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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Picture this… You move to a cozy home in an idyllic neighborhood: fresh air and birdsong in the morning and gorgeous sunsets at night. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One day, you wake up to find an AI data center is being built right across the street. Your view of trees turns into piles of dirt, the songbird’s trill replaced by the hum of machinery. That’s the reality for many Atlanta metro area residents right now, facing an explosion of AI data center construction. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Morgan is joined by \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">reporters DorMiya Vance and Marlon Hyde from WABE in Atlanta\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Vance and Hyde recently looked into why so many companies are targeting the Atlanta suburbs for their builds. They’ll break down what this means for the infrastructure of local energy companies, how to contextualize this trend within the historical strain placed on predominately Black communities, and what can be done to prepare for “stranded assets” if the bubble bursts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1658905284\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/people/dormiya-vance/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DorMiya Vance\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Southside reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/people/marlon-hyde/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Marlon Hyde\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, business reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/data-centers-are-growing-faster-in-atlanta-than-anywhere-else-in-the-us/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers power our online lives. The business is growing faster in metro Atlanta than anywhere else in the US\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Marlon Hyde, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/south-atlanta-residents-brace-for-major-data-center-development/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">South Atlanta residents brace for major data center development \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— DorMiya Vance, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://arstechnica.com/ai/2026/01/microsoft-vows-to-cover-full-power-costs-for-energy-hungry-ai-data-centers/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Microsoft vows to cover full power costs for energy-hungry AI data centers\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Benj Edwards, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ars Technica\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://capitalbnews.org/data-center-south-carolina-black-community/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After a White Town Rejected a Data Center, Developers Targeted a Black Area\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Mahoney, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Capital B\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://capitalbnews.org/musk-xai-memphis-black-neighborhood-pollution/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Historic Black Community Takes On the World’s Richest Man Over Environmental Racism\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Mahoney, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Capital B\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://mediajustice.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/MediaJustice-Data-Centers-Report.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The People Say No: Resisting Data Centers in the South\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Media Justice\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2026/01/01/data-centers-prince-georges-county/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers spark a ‘fight for the soul’ of this mostly Black Maryland county\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lateshia Beachum, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Washington Post\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/jan/26/georgia-datacenters-ai-ban\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Georgia leads push to ban datacenters used to power America’s AI boom\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Timothy Pratt, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Guardian\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Up until recently, the neighborhood of Planters Ridge in Fayetteville, Georgia was just another cozy suburb outside of Atlanta.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was like real chill, real quiet, like one of those sort of like sleepy neighborhoods.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is DorMiya Vance. She’s a reporter at WABE in Atlanta, and she covers the city’s Southside and the suburbs around it, where Planters Ridge is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nothing too crazy, just nice woodland area, kind of cul-de-sac. But like, as soon as sort of the trees started coming down, the construction started, it just looked, it looked crazy. And like the way her house is set up, she can see all of it through her front window.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After reporting, DorMiya talked to this resident, Kecia Scott. Kecia had bought her house in 2024. She moved into what she thought was a sleepy neighborhood, not too far from the city, but just suburban enough for some peace and quiet. And Kecia spent a lot of time and money renovating her new home—a crisp, modern house with a floor-to-ceiling front window and views of the cozy cul-de-sac surrounded by woodlands. And then, less than a year after she moved in, the construction started.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it was like, torn down trees, like no more green land, just woods and tractors and machines. And then like her neighbors in front of her, they either moved or sold their house because of the construction. However, Miss Kecia, she didn’t. Like, she had just built her house. She wasn’t trying to leave despite, you know, everything that happened and despite her neighborhood being somewhat just infiltrated a little bit. It was just a lot, it was a lot. Last time I was up there, it was not great. She had like a more modern house, so like the whole front window was like just straight, you know, window floor to ceiling. So like she could just walk by and just see everything. She didn’t have any curtains either. It was tough, it tough to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kecia had unknowingly built her house just across the street from a QTS development site. QTS, for Quality Technology Services, a data center company that’s built more than 75 campuses across the country. The campus going up across the streets from Kecia’s house will consist of 16 buildings, spanning over 600 acres. That’s about 450 football fields.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These areas where some of these data centers are being built on the Southside where there is more land are sort of these more suburban residential areas and so obviously if I’m living in a nice neighborhood I don’t want to see construction for a data center right in front of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers like these have been the backbone of the digital world for the last 60 years. Streaming a Netflix show, gossiping on a Discord call, or uploading a photo dump on Instagram, all of that processing takes place in data centers—massive, windowless buildings on sprawling campuses filled with racks of networking equipment and storage systems and humming servers. They need a lot of electricity to run and a lot clean water to keep cool. Data centers aren’t actually new, but then the AI industry exploded. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You might remember this stat from last week’s episode: generating one 5-second AI video is like running a microwave for an hour. It adds up fast, which is why AI companies are scrambling to build more and more data centers to feed this insatiable demand for computing power. As big tech companies prioritize AI, They’re building data centers all over the country, especially in the South. And as we heard from DorMiya, it’s not like these centers are all being built in the middle of nowhere. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Take the Atlanta metro area. It’s known for being a foundational hub of the civil rights movement, for its booming music and film industry, and for its excellent food scene. Now, Atlanta is one of the fastest growing hubs for data center construction. Here, and in other cities throughout the South, developers are eyeing predominantly black suburbs for their new facilities, like in Planters Ridge, where Kecia built her house. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re heading to Atlanta to understand why the data center boom is happening here, what it means for the communities living alongside these facilities, and how residents are pushing back. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into it. You know how this goes, we’re opening a new tab: What’s happening with data centers in Atlanta? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For this deep dive, we teamed up with DorMiya Vance and her colleague Marlon Hyde. They’re two reporters from WABE in Atlanta, and they’ve been working on an ongoing series about the explosion of data centers around the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a lot of money involved, a lot of opportunity, however, my coverage kind of comes into play when it comes to, okay, cool, what are we going to do about the people that live here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DorMiya has been covering the ways that these centers are affecting the Southside communities that live around them. And she says the impacts start well before the facilities ever come online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The concerns around like noise and just like appearance, like, you know, the lights, construction, and having to build these large campuses for months on end.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Construction is more than just an eyesore. It’s loud, disruptive, and in some parts of the state, so close to homes that it’s actually affecting residents’ water supply. About an hour from Atlanta is a massive data center owned by Meta. Residents there have complained about construction sediment and light pollution making their homes nearly unlivable. In a video shared with a news outlet, More Perfect Union, one resident talked about some of the effects she’s seen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[More Perfect Union Video Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reporter Dan Lieberman: So you can see the sediment from the data center. Wow, and that’s just from the water coming out of your faucet.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mansfield Resident Beverly Morris: Yeah, and this is what’s in our pipes. I think eventually that affected our well water.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She told More Perfect Union that she’s had to replace a hot water heater, two washing machines, and a dishwasher because of the construction sediment. Her tap water is undrinkable. And then, once these data centers are built and running, residents face other issues too. A major one, noise. A few years ago, the TV station WUSA measured noise levels around an Amazon data center in Virginia. Here’s what a neighborhood without a data center sounded like [birds and wind sounds] and the neighborhood of Great Oak near a data center [machinery hum sound]. It’s that low-frequency hum that’s just enough so that you can’t quite tune it out, going on 24-7. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Prince William Times is a newspaper that covers a neighborhood of Great Oak, where that data center you just heard is located. They recently spoke to a resident who’s lived next to that noise for the last few years. Here’s what it sounds like in his backyard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Great Oak resident Rob Pixley]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If it were like a highway that never stops. This is continual. It is just inordinately loud. Some people have claimed, well, but ‘it’s just like a conversation’ that never stops, is in your bedroom and you can never turn off. So it’s not, you know, 80 decibels, but it’s constant.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there are the concerns about air quality. Around Elon Musk’s xAI data center in Memphis, residents have complained about respiratory issues and a rotten, sulfurous cabbage smell pervading the neighborhood. Here’s what a few residents told Time Magazine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Boxtown Resident Alexis Humphries]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It smell like gas now, and it didn’t smell like as before Elon came.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Memphis Community Against Pollution President KeShaun Pearson]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I literally can taste it, I can taste the difference now.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To be clear, the reason the xAI data center is causing so many air quality issues is because it’s running its own methane gas turbines. Musk brought them in because the Memphis power grid could only provide a third of xAI’s electricity needs. Now, the Environmental Protection Agency just ruled that Musk may have acted illegally by essentially building an unsanctioned in-house power plant. It’s not the industry standard to circumvent power grid limitations like that. That’s just an Elon Musk thing. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But like we talked about in our last episode, data centers need a lot of energy to function, and the xAI situation shows just how far some companies are willing to go to secure it. In Atlanta, the city’s power grid isn’t equipped to handle the scale of data center development planned in the area. Not yet, at least.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to Science for Georgia, a nonprofit, they estimate that there are about 100 data centers in use and about 42 planned.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s business reporter Marlon Hyde, who works with DorMiya at WABE.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In use and planned data centers are expected to draw about 14,000 megawatts of power from our grid. That’s enough to power about 6.3 million homes, according to the nonprofit, and Georgia has about 4.6 million housing units. So these data centers that are drawing more power than all of us combined in the state can use.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Georgia Public Service Commission before the year ended approved Georgia Power’s new plan, which is about a $16 billion plan to add about another 10,000 megawatts of new power generation to the grid to meet the rising demand for data centers. And especially for the data centers, the power has to be built now. They need new transmitters, they need new substations. So to do all of that, Georgia Power has to go to work right now. They have to start building out the grid right now so that those data centers can come in and it can support more data centers that are in the pipeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That brings us to another criticism of data centers, higher electricity bills for residents. All that power infrastructure Marlon mentioned, someone has to pay for it and critics worry that the costs could be passed on to residents of those areas. And as new data centers come online, all the extra energy demand is likely to raise rates. One study from Carnegie Mellon University found that by 2030, the average electricity bill in the highest demand markets could go up by 25%.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Very recently, people are paying more and more on their bills. We’re seeing higher bills, especially, I’m a resident as well. So if you’re already seeing bills increase and we’re not talking about data centers, now we’re talking about a huge entity that’s gonna continue to draw electricity 24 seven. And I’m expected to pay for it? That’s how a lot of residents feel. And that’s where state legislators are looking in the direction of. How do you hold these data centers accountable, these data center companies accountable for what they’re causing in the community, for what they’re building and how much they are paying? There was a proposal to make data centers pay their fair share on energy costs and it didn’t end up reaching the Senate floor for a vote.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have seen some recent evidence that big tech companies are responding to the pushback. In January, Microsoft actually vowed to foot the electricity costs for its data centers, including the cost of expanding the power grid. They’re calling it the community-first AI infrastructure plan. As part of the plan, the company will turn down any local property tax reductions and invest in AI training for local schools and libraries. Whether Microsoft follows through with the plan is yet to be seen. But the company has already developed new designs to reduce its environmental footprint in Georgia. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last year, Microsoft unveiled its second Fairwater AI Superfactory. This one’s in Atlanta. The facility uses a closed-loop system that doesn’t rely on drinking water for cooling. Microsoft says the system uses almost zero water, reducing the strain on local water supplies. But the Fairwater site is just one of hundreds of data center campuses in the area. Is it enough to make a difference? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Virginia and Texas are leading the data center boom. There’s no comprehensive database of data centers in Georgia. So it’s hard to assess the full scope of this industry. Science for Georgia estimates around a hundred operational data centers. The data center research company Baxtel estimates that there could be almost 200. But what we do know is that Georgia is one of the fastest growing states for data center development. Media company Axios reported that as of the end of last year, the state had plans for 285 more. So what’s driving Georgia’s data center boom? Where these facilities are being built isn’t accidental. It’s shaped by policies, incentives, and longstanding inequalities. We’re opening a whole new tab on that after this break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab: Why are there so many data centers in Georgia? The tech companies that are building these massive complexes around Atlanta aren’t actually based there. We’re getting into this with DorMiya and Marlon again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The data center boom here in Georgia has been largely supported by investments from major tech companies like Amazon Web Services, Meta, Microsoft, and Google. Google actually announced that they were investing $300 million to expand the data center campus and their footprint in Georgia. So we’ve also seen Amazon pledge billions into expanding its data center infrastructure here in George. So there’s a lot of money coming down south.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so here’s why so many tech companies are flocking to the Atlanta metro area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Georgia has land, it has power, and it has connectivity to the internet. On top of that, the state offers incentives. So looking at the liberal leaning economic advocacy group, Good Jobs First, Georgia is estimated to wave close to $300 million in sales and use taxes on data center equipment purchases in 2025. So it’s like, imagine you’re thinking of moving to another state, or, you know, even for example—we both have New York roots—imagine somebody said, ‘hey, if you’re willing to move back to New York, I’m gonna waive your first year of rent.’ You’re gonna move there pretty quickly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, let’s talk about some of these economic incentives at work here. Marlon, you’ve reported on this a lot. What else is at play?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Business speaks volumes. Economic development, they’re willing to give away incentives. You know, one of the first instances of reporting on data centers was Twitter known as X now, Elon Musk’s company, was applying for a $10 million tax abatement in Fulton County, a tax abate not having to pay taxes on sales and use taxes for the equipment that is being bought, mind you they’re buying millions of dollars worth of equipment. Everything we do, even right now as we’re talking, is passing through a data center, and you have to have up-to-date equipment to handle all of this processing power. So, for example, if Twitter wanted to get $200 million worth of the equipment, they would probably ask Fulton County, where their data center is, for some type of tax relief so that they don’t have to pay that money and that they could either save it and pocket it or push it forward in other ways to invest and grow their data center infrastructure. The money is here, the money is flowing and I do not see any of this investment slowing down anytime soon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers bring promises of jobs and economic growth, but Marlon, based on your reporting, are those jobs permanent?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A majority of those jobs are not permanent. When I went to the data center that’s run by Georgia Tech, CODA in Tech Square, they had security. They had people throughout the building. But when you’re looking around, you’re not seeing 200-300 people ready and working on it. There were about 200 to 300 people involved in the actual building of it. But when it comes to the operations, you’re bringing only 20 to 30 jobs in and those are highly skilled jobs majority of the time. So, these companies are not employing hundreds of Georgians just for these data centers. It’s just, that’s not the reality.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also need to talk about where in Georgia these data centers are being built. As DorMiya has reported, the neighborhoods closest to these new developments are predominantly Black suburbs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we’re thinking about like Atlanta or Georgia and the areas that I reported on, you have to think about history. There’s certain areas that have been either redlined or certain barriers that may have been placed that were historically, systemically racist. And so there’s more Black people on the Southside that may have been pushed out. And there’s also more land, which, that land is cheaper. It’s unfortunate that that’s where the cheaper land is and that’s where the population is heavily dense, you know, people of color. From my reporting, like if I just think about the city of South Fulton, where it’s basically, you know almost 100% Black residents, and that is where data centers are coming. It goes back to sort of like, historical route and just land, like where is it located? If you’re heading north, it’s more dense. So yeah, those north Atlanta more white or more wealthy or whatever you want to name it. There’s no space.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing a similar trend around other data centers built in other states too. Developers are flocking to areas where land is cheap and there’s a lot of it. But as environmental justice advocates have pointed out, those areas tend to be Black and Latino communities. The smelly xAI data center in Memphis that residents say is ruining the air quality, that’s in Boxtown, which was founded by formerly enslaved people after the signing of the Emancipation Proclamation. To this day, Boxtown is still a predominantly Black neighborhood. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last year, residents of Jones County, Georgia, a majority white community, rejected the construction of a new data center complex. As Capital B News reported in January, the developers of that project are now trying to build it in a rural Black community in South Carolina. The community there has already been grappling with industrial pollution for generations. And in Prince George’s County in Maryland, another predominantly Black area, residents are pushing back against the development of another new data center. During a community meeting, residents confronted county officials over the history of pollution in the area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Speaker at Community Meeting] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m a three-year cancer survivor. I have been exposed to extreme environmental toxins in the PG County. PG County is the toilet of the state. Stop treating PG County as the toilet of the state. We deserve more. We deserve more.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The data center location trend is part of a larger history of environmental injustice, especially in Georgia. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from short film, Pine Packs a Punch] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The land has always been an important commodity in Georgia. In the 19th century, stately plantation homes spelled a way of life unique in a changing world.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, another news outlet, analyzed years of EPA and census data. They found that communities near toxic waste sites in Georgia had a larger percentage of Black residents and lower property values. And in the city of South Fulton, where many neighborhoods are near industrial facilities, residents have been complaining about chemical odors, soil contamination, and air quality issues. And residents have left out of the loop when it comes to new industrial developments. From the 1950s to the present day. Data centers are adding to the environmental burden there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Really just boils down to like, you know, systemic racism and segregation, like it’s a little bit of a history lesson.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So developers are flocking to these areas that have a lot of land, for cheap, and promising that data center complexes will bring economic benefits to the marginalized communities that already live there. As Marlon has pointed out, there is so much money flowing into the construction of these facilities, all driven by the expectation that the AI industry will continue its exponential growth. But what happens if that investment dries up? Let’s open one last tab. What happens to data centers if the AI bubble pops?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a question that researchers, professors, and data center developers are all asking themselves right now as well. There’s no answer right now. You could be potentially left with a stranded asset.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stranded assets are resources or infrastructure that are no longer valuable. They were built with a purpose, but can no longer be used and are now a financial liability. Think nuclear power plants that have been shut down or coal reserves that can’t be burned. There’s no economic value, but all of that stuff, that investment, it’s just sitting there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Regardless, that’s still gonna be a warehouse full of technology. You can do something with it, potentially, but it’s really up to who owns it, who’s developing it, and what are the plans for the future. There’s no real answer for what if this AI bubble pops and we’re left with, at this point, about 100 data centers that are no longer operable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a nationwide question, but our eyes are on Georgia, where it’s hitting right now. Marlin told me about this one project that’s supposed to be built out by 2037.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Forsyth Technology Campus, it is a $21 billion, let me say that one more time, $21 Billion, over 1,600 acre data center development in Monroe County. And it has the potential to become the single largest economic project in Middle Georgia. There is a desperate need for people that can build data centers because it’s already on the books. It’s planned, it’s ready to go. They need the people to build it. Now, back to your point, there’s not gonna be many permanent jobs that comes out of it afterwards. So we’re gonna have to continue to look at are data centers worth it? Is it worth it to continue building these structures? And for cities, municipalities, is it worth to attract these data centers here? Are we gonna be left with a stranded asset where it’s a warehouse full of servers and cables, but there’s no use for it anymore? What do you do there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s why we’re seeing so many more like moratoriums and pauses because like these counties and cities, they want to genuinely try to understand what is it, like, what are you doing here? Are we going to have to worry about this later? What regulations do we need to put in place so our residents aren’t fearful of what you’re doing? I’m just thinking about residents of South Fulton who kind of have this issue already kinda. You know, where they have abandoned warehouses and different things that have been basically stranded there. And they’re still trying to figure out what do we even do with this from years ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So whose responsibility is it to deal with these data centers if they’re no longer functional?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the end of the day, it’s an investment from these companies and the state that are creating these data centers. So it’s also their responsibility whether or not these data centers continue to operate into the future. And if they’re just gonna be sucking up resources and not giving back anything in terms of economic development, they’re actually worsening our environment. If that all continues to be true, then it goes back on those municipalities and those data center companies to figure out what to do next.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How are local communities responding to all of this construction? Like, are people getting more involved in local government?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">100%. There was recently, and this is around like Marlon’s reporting on DeKalb County and their moratorium, but they had a town hall and it was basically packed. It was overflowing with residents speaking out, basically like, we don’t want this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Residents are going to remain vocal. We are in Georgia, Atlanta, one of the hearts of the civil rights movement. People here feel connected to their local government. People here feel connected to the story and the history of Atlanta as we are a part of it at this current point in time. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DeKalb County voted to extend a moratorium, a pause on data centers being built, constructed to the summer, 2026, June of 2026. And that’s because their phones have been ringing off the hook, according to the County Commissioner. There’ve been non-stop calls, texts, emails about residents not wanting these data centers here. People showing up to community meetings, town halls, any type of forum where they can have their voice heard. People are showing up to let commissioners and the economic leaders know that they don’t want these data centers here. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And we understand that there is a need for data centers and for this infrastructure. But if you’re telling me that we need it, but it has to be built right next door to me and I have to hear it, I have be on the same power grid as it, I don’t want this around me. Go find somewhere else for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there anything that these data center operators or regulators can do to mitigate these risks if the construction of the centers is inevitable?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, they need to have meetings. They need to talk to city officials. The mayor of Palmetto, she had a meeting and like had work sessions with Microsoft because there’s a Microsoft data center in Palmetto, Georgia. She told me that she had sort of hands-on meetings with the folks from Microsoft so they can interact with residents saying like, hey, this is what we’re building, you know, showing them exactly what they’re going to get. And I think that there needs to be more of that, however, the missing piece is the developer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You probably won’t see the developer until like the county commission meeting where they’re trying to approve or rezone, you know, where that’s when they pop up but they need to be in the more like regular meetings, town halls. I think that that’s where they need to sort of meet the people because if you’re just going to come into our neighborhood and not even announce yourself, of course we’re going to feel away about it. Like you just want to come in here and not even introduce yourself like, hmm. So I think they just need to meet the people where they are and being that, hey, you know, AI is rising, the internet is here, we have to have these things. How can we work together so that we are getting both ends of the deal met basically.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you want people to know about the way that big tech is changing Atlanta?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lynn McKee, a professor at Georgia State University, he mentions that for places like Butts County that it’s fighting for more economic development, more tax revenue, data centers could be beneficial. Now the question becomes, what is the overall value? You know, we could see in the short-term, yes, while this warehouse is running, it’s going to be paying whatever share was determined through, you know, whatever deals and arrangements they’re making. But outside of that, what is the city giving up? You know, are we giving up land that could be used for, you know schools, hospitals, homes? Are residents getting burdened with higher energy bills with more instances of environmental pollution, sound noise pollution, things of that nature? Is it gonna be worth it in the long term to put our residents through that? If artificial intelligence is growing in importance, growing in use, you can only expect data centers to grow and for the infrastructure to continue to expand, to support it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Georgia could actually be the first to issue a statewide pause on data center construction. Just last week, at the end of January, Georgia state lawmakers introduced a bill proposing a statewide moratorium on all data center projects until March of 2027. This legislation isn’t a ban on data centers. It’s just buying time. Putting all of these new developments on hold will give local governments and municipalities time to figure out how to regulate data centers. And at the very least, it would give residents a break from all the construction. Okay, now let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick and Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Apple Maker Ala F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, It would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends too, or even your enemies, or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "Picture this… You move to a cozy home in an idyllic neighborhood: fresh air and birdsong in the morning and gorgeous sunsets at night. One day, you wake up to find an AI data center is being built right across the street. Your view of trees turns into piles of dirt, the songbird’s trill replaced by the hum of machinery. That’s the reality for many Atlanta metro area residents right now, facing an explosion of AI data center construction. In this episode, Morgan is joined by reporters DorMiya Vance and Marlon Hyde from WABE in Atlanta. Vance and Hyde recently looked into why so many companies are targeting the Atlanta suburbs for their builds. They’ll break down what this means for the infrastructure of local energy companies, how to contextualize this trend within the historical strain placed on predominately Black communities, and what can be done to prepare for “stranded assets” if the bubble bursts.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Picture this… You move to a cozy home in an idyllic neighborhood: fresh air and birdsong in the morning and gorgeous sunsets at night. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One day, you wake up to find an AI data center is being built right across the street. Your view of trees turns into piles of dirt, the songbird’s trill replaced by the hum of machinery. That’s the reality for many Atlanta metro area residents right now, facing an explosion of AI data center construction. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Morgan is joined by \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">reporters DorMiya Vance and Marlon Hyde from WABE in Atlanta\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Vance and Hyde recently looked into why so many companies are targeting the Atlanta suburbs for their builds. They’ll break down what this means for the infrastructure of local energy companies, how to contextualize this trend within the historical strain placed on predominately Black communities, and what can be done to prepare for “stranded assets” if the bubble bursts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1658905284\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/people/dormiya-vance/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DorMiya Vance\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Southside reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/people/marlon-hyde/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Marlon Hyde\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, business reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/data-centers-are-growing-faster-in-atlanta-than-anywhere-else-in-the-us/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers power our online lives. The business is growing faster in metro Atlanta than anywhere else in the US\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Marlon Hyde, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wabe.org/south-atlanta-residents-brace-for-major-data-center-development/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">South Atlanta residents brace for major data center development \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— DorMiya Vance, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WABE\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://arstechnica.com/ai/2026/01/microsoft-vows-to-cover-full-power-costs-for-energy-hungry-ai-data-centers/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Microsoft vows to cover full power costs for energy-hungry AI data centers\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Benj Edwards, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ars Technica\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://capitalbnews.org/data-center-south-carolina-black-community/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After a White Town Rejected a Data Center, Developers Targeted a Black Area\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Mahoney, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Capital B\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://capitalbnews.org/musk-xai-memphis-black-neighborhood-pollution/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Historic Black Community Takes On the World’s Richest Man Over Environmental Racism\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Adam Mahoney, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Capital B\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://mediajustice.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/MediaJustice-Data-Centers-Report.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The People Say No: Resisting Data Centers in the South\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Media Justice\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2026/01/01/data-centers-prince-georges-county/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers spark a ‘fight for the soul’ of this mostly Black Maryland county\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lateshia Beachum, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Washington Post\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/jan/26/georgia-datacenters-ai-ban\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Georgia leads push to ban datacenters used to power America’s AI boom\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Timothy Pratt, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Guardian\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Up until recently, the neighborhood of Planters Ridge in Fayetteville, Georgia was just another cozy suburb outside of Atlanta.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was like real chill, real quiet, like one of those sort of like sleepy neighborhoods.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is DorMiya Vance. She’s a reporter at WABE in Atlanta, and she covers the city’s Southside and the suburbs around it, where Planters Ridge is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nothing too crazy, just nice woodland area, kind of cul-de-sac. But like, as soon as sort of the trees started coming down, the construction started, it just looked, it looked crazy. And like the way her house is set up, she can see all of it through her front window.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After reporting, DorMiya talked to this resident, Kecia Scott. Kecia had bought her house in 2024. She moved into what she thought was a sleepy neighborhood, not too far from the city, but just suburban enough for some peace and quiet. And Kecia spent a lot of time and money renovating her new home—a crisp, modern house with a floor-to-ceiling front window and views of the cozy cul-de-sac surrounded by woodlands. And then, less than a year after she moved in, the construction started.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it was like, torn down trees, like no more green land, just woods and tractors and machines. And then like her neighbors in front of her, they either moved or sold their house because of the construction. However, Miss Kecia, she didn’t. Like, she had just built her house. She wasn’t trying to leave despite, you know, everything that happened and despite her neighborhood being somewhat just infiltrated a little bit. It was just a lot, it was a lot. Last time I was up there, it was not great. She had like a more modern house, so like the whole front window was like just straight, you know, window floor to ceiling. So like she could just walk by and just see everything. She didn’t have any curtains either. It was tough, it tough to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kecia had unknowingly built her house just across the street from a QTS development site. QTS, for Quality Technology Services, a data center company that’s built more than 75 campuses across the country. The campus going up across the streets from Kecia’s house will consist of 16 buildings, spanning over 600 acres. That’s about 450 football fields.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These areas where some of these data centers are being built on the Southside where there is more land are sort of these more suburban residential areas and so obviously if I’m living in a nice neighborhood I don’t want to see construction for a data center right in front of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers like these have been the backbone of the digital world for the last 60 years. Streaming a Netflix show, gossiping on a Discord call, or uploading a photo dump on Instagram, all of that processing takes place in data centers—massive, windowless buildings on sprawling campuses filled with racks of networking equipment and storage systems and humming servers. They need a lot of electricity to run and a lot clean water to keep cool. Data centers aren’t actually new, but then the AI industry exploded. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You might remember this stat from last week’s episode: generating one 5-second AI video is like running a microwave for an hour. It adds up fast, which is why AI companies are scrambling to build more and more data centers to feed this insatiable demand for computing power. As big tech companies prioritize AI, They’re building data centers all over the country, especially in the South. And as we heard from DorMiya, it’s not like these centers are all being built in the middle of nowhere. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Take the Atlanta metro area. It’s known for being a foundational hub of the civil rights movement, for its booming music and film industry, and for its excellent food scene. Now, Atlanta is one of the fastest growing hubs for data center construction. Here, and in other cities throughout the South, developers are eyeing predominantly black suburbs for their new facilities, like in Planters Ridge, where Kecia built her house. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re heading to Atlanta to understand why the data center boom is happening here, what it means for the communities living alongside these facilities, and how residents are pushing back. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into it. You know how this goes, we’re opening a new tab: What’s happening with data centers in Atlanta? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For this deep dive, we teamed up with DorMiya Vance and her colleague Marlon Hyde. They’re two reporters from WABE in Atlanta, and they’ve been working on an ongoing series about the explosion of data centers around the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a lot of money involved, a lot of opportunity, however, my coverage kind of comes into play when it comes to, okay, cool, what are we going to do about the people that live here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DorMiya has been covering the ways that these centers are affecting the Southside communities that live around them. And she says the impacts start well before the facilities ever come online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The concerns around like noise and just like appearance, like, you know, the lights, construction, and having to build these large campuses for months on end.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Construction is more than just an eyesore. It’s loud, disruptive, and in some parts of the state, so close to homes that it’s actually affecting residents’ water supply. About an hour from Atlanta is a massive data center owned by Meta. Residents there have complained about construction sediment and light pollution making their homes nearly unlivable. In a video shared with a news outlet, More Perfect Union, one resident talked about some of the effects she’s seen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[More Perfect Union Video Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reporter Dan Lieberman: So you can see the sediment from the data center. Wow, and that’s just from the water coming out of your faucet.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mansfield Resident Beverly Morris: Yeah, and this is what’s in our pipes. I think eventually that affected our well water.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She told More Perfect Union that she’s had to replace a hot water heater, two washing machines, and a dishwasher because of the construction sediment. Her tap water is undrinkable. And then, once these data centers are built and running, residents face other issues too. A major one, noise. A few years ago, the TV station WUSA measured noise levels around an Amazon data center in Virginia. Here’s what a neighborhood without a data center sounded like [birds and wind sounds] and the neighborhood of Great Oak near a data center [machinery hum sound]. It’s that low-frequency hum that’s just enough so that you can’t quite tune it out, going on 24-7. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Prince William Times is a newspaper that covers a neighborhood of Great Oak, where that data center you just heard is located. They recently spoke to a resident who’s lived next to that noise for the last few years. Here’s what it sounds like in his backyard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Great Oak resident Rob Pixley]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If it were like a highway that never stops. This is continual. It is just inordinately loud. Some people have claimed, well, but ‘it’s just like a conversation’ that never stops, is in your bedroom and you can never turn off. So it’s not, you know, 80 decibels, but it’s constant.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there are the concerns about air quality. Around Elon Musk’s xAI data center in Memphis, residents have complained about respiratory issues and a rotten, sulfurous cabbage smell pervading the neighborhood. Here’s what a few residents told Time Magazine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Boxtown Resident Alexis Humphries]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It smell like gas now, and it didn’t smell like as before Elon came.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Memphis Community Against Pollution President KeShaun Pearson]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I literally can taste it, I can taste the difference now.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To be clear, the reason the xAI data center is causing so many air quality issues is because it’s running its own methane gas turbines. Musk brought them in because the Memphis power grid could only provide a third of xAI’s electricity needs. Now, the Environmental Protection Agency just ruled that Musk may have acted illegally by essentially building an unsanctioned in-house power plant. It’s not the industry standard to circumvent power grid limitations like that. That’s just an Elon Musk thing. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But like we talked about in our last episode, data centers need a lot of energy to function, and the xAI situation shows just how far some companies are willing to go to secure it. In Atlanta, the city’s power grid isn’t equipped to handle the scale of data center development planned in the area. Not yet, at least.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to Science for Georgia, a nonprofit, they estimate that there are about 100 data centers in use and about 42 planned.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s business reporter Marlon Hyde, who works with DorMiya at WABE.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In use and planned data centers are expected to draw about 14,000 megawatts of power from our grid. That’s enough to power about 6.3 million homes, according to the nonprofit, and Georgia has about 4.6 million housing units. So these data centers that are drawing more power than all of us combined in the state can use.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Georgia Public Service Commission before the year ended approved Georgia Power’s new plan, which is about a $16 billion plan to add about another 10,000 megawatts of new power generation to the grid to meet the rising demand for data centers. And especially for the data centers, the power has to be built now. They need new transmitters, they need new substations. So to do all of that, Georgia Power has to go to work right now. They have to start building out the grid right now so that those data centers can come in and it can support more data centers that are in the pipeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That brings us to another criticism of data centers, higher electricity bills for residents. All that power infrastructure Marlon mentioned, someone has to pay for it and critics worry that the costs could be passed on to residents of those areas. And as new data centers come online, all the extra energy demand is likely to raise rates. One study from Carnegie Mellon University found that by 2030, the average electricity bill in the highest demand markets could go up by 25%.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Very recently, people are paying more and more on their bills. We’re seeing higher bills, especially, I’m a resident as well. So if you’re already seeing bills increase and we’re not talking about data centers, now we’re talking about a huge entity that’s gonna continue to draw electricity 24 seven. And I’m expected to pay for it? That’s how a lot of residents feel. And that’s where state legislators are looking in the direction of. How do you hold these data centers accountable, these data center companies accountable for what they’re causing in the community, for what they’re building and how much they are paying? There was a proposal to make data centers pay their fair share on energy costs and it didn’t end up reaching the Senate floor for a vote.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have seen some recent evidence that big tech companies are responding to the pushback. In January, Microsoft actually vowed to foot the electricity costs for its data centers, including the cost of expanding the power grid. They’re calling it the community-first AI infrastructure plan. As part of the plan, the company will turn down any local property tax reductions and invest in AI training for local schools and libraries. Whether Microsoft follows through with the plan is yet to be seen. But the company has already developed new designs to reduce its environmental footprint in Georgia. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last year, Microsoft unveiled its second Fairwater AI Superfactory. This one’s in Atlanta. The facility uses a closed-loop system that doesn’t rely on drinking water for cooling. Microsoft says the system uses almost zero water, reducing the strain on local water supplies. But the Fairwater site is just one of hundreds of data center campuses in the area. Is it enough to make a difference? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Virginia and Texas are leading the data center boom. There’s no comprehensive database of data centers in Georgia. So it’s hard to assess the full scope of this industry. Science for Georgia estimates around a hundred operational data centers. The data center research company Baxtel estimates that there could be almost 200. But what we do know is that Georgia is one of the fastest growing states for data center development. Media company Axios reported that as of the end of last year, the state had plans for 285 more. So what’s driving Georgia’s data center boom? Where these facilities are being built isn’t accidental. It’s shaped by policies, incentives, and longstanding inequalities. We’re opening a whole new tab on that after this break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab: Why are there so many data centers in Georgia? The tech companies that are building these massive complexes around Atlanta aren’t actually based there. We’re getting into this with DorMiya and Marlon again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The data center boom here in Georgia has been largely supported by investments from major tech companies like Amazon Web Services, Meta, Microsoft, and Google. Google actually announced that they were investing $300 million to expand the data center campus and their footprint in Georgia. So we’ve also seen Amazon pledge billions into expanding its data center infrastructure here in George. So there’s a lot of money coming down south.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so here’s why so many tech companies are flocking to the Atlanta metro area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Georgia has land, it has power, and it has connectivity to the internet. On top of that, the state offers incentives. So looking at the liberal leaning economic advocacy group, Good Jobs First, Georgia is estimated to wave close to $300 million in sales and use taxes on data center equipment purchases in 2025. So it’s like, imagine you’re thinking of moving to another state, or, you know, even for example—we both have New York roots—imagine somebody said, ‘hey, if you’re willing to move back to New York, I’m gonna waive your first year of rent.’ You’re gonna move there pretty quickly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, let’s talk about some of these economic incentives at work here. Marlon, you’ve reported on this a lot. What else is at play?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Business speaks volumes. Economic development, they’re willing to give away incentives. You know, one of the first instances of reporting on data centers was Twitter known as X now, Elon Musk’s company, was applying for a $10 million tax abatement in Fulton County, a tax abate not having to pay taxes on sales and use taxes for the equipment that is being bought, mind you they’re buying millions of dollars worth of equipment. Everything we do, even right now as we’re talking, is passing through a data center, and you have to have up-to-date equipment to handle all of this processing power. So, for example, if Twitter wanted to get $200 million worth of the equipment, they would probably ask Fulton County, where their data center is, for some type of tax relief so that they don’t have to pay that money and that they could either save it and pocket it or push it forward in other ways to invest and grow their data center infrastructure. The money is here, the money is flowing and I do not see any of this investment slowing down anytime soon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Data centers bring promises of jobs and economic growth, but Marlon, based on your reporting, are those jobs permanent?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A majority of those jobs are not permanent. When I went to the data center that’s run by Georgia Tech, CODA in Tech Square, they had security. They had people throughout the building. But when you’re looking around, you’re not seeing 200-300 people ready and working on it. There were about 200 to 300 people involved in the actual building of it. But when it comes to the operations, you’re bringing only 20 to 30 jobs in and those are highly skilled jobs majority of the time. So, these companies are not employing hundreds of Georgians just for these data centers. It’s just, that’s not the reality.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also need to talk about where in Georgia these data centers are being built. As DorMiya has reported, the neighborhoods closest to these new developments are predominantly Black suburbs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we’re thinking about like Atlanta or Georgia and the areas that I reported on, you have to think about history. There’s certain areas that have been either redlined or certain barriers that may have been placed that were historically, systemically racist. And so there’s more Black people on the Southside that may have been pushed out. And there’s also more land, which, that land is cheaper. It’s unfortunate that that’s where the cheaper land is and that’s where the population is heavily dense, you know, people of color. From my reporting, like if I just think about the city of South Fulton, where it’s basically, you know almost 100% Black residents, and that is where data centers are coming. It goes back to sort of like, historical route and just land, like where is it located? If you’re heading north, it’s more dense. So yeah, those north Atlanta more white or more wealthy or whatever you want to name it. There’s no space.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing a similar trend around other data centers built in other states too. Developers are flocking to areas where land is cheap and there’s a lot of it. But as environmental justice advocates have pointed out, those areas tend to be Black and Latino communities. The smelly xAI data center in Memphis that residents say is ruining the air quality, that’s in Boxtown, which was founded by formerly enslaved people after the signing of the Emancipation Proclamation. To this day, Boxtown is still a predominantly Black neighborhood. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last year, residents of Jones County, Georgia, a majority white community, rejected the construction of a new data center complex. As Capital B News reported in January, the developers of that project are now trying to build it in a rural Black community in South Carolina. The community there has already been grappling with industrial pollution for generations. And in Prince George’s County in Maryland, another predominantly Black area, residents are pushing back against the development of another new data center. During a community meeting, residents confronted county officials over the history of pollution in the area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Speaker at Community Meeting] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m a three-year cancer survivor. I have been exposed to extreme environmental toxins in the PG County. PG County is the toilet of the state. Stop treating PG County as the toilet of the state. We deserve more. We deserve more.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The data center location trend is part of a larger history of environmental injustice, especially in Georgia. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from short film, Pine Packs a Punch] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The land has always been an important commodity in Georgia. In the 19th century, stately plantation homes spelled a way of life unique in a changing world.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, another news outlet, analyzed years of EPA and census data. They found that communities near toxic waste sites in Georgia had a larger percentage of Black residents and lower property values. And in the city of South Fulton, where many neighborhoods are near industrial facilities, residents have been complaining about chemical odors, soil contamination, and air quality issues. And residents have left out of the loop when it comes to new industrial developments. From the 1950s to the present day. Data centers are adding to the environmental burden there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Really just boils down to like, you know, systemic racism and segregation, like it’s a little bit of a history lesson.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So developers are flocking to these areas that have a lot of land, for cheap, and promising that data center complexes will bring economic benefits to the marginalized communities that already live there. As Marlon has pointed out, there is so much money flowing into the construction of these facilities, all driven by the expectation that the AI industry will continue its exponential growth. But what happens if that investment dries up? Let’s open one last tab. What happens to data centers if the AI bubble pops?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a question that researchers, professors, and data center developers are all asking themselves right now as well. There’s no answer right now. You could be potentially left with a stranded asset.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stranded assets are resources or infrastructure that are no longer valuable. They were built with a purpose, but can no longer be used and are now a financial liability. Think nuclear power plants that have been shut down or coal reserves that can’t be burned. There’s no economic value, but all of that stuff, that investment, it’s just sitting there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Regardless, that’s still gonna be a warehouse full of technology. You can do something with it, potentially, but it’s really up to who owns it, who’s developing it, and what are the plans for the future. There’s no real answer for what if this AI bubble pops and we’re left with, at this point, about 100 data centers that are no longer operable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a nationwide question, but our eyes are on Georgia, where it’s hitting right now. Marlin told me about this one project that’s supposed to be built out by 2037.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Forsyth Technology Campus, it is a $21 billion, let me say that one more time, $21 Billion, over 1,600 acre data center development in Monroe County. And it has the potential to become the single largest economic project in Middle Georgia. There is a desperate need for people that can build data centers because it’s already on the books. It’s planned, it’s ready to go. They need the people to build it. Now, back to your point, there’s not gonna be many permanent jobs that comes out of it afterwards. So we’re gonna have to continue to look at are data centers worth it? Is it worth it to continue building these structures? And for cities, municipalities, is it worth to attract these data centers here? Are we gonna be left with a stranded asset where it’s a warehouse full of servers and cables, but there’s no use for it anymore? What do you do there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s why we’re seeing so many more like moratoriums and pauses because like these counties and cities, they want to genuinely try to understand what is it, like, what are you doing here? Are we going to have to worry about this later? What regulations do we need to put in place so our residents aren’t fearful of what you’re doing? I’m just thinking about residents of South Fulton who kind of have this issue already kinda. You know, where they have abandoned warehouses and different things that have been basically stranded there. And they’re still trying to figure out what do we even do with this from years ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So whose responsibility is it to deal with these data centers if they’re no longer functional?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the end of the day, it’s an investment from these companies and the state that are creating these data centers. So it’s also their responsibility whether or not these data centers continue to operate into the future. And if they’re just gonna be sucking up resources and not giving back anything in terms of economic development, they’re actually worsening our environment. If that all continues to be true, then it goes back on those municipalities and those data center companies to figure out what to do next.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How are local communities responding to all of this construction? Like, are people getting more involved in local government?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">100%. There was recently, and this is around like Marlon’s reporting on DeKalb County and their moratorium, but they had a town hall and it was basically packed. It was overflowing with residents speaking out, basically like, we don’t want this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Residents are going to remain vocal. We are in Georgia, Atlanta, one of the hearts of the civil rights movement. People here feel connected to their local government. People here feel connected to the story and the history of Atlanta as we are a part of it at this current point in time. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DeKalb County voted to extend a moratorium, a pause on data centers being built, constructed to the summer, 2026, June of 2026. And that’s because their phones have been ringing off the hook, according to the County Commissioner. There’ve been non-stop calls, texts, emails about residents not wanting these data centers here. People showing up to community meetings, town halls, any type of forum where they can have their voice heard. People are showing up to let commissioners and the economic leaders know that they don’t want these data centers here. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And we understand that there is a need for data centers and for this infrastructure. But if you’re telling me that we need it, but it has to be built right next door to me and I have to hear it, I have be on the same power grid as it, I don’t want this around me. Go find somewhere else for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there anything that these data center operators or regulators can do to mitigate these risks if the construction of the centers is inevitable?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>DorMiya Vance: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, they need to have meetings. They need to talk to city officials. The mayor of Palmetto, she had a meeting and like had work sessions with Microsoft because there’s a Microsoft data center in Palmetto, Georgia. She told me that she had sort of hands-on meetings with the folks from Microsoft so they can interact with residents saying like, hey, this is what we’re building, you know, showing them exactly what they’re going to get. And I think that there needs to be more of that, however, the missing piece is the developer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You probably won’t see the developer until like the county commission meeting where they’re trying to approve or rezone, you know, where that’s when they pop up but they need to be in the more like regular meetings, town halls. I think that that’s where they need to sort of meet the people because if you’re just going to come into our neighborhood and not even announce yourself, of course we’re going to feel away about it. Like you just want to come in here and not even introduce yourself like, hmm. So I think they just need to meet the people where they are and being that, hey, you know, AI is rising, the internet is here, we have to have these things. How can we work together so that we are getting both ends of the deal met basically.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you want people to know about the way that big tech is changing Atlanta?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlon Hyde: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lynn McKee, a professor at Georgia State University, he mentions that for places like Butts County that it’s fighting for more economic development, more tax revenue, data centers could be beneficial. Now the question becomes, what is the overall value? You know, we could see in the short-term, yes, while this warehouse is running, it’s going to be paying whatever share was determined through, you know, whatever deals and arrangements they’re making. But outside of that, what is the city giving up? You know, are we giving up land that could be used for, you know schools, hospitals, homes? Are residents getting burdened with higher energy bills with more instances of environmental pollution, sound noise pollution, things of that nature? Is it gonna be worth it in the long term to put our residents through that? If artificial intelligence is growing in importance, growing in use, you can only expect data centers to grow and for the infrastructure to continue to expand, to support it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Georgia could actually be the first to issue a statewide pause on data center construction. Just last week, at the end of January, Georgia state lawmakers introduced a bill proposing a statewide moratorium on all data center projects until March of 2027. This legislation isn’t a ban on data centers. It’s just buying time. Putting all of these new developments on hold will give local governments and municipalities time to figure out how to regulate data centers. And at the very least, it would give residents a break from all the construction. Okay, now let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick and Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Apple Maker Ala F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, It would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends too, or even your enemies, or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "the-real-cost-of-ai-slop",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How much does your own AI use matter? With all the warnings about AI’s adverse impact on the environment, it can be tough to understand what that means at the individual level. In this episode, Morgan breaks down the hidden costs of generative AI into something more relatable: microwave time. She’s joined by MIT Technology Review reporters Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, who spent months investigating how much energy and water AI systems actually use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they unpack how AI models are trained and which ones are more resource-intensive, what effect the expansion of AI data centers has on local energy grids and just how much electricity it takes when we ask AI to generate text, images and videos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3471727862\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/casey-crownhart/\">Casey Crownhart\u003c/a>, senior climate reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/james-odonnell/\">James O’Donnell\u003c/a>, senior AI reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/05/20/1116327/ai-energy-usage-climate-footprint-big-tech/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We did the math on AI’s energy footprint. Here’s the story you haven’t heard.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://huggingface.co/blog/sasha/ai-energy-score-v2\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Energy Score v2: Refreshed Leaderboard, now with Reasoning ?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>Sasha Luccioni and Boris Gamazaychikov, \u003ci>Hugging Face\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/11/06/1127579/ai-footprint/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop worrying about your AI footprint. Look at the big picture instead.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/report/763080/google-ai-gemini-water-energy-emissions-study\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Google says a typical AI text prompt only uses 5 drops of water — experts say that’s misleading\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Justine Calma, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You may have heard this one warning over and over recently. AI is bad for the environment. It’s using up all our clean water. It’s draining the power grids. It’s polluting our one precious world. But how? Let’s start with a video that fooled me a couple of months ago: bunnies on a trampoline. This video has like 250 million views on TikTok.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bouncing sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a nighttime video, so it’s pretty dark and grainy. It looks like it could be in some suburban backyard. We see six or seven curious rabbits hopping onto the edge of a trampoline. Three of them move bravely toward the center and test a few jumps. Suddenly, all of the bunnies are bouncing up and down. It’s absolutely delightful. I mean, it’s bunnies on a trampoline. The person who posted it said they caught this moment on their ring camera. But my delight was cut short when I realized that one of the bunnies disappeared midair. The entire video was AI generated. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to researchers, one five-second video, like this one, generated using one of top-of-the-line open source AI models, uses about 3.4 million joules. Joules are the standard unit to measure energy. I’ll say that again. One five-second video uses 3.4 million joules to generate. Now, what does that mean to the average person who probably doesn’t measure their day in joules? Well, MIT Technology Review published a report on AI energy use. For that report, Casey Crownhart, who covers the climate, and James O’Donnell, who covers AI, did the math to translate that energy usage into something accessible. Here’s Casey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing we really set out to do with this project was be able to answer that question for people who are using AI in their lives and wanna really understand what the energy footprint looks like. So we looked at a lot of things in our story. We also used distance on an e-bike, light bulbs, electric vehicles, but we found that the microwave was something that most people have experience with and it was units that sort of made sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As part of this project, Casey and James worked with researchers to figure out how much AI generation really costs in microwave time. So that video of the bunnies on the trampoline, let’s say that five second video cost 3.4 million joules. That’s the equivalent of running the microwave for about an hour. You can get 30 bags of popcorn out of that if you’re lucky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The video of the bunnies on the trampoline was just one of dozens of AI-generated videos that I happen to scroll by every day. There are the videos of cats playing the violin, the physically impossible firework shows that my older family members keep sending the group chat, the many totally inappropriate videos of deep fake celebrities, the Facebook slop bait of animals rescuing old people from natural disasters, the AI- generated influencers shilling drop shipped products. Like, I could go on forever. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The reality is that all of this content that’s being generated, seemingly 24-7, comes at a huge cost, energy-wise. Slop is literally draining our resources. And that’s not even accounting for the constant ChatGPT queries or the flood of image generation prompts every hour of every day, and that is only what we see produced by AI. There’s a lot going on in the backend that also takes up a ton of energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In our reporting, we found that, you know, those different use cases that can come with very different energy footprints. If you add it all up, ultimately, it can be significant. It’s probably a relatively small part of your total energy footprint, but it is definitely something that I think people are right to be thinking about in this new age.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Concern is growing about AI’s toll on the environment. And yet, AI companies would have you believe that their products are indispensable and that their impact is manageable. So, what’s the truth? How do we know what to believe? And what, if anything, should we do about it? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically-online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Casey and James spent six months crunching the numbers to give us some real world comparisons for the amount of energy it really takes every time you type up a prompt. This was actually more complicated than it seems. The companies that run the most popular models aren’t the most upfront about the numbers. So the stats that we do have are based on the AI companies that are a bit more open. Casey and James worked with researchers at the University of Michigan’s ML Energy Initiative as well as researchers at Hugging Face’s AI Energy Score Project. Hugging Face is a platform that allows users to share AI tools and data sets. With the help of the researchers, Casey and James were able to get under the hood of a pretty closed off industry, which they’ll break down for us today. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The explosion of AI use comes with many impacts, societal, economic, public health, and so none of them are equally distributed in terms of harm. But today, we’re just focusing on the environmental cost. And speaking of cost, let’s open our first tab. How much energy does a query cost? Let’s start with a little AI 101. When we talk about the environmental impact and energy use, where is all of this computing actually taking place? MIT Technology Review’s James O’Donnell broke it down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The computing is really taking place in buildings called data centers, which there’s about 3000 of them, uh, around the country. There’s even more as you go worldwide and really to visualize this, these are just like monolithic, huge, boring looking buildings that don’t have any windows or anything interesting on the outside and inside are just racks and racks of computers and chips and servers, crunching a lot of numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What we call artificial intelligence has existed in some form since the 1950s. But the technology that we call AI today is very different. There are many types that we now lump together under the AI umbrella, which all have different energy requirements. But for this deep dive, when we say AI, we’re referring to generative AI, specifically, the models that produce content based on a human entering a prompt. They include large language models, or LLMs, like ChatGPT and Claude and Gemini. When it comes to generative AI models, there are typically two different processes involved: training and inference. These also factor into the total energy use.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is what you do when you want to build an AI model from scratch, from nothing and you, you have a large language model that is only going to be as smart as the data that you feed it. So training is basically the phase where you’re taking massive amounts of data. Normally this is a lot of language and text, which could be everything from the internet, could be every book that’s ever been written, uh, regardless of if these companies have the legal right to access that data, but they’re putting a bunch of data into this AI model. And the AI model is basically learning how to create better and better guesses of the text that it outputs. So it’s learning to generate texts, to string words together, to string sentences together and paragraphs together that sound realistic and accurate. And it’s doing that by noticing patterns of what words go together in this large data set.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is sort of the number crunching of feeding all of that data into an AI model and at the end, it spits out this model that has learned millions and millions of parameters, we call them, basically like knobs on an AI model that help the model understand the connections between different words. And at the end, you have this model that can generate text.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A lot of electricity is used in the process of training that AI model. Years ago, that was like, when I say years ago, maybe two or three years ago that was the main concern of how much energy AI was using was really in that training phase. And what Casey and I discovered in our reporting is that that has changed really significantly. So most AI companies today are, you know, they’re planning for their energy budgets to be spent more on inference.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, what is inference?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Inference is every time you ask an AI model something, so every time you ask a question or have it generate an image or a video, anytime it actually does the thing of generating something that’s called inference. And so the individual amounts of energy that are used at the time of inference can be quite small or, or sort of big. Um, but it’s really the summation of all of that, that gives you kind of the energy footprint of a given AI model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The generated output also changes the energy usage. The more complicated the prompt, the more energy it uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in our reporting we looked at text, images, and video. So kind of really broadly, and again, it can still vary, even within kind of a text query, depending on how complicated your ask is. So are you asking something to rewrite the whole works of Shakespeare, but like, in pirate speak, or are you just asking for a suggestion for a recipe? The open source models that we looked at, we found that the smallest models, if you were kind of asking a sort of standard query, might use about 114 joules of electricity. That’s equivalent to roughly a 10th of a second in a microwave, so a very, very small amount of electricity. A larger text model and one of the largest text models we looked at would use a lot more, so more like 6,700 joules, that’s about eight seconds in a microwave. So again, fairly small numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, the bigger the model, the more energy it uses. AI models have parameters. Like James said earlier, these are basically the adjustable knobs that allow models to make a prediction. With more parameters, AI models are more likely to generate a better response and are better equipped to handle complex requests. So, asking a chat bot, “What year did Shakespeare write Hamlet?” Is generally a less complex request than, say, “Translate all of Hamlet into pirate speak.” The smallest model that Casey and James tested had eight billion parameters. The largest had 405 billion parameters. OpenAI is pretty hush-hush about their infrastructure, but some estimate that the company’s latest model, GPT-5, is somewhere up in the trillions. So, as models get bigger, they need to run on more chips, which needs more energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What was really surprising and what I think really stood out in our reporting was that videos, based on the models that we were looking at, used significantly more energy, so thousands of times more energy than some of the smallest text models. So one model that we looked at used about 3.4 million joules of energy. That’s about an hour of microwave time. So there’s a really wide range here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s another factor: reasoning models. Investors are all over these right now. Reasoning models are marketed as literal thinking machines that are able to break down complex problems into logical steps instead of just predicting the next answer based on the patterns it recognizes. They’re advertised to think like a human would and supposedly will become more energy efficient the smarter the model gets. One of the researchers that Casey and James worked with at Hugging Tree put this to the test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, a lot of people are excited about this idea of reasoning models. And so when this researcher studied these and figured out whether or not they’re energy efficient, she found that a lot these reasoning models can actually use 30 times more energy than a non-reasoning model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there’s the water usage. AI datacenters use massive quantities of water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something that has been a conversation and there’s still I think, to some extent, a lot of uncertainty about. But basically, data centers use water directly for a lot cooling systems. A lot of data centers are cooled with what’s called evaporative cooling. So, you know, water evaporates to cool down the equipment. There’s also sort of indirect water use, which is a little trickier to calculate, but there’s also water that’s used in power plants. And so if you kind of think, okay, the power plant is needed to power the data center. So the water used in the power plant, you can kind of attribute to AI as well. Oftentimes the water that is required in a data center has to be very, very high quality, very pure water because you’re dealing with very sensitive equipment. And so there is this big conversation about water. Google released estimates about its water use per query as well, but kind of to sum it up, there is a pretty major water requirement and we’re starting to see that as, again, data centers are being built in places, including those that are very water stressed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s what we do know about AI and energy consumption. This is the usage that can be measured, even if companies aren’t the most upfront about their numbers. But what about everything else? We’re opening a new tab, after this break. Welcome back, we’re opening a new tab. What AI energy use isn’t being measured? So we’ve talked about the front and most visible uses, energy usages, generating videos, generating lists, translating Shakespeare’s text into pirate speak, right. What’s happening in the background that’s also using up energy? Like, how many times do you have to run a microwave for those processes?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think it’s hard to know. Like since we’ve done this reporting, AI is being put into many parts of our online life and we don’t always have a lot of choice or visibility into how AI is being using used. So for example, Google famously, uh, went from just presenting you search results to then summarizing those search results with AI overviews. So now for the most part, people aren’t looking very far down that search page, they’re actually just relying on the AI overview. We would love to know how much energy is used by Google every time it creates an AI overview and the percentage of those searches that it uses overviews for, we weren’t able to get that information. Uh, Google wouldn’t share it with us. And so, you know, AI is being put into all these different parts of our online life. And I think we’ll look back on this as the sort of like simplest calculation of, of being able to estimate, you now, how much is used when you try and make a recipe or generate an image or something. But the truth is, as you point out, AI is sort of being put into everything and it’s going to be harder and harder to sort of track the footprint as that goes on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you elaborate on why this topic appears to be so divisive and so confusing for so many people having to confront their energy usage through AI?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. I have thoughts, but I’m sure Casey does too. So, you know, it’s not like asking ChatGPT a question is like, you know, polluting the earth as much as driving a 3000 mile road trip, right? Like ,we’re talking about small, relatively small numbers here, but it gets a lot of attention, I think, because public opinion for AI right now is just so abysmally low because so many people are skeptical of whether or not it’s really benefiting all of us. And I think the energy footprint is just kind of this glaring issue for people that say, like, what are we getting out of this technology, especially if it’s sort of draining us of resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think part of the interesting phenomenon is that AI has really like crashed onto the scene for the general public. It’s this whole kind of new thing that we’re all having to kind of reckon with, like what is this doing to our brains? What is this going to our grids? It’s I think it’s natural to question this like entirely new thing. Another thing that I think is really interesting is that, as James mentioned, this is becoming less so, but to this point, it’s kind of discreet and countable in a way that a lot of our other activity, especially online activity, isn’t. You can go out on and, you know, how many times am I messaging this thing? So I think that kind of has lended itself to the natural kind of like, well, how much does each one of these queries, what does that mean for energy?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google recently released data on the energy footprint of its AI model, Gemini, a couple of months after you guys put out your report. What did you make of that? Like, was it helpful? Can we trust those numbers? I guess wouldn’t they be incentivized to portray themselves as very energy friendly?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it would have been nice to get these when we were reporting, but as James mentioned earlier, these companies know better than anybody what their energy footprint is. So I think there’s such value in getting some of this data. And Google had a really good technical report that went through kind of in-depth, you know, here’s where the energy is coming from this much from, you know the AI chips, this much from other processes. But I think it’s really significant what wasn’t included in that report. And what wasn’t included in the report is any sort of information about, you know, the total queries that its Gemini model gets in a day. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google is able to point to this number and say, hey, look, this is such a small number. It’s in line with what we found for, kind of, our median text model. You know, something like a second or so in the microwave per query. But that’s, you know, for what Google says is an average or median query. You know, it’s not kind of giving us the full range, including, you now, different kind of queries that we know would take up a lot more energy. It doesn’t include image and video, which we know are more energy intensive. And ultimately we’re not able to, without that total number of, you not, how many times is this model being queried and giving responses a day? How many users, how many daily users? We don’t know the total footprint. We can only say, here’s this little number.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the energy grid. The type of energy matters, right? Like there are a lot of discussion on renewables versus fossil fuels. What might impact where that energy comes from when it comes to building data centers and maintaining them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is something that I really focused on in our reporting because as I think I put it in the piece, if we just had data centers that were hooked up to a bunch of solar panels and they ran when the sun is shining, oh, what a lovely world it would be, and I would be a lot less worried about all this. But the reality is that today, grids around the world are largely reliant on fossil fuels. So burning things like, you know, natural gas and coal to run the grid, keep the lights on. And one concern is what the grid will look like as energy demand from AI continues to rise.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today, we see that data centers are really concentrated on the East Coast, in places like Virginia, tends to be very natural gas heavy, reliant on coal. There are data centers that are on grids that have a lot more solar and hydropower and wind, and that means that the relative climate impact of data centers in those places can be lower than in the more fossil fuel-heavy places.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think there’s a concern that as a lot, a lot of data center come online really quickly and need more electricity added to the grid in order to run, what is being added to grid in in order support those? Right now, the overwhelming answer is natural gas. And so that means that a lot of these new data centers will come with a pretty significant climate footprint attached.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We may not know the exact amount of energy that the AI industry is actually using, but what we do know is that it’s a lot, and it is putting a strain on our already limited resources. Each individual query does cost something, and it adds up. Plus, there’s everything running in the background that we can’t measure. So what is each individual person responsible for? I mean, should we be worried about the future? Is there anything that we could actually do? Time for a new tab: does my AI footprint matter in the big picture? Luckily, Casey dove into this exact topic last year. She believes that policing individual AI usage isn’t as helpful in the grand scheme of things. Here’s why we should shift our focus, instead of putting the onus on each person to change their own behavior.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As we went through this reporting, I got a lot of questions and I had a lot of questions myself about, you know, what does this mean for me and my personal choices about AI? And again, kind of as somebody who spent a lot of time reporting on climate change, it really reminded me of the conversation around climate footprint. You know, what is my climate footprint? What should I personally do differently to help, kind of, address climate change? And what I’ve come to kind of understand through my reporting and believe is that climate change is this massive problem that goes beyond any single one of us. And there’s a really significant limit to how much our individual choices can address a global problem that is very systemic. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can compost all you want, but if only gas vehicles are available to you and that’s the only way you can get around in your community, there’s only so much you can do. And we now know that some fossil fuel funded PR campaigns helped to popularize this idea of carbon footprint to kind of shift the focus on to individuals and away from these big, powerful companies. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think that I see some parallels with AI today, you know, this attempt to kind of shift focus on, you now, well, are you using ChatGPT too many times in a day rather than what is the global impact and like, why aren’t these companies being more transparent about what the energy use of AI is on their scale. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think ultimately, you know, there are limits to this. Like if you’re making a million AI slop videos every single day, I think that’s an individual action that you could probably safely make a choice that would be better for energy use. But overall, I think we should more be using our limited time and energy in the day to push for more transparency. You know, ask for regulations around AI and what’s powering it, and just generally not be so hard on ourselves because we operate in this system where it’s increasingly hard to get away from AI. As we’ve talked about, even if you don’t choose to go onto, you know chatgpt.com, you’re often, you’re part of this AI ecosystem. So we need to be talking about what that overall system looks like and how we can change it rather than the limited power of individuals.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the biggest unanswered questions every time a data center is open is actually like, what’s the energy source going into that? And is it going to be, you know, powered with renewable sources or not? Is it just going to run 24 seven on natural gas? And so sometimes if you hyper focus on this question of your own individual footprint, it can kind of make you forget that actually there are decisions still to be made every time the data center goes up that will arguably have a bigger impact on the sort of net footprint, net emissions of it all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do we know about where the AI industry wants to take us in the future, near future, like three years from now? What do they need energy-wise or water-wise to get us there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI companies are planning for some pretty, uh, unprecedented levels of investment in, in data centers and, you know, to power all of those unprecedented levels of investment in power plants and nuclear energy and things like that. Um, I think where they want to go, uh, is to build AI models that are bigger first of all. To do that you need more and more chips and more and more power, and so there’s an incentive to just amass all of this energy and electricity. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then on the product side of it, I think these AI companies imagine that the world of AI in five years will not just be large language models that people type to and get an answer back, but that image generation and video generation and real time voice chats are kind of a part of our everyday lives. And so they’re planning for a lot more demand as well. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so you could think of this project from OpenAI and others called Stargate, which is basically a half a trillion dollars of investment into data centers that they want to pop up around the country. And I think the reason why they’re seeing success politically from this is that AI companies have framed AI as a question of national security, right? If the US wants to win this AI race against China, then the country that has the most energy is the country will create the best AI and the sort of you know, impedance to all of that is access to, to energy. And that’s why these companies have sort of made it their top priority.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and just to add to that, I mean, I think these big dreams about, you know, how big AI could get, it’s going to be a lot of electricity. So as of 2024, data centers used over 400 terawatt hours of electricity, about 1.5% of all electricity used around the world. By 2030, the International Energy Agency says that that could more than double reaching 945 terawatts. Sorry to use inscrutable units, but that’s about 3% of global electricity consumption.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is that in microwave hours? [\u003cem>Laughter\u003c/em>]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A whole lot of microwaves, so many microwaves. So I think that basically we’re seeing really significant, really fast shifts and fast growth in electricity, including in places like the US that have seen very flat electricity demand for over a decade. And so I think that this is all going to add up to really complicated effects and really complicated, kind of, effects for local communities where these data centers and where these power plants are gonna be used.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something I didn’t totally get before I learned more from Casey and before we started reporting on this. So data centers were doing a lot of stuff in the early 2000s, like, this is Netflix, social media, like, all sorts of streaming, but electricity going to those data centers stayed pretty flat, and it wasn’t until AI that you actually started to see a huge jump in the amount of electricity that data centers required.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most AI companies, or AI hype guys who are investing very heavily in AI companies will say something like, oh, AI can solve problems like climate change, so the energy usage is worth it. How much do you guys buy into that argument? Llike, does it hold any water?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s so much potential for all kinds of AI, again, beyond chatbots, in all kinds problems that are related to climate change, from materials discovery, finding new materials that could make better batteries or help us capture carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, superconductors that can move electricity around super efficiently. There’s also ways that AI could be used to help the grid run more efficiently. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s really interesting research in all of these areas that I’m following very closely. But at this point, it’s all early stage. It’s all research. And I think there’s great potential for AI to be a positive force for the climate. But I think it’s absolutely irresponsible for us to punt on all of this concerns about AI’s current energy use because of some potential. Because there’s always the chance that this doesn’t work. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think in any case, the progress could be significant, but it’s not gonna be a silver bullet. So I think we need to reckon very seriously with the current energy problems that we’re seeing now, rather than try to make some future promise that may never come true, build all this infrastructure that will be online for decades to come and could change our climate forever. Just doesn’t make sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you think the most misunderstood part of this whole energy AI use conversation is?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that there’s kind of a nuanced picture of just how important AI energy use is in context. So it is true that AI is probably a small part of your individual energy picture. And in fact, in terms of like the global energy use picture, it’s 3% in 2030. That doesn’t seem like very much. But that kind of change over such a short amount of time is going to be very significant for especially local grids where this is taking place. It will have significant impacts for climate change. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of build out will definitely not go unnoticed by the climate, but I think the biggest impacts here will be faced by local communities seeing data centers going up, local communities with new fossil fuel infrastructure going up. And so all at once, this is a small fraction of individual and even global energy use, and a very, very significant trend for the energy system of the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Looking toward the future is important, but the AI industry is changing residential communities right now in real time. The data center room promises to bring jobs and economic growth, but are AI companies following through on that? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Next week, we’re taking our deep dive to one of the fastest growing hubs for AI data centers, Atlanta. But for now, let’s close all of these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was edited by Chris Hambrick and produced by Chris Egusa, who’s our senior editor and also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager a\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">nd Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Apple Maker Ala F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nOkay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but… if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends too, or even your enemies, or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "How much does your own AI use matter? With all the warnings about AI’s adverse impact on the environment, it can be tough to understand what that means at the individual level. In this episode, Morgan breaks down the hidden costs of generative AI into something more relatable: microwave time. She’s joined by MIT Technology Review reporters Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, who spent months investigating how much energy and water AI systems actually use. Together, they unpack how AI models are trained and which ones are more resource-intensive, what effect the expansion of AI data centers has on local energy grids and just how much electricity it takes when we ask AI to generate text, images and videos.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How much does your own AI use matter? With all the warnings about AI’s adverse impact on the environment, it can be tough to understand what that means at the individual level. In this episode, Morgan breaks down the hidden costs of generative AI into something more relatable: microwave time. She’s joined by MIT Technology Review reporters Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, who spent months investigating how much energy and water AI systems actually use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they unpack how AI models are trained and which ones are more resource-intensive, what effect the expansion of AI data centers has on local energy grids and just how much electricity it takes when we ask AI to generate text, images and videos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3471727862\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/casey-crownhart/\">Casey Crownhart\u003c/a>, senior climate reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/james-odonnell/\">James O’Donnell\u003c/a>, senior AI reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/05/20/1116327/ai-energy-usage-climate-footprint-big-tech/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We did the math on AI’s energy footprint. Here’s the story you haven’t heard.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://huggingface.co/blog/sasha/ai-energy-score-v2\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Energy Score v2: Refreshed Leaderboard, now with Reasoning ?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>Sasha Luccioni and Boris Gamazaychikov, \u003ci>Hugging Face\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/11/06/1127579/ai-footprint/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop worrying about your AI footprint. Look at the big picture instead.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/report/763080/google-ai-gemini-water-energy-emissions-study\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Google says a typical AI text prompt only uses 5 drops of water — experts say that’s misleading\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Justine Calma, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You may have heard this one warning over and over recently. AI is bad for the environment. It’s using up all our clean water. It’s draining the power grids. It’s polluting our one precious world. But how? Let’s start with a video that fooled me a couple of months ago: bunnies on a trampoline. This video has like 250 million views on TikTok.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bouncing sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a nighttime video, so it’s pretty dark and grainy. It looks like it could be in some suburban backyard. We see six or seven curious rabbits hopping onto the edge of a trampoline. Three of them move bravely toward the center and test a few jumps. Suddenly, all of the bunnies are bouncing up and down. It’s absolutely delightful. I mean, it’s bunnies on a trampoline. The person who posted it said they caught this moment on their ring camera. But my delight was cut short when I realized that one of the bunnies disappeared midair. The entire video was AI generated. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to researchers, one five-second video, like this one, generated using one of top-of-the-line open source AI models, uses about 3.4 million joules. Joules are the standard unit to measure energy. I’ll say that again. One five-second video uses 3.4 million joules to generate. Now, what does that mean to the average person who probably doesn’t measure their day in joules? Well, MIT Technology Review published a report on AI energy use. For that report, Casey Crownhart, who covers the climate, and James O’Donnell, who covers AI, did the math to translate that energy usage into something accessible. Here’s Casey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing we really set out to do with this project was be able to answer that question for people who are using AI in their lives and wanna really understand what the energy footprint looks like. So we looked at a lot of things in our story. We also used distance on an e-bike, light bulbs, electric vehicles, but we found that the microwave was something that most people have experience with and it was units that sort of made sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As part of this project, Casey and James worked with researchers to figure out how much AI generation really costs in microwave time. So that video of the bunnies on the trampoline, let’s say that five second video cost 3.4 million joules. That’s the equivalent of running the microwave for about an hour. You can get 30 bags of popcorn out of that if you’re lucky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The video of the bunnies on the trampoline was just one of dozens of AI-generated videos that I happen to scroll by every day. There are the videos of cats playing the violin, the physically impossible firework shows that my older family members keep sending the group chat, the many totally inappropriate videos of deep fake celebrities, the Facebook slop bait of animals rescuing old people from natural disasters, the AI- generated influencers shilling drop shipped products. Like, I could go on forever. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The reality is that all of this content that’s being generated, seemingly 24-7, comes at a huge cost, energy-wise. Slop is literally draining our resources. And that’s not even accounting for the constant ChatGPT queries or the flood of image generation prompts every hour of every day, and that is only what we see produced by AI. There’s a lot going on in the backend that also takes up a ton of energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In our reporting, we found that, you know, those different use cases that can come with very different energy footprints. If you add it all up, ultimately, it can be significant. It’s probably a relatively small part of your total energy footprint, but it is definitely something that I think people are right to be thinking about in this new age.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Concern is growing about AI’s toll on the environment. And yet, AI companies would have you believe that their products are indispensable and that their impact is manageable. So, what’s the truth? How do we know what to believe? And what, if anything, should we do about it? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically-online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Casey and James spent six months crunching the numbers to give us some real world comparisons for the amount of energy it really takes every time you type up a prompt. This was actually more complicated than it seems. The companies that run the most popular models aren’t the most upfront about the numbers. So the stats that we do have are based on the AI companies that are a bit more open. Casey and James worked with researchers at the University of Michigan’s ML Energy Initiative as well as researchers at Hugging Face’s AI Energy Score Project. Hugging Face is a platform that allows users to share AI tools and data sets. With the help of the researchers, Casey and James were able to get under the hood of a pretty closed off industry, which they’ll break down for us today. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The explosion of AI use comes with many impacts, societal, economic, public health, and so none of them are equally distributed in terms of harm. But today, we’re just focusing on the environmental cost. And speaking of cost, let’s open our first tab. How much energy does a query cost? Let’s start with a little AI 101. When we talk about the environmental impact and energy use, where is all of this computing actually taking place? MIT Technology Review’s James O’Donnell broke it down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The computing is really taking place in buildings called data centers, which there’s about 3000 of them, uh, around the country. There’s even more as you go worldwide and really to visualize this, these are just like monolithic, huge, boring looking buildings that don’t have any windows or anything interesting on the outside and inside are just racks and racks of computers and chips and servers, crunching a lot of numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What we call artificial intelligence has existed in some form since the 1950s. But the technology that we call AI today is very different. There are many types that we now lump together under the AI umbrella, which all have different energy requirements. But for this deep dive, when we say AI, we’re referring to generative AI, specifically, the models that produce content based on a human entering a prompt. They include large language models, or LLMs, like ChatGPT and Claude and Gemini. When it comes to generative AI models, there are typically two different processes involved: training and inference. These also factor into the total energy use.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is what you do when you want to build an AI model from scratch, from nothing and you, you have a large language model that is only going to be as smart as the data that you feed it. So training is basically the phase where you’re taking massive amounts of data. Normally this is a lot of language and text, which could be everything from the internet, could be every book that’s ever been written, uh, regardless of if these companies have the legal right to access that data, but they’re putting a bunch of data into this AI model. And the AI model is basically learning how to create better and better guesses of the text that it outputs. So it’s learning to generate texts, to string words together, to string sentences together and paragraphs together that sound realistic and accurate. And it’s doing that by noticing patterns of what words go together in this large data set.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is sort of the number crunching of feeding all of that data into an AI model and at the end, it spits out this model that has learned millions and millions of parameters, we call them, basically like knobs on an AI model that help the model understand the connections between different words. And at the end, you have this model that can generate text.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A lot of electricity is used in the process of training that AI model. Years ago, that was like, when I say years ago, maybe two or three years ago that was the main concern of how much energy AI was using was really in that training phase. And what Casey and I discovered in our reporting is that that has changed really significantly. So most AI companies today are, you know, they’re planning for their energy budgets to be spent more on inference.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, what is inference?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Inference is every time you ask an AI model something, so every time you ask a question or have it generate an image or a video, anytime it actually does the thing of generating something that’s called inference. And so the individual amounts of energy that are used at the time of inference can be quite small or, or sort of big. Um, but it’s really the summation of all of that, that gives you kind of the energy footprint of a given AI model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The generated output also changes the energy usage. The more complicated the prompt, the more energy it uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in our reporting we looked at text, images, and video. So kind of really broadly, and again, it can still vary, even within kind of a text query, depending on how complicated your ask is. So are you asking something to rewrite the whole works of Shakespeare, but like, in pirate speak, or are you just asking for a suggestion for a recipe? The open source models that we looked at, we found that the smallest models, if you were kind of asking a sort of standard query, might use about 114 joules of electricity. That’s equivalent to roughly a 10th of a second in a microwave, so a very, very small amount of electricity. A larger text model and one of the largest text models we looked at would use a lot more, so more like 6,700 joules, that’s about eight seconds in a microwave. So again, fairly small numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, the bigger the model, the more energy it uses. AI models have parameters. Like James said earlier, these are basically the adjustable knobs that allow models to make a prediction. With more parameters, AI models are more likely to generate a better response and are better equipped to handle complex requests. So, asking a chat bot, “What year did Shakespeare write Hamlet?” Is generally a less complex request than, say, “Translate all of Hamlet into pirate speak.” The smallest model that Casey and James tested had eight billion parameters. The largest had 405 billion parameters. OpenAI is pretty hush-hush about their infrastructure, but some estimate that the company’s latest model, GPT-5, is somewhere up in the trillions. So, as models get bigger, they need to run on more chips, which needs more energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What was really surprising and what I think really stood out in our reporting was that videos, based on the models that we were looking at, used significantly more energy, so thousands of times more energy than some of the smallest text models. So one model that we looked at used about 3.4 million joules of energy. That’s about an hour of microwave time. So there’s a really wide range here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s another factor: reasoning models. Investors are all over these right now. Reasoning models are marketed as literal thinking machines that are able to break down complex problems into logical steps instead of just predicting the next answer based on the patterns it recognizes. They’re advertised to think like a human would and supposedly will become more energy efficient the smarter the model gets. One of the researchers that Casey and James worked with at Hugging Tree put this to the test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, a lot of people are excited about this idea of reasoning models. And so when this researcher studied these and figured out whether or not they’re energy efficient, she found that a lot these reasoning models can actually use 30 times more energy than a non-reasoning model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there’s the water usage. AI datacenters use massive quantities of water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something that has been a conversation and there’s still I think, to some extent, a lot of uncertainty about. But basically, data centers use water directly for a lot cooling systems. A lot of data centers are cooled with what’s called evaporative cooling. So, you know, water evaporates to cool down the equipment. There’s also sort of indirect water use, which is a little trickier to calculate, but there’s also water that’s used in power plants. And so if you kind of think, okay, the power plant is needed to power the data center. So the water used in the power plant, you can kind of attribute to AI as well. Oftentimes the water that is required in a data center has to be very, very high quality, very pure water because you’re dealing with very sensitive equipment. And so there is this big conversation about water. Google released estimates about its water use per query as well, but kind of to sum it up, there is a pretty major water requirement and we’re starting to see that as, again, data centers are being built in places, including those that are very water stressed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s what we do know about AI and energy consumption. This is the usage that can be measured, even if companies aren’t the most upfront about their numbers. But what about everything else? We’re opening a new tab, after this break. Welcome back, we’re opening a new tab. What AI energy use isn’t being measured? So we’ve talked about the front and most visible uses, energy usages, generating videos, generating lists, translating Shakespeare’s text into pirate speak, right. What’s happening in the background that’s also using up energy? Like, how many times do you have to run a microwave for those processes?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think it’s hard to know. Like since we’ve done this reporting, AI is being put into many parts of our online life and we don’t always have a lot of choice or visibility into how AI is being using used. So for example, Google famously, uh, went from just presenting you search results to then summarizing those search results with AI overviews. So now for the most part, people aren’t looking very far down that search page, they’re actually just relying on the AI overview. We would love to know how much energy is used by Google every time it creates an AI overview and the percentage of those searches that it uses overviews for, we weren’t able to get that information. Uh, Google wouldn’t share it with us. And so, you know, AI is being put into all these different parts of our online life. And I think we’ll look back on this as the sort of like simplest calculation of, of being able to estimate, you now, how much is used when you try and make a recipe or generate an image or something. But the truth is, as you point out, AI is sort of being put into everything and it’s going to be harder and harder to sort of track the footprint as that goes on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you elaborate on why this topic appears to be so divisive and so confusing for so many people having to confront their energy usage through AI?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. I have thoughts, but I’m sure Casey does too. So, you know, it’s not like asking ChatGPT a question is like, you know, polluting the earth as much as driving a 3000 mile road trip, right? Like ,we’re talking about small, relatively small numbers here, but it gets a lot of attention, I think, because public opinion for AI right now is just so abysmally low because so many people are skeptical of whether or not it’s really benefiting all of us. And I think the energy footprint is just kind of this glaring issue for people that say, like, what are we getting out of this technology, especially if it’s sort of draining us of resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think part of the interesting phenomenon is that AI has really like crashed onto the scene for the general public. It’s this whole kind of new thing that we’re all having to kind of reckon with, like what is this doing to our brains? What is this going to our grids? It’s I think it’s natural to question this like entirely new thing. Another thing that I think is really interesting is that, as James mentioned, this is becoming less so, but to this point, it’s kind of discreet and countable in a way that a lot of our other activity, especially online activity, isn’t. You can go out on and, you know, how many times am I messaging this thing? So I think that kind of has lended itself to the natural kind of like, well, how much does each one of these queries, what does that mean for energy?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google recently released data on the energy footprint of its AI model, Gemini, a couple of months after you guys put out your report. What did you make of that? Like, was it helpful? Can we trust those numbers? I guess wouldn’t they be incentivized to portray themselves as very energy friendly?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it would have been nice to get these when we were reporting, but as James mentioned earlier, these companies know better than anybody what their energy footprint is. So I think there’s such value in getting some of this data. And Google had a really good technical report that went through kind of in-depth, you know, here’s where the energy is coming from this much from, you know the AI chips, this much from other processes. But I think it’s really significant what wasn’t included in that report. And what wasn’t included in the report is any sort of information about, you know, the total queries that its Gemini model gets in a day. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google is able to point to this number and say, hey, look, this is such a small number. It’s in line with what we found for, kind of, our median text model. You know, something like a second or so in the microwave per query. But that’s, you know, for what Google says is an average or median query. You know, it’s not kind of giving us the full range, including, you now, different kind of queries that we know would take up a lot more energy. It doesn’t include image and video, which we know are more energy intensive. And ultimately we’re not able to, without that total number of, you not, how many times is this model being queried and giving responses a day? How many users, how many daily users? We don’t know the total footprint. We can only say, here’s this little number.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the energy grid. The type of energy matters, right? Like there are a lot of discussion on renewables versus fossil fuels. What might impact where that energy comes from when it comes to building data centers and maintaining them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is something that I really focused on in our reporting because as I think I put it in the piece, if we just had data centers that were hooked up to a bunch of solar panels and they ran when the sun is shining, oh, what a lovely world it would be, and I would be a lot less worried about all this. But the reality is that today, grids around the world are largely reliant on fossil fuels. So burning things like, you know, natural gas and coal to run the grid, keep the lights on. And one concern is what the grid will look like as energy demand from AI continues to rise.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today, we see that data centers are really concentrated on the East Coast, in places like Virginia, tends to be very natural gas heavy, reliant on coal. There are data centers that are on grids that have a lot more solar and hydropower and wind, and that means that the relative climate impact of data centers in those places can be lower than in the more fossil fuel-heavy places.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think there’s a concern that as a lot, a lot of data center come online really quickly and need more electricity added to the grid in order to run, what is being added to grid in in order support those? Right now, the overwhelming answer is natural gas. And so that means that a lot of these new data centers will come with a pretty significant climate footprint attached.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We may not know the exact amount of energy that the AI industry is actually using, but what we do know is that it’s a lot, and it is putting a strain on our already limited resources. Each individual query does cost something, and it adds up. Plus, there’s everything running in the background that we can’t measure. So what is each individual person responsible for? I mean, should we be worried about the future? Is there anything that we could actually do? Time for a new tab: does my AI footprint matter in the big picture? Luckily, Casey dove into this exact topic last year. She believes that policing individual AI usage isn’t as helpful in the grand scheme of things. Here’s why we should shift our focus, instead of putting the onus on each person to change their own behavior.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As we went through this reporting, I got a lot of questions and I had a lot of questions myself about, you know, what does this mean for me and my personal choices about AI? And again, kind of as somebody who spent a lot of time reporting on climate change, it really reminded me of the conversation around climate footprint. You know, what is my climate footprint? What should I personally do differently to help, kind of, address climate change? And what I’ve come to kind of understand through my reporting and believe is that climate change is this massive problem that goes beyond any single one of us. And there’s a really significant limit to how much our individual choices can address a global problem that is very systemic. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can compost all you want, but if only gas vehicles are available to you and that’s the only way you can get around in your community, there’s only so much you can do. And we now know that some fossil fuel funded PR campaigns helped to popularize this idea of carbon footprint to kind of shift the focus on to individuals and away from these big, powerful companies. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think that I see some parallels with AI today, you know, this attempt to kind of shift focus on, you now, well, are you using ChatGPT too many times in a day rather than what is the global impact and like, why aren’t these companies being more transparent about what the energy use of AI is on their scale. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think ultimately, you know, there are limits to this. Like if you’re making a million AI slop videos every single day, I think that’s an individual action that you could probably safely make a choice that would be better for energy use. But overall, I think we should more be using our limited time and energy in the day to push for more transparency. You know, ask for regulations around AI and what’s powering it, and just generally not be so hard on ourselves because we operate in this system where it’s increasingly hard to get away from AI. As we’ve talked about, even if you don’t choose to go onto, you know chatgpt.com, you’re often, you’re part of this AI ecosystem. So we need to be talking about what that overall system looks like and how we can change it rather than the limited power of individuals.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the biggest unanswered questions every time a data center is open is actually like, what’s the energy source going into that? And is it going to be, you know, powered with renewable sources or not? Is it just going to run 24 seven on natural gas? And so sometimes if you hyper focus on this question of your own individual footprint, it can kind of make you forget that actually there are decisions still to be made every time the data center goes up that will arguably have a bigger impact on the sort of net footprint, net emissions of it all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do we know about where the AI industry wants to take us in the future, near future, like three years from now? What do they need energy-wise or water-wise to get us there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI companies are planning for some pretty, uh, unprecedented levels of investment in, in data centers and, you know, to power all of those unprecedented levels of investment in power plants and nuclear energy and things like that. Um, I think where they want to go, uh, is to build AI models that are bigger first of all. To do that you need more and more chips and more and more power, and so there’s an incentive to just amass all of this energy and electricity. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then on the product side of it, I think these AI companies imagine that the world of AI in five years will not just be large language models that people type to and get an answer back, but that image generation and video generation and real time voice chats are kind of a part of our everyday lives. And so they’re planning for a lot more demand as well. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so you could think of this project from OpenAI and others called Stargate, which is basically a half a trillion dollars of investment into data centers that they want to pop up around the country. And I think the reason why they’re seeing success politically from this is that AI companies have framed AI as a question of national security, right? If the US wants to win this AI race against China, then the country that has the most energy is the country will create the best AI and the sort of you know, impedance to all of that is access to, to energy. And that’s why these companies have sort of made it their top priority.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and just to add to that, I mean, I think these big dreams about, you know, how big AI could get, it’s going to be a lot of electricity. So as of 2024, data centers used over 400 terawatt hours of electricity, about 1.5% of all electricity used around the world. By 2030, the International Energy Agency says that that could more than double reaching 945 terawatts. Sorry to use inscrutable units, but that’s about 3% of global electricity consumption.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is that in microwave hours? [\u003cem>Laughter\u003c/em>]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A whole lot of microwaves, so many microwaves. So I think that basically we’re seeing really significant, really fast shifts and fast growth in electricity, including in places like the US that have seen very flat electricity demand for over a decade. And so I think that this is all going to add up to really complicated effects and really complicated, kind of, effects for local communities where these data centers and where these power plants are gonna be used.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something I didn’t totally get before I learned more from Casey and before we started reporting on this. So data centers were doing a lot of stuff in the early 2000s, like, this is Netflix, social media, like, all sorts of streaming, but electricity going to those data centers stayed pretty flat, and it wasn’t until AI that you actually started to see a huge jump in the amount of electricity that data centers required.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most AI companies, or AI hype guys who are investing very heavily in AI companies will say something like, oh, AI can solve problems like climate change, so the energy usage is worth it. How much do you guys buy into that argument? Llike, does it hold any water?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s so much potential for all kinds of AI, again, beyond chatbots, in all kinds problems that are related to climate change, from materials discovery, finding new materials that could make better batteries or help us capture carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, superconductors that can move electricity around super efficiently. There’s also ways that AI could be used to help the grid run more efficiently. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s really interesting research in all of these areas that I’m following very closely. But at this point, it’s all early stage. It’s all research. And I think there’s great potential for AI to be a positive force for the climate. But I think it’s absolutely irresponsible for us to punt on all of this concerns about AI’s current energy use because of some potential. Because there’s always the chance that this doesn’t work. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think in any case, the progress could be significant, but it’s not gonna be a silver bullet. So I think we need to reckon very seriously with the current energy problems that we’re seeing now, rather than try to make some future promise that may never come true, build all this infrastructure that will be online for decades to come and could change our climate forever. Just doesn’t make sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you think the most misunderstood part of this whole energy AI use conversation is?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that there’s kind of a nuanced picture of just how important AI energy use is in context. So it is true that AI is probably a small part of your individual energy picture. And in fact, in terms of like the global energy use picture, it’s 3% in 2030. That doesn’t seem like very much. But that kind of change over such a short amount of time is going to be very significant for especially local grids where this is taking place. It will have significant impacts for climate change. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of build out will definitely not go unnoticed by the climate, but I think the biggest impacts here will be faced by local communities seeing data centers going up, local communities with new fossil fuel infrastructure going up. And so all at once, this is a small fraction of individual and even global energy use, and a very, very significant trend for the energy system of the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Looking toward the future is important, but the AI industry is changing residential communities right now in real time. The data center room promises to bring jobs and economic growth, but are AI companies following through on that? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Next week, we’re taking our deep dive to one of the fastest growing hubs for AI data centers, Atlanta. But for now, let’s close all of these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was edited by Chris Hambrick and produced by Chris Egusa, who’s our senior editor and also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager a\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">nd Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Apple Maker Ala F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nOkay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but… if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends too, or even your enemies, or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Police departments say automated license plate readers — or ALPRs — made by an Atlanta-based company called Flock Safety area powerful tool for solving crime. But residents and privacy advocates are increasingly concerned about the impacts on our privacy, as the Trump administration continues its federal immigration crackdown. In Santa Cruz, the city council voted 6-1 to end its contract with Flock, citing reports that the city’s data was accessed by out-of-state agencies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069705/santa-cruz-the-first-in-california-to-terminate-its-contract-with-flock-safety\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Santa Cruz the First in California to Terminate Its Contract With Flock Safety\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.mercurynews.com/2026/01/15/san-jose-police-federal-searches-license-plate-data-violation-state-law/?campaign=sjmnbreakingnews&utm_email=A4A5B403457285D525DA14E7D1&active=no&lctg=A4A5B403457285D525DA14E7D1\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">San Jose latest city to face questions whether federal authorities are accessing police license plate camera data\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5003726529\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Ericka Cruz-Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. Santa Cruz just became the first city in California to end its contract with Flock Safety, the company behind powerful license plate readers that police say help them solve crimes. But more and more people are raising alarm bells about the cost to our privacy after reports that data collected from these cameras had been shared with the feds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] We’re also all watching national democratic norms crumble and asking some really hard questions about this surveillance system that we’ve set up to protect ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:50] Concerns around federal law enforcement have reached a fever pitch after an ICE agent shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis last week. And in California sanctuary cities, many worry the powerful data gathered by these surveillance tools could end up in the wrong hands. Today, how Bay Area cities are weighing the cost and benefits of automated license plate readers. Rachael, I think I actually want to start with just having you kind of telling me about the time that you were living in SoCal and you got a ticket in the mail, a speeding ticket?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:01:41] It wasn’t a speeding ticket. I just want to correct the record there.It was a red light camera ticket because I failed to stop completely before making a right turn. This was technically a moving violation, so I’m not trying to relitigate here, Ericka, but I do want to talk about what came with the ticket in the mail. And this is 25 years ago. This computer-generated printout that included all the details of my car. License plate, make and model, I guess a shot of it moving through the intersection, and then a close-up of my face. So it was pretty incontrovertible. Who was at fault and what happened. Today, license plate readers can track a car, track the driver across cities and the country. Which makes the surveillance an awesome tool for crime fighting, but also for oppression, especially now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:53] Yeah, you’re basically describing 25 years ago what was sort of a basic function of automated license plate cameras, but now they’re just so much more sophisticated as you’ve just been describing. And in the Bay Area and across the US, probably the biggest company that’s been contracting these license plate camera is this company called Flock Safety out of Atlanta, right? Tell me a little bit more about Flock and why so many cities have contracts with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:03:26] So like you say, Flock Safety is based in Atlanta. It’s grown incredibly fast by selling what I would describe as a plug-and-play surveillance network. So we call them automated license plate readers, right, or ALPRs. But they capture so much more than just the license plate. Flock and its competitors in the industry use high-resolution, networked cameras powered by AI. So they log time and location of vehicles, make, model, color, roof racks, decals, dents. So you can get really granular in a way that you couldn’t with those old red light cameras. Law enforcement agencies, as you might expect, but also homeowners associations, business districts, they like Flock, too, because the cameras come with analytical tools that are really helpful, police departments say, to help solve crimes, especially car thefts and burglaries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:33] And I mean, there are a bunch of California cities with these automated license plate readers from Flock, right? Who are some of Flock’s biggest customers here in California?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:04:44] So I mentioned that it’s not just law enforcement, but also transit agencies, campus police, special districts, business districts, like the Chinatown business district in Oakland. More than 200 municipalities, so San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose, Berkeley, as well. And until recently, Santa Cruz was on that list, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:13] Right, and I want to talk about Santa Cruz for a little bit, because they just made some news this week for becoming what might be the first California city to actually end its contract with Flock. What happened in Santa Cruz?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:05:32] So Santa Cruz learned back in November that Flock had enabled a national search feature that could allow out-of-state agencies to access California data. What really sort of pushed their push to quit Flock over the edge was a recently formed grassroots group called Get the Flock Out. They laid out a case that included the finding that between June and October of 2025, state agencies accessed Santa Cruz camera data roughly 4,000 times on behalf of federal law enforcement. So that includes ICE. That raised alarm bells. So community members organized to make the case, and city leaders said they weren’t comfortable continuing until they could guarantee that the local data wasn’t being exposed beyond what residents were told.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mayor Fred Keeley \u003c/strong>[00:06:41] The council has, over the years, gotten more and more concerned about this, especially the last 12, 13 months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:06:49] Santa Cruz Mayor Fred Keeley will tell you that he has been nervous about mass surveillance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mayor Fred Keeley \u003c/strong>[00:06:57] I’m one of those sort of civil libertarians, you know, yes, I do have something to worry about even if I’m not behaving badly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:07:06] He basically said, even if the intent is local crime-fighting, the risk that this data could be used against Santa Cruz County residents is just too high.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mayor Fred Keeley \u003c/strong>[00:07:18] In our country, I think we always have to wrestle with the constitutional protections which we all have and efforts to chip away at those protections citizens have from their government. For us, the threat to our civil liberties was greater than any benefit we to get from the flawed product.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:07:49] They voted 6-1 in favor of terminating the contract.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:57] Santa Cruz isn’t the only place where license plate reader data has been leaked. In San Francisco, reporting from 404 Media and the San Francisco Standard showed that SFPD employees had searched local data for federal law enforcement investigations and also illegally shared city data with out-of-state cops. Now, as the Trump administration continues its immigration crackdown. Privacy advocates are even more worried.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:08:32] There are a growing number of cities in the Bay Area and across California that are hitting the pause button, saying, hey, let’s just reevaluate. There’s even one city, I believe it’s Eureka in Northern California, which has said, hey, we’re not going to enter into this contract because of everything we’re hearing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:53] How does Flock respond to these concerns?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:08:56] Flock says cities and counties and whoever. The client, the customer, controls who gets access, how long the data is stored, and the company does not share the data with the federal government or anybody else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Trevor Chandler \u003c/strong>[00:09:15] Every single city, every county, every individual agency gets to choose who they share with. And if they want to reduce that kind of risk, they can choose not to share.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:09:25] Trevor Chandler, Director of Public Affairs for Flock, explained to me that Flock’s technology allows the customer to set the controls, how long the data is held, what other law enforcement agencies can run searches on Santa Cruz’s data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Trevor Chandler \u003c/strong>[00:09:41] We are the most transparent tool that law enforcement uses, period. I challenge anyone to name a more transparent tool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:09:48] If Flock receives, say, a warrant from a federal agency, it directs those demands to the municipality involved. They argue the problem isn’t the technology, it’s how individual customers are governing the technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Trevor Chandler \u003c/strong>[00:10:04] And the reason that we’re having these, you know, important conversations about data sharing and privacy and public safety is because of that transparency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:14] Why are people still so worried about this data if cities who have these contracts have complete control over what happens to the data?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:10:23] If the door is held open to a bunch of agencies in California, you can see how easy it becomes for any individual in any of those agencies to search for and or share data with anybody, including somebody out of state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Hofer \u003c/strong>[00:10:40] And people are finally recognizing that there’s real world harm here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:10:44] Privacy advocate Brian Hofer of Secure Justice is suing two cities, Oakland and San Francisco, not Flock, arguing the problem isn’t just Flock’s technology, but the inability or the unwillingness of city officials and attorneys to closely monitor usage to ensure compliance with California’s privacy and sanctuary laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Hofer \u003c/strong>[00:11:11] It’s been extra frustrating in California where we hold ourselves out as a sanctuary state. And yet when it comes to data privacy, we have these practices that are putting people in harm’s way, clearly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:11:26] Any network is only as strong as its weakest link. If one agency misconfigures access or shares too broadly, that data can end up far beyond California. Separately, once data exists, it can be subpoenaed. Local laws don’t stop federal warrants. That’s the way our legal system works. But also we’re living in a world now where many federal law enforcement agencies aren’t even bothering with warrants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Hofer \u003c/strong>[00:11:59] We’re in a very different political moment than we’ve ever been before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:12:07] And there are still some several Bay Area cities that still have active contracts with Flock, right? Oakland just expanded its use of these cameras. What do you think this conversation around these automated license plate readers, what do you it says about this moment that we seem to find ourselves in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:12:31] It’s a wonderful window into the tension between safety and trust. Cities are under pressure to respond to crime. And hey, I’m a Bay Area resident. I want to know if law enforcement is going to follow up if there is an incident. And if technology helps, I feel the appeal of it. But we’re also all watching national democratic norms crumble. And asking some really hard questions about this surveillance system that we’ve set up to protect ourselves. Santa Cruz stepping away, and also Oakland doubling down. I think both examples demonstrate in a really neat package of headlines how many Californians are really deeply divided right now over this question. How much monitoring is too much?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:33] Rachael, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:13:35] Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Police departments say automated license plate readers — or ALPRs — made by an Atlanta-based company called Flock Safety area powerful tool for solving crime. But residents and privacy advocates are increasingly concerned about the impacts on our privacy, as the Trump administration continues its federal immigration crackdown. In Santa Cruz, the city council voted 6-1 to end its contract with Flock, citing reports that the city’s data was accessed by out-of-state agencies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069705/santa-cruz-the-first-in-california-to-terminate-its-contract-with-flock-safety\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Santa Cruz the First in California to Terminate Its Contract With Flock Safety\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.mercurynews.com/2026/01/15/san-jose-police-federal-searches-license-plate-data-violation-state-law/?campaign=sjmnbreakingnews&utm_email=A4A5B403457285D525DA14E7D1&active=no&lctg=A4A5B403457285D525DA14E7D1\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">San Jose latest city to face questions whether federal authorities are accessing police license plate camera data\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5003726529\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Ericka Cruz-Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. Santa Cruz just became the first city in California to end its contract with Flock Safety, the company behind powerful license plate readers that police say help them solve crimes. But more and more people are raising alarm bells about the cost to our privacy after reports that data collected from these cameras had been shared with the feds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] We’re also all watching national democratic norms crumble and asking some really hard questions about this surveillance system that we’ve set up to protect ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:50] Concerns around federal law enforcement have reached a fever pitch after an ICE agent shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis last week. And in California sanctuary cities, many worry the powerful data gathered by these surveillance tools could end up in the wrong hands. Today, how Bay Area cities are weighing the cost and benefits of automated license plate readers. Rachael, I think I actually want to start with just having you kind of telling me about the time that you were living in SoCal and you got a ticket in the mail, a speeding ticket?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:01:41] It wasn’t a speeding ticket. I just want to correct the record there.It was a red light camera ticket because I failed to stop completely before making a right turn. This was technically a moving violation, so I’m not trying to relitigate here, Ericka, but I do want to talk about what came with the ticket in the mail. And this is 25 years ago. This computer-generated printout that included all the details of my car. License plate, make and model, I guess a shot of it moving through the intersection, and then a close-up of my face. So it was pretty incontrovertible. Who was at fault and what happened. Today, license plate readers can track a car, track the driver across cities and the country. Which makes the surveillance an awesome tool for crime fighting, but also for oppression, especially now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:53] Yeah, you’re basically describing 25 years ago what was sort of a basic function of automated license plate cameras, but now they’re just so much more sophisticated as you’ve just been describing. And in the Bay Area and across the US, probably the biggest company that’s been contracting these license plate camera is this company called Flock Safety out of Atlanta, right? Tell me a little bit more about Flock and why so many cities have contracts with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:03:26] So like you say, Flock Safety is based in Atlanta. It’s grown incredibly fast by selling what I would describe as a plug-and-play surveillance network. So we call them automated license plate readers, right, or ALPRs. But they capture so much more than just the license plate. Flock and its competitors in the industry use high-resolution, networked cameras powered by AI. So they log time and location of vehicles, make, model, color, roof racks, decals, dents. So you can get really granular in a way that you couldn’t with those old red light cameras. Law enforcement agencies, as you might expect, but also homeowners associations, business districts, they like Flock, too, because the cameras come with analytical tools that are really helpful, police departments say, to help solve crimes, especially car thefts and burglaries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:33] And I mean, there are a bunch of California cities with these automated license plate readers from Flock, right? Who are some of Flock’s biggest customers here in California?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:04:44] So I mentioned that it’s not just law enforcement, but also transit agencies, campus police, special districts, business districts, like the Chinatown business district in Oakland. More than 200 municipalities, so San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose, Berkeley, as well. And until recently, Santa Cruz was on that list, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:13] Right, and I want to talk about Santa Cruz for a little bit, because they just made some news this week for becoming what might be the first California city to actually end its contract with Flock. What happened in Santa Cruz?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:05:32] So Santa Cruz learned back in November that Flock had enabled a national search feature that could allow out-of-state agencies to access California data. What really sort of pushed their push to quit Flock over the edge was a recently formed grassroots group called Get the Flock Out. They laid out a case that included the finding that between June and October of 2025, state agencies accessed Santa Cruz camera data roughly 4,000 times on behalf of federal law enforcement. So that includes ICE. That raised alarm bells. So community members organized to make the case, and city leaders said they weren’t comfortable continuing until they could guarantee that the local data wasn’t being exposed beyond what residents were told.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mayor Fred Keeley \u003c/strong>[00:06:41] The council has, over the years, gotten more and more concerned about this, especially the last 12, 13 months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:06:49] Santa Cruz Mayor Fred Keeley will tell you that he has been nervous about mass surveillance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mayor Fred Keeley \u003c/strong>[00:06:57] I’m one of those sort of civil libertarians, you know, yes, I do have something to worry about even if I’m not behaving badly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:07:06] He basically said, even if the intent is local crime-fighting, the risk that this data could be used against Santa Cruz County residents is just too high.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mayor Fred Keeley \u003c/strong>[00:07:18] In our country, I think we always have to wrestle with the constitutional protections which we all have and efforts to chip away at those protections citizens have from their government. For us, the threat to our civil liberties was greater than any benefit we to get from the flawed product.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:07:49] They voted 6-1 in favor of terminating the contract.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:57] Santa Cruz isn’t the only place where license plate reader data has been leaked. In San Francisco, reporting from 404 Media and the San Francisco Standard showed that SFPD employees had searched local data for federal law enforcement investigations and also illegally shared city data with out-of-state cops. Now, as the Trump administration continues its immigration crackdown. Privacy advocates are even more worried.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:08:32] There are a growing number of cities in the Bay Area and across California that are hitting the pause button, saying, hey, let’s just reevaluate. There’s even one city, I believe it’s Eureka in Northern California, which has said, hey, we’re not going to enter into this contract because of everything we’re hearing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:53] How does Flock respond to these concerns?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:08:56] Flock says cities and counties and whoever. The client, the customer, controls who gets access, how long the data is stored, and the company does not share the data with the federal government or anybody else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Trevor Chandler \u003c/strong>[00:09:15] Every single city, every county, every individual agency gets to choose who they share with. And if they want to reduce that kind of risk, they can choose not to share.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:09:25] Trevor Chandler, Director of Public Affairs for Flock, explained to me that Flock’s technology allows the customer to set the controls, how long the data is held, what other law enforcement agencies can run searches on Santa Cruz’s data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Trevor Chandler \u003c/strong>[00:09:41] We are the most transparent tool that law enforcement uses, period. I challenge anyone to name a more transparent tool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:09:48] If Flock receives, say, a warrant from a federal agency, it directs those demands to the municipality involved. They argue the problem isn’t the technology, it’s how individual customers are governing the technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Trevor Chandler \u003c/strong>[00:10:04] And the reason that we’re having these, you know, important conversations about data sharing and privacy and public safety is because of that transparency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:14] Why are people still so worried about this data if cities who have these contracts have complete control over what happens to the data?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:10:23] If the door is held open to a bunch of agencies in California, you can see how easy it becomes for any individual in any of those agencies to search for and or share data with anybody, including somebody out of state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Hofer \u003c/strong>[00:10:40] And people are finally recognizing that there’s real world harm here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:10:44] Privacy advocate Brian Hofer of Secure Justice is suing two cities, Oakland and San Francisco, not Flock, arguing the problem isn’t just Flock’s technology, but the inability or the unwillingness of city officials and attorneys to closely monitor usage to ensure compliance with California’s privacy and sanctuary laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Hofer \u003c/strong>[00:11:11] It’s been extra frustrating in California where we hold ourselves out as a sanctuary state. And yet when it comes to data privacy, we have these practices that are putting people in harm’s way, clearly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:11:26] Any network is only as strong as its weakest link. If one agency misconfigures access or shares too broadly, that data can end up far beyond California. Separately, once data exists, it can be subpoenaed. Local laws don’t stop federal warrants. That’s the way our legal system works. But also we’re living in a world now where many federal law enforcement agencies aren’t even bothering with warrants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Hofer \u003c/strong>[00:11:59] We’re in a very different political moment than we’ve ever been before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:12:07] And there are still some several Bay Area cities that still have active contracts with Flock, right? Oakland just expanded its use of these cameras. What do you think this conversation around these automated license plate readers, what do you it says about this moment that we seem to find ourselves in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:12:31] It’s a wonderful window into the tension between safety and trust. Cities are under pressure to respond to crime. And hey, I’m a Bay Area resident. I want to know if law enforcement is going to follow up if there is an incident. And if technology helps, I feel the appeal of it. But we’re also all watching national democratic norms crumble. And asking some really hard questions about this surveillance system that we’ve set up to protect ourselves. Santa Cruz stepping away, and also Oakland doubling down. I think both examples demonstrate in a really neat package of headlines how many Californians are really deeply divided right now over this question. How much monitoring is too much?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:33] Rachael, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Save or Scroll: OpenAI’s Head of Preparedness, Global RAM Shortage, AI Artists, and a Manosphere Antidote",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a holiday installment of Save or Scroll, Morgan and the Close All Tabs team get together to talk over the stories they can’t stop thinking about. From OpenAI’s concerning new job posting, to a major RAM shortage, AI artists on the come up, and an antidote to the Manosphere, they’ve got a lot to chew on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Save or Scroll is our series where we team up with guests for a rapid-fire roundup of internet trends that are filling our feeds right now. At the end of each segment, they’ll decide: is the post just for the group chat, or should we save it for a future episode?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC9668443018\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Morgan Sung, Host of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Egusa, Senior Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Maya Cueva, Producer of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Hambrick, Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/news/850537/sam-altman-openai-head-of-preparedness\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sam Altman is hiring someone to worry about the dangers of AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Terrence O’Brien, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/challenges-of-openai-head-of-preparedness-role-2025-12\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why OpenAI’s $555,000 Head of Preparedness Role May Be Hard to Fill\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Sarah E. Needleman, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Business Insider\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/12/28/nx-s1-5656190/ai-chips-memory-prices-ram\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Memory loss: As AI gobbles up chips, prices for devices may rise\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — John Ruwitch, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NPR\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.techradar.com/pro/why-is-ram-so-expensive-right-now-its-more-complicated-than-you-think\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why is RAM so expensive right now? It’s way more complicated than you think\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Wayne Williams, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TechRadar\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/dougmelville/2025/09/27/al-singer-xania-monet-just-charted-on-billboard-signed-3m-deal-is-this-the-future-of-music/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Singer Xania Monet Just Charted On Billboard, Signed $3 Million Deal. Is This The Future Of Music?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Doug Melville, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forbes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.billboard.com/lists/ai-artists-on-billboard-charts/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How Many AI Artists Have Debuted on Billboard’s Charts?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Xander Zellner, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Billboard\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/01/style/trump-zuckerberg-masculinity.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ‘Manosphere’? It’s Planet Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Joseph Bernstein, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSvjuMEkj0H/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D\">“2024 self interviewing my 2025 self”\u003c/a> — @seanjaye1988, Instagram Reel\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome back to Close All tabs. We’ve been on a break the last few weeks, refreshing, relaxing, touching grass. In my case, being back on the East Coast for the holidays, touching a lot of snow. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend here at Open. As many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives, except today we aren’t opening any tabs. That’s right, to kick off the new year, we’re back with another episode of Save or Scroll. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, what is Save or Scroll? This is a game we play every now and then on close all tabs. We do a lot of deep dives on the show, but sometimes I come across a story that’s fascinating and wild and I’m dying to talk about it with someone, but there isn’t necessarily enough to do an entire episode about it. Or I do a little digging and realize that there’s a lot more to the story and it’s definitely worth a deep dive. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a very special Save or Scroll because joining me is the rest of the close all tabs team. On today’s episode, we have senior editor Chris Egusa,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey there!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> producer Maya Cueva,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi, Morgan!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and editor Chris Hambrick.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hello!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So we have all been offline for the last few weeks, and today we’re gonna catch up with a few different tech and internet stories that may have slipped under the radar during the holiday season. And for this episode, each of the four of us has brought one story that we cannot stop thinking about, that’s haunted us throughout our entire holiday break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as a group, we’re gonna decide to Save or Scroll. If we scroll, that means we’ve talked about it, we’re moving on. If we decide to save, that means we’re bookmarking it and we might dive in deeper in a future episode. And based on the stories we brought today, we’re gonna make a few predictions for the new year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You guys ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ready. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m ready.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, Chris E, you’re up first. What did you bring us today?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So if you want to get paid $555,000 to stop the AI apocalypse, I have good news. Open AI is hiring for a new position: head of preparedness. So get excited.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a bit ominous.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re all launching your applications right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So on December 27th, we were treated to kind of a late Christmas present from Mr. Sam Altman, CEO of OpenAI, which side note, is actually within a walking distance of where we are recording right now at the KQED studios. But yeah, he posted on X that the company is hiring for a head of preparedness.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does this mean? You might ask? Here is a little bit of Sam’s post, he said, “We are hiring a head of preparedness. This is a critical role at an important time. Models are improving quickly and are now capable of many great things, but they’re also starting to present some real challenges. The potential impact of models on mental health was something we saw a preview of in 2025. We are also now seeing models get so good at computer security, they’re beginning to find critical vulnerabilities.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So he goes on to say that this person would be responsible for executing the company’s quote preparedness framework, uh, securing AI models for the release of biological capabilities, which, that definitely sounds ominous.Um, and at the end of the post, he warns that it will be a stressful job and that you’ll jump in immediately. So get those resumes ready. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh God. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can I ask a clarifying question?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Please.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Is this basically like they’re hiring someone to pull the plug…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …if it all goes bad?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Great question. And there’ve been some, some online jokes about that as well. Basically, this is a person who is directly responsible for preventing all of the risks posed by all of this ever advancing AI technology.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are calling it an impossible job because those risks are innumerable and impossible to really predict. Right? And like you mentioned Morgan, immediately, uh, there were jokes about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So some people posted a fake open AI job post from a few years ago that was called, uh, Kill Switch Engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is a couple years ago, people dug up this, this fake post. And, uh, in that post, this fake job post under expectations, it listed know how to unplug things, bonus points, if you can throw a bucket of water on the servers too, just in case. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ah. So, yeah, to your point, Morgan,you could like reduce this idea to someone\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> who just is gonna pull the plug if AI gets too powerful, tries to take over the world. Um, other people called this position chief, fall guy, or Chief Scapegoat Officer, which is very funny to me: the idea that like, they’re hiring one person who can absorb all \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">of the blame for whenever anything goes bad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, I’ll just mention a few things to note on this. Uh, it’s actually not a new position, even though it’s kind of being characterized as that OpenAI has had this position in the past. Um, and it actually has a preparedness team, but the people who occupied the position either kept moving into other departments or leaving the company entirely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s been vacant for a little while, and so they’re hiring a new one. Um, the other thing is that Altman has a history of making really big claims about AI’s power and potential. But critics point to the fact that many of these claims are often just hype. So I will turn it to you all. What do you think, is this a good thing that OpenAI is investing in preparedness or is it more AI doomer hype?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It just seems like right now when AI is getting more and OpenAI specifically is getting more criticized than ever, like they probably want someone for that position before, you know, the 15 or so lawsuits over ChatGPT related deaths happened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, exactly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. So I, I do feel like, okay, it is, you know, like it’s some foresight, you know, like in all seriousness. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually feel like a little bit more comfortable, um, if somebody is thinking about like how to prevent a disaster or mitigate it, or at least have some plan in place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, no, I don’t think it’s like doomsday, like I don’t think it’s over the top to think about, like, getting somebody in the position who could give us some steps to follow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s probably better than not having someone thinking \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> about it when you look at the alternative. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I think this is less of a kill switch engineer and more of a, uh, oh, how do we not get sued again, kind of, kind of position, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Does this make you feel more concerned that they are identifying these potentially huge, sort of like, world changing threats or do you see this as, okay, this is a marketing play, essentially?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I’m definitely terrified that they’re already identifying those positions. It almost seems like it’s both and right, because it seems like they’re doing that too, because they know something bad will happen. But also it seems like they’re trying to cover their bases and protect the company. So it’s hard to say that even if we had, if this position gets filled, is it actually gonna protect us? Who knows? Hard to say, so that’s fair.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I, I feel like I’m on the side of the marketing hype because mm-hmm. Who posts a job and then gets on X and they’re like, Hey, by the way, we’re doing this thing. Look at us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re so ahead of it. Right. We’re, you know, like, think kindly of us or think that we are, you know, thinking of you, the public, when it’s really like, you know, wanting a pat on the back. I feel like that’s….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. yeah,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> ….They’re drawing attention to like, you know, they’re doing good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It, it feels calculated for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Based on the story that you brought us on, OpenAI hiring the head of Preparedness, what is your prediction for this year, Chris E.?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so my prediction for 2026 is that we will not see a doomsday scenario with AI this year. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hopefully\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s my prediction. You know, I could be wrong, but instead I think that AI hype will actually start to peter out and we will see the first ripples of a sort of deflating bubble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, a lot of experts have already pointed out how shaky the actual business case is for AI companies. There’s very little actual return on all the investment, and yet we’ve staked this huge chunk of our economy on the idea that this technology will just keep growing and keep getting better and better. Um, so I think maybe the real head of preparedness should be figuring out how to save our economy when AI doesn’t keep improving.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oof. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Agreed\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s why they’ll get paid $555K a year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sign me up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, team, what do we think? Uh, open eyes, head of preparedness. The AI bubble popping. Do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll save it. I’ll keep an eye on it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I’m gonna also save it. I think this is important to keep an eye on. We don’t know what’s gonna happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think we should save it. Yeah. I think this is a very Close All Tabs, uh, kind of thing. It’s, I, we joke about how often we have to cover AI on the show, it’s like, oh my God, another AI story. But also each one brings a new horror and I think it is worth diving into.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> True.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A new flavor of horror.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. We’re saving OpenAI, uh, head of preparedness, and maybe the bubble popping. That’s a save. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I regret to inform you all that I also have an AI related story for you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh no!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so I am up next and, uh, buckle up. We’re gonna talk about the world RAM shortage, uh, and why I still can’t play Oblivion, Remastered. So if there are any electronic devices on your wishlist for this year, buy them now. Buy them right now because I bought a Steam Deck on Black Friday, after agonizing over it for literally years because I can’t make decisions about big purchases very easily. So I have barely been outside during my break. I have developed a callous on my thumb from playing Hades II. I’m having a great time, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Steam Deck annual winter seal rolls around and I’m filling up my cart. There are great deals. And then I realize, oh, I’m gonna run outta space. And so I ran to Google and searched, uh, best micro SD card for Steam Deck Reddit, uh, as you do, you know, gotta slap on the Reddit. And then I fell down this rabbit hole of panicked posts about the global memory storage shortage, uh, thanks to the AI industry.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Shocking to no one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Shocking to no one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The AI industry is using resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So AI data centers need like an obscene amount of memory chips called RAM, uh, random access memory. And these are the chips that let your laptop like, open multiple programs, uh, without crashing or gaming systems and consoles to run games without lagging. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it’s like, temporary memory at at its most basic. Um, data centers need a lot of RAM and along with graphics cards.They need both of these, uh, technologies to train and operate AI models 24/7. One data center’s ram, uh, capacity can power something like a million laptops all at once. And AI companies right now are buying up the world supply of ram. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what does this have to do with storage? Let me tell you. According to TechRadar, there are three main players that control the whole global market of memory chip production, um, SK Hynix, Samsung, and Micron.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so these giants are also producers of flash memory and like, that’s like the static, like, kind of like a file cabinet, you know. It’s just like a space to dump your files. It’s like SD cards, external hard drives, USB, flash drives, um, all that. So they’re making both, right? They’re making RAM, they’re making the flash memory. They got their hands on everything. And because of the AI boom, these memory chip producers are shifting to producing more RAM, um, specifically for large scale AI centers. And because of this, they’re making less flash memory products and also making less products for consumers in general. They’re, like, deprioritizing consumer production in order to meet the demand for enterprise companies, which make a lot more money. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These memory chip companies are expanding their production, but they’re gonna hit a wall, uh, very quickly in the next year. And so that means that anything electronic is going to skyrocket price-wise: laptops, TVs, consoles. Like, even if you build a PC from scratch, each individual part that you’re buying is going to be more expensive because the major players that create both kinds of memory products are shifting to cater to AI data centers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, let, let me, let me get this straight, Morgan. Um, you’re saying that it’s fiscally responsible for me to buy a Switch 2 this week?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Definitely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Genuinely, yes. It’s not just the tariffs that are driving up prices. It turns out it goes way, way deeper than that.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So amazing how one thing just affects everything, everything else down the line. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Everything.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s wild is that, um, Trend Force did this whole, uh, report on the, the future of consumer electronics, and they predicted that smartphone and laptop RAM will actually decrease over time because of the shortage.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so for example, my 2-year-old iPhone has 8 gigabytes of RAM, and the newest ones go as high as like 12. But because of the shortage, uh, smartphones might actually start at 4 gigabytes, which is what iPhones ran on in like 2017 when like running Snapchat and YouTube at the same time made your phone hot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hmm. So you’re saying we’re, we’re now in a place where smartphones are going to become dumber again? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s our future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, soon you won’t be able to run, uh, YouTube and scroll at the same time on your phone, um, if you don’t have enough RAM. Personally I’m annoyed because I really want to play Oblivion Remastered on my Steam Deck because I have discovered the joy of gaming while lying down. And I can’t do that because I don’t have enough space.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to the team, Morgan\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dreams deferred. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Does this just mean that we’re gonna have to keep buying new electronics all the time because of all the…If they’re making less and less storage or RAM space, like yeah, what does that mean for us as consumers? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s true. We, we used to be able to, the idea of future proofing your purchases, right. You buy something that’s like, good enough to last you for a long time.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now if the stuff you’re buying is getting worse and worse, uh, it’s, it feels like that’s a cycle you don’t want to get into.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, I think this shortage, uh, and the conversation we’re having is kind of like a, a precursor. It’s a little preview of what the future of consuming could look like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For sure. So Morgan, do you have a prediction for 2026?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I don’t know if this is a prediction for 2026, so much as like for the future in general, but I do wonder if games are gonna get smaller, um, because it’s just gonna be really expensive to keep equipping memory if memory is now a precious resource. Also this is less of a prediction and more of a hope, but I really hope that, uh, physical copies of games become more of a thing again. I really miss the days of trading DS cartridges with my siblings, and I think that was really sweet. We should bring that back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A hundred percent. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sounds fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll swap DS cartridges with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you. If we can ever get them back,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m sure, you know, I’m sure we’ll find out like right as this episode airs that we actually can’t make DS cartridges anymore because we don’t have the storage for them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Turns out AI now needs DS cartridges to run. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So my question for all of you, um, now that we’ve discussed the global memory shortage and my inability to keep buying games that I won’t play, uh, is do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think this is gonna roll into a bigger thing.I think save,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah. I, I would say let’s, let’s save it. it feels like this is gonna change consumer electronics going forward. It’s a big deal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, I’ll say save too. What do you think Morgan?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Uh, I wanna save it because I’m annoyed. This is my personal gripe now. Um, and I really want to eventually play Oblivion, Remastered, but I think I’ll have to delete like two games to make room for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. We’re saving. So, so far we’ve got two saves. We’re stacking our slate for 2026.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So now I have a really wild story for you guys. Um,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wait, wait. I’m so sorry, Maya. We legally have to take a quick break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, fine. We’ll get back to it after the break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, we’re back. Maya, it is finally your turn. What did you bring us today? What was the story that has haunted you throughout our break,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. So when I say the phrase AI artists, what do you guys think of?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of nonsensical Christmas music lyrics.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of, uh, it’s always like some guy on Twitter who’s like, Ugh, look at my art that I made using ChatGPT or Gemini or Midjourney. And it’s like, dude, you just typed words. You didn’t make that art.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think of like an imaginary artist creating AI art or something? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, yeah. So AI artists are actually online figures who look like real musicians or actresses, but are actually completely created by AI. So they’re not real humans, they are fake. So in 2025 there were a few AI artists generated. One of them was AI artist, Xania Monet, who’s an R&B artist, and she was actually created by Telisha “Nikki” Jones, who’s a poet. And I have a clip of her that I’ll play right now for you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Xania Monet in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just want to take a moment to say thank you for the love, the support, the videos… \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, I did not like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So it’s really creepy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, thanks. I hate it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t need that from her. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. Um, so it’s really, really creepy because she sounds real. She doesn’t look that real, but she does sound real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And just to clarify, Maya, that was the AI voice that we were hearing right there, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. That was the AI voice of Xania Monet. Um, and so she actually charted on Spotify last year, 2025. Um, and she got a multimillion dollar deal as well, which is just wild. And she’s not real. She’s completely fake. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So also in 2025, there was an artist that was created who was actually an AI actress, and her name is Tilly Norwood. And she was created by former actor Eline Van Der Velden. And now there’s a whole new studio called Tilly-verse to help expand Tilly Norwood. Um, I actually have a clip from an interview with Tilly Norwood, um, on a podcast that we’ll play right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Tilly Norwood in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, I’m Tilly Norwood, the world’s first AI actor. Delighted to meet you. I’m so excited to be on Good Morning Britain. I may look real but there is no need to be afraid of me. I am just here to spice up entertainment and tell stories in a new way. I hope you’ll be seeing more of me.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is shades of “Black Mirror.” I don’t know. I have mixed feelings about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But yeah, so both of those are both AI generated. So we have, um, Xania Monet, who’s the R&B artist who got the multimillion dollar deal, who you first heard from, and then there’s Tilly Norwood. Um, but I wanted to ask all of you, like, first of all, for Xania, do you feel like is it’s ethical to actually sign them to record deals, AI artists? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well that, that is my question and maybe, maybe you can share a little bit on this, Maya, but like, what does it mean to sign an AI artist to a record deal? Like who is signing, who is signing on the dotted line? You know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, so I actually had to look this up because I also was confused. Um, so it looks like Telisha “Nikki” Jones, who is the poet that actually created her, is the one who gets the money from the record deal. Um, and apparently Telisha Jones also writes the lyrics for Xania Monet. Um, so I think that’s how she can kind of make the case that she should be the one to get the money, I guess, for the deal. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That makes sense to me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This reminds me of, do you guys know Lil Miquela?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No. Who’s that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so she is a CGI influencer, or, or I guess her whole thing was being a virtual influencer and she claimed to be AI like back in 2016. But in reality it was just like CGI and like motion capture. Um, and she’s created by this like, marketing team.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, wait, let me see ifI can find a video for you. It’s so weird. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Lil Miquela in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starting this year, I’m committed to making choices that show I care for the planet and sustaining yourself is just as important. That’s why I rely on Liquid IV for self-care. It keeps me feeing good so I can look and do good. That’s the energy I’m bringing into ….\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so that’s Lil Miquela. Um, and her whole thing is being like a CGI influencer, but from what I understand, it’s like a person in a motion capture suit underneath. And they say that they use AI for like digital rendering, but it’s like a person tracking. Um, and like it’s a person’s voice allegedly. Um, and there’s like a marketing team behind her. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it reminded me of that when you mentioned this, but like that was what we just watched was like a Liquid IV ad. And so this it, the CGI influencer has been used to market and like get brand deals for years since 2016. And then it has gotten canceled a couple times because, uh, at one point, I think this year she made a video where she was like, I have leukemia.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was part…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my gosh!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …of a campaign to like raise money for leukemia research, where I think like bone marrow donations. Uh, people have been like weirded out by her for the last decade.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel like the AI actresses that you’re talking about, Maya, or like the, was it Xania Monet? feels like the next step of this where they’ve removed the actual people who are running this virtual girl’s social pages and it’s just generated now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. No, that’s super interesting.That you bring that up. So apparently for Tilly-verse, which is the studio that’s gonna help expand Tilly Norwood, who is the AI actress, they’re claiming that they’re actually gonna be creating jobs. So they would have somebody who’s like running the social media or writing the scripts and the dialogue and things like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But my question is, is like, well, what happens when they can just train AI to do that? So maybe they’ll hire human workers, right? But then eventually they’ll just get replaced as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well they said they’re creating jobs, but they didn’t say if they were human jobs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? They said…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It could be AI jobs\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They claimed that it would be like for humans, but they could easily, like Morgan was saying, with what happened to Lil Miquela that like, they could just be replaced by AI as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And my thing is like, I don’t like being fooled, and so there’s a little bit of comfort already knowing the people behind these people. But like, I worry about down the road when somebody first encounters an AI actress or an ar- AI musician, and we don’t even talk about the person behind it. I’m like, who is this for? Like, okay,these advances are made in order so that humans can go do things that they want to do. Like I think we enjoy making, um, art and acting and songs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMaya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like who is it for?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And like, what are we enjoying exactly.too?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right? What are we enjoying? Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, do, do we just enjoy the thing we see on the screen? Or do we enjoy the idea that there’s intention and artistic endeavor behind it? This also makes me think like in some ways, yes, this is slightly, it’s dystopian and slightly terrifying, but in, in another way, it’s not that different from like, our current sort of model of famous Hollywood actors/celebrity culture.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Cause we already have humans who are kind of fake. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they are like industries of themselves. They have teams behind them, even though we, we see them as, as represented as a single person. But, you know, you think of like any Hollywood A-lister and they’re gonna have an operational team. They’re gonna have a marketing team. They’re gonna have, you know, like probably hundreds of people employed, keeping this one person’s image going. So,like, in a weird way, it’s kind of like reducing that to, its like core-most essence. Of like, we already have fake people in celebrity culture, and this is like the fakest version of that, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. We’re already seeing just their persona riight. What they want us to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s no, there’s no facade about it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re just like, this is fake.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. That’s interesting. Well, I also think about just, I don’t know, maybe people are already, celebrities are already perpetuating these tropes anyways, but I’m just thinking about the tropes that these AI artists might be perpetuating.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like, Xania Monet being a Black R&B artist. And then Tilly Norwood is this white woman and they said that they are depicting a white woman, right, because it’s not real. Um, but their creators already said like, oh, this is how we want them to be presented. Tilly Norwood should kind of come across as this like, girl next door.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? Um, so yeah. I’m just wondering the types of tropes that they would already, that would, they would be perpetuating about like Black and brown artists, about women. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They are kind of by default caricatures, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because they’re not real people. It’s interesting. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. Maya, Xania Monet and Tilly Norwood. What is your prediction for the next year uh, based on what you brought us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So I do feel that these AI artists will make it harder for human artists, um, to be able to book roles or even get record deals because now it seems like anyone can just make a generated artist. I also feel like with the Tilly-verse, which is the studio that’s helping expand Tilly Norwood, um, that they’ll eventually just replace the human workers, that they claim they’re gonna be hiring, with AI.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I feel like that could happen like within the year, um, or everything will pop and these AI will crash, but I don’t think that’s gonna happen within this year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Xania Monet will be the first victim of the AI bubble popping. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’ll be the first to cover it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Okay. Team thoughts. Should we save AI artists for a close all tabs deep dive, or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I gotta be honest. I’m ready to scroll past these AI artists. I don’t want them in my feed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I agree. But I wanna save this because I do feel like I wanna do some kind of story on this later. So I’m gonna say save. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s fair.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m gonna say scroll. I feel like it’s, it’s interesting because it’s new right now, but I’m just like meh, you know, I’ll see how it shakes out. You know,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah, I, I’m sorry, Maya. I’m scrolling because..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, no.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lil Miquela did it first, and I’m waiting, I’m waiting for a little bit for Lil Miquela to feud with one of these fakers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh my God, God. Lil Miquela off the top rope.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well then we gotta save it ‘cause we gotta follow their feud.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know. I, I say save if, we’ll, we’ll come back to it if Lil Miquela weighs in on AI artists.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so last story for the day. Chris H what did you bring us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so I saw this video while I was scrolling Instagram. This user, SeanJaye1988, posted this reel where he stitched together two videos. So one of them was filmed at the end of 2024 where he was asking himself questions. And the second video was filmed at the end of 2025 when he answered those questions posed by his former self.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Did you lose weight?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: 15 lbs, Shawty!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you still driving that car?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Hell naw! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Because that m-r is on like 200,000 miles.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: That m—r said “poof!”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Did you start your podcast?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Absolutely not..\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so these questions were around like his progress on goals that he set for himself. Like, did you move? Are you still at the same job? And at the end of this, he asked himself, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you okay? Do you love yourself?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you okay? Do you love yourself? And it seemed as if he had very much not been okay in 2024, so that’s why his former self was checking in about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in response, the 2025 version, Sean blew air out of his lips and then press them together and turned to the side and his eyes look kind of glassy. And then he finally was like, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Yes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you making sure you’re okay?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: I pray that you are. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: I am. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. That was really sweet.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what I think is really interesting about the video is that, you know, he says yes, but you know, it’s something that he’s looks like he’s still working on, you know? Um, but what I really, um, enjoyed about this is because like, yeah, it’s, you know, somebody posting something that could seem performative. I’m processing this real time thing, you know, like in public, on social media. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’ve seen different versions of like this sort of thing, asking your future self questions. But like, this one had a lot of sincerity and a lot of emotionality and a rare, um, for me, seen moment of vulnerability from a man online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, and so I feel like it’s a counter to this article that came out at the beginning of 2025, from the New York Times, talking about how big the Manosphere was and how like, if you think that it’s only on the fringes, you’re you’re wrong because it’s, it’s right here. It’s Earth. The manosphere is Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s all of this like misogyny and toxic masculinity in American culture and politics. It’s, it’s, it’s right here. Um, so this is one that I, I really thought, you know, was interesting and I would love to see more of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, down with the manosphere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What, what would we call this instead of the, the manosphere?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, the emotion…emotion bonanza\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the feelingsphere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Feelingsphere! I like feelingsphere. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I looked at, uh, some other post on this guy’s account and they all seem very rooted in being vulnerable out loud. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, he’s got posts about his weight. It’s, you know, one where he’s at, uh, a wedding and somehow he got the mic. I think he’s in the wedding party and, and so these real life moments that he is sharing, you know. And I think of that in light of all the podcasters and male bloggers who focus on like sports and gambling and rah-rah red-blooded American male… Like, you know, I hope this guy does start a podcast, um, where he gets like more vulnerable and encourages other guys to, um, kind of beat back this, you know, masculinity that is actually a backlash to feminism, the rise of feminism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s like you said, I, I was really drawn to the authenticity in this. The fact that it… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Same \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …did not, it could have felt so performative and I can imagine what that version of the video looks like and this, it really felt like he was having a conversation earnestly with, with his past self. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, I think that’s hard to do online. Uh, I thought it was really touching.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I thought so too. And I also liked that it felt like a live vision board in a way, or like or not even a vision board.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> More so like, here’s what happened, here’s what we hope where we’re gonna happen, and then we get to see like what actually ended up happening for him 2025.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. There are a lot of things where, you know, people like sit down and like do tactile things \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And pull out and like pen and paper and cut up magazines. But this one is like, hey, if you’re already operating, you know, in the online sphere, if you’ve already got your phone in your hand all the time, like this is like a very, um, low lift way for you to just like document what were the things that were on my mind…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …and like, check in later, so long as you can find the video. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right, right, right. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You gotta be organized.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You know, I, not to be cynical, but when you first sent this video, I was like, oh God, it’s another performative male thing. Like, I don’t know if you remember this, like last year was the year of performative male contests where like guys would put on their baggiest jeans and their, like all their labubus hooked onto it, bring their tote bags and their flowers and their like little Bell Hooks back, like copies to the park and compete as the most performative male.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was kind of like a funny commentary on like how, uh, you know, guys were trying to not be the manosphere guy, like this like soft kind of person who is sensitive and listens to women and reads feminist material. Um, but then, you know, at the core they’re still kind of like players, whatever. And I was expecting that kind of thing, but it was nice to see something more authentic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, I don’t know, maybe that’s me. I’m too cynical about the internet, but I hope, I hope this kind of continues.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Lemme ask a question. Just because I am the only, I guess, male representative in this space, uh, uh, right now on our team.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, that we, you have the manosphere on one side, right? Uh, we all know what that is: the Joe Rogans of the world and the Andrew Tates and all of that. Um, and then you talk about the like performative mail and how that was really a big thing last year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I just wonder like not to be like a male apologist, but like what are men supposed to do? What space are they supposed to occupy? You know, because like, I think you could imagine some men trying to sort of distance themselves from the manosphere stuff and then being called performative.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and so like what, what is the right, uh, in your opinion in 2026, what, what does that look like? Like what is an authentic, like, non-toxic man supposed to present as and supposed to be in the world? Um, that’s not performative.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, when the whole performative male contests, uh, you know, were, when they, those were all taking off across the country. There were so many think pieces about like, how do men act online? Like, oh no. Um, and I think those contests were really like a commentary on how the manosphere and this like archetype of like this, the TikTok soft boy, it’s really like a horseshoe. You know, they’re, they’re a lot closer than you think because they’re performing, uh, they’re performing being woke, but like in public, but then in secret and or in private still mistreating women. And so I think really it’s just being normal to woman online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, it’s the toxic traits are still there at the core.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Just they’re like wrapped up in a tote bag and a labubu.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>All:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Just being normal\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Be genuine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s, it’s possible guys. It’s possible. Just be normal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Chris H., I have to know, based on this not performative male, not manosphere content that you just showed us, what is your prediction for 2026?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. I think that this is gonna be a year where more men feel comfortable being vulnerable publicly online…and sincerely, um, like maybe we’ll see more of these, um, checking in with your past self videos, and hopefully all the men who have, um, repressed these emotions, uh, they start leaking out and they get to release them as a healthier method of, um, being instead of like blowing things up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, team, an antidote to the manosphere. Do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I vote to save this because, you know, we’ve been talking about doing something on the manosphere in general, but I kind of like looking at this, what’s beyond the manosphere? How, how might it be rejected in the next year?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, you know, I am surprising myself because I am on the fence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, I, I like a good internet trend. I hope that this will take off, but I wanna see it, um, sort of in the background. I want it to happen without it going, Hey, look what men are doing.You know? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I can just like be, I took note of that. That’s neat. More of that, please. Scroll.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then you’re back in the performative space,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> More labubus.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Although I do wanna see an antidote to the manosphere. I feel like I would scroll past this personally, but I don’t know Morgan, what you think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, you know, I’ve been scrolling past the manosphere content because I don’t wanna see it. Um, and I don’t wanna platform it. Um, and then this, it’s like, I, I like that it’s happening. I, I think it’s good for humanity but I’m gonna scroll because I don’t wanna make a Not All Men episode. Sorry, Chris.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Crushing. Crushing. I mean, do I need a retort? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, uh, so sorry Chris, we are, Chris E. We are scrolling on men being vulnerable online, but we do want more of it in the world. We do want it, we want it to happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll save it on my, my personal feed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well guys, thanks for joining me for Save or Scroll.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. I’ll see you in a year.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks Morgan. This was super fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Thanks Morgan. This was a lot of fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right, well, that is it for Save or Scroll. We’re keeping tabs on everything that we did save, so don’t be surprised if one of those stories shows up as a deep dive in your feed. We’ll be back next week with more Close All Tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nClose All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Hambrick is our editor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? And if you \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a holiday installment of Save or Scroll, Morgan and the Close All Tabs team get together to talk over the stories they can’t stop thinking about. From OpenAI’s concerning new job posting, to a major RAM shortage, AI artists on the come up, and an antidote to the Manosphere, they’ve got a lot to chew on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Save or Scroll is our series where we team up with guests for a rapid-fire roundup of internet trends that are filling our feeds right now. At the end of each segment, they’ll decide: is the post just for the group chat, or should we save it for a future episode?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC9668443018\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Morgan Sung, Host of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Egusa, Senior Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Maya Cueva, Producer of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Hambrick, Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/news/850537/sam-altman-openai-head-of-preparedness\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sam Altman is hiring someone to worry about the dangers of AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Terrence O’Brien, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/challenges-of-openai-head-of-preparedness-role-2025-12\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why OpenAI’s $555,000 Head of Preparedness Role May Be Hard to Fill\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Sarah E. Needleman, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Business Insider\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/12/28/nx-s1-5656190/ai-chips-memory-prices-ram\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Memory loss: As AI gobbles up chips, prices for devices may rise\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — John Ruwitch, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NPR\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.techradar.com/pro/why-is-ram-so-expensive-right-now-its-more-complicated-than-you-think\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why is RAM so expensive right now? It’s way more complicated than you think\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Wayne Williams, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TechRadar\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/dougmelville/2025/09/27/al-singer-xania-monet-just-charted-on-billboard-signed-3m-deal-is-this-the-future-of-music/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Singer Xania Monet Just Charted On Billboard, Signed $3 Million Deal. Is This The Future Of Music?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Doug Melville, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forbes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.billboard.com/lists/ai-artists-on-billboard-charts/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How Many AI Artists Have Debuted on Billboard’s Charts?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Xander Zellner, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Billboard\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/01/style/trump-zuckerberg-masculinity.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ‘Manosphere’? It’s Planet Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Joseph Bernstein, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSvjuMEkj0H/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D\">“2024 self interviewing my 2025 self”\u003c/a> — @seanjaye1988, Instagram Reel\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome back to Close All tabs. We’ve been on a break the last few weeks, refreshing, relaxing, touching grass. In my case, being back on the East Coast for the holidays, touching a lot of snow. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend here at Open. As many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives, except today we aren’t opening any tabs. That’s right, to kick off the new year, we’re back with another episode of Save or Scroll. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, what is Save or Scroll? This is a game we play every now and then on close all tabs. We do a lot of deep dives on the show, but sometimes I come across a story that’s fascinating and wild and I’m dying to talk about it with someone, but there isn’t necessarily enough to do an entire episode about it. Or I do a little digging and realize that there’s a lot more to the story and it’s definitely worth a deep dive. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a very special Save or Scroll because joining me is the rest of the close all tabs team. On today’s episode, we have senior editor Chris Egusa,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey there!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> producer Maya Cueva,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi, Morgan!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and editor Chris Hambrick.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hello!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So we have all been offline for the last few weeks, and today we’re gonna catch up with a few different tech and internet stories that may have slipped under the radar during the holiday season. And for this episode, each of the four of us has brought one story that we cannot stop thinking about, that’s haunted us throughout our entire holiday break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as a group, we’re gonna decide to Save or Scroll. If we scroll, that means we’ve talked about it, we’re moving on. If we decide to save, that means we’re bookmarking it and we might dive in deeper in a future episode. And based on the stories we brought today, we’re gonna make a few predictions for the new year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You guys ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ready. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m ready.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, Chris E, you’re up first. What did you bring us today?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So if you want to get paid $555,000 to stop the AI apocalypse, I have good news. Open AI is hiring for a new position: head of preparedness. So get excited.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a bit ominous.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re all launching your applications right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So on December 27th, we were treated to kind of a late Christmas present from Mr. Sam Altman, CEO of OpenAI, which side note, is actually within a walking distance of where we are recording right now at the KQED studios. But yeah, he posted on X that the company is hiring for a head of preparedness.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does this mean? You might ask? Here is a little bit of Sam’s post, he said, “We are hiring a head of preparedness. This is a critical role at an important time. Models are improving quickly and are now capable of many great things, but they’re also starting to present some real challenges. The potential impact of models on mental health was something we saw a preview of in 2025. We are also now seeing models get so good at computer security, they’re beginning to find critical vulnerabilities.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So he goes on to say that this person would be responsible for executing the company’s quote preparedness framework, uh, securing AI models for the release of biological capabilities, which, that definitely sounds ominous.Um, and at the end of the post, he warns that it will be a stressful job and that you’ll jump in immediately. So get those resumes ready. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh God. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can I ask a clarifying question?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Please.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Is this basically like they’re hiring someone to pull the plug…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …if it all goes bad?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Great question. And there’ve been some, some online jokes about that as well. Basically, this is a person who is directly responsible for preventing all of the risks posed by all of this ever advancing AI technology.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are calling it an impossible job because those risks are innumerable and impossible to really predict. Right? And like you mentioned Morgan, immediately, uh, there were jokes about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So some people posted a fake open AI job post from a few years ago that was called, uh, Kill Switch Engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is a couple years ago, people dug up this, this fake post. And, uh, in that post, this fake job post under expectations, it listed know how to unplug things, bonus points, if you can throw a bucket of water on the servers too, just in case. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ah. So, yeah, to your point, Morgan,you could like reduce this idea to someone\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> who just is gonna pull the plug if AI gets too powerful, tries to take over the world. Um, other people called this position chief, fall guy, or Chief Scapegoat Officer, which is very funny to me: the idea that like, they’re hiring one person who can absorb all \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">of the blame for whenever anything goes bad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, I’ll just mention a few things to note on this. Uh, it’s actually not a new position, even though it’s kind of being characterized as that OpenAI has had this position in the past. Um, and it actually has a preparedness team, but the people who occupied the position either kept moving into other departments or leaving the company entirely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s been vacant for a little while, and so they’re hiring a new one. Um, the other thing is that Altman has a history of making really big claims about AI’s power and potential. But critics point to the fact that many of these claims are often just hype. So I will turn it to you all. What do you think, is this a good thing that OpenAI is investing in preparedness or is it more AI doomer hype?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It just seems like right now when AI is getting more and OpenAI specifically is getting more criticized than ever, like they probably want someone for that position before, you know, the 15 or so lawsuits over ChatGPT related deaths happened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, exactly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. So I, I do feel like, okay, it is, you know, like it’s some foresight, you know, like in all seriousness. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually feel like a little bit more comfortable, um, if somebody is thinking about like how to prevent a disaster or mitigate it, or at least have some plan in place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, no, I don’t think it’s like doomsday, like I don’t think it’s over the top to think about, like, getting somebody in the position who could give us some steps to follow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s probably better than not having someone thinking \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> about it when you look at the alternative. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I think this is less of a kill switch engineer and more of a, uh, oh, how do we not get sued again, kind of, kind of position, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Does this make you feel more concerned that they are identifying these potentially huge, sort of like, world changing threats or do you see this as, okay, this is a marketing play, essentially?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I’m definitely terrified that they’re already identifying those positions. It almost seems like it’s both and right, because it seems like they’re doing that too, because they know something bad will happen. But also it seems like they’re trying to cover their bases and protect the company. So it’s hard to say that even if we had, if this position gets filled, is it actually gonna protect us? Who knows? Hard to say, so that’s fair.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I, I feel like I’m on the side of the marketing hype because mm-hmm. Who posts a job and then gets on X and they’re like, Hey, by the way, we’re doing this thing. Look at us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re so ahead of it. Right. We’re, you know, like, think kindly of us or think that we are, you know, thinking of you, the public, when it’s really like, you know, wanting a pat on the back. I feel like that’s….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. yeah,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> ….They’re drawing attention to like, you know, they’re doing good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It, it feels calculated for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Based on the story that you brought us on, OpenAI hiring the head of Preparedness, what is your prediction for this year, Chris E.?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so my prediction for 2026 is that we will not see a doomsday scenario with AI this year. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hopefully\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s my prediction. You know, I could be wrong, but instead I think that AI hype will actually start to peter out and we will see the first ripples of a sort of deflating bubble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, a lot of experts have already pointed out how shaky the actual business case is for AI companies. There’s very little actual return on all the investment, and yet we’ve staked this huge chunk of our economy on the idea that this technology will just keep growing and keep getting better and better. Um, so I think maybe the real head of preparedness should be figuring out how to save our economy when AI doesn’t keep improving.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oof. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Agreed\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s why they’ll get paid $555K a year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sign me up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, team, what do we think? Uh, open eyes, head of preparedness. The AI bubble popping. Do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll save it. I’ll keep an eye on it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I’m gonna also save it. I think this is important to keep an eye on. We don’t know what’s gonna happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think we should save it. Yeah. I think this is a very Close All Tabs, uh, kind of thing. It’s, I, we joke about how often we have to cover AI on the show, it’s like, oh my God, another AI story. But also each one brings a new horror and I think it is worth diving into.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> True.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A new flavor of horror.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. We’re saving OpenAI, uh, head of preparedness, and maybe the bubble popping. That’s a save. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I regret to inform you all that I also have an AI related story for you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh no!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so I am up next and, uh, buckle up. We’re gonna talk about the world RAM shortage, uh, and why I still can’t play Oblivion, Remastered. So if there are any electronic devices on your wishlist for this year, buy them now. Buy them right now because I bought a Steam Deck on Black Friday, after agonizing over it for literally years because I can’t make decisions about big purchases very easily. So I have barely been outside during my break. I have developed a callous on my thumb from playing Hades II. I’m having a great time, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Steam Deck annual winter seal rolls around and I’m filling up my cart. There are great deals. And then I realize, oh, I’m gonna run outta space. And so I ran to Google and searched, uh, best micro SD card for Steam Deck Reddit, uh, as you do, you know, gotta slap on the Reddit. And then I fell down this rabbit hole of panicked posts about the global memory storage shortage, uh, thanks to the AI industry.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Shocking to no one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Shocking to no one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The AI industry is using resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So AI data centers need like an obscene amount of memory chips called RAM, uh, random access memory. And these are the chips that let your laptop like, open multiple programs, uh, without crashing or gaming systems and consoles to run games without lagging. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it’s like, temporary memory at at its most basic. Um, data centers need a lot of RAM and along with graphics cards.They need both of these, uh, technologies to train and operate AI models 24/7. One data center’s ram, uh, capacity can power something like a million laptops all at once. And AI companies right now are buying up the world supply of ram. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what does this have to do with storage? Let me tell you. According to TechRadar, there are three main players that control the whole global market of memory chip production, um, SK Hynix, Samsung, and Micron.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so these giants are also producers of flash memory and like, that’s like the static, like, kind of like a file cabinet, you know. It’s just like a space to dump your files. It’s like SD cards, external hard drives, USB, flash drives, um, all that. So they’re making both, right? They’re making RAM, they’re making the flash memory. They got their hands on everything. And because of the AI boom, these memory chip producers are shifting to producing more RAM, um, specifically for large scale AI centers. And because of this, they’re making less flash memory products and also making less products for consumers in general. They’re, like, deprioritizing consumer production in order to meet the demand for enterprise companies, which make a lot more money. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These memory chip companies are expanding their production, but they’re gonna hit a wall, uh, very quickly in the next year. And so that means that anything electronic is going to skyrocket price-wise: laptops, TVs, consoles. Like, even if you build a PC from scratch, each individual part that you’re buying is going to be more expensive because the major players that create both kinds of memory products are shifting to cater to AI data centers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, let, let me, let me get this straight, Morgan. Um, you’re saying that it’s fiscally responsible for me to buy a Switch 2 this week?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Definitely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Genuinely, yes. It’s not just the tariffs that are driving up prices. It turns out it goes way, way deeper than that.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So amazing how one thing just affects everything, everything else down the line. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Everything.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s wild is that, um, Trend Force did this whole, uh, report on the, the future of consumer electronics, and they predicted that smartphone and laptop RAM will actually decrease over time because of the shortage.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so for example, my 2-year-old iPhone has 8 gigabytes of RAM, and the newest ones go as high as like 12. But because of the shortage, uh, smartphones might actually start at 4 gigabytes, which is what iPhones ran on in like 2017 when like running Snapchat and YouTube at the same time made your phone hot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hmm. So you’re saying we’re, we’re now in a place where smartphones are going to become dumber again? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s our future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, soon you won’t be able to run, uh, YouTube and scroll at the same time on your phone, um, if you don’t have enough RAM. Personally I’m annoyed because I really want to play Oblivion Remastered on my Steam Deck because I have discovered the joy of gaming while lying down. And I can’t do that because I don’t have enough space.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to the team, Morgan\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dreams deferred. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Does this just mean that we’re gonna have to keep buying new electronics all the time because of all the…If they’re making less and less storage or RAM space, like yeah, what does that mean for us as consumers? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s true. We, we used to be able to, the idea of future proofing your purchases, right. You buy something that’s like, good enough to last you for a long time.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now if the stuff you’re buying is getting worse and worse, uh, it’s, it feels like that’s a cycle you don’t want to get into.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, I think this shortage, uh, and the conversation we’re having is kind of like a, a precursor. It’s a little preview of what the future of consuming could look like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For sure. So Morgan, do you have a prediction for 2026?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I don’t know if this is a prediction for 2026, so much as like for the future in general, but I do wonder if games are gonna get smaller, um, because it’s just gonna be really expensive to keep equipping memory if memory is now a precious resource. Also this is less of a prediction and more of a hope, but I really hope that, uh, physical copies of games become more of a thing again. I really miss the days of trading DS cartridges with my siblings, and I think that was really sweet. We should bring that back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A hundred percent. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sounds fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll swap DS cartridges with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you. If we can ever get them back,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m sure, you know, I’m sure we’ll find out like right as this episode airs that we actually can’t make DS cartridges anymore because we don’t have the storage for them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Turns out AI now needs DS cartridges to run. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So my question for all of you, um, now that we’ve discussed the global memory shortage and my inability to keep buying games that I won’t play, uh, is do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think this is gonna roll into a bigger thing.I think save,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah. I, I would say let’s, let’s save it. it feels like this is gonna change consumer electronics going forward. It’s a big deal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, I’ll say save too. What do you think Morgan?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Uh, I wanna save it because I’m annoyed. This is my personal gripe now. Um, and I really want to eventually play Oblivion, Remastered, but I think I’ll have to delete like two games to make room for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. We’re saving. So, so far we’ve got two saves. We’re stacking our slate for 2026.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So now I have a really wild story for you guys. Um,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wait, wait. I’m so sorry, Maya. We legally have to take a quick break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, fine. We’ll get back to it after the break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, we’re back. Maya, it is finally your turn. What did you bring us today? What was the story that has haunted you throughout our break,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. So when I say the phrase AI artists, what do you guys think of?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of nonsensical Christmas music lyrics.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of, uh, it’s always like some guy on Twitter who’s like, Ugh, look at my art that I made using ChatGPT or Gemini or Midjourney. And it’s like, dude, you just typed words. You didn’t make that art.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think of like an imaginary artist creating AI art or something? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, yeah. So AI artists are actually online figures who look like real musicians or actresses, but are actually completely created by AI. So they’re not real humans, they are fake. So in 2025 there were a few AI artists generated. One of them was AI artist, Xania Monet, who’s an R&B artist, and she was actually created by Telisha “Nikki” Jones, who’s a poet. And I have a clip of her that I’ll play right now for you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Xania Monet in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just want to take a moment to say thank you for the love, the support, the videos… \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, I did not like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So it’s really creepy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, thanks. I hate it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t need that from her. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. Um, so it’s really, really creepy because she sounds real. She doesn’t look that real, but she does sound real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And just to clarify, Maya, that was the AI voice that we were hearing right there, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. That was the AI voice of Xania Monet. Um, and so she actually charted on Spotify last year, 2025. Um, and she got a multimillion dollar deal as well, which is just wild. And she’s not real. She’s completely fake. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So also in 2025, there was an artist that was created who was actually an AI actress, and her name is Tilly Norwood. And she was created by former actor Eline Van Der Velden. And now there’s a whole new studio called Tilly-verse to help expand Tilly Norwood. Um, I actually have a clip from an interview with Tilly Norwood, um, on a podcast that we’ll play right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Tilly Norwood in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, I’m Tilly Norwood, the world’s first AI actor. Delighted to meet you. I’m so excited to be on Good Morning Britain. I may look real but there is no need to be afraid of me. I am just here to spice up entertainment and tell stories in a new way. I hope you’ll be seeing more of me.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is shades of “Black Mirror.” I don’t know. I have mixed feelings about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But yeah, so both of those are both AI generated. So we have, um, Xania Monet, who’s the R&B artist who got the multimillion dollar deal, who you first heard from, and then there’s Tilly Norwood. Um, but I wanted to ask all of you, like, first of all, for Xania, do you feel like is it’s ethical to actually sign them to record deals, AI artists? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well that, that is my question and maybe, maybe you can share a little bit on this, Maya, but like, what does it mean to sign an AI artist to a record deal? Like who is signing, who is signing on the dotted line? You know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, so I actually had to look this up because I also was confused. Um, so it looks like Telisha “Nikki” Jones, who is the poet that actually created her, is the one who gets the money from the record deal. Um, and apparently Telisha Jones also writes the lyrics for Xania Monet. Um, so I think that’s how she can kind of make the case that she should be the one to get the money, I guess, for the deal. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That makes sense to me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This reminds me of, do you guys know Lil Miquela?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No. Who’s that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so she is a CGI influencer, or, or I guess her whole thing was being a virtual influencer and she claimed to be AI like back in 2016. But in reality it was just like CGI and like motion capture. Um, and she’s created by this like, marketing team.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, wait, let me see ifI can find a video for you. It’s so weird. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Lil Miquela in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starting this year, I’m committed to making choices that show I care for the planet and sustaining yourself is just as important. That’s why I rely on Liquid IV for self-care. It keeps me feeing good so I can look and do good. That’s the energy I’m bringing into ….\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so that’s Lil Miquela. Um, and her whole thing is being like a CGI influencer, but from what I understand, it’s like a person in a motion capture suit underneath. And they say that they use AI for like digital rendering, but it’s like a person tracking. Um, and like it’s a person’s voice allegedly. Um, and there’s like a marketing team behind her. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it reminded me of that when you mentioned this, but like that was what we just watched was like a Liquid IV ad. And so this it, the CGI influencer has been used to market and like get brand deals for years since 2016. And then it has gotten canceled a couple times because, uh, at one point, I think this year she made a video where she was like, I have leukemia.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was part…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my gosh!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …of a campaign to like raise money for leukemia research, where I think like bone marrow donations. Uh, people have been like weirded out by her for the last decade.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel like the AI actresses that you’re talking about, Maya, or like the, was it Xania Monet? feels like the next step of this where they’ve removed the actual people who are running this virtual girl’s social pages and it’s just generated now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. No, that’s super interesting.That you bring that up. So apparently for Tilly-verse, which is the studio that’s gonna help expand Tilly Norwood, who is the AI actress, they’re claiming that they’re actually gonna be creating jobs. So they would have somebody who’s like running the social media or writing the scripts and the dialogue and things like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But my question is, is like, well, what happens when they can just train AI to do that? So maybe they’ll hire human workers, right? But then eventually they’ll just get replaced as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well they said they’re creating jobs, but they didn’t say if they were human jobs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? They said…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It could be AI jobs\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They claimed that it would be like for humans, but they could easily, like Morgan was saying, with what happened to Lil Miquela that like, they could just be replaced by AI as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And my thing is like, I don’t like being fooled, and so there’s a little bit of comfort already knowing the people behind these people. But like, I worry about down the road when somebody first encounters an AI actress or an ar- AI musician, and we don’t even talk about the person behind it. I’m like, who is this for? Like, okay,these advances are made in order so that humans can go do things that they want to do. Like I think we enjoy making, um, art and acting and songs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMaya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like who is it for?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And like, what are we enjoying exactly.too?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right? What are we enjoying? Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, do, do we just enjoy the thing we see on the screen? Or do we enjoy the idea that there’s intention and artistic endeavor behind it? This also makes me think like in some ways, yes, this is slightly, it’s dystopian and slightly terrifying, but in, in another way, it’s not that different from like, our current sort of model of famous Hollywood actors/celebrity culture.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Cause we already have humans who are kind of fake. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they are like industries of themselves. They have teams behind them, even though we, we see them as, as represented as a single person. But, you know, you think of like any Hollywood A-lister and they’re gonna have an operational team. They’re gonna have a marketing team. They’re gonna have, you know, like probably hundreds of people employed, keeping this one person’s image going. So,like, in a weird way, it’s kind of like reducing that to, its like core-most essence. Of like, we already have fake people in celebrity culture, and this is like the fakest version of that, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. We’re already seeing just their persona riight. What they want us to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s no, there’s no facade about it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re just like, this is fake.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. That’s interesting. Well, I also think about just, I don’t know, maybe people are already, celebrities are already perpetuating these tropes anyways, but I’m just thinking about the tropes that these AI artists might be perpetuating.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like, Xania Monet being a Black R&B artist. And then Tilly Norwood is this white woman and they said that they are depicting a white woman, right, because it’s not real. Um, but their creators already said like, oh, this is how we want them to be presented. Tilly Norwood should kind of come across as this like, girl next door.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? Um, so yeah. I’m just wondering the types of tropes that they would already, that would, they would be perpetuating about like Black and brown artists, about women. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They are kind of by default caricatures, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because they’re not real people. It’s interesting. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. Maya, Xania Monet and Tilly Norwood. What is your prediction for the next year uh, based on what you brought us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So I do feel that these AI artists will make it harder for human artists, um, to be able to book roles or even get record deals because now it seems like anyone can just make a generated artist. I also feel like with the Tilly-verse, which is the studio that’s helping expand Tilly Norwood, um, that they’ll eventually just replace the human workers, that they claim they’re gonna be hiring, with AI.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I feel like that could happen like within the year, um, or everything will pop and these AI will crash, but I don’t think that’s gonna happen within this year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Xania Monet will be the first victim of the AI bubble popping. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’ll be the first to cover it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Okay. Team thoughts. Should we save AI artists for a close all tabs deep dive, or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I gotta be honest. I’m ready to scroll past these AI artists. I don’t want them in my feed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I agree. But I wanna save this because I do feel like I wanna do some kind of story on this later. So I’m gonna say save. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s fair.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m gonna say scroll. I feel like it’s, it’s interesting because it’s new right now, but I’m just like meh, you know, I’ll see how it shakes out. You know,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah, I, I’m sorry, Maya. I’m scrolling because..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, no.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lil Miquela did it first, and I’m waiting, I’m waiting for a little bit for Lil Miquela to feud with one of these fakers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh my God, God. Lil Miquela off the top rope.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well then we gotta save it ‘cause we gotta follow their feud.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know. I, I say save if, we’ll, we’ll come back to it if Lil Miquela weighs in on AI artists.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so last story for the day. Chris H what did you bring us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so I saw this video while I was scrolling Instagram. This user, SeanJaye1988, posted this reel where he stitched together two videos. So one of them was filmed at the end of 2024 where he was asking himself questions. And the second video was filmed at the end of 2025 when he answered those questions posed by his former self.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Did you lose weight?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: 15 lbs, Shawty!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you still driving that car?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Hell naw! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Because that m-r is on like 200,000 miles.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: That m—r said “poof!”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Did you start your podcast?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Absolutely not..\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so these questions were around like his progress on goals that he set for himself. Like, did you move? Are you still at the same job? And at the end of this, he asked himself, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you okay? Do you love yourself?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you okay? Do you love yourself? And it seemed as if he had very much not been okay in 2024, so that’s why his former self was checking in about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in response, the 2025 version, Sean blew air out of his lips and then press them together and turned to the side and his eyes look kind of glassy. And then he finally was like, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Yes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you making sure you’re okay?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: I pray that you are. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: I am. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. That was really sweet.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what I think is really interesting about the video is that, you know, he says yes, but you know, it’s something that he’s looks like he’s still working on, you know? Um, but what I really, um, enjoyed about this is because like, yeah, it’s, you know, somebody posting something that could seem performative. I’m processing this real time thing, you know, like in public, on social media. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’ve seen different versions of like this sort of thing, asking your future self questions. But like, this one had a lot of sincerity and a lot of emotionality and a rare, um, for me, seen moment of vulnerability from a man online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, and so I feel like it’s a counter to this article that came out at the beginning of 2025, from the New York Times, talking about how big the Manosphere was and how like, if you think that it’s only on the fringes, you’re you’re wrong because it’s, it’s right here. It’s Earth. The manosphere is Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s all of this like misogyny and toxic masculinity in American culture and politics. It’s, it’s, it’s right here. Um, so this is one that I, I really thought, you know, was interesting and I would love to see more of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, down with the manosphere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What, what would we call this instead of the, the manosphere?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, the emotion…emotion bonanza\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the feelingsphere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Feelingsphere! I like feelingsphere. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I looked at, uh, some other post on this guy’s account and they all seem very rooted in being vulnerable out loud. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, he’s got posts about his weight. It’s, you know, one where he’s at, uh, a wedding and somehow he got the mic. I think he’s in the wedding party and, and so these real life moments that he is sharing, you know. And I think of that in light of all the podcasters and male bloggers who focus on like sports and gambling and rah-rah red-blooded American male… Like, you know, I hope this guy does start a podcast, um, where he gets like more vulnerable and encourages other guys to, um, kind of beat back this, you know, masculinity that is actually a backlash to feminism, the rise of feminism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s like you said, I, I was really drawn to the authenticity in this. The fact that it… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Same \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …did not, it could have felt so performative and I can imagine what that version of the video looks like and this, it really felt like he was having a conversation earnestly with, with his past self. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, I think that’s hard to do online. Uh, I thought it was really touching.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I thought so too. And I also liked that it felt like a live vision board in a way, or like or not even a vision board.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> More so like, here’s what happened, here’s what we hope where we’re gonna happen, and then we get to see like what actually ended up happening for him 2025.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. There are a lot of things where, you know, people like sit down and like do tactile things \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And pull out and like pen and paper and cut up magazines. But this one is like, hey, if you’re already operating, you know, in the online sphere, if you’ve already got your phone in your hand all the time, like this is like a very, um, low lift way for you to just like document what were the things that were on my mind…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …and like, check in later, so long as you can find the video. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right, right, right. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You gotta be organized.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You know, I, not to be cynical, but when you first sent this video, I was like, oh God, it’s another performative male thing. Like, I don’t know if you remember this, like last year was the year of performative male contests where like guys would put on their baggiest jeans and their, like all their labubus hooked onto it, bring their tote bags and their flowers and their like little Bell Hooks back, like copies to the park and compete as the most performative male.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was kind of like a funny commentary on like how, uh, you know, guys were trying to not be the manosphere guy, like this like soft kind of person who is sensitive and listens to women and reads feminist material. Um, but then, you know, at the core they’re still kind of like players, whatever. And I was expecting that kind of thing, but it was nice to see something more authentic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, I don’t know, maybe that’s me. I’m too cynical about the internet, but I hope, I hope this kind of continues.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Lemme ask a question. Just because I am the only, I guess, male representative in this space, uh, uh, right now on our team.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, that we, you have the manosphere on one side, right? Uh, we all know what that is: the Joe Rogans of the world and the Andrew Tates and all of that. Um, and then you talk about the like performative mail and how that was really a big thing last year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I just wonder like not to be like a male apologist, but like what are men supposed to do? What space are they supposed to occupy? You know, because like, I think you could imagine some men trying to sort of distance themselves from the manosphere stuff and then being called performative.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and so like what, what is the right, uh, in your opinion in 2026, what, what does that look like? Like what is an authentic, like, non-toxic man supposed to present as and supposed to be in the world? Um, that’s not performative.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, when the whole performative male contests, uh, you know, were, when they, those were all taking off across the country. There were so many think pieces about like, how do men act online? Like, oh no. Um, and I think those contests were really like a commentary on how the manosphere and this like archetype of like this, the TikTok soft boy, it’s really like a horseshoe. You know, they’re, they’re a lot closer than you think because they’re performing, uh, they’re performing being woke, but like in public, but then in secret and or in private still mistreating women. And so I think really it’s just being normal to woman online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, it’s the toxic traits are still there at the core.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Just they’re like wrapped up in a tote bag and a labubu.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>All:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Just being normal\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Be genuine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s, it’s possible guys. It’s possible. Just be normal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Chris H., I have to know, based on this not performative male, not manosphere content that you just showed us, what is your prediction for 2026?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. I think that this is gonna be a year where more men feel comfortable being vulnerable publicly online…and sincerely, um, like maybe we’ll see more of these, um, checking in with your past self videos, and hopefully all the men who have, um, repressed these emotions, uh, they start leaking out and they get to release them as a healthier method of, um, being instead of like blowing things up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, team, an antidote to the manosphere. Do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I vote to save this because, you know, we’ve been talking about doing something on the manosphere in general, but I kind of like looking at this, what’s beyond the manosphere? How, how might it be rejected in the next year?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, you know, I am surprising myself because I am on the fence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, I, I like a good internet trend. I hope that this will take off, but I wanna see it, um, sort of in the background. I want it to happen without it going, Hey, look what men are doing.You know? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I can just like be, I took note of that. That’s neat. More of that, please. Scroll.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then you’re back in the performative space,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> More labubus.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Although I do wanna see an antidote to the manosphere. I feel like I would scroll past this personally, but I don’t know Morgan, what you think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, you know, I’ve been scrolling past the manosphere content because I don’t wanna see it. Um, and I don’t wanna platform it. Um, and then this, it’s like, I, I like that it’s happening. I, I think it’s good for humanity but I’m gonna scroll because I don’t wanna make a Not All Men episode. Sorry, Chris.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Crushing. Crushing. I mean, do I need a retort? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, uh, so sorry Chris, we are, Chris E. We are scrolling on men being vulnerable online, but we do want more of it in the world. We do want it, we want it to happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll save it on my, my personal feed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well guys, thanks for joining me for Save or Scroll.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. I’ll see you in a year.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks Morgan. This was super fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Thanks Morgan. This was a lot of fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right, well, that is it for Save or Scroll. We’re keeping tabs on everything that we did save, so don’t be surprised if one of those stories shows up as a deep dive in your feed. We’ll be back next week with more Close All Tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nClose All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Hambrick is our editor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? And if you \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>In the last decade, California has passed 42 laws to regulate artificial intelligence, more than any other state, according to \u003ca href=\"https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2025-ai-index-report\">Stanford’s Institute for Human-Centered AI\u003c/a>. So it comes as no surprise that state leaders reacted with ire to President Donald Trump’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/12/eliminating-state-law-obstruction-of-national-artificial-intelligence-policy/\">executive order\u003c/a> slapping down state efforts to regulate AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The clash highlights the growing friction between California’s push for consumer protections and the tech industry’s efforts to neutralize regulation. The executive order follows \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/the-silicon-valley-campaign-to-win-trump-over-on-ai-regulation-214bd6bd\">previous failures\u003c/a> led by Silicon Valley venture capitalist David Sacks, now the president’s AI and crypto advisor, to pass a moratorium on state AI regulation through Congress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“President Trump and Davis Sacks aren’t making policy — they’re running a con. And every day, they push the limits to see how far they can take it,” Gov. Gavin Newsom wrote in a statement on Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As an earlier draft of the order circulated in Washington, critics warned it would neuter state laws designed to protect children and adults from the more predatory forms of commercial AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trump’s executive order echoed talking points articulated by Silicon Valley leaders, including calls for a uniform federal regulatory framework, and concerns that state regulations could slow the pace of AI innovation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“POTUS stepping in creates space for builders to focus on innovation while Congress finishes the job,”\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/Collin_McCune/status/1999264399459066212?s=20\"> wrote\u003c/a> Collin McCune, who leads government affairs for the Menlo Park-based venture capital firm Andreessen Horowitz, which is among the companies that have spent tens of millions of dollars to block or weaken Congressional action. “Now lawmakers have to act. Our standing in the global AI race—and the direct benefits Americans will see from it—depend on it,” he added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://twitter.com/RapidResponse47/status/1999257391356125348\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The industry push to get the White House to supersede state legislation is “shortsighted,” said State Sen. Josh Becker, D-Menlo Park, who has worked to pass several of California’s state bills governing AI. “I think they’re going to pay the price in the long run.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But just how big of an effect the order will have on California’s AI regulations is unclear. It includes exemptions for laws that cover child safety, data center infrastructure, state government use of AI and “other topics as shall be determined.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is going to sow massive confusion in the industry,” Becker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Becker is wondering about the future of several AI bills he co-authored, including one regulating AI companion chatbots, due to go into effect in January, which Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/10/13/governor-newsom-signs-bills-to-further-strengthen-californias-leadership-in-protecting-children-online/\">signed\u003c/a> into law as part of a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">broader package\u003c/a> of online safety and emerging-tech protections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Is that affected by this? Because there’s a big part of it that deals with kids and chatbots, but there were parts of the bill that dealt with other things,” Becker said.[aside postID=forum_2010101912169 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2025/11/GettyImages-2203864303-2000x1333.jpg']The executive order is widely expected to prompt legal challenges because only Congress has the authority to override state laws. Speaking in Sacramento on Friday, California Attorney General Rob Bonta said it was too early to determine any legal action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Where it’s headed, and what it intends to do, raises great concerns and flags. But we don’t sue until there’s action that we can take. Sometimes that’s upon the issuance of the executive order. Sometimes it’s later,” said Bonta, whose office has sued the Trump administration 49 times this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bonta’s measured stance contrasts with state lawmakers who see imminent danger in this latest move from the White House.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“President Trump’s executive order is a dangerous attack on states’ constitutional authority to protect our residents from urgent AI harms,” wrote Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, who has authored multiple AI bills regulating everything from algorithmic discrimination and transparency to protections for children and Hollywood creatives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“While the tech industry lobbies for deregulation, women are being victimized by AI-powered nudification apps, artists and creators are having their livelihoods cannibalized without notice, deepfakes are being weaponized for harassment and fraud, and AI systems are perpetuating discrimination in housing, employment, and lending. These aren’t theoretical risks— they’re happening now and demand action,” Bauer-Kahan wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California is not alone in its efforts to regulate AI at the state level. This year, all 50 states and territories introduced AI legislation and 38 states adopted about 100 laws, according to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ncsl.org/state-legislatures-news/details/as-ai-tools-become-commonplace-so-do-concerns\">National Conference of State Legislatures\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This executive order is an outrageous betrayal of the states that, as Congress has stalled, have worked tirelessly to protect their residents from the very real risks of AI,” wrote James Steyer, head of Common Sense Media. The advocacy group has sponsored state bills in California and elsewhere. “Stripping states of their constitutional rights to protect their residents from unsafe AI — while holding critical broadband funding hostage, no less — erases the progress they are making and puts lives in danger,” Steyer wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>In the last decade, California has passed 42 laws to regulate artificial intelligence, more than any other state, according to \u003ca href=\"https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2025-ai-index-report\">Stanford’s Institute for Human-Centered AI\u003c/a>. So it comes as no surprise that state leaders reacted with ire to President Donald Trump’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/12/eliminating-state-law-obstruction-of-national-artificial-intelligence-policy/\">executive order\u003c/a> slapping down state efforts to regulate AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The clash highlights the growing friction between California’s push for consumer protections and the tech industry’s efforts to neutralize regulation. The executive order follows \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/the-silicon-valley-campaign-to-win-trump-over-on-ai-regulation-214bd6bd\">previous failures\u003c/a> led by Silicon Valley venture capitalist David Sacks, now the president’s AI and crypto advisor, to pass a moratorium on state AI regulation through Congress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“President Trump and Davis Sacks aren’t making policy — they’re running a con. And every day, they push the limits to see how far they can take it,” Gov. Gavin Newsom wrote in a statement on Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As an earlier draft of the order circulated in Washington, critics warned it would neuter state laws designed to protect children and adults from the more predatory forms of commercial AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trump’s executive order echoed talking points articulated by Silicon Valley leaders, including calls for a uniform federal regulatory framework, and concerns that state regulations could slow the pace of AI innovation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“POTUS stepping in creates space for builders to focus on innovation while Congress finishes the job,”\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/Collin_McCune/status/1999264399459066212?s=20\"> wrote\u003c/a> Collin McCune, who leads government affairs for the Menlo Park-based venture capital firm Andreessen Horowitz, which is among the companies that have spent tens of millions of dollars to block or weaken Congressional action. “Now lawmakers have to act. Our standing in the global AI race—and the direct benefits Americans will see from it—depend on it,” he added.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>The industry push to get the White House to supersede state legislation is “shortsighted,” said State Sen. Josh Becker, D-Menlo Park, who has worked to pass several of California’s state bills governing AI. “I think they’re going to pay the price in the long run.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But just how big of an effect the order will have on California’s AI regulations is unclear. It includes exemptions for laws that cover child safety, data center infrastructure, state government use of AI and “other topics as shall be determined.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is going to sow massive confusion in the industry,” Becker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Becker is wondering about the future of several AI bills he co-authored, including one regulating AI companion chatbots, due to go into effect in January, which Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/10/13/governor-newsom-signs-bills-to-further-strengthen-californias-leadership-in-protecting-children-online/\">signed\u003c/a> into law as part of a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">broader package\u003c/a> of online safety and emerging-tech protections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Is that affected by this? Because there’s a big part of it that deals with kids and chatbots, but there were parts of the bill that dealt with other things,” Becker said.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>The executive order is widely expected to prompt legal challenges because only Congress has the authority to override state laws. Speaking in Sacramento on Friday, California Attorney General Rob Bonta said it was too early to determine any legal action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Where it’s headed, and what it intends to do, raises great concerns and flags. But we don’t sue until there’s action that we can take. Sometimes that’s upon the issuance of the executive order. Sometimes it’s later,” said Bonta, whose office has sued the Trump administration 49 times this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bonta’s measured stance contrasts with state lawmakers who see imminent danger in this latest move from the White House.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“President Trump’s executive order is a dangerous attack on states’ constitutional authority to protect our residents from urgent AI harms,” wrote Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, who has authored multiple AI bills regulating everything from algorithmic discrimination and transparency to protections for children and Hollywood creatives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“While the tech industry lobbies for deregulation, women are being victimized by AI-powered nudification apps, artists and creators are having their livelihoods cannibalized without notice, deepfakes are being weaponized for harassment and fraud, and AI systems are perpetuating discrimination in housing, employment, and lending. These aren’t theoretical risks— they’re happening now and demand action,” Bauer-Kahan wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California is not alone in its efforts to regulate AI at the state level. This year, all 50 states and territories introduced AI legislation and 38 states adopted about 100 laws, according to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ncsl.org/state-legislatures-news/details/as-ai-tools-become-commonplace-so-do-concerns\">National Conference of State Legislatures\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This executive order is an outrageous betrayal of the states that, as Congress has stalled, have worked tirelessly to protect their residents from the very real risks of AI,” wrote James Steyer, head of Common Sense Media. The advocacy group has sponsored state bills in California and elsewhere. “Stripping states of their constitutional rights to protect their residents from unsafe AI — while holding critical broadband funding hostage, no less — erases the progress they are making and puts lives in danger,” Steyer wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>A member of a Bay Area group that says they are trying to prevent artificial intelligence from ending humanity was again arrested while protesting outside \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a>’s San Francisco headquarters Thursday in apparent violation of a court order.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guido Reichstadter was booked into San Francisco County Jail on Thursday evening, records show, for allegedly violating a judge’s order that barred him from the premises following his previous arrest with members of Stop AI. The group \u003ca href=\"https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/openais-sam-altman-served-subpoena-141003524.html\">made national headlines\u003c/a> last month when a member of their defense team served a subpoena to OpenAI CEO Sam Altman while he was onstage at San Francisco’s Sydney Goldstein Theater with Golden State Warriors head coach Steve Kerr.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Every day is an opportunity to collectively reclaim our integrity and our sanity — to draw the line which says this far and no farther, to end the race to superintelligence — but these days are dwindling rapidly and we do not know which day will be the last before that opportunity is lost to us forever,” Reichstadter \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/wolflovesmelon/status/1996584982396211543\">posted on X\u003c/a> Wednesday while announcing he was planning to continue to protest OpenAI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reichstadter and Stop AI co-founder Sam Kirchner — along with co-defendant Wynd Kaufmyn — are awaiting trial for trespassing and other charges related to their continued protests outside OpenAI’s offices starting last year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attorneys for Altman have attempted to have his subpoena to testify at the criminal trial thrown out, but on Nov. 21, Judge Maria E. Evangelista ruled that that decision should be made by the judge who will be presiding over the trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although the trial was set to start Friday, it was pushed back to Jan. 29. Records show Reichstadter remained in San Francisco County Jail without bond as of Friday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066267\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066267\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-2000x1333.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-2048x1365.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stop AI co-founder Sam Kirchner speaks into a bullhorn outside OpenAI’s headquarters in San Francisco on Feb. 22, 2025. A bench warrant has been issued for Kirchner, who did not appear for a court appearance for trespassing and other charges late last month. Kirchner recently separated from the group. \u003ccite>(Brian Krans/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Also on Nov. 21, Evangelista issued a bench warrant for Kirchner’s arrest when he failed to show for a court hearing. That same day, OpenAI’s offices were locked down following threats authorities believed to have come from Kirchner, as \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/openai-office-lockdown-threat-san-francisco/?_sp=8f666012-7ff2-4d29-8dc9-047bbae3c137.1764640349753\">first reported by Wired\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Nov. 22, Stop AI \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/StopAI_Info/status/1992286218802073981\">posted on social media\u003c/a> that Kirchner assaulted a fellow member of the group. The attack and statements he made caused them to “fear that he might procure a weapon that he could use against employees of companies pursuing artificial superintelligence,” the post said, adding they still care about Kirchner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kirchner has since \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/No_AGI_/status/1991833980795326712\">posted on social media\u003c/a> that he is no longer associated with Stop AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The three co-defendants readily admit they prevented business operations at OpenAI as charged. Rather than setting out to prove their innocence, they said they were taking their misdemeanor charges to court to further raise awareness of their cause. They, among others who express extreme caution around the current development of AI, say there could soon be a point of no return between human intelligence and the artificial intelligence it is rapidly developing and deploying.[aside postID=news_12058013 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/GavinNewsomAISF2.jpg']“The actions that we took from October to February – nonviolently blocking the doors of OpenAI — have gotten attention around the world,” Reichstadter said. “They are the reason why Sam Altman was served a subpoena to appear to testify to the fact that he is consciously endangering the existence of humanity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>OpenAI did not respond to requests for comment. An attorney representing Altman, Gabriel Bronshteyn, declined to comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a statement, Stop AI said the trial “will be the first time in human history where a jury of normal people are asked about the extinction threat that AI poses to humanity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stop AI consists mostly of a small group of people who once lived together in a house in West Oakland. Reichstadter said he left his two teenage children in Miami to move to Oakland to join the fight against the development of potentially harmful AI, while Kirchner — a former electrical engineering tech and neuroscience student — moved from Seattle to found Stop AI in the Bay Area last year. Kaufmyn spent more than 40 years teaching computer sciences at City College of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stop AI members often cite Nobel laureate and “godfather of AI” Geoffrey Hinton, who has said there’s a 20% chance that forms of AI currently being developed could “\u003ca href=\"https://www.cnbc.com/2025/06/17/ai-godfather-geoffrey-hinton-theres-a-chance-that-ai-could-displace-humans.html\">wipe us out\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Of specific concern is artificial general intelligence, which OpenAI is trying to develop and defines as “AI systems that are generally smarter than humans.” \u003ca href=\"https://www.ibm.com/think/topics/artificial-general-intelligence\">Other definitions\u003c/a> suggest it applies to the moment when AI learns to solve problems beyond the limitations it has today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066178\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066178\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie speaks at the opening of the new OpenAI headquarters in Mission Bay in San Francisco on March 10, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While OpenAI says it is developing AGI so it “benefits all of humanity,” Stop AI wants the government to shut it down immediately.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There is no way to prove that something smarter than us will stay safe forever and won’t eventually want something that will lead to our extinction, similar to how we’ve caused the extinction of many less intelligent species, and that’s the risk here,” Kirchner said in an interview at a protest outside OpenAI in February. “They don’t have proof that it will stay safe forever. They’re literally building Skynet in there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even while already facing charges from protests in 2024, Stop AI members continued to protest OpenAI, including in February when they chained the doors to the company’s headquarters on 3rd Street near Chase Center and sat in front of the doors until police removed some of them from the premises.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re gonna lock the doors now to this company,” Kirchner said through a bullhorn. “This company should not exist if it’s trying to build something that they admit could kill us all. So we’re gonna put our bodies on the line and try to prevent them from building that AGI system. And we invite everyone who thinks that what they’re doing is not OK to join us in this act of civil disobedience.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The protest occurred on a Saturday, when OpenAI’s offices were closed.[aside postID=news_12063401 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/OpenAiLawsuitsGetty.jpg']“What’s going on in this business is not a legitimate business. It’s a threat to all of us. We have a right to protect the ones we love. We have a right to protect our own lives. We have the right of necessity to take nonviolent direct action to stop an imminent threat to our lives,” Reichstadter said before putting a steel chain through the handles of the front door of the OpenAI offices and locking it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Soon, he and others sat in front of the door as San Francisco police arrived and detained several people, including Reichstadter and Kaufmyn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ahead of the court hearing on Nov. 21, Kaufmyn and Reichstadter spoke at a press conference about their concerns around AI, its use in war and its potential dangers to future generations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s so many reasons to be concerned about AI, but when I went to these presentations, I learned that the fate of humanity, the existence of every human life on Earth, is at stake, and the time frame is much closer than you would think,” Kaufmyn said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kaufmyn said she’s not afraid to go to jail for protesting OpenAI if it benefits humanity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We fully believe there is a credible risk of human extinction within the next one to three years,” Kaufmyn said. “Imagine if you believed that, as I do, as my co-defendants do, what would you do? We — with heavy hearts and fear — decided that we need to do everything we can to stop this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reichstadter said he’s away from his children because he wants to guarantee them a future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are being pushed towards the edge of a cliff by the reckless actions of these companies, and no one knows how close that edge is,” he said. “It’s our responsibility — everyone who understands this threat — to take direct nonviolent action immediately to end the race to super intelligence, the suicide race, which these companies are leading humanity to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>A member of a Bay Area group that says they are trying to prevent artificial intelligence from ending humanity was again arrested while protesting outside \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a>’s San Francisco headquarters Thursday in apparent violation of a court order.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guido Reichstadter was booked into San Francisco County Jail on Thursday evening, records show, for allegedly violating a judge’s order that barred him from the premises following his previous arrest with members of Stop AI. The group \u003ca href=\"https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/openais-sam-altman-served-subpoena-141003524.html\">made national headlines\u003c/a> last month when a member of their defense team served a subpoena to OpenAI CEO Sam Altman while he was onstage at San Francisco’s Sydney Goldstein Theater with Golden State Warriors head coach Steve Kerr.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Every day is an opportunity to collectively reclaim our integrity and our sanity — to draw the line which says this far and no farther, to end the race to superintelligence — but these days are dwindling rapidly and we do not know which day will be the last before that opportunity is lost to us forever,” Reichstadter \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/wolflovesmelon/status/1996584982396211543\">posted on X\u003c/a> Wednesday while announcing he was planning to continue to protest OpenAI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reichstadter and Stop AI co-founder Sam Kirchner — along with co-defendant Wynd Kaufmyn — are awaiting trial for trespassing and other charges related to their continued protests outside OpenAI’s offices starting last year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attorneys for Altman have attempted to have his subpoena to testify at the criminal trial thrown out, but on Nov. 21, Judge Maria E. Evangelista ruled that that decision should be made by the judge who will be presiding over the trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although the trial was set to start Friday, it was pushed back to Jan. 29. Records show Reichstadter remained in San Francisco County Jail without bond as of Friday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066267\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066267\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-2000x1333.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/IMG_1391-2048x1365.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stop AI co-founder Sam Kirchner speaks into a bullhorn outside OpenAI’s headquarters in San Francisco on Feb. 22, 2025. A bench warrant has been issued for Kirchner, who did not appear for a court appearance for trespassing and other charges late last month. Kirchner recently separated from the group. \u003ccite>(Brian Krans/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Also on Nov. 21, Evangelista issued a bench warrant for Kirchner’s arrest when he failed to show for a court hearing. That same day, OpenAI’s offices were locked down following threats authorities believed to have come from Kirchner, as \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/openai-office-lockdown-threat-san-francisco/?_sp=8f666012-7ff2-4d29-8dc9-047bbae3c137.1764640349753\">first reported by Wired\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Nov. 22, Stop AI \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/StopAI_Info/status/1992286218802073981\">posted on social media\u003c/a> that Kirchner assaulted a fellow member of the group. The attack and statements he made caused them to “fear that he might procure a weapon that he could use against employees of companies pursuing artificial superintelligence,” the post said, adding they still care about Kirchner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kirchner has since \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/No_AGI_/status/1991833980795326712\">posted on social media\u003c/a> that he is no longer associated with Stop AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The three co-defendants readily admit they prevented business operations at OpenAI as charged. Rather than setting out to prove their innocence, they said they were taking their misdemeanor charges to court to further raise awareness of their cause. They, among others who express extreme caution around the current development of AI, say there could soon be a point of no return between human intelligence and the artificial intelligence it is rapidly developing and deploying.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“The actions that we took from October to February – nonviolently blocking the doors of OpenAI — have gotten attention around the world,” Reichstadter said. “They are the reason why Sam Altman was served a subpoena to appear to testify to the fact that he is consciously endangering the existence of humanity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>OpenAI did not respond to requests for comment. An attorney representing Altman, Gabriel Bronshteyn, declined to comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a statement, Stop AI said the trial “will be the first time in human history where a jury of normal people are asked about the extinction threat that AI poses to humanity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stop AI consists mostly of a small group of people who once lived together in a house in West Oakland. Reichstadter said he left his two teenage children in Miami to move to Oakland to join the fight against the development of potentially harmful AI, while Kirchner — a former electrical engineering tech and neuroscience student — moved from Seattle to found Stop AI in the Bay Area last year. Kaufmyn spent more than 40 years teaching computer sciences at City College of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stop AI members often cite Nobel laureate and “godfather of AI” Geoffrey Hinton, who has said there’s a 20% chance that forms of AI currently being developed could “\u003ca href=\"https://www.cnbc.com/2025/06/17/ai-godfather-geoffrey-hinton-theres-a-chance-that-ai-could-displace-humans.html\">wipe us out\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Of specific concern is artificial general intelligence, which OpenAI is trying to develop and defines as “AI systems that are generally smarter than humans.” \u003ca href=\"https://www.ibm.com/think/topics/artificial-general-intelligence\">Other definitions\u003c/a> suggest it applies to the moment when AI learns to solve problems beyond the limitations it has today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066178\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066178\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-05_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie speaks at the opening of the new OpenAI headquarters in Mission Bay in San Francisco on March 10, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While OpenAI says it is developing AGI so it “benefits all of humanity,” Stop AI wants the government to shut it down immediately.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There is no way to prove that something smarter than us will stay safe forever and won’t eventually want something that will lead to our extinction, similar to how we’ve caused the extinction of many less intelligent species, and that’s the risk here,” Kirchner said in an interview at a protest outside OpenAI in February. “They don’t have proof that it will stay safe forever. They’re literally building Skynet in there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even while already facing charges from protests in 2024, Stop AI members continued to protest OpenAI, including in February when they chained the doors to the company’s headquarters on 3rd Street near Chase Center and sat in front of the doors until police removed some of them from the premises.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re gonna lock the doors now to this company,” Kirchner said through a bullhorn. “This company should not exist if it’s trying to build something that they admit could kill us all. So we’re gonna put our bodies on the line and try to prevent them from building that AGI system. And we invite everyone who thinks that what they’re doing is not OK to join us in this act of civil disobedience.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The protest occurred on a Saturday, when OpenAI’s offices were closed.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“What’s going on in this business is not a legitimate business. It’s a threat to all of us. We have a right to protect the ones we love. We have a right to protect our own lives. We have the right of necessity to take nonviolent direct action to stop an imminent threat to our lives,” Reichstadter said before putting a steel chain through the handles of the front door of the OpenAI offices and locking it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Soon, he and others sat in front of the door as San Francisco police arrived and detained several people, including Reichstadter and Kaufmyn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ahead of the court hearing on Nov. 21, Kaufmyn and Reichstadter spoke at a press conference about their concerns around AI, its use in war and its potential dangers to future generations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s so many reasons to be concerned about AI, but when I went to these presentations, I learned that the fate of humanity, the existence of every human life on Earth, is at stake, and the time frame is much closer than you would think,” Kaufmyn said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kaufmyn said she’s not afraid to go to jail for protesting OpenAI if it benefits humanity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We fully believe there is a credible risk of human extinction within the next one to three years,” Kaufmyn said. “Imagine if you believed that, as I do, as my co-defendants do, what would you do? We — with heavy hearts and fear — decided that we need to do everything we can to stop this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reichstadter said he’s away from his children because he wants to guarantee them a future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are being pushed towards the edge of a cliff by the reckless actions of these companies, and no one knows how close that edge is,” he said. “It’s our responsibility — everyone who understands this threat — to take direct nonviolent action immediately to end the race to super intelligence, the suicide race, which these companies are leading humanity to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Since President Trump appointed him as the White House artificial intelligence and cryptocurrency czar, Silicon Valley venture capitalist David Sacks has been in a position to drive policy in both emerging technologies. And according to recent reporting by the New York Times, Sacks has helped formulate policies that benefit him and his tech friends. Scott and Marisa are joined by New York Times reporter Ryan Mac, who was part of the team revealing Sacks’ conflicts of interest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Check out \u003ca class=\"c-link c-link--underline\" href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/political-breakdown\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" data-stringify-link=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/political-breakdown\" data-sk=\"tooltip_parent\">Political Breakdown’s weekly newsletter\u003c/a>, delivered straight to your inbox.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cb>Here are the morning’s top stories on Monday, November 10, 2025…\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California legislators considered dozens of bills related to artificial intelligence this year. Those numbers have spiked as lawmakers grapple with the technology’s increasing presence and possible negative consequences. One point of concern: \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.capradio.org/articles/2025/11/06/with-the-rise-of-ai-californias-data-centers-require-more-water-energy-but-by-how-much/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the impact that generative AI will have on the state’s natural resource\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">s as it becomes an everyday tool for Californians. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Environmental activists are celebrating \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063468/environmentalists-celebrate-retirement-of-platform-esther-a-socal-oil-rig\">the retirement of a Southern California oil rig\u003c/a>, with a celebration at San Francisco’s waterfront. The California State Lands Commission officially finalized the decommission last week.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 class=\"page-title\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.capradio.org/articles/2025/11/06/with-the-rise-of-ai-californias-data-centers-require-more-water-energy-but-by-how-much/\">\u003cstrong>With The Rise Of AI, California’s Data Centers Require More Water, Energy. But By How Much?\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, Governor Gavin Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/09/29/governor-newsom-signs-sb-53-advancing-californias-world-leading-artificial-intelligence-industry/\">signed\u003c/a> into law\u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB53\"> Senate Bill 53\u003c/a>, which would require large model developers like Anthropic and Open AI to be transparent about safety measures they put in place to prevent catastrophic events. The legislation would also create CalCompute, a public cloud infrastructure that expands access to AI resources for researchers, startups and public institutions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was one of several bills lawmakers introduced in Sacramento to regulate the AI industry. Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan authored a bill requiring data centers to report their energy usage. It failed to pass. But she said the work for the bill began with that question, and a desire for more transparency. “As I started to ask questions about what kind of data was going into our understanding around the energy needs of the growing data center industry, it seemed like the answer was there wasn’t great data,” Bauer-Kahan said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Assemblymember Diane Papan authored a similar bill looking to track water use at data centers. It required centers to provide estimates of their expected water use when applying for a business license, and an annual water use report thereafter. These centers generally require large amounts of water to cool down servers and other equipment. “I feel that the more information we have, it’ll help us integrate the growth of data centers into that broader task of climate resilient resource management, particularly as it relates to water,” Papan said. The bill passed through the legislature but was vetoed by Governor Newsom. In a statement, Newsom said he was “reluctant to impose rigid reporting requirements about operational details on this sector without understanding the full impact on businesses and the consumers of this technology.” The decision surprised Papan, who originally described the bill as one that was sure to pass given legislators’ desire to optimize California’s water planning. She said she disagrees with his thinking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Data centers are places that contain the servers needed to provide essential services online, like web searches and video streaming. Large-scale data centers have been around for decades, first coming into existence about thirty years ago. But with the more recent rise of generative AI — the kind used for chatbots like ChatGPT — the water and energy these centers demand has gone up. Shaolei Ren, an associate professor of electrical and computer engineering at UC Riverside, said discussions about the environmental impacts associated with increasing AI use aren’t completely new. Artificial intelligence has been integrated in online platforms for years now — like with YouTube, for example, where AI is used to give tailored video recommendations. But Ren said it wasn’t until after 2020, when the general public became more aware of the integration of generative AI online, that these conversations really took hold. And with the technology’s growth comes a greater demand on resources – in California and the rest of the country. Citing a Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory report, Ren said data centers accounted for 3% of the nation’s energy use in 2020. That’s projected to increase by up to 12% by 2028. Ren said the way in which data centers consume these resources also plays a part in their impact on state resources. A data center may consume the same amount of water in a year as an office building, for example. But if most of that consumption happens during one hot summer month instead of evenly throughout the year, he said that could create a different kind of stress on water resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"routes-Site-routes-Post-Title-__Title__title\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063468/environmentalists-celebrate-retirement-of-platform-esther-a-socal-oil-rig\">\u003cstrong>Environmentalists Celebrate ‘Retirement’ Of Platform Esther, A SoCal Oil Rig\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Environmental activists partied outside the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> Ferry Building on Friday to celebrate the decommission of a Southern California oil rig. The Center for Biological Diversity called the event a “retirement party” for Platform Esther, a soon-to-be decommissioned oil rig off the coast of Orange County.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Activists donned party hats and performed their own rendition of Kool & the Gang’s \u003cem>Celebration\u003c/em>, renamed \u003cem>Decommission. \u003c/em>They danced with a giant inflatable whale, and tore into a blue-iced cake decorated with a paper cutout of an oil rig.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Inside the Ferry Building, the California State Lands Commission officially finalized the decommission at a hearing. “This is actually a historic win. This platform is being retired about fifteen years ahead of the official end of its useful life,” said Ilonka Zlatar, an organizer with Oil and Gas Action Network. “We want to thank the State Lands Commission and the agencies that are standing up and helping us to transition into the clean energy economy that we need.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Platform Esther was first built in 1965 and is located 1.5 miles off the coast of Seal Beach. It was rebuilt in the ’80s after sustaining major damage from a winter storm in 1983. Production officially ceased in August 2025.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>New leases for oil drilling off the coast haven’t been approved since 1984, and past Republican presidents have worked with Democrats in protecting California’s waters from drilling. 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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cb>Here are the morning’s top stories on Monday, November 10, 2025…\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California legislators considered dozens of bills related to artificial intelligence this year. Those numbers have spiked as lawmakers grapple with the technology’s increasing presence and possible negative consequences. One point of concern: \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.capradio.org/articles/2025/11/06/with-the-rise-of-ai-californias-data-centers-require-more-water-energy-but-by-how-much/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the impact that generative AI will have on the state’s natural resource\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">s as it becomes an everyday tool for Californians. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Environmental activists are celebrating \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063468/environmentalists-celebrate-retirement-of-platform-esther-a-socal-oil-rig\">the retirement of a Southern California oil rig\u003c/a>, with a celebration at San Francisco’s waterfront. The California State Lands Commission officially finalized the decommission last week.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 class=\"page-title\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.capradio.org/articles/2025/11/06/with-the-rise-of-ai-californias-data-centers-require-more-water-energy-but-by-how-much/\">\u003cstrong>With The Rise Of AI, California’s Data Centers Require More Water, Energy. But By How Much?\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, Governor Gavin Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/09/29/governor-newsom-signs-sb-53-advancing-californias-world-leading-artificial-intelligence-industry/\">signed\u003c/a> into law\u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB53\"> Senate Bill 53\u003c/a>, which would require large model developers like Anthropic and Open AI to be transparent about safety measures they put in place to prevent catastrophic events. The legislation would also create CalCompute, a public cloud infrastructure that expands access to AI resources for researchers, startups and public institutions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was one of several bills lawmakers introduced in Sacramento to regulate the AI industry. Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan authored a bill requiring data centers to report their energy usage. It failed to pass. But she said the work for the bill began with that question, and a desire for more transparency. “As I started to ask questions about what kind of data was going into our understanding around the energy needs of the growing data center industry, it seemed like the answer was there wasn’t great data,” Bauer-Kahan said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Assemblymember Diane Papan authored a similar bill looking to track water use at data centers. It required centers to provide estimates of their expected water use when applying for a business license, and an annual water use report thereafter. These centers generally require large amounts of water to cool down servers and other equipment. “I feel that the more information we have, it’ll help us integrate the growth of data centers into that broader task of climate resilient resource management, particularly as it relates to water,” Papan said. The bill passed through the legislature but was vetoed by Governor Newsom. In a statement, Newsom said he was “reluctant to impose rigid reporting requirements about operational details on this sector without understanding the full impact on businesses and the consumers of this technology.” The decision surprised Papan, who originally described the bill as one that was sure to pass given legislators’ desire to optimize California’s water planning. She said she disagrees with his thinking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Data centers are places that contain the servers needed to provide essential services online, like web searches and video streaming. Large-scale data centers have been around for decades, first coming into existence about thirty years ago. But with the more recent rise of generative AI — the kind used for chatbots like ChatGPT — the water and energy these centers demand has gone up. Shaolei Ren, an associate professor of electrical and computer engineering at UC Riverside, said discussions about the environmental impacts associated with increasing AI use aren’t completely new. Artificial intelligence has been integrated in online platforms for years now — like with YouTube, for example, where AI is used to give tailored video recommendations. But Ren said it wasn’t until after 2020, when the general public became more aware of the integration of generative AI online, that these conversations really took hold. And with the technology’s growth comes a greater demand on resources – in California and the rest of the country. Citing a Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory report, Ren said data centers accounted for 3% of the nation’s energy use in 2020. That’s projected to increase by up to 12% by 2028. Ren said the way in which data centers consume these resources also plays a part in their impact on state resources. A data center may consume the same amount of water in a year as an office building, for example. But if most of that consumption happens during one hot summer month instead of evenly throughout the year, he said that could create a different kind of stress on water resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"routes-Site-routes-Post-Title-__Title__title\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063468/environmentalists-celebrate-retirement-of-platform-esther-a-socal-oil-rig\">\u003cstrong>Environmentalists Celebrate ‘Retirement’ Of Platform Esther, A SoCal Oil Rig\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Environmental activists partied outside the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> Ferry Building on Friday to celebrate the decommission of a Southern California oil rig. The Center for Biological Diversity called the event a “retirement party” for Platform Esther, a soon-to-be decommissioned oil rig off the coast of Orange County.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Activists donned party hats and performed their own rendition of Kool & the Gang’s \u003cem>Celebration\u003c/em>, renamed \u003cem>Decommission. \u003c/em>They danced with a giant inflatable whale, and tore into a blue-iced cake decorated with a paper cutout of an oil rig.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Inside the Ferry Building, the California State Lands Commission officially finalized the decommission at a hearing. “This is actually a historic win. This platform is being retired about fifteen years ahead of the official end of its useful life,” said Ilonka Zlatar, an organizer with Oil and Gas Action Network. “We want to thank the State Lands Commission and the agencies that are standing up and helping us to transition into the clean energy economy that we need.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Platform Esther was first built in 1965 and is located 1.5 miles off the coast of Seal Beach. It was rebuilt in the ’80s after sustaining major damage from a winter storm in 1983. Production officially ceased in August 2025.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>New leases for oil drilling off the coast haven’t been approved since 1984, and past Republican presidents have worked with Democrats in protecting California’s waters from drilling. But conservation efforts have faced new threats under the current and past Trump administrations, which \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/california/article/trump-offshore-drilling-21116334.php\">recently revealed a proposal\u003c/a> to dramatically ramp up oil drilling off California’s coast to increase the country’s energy independence.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>FRESNO, Calif. — Gov. Gavin Newsom this month signed a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12007520/how-artificial-intelligence-is-changing-the-reports-police-write\">first-of-its-kind California law\u003c/a> requiring police to disclose how they use generative artificial intelligence, a move aimed at boosting transparency and public trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California is among the first states to address the issue. KQED \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12007520/how-artificial-intelligence-is-changing-the-reports-police-write\">first reported\u003c/a> last October on local departments adopting AI tools. The reporting was cited in the legislative analysis of the bill that ultimately became the law.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Senate Bill 524, signed into law Oct. 10, requires police officers to disclose when they use AI to write police reports. The tools include Draft One, an AI assistant that transcribes and summarizes body-camera footage to produce a draft report, which officers can then revise and edit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Specifically, the law now requires a written disclosure to appear at the bottom of each page of a police report for which Draft One or other similar tools were used. The legislation also requires an “audit trail” that would preserve the original draft as well as identify the source bodycam footage or audio.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Police departments in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12007520/how-artificial-intelligence-is-changing-the-reports-police-write\">East Palo Alto\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kvpr.org/government-politics/2024-11-15/ai-is-helping-fresno-police-officers-write-their-reports-could-it-outperform-them\">Fresno\u003c/a> were among the first in the state to adopt the technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Axon, the company that developed Draft One, told KVPR and KQED last year that its developers built safeguards into their software. For example, officers must fill in prompts within the generated report, then sign off on the report’s accuracy before it can be submitted. The tool also includes a disclaimer that Draft One was used, though police agencies have thus far been able to customize where in a report it’s placed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12006138\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12006138\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-06-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"The torso of a person dressed in a police uniform holds a hand over a body camera.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-06-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-06-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-06-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-06-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-06-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-06-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An East Palo Alto Police officer’s Axon body camera in East Palo Alto on Sept. 23, 2024. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Police departments have said the technology saves officers significant time, and even that some AI-generated reports are better than the ones written entirely by officers. Nevertheless, the bill arose out of concerns that bias or errors generated by AI software could make their way into final incident reports, which play a key role in charging, detaining and sentencing suspects.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kate Chatfield, executive director of the California Public Defenders Association, which sponsored the bill, said she’s grateful the measure became law.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Due process requires transparency,” Chatfield wrote in a public statement. “Everyone in the legal system — judges, juries, attorneys and the accused — deserve to know who wrote the police report.”[aside postID=news_12050772 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-03-KQED.jpg?ver=1727233046']“With SB 524, California is sending a clear message: Innovation in policing must be tethered to accountability,” state Sen. Jesse Arreguín, who wrote the bill, said in the statement. “No more opaque reports, no more guessing whether AI shaped the narrative.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kevin Little, a defense attorney in Fresno, said the law is a step in the right direction, but not a true remedy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My own experience with AI in an unrelated context leads me to conclude that AI platforms have a significant amount of user bias and tend to support the agendas of the user,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Larry Bowlan, a spokesperson for the Fresno Police Department, said the agency had already implemented some of the safeguards now required by the law and does not expect the new rules to be especially burdensome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our AI-powered narrative assistant … already generates a disclosure and requires our users to sign acknowledgements. Draft One also already produces the requisite audit trail,” he wrote in an email. “We are actively working with our vendor on the best solution for preserving and storing the first draft provided by the assistant, as well as a minor tweak to ensure the disclosure is present on each printed page, rather than just the first page as it is now.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A spokesperson for the East Palo Alto Department said his agency has no official response to the law at this time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12007615\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12007615\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-15-KQED-5.jpg\" alt=\"A woman dressed in a police uniform sits at a desk in an office looking at a computer screen.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-15-KQED-5.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-15-KQED-5-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-15-KQED-5-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-15-KQED-5-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-15-KQED-5-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-15-KQED-5-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">East Palo Alto Police Officer Wendy Venegas reviews body camera footage and uses Axon’s Draft One AI-based system to draft reports based on the audio from the camera at police headquarters in East Palo Alto on Sept. 23, 2024. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Opponents of the bill included the California Police Chiefs Association and the Police Officers Research Association of California, a police union advocacy and lobbying group. The Chiefs Association did not respond to a request for comment. In a statement, PORAC President Brian R. Marvel said the signed version of the law is an improvement over earlier drafts.[aside postID=news_12060365 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/SamAltmanGetty.jpg']“In its original form, SB 524 would have put significant administrative burden on already short-staffed police forces and created broad liability by requiring agencies to retain every AI-generated draft, interim, and final version of a report, each labeled with AI disclosure language,” he wrote. “PORAC advocated to amend this bill … We were pleased to see several of these amendments taken, with the final version of the bill significantly narrowed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Axon representative Victoria Keough said the company is committed to complying with all state and federal laws, including SB 524.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When developing AI for public safety, transparency and accountability are essential,” Keough wrote in a statement. “Responsible innovation remains at the core of how Axon designs and delivers new technology.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The new requirements go into effect on Jan. 1, 2026.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kvpr.org/people/kerry-klein\">\u003cem>Kerry Klein\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem> is a reporter and editor with KVPR in Fresno. Additional reporting was provided by KQED’s \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/slewis\">\u003cem>Sukey Lewis\u003c/em>\u003c/a>. \u003cem>The story was produced with support from \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californianewsroom\">\u003cem>The California Newsroom\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, a collaboration of public media outlets throughout the state. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>FRESNO, Calif. — Gov. Gavin Newsom this month signed a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12007520/how-artificial-intelligence-is-changing-the-reports-police-write\">first-of-its-kind California law\u003c/a> requiring police to disclose how they use generative artificial intelligence, a move aimed at boosting transparency and public trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California is among the first states to address the issue. KQED \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12007520/how-artificial-intelligence-is-changing-the-reports-police-write\">first reported\u003c/a> last October on local departments adopting AI tools. The reporting was cited in the legislative analysis of the bill that ultimately became the law.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Senate Bill 524, signed into law Oct. 10, requires police officers to disclose when they use AI to write police reports. The tools include Draft One, an AI assistant that transcribes and summarizes body-camera footage to produce a draft report, which officers can then revise and edit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Specifically, the law now requires a written disclosure to appear at the bottom of each page of a police report for which Draft One or other similar tools were used. The legislation also requires an “audit trail” that would preserve the original draft as well as identify the source bodycam footage or audio.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Police departments in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12007520/how-artificial-intelligence-is-changing-the-reports-police-write\">East Palo Alto\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kvpr.org/government-politics/2024-11-15/ai-is-helping-fresno-police-officers-write-their-reports-could-it-outperform-them\">Fresno\u003c/a> were among the first in the state to adopt the technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Axon, the company that developed Draft One, told KVPR and KQED last year that its developers built safeguards into their software. For example, officers must fill in prompts within the generated report, then sign off on the report’s accuracy before it can be submitted. The tool also includes a disclaimer that Draft One was used, though police agencies have thus far been able to customize where in a report it’s placed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12006138\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12006138\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-06-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"The torso of a person dressed in a police uniform holds a hand over a body camera.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-06-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-06-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-06-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-06-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-06-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-06-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An East Palo Alto Police officer’s Axon body camera in East Palo Alto on Sept. 23, 2024. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Police departments have said the technology saves officers significant time, and even that some AI-generated reports are better than the ones written entirely by officers. Nevertheless, the bill arose out of concerns that bias or errors generated by AI software could make their way into final incident reports, which play a key role in charging, detaining and sentencing suspects.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kate Chatfield, executive director of the California Public Defenders Association, which sponsored the bill, said she’s grateful the measure became law.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Due process requires transparency,” Chatfield wrote in a public statement. “Everyone in the legal system — judges, juries, attorneys and the accused — deserve to know who wrote the police report.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“With SB 524, California is sending a clear message: Innovation in policing must be tethered to accountability,” state Sen. Jesse Arreguín, who wrote the bill, said in the statement. “No more opaque reports, no more guessing whether AI shaped the narrative.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kevin Little, a defense attorney in Fresno, said the law is a step in the right direction, but not a true remedy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My own experience with AI in an unrelated context leads me to conclude that AI platforms have a significant amount of user bias and tend to support the agendas of the user,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Larry Bowlan, a spokesperson for the Fresno Police Department, said the agency had already implemented some of the safeguards now required by the law and does not expect the new rules to be especially burdensome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our AI-powered narrative assistant … already generates a disclosure and requires our users to sign acknowledgements. Draft One also already produces the requisite audit trail,” he wrote in an email. “We are actively working with our vendor on the best solution for preserving and storing the first draft provided by the assistant, as well as a minor tweak to ensure the disclosure is present on each printed page, rather than just the first page as it is now.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A spokesperson for the East Palo Alto Department said his agency has no official response to the law at this time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12007615\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12007615\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-15-KQED-5.jpg\" alt=\"A woman dressed in a police uniform sits at a desk in an office looking at a computer screen.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-15-KQED-5.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-15-KQED-5-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-15-KQED-5-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-15-KQED-5-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-15-KQED-5-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-15-KQED-5-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">East Palo Alto Police Officer Wendy Venegas reviews body camera footage and uses Axon’s Draft One AI-based system to draft reports based on the audio from the camera at police headquarters in East Palo Alto on Sept. 23, 2024. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Opponents of the bill included the California Police Chiefs Association and the Police Officers Research Association of California, a police union advocacy and lobbying group. The Chiefs Association did not respond to a request for comment. In a statement, PORAC President Brian R. Marvel said the signed version of the law is an improvement over earlier drafts.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“In its original form, SB 524 would have put significant administrative burden on already short-staffed police forces and created broad liability by requiring agencies to retain every AI-generated draft, interim, and final version of a report, each labeled with AI disclosure language,” he wrote. “PORAC advocated to amend this bill … We were pleased to see several of these amendments taken, with the final version of the bill significantly narrowed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Axon representative Victoria Keough said the company is committed to complying with all state and federal laws, including SB 524.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When developing AI for public safety, transparency and accountability are essential,” Keough wrote in a statement. “Responsible innovation remains at the core of how Axon designs and delivers new technology.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The new requirements go into effect on Jan. 1, 2026.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kvpr.org/people/kerry-klein\">\u003cem>Kerry Klein\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem> is a reporter and editor with KVPR in Fresno. Additional reporting was provided by KQED’s \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/slewis\">\u003cem>Sukey Lewis\u003c/em>\u003c/a>. \u003cem>The story was produced with support from \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californianewsroom\">\u003cem>The California Newsroom\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, a collaboration of public media outlets throughout the state. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "ChatGPT Will Soon Allow Adults to Generate Erotica. Is This the Future We Want?",
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"content": "\u003cp>OpenAI isn’t the first developer to announce plans to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\">offer erotic content on its chatbot\u003c/a>. But the blowback against the tech company’s decision to loosen restrictions this week has been bigger, given the San Francisco-based company’s promise to ensure its AI\u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/our-structure/\"> benefits all of humanity\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The most significant change will roll out in December, when OpenAI will allow more comprehensive age-gating, allowing verified adults to generate erotic content using the tool — “as part of our ‘treat adult users like adults’ principle,” OpenAI CEO Sam \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/sama/status/1978129344598827128\">Altman posted Tuesday\u003c/a> on the social media platform X.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Consumer advocates say OpenAI is following the lead of xAI’s Grok, which offers loosely moderated “adult” modes with minimal age verification, raising concerns that teenage users may have access to explicit content. Meta AI is believed to be following xAI’s lead as well, and its back and forth over whether it is intentionally pushing mature content to minors has \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-senator-hawley-launches-probe-into-meta-ai-policies-2025-08-15/\">prompted\u003c/a> U.S. Sen. Josh Hawley, R-Missouri, to investigate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We made ChatGPT pretty restrictive to make sure we were being careful with mental health issues. We realize this made it less useful/enjoyable to many users who had no mental health problems, but given the seriousness of the issue, we wanted to get this right,” Altman wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The announcement came less than two months after the company was sued by the parents of Adam Raine, a teenager who \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12054490/child-safety-groups-demand-mental-health-guardrails-after-california-teens-suicide-using-chatgpt\">died by suicide\u003c/a> earlier this year, for ChatGPT allegedly providing him with specific advice on how to kill himself — setting off a firestorm of news coverage and comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11989313\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11989313\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/GettyImages-2155035557-scaled-e1760733694503.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The OpenAI ChatGPT logo. \u003ccite>(Jaap Arriens/NurPhoto via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Altman delivered \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/sama/status/1978539332215681076\">a follow-up\u003c/a> on Wednesday. “We will still not allow things that cause harm to others, and we will treat users who are having mental health crises very different from users who are not … But we are not the elected moral police of the world. In the same way that society differentiates other appropriate boundaries (R-rated movies, for example), we want to do a similar thing here,” Altman wrote, although it remains unclear whether OpenAI will extend erotica to its AI voice, image and video generation tools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Comparing content moderation of chatbot interactions with movie ratings is not really useful,” wrote Irina Raicu, director of the Internet Ethics program at the Markkula Center for Applied Ethics at Santa Clara University. “It downplays both the nature and the extent of the problems that we’re seeing when people get more and more dependent on and influenced by chatbot ‘relationships.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mark Cuban, the entrepreneur, investor and media personality, argued much the same in a string of \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/mcuban/status/1978317936336028016\">posts on X\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t see how OpenAI can age-gate successfully enough. I’m also not sure that it can’t psychologically damage young adults. We just don’t know yet how addictive LLMs can be. Which, in my OPINION, means that parents and schools, that would otherwise want to use ChatGPT because of its current ubiquity, will decide not to use it,” Cuban wrote.[aside postID=news_12059714 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/GavinNewsomAISF1.jpg']Others see the drive for paying subscribers and increased profit behind the move. As a private company, OpenAI does not release its shareholder reports publicly. However, \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-10-02/openai-completes-share-sale-at-record-500-billion-valuation?accessToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJzb3VyY2UiOiJTdWJzY3JpYmVyR2lmdGVkQXJ0aWNsZSIsImlhdCI6MTc2MDcxODQwMSwiZXhwIjoxNzYxMzIzMjAxLCJhcnRpY2xlSWQiOiJUM0hLMkNHUFdDSEIwMCIsImJjb25uZWN0SWQiOiJBM0VCRjM5ODM4RDc0RDI4QUJDREM4MDZDMDA5RTVBMiJ9.ADGZysjoeNVhUDWXwiuAxieyKueee-676dgJIAM9BvQ\">Bloomberg\u003c/a> recently reported that OpenAI has completed a deal to help employees sell shares in the company at a $500 billion valuation. According to Altman, ChatGPT is already used by \u003ca href=\"https://techcrunch.com/2025/10/06/sam-altman-says-chatgpt-has-hit-800m-weekly-active-users/\">800 million weekly active users\u003c/a>. With so much investment at stake, OpenAI is under pressure to grow its subscriber base. The company has also raised billions of dollars for a historic infrastructure buildout, an investment OpenAI eventually needs to pay back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is no secret that sexual content is one of the most popular and lucrative aspects of the internet,” wrote Jennifer King, a privacy and data policy fellow at the Stanford University Institute for Human-Centered Artificial Intelligence. She noted that nearly 20 U.S. states have passed laws \u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2025/01/16/adult-website-age-verification-states\">requiring age verification for online adult content\u003c/a> sites.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“By openly embracing business models that allow access to adult content, mainstream providers like OpenAI will face the burden of demonstrating that they have robust methods for excluding children under 18 and potentially adults under the age of 21,” King said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>AI chatbots appear to be going the way of social media, said California Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-San Ramon, whose bill that would have required child safety guardrails for companion chatbots was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">vetoed earlier this week\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11802216\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11802216\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut.jpg\" alt=\"Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan says local jurisdictions need the power to stop a wildfire disaster before it starts. The assemblymember and other state lawmakers announced a bill to expand enforcement actions against PG&E and other utilities on February, 18, 2020.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-1832x1374.jpg 1832w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-1376x1032.jpg 1376w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-1044x783.jpg 1044w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-632x474.jpg 632w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-536x402.jpg 536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan on Feb. 18, 2020. \u003ccite>(Eli Walsh/Bay City News)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“My fear is that we are on a path to creating the next, frankly, more addictive, more harmful version of social media for our children,” Bauer-Kahan told KQED. “I do not think that the addictive features in these chatbots that result in our children having relationships with a chatbot instead of their fellow humans is a positive thing, and the experts \u003ca href=\"https://cdt.org/insights/hand-in-hand-schools-embrace-of-ai-connected-to-increased-risks-to-students/\">confirm that\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>OpenAI did not comment for this story, but the company has written that it’s \u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/index/teen-safety-freedom-and-privacy/\">working\u003c/a> on an under-18 version of ChatGPT, which will redirect minors to age-appropriate content. A couple of weeks ago, OpenAI announced it’s rolling out safety features for minors, including an age prediction system and a way for \u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/index/introducing-parental-controls/\">parents\u003c/a> to control their teens’ ChatGPT accounts. This week, OpenAI announced the formation of \u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/index/expert-council-on-well-being-and-ai/\">an expert council \u003c/a>of mental health professionals to advise the company on well-being and AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In mid-September, the Federal Trade Commission launched an \u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2025/09/ftc-launches-inquiry-ai-chatbots-acting-companions\">inquiry\u003c/a> into seven AI chatbot developers, including xAI, Meta and OpenAI, “seeking information on how these firms measure, test, and monitor potentially negative impacts of this technology on children and teens.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the most part, a couple of dozen \u003ca href=\"https://techcrunch.com/2025/09/06/the-growing-debate-over-expanding-age-verification-laws/\">states\u003c/a> and their \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/attachments/press-docs/AI%20Chatbot_FINAL%20%2844%29.pdf\">attorneys general\u003c/a> have taken the lead on regulation, enacting measures like age verification and requiring many online platforms to verify users’ identities before granting access. East Bay Assemblymember Buffy Wicks won the \u003ca href=\"https://a14.asmdc.org/press-releases/20250909-google-meta-among-tech-leaders-and-child-advocates-voicing-support-wicks\">support of major tech\u003c/a> companies for her measure, \u003ca href=\"https://a14.asmdc.org/press-releases/20250602-asm-wicks-bill-protect-kids-online-passes-assembly-bipartisan-support\">AB 1043\u003c/a>, which was just signed into law by Gov. Gavin Newsom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But any parent knows it’s easy for children to sidestep those controls, or reach out to older siblings or friends who can help them, Bauer-Kahan said. She said she sees a coincidence in the fact that the veto of her toughest bill was announced on Monday, and Altman’s announcement was posted on Tuesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Here was a bill that was really requiring very clear, safe-by-design AI for children with real liability. And I think that was further than the industry wanted California to go. I just found the timing of the veto and then this announcement about access to erotica too coincidental not to call out,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>OpenAI isn’t the first developer to announce plans to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\">offer erotic content on its chatbot\u003c/a>. But the blowback against the tech company’s decision to loosen restrictions this week has been bigger, given the San Francisco-based company’s promise to ensure its AI\u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/our-structure/\"> benefits all of humanity\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The most significant change will roll out in December, when OpenAI will allow more comprehensive age-gating, allowing verified adults to generate erotic content using the tool — “as part of our ‘treat adult users like adults’ principle,” OpenAI CEO Sam \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/sama/status/1978129344598827128\">Altman posted Tuesday\u003c/a> on the social media platform X.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Consumer advocates say OpenAI is following the lead of xAI’s Grok, which offers loosely moderated “adult” modes with minimal age verification, raising concerns that teenage users may have access to explicit content. Meta AI is believed to be following xAI’s lead as well, and its back and forth over whether it is intentionally pushing mature content to minors has \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-senator-hawley-launches-probe-into-meta-ai-policies-2025-08-15/\">prompted\u003c/a> U.S. Sen. Josh Hawley, R-Missouri, to investigate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We made ChatGPT pretty restrictive to make sure we were being careful with mental health issues. We realize this made it less useful/enjoyable to many users who had no mental health problems, but given the seriousness of the issue, we wanted to get this right,” Altman wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The announcement came less than two months after the company was sued by the parents of Adam Raine, a teenager who \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12054490/child-safety-groups-demand-mental-health-guardrails-after-california-teens-suicide-using-chatgpt\">died by suicide\u003c/a> earlier this year, for ChatGPT allegedly providing him with specific advice on how to kill himself — setting off a firestorm of news coverage and comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11989313\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11989313\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/GettyImages-2155035557-scaled-e1760733694503.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The OpenAI ChatGPT logo. \u003ccite>(Jaap Arriens/NurPhoto via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Altman delivered \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/sama/status/1978539332215681076\">a follow-up\u003c/a> on Wednesday. “We will still not allow things that cause harm to others, and we will treat users who are having mental health crises very different from users who are not … But we are not the elected moral police of the world. In the same way that society differentiates other appropriate boundaries (R-rated movies, for example), we want to do a similar thing here,” Altman wrote, although it remains unclear whether OpenAI will extend erotica to its AI voice, image and video generation tools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Comparing content moderation of chatbot interactions with movie ratings is not really useful,” wrote Irina Raicu, director of the Internet Ethics program at the Markkula Center for Applied Ethics at Santa Clara University. “It downplays both the nature and the extent of the problems that we’re seeing when people get more and more dependent on and influenced by chatbot ‘relationships.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mark Cuban, the entrepreneur, investor and media personality, argued much the same in a string of \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/mcuban/status/1978317936336028016\">posts on X\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t see how OpenAI can age-gate successfully enough. I’m also not sure that it can’t psychologically damage young adults. We just don’t know yet how addictive LLMs can be. Which, in my OPINION, means that parents and schools, that would otherwise want to use ChatGPT because of its current ubiquity, will decide not to use it,” Cuban wrote.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Others see the drive for paying subscribers and increased profit behind the move. As a private company, OpenAI does not release its shareholder reports publicly. However, \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-10-02/openai-completes-share-sale-at-record-500-billion-valuation?accessToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJzb3VyY2UiOiJTdWJzY3JpYmVyR2lmdGVkQXJ0aWNsZSIsImlhdCI6MTc2MDcxODQwMSwiZXhwIjoxNzYxMzIzMjAxLCJhcnRpY2xlSWQiOiJUM0hLMkNHUFdDSEIwMCIsImJjb25uZWN0SWQiOiJBM0VCRjM5ODM4RDc0RDI4QUJDREM4MDZDMDA5RTVBMiJ9.ADGZysjoeNVhUDWXwiuAxieyKueee-676dgJIAM9BvQ\">Bloomberg\u003c/a> recently reported that OpenAI has completed a deal to help employees sell shares in the company at a $500 billion valuation. According to Altman, ChatGPT is already used by \u003ca href=\"https://techcrunch.com/2025/10/06/sam-altman-says-chatgpt-has-hit-800m-weekly-active-users/\">800 million weekly active users\u003c/a>. With so much investment at stake, OpenAI is under pressure to grow its subscriber base. The company has also raised billions of dollars for a historic infrastructure buildout, an investment OpenAI eventually needs to pay back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is no secret that sexual content is one of the most popular and lucrative aspects of the internet,” wrote Jennifer King, a privacy and data policy fellow at the Stanford University Institute for Human-Centered Artificial Intelligence. She noted that nearly 20 U.S. states have passed laws \u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2025/01/16/adult-website-age-verification-states\">requiring age verification for online adult content\u003c/a> sites.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“By openly embracing business models that allow access to adult content, mainstream providers like OpenAI will face the burden of demonstrating that they have robust methods for excluding children under 18 and potentially adults under the age of 21,” King said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>AI chatbots appear to be going the way of social media, said California Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-San Ramon, whose bill that would have required child safety guardrails for companion chatbots was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">vetoed earlier this week\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11802216\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11802216\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut.jpg\" alt=\"Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan says local jurisdictions need the power to stop a wildfire disaster before it starts. The assemblymember and other state lawmakers announced a bill to expand enforcement actions against PG&E and other utilities on February, 18, 2020.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-1832x1374.jpg 1832w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-1376x1032.jpg 1376w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-1044x783.jpg 1044w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-632x474.jpg 632w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/02/RS41373_IMG_0396-qut-536x402.jpg 536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan on Feb. 18, 2020. \u003ccite>(Eli Walsh/Bay City News)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“My fear is that we are on a path to creating the next, frankly, more addictive, more harmful version of social media for our children,” Bauer-Kahan told KQED. “I do not think that the addictive features in these chatbots that result in our children having relationships with a chatbot instead of their fellow humans is a positive thing, and the experts \u003ca href=\"https://cdt.org/insights/hand-in-hand-schools-embrace-of-ai-connected-to-increased-risks-to-students/\">confirm that\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>OpenAI did not comment for this story, but the company has written that it’s \u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/index/teen-safety-freedom-and-privacy/\">working\u003c/a> on an under-18 version of ChatGPT, which will redirect minors to age-appropriate content. A couple of weeks ago, OpenAI announced it’s rolling out safety features for minors, including an age prediction system and a way for \u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/index/introducing-parental-controls/\">parents\u003c/a> to control their teens’ ChatGPT accounts. This week, OpenAI announced the formation of \u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/index/expert-council-on-well-being-and-ai/\">an expert council \u003c/a>of mental health professionals to advise the company on well-being and AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In mid-September, the Federal Trade Commission launched an \u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2025/09/ftc-launches-inquiry-ai-chatbots-acting-companions\">inquiry\u003c/a> into seven AI chatbot developers, including xAI, Meta and OpenAI, “seeking information on how these firms measure, test, and monitor potentially negative impacts of this technology on children and teens.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the most part, a couple of dozen \u003ca href=\"https://techcrunch.com/2025/09/06/the-growing-debate-over-expanding-age-verification-laws/\">states\u003c/a> and their \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/attachments/press-docs/AI%20Chatbot_FINAL%20%2844%29.pdf\">attorneys general\u003c/a> have taken the lead on regulation, enacting measures like age verification and requiring many online platforms to verify users’ identities before granting access. East Bay Assemblymember Buffy Wicks won the \u003ca href=\"https://a14.asmdc.org/press-releases/20250909-google-meta-among-tech-leaders-and-child-advocates-voicing-support-wicks\">support of major tech\u003c/a> companies for her measure, \u003ca href=\"https://a14.asmdc.org/press-releases/20250602-asm-wicks-bill-protect-kids-online-passes-assembly-bipartisan-support\">AB 1043\u003c/a>, which was just signed into law by Gov. Gavin Newsom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But any parent knows it’s easy for children to sidestep those controls, or reach out to older siblings or friends who can help them, Bauer-Kahan said. She said she sees a coincidence in the fact that the veto of her toughest bill was announced on Monday, and Altman’s announcement was posted on Tuesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Here was a bill that was really requiring very clear, safe-by-design AI for children with real liability. And I think that was further than the industry wanted California to go. I just found the timing of the veto and then this announcement about access to erotica too coincidental not to call out,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When ChatGPT launched in 2022, it kicked off what some have called the “AI hype machine” — a frenzy of promotion and investment that has sent some tech companies’ valuations soaring to record heights. Meanwhile, computational linguist Emily M. Bender and AI researcher and sociologist Alex Hanna have proudly worn the titles of “AI hype busters,” critiquing the industry’s loftiest claims and pointing out the real-world harms behind this wave of excitement. What began as a satirical podcast is now a book, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://thecon.ai/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI Con\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How to Fight Big Tech’s Hype and Create the Future We Want\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. In this episode, Alex and Emily explain why the very term “AI” is misleading, how AI boosters and doomers are really flip sides of the same coin, and why we should question the AI inevitability narrative. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5696998106\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/emilymbender.bsky.social\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily Bender\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, professor of linguistics the University of Washington\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/alexhanna.bsky.social\">Alex Hanna\u003c/a>, director of research at the Distributed AI Research Institute\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://thecon.ai/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI Con: How to Fight Big Tech’s Hype and Create the Future We Want\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Emily Bender and Alex Hanna\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.dair-institute.org/maiht3k/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Mystery AI Hype Theater 3000 Podcast\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Emily M. Bender and Alex Hanna\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.techpolicy.press/ai-hurts-consumers-and-workers-and-isnt-intelligent/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“AI” Hurts Consumers and Workers — and Isn’t Intelligent\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Emily Bender and Alex Hanna, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tech Policy Press\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://lithub.com/on-the-very-real-dangers-of-the-artificial-intelligence-hype-machine/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the Very Real Dangers of the Artificial Intelligence Hype Machine: Emily M. Bender and Alex Hanna Explore AI History, the Cold War, and a Fatally Overhyped Idea \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Emily M. Bender, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">LitHub\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/sora-2-content-violation-guardrails-error/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People Are Crashing Out Over Sora 2’s New Guardrails\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Samantha Cole, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">404 Media\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://futurism.com/artificial-intelligence/sora-2-financial-problem\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sora 2 Has a Huge Financial Problem\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Victor Tangermann, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Futurism\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/05/20/1116327/ai-energy-usage-climate-footprint-big-tech/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We did the math on AI’s energy footprint. Here’s the story you haven’t heard.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — James O’Donnell and Casey Crownhart, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A few weeks ago, OpenAI launched an app, Sora. It’s a vertical video social platform, similar to TikTok, except all the videos are generated by the company’s AI image generator, Sora 2. Within days, the app was a copyright infringement nightmare. There were videos of SpongeBob cooking meth, unsanctioned Rick and Morty ads for crypto startups, and many, many videos of open AI CEO Sam Altman doing depraved things to copyrighted characters. Like the one where he brutally barbecues and carves up Pikachu. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[AI CEO Sam Altman] Pikachu on the grill here. It’s already got a beautiful char and it smells like somebody plugged in a chicken. Let’s give it a flip. I’m gonna carve it into some thick steaks. Look at that. Crust on the outside, pink and juicy in the middle. Cheers.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these 10 second videos require an immense amount of computing power, which is extremely costly to maintain. In a blog post, Sam Altman admitted that the company still needs to figure out how to make money off of Sora. He wrote, “People are generating much more than we expected per user, and a lot of videos are being generated for very small audiences.” Facing heat from copyright holders like Disney and Nintendo, Altman also announced extra guardrails for the app to curb infringement. Now, users are complaining that everything they try to generate using Sora 2 gets flagged as a violation of the copyrighted content policy. They’re already getting bored of the app. This whole cycle has been described as the AI hype machine. Big investments are made based on big promises of innovation, disruption, revolution. This hype fuels more investment, which, in turn, fuels the hype. The cycle continues when a new product launches. Meta, for example, launched its own AI social video app, called Vibes, last month too, which was quickly forgotten about when Sora launched. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI hype is effectively premised on fear of missing out. It is the fear that if you don’t get onto this new technology, you are going to be left behind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Alex Hanna, a sociologist and the Director of Research at the Distributed AI Research Institute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’re a corporate manager, you’re going to have your competitors just leave you in the dust. If you are a teacher, you are doing a disservice to your students by not preparing them for the job market of the future. If you were a student, you were going to miss out on all the skills and all your classmates are going to be outperforming you. And as a worker, you will be doing things the old way, the analog way, and everyone is going to be outpacing you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alex and her co-author, Emily M. Bender, recently published a book, The AI Con, How to Fight Big Tech’s Hype and Create the Future We Want. Emily runs the computational linguistics program at the University of Washington. This is a field of study that combines human language with machine learning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I often get asked the question, well aren’t you worried that students are going to get left behind? Etc. And my answer to that is often, where is everybody going? Like, this metaphor of left behind suggests that people are running off into some brilliant future. I just don’t see it, you know, setting aside the fact that the technology doesn’t do what it’s being sold to do, but that is overhyped and over promised. The idea that we’d be better off with instead of interacting with people at all stages, interacting with screens that that’s just not the future that I want. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, we’re talking about the AI hype machine, when it started, how it’s fed, and why a growing corner of critics say they see right through it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right, like we always do, we’re starting by opening a new tab. What is P-Doom? In their book, The AI Con, Alex and Emily talk about these two groups. There are the AI boosters, the people who are optimistic that AI will pave the way to our utopian future. Then there are the AI doomers: the people that catastrophize, and believe that AI progress will usher in an era of societal collapse and human extinction. It’s very Matrix. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from the film “The Matrix] The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But before we break this down further, let’s start by defining our terms. Here’s Emily. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Artificial intelligence does not refer to a coherent set of technologies, and it has throughout its history, since it was coined by John McCarthy in 1955, basically been used to sell this idea of some magic do-everything technology in order to get money. Initially, it was research funding and then DOD money and now a lot of it is venture capital money. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and the way that this has proliferated in the modern day is that so many things get called AI. So that could be automated decision-making systems used for determining whether someone gets social services. And so that gets looped in, and then we also get recommendation systems, things like the TikTok algorithm, the Instagram Reels algorithm, pick your short-form video. But then, it’s really manifest in these large language models and diffusion models that are looped into the category of generative AI.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You start this book from this one moment in 2023, when Chuck Schumer at the time, the Senate majority leader, held a series of forums around AI. Can you take us back to that moment and like set the scene for us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, late 2023, Chuck Schumer is convening the eighth of total nine Senate Insight forums around AI, and he asks folks, this is very weird, he asks, “what is folks’ probability of doom?” And this is abbreviated as P(doom), and for this instance, it’s an audio platform, that is P, open parentheses, doom, closed parentheses. And he also asked, “what people’s pee hope is.” So this means what is your probability that there’s going to be some kind of a doom scenario, in which through, you know, hook or crook, some kind of thing called AI is going to outperform or outsmart humans and take over and lead to human extinction. And in the book, we start and we say, well, this is the wrong question. But also if you’re looking at harms that are happening in the here and now, there are many that exist, whether that be deep fake porn being made out of non-consensual adults and children, the use of automated decision-making and weapons targeting, especially in Gaza, and then we also talk about students having their exams effectively being judged by these automated tools. So talking about P(doom) in this register is asking the wrong question and focusing on the wrong things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But oftentimes it looks like the doomers, the people with a high P(doom) value, the people who take that question seriously in the first place, um, and the boosters, the people who say this is gonna solve all our problems, are like the opposite ends of a spectrum. And that is how these people present themselves, it is how the media often presents what’s going on, and it is very misleading. I think that one of the points that we make is that doomerism is another kind of AI hype, because it’s saying, our system is very powerful. It’s so powerful, it’s going to kill us all, is a way of saying it’s very powerful, but also we make the point that the doomers and the boosters are two sides of the same coin. And it, I think, becomes very clear if you look at it this way, which is to say, the doomers say, “AI is a thing, it’s imminent, it’s inevitable, and it’s gonna kill us all.” And the boosters say, “AI’s a thing, it’s imminent, it’s inevitable, and it is gonna solve all of our problems.” And it’s pretty easy to see these are the same position with just a different twist at the end. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the funny thing about this boosterism, doomerism dichotomy is that these are many of the same people or they run in many of same circles. So, you know, there was this document that was put out called AI 2027, in which it ends with humanity dying and the kind of choose your own adventure. There’s only two endings here. The choose your own adventure and one of them, you know everyone dies. But the lead author of this works at OpenAI. And there’s many such cases of people who are working on quote unquote, “AI alignment”, who are in these industries. So, it’s again not as if they’re against the building of AI, or we should just say no, it’s actually a very narrow segment of people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You described this industry as the AI hype machine, the modern AI hype machine, what does it look like? I mean, who are the players? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, the players are many of the big tech players that we know. So Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Meta, but with some new entrants, OpenAI being the most significant one. Um, and along with OpenAI, a few offshoots, so Anthropic is kind of the most notable one. And then the company that’s creating the shovels for the gold rush, so that’s your Nvidia, and then your Taiwanese semiconductor manufacturing company, abbreviated as TSMC. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to say that we see AI hype not just originating from those big players, like that is a large source of it. Also we hear over and over and again about people working in various businesses being told by their higher ups that they have to try this new AI thing. And so there’s this sort of secondary promulgation of hype that comes from middle management and up that have been sold on the idea that this is going to, you know, really increase productivity. And, you know, on the one hand, it’s a very useful excuse for doing layoffs that they may have otherwise already wanted to do, but then on the other hand, some people seem to have really bought into the idea. So they tell the people working for them, you have to spend time figuring out how to make yourself more productive by using these so-called AI tools, because everyone’s telling me that that’s the way of the future. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, the obvious way people are, these players, are feeding into the AI hype machine is by extolling the virtues of AI, or, you know, kind of spreading this very doomerous sci-fi rhetoric. But what other strategies are being used to feed this machine? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So one important strategy is what I sometimes call citations to the future. So people will say, yeah, yeah. It’s got problems now, but it’s going to do all of these things. And I think it really is the only technology that we are expected to evaluate based on promises of what it will be doing, right? That car that I just bought only gets, you know, 35 miles to the gallon. But that’s OK, because the later one’s going to get 50. We don’t talk about it that way, except with the so-called AI technology.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, citations to the future is one big strategy and another one is anthropomorphizing language, talking about things that have happened as if the computer systems themselves did it of their own volition and autonomously instead of people having used the system to do it or done something in order to build the system. So it’ll be something like, AI needs lots and lots of data. Well, no, people who want to build the system that they’re calling AI are amassing lots and lots of data in order to build them, or AI is thirsty, it needs lots of water, or AI was able to identify, you know, something in a blurry image. It’s like — in no sense, right? \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People used XYZ tool in order do a thing, or in order to build these tools, they are using lots of of water and so on. So this anthropomorphizing language sort of shifts the people out of the frame and hides a bunch of accountability, and at the same time, makes the systems sound cooler than they are. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alex and Emily also pointed out that players in the AI industry push this adoption of AI into our everyday lives by really trying to humanize the product. We’re gonna dive into that in a new tab. First, a quick break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Time for a new tab! Are we really just meat machines?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the technology itself, like the way people talk about large language models as AI, um, ChatGPT, Claude, Grok. Many people understand that these models are basically predicting the words that most often go together. But can you break it down further? Like, what’s really going on under the hood there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, the first very important lesson is that when we say word, we’re actually talking about two things. We’re talking about the way the word is spelled and pronounced and what it is used to mean. And one thing that makes that hard to keep in mind is that as proficient speakers of the languages we speak, pretty much anytime we encounter the spelling or sound of a word, we are also encountering what the person using it is using it to talk about. And so we always experience the form and meaning together. But a language model, so that the core component of something like Gemini or Grok or Claude or ChatGPT is literally a system for modeling which bits of words go with which other bits of words in whatever the input collection of text was to create that model. And so what we have are models that are very good at putting literally like spellings of parts of words next to each other in a way that looks like something somebody might say. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily and Alex have come up with a few phrases that illustrate what large language models really are, which also describe the limitations of this tech. We’ve got synthetic text extruding machine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The choice of the word extrude is very intentional because it’s a little gross. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Racist pile of linear algebra. Spicy autocomplete. And one phrase that really took off, stochastic parrot. Emily coined the phrase in a research paper she co-authored in 2020. Parrots can mimic human speech, but whether they can really comprehend it, that’s dubious. Stochastic comes from probability theory. It means randomly determined. So a stochastic parrot essentially mimics language in a random order and does so convincingly, but it doesn’t understand it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starting with OpenAI’s GPT-2 and GPT3, they were using it to create synthetic text. And so one of the things we worried about in that paper is what happens if someone comes across synthetic text and doesn’t know that it was synthetic? What we didn’t realize at the time is that people would be happy to look at synthetic text while knowing that it’s synthetic. That is very surprising to me. And so the phrase stochastic parrots was this attempt to make vivid what’s going on, to help people understand why the output of a language model run to repeatedly answer the question, what’s a likely next word, is not the same thing as text produced by a person or group of people with something to communicate. And what’s happened, it’s been fascinating as a linguist to watch that phrase go out into the world, so for the first little while, it was people referring to the paper, and then it sort of became people talking about, um, that claim that large language models are not understanding, they’re just repeatedly predicting a likely next word. And then it got picked up or interpreted as an insult, which is surprising to me because in order for it to be an insult, the thing that it’s being applied to would have to the kind of thing that could be insulted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then in 2022, Sam Altman tweeted, I am a stochastic parrot and so are you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think what happens when Sam Altman picks it up and tweets that is that it is, on the one hand, sort of an attempt to reclaim what is understood as an insult or slur by people in that mindset, but also, and very importantly, it is about minimizing what it is to be human, so that he can claim that the system that he’s built is as good as a person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily and Alex say this concept of comparing humans to, essentially, flesh machines is a classic move in the AI hype machine playbook. It’s reducing humanity and what it means to be human to programming, like Eliza in the 60s. Eliza was an early natural language processing program designed to mimic a therapist. Think of it as a great, great, great, grand chatbot of ChatGPT. A lot of people, from academics to government leaders to tech industry giants, bought into the Eliza hype. And that freaked out Eliza’s own creator, Joseph Weizenbaum. In a book he published in the 70s, Weizenbaum warned that machines would never be able to make the same decisions that humans make because they don’t have human empathy. His criticism of AI caused a stir in the research community. And decades later, AI boosters are still making that same claim. That humans and machines aren’t that different. But what does this devaluing of humanity really mean for us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, it means a lot of things. It really seems to emphasize that there is, kind of, aspects of human behavior that can just be reduced to our observable outputs, right? Humans are just things that output language or output actions, when that’s not true. Humans have a much more vivid internal life. Um, we think about others. Uh, we think about, kind of, co-presence, but it’s more about saying how we’re comparing ourselves to machines that are programmed by people and those people in those institutions have particular types of incentives to make machines that behave as such. So that’s the kind of implications that it has and it also has the implications of other kinds of moves into humanism, dehumanization and what that does and how we treat people and with regards to dignity and propriety of rights. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you also give concrete examples of where we see this kind of, uh, devaluing of humans? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think if we say that humans can be reduced to their outputs, that that leads to lots of problems. And one is we end up saying, you know, the form of, or the words that teachers and students say in the classroom is the learning situation. And so we can replace the teacher with a system for outputting words and then those students will get as much and maybe it’ll be personalized and it’ll better. And that is dehumanizing to teachers clearly and also to students because it removes, you know, everything that is about the student and teacher’s internal life and about their relationship and about their community from the situation. But I think it’s also really important in terms of the workforce more generally, that basically if we say, well, humans like large language models are systems for outputting words, then it’s a very small step to basically saying the whole value of this person is how many words they can output and doing a very, very dehumanizing work environment to people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also see this in other domains like the Amazon work floor and the ways that these mini robots flit from place to place and the so-called quote unquote pickers. People on Amazon work warehouses have to pick things and then deliver them. So there’s a lot of implications for that and I think also in seeing the humanity in other folks and how we treat other folks. You know, if they’re merely meat machines, then what does it say about how we view them with respect to, kind of, personal rights and human rights and what kind of rights they should be afforded? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This idea of human beings just being walking meat machines is chilling. It definitely creeped me out. What are the other real world consequences of this thinking? Let’s open a new tab. Who’s really harmed by AI hype? Alex and Emily have said that their goal with writing the AI con is to reduce the harm caused by AI hype. Automation, for example, doesn’t just replace jobs. Healthcare providers are increasingly relying on AI products for medical triage to decide which patients to see first. Free legal representation, a guaranteed right in criminal cases, can be replaced by a lawyer using a chat bot. All of this potentially lowers the quality of these services. And introduces bias into these systems. Artists and other creatives, meanwhile, are struggling to make ends meet as AI generators, sometimes trained on their own work, are used as a cheaper, faster alternative. And then there’s how large language models are disrupting our whole information ecosystem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a metaphor we use in the book, the idea that information is being output from these models and results in information ecosystem spills, like toxic spills that really can’t be cleaned up. There’s not really a reliable way to detect synthetic text. And so you’re having to deal with and navigate and try to understand whether something on the internet is actually reflective of truth claims that are being made and perhaps researched more deeply by human individuals. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve written that the strongest critiques against AI boosterism come from black, brown, poor, queer, and disabled scholars and activists. Can you talk about some examples of these critiques and why these groups specifically are so uniquely positioned to make them? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we wrote about that in the register of thinking about the ways in which systems, in here, I want to say data-driven systems, not just large language models, but even different systems just don’t work for black, brown communities, queer, and trans people, and then people like refugees and people on the move. The kind of pioneering work of Drs. Temnit Gebru and Joy Buolamwini in their paper Gender Shades talks about facial analysis systems, specifically the way that facial analysis systems do very poorly on darker-skinned women and that there’s a huge delta between darker-skinned women and lighter-skinned men. Sasha Costanza-Chock talks about how tools like TSA scanners do very poorly on trans people. Typically flagging genitals as anomalies or chest areas as anomalities, and then the kind of disparities of how systems talk about women. So there’s been a few papers talking about the ways in which different tools, in this case a word embedding space, makes associations between people and occupation. So, man is to doctor, women is to… typically, the completion is nurse, so it makes presuppositions of this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of this stuff effectively happens in large-language models [laughter] and happens in image generation models as well. There’s some great research by the Bloomberg data team that shows that if you input something like a nurse, uh, typically or a housekeeper, it outputs a kind of a phenotypically looking darker-skinned woman. If you type in CEO, white man. And so those kinds of elements are the bias element of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ruha Benjamin sums it up really nicely in this beautiful essay called The New Artificial Intelligentsia that appeared in the LA Review of Books in 2024. And she’s talking about these ideas of transhumanism and merging with the machines. She says this zealous desire to transcend humanity ignores the fact that we have not all had the chance to be fully human. My interpretation of what she’s saying is that the people that society does not accord full humanity to have a very different experience of technology, both in the ways, as Alex is saying, it’s being used on them, in the ways that doesn’t work well for them and just in the way that it intrudes on their life. And so people who have the privilege of not experiencing any of that tend to be less sensitized to what’s going on and to have a less informed perspective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this less-informed perspective encourages AI boosters, who continue to fuel the hype machine. This means investing in and launching new products at a breakneck pace, often overlooking the real-world impact. The MIT Technology Review recently reported that generating one 5-second AI video uses about 3.4 million joules, the equivalent of running a microwave for over an hour. At scale this amount of energy consumption is devastating for the environment. And running all of this comes at a steep price for AI companies, too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like we talked about earlier, OpenAI’s Sora app is proving to be wildly expensive, with more users generating videos than actually watching them. And after the copyright fiasco and subsequent new guardrails, it seems like some initial adopters are already moving on. Can the hype machine sustain this kind of frenzied investment with such limited return? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re opening one last tab. Is the height machine breaking? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you think the AI hype bubble is going to burst? I mean, like, are there economic critiques? You’ve heard the social ones, but is there anything pointing to the AI height bubble possibly at least deflating? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, the problem is that there’s so much capital expenditure going into building things like data centers, and they’re going into these massive data center build out where, you know, the kind of projections and how much OpenAI, Microsoft, Google, Amazon, and Meta are spending on this all is astronomical. I mean, hundreds of billions of dollars, just some of the largest technological infrastructure projects that we’ve ever seen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the same time, OpenAI again, the company that has the most queries to Chat GPT, people using most of its products, is making revenue on the order of maybe $10 billion a year. So it’s just orders of magnitude less. And the kind of metaphor that’s being used as well, we have to build the railroads first, and then once the rail roads get going, we can put rail cars in them. But that metaphor doesn’t work at all. People are already using the product. And, you know, companies are already saying, we’re not getting a lot of value out of this. You know, there was an, something that was coming out of MIT, which said 95% of companies just haven’t really gained value from quote unquote AI. So what’s happening? This is very bubble shaped, you now, and I don’t know how the story ends, but it’s very alarming that these four to seven companies are propping up the US and world economy right now, so what happens when the bubble deflates or bursts, it’s not going to be good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like you said, um, you finished this book in September 2024. The AI industry has only grown since then. What have you learned about the state of the AI hype machine from the reception to your book? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would say what I’ve learned the most about is about the resilience of people and the importance of connection and community. So the antidote to the hype is a variety of things, one is ridicule as praxis, as we say in the book, and also solidarity and labor movements, but also just sort of connection. And one form of that connection is that there’s a lot of people who are, who feel isolated in a workplace or a social circle where everyone around them seems just completely gaga for this technology and they’re the odd one out. And so one of the joys of both our podcasts and this book has been to find those people and be found by those people who say, oh, so glad I’m not the only one. And then they can form community with other people who have the same reaction and I think that that is super important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the things we grapple a lot just like within Close All Tabs is where to draw the line with AI use, you know. And again, that’s complicated. What is AI? For example, we don’t use ChatGPT, but we use an AI transcription tool for our interviews. Are there conditions under which using large language models, AI tools, are reasonable or justified, appropriate? And then what’s your message to the average listener who maybe uses ChatGPT in their daily but they’re not necessarily AI boosters and not necessarily AI doomers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Um, so to the first question, I would say I never call it an AI transcription tool. I would say automatic transcription, right? And that is a use case where, you know, you want to look at the labor conditions of the people who produced it, where the training data come from. And it’s also a use case where you are well positioned to check the output and see if it’s working well for you, right. You’ve got something that has been recorded, you’ve got an automatically produced transcript, you’re presumably going through and correcting it. And if it is wrong all the time, or if you have one that is particularly bad for non-Anglo names, for example, you might start looking for something that’s better. So that is a case of automation that I think can be okay. You still want to look into who produced it. Are there privacy implications? Can I use this tool without uploading my data to somebody else and so on? But there’s reasonable uses and reasonable ways to produce automatic transcription. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we’re talking about chat bots of the form of ChatGPT, I don’t see reasonable use cases there. And partially we know that the labor and environmental costs are extraordinarily high, that this is not produced ethically. But even setting that aside, every time you turn to ChatGPT for information, you’re cutting yourself off from important sense-making. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the examples I like to use, if you think about an old fashioned search engine that gave you back, you know, the 10 blue links and you’ve got a medical query, what might come back in those links is a link to, you know something like the Mayo Clinic and then your regional university medical center, so in the Bay area, you know UCSF. And you might get a link to Dr. Oz’s page and you might get a link to a discussion forum where people with the same medical questions are talking to each other. And you can then look at those and understand the information that’s there based on what you know about the Mayo Clinic and UCSF and Dr. Oz and discussion forums. But that also helps you continue to update what you know, about those kinds of sites. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whereas if you asked a chatbot and you got back something that was just sort of some paper mache made up out of some combination of what’s in those sites, you not only don’t know how to contextualize what you’ve seen, but you’re also cut off from ability to continue to understand the information environment. And then very importantly, if you think about that discussion forum, any given, you know, sentence from that discussion forum interpreted as information, you’re going to want to take with a big grain of salt. But the chance to connect with people who are going through the same medical journey is priceless. And there’s a, the scholar Chris Gilliard describes these technologies as technologies of isolation. And I think it’s really important to think about anytime you might turn to a chat bot- what would you have done three years ago? What would you have done when ChatGPT was not in your world and what are you missing out on by not doing that now? The connections that you would make with people, the ongoing maintenance of relationships, the building of community, the deeper sense of what’s going on in the world around you, all of these are precious and I think not to be thrown away for the semblance of convenience. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then I think the final thing that I would say is look out for, identify, and reject the inevitability narrative. So the tech companies would like us to believe that AI is the future, it’s definitely coming. Even if you don’t like it, you have to resign yourself to it. And you’ll get people saying, well, it’s here to stay, we have to learn what to live with it. And I refuse that. I say that is also a bid to steal our agency because the future is not written. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Those are all my questions. Thank you so much for joining us.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, thank you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a pleasure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close all of these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Jen Chien. Close All tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our senior editor. Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien, who’s KQED’s director of podcasts. Original music, including our theme song and credits by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Follow us on Instagram at CloseAllTabsPod, or TikTok at Close All Tabs. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "When ChatGPT launched in 2022, it kicked off what some have called the “AI hype machine” — a frenzy of promotion and investment that has sent some tech companies’ valuations soaring to record heights. Meanwhile, computational linguist Emily M. Bender and AI researcher and sociologist Alex Hanna have proudly worn the titles of “AI hype busters,” critiquing the industry’s loftiest claims and pointing out the real-world harms behind this wave of excitement. What began as a satirical podcast is now a book, The AI Con: How to Fight Big Tech’s Hype and Create the Future We Want. In this episode, Alex and Emily explain why the very term “AI” is misleading, how AI boosters and doomers are really flip sides of the same coin, and why we should question the AI inevitability narrative.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When ChatGPT launched in 2022, it kicked off what some have called the “AI hype machine” — a frenzy of promotion and investment that has sent some tech companies’ valuations soaring to record heights. Meanwhile, computational linguist Emily M. Bender and AI researcher and sociologist Alex Hanna have proudly worn the titles of “AI hype busters,” critiquing the industry’s loftiest claims and pointing out the real-world harms behind this wave of excitement. What began as a satirical podcast is now a book, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://thecon.ai/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI Con\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How to Fight Big Tech’s Hype and Create the Future We Want\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. In this episode, Alex and Emily explain why the very term “AI” is misleading, how AI boosters and doomers are really flip sides of the same coin, and why we should question the AI inevitability narrative. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5696998106\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/emilymbender.bsky.social\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily Bender\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, professor of linguistics the University of Washington\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/alexhanna.bsky.social\">Alex Hanna\u003c/a>, director of research at the Distributed AI Research Institute\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://thecon.ai/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI Con: How to Fight Big Tech’s Hype and Create the Future We Want\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Emily Bender and Alex Hanna\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.dair-institute.org/maiht3k/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Mystery AI Hype Theater 3000 Podcast\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Emily M. Bender and Alex Hanna\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.techpolicy.press/ai-hurts-consumers-and-workers-and-isnt-intelligent/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“AI” Hurts Consumers and Workers — and Isn’t Intelligent\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Emily Bender and Alex Hanna, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tech Policy Press\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://lithub.com/on-the-very-real-dangers-of-the-artificial-intelligence-hype-machine/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the Very Real Dangers of the Artificial Intelligence Hype Machine: Emily M. Bender and Alex Hanna Explore AI History, the Cold War, and a Fatally Overhyped Idea \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Emily M. Bender, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">LitHub\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/sora-2-content-violation-guardrails-error/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People Are Crashing Out Over Sora 2’s New Guardrails\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Samantha Cole, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">404 Media\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://futurism.com/artificial-intelligence/sora-2-financial-problem\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sora 2 Has a Huge Financial Problem\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Victor Tangermann, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Futurism\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/05/20/1116327/ai-energy-usage-climate-footprint-big-tech/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We did the math on AI’s energy footprint. Here’s the story you haven’t heard.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — James O’Donnell and Casey Crownhart, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A few weeks ago, OpenAI launched an app, Sora. It’s a vertical video social platform, similar to TikTok, except all the videos are generated by the company’s AI image generator, Sora 2. Within days, the app was a copyright infringement nightmare. There were videos of SpongeBob cooking meth, unsanctioned Rick and Morty ads for crypto startups, and many, many videos of open AI CEO Sam Altman doing depraved things to copyrighted characters. Like the one where he brutally barbecues and carves up Pikachu. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[AI CEO Sam Altman] Pikachu on the grill here. It’s already got a beautiful char and it smells like somebody plugged in a chicken. Let’s give it a flip. I’m gonna carve it into some thick steaks. Look at that. Crust on the outside, pink and juicy in the middle. Cheers.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these 10 second videos require an immense amount of computing power, which is extremely costly to maintain. In a blog post, Sam Altman admitted that the company still needs to figure out how to make money off of Sora. He wrote, “People are generating much more than we expected per user, and a lot of videos are being generated for very small audiences.” Facing heat from copyright holders like Disney and Nintendo, Altman also announced extra guardrails for the app to curb infringement. Now, users are complaining that everything they try to generate using Sora 2 gets flagged as a violation of the copyrighted content policy. They’re already getting bored of the app. This whole cycle has been described as the AI hype machine. Big investments are made based on big promises of innovation, disruption, revolution. This hype fuels more investment, which, in turn, fuels the hype. The cycle continues when a new product launches. Meta, for example, launched its own AI social video app, called Vibes, last month too, which was quickly forgotten about when Sora launched. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI hype is effectively premised on fear of missing out. It is the fear that if you don’t get onto this new technology, you are going to be left behind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Alex Hanna, a sociologist and the Director of Research at the Distributed AI Research Institute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’re a corporate manager, you’re going to have your competitors just leave you in the dust. If you are a teacher, you are doing a disservice to your students by not preparing them for the job market of the future. If you were a student, you were going to miss out on all the skills and all your classmates are going to be outperforming you. And as a worker, you will be doing things the old way, the analog way, and everyone is going to be outpacing you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alex and her co-author, Emily M. Bender, recently published a book, The AI Con, How to Fight Big Tech’s Hype and Create the Future We Want. Emily runs the computational linguistics program at the University of Washington. This is a field of study that combines human language with machine learning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I often get asked the question, well aren’t you worried that students are going to get left behind? Etc. And my answer to that is often, where is everybody going? Like, this metaphor of left behind suggests that people are running off into some brilliant future. I just don’t see it, you know, setting aside the fact that the technology doesn’t do what it’s being sold to do, but that is overhyped and over promised. The idea that we’d be better off with instead of interacting with people at all stages, interacting with screens that that’s just not the future that I want. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, we’re talking about the AI hype machine, when it started, how it’s fed, and why a growing corner of critics say they see right through it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right, like we always do, we’re starting by opening a new tab. What is P-Doom? In their book, The AI Con, Alex and Emily talk about these two groups. There are the AI boosters, the people who are optimistic that AI will pave the way to our utopian future. Then there are the AI doomers: the people that catastrophize, and believe that AI progress will usher in an era of societal collapse and human extinction. It’s very Matrix. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from the film “The Matrix] The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But before we break this down further, let’s start by defining our terms. Here’s Emily. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Artificial intelligence does not refer to a coherent set of technologies, and it has throughout its history, since it was coined by John McCarthy in 1955, basically been used to sell this idea of some magic do-everything technology in order to get money. Initially, it was research funding and then DOD money and now a lot of it is venture capital money. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and the way that this has proliferated in the modern day is that so many things get called AI. So that could be automated decision-making systems used for determining whether someone gets social services. And so that gets looped in, and then we also get recommendation systems, things like the TikTok algorithm, the Instagram Reels algorithm, pick your short-form video. But then, it’s really manifest in these large language models and diffusion models that are looped into the category of generative AI.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You start this book from this one moment in 2023, when Chuck Schumer at the time, the Senate majority leader, held a series of forums around AI. Can you take us back to that moment and like set the scene for us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, late 2023, Chuck Schumer is convening the eighth of total nine Senate Insight forums around AI, and he asks folks, this is very weird, he asks, “what is folks’ probability of doom?” And this is abbreviated as P(doom), and for this instance, it’s an audio platform, that is P, open parentheses, doom, closed parentheses. And he also asked, “what people’s pee hope is.” So this means what is your probability that there’s going to be some kind of a doom scenario, in which through, you know, hook or crook, some kind of thing called AI is going to outperform or outsmart humans and take over and lead to human extinction. And in the book, we start and we say, well, this is the wrong question. But also if you’re looking at harms that are happening in the here and now, there are many that exist, whether that be deep fake porn being made out of non-consensual adults and children, the use of automated decision-making and weapons targeting, especially in Gaza, and then we also talk about students having their exams effectively being judged by these automated tools. So talking about P(doom) in this register is asking the wrong question and focusing on the wrong things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But oftentimes it looks like the doomers, the people with a high P(doom) value, the people who take that question seriously in the first place, um, and the boosters, the people who say this is gonna solve all our problems, are like the opposite ends of a spectrum. And that is how these people present themselves, it is how the media often presents what’s going on, and it is very misleading. I think that one of the points that we make is that doomerism is another kind of AI hype, because it’s saying, our system is very powerful. It’s so powerful, it’s going to kill us all, is a way of saying it’s very powerful, but also we make the point that the doomers and the boosters are two sides of the same coin. And it, I think, becomes very clear if you look at it this way, which is to say, the doomers say, “AI is a thing, it’s imminent, it’s inevitable, and it’s gonna kill us all.” And the boosters say, “AI’s a thing, it’s imminent, it’s inevitable, and it is gonna solve all of our problems.” And it’s pretty easy to see these are the same position with just a different twist at the end. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the funny thing about this boosterism, doomerism dichotomy is that these are many of the same people or they run in many of same circles. So, you know, there was this document that was put out called AI 2027, in which it ends with humanity dying and the kind of choose your own adventure. There’s only two endings here. The choose your own adventure and one of them, you know everyone dies. But the lead author of this works at OpenAI. And there’s many such cases of people who are working on quote unquote, “AI alignment”, who are in these industries. So, it’s again not as if they’re against the building of AI, or we should just say no, it’s actually a very narrow segment of people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You described this industry as the AI hype machine, the modern AI hype machine, what does it look like? I mean, who are the players? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, the players are many of the big tech players that we know. So Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Meta, but with some new entrants, OpenAI being the most significant one. Um, and along with OpenAI, a few offshoots, so Anthropic is kind of the most notable one. And then the company that’s creating the shovels for the gold rush, so that’s your Nvidia, and then your Taiwanese semiconductor manufacturing company, abbreviated as TSMC. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to say that we see AI hype not just originating from those big players, like that is a large source of it. Also we hear over and over and again about people working in various businesses being told by their higher ups that they have to try this new AI thing. And so there’s this sort of secondary promulgation of hype that comes from middle management and up that have been sold on the idea that this is going to, you know, really increase productivity. And, you know, on the one hand, it’s a very useful excuse for doing layoffs that they may have otherwise already wanted to do, but then on the other hand, some people seem to have really bought into the idea. So they tell the people working for them, you have to spend time figuring out how to make yourself more productive by using these so-called AI tools, because everyone’s telling me that that’s the way of the future. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, the obvious way people are, these players, are feeding into the AI hype machine is by extolling the virtues of AI, or, you know, kind of spreading this very doomerous sci-fi rhetoric. But what other strategies are being used to feed this machine? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So one important strategy is what I sometimes call citations to the future. So people will say, yeah, yeah. It’s got problems now, but it’s going to do all of these things. And I think it really is the only technology that we are expected to evaluate based on promises of what it will be doing, right? That car that I just bought only gets, you know, 35 miles to the gallon. But that’s OK, because the later one’s going to get 50. We don’t talk about it that way, except with the so-called AI technology.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, citations to the future is one big strategy and another one is anthropomorphizing language, talking about things that have happened as if the computer systems themselves did it of their own volition and autonomously instead of people having used the system to do it or done something in order to build the system. So it’ll be something like, AI needs lots and lots of data. Well, no, people who want to build the system that they’re calling AI are amassing lots and lots of data in order to build them, or AI is thirsty, it needs lots of water, or AI was able to identify, you know, something in a blurry image. It’s like — in no sense, right? \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People used XYZ tool in order do a thing, or in order to build these tools, they are using lots of of water and so on. So this anthropomorphizing language sort of shifts the people out of the frame and hides a bunch of accountability, and at the same time, makes the systems sound cooler than they are. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alex and Emily also pointed out that players in the AI industry push this adoption of AI into our everyday lives by really trying to humanize the product. We’re gonna dive into that in a new tab. First, a quick break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Time for a new tab! Are we really just meat machines?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the technology itself, like the way people talk about large language models as AI, um, ChatGPT, Claude, Grok. Many people understand that these models are basically predicting the words that most often go together. But can you break it down further? Like, what’s really going on under the hood there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, the first very important lesson is that when we say word, we’re actually talking about two things. We’re talking about the way the word is spelled and pronounced and what it is used to mean. And one thing that makes that hard to keep in mind is that as proficient speakers of the languages we speak, pretty much anytime we encounter the spelling or sound of a word, we are also encountering what the person using it is using it to talk about. And so we always experience the form and meaning together. But a language model, so that the core component of something like Gemini or Grok or Claude or ChatGPT is literally a system for modeling which bits of words go with which other bits of words in whatever the input collection of text was to create that model. And so what we have are models that are very good at putting literally like spellings of parts of words next to each other in a way that looks like something somebody might say. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily and Alex have come up with a few phrases that illustrate what large language models really are, which also describe the limitations of this tech. We’ve got synthetic text extruding machine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The choice of the word extrude is very intentional because it’s a little gross. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Racist pile of linear algebra. Spicy autocomplete. And one phrase that really took off, stochastic parrot. Emily coined the phrase in a research paper she co-authored in 2020. Parrots can mimic human speech, but whether they can really comprehend it, that’s dubious. Stochastic comes from probability theory. It means randomly determined. So a stochastic parrot essentially mimics language in a random order and does so convincingly, but it doesn’t understand it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starting with OpenAI’s GPT-2 and GPT3, they were using it to create synthetic text. And so one of the things we worried about in that paper is what happens if someone comes across synthetic text and doesn’t know that it was synthetic? What we didn’t realize at the time is that people would be happy to look at synthetic text while knowing that it’s synthetic. That is very surprising to me. And so the phrase stochastic parrots was this attempt to make vivid what’s going on, to help people understand why the output of a language model run to repeatedly answer the question, what’s a likely next word, is not the same thing as text produced by a person or group of people with something to communicate. And what’s happened, it’s been fascinating as a linguist to watch that phrase go out into the world, so for the first little while, it was people referring to the paper, and then it sort of became people talking about, um, that claim that large language models are not understanding, they’re just repeatedly predicting a likely next word. And then it got picked up or interpreted as an insult, which is surprising to me because in order for it to be an insult, the thing that it’s being applied to would have to the kind of thing that could be insulted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then in 2022, Sam Altman tweeted, I am a stochastic parrot and so are you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think what happens when Sam Altman picks it up and tweets that is that it is, on the one hand, sort of an attempt to reclaim what is understood as an insult or slur by people in that mindset, but also, and very importantly, it is about minimizing what it is to be human, so that he can claim that the system that he’s built is as good as a person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily and Alex say this concept of comparing humans to, essentially, flesh machines is a classic move in the AI hype machine playbook. It’s reducing humanity and what it means to be human to programming, like Eliza in the 60s. Eliza was an early natural language processing program designed to mimic a therapist. Think of it as a great, great, great, grand chatbot of ChatGPT. A lot of people, from academics to government leaders to tech industry giants, bought into the Eliza hype. And that freaked out Eliza’s own creator, Joseph Weizenbaum. In a book he published in the 70s, Weizenbaum warned that machines would never be able to make the same decisions that humans make because they don’t have human empathy. His criticism of AI caused a stir in the research community. And decades later, AI boosters are still making that same claim. That humans and machines aren’t that different. But what does this devaluing of humanity really mean for us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, it means a lot of things. It really seems to emphasize that there is, kind of, aspects of human behavior that can just be reduced to our observable outputs, right? Humans are just things that output language or output actions, when that’s not true. Humans have a much more vivid internal life. Um, we think about others. Uh, we think about, kind of, co-presence, but it’s more about saying how we’re comparing ourselves to machines that are programmed by people and those people in those institutions have particular types of incentives to make machines that behave as such. So that’s the kind of implications that it has and it also has the implications of other kinds of moves into humanism, dehumanization and what that does and how we treat people and with regards to dignity and propriety of rights. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you also give concrete examples of where we see this kind of, uh, devaluing of humans? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think if we say that humans can be reduced to their outputs, that that leads to lots of problems. And one is we end up saying, you know, the form of, or the words that teachers and students say in the classroom is the learning situation. And so we can replace the teacher with a system for outputting words and then those students will get as much and maybe it’ll be personalized and it’ll better. And that is dehumanizing to teachers clearly and also to students because it removes, you know, everything that is about the student and teacher’s internal life and about their relationship and about their community from the situation. But I think it’s also really important in terms of the workforce more generally, that basically if we say, well, humans like large language models are systems for outputting words, then it’s a very small step to basically saying the whole value of this person is how many words they can output and doing a very, very dehumanizing work environment to people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also see this in other domains like the Amazon work floor and the ways that these mini robots flit from place to place and the so-called quote unquote pickers. People on Amazon work warehouses have to pick things and then deliver them. So there’s a lot of implications for that and I think also in seeing the humanity in other folks and how we treat other folks. You know, if they’re merely meat machines, then what does it say about how we view them with respect to, kind of, personal rights and human rights and what kind of rights they should be afforded? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This idea of human beings just being walking meat machines is chilling. It definitely creeped me out. What are the other real world consequences of this thinking? Let’s open a new tab. Who’s really harmed by AI hype? Alex and Emily have said that their goal with writing the AI con is to reduce the harm caused by AI hype. Automation, for example, doesn’t just replace jobs. Healthcare providers are increasingly relying on AI products for medical triage to decide which patients to see first. Free legal representation, a guaranteed right in criminal cases, can be replaced by a lawyer using a chat bot. All of this potentially lowers the quality of these services. And introduces bias into these systems. Artists and other creatives, meanwhile, are struggling to make ends meet as AI generators, sometimes trained on their own work, are used as a cheaper, faster alternative. And then there’s how large language models are disrupting our whole information ecosystem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a metaphor we use in the book, the idea that information is being output from these models and results in information ecosystem spills, like toxic spills that really can’t be cleaned up. There’s not really a reliable way to detect synthetic text. And so you’re having to deal with and navigate and try to understand whether something on the internet is actually reflective of truth claims that are being made and perhaps researched more deeply by human individuals. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve written that the strongest critiques against AI boosterism come from black, brown, poor, queer, and disabled scholars and activists. Can you talk about some examples of these critiques and why these groups specifically are so uniquely positioned to make them? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we wrote about that in the register of thinking about the ways in which systems, in here, I want to say data-driven systems, not just large language models, but even different systems just don’t work for black, brown communities, queer, and trans people, and then people like refugees and people on the move. The kind of pioneering work of Drs. Temnit Gebru and Joy Buolamwini in their paper Gender Shades talks about facial analysis systems, specifically the way that facial analysis systems do very poorly on darker-skinned women and that there’s a huge delta between darker-skinned women and lighter-skinned men. Sasha Costanza-Chock talks about how tools like TSA scanners do very poorly on trans people. Typically flagging genitals as anomalies or chest areas as anomalities, and then the kind of disparities of how systems talk about women. So there’s been a few papers talking about the ways in which different tools, in this case a word embedding space, makes associations between people and occupation. So, man is to doctor, women is to… typically, the completion is nurse, so it makes presuppositions of this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of this stuff effectively happens in large-language models [laughter] and happens in image generation models as well. There’s some great research by the Bloomberg data team that shows that if you input something like a nurse, uh, typically or a housekeeper, it outputs a kind of a phenotypically looking darker-skinned woman. If you type in CEO, white man. And so those kinds of elements are the bias element of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ruha Benjamin sums it up really nicely in this beautiful essay called The New Artificial Intelligentsia that appeared in the LA Review of Books in 2024. And she’s talking about these ideas of transhumanism and merging with the machines. She says this zealous desire to transcend humanity ignores the fact that we have not all had the chance to be fully human. My interpretation of what she’s saying is that the people that society does not accord full humanity to have a very different experience of technology, both in the ways, as Alex is saying, it’s being used on them, in the ways that doesn’t work well for them and just in the way that it intrudes on their life. And so people who have the privilege of not experiencing any of that tend to be less sensitized to what’s going on and to have a less informed perspective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this less-informed perspective encourages AI boosters, who continue to fuel the hype machine. This means investing in and launching new products at a breakneck pace, often overlooking the real-world impact. The MIT Technology Review recently reported that generating one 5-second AI video uses about 3.4 million joules, the equivalent of running a microwave for over an hour. At scale this amount of energy consumption is devastating for the environment. And running all of this comes at a steep price for AI companies, too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like we talked about earlier, OpenAI’s Sora app is proving to be wildly expensive, with more users generating videos than actually watching them. And after the copyright fiasco and subsequent new guardrails, it seems like some initial adopters are already moving on. Can the hype machine sustain this kind of frenzied investment with such limited return? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re opening one last tab. Is the height machine breaking? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you think the AI hype bubble is going to burst? I mean, like, are there economic critiques? You’ve heard the social ones, but is there anything pointing to the AI height bubble possibly at least deflating? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, the problem is that there’s so much capital expenditure going into building things like data centers, and they’re going into these massive data center build out where, you know, the kind of projections and how much OpenAI, Microsoft, Google, Amazon, and Meta are spending on this all is astronomical. I mean, hundreds of billions of dollars, just some of the largest technological infrastructure projects that we’ve ever seen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the same time, OpenAI again, the company that has the most queries to Chat GPT, people using most of its products, is making revenue on the order of maybe $10 billion a year. So it’s just orders of magnitude less. And the kind of metaphor that’s being used as well, we have to build the railroads first, and then once the rail roads get going, we can put rail cars in them. But that metaphor doesn’t work at all. People are already using the product. And, you know, companies are already saying, we’re not getting a lot of value out of this. You know, there was an, something that was coming out of MIT, which said 95% of companies just haven’t really gained value from quote unquote AI. So what’s happening? This is very bubble shaped, you now, and I don’t know how the story ends, but it’s very alarming that these four to seven companies are propping up the US and world economy right now, so what happens when the bubble deflates or bursts, it’s not going to be good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like you said, um, you finished this book in September 2024. The AI industry has only grown since then. What have you learned about the state of the AI hype machine from the reception to your book? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would say what I’ve learned the most about is about the resilience of people and the importance of connection and community. So the antidote to the hype is a variety of things, one is ridicule as praxis, as we say in the book, and also solidarity and labor movements, but also just sort of connection. And one form of that connection is that there’s a lot of people who are, who feel isolated in a workplace or a social circle where everyone around them seems just completely gaga for this technology and they’re the odd one out. And so one of the joys of both our podcasts and this book has been to find those people and be found by those people who say, oh, so glad I’m not the only one. And then they can form community with other people who have the same reaction and I think that that is super important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the things we grapple a lot just like within Close All Tabs is where to draw the line with AI use, you know. And again, that’s complicated. What is AI? For example, we don’t use ChatGPT, but we use an AI transcription tool for our interviews. Are there conditions under which using large language models, AI tools, are reasonable or justified, appropriate? And then what’s your message to the average listener who maybe uses ChatGPT in their daily but they’re not necessarily AI boosters and not necessarily AI doomers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Um, so to the first question, I would say I never call it an AI transcription tool. I would say automatic transcription, right? And that is a use case where, you know, you want to look at the labor conditions of the people who produced it, where the training data come from. And it’s also a use case where you are well positioned to check the output and see if it’s working well for you, right. You’ve got something that has been recorded, you’ve got an automatically produced transcript, you’re presumably going through and correcting it. And if it is wrong all the time, or if you have one that is particularly bad for non-Anglo names, for example, you might start looking for something that’s better. So that is a case of automation that I think can be okay. You still want to look into who produced it. Are there privacy implications? Can I use this tool without uploading my data to somebody else and so on? But there’s reasonable uses and reasonable ways to produce automatic transcription. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we’re talking about chat bots of the form of ChatGPT, I don’t see reasonable use cases there. And partially we know that the labor and environmental costs are extraordinarily high, that this is not produced ethically. But even setting that aside, every time you turn to ChatGPT for information, you’re cutting yourself off from important sense-making. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the examples I like to use, if you think about an old fashioned search engine that gave you back, you know, the 10 blue links and you’ve got a medical query, what might come back in those links is a link to, you know something like the Mayo Clinic and then your regional university medical center, so in the Bay area, you know UCSF. And you might get a link to Dr. Oz’s page and you might get a link to a discussion forum where people with the same medical questions are talking to each other. And you can then look at those and understand the information that’s there based on what you know about the Mayo Clinic and UCSF and Dr. Oz and discussion forums. But that also helps you continue to update what you know, about those kinds of sites. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whereas if you asked a chatbot and you got back something that was just sort of some paper mache made up out of some combination of what’s in those sites, you not only don’t know how to contextualize what you’ve seen, but you’re also cut off from ability to continue to understand the information environment. And then very importantly, if you think about that discussion forum, any given, you know, sentence from that discussion forum interpreted as information, you’re going to want to take with a big grain of salt. But the chance to connect with people who are going through the same medical journey is priceless. And there’s a, the scholar Chris Gilliard describes these technologies as technologies of isolation. And I think it’s really important to think about anytime you might turn to a chat bot- what would you have done three years ago? What would you have done when ChatGPT was not in your world and what are you missing out on by not doing that now? The connections that you would make with people, the ongoing maintenance of relationships, the building of community, the deeper sense of what’s going on in the world around you, all of these are precious and I think not to be thrown away for the semblance of convenience. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then I think the final thing that I would say is look out for, identify, and reject the inevitability narrative. So the tech companies would like us to believe that AI is the future, it’s definitely coming. Even if you don’t like it, you have to resign yourself to it. And you’ll get people saying, well, it’s here to stay, we have to learn what to live with it. And I refuse that. I say that is also a bid to steal our agency because the future is not written. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Those are all my questions. Thank you so much for joining us.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, thank you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a pleasure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close all of these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Jen Chien. Close All tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our senior editor. Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien, who’s KQED’s director of podcasts. Original music, including our theme song and credits by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Follow us on Instagram at CloseAllTabsPod, or TikTok at Close All Tabs. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech",
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"headTitle": "Newsom Vetoes Most-Watched Children’s AI Bill, Signs 16 Others Targeting Tech | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>California Gov. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/gavin-newsom\">Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> vetoed legislation that would have prohibited developers from offering companion AI chatbots for children unless the companies can promise the software won’t encourage harmful behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sacramento players across the political spectrum watched the legislation closely, with advocates issuing press releases, open letters and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\">research reports\u003c/a> in hopes of swaying California’s tech-friendly governor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In his \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/AB-1064-Veto.pdf\">veto message\u003c/a> published Monday, Newsom wrote that AB-1064 could lead to a total ban on minors using conversational AI tools. “AI is already shaping the world, and it is imperative that adolescents learn how to safely interact with AI systems,” Newsom wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re sorely disappointed to see Governor Newsom side with Big Tech over the more than 150 families who have suffered the most unimaginable loss: the passing of their child, encouraged by companion AI,” Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan of Orinda, the bill’s author, wrote in a statement, noting the bill was sponsored by Common Sense Media, California Attorney General Rob Bonta, and more than 20 organizations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“These AI companies know the risks their products pose. They’ve made purposeful design decisions that put kids in harm’s way, creating chatbots that form dangerous emotional bonds with vulnerable young people,” she added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11917730\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11917730\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Assemblywoman Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, on Political Breakdown. \u003ccite>(Guy Marzorati/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We’ve seen suicides lately. We’ve seen all sorts of mental health disruptions caused by AI companions. That said, the fight is just beginning,” Common Sense Media CEO Jim Steyer told KQED. “California is clearly leading the way in the United States and globally on these issues, and the next year or two are going to be absolutely critical in defining regulations, guardrails and a common sense future for the big tech industry.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The trade group TechNet lobbied heavily against the bill, \u003ca href=\"https://www.technet.org/the-impact-of-ca-ab-1064/\">running ads\u003c/a> that warned that Bauer-Kahan’s bill could deny children access to critical tools they need to succeed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We appreciate Governor Newsom’s thoughtful consideration and ultimate veto of this proposed legislation,” wrote Robert Boykin, TechNet’s Executive Director for California and the Southwest. “While TechNet shares the goal of AB 1064, the bill fails to meet its stated objectives while threatening students’ access to valuable AI-driven learning tools, potentially life-saving medical treatments, crisis response interventions, safety mechanisms, and other valuable AI technologies.”[aside postID=news_12059209 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008_ENDOF10_-9-KQED.jpg']The host of AI-related bills that made it to Newsom’s desk this legislative session presented him with a political \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12052617/newsoms-tightrope-walk-between-ai-regulation-and-silicon-valley-cash\">balancing act\u003c/a>, as he eyes a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12043766/newsom-tries-to-find-political-footing-in-clash-with-trump\">run for the White House\u003c/a>. Many of the bills were opposed by trade associations heavily bankrolled by Silicon Valley, and California is home to \u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/lists/ai50/\">32 of the 50 top AI companies\u003c/a> worldwide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As if anticipating the blowback from child safety advocates, Newsom’s office released \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/10/13/governor-newsom-signs-bills-to-further-strengthen-californias-leadership-in-protecting-children-online/\">a list of 16 AI bills\u003c/a> he approved this session, some focused on children. “California has long stood as a bold leader in protecting children from the danger of emerging technology,” the statement read.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the list: SB 243 by Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, which placed softer limits on AI chatbots for kids. Advocacy groups, including Common Sense Media and \u003ca href=\"https://techoversight.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/SB-243-Remove-Support.pdf\">Tech Oversight California\u003c/a>, pulled their support from the bill in mid-September, arguing industry-friendly amendments weakened it and could establish a “dangerous” precedent for other states and countries taking California’s lead on AI regulation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a similar vein, Newsom signed an \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12058013/newsom-signs-california-ai-transparency-bill-tailored-to-meet-tech-industry-tastes\">industry-friendly version\u003c/a> of SB-53 by Sen. Scott Wiener (D-San Francisco), after his original effort became target No. 1 for Silicon Valley lobbyists\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12007323/can-california-still-lead-on-ai-regulation-following-newsoms-veto-of-ai-safety-bill\"> last legislative session\u003c/a> and died on Newsom’s desk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But not all the bills Newsom signed this legislation session lack teeth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>AB 621, for instance, expands the ability of deepfake pornography victims to sue anyone who creates, digitally alters, or distributes a sexually explicit image or video in which they appear to engage in sexual conduct without their consent. The expanded private right of action is considered a notable strength when most other AI bills rely on regulatory enforcement, penalties, or agency reporting to sway business practices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steyer said he was happy to see Newsom’s signature on AB 56, which supporters say will require first-in-the-nation warning labels on social media, similar to what California has mandated on packaging for alcohol and cigarettes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s clear that Gov. Newsom, and also the first partner, Jennifer Siebel Newsom, who’s heavily involved in all this legislation, have listened to parents, and advocacy groups around the state,” Steyer said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "The legislation would have restricted children’s access to AI chatbots, but Newsom sided with the tech industry, saying it would have led to a total ban on some AI tools for adolescents.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>California Gov. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/gavin-newsom\">Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> vetoed legislation that would have prohibited developers from offering companion AI chatbots for children unless the companies can promise the software won’t encourage harmful behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sacramento players across the political spectrum watched the legislation closely, with advocates issuing press releases, open letters and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\">research reports\u003c/a> in hopes of swaying California’s tech-friendly governor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In his \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/AB-1064-Veto.pdf\">veto message\u003c/a> published Monday, Newsom wrote that AB-1064 could lead to a total ban on minors using conversational AI tools. “AI is already shaping the world, and it is imperative that adolescents learn how to safely interact with AI systems,” Newsom wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re sorely disappointed to see Governor Newsom side with Big Tech over the more than 150 families who have suffered the most unimaginable loss: the passing of their child, encouraged by companion AI,” Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan of Orinda, the bill’s author, wrote in a statement, noting the bill was sponsored by Common Sense Media, California Attorney General Rob Bonta, and more than 20 organizations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“These AI companies know the risks their products pose. They’ve made purposeful design decisions that put kids in harm’s way, creating chatbots that form dangerous emotional bonds with vulnerable young people,” she added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11917730\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11917730\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Assemblywoman Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, on Political Breakdown. \u003ccite>(Guy Marzorati/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We’ve seen suicides lately. We’ve seen all sorts of mental health disruptions caused by AI companions. That said, the fight is just beginning,” Common Sense Media CEO Jim Steyer told KQED. “California is clearly leading the way in the United States and globally on these issues, and the next year or two are going to be absolutely critical in defining regulations, guardrails and a common sense future for the big tech industry.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The trade group TechNet lobbied heavily against the bill, \u003ca href=\"https://www.technet.org/the-impact-of-ca-ab-1064/\">running ads\u003c/a> that warned that Bauer-Kahan’s bill could deny children access to critical tools they need to succeed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We appreciate Governor Newsom’s thoughtful consideration and ultimate veto of this proposed legislation,” wrote Robert Boykin, TechNet’s Executive Director for California and the Southwest. “While TechNet shares the goal of AB 1064, the bill fails to meet its stated objectives while threatening students’ access to valuable AI-driven learning tools, potentially life-saving medical treatments, crisis response interventions, safety mechanisms, and other valuable AI technologies.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>The host of AI-related bills that made it to Newsom’s desk this legislative session presented him with a political \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12052617/newsoms-tightrope-walk-between-ai-regulation-and-silicon-valley-cash\">balancing act\u003c/a>, as he eyes a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12043766/newsom-tries-to-find-political-footing-in-clash-with-trump\">run for the White House\u003c/a>. Many of the bills were opposed by trade associations heavily bankrolled by Silicon Valley, and California is home to \u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/lists/ai50/\">32 of the 50 top AI companies\u003c/a> worldwide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As if anticipating the blowback from child safety advocates, Newsom’s office released \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/10/13/governor-newsom-signs-bills-to-further-strengthen-californias-leadership-in-protecting-children-online/\">a list of 16 AI bills\u003c/a> he approved this session, some focused on children. “California has long stood as a bold leader in protecting children from the danger of emerging technology,” the statement read.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the list: SB 243 by Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, which placed softer limits on AI chatbots for kids. Advocacy groups, including Common Sense Media and \u003ca href=\"https://techoversight.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/SB-243-Remove-Support.pdf\">Tech Oversight California\u003c/a>, pulled their support from the bill in mid-September, arguing industry-friendly amendments weakened it and could establish a “dangerous” precedent for other states and countries taking California’s lead on AI regulation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a similar vein, Newsom signed an \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12058013/newsom-signs-california-ai-transparency-bill-tailored-to-meet-tech-industry-tastes\">industry-friendly version\u003c/a> of SB-53 by Sen. Scott Wiener (D-San Francisco), after his original effort became target No. 1 for Silicon Valley lobbyists\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12007323/can-california-still-lead-on-ai-regulation-following-newsoms-veto-of-ai-safety-bill\"> last legislative session\u003c/a> and died on Newsom’s desk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But not all the bills Newsom signed this legislation session lack teeth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>AB 621, for instance, expands the ability of deepfake pornography victims to sue anyone who creates, digitally alters, or distributes a sexually explicit image or video in which they appear to engage in sexual conduct without their consent. The expanded private right of action is considered a notable strength when most other AI bills rely on regulatory enforcement, penalties, or agency reporting to sway business practices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steyer said he was happy to see Newsom’s signature on AB 56, which supporters say will require first-in-the-nation warning labels on social media, similar to what California has mandated on packaging for alcohol and cigarettes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s clear that Gov. Newsom, and also the first partner, Jennifer Siebel Newsom, who’s heavily involved in all this legislation, have listened to parents, and advocacy groups around the state,” Steyer said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
"airtime": "SUN 9pm-10pm",
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"meta": {
"site": "radio",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
"airtime": "THU 10pm, FRI 1am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.commonwealthclub.org/podcasts",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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}
},
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"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"id": "freakonomics-radio",
"title": "Freakonomics Radio",
"info": "Freakonomics Radio is a one-hour award-winning podcast and public-radio project hosted by Stephen Dubner, with co-author Steve Levitt as a regular guest. It is produced in partnership with WNYC.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/freakonomicsRadio.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
"subscribe": {
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
"rss": "https://feeds.feedburner.com/freakonomicsradio"
}
},
"fresh-air": {
"id": "fresh-air",
"title": "Fresh Air",
"info": "Hosted by Terry Gross, \u003cem>Fresh Air from WHYY\u003c/em> is the Peabody Award-winning weekday magazine of contemporary arts and issues. One of public radio's most popular programs, Fresh Air features intimate conversations with today's biggest luminaries.",
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"link": "/radio/program/fresh-air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/381444908/podcast.xml"
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"id": "here-and-now",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510051/podcast.xml"
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},
"hidden-brain": {
"id": "hidden-brain",
"title": "Hidden Brain",
"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/hiddenbrain.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/series/423302056/hidden-brain",
"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
"subscribe": {
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"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/Science-Podcasts/Hidden-Brain-p787503/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510308/podcast.xml"
}
},
"how-i-built-this": {
"id": "how-i-built-this",
"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/howIBuiltThis.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this",
"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/3zxy",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510313/podcast.xml"
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},
"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
"imageAlt": "KQED Hyphenación",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
"meta": {
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"order": 15
},
"link": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/2p3Fifq96nw9BPcmFdIq0o?si=39209f7b25774f38",
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"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/6c3dd23c-93fb-4aab-97ba-1725fa6315f1/hyphenaci%C3%B3n",
"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC2275451163"
}
},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
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"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/id1492194549",
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}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/xtTd",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
}
},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Masters-of-Scale-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "http://mastersofscale.app.link/",
"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mindshift-podcast/id1078765985",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/464615685/mind-shift-podcast",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/stories-teachers-share",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "On Our Watch from NPR and KQED",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1567098962",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/show/on-our-watch",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510360/podcast.xml"
}
},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/otm",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
"title": "PBS NewsHour",
"info": "Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "pbs"
},
"link": "/radio/program/pbs-newshour",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/",
"rss": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/feeds/rss/podcasts/show"
}
},
"perspectives": {
"id": "perspectives",
"title": "Perspectives",
"tagline": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991",
"info": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Perspectives_Tile_Final.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Perspectives",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/perspectives/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 14
},
"link": "/perspectives",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id73801135",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/432309616/perspectives",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/perspectives/category/perspectives/feed/",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93dzIua3FlZC5vcmcvcGVyc3BlY3RpdmVzL2NhdGVnb3J5L3BlcnNwZWN0aXZlcy9mZWVkLw"
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},
"planet-money": {
"id": "planet-money",
"title": "Planet Money",
"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
"airtime": "SUN 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/planetmoney.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/sections/money/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/planet-money",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/M4f5",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/planet-money/id290783428?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/Business--Economics-Podcasts/Planet-Money-p164680/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510289/podcast.xml"
}
},
"politicalbreakdown": {
"id": "politicalbreakdown",
"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Political-Breakdown-2024-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Political Breakdown",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/politicalbreakdown",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 5
},
"link": "/podcasts/politicalbreakdown",
"subscribe": {
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"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/e0c2d153-ad36-4c8d-901d-f1da6a724824/political-breakdown",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/572155894/political-breakdown",
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