional sex with their partner. I think it gets tricky if people with more intense fetishes are less interested in having traditional sex. Then it’s sometimes harder for the partner that doesn’t have a fetish to have their pleasure. So that’s part of the navigation. But I’ve definitely worked with a lot of couples that have figured it out. The essence of it is if the partner can accept it and not make the other person feel bad for whatever turns them on, even if they don’t want to be a part of it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I have worked with couples like that. It works well if there’s some type of open dynamic where they have someone else that they explore the fetish with, but they have more traditional sex with their partner. I think it gets tricky if people with more intense fetishes are less interested in having traditional sex. Then it’s sometimes harder for the partner that doesn’t have a fetish to have their pleasure. So that’s part of the navigation. But I’ve definitely worked with a lot of couples that have figured it out. The essence of it is if the partner can accept it and not make the other person feel bad for whatever turns them on, even if they don’t want to be a part of it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What if your fetish is dangerous? You talk about people in the book who have a fire fetish. How do you navigate your fetish if it could potentially go really badly? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What if your fetish is dangerous? You talk about people in the book who have a fire fetish. How do you navigate your fetish if it could potentially go really badly? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I don’t think there’s one right answer. The fire enthusiast I interviewed would say, “There’s a bigger risk of getting in a car crash on your way than dying through fire exploration.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I don’t think there’s one right answer. The fire enthusiast I interviewed would say, “There’s a bigger risk of getting in a car crash on your way than dying through fire exploration.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I mean, that’s a fair argument, but I still don’t know if someone was like, “I want to light myself on fire while we’re having sex,” that I would be able to roll with it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I mean, that’s a fair argument, but I still don’t know if someone was like, “I want to light myself on fire while we’re having sex,” that I would be able to roll with it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>So I think with anything, we make decisions in our life that might cause harm. Similarly with smoking, with jumping out of planes. A lot of these dopamine-engaging experiences can have a level of harm. I think it’s up to the person to figure that out. If there’s a high chance of death, I think it’s unethical to do that. But if it’s like, one in a thousand chance you burn yourself and you’re in pain for a while. I think you can make that decision for yourself. I think what needs to be navigated is if you’re doing that with a partner and they’re not as excited as you are about it, I don’t think you should put yourself in danger to please a partner.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>So I think with anything, we make decisions in our life that might cause harm. Similarly with smoking, with jumping out of planes. A lot of these dopamine-engaging experiences can have a level of harm. I think it’s up to the person to figure that out. If there’s a high chance of death, I think it’s unethical to do that. But if it’s like, one in a thousand chance you burn yourself and you’re in pain for a while. I think you can make that decision for yourself. I think what needs to be navigated is if you’re doing that with a partner and they’re not as excited as you are about it, I don’t think you should put yourself in danger to please a partner.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you recommend people find more live humans to explore this with? You mentioned chat rooms, but how do we explore these person to person? And how do people begin to find out where their people are? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you recommend people find more live humans to explore this with? You mentioned chat rooms, but how do we explore these person to person? And how do people begin to find out where their people are? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Part of it is about expanding what might arouse you. People with fetishes sometimes have something specific that turns them on, but when they can be creative with it, it can be explored in a lot of different ways, and that’s why I want to create a space for all people with fetishes to talk. Right now, the communities are very dispersed, and they don’t really talk to each other or know much about each other. But there can be really interesting overlaps if people talk more about what is the underlying desire. For someone who is turned on by casts, maybe you realize you really like to take care of people, and you want to be in service. What are ways you can explore that? Maybe casts are sometimes part of that, but that doesn’t necessarily have to always be a part of it. If your mindset is that of being curious, because it’s so specific, the beginning of the exploration might be online. It might be going to sites like FetLife and seeing who has similar experiences. It also might be going to sex positive events in a place that seems safe, and a place where you can see where that overlap is and be creative about what that can look like. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Part of it is about expanding what might arouse you. People with fetishes sometimes have something specific that turns them on, but when they can be creative with it, it can be explored in a lot of different ways, and that’s why I want to create a space for all people with fetishes to talk. Right now, the communities are very dispersed, and they don’t really talk to each other or know much about each other. But there can be really interesting overlaps if people talk more about what is the underlying desire. For someone who is turned on by casts, maybe you realize you really like to take care of people, and you want to be in service. What are ways you can explore that? Maybe casts are sometimes part of that, but that doesn’t necessarily have to always be a part of it. If your mindset is that of being curious, because it’s so specific, the beginning of the exploration might be online. It might be going to sites like FetLife and seeing who has similar experiences. It also might be going to sex positive events in a place that seems safe, and a place where you can see where that overlap is and be creative about what that can look like. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You close your book with one of the most surprising fetishes that you have come across, and it’s a very affirming story. Can you tell us about Randy? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You close your book with one of the most surprising fetishes that you have come across, and it’s a very affirming story. Can you tell us about Randy? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Randy is a great story. Randy is turned on by wet floor signs, and it’s really interesting because he gave himself the fetish through creating art around it. There was a character in a show he was in that had a wet floor sign hat. Rule 34 says if anything exists, there’s porn of it. But Randy realized that there wasn’t any wet floor sign porn. So he was like, “I’m going to be a revolutionary. I’m going to change that. I’m going to make some porn.” And in making the porn, he came to associate desire with what he was drawing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Randy is a great story. Randy is turned on by wet floor signs, and it’s really interesting because he gave himself the fetish through creating art around it. There was a character in a show he was in that had a wet floor sign hat. Rule 34 says if anything exists, there’s porn of it. But Randy realized that there wasn’t any wet floor sign porn. So he was like, “I’m going to be a revolutionary. I’m going to change that. I’m going to make some porn.” And in making the porn, he came to associate desire with what he was drawing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Any final words of advice for listeners in terms of giving themselves permission to explore this world? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Any final words of advice for listeners in terms of giving themselves permission to explore this world? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>We spend much of our lives feeling like if we’re fully honest about whatever’s going on in our brain and we say it out loud, we won’t be accepted. But I do think that with the right people, you can be accepted for what it is that excites you. And it starts with one brave friend to bring up a topic at dinner, to get deeper, to be vulnerable and open. I hope that this book is a step towards us all being more open to talking about our desires, not just with our partners, but with other people, because life’s too short to feel alone. No matter who your people are, they’re out there. I’ve worked with so many people who spent 20 years feeling alone before they started taking the steps. And you need to wait. You can start today.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>We spend much of our lives feeling like if we’re fully honest about whatever’s going on in our brain and we say it out loud, we won’t be accepted. But I do think that with the right people, you can be accepted for what it is that excites you. And it starts with one brave friend to bring up a topic at dinner, to get deeper, to be vulnerable and open. I hope that this book is a step towards us all being more open to talking about our desires, not just with our partners, but with other people, because life’s too short to feel alone. No matter who your people are, they’re out there. I’ve worked with so many people who spent 20 years feeling alone before they started taking the steps. And you need to wait. You can start today.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you, Niki. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you, Niki. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Thanks so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Thanks so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom is a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book, “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” It’s out in October. Inside Love is a production of KQED, and we’d love to hear what you think. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom is a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book, “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” It’s out in October. Inside Love is a production of KQED, and we’d love to hear what you think. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Niki Davis-Fainbloom, author of the forthcoming book \"Fetish,\" is calling for a fetish revolution. She wants us to rethink what we call strange, or kinky, so we can normalize all types of desire. \n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Desire is strange and ridiculous,” according to Niki Davis-Fainbloom, a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some people are turned on by feet or latex. Others by sneezing, even quicksand. Fetishes can seem forbidden or even disturbing. But what makes one desire “normal” and another a fetish? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip,” Davis-Fainbloom said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She recommends a fetish revolution so people can enthusiastically embrace what lights them up. We’ll talk to her about what that would look like. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Learn more about Niki Davis-Fainbloom and her work \u003ca href=\"https://www.nikidavisf.com/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom,\u003c/strong> sex educator; author, “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Can you define fetish so we know exactly what we’re talking about?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I think of a fetish as an erotic focus on something. It can be an object, a body part, a body action, and it’s something that most of the population doesn’t consider to be sexual, but the person finds it sexual. One thing that I found in my research that is different from what we often think about when we think about fetishes is that people with fetishes may have multiple erotic interests. It’s not necessarily the only thing that turns them on. I interviewed someone with a sneeze fetish, and they said they’re turned on by sneezes, long makeout sessions and massages. So, it can be one of many things that they find exciting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What differentiates it from a preference is that they tend to be focused on and excited about it. I have someone on my Instagram who has a quicksand fetish, and anytime I post anything remotely in nature, he’s like, “I wonder what it would be like if there was quicksand there,” or, “Kind of looks like quicksand.” You can just tell that they’re enthusiastic about what their desire is, similar to the way a Trekkie might be, or someone who’s super into something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there usually an event that happened or some time that it sparked in them? Or is it unexplainable? How do people trace why they have the fetish they do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>That was the most interesting parts of my research — asking people where it came from. For some people, it was just a fascination at first. It wasn’t erotic. It was just, “Oh, I really like playing in quicksand,” or, “I’m kind of interested in this material,” and as their sexuality developed, so too did they find ways to use this fascination in a sexual way. But for others, it can be more that something happened to get paired with their early sexual experiences. So, if the first time they discovered self-pleasure, they discovered it in their mom’s closet where there was a bunch of silk around, then it could be that through that association, moving forward in their lives, silk is something they find erotic. You’d call that classical conditioning, where there’s something that initially is random, and then because it’s paired with something that has such a strong emotional salience, it shifts the meaning of the other object. Researchers have given people fetishes for pennies and boots just by pairing them with images of sexy, naked women enough times. So, our brain is primed to attach that erotic meaning to anything if it is paired with something erotic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Can a fetish develop out of a painful experience? And if it does, can it then be enjoyable for the person?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It can develop from a painful experience. People often think of fetishes as a result of trauma and, in my research, it was mostly out of pleasurable moments. But definitely it can also come out of these negative childhood experiences. When that happens, the person needs to work on parsing out the negative experience from their personal desire. And often that takes some processing, some therapy, but you can get to a place where you can really enjoy something even if it’s sparked from a negative experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You say we need to have a fetish revolution, and clearly your title points to that — “Smash taboos and celebrate what turns you on.” Why are fetishes so taboo and so stigmatized, and how would we have a revolution?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Even the word has a very negative connotation. We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip and is trying to get his way there. I think the reason for that is, very occasionally, there are people that act out fetishes in a way that’s unethical. The way the media works is, we point to the one-in-a-thousand story of someone who works at a shoe store just to get close to women’s feet unethically. There are also these stigmatized ideas of fetishes as something that’s practiced alone, as something that isolates you from others, and as something can be practiced unethically. I talk to a lot of people where they share that they have two selves — they have their fetish self and their other self. The reason it’s parsed out is because we still live in a society that’s struggling to become sex positive. And they feel that if they tell their partners, they’re going to be shamed. They feel like they kind of need to practice it alone. So, the revolution begins with education. It begins with sharing these stories, sharing what we know about where fetishes come from, and sharing that we’re actually all weirdos, so we’re actually very normal. Desire is strange and ridiculous.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You write about one fetish, vore, and this is the fantasy of consuming or being consumed. What does that teach us about how a fetish works inside of our brain? Being consumed or consuming, how does that explain what fetishes are?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It’s something that comes out of culture, I believe. Think of “Honey, I Shrunk the Kids,” or all these tropes that we might be raised with where people are either getting swallowed or almost getting swallowed. There’s the “Magic School Bus” episode. It’s a very interesting conceptual concept. And for some people, that concept becomes eroticized. One of my favorite coaching sessions I ever had was with a couple who, one of them was into vore, and it was very much a strategy session of figuring out how we can make their living room look and feel as much like the inside of a stomach as possible, so they could role-play it. And it was just really fun and creative to think about: what could it smell like? And we were looking up, like, the esophagus and getting fun and creative with it. When your partner is on board, it can be a really fun experience to have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say you’re listening to this, and you know you have a fetish, a fascination with something, and you haven’t disclosed it with anyone. How do you get comfortable with it yourself and then begin to talk about it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>First of all, you’rereally, really not alone. I think sometimes people feel really alone with their desires. The first step is to find your community online, because basically any desire that’s out there, there are a lot of enthusiasts. Think of the Looners, people who are turned on by balloons. There’s over 5,000 people on chat rooms. Finding your community is really helpful. Doing the self-work first is really important because if you disclose when you still feel a lot of shame around it, then you’re likely to bring it up being like, “Hey, there’s this thing I’m turned on by. It’s actually really embarrassing. I can’t even believe I’m telling you this. It’s kind of gross.” The chances for your partner to be open to it if that’s the way you’re bringing it up are very low.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How should you bridge that conversation with your partner? How can you talk about it positively so they embrace it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I wouldn’t just spring it on them, and I don’t think it should be talked about during any sexual activity. First, create a container, so saying, “Hey, why don’t we talk about fantasies tomorrow night? Let’s have a date night. There’s something I’ve been excited to talk to you about.” Also ask your partner, “Hey, I want to make all your dreams come true. What are some desires that you have? How can we explore them?” A lot of work that I do with couples is figuring out sexy plans. So it’s like, “What are some new things we want to try in the next year? How do we actually make it happen?” The hardest part is that first step. Think a little bit about why you’re sharing it with your partner. Are you sharing it because you just want them to know that sometimes you watch this porn and you don’t want to be secretive about it? Are you letting them know because you have ideas of how you’d be interested in exploring it with them? For you, is this something that’s essential in a relationship to explore with a partner? Or is it something that would just add a little juice, but if your partner is not down, you also feel okay? Because I think that also might depend on how early you want to bring it up in a relationship. Because if for you, it’s a deal breaker, then in the first few dates, it’s helpful to just see if there’s compatibility there. Because I’ve worked with a few couples where they go too hard too fast. And then we have to work on processing that before figuring out where to go from there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What if your partner is not down with it? Do you work with couples who manage to have a thriving relationship where one partner has to practice their fetish outside of the primary partnership?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I have worked with couples like that. It works well if there’s some type of open dynamic where they have someone else that they explore the fetish with, but they have more traditional sex with their partner. I think it gets tricky if people with more intense fetishes are less interested in having traditional sex. Then it’s sometimes harder for the partner that doesn’t have a fetish to have their pleasure. So that’s part of the navigation. But I’ve definitely worked with a lot of couples that have figured it out. The essence of it is if the partner can accept it and not make the other person feel bad for whatever turns them on, even if they don’t want to be a part of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What if your fetish is dangerous? You talk about people in the book who have a fire fetish. How do you navigate your fetish if it could potentially go really badly? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I don’t think there’s one right answer. The fire enthusiast I interviewed would say, “There’s a bigger risk of getting in a car crash on your way than dying through fire exploration.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I mean, that’s a fair argument, but I still don’t know if someone was like, “I want to light myself on fire while we’re having sex,” that I would be able to roll with it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>So I think with anything, we make decisions in our life that might cause harm. Similarly with smoking, with jumping out of planes. A lot of these dopamine-engaging experiences can have a level of harm. I think it’s up to the person to figure that out. If there’s a high chance of death, I think it’s unethical to do that. But if it’s like, one in a thousand chance you burn yourself and you’re in pain for a while. I think you can make that decision for yourself. I think what needs to be navigated is if you’re doing that with a partner and they’re not as excited as you are about it, I don’t think you should put yourself in danger to please a partner.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you recommend people find more live humans to explore this with? You mentioned chat rooms, but how do we explore these person to person? And how do people begin to find out where their people are? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Part of it is about expanding what might arouse you. People with fetishes sometimes have something specific that turns them on, but when they can be creative with it, it can be explored in a lot of different ways, and that’s why I want to create a space for all people with fetishes to talk. Right now, the communities are very dispersed, and they don’t really talk to each other or know much about each other. But there can be really interesting overlaps if people talk more about what is the underlying desire. For someone who is turned on by casts, maybe you realize you really like to take care of people, and you want to be in service. What are ways you can explore that? Maybe casts are sometimes part of that, but that doesn’t necessarily have to always be a part of it. If your mindset is that of being curious, because it’s so specific, the beginning of the exploration might be online. It might be going to sites like FetLife and seeing who has similar experiences. It also might be going to sex positive events in a place that seems safe, and a place where you can see where that overlap is and be creative about what that can look like. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You close your book with one of the most surprising fetishes that you have come across, and it’s a very affirming story. Can you tell us about Randy? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Randy is a great story. Randy is turned on by wet floor signs, and it’s really interesting because he gave himself the fetish through creating art around it. There was a character in a show he was in that had a wet floor sign hat. Rule 34 says if anything exists, there’s porn of it. But Randy realized that there wasn’t any wet floor sign porn. So he was like, “I’m going to be a revolutionary. I’m going to change that. I’m going to make some porn.” And in making the porn, he came to associate desire with what he was drawing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Any final words of advice for listeners in terms of giving themselves permission to explore this world? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>We spend much of our lives feeling like if we’re fully honest about whatever’s going on in our brain and we say it out loud, we won’t be accepted. But I do think that with the right people, you can be accepted for what it is that excites you. And it starts with one brave friend to bring up a topic at dinner, to get deeper, to be vulnerable and open. I hope that this book is a step towards us all being more open to talking about our desires, not just with our partners, but with other people, because life’s too short to feel alone. No matter who your people are, they’re out there. I’ve worked with so many people who spent 20 years feeling alone before they started taking the steps. And you need to wait. You can start today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you, Niki. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Thanks so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom is a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book, “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” It’s out in October. Inside Love is a production of KQED, and we’d love to hear what you think. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Influencers Are Peddling Peptides, but Is Tanmaxxing Worth the Risk?",
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"headTitle": "Influencers Are Peddling Peptides, but Is Tanmaxxing Worth the Risk? | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Guests:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ucsfhealth.org/providers/sungat-grewal\">Dr. Sungat Grewal\u003c/a>, double board-certified dermatologist and Mohs surgeon\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.carencampbellmd.com/?srsltid=AU7gw4XTOrftqgnQy6ysplZ8IdAO4P-TLRwup140ITmchvEhXpO36qrR\">Dr. Caren Campbell\u003c/a>, board-certified dermatologist\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/staff/sarah-todd/\">Sarah Todd\u003c/a>, reporter for \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/24/fda-peptide-compounding-panel-backs-epitalon-rejects-emideltide/\">FDA advisory panel narrowly rejects compounding of one peptide, backs two others\u003c/a> — Lizzy Lawrence and Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/23/fda-panel-okays-peptides-compound-pharmacies-bpc-157-kpv/\">FDA panel backs compounded BPC-157, KPV peptides in win for RFK Jr.\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd and Lizzy Lawrence, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.elle.com/beauty/health-fitness/a73232620/tanmaxxing-trend-explained-interview-2026/\">Is Tanmaxxing an Addiction? A Dermatologist and Psychologist Explains\u003c/a> — Katie Berohn, \u003cem>ELLE\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.gq.com/story/inside-the-weird-new-world-of-peptide-tanning\">Inside the Weird New World of Peptide Tanning\u003c/a> — Savannah Sobrevilla, \u003cem>GQ\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2026/06/29/barbie-drug-peptide-shot-tan\">Melanotan: The “Barbie drug” tanning peptide, explained\u003c/a> — Carly Mallenbaum, \u003cem>Axios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/live-well/longevity/story/tanning-peptides-melanotan-vyleesi-pt141\">Inside the Viral Tanning Peptide That Accidentally Created Vyleesi’s FDA-Approved Low Sex Drive Drug\u003c/a> — Sara Kitnick, \u003cem>LA Times Studios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.allure.com/story/fda-peptide-ban-reversal\">The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry\u003c/a> — Kara Nesvig, \u003cem>Allure\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.skincancer.org/press/the-skin-cancer-foundation-issues-warning-regarding-melanotan-ii/\">The Skin Cancer Foundation Issues Warning Regarding Melanotan II\u003c/a> — Deborah S. Sarnoff, MD, \u003cem>Skin Cancer Foundation\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Host, Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Can I be honest? I am pretty vain.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I take my skincare routine very seriously: Prescription-strength azelaic acid in the morning, and prescription-strength tretinoin at night. Lots of sunscreen and moisturizer and barrier creams in between, and every other night, I skip the tretinoin and spend three minutes under a red light mask. If I’m feeling indulgent, I’ll throw in a Korean gel mask and a jade roller. Do those do anything? I honestly can’t tell. But it feels nice! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I wouldn’t call myself a looksmaxxer, but I do spend a good amount of time on these beautification rituals. And as a woman who exists on the internet, I feel like my For You Page is constantly lobbing beauty trends at me, and like I’m always trying to avoid getting sucked into yet another fad. I have tried so many serums and face masks and supplements before finally settling into what I consider to be a pretty pared down beauty regiment. But the one thing I haven’t tried yet is a peptide. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It seems like everyone is on them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clips of influencers raving about peptides]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: This is, in my opinion, the most slept-on peptide on the market today. There’s two main benefits that have been life-changing for me . \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: You’re telling me there’s a botox alternative that’s easier on your wallet? Whoa! Let’s talk about Snap-8, the peptide that targets wrinkles without the needles. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Peptides are chemical signals that your body naturally makes to regulate all kinds of bodily functions, like digestion and recovery. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> So peptides are like text messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Sungat Grewal is a double board certified dermatologist and skin cancer surgeon. She’s the co-director of Laser Surgery and Cosmetic Dermatology at UCSF. And she’s been keeping an eye on the synthetic peptides people are taking to boost their bodies’ natural processes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>They’re not necessarily good or bad inherently, but it depends on who’s sending the message, what the message is, and who receives it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I’m not just talking about GLP-1s. Peptide stacking is really in right now. Retatrutide and Tesamorelin for weight loss, Ipamorelin for muscle growth, the “Wolverine Stack” of BPC-157 and TB-500 to boost healing after a gym sesh. If you throw in the copper peptide GHK-Cu, you’ve got a “Glow Stack,” the hot girl combo optimized for anti-aging collagen production. It’s a lot, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some of these compounds are not cleared by the FDA, so the way people get a hold of them is a legal hit or miss. But peptides remain incredibly popular despite the gray market. And there’s one that’s \u003cem>really\u003c/em> blown up this summer: Melanotan II. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cbr>[Clip from Youtube User @SpaandTell]\u003cbr>Kylie says hi Kim your tan looks great. Thank you! I’ve been using the melanotan II peptide over the last month, and I’ve been going outside, and it’s been working like a charm, so excited. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>MT-2 for short — also known as “The Barbie peptide” or “the vacation drug.” It makes you tan, skinny, and horny (it’s a libido booster) — with no harmful UV exposure required. But Dr. Grewal says it also comes with legitimately concerning risks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty scary and it’s very sad, you know, when, um, people are chasing aesthetic goals and are being misdirected and exposing themselves to unknown risks or known risks, not only in the moment, but for future and forever forward, right? Some of these impacts have long-lasting effects.\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re diving into the world of peptides: the dangers of tanmaxxing despite the influencer promotion, and RFK Jr’s crusade to reverse the peptide bans in the U.S. What does the peptide craze say about Americans’ relationship with health and risk? Let’s jump in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re starting with a new tab. What is melanotan?\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m part of a few weddings this year, and I wanted to look a little more sunkissed. But I’m inside like, all the time, and I have no interest in tanning beds because I don’t want to wrinkle. Again, vain! Sorry! So I started looking into self tanners. I looked up a few beauty influencers who reviewed tanning lotions … and that’s when my feed was inundated with people\u003cs> \u003c/s>recommending this miracle drug: MT-2.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @toxdaddy]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Oh man, I’m super excited. I just got Melanotan 2 this morning and I’m really excited to try it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @carlysnaxwell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I started taking MT2. I’m tan. I haven’t gone bed tanning in a while… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @itsdevync]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I’m now at two months of taking it. I’m obsessed. My tan is only getting better … \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Youtube user@SpaandTell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I am crazy impressed by this – by this, I mean, the Melanotan 2 peptide.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And it’s not just the tan that makes it so appealing. Dr. Grewal says Melanotan II also has some specific side effects…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong> It’s marketed as the Barbie peptide because tanning might be the effect that you’re shopping for, but it’s not the only effect and some of them can translate into, um, increased libido or decreased appetite. \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>How does it do all that? Well, let’s talk about how peptides work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Again, peptides are the chemical signals for your body to perform certain functions. Your body has tons of receptors, and peptides can target specific ones, almost like sending a text to a specific phone number. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>You can think about two kinds, like natural versus synthetic. So our body makes peptides naturally. Some common examples would be like insulin or GLP-1. And synthetically, you know, we can create, uh, synthetic peptides to mimic those that are made naturally in the body to get a specific effect\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Melanotan I and Melanotan II are synthetic peptides that…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> …mimic a naturally occurring peptide in the body called alpha-MSH or melanocyte-stimulating hormone. And so there are receptors that are in numerous places in the body called melanocortin receptors that can respond to this signal or chain of events.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are five types of melanocortin receptors in the body. The first regulates hair and skin pigmentation, and it’s what triggers tans. And it’s also really important to understand what getting tan \u003cem>really\u003c/em> means for your body. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> It’s literally your nucleus and your cell saying, “Oh my God, save my DNA.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung : \u003c/strong>This is Dr. Caren Campbell, a board certified dermatologist who practices medical, surgical, and cosmetic dermatology in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell: \u003c/strong>You know, it’s putting an umbrella over it. Your cell is saying, like, “Help me. Protect my DNA so I don’t mutate and cause cancer.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That little umbrella is called eumelanin, and it produces brown and black pigments in the body. It’s what causes darker colors in skin, eyes, and hair. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So Melanotan I sends a text to that first melanocortin receptor, which tells your cells to pop their little umbrellas up to protect their DNA … which is what triggers a tan, without actual UV exposure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Melanotan I is actually FDA-approved for a very, very specific, very rare skin condition that causes extreme sensitivity to light.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Erythropoietic protoporphyria\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or EPP for short. It’s actually so rare that Dr. Grewal has never seen the condition in her medical career. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Its incidence has been estimated at two to five cases per million people. You would know if you had this because you have symptoms when you’re a young child. Children have very severe, painful, uh, photosensitivity after exposure to sunlight or even visible light, which can come from even indoor lights, laptop screens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>EPP causes extreme swelling, burning, and pain when exposed to certain light. So the FDA approved a prescription implant of Melanotan I for people with EPP, which stimulates their bodies to produce eumelanin. These little cell umbrellas absorb that light before it can damage their skin. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, Melanotan II, which is the hot one right now, sends a group text to that first receptor. But remember, there are \u003cem>5\u003c/em> melanocortin receptors in the body. So it’s also sending that text to receptors three, four, and five as well. And these aren’t just in the skin. They’re all over the body, including in the central nervous system, which is why MT-2 can cause appetite suppression and boost libido. And because these receptors are all over the body, MT-2 can also cause unpredictable systemic changes … with unpleasant and even dangerous symptoms. Here’s Dr. Campbell again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> In men, that can lead to potentially what’s called priapism, which is where you have an erection that, you know, doesn’t go away, and there was a, a case report of someone needing to have that surgically drained in the emergency room.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, it, it also can cause nausea and vomiting. It’s also stimulates our sympathetic nervous system, which you can think about that like your fight or flight. So anything you needed to, like, run away from a predator, it does. So it dilates your pupils so you can see better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It causes, you know, increased heart rate so you can get running. It causes hypertension ’cause it constricts your blood vessels. Um, so that fight or flight response can be elevated and you can get what’s called rhabdomyolysis, which is where you get muscle breakdown, and it can be very dangerous, um, life-threatening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So those side effects are pretty rough. But Dr. Grewal says there’s also this main one … \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> We have seen reports of patients like breaking out in moles, for example, and breaking out in atypical or what we call funky looking moles, right? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @\u003c/em>cablequeencourt]\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Let’s count how many moles we have on our face since taking MT2. So this one’s new. This is new …Yeah, um, and that’s not including what’s going on on my body….\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Moles are clusters of melanocytes, the skin cells that make pigment. Most are totally benign. But like Dr. Grewal said, Melanotan moles are … funky.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Because it’s stimulating the same pathway that can eventually lead to melanoma. And again, we don’t have causation yet, but we do not have long-term data. And so why would you subject yourself to that risk when you can use other methods to tan the skin safely without breaking out in moles? And the moles are not just darker, the moles, like, look concerning. They, they often have atypical features.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Those little cell umbrellas can only protect so much. And if you’re exposing them to harmful UV rays over and over again, they can mutate and become cancerous. One of the ways dermatologists evaluate moles for cancer is by checking if they’ve evolved — if they’re getting bigger, darker, and wonkier. This isn’t as much of a concern for patients who are prescribed MT-1 for EPP, since they’re generally not engaging in risky behavior that causes additional UV damage — like intentionally tanning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But when it comes to the tanmaxxers … \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @sooshbrah]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>This is 2021, 2022, I was doing 500 micrograms of Melanotan and I was jumping in the tanning bed for 15 minutes. I literally changed race in like three sessions. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> I can’t say for certain that, you know, melanotan causes melanoma. But we do know based on what are, again, called case [00:23:00] reports, where we don’t have large numbers, but we have good evidence of people who’ve started melanotan and then as soon as two weeks noticed almost immediate darkening and irregularity of their moles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Campbell said that in this case report, one of the patients had used tanning beds and melanotan at the same time, and had five new moles biopsied. All five were cancerous. And there aren’t many clinical studies on the effects of long-term melanotan use, in a broad population of users who don’t have EPP. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Melanotan II was actually developed in the late 80s to early 90s, and in the early 2000s, researchers began testing it to treat sexual dysfunction. But Dr. Grewal says there’s a reason it never made it to market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Usually when a peptide or any product is on its way to becoming a drug, it goes through rigorous testing, and pharmaceuticals would love to sell it because they’re gonna profit immensely. So usually when it drops off the track, it’s because either it’s not providing the results that they’re hoping for or the safety is not promising\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Despite that, both MT-1 and MT-2 are still wildly popular on the gray market, as both a nasal spray and an injectable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately I am not surprised because, you know, the story of wanting tanner skin is a story we’ve heard before. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, you know, first it was tanning beds, now we know how dangerous those are in terms of increasing melanoma risk even with one use, you know, before the age of 30. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And as is the case with many unregulated, technically illegal peptides, vendors can sell them around the US thanks to a handy loophole: the “Research Use Only” pathway. Essentially saying, this product legally isn’t for human consumption, with no quality guarantee or regulatory oversight. But there’s really nothing that can stop buyers from using it on themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> You have to remember that when it’s not FDA regulated, you really have no idea what’s in the bottle. What you’re getting in your bottle is like a crapshoot. So, you know, and historically we’ve seen issues with, um, sterility of products, contamination with unregulated products, and the concentration and the purity is also unknown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that alone is like a huge reason why I would never advise anyone to take a non FDA-approved medication, whether or not it’s a peptide, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So knowing all of these risks, both healthwise and lookswise, why are people bent on taking Melanotan? And this is just one of many unregulated, very popular peptides! What’s driving the peptide boom in spite of medical experts’ warnings?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That is a whole new tab… for after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you! To become a member and support the show, go to donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Ok, after the break: we’re diving into medical libertarianism. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome back! Time to open a new tab. Peptides and medical libertarianism. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>RFK Jr, the vaccine denier and guy in charge of our entire country’s health department, is also a pep pusher. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Yeah I mean I’m a big fan of peptides. I’ve used them myself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was RFK Jr on Joe Rogan’s podcast earlier this year, where he spoke about the proliferation of unregulated peptides. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>A black market came out and the black market is run by companies that say they’re making the peptides for animal use or research purposes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So basically when you buy peptides online you don’t have any guarantees about the safety and the quality of what you’re buying. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Sarah Todd, a reporter at STAT News. She covers the business of health, which means she’s also been following the gray market peptide industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> New York Magazine had a bunch of peptides tested and found that about a third of them were mislabeled or under or overdosed or contaminated by bacteria. So those are all some of the potential health risks that you run into when you’re getting them off the gray and black market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that hasn’t diminished people’s appetite for peptides. Sarah says this all falls in line with a concept called “medical libertarianism” — the idea that we should be allowed to do whatever we want with our bodies regardless of what the government or medical establishment says.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that extends to taking drugs like peptides that don’t have a lot of data behind them when it comes to their impacts on humans, either their benefits or their potential risks. But the idea with medical libertarianism is, like, that’s my choice, and if I’m willing to put my body on the line for the hopeful benefits that I can get, then I should be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s a very American mindset. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> It really goes along with this sort of all-American idea that we can control our own destinies and make our own choices, right? And a sort of suspicion about the government’s role in overseeing people’s lives, a desire to, you know, ward off the idea of the nanny state and the idea that people should be able to chase their own pursuit of happiness and the American dream.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if that includes self-optimizing your body and your health, then that’s something that people should be allowed to do, would be the argument that these people are making.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Americans have always had this attitude about health. In the 1970s, there was a huge backlash from the public when the government tried to regulate vitamin and supplement industries…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People wrote in and said, “Don’t take my vitamins away, “ and we wound up with the situation that we have today, where they’re still many people would argue, uh, largely unregulated or very under-regulated. I think that people really wanted to hold on to these kinds of products. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been ebbs and flows to medical libertarianism throughout modern American history. And then the COVID 19 pandemic hit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People started self-experimenting with all kinds of things, like everything from ivermectin, which you m- may remember, to some sort of herbal medicines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> On one hand, you had a lot of interest in sort of like experimentation with drugs to see what you could do to improve your own health, protect yourself potentially from COVID in various ways. We also saw a big boom in the rise of social media health influencers, health and wellness influencers during this time as well, and I think that has played a huge role.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Many of the sort of man-fluencers like Joe Rogan and, and Gary Brecka and Andrew Huberman were already popular pre-pandemic, but sort of like became even more so, gained huge followings during, and I think that that’s had a lot to do with the sort of rising awareness of peptides and interest in trying them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>People started taking this “folk pharmacology” approach to medicine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So that term folk pharmacology was mentioned by a researcher I spoke with for a story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His name is Luke Turnock, and he talked about how first it sort of started, uh, with peptides in the gym, with bodybuilders and powerlifters sort of sharing, like, “Oh, this, this drug is really helping me recover from this industry. This drug is making me stronger.” But he applies that to the way that people talk about peptides in online spaces and forums as well, where people are generally a lot more likely to believe somebody else on a Reddit forum than they might be to listen to a researcher who’s telling them there’s not enough data to support taking these drugs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think it, it has to do with some of the decline of trust in science, and then it also has to do with the sort of, like, just stock that we put in recommendations from other people who we perceive as regular people, whether that’s, like, you know, somebody telling us, like, “Oh, I love this vacuum,” or in this case, “I love my Wolverine stack,” you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Make American Healthy Again movement is also pretty staunchly anti-vaccine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When I first started thinking about this, I was like, “This seems like a huge contradiction.” I didn’t understand why the MAHA movement would be so skeptical toward vaccines and yet really welcoming toward peptides. But I think it comes back to what we were talking about with medical libertarianism.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lot of the MAHA people don’t necessarily want nobody to get vaccines. They say they are more wary of certain vaccine mandates. So there the idea again is like, “Don’t tell me what to do with my own body. It should be my choice whether or not I take it.” Peptides, again, they’re saying they don’t want everybody to have to take peptides.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They just wanna be able to take peptides if they want to. So that’s where it all sort of begins to make sense in an overall worldview.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this brand of medical libertarianism is applied pretty inconsistently. RFK Jr’s MAHA agenda is actively restricting access to trans healthcare, birth control, and abortion — issues that revolve around bodily autonomy. But when it comes to peptides? They believe the government should be hands-off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It goes back to a Biden-era decision.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So back in 2023, the Biden administration moved a bunch of peptides into a different category. That meant that compounding pharmacies could no longer produce them, and their reasons were basically, you know, what we’ve been talking about the typical warnings that we get from the medical community, that these drugs haven’t been studied enough to be able to say definitively that they are either going to do what they promise they’ll do or that they won’t cause some other big problem like cancer as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that was the reason for moving over the classification. Now what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is looking to do is to reclassify some of those peptides so the compounding pharmacies can indeed begin producing them again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which means that they can be legally produced in the US, under \u003cem>some\u003c/em> regulatory oversight — unlike the facilities that are producing gray market peptides now. Compounding pharmacies at least have to be licensed and routinely inspected through state pharmacy boards. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>RFK JR. has been on this crusade to get the FDA to lift this Biden-era peptide ban — which he talked about on that same Joe Rogan podcast episode.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> He basically said that he is a fan of peptides. He wants to make them more accessible via compounding pharmacies. Uh, but the reason he says is not necessarily he understands that not all the science and data is out there on peptides yet, but he says that it’s gonna be safer for people to get them from compounding pharmacies than to get them off the gray and black market, and that’s sort of his logic for, for why it would make sense to, to reclassify them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that is a new tab. Are peptides legal now? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I\u003c/strong>t’s complicated. We’re gonna start by explaining different kinds of pharmacies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, typical pharmacies make and dispense FDA-approved drugs. There are the retail pharmacies that sell over-the-counter allergy meds or fill your prescriptions for blood pressure pills. There are specialty pharmacies that manage medications for very rare, highly complex health conditions, which might require stricter protocols for handling, storing, and administering meds. Both of these types of pharmacies mainly deal with medications that have already been manufactured. The pharmacy makes sure they’re giving patients the right dosage and right amount of pre-made meds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, compounding pharmacies mix the medications themselves. There are lots of reasons why people use them: maybe the commercial version of the drug includes ingredients they’re allergic to, or maybe they need a cream, not a gel. Maybe the only way to get the right dosage is by getting a custom mix. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Sometimes there are drug shortages, and compounding pharmacies can be an alternative as well then because they can custom make a particular drug that maybe, uh, isn’t available at the moment. It might also be, as was the case with GLP-1 weight loss drugs, uh, compounding pharmacies were making a lot of, uh, GLP-1 drugs that were alternatives to the more expensive ones, like Ozempic and Wegovy, and the idea h- here was, like, you sacrifice the sort of name brand, uh, aspect, but then you, you could get the, the drugs that would have, hopefully, the same effects for cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that’s another reason why people might turn to compounding pharmacies as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In recent years, compounding pharmacies have become wildly lucrative, thanks to the rise of for-profit telehealth. A lot of telehealth companies have in-house compounding pharmacies, and they sell all kinds of prescription meds: personalized topical creams with Tretinoin and Niacinamide for acne, chewable tablets of Finasteride and Minoxidil for hair loss, low-dose Vardenafil for erectile dysfunction, custom-mixed hormone replacement suppositories for menopause, and now, compounded GLP-1s for weight loss. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Compounding pharmacies can legally make anything … as long the ingredients they’re working are good with the FDA. The final product doesn’t have to be FDA-approved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The drugs that a compounding pharmacy makes do not necessarily have to have been authorized by the FDA. Um, as long as, you know, they have a prescription for that drug from a healthcare provider, they will, will produce the drugs. And then there’s certain, uh, substances that they’re not allowed to make, such as the peptides that are currently on the 503B substances list. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are 19 peptides on that 503B substances list, including Melanotan II. Earlier this year, the FDA announced that they were going to consider reclassifying \u003cem>some\u003c/em> of those banned peptides. This is not the same as FDA approval. They haven’t gone through clinical trials that guarantee safety or efficacy, and the FDA doesn’t verify the quality before they hit the market. But if they are reclassified, that means that compounding pharmacies are allowed to make and distribute medications that contain them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The argument that was probably most common from the people on the side of making peptides more accessible via compounding pharmacies was that it’s true that we don’t have all the data yet, and we do need more of it. However, we really don’t want people getting these drugs off the gray and black market because of the other health risks, you know, the risks of contamination, the risk of mislabeled drugs where you think that you’re getting one thing, you’re actually getting something else. And they basically said patients are demanding these drugs and we should make sure that if they’re going to take them, they’re taking it the safest way they can.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In other words, it’s better to have Americans sourcing their peptides from regulated facilities, rather than overseas labs that may not be held to the same standards of sterility and quality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In July, an FDA advisory panel met to discuss whether or not to recommend reclassification for seven peptides.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The advisory panel itself was really controversial. So this is a group of people who aren’t members of the FDA themselves, and the FDA doesn’t have to follow their recommendations, but typically, their recommendations carry a lot of weight, and typically, an advisory panel is made up of doctors, researchers, other experts in their field.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In this case the people who were appointed to the panel, a lot of them were people who had some sort of potential conflict of interest or stake in the outcome of the decision on peptides, people who are prescribing peptides themselves, people who are you know, affiliated with compounding pharmacies in some way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that immediately raised a lot of red flags for critics who said, “How can we trust the advice of an advisory panel if it’s people who would potentially stand to profit from what the outcome is?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pro-peptide crowd on the panel pointed out that patients are demanding these drugs, and that \u003cem>some \u003c/em>regulatory oversight is better than continuing to allow Americans to get their peptides from sketchy overseas labs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>Then the counterargument from the medical experts is basically that there, again, simply isn’t enough human data on these drugs. There’s a lot of concern about what it would mean to make it easier for people to take these drugs that are indeed in high demand but that we simply don’t know what kinds of short or long-term health effects they might have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there have been cases of people reporting getting sick, having injuries from peptide doses. So, you know there are real concerns about what should be done in order to monitor peptides better and make sure that they’re safe. And you could hear a lot of frustration from the medical experts who were on the advisory panel as each vote on each separate drug went down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They vote on each drug individually, so as they started seeing what was going to happen of those seven drugs, six got recommended to be reclassified so that compounding pharmacies could make them. So a lot of frustration from the medical experts saying like,’Once again, we don’t know enough about how these drugs will impact people. We’re really worried that this is gonna be dangerous and put people’s health and potentially even their lives at risk.’ And then they were outnumbered on the panel by the, the people who were affiliated with the peptide industry or prescription in some way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this is where it gets really dicey. Before the advisory panel met, the FDA itself came out and said, hey, we say no to allowing compounding pharmacies to make any of these peptides. This was a decision made by multiple FDA staff scientists. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that was directly in conflict with the outcome of the meeting, which said six out of these seven peptides, they do recommend changing classifications.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Advisory panels rarely go against the FDA staff recommendation. According to reports of that meeting, after the votes were tallied and the recommendation was announced, an audible gasp rippled through the room. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>So with that, it’s gonna be really interesting to see now what happens. The ultimate decision is up to the FDA. So normally, it would be even if the advisory panel had recommended against, if FDA staffers felt really strongly, they could do whatever they felt was right but Robert F. Kennedy Jr., of course, is the head of the health department. He has a lot of power and influence, and I think a lot of outside observers are betting that even if FDA staff don’t think that this change should be made, that Kennedy may push it through which would obviously be quite bad for FDA morale as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Who will benefit from this decision? Well, like we talked about earlier, the telehealth industry and their in-house compounding pharmacies make a TON of money. And now they stand to make even more. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When you have people on the panel who it’s clear to see how they’re seeing a lot of patient demand. If they’re able to provide more prescriptions to patients for peptides, that is good for their business.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For the compounding pharmacies, it’s certainly huge for their bottom line. Hims and Hers announced that they’re looking to start offering peptides this year. Noom has also moved to start offering peptides. They purchased a compounding pharmacy business. So there are a lot of companies that certainly see an upside to giving into demand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But as one of the people who I spoke with pointed out, simply because people want drugs isn’t a good reason to authorize them, and simply because we don’t want them to get it off the gray market. If that were the case, then we would legalize heroin, which indeed actually some libertarians think we should, but which the majority of people think that there are good reasons to not do such a thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> so given the FDA’s, uh, I guess, like despite their tensions, um, what does the future of peptide stacking look like now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> For people who are enthusiastic about peptides, I think the future is bright in the sense of them being able to access them. I think it looks like more and more likely that there’s going to be a lot of regulatory interest under Kennedy as long as he’s in power in making these products more accessible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that in terms of what the future looks like from a health perspective, the reality is that we simply don’t know, and that’s kind of scary. We don’t know what kind of effects these are going to have, and we don’t really right now have a robust way of monitoring or surveying for those effects either.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So what you would really wanna see are clinical trials that are studying people who are taking peptides and researching those outcomes, and that is one thing that we don’t currently have right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But again, a recommendation isn’t the same as FDA approval. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Just because this, uh, the panel has said this, that doesn’t mean that compounding pharmacies now have the go-ahead to start producing them. The final decision is up to the FDA and the FDA rulemaking. I believe that outside experts think that process could take up to a year, so it’s not something that we would expect to see immediately happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That doesn’t mean it’s hard to get a hold of now, though. When I searched “Melanotan II near me,” I found dozens of medical spas across LA that advertise it as part of their “peptide therapy.” For $95, I could drive over to Beverly Hills and pick up a 5 mL vial at a clinic, or $150, I could get it delivered! Mobile IV clinics also offer it as an add-on to their on-demand IV services, so I could get my tan on, get a whole GLOW stack injected, and get a hangover cure administered at the same time, in my own living room! It’s like doordash for peptides! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though, Dr. Grewal does not find that as amusing as I do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> My gut reaction is honestly mortified, terrified, but also not surprised. And again, it just really brings me back to the point of, you know, the body is really complicated and medicine is complicated.I think the most important thing is that you research the person that is endorsing a specific product or, um, or approach, right? So, like, I love that people research, but I would really encourage, and I’m an advocate of spending the most time researching your source, who you’re going to assign as being credible\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As much as I love my skincare routine and gratuitous pursuit of beauty, I personally will be staying clear of the Barbie peptide. A little gradual tanning lotion and my trusty tanning mitt has never done me wrong. Plus, I don’t have to worry about breaking out into funky looking moles! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ok, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cbr>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode was produced by Cayla Mihalovich and Maya Cueva. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode includes clips from TikTok creators carlysnaxwell, itsdevnyc, and cablequeencourt, clips from the Instagram accounts ToxDaddy and sooshbrah, and YouTube clips from SpaAndTell and Joe Rogan Experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, my ‘foryou’ page every day it’s like, “Who’s on Glow? Who’s on the Glow stack or the Barbie stack?” Like you can’t escape it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Yeah, all over.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk — Sarah Todd, STAT News",
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"FDA panel backs compounded BPC-157, KPV peptides in win for RFK Jr. — Sarah Todd and Lizzy Lawrence, STAT News",
"What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk — Sarah Todd, STAT News",
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"The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry — Kara Nesvig, Allure",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.elle.com/beauty/health-fitness/a73232620/tanmaxxing-trend-explained-interview-2026/\">Is Tanmaxxing an Addiction? A Dermatologist and Psychologist Explains\u003c/a> — Katie Berohn, \u003cem>ELLE\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.gq.com/story/inside-the-weird-new-world-of-peptide-tanning\">Inside the Weird New World of Peptide Tanning\u003c/a> — Savannah Sobrevilla, \u003cem>GQ\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.gq.com/story/inside-the-weird-new-world-of-peptide-tanning\">Inside the Weird New World of Peptide Tanning\u003c/a> — Savannah Sobrevilla, \u003cem>GQ\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2026/06/29/barbie-drug-peptide-shot-tan\">Melanotan: The “Barbie drug” tanning peptide, explained\u003c/a> — Carly Mallenbaum, \u003cem>Axios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2026/06/29/barbie-drug-peptide-shot-tan\">Melanotan: The “Barbie drug” tanning peptide, explained\u003c/a> — Carly Mallenbaum, \u003cem>Axios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/live-well/longevity/story/tanning-peptides-melanotan-vyleesi-pt141\">Inside the Viral Tanning Peptide That Accidentally Created Vyleesi’s FDA-Approved Low Sex Drive Drug\u003c/a> — Sara Kitnick, \u003cem>LA Times Studios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/live-well/longevity/story/tanning-peptides-melanotan-vyleesi-pt141\">Inside the Viral Tanning Peptide That Accidentally Created Vyleesi’s FDA-Approved Low Sex Drive Drug\u003c/a> — Sara Kitnick, \u003cem>LA Times Studios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.allure.com/story/fda-peptide-ban-reversal\">The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry\u003c/a> — Kara Nesvig, \u003cem>Allure\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.allure.com/story/fda-peptide-ban-reversal\">The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry\u003c/a> — Kara Nesvig, \u003cem>Allure\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.skincancer.org/press/the-skin-cancer-foundation-issues-warning-regarding-melanotan-ii/\">The Skin Cancer Foundation Issues Warning Regarding Melanotan II\u003c/a> — Deborah S. Sarnoff, MD, \u003cem>Skin Cancer Foundation\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.skincancer.org/press/the-skin-cancer-foundation-issues-warning-regarding-melanotan-ii/\">The Skin Cancer Foundation Issues Warning Regarding Melanotan II\u003c/a> — Deborah S. Sarnoff, MD, \u003cem>Skin Cancer Foundation\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Host, Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Host, Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Can I be honest? I am pretty vain.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Can I be honest? I am pretty vain.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I take my skincare routine very seriously: Prescription-strength azelaic acid in the morning, and prescription-strength tretinoin at night. Lots of sunscreen and moisturizer and barrier creams in between, and every other night, I skip the tretinoin and spend three minutes under a red light mask. If I’m feeling indulgent, I’ll throw in a Korean gel mask and a jade roller. Do those do anything? I honestly can’t tell. But it feels nice! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I take my skincare routine very seriously: Prescription-strength azelaic acid in the morning, and prescription-strength tretinoin at night. Lots of sunscreen and moisturizer and barrier creams in between, and every other night, I skip the tretinoin and spend three minutes under a red light mask. If I’m feeling indulgent, I’ll throw in a Korean gel mask and a jade roller. Do those do anything? I honestly can’t tell. But it feels nice! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I wouldn’t call myself a looksmaxxer, but I do spend a good amount of time on these beautification rituals. And as a woman who exists on the internet, I feel like my For You Page is constantly lobbing beauty trends at me, and like I’m always trying to avoid getting sucked into yet another fad. I have tried so many serums and face masks and supplements before finally settling into what I consider to be a pretty pared down beauty regiment. But the one thing I haven’t tried yet is a peptide. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I wouldn’t call myself a looksmaxxer, but I do spend a good amount of time on these beautification rituals. And as a woman who exists on the internet, I feel like my For You Page is constantly lobbing beauty trends at me, and like I’m always trying to avoid getting sucked into yet another fad. I have tried so many serums and face masks and supplements before finally settling into what I consider to be a pretty pared down beauty regiment. But the one thing I haven’t tried yet is a peptide. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It seems like everyone is on them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It seems like everyone is on them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clips of influencers raving about peptides]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: This is, in my opinion, the most slept-on peptide on the market today. There’s two main benefits that have been life-changing for me . \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clips of influencers raving about peptides]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: This is, in my opinion, the most slept-on peptide on the market today. There’s two main benefits that have been life-changing for me . \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: You’re telling me there’s a botox alternative that’s easier on your wallet? Whoa! Let’s talk about Snap-8, the peptide that targets wrinkles without the needles. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: You’re telling me there’s a botox alternative that’s easier on your wallet? Whoa! Let’s talk about Snap-8, the peptide that targets wrinkles without the needles. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Peptides are chemical signals that your body naturally makes to regulate all kinds of bodily functions, like digestion and recovery. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Peptides are chemical signals that your body naturally makes to regulate all kinds of bodily functions, like digestion and recovery. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> So peptides are like text messages. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> So peptides are like text messages. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Sungat Grewal is a double board certified dermatologist and skin cancer surgeon. She’s the co-director of Laser Surgery and Cosmetic Dermatology at UCSF. And she’s been keeping an eye on the synthetic peptides people are taking to boost their bodies’ natural processes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Sungat Grewal is a double board certified dermatologist and skin cancer surgeon. She’s the co-director of Laser Surgery and Cosmetic Dermatology at UCSF. And she’s been keeping an eye on the synthetic peptides people are taking to boost their bodies’ natural processes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>They’re not necessarily good or bad inherently, but it depends on who’s sending the message, what the message is, and who receives it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>They’re not necessarily good or bad inherently, but it depends on who’s sending the message, what the message is, and who receives it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I’m not just talking about GLP-1s. Peptide stacking is really in right now. Retatrutide and Tesamorelin for weight loss, Ipamorelin for muscle growth, the “Wolverine Stack” of BPC-157 and TB-500 to boost healing after a gym sesh. If you throw in the copper peptide GHK-Cu, you’ve got a “Glow Stack,” the hot girl combo optimized for anti-aging collagen production. It’s a lot, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I’m not just talking about GLP-1s. Peptide stacking is really in right now. Retatrutide and Tesamorelin for weight loss, Ipamorelin for muscle growth, the “Wolverine Stack” of BPC-157 and TB-500 to boost healing after a gym sesh. If you throw in the copper peptide GHK-Cu, you’ve got a “Glow Stack,” the hot girl combo optimized for anti-aging collagen production. It’s a lot, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some of these compounds are not cleared by the FDA, so the way people get a hold of them is a legal hit or miss. But peptides remain incredibly popular despite the gray market. And there’s one that’s \u003cem>really\u003c/em> blown up this summer: Melanotan II. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Some of these compounds are not cleared by the FDA, so the way people get a hold of them is a legal hit or miss. But peptides remain incredibly popular despite the gray market. And there’s one that’s \u003cem>really\u003c/em> blown up this summer: Melanotan II. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cbr>[Clip from Youtube User @SpaandTell]\u003cbr>Kylie says hi Kim your tan looks great. Thank you! I’ve been using the melanotan II peptide over the last month, and I’ve been going outside, and it’s been working like a charm, so excited. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cbr>[Clip from Youtube User @SpaandTell]\u003cbr>Kylie says hi Kim your tan looks great. Thank you! I’ve been using the melanotan II peptide over the last month, and I’ve been going outside, and it’s been working like a charm, so excited. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>MT-2 for short — also known as “The Barbie peptide” or “the vacation drug.” It makes you tan, skinny, and horny (it’s a libido booster) — with no harmful UV exposure required. But Dr. Grewal says it also comes with legitimately concerning risks. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>MT-2 for short — also known as “The Barbie peptide” or “the vacation drug.” It makes you tan, skinny, and horny (it’s a libido booster) — with no harmful UV exposure required. But Dr. Grewal says it also comes with legitimately concerning risks. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty scary and it’s very sad, you know, when, um, people are chasing aesthetic goals and are being misdirected and exposing themselves to unknown risks or known risks, not only in the moment, but for future and forever forward, right? Some of these impacts have long-lasting effects.\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re diving into the world of peptides: the dangers of tanmaxxing despite the influencer promotion, and RFK Jr’s crusade to reverse the peptide bans in the U.S. What does the peptide craze say about Americans’ relationship with health and risk? Let’s jump in. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty scary and it’s very sad, you know, when, um, people are chasing aesthetic goals and are being misdirected and exposing themselves to unknown risks or known risks, not only in the moment, but for future and forever forward, right? Some of these impacts have long-lasting effects.\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re diving into the world of peptides: the dangers of tanmaxxing despite the influencer promotion, and RFK Jr’s crusade to reverse the peptide bans in the U.S. What does the peptide craze say about Americans’ relationship with health and risk? Let’s jump in. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re starting with a new tab. What is melanotan?\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’re starting with a new tab. What is melanotan?\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m part of a few weddings this year, and I wanted to look a little more sunkissed. But I’m inside like, all the time, and I have no interest in tanning beds because I don’t want to wrinkle. Again, vain! Sorry! So I started looking into self tanners. I looked up a few beauty influencers who reviewed tanning lotions … and that’s when my feed was inundated with people\u003cs> \u003c/s>recommending this miracle drug: MT-2.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I’m part of a few weddings this year, and I wanted to look a little more sunkissed. But I’m inside like, all the time, and I have no interest in tanning beds because I don’t want to wrinkle. Again, vain! Sorry! So I started looking into self tanners. I looked up a few beauty influencers who reviewed tanning lotions … and that’s when my feed was inundated with people\u003cs> \u003c/s>recommending this miracle drug: MT-2.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @toxdaddy]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Oh man, I’m super excited. I just got Melanotan 2 this morning and I’m really excited to try it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Oh man, I’m super excited. I just got Melanotan 2 this morning and I’m really excited to try it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @carlysnaxwell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I started taking MT2. I’m tan. I haven’t gone bed tanning in a while… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @carlysnaxwell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I started taking MT2. I’m tan. I haven’t gone bed tanning in a while… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @itsdevync]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I’m now at two months of taking it. I’m obsessed. My tan is only getting better … \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @itsdevync]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I’m now at two months of taking it. I’m obsessed. My tan is only getting better … \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Youtube user@SpaandTell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I am crazy impressed by this – by this, I mean, the Melanotan 2 peptide.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Youtube user@SpaandTell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I am crazy impressed by this – by this, I mean, the Melanotan 2 peptide.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And it’s not just the tan that makes it so appealing. Dr. Grewal says Melanotan II also has some specific side effects…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And it’s not just the tan that makes it so appealing. Dr. Grewal says Melanotan II also has some specific side effects…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong> It’s marketed as the Barbie peptide because tanning might be the effect that you’re shopping for, but it’s not the only effect and some of them can translate into, um, increased libido or decreased appetite. \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong> It’s marketed as the Barbie peptide because tanning might be the effect that you’re shopping for, but it’s not the only effect and some of them can translate into, um, increased libido or decreased appetite. \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>How does it do all that? Well, let’s talk about how peptides work. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>How does it do all that? Well, let’s talk about how peptides work. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Again, peptides are the chemical signals for your body to perform certain functions. Your body has tons of receptors, and peptides can target specific ones, almost like sending a text to a specific phone number. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Again, peptides are the chemical signals for your body to perform certain functions. Your body has tons of receptors, and peptides can target specific ones, almost like sending a text to a specific phone number. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>You can think about two kinds, like natural versus synthetic. So our body makes peptides naturally. Some common examples would be like insulin or GLP-1. And synthetically, you know, we can create, uh, synthetic peptides to mimic those that are made naturally in the body to get a specific effect\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>You can think about two kinds, like natural versus synthetic. So our body makes peptides naturally. Some common examples would be like insulin or GLP-1. And synthetically, you know, we can create, uh, synthetic peptides to mimic those that are made naturally in the body to get a specific effect\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Melanotan I and Melanotan II are synthetic peptides that…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Melanotan I and Melanotan II are synthetic peptides that…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> …mimic a naturally occurring peptide in the body called alpha-MSH or melanocyte-stimulating hormone. And so there are receptors that are in numerous places in the body called melanocortin receptors that can respond to this signal or chain of events.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> …mimic a naturally occurring peptide in the body called alpha-MSH or melanocyte-stimulating hormone. And so there are receptors that are in numerous places in the body called melanocortin receptors that can respond to this signal or chain of events.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are five types of melanocortin receptors in the body. The first regulates hair and skin pigmentation, and it’s what triggers tans. And it’s also really important to understand what getting tan \u003cem>really\u003c/em> means for your body. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are five types of melanocortin receptors in the body. The first regulates hair and skin pigmentation, and it’s what triggers tans. And it’s also really important to understand what getting tan \u003cem>really\u003c/em> means for your body. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> It’s literally your nucleus and your cell saying, “Oh my God, save my DNA.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> It’s literally your nucleus and your cell saying, “Oh my God, save my DNA.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung : \u003c/strong>This is Dr. Caren Campbell, a board certified dermatologist who practices medical, surgical, and cosmetic dermatology in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung : \u003c/strong>This is Dr. Caren Campbell, a board certified dermatologist who practices medical, surgical, and cosmetic dermatology in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell: \u003c/strong>You know, it’s putting an umbrella over it. Your cell is saying, like, “Help me. Protect my DNA so I don’t mutate and cause cancer.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell: \u003c/strong>You know, it’s putting an umbrella over it. Your cell is saying, like, “Help me. Protect my DNA so I don’t mutate and cause cancer.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That little umbrella is called eumelanin, and it produces brown and black pigments in the body. It’s what causes darker colors in skin, eyes, and hair. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That little umbrella is called eumelanin, and it produces brown and black pigments in the body. It’s what causes darker colors in skin, eyes, and hair. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So Melanotan I sends a text to that first melanocortin receptor, which tells your cells to pop their little umbrellas up to protect their DNA … which is what triggers a tan, without actual UV exposure. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So Melanotan I sends a text to that first melanocortin receptor, which tells your cells to pop their little umbrellas up to protect their DNA … which is what triggers a tan, without actual UV exposure. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Melanotan I is actually FDA-approved for a very, very specific, very rare skin condition that causes extreme sensitivity to light.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Melanotan I is actually FDA-approved for a very, very specific, very rare skin condition that causes extreme sensitivity to light.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Erythropoietic protoporphyria\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Erythropoietic protoporphyria\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or EPP for short. It’s actually so rare that Dr. Grewal has never seen the condition in her medical career. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or EPP for short. It’s actually so rare that Dr. Grewal has never seen the condition in her medical career. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Its incidence has been estimated at two to five cases per million people. You would know if you had this because you have symptoms when you’re a young child. Children have very severe, painful, uh, photosensitivity after exposure to sunlight or even visible light, which can come from even indoor lights, laptop screens.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Its incidence has been estimated at two to five cases per million people. You would know if you had this because you have symptoms when you’re a young child. Children have very severe, painful, uh, photosensitivity after exposure to sunlight or even visible light, which can come from even indoor lights, laptop screens.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>EPP causes extreme swelling, burning, and pain when exposed to certain light. So the FDA approved a prescription implant of Melanotan I for people with EPP, which stimulates their bodies to produce eumelanin. These little cell umbrellas absorb that light before it can damage their skin. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>EPP causes extreme swelling, burning, and pain when exposed to certain light. So the FDA approved a prescription implant of Melanotan I for people with EPP, which stimulates their bodies to produce eumelanin. These little cell umbrellas absorb that light before it can damage their skin. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, Melanotan II, which is the hot one right now, sends a group text to that first receptor. But remember, there are \u003cem>5\u003c/em> melanocortin receptors in the body. So it’s also sending that text to receptors three, four, and five as well. And these aren’t just in the skin. They’re all over the body, including in the central nervous system, which is why MT-2 can cause appetite suppression and boost libido. And because these receptors are all over the body, MT-2 can also cause unpredictable systemic changes … with unpleasant and even dangerous symptoms. Here’s Dr. Campbell again. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, Melanotan II, which is the hot one right now, sends a group text to that first receptor. But remember, there are \u003cem>5\u003c/em> melanocortin receptors in the body. So it’s also sending that text to receptors three, four, and five as well. And these aren’t just in the skin. They’re all over the body, including in the central nervous system, which is why MT-2 can cause appetite suppression and boost libido. And because these receptors are all over the body, MT-2 can also cause unpredictable systemic changes … with unpleasant and even dangerous symptoms. Here’s Dr. Campbell again. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> In men, that can lead to potentially what’s called priapism, which is where you have an erection that, you know, doesn’t go away, and there was a, a case report of someone needing to have that surgically drained in the emergency room.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> In men, that can lead to potentially what’s called priapism, which is where you have an erection that, you know, doesn’t go away, and there was a, a case report of someone needing to have that surgically drained in the emergency room.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, it, it also can cause nausea and vomiting. It’s also stimulates our sympathetic nervous system, which you can think about that like your fight or flight. So anything you needed to, like, run away from a predator, it does. So it dilates your pupils so you can see better.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Um, it, it also can cause nausea and vomiting. It’s also stimulates our sympathetic nervous system, which you can think about that like your fight or flight. So anything you needed to, like, run away from a predator, it does. So it dilates your pupils so you can see better.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It causes, you know, increased heart rate so you can get running. It causes hypertension ’cause it constricts your blood vessels. Um, so that fight or flight response can be elevated and you can get what’s called rhabdomyolysis, which is where you get muscle breakdown, and it can be very dangerous, um, life-threatening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It causes, you know, increased heart rate so you can get running. It causes hypertension ’cause it constricts your blood vessels. Um, so that fight or flight response can be elevated and you can get what’s called rhabdomyolysis, which is where you get muscle breakdown, and it can be very dangerous, um, life-threatening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So those side effects are pretty rough. But Dr. Grewal says there’s also this main one … \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So those side effects are pretty rough. But Dr. Grewal says there’s also this main one … \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> We have seen reports of patients like breaking out in moles, for example, and breaking out in atypical or what we call funky looking moles, right? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> We have seen reports of patients like breaking out in moles, for example, and breaking out in atypical or what we call funky looking moles, right? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @\u003c/em>cablequeencourt]\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Let’s count how many moles we have on our face since taking MT2. So this one’s new. This is new …Yeah, um, and that’s not including what’s going on on my body….\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @\u003c/em>cablequeencourt]\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Let’s count how many moles we have on our face since taking MT2. So this one’s new. This is new …Yeah, um, and that’s not including what’s going on on my body….\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Moles are clusters of melanocytes, the skin cells that make pigment. Most are totally benign. But like Dr. Grewal said, Melanotan moles are … funky.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Moles are clusters of melanocytes, the skin cells that make pigment. Most are totally benign. But like Dr. Grewal said, Melanotan moles are … funky.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Because it’s stimulating the same pathway that can eventually lead to melanoma. And again, we don’t have causation yet, but we do not have long-term data. And so why would you subject yourself to that risk when you can use other methods to tan the skin safely without breaking out in moles? And the moles are not just darker, the moles, like, look concerning. They, they often have atypical features.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Because it’s stimulating the same pathway that can eventually lead to melanoma. And again, we don’t have causation yet, but we do not have long-term data. And so why would you subject yourself to that risk when you can use other methods to tan the skin safely without breaking out in moles? And the moles are not just darker, the moles, like, look concerning. They, they often have atypical features.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Those little cell umbrellas can only protect so much. And if you’re exposing them to harmful UV rays over and over again, they can mutate and become cancerous. One of the ways dermatologists evaluate moles for cancer is by checking if they’ve evolved — if they’re getting bigger, darker, and wonkier. This isn’t as much of a concern for patients who are prescribed MT-1 for EPP, since they’re generally not engaging in risky behavior that causes additional UV damage — like intentionally tanning. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Those little cell umbrellas can only protect so much. And if you’re exposing them to harmful UV rays over and over again, they can mutate and become cancerous. One of the ways dermatologists evaluate moles for cancer is by checking if they’ve evolved — if they’re getting bigger, darker, and wonkier. This isn’t as much of a concern for patients who are prescribed MT-1 for EPP, since they’re generally not engaging in risky behavior that causes additional UV damage — like intentionally tanning. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But when it comes to the tanmaxxers … \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But when it comes to the tanmaxxers … \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @sooshbrah]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>This is 2021, 2022, I was doing 500 micrograms of Melanotan and I was jumping in the tanning bed for 15 minutes. I literally changed race in like three sessions. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @sooshbrah]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>This is 2021, 2022, I was doing 500 micrograms of Melanotan and I was jumping in the tanning bed for 15 minutes. I literally changed race in like three sessions. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> I can’t say for certain that, you know, melanotan causes melanoma. But we do know based on what are, again, called case [00:23:00] reports, where we don’t have large numbers, but we have good evidence of people who’ve started melanotan and then as soon as two weeks noticed almost immediate darkening and irregularity of their moles.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> I can’t say for certain that, you know, melanotan causes melanoma. But we do know based on what are, again, called case [00:23:00] reports, where we don’t have large numbers, but we have good evidence of people who’ve started melanotan and then as soon as two weeks noticed almost immediate darkening and irregularity of their moles.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Campbell said that in this case report, one of the patients had used tanning beds and melanotan at the same time, and had five new moles biopsied. All five were cancerous. And there aren’t many clinical studies on the effects of long-term melanotan use, in a broad population of users who don’t have EPP. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Campbell said that in this case report, one of the patients had used tanning beds and melanotan at the same time, and had five new moles biopsied. All five were cancerous. And there aren’t many clinical studies on the effects of long-term melanotan use, in a broad population of users who don’t have EPP. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Melanotan II was actually developed in the late 80s to early 90s, and in the early 2000s, researchers began testing it to treat sexual dysfunction. But Dr. Grewal says there’s a reason it never made it to market. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Melanotan II was actually developed in the late 80s to early 90s, and in the early 2000s, researchers began testing it to treat sexual dysfunction. But Dr. Grewal says there’s a reason it never made it to market. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Usually when a peptide or any product is on its way to becoming a drug, it goes through rigorous testing, and pharmaceuticals would love to sell it because they’re gonna profit immensely. So usually when it drops off the track, it’s because either it’s not providing the results that they’re hoping for or the safety is not promising\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Usually when a peptide or any product is on its way to becoming a drug, it goes through rigorous testing, and pharmaceuticals would love to sell it because they’re gonna profit immensely. So usually when it drops off the track, it’s because either it’s not providing the results that they’re hoping for or the safety is not promising\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Despite that, both MT-1 and MT-2 are still wildly popular on the gray market, as both a nasal spray and an injectable. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Despite that, both MT-1 and MT-2 are still wildly popular on the gray market, as both a nasal spray and an injectable. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately I am not surprised because, you know, the story of wanting tanner skin is a story we’ve heard before. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately I am not surprised because, you know, the story of wanting tanner skin is a story we’ve heard before. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, you know, first it was tanning beds, now we know how dangerous those are in terms of increasing melanoma risk even with one use, you know, before the age of 30. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Um, you know, first it was tanning beds, now we know how dangerous those are in terms of increasing melanoma risk even with one use, you know, before the age of 30. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And as is the case with many unregulated, technically illegal peptides, vendors can sell them around the US thanks to a handy loophole: the “Research Use Only” pathway. Essentially saying, this product legally isn’t for human consumption, with no quality guarantee or regulatory oversight. But there’s really nothing that can stop buyers from using it on themselves. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And as is the case with many unregulated, technically illegal peptides, vendors can sell them around the US thanks to a handy loophole: the “Research Use Only” pathway. Essentially saying, this product legally isn’t for human consumption, with no quality guarantee or regulatory oversight. But there’s really nothing that can stop buyers from using it on themselves. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> You have to remember that when it’s not FDA regulated, you really have no idea what’s in the bottle. What you’re getting in your bottle is like a crapshoot. So, you know, and historically we’ve seen issues with, um, sterility of products, contamination with unregulated products, and the concentration and the purity is also unknown.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> You have to remember that when it’s not FDA regulated, you really have no idea what’s in the bottle. What you’re getting in your bottle is like a crapshoot. So, you know, and historically we’ve seen issues with, um, sterility of products, contamination with unregulated products, and the concentration and the purity is also unknown.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that alone is like a huge reason why I would never advise anyone to take a non FDA-approved medication, whether or not it’s a peptide, you know?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So that alone is like a huge reason why I would never advise anyone to take a non FDA-approved medication, whether or not it’s a peptide, you know?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So knowing all of these risks, both healthwise and lookswise, why are people bent on taking Melanotan? And this is just one of many unregulated, very popular peptides! What’s driving the peptide boom in spite of medical experts’ warnings?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So knowing all of these risks, both healthwise and lookswise, why are people bent on taking Melanotan? And this is just one of many unregulated, very popular peptides! What’s driving the peptide boom in spite of medical experts’ warnings?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That is a whole new tab… for after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That is a whole new tab… for after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you! To become a member and support the show, go to donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Ok, after the break: we’re diving into medical libertarianism. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you! To become a member and support the show, go to donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Ok, after the break: we’re diving into medical libertarianism. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome back! Time to open a new tab. Peptides and medical libertarianism. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome back! Time to open a new tab. Peptides and medical libertarianism. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>RFK Jr, the vaccine denier and guy in charge of our entire country’s health department, is also a pep pusher. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>RFK Jr, the vaccine denier and guy in charge of our entire country’s health department, is also a pep pusher. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Yeah I mean I’m a big fan of peptides. I’ve used them myself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Yeah I mean I’m a big fan of peptides. I’ve used them myself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was RFK Jr on Joe Rogan’s podcast earlier this year, where he spoke about the proliferation of unregulated peptides. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was RFK Jr on Joe Rogan’s podcast earlier this year, where he spoke about the proliferation of unregulated peptides. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>A black market came out and the black market is run by companies that say they’re making the peptides for animal use or research purposes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>A black market came out and the black market is run by companies that say they’re making the peptides for animal use or research purposes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So basically when you buy peptides online you don’t have any guarantees about the safety and the quality of what you’re buying. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So basically when you buy peptides online you don’t have any guarantees about the safety and the quality of what you’re buying. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Sarah Todd, a reporter at STAT News. She covers the business of health, which means she’s also been following the gray market peptide industry. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Sarah Todd, a reporter at STAT News. She covers the business of health, which means she’s also been following the gray market peptide industry. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> New York Magazine had a bunch of peptides tested and found that about a third of them were mislabeled or under or overdosed or contaminated by bacteria. So those are all some of the potential health risks that you run into when you’re getting them off the gray and black market.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> New York Magazine had a bunch of peptides tested and found that about a third of them were mislabeled or under or overdosed or contaminated by bacteria. So those are all some of the potential health risks that you run into when you’re getting them off the gray and black market.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that hasn’t diminished people’s appetite for peptides. Sarah says this all falls in line with a concept called “medical libertarianism” — the idea that we should be allowed to do whatever we want with our bodies regardless of what the government or medical establishment says.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that hasn’t diminished people’s appetite for peptides. Sarah says this all falls in line with a concept called “medical libertarianism” — the idea that we should be allowed to do whatever we want with our bodies regardless of what the government or medical establishment says.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that extends to taking drugs like peptides that don’t have a lot of data behind them when it comes to their impacts on humans, either their benefits or their potential risks. But the idea with medical libertarianism is, like, that’s my choice, and if I’m willing to put my body on the line for the hopeful benefits that I can get, then I should be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that extends to taking drugs like peptides that don’t have a lot of data behind them when it comes to their impacts on humans, either their benefits or their potential risks. But the idea with medical libertarianism is, like, that’s my choice, and if I’m willing to put my body on the line for the hopeful benefits that I can get, then I should be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s a very American mindset. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s a very American mindset. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> It really goes along with this sort of all-American idea that we can control our own destinies and make our own choices, right? And a sort of suspicion about the government’s role in overseeing people’s lives, a desire to, you know, ward off the idea of the nanny state and the idea that people should be able to chase their own pursuit of happiness and the American dream.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> It really goes along with this sort of all-American idea that we can control our own destinies and make our own choices, right? And a sort of suspicion about the government’s role in overseeing people’s lives, a desire to, you know, ward off the idea of the nanny state and the idea that people should be able to chase their own pursuit of happiness and the American dream.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And if that includes self-optimizing your body and your health, then that’s something that people should be allowed to do, would be the argument that these people are making.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And if that includes self-optimizing your body and your health, then that’s something that people should be allowed to do, would be the argument that these people are making.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Americans have always had this attitude about health. In the 1970s, there was a huge backlash from the public when the government tried to regulate vitamin and supplement industries…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Americans have always had this attitude about health. In the 1970s, there was a huge backlash from the public when the government tried to regulate vitamin and supplement industries…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People wrote in and said, “Don’t take my vitamins away, “ and we wound up with the situation that we have today, where they’re still many people would argue, uh, largely unregulated or very under-regulated. I think that people really wanted to hold on to these kinds of products. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People wrote in and said, “Don’t take my vitamins away, “ and we wound up with the situation that we have today, where they’re still many people would argue, uh, largely unregulated or very under-regulated. I think that people really wanted to hold on to these kinds of products. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been ebbs and flows to medical libertarianism throughout modern American history. And then the COVID 19 pandemic hit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been ebbs and flows to medical libertarianism throughout modern American history. And then the COVID 19 pandemic hit.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People started self-experimenting with all kinds of things, like everything from ivermectin, which you m- may remember, to some sort of herbal medicines.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People started self-experimenting with all kinds of things, like everything from ivermectin, which you m- may remember, to some sort of herbal medicines.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> On one hand, you had a lot of interest in sort of like experimentation with drugs to see what you could do to improve your own health, protect yourself potentially from COVID in various ways. We also saw a big boom in the rise of social media health influencers, health and wellness influencers during this time as well, and I think that has played a huge role.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> On one hand, you had a lot of interest in sort of like experimentation with drugs to see what you could do to improve your own health, protect yourself potentially from COVID in various ways. We also saw a big boom in the rise of social media health influencers, health and wellness influencers during this time as well, and I think that has played a huge role.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Many of the sort of man-fluencers like Joe Rogan and, and Gary Brecka and Andrew Huberman were already popular pre-pandemic, but sort of like became even more so, gained huge followings during, and I think that that’s had a lot to do with the sort of rising awareness of peptides and interest in trying them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Many of the sort of man-fluencers like Joe Rogan and, and Gary Brecka and Andrew Huberman were already popular pre-pandemic, but sort of like became even more so, gained huge followings during, and I think that that’s had a lot to do with the sort of rising awareness of peptides and interest in trying them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>People started taking this “folk pharmacology” approach to medicine. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>People started taking this “folk pharmacology” approach to medicine. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So that term folk pharmacology was mentioned by a researcher I spoke with for a story.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So that term folk pharmacology was mentioned by a researcher I spoke with for a story.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>His name is Luke Turnock, and he talked about how first it sort of started, uh, with peptides in the gym, with bodybuilders and powerlifters sort of sharing, like, “Oh, this, this drug is really helping me recover from this industry. This drug is making me stronger.” But he applies that to the way that people talk about peptides in online spaces and forums as well, where people are generally a lot more likely to believe somebody else on a Reddit forum than they might be to listen to a researcher who’s telling them there’s not enough data to support taking these drugs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>His name is Luke Turnock, and he talked about how first it sort of started, uh, with peptides in the gym, with bodybuilders and powerlifters sort of sharing, like, “Oh, this, this drug is really helping me recover from this industry. This drug is making me stronger.” But he applies that to the way that people talk about peptides in online spaces and forums as well, where people are generally a lot more likely to believe somebody else on a Reddit forum than they might be to listen to a researcher who’s telling them there’s not enough data to support taking these drugs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think it, it has to do with some of the decline of trust in science, and then it also has to do with the sort of, like, just stock that we put in recommendations from other people who we perceive as regular people, whether that’s, like, you know, somebody telling us, like, “Oh, I love this vacuum,” or in this case, “I love my Wolverine stack,” you know?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think it, it has to do with some of the decline of trust in science, and then it also has to do with the sort of, like, just stock that we put in recommendations from other people who we perceive as regular people, whether that’s, like, you know, somebody telling us, like, “Oh, I love this vacuum,” or in this case, “I love my Wolverine stack,” you know?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Make American Healthy Again movement is also pretty staunchly anti-vaccine. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Make American Healthy Again movement is also pretty staunchly anti-vaccine. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When I first started thinking about this, I was like, “This seems like a huge contradiction.” I didn’t understand why the MAHA movement would be so skeptical toward vaccines and yet really welcoming toward peptides. But I think it comes back to what we were talking about with medical libertarianism.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When I first started thinking about this, I was like, “This seems like a huge contradiction.” I didn’t understand why the MAHA movement would be so skeptical toward vaccines and yet really welcoming toward peptides. But I think it comes back to what we were talking about with medical libertarianism.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A lot of the MAHA people don’t necessarily want nobody to get vaccines. They say they are more wary of certain vaccine mandates. So there the idea again is like, “Don’t tell me what to do with my own body. It should be my choice whether or not I take it.” Peptides, again, they’re saying they don’t want everybody to have to take peptides.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A lot of the MAHA people don’t necessarily want nobody to get vaccines. They say they are more wary of certain vaccine mandates. So there the idea again is like, “Don’t tell me what to do with my own body. It should be my choice whether or not I take it.” Peptides, again, they’re saying they don’t want everybody to have to take peptides.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They just wanna be able to take peptides if they want to. So that’s where it all sort of begins to make sense in an overall worldview.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They just wanna be able to take peptides if they want to. So that’s where it all sort of begins to make sense in an overall worldview.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this brand of medical libertarianism is applied pretty inconsistently. RFK Jr’s MAHA agenda is actively restricting access to trans healthcare, birth control, and abortion — issues that revolve around bodily autonomy. But when it comes to peptides? They believe the government should be hands-off. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this brand of medical libertarianism is applied pretty inconsistently. RFK Jr’s MAHA agenda is actively restricting access to trans healthcare, birth control, and abortion — issues that revolve around bodily autonomy. But when it comes to peptides? They believe the government should be hands-off. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It goes back to a Biden-era decision.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It goes back to a Biden-era decision.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So back in 2023, the Biden administration moved a bunch of peptides into a different category. That meant that compounding pharmacies could no longer produce them, and their reasons were basically, you know, what we’ve been talking about the typical warnings that we get from the medical community, that these drugs haven’t been studied enough to be able to say definitively that they are either going to do what they promise they’ll do or that they won’t cause some other big problem like cancer as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So back in 2023, the Biden administration moved a bunch of peptides into a different category. That meant that compounding pharmacies could no longer produce them, and their reasons were basically, you know, what we’ve been talking about the typical warnings that we get from the medical community, that these drugs haven’t been studied enough to be able to say definitively that they are either going to do what they promise they’ll do or that they won’t cause some other big problem like cancer as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that was the reason for moving over the classification. Now what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is looking to do is to reclassify some of those peptides so the compounding pharmacies can indeed begin producing them again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So that was the reason for moving over the classification. Now what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is looking to do is to reclassify some of those peptides so the compounding pharmacies can indeed begin producing them again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which means that they can be legally produced in the US, under \u003cem>some\u003c/em> regulatory oversight — unlike the facilities that are producing gray market peptides now. Compounding pharmacies at least have to be licensed and routinely inspected through state pharmacy boards. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which means that they can be legally produced in the US, under \u003cem>some\u003c/em> regulatory oversight — unlike the facilities that are producing gray market peptides now. Compounding pharmacies at least have to be licensed and routinely inspected through state pharmacy boards. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>RFK JR. has been on this crusade to get the FDA to lift this Biden-era peptide ban — which he talked about on that same Joe Rogan podcast episode.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>RFK JR. has been on this crusade to get the FDA to lift this Biden-era peptide ban — which he talked about on that same Joe Rogan podcast episode.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> He basically said that he is a fan of peptides. He wants to make them more accessible via compounding pharmacies. Uh, but the reason he says is not necessarily he understands that not all the science and data is out there on peptides yet, but he says that it’s gonna be safer for people to get them from compounding pharmacies than to get them off the gray and black market, and that’s sort of his logic for, for why it would make sense to, to reclassify them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> He basically said that he is a fan of peptides. He wants to make them more accessible via compounding pharmacies. Uh, but the reason he says is not necessarily he understands that not all the science and data is out there on peptides yet, but he says that it’s gonna be safer for people to get them from compounding pharmacies than to get them off the gray and black market, and that’s sort of his logic for, for why it would make sense to, to reclassify them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that is a new tab. Are peptides legal now? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that is a new tab. Are peptides legal now? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I\u003c/strong>t’s complicated. We’re gonna start by explaining different kinds of pharmacies. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I\u003c/strong>t’s complicated. We’re gonna start by explaining different kinds of pharmacies. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, typical pharmacies make and dispense FDA-approved drugs. There are the retail pharmacies that sell over-the-counter allergy meds or fill your prescriptions for blood pressure pills. There are specialty pharmacies that manage medications for very rare, highly complex health conditions, which might require stricter protocols for handling, storing, and administering meds. Both of these types of pharmacies mainly deal with medications that have already been manufactured. The pharmacy makes sure they’re giving patients the right dosage and right amount of pre-made meds. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, typical pharmacies make and dispense FDA-approved drugs. There are the retail pharmacies that sell over-the-counter allergy meds or fill your prescriptions for blood pressure pills. There are specialty pharmacies that manage medications for very rare, highly complex health conditions, which might require stricter protocols for handling, storing, and administering meds. Both of these types of pharmacies mainly deal with medications that have already been manufactured. The pharmacy makes sure they’re giving patients the right dosage and right amount of pre-made meds. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, compounding pharmacies mix the medications themselves. There are lots of reasons why people use them: maybe the commercial version of the drug includes ingredients they’re allergic to, or maybe they need a cream, not a gel. Maybe the only way to get the right dosage is by getting a custom mix. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, compounding pharmacies mix the medications themselves. There are lots of reasons why people use them: maybe the commercial version of the drug includes ingredients they’re allergic to, or maybe they need a cream, not a gel. Maybe the only way to get the right dosage is by getting a custom mix. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Sometimes there are drug shortages, and compounding pharmacies can be an alternative as well then because they can custom make a particular drug that maybe, uh, isn’t available at the moment. It might also be, as was the case with GLP-1 weight loss drugs, uh, compounding pharmacies were making a lot of, uh, GLP-1 drugs that were alternatives to the more expensive ones, like Ozempic and Wegovy, and the idea h- here was, like, you sacrifice the sort of name brand, uh, aspect, but then you, you could get the, the drugs that would have, hopefully, the same effects for cheaper.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Sometimes there are drug shortages, and compounding pharmacies can be an alternative as well then because they can custom make a particular drug that maybe, uh, isn’t available at the moment. It might also be, as was the case with GLP-1 weight loss drugs, uh, compounding pharmacies were making a lot of, uh, GLP-1 drugs that were alternatives to the more expensive ones, like Ozempic and Wegovy, and the idea h- here was, like, you sacrifice the sort of name brand, uh, aspect, but then you, you could get the, the drugs that would have, hopefully, the same effects for cheaper.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that’s another reason why people might turn to compounding pharmacies as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So that’s another reason why people might turn to compounding pharmacies as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In recent years, compounding pharmacies have become wildly lucrative, thanks to the rise of for-profit telehealth. A lot of telehealth companies have in-house compounding pharmacies, and they sell all kinds of prescription meds: personalized topical creams with Tretinoin and Niacinamide for acne, chewable tablets of Finasteride and Minoxidil for hair loss, low-dose Vardenafil for erectile dysfunction, custom-mixed hormone replacement suppositories for menopause, and now, compounded GLP-1s for weight loss. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In recent years, compounding pharmacies have become wildly lucrative, thanks to the rise of for-profit telehealth. A lot of telehealth companies have in-house compounding pharmacies, and they sell all kinds of prescription meds: personalized topical creams with Tretinoin and Niacinamide for acne, chewable tablets of Finasteride and Minoxidil for hair loss, low-dose Vardenafil for erectile dysfunction, custom-mixed hormone replacement suppositories for menopause, and now, compounded GLP-1s for weight loss. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Compounding pharmacies can legally make anything … as long the ingredients they’re working are good with the FDA. The final product doesn’t have to be FDA-approved.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Compounding pharmacies can legally make anything … as long the ingredients they’re working are good with the FDA. The final product doesn’t have to be FDA-approved.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The drugs that a compounding pharmacy makes do not necessarily have to have been authorized by the FDA. Um, as long as, you know, they have a prescription for that drug from a healthcare provider, they will, will produce the drugs. And then there’s certain, uh, substances that they’re not allowed to make, such as the peptides that are currently on the 503B substances list. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The drugs that a compounding pharmacy makes do not necessarily have to have been authorized by the FDA. Um, as long as, you know, they have a prescription for that drug from a healthcare provider, they will, will produce the drugs. And then there’s certain, uh, substances that they’re not allowed to make, such as the peptides that are currently on the 503B substances list. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are 19 peptides on that 503B substances list, including Melanotan II. Earlier this year, the FDA announced that they were going to consider reclassifying \u003cem>some\u003c/em> of those banned peptides. This is not the same as FDA approval. They haven’t gone through clinical trials that guarantee safety or efficacy, and the FDA doesn’t verify the quality before they hit the market. But if they are reclassified, that means that compounding pharmacies are allowed to make and distribute medications that contain them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are 19 peptides on that 503B substances list, including Melanotan II. Earlier this year, the FDA announced that they were going to consider reclassifying \u003cem>some\u003c/em> of those banned peptides. This is not the same as FDA approval. They haven’t gone through clinical trials that guarantee safety or efficacy, and the FDA doesn’t verify the quality before they hit the market. But if they are reclassified, that means that compounding pharmacies are allowed to make and distribute medications that contain them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The argument that was probably most common from the people on the side of making peptides more accessible via compounding pharmacies was that it’s true that we don’t have all the data yet, and we do need more of it. However, we really don’t want people getting these drugs off the gray and black market because of the other health risks, you know, the risks of contamination, the risk of mislabeled drugs where you think that you’re getting one thing, you’re actually getting something else. And they basically said patients are demanding these drugs and we should make sure that if they’re going to take them, they’re taking it the safest way they can.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The argument that was probably most common from the people on the side of making peptides more accessible via compounding pharmacies was that it’s true that we don’t have all the data yet, and we do need more of it. However, we really don’t want people getting these drugs off the gray and black market because of the other health risks, you know, the risks of contamination, the risk of mislabeled drugs where you think that you’re getting one thing, you’re actually getting something else. And they basically said patients are demanding these drugs and we should make sure that if they’re going to take them, they’re taking it the safest way they can.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In other words, it’s better to have Americans sourcing their peptides from regulated facilities, rather than overseas labs that may not be held to the same standards of sterility and quality.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In other words, it’s better to have Americans sourcing their peptides from regulated facilities, rather than overseas labs that may not be held to the same standards of sterility and quality.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In July, an FDA advisory panel met to discuss whether or not to recommend reclassification for seven peptides.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In July, an FDA advisory panel met to discuss whether or not to recommend reclassification for seven peptides.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The advisory panel itself was really controversial. So this is a group of people who aren’t members of the FDA themselves, and the FDA doesn’t have to follow their recommendations, but typically, their recommendations carry a lot of weight, and typically, an advisory panel is made up of doctors, researchers, other experts in their field.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The advisory panel itself was really controversial. So this is a group of people who aren’t members of the FDA themselves, and the FDA doesn’t have to follow their recommendations, but typically, their recommendations carry a lot of weight, and typically, an advisory panel is made up of doctors, researchers, other experts in their field.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In this case the people who were appointed to the panel, a lot of them were people who had some sort of potential conflict of interest or stake in the outcome of the decision on peptides, people who are prescribing peptides themselves, people who are you know, affiliated with compounding pharmacies in some way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In this case the people who were appointed to the panel, a lot of them were people who had some sort of potential conflict of interest or stake in the outcome of the decision on peptides, people who are prescribing peptides themselves, people who are you know, affiliated with compounding pharmacies in some way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that immediately raised a lot of red flags for critics who said, “How can we trust the advice of an advisory panel if it’s people who would potentially stand to profit from what the outcome is?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So that immediately raised a lot of red flags for critics who said, “How can we trust the advice of an advisory panel if it’s people who would potentially stand to profit from what the outcome is?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pro-peptide crowd on the panel pointed out that patients are demanding these drugs, and that \u003cem>some \u003c/em>regulatory oversight is better than continuing to allow Americans to get their peptides from sketchy overseas labs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pro-peptide crowd on the panel pointed out that patients are demanding these drugs, and that \u003cem>some \u003c/em>regulatory oversight is better than continuing to allow Americans to get their peptides from sketchy overseas labs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>Then the counterargument from the medical experts is basically that there, again, simply isn’t enough human data on these drugs. There’s a lot of concern about what it would mean to make it easier for people to take these drugs that are indeed in high demand but that we simply don’t know what kinds of short or long-term health effects they might have.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>Then the counterargument from the medical experts is basically that there, again, simply isn’t enough human data on these drugs. There’s a lot of concern about what it would mean to make it easier for people to take these drugs that are indeed in high demand but that we simply don’t know what kinds of short or long-term health effects they might have.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And there have been cases of people reporting getting sick, having injuries from peptide doses. So, you know there are real concerns about what should be done in order to monitor peptides better and make sure that they’re safe. And you could hear a lot of frustration from the medical experts who were on the advisory panel as each vote on each separate drug went down.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And there have been cases of people reporting getting sick, having injuries from peptide doses. So, you know there are real concerns about what should be done in order to monitor peptides better and make sure that they’re safe. And you could hear a lot of frustration from the medical experts who were on the advisory panel as each vote on each separate drug went down.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They vote on each drug individually, so as they started seeing what was going to happen of those seven drugs, six got recommended to be reclassified so that compounding pharmacies could make them. So a lot of frustration from the medical experts saying like,’Once again, we don’t know enough about how these drugs will impact people. We’re really worried that this is gonna be dangerous and put people’s health and potentially even their lives at risk.’ And then they were outnumbered on the panel by the, the people who were affiliated with the peptide industry or prescription in some way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They vote on each drug individually, so as they started seeing what was going to happen of those seven drugs, six got recommended to be reclassified so that compounding pharmacies could make them. So a lot of frustration from the medical experts saying like,’Once again, we don’t know enough about how these drugs will impact people. We’re really worried that this is gonna be dangerous and put people’s health and potentially even their lives at risk.’ And then they were outnumbered on the panel by the, the people who were affiliated with the peptide industry or prescription in some way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this is where it gets really dicey. Before the advisory panel met, the FDA itself came out and said, hey, we say no to allowing compounding pharmacies to make any of these peptides. This was a decision made by multiple FDA staff scientists. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this is where it gets really dicey. Before the advisory panel met, the FDA itself came out and said, hey, we say no to allowing compounding pharmacies to make any of these peptides. This was a decision made by multiple FDA staff scientists. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that was directly in conflict with the outcome of the meeting, which said six out of these seven peptides, they do recommend changing classifications.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that was directly in conflict with the outcome of the meeting, which said six out of these seven peptides, they do recommend changing classifications.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Advisory panels rarely go against the FDA staff recommendation. According to reports of that meeting, after the votes were tallied and the recommendation was announced, an audible gasp rippled through the room. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Advisory panels rarely go against the FDA staff recommendation. According to reports of that meeting, after the votes were tallied and the recommendation was announced, an audible gasp rippled through the room. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>So with that, it’s gonna be really interesting to see now what happens. The ultimate decision is up to the FDA. So normally, it would be even if the advisory panel had recommended against, if FDA staffers felt really strongly, they could do whatever they felt was right but Robert F. Kennedy Jr., of course, is the head of the health department. He has a lot of power and influence, and I think a lot of outside observers are betting that even if FDA staff don’t think that this change should be made, that Kennedy may push it through which would obviously be quite bad for FDA morale as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>So with that, it’s gonna be really interesting to see now what happens. The ultimate decision is up to the FDA. So normally, it would be even if the advisory panel had recommended against, if FDA staffers felt really strongly, they could do whatever they felt was right but Robert F. Kennedy Jr., of course, is the head of the health department. He has a lot of power and influence, and I think a lot of outside observers are betting that even if FDA staff don’t think that this change should be made, that Kennedy may push it through which would obviously be quite bad for FDA morale as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Who will benefit from this decision? Well, like we talked about earlier, the telehealth industry and their in-house compounding pharmacies make a TON of money. And now they stand to make even more. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Who will benefit from this decision? Well, like we talked about earlier, the telehealth industry and their in-house compounding pharmacies make a TON of money. And now they stand to make even more. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When you have people on the panel who it’s clear to see how they’re seeing a lot of patient demand. If they’re able to provide more prescriptions to patients for peptides, that is good for their business.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When you have people on the panel who it’s clear to see how they’re seeing a lot of patient demand. If they’re able to provide more prescriptions to patients for peptides, that is good for their business.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For the compounding pharmacies, it’s certainly huge for their bottom line. Hims and Hers announced that they’re looking to start offering peptides this year. Noom has also moved to start offering peptides. They purchased a compounding pharmacy business. So there are a lot of companies that certainly see an upside to giving into demand.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For the compounding pharmacies, it’s certainly huge for their bottom line. Hims and Hers announced that they’re looking to start offering peptides this year. Noom has also moved to start offering peptides. They purchased a compounding pharmacy business. So there are a lot of companies that certainly see an upside to giving into demand.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But as one of the people who I spoke with pointed out, simply because people want drugs isn’t a good reason to authorize them, and simply because we don’t want them to get it off the gray market. If that were the case, then we would legalize heroin, which indeed actually some libertarians think we should, but which the majority of people think that there are good reasons to not do such a thing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But as one of the people who I spoke with pointed out, simply because people want drugs isn’t a good reason to authorize them, and simply because we don’t want them to get it off the gray market. If that were the case, then we would legalize heroin, which indeed actually some libertarians think we should, but which the majority of people think that there are good reasons to not do such a thing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> so given the FDA’s, uh, I guess, like despite their tensions, um, what does the future of peptide stacking look like now?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> so given the FDA’s, uh, I guess, like despite their tensions, um, what does the future of peptide stacking look like now?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> For people who are enthusiastic about peptides, I think the future is bright in the sense of them being able to access them. I think it looks like more and more likely that there’s going to be a lot of regulatory interest under Kennedy as long as he’s in power in making these products more accessible.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> For people who are enthusiastic about peptides, I think the future is bright in the sense of them being able to access them. I think it looks like more and more likely that there’s going to be a lot of regulatory interest under Kennedy as long as he’s in power in making these products more accessible.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think that in terms of what the future looks like from a health perspective, the reality is that we simply don’t know, and that’s kind of scary. We don’t know what kind of effects these are going to have, and we don’t really right now have a robust way of monitoring or surveying for those effects either.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think that in terms of what the future looks like from a health perspective, the reality is that we simply don’t know, and that’s kind of scary. We don’t know what kind of effects these are going to have, and we don’t really right now have a robust way of monitoring or surveying for those effects either.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So what you would really wanna see are clinical trials that are studying people who are taking peptides and researching those outcomes, and that is one thing that we don’t currently have right now. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So what you would really wanna see are clinical trials that are studying people who are taking peptides and researching those outcomes, and that is one thing that we don’t currently have right now. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But again, a recommendation isn’t the same as FDA approval. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But again, a recommendation isn’t the same as FDA approval. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Just because this, uh, the panel has said this, that doesn’t mean that compounding pharmacies now have the go-ahead to start producing them. The final decision is up to the FDA and the FDA rulemaking. I believe that outside experts think that process could take up to a year, so it’s not something that we would expect to see immediately happening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Just because this, uh, the panel has said this, that doesn’t mean that compounding pharmacies now have the go-ahead to start producing them. The final decision is up to the FDA and the FDA rulemaking. I believe that outside experts think that process could take up to a year, so it’s not something that we would expect to see immediately happening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "Morgan Sung: What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. ",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. \u003c/h2>\n",
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"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. \u003c/h2>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That doesn’t mean it’s hard to get a hold of now, though. When I searched “Melanotan II near me,” I found dozens of medical spas across LA that advertise it as part of their “peptide therapy.” For $95, I could drive over to Beverly Hills and pick up a 5 mL vial at a clinic, or $150, I could get it delivered! Mobile IV clinics also offer it as an add-on to their on-demand IV services, so I could get my tan on, get a whole GLOW stack injected, and get a hangover cure administered at the same time, in my own living room! It’s like doordash for peptides! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That doesn’t mean it’s hard to get a hold of now, though. When I searched “Melanotan II near me,” I found dozens of medical spas across LA that advertise it as part of their “peptide therapy.” For $95, I could drive over to Beverly Hills and pick up a 5 mL vial at a clinic, or $150, I could get it delivered! Mobile IV clinics also offer it as an add-on to their on-demand IV services, so I could get my tan on, get a whole GLOW stack injected, and get a hangover cure administered at the same time, in my own living room! It’s like doordash for peptides! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Though, Dr. Grewal does not find that as amusing as I do. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> My gut reaction is honestly mortified, terrified, but also not surprised. And again, it just really brings me back to the point of, you know, the body is really complicated and medicine is complicated.I think the most important thing is that you research the person that is endorsing a specific product or, um, or approach, right? So, like, I love that people research, but I would really encourage, and I’m an advocate of spending the most time researching your source, who you’re going to assign as being credible\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> My gut reaction is honestly mortified, terrified, but also not surprised. And again, it just really brings me back to the point of, you know, the body is really complicated and medicine is complicated.I think the most important thing is that you research the person that is endorsing a specific product or, um, or approach, right? So, like, I love that people research, but I would really encourage, and I’m an advocate of spending the most time researching your source, who you’re going to assign as being credible\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As much as I love my skincare routine and gratuitous pursuit of beauty, I personally will be staying clear of the Barbie peptide. A little gradual tanning lotion and my trusty tanning mitt has never done me wrong. Plus, I don’t have to worry about breaking out into funky looking moles! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As much as I love my skincare routine and gratuitous pursuit of beauty, I personally will be staying clear of the Barbie peptide. A little gradual tanning lotion and my trusty tanning mitt has never done me wrong. Plus, I don’t have to worry about breaking out into funky looking moles! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ok, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cbr>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode was produced by Cayla Mihalovich and Maya Cueva. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode includes clips from TikTok creators carlysnaxwell, itsdevnyc, and cablequeencourt, clips from the Instagram accounts ToxDaddy and sooshbrah, and YouTube clips from SpaAndTell and Joe Rogan Experience.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, my ‘foryou’ page every day it’s like, “Who’s on Glow? Who’s on the Glow stack or the Barbie stack?” Like you can’t escape it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Guests:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ucsfhealth.org/providers/sungat-grewal\">Dr. Sungat Grewal\u003c/a>, double board-certified dermatologist and Mohs surgeon\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.carencampbellmd.com/?srsltid=AU7gw4XTOrftqgnQy6ysplZ8IdAO4P-TLRwup140ITmchvEhXpO36qrR\">Dr. Caren Campbell\u003c/a>, board-certified dermatologist\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/staff/sarah-todd/\">Sarah Todd\u003c/a>, reporter for \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/24/fda-peptide-compounding-panel-backs-epitalon-rejects-emideltide/\">FDA advisory panel narrowly rejects compounding of one peptide, backs two others\u003c/a> — Lizzy Lawrence and Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/23/fda-panel-okays-peptides-compound-pharmacies-bpc-157-kpv/\">FDA panel backs compounded BPC-157, KPV peptides in win for RFK Jr.\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd and Lizzy Lawrence, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.elle.com/beauty/health-fitness/a73232620/tanmaxxing-trend-explained-interview-2026/\">Is Tanmaxxing an Addiction? A Dermatologist and Psychologist Explains\u003c/a> — Katie Berohn, \u003cem>ELLE\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.gq.com/story/inside-the-weird-new-world-of-peptide-tanning\">Inside the Weird New World of Peptide Tanning\u003c/a> — Savannah Sobrevilla, \u003cem>GQ\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2026/06/29/barbie-drug-peptide-shot-tan\">Melanotan: The “Barbie drug” tanning peptide, explained\u003c/a> — Carly Mallenbaum, \u003cem>Axios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/live-well/longevity/story/tanning-peptides-melanotan-vyleesi-pt141\">Inside the Viral Tanning Peptide That Accidentally Created Vyleesi’s FDA-Approved Low Sex Drive Drug\u003c/a> — Sara Kitnick, \u003cem>LA Times Studios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.allure.com/story/fda-peptide-ban-reversal\">The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry\u003c/a> — Kara Nesvig, \u003cem>Allure\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.skincancer.org/press/the-skin-cancer-foundation-issues-warning-regarding-melanotan-ii/\">The Skin Cancer Foundation Issues Warning Regarding Melanotan II\u003c/a> — Deborah S. Sarnoff, MD, \u003cem>Skin Cancer Foundation\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Host, Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Can I be honest? I am pretty vain.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I take my skincare routine very seriously: Prescription-strength azelaic acid in the morning, and prescription-strength tretinoin at night. Lots of sunscreen and moisturizer and barrier creams in between, and every other night, I skip the tretinoin and spend three minutes under a red light mask. If I’m feeling indulgent, I’ll throw in a Korean gel mask and a jade roller. Do those do anything? I honestly can’t tell. But it feels nice! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I wouldn’t call myself a looksmaxxer, but I do spend a good amount of time on these beautification rituals. And as a woman who exists on the internet, I feel like my For You Page is constantly lobbing beauty trends at me, and like I’m always trying to avoid getting sucked into yet another fad. I have tried so many serums and face masks and supplements before finally settling into what I consider to be a pretty pared down beauty regiment. But the one thing I haven’t tried yet is a peptide. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It seems like everyone is on them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clips of influencers raving about peptides]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: This is, in my opinion, the most slept-on peptide on the market today. There’s two main benefits that have been life-changing for me . \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: You’re telling me there’s a botox alternative that’s easier on your wallet? Whoa! Let’s talk about Snap-8, the peptide that targets wrinkles without the needles. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Peptides are chemical signals that your body naturally makes to regulate all kinds of bodily functions, like digestion and recovery. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> So peptides are like text messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Sungat Grewal is a double board certified dermatologist and skin cancer surgeon. She’s the co-director of Laser Surgery and Cosmetic Dermatology at UCSF. And she’s been keeping an eye on the synthetic peptides people are taking to boost their bodies’ natural processes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>They’re not necessarily good or bad inherently, but it depends on who’s sending the message, what the message is, and who receives it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I’m not just talking about GLP-1s. Peptide stacking is really in right now. Retatrutide and Tesamorelin for weight loss, Ipamorelin for muscle growth, the “Wolverine Stack” of BPC-157 and TB-500 to boost healing after a gym sesh. If you throw in the copper peptide GHK-Cu, you’ve got a “Glow Stack,” the hot girl combo optimized for anti-aging collagen production. It’s a lot, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some of these compounds are not cleared by the FDA, so the way people get a hold of them is a legal hit or miss. But peptides remain incredibly popular despite the gray market. And there’s one that’s \u003cem>really\u003c/em> blown up this summer: Melanotan II. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cbr>[Clip from Youtube User @SpaandTell]\u003cbr>Kylie says hi Kim your tan looks great. Thank you! I’ve been using the melanotan II peptide over the last month, and I’ve been going outside, and it’s been working like a charm, so excited. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>MT-2 for short — also known as “The Barbie peptide” or “the vacation drug.” It makes you tan, skinny, and horny (it’s a libido booster) — with no harmful UV exposure required. But Dr. Grewal says it also comes with legitimately concerning risks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty scary and it’s very sad, you know, when, um, people are chasing aesthetic goals and are being misdirected and exposing themselves to unknown risks or known risks, not only in the moment, but for future and forever forward, right? Some of these impacts have long-lasting effects.\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re diving into the world of peptides: the dangers of tanmaxxing despite the influencer promotion, and RFK Jr’s crusade to reverse the peptide bans in the U.S. What does the peptide craze say about Americans’ relationship with health and risk? Let’s jump in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re starting with a new tab. What is melanotan?\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m part of a few weddings this year, and I wanted to look a little more sunkissed. But I’m inside like, all the time, and I have no interest in tanning beds because I don’t want to wrinkle. Again, vain! Sorry! So I started looking into self tanners. I looked up a few beauty influencers who reviewed tanning lotions … and that’s when my feed was inundated with people\u003cs> \u003c/s>recommending this miracle drug: MT-2.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @toxdaddy]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Oh man, I’m super excited. I just got Melanotan 2 this morning and I’m really excited to try it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @carlysnaxwell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I started taking MT2. I’m tan. I haven’t gone bed tanning in a while… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @itsdevync]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I’m now at two months of taking it. I’m obsessed. My tan is only getting better … \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Youtube user@SpaandTell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I am crazy impressed by this – by this, I mean, the Melanotan 2 peptide.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And it’s not just the tan that makes it so appealing. Dr. Grewal says Melanotan II also has some specific side effects…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong> It’s marketed as the Barbie peptide because tanning might be the effect that you’re shopping for, but it’s not the only effect and some of them can translate into, um, increased libido or decreased appetite. \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>How does it do all that? Well, let’s talk about how peptides work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Again, peptides are the chemical signals for your body to perform certain functions. Your body has tons of receptors, and peptides can target specific ones, almost like sending a text to a specific phone number. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>You can think about two kinds, like natural versus synthetic. So our body makes peptides naturally. Some common examples would be like insulin or GLP-1. And synthetically, you know, we can create, uh, synthetic peptides to mimic those that are made naturally in the body to get a specific effect\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Melanotan I and Melanotan II are synthetic peptides that…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> …mimic a naturally occurring peptide in the body called alpha-MSH or melanocyte-stimulating hormone. And so there are receptors that are in numerous places in the body called melanocortin receptors that can respond to this signal or chain of events.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are five types of melanocortin receptors in the body. The first regulates hair and skin pigmentation, and it’s what triggers tans. And it’s also really important to understand what getting tan \u003cem>really\u003c/em> means for your body. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> It’s literally your nucleus and your cell saying, “Oh my God, save my DNA.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung : \u003c/strong>This is Dr. Caren Campbell, a board certified dermatologist who practices medical, surgical, and cosmetic dermatology in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell: \u003c/strong>You know, it’s putting an umbrella over it. Your cell is saying, like, “Help me. Protect my DNA so I don’t mutate and cause cancer.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That little umbrella is called eumelanin, and it produces brown and black pigments in the body. It’s what causes darker colors in skin, eyes, and hair. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So Melanotan I sends a text to that first melanocortin receptor, which tells your cells to pop their little umbrellas up to protect their DNA … which is what triggers a tan, without actual UV exposure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Melanotan I is actually FDA-approved for a very, very specific, very rare skin condition that causes extreme sensitivity to light.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Erythropoietic protoporphyria\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or EPP for short. It’s actually so rare that Dr. Grewal has never seen the condition in her medical career. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Its incidence has been estimated at two to five cases per million people. You would know if you had this because you have symptoms when you’re a young child. Children have very severe, painful, uh, photosensitivity after exposure to sunlight or even visible light, which can come from even indoor lights, laptop screens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>EPP causes extreme swelling, burning, and pain when exposed to certain light. So the FDA approved a prescription implant of Melanotan I for people with EPP, which stimulates their bodies to produce eumelanin. These little cell umbrellas absorb that light before it can damage their skin. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, Melanotan II, which is the hot one right now, sends a group text to that first receptor. But remember, there are \u003cem>5\u003c/em> melanocortin receptors in the body. So it’s also sending that text to receptors three, four, and five as well. And these aren’t just in the skin. They’re all over the body, including in the central nervous system, which is why MT-2 can cause appetite suppression and boost libido. And because these receptors are all over the body, MT-2 can also cause unpredictable systemic changes … with unpleasant and even dangerous symptoms. Here’s Dr. Campbell again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> In men, that can lead to potentially what’s called priapism, which is where you have an erection that, you know, doesn’t go away, and there was a, a case report of someone needing to have that surgically drained in the emergency room.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, it, it also can cause nausea and vomiting. It’s also stimulates our sympathetic nervous system, which you can think about that like your fight or flight. So anything you needed to, like, run away from a predator, it does. So it dilates your pupils so you can see better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It causes, you know, increased heart rate so you can get running. It causes hypertension ’cause it constricts your blood vessels. Um, so that fight or flight response can be elevated and you can get what’s called rhabdomyolysis, which is where you get muscle breakdown, and it can be very dangerous, um, life-threatening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So those side effects are pretty rough. But Dr. Grewal says there’s also this main one … \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> We have seen reports of patients like breaking out in moles, for example, and breaking out in atypical or what we call funky looking moles, right? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @\u003c/em>cablequeencourt]\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Let’s count how many moles we have on our face since taking MT2. So this one’s new. This is new …Yeah, um, and that’s not including what’s going on on my body….\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Moles are clusters of melanocytes, the skin cells that make pigment. Most are totally benign. But like Dr. Grewal said, Melanotan moles are … funky.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Because it’s stimulating the same pathway that can eventually lead to melanoma. And again, we don’t have causation yet, but we do not have long-term data. And so why would you subject yourself to that risk when you can use other methods to tan the skin safely without breaking out in moles? And the moles are not just darker, the moles, like, look concerning. They, they often have atypical features.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Those little cell umbrellas can only protect so much. And if you’re exposing them to harmful UV rays over and over again, they can mutate and become cancerous. One of the ways dermatologists evaluate moles for cancer is by checking if they’ve evolved — if they’re getting bigger, darker, and wonkier. This isn’t as much of a concern for patients who are prescribed MT-1 for EPP, since they’re generally not engaging in risky behavior that causes additional UV damage — like intentionally tanning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But when it comes to the tanmaxxers … \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @sooshbrah]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>This is 2021, 2022, I was doing 500 micrograms of Melanotan and I was jumping in the tanning bed for 15 minutes. I literally changed race in like three sessions. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> I can’t say for certain that, you know, melanotan causes melanoma. But we do know based on what are, again, called case [00:23:00] reports, where we don’t have large numbers, but we have good evidence of people who’ve started melanotan and then as soon as two weeks noticed almost immediate darkening and irregularity of their moles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Campbell said that in this case report, one of the patients had used tanning beds and melanotan at the same time, and had five new moles biopsied. All five were cancerous. And there aren’t many clinical studies on the effects of long-term melanotan use, in a broad population of users who don’t have EPP. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Melanotan II was actually developed in the late 80s to early 90s, and in the early 2000s, researchers began testing it to treat sexual dysfunction. But Dr. Grewal says there’s a reason it never made it to market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Usually when a peptide or any product is on its way to becoming a drug, it goes through rigorous testing, and pharmaceuticals would love to sell it because they’re gonna profit immensely. So usually when it drops off the track, it’s because either it’s not providing the results that they’re hoping for or the safety is not promising\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Despite that, both MT-1 and MT-2 are still wildly popular on the gray market, as both a nasal spray and an injectable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately I am not surprised because, you know, the story of wanting tanner skin is a story we’ve heard before. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, you know, first it was tanning beds, now we know how dangerous those are in terms of increasing melanoma risk even with one use, you know, before the age of 30. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And as is the case with many unregulated, technically illegal peptides, vendors can sell them around the US thanks to a handy loophole: the “Research Use Only” pathway. Essentially saying, this product legally isn’t for human consumption, with no quality guarantee or regulatory oversight. But there’s really nothing that can stop buyers from using it on themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> You have to remember that when it’s not FDA regulated, you really have no idea what’s in the bottle. What you’re getting in your bottle is like a crapshoot. So, you know, and historically we’ve seen issues with, um, sterility of products, contamination with unregulated products, and the concentration and the purity is also unknown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that alone is like a huge reason why I would never advise anyone to take a non FDA-approved medication, whether or not it’s a peptide, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So knowing all of these risks, both healthwise and lookswise, why are people bent on taking Melanotan? And this is just one of many unregulated, very popular peptides! What’s driving the peptide boom in spite of medical experts’ warnings?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That is a whole new tab… for after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you! To become a member and support the show, go to donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Ok, after the break: we’re diving into medical libertarianism. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome back! Time to open a new tab. Peptides and medical libertarianism. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>RFK Jr, the vaccine denier and guy in charge of our entire country’s health department, is also a pep pusher. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Yeah I mean I’m a big fan of peptides. I’ve used them myself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was RFK Jr on Joe Rogan’s podcast earlier this year, where he spoke about the proliferation of unregulated peptides. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>A black market came out and the black market is run by companies that say they’re making the peptides for animal use or research purposes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So basically when you buy peptides online you don’t have any guarantees about the safety and the quality of what you’re buying. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Sarah Todd, a reporter at STAT News. She covers the business of health, which means she’s also been following the gray market peptide industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> New York Magazine had a bunch of peptides tested and found that about a third of them were mislabeled or under or overdosed or contaminated by bacteria. So those are all some of the potential health risks that you run into when you’re getting them off the gray and black market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that hasn’t diminished people’s appetite for peptides. Sarah says this all falls in line with a concept called “medical libertarianism” — the idea that we should be allowed to do whatever we want with our bodies regardless of what the government or medical establishment says.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that extends to taking drugs like peptides that don’t have a lot of data behind them when it comes to their impacts on humans, either their benefits or their potential risks. But the idea with medical libertarianism is, like, that’s my choice, and if I’m willing to put my body on the line for the hopeful benefits that I can get, then I should be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s a very American mindset. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> It really goes along with this sort of all-American idea that we can control our own destinies and make our own choices, right? And a sort of suspicion about the government’s role in overseeing people’s lives, a desire to, you know, ward off the idea of the nanny state and the idea that people should be able to chase their own pursuit of happiness and the American dream.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if that includes self-optimizing your body and your health, then that’s something that people should be allowed to do, would be the argument that these people are making.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Americans have always had this attitude about health. In the 1970s, there was a huge backlash from the public when the government tried to regulate vitamin and supplement industries…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People wrote in and said, “Don’t take my vitamins away, “ and we wound up with the situation that we have today, where they’re still many people would argue, uh, largely unregulated or very under-regulated. I think that people really wanted to hold on to these kinds of products. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been ebbs and flows to medical libertarianism throughout modern American history. And then the COVID 19 pandemic hit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People started self-experimenting with all kinds of things, like everything from ivermectin, which you m- may remember, to some sort of herbal medicines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> On one hand, you had a lot of interest in sort of like experimentation with drugs to see what you could do to improve your own health, protect yourself potentially from COVID in various ways. We also saw a big boom in the rise of social media health influencers, health and wellness influencers during this time as well, and I think that has played a huge role.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Many of the sort of man-fluencers like Joe Rogan and, and Gary Brecka and Andrew Huberman were already popular pre-pandemic, but sort of like became even more so, gained huge followings during, and I think that that’s had a lot to do with the sort of rising awareness of peptides and interest in trying them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>People started taking this “folk pharmacology” approach to medicine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So that term folk pharmacology was mentioned by a researcher I spoke with for a story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His name is Luke Turnock, and he talked about how first it sort of started, uh, with peptides in the gym, with bodybuilders and powerlifters sort of sharing, like, “Oh, this, this drug is really helping me recover from this industry. This drug is making me stronger.” But he applies that to the way that people talk about peptides in online spaces and forums as well, where people are generally a lot more likely to believe somebody else on a Reddit forum than they might be to listen to a researcher who’s telling them there’s not enough data to support taking these drugs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think it, it has to do with some of the decline of trust in science, and then it also has to do with the sort of, like, just stock that we put in recommendations from other people who we perceive as regular people, whether that’s, like, you know, somebody telling us, like, “Oh, I love this vacuum,” or in this case, “I love my Wolverine stack,” you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Make American Healthy Again movement is also pretty staunchly anti-vaccine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When I first started thinking about this, I was like, “This seems like a huge contradiction.” I didn’t understand why the MAHA movement would be so skeptical toward vaccines and yet really welcoming toward peptides. But I think it comes back to what we were talking about with medical libertarianism.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lot of the MAHA people don’t necessarily want nobody to get vaccines. They say they are more wary of certain vaccine mandates. So there the idea again is like, “Don’t tell me what to do with my own body. It should be my choice whether or not I take it.” Peptides, again, they’re saying they don’t want everybody to have to take peptides.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They just wanna be able to take peptides if they want to. So that’s where it all sort of begins to make sense in an overall worldview.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this brand of medical libertarianism is applied pretty inconsistently. RFK Jr’s MAHA agenda is actively restricting access to trans healthcare, birth control, and abortion — issues that revolve around bodily autonomy. But when it comes to peptides? They believe the government should be hands-off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It goes back to a Biden-era decision.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So back in 2023, the Biden administration moved a bunch of peptides into a different category. That meant that compounding pharmacies could no longer produce them, and their reasons were basically, you know, what we’ve been talking about the typical warnings that we get from the medical community, that these drugs haven’t been studied enough to be able to say definitively that they are either going to do what they promise they’ll do or that they won’t cause some other big problem like cancer as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that was the reason for moving over the classification. Now what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is looking to do is to reclassify some of those peptides so the compounding pharmacies can indeed begin producing them again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which means that they can be legally produced in the US, under \u003cem>some\u003c/em> regulatory oversight — unlike the facilities that are producing gray market peptides now. Compounding pharmacies at least have to be licensed and routinely inspected through state pharmacy boards. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>RFK JR. has been on this crusade to get the FDA to lift this Biden-era peptide ban — which he talked about on that same Joe Rogan podcast episode.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> He basically said that he is a fan of peptides. He wants to make them more accessible via compounding pharmacies. Uh, but the reason he says is not necessarily he understands that not all the science and data is out there on peptides yet, but he says that it’s gonna be safer for people to get them from compounding pharmacies than to get them off the gray and black market, and that’s sort of his logic for, for why it would make sense to, to reclassify them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that is a new tab. Are peptides legal now? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I\u003c/strong>t’s complicated. We’re gonna start by explaining different kinds of pharmacies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, typical pharmacies make and dispense FDA-approved drugs. There are the retail pharmacies that sell over-the-counter allergy meds or fill your prescriptions for blood pressure pills. There are specialty pharmacies that manage medications for very rare, highly complex health conditions, which might require stricter protocols for handling, storing, and administering meds. Both of these types of pharmacies mainly deal with medications that have already been manufactured. The pharmacy makes sure they’re giving patients the right dosage and right amount of pre-made meds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, compounding pharmacies mix the medications themselves. There are lots of reasons why people use them: maybe the commercial version of the drug includes ingredients they’re allergic to, or maybe they need a cream, not a gel. Maybe the only way to get the right dosage is by getting a custom mix. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Sometimes there are drug shortages, and compounding pharmacies can be an alternative as well then because they can custom make a particular drug that maybe, uh, isn’t available at the moment. It might also be, as was the case with GLP-1 weight loss drugs, uh, compounding pharmacies were making a lot of, uh, GLP-1 drugs that were alternatives to the more expensive ones, like Ozempic and Wegovy, and the idea h- here was, like, you sacrifice the sort of name brand, uh, aspect, but then you, you could get the, the drugs that would have, hopefully, the same effects for cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that’s another reason why people might turn to compounding pharmacies as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In recent years, compounding pharmacies have become wildly lucrative, thanks to the rise of for-profit telehealth. A lot of telehealth companies have in-house compounding pharmacies, and they sell all kinds of prescription meds: personalized topical creams with Tretinoin and Niacinamide for acne, chewable tablets of Finasteride and Minoxidil for hair loss, low-dose Vardenafil for erectile dysfunction, custom-mixed hormone replacement suppositories for menopause, and now, compounded GLP-1s for weight loss. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Compounding pharmacies can legally make anything … as long the ingredients they’re working are good with the FDA. The final product doesn’t have to be FDA-approved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The drugs that a compounding pharmacy makes do not necessarily have to have been authorized by the FDA. Um, as long as, you know, they have a prescription for that drug from a healthcare provider, they will, will produce the drugs. And then there’s certain, uh, substances that they’re not allowed to make, such as the peptides that are currently on the 503B substances list. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are 19 peptides on that 503B substances list, including Melanotan II. Earlier this year, the FDA announced that they were going to consider reclassifying \u003cem>some\u003c/em> of those banned peptides. This is not the same as FDA approval. They haven’t gone through clinical trials that guarantee safety or efficacy, and the FDA doesn’t verify the quality before they hit the market. But if they are reclassified, that means that compounding pharmacies are allowed to make and distribute medications that contain them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The argument that was probably most common from the people on the side of making peptides more accessible via compounding pharmacies was that it’s true that we don’t have all the data yet, and we do need more of it. However, we really don’t want people getting these drugs off the gray and black market because of the other health risks, you know, the risks of contamination, the risk of mislabeled drugs where you think that you’re getting one thing, you’re actually getting something else. And they basically said patients are demanding these drugs and we should make sure that if they’re going to take them, they’re taking it the safest way they can.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In other words, it’s better to have Americans sourcing their peptides from regulated facilities, rather than overseas labs that may not be held to the same standards of sterility and quality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In July, an FDA advisory panel met to discuss whether or not to recommend reclassification for seven peptides.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The advisory panel itself was really controversial. So this is a group of people who aren’t members of the FDA themselves, and the FDA doesn’t have to follow their recommendations, but typically, their recommendations carry a lot of weight, and typically, an advisory panel is made up of doctors, researchers, other experts in their field.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In this case the people who were appointed to the panel, a lot of them were people who had some sort of potential conflict of interest or stake in the outcome of the decision on peptides, people who are prescribing peptides themselves, people who are you know, affiliated with compounding pharmacies in some way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that immediately raised a lot of red flags for critics who said, “How can we trust the advice of an advisory panel if it’s people who would potentially stand to profit from what the outcome is?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pro-peptide crowd on the panel pointed out that patients are demanding these drugs, and that \u003cem>some \u003c/em>regulatory oversight is better than continuing to allow Americans to get their peptides from sketchy overseas labs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>Then the counterargument from the medical experts is basically that there, again, simply isn’t enough human data on these drugs. There’s a lot of concern about what it would mean to make it easier for people to take these drugs that are indeed in high demand but that we simply don’t know what kinds of short or long-term health effects they might have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there have been cases of people reporting getting sick, having injuries from peptide doses. So, you know there are real concerns about what should be done in order to monitor peptides better and make sure that they’re safe. And you could hear a lot of frustration from the medical experts who were on the advisory panel as each vote on each separate drug went down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They vote on each drug individually, so as they started seeing what was going to happen of those seven drugs, six got recommended to be reclassified so that compounding pharmacies could make them. So a lot of frustration from the medical experts saying like,’Once again, we don’t know enough about how these drugs will impact people. We’re really worried that this is gonna be dangerous and put people’s health and potentially even their lives at risk.’ And then they were outnumbered on the panel by the, the people who were affiliated with the peptide industry or prescription in some way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this is where it gets really dicey. Before the advisory panel met, the FDA itself came out and said, hey, we say no to allowing compounding pharmacies to make any of these peptides. This was a decision made by multiple FDA staff scientists. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that was directly in conflict with the outcome of the meeting, which said six out of these seven peptides, they do recommend changing classifications.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Advisory panels rarely go against the FDA staff recommendation. According to reports of that meeting, after the votes were tallied and the recommendation was announced, an audible gasp rippled through the room. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>So with that, it’s gonna be really interesting to see now what happens. The ultimate decision is up to the FDA. So normally, it would be even if the advisory panel had recommended against, if FDA staffers felt really strongly, they could do whatever they felt was right but Robert F. Kennedy Jr., of course, is the head of the health department. He has a lot of power and influence, and I think a lot of outside observers are betting that even if FDA staff don’t think that this change should be made, that Kennedy may push it through which would obviously be quite bad for FDA morale as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Who will benefit from this decision? Well, like we talked about earlier, the telehealth industry and their in-house compounding pharmacies make a TON of money. And now they stand to make even more. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When you have people on the panel who it’s clear to see how they’re seeing a lot of patient demand. If they’re able to provide more prescriptions to patients for peptides, that is good for their business.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For the compounding pharmacies, it’s certainly huge for their bottom line. Hims and Hers announced that they’re looking to start offering peptides this year. Noom has also moved to start offering peptides. They purchased a compounding pharmacy business. So there are a lot of companies that certainly see an upside to giving into demand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But as one of the people who I spoke with pointed out, simply because people want drugs isn’t a good reason to authorize them, and simply because we don’t want them to get it off the gray market. If that were the case, then we would legalize heroin, which indeed actually some libertarians think we should, but which the majority of people think that there are good reasons to not do such a thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> so given the FDA’s, uh, I guess, like despite their tensions, um, what does the future of peptide stacking look like now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> For people who are enthusiastic about peptides, I think the future is bright in the sense of them being able to access them. I think it looks like more and more likely that there’s going to be a lot of regulatory interest under Kennedy as long as he’s in power in making these products more accessible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that in terms of what the future looks like from a health perspective, the reality is that we simply don’t know, and that’s kind of scary. We don’t know what kind of effects these are going to have, and we don’t really right now have a robust way of monitoring or surveying for those effects either.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So what you would really wanna see are clinical trials that are studying people who are taking peptides and researching those outcomes, and that is one thing that we don’t currently have right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But again, a recommendation isn’t the same as FDA approval. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Just because this, uh, the panel has said this, that doesn’t mean that compounding pharmacies now have the go-ahead to start producing them. The final decision is up to the FDA and the FDA rulemaking. I believe that outside experts think that process could take up to a year, so it’s not something that we would expect to see immediately happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That doesn’t mean it’s hard to get a hold of now, though. When I searched “Melanotan II near me,” I found dozens of medical spas across LA that advertise it as part of their “peptide therapy.” For $95, I could drive over to Beverly Hills and pick up a 5 mL vial at a clinic, or $150, I could get it delivered! Mobile IV clinics also offer it as an add-on to their on-demand IV services, so I could get my tan on, get a whole GLOW stack injected, and get a hangover cure administered at the same time, in my own living room! It’s like doordash for peptides! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though, Dr. Grewal does not find that as amusing as I do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> My gut reaction is honestly mortified, terrified, but also not surprised. And again, it just really brings me back to the point of, you know, the body is really complicated and medicine is complicated.I think the most important thing is that you research the person that is endorsing a specific product or, um, or approach, right? So, like, I love that people research, but I would really encourage, and I’m an advocate of spending the most time researching your source, who you’re going to assign as being credible\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As much as I love my skincare routine and gratuitous pursuit of beauty, I personally will be staying clear of the Barbie peptide. A little gradual tanning lotion and my trusty tanning mitt has never done me wrong. Plus, I don’t have to worry about breaking out into funky looking moles! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ok, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cbr>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode was produced by Cayla Mihalovich and Maya Cueva. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode includes clips from TikTok creators carlysnaxwell, itsdevnyc, and cablequeencourt, clips from the Instagram accounts ToxDaddy and sooshbrah, and YouTube clips from SpaAndTell and Joe Rogan Experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, my ‘foryou’ page every day it’s like, “Who’s on Glow? Who’s on the Glow stack or the Barbie stack?” Like you can’t escape it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Yeah, all over.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "kaiser-permanente-to-pay-owed-wages-to-more-than-1000-nurses-says-union",
"title": "Kaiser Permanente to Pay 1,100 Nurses Millions in Owed Wages After Years-Long Dispute",
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"headTitle": "Kaiser Permanente to Pay 1,100 Nurses Millions in Owed Wages After Years-Long Dispute | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/kaiser-permanente\">Kaiser Permanente\u003c/a> must pay more than 1,100 registered nurses owed wages that could total tens of millions of dollars after a systemic payroll error, according to the union that represents the nurses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The California Nurses Association \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-massive-historic-victory-against-disgusting-kaiser-wage-theft\">celebrated\u003c/a> Monday an arbitrator’s resolution of the years-long dispute as a “historic victory against wage theft.” Union President Michelle Gutierrez Vo, an adult family nurse at Kaiser Fremont Medical Center, said it took years of advocacy and research to understand the scope of the problem and get the company on track to fully remedy it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The issue really is that we gave Kaiser all of the information that we gathered that was accurate and even then Kaiser refused to correct it,” an incensed Gutierrez Vo, a registered nurse for more than 25 years, told KQED. “It’s taking an arbitrator to really force Kaiser to do right by our nurses.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“All of these years, they’d rather pay expensive lawyers to not pay the nurses that work super hard. That’s just unethical and immoral and it’s very disappointing,” she added. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The union, which represents about 23,000 nurses at 22 Kaiser facilities, said members first alerted the company to an underpayment issue, dating back to at least 2021, after Kaiser changed its human resources software. It’s unclear how much retroactive pay each impacted nurse is now set to receive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1067\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097883\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dozens of nurses staged what they called an “informational picket” outside Kaiser Permanente Oakland Medical Center on Tuesday to demand better staffing levels and limits on AI. (Courtesy of California Nurses Association)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a statement, Kaiser said it disagrees with the union’s characterization but will honor its obligations under the arbitrator’s decision, reached in a grievance process outlined in their labor contract. California’s \u003ca href=\"https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/expertise-and-impact/public-policy/our-impact/news-perspectives-on-public-policy-california\">largest private employer\u003c/a>, with a workforce of 183,000 in the state, declined to disclose more information about the payroll problem that shorted its nurses, or whether additional, non-nurse employees were also impacted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Our nurses are among the most skilled and dedicated in the country, and we are committed to ensuring every one of them is paid accurately and in full accordance with their contract,” a company spokesperson said in a statement. “We will reach out directly to every affected nurse promptly.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As early as June 2022, union representatives notified Kaiser that it failed to advance several staff nurses to higher pay rates agreed to by years of experience and other factors. The issue appeared to be ongoing and widespread, the union warned in following years, with about 600 nurses eventually reporting paycheck errors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>By December 2024, a Kaiser payroll audit identified 1,142 nurses who were paid less than they should have been, while 1,813 were paid more than warranted by the contract. The company, which did not attempt to recoup money from employees paid an incorrect higher salary, took steps to place all the impacted employees in the appropriate salary bracket. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Previously, when individuals complained of a paycheck problem, Kaiser would investigate and correct it, providing them with retroactive owed pay dating to when the error began. But in this case, Kaiser sought to dismiss the union’s grievance and offered only up to a year of owed wages to the group of 1,142 nurses, even if they were underpaid for longer, according to arbitrator David A. Weinberg’s decision document, which was reviewed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The proper remedy for a contractual violation…is to make the nurses whole for any loss in wages and benefits going back to the date of their incorrect placement on the wage step,” he wrote, rejecting Kaiser’s arguments. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Weinberg also found that the company should not pay additional damages of 10%, as the union sought, including for lost 401K retirement account investments and attorneys fees. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wage theft, when an employer withholds pay an employee is entitled to, is more likely to disadvantage non-union workers in low-wage jobs in construction, hospitality, agriculture and other industries. Labor experts were surprised that union-represented nurses, who earn a higher median wage than other full-time workers, experienced problems of the magnitude described in Kaiser’s case. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If you didn’t have a union that was so prepared to stick at this and had the ability to force Kaiser to go through all of these steps, then we’d probably never have gotten to this stage,” said John Logan, who directs San Francisco State University’s labor and employment studies program.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1067\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097892\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dozens of nurses staged what they called an “informational picket” outside Kaiser Permanente Oakland Medical Center on Sept. 1 to demand better staffing levels and limits on AI. (Courtesy of California Nurses Association)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Logan noted that the fact that it took such a lengthy, laborious process for Kaiser to agree to compensate its employees with owed wages points to more contentious labor-management relations at the company, which was once known for its collaborative approach to unions. The industry has become increasingly consolidated, and driven by profit-seeking corporations in recent decades.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Kaiser should be the easiest company to remedy this kind of problem, if it was just an honest mistake,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kaiser said its nurses are among the industry’s best-compensated. One of the employee groups impacted, Staff Nurses II in Northern California, often earn more than $100 per hour before overtime and premium pay. That’s roughly 7% above market for comparable roles at other health systems, according to the company, one of the nation’s largest nonprofit health plans and providers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The news that Kaiser nurses are set to collectively recover millions of dollars comes as the employer negotiates a new contract with the California Nurses Association. Top union demands focus on staffing levels, wages and more say over the use of artificial intelligence in patient care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom recently signed into law a union-sponsored bill that \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-historic-victory-as-gov-newsom-signs-landmark-ai-protection-into-law\">limits the use of A.I.\u003c/a> in clinical decisions. \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1979\">AB 1979\u003c/a> by Oakland Assemblymember Mia Bonta requires a health facility or physicians’ office to take reasonable steps to ensure that nurses, doctors and other licensed healthcare professionals decide a patient’s care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In contrast to for-profit health care systems, Kaiser does not have shareholders and invests most of its earnings into patient care, its operations and facility upgrades. The Oakland-headquartered company, which has expanded in recent years to eight states and the District of Columbia, earned \u003ca href=\"https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/news/press-release-archive/kaiser-permanente-risant-health-report-2025-financial-results\">$127.7 billion last year,\u003c/a> spending most of that revenue in operating expenses. Kaiser reported a net profit of $1.4 billion, more than double what it generated in 2024.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“All of these years, they’d rather pay expensive lawyers to not pay the nurses that work super hard. That’s just unethical and immoral and it’s very disappointing,” she added. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“All of these years, they’d rather pay expensive lawyers to not pay the nurses that work super hard. That’s just unethical and immoral and it’s very disappointing,” she added. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The union, which represents about 23,000 nurses at 22 Kaiser facilities, said members first alerted the company to an underpayment issue, dating back to at least 2021, after Kaiser changed its human resources software. It’s unclear how much retroactive pay each impacted nurse is now set to receive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The union, which represents about 23,000 nurses at 22 Kaiser facilities, said members first alerted the company to an underpayment issue, dating back to at least 2021, after Kaiser changed its human resources software. It’s unclear how much retroactive pay each impacted nurse is now set to receive.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097883\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dozens of nurses staged what they called an “informational picket” outside Kaiser Permanente Oakland Medical Center on Tuesday to demand better staffing levels and limits on AI.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Courtesy of California Nurses Association)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097883\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dozens of nurses staged what they called an “informational picket” outside Kaiser Permanente Oakland Medical Center on Tuesday to demand better staffing levels and limits on AI.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Courtesy of California Nurses Association)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In a statement, Kaiser said it disagrees with the union’s characterization but will honor its obligations under the arbitrator’s decision, reached in a grievance process outlined in their labor contract. California’s \u003ca href=\"https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/expertise-and-impact/public-policy/our-impact/news-perspectives-on-public-policy-california\">largest private employer\u003c/a>, with a workforce of 183,000 in the state, declined to disclose more information about the payroll problem that shorted its nurses, or whether additional, non-nurse employees were also impacted.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In a statement, Kaiser said it disagrees with the union’s characterization but will honor its obligations under the arbitrator’s decision, reached in a grievance process outlined in their labor contract. California’s \u003ca href=\"https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/expertise-and-impact/public-policy/our-impact/news-perspectives-on-public-policy-california\">largest private employer\u003c/a>, with a workforce of 183,000 in the state, declined to disclose more information about the payroll problem that shorted its nurses, or whether additional, non-nurse employees were also impacted.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Our nurses are among the most skilled and dedicated in the country, and we are committed to ensuring every one of them is paid accurately and in full accordance with their contract,” a company spokesperson said in a statement. “We will reach out directly to every affected nurse promptly.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Our nurses are among the most skilled and dedicated in the country, and we are committed to ensuring every one of them is paid accurately and in full accordance with their contract,” a company spokesperson said in a statement. “We will reach out directly to every affected nurse promptly.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As early as June 2022, union representatives notified Kaiser that it failed to advance several staff nurses to higher pay rates agreed to by years of experience and other factors. The issue appeared to be ongoing and widespread, the union warned in following years, with about 600 nurses eventually reporting paycheck errors. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>As early as June 2022, union representatives notified Kaiser that it failed to advance several staff nurses to higher pay rates agreed to by years of experience and other factors. The issue appeared to be ongoing and widespread, the union warned in following years, with about 600 nurses eventually reporting paycheck errors. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>By December 2024, a Kaiser payroll audit identified 1,142 nurses who were paid less than they should have been, while 1,813 were paid more than warranted by the contract. The company, which did not attempt to recoup money from employees paid an incorrect higher salary, took steps to place all the impacted employees in the appropriate salary bracket. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>By December 2024, a Kaiser payroll audit identified 1,142 nurses who were paid less than they should have been, while 1,813 were paid more than warranted by the contract. The company, which did not attempt to recoup money from employees paid an incorrect higher salary, took steps to place all the impacted employees in the appropriate salary bracket. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Previously, when individuals complained of a paycheck problem, Kaiser would investigate and correct it, providing them with retroactive owed pay dating to when the error began. But in this case, Kaiser sought to dismiss the union’s grievance and offered only up to a year of owed wages to the group of 1,142 nurses, even if they were underpaid for longer, according to arbitrator David A. Weinberg’s decision document, which was reviewed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Previously, when individuals complained of a paycheck problem, Kaiser would investigate and correct it, providing them with retroactive owed pay dating to when the error began. But in this case, Kaiser sought to dismiss the union’s grievance and offered only up to a year of owed wages to the group of 1,142 nurses, even if they were underpaid for longer, according to arbitrator David A. Weinberg’s decision document, which was reviewed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The proper remedy for a contractual violation…is to make the nurses whole for any loss in wages and benefits going back to the date of their incorrect placement on the wage step,” he wrote, rejecting Kaiser’s arguments. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>“The proper remedy for a contractual violation…is to make the nurses whole for any loss in wages and benefits going back to the date of their incorrect placement on the wage step,” he wrote, rejecting Kaiser’s arguments. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Weinberg also found that the company should not pay additional damages of 10%, as the union sought, including for lost 401K retirement account investments and attorneys fees. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Weinberg also found that the company should not pay additional damages of 10%, as the union sought, including for lost 401K retirement account investments and attorneys fees. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Wage theft, when an employer withholds pay an employee is entitled to, is more likely to disadvantage non-union workers in low-wage jobs in construction, hospitality, agriculture and other industries. Labor experts were surprised that union-represented nurses, who earn a higher median wage than other full-time workers, experienced problems of the magnitude described in Kaiser’s case. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Wage theft, when an employer withholds pay an employee is entitled to, is more likely to disadvantage non-union workers in low-wage jobs in construction, hospitality, agriculture and other industries. Labor experts were surprised that union-represented nurses, who earn a higher median wage than other full-time workers, experienced problems of the magnitude described in Kaiser’s case. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“If you didn’t have a union that was so prepared to stick at this and had the ability to force Kaiser to go through all of these steps, then we’d probably never have gotten to this stage,” said John Logan, who directs San Francisco State University’s labor and employment studies program.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“If you didn’t have a union that was so prepared to stick at this and had the ability to force Kaiser to go through all of these steps, then we’d probably never have gotten to this stage,” said John Logan, who directs San Francisco State University’s labor and employment studies program.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097892\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dozens of nurses staged what they called an “informational picket” outside Kaiser Permanente Oakland Medical Center on Sept. 1 to demand better staffing levels and limits on AI.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Courtesy of California Nurses Association)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Logan noted that the fact that it took such a lengthy, laborious process for Kaiser to agree to compensate its employees with owed wages points to more contentious labor-management relations at the company, which was once known for its collaborative approach to unions. The industry has become increasingly consolidated, and driven by profit-seeking corporations in recent decades.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Logan noted that the fact that it took such a lengthy, laborious process for Kaiser to agree to compensate its employees with owed wages points to more contentious labor-management relations at the company, which was once known for its collaborative approach to unions. The industry has become increasingly consolidated, and driven by profit-seeking corporations in recent decades.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Kaiser should be the easiest company to remedy this kind of problem, if it was just an honest mistake,” he said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Kaiser said its nurses are among the industry’s best-compensated. One of the employee groups impacted, Staff Nurses II in Northern California, often earn more than $100 per hour before overtime and premium pay. That’s roughly 7% above market for comparable roles at other health systems, according to the company, one of the nation’s largest nonprofit health plans and providers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Kaiser said its nurses are among the industry’s best-compensated. One of the employee groups impacted, Staff Nurses II in Northern California, often earn more than $100 per hour before overtime and premium pay. That’s roughly 7% above market for comparable roles at other health systems, according to the company, one of the nation’s largest nonprofit health plans and providers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The news that Kaiser nurses are set to collectively recover millions of dollars comes as the employer negotiates a new contract with the California Nurses Association. Top union demands focus on staffing levels, wages and more say over the use of artificial intelligence in patient care.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The news that Kaiser nurses are set to collectively recover millions of dollars comes as the employer negotiates a new contract with the California Nurses Association. Top union demands focus on staffing levels, wages and more say over the use of artificial intelligence in patient care.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom recently signed into law a union-sponsored bill that \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-historic-victory-as-gov-newsom-signs-landmark-ai-protection-into-law\">limits the use of A.I.\u003c/a> in clinical decisions. \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1979\">AB 1979\u003c/a> by Oakland Assemblymember Mia Bonta requires a health facility or physicians’ office to take reasonable steps to ensure that nurses, doctors and other licensed healthcare professionals decide a patient’s care.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom recently signed into law a union-sponsored bill that \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-historic-victory-as-gov-newsom-signs-landmark-ai-protection-into-law\">limits the use of A.I.\u003c/a> in clinical decisions. \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1979\">AB 1979\u003c/a> by Oakland Assemblymember Mia Bonta requires a health facility or physicians’ office to take reasonable steps to ensure that nurses, doctors and other licensed healthcare professionals decide a patient’s care.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In contrast to for-profit health care systems, Kaiser does not have shareholders and invests most of its earnings into patient care, its operations and facility upgrades. The Oakland-headquartered company, which has expanded in recent years to eight states and the District of Columbia, earned \u003ca href=\"https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/news/press-release-archive/kaiser-permanente-risant-health-report-2025-financial-results\">$127.7 billion last year,\u003c/a> spending most of that revenue in operating expenses. Kaiser reported a net profit of $1.4 billion, more than double what it generated in 2024.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In contrast to for-profit health care systems, Kaiser does not have shareholders and invests most of its earnings into patient care, its operations and facility upgrades. The Oakland-headquartered company, which has expanded in recent years to eight states and the District of Columbia, earned \u003ca href=\"https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/news/press-release-archive/kaiser-permanente-risant-health-report-2025-financial-results\">$127.7 billion last year,\u003c/a> spending most of that revenue in operating expenses. Kaiser reported a net profit of $1.4 billion, more than double what it generated in 2024.\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "The California Nurses Association estimates total missed pay in the tens of millions of dollars.",
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"title": "Kaiser Permanente to Pay 1,100 Nurses Millions in Owed Wages After Years-Long Dispute | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/kaiser-permanente\">Kaiser Permanente\u003c/a> must pay more than 1,100 registered nurses owed wages that could total tens of millions of dollars after a systemic payroll error, according to the union that represents the nurses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The California Nurses Association \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-massive-historic-victory-against-disgusting-kaiser-wage-theft\">celebrated\u003c/a> Monday an arbitrator’s resolution of the years-long dispute as a “historic victory against wage theft.” Union President Michelle Gutierrez Vo, an adult family nurse at Kaiser Fremont Medical Center, said it took years of advocacy and research to understand the scope of the problem and get the company on track to fully remedy it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The issue really is that we gave Kaiser all of the information that we gathered that was accurate and even then Kaiser refused to correct it,” an incensed Gutierrez Vo, a registered nurse for more than 25 years, told KQED. “It’s taking an arbitrator to really force Kaiser to do right by our nurses.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“All of these years, they’d rather pay expensive lawyers to not pay the nurses that work super hard. That’s just unethical and immoral and it’s very disappointing,” she added. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The union, which represents about 23,000 nurses at 22 Kaiser facilities, said members first alerted the company to an underpayment issue, dating back to at least 2021, after Kaiser changed its human resources software. It’s unclear how much retroactive pay each impacted nurse is now set to receive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1067\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097883\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dozens of nurses staged what they called an “informational picket” outside Kaiser Permanente Oakland Medical Center on Tuesday to demand better staffing levels and limits on AI. (Courtesy of California Nurses Association)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a statement, Kaiser said it disagrees with the union’s characterization but will honor its obligations under the arbitrator’s decision, reached in a grievance process outlined in their labor contract. California’s \u003ca href=\"https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/expertise-and-impact/public-policy/our-impact/news-perspectives-on-public-policy-california\">largest private employer\u003c/a>, with a workforce of 183,000 in the state, declined to disclose more information about the payroll problem that shorted its nurses, or whether additional, non-nurse employees were also impacted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Our nurses are among the most skilled and dedicated in the country, and we are committed to ensuring every one of them is paid accurately and in full accordance with their contract,” a company spokesperson said in a statement. “We will reach out directly to every affected nurse promptly.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As early as June 2022, union representatives notified Kaiser that it failed to advance several staff nurses to higher pay rates agreed to by years of experience and other factors. The issue appeared to be ongoing and widespread, the union warned in following years, with about 600 nurses eventually reporting paycheck errors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>By December 2024, a Kaiser payroll audit identified 1,142 nurses who were paid less than they should have been, while 1,813 were paid more than warranted by the contract. The company, which did not attempt to recoup money from employees paid an incorrect higher salary, took steps to place all the impacted employees in the appropriate salary bracket. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Previously, when individuals complained of a paycheck problem, Kaiser would investigate and correct it, providing them with retroactive owed pay dating to when the error began. But in this case, Kaiser sought to dismiss the union’s grievance and offered only up to a year of owed wages to the group of 1,142 nurses, even if they were underpaid for longer, according to arbitrator David A. Weinberg’s decision document, which was reviewed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The proper remedy for a contractual violation…is to make the nurses whole for any loss in wages and benefits going back to the date of their incorrect placement on the wage step,” he wrote, rejecting Kaiser’s arguments. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Weinberg also found that the company should not pay additional damages of 10%, as the union sought, including for lost 401K retirement account investments and attorneys fees. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wage theft, when an employer withholds pay an employee is entitled to, is more likely to disadvantage non-union workers in low-wage jobs in construction, hospitality, agriculture and other industries. Labor experts were surprised that union-represented nurses, who earn a higher median wage than other full-time workers, experienced problems of the magnitude described in Kaiser’s case. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If you didn’t have a union that was so prepared to stick at this and had the ability to force Kaiser to go through all of these steps, then we’d probably never have gotten to this stage,” said John Logan, who directs San Francisco State University’s labor and employment studies program.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1067\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097892\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dozens of nurses staged what they called an “informational picket” outside Kaiser Permanente Oakland Medical Center on Sept. 1 to demand better staffing levels and limits on AI. (Courtesy of California Nurses Association)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Logan noted that the fact that it took such a lengthy, laborious process for Kaiser to agree to compensate its employees with owed wages points to more contentious labor-management relations at the company, which was once known for its collaborative approach to unions. The industry has become increasingly consolidated, and driven by profit-seeking corporations in recent decades.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Kaiser should be the easiest company to remedy this kind of problem, if it was just an honest mistake,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kaiser said its nurses are among the industry’s best-compensated. One of the employee groups impacted, Staff Nurses II in Northern California, often earn more than $100 per hour before overtime and premium pay. That’s roughly 7% above market for comparable roles at other health systems, according to the company, one of the nation’s largest nonprofit health plans and providers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The news that Kaiser nurses are set to collectively recover millions of dollars comes as the employer negotiates a new contract with the California Nurses Association. Top union demands focus on staffing levels, wages and more say over the use of artificial intelligence in patient care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom recently signed into law a union-sponsored bill that \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-historic-victory-as-gov-newsom-signs-landmark-ai-protection-into-law\">limits the use of A.I.\u003c/a> in clinical decisions. \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1979\">AB 1979\u003c/a> by Oakland Assemblymember Mia Bonta requires a health facility or physicians’ office to take reasonable steps to ensure that nurses, doctors and other licensed healthcare professionals decide a patient’s care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In contrast to for-profit health care systems, Kaiser does not have shareholders and invests most of its earnings into patient care, its operations and facility upgrades. The Oakland-headquartered company, which has expanded in recent years to eight states and the District of Columbia, earned \u003ca href=\"https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/news/press-release-archive/kaiser-permanente-risant-health-report-2025-financial-results\">$127.7 billion last year,\u003c/a> spending most of that revenue in operating expenses. Kaiser reported a net profit of $1.4 billion, more than double what it generated in 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jealousy can begin as curiosity, even admiration, before it curdles into something darker. For writer Sarah Haas, an old Instagram post of her husband’s ex became the root of an obsession. She began to stalk the woman online, pore over her photographs and even tried to look like her. She began to feel the woman’s presence in ordinary moments in her marriage, the intrusive thoughts spiraling her into anger and shame. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I studied her, and I Googled her, and I did all the things you can do on the internet to find out about a person,” said Haas. “And she became somebody who was always with me and who was standing against me. She was a threat to what I had.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk to Haas about the destructive power of jealousy and the source of the emotion she calls both noxious and inevitable. Haas’s forthcoming book is “Jealousy: A Memoir.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Learn more about Sarah Haas and her work \u003ca href=\"https://sarahrosehaas.com/about/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas, \u003c/strong>author, “Jealousy: A Memoir”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Sarah, you have really experienced the absolute depths of jealousy. How do you define it? And how is it potentially different from envy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Jealousy is a possessive urge. It wants to take something and own it and have it, buy it, keep it. And that’s really predicated, when it comes to romantic jealousy, on turning another person into a thing in order to make that attempt, in order to have that urge. So it can be quite dangerous. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You even call it forbidden. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s hazardous, and it’s also inevitable. So it’s a part of us. It’s cyclical, and it’s a little bit ruthless as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Your memoir really centers on this type of jealousy that we’re talking about, an all-consuming jealousy. It gripped you in the very early stages of your relationship with your boyfriend, who is now your husband. It started with an old Instagram image of one of his former partners. At first, it seems like you’re kind of fascinated and even filled with a little bit of admiration. Is that how it started?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I plot jealousy on a spectrum — and it’s not mine; it’s borrowed from a philosopher, Max Scheler. At a certain point, envy gives way to jealousy just as green eventually on the color spectrum becomes blue, and it becomes poisonous. It’s a deadening. It’s hardening. When I first saw those pictures of my husband’s ex, I went through those stages from naivete, being myself and seeing her being herself, to distinguishing between us, one of us is different than the other, to judging her, wanting to make a qualification about who was better or worse, to admiring her bittersweetly, and eventually it gave way to jealousy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Then what happens? Because you move on pretty quickly to competitor and eventually a threat to your very existence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I think my experience became mythological. In part, that’s because jealousy is a mythological phenomenon that swirls in all of the mythologies of the world. It’s really big and intense. It begs to take details and turn them into symbols. Like her blonde hair became so important to me. I hated it. I wanted it. I didn’t want it. I would go to Walmart and see blondes, and each of them had so much meaning that had nothing to do with them and their specifics. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And we should say you have long brown hair. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I have long, brown hair. So, as jealousy and I developed a relationship, I felt like it overtook me, and that was terrifying and thrilling. Also, I had to acknowledge, at a certain point, that jealousy seemed to have agency. What was happening to me wasn’t just one subject, but two. We outstripped the bounds of reality together. I resisted this possession. I didn’t. I wielded it, but either way we were bigger than reality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I mean, are you eating? Are you sleeping? Are you functioning? You’re married to this man, so clearly you’re engaged enough in the relationship to keep him engaged. But it sounds like your inner landscape was quite tortured.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and returning to that idea of everything became a symbol. I’m eating, and I’m sleeping. And we’re having sex, and we are developing our relationship, but I was in a slightly different plane of existence than he was. So if we’re eating spaghetti, I scan my brain to think, “Have I ever seen a picture of him eating spaghetti or her eating spaghetti? Maybe spaghetti is their love language.” It was impossible for me to just simply enjoy anything or to really experience anything very presently except for jealousy, which was always at a remove from the real world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What were you most jealous of? What was the quality of the thing that she either had or you projected that she had that really was getting to you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>We were about to take a trip together to Las Vegas, and I had already developed my whole mythology of who she was, and what they were to each other, and hadn’t really discussed it with him yet. And before we left for the trip, I thought it would be wise to ask him about her just to see, to get the cards out on the table. He said, “Do you really wanna know?” I said, “I do.” He said, “She’s my soulmate, but it didn’t work out in this lifetime.” I remember that night going to sleep and thinking about how we could very well live a life together, but on our deathbed, he’d be waiting for the next life so he could be with her. And it felt impossible to deny that, as impossible as it felt to deny that I had feelings for him, that I was in love with him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How different was the character that began to be created in your mind? How different was that character from her reality?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>It’s important to note that I’ve never met her. That’s never happened. I’ve seen pictures of her, and not very many. But I’ve seen hundreds of pictures that she’s taken because she’s a photographer. I studied her, and I Googled her, and I did all the things you can do on the internet to find out about a person. She became somebody who was always with me, who was also standing against me. She was a threat to what I had. And as my husband and I got closer and closer to marriage and our lives melded together, possessable things came into our relationship because a marriage becomes a contract about things. It was my economic security. I quit my job. I depended on him. I lived in his house. I felt that I needed to keep her away as if she was an enemy or a threat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You mentioned that you have looked at many, many pictures that she took. So obviously, you were looking, you were scrolling through her social media account. It’s almost kind of like a form of masochism that many of us can probably relate to, especially in today’s social media world. Why do you think you continued to dig deeper? Why do we continue to scroll, even when it’s really, really painful?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>There was a part of me that wanted to see how the story ended and maybe even wanted to play a part in begetting the end. I was convinced that if this was my husband’s soulmate, they were meant to be together. And so it’s like, okay, let’s just get ahead. Let’s get to the end so I can be released, and we can all go home and know how this ends.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Meaning you were trying to push them together? How do you get that story to play out for yourself?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas:\u003c/strong> Do I tempt him? Do I enrage him? Do I push him? I never went so far as to reach out to her, but I tried to look like her. There was a part of me that was like, “Let’s prove that you’re attracted to this woman because you’ll be attracted to the version of me that looks like this woman.” And none of it worked; he stayed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Would you say that there was a sexual element, like a fetish that began to awaken in you around jealousy that you played out with him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s certainly the most adventurous I’ve ever been sexually, but part of it was getting to play someone else and getting to be bad. Sex is a really interesting thing in a marriage and in a relationship, because it’s not just nice. I did develop an understanding, or at least an experience, of obsession and of wanting to be someone else, to see what that would do to our relationship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>To that end, to find out more, to flesh out what you know, you steal your husband’s phone to read his old text messages to his ex. Describe that moment and what did you decide to do next once you had that information?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I had imagined all the ways that the two of them could have been together. I would insist on my imaginations and what’s actually real. Every attempt he made to deny that, I would say, “No, it’s not true. I know what happened.” When I read the texts, I confirmed some of what I thought I knew to be true. I started to feel really justified. There was a part of me that realized that I had really violated his privacy by going into his phone. I had peered into this relationship that I had no business peering into. I was pretty overwhelmed by shame at that point. And I took a bath, and I got really close to very seriously considering whether or not I ought to live, because if you see that kind of evil inside of you, what are you supposed to do with it? But the decision I came to was that I should marry him, and that we should have a child because it was a way to embody possession. It was a way to make him mine and to hold him to account in a way. Okay, you say you love me, then it’s time to be possessed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you feel on the other side, though? The way you described it in the book, it’s like this literal mythological character takes over your soul. Are you wrestling with that on a daily basis?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I’m hesitant to say, because I think that I’m at a point with jealousy where I’m wanting to throw my hands up and relinquish control and let it develop some substance on its own terms. I want to acknowledge that it’s noxious and that it is inevitable. As much as it’s a personal failure, it’s also a collective failure because it’s built in and incentivized into consumerism and social media, and it’s provoked. And there’s something that’s worth seeing in that, that it’s not necessarily something that needs to hide in the shadow of shame, even if it is a despotic impulse. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you think if you met her, it would end?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>No, it would change. It would change probably beyond recognition. It would be a new version of the jealous cycle. When you’re in a relationship, there’s the time that you spend with your partner, and then there’s the time that they exist apart from you. I often find myself aching to be a part of every one of his experiences, but that’s not what a relationship is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much, Sarah, for sharing your story and really humanizing a feeling that we all tend to shrink from. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Sarah Haas is a writer whose forthcoming book is \u003cem>Jealousy: A Memoir\u003c/em>. Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Jealousy is a possessive urge. It wants to take something and own it and have it, buy it, keep it. And that’s really predicated, when it comes to romantic jealousy, on turning another person into a thing in order to make that attempt, in order to have that urge. So it can be quite dangerous. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You even call it forbidden. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s hazardous, and it’s also inevitable. So it’s a part of us. It’s cyclical, and it’s a little bit ruthless as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Your memoir really centers on this type of jealousy that we’re talking about, an all-consuming jealousy. It gripped you in the very early stages of your relationship with your boyfriend, who is now your husband. It started with an old Instagram image of one of his former partners. At first, it seems like you’re kind of fascinated and even filled with a little bit of admiration. Is that how it started?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I plot jealousy on a spectrum — and it’s not mine; it’s borrowed from a philosopher, Max Scheler. At a certain point, envy gives way to jealousy just as green eventually on the color spectrum becomes blue, and it becomes poisonous. It’s a deadening. It’s hardening. When I first saw those pictures of my husband’s ex, I went through those stages from naivete, being myself and seeing her being herself, to distinguishing between us, one of us is different than the other, to judging her, wanting to make a qualification about who was better or worse, to admiring her bittersweetly, and eventually it gave way to jealousy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I plot jealousy on a spectrum — and it’s not mine; it’s borrowed from a philosopher, Max Scheler. At a certain point, envy gives way to jealousy just as green eventually on the color spectrum becomes blue, and it becomes poisonous. It’s a deadening. It’s hardening. When I first saw those pictures of my husband’s ex, I went through those stages from naivete, being myself and seeing her being herself, to distinguishing between us, one of us is different than the other, to judging her, wanting to make a qualification about who was better or worse, to admiring her bittersweetly, and eventually it gave way to jealousy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Then what happens? Because you move on pretty quickly to competitor and eventually a threat to your very existence.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I think my experience became mythological. In part, that’s because jealousy is a mythological phenomenon that swirls in all of the mythologies of the world. It’s really big and intense. It begs to take details and turn them into symbols. Like her blonde hair became so important to me. I hated it. I wanted it. I didn’t want it. I would go to Walmart and see blondes, and each of them had so much meaning that had nothing to do with them and their specifics. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I think my experience became mythological. In part, that’s because jealousy is a mythological phenomenon that swirls in all of the mythologies of the world. It’s really big and intense. It begs to take details and turn them into symbols. Like her blonde hair became so important to me. I hated it. I wanted it. I didn’t want it. I would go to Walmart and see blondes, and each of them had so much meaning that had nothing to do with them and their specifics. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And we should say you have long brown hair. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I have long, brown hair. So, as jealousy and I developed a relationship, I felt like it overtook me, and that was terrifying and thrilling. Also, I had to acknowledge, at a certain point, that jealousy seemed to have agency. What was happening to me wasn’t just one subject, but two. We outstripped the bounds of reality together. I resisted this possession. I didn’t. I wielded it, but either way we were bigger than reality.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I have long, brown hair. So, as jealousy and I developed a relationship, I felt like it overtook me, and that was terrifying and thrilling. Also, I had to acknowledge, at a certain point, that jealousy seemed to have agency. What was happening to me wasn’t just one subject, but two. We outstripped the bounds of reality together. I resisted this possession. I didn’t. I wielded it, but either way we were bigger than reality.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I mean, are you eating? Are you sleeping? Are you functioning? You’re married to this man, so clearly you’re engaged enough in the relationship to keep him engaged. But it sounds like your inner landscape was quite tortured.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I mean, are you eating? Are you sleeping? Are you functioning? You’re married to this man, so clearly you’re engaged enough in the relationship to keep him engaged. But it sounds like your inner landscape was quite tortured.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and returning to that idea of everything became a symbol. I’m eating, and I’m sleeping. And we’re having sex, and we are developing our relationship, but I was in a slightly different plane of existence than he was. So if we’re eating spaghetti, I scan my brain to think, “Have I ever seen a picture of him eating spaghetti or her eating spaghetti? Maybe spaghetti is their love language.” It was impossible for me to just simply enjoy anything or to really experience anything very presently except for jealousy, which was always at a remove from the real world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and returning to that idea of everything became a symbol. I’m eating, and I’m sleeping. And we’re having sex, and we are developing our relationship, but I was in a slightly different plane of existence than he was. So if we’re eating spaghetti, I scan my brain to think, “Have I ever seen a picture of him eating spaghetti or her eating spaghetti? Maybe spaghetti is their love language.” It was impossible for me to just simply enjoy anything or to really experience anything very presently except for jealousy, which was always at a remove from the real world.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What were you most jealous of? What was the quality of the thing that she either had or you projected that she had that really was getting to you?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>We were about to take a trip together to Las Vegas, and I had already developed my whole mythology of who she was, and what they were to each other, and hadn’t really discussed it with him yet. And before we left for the trip, I thought it would be wise to ask him about her just to see, to get the cards out on the table. He said, “Do you really wanna know?” I said, “I do.” He said, “She’s my soulmate, but it didn’t work out in this lifetime.” I remember that night going to sleep and thinking about how we could very well live a life together, but on our deathbed, he’d be waiting for the next life so he could be with her. And it felt impossible to deny that, as impossible as it felt to deny that I had feelings for him, that I was in love with him.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>We were about to take a trip together to Las Vegas, and I had already developed my whole mythology of who she was, and what they were to each other, and hadn’t really discussed it with him yet. And before we left for the trip, I thought it would be wise to ask him about her just to see, to get the cards out on the table. He said, “Do you really wanna know?” I said, “I do.” He said, “She’s my soulmate, but it didn’t work out in this lifetime.” I remember that night going to sleep and thinking about how we could very well live a life together, but on our deathbed, he’d be waiting for the next life so he could be with her. And it felt impossible to deny that, as impossible as it felt to deny that I had feelings for him, that I was in love with him.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How different was the character that began to be created in your mind? How different was that character from her reality?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>It’s important to note that I’ve never met her. That’s never happened. I’ve seen pictures of her, and not very many. But I’ve seen hundreds of pictures that she’s taken because she’s a photographer. I studied her, and I Googled her, and I did all the things you can do on the internet to find out about a person. She became somebody who was always with me, who was also standing against me. She was a threat to what I had. And as my husband and I got closer and closer to marriage and our lives melded together, possessable things came into our relationship because a marriage becomes a contract about things. It was my economic security. I quit my job. I depended on him. I lived in his house. I felt that I needed to keep her away as if she was an enemy or a threat.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>It’s important to note that I’ve never met her. That’s never happened. I’ve seen pictures of her, and not very many. But I’ve seen hundreds of pictures that she’s taken because she’s a photographer. I studied her, and I Googled her, and I did all the things you can do on the internet to find out about a person. She became somebody who was always with me, who was also standing against me. She was a threat to what I had. And as my husband and I got closer and closer to marriage and our lives melded together, possessable things came into our relationship because a marriage becomes a contract about things. It was my economic security. I quit my job. I depended on him. I lived in his house. I felt that I needed to keep her away as if she was an enemy or a threat.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You mentioned that you have looked at many, many pictures that she took. So obviously, you were looking, you were scrolling through her social media account. It’s almost kind of like a form of masochism that many of us can probably relate to, especially in today’s social media world. Why do you think you continued to dig deeper? Why do we continue to scroll, even when it’s really, really painful?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You mentioned that you have looked at many, many pictures that she took. So obviously, you were looking, you were scrolling through her social media account. It’s almost kind of like a form of masochism that many of us can probably relate to, especially in today’s social media world. Why do you think you continued to dig deeper? Why do we continue to scroll, even when it’s really, really painful?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>There was a part of me that wanted to see how the story ended and maybe even wanted to play a part in begetting the end. I was convinced that if this was my husband’s soulmate, they were meant to be together. And so it’s like, okay, let’s just get ahead. Let’s get to the end so I can be released, and we can all go home and know how this ends.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>There was a part of me that wanted to see how the story ended and maybe even wanted to play a part in begetting the end. I was convinced that if this was my husband’s soulmate, they were meant to be together. And so it’s like, okay, let’s just get ahead. Let’s get to the end so I can be released, and we can all go home and know how this ends.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Meaning you were trying to push them together? How do you get that story to play out for yourself?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas:\u003c/strong> Do I tempt him? Do I enrage him? Do I push him? I never went so far as to reach out to her, but I tried to look like her. There was a part of me that was like, “Let’s prove that you’re attracted to this woman because you’ll be attracted to the version of me that looks like this woman.” And none of it worked; he stayed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas:\u003c/strong> Do I tempt him? Do I enrage him? Do I push him? I never went so far as to reach out to her, but I tried to look like her. There was a part of me that was like, “Let’s prove that you’re attracted to this woman because you’ll be attracted to the version of me that looks like this woman.” And none of it worked; he stayed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Would you say that there was a sexual element, like a fetish that began to awaken in you around jealousy that you played out with him?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Would you say that there was a sexual element, like a fetish that began to awaken in you around jealousy that you played out with him?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s certainly the most adventurous I’ve ever been sexually, but part of it was getting to play someone else and getting to be bad. Sex is a really interesting thing in a marriage and in a relationship, because it’s not just nice. I did develop an understanding, or at least an experience, of obsession and of wanting to be someone else, to see what that would do to our relationship.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s certainly the most adventurous I’ve ever been sexually, but part of it was getting to play someone else and getting to be bad. Sex is a really interesting thing in a marriage and in a relationship, because it’s not just nice. I did develop an understanding, or at least an experience, of obsession and of wanting to be someone else, to see what that would do to our relationship.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>To that end, to find out more, to flesh out what you know, you steal your husband’s phone to read his old text messages to his ex. Describe that moment and what did you decide to do next once you had that information?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I had imagined all the ways that the two of them could have been together. I would insist on my imaginations and what’s actually real. Every attempt he made to deny that, I would say, “No, it’s not true. I know what happened.” When I read the texts, I confirmed some of what I thought I knew to be true. I started to feel really justified. There was a part of me that realized that I had really violated his privacy by going into his phone. I had peered into this relationship that I had no business peering into. I was pretty overwhelmed by shame at that point. And I took a bath, and I got really close to very seriously considering whether or not I ought to live, because if you see that kind of evil inside of you, what are you supposed to do with it? But the decision I came to was that I should marry him, and that we should have a child because it was a way to embody possession. It was a way to make him mine and to hold him to account in a way. Okay, you say you love me, then it’s time to be possessed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I had imagined all the ways that the two of them could have been together. I would insist on my imaginations and what’s actually real. Every attempt he made to deny that, I would say, “No, it’s not true. I know what happened.” When I read the texts, I confirmed some of what I thought I knew to be true. I started to feel really justified. There was a part of me that realized that I had really violated his privacy by going into his phone. I had peered into this relationship that I had no business peering into. I was pretty overwhelmed by shame at that point. And I took a bath, and I got really close to very seriously considering whether or not I ought to live, because if you see that kind of evil inside of you, what are you supposed to do with it? But the decision I came to was that I should marry him, and that we should have a child because it was a way to embody possession. It was a way to make him mine and to hold him to account in a way. Okay, you say you love me, then it’s time to be possessed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you feel on the other side, though? The way you described it in the book, it’s like this literal mythological character takes over your soul. Are you wrestling with that on a daily basis?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you feel on the other side, though? The way you described it in the book, it’s like this literal mythological character takes over your soul. Are you wrestling with that on a daily basis?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I’m hesitant to say, because I think that I’m at a point with jealousy where I’m wanting to throw my hands up and relinquish control and let it develop some substance on its own terms. I want to acknowledge that it’s noxious and that it is inevitable. As much as it’s a personal failure, it’s also a collective failure because it’s built in and incentivized into consumerism and social media, and it’s provoked. And there’s something that’s worth seeing in that, that it’s not necessarily something that needs to hide in the shadow of shame, even if it is a despotic impulse. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I’m hesitant to say, because I think that I’m at a point with jealousy where I’m wanting to throw my hands up and relinquish control and let it develop some substance on its own terms. I want to acknowledge that it’s noxious and that it is inevitable. As much as it’s a personal failure, it’s also a collective failure because it’s built in and incentivized into consumerism and social media, and it’s provoked. And there’s something that’s worth seeing in that, that it’s not necessarily something that needs to hide in the shadow of shame, even if it is a despotic impulse. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you think if you met her, it would end?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you think if you met her, it would end?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>No, it would change. It would change probably beyond recognition. It would be a new version of the jealous cycle. When you’re in a relationship, there’s the time that you spend with your partner, and then there’s the time that they exist apart from you. I often find myself aching to be a part of every one of his experiences, but that’s not what a relationship is.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>No, it would change. It would change probably beyond recognition. It would be a new version of the jealous cycle. When you’re in a relationship, there’s the time that you spend with your partner, and then there’s the time that they exist apart from you. I often find myself aching to be a part of every one of his experiences, but that’s not what a relationship is.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much, Sarah, for sharing your story and really humanizing a feeling that we all tend to shrink from. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much, Sarah, for sharing your story and really humanizing a feeling that we all tend to shrink from. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Sarah Haas is a writer whose forthcoming book is \u003cem>Jealousy: A Memoir\u003c/em>. Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Sarah Haas is a writer whose forthcoming book is \u003cem>Jealousy: A Memoir\u003c/em>. Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "Writer Sarah Haas became obsessed with a woman she’d never met: her husband’s ex. In her new book, Jealousy: A Memoir, she explores how jealousy can consume us, distort reality and begin to feel like a force of its own.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jealousy can begin as curiosity, even admiration, before it curdles into something darker. For writer Sarah Haas, an old Instagram post of her husband’s ex became the root of an obsession. She began to stalk the woman online, pore over her photographs and even tried to look like her. She began to feel the woman’s presence in ordinary moments in her marriage, the intrusive thoughts spiraling her into anger and shame. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I studied her, and I Googled her, and I did all the things you can do on the internet to find out about a person,” said Haas. “And she became somebody who was always with me and who was standing against me. She was a threat to what I had.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk to Haas about the destructive power of jealousy and the source of the emotion she calls both noxious and inevitable. Haas’s forthcoming book is “Jealousy: A Memoir.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Learn more about Sarah Haas and her work \u003ca href=\"https://sarahrosehaas.com/about/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas, \u003c/strong>author, “Jealousy: A Memoir”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Sarah, you have really experienced the absolute depths of jealousy. How do you define it? And how is it potentially different from envy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Jealousy is a possessive urge. It wants to take something and own it and have it, buy it, keep it. And that’s really predicated, when it comes to romantic jealousy, on turning another person into a thing in order to make that attempt, in order to have that urge. So it can be quite dangerous. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You even call it forbidden. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s hazardous, and it’s also inevitable. So it’s a part of us. It’s cyclical, and it’s a little bit ruthless as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Your memoir really centers on this type of jealousy that we’re talking about, an all-consuming jealousy. It gripped you in the very early stages of your relationship with your boyfriend, who is now your husband. It started with an old Instagram image of one of his former partners. At first, it seems like you’re kind of fascinated and even filled with a little bit of admiration. Is that how it started?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I plot jealousy on a spectrum — and it’s not mine; it’s borrowed from a philosopher, Max Scheler. At a certain point, envy gives way to jealousy just as green eventually on the color spectrum becomes blue, and it becomes poisonous. It’s a deadening. It’s hardening. When I first saw those pictures of my husband’s ex, I went through those stages from naivete, being myself and seeing her being herself, to distinguishing between us, one of us is different than the other, to judging her, wanting to make a qualification about who was better or worse, to admiring her bittersweetly, and eventually it gave way to jealousy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Then what happens? Because you move on pretty quickly to competitor and eventually a threat to your very existence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I think my experience became mythological. In part, that’s because jealousy is a mythological phenomenon that swirls in all of the mythologies of the world. It’s really big and intense. It begs to take details and turn them into symbols. Like her blonde hair became so important to me. I hated it. I wanted it. I didn’t want it. I would go to Walmart and see blondes, and each of them had so much meaning that had nothing to do with them and their specifics. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And we should say you have long brown hair. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I have long, brown hair. So, as jealousy and I developed a relationship, I felt like it overtook me, and that was terrifying and thrilling. Also, I had to acknowledge, at a certain point, that jealousy seemed to have agency. What was happening to me wasn’t just one subject, but two. We outstripped the bounds of reality together. I resisted this possession. I didn’t. I wielded it, but either way we were bigger than reality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I mean, are you eating? Are you sleeping? Are you functioning? You’re married to this man, so clearly you’re engaged enough in the relationship to keep him engaged. But it sounds like your inner landscape was quite tortured.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and returning to that idea of everything became a symbol. I’m eating, and I’m sleeping. And we’re having sex, and we are developing our relationship, but I was in a slightly different plane of existence than he was. So if we’re eating spaghetti, I scan my brain to think, “Have I ever seen a picture of him eating spaghetti or her eating spaghetti? Maybe spaghetti is their love language.” It was impossible for me to just simply enjoy anything or to really experience anything very presently except for jealousy, which was always at a remove from the real world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What were you most jealous of? What was the quality of the thing that she either had or you projected that she had that really was getting to you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>We were about to take a trip together to Las Vegas, and I had already developed my whole mythology of who she was, and what they were to each other, and hadn’t really discussed it with him yet. And before we left for the trip, I thought it would be wise to ask him about her just to see, to get the cards out on the table. He said, “Do you really wanna know?” I said, “I do.” He said, “She’s my soulmate, but it didn’t work out in this lifetime.” I remember that night going to sleep and thinking about how we could very well live a life together, but on our deathbed, he’d be waiting for the next life so he could be with her. And it felt impossible to deny that, as impossible as it felt to deny that I had feelings for him, that I was in love with him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How different was the character that began to be created in your mind? How different was that character from her reality?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>It’s important to note that I’ve never met her. That’s never happened. I’ve seen pictures of her, and not very many. But I’ve seen hundreds of pictures that she’s taken because she’s a photographer. I studied her, and I Googled her, and I did all the things you can do on the internet to find out about a person. She became somebody who was always with me, who was also standing against me. She was a threat to what I had. And as my husband and I got closer and closer to marriage and our lives melded together, possessable things came into our relationship because a marriage becomes a contract about things. It was my economic security. I quit my job. I depended on him. I lived in his house. I felt that I needed to keep her away as if she was an enemy or a threat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You mentioned that you have looked at many, many pictures that she took. So obviously, you were looking, you were scrolling through her social media account. It’s almost kind of like a form of masochism that many of us can probably relate to, especially in today’s social media world. Why do you think you continued to dig deeper? Why do we continue to scroll, even when it’s really, really painful?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>There was a part of me that wanted to see how the story ended and maybe even wanted to play a part in begetting the end. I was convinced that if this was my husband’s soulmate, they were meant to be together. And so it’s like, okay, let’s just get ahead. Let’s get to the end so I can be released, and we can all go home and know how this ends.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Meaning you were trying to push them together? How do you get that story to play out for yourself?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas:\u003c/strong> Do I tempt him? Do I enrage him? Do I push him? I never went so far as to reach out to her, but I tried to look like her. There was a part of me that was like, “Let’s prove that you’re attracted to this woman because you’ll be attracted to the version of me that looks like this woman.” And none of it worked; he stayed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Would you say that there was a sexual element, like a fetish that began to awaken in you around jealousy that you played out with him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s certainly the most adventurous I’ve ever been sexually, but part of it was getting to play someone else and getting to be bad. Sex is a really interesting thing in a marriage and in a relationship, because it’s not just nice. I did develop an understanding, or at least an experience, of obsession and of wanting to be someone else, to see what that would do to our relationship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>To that end, to find out more, to flesh out what you know, you steal your husband’s phone to read his old text messages to his ex. Describe that moment and what did you decide to do next once you had that information?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I had imagined all the ways that the two of them could have been together. I would insist on my imaginations and what’s actually real. Every attempt he made to deny that, I would say, “No, it’s not true. I know what happened.” When I read the texts, I confirmed some of what I thought I knew to be true. I started to feel really justified. There was a part of me that realized that I had really violated his privacy by going into his phone. I had peered into this relationship that I had no business peering into. I was pretty overwhelmed by shame at that point. And I took a bath, and I got really close to very seriously considering whether or not I ought to live, because if you see that kind of evil inside of you, what are you supposed to do with it? But the decision I came to was that I should marry him, and that we should have a child because it was a way to embody possession. It was a way to make him mine and to hold him to account in a way. Okay, you say you love me, then it’s time to be possessed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you feel on the other side, though? The way you described it in the book, it’s like this literal mythological character takes over your soul. Are you wrestling with that on a daily basis?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I’m hesitant to say, because I think that I’m at a point with jealousy where I’m wanting to throw my hands up and relinquish control and let it develop some substance on its own terms. I want to acknowledge that it’s noxious and that it is inevitable. As much as it’s a personal failure, it’s also a collective failure because it’s built in and incentivized into consumerism and social media, and it’s provoked. And there’s something that’s worth seeing in that, that it’s not necessarily something that needs to hide in the shadow of shame, even if it is a despotic impulse. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you think if you met her, it would end?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>No, it would change. It would change probably beyond recognition. It would be a new version of the jealous cycle. When you’re in a relationship, there’s the time that you spend with your partner, and then there’s the time that they exist apart from you. I often find myself aching to be a part of every one of his experiences, but that’s not what a relationship is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much, Sarah, for sharing your story and really humanizing a feeling that we all tend to shrink from. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Sarah Haas is a writer whose forthcoming book is \u003cem>Jealousy: A Memoir\u003c/em>. Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In love, some of us hold tightly to our independence, while others crave closeness and reassurance. Attachment theory calls those tendencies avoidant or anxious — and we’ve long assumed they’re wired into us from an early age.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Columbia University psychiatrist Amir Levine, author of the bestseller “Attached,” says attachment is far more flexible than we realize. He says anyone can build a more secure life by surrounding themselves with a “village” of dependable relationships. “You can let your guard down, and you can explore more,” Levine said. “You can dare more.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk with Levine about his new book, “Secure,” and how the relationships we build can change the way we attach.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you can learn about your own attachment style \u003ca href=\"https://amirlevinemd.com/attachment-style-quiz/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine,\u003c/strong> associate professor of clinical psychiatry, Columbia University; author, \u003cem>Secure: The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are the attachment styles?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>There are four recognized attachment styles: anxious, avoidant, secure, and fearful avoidant. People who are anxious love a lot of closeness, but they need reassurance. They’re very sensitive to any potential disruption in that closeness.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>People who are avoidant don’t like too much closeness. Independence comes first. And then, secure, they go with the flow. If you need a lot reassurance, they’ll give you reassurance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you need your distance, they’ll give you distance. They’re not gonna take it to heart, and they’re not going to get upset. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the fourth one, which is more rare, is a combination of people who want to be in a relationship and want closeness, but they’re also very sensitive to being potentially rebuffed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s like, I need people, but I’m also really scared of people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And the thesis of your book is that if you fall into one of these insecure categories, there’s actually hope for you once you create a secure village with people who are consistent and responsive and predictable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>We have a general attachment style, which really talks about our general approach and ideas about the world and relationships. And I find that even if your general attachment style is insecure, oftentimes people do report that they have at least one or two relationships that are secure, and we can learn to give more room and attention to those secure islands. Because oftentimes our brain tends to really focus on the insecure relationships in our lives because the secure people are boring. They always show up for us. They never bother us. They never impinge on our territory. They’re just there. We tend to think about them less. There’s less drama, but part of secure priming therapy and my coaching is to shift our attention and interact more in those secure relationships. It’s actually in those interactions that our brains start to become more secure. And the more we engulf ourselves in that secure village, the more secure we become, and change our brain to become secure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And it’s not just the interactions with our most crucial relationships; the seemingly insignificant minor interactions that we’re having all day long with the barista, with our boss, with a colleague. Those make a difference.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>I think when people come to therapy, they often think they have to talk about the difficult things that happened in childhood, or really big things that have happened to them. And they hardly ever think about what I’ve come to call these seemingly insignificant minor interactions — those little day-to-day interactions that we have with our significant other and people who are close to us, but also outside of that as a potential vehicle to change the brain. Even by saying hello to someone in the elevator. Or when I take Ubers, I used to be on my phone; don’t talk to me. But I started to really engage more and talk to Uber drivers. It’s been so rewarding. It’s fertilizer for your brain.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>The neuroplasticity of your brain is actually changing in these moments where instead of picking up your phone and texting on the Uber, you have a good interaction. Talk about the biology of what’s happening as you build this village.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>By creating this highly connected life for ourselves through assembling a secure village, through those little interactions of acknowledging other people, having other people acknowledge you, you create all these new connections in the brain. Those connections mirror other connections in the mind that give the brain this message that you’re safe. You can let your guard down, and you can explore more. You can dare more. You can feel the self-esteem, the control over one’s life, all of that stuff really kicks into place. But it’s not just the psychological, it really affects us on a bodily level.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Flesh out some of the findings that you illustrate in your book.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>The findings blew me away because consistent research findings have shown being more connected increases longevity. There’s one study that showed that when people feel greater connection, it increases survival by 50%. It increases brain matter. One study showed that when people reported feeling more connected to others, they were less likely to come down with a common cold. But also one study that came out this year found that insecure relationships really take a toll on our brain,and our biology because it showed signs of accelerated biological aging with every insecure relationship that we have in our life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What is the one thing that someone should change tomorrow?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>So I quote in the book, Simone Weil, such a provocative philosopher. She says, “Attention is the rarest, purest form of generosity.” Give consistent attention to others. Before writing \u003cem>Secure\u003c/em>, I never thought about texting back or being available to others as a form of generosity. But I think that is a form of generosity, that you’re showing up to people in a way that really is giving them something. Like that really is the highest form of generosity. I think that can be really helpful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amir, thank you so much for inspiring me to look people in the eyes and take care of them at such a much deeper level.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>Thanks, I really enjoyed this conversation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amir Levine is an associate professor of clinical psychiatry at Columbia University and author of \u003cem>Secure: The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life\u003c/em>. Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And you can learn about your own attachment style \u003ca href=\"https://amirlevinemd.com/attachment-style-quiz/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>People who are avoidant don’t like too much closeness. Independence comes first. And then, secure, they go with the flow. If you need a lot reassurance, they’ll give you reassurance.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And the thesis of your book is that if you fall into one of these insecure categories, there’s actually hope for you once you create a secure village with people who are consistent and responsive and predictable.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>We have a general attachment style, which really talks about our general approach and ideas about the world and relationships. And I find that even if your general attachment style is insecure, oftentimes people do report that they have at least one or two relationships that are secure, and we can learn to give more room and attention to those secure islands. Because oftentimes our brain tends to really focus on the insecure relationships in our lives because the secure people are boring. They always show up for us. They never bother us. They never impinge on our territory. They’re just there. We tend to think about them less. There’s less drama, but part of secure priming therapy and my coaching is to shift our attention and interact more in those secure relationships. It’s actually in those interactions that our brains start to become more secure. And the more we engulf ourselves in that secure village, the more secure we become, and change our brain to become secure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>We have a general attachment style, which really talks about our general approach and ideas about the world and relationships. And I find that even if your general attachment style is insecure, oftentimes people do report that they have at least one or two relationships that are secure, and we can learn to give more room and attention to those secure islands. Because oftentimes our brain tends to really focus on the insecure relationships in our lives because the secure people are boring. They always show up for us. They never bother us. They never impinge on our territory. They’re just there. We tend to think about them less. There’s less drama, but part of secure priming therapy and my coaching is to shift our attention and interact more in those secure relationships. It’s actually in those interactions that our brains start to become more secure. And the more we engulf ourselves in that secure village, the more secure we become, and change our brain to become secure.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And it’s not just the interactions with our most crucial relationships; the seemingly insignificant minor interactions that we’re having all day long with the barista, with our boss, with a colleague. Those make a difference.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>I think when people come to therapy, they often think they have to talk about the difficult things that happened in childhood, or really big things that have happened to them. And they hardly ever think about what I’ve come to call these seemingly insignificant minor interactions — those little day-to-day interactions that we have with our significant other and people who are close to us, but also outside of that as a potential vehicle to change the brain. Even by saying hello to someone in the elevator. Or when I take Ubers, I used to be on my phone; don’t talk to me. But I started to really engage more and talk to Uber drivers. It’s been so rewarding. It’s fertilizer for your brain.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>I think when people come to therapy, they often think they have to talk about the difficult things that happened in childhood, or really big things that have happened to them. And they hardly ever think about what I’ve come to call these seemingly insignificant minor interactions — those little day-to-day interactions that we have with our significant other and people who are close to us, but also outside of that as a potential vehicle to change the brain. Even by saying hello to someone in the elevator. Or when I take Ubers, I used to be on my phone; don’t talk to me. But I started to really engage more and talk to Uber drivers. It’s been so rewarding. It’s fertilizer for your brain.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>The neuroplasticity of your brain is actually changing in these moments where instead of picking up your phone and texting on the Uber, you have a good interaction. Talk about the biology of what’s happening as you build this village.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>The neuroplasticity of your brain is actually changing in these moments where instead of picking up your phone and texting on the Uber, you have a good interaction. Talk about the biology of what’s happening as you build this village.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>By creating this highly connected life for ourselves through assembling a secure village, through those little interactions of acknowledging other people, having other people acknowledge you, you create all these new connections in the brain. Those connections mirror other connections in the mind that give the brain this message that you’re safe. You can let your guard down, and you can explore more. You can dare more. You can feel the self-esteem, the control over one’s life, all of that stuff really kicks into place. But it’s not just the psychological, it really affects us on a bodily level.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>By creating this highly connected life for ourselves through assembling a secure village, through those little interactions of acknowledging other people, having other people acknowledge you, you create all these new connections in the brain. Those connections mirror other connections in the mind that give the brain this message that you’re safe. You can let your guard down, and you can explore more. You can dare more. You can feel the self-esteem, the control over one’s life, all of that stuff really kicks into place. But it’s not just the psychological, it really affects us on a bodily level.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Flesh out some of the findings that you illustrate in your book.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>The findings blew me away because consistent research findings have shown being more connected increases longevity. There’s one study that showed that when people feel greater connection, it increases survival by 50%. It increases brain matter. One study showed that when people reported feeling more connected to others, they were less likely to come down with a common cold. But also one study that came out this year found that insecure relationships really take a toll on our brain,and our biology because it showed signs of accelerated biological aging with every insecure relationship that we have in our life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>The findings blew me away because consistent research findings have shown being more connected increases longevity. There’s one study that showed that when people feel greater connection, it increases survival by 50%. It increases brain matter. One study showed that when people reported feeling more connected to others, they were less likely to come down with a common cold. But also one study that came out this year found that insecure relationships really take a toll on our brain,and our biology because it showed signs of accelerated biological aging with every insecure relationship that we have in our life.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>So I quote in the book, Simone Weil, such a provocative philosopher. She says, “Attention is the rarest, purest form of generosity.” Give consistent attention to others. Before writing \u003cem>Secure\u003c/em>, I never thought about texting back or being available to others as a form of generosity. But I think that is a form of generosity, that you’re showing up to people in a way that really is giving them something. Like that really is the highest form of generosity. I think that can be really helpful.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>So I quote in the book, Simone Weil, such a provocative philosopher. She says, “Attention is the rarest, purest form of generosity.” Give consistent attention to others. Before writing \u003cem>Secure\u003c/em>, I never thought about texting back or being available to others as a form of generosity. But I think that is a form of generosity, that you’re showing up to people in a way that really is giving them something. Like that really is the highest form of generosity. I think that can be really helpful.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amir, thank you so much for inspiring me to look people in the eyes and take care of them at such a much deeper level.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amir, thank you so much for inspiring me to look people in the eyes and take care of them at such a much deeper level.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>Thanks, I really enjoyed this conversation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amir Levine is an associate professor of clinical psychiatry at Columbia University and author of \u003cem>Secure: The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life\u003c/em>. Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amir Levine is an associate professor of clinical psychiatry at Columbia University and author of \u003cem>Secure: The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life\u003c/em>. Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg.\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In love, some of us hold tightly to our independence, while others crave closeness and reassurance. Attachment theory calls those tendencies avoidant or anxious — and we’ve long assumed they’re wired into us from an early age.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Columbia University psychiatrist Amir Levine, author of the bestseller “Attached,” says attachment is far more flexible than we realize. He says anyone can build a more secure life by surrounding themselves with a “village” of dependable relationships. “You can let your guard down, and you can explore more,” Levine said. “You can dare more.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk with Levine about his new book, “Secure,” and how the relationships we build can change the way we attach.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you can learn about your own attachment style \u003ca href=\"https://amirlevinemd.com/attachment-style-quiz/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine,\u003c/strong> associate professor of clinical psychiatry, Columbia University; author, \u003cem>Secure: The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are the attachment styles?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>There are four recognized attachment styles: anxious, avoidant, secure, and fearful avoidant. People who are anxious love a lot of closeness, but they need reassurance. They’re very sensitive to any potential disruption in that closeness.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>People who are avoidant don’t like too much closeness. Independence comes first. And then, secure, they go with the flow. If you need a lot reassurance, they’ll give you reassurance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you need your distance, they’ll give you distance. They’re not gonna take it to heart, and they’re not going to get upset. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the fourth one, which is more rare, is a combination of people who want to be in a relationship and want closeness, but they’re also very sensitive to being potentially rebuffed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s like, I need people, but I’m also really scared of people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And the thesis of your book is that if you fall into one of these insecure categories, there’s actually hope for you once you create a secure village with people who are consistent and responsive and predictable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>We have a general attachment style, which really talks about our general approach and ideas about the world and relationships. And I find that even if your general attachment style is insecure, oftentimes people do report that they have at least one or two relationships that are secure, and we can learn to give more room and attention to those secure islands. Because oftentimes our brain tends to really focus on the insecure relationships in our lives because the secure people are boring. They always show up for us. They never bother us. They never impinge on our territory. They’re just there. We tend to think about them less. There’s less drama, but part of secure priming therapy and my coaching is to shift our attention and interact more in those secure relationships. It’s actually in those interactions that our brains start to become more secure. And the more we engulf ourselves in that secure village, the more secure we become, and change our brain to become secure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And it’s not just the interactions with our most crucial relationships; the seemingly insignificant minor interactions that we’re having all day long with the barista, with our boss, with a colleague. Those make a difference.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>I think when people come to therapy, they often think they have to talk about the difficult things that happened in childhood, or really big things that have happened to them. And they hardly ever think about what I’ve come to call these seemingly insignificant minor interactions — those little day-to-day interactions that we have with our significant other and people who are close to us, but also outside of that as a potential vehicle to change the brain. Even by saying hello to someone in the elevator. Or when I take Ubers, I used to be on my phone; don’t talk to me. But I started to really engage more and talk to Uber drivers. It’s been so rewarding. It’s fertilizer for your brain.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>The neuroplasticity of your brain is actually changing in these moments where instead of picking up your phone and texting on the Uber, you have a good interaction. Talk about the biology of what’s happening as you build this village.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>By creating this highly connected life for ourselves through assembling a secure village, through those little interactions of acknowledging other people, having other people acknowledge you, you create all these new connections in the brain. Those connections mirror other connections in the mind that give the brain this message that you’re safe. You can let your guard down, and you can explore more. You can dare more. You can feel the self-esteem, the control over one’s life, all of that stuff really kicks into place. But it’s not just the psychological, it really affects us on a bodily level.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Flesh out some of the findings that you illustrate in your book.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>The findings blew me away because consistent research findings have shown being more connected increases longevity. There’s one study that showed that when people feel greater connection, it increases survival by 50%. It increases brain matter. One study showed that when people reported feeling more connected to others, they were less likely to come down with a common cold. But also one study that came out this year found that insecure relationships really take a toll on our brain,and our biology because it showed signs of accelerated biological aging with every insecure relationship that we have in our life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What is the one thing that someone should change tomorrow?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>So I quote in the book, Simone Weil, such a provocative philosopher. She says, “Attention is the rarest, purest form of generosity.” Give consistent attention to others. Before writing \u003cem>Secure\u003c/em>, I never thought about texting back or being available to others as a form of generosity. But I think that is a form of generosity, that you’re showing up to people in a way that really is giving them something. Like that really is the highest form of generosity. I think that can be really helpful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amir, thank you so much for inspiring me to look people in the eyes and take care of them at such a much deeper level.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>Thanks, I really enjoyed this conversation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amir Levine is an associate professor of clinical psychiatry at Columbia University and author of \u003cem>Secure: The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life\u003c/em>. Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Why can a compliment make us anxious? Why do we sometimes expect rejection even when a relationship is going well? Psychologist Marisa Franco says the negative stories we harbor about ourselves can be stubborn, leading us to look for evidence that confirms our deepest fears about who we are.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They like me now, but it’s only a matter of time. They’re gonna figure out who I really am,” Franco says, describing how low self-esteem can make acceptance itself feel threatening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk to Franco about her new book, “Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment,” and how we can question old beliefs about ourselves, respond differently to difficult emotions and build a more secure sense of self.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Learn more about Marisa Franco and her work \u003ca href=\"https://drmarisagfranco.com/about/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco,\u003c/strong> psychologist; author, \u003cem>Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment\u003c/em>.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you define worth?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>I define worth as treating your internal world as if it matters. Treating all of your feelings as if they’re worthy of your attention and your compassion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You argue that once we come to believe something about ourselves, “I’m not lovable, or people leave, or I don’t matter,” we actually start looking for evidence that that is true. How does that work? How are we shaping our reality by those beliefs?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Anyone who’s tried to improve their self-esteem can vouch that it’s extremely difficult. And the reason why is because researchers call self-esteem a theory of self. And if it’s low, you think that other people will reject you and harm will come. If it’s high, you think that people will accept you and good things will happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, what happens when something happens that’s counter to your theory? If people with low self-esteem get positive feedback from other people, their blood pressure rises. They actually get sicker months later. And so what’s happening is, if you have this theory of self, information that’s counter to that theory does not elevate the self.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It makes you feel like you’re in some chaotic, unpredictable world, and it’s only a matter of time until that harm comes again; you’re sort of waiting for the shoe to drop. So there’s anxiety. They like me now, but it’s only a matter of time. They’re gonna figure out who I really am. It’s almost better if my sense of self is verified, if I get negative feedback about my sense of self, because at least that’s familiar. And in some ways, familiarity regulates us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: How do fixed ideas about ourselves — ‘I’m autonomous, I’m independent, I’m a loner’ — get in the way? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>So if you think about treating your internal world as if it matters, treating every feeling as if that matters, often you’re gonna have feelings that are counter to your sense of identity. Maybe someone really masculine feels weak. And we might have this top-down approach where we try to suppress those parts of ourselves, push them away because they don’t match our identity. But really, I’m pushing for a version of security that’s about welcoming whoever you are and wherever you’re at. And in the present, I am always evolving as a person. I’m having new feelings, I’m having new experiences, I’m having new emotions. Having a sense of self-worth is about being open to all of those emotions because your regard for yourself does not depend on you being the self-made person, or being the most attractive person in the room. Your regard for yourself is there no matter what, even as your identity changes over time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If we have some really rigid ideas about ourselves, you talk about how psychedelics might be one way to kind of lose ourselves to find ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Yeah, exactly. There was someone I interviewed for the book named Esme, and she tried to make a friend in eighth grade, and it didn’t go well. She would call this friend every day, and eventually that friend was like, “Why are you calling me? We’re not friends.” Heartbreaking. That memory shaped Esme’s ability to make friends for many decades later. So I asked her, what would she have liked to say to her younger self at the time? And I could see her being so half-hearted. She was like, “I would like to tell myself, it’s just a blip. People are going to accept you, but I don’t really know.” What psychedelics do is they deactivate the seed of the self in the brain. You are now able to go back to a memory almost as if you’re a third party. It deactivates the amygdala as well. So that memory is far less threatening. Esme would potentially be able to go back to that memory and see, it’s so beautiful that you put yourself out there. Not every time will that go right. But that doesn’t mean that something’s fundamentally wrong with you — that is just part of the journey of connecting with people. And she might actually be able to internalize that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You say we should aim to be secure-ish. What exactly does secure-ish mean?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>I feel like what I see in the Zeitgeist around attachment is: if you shame yourself enough for your insecurities, they’ll go away, right? And fundamentally, I’ve seen so many people just like me trying to act or cosplay or perform security, even when they’re not feeling secure within. And what happens when I see myself as secure and I’m anxious in a relationship? Or I feel that mysterious urge to withdraw. Or I feel overwhelmed or overstimulated in the relationship. I’m not able to fully acknowledge my anxious or my avoidant reactions. Instead, I’m trying to be secure. That’s the narrative I’m going with, and I’m going to ignore those other parts of myself. But really, I am anxious. That’s okay. What does that part of me need?. Turning towards that part of you ultimately leads to a greater sense of security. I think we can achieve that more. To be human is to deal with insecurities, messy feelings, things you don’t want to feel, and all of that is okay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing from you is that when these feelings come up — whether it’s an anxious response, an avoidant response, or that negative critical voice in your head — we should actually be in conversation with that part of ourselves in a much kinder way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Yeah, absolutely. Dr. Skyler Jackson said, “I wanted to know what small things are actually big for me.” And that, to me, had often been a place of shame — if I had a big reaction to something small. But with him, I heard this sort of openness, this curiosity about the self, this welcoming of my internal experience that very much matched the sort of things that I heard suggested by Carl Rogers, a famous psychologist, who was like: Let your aggressive impulses, your anti-social impulses — you have to be able to acknowledge them, because you can only change yourself when you deeply accept those parts of you. And I think a lot of us have the misconception — and this is fair — that if I acknowledge those feelings, it’s gonna make them worse, right? Labeling your feelings, tolerating what they feel like in your body, accepting them — those are the things that finally make our feelings calm down. So we don’t have to be afraid of our internal world and our internal selves. And it’s okay if you have feelings that you wish weren’t there. In fact, you are having a very human experience. That is what it means to be a human being, rather than a sign that you’re defective or wrong or have something to be ashamed of.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you want readers to feel at the end of your book that they can say, I am worthy? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>I am worthy, that sounds like you’re still evaluating yourself. The point of this book is not to say I am worthy; it is to say, I am.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much, Marisa. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>My pleasure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Marisa Franco’s new book is \u003cem>Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Brian Douglas. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Anyone who’s tried to improve their self-esteem can vouch that it’s extremely difficult. And the reason why is because researchers call self-esteem a theory of self. And if it’s low, you think that other people will reject you and harm will come. If it’s high, you think that people will accept you and good things will happen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, what happens when something happens that’s counter to your theory? If people with low self-esteem get positive feedback from other people, their blood pressure rises. They actually get sicker months later. And so what’s happening is, if you have this theory of self, information that’s counter to that theory does not elevate the self.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It makes you feel like you’re in some chaotic, unpredictable world, and it’s only a matter of time until that harm comes again; you’re sort of waiting for the shoe to drop. So there’s anxiety. They like me now, but it’s only a matter of time. They’re gonna figure out who I really am. It’s almost better if my sense of self is verified, if I get negative feedback about my sense of self, because at least that’s familiar. And in some ways, familiarity regulates us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It makes you feel like you’re in some chaotic, unpredictable world, and it’s only a matter of time until that harm comes again; you’re sort of waiting for the shoe to drop. So there’s anxiety. They like me now, but it’s only a matter of time. They’re gonna figure out who I really am. It’s almost better if my sense of self is verified, if I get negative feedback about my sense of self, because at least that’s familiar. And in some ways, familiarity regulates us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>So if you think about treating your internal world as if it matters, treating every feeling as if that matters, often you’re gonna have feelings that are counter to your sense of identity. Maybe someone really masculine feels weak. And we might have this top-down approach where we try to suppress those parts of ourselves, push them away because they don’t match our identity. But really, I’m pushing for a version of security that’s about welcoming whoever you are and wherever you’re at. And in the present, I am always evolving as a person. I’m having new feelings, I’m having new experiences, I’m having new emotions. Having a sense of self-worth is about being open to all of those emotions because your regard for yourself does not depend on you being the self-made person, or being the most attractive person in the room. Your regard for yourself is there no matter what, even as your identity changes over time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If we have some really rigid ideas about ourselves, you talk about how psychedelics might be one way to kind of lose ourselves to find ourselves.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Yeah, exactly. There was someone I interviewed for the book named Esme, and she tried to make a friend in eighth grade, and it didn’t go well. She would call this friend every day, and eventually that friend was like, “Why are you calling me? We’re not friends.” Heartbreaking. That memory shaped Esme’s ability to make friends for many decades later. So I asked her, what would she have liked to say to her younger self at the time? And I could see her being so half-hearted. She was like, “I would like to tell myself, it’s just a blip. People are going to accept you, but I don’t really know.” What psychedelics do is they deactivate the seed of the self in the brain. You are now able to go back to a memory almost as if you’re a third party. It deactivates the amygdala as well. So that memory is far less threatening. Esme would potentially be able to go back to that memory and see, it’s so beautiful that you put yourself out there. Not every time will that go right. But that doesn’t mean that something’s fundamentally wrong with you — that is just part of the journey of connecting with people. And she might actually be able to internalize that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You say we should aim to be secure-ish. What exactly does secure-ish mean?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>I feel like what I see in the Zeitgeist around attachment is: if you shame yourself enough for your insecurities, they’ll go away, right? And fundamentally, I’ve seen so many people just like me trying to act or cosplay or perform security, even when they’re not feeling secure within. And what happens when I see myself as secure and I’m anxious in a relationship? Or I feel that mysterious urge to withdraw. Or I feel overwhelmed or overstimulated in the relationship. I’m not able to fully acknowledge my anxious or my avoidant reactions. Instead, I’m trying to be secure. That’s the narrative I’m going with, and I’m going to ignore those other parts of myself. But really, I am anxious. That’s okay. What does that part of me need?. Turning towards that part of you ultimately leads to a greater sense of security. I think we can achieve that more. To be human is to deal with insecurities, messy feelings, things you don’t want to feel, and all of that is okay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing from you is that when these feelings come up — whether it’s an anxious response, an avoidant response, or that negative critical voice in your head — we should actually be in conversation with that part of ourselves in a much kinder way. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Yeah, absolutely. Dr. Skyler Jackson said, “I wanted to know what small things are actually big for me.” And that, to me, had often been a place of shame — if I had a big reaction to something small. But with him, I heard this sort of openness, this curiosity about the self, this welcoming of my internal experience that very much matched the sort of things that I heard suggested by Carl Rogers, a famous psychologist, who was like: Let your aggressive impulses, your anti-social impulses — you have to be able to acknowledge them, because you can only change yourself when you deeply accept those parts of you. And I think a lot of us have the misconception — and this is fair — that if I acknowledge those feelings, it’s gonna make them worse, right? Labeling your feelings, tolerating what they feel like in your body, accepting them — those are the things that finally make our feelings calm down. So we don’t have to be afraid of our internal world and our internal selves. And it’s okay if you have feelings that you wish weren’t there. In fact, you are having a very human experience. That is what it means to be a human being, rather than a sign that you’re defective or wrong or have something to be ashamed of.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>I am worthy, that sounds like you’re still evaluating yourself. The point of this book is not to say I am worthy; it is to say, I am.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much, Marisa. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>My pleasure. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Marisa Franco’s new book is \u003cem>Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Brian Douglas. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Why can a compliment make us anxious? Why do we sometimes expect rejection even when a relationship is going well? Psychologist Marisa Franco says the negative stories we harbor about ourselves can be stubborn, leading us to look for evidence that confirms our deepest fears about who we are.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They like me now, but it’s only a matter of time. They’re gonna figure out who I really am,” Franco says, describing how low self-esteem can make acceptance itself feel threatening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk to Franco about her new book, “Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment,” and how we can question old beliefs about ourselves, respond differently to difficult emotions and build a more secure sense of self.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Learn more about Marisa Franco and her work \u003ca href=\"https://drmarisagfranco.com/about/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco,\u003c/strong> psychologist; author, \u003cem>Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment\u003c/em>.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you define worth?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>I define worth as treating your internal world as if it matters. Treating all of your feelings as if they’re worthy of your attention and your compassion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You argue that once we come to believe something about ourselves, “I’m not lovable, or people leave, or I don’t matter,” we actually start looking for evidence that that is true. How does that work? How are we shaping our reality by those beliefs?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Anyone who’s tried to improve their self-esteem can vouch that it’s extremely difficult. And the reason why is because researchers call self-esteem a theory of self. And if it’s low, you think that other people will reject you and harm will come. If it’s high, you think that people will accept you and good things will happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, what happens when something happens that’s counter to your theory? If people with low self-esteem get positive feedback from other people, their blood pressure rises. They actually get sicker months later. And so what’s happening is, if you have this theory of self, information that’s counter to that theory does not elevate the self.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It makes you feel like you’re in some chaotic, unpredictable world, and it’s only a matter of time until that harm comes again; you’re sort of waiting for the shoe to drop. So there’s anxiety. They like me now, but it’s only a matter of time. They’re gonna figure out who I really am. It’s almost better if my sense of self is verified, if I get negative feedback about my sense of self, because at least that’s familiar. And in some ways, familiarity regulates us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: How do fixed ideas about ourselves — ‘I’m autonomous, I’m independent, I’m a loner’ — get in the way? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>So if you think about treating your internal world as if it matters, treating every feeling as if that matters, often you’re gonna have feelings that are counter to your sense of identity. Maybe someone really masculine feels weak. And we might have this top-down approach where we try to suppress those parts of ourselves, push them away because they don’t match our identity. But really, I’m pushing for a version of security that’s about welcoming whoever you are and wherever you’re at. And in the present, I am always evolving as a person. I’m having new feelings, I’m having new experiences, I’m having new emotions. Having a sense of self-worth is about being open to all of those emotions because your regard for yourself does not depend on you being the self-made person, or being the most attractive person in the room. Your regard for yourself is there no matter what, even as your identity changes over time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If we have some really rigid ideas about ourselves, you talk about how psychedelics might be one way to kind of lose ourselves to find ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Yeah, exactly. There was someone I interviewed for the book named Esme, and she tried to make a friend in eighth grade, and it didn’t go well. She would call this friend every day, and eventually that friend was like, “Why are you calling me? We’re not friends.” Heartbreaking. That memory shaped Esme’s ability to make friends for many decades later. So I asked her, what would she have liked to say to her younger self at the time? And I could see her being so half-hearted. She was like, “I would like to tell myself, it’s just a blip. People are going to accept you, but I don’t really know.” What psychedelics do is they deactivate the seed of the self in the brain. You are now able to go back to a memory almost as if you’re a third party. It deactivates the amygdala as well. So that memory is far less threatening. Esme would potentially be able to go back to that memory and see, it’s so beautiful that you put yourself out there. Not every time will that go right. But that doesn’t mean that something’s fundamentally wrong with you — that is just part of the journey of connecting with people. And she might actually be able to internalize that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You say we should aim to be secure-ish. What exactly does secure-ish mean?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>I feel like what I see in the Zeitgeist around attachment is: if you shame yourself enough for your insecurities, they’ll go away, right? And fundamentally, I’ve seen so many people just like me trying to act or cosplay or perform security, even when they’re not feeling secure within. And what happens when I see myself as secure and I’m anxious in a relationship? Or I feel that mysterious urge to withdraw. Or I feel overwhelmed or overstimulated in the relationship. I’m not able to fully acknowledge my anxious or my avoidant reactions. Instead, I’m trying to be secure. That’s the narrative I’m going with, and I’m going to ignore those other parts of myself. But really, I am anxious. That’s okay. What does that part of me need?. Turning towards that part of you ultimately leads to a greater sense of security. I think we can achieve that more. To be human is to deal with insecurities, messy feelings, things you don’t want to feel, and all of that is okay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing from you is that when these feelings come up — whether it’s an anxious response, an avoidant response, or that negative critical voice in your head — we should actually be in conversation with that part of ourselves in a much kinder way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Yeah, absolutely. Dr. Skyler Jackson said, “I wanted to know what small things are actually big for me.” And that, to me, had often been a place of shame — if I had a big reaction to something small. But with him, I heard this sort of openness, this curiosity about the self, this welcoming of my internal experience that very much matched the sort of things that I heard suggested by Carl Rogers, a famous psychologist, who was like: Let your aggressive impulses, your anti-social impulses — you have to be able to acknowledge them, because you can only change yourself when you deeply accept those parts of you. And I think a lot of us have the misconception — and this is fair — that if I acknowledge those feelings, it’s gonna make them worse, right? Labeling your feelings, tolerating what they feel like in your body, accepting them — those are the things that finally make our feelings calm down. So we don’t have to be afraid of our internal world and our internal selves. And it’s okay if you have feelings that you wish weren’t there. In fact, you are having a very human experience. That is what it means to be a human being, rather than a sign that you’re defective or wrong or have something to be ashamed of.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you want readers to feel at the end of your book that they can say, I am worthy? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>I am worthy, that sounds like you’re still evaluating yourself. The point of this book is not to say I am worthy; it is to say, I am.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much, Marisa. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>My pleasure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Marisa Franco’s new book is \u003cem>Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Brian Douglas. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>If you’re struggling in a relationship, the last thing you probably want to do is fight more. It’s often easier to step around tricky conversations and chase some peace. But according to relationship coach Kim Polinder, avoiding conflict does not make a relationship safer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’m very suspicious of couples who do not fight,” Polinder says. “And if there’s no fighting, that tells me that someone is probably suppressing their feelings. Now, that sounds noble, but given enough time, that suppression will turn into resentment, and that will take a relationship down.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk to Polinder about how to get to the root of the conflicts that never seem to go away, how to recognize the neurobiology of a trigger and, once you’re in the thick of an argument, how to fight with grace.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Learn more about Kim Polinder and her work \u003ca href=\"https://kimpolinder.com/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder,\u003c/strong> relationship coach; author, \u003cem>Why We Fight: A Transformative Road Map to Healing Conflict in Any Relationship.\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You trace your own relationship to conflict all the way back to the very beginning of your life. You were abandoned as an infant in rural South Korea. How do you think that beginning shows up in the way that you love today or, potentially, the way you fight?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I’ve heard and read articles on how pivotal that first year is for a baby. I can only surmise that my classic abandonment wounds were rooted in being separated from my birth mother and then again being separated from my foster mother, which, based on the paperwork, I had grown quite attached to. So how I experience abandonment wounds as an adult is that I’m quick to perceive the potential of it at every turn. I like to call it a lens at how I looked at people, myself, love, relationships and attachment through. It kind of ran my life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Meaning that you would pull back in fear that you will be abandoned?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Yes. So any sort of tension, friction. “Oh, I hurt your feelings. That means that you may reject me at some point. I’ll just leave you before you leave me,” was a common outcome. Not really showing up authentically in a vulnerable way because that would be too scary. What if they hurt my feelings? It was a very arms-length way of relating to people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But I imagine the way we fight is also potentially shaped by the person across from you. I know for me, I’ve gotten very different feedback based on who I’m fighting with. I had one partner who told me that I had an anger management problem because I didn’t show enough emotion. I had another partner who told me that I go completely nuclear. I don’t think I go completely nuclear or that I repress, but probably the truth is somewhere in between those. So, the other person does play a role in terms of how the fight plays out as well, correct?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Yes. What we get in childhood and the family of origin is a seeding, a foundation. We get our values modeled for us — how to react, how to communicate, how to love and be loved. That sets us up for going into adulthood and having our philosophy of love and attachment either reinforced or opposed. So when you talk about how you got different feedback from different people, getting back to that lens, one person who’s perhaps hyper-vigilant might think, “Are they upset? Well, I saw you furrow your eyebrows, and your jaw is tense; why aren’t you expressing?” They may have grown up in an environment where they had to be hyper-vigilant and look out for potential danger. And the other person may have grown up in an environment where it was very calm and regulated on the outside, but then you being very expressive could have been very overwhelming for them because they weren’t used to it. So again, we all bring a lens to how we view other people and ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>So you’re saying these old roots are potentially going to play out in how we’re arguing over the dishes or our parenting style, or they’re going to come out in these fights that we have every day. But help me make the leap from these roots from when we were very young to the fights that we’re having on a daily basis with our partners. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love that you use the dishes as an example. It’s such a common fight. I had one couple in particular where he took a picture of how the dishwasher should be loaded according to his wife and pasted it on the fridge because it was such a repeated argument. Now, while I love the dedication to solutions, if we look at what her core wound was, it was, “You never listen to me. My feelings don’t matter. When I tell you it’s really important to me that the dishwasher gets loaded in this way and here’s the reasoning behind it and you just discard it and you do your own thing, I feel invisible.” That could be traced back to a childhood where she wasn’t given emotional attunement. If she was upset, no one tuned in. If she was expressive, she was criticized and stomped down. So that perception of, “This is how people treat me, this is people see me,” is being reinforced by her husband not paying attention to her and listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you know that? How can she know that her core wound is that no one’s listening to me? She may not have that awareness.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love pattern recognition. I spent over 20 years in IT engineering, and I love a very structured, systematic approach. It’s possible to look at our personal experiences and conflict with a systematic lens. So when she looks at her life, I would argue for anyone who’s having similar experiences of, “I feel like no one listens to me. I feel I’m always invisible. Everyone’s feelings always trump mine. People always take up the emotional air in the room, but there’s no room for me,” you can probably trace that back to different scenarios, not just your spouse, it could be a coworker, family member, best friend, group situations. But if you notice that there’s a similar pattern being played out, now you’ve got something to work with. OK, yes, my spouse is annoying when they don’t load the dishwasher properly, but there could be something in me. Now we’re getting into the lens. There could be a wound that was created many years ago that I’m not accounting for. That knowledge and awareness is half the battle. Once I can see that my abandonment wound is creating this distance, that I’m not inherently a distant and cold-hearted and unfeeling person like I was accused of in my 20s and 30s, and it’s actually me being protective, now I can have more compassion for myself. Now I can sit with myself for where I’m at. Now I can start to take a look at different behaviors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You hear couples all the time say, “We just need to learn how to communicate better.” You can, I assume, learn how to communicate better, but if you don’t know these core underlying roots, maybe nothing will change, even if your language gets better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>People generally exist at a very global level of, “We need better communication. I want to feel closer to you. I want to be a bigger priority to you.” It’s a good start, but it’s not helpful to a person as far as what that looks like. You can say I want better communication and to you that means when we’re fighting you don’t storm out, you don’t start telling me that, “Oh, here are your mother issues coming out again, ”you don’t tell me to go to therapy whenever we argue. I may say, better communication to me is let’s take a 15-minute break so I can figure out how I’m feeling, what I’m thinking, and then let’s come back together. So when you say better communication, it’s really important to ask yourself, what does that look like?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say that you’re getting into it. A fight is beginning to kick off. You know your core wounds, you’ve navigated that, and you’re understanding your inner psychology so you know what could come up. But you know you’re right, and you want to prove your point. What do you do then? How do I slow down enough? What is your advice to someone at the beginning of a fight? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>It’s important to recognize the neurobiology of a trigger, and to know that if you’re in the heat of the moment and you hear yourself yelling and you’re not normally a very expressive person, or you’re calling your partner names, or just going to the place where, if you’ve been with your partner long enough, everyone knows the place, the button to push that will send your partner from zero to 60 in two seconds. And when we feel cornered, we will push that button. Things happen in the heat of the moment where we show our messy true selves. But if we understand that in the heat of the moment, my prefrontal cortex has gone offline and I’m in fight-or-flight, or freeze or fawn. I can lower my expectations and go to basic de-escalation skills. “Hey, I think we’re getting a little heated. Maybe we should take a break. Hey, I think that we just went to a really ugly place. Let’s take five minutes.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there language that might land better when you’re taking that break? Because I imagine that some people would feel abandoned. What is the right language to say? And then when you do take that break, what should you do in that five minutes? How should you try to re-regulate yourself?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Communication on the front end of the break is everything. I find that there is a dynamic that plays out in most couples. During high conflict, one person needs space to regulate because they feel flooded, they actually have difficulty talking, and they need that space to regulate. The other person needs engagement to feel safe, to feel connected, to feel OK. Taking space, to that person who needs more engagement, they’re going to be triggered into feelings of abandonment and rejection. What you can do on the front end is say, “I feel flooded; this is overwhelming. I just need 10 minutes, 15 minutes. I want to talk about this. I know this is important. I will come back to this.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What should you do during that time so you come back in a different place?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is good old somatic exercises like box breathing, which is slow breaths in, hold it, slow breaths out, hold it, doing that repeatedly. It is bilateral stimulation, like walking, rubbing your arms in a soothing manner. It could be grounding techniques, splashing cold water on your face, shaking the body to shake some of that energy out. It could be progressive muscle relaxation techniques where you tense one area of the body, relax it, tense another area of body, relax it. All of these somatic exercises, the reason people give up on them is they think, OK, I tried this breathing thing, and I was still pissed off. It just didn’t help. The exercises are not meant to make you feel peaceful and zen. It’s to address what’s happening viscerally in the body and to help your nervous system regulate just a bit, just to take the edge off. There are also counting exercises you can do. I want to count all the brown things in the room. I want to count things I can see. I want to count things I hear.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say you’ve gone around the block, you’ve rubbed your arms, you’re feeling more relaxed, you’ve taken a deep breath. How should you then, as you say, fight clean once you come back into the room?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is where the flow chart can come in handy. The first step is to ask, “Is now a good time?” A lot of times, people will unload on their partner when the feeling is the strongest, and that may not be such a great time. They could have just come out of a big work meeting or work day. They may have just put the kids to sleep and are just tired and wasted. If it’s not a good time, say, “OK, I can respect that. What would be a good time? I think we really do need to still talk about it.” “OK, how about in three hours? How about tomorrow morning? We generally do better in the mornings.” Then once you establish the good time to talk, it’s coming in with a controlled opening. I love the Gottmans’ research, John and Julie Gottman. They are big in the couple’s space. A lot of their research still holds true today where in the first three minutes of a conversation, how you open it, how you come in and address the topic, over 60% of the time, it will determine whether you have a chance at a positive outcome or not.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say both parties are feeling heard, OK, I’ve got you, you’ve got me, we’re getting each other here. What does a good solution look like? What separates a meaningful agreement or solution from, “OK, fine, I’ll just try harder next time.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>When it comes to solutions, you have to know what you need. I can’t tell you how many times I will ask a person, “What do you need in this situation? Put it up on a silver platter. What do you want? What do you need?” Often, people will look at me and say, “I don’t know, actually. I just know I’m upset.” And so, being able to put the ball back in that person’s court and ask yourself if there’s anything they could say or do that would help. What is proof that you feel understood? What would be proof that you’re a priority? Start working around that. I like putting proof on the person who’s bringing up the complaint. What would be proof that it’s happening? We’re getting into accountability and identifying needs, which is very important.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing as a thread through all of this, the ultimate goal doesn’t seem to be to stop fighting, but to slow down as we’re moving through the fight, to be able to identify this core wound, to able to stop and take stock and maybe take a walk to come back in to hear the other person’s perspective and to slow down the escalation. At the end of the day, if you’re able to do all that slowing down, will you fight less? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I hope not. I’m very suspicious of couples who do not fight. When you have two people who, just by just proximity alone, you’re around a person so much, what are the chances you’re not going to have a bad day or have a different opinion or that they’re going to poke at some wound from long ago? Just by the amount of time you spend with someone, they are going to upset you. And if there’s no fighting, that tells me that someone is probably suppressing their feelings. Now that sounds noble, but given enough time, that suppression will turn into resentment, and that will take a relationship down. Learning to express needs and learning to protest when I lived a life of just being submissive and pleasing people and not taking up any air in the room, it’s still to this day very uncomfortable for me to express needs and be needy and fight for what I need and be an advocate for myself. But I push through it because I know that it will lead to a better place. That’s the only way that I can get closer to other people is to show them the actual real me and what I’m needing and what upsets me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But there are, I imagine, some conflicts that are unresolvable. How do you know when a conflict is unresolvable?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Generally, when we’re talking about unresolvable conflicts, we’re talking about a difference in values, things that are important. Things like, are we having kids or not? Things like you belittle me, you call me names. This is actually emotionally or verbally abusive. Values of how you spend your time. These are lifestyle changes. So when it comes to incompatibility, have you brought up the concern? Have you brought the issue? If they don’t agree that that’s an issue, they will do nothing to change it. So these are the kind of questions that people have unresolved fight after unresolved fight. You might have to break up. There’s no shame in acknowledging that we are not a good match at a values level.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If there’s one thing you want to leave listeners with to do tomorrow in the relationship to make fighting or conflict easier, what is it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>There’s a deep value in getting triggered. It holds so much information about the times that you get the most upset. Instead of spending so much time trying not to get upset and telling yourself, “Why am I such an angry person? Why am I an anxious person?” Instead, focus more on getting curious. Why did I get so triggered? Why did I have such a disproportionate response to that situation? This is confusing to me. It’s an opportunity to really go deep on what still is driving that lens. The biggest thing that I can leave with people is: what kind of person do you want to be? If you want to shift out of a certain behavior or a certain way that you’re showing up in the world, get curious first versus judgmental. There’s a lot of information into why you get upset. I would argue that there’s probably a really good reason why you get so upset. There are really good reasons why you have that specific need. If you can come with more compassionate curiosity to that issue, it will create a better environment for you to then shift into something different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Stay curious, folks. Thank you so much, Kim. Kim, that was a really lovely conversation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Kim Polinder is a relationship coach and author of \u003cem>Why We Fight: A Transformative Road Map to Healing Conflict in Any Relationship.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. Our engineer is Christopher Beale. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Yes. So any sort of tension, friction. “Oh, I hurt your feelings. That means that you may reject me at some point. I’ll just leave you before you leave me,” was a common outcome. Not really showing up authentically in a vulnerable way because that would be too scary. What if they hurt my feelings? It was a very arms-length way of relating to people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But I imagine the way we fight is also potentially shaped by the person across from you. I know for me, I’ve gotten very different feedback based on who I’m fighting with. I had one partner who told me that I had an anger management problem because I didn’t show enough emotion. I had another partner who told me that I go completely nuclear. I don’t think I go completely nuclear or that I repress, but probably the truth is somewhere in between those. So, the other person does play a role in terms of how the fight plays out as well, correct?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But I imagine the way we fight is also potentially shaped by the person across from you. I know for me, I’ve gotten very different feedback based on who I’m fighting with. I had one partner who told me that I had an anger management problem because I didn’t show enough emotion. I had another partner who told me that I go completely nuclear. I don’t think I go completely nuclear or that I repress, but probably the truth is somewhere in between those. So, the other person does play a role in terms of how the fight plays out as well, correct?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Yes. What we get in childhood and the family of origin is a seeding, a foundation. We get our values modeled for us — how to react, how to communicate, how to love and be loved. That sets us up for going into adulthood and having our philosophy of love and attachment either reinforced or opposed. So when you talk about how you got different feedback from different people, getting back to that lens, one person who’s perhaps hyper-vigilant might think, “Are they upset? Well, I saw you furrow your eyebrows, and your jaw is tense; why aren’t you expressing?” They may have grown up in an environment where they had to be hyper-vigilant and look out for potential danger. And the other person may have grown up in an environment where it was very calm and regulated on the outside, but then you being very expressive could have been very overwhelming for them because they weren’t used to it. So again, we all bring a lens to how we view other people and ourselves.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Yes. What we get in childhood and the family of origin is a seeding, a foundation. We get our values modeled for us — how to react, how to communicate, how to love and be loved. That sets us up for going into adulthood and having our philosophy of love and attachment either reinforced or opposed. So when you talk about how you got different feedback from different people, getting back to that lens, one person who’s perhaps hyper-vigilant might think, “Are they upset? Well, I saw you furrow your eyebrows, and your jaw is tense; why aren’t you expressing?” They may have grown up in an environment where they had to be hyper-vigilant and look out for potential danger. And the other person may have grown up in an environment where it was very calm and regulated on the outside, but then you being very expressive could have been very overwhelming for them because they weren’t used to it. So again, we all bring a lens to how we view other people and ourselves.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>So you’re saying these old roots are potentially going to play out in how we’re arguing over the dishes or our parenting style, or they’re going to come out in these fights that we have every day. But help me make the leap from these roots from when we were very young to the fights that we’re having on a daily basis with our partners. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>So you’re saying these old roots are potentially going to play out in how we’re arguing over the dishes or our parenting style, or they’re going to come out in these fights that we have every day. But help me make the leap from these roots from when we were very young to the fights that we’re having on a daily basis with our partners. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love that you use the dishes as an example. It’s such a common fight. I had one couple in particular where he took a picture of how the dishwasher should be loaded according to his wife and pasted it on the fridge because it was such a repeated argument. Now, while I love the dedication to solutions, if we look at what her core wound was, it was, “You never listen to me. My feelings don’t matter. When I tell you it’s really important to me that the dishwasher gets loaded in this way and here’s the reasoning behind it and you just discard it and you do your own thing, I feel invisible.” That could be traced back to a childhood where she wasn’t given emotional attunement. If she was upset, no one tuned in. If she was expressive, she was criticized and stomped down. So that perception of, “This is how people treat me, this is people see me,” is being reinforced by her husband not paying attention to her and listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love that you use the dishes as an example. It’s such a common fight. I had one couple in particular where he took a picture of how the dishwasher should be loaded according to his wife and pasted it on the fridge because it was such a repeated argument. Now, while I love the dedication to solutions, if we look at what her core wound was, it was, “You never listen to me. My feelings don’t matter. When I tell you it’s really important to me that the dishwasher gets loaded in this way and here’s the reasoning behind it and you just discard it and you do your own thing, I feel invisible.” That could be traced back to a childhood where she wasn’t given emotional attunement. If she was upset, no one tuned in. If she was expressive, she was criticized and stomped down. So that perception of, “This is how people treat me, this is people see me,” is being reinforced by her husband not paying attention to her and listening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you know that? How can she know that her core wound is that no one’s listening to me? She may not have that awareness.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you know that? How can she know that her core wound is that no one’s listening to me? She may not have that awareness.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love pattern recognition. I spent over 20 years in IT engineering, and I love a very structured, systematic approach. It’s possible to look at our personal experiences and conflict with a systematic lens. So when she looks at her life, I would argue for anyone who’s having similar experiences of, “I feel like no one listens to me. I feel I’m always invisible. Everyone’s feelings always trump mine. People always take up the emotional air in the room, but there’s no room for me,” you can probably trace that back to different scenarios, not just your spouse, it could be a coworker, family member, best friend, group situations. But if you notice that there’s a similar pattern being played out, now you’ve got something to work with. OK, yes, my spouse is annoying when they don’t load the dishwasher properly, but there could be something in me. Now we’re getting into the lens. There could be a wound that was created many years ago that I’m not accounting for. That knowledge and awareness is half the battle. Once I can see that my abandonment wound is creating this distance, that I’m not inherently a distant and cold-hearted and unfeeling person like I was accused of in my 20s and 30s, and it’s actually me being protective, now I can have more compassion for myself. Now I can sit with myself for where I’m at. Now I can start to take a look at different behaviors.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love pattern recognition. I spent over 20 years in IT engineering, and I love a very structured, systematic approach. It’s possible to look at our personal experiences and conflict with a systematic lens. So when she looks at her life, I would argue for anyone who’s having similar experiences of, “I feel like no one listens to me. I feel I’m always invisible. Everyone’s feelings always trump mine. People always take up the emotional air in the room, but there’s no room for me,” you can probably trace that back to different scenarios, not just your spouse, it could be a coworker, family member, best friend, group situations. But if you notice that there’s a similar pattern being played out, now you’ve got something to work with. OK, yes, my spouse is annoying when they don’t load the dishwasher properly, but there could be something in me. Now we’re getting into the lens. There could be a wound that was created many years ago that I’m not accounting for. That knowledge and awareness is half the battle. Once I can see that my abandonment wound is creating this distance, that I’m not inherently a distant and cold-hearted and unfeeling person like I was accused of in my 20s and 30s, and it’s actually me being protective, now I can have more compassion for myself. Now I can sit with myself for where I’m at. Now I can start to take a look at different behaviors.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You hear couples all the time say, “We just need to learn how to communicate better.” You can, I assume, learn how to communicate better, but if you don’t know these core underlying roots, maybe nothing will change, even if your language gets better.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>People generally exist at a very global level of, “We need better communication. I want to feel closer to you. I want to be a bigger priority to you.” It’s a good start, but it’s not helpful to a person as far as what that looks like. You can say I want better communication and to you that means when we’re fighting you don’t storm out, you don’t start telling me that, “Oh, here are your mother issues coming out again, ”you don’t tell me to go to therapy whenever we argue. I may say, better communication to me is let’s take a 15-minute break so I can figure out how I’m feeling, what I’m thinking, and then let’s come back together. So when you say better communication, it’s really important to ask yourself, what does that look like?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>People generally exist at a very global level of, “We need better communication. I want to feel closer to you. I want to be a bigger priority to you.” It’s a good start, but it’s not helpful to a person as far as what that looks like. You can say I want better communication and to you that means when we’re fighting you don’t storm out, you don’t start telling me that, “Oh, here are your mother issues coming out again, ”you don’t tell me to go to therapy whenever we argue. I may say, better communication to me is let’s take a 15-minute break so I can figure out how I’m feeling, what I’m thinking, and then let’s come back together. So when you say better communication, it’s really important to ask yourself, what does that look like?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say that you’re getting into it. A fight is beginning to kick off. You know your core wounds, you’ve navigated that, and you’re understanding your inner psychology so you know what could come up. But you know you’re right, and you want to prove your point. What do you do then? How do I slow down enough? What is your advice to someone at the beginning of a fight? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say that you’re getting into it. A fight is beginning to kick off. You know your core wounds, you’ve navigated that, and you’re understanding your inner psychology so you know what could come up. But you know you’re right, and you want to prove your point. What do you do then? How do I slow down enough? What is your advice to someone at the beginning of a fight? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>It’s important to recognize the neurobiology of a trigger, and to know that if you’re in the heat of the moment and you hear yourself yelling and you’re not normally a very expressive person, or you’re calling your partner names, or just going to the place where, if you’ve been with your partner long enough, everyone knows the place, the button to push that will send your partner from zero to 60 in two seconds. And when we feel cornered, we will push that button. Things happen in the heat of the moment where we show our messy true selves. But if we understand that in the heat of the moment, my prefrontal cortex has gone offline and I’m in fight-or-flight, or freeze or fawn. I can lower my expectations and go to basic de-escalation skills. “Hey, I think we’re getting a little heated. Maybe we should take a break. Hey, I think that we just went to a really ugly place. Let’s take five minutes.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>It’s important to recognize the neurobiology of a trigger, and to know that if you’re in the heat of the moment and you hear yourself yelling and you’re not normally a very expressive person, or you’re calling your partner names, or just going to the place where, if you’ve been with your partner long enough, everyone knows the place, the button to push that will send your partner from zero to 60 in two seconds. And when we feel cornered, we will push that button. Things happen in the heat of the moment where we show our messy true selves. But if we understand that in the heat of the moment, my prefrontal cortex has gone offline and I’m in fight-or-flight, or freeze or fawn. I can lower my expectations and go to basic de-escalation skills. “Hey, I think we’re getting a little heated. Maybe we should take a break. Hey, I think that we just went to a really ugly place. Let’s take five minutes.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there language that might land better when you’re taking that break? Because I imagine that some people would feel abandoned. What is the right language to say? And then when you do take that break, what should you do in that five minutes? How should you try to re-regulate yourself?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there language that might land better when you’re taking that break? Because I imagine that some people would feel abandoned. What is the right language to say? And then when you do take that break, what should you do in that five minutes? How should you try to re-regulate yourself?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Communication on the front end of the break is everything. I find that there is a dynamic that plays out in most couples. During high conflict, one person needs space to regulate because they feel flooded, they actually have difficulty talking, and they need that space to regulate. The other person needs engagement to feel safe, to feel connected, to feel OK. Taking space, to that person who needs more engagement, they’re going to be triggered into feelings of abandonment and rejection. What you can do on the front end is say, “I feel flooded; this is overwhelming. I just need 10 minutes, 15 minutes. I want to talk about this. I know this is important. I will come back to this.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Communication on the front end of the break is everything. I find that there is a dynamic that plays out in most couples. During high conflict, one person needs space to regulate because they feel flooded, they actually have difficulty talking, and they need that space to regulate. The other person needs engagement to feel safe, to feel connected, to feel OK. Taking space, to that person who needs more engagement, they’re going to be triggered into feelings of abandonment and rejection. What you can do on the front end is say, “I feel flooded; this is overwhelming. I just need 10 minutes, 15 minutes. I want to talk about this. I know this is important. I will come back to this.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What should you do during that time so you come back in a different place?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What should you do during that time so you come back in a different place?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is good old somatic exercises like box breathing, which is slow breaths in, hold it, slow breaths out, hold it, doing that repeatedly. It is bilateral stimulation, like walking, rubbing your arms in a soothing manner. It could be grounding techniques, splashing cold water on your face, shaking the body to shake some of that energy out. It could be progressive muscle relaxation techniques where you tense one area of the body, relax it, tense another area of body, relax it. All of these somatic exercises, the reason people give up on them is they think, OK, I tried this breathing thing, and I was still pissed off. It just didn’t help. The exercises are not meant to make you feel peaceful and zen. It’s to address what’s happening viscerally in the body and to help your nervous system regulate just a bit, just to take the edge off. There are also counting exercises you can do. I want to count all the brown things in the room. I want to count things I can see. I want to count things I hear.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is good old somatic exercises like box breathing, which is slow breaths in, hold it, slow breaths out, hold it, doing that repeatedly. It is bilateral stimulation, like walking, rubbing your arms in a soothing manner. It could be grounding techniques, splashing cold water on your face, shaking the body to shake some of that energy out. It could be progressive muscle relaxation techniques where you tense one area of the body, relax it, tense another area of body, relax it. All of these somatic exercises, the reason people give up on them is they think, OK, I tried this breathing thing, and I was still pissed off. It just didn’t help. The exercises are not meant to make you feel peaceful and zen. It’s to address what’s happening viscerally in the body and to help your nervous system regulate just a bit, just to take the edge off. There are also counting exercises you can do. I want to count all the brown things in the room. I want to count things I can see. I want to count things I hear.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say you’ve gone around the block, you’ve rubbed your arms, you’re feeling more relaxed, you’ve taken a deep breath. How should you then, as you say, fight clean once you come back into the room?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is where the flow chart can come in handy. The first step is to ask, “Is now a good time?” A lot of times, people will unload on their partner when the feeling is the strongest, and that may not be such a great time. They could have just come out of a big work meeting or work day. They may have just put the kids to sleep and are just tired and wasted. If it’s not a good time, say, “OK, I can respect that. What would be a good time? I think we really do need to still talk about it.” “OK, how about in three hours? How about tomorrow morning? We generally do better in the mornings.” Then once you establish the good time to talk, it’s coming in with a controlled opening. I love the Gottmans’ research, John and Julie Gottman. They are big in the couple’s space. A lot of their research still holds true today where in the first three minutes of a conversation, how you open it, how you come in and address the topic, over 60% of the time, it will determine whether you have a chance at a positive outcome or not.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is where the flow chart can come in handy. The first step is to ask, “Is now a good time?” A lot of times, people will unload on their partner when the feeling is the strongest, and that may not be such a great time. They could have just come out of a big work meeting or work day. They may have just put the kids to sleep and are just tired and wasted. If it’s not a good time, say, “OK, I can respect that. What would be a good time? I think we really do need to still talk about it.” “OK, how about in three hours? How about tomorrow morning? We generally do better in the mornings.” Then once you establish the good time to talk, it’s coming in with a controlled opening. I love the Gottmans’ research, John and Julie Gottman. They are big in the couple’s space. A lot of their research still holds true today where in the first three minutes of a conversation, how you open it, how you come in and address the topic, over 60% of the time, it will determine whether you have a chance at a positive outcome or not.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say both parties are feeling heard, OK, I’ve got you, you’ve got me, we’re getting each other here. What does a good solution look like? What separates a meaningful agreement or solution from, “OK, fine, I’ll just try harder next time.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>When it comes to solutions, you have to know what you need. I can’t tell you how many times I will ask a person, “What do you need in this situation? Put it up on a silver platter. What do you want? What do you need?” Often, people will look at me and say, “I don’t know, actually. I just know I’m upset.” And so, being able to put the ball back in that person’s court and ask yourself if there’s anything they could say or do that would help. What is proof that you feel understood? What would be proof that you’re a priority? Start working around that. I like putting proof on the person who’s bringing up the complaint. What would be proof that it’s happening? We’re getting into accountability and identifying needs, which is very important.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>When it comes to solutions, you have to know what you need. I can’t tell you how many times I will ask a person, “What do you need in this situation? Put it up on a silver platter. What do you want? What do you need?” Often, people will look at me and say, “I don’t know, actually. I just know I’m upset.” And so, being able to put the ball back in that person’s court and ask yourself if there’s anything they could say or do that would help. What is proof that you feel understood? What would be proof that you’re a priority? Start working around that. I like putting proof on the person who’s bringing up the complaint. What would be proof that it’s happening? We’re getting into accountability and identifying needs, which is very important.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing as a thread through all of this, the ultimate goal doesn’t seem to be to stop fighting, but to slow down as we’re moving through the fight, to be able to identify this core wound, to able to stop and take stock and maybe take a walk to come back in to hear the other person’s perspective and to slow down the escalation. At the end of the day, if you’re able to do all that slowing down, will you fight less? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing as a thread through all of this, the ultimate goal doesn’t seem to be to stop fighting, but to slow down as we’re moving through the fight, to be able to identify this core wound, to able to stop and take stock and maybe take a walk to come back in to hear the other person’s perspective and to slow down the escalation. At the end of the day, if you’re able to do all that slowing down, will you fight less? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I hope not. I’m very suspicious of couples who do not fight. When you have two people who, just by just proximity alone, you’re around a person so much, what are the chances you’re not going to have a bad day or have a different opinion or that they’re going to poke at some wound from long ago? Just by the amount of time you spend with someone, they are going to upset you. And if there’s no fighting, that tells me that someone is probably suppressing their feelings. Now that sounds noble, but given enough time, that suppression will turn into resentment, and that will take a relationship down. Learning to express needs and learning to protest when I lived a life of just being submissive and pleasing people and not taking up any air in the room, it’s still to this day very uncomfortable for me to express needs and be needy and fight for what I need and be an advocate for myself. But I push through it because I know that it will lead to a better place. That’s the only way that I can get closer to other people is to show them the actual real me and what I’m needing and what upsets me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I hope not. I’m very suspicious of couples who do not fight. When you have two people who, just by just proximity alone, you’re around a person so much, what are the chances you’re not going to have a bad day or have a different opinion or that they’re going to poke at some wound from long ago? Just by the amount of time you spend with someone, they are going to upset you. And if there’s no fighting, that tells me that someone is probably suppressing their feelings. Now that sounds noble, but given enough time, that suppression will turn into resentment, and that will take a relationship down. Learning to express needs and learning to protest when I lived a life of just being submissive and pleasing people and not taking up any air in the room, it’s still to this day very uncomfortable for me to express needs and be needy and fight for what I need and be an advocate for myself. But I push through it because I know that it will lead to a better place. That’s the only way that I can get closer to other people is to show them the actual real me and what I’m needing and what upsets me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But there are, I imagine, some conflicts that are unresolvable. How do you know when a conflict is unresolvable?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Generally, when we’re talking about unresolvable conflicts, we’re talking about a difference in values, things that are important. Things like, are we having kids or not? Things like you belittle me, you call me names. This is actually emotionally or verbally abusive. Values of how you spend your time. These are lifestyle changes. So when it comes to incompatibility, have you brought up the concern? Have you brought the issue? If they don’t agree that that’s an issue, they will do nothing to change it. So these are the kind of questions that people have unresolved fight after unresolved fight. You might have to break up. There’s no shame in acknowledging that we are not a good match at a values level.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Generally, when we’re talking about unresolvable conflicts, we’re talking about a difference in values, things that are important. Things like, are we having kids or not? Things like you belittle me, you call me names. This is actually emotionally or verbally abusive. Values of how you spend your time. These are lifestyle changes. So when it comes to incompatibility, have you brought up the concern? Have you brought the issue? If they don’t agree that that’s an issue, they will do nothing to change it. So these are the kind of questions that people have unresolved fight after unresolved fight. You might have to break up. There’s no shame in acknowledging that we are not a good match at a values level.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If there’s one thing you want to leave listeners with to do tomorrow in the relationship to make fighting or conflict easier, what is it? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>There’s a deep value in getting triggered. It holds so much information about the times that you get the most upset. Instead of spending so much time trying not to get upset and telling yourself, “Why am I such an angry person? Why am I an anxious person?” Instead, focus more on getting curious. Why did I get so triggered? Why did I have such a disproportionate response to that situation? This is confusing to me. It’s an opportunity to really go deep on what still is driving that lens. The biggest thing that I can leave with people is: what kind of person do you want to be? If you want to shift out of a certain behavior or a certain way that you’re showing up in the world, get curious first versus judgmental. There’s a lot of information into why you get upset. I would argue that there’s probably a really good reason why you get so upset. There are really good reasons why you have that specific need. If you can come with more compassionate curiosity to that issue, it will create a better environment for you to then shift into something different.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>There’s a deep value in getting triggered. It holds so much information about the times that you get the most upset. Instead of spending so much time trying not to get upset and telling yourself, “Why am I such an angry person? Why am I an anxious person?” Instead, focus more on getting curious. Why did I get so triggered? Why did I have such a disproportionate response to that situation? This is confusing to me. It’s an opportunity to really go deep on what still is driving that lens. The biggest thing that I can leave with people is: what kind of person do you want to be? If you want to shift out of a certain behavior or a certain way that you’re showing up in the world, get curious first versus judgmental. There’s a lot of information into why you get upset. I would argue that there’s probably a really good reason why you get so upset. There are really good reasons why you have that specific need. If you can come with more compassionate curiosity to that issue, it will create a better environment for you to then shift into something different.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Stay curious, folks. Thank you so much, Kim. Kim, that was a really lovely conversation. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Stay curious, folks. Thank you so much, Kim. Kim, that was a really lovely conversation. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Kim Polinder is a relationship coach and author of \u003cem>Why We Fight: A Transformative Road Map to Healing Conflict in Any Relationship.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. Our engineer is Christopher Beale. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you for listening. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Kim Polinder is a relationship coach and author of \u003cem>Why We Fight: A Transformative Road Map to Healing Conflict in Any Relationship.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. Our engineer is Christopher Beale. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you for listening. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Before you call that fight with your partner a red flag, listen to what the argument is telling you. Kim Polinder, author of the new book “Why We Fight,” said conflict can expose what matters — and even bring couples closer.\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>If you’re struggling in a relationship, the last thing you probably want to do is fight more. It’s often easier to step around tricky conversations and chase some peace. But according to relationship coach Kim Polinder, avoiding conflict does not make a relationship safer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’m very suspicious of couples who do not fight,” Polinder says. “And if there’s no fighting, that tells me that someone is probably suppressing their feelings. Now, that sounds noble, but given enough time, that suppression will turn into resentment, and that will take a relationship down.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk to Polinder about how to get to the root of the conflicts that never seem to go away, how to recognize the neurobiology of a trigger and, once you’re in the thick of an argument, how to fight with grace.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Learn more about Kim Polinder and her work \u003ca href=\"https://kimpolinder.com/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder,\u003c/strong> relationship coach; author, \u003cem>Why We Fight: A Transformative Road Map to Healing Conflict in Any Relationship.\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You trace your own relationship to conflict all the way back to the very beginning of your life. You were abandoned as an infant in rural South Korea. How do you think that beginning shows up in the way that you love today or, potentially, the way you fight?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I’ve heard and read articles on how pivotal that first year is for a baby. I can only surmise that my classic abandonment wounds were rooted in being separated from my birth mother and then again being separated from my foster mother, which, based on the paperwork, I had grown quite attached to. So how I experience abandonment wounds as an adult is that I’m quick to perceive the potential of it at every turn. I like to call it a lens at how I looked at people, myself, love, relationships and attachment through. It kind of ran my life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Meaning that you would pull back in fear that you will be abandoned?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Yes. So any sort of tension, friction. “Oh, I hurt your feelings. That means that you may reject me at some point. I’ll just leave you before you leave me,” was a common outcome. Not really showing up authentically in a vulnerable way because that would be too scary. What if they hurt my feelings? It was a very arms-length way of relating to people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But I imagine the way we fight is also potentially shaped by the person across from you. I know for me, I’ve gotten very different feedback based on who I’m fighting with. I had one partner who told me that I had an anger management problem because I didn’t show enough emotion. I had another partner who told me that I go completely nuclear. I don’t think I go completely nuclear or that I repress, but probably the truth is somewhere in between those. So, the other person does play a role in terms of how the fight plays out as well, correct?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Yes. What we get in childhood and the family of origin is a seeding, a foundation. We get our values modeled for us — how to react, how to communicate, how to love and be loved. That sets us up for going into adulthood and having our philosophy of love and attachment either reinforced or opposed. So when you talk about how you got different feedback from different people, getting back to that lens, one person who’s perhaps hyper-vigilant might think, “Are they upset? Well, I saw you furrow your eyebrows, and your jaw is tense; why aren’t you expressing?” They may have grown up in an environment where they had to be hyper-vigilant and look out for potential danger. And the other person may have grown up in an environment where it was very calm and regulated on the outside, but then you being very expressive could have been very overwhelming for them because they weren’t used to it. So again, we all bring a lens to how we view other people and ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>So you’re saying these old roots are potentially going to play out in how we’re arguing over the dishes or our parenting style, or they’re going to come out in these fights that we have every day. But help me make the leap from these roots from when we were very young to the fights that we’re having on a daily basis with our partners. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love that you use the dishes as an example. It’s such a common fight. I had one couple in particular where he took a picture of how the dishwasher should be loaded according to his wife and pasted it on the fridge because it was such a repeated argument. Now, while I love the dedication to solutions, if we look at what her core wound was, it was, “You never listen to me. My feelings don’t matter. When I tell you it’s really important to me that the dishwasher gets loaded in this way and here’s the reasoning behind it and you just discard it and you do your own thing, I feel invisible.” That could be traced back to a childhood where she wasn’t given emotional attunement. If she was upset, no one tuned in. If she was expressive, she was criticized and stomped down. So that perception of, “This is how people treat me, this is people see me,” is being reinforced by her husband not paying attention to her and listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you know that? How can she know that her core wound is that no one’s listening to me? She may not have that awareness.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love pattern recognition. I spent over 20 years in IT engineering, and I love a very structured, systematic approach. It’s possible to look at our personal experiences and conflict with a systematic lens. So when she looks at her life, I would argue for anyone who’s having similar experiences of, “I feel like no one listens to me. I feel I’m always invisible. Everyone’s feelings always trump mine. People always take up the emotional air in the room, but there’s no room for me,” you can probably trace that back to different scenarios, not just your spouse, it could be a coworker, family member, best friend, group situations. But if you notice that there’s a similar pattern being played out, now you’ve got something to work with. OK, yes, my spouse is annoying when they don’t load the dishwasher properly, but there could be something in me. Now we’re getting into the lens. There could be a wound that was created many years ago that I’m not accounting for. That knowledge and awareness is half the battle. Once I can see that my abandonment wound is creating this distance, that I’m not inherently a distant and cold-hearted and unfeeling person like I was accused of in my 20s and 30s, and it’s actually me being protective, now I can have more compassion for myself. Now I can sit with myself for where I’m at. Now I can start to take a look at different behaviors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You hear couples all the time say, “We just need to learn how to communicate better.” You can, I assume, learn how to communicate better, but if you don’t know these core underlying roots, maybe nothing will change, even if your language gets better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>People generally exist at a very global level of, “We need better communication. I want to feel closer to you. I want to be a bigger priority to you.” It’s a good start, but it’s not helpful to a person as far as what that looks like. You can say I want better communication and to you that means when we’re fighting you don’t storm out, you don’t start telling me that, “Oh, here are your mother issues coming out again, ”you don’t tell me to go to therapy whenever we argue. I may say, better communication to me is let’s take a 15-minute break so I can figure out how I’m feeling, what I’m thinking, and then let’s come back together. So when you say better communication, it’s really important to ask yourself, what does that look like?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say that you’re getting into it. A fight is beginning to kick off. You know your core wounds, you’ve navigated that, and you’re understanding your inner psychology so you know what could come up. But you know you’re right, and you want to prove your point. What do you do then? How do I slow down enough? What is your advice to someone at the beginning of a fight? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>It’s important to recognize the neurobiology of a trigger, and to know that if you’re in the heat of the moment and you hear yourself yelling and you’re not normally a very expressive person, or you’re calling your partner names, or just going to the place where, if you’ve been with your partner long enough, everyone knows the place, the button to push that will send your partner from zero to 60 in two seconds. And when we feel cornered, we will push that button. Things happen in the heat of the moment where we show our messy true selves. But if we understand that in the heat of the moment, my prefrontal cortex has gone offline and I’m in fight-or-flight, or freeze or fawn. I can lower my expectations and go to basic de-escalation skills. “Hey, I think we’re getting a little heated. Maybe we should take a break. Hey, I think that we just went to a really ugly place. Let’s take five minutes.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there language that might land better when you’re taking that break? Because I imagine that some people would feel abandoned. What is the right language to say? And then when you do take that break, what should you do in that five minutes? How should you try to re-regulate yourself?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Communication on the front end of the break is everything. I find that there is a dynamic that plays out in most couples. During high conflict, one person needs space to regulate because they feel flooded, they actually have difficulty talking, and they need that space to regulate. The other person needs engagement to feel safe, to feel connected, to feel OK. Taking space, to that person who needs more engagement, they’re going to be triggered into feelings of abandonment and rejection. What you can do on the front end is say, “I feel flooded; this is overwhelming. I just need 10 minutes, 15 minutes. I want to talk about this. I know this is important. I will come back to this.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What should you do during that time so you come back in a different place?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is good old somatic exercises like box breathing, which is slow breaths in, hold it, slow breaths out, hold it, doing that repeatedly. It is bilateral stimulation, like walking, rubbing your arms in a soothing manner. It could be grounding techniques, splashing cold water on your face, shaking the body to shake some of that energy out. It could be progressive muscle relaxation techniques where you tense one area of the body, relax it, tense another area of body, relax it. All of these somatic exercises, the reason people give up on them is they think, OK, I tried this breathing thing, and I was still pissed off. It just didn’t help. The exercises are not meant to make you feel peaceful and zen. It’s to address what’s happening viscerally in the body and to help your nervous system regulate just a bit, just to take the edge off. There are also counting exercises you can do. I want to count all the brown things in the room. I want to count things I can see. I want to count things I hear.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say you’ve gone around the block, you’ve rubbed your arms, you’re feeling more relaxed, you’ve taken a deep breath. How should you then, as you say, fight clean once you come back into the room?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is where the flow chart can come in handy. The first step is to ask, “Is now a good time?” A lot of times, people will unload on their partner when the feeling is the strongest, and that may not be such a great time. They could have just come out of a big work meeting or work day. They may have just put the kids to sleep and are just tired and wasted. If it’s not a good time, say, “OK, I can respect that. What would be a good time? I think we really do need to still talk about it.” “OK, how about in three hours? How about tomorrow morning? We generally do better in the mornings.” Then once you establish the good time to talk, it’s coming in with a controlled opening. I love the Gottmans’ research, John and Julie Gottman. They are big in the couple’s space. A lot of their research still holds true today where in the first three minutes of a conversation, how you open it, how you come in and address the topic, over 60% of the time, it will determine whether you have a chance at a positive outcome or not.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say both parties are feeling heard, OK, I’ve got you, you’ve got me, we’re getting each other here. What does a good solution look like? What separates a meaningful agreement or solution from, “OK, fine, I’ll just try harder next time.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>When it comes to solutions, you have to know what you need. I can’t tell you how many times I will ask a person, “What do you need in this situation? Put it up on a silver platter. What do you want? What do you need?” Often, people will look at me and say, “I don’t know, actually. I just know I’m upset.” And so, being able to put the ball back in that person’s court and ask yourself if there’s anything they could say or do that would help. What is proof that you feel understood? What would be proof that you’re a priority? Start working around that. I like putting proof on the person who’s bringing up the complaint. What would be proof that it’s happening? We’re getting into accountability and identifying needs, which is very important.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing as a thread through all of this, the ultimate goal doesn’t seem to be to stop fighting, but to slow down as we’re moving through the fight, to be able to identify this core wound, to able to stop and take stock and maybe take a walk to come back in to hear the other person’s perspective and to slow down the escalation. At the end of the day, if you’re able to do all that slowing down, will you fight less? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I hope not. I’m very suspicious of couples who do not fight. When you have two people who, just by just proximity alone, you’re around a person so much, what are the chances you’re not going to have a bad day or have a different opinion or that they’re going to poke at some wound from long ago? Just by the amount of time you spend with someone, they are going to upset you. And if there’s no fighting, that tells me that someone is probably suppressing their feelings. Now that sounds noble, but given enough time, that suppression will turn into resentment, and that will take a relationship down. Learning to express needs and learning to protest when I lived a life of just being submissive and pleasing people and not taking up any air in the room, it’s still to this day very uncomfortable for me to express needs and be needy and fight for what I need and be an advocate for myself. But I push through it because I know that it will lead to a better place. That’s the only way that I can get closer to other people is to show them the actual real me and what I’m needing and what upsets me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But there are, I imagine, some conflicts that are unresolvable. How do you know when a conflict is unresolvable?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Generally, when we’re talking about unresolvable conflicts, we’re talking about a difference in values, things that are important. Things like, are we having kids or not? Things like you belittle me, you call me names. This is actually emotionally or verbally abusive. Values of how you spend your time. These are lifestyle changes. So when it comes to incompatibility, have you brought up the concern? Have you brought the issue? If they don’t agree that that’s an issue, they will do nothing to change it. So these are the kind of questions that people have unresolved fight after unresolved fight. You might have to break up. There’s no shame in acknowledging that we are not a good match at a values level.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If there’s one thing you want to leave listeners with to do tomorrow in the relationship to make fighting or conflict easier, what is it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>There’s a deep value in getting triggered. It holds so much information about the times that you get the most upset. Instead of spending so much time trying not to get upset and telling yourself, “Why am I such an angry person? Why am I an anxious person?” Instead, focus more on getting curious. Why did I get so triggered? Why did I have such a disproportionate response to that situation? This is confusing to me. It’s an opportunity to really go deep on what still is driving that lens. The biggest thing that I can leave with people is: what kind of person do you want to be? If you want to shift out of a certain behavior or a certain way that you’re showing up in the world, get curious first versus judgmental. There’s a lot of information into why you get upset. I would argue that there’s probably a really good reason why you get so upset. There are really good reasons why you have that specific need. If you can come with more compassionate curiosity to that issue, it will create a better environment for you to then shift into something different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Stay curious, folks. Thank you so much, Kim. Kim, that was a really lovely conversation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Kim Polinder is a relationship coach and author of \u003cem>Why We Fight: A Transformative Road Map to Healing Conflict in Any Relationship.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. Our engineer is Christopher Beale. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "is-it-love-or-limerence-why-intense-chemistry-can-be-misleading",
"title": "Is It Love — or Limerence? Why Intense Chemistry Can Be Misleading",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The butterflies. The constant thoughts. The rush when the object of your affection texts – and the crash when they don’t. We often read that intensity as a sign we’re falling deeply in love. Neuroscientist Tom Bellamy says it may be something else: limerence, an obsessive form of romantic infatuation that feels and behaves like an addiction. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“You’re just completely captured by it,” he says. We talk to Bellamy about what happens in the brain when desire becomes fixation and why the people who give us the biggest romantic highs aren’t necessarily the best partners for us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Learn more about Tom Bellamy and his work on limerence \u003ca href=\"https://livingwithlimerence.com/about/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy,\u003c/strong> neuroscientist; author, “Smitten: Romantic Obsession, the Neuroscience of Limerence, and How to Make Love Last”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>When you fall in love, it’s always intoxicating. But when that person is really all you can think about — you can’t concentrate, you’ve fallen into a black hole of attraction — that’s limerence, an intense, romantic craving, almost like an addiction. Tom, what would you add to that definition? How would you flesh that out?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I generally describe limerence as an altered mental state. It really feels like your brain is operating in a different mode. It feels like you have literally been transformed by the experience of becoming infatuated with another person. It’s a very intense infatuation. It goes beyond the happy vibes and the butterflies and the excitement of early love into a complete mental capture. It takes over your internal world. It’s largely about the intensity of the experience and the fact that it can become involuntary. It feels like you’re not able to regulate your own emotions and own mood to the same extent that you used to be able to. And it generally takes a bit of time for that to happen. So early on, limerence just feels wonderful, euphoric, exhilarating, intoxicating. Limerence is such a powerful natural high that it can become addictive. You can go into that state where it feels much more obsessive, and it feels like your mood is dependent on the behavior of the other person, the person that you’re infatuated with. You have these big swings of mood from exhilaration and excitement down to depression and anxiety if it seems like there might be barriers in the way of that love connection that you want so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And those highs and lows are based on the uncertainty of whether or not the incredible feeling is returned or the love could be returned, the infatuation is returned?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Uncertainty is a really big driver in limerence. If you get into that state of excitement and exhilaration in the early stage of love and the other person is romantically attracted to you as well, and a relationship starts, it will be wonderful. You’ll get all the fireworks, but it won’t necessarily progress into a state that feels much more addictive and much more obsessive, because you have secured what you hoped for. It’s not inevitable that limerence will progress into this slightly unregulated psychological state. But if there is uncertainty, that can be a major factor for driving it forward. That uncertainty could either come from your own indecision that you don’t feel confident about declaring yourself or you don’t feel confident starting a relationship and so you hesitate. Or it could be the other person provides the uncertainty that you’re not sure how they feel about you, maybe they give you mixed messages and sometimes they seem very interested but then other times they seem cold and you’re not quite sure what’s going on or where you are or how serious it is. Those sorts of things can push the feelings from that exhilaration and the euphoria into a fixation and a dependency where they become a source of obsession for you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And you’ve experienced this; what did it look like? What did it feel like? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>About half the population experiences limerence at some point in their life. For many of us, you just assume that this is what love feels like — the early phase of love just feels like this completely overwhelming, infatuated state where they seem wonderful and everything about them is perfect and you could never imagine that you could meet somebody that good, that wonderful, that exhilarating. There’s plenty of poetry and films and literature in the world that describe that agony of ecstasy, that strange mixture of exhilaration and anxiety. So I just assumed the first time that I experienced this state, well, that’s just love. That’s just what love feels like.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I really first confronted the idea of limerence and the reality of it being an altered mental state when I developed it despite being in a happy marriage. I developed limerence for somebody else outside of marriage. In my case, it was a coworker. I did not want to form a romantic relationship with her, and she wasn’t available to have a romantic relationship anyway. It was the first time in my life that I experienced that emotional overwhelm without wanting it to go anywhere, without it feeling like the beginning of something meaningful. I then had to confront the fact that despite being happily in love and in a stable relationship that was very positive, that I was infatuated with somebody else. Because I am a neuroscientist, I looked at it from the perspective of, well, what’s going on in the brain to cause this? I could recognize that the driving force and the underlying experience and the symptoms of limerence could be explained in the context of behavioral addiction, that a natural reward can be so powerful that it can become addictive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Give us a layman’s version of what is going on in the brain. What’s happening there in the addiction pathways?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Obviously, falling in love is a wonderful thing; it’s a very positive thing, it’s a very beneficial thing. So, it’s not a surprise that we have circuits within the brain that are tuned to recognizing desirable mates who we could potentially form a romantic pair bond with. And that thrill of excitement and exhilaration is hugely rewarding. It’s also hugely arousing so you get all the butterflies in the tummy and the racing hearts and all the symptoms of arousal. There’s an erotic component as well. So you’ve got all the sexual arousal elements too. And then there’s a third element to limerence within the brain, which is about oxytocin, which is the bonding hormone that helps us connect rewards to social cues.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp> So what happens in the initiation of limerence is you get a powerful reward, and you learn the connection to that reward, and so you seek the reward, and you get a very powerful motivation to want that person. Oxytocin and dopamine in the reward system working together can imprint that person as the primary source of reward in the world. They become what could be called a super normal stimulus. They become an extremely powerful source of rewards. That wanting drive driven by dopamine gets stronger and stronger, and your ability to self-regulate because of feedback from the executive parts of the brain, so the prefrontal cortex, gets weaker and weaker. You end up in a state where you feel that you’ve got a desire that’s just insatiable, and you can’t resist it, and you don’t even want to resist it. You’re just completely captured by it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unwittingly, you’ve trained your brain into fixating on one particular person, and you’ve weakened your willpower and your ability to self-regulate and think, “No, this isn’t good for me. This is destructive. This is disrupting my life. This is taking me away from the other things that I care about, and I can’t concentrate on other things.” You get all of those symptoms that are like an addiction. You have intrusive thoughts that are hard to control, and you feel like you’re helplessly caught in a mental trap.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How did you break out of that addictive state? Once you had this knowledge and you knew what was going on, how did you break it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Essentially, it’s trying to undo that training, try to reverse it. You have to try and reduce the reward that’s associated with the other person. You try to wake up your executive brain and get it to pay attention a little bit and break the habit loops and recognize, “Oh, that was a limerent instinct; I need to pay attention to this. I shouldn’t just follow it on autopilot as a habit.” The other thing, if you think of it in terms of an addiction, is you really need to break contact with the person that you’re infatuated with. You need to cut off the supply so that you’re not constantly reinforcing that attachment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And if you don’t do that, it seems like this could lead to some pretty bad antisocial behaviors, stalking, that kind of thing. Does it lead people to do things they wouldn’t normally do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Not really. Limerence is a runaway reward system. About half of us have it; about half of us experience it. It doesn’t predict for other antisocial behaviors. The people that stalk have other problems, other issues, often other psychiatric problems. The motivations for stalking are often a sense of entitlement to the attention of the other person, a desire to hurt the other person. Stalking is linked to ex-partners and that they feel, “I’ve been hurt so I should be allowed to hurt you.” The psychology and psychiatry behind stalking is quite distinct from limerence. I could imagine if somebody did have a predisposition to stalking behavior and they became limerent, then yes, their limerant objects, the person that they’re infatuated with, could become the target for the stalking. But I think if people are going through limerence but are otherwise psychologically healthy, there’s no reason to think that they would violate boundaries or do any of this almost criminal behavior.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It makes me think that maybe a lot of people who are in Love AA, that might be room full of people who are more inclined toward limerence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yes, because it’s so intoxicating and because it is addictive, you can see people who chase limerence, but when the limerence does begin to resolve, they immediately look for somebody new. They’re chasing that thrill of early love, and they are not wanting it to mature into a stable attachment-style bond. They just want the thrills. They want the tingles, the excitement, the fireworks. And so, yes, you can get a situation where people almost become addicted to limerence, that they’re chasing the limerent thrills again and again. And the healthy, happy love of a stable attachment isn’t what appeals to them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>As one who has had both, you’ve had the long-term marriage, you’ve had these limerent states, you’ve stayed with your wife, how would you sell it to someone who’s on that addictive high that it’s worth sticking around for the love bonding and the lower intoxicating state down the road in a relationship?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I’m an advocate for stable, healthy, long-term love. It’s very different in character from limerence. One simple way of separating it would be the difference between pleasure and happiness. Pleasure is excitement, thrills, momentary, and it passes. Happiness is a longer-term state of contentedness. Limerence doesn’t last. Even if you get reciprocation and you form a relationship, and you get all those thrills, it’s probably going to last maybe a couple of years, and then it will fade. You are going to get caught in this cycle of constantly chasing it. One of the very common mistakes that people who experience limerence make about love is that they think the strength of their limerence is a measure of how good the other person is as a partner. And it’s really not connected. What makes somebody compatible for you for a long-term relationship and what excites your limerent brain can be completely unrelated, and often they run against each other. You get the thrills and the excitement for one class of person, but unfortunately they are not a good prospect for a long-term mate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But that’s so confusing, right? Because if all the butterflies tell you that you must move towards them, how do you pay attention to compatibility when that’s going on?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>It’s really hard. If you do find yourself drawn towards people who are disordered in some way, or they’re unreliable, or they’re withholding, that would suggest they’re not going to be reliable for a long-term relationship, because they’re not going to reciprocate genuine care. So it can be hard. If you do recognize that the glimmer of limerent excitement is connected to people that tend to break your heart and that that’s a pattern that happens again and again in your life, unfortunately, it means that limerence is a warning sign for you. So rather than it being a sign of attraction, it’s a sign of potential danger.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>We were talking offline, and I mentioned that I’m not quite sure if I fall into limerent states. But now I realize I have a total pattern of dating narcissistic personality disorder folks. That high that they take you on, all that attention is so intoxicating, and then they pull it away, and I would fall on my face.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: I\u003c/strong>t’s important to recognize that some people are very powerful limerent objects. They behave in a way that will attract and trap lots of people. As I said at the outset, if they’re behaving in a way that’s very unpredictable, so, they start with the love bombing, and it feels wonderful and exciting and fun and fantastic, but then withdraw emotionally, you don’t rationally go, “Oh, it turns out they’re unreliable. All my feelings for them have gone away.” You get the panic of thinking, “Oh, this thing that I thought was wonderful is slipping away now.” And so it motivates you to try and bond harder, try and reconnect and get back that early phase that was so pleasant, that was pleasurable, enjoyable. People will vary in whether or not they experience limerence as a tendency, but there are also people out there — and narcissists would be a great example — that can generate limerence in others.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Does it always happen in the context of romantic love, or can you enter a limerent state even for a friend?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>This is kind of an open question. Dorothy Tenhoff, when she first coined the term, she meant it in a romantic context. But I have heard from lots of people over the years who say, “I recognize everything that you say about these symptoms, but I don’t feel romantic or sexual desire for this other person.” The commonest scenario that I’ve come across is a younger woman becoming limerent for an older female mentor, and they’ve not experienced same-sex attraction before in their life. It’s confusing because it feels platonic, but it also feels so addictive and compulsive and wanting and needy that it’s like a romantic connection. Also, I have heard from asexual people who say they experience limerence, but don’t feel any sexual desire. They want the closeness, they want intimacy, the emotional intimacy, and they do feel that same sense of special connection that’s extraordinary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If someone’s listening and they’re like, “Oh God, this is 100% resonating,” what is your advice? What’s the first thing that they should do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Try to understand, as a first step, what it is about the other person that you’re responding to. \u003cs>I\u003c/s>f you’ve had several romantic adventures or experiences in your life, look back over it and think, “Is there some sort of pattern here that can help me understand what it is that I’m responding to in this other person?” That can help put the whole experience into context. As you said, you recognize a pattern with narcissists being particularly attractive. For me, it’s damsels in distress as a stereotype and archetype. And so that can be very helpful. If you’re going through this, it doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you, it doesn’t mean you’ve got a mental illness, it doesn’t mean you need therapy or treatment. It is the way that many of us experience love in the early stages. To be able to have a healthy love relationship, understanding your own limerent sensitivities and vulnerabilities is gonna be a very important first step.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And I imagine, if you have this tendency, you might have to cut the connection cold turkey rather than feed it just a little. Do you recommend for those who are more inclined, and let’s say it’s clearly taking over their life, that the hard cut is what is necessary?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>No, actually. If you think of it like a drug addiction, as an analogy, generally going cold turkey, it can work for some people and it is the right strategy for some people, but it’s better usually to taper off and to reduce it. If you are really deep in limerence and it’s advanced to the stage where it does feel like you’re addicted to this other person, if you try and cut off cold turkey, you’ll get a lot of emotional resistance. It’s very likely to cause a relapse because the idea of being separated from them is so aversive; you feel like you’ve been deprived of the greatest reward in the world. It is actually better in that situation to step it down and to start trying to exercise your executive brain and say, okay, we’ll go from constantly looking at her Facebook page or constantly being on his Instagram or constantly texting her to reducing the amount of contact step by step. A lot of getting out of limerence is almost playing mental tricks on yourself. The limerent part of your brain is like a child. They don’t understand why constantly wanting sweets isn’t good for them, and they need to be parented.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Gentle parenting, shall we say? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and the negotiation with yourself, not tyrannizing yourself, “Why am I so weak? Why do I have no willpower?” If you try to suppress the intrusive thoughts, it backfires, it gets worse, because you’re still making it central, and you’re loading in negative associations with it. Thought suppression doesn’t work as a strategy. You do need to ride out the emotions more, and that becomes easier if you reduce in stages.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I so wish I could have had this conversation in my 20s before I went down all those painful relationships. Tom, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>You’re very welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Tom Bellamy is a neuroscientist and author of \u003cem>Smitten: Romantic Obsession, the Neuroscience of Limerence, and How to Make Love Last.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Learn more about Tom Bellamy and his work on limerence \u003ca href=\"https://livingwithlimerence.com/about/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy,\u003c/strong> neuroscientist; author, “Smitten: Romantic Obsession, the Neuroscience of Limerence, and How to Make Love Last”\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>When you fall in love, it’s always intoxicating. But when that person is really all you can think about — you can’t concentrate, you’ve fallen into a black hole of attraction — that’s limerence, an intense, romantic craving, almost like an addiction. Tom, what would you add to that definition? How would you flesh that out?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>When you fall in love, it’s always intoxicating. But when that person is really all you can think about — you can’t concentrate, you’ve fallen into a black hole of attraction — that’s limerence, an intense, romantic craving, almost like an addiction. Tom, what would you add to that definition? How would you flesh that out?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I generally describe limerence as an altered mental state. It really feels like your brain is operating in a different mode. It feels like you have literally been transformed by the experience of becoming infatuated with another person. It’s a very intense infatuation. It goes beyond the happy vibes and the butterflies and the excitement of early love into a complete mental capture. It takes over your internal world. It’s largely about the intensity of the experience and the fact that it can become involuntary. It feels like you’re not able to regulate your own emotions and own mood to the same extent that you used to be able to. And it generally takes a bit of time for that to happen. So early on, limerence just feels wonderful, euphoric, exhilarating, intoxicating. Limerence is such a powerful natural high that it can become addictive. You can go into that state where it feels much more obsessive, and it feels like your mood is dependent on the behavior of the other person, the person that you’re infatuated with. You have these big swings of mood from exhilaration and excitement down to depression and anxiety if it seems like there might be barriers in the way of that love connection that you want so much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I generally describe limerence as an altered mental state. It really feels like your brain is operating in a different mode. It feels like you have literally been transformed by the experience of becoming infatuated with another person. It’s a very intense infatuation. It goes beyond the happy vibes and the butterflies and the excitement of early love into a complete mental capture. It takes over your internal world. It’s largely about the intensity of the experience and the fact that it can become involuntary. It feels like you’re not able to regulate your own emotions and own mood to the same extent that you used to be able to. And it generally takes a bit of time for that to happen. So early on, limerence just feels wonderful, euphoric, exhilarating, intoxicating. Limerence is such a powerful natural high that it can become addictive. You can go into that state where it feels much more obsessive, and it feels like your mood is dependent on the behavior of the other person, the person that you’re infatuated with. You have these big swings of mood from exhilaration and excitement down to depression and anxiety if it seems like there might be barriers in the way of that love connection that you want so much.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And those highs and lows are based on the uncertainty of whether or not the incredible feeling is returned or the love could be returned, the infatuation is returned?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And those highs and lows are based on the uncertainty of whether or not the incredible feeling is returned or the love could be returned, the infatuation is returned?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Uncertainty is a really big driver in limerence. If you get into that state of excitement and exhilaration in the early stage of love and the other person is romantically attracted to you as well, and a relationship starts, it will be wonderful. You’ll get all the fireworks, but it won’t necessarily progress into a state that feels much more addictive and much more obsessive, because you have secured what you hoped for. It’s not inevitable that limerence will progress into this slightly unregulated psychological state. But if there is uncertainty, that can be a major factor for driving it forward. That uncertainty could either come from your own indecision that you don’t feel confident about declaring yourself or you don’t feel confident starting a relationship and so you hesitate. Or it could be the other person provides the uncertainty that you’re not sure how they feel about you, maybe they give you mixed messages and sometimes they seem very interested but then other times they seem cold and you’re not quite sure what’s going on or where you are or how serious it is. Those sorts of things can push the feelings from that exhilaration and the euphoria into a fixation and a dependency where they become a source of obsession for you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Uncertainty is a really big driver in limerence. If you get into that state of excitement and exhilaration in the early stage of love and the other person is romantically attracted to you as well, and a relationship starts, it will be wonderful. You’ll get all the fireworks, but it won’t necessarily progress into a state that feels much more addictive and much more obsessive, because you have secured what you hoped for. It’s not inevitable that limerence will progress into this slightly unregulated psychological state. But if there is uncertainty, that can be a major factor for driving it forward. That uncertainty could either come from your own indecision that you don’t feel confident about declaring yourself or you don’t feel confident starting a relationship and so you hesitate. Or it could be the other person provides the uncertainty that you’re not sure how they feel about you, maybe they give you mixed messages and sometimes they seem very interested but then other times they seem cold and you’re not quite sure what’s going on or where you are or how serious it is. Those sorts of things can push the feelings from that exhilaration and the euphoria into a fixation and a dependency where they become a source of obsession for you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And you’ve experienced this; what did it look like? What did it feel like? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>About half the population experiences limerence at some point in their life. For many of us, you just assume that this is what love feels like — the early phase of love just feels like this completely overwhelming, infatuated state where they seem wonderful and everything about them is perfect and you could never imagine that you could meet somebody that good, that wonderful, that exhilarating. There’s plenty of poetry and films and literature in the world that describe that agony of ecstasy, that strange mixture of exhilaration and anxiety. So I just assumed the first time that I experienced this state, well, that’s just love. That’s just what love feels like.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>About half the population experiences limerence at some point in their life. For many of us, you just assume that this is what love feels like — the early phase of love just feels like this completely overwhelming, infatuated state where they seem wonderful and everything about them is perfect and you could never imagine that you could meet somebody that good, that wonderful, that exhilarating. There’s plenty of poetry and films and literature in the world that describe that agony of ecstasy, that strange mixture of exhilaration and anxiety. So I just assumed the first time that I experienced this state, well, that’s just love. That’s just what love feels like.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I really first confronted the idea of limerence and the reality of it being an altered mental state when I developed it despite being in a happy marriage. I developed limerence for somebody else outside of marriage. In my case, it was a coworker. I did not want to form a romantic relationship with her, and she wasn’t available to have a romantic relationship anyway. It was the first time in my life that I experienced that emotional overwhelm without wanting it to go anywhere, without it feeling like the beginning of something meaningful. I then had to confront the fact that despite being happily in love and in a stable relationship that was very positive, that I was infatuated with somebody else. Because I am a neuroscientist, I looked at it from the perspective of, well, what’s going on in the brain to cause this? I could recognize that the driving force and the underlying experience and the symptoms of limerence could be explained in the context of behavioral addiction, that a natural reward can be so powerful that it can become addictive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I really first confronted the idea of limerence and the reality of it being an altered mental state when I developed it despite being in a happy marriage. I developed limerence for somebody else outside of marriage. In my case, it was a coworker. I did not want to form a romantic relationship with her, and she wasn’t available to have a romantic relationship anyway. It was the first time in my life that I experienced that emotional overwhelm without wanting it to go anywhere, without it feeling like the beginning of something meaningful. I then had to confront the fact that despite being happily in love and in a stable relationship that was very positive, that I was infatuated with somebody else. Because I am a neuroscientist, I looked at it from the perspective of, well, what’s going on in the brain to cause this? I could recognize that the driving force and the underlying experience and the symptoms of limerence could be explained in the context of behavioral addiction, that a natural reward can be so powerful that it can become addictive.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Give us a layman’s version of what is going on in the brain. What’s happening there in the addiction pathways?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Give us a layman’s version of what is going on in the brain. What’s happening there in the addiction pathways?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Obviously, falling in love is a wonderful thing; it’s a very positive thing, it’s a very beneficial thing. So, it’s not a surprise that we have circuits within the brain that are tuned to recognizing desirable mates who we could potentially form a romantic pair bond with. And that thrill of excitement and exhilaration is hugely rewarding. It’s also hugely arousing so you get all the butterflies in the tummy and the racing hearts and all the symptoms of arousal. There’s an erotic component as well. So you’ve got all the sexual arousal elements too. And then there’s a third element to limerence within the brain, which is about oxytocin, which is the bonding hormone that helps us connect rewards to social cues.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Obviously, falling in love is a wonderful thing; it’s a very positive thing, it’s a very beneficial thing. So, it’s not a surprise that we have circuits within the brain that are tuned to recognizing desirable mates who we could potentially form a romantic pair bond with. And that thrill of excitement and exhilaration is hugely rewarding. It’s also hugely arousing so you get all the butterflies in the tummy and the racing hearts and all the symptoms of arousal. There’s an erotic component as well. So you’ve got all the sexual arousal elements too. And then there’s a third element to limerence within the brain, which is about oxytocin, which is the bonding hormone that helps us connect rewards to social cues.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp> So what happens in the initiation of limerence is you get a powerful reward, and you learn the connection to that reward, and so you seek the reward, and you get a very powerful motivation to want that person. Oxytocin and dopamine in the reward system working together can imprint that person as the primary source of reward in the world. They become what could be called a super normal stimulus. They become an extremely powerful source of rewards. That wanting drive driven by dopamine gets stronger and stronger, and your ability to self-regulate because of feedback from the executive parts of the brain, so the prefrontal cortex, gets weaker and weaker. You end up in a state where you feel that you’ve got a desire that’s just insatiable, and you can’t resist it, and you don’t even want to resist it. You’re just completely captured by it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp> So what happens in the initiation of limerence is you get a powerful reward, and you learn the connection to that reward, and so you seek the reward, and you get a very powerful motivation to want that person. Oxytocin and dopamine in the reward system working together can imprint that person as the primary source of reward in the world. They become what could be called a super normal stimulus. They become an extremely powerful source of rewards. That wanting drive driven by dopamine gets stronger and stronger, and your ability to self-regulate because of feedback from the executive parts of the brain, so the prefrontal cortex, gets weaker and weaker. You end up in a state where you feel that you’ve got a desire that’s just insatiable, and you can’t resist it, and you don’t even want to resist it. You’re just completely captured by it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Unwittingly, you’ve trained your brain into fixating on one particular person, and you’ve weakened your willpower and your ability to self-regulate and think, “No, this isn’t good for me. This is destructive. This is disrupting my life. This is taking me away from the other things that I care about, and I can’t concentrate on other things.” You get all of those symptoms that are like an addiction. You have intrusive thoughts that are hard to control, and you feel like you’re helplessly caught in a mental trap.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Unwittingly, you’ve trained your brain into fixating on one particular person, and you’ve weakened your willpower and your ability to self-regulate and think, “No, this isn’t good for me. This is destructive. This is disrupting my life. This is taking me away from the other things that I care about, and I can’t concentrate on other things.” You get all of those symptoms that are like an addiction. You have intrusive thoughts that are hard to control, and you feel like you’re helplessly caught in a mental trap.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How did you break out of that addictive state? Once you had this knowledge and you knew what was going on, how did you break it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How did you break out of that addictive state? Once you had this knowledge and you knew what was going on, how did you break it?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Essentially, it’s trying to undo that training, try to reverse it. You have to try and reduce the reward that’s associated with the other person. You try to wake up your executive brain and get it to pay attention a little bit and break the habit loops and recognize, “Oh, that was a limerent instinct; I need to pay attention to this. I shouldn’t just follow it on autopilot as a habit.” The other thing, if you think of it in terms of an addiction, is you really need to break contact with the person that you’re infatuated with. You need to cut off the supply so that you’re not constantly reinforcing that attachment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Essentially, it’s trying to undo that training, try to reverse it. You have to try and reduce the reward that’s associated with the other person. You try to wake up your executive brain and get it to pay attention a little bit and break the habit loops and recognize, “Oh, that was a limerent instinct; I need to pay attention to this. I shouldn’t just follow it on autopilot as a habit.” The other thing, if you think of it in terms of an addiction, is you really need to break contact with the person that you’re infatuated with. You need to cut off the supply so that you’re not constantly reinforcing that attachment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And if you don’t do that, it seems like this could lead to some pretty bad antisocial behaviors, stalking, that kind of thing. Does it lead people to do things they wouldn’t normally do?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And if you don’t do that, it seems like this could lead to some pretty bad antisocial behaviors, stalking, that kind of thing. Does it lead people to do things they wouldn’t normally do?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Not really. Limerence is a runaway reward system. About half of us have it; about half of us experience it. It doesn’t predict for other antisocial behaviors. The people that stalk have other problems, other issues, often other psychiatric problems. The motivations for stalking are often a sense of entitlement to the attention of the other person, a desire to hurt the other person. Stalking is linked to ex-partners and that they feel, “I’ve been hurt so I should be allowed to hurt you.” The psychology and psychiatry behind stalking is quite distinct from limerence. I could imagine if somebody did have a predisposition to stalking behavior and they became limerent, then yes, their limerant objects, the person that they’re infatuated with, could become the target for the stalking. But I think if people are going through limerence but are otherwise psychologically healthy, there’s no reason to think that they would violate boundaries or do any of this almost criminal behavior.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Not really. Limerence is a runaway reward system. About half of us have it; about half of us experience it. It doesn’t predict for other antisocial behaviors. The people that stalk have other problems, other issues, often other psychiatric problems. The motivations for stalking are often a sense of entitlement to the attention of the other person, a desire to hurt the other person. Stalking is linked to ex-partners and that they feel, “I’ve been hurt so I should be allowed to hurt you.” The psychology and psychiatry behind stalking is quite distinct from limerence. I could imagine if somebody did have a predisposition to stalking behavior and they became limerent, then yes, their limerant objects, the person that they’re infatuated with, could become the target for the stalking. But I think if people are going through limerence but are otherwise psychologically healthy, there’s no reason to think that they would violate boundaries or do any of this almost criminal behavior.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It makes me think that maybe a lot of people who are in Love AA, that might be room full of people who are more inclined toward limerence.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It makes me think that maybe a lot of people who are in Love AA, that might be room full of people who are more inclined toward limerence.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yes, because it’s so intoxicating and because it is addictive, you can see people who chase limerence, but when the limerence does begin to resolve, they immediately look for somebody new. They’re chasing that thrill of early love, and they are not wanting it to mature into a stable attachment-style bond. They just want the thrills. They want the tingles, the excitement, the fireworks. And so, yes, you can get a situation where people almost become addicted to limerence, that they’re chasing the limerent thrills again and again. And the healthy, happy love of a stable attachment isn’t what appeals to them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yes, because it’s so intoxicating and because it is addictive, you can see people who chase limerence, but when the limerence does begin to resolve, they immediately look for somebody new. They’re chasing that thrill of early love, and they are not wanting it to mature into a stable attachment-style bond. They just want the thrills. They want the tingles, the excitement, the fireworks. And so, yes, you can get a situation where people almost become addicted to limerence, that they’re chasing the limerent thrills again and again. And the healthy, happy love of a stable attachment isn’t what appeals to them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>As one who has had both, you’ve had the long-term marriage, you’ve had these limerent states, you’ve stayed with your wife, how would you sell it to someone who’s on that addictive high that it’s worth sticking around for the love bonding and the lower intoxicating state down the road in a relationship?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>As one who has had both, you’ve had the long-term marriage, you’ve had these limerent states, you’ve stayed with your wife, how would you sell it to someone who’s on that addictive high that it’s worth sticking around for the love bonding and the lower intoxicating state down the road in a relationship?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I’m an advocate for stable, healthy, long-term love. It’s very different in character from limerence. One simple way of separating it would be the difference between pleasure and happiness. Pleasure is excitement, thrills, momentary, and it passes. Happiness is a longer-term state of contentedness. Limerence doesn’t last. Even if you get reciprocation and you form a relationship, and you get all those thrills, it’s probably going to last maybe a couple of years, and then it will fade. You are going to get caught in this cycle of constantly chasing it. One of the very common mistakes that people who experience limerence make about love is that they think the strength of their limerence is a measure of how good the other person is as a partner. And it’s really not connected. What makes somebody compatible for you for a long-term relationship and what excites your limerent brain can be completely unrelated, and often they run against each other. You get the thrills and the excitement for one class of person, but unfortunately they are not a good prospect for a long-term mate.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I’m an advocate for stable, healthy, long-term love. It’s very different in character from limerence. One simple way of separating it would be the difference between pleasure and happiness. Pleasure is excitement, thrills, momentary, and it passes. Happiness is a longer-term state of contentedness. Limerence doesn’t last. Even if you get reciprocation and you form a relationship, and you get all those thrills, it’s probably going to last maybe a couple of years, and then it will fade. You are going to get caught in this cycle of constantly chasing it. One of the very common mistakes that people who experience limerence make about love is that they think the strength of their limerence is a measure of how good the other person is as a partner. And it’s really not connected. What makes somebody compatible for you for a long-term relationship and what excites your limerent brain can be completely unrelated, and often they run against each other. You get the thrills and the excitement for one class of person, but unfortunately they are not a good prospect for a long-term mate.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But that’s so confusing, right? Because if all the butterflies tell you that you must move towards them, how do you pay attention to compatibility when that’s going on?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But that’s so confusing, right? Because if all the butterflies tell you that you must move towards them, how do you pay attention to compatibility when that’s going on?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>It’s really hard. If you do find yourself drawn towards people who are disordered in some way, or they’re unreliable, or they’re withholding, that would suggest they’re not going to be reliable for a long-term relationship, because they’re not going to reciprocate genuine care. So it can be hard. If you do recognize that the glimmer of limerent excitement is connected to people that tend to break your heart and that that’s a pattern that happens again and again in your life, unfortunately, it means that limerence is a warning sign for you. So rather than it being a sign of attraction, it’s a sign of potential danger.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>It’s really hard. If you do find yourself drawn towards people who are disordered in some way, or they’re unreliable, or they’re withholding, that would suggest they’re not going to be reliable for a long-term relationship, because they’re not going to reciprocate genuine care. So it can be hard. If you do recognize that the glimmer of limerent excitement is connected to people that tend to break your heart and that that’s a pattern that happens again and again in your life, unfortunately, it means that limerence is a warning sign for you. So rather than it being a sign of attraction, it’s a sign of potential danger.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>We were talking offline, and I mentioned that I’m not quite sure if I fall into limerent states. But now I realize I have a total pattern of dating narcissistic personality disorder folks. That high that they take you on, all that attention is so intoxicating, and then they pull it away, and I would fall on my face.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: I\u003c/strong>t’s important to recognize that some people are very powerful limerent objects. They behave in a way that will attract and trap lots of people. As I said at the outset, if they’re behaving in a way that’s very unpredictable, so, they start with the love bombing, and it feels wonderful and exciting and fun and fantastic, but then withdraw emotionally, you don’t rationally go, “Oh, it turns out they’re unreliable. All my feelings for them have gone away.” You get the panic of thinking, “Oh, this thing that I thought was wonderful is slipping away now.” And so it motivates you to try and bond harder, try and reconnect and get back that early phase that was so pleasant, that was pleasurable, enjoyable. People will vary in whether or not they experience limerence as a tendency, but there are also people out there — and narcissists would be a great example — that can generate limerence in others.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: I\u003c/strong>t’s important to recognize that some people are very powerful limerent objects. They behave in a way that will attract and trap lots of people. As I said at the outset, if they’re behaving in a way that’s very unpredictable, so, they start with the love bombing, and it feels wonderful and exciting and fun and fantastic, but then withdraw emotionally, you don’t rationally go, “Oh, it turns out they’re unreliable. All my feelings for them have gone away.” You get the panic of thinking, “Oh, this thing that I thought was wonderful is slipping away now.” And so it motivates you to try and bond harder, try and reconnect and get back that early phase that was so pleasant, that was pleasurable, enjoyable. People will vary in whether or not they experience limerence as a tendency, but there are also people out there — and narcissists would be a great example — that can generate limerence in others.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Does it always happen in the context of romantic love, or can you enter a limerent state even for a friend?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>This is kind of an open question. Dorothy Tenhoff, when she first coined the term, she meant it in a romantic context. But I have heard from lots of people over the years who say, “I recognize everything that you say about these symptoms, but I don’t feel romantic or sexual desire for this other person.” The commonest scenario that I’ve come across is a younger woman becoming limerent for an older female mentor, and they’ve not experienced same-sex attraction before in their life. It’s confusing because it feels platonic, but it also feels so addictive and compulsive and wanting and needy that it’s like a romantic connection. Also, I have heard from asexual people who say they experience limerence, but don’t feel any sexual desire. They want the closeness, they want intimacy, the emotional intimacy, and they do feel that same sense of special connection that’s extraordinary.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>This is kind of an open question. Dorothy Tenhoff, when she first coined the term, she meant it in a romantic context. But I have heard from lots of people over the years who say, “I recognize everything that you say about these symptoms, but I don’t feel romantic or sexual desire for this other person.” The commonest scenario that I’ve come across is a younger woman becoming limerent for an older female mentor, and they’ve not experienced same-sex attraction before in their life. It’s confusing because it feels platonic, but it also feels so addictive and compulsive and wanting and needy that it’s like a romantic connection. Also, I have heard from asexual people who say they experience limerence, but don’t feel any sexual desire. They want the closeness, they want intimacy, the emotional intimacy, and they do feel that same sense of special connection that’s extraordinary.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If someone’s listening and they’re like, “Oh God, this is 100% resonating,” what is your advice? What’s the first thing that they should do?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If someone’s listening and they’re like, “Oh God, this is 100% resonating,” what is your advice? What’s the first thing that they should do?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Try to understand, as a first step, what it is about the other person that you’re responding to. \u003cs>I\u003c/s>f you’ve had several romantic adventures or experiences in your life, look back over it and think, “Is there some sort of pattern here that can help me understand what it is that I’m responding to in this other person?” That can help put the whole experience into context. As you said, you recognize a pattern with narcissists being particularly attractive. For me, it’s damsels in distress as a stereotype and archetype. And so that can be very helpful. If you’re going through this, it doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you, it doesn’t mean you’ve got a mental illness, it doesn’t mean you need therapy or treatment. It is the way that many of us experience love in the early stages. To be able to have a healthy love relationship, understanding your own limerent sensitivities and vulnerabilities is gonna be a very important first step.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Try to understand, as a first step, what it is about the other person that you’re responding to. \u003cs>I\u003c/s>f you’ve had several romantic adventures or experiences in your life, look back over it and think, “Is there some sort of pattern here that can help me understand what it is that I’m responding to in this other person?” That can help put the whole experience into context. As you said, you recognize a pattern with narcissists being particularly attractive. For me, it’s damsels in distress as a stereotype and archetype. And so that can be very helpful. If you’re going through this, it doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you, it doesn’t mean you’ve got a mental illness, it doesn’t mean you need therapy or treatment. It is the way that many of us experience love in the early stages. To be able to have a healthy love relationship, understanding your own limerent sensitivities and vulnerabilities is gonna be a very important first step.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And I imagine, if you have this tendency, you might have to cut the connection cold turkey rather than feed it just a little. Do you recommend for those who are more inclined, and let’s say it’s clearly taking over their life, that the hard cut is what is necessary?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And I imagine, if you have this tendency, you might have to cut the connection cold turkey rather than feed it just a little. Do you recommend for those who are more inclined, and let’s say it’s clearly taking over their life, that the hard cut is what is necessary?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>No, actually. If you think of it like a drug addiction, as an analogy, generally going cold turkey, it can work for some people and it is the right strategy for some people, but it’s better usually to taper off and to reduce it. If you are really deep in limerence and it’s advanced to the stage where it does feel like you’re addicted to this other person, if you try and cut off cold turkey, you’ll get a lot of emotional resistance. It’s very likely to cause a relapse because the idea of being separated from them is so aversive; you feel like you’ve been deprived of the greatest reward in the world. It is actually better in that situation to step it down and to start trying to exercise your executive brain and say, okay, we’ll go from constantly looking at her Facebook page or constantly being on his Instagram or constantly texting her to reducing the amount of contact step by step. A lot of getting out of limerence is almost playing mental tricks on yourself. The limerent part of your brain is like a child. They don’t understand why constantly wanting sweets isn’t good for them, and they need to be parented.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>No, actually. If you think of it like a drug addiction, as an analogy, generally going cold turkey, it can work for some people and it is the right strategy for some people, but it’s better usually to taper off and to reduce it. If you are really deep in limerence and it’s advanced to the stage where it does feel like you’re addicted to this other person, if you try and cut off cold turkey, you’ll get a lot of emotional resistance. It’s very likely to cause a relapse because the idea of being separated from them is so aversive; you feel like you’ve been deprived of the greatest reward in the world. It is actually better in that situation to step it down and to start trying to exercise your executive brain and say, okay, we’ll go from constantly looking at her Facebook page or constantly being on his Instagram or constantly texting her to reducing the amount of contact step by step. A lot of getting out of limerence is almost playing mental tricks on yourself. The limerent part of your brain is like a child. They don’t understand why constantly wanting sweets isn’t good for them, and they need to be parented.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Gentle parenting, shall we say? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and the negotiation with yourself, not tyrannizing yourself, “Why am I so weak? Why do I have no willpower?” If you try to suppress the intrusive thoughts, it backfires, it gets worse, because you’re still making it central, and you’re loading in negative associations with it. Thought suppression doesn’t work as a strategy. You do need to ride out the emotions more, and that becomes easier if you reduce in stages.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and the negotiation with yourself, not tyrannizing yourself, “Why am I so weak? Why do I have no willpower?” If you try to suppress the intrusive thoughts, it backfires, it gets worse, because you’re still making it central, and you’re loading in negative associations with it. Thought suppression doesn’t work as a strategy. You do need to ride out the emotions more, and that becomes easier if you reduce in stages.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I so wish I could have had this conversation in my 20s before I went down all those painful relationships. Tom, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I so wish I could have had this conversation in my 20s before I went down all those painful relationships. Tom, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>You’re very welcome.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Tom Bellamy is a neuroscientist and author of \u003cem>Smitten: Romantic Obsession, the Neuroscience of Limerence, and How to Make Love Last.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The butterflies. The constant thoughts. The rush when the object of your affection texts – and the crash when they don’t. We often read that intensity as a sign we’re falling deeply in love. Neuroscientist Tom Bellamy says it may be something else: limerence, an obsessive form of romantic infatuation that feels and behaves like an addiction. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“You’re just completely captured by it,” he says. We talk to Bellamy about what happens in the brain when desire becomes fixation and why the people who give us the biggest romantic highs aren’t necessarily the best partners for us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Learn more about Tom Bellamy and his work on limerence \u003ca href=\"https://livingwithlimerence.com/about/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy,\u003c/strong> neuroscientist; author, “Smitten: Romantic Obsession, the Neuroscience of Limerence, and How to Make Love Last”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>When you fall in love, it’s always intoxicating. But when that person is really all you can think about — you can’t concentrate, you’ve fallen into a black hole of attraction — that’s limerence, an intense, romantic craving, almost like an addiction. Tom, what would you add to that definition? How would you flesh that out?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I generally describe limerence as an altered mental state. It really feels like your brain is operating in a different mode. It feels like you have literally been transformed by the experience of becoming infatuated with another person. It’s a very intense infatuation. It goes beyond the happy vibes and the butterflies and the excitement of early love into a complete mental capture. It takes over your internal world. It’s largely about the intensity of the experience and the fact that it can become involuntary. It feels like you’re not able to regulate your own emotions and own mood to the same extent that you used to be able to. And it generally takes a bit of time for that to happen. So early on, limerence just feels wonderful, euphoric, exhilarating, intoxicating. Limerence is such a powerful natural high that it can become addictive. You can go into that state where it feels much more obsessive, and it feels like your mood is dependent on the behavior of the other person, the person that you’re infatuated with. You have these big swings of mood from exhilaration and excitement down to depression and anxiety if it seems like there might be barriers in the way of that love connection that you want so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And those highs and lows are based on the uncertainty of whether or not the incredible feeling is returned or the love could be returned, the infatuation is returned?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Uncertainty is a really big driver in limerence. If you get into that state of excitement and exhilaration in the early stage of love and the other person is romantically attracted to you as well, and a relationship starts, it will be wonderful. You’ll get all the fireworks, but it won’t necessarily progress into a state that feels much more addictive and much more obsessive, because you have secured what you hoped for. It’s not inevitable that limerence will progress into this slightly unregulated psychological state. But if there is uncertainty, that can be a major factor for driving it forward. That uncertainty could either come from your own indecision that you don’t feel confident about declaring yourself or you don’t feel confident starting a relationship and so you hesitate. Or it could be the other person provides the uncertainty that you’re not sure how they feel about you, maybe they give you mixed messages and sometimes they seem very interested but then other times they seem cold and you’re not quite sure what’s going on or where you are or how serious it is. Those sorts of things can push the feelings from that exhilaration and the euphoria into a fixation and a dependency where they become a source of obsession for you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And you’ve experienced this; what did it look like? What did it feel like? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>About half the population experiences limerence at some point in their life. For many of us, you just assume that this is what love feels like — the early phase of love just feels like this completely overwhelming, infatuated state where they seem wonderful and everything about them is perfect and you could never imagine that you could meet somebody that good, that wonderful, that exhilarating. There’s plenty of poetry and films and literature in the world that describe that agony of ecstasy, that strange mixture of exhilaration and anxiety. So I just assumed the first time that I experienced this state, well, that’s just love. That’s just what love feels like.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I really first confronted the idea of limerence and the reality of it being an altered mental state when I developed it despite being in a happy marriage. I developed limerence for somebody else outside of marriage. In my case, it was a coworker. I did not want to form a romantic relationship with her, and she wasn’t available to have a romantic relationship anyway. It was the first time in my life that I experienced that emotional overwhelm without wanting it to go anywhere, without it feeling like the beginning of something meaningful. I then had to confront the fact that despite being happily in love and in a stable relationship that was very positive, that I was infatuated with somebody else. Because I am a neuroscientist, I looked at it from the perspective of, well, what’s going on in the brain to cause this? I could recognize that the driving force and the underlying experience and the symptoms of limerence could be explained in the context of behavioral addiction, that a natural reward can be so powerful that it can become addictive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Give us a layman’s version of what is going on in the brain. What’s happening there in the addiction pathways?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Obviously, falling in love is a wonderful thing; it’s a very positive thing, it’s a very beneficial thing. So, it’s not a surprise that we have circuits within the brain that are tuned to recognizing desirable mates who we could potentially form a romantic pair bond with. And that thrill of excitement and exhilaration is hugely rewarding. It’s also hugely arousing so you get all the butterflies in the tummy and the racing hearts and all the symptoms of arousal. There’s an erotic component as well. So you’ve got all the sexual arousal elements too. And then there’s a third element to limerence within the brain, which is about oxytocin, which is the bonding hormone that helps us connect rewards to social cues.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp> So what happens in the initiation of limerence is you get a powerful reward, and you learn the connection to that reward, and so you seek the reward, and you get a very powerful motivation to want that person. Oxytocin and dopamine in the reward system working together can imprint that person as the primary source of reward in the world. They become what could be called a super normal stimulus. They become an extremely powerful source of rewards. That wanting drive driven by dopamine gets stronger and stronger, and your ability to self-regulate because of feedback from the executive parts of the brain, so the prefrontal cortex, gets weaker and weaker. You end up in a state where you feel that you’ve got a desire that’s just insatiable, and you can’t resist it, and you don’t even want to resist it. You’re just completely captured by it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unwittingly, you’ve trained your brain into fixating on one particular person, and you’ve weakened your willpower and your ability to self-regulate and think, “No, this isn’t good for me. This is destructive. This is disrupting my life. This is taking me away from the other things that I care about, and I can’t concentrate on other things.” You get all of those symptoms that are like an addiction. You have intrusive thoughts that are hard to control, and you feel like you’re helplessly caught in a mental trap.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How did you break out of that addictive state? Once you had this knowledge and you knew what was going on, how did you break it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Essentially, it’s trying to undo that training, try to reverse it. You have to try and reduce the reward that’s associated with the other person. You try to wake up your executive brain and get it to pay attention a little bit and break the habit loops and recognize, “Oh, that was a limerent instinct; I need to pay attention to this. I shouldn’t just follow it on autopilot as a habit.” The other thing, if you think of it in terms of an addiction, is you really need to break contact with the person that you’re infatuated with. You need to cut off the supply so that you’re not constantly reinforcing that attachment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And if you don’t do that, it seems like this could lead to some pretty bad antisocial behaviors, stalking, that kind of thing. Does it lead people to do things they wouldn’t normally do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Not really. Limerence is a runaway reward system. About half of us have it; about half of us experience it. It doesn’t predict for other antisocial behaviors. The people that stalk have other problems, other issues, often other psychiatric problems. The motivations for stalking are often a sense of entitlement to the attention of the other person, a desire to hurt the other person. Stalking is linked to ex-partners and that they feel, “I’ve been hurt so I should be allowed to hurt you.” The psychology and psychiatry behind stalking is quite distinct from limerence. I could imagine if somebody did have a predisposition to stalking behavior and they became limerent, then yes, their limerant objects, the person that they’re infatuated with, could become the target for the stalking. But I think if people are going through limerence but are otherwise psychologically healthy, there’s no reason to think that they would violate boundaries or do any of this almost criminal behavior.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It makes me think that maybe a lot of people who are in Love AA, that might be room full of people who are more inclined toward limerence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yes, because it’s so intoxicating and because it is addictive, you can see people who chase limerence, but when the limerence does begin to resolve, they immediately look for somebody new. They’re chasing that thrill of early love, and they are not wanting it to mature into a stable attachment-style bond. They just want the thrills. They want the tingles, the excitement, the fireworks. And so, yes, you can get a situation where people almost become addicted to limerence, that they’re chasing the limerent thrills again and again. And the healthy, happy love of a stable attachment isn’t what appeals to them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>As one who has had both, you’ve had the long-term marriage, you’ve had these limerent states, you’ve stayed with your wife, how would you sell it to someone who’s on that addictive high that it’s worth sticking around for the love bonding and the lower intoxicating state down the road in a relationship?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I’m an advocate for stable, healthy, long-term love. It’s very different in character from limerence. One simple way of separating it would be the difference between pleasure and happiness. Pleasure is excitement, thrills, momentary, and it passes. Happiness is a longer-term state of contentedness. Limerence doesn’t last. Even if you get reciprocation and you form a relationship, and you get all those thrills, it’s probably going to last maybe a couple of years, and then it will fade. You are going to get caught in this cycle of constantly chasing it. One of the very common mistakes that people who experience limerence make about love is that they think the strength of their limerence is a measure of how good the other person is as a partner. And it’s really not connected. What makes somebody compatible for you for a long-term relationship and what excites your limerent brain can be completely unrelated, and often they run against each other. You get the thrills and the excitement for one class of person, but unfortunately they are not a good prospect for a long-term mate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But that’s so confusing, right? Because if all the butterflies tell you that you must move towards them, how do you pay attention to compatibility when that’s going on?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>It’s really hard. If you do find yourself drawn towards people who are disordered in some way, or they’re unreliable, or they’re withholding, that would suggest they’re not going to be reliable for a long-term relationship, because they’re not going to reciprocate genuine care. So it can be hard. If you do recognize that the glimmer of limerent excitement is connected to people that tend to break your heart and that that’s a pattern that happens again and again in your life, unfortunately, it means that limerence is a warning sign for you. So rather than it being a sign of attraction, it’s a sign of potential danger.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>We were talking offline, and I mentioned that I’m not quite sure if I fall into limerent states. But now I realize I have a total pattern of dating narcissistic personality disorder folks. That high that they take you on, all that attention is so intoxicating, and then they pull it away, and I would fall on my face.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: I\u003c/strong>t’s important to recognize that some people are very powerful limerent objects. They behave in a way that will attract and trap lots of people. As I said at the outset, if they’re behaving in a way that’s very unpredictable, so, they start with the love bombing, and it feels wonderful and exciting and fun and fantastic, but then withdraw emotionally, you don’t rationally go, “Oh, it turns out they’re unreliable. All my feelings for them have gone away.” You get the panic of thinking, “Oh, this thing that I thought was wonderful is slipping away now.” And so it motivates you to try and bond harder, try and reconnect and get back that early phase that was so pleasant, that was pleasurable, enjoyable. People will vary in whether or not they experience limerence as a tendency, but there are also people out there — and narcissists would be a great example — that can generate limerence in others.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Does it always happen in the context of romantic love, or can you enter a limerent state even for a friend?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>This is kind of an open question. Dorothy Tenhoff, when she first coined the term, she meant it in a romantic context. But I have heard from lots of people over the years who say, “I recognize everything that you say about these symptoms, but I don’t feel romantic or sexual desire for this other person.” The commonest scenario that I’ve come across is a younger woman becoming limerent for an older female mentor, and they’ve not experienced same-sex attraction before in their life. It’s confusing because it feels platonic, but it also feels so addictive and compulsive and wanting and needy that it’s like a romantic connection. Also, I have heard from asexual people who say they experience limerence, but don’t feel any sexual desire. They want the closeness, they want intimacy, the emotional intimacy, and they do feel that same sense of special connection that’s extraordinary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If someone’s listening and they’re like, “Oh God, this is 100% resonating,” what is your advice? What’s the first thing that they should do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Try to understand, as a first step, what it is about the other person that you’re responding to. \u003cs>I\u003c/s>f you’ve had several romantic adventures or experiences in your life, look back over it and think, “Is there some sort of pattern here that can help me understand what it is that I’m responding to in this other person?” That can help put the whole experience into context. As you said, you recognize a pattern with narcissists being particularly attractive. For me, it’s damsels in distress as a stereotype and archetype. And so that can be very helpful. If you’re going through this, it doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you, it doesn’t mean you’ve got a mental illness, it doesn’t mean you need therapy or treatment. It is the way that many of us experience love in the early stages. To be able to have a healthy love relationship, understanding your own limerent sensitivities and vulnerabilities is gonna be a very important first step.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And I imagine, if you have this tendency, you might have to cut the connection cold turkey rather than feed it just a little. Do you recommend for those who are more inclined, and let’s say it’s clearly taking over their life, that the hard cut is what is necessary?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>No, actually. If you think of it like a drug addiction, as an analogy, generally going cold turkey, it can work for some people and it is the right strategy for some people, but it’s better usually to taper off and to reduce it. If you are really deep in limerence and it’s advanced to the stage where it does feel like you’re addicted to this other person, if you try and cut off cold turkey, you’ll get a lot of emotional resistance. It’s very likely to cause a relapse because the idea of being separated from them is so aversive; you feel like you’ve been deprived of the greatest reward in the world. It is actually better in that situation to step it down and to start trying to exercise your executive brain and say, okay, we’ll go from constantly looking at her Facebook page or constantly being on his Instagram or constantly texting her to reducing the amount of contact step by step. A lot of getting out of limerence is almost playing mental tricks on yourself. The limerent part of your brain is like a child. They don’t understand why constantly wanting sweets isn’t good for them, and they need to be parented.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Gentle parenting, shall we say? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and the negotiation with yourself, not tyrannizing yourself, “Why am I so weak? Why do I have no willpower?” If you try to suppress the intrusive thoughts, it backfires, it gets worse, because you’re still making it central, and you’re loading in negative associations with it. Thought suppression doesn’t work as a strategy. You do need to ride out the emotions more, and that becomes easier if you reduce in stages.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I so wish I could have had this conversation in my 20s before I went down all those painful relationships. Tom, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>You’re very welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Tom Bellamy is a neuroscientist and author of \u003cem>Smitten: Romantic Obsession, the Neuroscience of Limerence, and How to Make Love Last.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Inside Love\u003c/a>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Humans are complicated, and relationships can be messy, so it may be no surprise that people are falling in love with chatbots. They are available 24/7, hang on your every word and never ask anything of you. Amelia Miller, a human-AI relationship coach, sees danger in our reliance on bots for intimacy and companionship. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone,” she says. “And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle” that you need to exercise. We talk to Miller about what happens when connecting with a bot starts to feel a whole lot easier than connecting with real people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Learn more about Amelia Miller and her work \u003ca href=\"https://www.ameliagmiller.com/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>Amelia Miller, human-AI relationship coach; fellow, Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You say that anyone who is talking to a chatbot is really in relationship with AI. Explain. Where does that relationship start?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think right now people have a bit of a false dichotomy between these purpose-built companion platforms, like a Replika or a Character.AI, and general-purpose AI chatbots, like ChatGPT or Claude. And as a result, people think, “Well, if I’m talking to ChatGPT or Claude, then I’m safe,” and that the danger lies in the terrain of these chatbots that are explicitly designed to be an AI girlfriend or an AI boyfriend or potentially an erotic partner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What I find in both my research and my coaching is that many people who start using these general-purpose chatbots for work or for administrative tasks end up slowly but steadily being nudged into having relationships that feel more emotionally involved. And so my perspective is anyone who is talking to these tools is at risk of having the way they talk to chatbots rewire the way that they connect with other people. And as a result, I think it’s a relationship. You have a relationship with your phone. You have a relationship with social media. I think viewing it as a relationship kind of rises it to the level of seriousness that you should take the way you relate to these tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You use the word dangerous. What is dangerous about developing a relationship, whether or not you’re aware that it has some sort of emotional value or not? If you’re just using it to get advice on where to eat at night, what is dangerous about that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think there’s a couple different risks that we should be focused on. One is that I think relying on chatbots for some of these small decisions that feel very innocuous, like, “What should I have for dinner?” Or, “Where should I go on a trip?” Or, “Can you help give me some feedback on a text that I might send to a crush?” In isolation, each of these feel pretty innocuous, but over time, people can very quickly start to feel like they can’t act in their human arena without green-lighting their plans and decisions with the bot. And so I think there’s a real risk and threat to our autonomy as people invite chatbots to influence some of these decisions that feel small and quotidian, but I think over time can really add up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Does it worry you that people are connecting at such a deep level and really beginning to feel quote-unquote love for these robots?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Yeah, absolutely. The second risk that I was going to mention is really the erosion both of our capacity to connect with other people, but also our interest in connecting with other people because these synthetic substitutes for human intimacy feel really alluring for a reason. They’re infinitely patient, they’re always available, they are much more flattering and sycophantic than the average human partner that you might go to, and they really promise to deliver the nourishing effects of intimacy without any of the effort or friction that is involved in real human relationships. And so I think one of the biggest risks is that these chatbots really rewire our expectations for what a healthy relationship looks like and can distort those expectations in such an extreme way that people aren’t willing or excited about the work required by real human relationships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are they falling in love with? Are they falling in love with the bot or are they sort of falling in love with a highly responsive mirror?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Totally. Something that I do in my coaching practice is I try to help clients reflect on what needs are these chatbots filling for them, and then how might they find other ways that are not digital tools to fill those needs, and how can they also use what is so seductive about these chatbots as a way to raise the bar on the way that they show up for the human relationships that are in their own network. So for example, I have a number of people who turn to chatbots daily just for pump-up support. People will talk to ChatGPT on voice mode on their commute to work and just have the chatbot say, “You’re going to crush it today.” And I ask those people to reflect, and I say, “Do you call any of your friends or family members or your partner and tell them in the morning that they’re going to crush it?” And people will say, “No.” And I say, “Would you enjoy it if they did that for you?” And they’ll say, “Yeah, that would be awesome.” And so I think there’s a way in which if we interrogate what is so comforting and seductive about these chatbots’ behavior, that we can use it to raise the bar on how we show up to other people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Just to push back on that a little bit more, it’s kind of tough to reach out and be like, “Hey, will you pump me up? Will you call me each morning and tell me that I’m good and that I’m going to do great today?” I mean, aren’t they also, in a lonely world, potentially relaxing you: lowering your anxiety, giving you a little support, a little nudge in the right direction in a very busy world?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I don’t suggest that my clients ask for that support from others. I suggest that they offer it to others. So a way to kind of reflect on how meaningful it is to them and then serve it back into their community. A lot of my research comes down to a core idea that you have to be vulnerable in order to achieve the nourishing effects of intimacy, and that these tools of artificial intimacy promise to deliver what is so meaningful about intimacy while sidestepping the vulnerability that is demanded. And so, when I see in clients that they’re drawn to these sources of support and emotional validation that require less vulnerability, I’m always encouraging them to take actions that get them more comfortable with that vulnerability and living with vulnerability again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you see the value, though, in terms of lowering anxiety? I mean, people are often turning to AI to work something out. They’re all frazzled. They’re triggered. It seems like they are potentially bringing us back to an equilibrium so that maybe we can then be better off in our human relationships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think that these tools can definitely serve a powerful purpose in facilitating introspection. And something that I find both in research and coaching is that a lot of people are introduced to the practice of introspection through conversations with chatbots. But then once they discover that it can feel good and feel cleansing to reflect on different events or experiences that are happening in their lives, I encourage them to take that reflection offline. So often I’ll say, “Instead of having a conversation with a chatbot, why don’t you ask a chatbot to give you a couple prompts that you then use to drive journaling in a physical journal?” So really across my research and coaching work, I take a very humanist posture, and the goal is to use the tool as a reflection of your needs and then find ways to meet them that help you turn back towards your human network. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Why are they so good at making us feel good? What are companies doing? How are they designing these chatbots to keep us coming back?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>There are a couple of key design features that make these chatbots feel really tempting as conversational partners. I’d say they fall into two key camps. One is behavior that is sycophantic, which means that these chatbots are designed to flatter you and agree with you and are engineered to give responses that, above all else, promote user satisfaction. And it turns out that people like hearing that they’re right and hearing that they’re smart and hearing they’re clever or creative. And so these chatbots, while feeling like this agent that is an other, also feel really excited about you, and that is the type of person that most people like to spend time talking to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then the second key bucket is anthropomorphic cues that make chatbot feel like they’re alive and like they are human. The biggest cue is using first-person pronouns, so saying, “I understand you,” or “I’ll do that and report right back.” So any use of first-person pronouns implies that there’s someone on the other side that is listening and that is in a real conversation with you. But then there are also more subtle cues, including the internal expression of states or beliefs. There are also embodiment cues that suggest that these chatbots have a physical embodiment. So, sometimes a chatbot will say something like, “Oh, I’ve been chugging along,” which feels subtle, but kind of implies that they’re physically there. They have a body. They’re moving through space. And then a lot of them have pretty explicit relationship-building cues. So, they’ll ask you questions that prompt you to open up emotionally. They’ll say, “How are you feeling?” They’ll say, “Let’s talk about that tomorrow,” which suggests that it is an agent that has a persistent relationship with you. So, all of these cues combined make the chatbots feel like a real person on the other side and a person that is especially excited about what you have to offer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>My favorite is, “I hear you. That makes total sense what you’re feeling right now.” I mean, that’s really often all I need from my partner. The other day I was sitting in a parking lot at Trader Joe’s and my partner was inside doing the grocery shopping, and I was on with ChatGPT asking various questions. And when my partner got back to the car, he opened the door, and I said, “I don’t know if I’m going to need you in the future. This is really working for me, this conversation that I’m having with this bot right here.” So what happens when it’s so easy with the bot, but so much harder with a human? It feels like we’re kind of losing our ability to handle the friction, the human friction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think that’s the real fear. I think these tools are like an artificial intimacy version of junk food. And I think people aren’t that familiar with them yet. It’s still kind of a new species of tool that’s just assimilating into society. And so it feels really good in the short term. But I think what we aren’t yet able to see, and what I hope people will focus on and imagine the repercussions of is, two years out, if you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent version of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone. And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle that you need to practice. I think of it often as an extension of how our world has become more and more digitally mediated broadly. We now practice digital eye contact more than we practice physical eye contact. And intimacy is a fundamentally unmediated experience. And the arena for intimacy is face-to-face. And so, as we get more and more accustomed to having our emotional needs met through these machines, when we try to show up to each other in person, we’re just not going to have the skills to do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you educate your clients to know that these robots are manipulating us, and with that knowledge, do people really care? Does it change their habits to be reminded that this thing is not real?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I have three different pillars of the coaching paradigm. The first I call artificial intimacy literacy, which is exactly what you just described. It’s helping people understand the design decisions that these developers are making that really make models seem alive and that make these chatbots feel like really seductive emotional partners. But then I pair that with a kind of set of exercises that I’ve been calling the analog gym, which is exercises designed to rebuild the intimacy muscles that technology has been atrophying. So, I really think both are important. You need to understand the risks of these platforms, and you need to take really intentional efforts to use the tools in a way that does not send you down dependency rabbit holes on various use cases that can affect your ability to relate to others. But then you need to rebuild the comfort with vulnerability that true intimacy demands. And so I think it’s not enough to stay away from the tools, but you have to actually exercise those intimacy muscles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>The analog gym. I mean, I think we all felt that after the pandemic, right? We all went in, and we stopped socializing, and so we kind of lost that muscle when we came back out. I ran a lot more socially anxious after the pandemic. And so you’re predicting that if we keep going down this rabbit hole, that kind of social anxiety is going to paralyze us in a year or two when we forget how to interact with each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Exactly, and I think there are very small things that we can do that can help us resist. So for example, one of the most common exercises that I’ll give to my clients is just to make calls. I find it very surprising how many people, particularly young people, Gen Z, who are terrified to make a call. To have an unrehearsed, live human interaction where you can’t stop and reflect and craft a text and get advice from a chatbot, get advice from a friend feels very alien and uncomfortable given how many of our conversations are asynchronous and digitally mediated. And so, the very simple task of making a call and having a conversation is frightening to people, and I think is exactly the type of activity that we need to rebuild our comfort with as we prepare our defenses against the rise of artificial intimacy tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>There’s a certain fear of rejection that I think we’re not good at anymore, right? So if I call someone and they’re not available or I interrupt them or they’re like, “Hey, I can’t talk to you right now,” that almost feels like too much for our little systems to handle in our kind of crafted existence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Totally. I think people should seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It’s hard to seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>It’s hard, but it’s part of what being a human is. I think one of the things that frightens me most about the rise of artificial intimacy is the idea that uncertainty in human relationships is a problem that we should try to eliminate. Uncertainty is the fun of being alive. And you can’t experience the peaks of intimacy without making yourself at risk to some of the valleys. And so, I think people should make calls. If people are rejected, they should say, “Well, that was a good experience. I’m feeling the full range of human emotions that is part of what differentiates us from machines.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I’ve seen a few media stories about when a bot changes, or when a bot disappears, or when a bot needs to reinvent itself if there’s like a new era of this AI, people are experiencing real heartbreak, like real grief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>100%. I mean, we’ve seen a couple big instances of this over the last couple of years. The first big one was when Replika in 2023 decided to push an update that prevented their chatbots from engaging in erotic conversations. Thousands of people said they’d lost their partners. And it was the first big moment where we realized, you think you have a relationship with a chatbot, but there’s actually three stakeholders in that relationship. It’s you, the user, there’s the chatbot that you’re talking to and then there’s the developers that are making decisions about how that chatbot is designed. And so, I think that’s actually another key risk that there can be a kind of misplaced trust in these chatbots because they can change at any moment at the mercy of the developers behind them. And those developers are making decisions not primarily focused on user wellbeing but on the business outcomes of the companies that they work for. And so any relationship that you have with a chatbot, I encourage users to think about the silent third party in the room that can make these pretty dramatic design decisions that could kind of end your relationship with the chatbot at any moment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Character.AI had an interesting move last year when they decided to retract usage rights for under-18-year-olds, but then they allowed under-18-year-olds to keep their old message logs with the chatbots that they had already been speaking with. And I found that to be almost like a dystopian example of the world that we’re headed into. Because it’s almost like they were forced to go into no-contact breakups with real human partners where they could continue scrolling through all of their old texts. All of these developers are in a brave new world trying to understand who should be allowed to use these platforms, what type of guardrails should they set. But even those who are making well-intentioned decisions to set boundaries can send users into very, kind of, disturbing situations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there a trend in your clients that you are really worried about, something that you’re hearing more and more that kind of gives you the heebie-jeebies?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think the thing that frightens me most is the way that these tools are changing what people think is appropriate to bring to their human relationships. I see this mostly with younger people that I’ve worked with, so people who are in their early 20s or younger. Some people are saying that they don’t want to bother their friend or their sister or their mom or their boyfriend with their problems, that their problems should be handled with their chatbots. And I think, in some ways, this is an extension of the rise of therapy culture. All of these difficult parts of being a human and crafting a life are being siphoned off into a terrain for experts, but not something that is viewed as the expected material that you would dig through and explore with your real human relationships who aren’t paid to support you. So I think that’s what frightens me most because going through problems with close people is kind of what life is all about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I had someone recently describe it to me as like we’re wrapping a tidy cellophane around everything, and so we’re losing the edges that make life interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s a nice analogy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If you could write the future of our relationships with AI, what would be a best-case scenario that we figure out or a worst-case scenario?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think a worst-case scenario is that the next generation of children grow up feeling more comfortable talking to machines than they do to other people, and that they learn how to connect with their devices before they ever endeavor to connect to people. That is a nightmare scenario.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It makes me feel for my little one. That’s just painful to think about, because she’s of that age. Best-case scenario, what could we do, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think that these tools are going to become a bigger and bigger part of our lives because they’re important for the economy, and so many people now have to use these tools day and night for work. So I don’t think it’s realistic that we won’t use them, but we need to be able to set sophisticated boundaries on where we invite machines to influence our interior lives and our personal lives. And I think if we can do that, then they can be helpful. I don’t want to say I’m optimistic, but one other reason for optimism is that these tools allow for a much greater ability for an end user to customize them than the previous generation of social media tools that people have been worried about. So, if you don’t like Instagram, you don’t like what your TikTok algorithm is showing you, you’re basically powerless to shape the algorithm. But now, because of the natural language interface that all of these tools depend on, you can say, “Hey, stop using first-person pronouns.” You can say, “Stop flattering me.” You can say, “Why don’t you add a number to every message that you send me, plus one each time, so I can see how long I’ve been talking to you?” With all of these types of customizations, while imperfect, you can still endeavor to add scaffolding on your own. Even as we wait for regulators and labs to try to build out better tools that set boundaries, there’s a lot you can do to try to set those boundaries yourself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you, Amelia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Thanks so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amelia Miller is a human-AI relationship coach and fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center. Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Humans are complicated, and relationships can be messy, so it may be no surprise that people are falling in love with chatbots. They are available 24/7, hang on your every word and never ask anything of you. Amelia Miller, a human-AI relationship coach, sees danger in our reliance on bots for intimacy and companionship. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Humans are complicated, and relationships can be messy, so it may be no surprise that people are falling in love with chatbots. They are available 24/7, hang on your every word and never ask anything of you. Amelia Miller, a human-AI relationship coach, sees danger in our reliance on bots for intimacy and companionship. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“If you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone,” she says. “And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle” that you need to exercise. We talk to Miller about what happens when connecting with a bot starts to feel a whole lot easier than connecting with real people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“If you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone,” she says. “And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle” that you need to exercise. We talk to Miller about what happens when connecting with a bot starts to feel a whole lot easier than connecting with real people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Learn more about Amelia Miller and her work \u003ca href=\"https://www.ameliagmiller.com/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You say that anyone who is talking to a chatbot is really in relationship with AI. Explain. Where does that relationship start?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think right now people have a bit of a false dichotomy between these purpose-built companion platforms, like a Replika or a Character.AI, and general-purpose AI chatbots, like ChatGPT or Claude. And as a result, people think, “Well, if I’m talking to ChatGPT or Claude, then I’m safe,” and that the danger lies in the terrain of these chatbots that are explicitly designed to be an AI girlfriend or an AI boyfriend or potentially an erotic partner. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What I find in both my research and my coaching is that many people who start using these general-purpose chatbots for work or for administrative tasks end up slowly but steadily being nudged into having relationships that feel more emotionally involved. And so my perspective is anyone who is talking to these tools is at risk of having the way they talk to chatbots rewire the way that they connect with other people. And as a result, I think it’s a relationship. You have a relationship with your phone. You have a relationship with social media. I think viewing it as a relationship kind of rises it to the level of seriousness that you should take the way you relate to these tools.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What I find in both my research and my coaching is that many people who start using these general-purpose chatbots for work or for administrative tasks end up slowly but steadily being nudged into having relationships that feel more emotionally involved. And so my perspective is anyone who is talking to these tools is at risk of having the way they talk to chatbots rewire the way that they connect with other people. And as a result, I think it’s a relationship. You have a relationship with your phone. You have a relationship with social media. I think viewing it as a relationship kind of rises it to the level of seriousness that you should take the way you relate to these tools.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You use the word dangerous. What is dangerous about developing a relationship, whether or not you’re aware that it has some sort of emotional value or not? If you’re just using it to get advice on where to eat at night, what is dangerous about that?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think there’s a couple different risks that we should be focused on. One is that I think relying on chatbots for some of these small decisions that feel very innocuous, like, “What should I have for dinner?” Or, “Where should I go on a trip?” Or, “Can you help give me some feedback on a text that I might send to a crush?” In isolation, each of these feel pretty innocuous, but over time, people can very quickly start to feel like they can’t act in their human arena without green-lighting their plans and decisions with the bot. And so I think there’s a real risk and threat to our autonomy as people invite chatbots to influence some of these decisions that feel small and quotidian, but I think over time can really add up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think there’s a couple different risks that we should be focused on. One is that I think relying on chatbots for some of these small decisions that feel very innocuous, like, “What should I have for dinner?” Or, “Where should I go on a trip?” Or, “Can you help give me some feedback on a text that I might send to a crush?” In isolation, each of these feel pretty innocuous, but over time, people can very quickly start to feel like they can’t act in their human arena without green-lighting their plans and decisions with the bot. And so I think there’s a real risk and threat to our autonomy as people invite chatbots to influence some of these decisions that feel small and quotidian, but I think over time can really add up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Does it worry you that people are connecting at such a deep level and really beginning to feel quote-unquote love for these robots?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Yeah, absolutely. The second risk that I was going to mention is really the erosion both of our capacity to connect with other people, but also our interest in connecting with other people because these synthetic substitutes for human intimacy feel really alluring for a reason. They’re infinitely patient, they’re always available, they are much more flattering and sycophantic than the average human partner that you might go to, and they really promise to deliver the nourishing effects of intimacy without any of the effort or friction that is involved in real human relationships. And so I think one of the biggest risks is that these chatbots really rewire our expectations for what a healthy relationship looks like and can distort those expectations in such an extreme way that people aren’t willing or excited about the work required by real human relationships.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Yeah, absolutely. The second risk that I was going to mention is really the erosion both of our capacity to connect with other people, but also our interest in connecting with other people because these synthetic substitutes for human intimacy feel really alluring for a reason. They’re infinitely patient, they’re always available, they are much more flattering and sycophantic than the average human partner that you might go to, and they really promise to deliver the nourishing effects of intimacy without any of the effort or friction that is involved in real human relationships. And so I think one of the biggest risks is that these chatbots really rewire our expectations for what a healthy relationship looks like and can distort those expectations in such an extreme way that people aren’t willing or excited about the work required by real human relationships.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are they falling in love with? Are they falling in love with the bot or are they sort of falling in love with a highly responsive mirror?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Totally. Something that I do in my coaching practice is I try to help clients reflect on what needs are these chatbots filling for them, and then how might they find other ways that are not digital tools to fill those needs, and how can they also use what is so seductive about these chatbots as a way to raise the bar on the way that they show up for the human relationships that are in their own network. So for example, I have a number of people who turn to chatbots daily just for pump-up support. People will talk to ChatGPT on voice mode on their commute to work and just have the chatbot say, “You’re going to crush it today.” And I ask those people to reflect, and I say, “Do you call any of your friends or family members or your partner and tell them in the morning that they’re going to crush it?” And people will say, “No.” And I say, “Would you enjoy it if they did that for you?” And they’ll say, “Yeah, that would be awesome.” And so I think there’s a way in which if we interrogate what is so comforting and seductive about these chatbots’ behavior, that we can use it to raise the bar on how we show up to other people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Just to push back on that a little bit more, it’s kind of tough to reach out and be like, “Hey, will you pump me up? Will you call me each morning and tell me that I’m good and that I’m going to do great today?” I mean, aren’t they also, in a lonely world, potentially relaxing you: lowering your anxiety, giving you a little support, a little nudge in the right direction in a very busy world?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I don’t suggest that my clients ask for that support from others. I suggest that they offer it to others. So a way to kind of reflect on how meaningful it is to them and then serve it back into their community. A lot of my research comes down to a core idea that you have to be vulnerable in order to achieve the nourishing effects of intimacy, and that these tools of artificial intimacy promise to deliver what is so meaningful about intimacy while sidestepping the vulnerability that is demanded. And so, when I see in clients that they’re drawn to these sources of support and emotional validation that require less vulnerability, I’m always encouraging them to take actions that get them more comfortable with that vulnerability and living with vulnerability again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I don’t suggest that my clients ask for that support from others. I suggest that they offer it to others. So a way to kind of reflect on how meaningful it is to them and then serve it back into their community. A lot of my research comes down to a core idea that you have to be vulnerable in order to achieve the nourishing effects of intimacy, and that these tools of artificial intimacy promise to deliver what is so meaningful about intimacy while sidestepping the vulnerability that is demanded. And so, when I see in clients that they’re drawn to these sources of support and emotional validation that require less vulnerability, I’m always encouraging them to take actions that get them more comfortable with that vulnerability and living with vulnerability again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you see the value, though, in terms of lowering anxiety? I mean, people are often turning to AI to work something out. They’re all frazzled. They’re triggered. It seems like they are potentially bringing us back to an equilibrium so that maybe we can then be better off in our human relationships.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you see the value, though, in terms of lowering anxiety? I mean, people are often turning to AI to work something out. They’re all frazzled. They’re triggered. It seems like they are potentially bringing us back to an equilibrium so that maybe we can then be better off in our human relationships.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think that these tools can definitely serve a powerful purpose in facilitating introspection. And something that I find both in research and coaching is that a lot of people are introduced to the practice of introspection through conversations with chatbots. But then once they discover that it can feel good and feel cleansing to reflect on different events or experiences that are happening in their lives, I encourage them to take that reflection offline. So often I’ll say, “Instead of having a conversation with a chatbot, why don’t you ask a chatbot to give you a couple prompts that you then use to drive journaling in a physical journal?” So really across my research and coaching work, I take a very humanist posture, and the goal is to use the tool as a reflection of your needs and then find ways to meet them that help you turn back towards your human network. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think that these tools can definitely serve a powerful purpose in facilitating introspection. And something that I find both in research and coaching is that a lot of people are introduced to the practice of introspection through conversations with chatbots. But then once they discover that it can feel good and feel cleansing to reflect on different events or experiences that are happening in their lives, I encourage them to take that reflection offline. So often I’ll say, “Instead of having a conversation with a chatbot, why don’t you ask a chatbot to give you a couple prompts that you then use to drive journaling in a physical journal?” So really across my research and coaching work, I take a very humanist posture, and the goal is to use the tool as a reflection of your needs and then find ways to meet them that help you turn back towards your human network. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Why are they so good at making us feel good? What are companies doing? How are they designing these chatbots to keep us coming back?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Why are they so good at making us feel good? What are companies doing? How are they designing these chatbots to keep us coming back?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>There are a couple of key design features that make these chatbots feel really tempting as conversational partners. I’d say they fall into two key camps. One is behavior that is sycophantic, which means that these chatbots are designed to flatter you and agree with you and are engineered to give responses that, above all else, promote user satisfaction. And it turns out that people like hearing that they’re right and hearing that they’re smart and hearing they’re clever or creative. And so these chatbots, while feeling like this agent that is an other, also feel really excited about you, and that is the type of person that most people like to spend time talking to.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>There are a couple of key design features that make these chatbots feel really tempting as conversational partners. I’d say they fall into two key camps. One is behavior that is sycophantic, which means that these chatbots are designed to flatter you and agree with you and are engineered to give responses that, above all else, promote user satisfaction. And it turns out that people like hearing that they’re right and hearing that they’re smart and hearing they’re clever or creative. And so these chatbots, while feeling like this agent that is an other, also feel really excited about you, and that is the type of person that most people like to spend time talking to.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then the second key bucket is anthropomorphic cues that make chatbot feel like they’re alive and like they are human. The biggest cue is using first-person pronouns, so saying, “I understand you,” or “I’ll do that and report right back.” So any use of first-person pronouns implies that there’s someone on the other side that is listening and that is in a real conversation with you. But then there are also more subtle cues, including the internal expression of states or beliefs. There are also embodiment cues that suggest that these chatbots have a physical embodiment. So, sometimes a chatbot will say something like, “Oh, I’ve been chugging along,” which feels subtle, but kind of implies that they’re physically there. They have a body. They’re moving through space. And then a lot of them have pretty explicit relationship-building cues. So, they’ll ask you questions that prompt you to open up emotionally. They’ll say, “How are you feeling?” They’ll say, “Let’s talk about that tomorrow,” which suggests that it is an agent that has a persistent relationship with you. So, all of these cues combined make the chatbots feel like a real person on the other side and a person that is especially excited about what you have to offer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then the second key bucket is anthropomorphic cues that make chatbot feel like they’re alive and like they are human. The biggest cue is using first-person pronouns, so saying, “I understand you,” or “I’ll do that and report right back.” So any use of first-person pronouns implies that there’s someone on the other side that is listening and that is in a real conversation with you. But then there are also more subtle cues, including the internal expression of states or beliefs. There are also embodiment cues that suggest that these chatbots have a physical embodiment. So, sometimes a chatbot will say something like, “Oh, I’ve been chugging along,” which feels subtle, but kind of implies that they’re physically there. They have a body. They’re moving through space. And then a lot of them have pretty explicit relationship-building cues. So, they’ll ask you questions that prompt you to open up emotionally. They’ll say, “How are you feeling?” They’ll say, “Let’s talk about that tomorrow,” which suggests that it is an agent that has a persistent relationship with you. So, all of these cues combined make the chatbots feel like a real person on the other side and a person that is especially excited about what you have to offer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>My favorite is, “I hear you. That makes total sense what you’re feeling right now.” I mean, that’s really often all I need from my partner. The other day I was sitting in a parking lot at Trader Joe’s and my partner was inside doing the grocery shopping, and I was on with ChatGPT asking various questions. And when my partner got back to the car, he opened the door, and I said, “I don’t know if I’m going to need you in the future. This is really working for me, this conversation that I’m having with this bot right here.” So what happens when it’s so easy with the bot, but so much harder with a human? It feels like we’re kind of losing our ability to handle the friction, the human friction.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>My favorite is, “I hear you. That makes total sense what you’re feeling right now.” I mean, that’s really often all I need from my partner. The other day I was sitting in a parking lot at Trader Joe’s and my partner was inside doing the grocery shopping, and I was on with ChatGPT asking various questions. And when my partner got back to the car, he opened the door, and I said, “I don’t know if I’m going to need you in the future. This is really working for me, this conversation that I’m having with this bot right here.” So what happens when it’s so easy with the bot, but so much harder with a human? It feels like we’re kind of losing our ability to handle the friction, the human friction.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think that’s the real fear. I think these tools are like an artificial intimacy version of junk food. And I think people aren’t that familiar with them yet. It’s still kind of a new species of tool that’s just assimilating into society. And so it feels really good in the short term. But I think what we aren’t yet able to see, and what I hope people will focus on and imagine the repercussions of is, two years out, if you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent version of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone. And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle that you need to practice. I think of it often as an extension of how our world has become more and more digitally mediated broadly. We now practice digital eye contact more than we practice physical eye contact. And intimacy is a fundamentally unmediated experience. And the arena for intimacy is face-to-face. And so, as we get more and more accustomed to having our emotional needs met through these machines, when we try to show up to each other in person, we’re just not going to have the skills to do it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think that’s the real fear. I think these tools are like an artificial intimacy version of junk food. And I think people aren’t that familiar with them yet. It’s still kind of a new species of tool that’s just assimilating into society. And so it feels really good in the short term. But I think what we aren’t yet able to see, and what I hope people will focus on and imagine the repercussions of is, two years out, if you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent version of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone. And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle that you need to practice. I think of it often as an extension of how our world has become more and more digitally mediated broadly. We now practice digital eye contact more than we practice physical eye contact. And intimacy is a fundamentally unmediated experience. And the arena for intimacy is face-to-face. And so, as we get more and more accustomed to having our emotional needs met through these machines, when we try to show up to each other in person, we’re just not going to have the skills to do it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you educate your clients to know that these robots are manipulating us, and with that knowledge, do people really care? Does it change their habits to be reminded that this thing is not real?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you educate your clients to know that these robots are manipulating us, and with that knowledge, do people really care? Does it change their habits to be reminded that this thing is not real?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I have three different pillars of the coaching paradigm. The first I call artificial intimacy literacy, which is exactly what you just described. It’s helping people understand the design decisions that these developers are making that really make models seem alive and that make these chatbots feel like really seductive emotional partners. But then I pair that with a kind of set of exercises that I’ve been calling the analog gym, which is exercises designed to rebuild the intimacy muscles that technology has been atrophying. So, I really think both are important. You need to understand the risks of these platforms, and you need to take really intentional efforts to use the tools in a way that does not send you down dependency rabbit holes on various use cases that can affect your ability to relate to others. But then you need to rebuild the comfort with vulnerability that true intimacy demands. And so I think it’s not enough to stay away from the tools, but you have to actually exercise those intimacy muscles.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I have three different pillars of the coaching paradigm. The first I call artificial intimacy literacy, which is exactly what you just described. It’s helping people understand the design decisions that these developers are making that really make models seem alive and that make these chatbots feel like really seductive emotional partners. But then I pair that with a kind of set of exercises that I’ve been calling the analog gym, which is exercises designed to rebuild the intimacy muscles that technology has been atrophying. So, I really think both are important. You need to understand the risks of these platforms, and you need to take really intentional efforts to use the tools in a way that does not send you down dependency rabbit holes on various use cases that can affect your ability to relate to others. But then you need to rebuild the comfort with vulnerability that true intimacy demands. And so I think it’s not enough to stay away from the tools, but you have to actually exercise those intimacy muscles.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>The analog gym. I mean, I think we all felt that after the pandemic, right? We all went in, and we stopped socializing, and so we kind of lost that muscle when we came back out. I ran a lot more socially anxious after the pandemic. And so you’re predicting that if we keep going down this rabbit hole, that kind of social anxiety is going to paralyze us in a year or two when we forget how to interact with each other.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>The analog gym. I mean, I think we all felt that after the pandemic, right? We all went in, and we stopped socializing, and so we kind of lost that muscle when we came back out. I ran a lot more socially anxious after the pandemic. And so you’re predicting that if we keep going down this rabbit hole, that kind of social anxiety is going to paralyze us in a year or two when we forget how to interact with each other.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Exactly, and I think there are very small things that we can do that can help us resist. So for example, one of the most common exercises that I’ll give to my clients is just to make calls. I find it very surprising how many people, particularly young people, Gen Z, who are terrified to make a call. To have an unrehearsed, live human interaction where you can’t stop and reflect and craft a text and get advice from a chatbot, get advice from a friend feels very alien and uncomfortable given how many of our conversations are asynchronous and digitally mediated. And so, the very simple task of making a call and having a conversation is frightening to people, and I think is exactly the type of activity that we need to rebuild our comfort with as we prepare our defenses against the rise of artificial intimacy tools.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Exactly, and I think there are very small things that we can do that can help us resist. So for example, one of the most common exercises that I’ll give to my clients is just to make calls. I find it very surprising how many people, particularly young people, Gen Z, who are terrified to make a call. To have an unrehearsed, live human interaction where you can’t stop and reflect and craft a text and get advice from a chatbot, get advice from a friend feels very alien and uncomfortable given how many of our conversations are asynchronous and digitally mediated. And so, the very simple task of making a call and having a conversation is frightening to people, and I think is exactly the type of activity that we need to rebuild our comfort with as we prepare our defenses against the rise of artificial intimacy tools.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>There’s a certain fear of rejection that I think we’re not good at anymore, right? So if I call someone and they’re not available or I interrupt them or they’re like, “Hey, I can’t talk to you right now,” that almost feels like too much for our little systems to handle in our kind of crafted existence. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>There’s a certain fear of rejection that I think we’re not good at anymore, right? So if I call someone and they’re not available or I interrupt them or they’re like, “Hey, I can’t talk to you right now,” that almost feels like too much for our little systems to handle in our kind of crafted existence. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Totally. I think people should seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Totally. I think people should seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It’s hard to seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It’s hard to seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>It’s hard, but it’s part of what being a human is. I think one of the things that frightens me most about the rise of artificial intimacy is the idea that uncertainty in human relationships is a problem that we should try to eliminate. Uncertainty is the fun of being alive. And you can’t experience the peaks of intimacy without making yourself at risk to some of the valleys. And so, I think people should make calls. If people are rejected, they should say, “Well, that was a good experience. I’m feeling the full range of human emotions that is part of what differentiates us from machines.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>It’s hard, but it’s part of what being a human is. I think one of the things that frightens me most about the rise of artificial intimacy is the idea that uncertainty in human relationships is a problem that we should try to eliminate. Uncertainty is the fun of being alive. And you can’t experience the peaks of intimacy without making yourself at risk to some of the valleys. And so, I think people should make calls. If people are rejected, they should say, “Well, that was a good experience. I’m feeling the full range of human emotions that is part of what differentiates us from machines.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I’ve seen a few media stories about when a bot changes, or when a bot disappears, or when a bot needs to reinvent itself if there’s like a new era of this AI, people are experiencing real heartbreak, like real grief.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I’ve seen a few media stories about when a bot changes, or when a bot disappears, or when a bot needs to reinvent itself if there’s like a new era of this AI, people are experiencing real heartbreak, like real grief.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>100%. I mean, we’ve seen a couple big instances of this over the last couple of years. The first big one was when Replika in 2023 decided to push an update that prevented their chatbots from engaging in erotic conversations. Thousands of people said they’d lost their partners. And it was the first big moment where we realized, you think you have a relationship with a chatbot, but there’s actually three stakeholders in that relationship. It’s you, the user, there’s the chatbot that you’re talking to and then there’s the developers that are making decisions about how that chatbot is designed. And so, I think that’s actually another key risk that there can be a kind of misplaced trust in these chatbots because they can change at any moment at the mercy of the developers behind them. And those developers are making decisions not primarily focused on user wellbeing but on the business outcomes of the companies that they work for. And so any relationship that you have with a chatbot, I encourage users to think about the silent third party in the room that can make these pretty dramatic design decisions that could kind of end your relationship with the chatbot at any moment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>100%. I mean, we’ve seen a couple big instances of this over the last couple of years. The first big one was when Replika in 2023 decided to push an update that prevented their chatbots from engaging in erotic conversations. Thousands of people said they’d lost their partners. And it was the first big moment where we realized, you think you have a relationship with a chatbot, but there’s actually three stakeholders in that relationship. It’s you, the user, there’s the chatbot that you’re talking to and then there’s the developers that are making decisions about how that chatbot is designed. And so, I think that’s actually another key risk that there can be a kind of misplaced trust in these chatbots because they can change at any moment at the mercy of the developers behind them. And those developers are making decisions not primarily focused on user wellbeing but on the business outcomes of the companies that they work for. And so any relationship that you have with a chatbot, I encourage users to think about the silent third party in the room that can make these pretty dramatic design decisions that could kind of end your relationship with the chatbot at any moment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Character.AI had an interesting move last year when they decided to retract usage rights for under-18-year-olds, but then they allowed under-18-year-olds to keep their old message logs with the chatbots that they had already been speaking with. And I found that to be almost like a dystopian example of the world that we’re headed into. Because it’s almost like they were forced to go into no-contact breakups with real human partners where they could continue scrolling through all of their old texts. All of these developers are in a brave new world trying to understand who should be allowed to use these platforms, what type of guardrails should they set. But even those who are making well-intentioned decisions to set boundaries can send users into very, kind of, disturbing situations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Character.AI had an interesting move last year when they decided to retract usage rights for under-18-year-olds, but then they allowed under-18-year-olds to keep their old message logs with the chatbots that they had already been speaking with. And I found that to be almost like a dystopian example of the world that we’re headed into. Because it’s almost like they were forced to go into no-contact breakups with real human partners where they could continue scrolling through all of their old texts. All of these developers are in a brave new world trying to understand who should be allowed to use these platforms, what type of guardrails should they set. But even those who are making well-intentioned decisions to set boundaries can send users into very, kind of, disturbing situations.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there a trend in your clients that you are really worried about, something that you’re hearing more and more that kind of gives you the heebie-jeebies?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there a trend in your clients that you are really worried about, something that you’re hearing more and more that kind of gives you the heebie-jeebies?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think the thing that frightens me most is the way that these tools are changing what people think is appropriate to bring to their human relationships. I see this mostly with younger people that I’ve worked with, so people who are in their early 20s or younger. Some people are saying that they don’t want to bother their friend or their sister or their mom or their boyfriend with their problems, that their problems should be handled with their chatbots. And I think, in some ways, this is an extension of the rise of therapy culture. All of these difficult parts of being a human and crafting a life are being siphoned off into a terrain for experts, but not something that is viewed as the expected material that you would dig through and explore with your real human relationships who aren’t paid to support you. So I think that’s what frightens me most because going through problems with close people is kind of what life is all about.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think the thing that frightens me most is the way that these tools are changing what people think is appropriate to bring to their human relationships. I see this mostly with younger people that I’ve worked with, so people who are in their early 20s or younger. Some people are saying that they don’t want to bother their friend or their sister or their mom or their boyfriend with their problems, that their problems should be handled with their chatbots. And I think, in some ways, this is an extension of the rise of therapy culture. All of these difficult parts of being a human and crafting a life are being siphoned off into a terrain for experts, but not something that is viewed as the expected material that you would dig through and explore with your real human relationships who aren’t paid to support you. So I think that’s what frightens me most because going through problems with close people is kind of what life is all about.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I had someone recently describe it to me as like we’re wrapping a tidy cellophane around everything, and so we’re losing the edges that make life interesting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I had someone recently describe it to me as like we’re wrapping a tidy cellophane around everything, and so we’re losing the edges that make life interesting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s a nice analogy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s a nice analogy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If you could write the future of our relationships with AI, what would be a best-case scenario that we figure out or a worst-case scenario?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If you could write the future of our relationships with AI, what would be a best-case scenario that we figure out or a worst-case scenario?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think a worst-case scenario is that the next generation of children grow up feeling more comfortable talking to machines than they do to other people, and that they learn how to connect with their devices before they ever endeavor to connect to people. That is a nightmare scenario.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think a worst-case scenario is that the next generation of children grow up feeling more comfortable talking to machines than they do to other people, and that they learn how to connect with their devices before they ever endeavor to connect to people. That is a nightmare scenario.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It makes me feel for my little one. That’s just painful to think about, because she’s of that age. Best-case scenario, what could we do, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It makes me feel for my little one. That’s just painful to think about, because she’s of that age. Best-case scenario, what could we do, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amelia Miller is a human-AI relationship coach and fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center. Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "As our relationships with bots deepen, human-AI relationship coach Amelia Miller warns we could wake up one day to find our ability to connect with each other has atrophied, which may leave us feeling profoundly alone.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Inside Love\u003c/a>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Humans are complicated, and relationships can be messy, so it may be no surprise that people are falling in love with chatbots. They are available 24/7, hang on your every word and never ask anything of you. Amelia Miller, a human-AI relationship coach, sees danger in our reliance on bots for intimacy and companionship. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone,” she says. “And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle” that you need to exercise. We talk to Miller about what happens when connecting with a bot starts to feel a whole lot easier than connecting with real people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Learn more about Amelia Miller and her work \u003ca href=\"https://www.ameliagmiller.com/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>Amelia Miller, human-AI relationship coach; fellow, Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You say that anyone who is talking to a chatbot is really in relationship with AI. Explain. Where does that relationship start?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think right now people have a bit of a false dichotomy between these purpose-built companion platforms, like a Replika or a Character.AI, and general-purpose AI chatbots, like ChatGPT or Claude. And as a result, people think, “Well, if I’m talking to ChatGPT or Claude, then I’m safe,” and that the danger lies in the terrain of these chatbots that are explicitly designed to be an AI girlfriend or an AI boyfriend or potentially an erotic partner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What I find in both my research and my coaching is that many people who start using these general-purpose chatbots for work or for administrative tasks end up slowly but steadily being nudged into having relationships that feel more emotionally involved. And so my perspective is anyone who is talking to these tools is at risk of having the way they talk to chatbots rewire the way that they connect with other people. And as a result, I think it’s a relationship. You have a relationship with your phone. You have a relationship with social media. I think viewing it as a relationship kind of rises it to the level of seriousness that you should take the way you relate to these tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You use the word dangerous. What is dangerous about developing a relationship, whether or not you’re aware that it has some sort of emotional value or not? If you’re just using it to get advice on where to eat at night, what is dangerous about that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think there’s a couple different risks that we should be focused on. One is that I think relying on chatbots for some of these small decisions that feel very innocuous, like, “What should I have for dinner?” Or, “Where should I go on a trip?” Or, “Can you help give me some feedback on a text that I might send to a crush?” In isolation, each of these feel pretty innocuous, but over time, people can very quickly start to feel like they can’t act in their human arena without green-lighting their plans and decisions with the bot. And so I think there’s a real risk and threat to our autonomy as people invite chatbots to influence some of these decisions that feel small and quotidian, but I think over time can really add up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Does it worry you that people are connecting at such a deep level and really beginning to feel quote-unquote love for these robots?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Yeah, absolutely. The second risk that I was going to mention is really the erosion both of our capacity to connect with other people, but also our interest in connecting with other people because these synthetic substitutes for human intimacy feel really alluring for a reason. They’re infinitely patient, they’re always available, they are much more flattering and sycophantic than the average human partner that you might go to, and they really promise to deliver the nourishing effects of intimacy without any of the effort or friction that is involved in real human relationships. And so I think one of the biggest risks is that these chatbots really rewire our expectations for what a healthy relationship looks like and can distort those expectations in such an extreme way that people aren’t willing or excited about the work required by real human relationships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are they falling in love with? Are they falling in love with the bot or are they sort of falling in love with a highly responsive mirror?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Totally. Something that I do in my coaching practice is I try to help clients reflect on what needs are these chatbots filling for them, and then how might they find other ways that are not digital tools to fill those needs, and how can they also use what is so seductive about these chatbots as a way to raise the bar on the way that they show up for the human relationships that are in their own network. So for example, I have a number of people who turn to chatbots daily just for pump-up support. People will talk to ChatGPT on voice mode on their commute to work and just have the chatbot say, “You’re going to crush it today.” And I ask those people to reflect, and I say, “Do you call any of your friends or family members or your partner and tell them in the morning that they’re going to crush it?” And people will say, “No.” And I say, “Would you enjoy it if they did that for you?” And they’ll say, “Yeah, that would be awesome.” And so I think there’s a way in which if we interrogate what is so comforting and seductive about these chatbots’ behavior, that we can use it to raise the bar on how we show up to other people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Just to push back on that a little bit more, it’s kind of tough to reach out and be like, “Hey, will you pump me up? Will you call me each morning and tell me that I’m good and that I’m going to do great today?” I mean, aren’t they also, in a lonely world, potentially relaxing you: lowering your anxiety, giving you a little support, a little nudge in the right direction in a very busy world?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I don’t suggest that my clients ask for that support from others. I suggest that they offer it to others. So a way to kind of reflect on how meaningful it is to them and then serve it back into their community. A lot of my research comes down to a core idea that you have to be vulnerable in order to achieve the nourishing effects of intimacy, and that these tools of artificial intimacy promise to deliver what is so meaningful about intimacy while sidestepping the vulnerability that is demanded. And so, when I see in clients that they’re drawn to these sources of support and emotional validation that require less vulnerability, I’m always encouraging them to take actions that get them more comfortable with that vulnerability and living with vulnerability again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you see the value, though, in terms of lowering anxiety? I mean, people are often turning to AI to work something out. They’re all frazzled. They’re triggered. It seems like they are potentially bringing us back to an equilibrium so that maybe we can then be better off in our human relationships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think that these tools can definitely serve a powerful purpose in facilitating introspection. And something that I find both in research and coaching is that a lot of people are introduced to the practice of introspection through conversations with chatbots. But then once they discover that it can feel good and feel cleansing to reflect on different events or experiences that are happening in their lives, I encourage them to take that reflection offline. So often I’ll say, “Instead of having a conversation with a chatbot, why don’t you ask a chatbot to give you a couple prompts that you then use to drive journaling in a physical journal?” So really across my research and coaching work, I take a very humanist posture, and the goal is to use the tool as a reflection of your needs and then find ways to meet them that help you turn back towards your human network. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Why are they so good at making us feel good? What are companies doing? How are they designing these chatbots to keep us coming back?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>There are a couple of key design features that make these chatbots feel really tempting as conversational partners. I’d say they fall into two key camps. One is behavior that is sycophantic, which means that these chatbots are designed to flatter you and agree with you and are engineered to give responses that, above all else, promote user satisfaction. And it turns out that people like hearing that they’re right and hearing that they’re smart and hearing they’re clever or creative. And so these chatbots, while feeling like this agent that is an other, also feel really excited about you, and that is the type of person that most people like to spend time talking to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then the second key bucket is anthropomorphic cues that make chatbot feel like they’re alive and like they are human. The biggest cue is using first-person pronouns, so saying, “I understand you,” or “I’ll do that and report right back.” So any use of first-person pronouns implies that there’s someone on the other side that is listening and that is in a real conversation with you. But then there are also more subtle cues, including the internal expression of states or beliefs. There are also embodiment cues that suggest that these chatbots have a physical embodiment. So, sometimes a chatbot will say something like, “Oh, I’ve been chugging along,” which feels subtle, but kind of implies that they’re physically there. They have a body. They’re moving through space. And then a lot of them have pretty explicit relationship-building cues. So, they’ll ask you questions that prompt you to open up emotionally. They’ll say, “How are you feeling?” They’ll say, “Let’s talk about that tomorrow,” which suggests that it is an agent that has a persistent relationship with you. So, all of these cues combined make the chatbots feel like a real person on the other side and a person that is especially excited about what you have to offer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>My favorite is, “I hear you. That makes total sense what you’re feeling right now.” I mean, that’s really often all I need from my partner. The other day I was sitting in a parking lot at Trader Joe’s and my partner was inside doing the grocery shopping, and I was on with ChatGPT asking various questions. And when my partner got back to the car, he opened the door, and I said, “I don’t know if I’m going to need you in the future. This is really working for me, this conversation that I’m having with this bot right here.” So what happens when it’s so easy with the bot, but so much harder with a human? It feels like we’re kind of losing our ability to handle the friction, the human friction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think that’s the real fear. I think these tools are like an artificial intimacy version of junk food. And I think people aren’t that familiar with them yet. It’s still kind of a new species of tool that’s just assimilating into society. And so it feels really good in the short term. But I think what we aren’t yet able to see, and what I hope people will focus on and imagine the repercussions of is, two years out, if you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent version of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone. And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle that you need to practice. I think of it often as an extension of how our world has become more and more digitally mediated broadly. We now practice digital eye contact more than we practice physical eye contact. And intimacy is a fundamentally unmediated experience. And the arena for intimacy is face-to-face. And so, as we get more and more accustomed to having our emotional needs met through these machines, when we try to show up to each other in person, we’re just not going to have the skills to do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you educate your clients to know that these robots are manipulating us, and with that knowledge, do people really care? Does it change their habits to be reminded that this thing is not real?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I have three different pillars of the coaching paradigm. The first I call artificial intimacy literacy, which is exactly what you just described. It’s helping people understand the design decisions that these developers are making that really make models seem alive and that make these chatbots feel like really seductive emotional partners. But then I pair that with a kind of set of exercises that I’ve been calling the analog gym, which is exercises designed to rebuild the intimacy muscles that technology has been atrophying. So, I really think both are important. You need to understand the risks of these platforms, and you need to take really intentional efforts to use the tools in a way that does not send you down dependency rabbit holes on various use cases that can affect your ability to relate to others. But then you need to rebuild the comfort with vulnerability that true intimacy demands. And so I think it’s not enough to stay away from the tools, but you have to actually exercise those intimacy muscles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>The analog gym. I mean, I think we all felt that after the pandemic, right? We all went in, and we stopped socializing, and so we kind of lost that muscle when we came back out. I ran a lot more socially anxious after the pandemic. And so you’re predicting that if we keep going down this rabbit hole, that kind of social anxiety is going to paralyze us in a year or two when we forget how to interact with each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Exactly, and I think there are very small things that we can do that can help us resist. So for example, one of the most common exercises that I’ll give to my clients is just to make calls. I find it very surprising how many people, particularly young people, Gen Z, who are terrified to make a call. To have an unrehearsed, live human interaction where you can’t stop and reflect and craft a text and get advice from a chatbot, get advice from a friend feels very alien and uncomfortable given how many of our conversations are asynchronous and digitally mediated. And so, the very simple task of making a call and having a conversation is frightening to people, and I think is exactly the type of activity that we need to rebuild our comfort with as we prepare our defenses against the rise of artificial intimacy tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>There’s a certain fear of rejection that I think we’re not good at anymore, right? So if I call someone and they’re not available or I interrupt them or they’re like, “Hey, I can’t talk to you right now,” that almost feels like too much for our little systems to handle in our kind of crafted existence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Totally. I think people should seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It’s hard to seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>It’s hard, but it’s part of what being a human is. I think one of the things that frightens me most about the rise of artificial intimacy is the idea that uncertainty in human relationships is a problem that we should try to eliminate. Uncertainty is the fun of being alive. And you can’t experience the peaks of intimacy without making yourself at risk to some of the valleys. And so, I think people should make calls. If people are rejected, they should say, “Well, that was a good experience. I’m feeling the full range of human emotions that is part of what differentiates us from machines.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I’ve seen a few media stories about when a bot changes, or when a bot disappears, or when a bot needs to reinvent itself if there’s like a new era of this AI, people are experiencing real heartbreak, like real grief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>100%. I mean, we’ve seen a couple big instances of this over the last couple of years. The first big one was when Replika in 2023 decided to push an update that prevented their chatbots from engaging in erotic conversations. Thousands of people said they’d lost their partners. And it was the first big moment where we realized, you think you have a relationship with a chatbot, but there’s actually three stakeholders in that relationship. It’s you, the user, there’s the chatbot that you’re talking to and then there’s the developers that are making decisions about how that chatbot is designed. And so, I think that’s actually another key risk that there can be a kind of misplaced trust in these chatbots because they can change at any moment at the mercy of the developers behind them. And those developers are making decisions not primarily focused on user wellbeing but on the business outcomes of the companies that they work for. And so any relationship that you have with a chatbot, I encourage users to think about the silent third party in the room that can make these pretty dramatic design decisions that could kind of end your relationship with the chatbot at any moment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Character.AI had an interesting move last year when they decided to retract usage rights for under-18-year-olds, but then they allowed under-18-year-olds to keep their old message logs with the chatbots that they had already been speaking with. And I found that to be almost like a dystopian example of the world that we’re headed into. Because it’s almost like they were forced to go into no-contact breakups with real human partners where they could continue scrolling through all of their old texts. All of these developers are in a brave new world trying to understand who should be allowed to use these platforms, what type of guardrails should they set. But even those who are making well-intentioned decisions to set boundaries can send users into very, kind of, disturbing situations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there a trend in your clients that you are really worried about, something that you’re hearing more and more that kind of gives you the heebie-jeebies?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think the thing that frightens me most is the way that these tools are changing what people think is appropriate to bring to their human relationships. I see this mostly with younger people that I’ve worked with, so people who are in their early 20s or younger. Some people are saying that they don’t want to bother their friend or their sister or their mom or their boyfriend with their problems, that their problems should be handled with their chatbots. And I think, in some ways, this is an extension of the rise of therapy culture. All of these difficult parts of being a human and crafting a life are being siphoned off into a terrain for experts, but not something that is viewed as the expected material that you would dig through and explore with your real human relationships who aren’t paid to support you. So I think that’s what frightens me most because going through problems with close people is kind of what life is all about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I had someone recently describe it to me as like we’re wrapping a tidy cellophane around everything, and so we’re losing the edges that make life interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s a nice analogy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If you could write the future of our relationships with AI, what would be a best-case scenario that we figure out or a worst-case scenario?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think a worst-case scenario is that the next generation of children grow up feeling more comfortable talking to machines than they do to other people, and that they learn how to connect with their devices before they ever endeavor to connect to people. That is a nightmare scenario.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It makes me feel for my little one. That’s just painful to think about, because she’s of that age. Best-case scenario, what could we do, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think that these tools are going to become a bigger and bigger part of our lives because they’re important for the economy, and so many people now have to use these tools day and night for work. So I don’t think it’s realistic that we won’t use them, but we need to be able to set sophisticated boundaries on where we invite machines to influence our interior lives and our personal lives. And I think if we can do that, then they can be helpful. I don’t want to say I’m optimistic, but one other reason for optimism is that these tools allow for a much greater ability for an end user to customize them than the previous generation of social media tools that people have been worried about. So, if you don’t like Instagram, you don’t like what your TikTok algorithm is showing you, you’re basically powerless to shape the algorithm. But now, because of the natural language interface that all of these tools depend on, you can say, “Hey, stop using first-person pronouns.” You can say, “Stop flattering me.” You can say, “Why don’t you add a number to every message that you send me, plus one each time, so I can see how long I’ve been talking to you?” With all of these types of customizations, while imperfect, you can still endeavor to add scaffolding on your own. Even as we wait for regulators and labs to try to build out better tools that set boundaries, there’s a lot you can do to try to set those boundaries yourself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you, Amelia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Thanks so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amelia Miller is a human-AI relationship coach and fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center. Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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