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"title": "What Is a Mission-Style Burrito? Maybe … a Myth",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If there is any meal that is universally loved, burritos would surely be a top contender. A combination of beans, rice and marinated, slowly cooked meat provide a hearty foundation. Add some toppings that run the gamut — from pico de gallo to salsa, from cheese to sour cream, and, of course, veggies — and a warm flour tortilla for a perfectly wrapped meal. [baycuriousbug]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because of the simple formula, burritos are ever-evolving and are perfectly positioned for a number of fusion innovations like the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/bayareabites/106808/sorry-sushi-burrito-japanese-program-certifies-authentic-cuisine\">Sushirrito\u003c/a> or the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13929778/afghan-burrito-berkeley-golden-sauce\">Afghan burrito\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the years, a slew of Bay Curious listeners have asked about burritos, usually some form of these two questions: “Were burritos invented in San Francisco?” and “What exactly is a ‘Mission-style’ burrito?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Origins of a legend\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Many Americans have been told that the burrito was created here in the United States, but others say that burritos are a Mexican creation through and through.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of people are claiming that it’s American and a lot of people do not know that Sonora [does] not have corn tortillas,” said Francisco Hernandez, founder of \u003ca href=\"https://www.elmetate.com/\">El Metate\u003c/a>, a Mission District taqueria on Bryant and 22nd Street. “They only have flour tortillas, so the burrito originally was created in Sonora.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: left\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.azcentral.com/story/entertainment/dining/2021/11/19/how-make-classic-sonoran-burros-de-machaca/8576497002/\">One theory for how burritos came about\u003c/a> is that the people of Sonora, a northern Mexican state that borders Arizona and New Mexico, used flour tortillas, because they traveled better on donkeys, called “burros” in Spanish. This might also be how the burrito, which literally translates to “little donkey,” got its name.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some claim that the \u003ca href=\"https://naatikmexico.org/blog/beyond-the-burrito-food-in-the-yucatn-peninsula\">burrito dates back even further\u003c/a> to the Mayan empire when people stuffed veggies, and sometimes meat, into corn tortillas. Though some Mayan cuisine has surely influenced burritos, like \u003ca href=\"https://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/1018283-cochinita-pibil?smid=url-share\">cochinita pibil\u003c/a>, modern burritos are famously made with flour tortillas. Another popular theory is that the modern-day burrito got its start \u003ca href=\"https://www.elfinanciero.com.mx/food-and-drink/2022/02/11/el-origen-de-los-burritos-sabor-norteno-que-traspaso-fronteras-hasta-el-super-bowl/\">after Spanish colonization\u003c/a> in Ciudad Juárez, Chihuahua, another northern Mexican state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Any origin story when it comes to Mexican food, very few of them are indisputable,” said Gustavo Arellano, a \u003cem>Los Angeles Times\u003c/em> columnist and author of \u003cem>Taco USA: How Mexican Food Conquered America\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Born in San Francisco, eaten everywhere\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Some time after the burrito came to San Francisco, it grew in size and, subsequently, in popularity. These large, foil-wrapped burritos came to be marketed as “Mission-style” burritos at some restaurants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for who first created a “Mission-style” burrito, the origin is, unsurprisingly, disputed. \u003ca href=\"https://www.tlctaco.com/\">La Cumbre\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.elfarosoma.com\">El Faro\u003c/a>, two long-standing taquerias in San Francisco’s Mission District, are often brought up as the creators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When you think of a burrito, you think humongous, humongous [wrapped] in foil,” Arellano exclaimed. “And you get to customize it to your own taste, and you say, ‘Oh, I can’t eat it. It’s too much.’ And then you eat it. You’re like, ‘Oh, my God, I’m so full,’ but you kind of don’t regret it. And then you do it again. What Americans now consider to be a burrito is the ‘Mission-style’ burrito.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Arellano says the fast-casual food chain Chipotle spread this style of burrito around the U.S. in the mid-1990s. Chipotle’s founder modeled his business after the taquerias he used to frequent when he lived in San Francisco, bringing so-called “Mission-style” to the rest of the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11961196\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/Burrito.jpg\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11961196\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/Burrito-800x795.jpg\" alt=\"Hand holding a large burrito stuffed with filling and wrapped in foil, cut in half.\" width=\"800\" height=\"795\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/Burrito-800x795.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/Burrito-160x159.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/Burrito.jpg 810w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A carne asada burrito from La Taqueria in San Francisco’s Mission District. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of La Taqueria/Instagram)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Miguel Jara, founder of \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/lataqueriasf/?hl=en\">La Taqueria\u003c/a> which \u003ca href=\"https://sfist.com/2023/08/04/la-taqueria-arguably-the-creator-of-the-mission-burrito-celebrates-50-years-in-business/\">celebrated 50 years\u003c/a> in the Mission this year, remembers getting burritos in the 1960s from a woman named Micaela Duran, who founded La Cumbre alongside her husband, Raul Duran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Before me, there was a taco place out here, it’s called La Cumbre, and [it] had a meat market,” Jara said. “Miki was a real wonderful woman. She always called me ‘mijo’ (my son) and stuff like that when I saw her.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jara said Duran is credited with combining two flour tortillas to create an extra large burrito for hungry firemen who would come into the restaurant, and Hernandez, El Metate’s founder, echoed the same story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Whether that’s true or not, I have no idea,” Jara said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The sturdy Mission burrito falls apart\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>But whether or not the Mission-style burrito truly started in San Francisco might be a moot point because the very people Bay Curious spoke to about its origin story find its existence a little dubious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[What] do you mean [by] a Mission-style burrito?” Hernandez heartily chuckled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still laughing, Hernandez explained that even though many customers and media outlets regard El Metate’s burritos as “Mission-style,” he’s against the moniker because he simply makes burritos in the way that he traditionally would in Guanajuato, Mexico.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The same is true for Jara, and even though La Taqueria’s burritos lack rice, the restaurant is still regarded as one of the pioneers for the Mission burrito.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even so, Jara said, “I don’t know what’s a Mission-style burrito.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These two taqueria titans don’t stand alone in this sentiment. Cecilia Peña-Govea, more commonly known as the artist \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/ladona415/\">La Doña\u003c/a>, moonlights as the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/column/article/sf-burrito-review-gordo-taqueria-16978433.php\">chief burrito reviewer for SF Gate\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Does the Mission-style burrito exist? I mean, maybe,” she said. “As somebody who grew up enduring a lot of the violences of displacement and gentrification, I see the way in which cultural assets are packaged and commoditized.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Peña-Govea remarks that “Mission-style” seems to be more of a term for outsiders, rather than for the people who make or grew up eating the food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think you just gotta keep an eye on who is marketing something as authentic or inauthentic,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The problem definitely isn’t the food, but the term. If “Mission style” was a tortilla itself, it might deteriorate, collapse under the sauciness of an idea that in one instance is too simple and too amorphous to contain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whatever the case, burritos — and maybe especially those that are falling apart — taste good, they can make you feel good, and like Arellano said, you’re always going to keep going back for more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey everyone. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is the Bay Curious podcast where we answer listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. I want to start off this week’s episode with an ice breaker.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[music] \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you could eat only one food for the rest of your life, what would it be? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, I’m just going to say the first thought. Best thought. And that would be nachos. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It would be really, really good bread and butter. That’s like, there’s no better food than that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eric: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would love to eat potstickers for the rest of my life because you get the carbs which is on the outside, and then you get your veggies and meat or whatever you want in the filling so you can be creative. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Fried chicken. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And why? Fried chicken. What is it about it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, I [beep] love fried chicken. [laugh] So good!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nik:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Pasta because I’m Italian and it’s in my blood. My blood is marinara and mozzarella. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is probably one of the hardest questions I’ve ever been asked in my life. [laughs then pauses] I’m going to go with burritos. I’ve never found myself, like, opposed to eating a burrito. Or if anybody asked me to go out and get any of them. So yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You’re never like, not in the mood for a burrito, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Those are the voices of some of my colleagues at KQED. As for me, it’s a burrito. Obviously! I’m actually sort of shocked more people didn’t give that answer. Burritos have that perfect combination of carbs, protein and veggies, all wrapped up in a portable package… oohh yeah! Delicious.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now I know a lot of YOU love burritos too because over the years you’ve sent in a lot of questions about them. Most often, questions asking about the history of the burrito. Like: Was the burrito invented in San Francisco? And what exactly is a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mission-style \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">burrito?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To start in on some answers, we went to an expert…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gustavo Arellano: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Gustavo Arellano. I’m a columnist for the \u003cem>Los Angeles Times\u003c/em> and also author of the book, \u003cem>Taco U.S.A. How Mexican Food Conquered America\u003c/em>.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Arellano is also a burrito historian, a job that I really wish I had known was an option when I was choosing a career…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gustavo Arellano: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Any origin story when it comes to Mexican food, very few of them [laugh] are indisputable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s tough to nail down exactly where burritos truly come from. … but what we do know is that the most popular style of burrito in America has roots that run through San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gustavo Arellano: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When you think of a burrito, you think humongous, humongous in a foil. And you get to customize it to your own tastes and you say, “Oh I can’t eat it. It’s too much.” And then you eat it. “You’re like, Oh, my God, I’m so full,” but you kind of don’t regret it. And then you do it again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, what took over what Americans now consider to be a burrito is the “Mission-style” burrito. And that’s all because of Chipotle spreading around in the mid-1990s. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll be honest, it feels like blasphemy to even utter the name “Chipotle” in a Bay Curious episode about burritos, but it’s true — the chain played a part in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">popularizing\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the style of burritos that have taken over the U.S.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The founder of Chipotle used to live in San Francisco and when he decided to open a burrito chain in Colorado, he modeled his business off the taquerias he knew and loved here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gustavo Arellano: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So he got that exact same, what I call the stations of the burrito, the different stations really to customize your burrito. He replicated that, spread it around the country because, a big Mission-style burrito — it’s perfect college late night food. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But — here’s a hot take — what if we told you that the Mission-style burrito, America’s most popular burrito, doesn’t really exist?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francisco Hernandez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you mean about “Mission style?” [laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Today on the show, we’re visiting some of the most legendary taquerias in San Francisco to learn about the history of burritos in this town from the people who have dedicated their lives to making them. We’ll get to it right after this…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[BREAK] \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED podcasts engagement producer César Saldaña went to explore the neighborhood where the legend of this popular food is centered… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mission-style burritos are kind of this amorphous thing that no one really knows how to describe except to say that they’re big and wrapped in foil. And of course, you can find them in San Francisco’s Mission District. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I start out at one of the oldest taqueria’s in the Mission, aptly named La Taqueria, which just celebrated its 50th anniversary this year. It’s also one of the most well known taqueria’s in the neighborhood and has even won a James Beard award. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[AMBI: Sounds of the busy restaurant outside] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The façade of the building is modeled to look kind of like an old Mission: white stucco with two large archways and brickwork instead of sidewalk. When I visited around lunchtime on a recent Friday, the restaurant was packed and the line of people waiting to order extended down the block. La Taqueria is still owned and run by its original founder, 82-year-old Miguel Jara. When I got there, he was taking orders and handing roses to his customers, so I asked him what that was about. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miguel Jara:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many years ago. This girl brought me a dozen of flowers. And I can’t take them home because my wife is going to get pissed off. Right? So I started giving them to people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Miguel has a big smile and a bigger personality, and when he’s in the restaurant he spends a lot of time interacting with his customers. He’s originally from Tijuana, the Mexican city that borders San Diego, and he has a unique charm that … if you’re familiar with Tijuana … you know can only come from there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miguel Jara: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>Y en Tijuana, tienen unos tacos bien ricos. En todos lados! Cualquier comida que comes en Tijuana está sabrosa.\u003c/em> So you understand all that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Miguel says that the tacos in Tijuana are delicious, and the city he grew up in shaped how he thinks about food, and how he cooks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you can taste it in La Taqueria’s menu.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s not just the food that he’s put his heart into. Miguel has decided and shaped the feel of the entire restaurant.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are lots of personal touches. The bottles of green salsa that sit on every table in the restaurant are his mother’s recipe which hasn’t changed since La Taqueria opened. But over 50 years, some things have changed, including the prices…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How much was a burrito back then when you first opened? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miguel Jara:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> $0.90. The taco was $0.60. Quesadillas $0.25, sodas were $0.25. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alright so inflation, [both laugh] after 50 years!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But that’s not all, he says that the \u003c/span>menu\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> has adapted, depending on what his customers have asked for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miguel Jara: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then somebody comes over and says, “What’s that?” Oh, that’s a quesadilla. He says, “Can you put meat on it?” Well I don’t see why not. And then somebody else comes over and says, “Hey, could you make that a little crispy?” Well, let’s try it! So they made their little menu, you know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The food is obviously good. But don’t just take my word for it. A couple of his customers who happened to be grabbing lunch came up to us to say goodbye to Miguel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A mother and daughter duo, they excitedly told me that they’d been eating at La Taqueria for 47 years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[background conversation in Spanish]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maria Delia Melgar is 96. I asked her if she remembers when she first started coming to La Taqueria\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Delia Melgar: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>Oooh desde que nació\u003c/em>.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She says she’s been coming since the place first opened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> ¿Que comida le gusta aquí en el restaurante? \u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Delia Melgar:\u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Toda la comida. Carne asada. \u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daughter: \u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ella predicaba y se traía a toda la gente aquí a comer. \u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Maria Delia’s daughter says her mom loves dining with friends and family at La Taqueria. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And she says that she used to go to a place like this in El Salvador, where she grew up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Delia: \u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yo tuve uno alla en El Salvador, este mismo negocio aprendía ser yo a tanta clientes. \u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And even though she may be Salvadoran, she says she loves Mexican food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Delia: \u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Después de la salvadoreña, la mexicana. Si.\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Its loyal customer base is one of the main reasons La Taqueria has been able to stay open for half a century. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It might also help that in article after article, it’s named as one of the best places to get a quote-unquote “Mission-style” burrito. Although notably, unlike most other Mission taquerias, their burritos don’t include rice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what does Miguel himself think about Mission-style burritos?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miguel Jara: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know what’s a Mission-style burrito. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Miguel thinks a burrito is just a burrito, whatever you put in it. But there is a sort of legend about the origins of the Mission-style burrito…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miguel Jara\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Before me there was a taco place out here, it’s called La Cumbre. Raul was the owner. And he had a meat market. Miki was a real wonderful woman. She always called me “mijo” and stuff like that when I saw her. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Miguel says Miki cooked great food, and the story goes that the firefighters from the nearby station would come in extra hungry. So she put two flour tortillas together, filled them with rice, beans, and meat, and that’s where the Mission burrito started.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miguel Jara: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whether that’s true or not. I have no idea. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As for the often repeated story that burritos were originally invented in the States, and not Mexico… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miguel Jara: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">in Mexico, they did burritos a long time ago. I can tell you it was 1957, ’58 — Boliches Corona. It was on the main street and they used to have burritos there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I heard a similar thing from another Mission District restaurateur. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francisco Hernandez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A lot of people are claiming that it’s American and it’s not. Because a lot of people do not know that Sonora do not have corn tortillas. They only have flour tortillas. So the burrito originally was created and done in Sonora.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Francisco Hernandez owns El Metate, another longtime Mission taqueria on Bryant and 22nd Street. He also mentioned La Cumbre and the meat market and that same woman, Miki, who originally joined two flour tortillas together to make huge burritos … before La Taqueria and El Metate even opened. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, if the Mission-style burrito exists, we’ve got two taqueria founders claiming the same story. And it definitely wasn’t Chipotle that created them. But when I asked about Mission-style burritos Francisco just sort of chuckled. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francisco Hernandez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. What you mean Mission-style? [laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b> \u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, if El Metate doesn’t make “Mission-style burritos,” what do they make?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francisco Hernandez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m very picky because I know what I want and I know what I want to present to my people. My customers. My only goal is fresh Mexican cuisine, fresh rice, fresh beans, fresh meat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Francisco credits his success to the quality of his food, not any sort of moniker.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the end of the day, burritos are an ever-evolving cuisine, especially here in the Bay. and at El Metate, one of their most popular burritos is even made with mole… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A traditional Mexican sauce that’s a meal on its own, made with a laundry list of ingredients including chilis, nuts, chocolate, veggies, and spices. It’s a labor of love that everyone does a bit differently … and it’s one of my favorite comfort foods.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Although I’ve never seen it incorporated into a burrito before!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The day that I visited the restaurant, I had lunch with Cecilia Peña-Govea, aka the singer La Doña, aka chief burrito reviewer for SF Gate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cecilia Peña-Govea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I grew up coming here. I came here when it first opened because our friend Duffy, who lives right here, she started coming here as soon as the place opened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We decided to try the popular mole burrito and we even went back into the kitchen to learn how to make it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sounds of a Kitchen/cooking Ambi]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So we meet Rosendo, who’s been cooking for El Metate for 20 years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rosendo:\u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Este es el pollo asado.\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cecilia Peña-Govea: \u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Y el mole —\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">¿Que tiene el mole? \u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rosendo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem> El Mole tiene el tres chiles: el chile de california, tiene chile negro, tiene chile ancho.\u003c/em> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Rosendo adds chicken, beans, and rice into the burrito and adds some toppings before drenching the whole thing in mole and wrapping it up in foil. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sounds of scooping then wrapping in foil]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And when Cecilia asks if this burrito is made in a Mission-style way…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cecilia Peña-Govea: \u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Y este es de estilo San Francisiense o…?\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rosendo:\u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm … nosotros somos del estado Guanajuato. \u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cecilia Peña-Govea: \u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Asi lo hacen alli? \u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rosendo:\u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Si, tradicionalmente allá. \u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s making it the same way Francisco would back in the Mexican state of Guanajuato.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And finally, Rosendo gave us the burrito, and Cecilia and I sat down in El Metate’s brightly colored dining room and dug in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[foil noises, eating]\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok it’s good. It’s really really good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cecilia Peña-Gova: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm hmm, ok. This is a nice round and salty mole. In this case, they have you can tell that they obviously have gotten a good fry on the spices before they integrate all the ingredients. But yeah, it’s bomb. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it should come as no surprise that it’s so good …because Francisco’s mother is behind the recipe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francisco Hernandez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, my mom’s Mole was never sweet. She said that the pepper had to be flavorful, but not sweet. My version of the mole It has a little bit of chocolate. It has the spices that she would use. It has garlic and onions. It’s something that is so popular that if we don’t have it, People ask for it. And it’s not on the menu. It’s a special.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You heard it here first. The mole burrito is a secret menu item for those in the know … and now, you’re in the know. Francisco’s chicken mole burrito was definitely a first for me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These sorts of innovations attract new customers and keep people coming back. And like Miguel mentioned, his customers have even come up with some new inventions for La Taqueria. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, at this point in the story, we’ve got two titans of burritos in the Mission who don’t know what a “Mission-style burrito” is … the idea of its existence breaks down even further when we consider culture. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, after finishing our mole burritos, Cecilia and I headed over to KQED studios to dive even deeper. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cecilia Peña-Govea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Does the Mission-style burrito exist? Mm. I mean, maybe. But I think it looks different for everybody. You know? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you mean by that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cecilia Peña-Govea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s not like my brain is confused and I’m like, “What is it?” It’s more of that, like, as somebody who grew up enduring a lot of the violences of displacement and gentrification, I see the way in which cultural assets are packaged and commoditized. I don’t know, I don’t like it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Does it make you feel like Mission-style burritos are a creation that maybe comes from\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the neighborhood and culture but isn’t for the neighborhood and culture?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cecilia Peña-Govea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that anything that’s going to be like, this is the Mission style, blah, blah, blah, I automatically roll my eyes. I think that like a lot of us just become very kind of sketched out when there is kind of that vibe of like asking us to kind of identify and package any cultural asset or facet of cultural production. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like you’re being observed? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cecilia Peña-Govea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. It’s just so like, I don’t know, like, I don’t know, what am I going to tell you?\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it kind of sounds like you’re picking up on the authenticity — and I know that’s a loaded word — but, like, the authenticity of the term itself and not the food. Like, maybe it doesn’t fit because it’s made to market something that has sort of always existed and always been here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cecilia Peña-Govea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think authenticity is kind of like a marketing tool. So I think you just gotta keep an eye on who is marketing something as authentic or inauthentic. So like, why are we calling it authentic and what does this serve? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[music]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I realize that no one really has a problem with Mission-style burritos. It’s the term itself that people take issue with because it feels like branding for something that has always existed and is constantly evolving. It seems like the term is trying to be bigger than the type of burrito it’s used to identify, something too broad with its defining feature being its size. And if you’re from the Mission, or from the Bay in general, you may have never even used the term “Mission-style burrito” because … it’s just a burrito.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And whether or not they originated with taquerias in the city, what we know for sure is that the burritos that people associate with the Mission are big, tightly wrapped in foil, and arguably one of the best comfort foods you can get. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As Gustavo Arellano said earlier, they taste good, they can make you feel good, and you’re always going to keep going back for more.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today’s episode was reported by César Saldana and produced by Amanda Font. Kelly O’Mara provided the interview tape with Gustavo Arellano. The voices of my KQED colleagues you heard at the top of the episode belong to…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sarah Augusta\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Josh Cassidy\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eric:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Eric Dahn\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oscar Palma\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nik:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Nik Altenburg\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Alex Tran\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Kelly O’Mara first got the ball rolling on this story in our monthly Bay Curious newsletter a few months back. That’s a place where we answer even more listener questions, share our monthly voting round, keep you posted about upcoming events and more. Head to BayCurious.org/newsletter to subscribe! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. The team behind it includes Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks so much for listening! I’ll see you next week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "Read a transcript of this episode If there is any meal that is universally loved, burritos would surely be a top contender. A combination of beans, rice and marinated, slowly cooked meat provide a hearty foundation. Add some toppings that run the gamut — from pico de gallo to salsa, from cheese to sour cream,",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If there is any meal that is universally loved, burritos would surely be a top contender. A combination of beans, rice and marinated, slowly cooked meat provide a hearty foundation. Add some toppings that run the gamut — from pico de gallo to salsa, from cheese to sour cream, and, of course, veggies — and a warm flour tortilla for a perfectly wrapped meal. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because of the simple formula, burritos are ever-evolving and are perfectly positioned for a number of fusion innovations like the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/bayareabites/106808/sorry-sushi-burrito-japanese-program-certifies-authentic-cuisine\">Sushirrito\u003c/a> or the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13929778/afghan-burrito-berkeley-golden-sauce\">Afghan burrito\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the years, a slew of Bay Curious listeners have asked about burritos, usually some form of these two questions: “Were burritos invented in San Francisco?” and “What exactly is a ‘Mission-style’ burrito?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Origins of a legend\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Many Americans have been told that the burrito was created here in the United States, but others say that burritos are a Mexican creation through and through.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of people are claiming that it’s American and a lot of people do not know that Sonora [does] not have corn tortillas,” said Francisco Hernandez, founder of \u003ca href=\"https://www.elmetate.com/\">El Metate\u003c/a>, a Mission District taqueria on Bryant and 22nd Street. “They only have flour tortillas, so the burrito originally was created in Sonora.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: left\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.azcentral.com/story/entertainment/dining/2021/11/19/how-make-classic-sonoran-burros-de-machaca/8576497002/\">One theory for how burritos came about\u003c/a> is that the people of Sonora, a northern Mexican state that borders Arizona and New Mexico, used flour tortillas, because they traveled better on donkeys, called “burros” in Spanish. This might also be how the burrito, which literally translates to “little donkey,” got its name.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some claim that the \u003ca href=\"https://naatikmexico.org/blog/beyond-the-burrito-food-in-the-yucatn-peninsula\">burrito dates back even further\u003c/a> to the Mayan empire when people stuffed veggies, and sometimes meat, into corn tortillas. Though some Mayan cuisine has surely influenced burritos, like \u003ca href=\"https://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/1018283-cochinita-pibil?smid=url-share\">cochinita pibil\u003c/a>, modern burritos are famously made with flour tortillas. Another popular theory is that the modern-day burrito got its start \u003ca href=\"https://www.elfinanciero.com.mx/food-and-drink/2022/02/11/el-origen-de-los-burritos-sabor-norteno-que-traspaso-fronteras-hasta-el-super-bowl/\">after Spanish colonization\u003c/a> in Ciudad Juárez, Chihuahua, another northern Mexican state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Any origin story when it comes to Mexican food, very few of them are indisputable,” said Gustavo Arellano, a \u003cem>Los Angeles Times\u003c/em> columnist and author of \u003cem>Taco USA: How Mexican Food Conquered America\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Born in San Francisco, eaten everywhere\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Some time after the burrito came to San Francisco, it grew in size and, subsequently, in popularity. These large, foil-wrapped burritos came to be marketed as “Mission-style” burritos at some restaurants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for who first created a “Mission-style” burrito, the origin is, unsurprisingly, disputed. \u003ca href=\"https://www.tlctaco.com/\">La Cumbre\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.elfarosoma.com\">El Faro\u003c/a>, two long-standing taquerias in San Francisco’s Mission District, are often brought up as the creators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When you think of a burrito, you think humongous, humongous [wrapped] in foil,” Arellano exclaimed. “And you get to customize it to your own taste, and you say, ‘Oh, I can’t eat it. It’s too much.’ And then you eat it. You’re like, ‘Oh, my God, I’m so full,’ but you kind of don’t regret it. And then you do it again. What Americans now consider to be a burrito is the ‘Mission-style’ burrito.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Arellano says the fast-casual food chain Chipotle spread this style of burrito around the U.S. in the mid-1990s. Chipotle’s founder modeled his business after the taquerias he used to frequent when he lived in San Francisco, bringing so-called “Mission-style” to the rest of the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11961196\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/Burrito.jpg\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11961196\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/Burrito-800x795.jpg\" alt=\"Hand holding a large burrito stuffed with filling and wrapped in foil, cut in half.\" width=\"800\" height=\"795\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/Burrito-800x795.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/Burrito-160x159.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/Burrito.jpg 810w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A carne asada burrito from La Taqueria in San Francisco’s Mission District. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of La Taqueria/Instagram)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Miguel Jara, founder of \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/lataqueriasf/?hl=en\">La Taqueria\u003c/a> which \u003ca href=\"https://sfist.com/2023/08/04/la-taqueria-arguably-the-creator-of-the-mission-burrito-celebrates-50-years-in-business/\">celebrated 50 years\u003c/a> in the Mission this year, remembers getting burritos in the 1960s from a woman named Micaela Duran, who founded La Cumbre alongside her husband, Raul Duran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Before me, there was a taco place out here, it’s called La Cumbre, and [it] had a meat market,” Jara said. “Miki was a real wonderful woman. She always called me ‘mijo’ (my son) and stuff like that when I saw her.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jara said Duran is credited with combining two flour tortillas to create an extra large burrito for hungry firemen who would come into the restaurant, and Hernandez, El Metate’s founder, echoed the same story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Whether that’s true or not, I have no idea,” Jara said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The sturdy Mission burrito falls apart\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>But whether or not the Mission-style burrito truly started in San Francisco might be a moot point because the very people Bay Curious spoke to about its origin story find its existence a little dubious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[What] do you mean [by] a Mission-style burrito?” Hernandez heartily chuckled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still laughing, Hernandez explained that even though many customers and media outlets regard El Metate’s burritos as “Mission-style,” he’s against the moniker because he simply makes burritos in the way that he traditionally would in Guanajuato, Mexico.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The same is true for Jara, and even though La Taqueria’s burritos lack rice, the restaurant is still regarded as one of the pioneers for the Mission burrito.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even so, Jara said, “I don’t know what’s a Mission-style burrito.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These two taqueria titans don’t stand alone in this sentiment. Cecilia Peña-Govea, more commonly known as the artist \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/ladona415/\">La Doña\u003c/a>, moonlights as the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/column/article/sf-burrito-review-gordo-taqueria-16978433.php\">chief burrito reviewer for SF Gate\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Does the Mission-style burrito exist? I mean, maybe,” she said. “As somebody who grew up enduring a lot of the violences of displacement and gentrification, I see the way in which cultural assets are packaged and commoditized.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Peña-Govea remarks that “Mission-style” seems to be more of a term for outsiders, rather than for the people who make or grew up eating the food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think you just gotta keep an eye on who is marketing something as authentic or inauthentic,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The problem definitely isn’t the food, but the term. If “Mission style” was a tortilla itself, it might deteriorate, collapse under the sauciness of an idea that in one instance is too simple and too amorphous to contain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whatever the case, burritos — and maybe especially those that are falling apart — taste good, they can make you feel good, and like Arellano said, you’re always going to keep going back for more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey everyone. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is the Bay Curious podcast where we answer listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. I want to start off this week’s episode with an ice breaker.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[music] \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you could eat only one food for the rest of your life, what would it be? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, I’m just going to say the first thought. Best thought. And that would be nachos. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It would be really, really good bread and butter. That’s like, there’s no better food than that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eric: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would love to eat potstickers for the rest of my life because you get the carbs which is on the outside, and then you get your veggies and meat or whatever you want in the filling so you can be creative. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Fried chicken. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And why? Fried chicken. What is it about it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, I [beep] love fried chicken. [laugh] So good!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nik:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Pasta because I’m Italian and it’s in my blood. My blood is marinara and mozzarella. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is probably one of the hardest questions I’ve ever been asked in my life. [laughs then pauses] I’m going to go with burritos. I’ve never found myself, like, opposed to eating a burrito. Or if anybody asked me to go out and get any of them. So yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You’re never like, not in the mood for a burrito, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Those are the voices of some of my colleagues at KQED. As for me, it’s a burrito. Obviously! I’m actually sort of shocked more people didn’t give that answer. Burritos have that perfect combination of carbs, protein and veggies, all wrapped up in a portable package… oohh yeah! Delicious.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now I know a lot of YOU love burritos too because over the years you’ve sent in a lot of questions about them. Most often, questions asking about the history of the burrito. Like: Was the burrito invented in San Francisco? And what exactly is a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mission-style \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">burrito?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To start in on some answers, we went to an expert…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gustavo Arellano: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Gustavo Arellano. I’m a columnist for the \u003cem>Los Angeles Times\u003c/em> and also author of the book, \u003cem>Taco U.S.A. How Mexican Food Conquered America\u003c/em>.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Arellano is also a burrito historian, a job that I really wish I had known was an option when I was choosing a career…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gustavo Arellano: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Any origin story when it comes to Mexican food, very few of them [laugh] are indisputable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s tough to nail down exactly where burritos truly come from. … but what we do know is that the most popular style of burrito in America has roots that run through San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gustavo Arellano: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When you think of a burrito, you think humongous, humongous in a foil. And you get to customize it to your own tastes and you say, “Oh I can’t eat it. It’s too much.” And then you eat it. “You’re like, Oh, my God, I’m so full,” but you kind of don’t regret it. And then you do it again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, what took over what Americans now consider to be a burrito is the “Mission-style” burrito. And that’s all because of Chipotle spreading around in the mid-1990s. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll be honest, it feels like blasphemy to even utter the name “Chipotle” in a Bay Curious episode about burritos, but it’s true — the chain played a part in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">popularizing\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the style of burritos that have taken over the U.S.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The founder of Chipotle used to live in San Francisco and when he decided to open a burrito chain in Colorado, he modeled his business off the taquerias he knew and loved here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gustavo Arellano: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So he got that exact same, what I call the stations of the burrito, the different stations really to customize your burrito. He replicated that, spread it around the country because, a big Mission-style burrito — it’s perfect college late night food. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But — here’s a hot take — what if we told you that the Mission-style burrito, America’s most popular burrito, doesn’t really exist?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francisco Hernandez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you mean about “Mission style?” [laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Today on the show, we’re visiting some of the most legendary taquerias in San Francisco to learn about the history of burritos in this town from the people who have dedicated their lives to making them. We’ll get to it right after this…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[BREAK] \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED podcasts engagement producer César Saldaña went to explore the neighborhood where the legend of this popular food is centered… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mission-style burritos are kind of this amorphous thing that no one really knows how to describe except to say that they’re big and wrapped in foil. And of course, you can find them in San Francisco’s Mission District. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I start out at one of the oldest taqueria’s in the Mission, aptly named La Taqueria, which just celebrated its 50th anniversary this year. It’s also one of the most well known taqueria’s in the neighborhood and has even won a James Beard award. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[AMBI: Sounds of the busy restaurant outside] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The façade of the building is modeled to look kind of like an old Mission: white stucco with two large archways and brickwork instead of sidewalk. When I visited around lunchtime on a recent Friday, the restaurant was packed and the line of people waiting to order extended down the block. La Taqueria is still owned and run by its original founder, 82-year-old Miguel Jara. When I got there, he was taking orders and handing roses to his customers, so I asked him what that was about. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miguel Jara:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many years ago. This girl brought me a dozen of flowers. And I can’t take them home because my wife is going to get pissed off. Right? So I started giving them to people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Miguel has a big smile and a bigger personality, and when he’s in the restaurant he spends a lot of time interacting with his customers. He’s originally from Tijuana, the Mexican city that borders San Diego, and he has a unique charm that … if you’re familiar with Tijuana … you know can only come from there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miguel Jara: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>Y en Tijuana, tienen unos tacos bien ricos. En todos lados! Cualquier comida que comes en Tijuana está sabrosa.\u003c/em> So you understand all that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Miguel says that the tacos in Tijuana are delicious, and the city he grew up in shaped how he thinks about food, and how he cooks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you can taste it in La Taqueria’s menu.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s not just the food that he’s put his heart into. Miguel has decided and shaped the feel of the entire restaurant.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are lots of personal touches. The bottles of green salsa that sit on every table in the restaurant are his mother’s recipe which hasn’t changed since La Taqueria opened. But over 50 years, some things have changed, including the prices…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How much was a burrito back then when you first opened? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miguel Jara:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> $0.90. The taco was $0.60. Quesadillas $0.25, sodas were $0.25. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alright so inflation, [both laugh] after 50 years!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But that’s not all, he says that the \u003c/span>menu\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> has adapted, depending on what his customers have asked for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miguel Jara: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then somebody comes over and says, “What’s that?” Oh, that’s a quesadilla. He says, “Can you put meat on it?” Well I don’t see why not. And then somebody else comes over and says, “Hey, could you make that a little crispy?” Well, let’s try it! So they made their little menu, you know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The food is obviously good. But don’t just take my word for it. A couple of his customers who happened to be grabbing lunch came up to us to say goodbye to Miguel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A mother and daughter duo, they excitedly told me that they’d been eating at La Taqueria for 47 years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[background conversation in Spanish]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maria Delia Melgar is 96. I asked her if she remembers when she first started coming to La Taqueria\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Delia Melgar: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>Oooh desde que nació\u003c/em>.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She says she’s been coming since the place first opened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> ¿Que comida le gusta aquí en el restaurante? \u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Delia Melgar:\u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Toda la comida. Carne asada. \u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daughter: \u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ella predicaba y se traía a toda la gente aquí a comer. \u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Maria Delia’s daughter says her mom loves dining with friends and family at La Taqueria. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And she says that she used to go to a place like this in El Salvador, where she grew up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Delia: \u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yo tuve uno alla en El Salvador, este mismo negocio aprendía ser yo a tanta clientes. \u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And even though she may be Salvadoran, she says she loves Mexican food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Delia: \u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Después de la salvadoreña, la mexicana. Si.\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Its loyal customer base is one of the main reasons La Taqueria has been able to stay open for half a century. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It might also help that in article after article, it’s named as one of the best places to get a quote-unquote “Mission-style” burrito. Although notably, unlike most other Mission taquerias, their burritos don’t include rice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what does Miguel himself think about Mission-style burritos?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miguel Jara: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know what’s a Mission-style burrito. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Miguel thinks a burrito is just a burrito, whatever you put in it. But there is a sort of legend about the origins of the Mission-style burrito…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miguel Jara\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Before me there was a taco place out here, it’s called La Cumbre. Raul was the owner. And he had a meat market. Miki was a real wonderful woman. She always called me “mijo” and stuff like that when I saw her. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Miguel says Miki cooked great food, and the story goes that the firefighters from the nearby station would come in extra hungry. So she put two flour tortillas together, filled them with rice, beans, and meat, and that’s where the Mission burrito started.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miguel Jara: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whether that’s true or not. I have no idea. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As for the often repeated story that burritos were originally invented in the States, and not Mexico… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miguel Jara: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">in Mexico, they did burritos a long time ago. I can tell you it was 1957, ’58 — Boliches Corona. It was on the main street and they used to have burritos there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I heard a similar thing from another Mission District restaurateur. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francisco Hernandez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A lot of people are claiming that it’s American and it’s not. Because a lot of people do not know that Sonora do not have corn tortillas. They only have flour tortillas. So the burrito originally was created and done in Sonora.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Francisco Hernandez owns El Metate, another longtime Mission taqueria on Bryant and 22nd Street. He also mentioned La Cumbre and the meat market and that same woman, Miki, who originally joined two flour tortillas together to make huge burritos … before La Taqueria and El Metate even opened. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, if the Mission-style burrito exists, we’ve got two taqueria founders claiming the same story. And it definitely wasn’t Chipotle that created them. But when I asked about Mission-style burritos Francisco just sort of chuckled. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francisco Hernandez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. What you mean Mission-style? [laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b> \u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, if El Metate doesn’t make “Mission-style burritos,” what do they make?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francisco Hernandez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m very picky because I know what I want and I know what I want to present to my people. My customers. My only goal is fresh Mexican cuisine, fresh rice, fresh beans, fresh meat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Francisco credits his success to the quality of his food, not any sort of moniker.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the end of the day, burritos are an ever-evolving cuisine, especially here in the Bay. and at El Metate, one of their most popular burritos is even made with mole… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A traditional Mexican sauce that’s a meal on its own, made with a laundry list of ingredients including chilis, nuts, chocolate, veggies, and spices. It’s a labor of love that everyone does a bit differently … and it’s one of my favorite comfort foods.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Although I’ve never seen it incorporated into a burrito before!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The day that I visited the restaurant, I had lunch with Cecilia Peña-Govea, aka the singer La Doña, aka chief burrito reviewer for SF Gate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cecilia Peña-Govea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I grew up coming here. I came here when it first opened because our friend Duffy, who lives right here, she started coming here as soon as the place opened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We decided to try the popular mole burrito and we even went back into the kitchen to learn how to make it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sounds of a Kitchen/cooking Ambi]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So we meet Rosendo, who’s been cooking for El Metate for 20 years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rosendo:\u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Este es el pollo asado.\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cecilia Peña-Govea: \u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Y el mole —\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">¿Que tiene el mole? \u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rosendo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem> El Mole tiene el tres chiles: el chile de california, tiene chile negro, tiene chile ancho.\u003c/em> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Rosendo adds chicken, beans, and rice into the burrito and adds some toppings before drenching the whole thing in mole and wrapping it up in foil. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sounds of scooping then wrapping in foil]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And when Cecilia asks if this burrito is made in a Mission-style way…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cecilia Peña-Govea: \u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Y este es de estilo San Francisiense o…?\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rosendo:\u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm … nosotros somos del estado Guanajuato. \u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cecilia Peña-Govea: \u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Asi lo hacen alli? \u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rosendo:\u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Si, tradicionalmente allá. \u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s making it the same way Francisco would back in the Mexican state of Guanajuato.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And finally, Rosendo gave us the burrito, and Cecilia and I sat down in El Metate’s brightly colored dining room and dug in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[foil noises, eating]\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok it’s good. It’s really really good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cecilia Peña-Gova: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm hmm, ok. This is a nice round and salty mole. In this case, they have you can tell that they obviously have gotten a good fry on the spices before they integrate all the ingredients. But yeah, it’s bomb. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it should come as no surprise that it’s so good …because Francisco’s mother is behind the recipe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francisco Hernandez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, my mom’s Mole was never sweet. She said that the pepper had to be flavorful, but not sweet. My version of the mole It has a little bit of chocolate. It has the spices that she would use. It has garlic and onions. It’s something that is so popular that if we don’t have it, People ask for it. And it’s not on the menu. It’s a special.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You heard it here first. The mole burrito is a secret menu item for those in the know … and now, you’re in the know. Francisco’s chicken mole burrito was definitely a first for me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These sorts of innovations attract new customers and keep people coming back. And like Miguel mentioned, his customers have even come up with some new inventions for La Taqueria. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, at this point in the story, we’ve got two titans of burritos in the Mission who don’t know what a “Mission-style burrito” is … the idea of its existence breaks down even further when we consider culture. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, after finishing our mole burritos, Cecilia and I headed over to KQED studios to dive even deeper. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cecilia Peña-Govea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Does the Mission-style burrito exist? Mm. I mean, maybe. But I think it looks different for everybody. You know? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you mean by that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cecilia Peña-Govea:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s not like my brain is confused and I’m like, “What is it?” It’s more of that, like, as somebody who grew up enduring a lot of the violences of displacement and gentrification, I see the way in which cultural assets are packaged and commoditized. I don’t know, I don’t like it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Does it make you feel like Mission-style burritos are a creation that maybe comes from\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the neighborhood and culture but isn’t for the neighborhood and culture?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cecilia Peña-Govea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that anything that’s going to be like, this is the Mission style, blah, blah, blah, I automatically roll my eyes. I think that like a lot of us just become very kind of sketched out when there is kind of that vibe of like asking us to kind of identify and package any cultural asset or facet of cultural production. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like you’re being observed? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cecilia Peña-Govea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. It’s just so like, I don’t know, like, I don’t know, what am I going to tell you?\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it kind of sounds like you’re picking up on the authenticity — and I know that’s a loaded word — but, like, the authenticity of the term itself and not the food. Like, maybe it doesn’t fit because it’s made to market something that has sort of always existed and always been here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cecilia Peña-Govea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think authenticity is kind of like a marketing tool. So I think you just gotta keep an eye on who is marketing something as authentic or inauthentic. So like, why are we calling it authentic and what does this serve? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[music]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>César Saldaña: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I realize that no one really has a problem with Mission-style burritos. It’s the term itself that people take issue with because it feels like branding for something that has always existed and is constantly evolving. It seems like the term is trying to be bigger than the type of burrito it’s used to identify, something too broad with its defining feature being its size. And if you’re from the Mission, or from the Bay in general, you may have never even used the term “Mission-style burrito” because … it’s just a burrito.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And whether or not they originated with taquerias in the city, what we know for sure is that the burritos that people associate with the Mission are big, tightly wrapped in foil, and arguably one of the best comfort foods you can get. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As Gustavo Arellano said earlier, they taste good, they can make you feel good, and you’re always going to keep going back for more.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today’s episode was reported by César Saldana and produced by Amanda Font. Kelly O’Mara provided the interview tape with Gustavo Arellano. The voices of my KQED colleagues you heard at the top of the episode belong to…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sarah Augusta\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Josh Cassidy\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eric:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Eric Dahn\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oscar Palma\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nik:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Nik Altenburg\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Alex Tran\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Kelly O’Mara first got the ball rolling on this story in our monthly Bay Curious newsletter a few months back. That’s a place where we answer even more listener questions, share our monthly voting round, keep you posted about upcoming events and more. Head to BayCurious.org/newsletter to subscribe! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. The team behind it includes Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks so much for listening! I’ll see you next week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "a-no-booze-zone-around-uc-berkeley-its-real-and-why-the-claremont-hotel-was-dry-for-decades",
"title": "A 'No Booze Zone' Around UC Berkeley? It's Real — and Why the Claremont Hotel Was Dry for Decades",
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"headTitle": "A ‘No Booze Zone’ Around UC Berkeley? It’s Real — and Why the Claremont Hotel Was Dry for Decades | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you haven’t been to the bar at the Claremont Hotel… it is beautiful. Light floods in from windows that overlook the San Francisco Bay, and reflects off the textured metal ceiling. From the terrace, you can see the Golden Gate Bridge, Alcatraz and Angel Island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But for decades, even before Prohibition, the Claremont Hotel didn’t have a bar at all. Bay Curious listener Sam Hopkins lives nearby and wondered why. [baycuriousbug]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s always interesting to me that you’d have this really grand hotel and it’s beautiful in every way but it operated for a long time without a bar,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Were the owners involved with the temperance movement? Was there actually a speakeasy there? How did they finally get a bar after all?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To answer all this, we’ll need to step all the way back to the late 1800s.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The temperance movement and the University of California\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“The theory was, alcohol was the root of all evil,” explains Jef Findley, librarian at the Berkeley Public Library’s History Room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Prohibition was still 50 years in the future, and there was plenty of drinking going on. Northern California was considered especially depraved, full of gold miners and ruffians.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite this reputation, the first University of California campus was initially built in downtown Oakland. But members of the anti-alcohol temperance movement thought it was in “an unsavory part of Oakland because of bordellos and saloons,” says Findley. So in 1873, they moved it — to its present campus in Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then Berkeley was much more rural.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was populated probably by more cows than people at the time,” says Findley. “It was considered an OK place to send a bunch of 20-year-old men without having the evil influences of alcohol.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To further protect the students, a state law was added — California penal code section 172, banning the sale of alcohol within two miles of UC Berkeley. In 1876 that distance was reduced to one mile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Claremont Hotel would soon be built just under a mile away.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A business idea\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The UC trustees weren’t the only ones eyeing the East Bay hills for development. A pair of investors calling themselves the Realty Syndicate was buying up tens of thousands of acres, which they would soon develop into some of the fanciest neighborhoods in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Around 1900, Francis Marion “Borax” Smith bought the property that the Claremont is on today. Smith earned his fortune, and his nickname, from borax, a mineral with household and industrial uses. He mined it in Death Valley and hauled it with a 20-mule team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Shortly after he acquired the property, however, in a game of checkers, he lost it,” says Findley. “But he lost it to Frank Havens, a business partner of his.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since the property was within one mile of UC Berkeley — within the legal dry zone — Smith and Havens wouldn’t be able to sell alcohol at anything they built. But they had a much larger scheme in mind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Smith had used his borax fortune to buy up all the streetcar lines in the Bay Area, and some ferries. He unified all of it into a single network called the Key System. So he and Havens were selling not just sunny properties with beautiful views, but also a way to commute to work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They really appealed to the people who had a lot of money that lived in San Francisco when it was destroyed by the earthquake,” says Findley. “It’s like, this is a great place to relocate.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To entice potential homebuyers over from San Francisco, Smith and Havens built a tourist attraction at the end of their new streetcar line: the biggest hotel on the West Coast, shaped like a castle. The Claremont Hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A fairy tale hotel\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The hotel’s opening was timed to coincide with the 1915 Panama-Pacific International Exposition, a World’s Fair in San Francisco (the one the Palace of Fine Arts was built for). The original plan was for trains to pull right up into the lobby, but the station ended up being built in front of the hotel’s carriage entrance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Imagine arriving in your corset and your umbrella and your big steamer case,” says Michelle Heston, director of public relations for the Claremont Hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guests would enter under a stone archway and pass through the lobby, with its marble floors and velvet couches. If they liked, they could attend concerts and dances in the hotel’s grand ballroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is where the band would have performed,” says Heston, indicating a built-in stage with a shiny curtain. “And you’d have cocktail tables around the perimeter.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But no cocktails. The hotel still couldn’t sell alcohol. But that doesn’t mean people didn’t bring it in, speculates Heston. “What would you do?” she says. “I know what I’d do.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wink wink.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Prohibition and the Big Band era\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1920, alcohol became completely illegal nationwide. But dancing was still okay! Big bands performed at the Claremont all through the ’20s and ’30s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the UC Berkeley students came to dance! The Claremont ran advertisements in the Daily Cal, the student paper, for the college special: dancing, punch, and assorted sandwiches. All for a dollar. The Daily Cal also had a column called Who’s Whooie, about what the cool kids were doing, and it was always talking about how so-and-so went out to the Claremont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Heston says there are no records of a speakeasy in the hotel, but “there were always private rooms in hotels, that locked from the inside, that guests could rent for the evenings, that were meant for events.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11959658\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/IMG_1642-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11959658\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/IMG_1642-800x1067.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white image in a book of people dancing.\" width=\"800\" height=\"1067\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/IMG_1642-800x1067.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/IMG_1642-1020x1360.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/IMG_1642-160x213.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/IMG_1642-1152x1536.jpg 1152w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/IMG_1642-1536x2048.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/IMG_1642-scaled.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">80-year-old Lesley Emmington, who grew up in the neighborhood, thumbs through a book of Claremont Hotel photos. She remembers visiting this room as a girl. \u003ccite>(Katherine Monahan/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A 1922 photograph in a booklet of Claremont Hotel history shows jolly young men and women in suits and dresses, dancing in the ballroom. It says, “Prohibition did not dampen the enthusiasm of partygoers, some of whom recall carrying their portable bars to a suite for between-dance refreshment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So on the surface, Berkeley kept it pretty lawful and wholesome — unlike San Francisco and Oakland, which had obvious, active speakeasies and a reputation for not caring at all about Prohibition. When Prohibition eventually ended in 1933, that one-mile dry zone around the university finally started to hydrate.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>At last … Cheers!\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>First, beer was permitted within the dry zone. Then in 1937 the law changed again, to say that the one-mile distance could be measured by road, rather than as the crow flies. According to legend, a female Cal student was the first to measure the distance from the university to the hotel, showing that by road, it was indeed over a mile. And the hotel gave her free drinks for life. At least, that’s how the story goes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so finally, after more than two decades of serving punch and tea and the like, the Claremont Hotel was able to open a bar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lesley Emmington grew up right near the hotel. She is just 80 years old, so she was too young to go to the Claremont Hotel’s bar when it first opened, shortly before WWII broke out. But her cousin Lorraine was a student at Cal at the time, and she used to love going there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“During the war, you see the guys would come,” says Emmington. “They’d come from Treasure Island.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The naval base at Treasure Island was a last stop for young men heading out to Pacific battlegrounds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11959626\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 555px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/Claremont-E-train.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11959626\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/Claremont-E-train.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white image of the end of a train, taken on the tracks. In the background a large white hotel sits on a hillside.\" width=\"555\" height=\"550\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/Claremont-E-train.jpg 555w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/Claremont-E-train-160x159.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 555px) 100vw, 555px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An ‘E’ Line Train approaches the Claremont Hotel some time in the 1940s. \u003ccite>(Public Domain)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Sometimes the train would suddenly just be jammed with military guys,” says Emmington. “And they could come to the Claremont because it was right on the train … I mean, the whole Bay Area was just jammed with American young men who’d never been west, of course. And they were here and they were on limited time. It was crawling with the men.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And what did cousin Lorraine say about all that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Emmington laughs. “Well, she loved it!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, a good time was had by all, both with and without alcohol. And Berkeley eventually became the wild swinging Berkeley of the hippie era, but it took its time. It didn’t even allow people to dance and drink in the same room until the 1960s!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The funny part is, that one-mile law, which dates all the way back to 1855 … is still on the books! It’s been amended to bits, and obviously there are bars next to campus now. But the law is still there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The historic Claremont Hotel in Oakland is nothing short of an absolute stunner, OK. It’s got a castle-like architecture that looks like nothing else in the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The whole façade is brilliantly white … like even the windows and roof tiles are white! So it really pops against the Eucalyptus grove behind it. And it’s bursting with amenities — a pool, tennis courts, a spa … the works.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But the one amenity it didn’t have for a very long time? A bar.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Hopkins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s always interesting to me that you’d have this really grand hotel and it’s beautiful in every way but it operated for a long time without a bar. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Sam Hopkins of Oakland. He lives near the Claremont Hotel and over the years has heard a lot of speculation about why the hotel didn’t serve alcohol long before Prohibition took hold. Were the owners a part of the temperance movement, promoting abstinence from alcohol? Was there actually a speakeasy there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’d heard there’s a legend or a myth about a Berkeley co-ed who was part of helping them get their liquor license. So that’s an interesting story too, though I don’t know if it’s true or not. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What took so long for the place to finally get a bar? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Which just seems so crazy to think of a hotel without a bar, especially one of that stature.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today on Bay Curious we’re answering Sam’s question, which was the winner of our July voting round on BayCurious.org. Today’s the last day to vote in August’s round, by the way, so be sure to check those questions out… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll get to it after this quick break…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re answering Sam’s question about why the Claremont Hotel didn’t have a bar in its early years. Well, spoiler alert, they eventually did get a bar, and we sent reporter Katherine Monahan to check it out, try a drink and get the backstory…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Sound of bartender shaking a cocktail in a crowded bar]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The light is soaking in from the bay … reflecting off the textured metal ceiling. The floor is these … tiny black and white tiles radiating into hexagons. And…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Sound of a drink being poured]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">…my drink is ready.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene): \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What was the name of this again?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bartender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Rosa Mexicano.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene): \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s beautiful.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It looks like a unicorn’s crystal jacuzzi. It’s all pink and frothy. It goes perfectly with the fairy tale castle look of this hotel. And the terrace, where I’m about to carry my drink?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene): \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I can see the Bay Bridge. I can see the Golden Gate. I can see Mount Tam, Alcatraz, Treasure Island. That’s Angel Island. I mean this is spectacular.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But the terrace bar hasn’t always been here. For decades, the Claremont Hotel didn’t have a bar at all. And to understand why, we’ll need to step all the way back to the late 1800s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Old-timey music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jef Findley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The theory was, alcohol was the root of all evil. So get rid of alcohol, and you’ll get rid of a lot of the evils. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Jef Findley is the librarian at the Berkeley Public Library’s History Room. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jef Findley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The temperance movement was really taking on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Prohibition was still 50 years in the future, and there was plenty of drinking going on. Northern California was considered especially depraved, full of gold-miners and ruffians.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Saloon sound effects, someone get punched] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But that was where the first University of California was built – in downtown Oakland!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jef Findley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The professors and the like found that it was in an unsavory part of Oakland because of bordellos and saloons. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So in 1873, they moved it — to its present campus in Berkeley. Back then Berkeley was much more rural.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jef Findley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was populated probably by more cows than people at the time, it was considered as an okay place to send a bunch of 20-year-old men without having the evil influences of alcohol. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To further protect the students, a state law was added: California penal code section 172, banning the sale of alcohol within two miles of UC Berkeley.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jef Findley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But then, cooler heads prevailed in 1876. They reduced that to one mile. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Claremont Hotel would soon be built just under one mile away.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now the UC trustees weren’t the only ones eyeing the East Bay hills. A pair of investors calling themselves the Realty Syndicate was buying up tens of thousands of acres. Which they would soon develop into some of the fanciest neighborhoods in the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jef Findley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">By about 1900, Francis “Borax” Smith acquired the property that the Claremont is on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Smith had earned his fortune — and his nickname — from borax, a mineral with household and industrial uses. He mined it in Death Valley and hauled it with a 20-mule team. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jef Findley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Shortly after he acquired the property, however, in a game of checkers, he lost it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene): \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Checkers?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jef Findley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Checkers. But he lost it to Frank Havens, a business partner of his.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Since the property was within one mile of UC Berkeley — within the legal dry zone — Smith and Havens wouldn’t be able to sell alcohol on it. But they had a much larger scheme in mind.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jef Findley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The people that were doing all this were all about making money.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Smith had used his borax fortune to buy up all the streetcar lines in the Bay Area, and some ferries, and unify all of it into a single network called the Key System. So he and Havens were selling, not just sunny properties with beautiful views, but also a way to commute to work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Go ahead and guess how long it took to get from Berkeley to the city in 1906 via electric train and ferry? 35 minutes!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jef Findley:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> They really appealed to the people who had a lot of money that lived in San Francisco when it was destroyed by the earthquake. It’s like this is a great place to relocate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To entice potential homebuyers over from the city, Smith and Havens built a tourist attraction at the end of their new streetcar line: the biggest hotel on the west coast, shaped like a castle. The Claremont Hotel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The opening was timed to go with the World’s Fair in San Francisco, the one that the Palace of Fine Arts was built for. It was 1915.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So the train would have dropped us off right here.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, the train would have dropped off guests. And then you could walk up kind of this grand promenade under the stone masonry arch \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> With all these same kind of flowers on the side? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Exactly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Michelle Heston is director of public relations for the Claremont Hotel. She says the original plan was for the trains to pull up right up into the lobby. But the station ended up outside, in front of the carriage entrance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Imagine arriving right in your corset and your umbrella and your big steamer case \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I was wearing a corset? Did I have a horse?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> (laughing) You were probably from a wealthy family. So you probably arrived in a carriage. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Oh. of course.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Heston shows me in through the stone archway, through the lobby, with its marble floors and velvet couches.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Gosh it’s pretty\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Isn’t it pretty?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: A\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">nd into the hotel’s ballroom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It smells old – not in a bad way.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> (giggles) No, it does.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s a long, wide room, with thick columns, and a carpet, and a big built-in stage with a shiny curtain.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So this is where the band would have performed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And the dancers back here? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Exactly. And you’d have cocktail tables around the perimeter, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> But no cocktails!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> (laughing) Yes, exactly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So it was not permitted for alcohol to be sold near the university. But prior to and after Prohibition, there was nothing against actually having alcohol or drinking it so far as I understand, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That’s what I understand as well. So what would you do? (laughing)\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I mean, come on. (both laughing)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I know what I’d do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, just because the hotel couldn’t sell alcohol, doesn’t mean people didn’t bring it in. Then came Prohibition in 1920. Alcohol became completely illegal nationwide. But dancing was still okay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[A Charleston tune plays]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Big bands performed at the Claremont all through the ’20s and ’30s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Ambience of people in a large ballroom, accompanied by music] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And the UC Berkeley students, those vulnerable, innocent students, came to dance! The Claremont ran advertisements in the Daily Cal, the student paper, for the college special: dancing, punch, and assorted sandwiches, for a dollar! The Daily Cal also had a column called Who’s Whooie, about what the cool kids were doing, and it was always talking about how so-and-so went out to the Claremont.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Heston says there are no records of a speakeasy in the hotel, but…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> There were always private rooms in hotels, that locked from the inside, that guests could rent for the evenings, that were meant for events. So…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We check out a 1922 photograph in a booklet of Claremont Hotel history. It shows jolly young men and women in suits and dresses, dancing in the ballroom.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It says, “Prohibition did not dampen the enthusiasm of party goers, some of whom recall carrying their portable bars to a suite for between-dance refreshment.” \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> There you go, see?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That’s what you’re talking about?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That’s what I’m talking about. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So it wasn’t even like they were sleeping in the suite necessarily.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Probably not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So on the surface, Berkeley kept it pretty lawful and wholesome. Unlike San Francisco and Oakland, which had obvious, active speakeasies and a reputation for not caring at all. But when Prohibition ended in 1933, that one-mile dry zone around the university finally started to hydrate. First, beer was permitted.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Then in 1937 the law changed again, to say that the one mile distance could be measured by road, rather than as the crow flies. According to legend…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It was a group of students that actually went and measured it out from the closest Cal campus building.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And the hotel gave free drinks for life to the girl who showed that it was over a mile. At least, that’s how the story goes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And so finally, after more than two decades of serving punch and tea and the like, the Claremont Hotel got to open a bar. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Lesley Emmington grew up right near the hotel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley Emmington:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I heard it always referred to, and my cousin Lorraine going, “Oh, it was so much fun.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Emmington is just 80 years old — so she was too young to go to the bar when it first opened, shortly before WWII broke out. But her cousin Lorraine was a student at Cal at the time, and she used to love going there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[1940s swinging jazz music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley Emmington:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> During the war, you see the guys would come. They’d come from Treasure Island. And you could come on the train. That would be a stop coming across the bridge. Sometimes the train would suddenly just be jammed with military guys. And then they could come to the Claremont, too, see? Because it was right on the train. It was built to be end of the line. So you could either go to the city, or you could come over to the Claremont.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Wow. So, people coming to the Claremont just partying coming from the military.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley Emmington:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, I mean, the whole Bay Area was just jammed with American young men who’d never been west, of course. And they were here and they were on limited time. It was crawling with the men. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And what did cousin Lorraine say about all that? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley Emmington:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Well, she loved it. (laughs)\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, a good time was had by all, both with and without alcohol. And Berkeley eventually became the wild swinging Berkeley of the hippy era, but it took its time. It didn’t even allow people to dance and drink in the same room until the 1960s!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Here’s the part that’s the funniest to me: that one mile law, which dates all the way back to 1855 … is still on the books! It’s just been amended to bits, and obviously there are bars next to campus now. But the law is still there! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Ambience of a college bar, patrons can be heard and a reggae tune] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So in honor of the old temperance movement and California penal code section 172, I am having one more drink, this time right across the street from UC Berkeley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Cheers!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That was KQED’s Katherine Monahan.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Before you go, I have a favor to ask. Could you open your podcast player and make sure you’re “Subscribed” to the Bay Curious podcast? Only a small percentage of listeners to this show are actually subscribed, and those subscription numbers really help us out. They also help you to make sure not to miss a future episode. Win-win, right? Thanks for subscribing!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made by Amanda Font, Christopher Bveale and Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana and Holly Kernan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We will be dark next week so our team can rest up over Labor Day. We’ll be back on September 14th with a fresh episode.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a fantastic week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you haven’t been to the bar at the Claremont Hotel… it is beautiful. Light floods in from windows that overlook the San Francisco Bay, and reflects off the textured metal ceiling. From the terrace, you can see the Golden Gate Bridge, Alcatraz and Angel Island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But for decades, even before Prohibition, the Claremont Hotel didn’t have a bar at all. Bay Curious listener Sam Hopkins lives nearby and wondered why. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s always interesting to me that you’d have this really grand hotel and it’s beautiful in every way but it operated for a long time without a bar,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Were the owners involved with the temperance movement? Was there actually a speakeasy there? How did they finally get a bar after all?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To answer all this, we’ll need to step all the way back to the late 1800s.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The temperance movement and the University of California\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“The theory was, alcohol was the root of all evil,” explains Jef Findley, librarian at the Berkeley Public Library’s History Room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Prohibition was still 50 years in the future, and there was plenty of drinking going on. Northern California was considered especially depraved, full of gold miners and ruffians.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite this reputation, the first University of California campus was initially built in downtown Oakland. But members of the anti-alcohol temperance movement thought it was in “an unsavory part of Oakland because of bordellos and saloons,” says Findley. So in 1873, they moved it — to its present campus in Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then Berkeley was much more rural.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was populated probably by more cows than people at the time,” says Findley. “It was considered an OK place to send a bunch of 20-year-old men without having the evil influences of alcohol.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To further protect the students, a state law was added — California penal code section 172, banning the sale of alcohol within two miles of UC Berkeley. In 1876 that distance was reduced to one mile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Claremont Hotel would soon be built just under a mile away.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A business idea\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The UC trustees weren’t the only ones eyeing the East Bay hills for development. A pair of investors calling themselves the Realty Syndicate was buying up tens of thousands of acres, which they would soon develop into some of the fanciest neighborhoods in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Around 1900, Francis Marion “Borax” Smith bought the property that the Claremont is on today. Smith earned his fortune, and his nickname, from borax, a mineral with household and industrial uses. He mined it in Death Valley and hauled it with a 20-mule team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Shortly after he acquired the property, however, in a game of checkers, he lost it,” says Findley. “But he lost it to Frank Havens, a business partner of his.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since the property was within one mile of UC Berkeley — within the legal dry zone — Smith and Havens wouldn’t be able to sell alcohol at anything they built. But they had a much larger scheme in mind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Smith had used his borax fortune to buy up all the streetcar lines in the Bay Area, and some ferries. He unified all of it into a single network called the Key System. So he and Havens were selling not just sunny properties with beautiful views, but also a way to commute to work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They really appealed to the people who had a lot of money that lived in San Francisco when it was destroyed by the earthquake,” says Findley. “It’s like, this is a great place to relocate.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To entice potential homebuyers over from San Francisco, Smith and Havens built a tourist attraction at the end of their new streetcar line: the biggest hotel on the West Coast, shaped like a castle. The Claremont Hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A fairy tale hotel\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The hotel’s opening was timed to coincide with the 1915 Panama-Pacific International Exposition, a World’s Fair in San Francisco (the one the Palace of Fine Arts was built for). The original plan was for trains to pull right up into the lobby, but the station ended up being built in front of the hotel’s carriage entrance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Imagine arriving in your corset and your umbrella and your big steamer case,” says Michelle Heston, director of public relations for the Claremont Hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guests would enter under a stone archway and pass through the lobby, with its marble floors and velvet couches. If they liked, they could attend concerts and dances in the hotel’s grand ballroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is where the band would have performed,” says Heston, indicating a built-in stage with a shiny curtain. “And you’d have cocktail tables around the perimeter.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But no cocktails. The hotel still couldn’t sell alcohol. But that doesn’t mean people didn’t bring it in, speculates Heston. “What would you do?” she says. “I know what I’d do.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wink wink.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Prohibition and the Big Band era\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1920, alcohol became completely illegal nationwide. But dancing was still okay! Big bands performed at the Claremont all through the ’20s and ’30s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the UC Berkeley students came to dance! The Claremont ran advertisements in the Daily Cal, the student paper, for the college special: dancing, punch, and assorted sandwiches. All for a dollar. The Daily Cal also had a column called Who’s Whooie, about what the cool kids were doing, and it was always talking about how so-and-so went out to the Claremont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Heston says there are no records of a speakeasy in the hotel, but “there were always private rooms in hotels, that locked from the inside, that guests could rent for the evenings, that were meant for events.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11959658\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/IMG_1642-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11959658\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/IMG_1642-800x1067.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white image in a book of people dancing.\" width=\"800\" height=\"1067\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/IMG_1642-800x1067.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/IMG_1642-1020x1360.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/IMG_1642-160x213.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/IMG_1642-1152x1536.jpg 1152w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/IMG_1642-1536x2048.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/IMG_1642-scaled.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">80-year-old Lesley Emmington, who grew up in the neighborhood, thumbs through a book of Claremont Hotel photos. She remembers visiting this room as a girl. \u003ccite>(Katherine Monahan/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A 1922 photograph in a booklet of Claremont Hotel history shows jolly young men and women in suits and dresses, dancing in the ballroom. It says, “Prohibition did not dampen the enthusiasm of partygoers, some of whom recall carrying their portable bars to a suite for between-dance refreshment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So on the surface, Berkeley kept it pretty lawful and wholesome — unlike San Francisco and Oakland, which had obvious, active speakeasies and a reputation for not caring at all about Prohibition. When Prohibition eventually ended in 1933, that one-mile dry zone around the university finally started to hydrate.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>At last … Cheers!\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>First, beer was permitted within the dry zone. Then in 1937 the law changed again, to say that the one-mile distance could be measured by road, rather than as the crow flies. According to legend, a female Cal student was the first to measure the distance from the university to the hotel, showing that by road, it was indeed over a mile. And the hotel gave her free drinks for life. At least, that’s how the story goes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so finally, after more than two decades of serving punch and tea and the like, the Claremont Hotel was able to open a bar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lesley Emmington grew up right near the hotel. She is just 80 years old, so she was too young to go to the Claremont Hotel’s bar when it first opened, shortly before WWII broke out. But her cousin Lorraine was a student at Cal at the time, and she used to love going there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“During the war, you see the guys would come,” says Emmington. “They’d come from Treasure Island.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The naval base at Treasure Island was a last stop for young men heading out to Pacific battlegrounds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11959626\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 555px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/Claremont-E-train.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11959626\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/Claremont-E-train.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white image of the end of a train, taken on the tracks. In the background a large white hotel sits on a hillside.\" width=\"555\" height=\"550\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/Claremont-E-train.jpg 555w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/Claremont-E-train-160x159.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 555px) 100vw, 555px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An ‘E’ Line Train approaches the Claremont Hotel some time in the 1940s. \u003ccite>(Public Domain)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Sometimes the train would suddenly just be jammed with military guys,” says Emmington. “And they could come to the Claremont because it was right on the train … I mean, the whole Bay Area was just jammed with American young men who’d never been west, of course. And they were here and they were on limited time. It was crawling with the men.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And what did cousin Lorraine say about all that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Emmington laughs. “Well, she loved it!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, a good time was had by all, both with and without alcohol. And Berkeley eventually became the wild swinging Berkeley of the hippie era, but it took its time. It didn’t even allow people to dance and drink in the same room until the 1960s!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The funny part is, that one-mile law, which dates all the way back to 1855 … is still on the books! It’s been amended to bits, and obviously there are bars next to campus now. But the law is still there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The historic Claremont Hotel in Oakland is nothing short of an absolute stunner, OK. It’s got a castle-like architecture that looks like nothing else in the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The whole façade is brilliantly white … like even the windows and roof tiles are white! So it really pops against the Eucalyptus grove behind it. And it’s bursting with amenities — a pool, tennis courts, a spa … the works.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But the one amenity it didn’t have for a very long time? A bar.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Hopkins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s always interesting to me that you’d have this really grand hotel and it’s beautiful in every way but it operated for a long time without a bar. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Sam Hopkins of Oakland. He lives near the Claremont Hotel and over the years has heard a lot of speculation about why the hotel didn’t serve alcohol long before Prohibition took hold. Were the owners a part of the temperance movement, promoting abstinence from alcohol? Was there actually a speakeasy there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’d heard there’s a legend or a myth about a Berkeley co-ed who was part of helping them get their liquor license. So that’s an interesting story too, though I don’t know if it’s true or not. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What took so long for the place to finally get a bar? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Which just seems so crazy to think of a hotel without a bar, especially one of that stature.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today on Bay Curious we’re answering Sam’s question, which was the winner of our July voting round on BayCurious.org. Today’s the last day to vote in August’s round, by the way, so be sure to check those questions out… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll get to it after this quick break…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re answering Sam’s question about why the Claremont Hotel didn’t have a bar in its early years. Well, spoiler alert, they eventually did get a bar, and we sent reporter Katherine Monahan to check it out, try a drink and get the backstory…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Sound of bartender shaking a cocktail in a crowded bar]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The light is soaking in from the bay … reflecting off the textured metal ceiling. The floor is these … tiny black and white tiles radiating into hexagons. And…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Sound of a drink being poured]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">…my drink is ready.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene): \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What was the name of this again?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bartender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Rosa Mexicano.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene): \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s beautiful.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It looks like a unicorn’s crystal jacuzzi. It’s all pink and frothy. It goes perfectly with the fairy tale castle look of this hotel. And the terrace, where I’m about to carry my drink?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene): \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I can see the Bay Bridge. I can see the Golden Gate. I can see Mount Tam, Alcatraz, Treasure Island. That’s Angel Island. I mean this is spectacular.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But the terrace bar hasn’t always been here. For decades, the Claremont Hotel didn’t have a bar at all. And to understand why, we’ll need to step all the way back to the late 1800s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Old-timey music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jef Findley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The theory was, alcohol was the root of all evil. So get rid of alcohol, and you’ll get rid of a lot of the evils. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Jef Findley is the librarian at the Berkeley Public Library’s History Room. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jef Findley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The temperance movement was really taking on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Prohibition was still 50 years in the future, and there was plenty of drinking going on. Northern California was considered especially depraved, full of gold-miners and ruffians.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Saloon sound effects, someone get punched] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But that was where the first University of California was built – in downtown Oakland!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jef Findley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The professors and the like found that it was in an unsavory part of Oakland because of bordellos and saloons. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So in 1873, they moved it — to its present campus in Berkeley. Back then Berkeley was much more rural.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jef Findley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was populated probably by more cows than people at the time, it was considered as an okay place to send a bunch of 20-year-old men without having the evil influences of alcohol. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To further protect the students, a state law was added: California penal code section 172, banning the sale of alcohol within two miles of UC Berkeley.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jef Findley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But then, cooler heads prevailed in 1876. They reduced that to one mile. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Claremont Hotel would soon be built just under one mile away.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now the UC trustees weren’t the only ones eyeing the East Bay hills. A pair of investors calling themselves the Realty Syndicate was buying up tens of thousands of acres. Which they would soon develop into some of the fanciest neighborhoods in the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jef Findley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">By about 1900, Francis “Borax” Smith acquired the property that the Claremont is on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Smith had earned his fortune — and his nickname — from borax, a mineral with household and industrial uses. He mined it in Death Valley and hauled it with a 20-mule team. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jef Findley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Shortly after he acquired the property, however, in a game of checkers, he lost it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene): \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Checkers?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jef Findley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Checkers. But he lost it to Frank Havens, a business partner of his.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Since the property was within one mile of UC Berkeley — within the legal dry zone — Smith and Havens wouldn’t be able to sell alcohol on it. But they had a much larger scheme in mind.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jef Findley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The people that were doing all this were all about making money.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Smith had used his borax fortune to buy up all the streetcar lines in the Bay Area, and some ferries, and unify all of it into a single network called the Key System. So he and Havens were selling, not just sunny properties with beautiful views, but also a way to commute to work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Go ahead and guess how long it took to get from Berkeley to the city in 1906 via electric train and ferry? 35 minutes!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jef Findley:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> They really appealed to the people who had a lot of money that lived in San Francisco when it was destroyed by the earthquake. It’s like this is a great place to relocate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To entice potential homebuyers over from the city, Smith and Havens built a tourist attraction at the end of their new streetcar line: the biggest hotel on the west coast, shaped like a castle. The Claremont Hotel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The opening was timed to go with the World’s Fair in San Francisco, the one that the Palace of Fine Arts was built for. It was 1915.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So the train would have dropped us off right here.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, the train would have dropped off guests. And then you could walk up kind of this grand promenade under the stone masonry arch \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> With all these same kind of flowers on the side? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Exactly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Michelle Heston is director of public relations for the Claremont Hotel. She says the original plan was for the trains to pull up right up into the lobby. But the station ended up outside, in front of the carriage entrance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Imagine arriving right in your corset and your umbrella and your big steamer case \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I was wearing a corset? Did I have a horse?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> (laughing) You were probably from a wealthy family. So you probably arrived in a carriage. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Oh. of course.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Heston shows me in through the stone archway, through the lobby, with its marble floors and velvet couches.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Gosh it’s pretty\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Isn’t it pretty?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: A\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">nd into the hotel’s ballroom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It smells old – not in a bad way.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> (giggles) No, it does.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s a long, wide room, with thick columns, and a carpet, and a big built-in stage with a shiny curtain.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So this is where the band would have performed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And the dancers back here? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Exactly. And you’d have cocktail tables around the perimeter, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> But no cocktails!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> (laughing) Yes, exactly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So it was not permitted for alcohol to be sold near the university. But prior to and after Prohibition, there was nothing against actually having alcohol or drinking it so far as I understand, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That’s what I understand as well. So what would you do? (laughing)\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I mean, come on. (both laughing)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I know what I’d do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, just because the hotel couldn’t sell alcohol, doesn’t mean people didn’t bring it in. Then came Prohibition in 1920. Alcohol became completely illegal nationwide. But dancing was still okay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[A Charleston tune plays]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Big bands performed at the Claremont all through the ’20s and ’30s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Ambience of people in a large ballroom, accompanied by music] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And the UC Berkeley students, those vulnerable, innocent students, came to dance! The Claremont ran advertisements in the Daily Cal, the student paper, for the college special: dancing, punch, and assorted sandwiches, for a dollar! The Daily Cal also had a column called Who’s Whooie, about what the cool kids were doing, and it was always talking about how so-and-so went out to the Claremont.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Heston says there are no records of a speakeasy in the hotel, but…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> There were always private rooms in hotels, that locked from the inside, that guests could rent for the evenings, that were meant for events. So…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We check out a 1922 photograph in a booklet of Claremont Hotel history. It shows jolly young men and women in suits and dresses, dancing in the ballroom.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It says, “Prohibition did not dampen the enthusiasm of party goers, some of whom recall carrying their portable bars to a suite for between-dance refreshment.” \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> There you go, see?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That’s what you’re talking about?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That’s what I’m talking about. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So it wasn’t even like they were sleeping in the suite necessarily.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Probably not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So on the surface, Berkeley kept it pretty lawful and wholesome. Unlike San Francisco and Oakland, which had obvious, active speakeasies and a reputation for not caring at all. But when Prohibition ended in 1933, that one-mile dry zone around the university finally started to hydrate. First, beer was permitted.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Then in 1937 the law changed again, to say that the one mile distance could be measured by road, rather than as the crow flies. According to legend…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Heston:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It was a group of students that actually went and measured it out from the closest Cal campus building.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And the hotel gave free drinks for life to the girl who showed that it was over a mile. At least, that’s how the story goes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And so finally, after more than two decades of serving punch and tea and the like, the Claremont Hotel got to open a bar. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Lesley Emmington grew up right near the hotel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley Emmington:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I heard it always referred to, and my cousin Lorraine going, “Oh, it was so much fun.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Emmington is just 80 years old — so she was too young to go to the bar when it first opened, shortly before WWII broke out. But her cousin Lorraine was a student at Cal at the time, and she used to love going there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[1940s swinging jazz music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley Emmington:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> During the war, you see the guys would come. They’d come from Treasure Island. And you could come on the train. That would be a stop coming across the bridge. Sometimes the train would suddenly just be jammed with military guys. And then they could come to the Claremont, too, see? Because it was right on the train. It was built to be end of the line. So you could either go to the city, or you could come over to the Claremont.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Wow. So, people coming to the Claremont just partying coming from the military.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley Emmington:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, I mean, the whole Bay Area was just jammed with American young men who’d never been west, of course. And they were here and they were on limited time. It was crawling with the men. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And what did cousin Lorraine say about all that? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley Emmington:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Well, she loved it. (laughs)\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, a good time was had by all, both with and without alcohol. And Berkeley eventually became the wild swinging Berkeley of the hippy era, but it took its time. It didn’t even allow people to dance and drink in the same room until the 1960s!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Here’s the part that’s the funniest to me: that one mile law, which dates all the way back to 1855 … is still on the books! It’s just been amended to bits, and obviously there are bars next to campus now. But the law is still there! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Ambience of a college bar, patrons can be heard and a reggae tune] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So in honor of the old temperance movement and California penal code section 172, I am having one more drink, this time right across the street from UC Berkeley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Katherine Monahan (on scene):\u003c/i>\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Cheers!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That was KQED’s Katherine Monahan.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Before you go, I have a favor to ask. Could you open your podcast player and make sure you’re “Subscribed” to the Bay Curious podcast? Only a small percentage of listeners to this show are actually subscribed, and those subscription numbers really help us out. They also help you to make sure not to miss a future episode. Win-win, right? Thanks for subscribing!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made by Amanda Font, Christopher Bveale and Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana and Holly Kernan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We will be dark next week so our team can rest up over Labor Day. We’ll be back on September 14th with a fresh episode.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a fantastic week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "The First San Mateo-Hayward Bridge Was a Big Deal in 1929",
"headTitle": "The First San Mateo-Hayward Bridge Was a Big Deal in 1929 | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode. \u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kathleen McKusick used to work in Foster City near Bridgeview Park which, as its name suggests, offers a fine view of the San Mateo-Hayward Bridge. One day, while riding bikes with her daughter along the nearby Bay Trail, she stumbled upon a remnant of the original 1929 San Mateo Bridge that once crossed over the San Francisco Bay. [baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Which raised all kinds of questions in my mind,” McKusick said. She wrote to Bay Curious looking to learn about the bridge. “I would love to know more about that original bridge in its heyday.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>McKusick Googled it, naturally, as did I, and there just isn’t a whole lot out there. The best resource?\u003ca href=\"https://www.haywardareahistory.org/hayward-san-mateo-bridge\"> A single article\u003c/a> written a few years ago for the Hayward Historical Society by John Christian, formerly an archivist there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Turns out this bridge was once the longest bridge in North America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/Bridges_2412527-e1692820851937.jpg\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11958901\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/Bridges_2412527-e1692820851937-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"Looking down an old section of a now unused bridge that runs off into the distance and terminates just before the horizon line. To the left of it is the new bridge that replaced it. Both bridges run over calm reflective blue water.\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/Bridges_2412527-e1692820851937-800x600.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/Bridges_2412527-e1692820851937-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/Bridges_2412527-e1692820851937-160x120.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/Bridges_2412527-e1692820851937-1536x1152.jpg 1536w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/Bridges_2412527-e1692820851937.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A little stub alongside the new San Mateo-Hayward Bridge is all that remains of the original from 1929.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The history of the bridge\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>We all met at the Bridgeview Park, where you can spy a little stub of the old bridge alongside the big new one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is the first time I’ve been over here. I guess I’m too Hayward-centric. I’ve never really seen it from this side, to be honest,” Christian said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Christian, the bridge was originally proposed in 1922 by the Oakland Chamber of Commerce, as a way to jump start business between the Peninsula and the East Bay. Construction began in December 1927. A little more than a year later, on March 2, 1929, there was a grand opening of what was then called the “San Francisco Bay Toll-Bridge.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The bridge opening in 1929 was a big deal for the Bay Area, and President Calvin Coolidge participated in the dedication by pressing a telegraph button in Washington, D.C. that directed the unfurling of an American flag from the bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco Mayor James Rolph, who was known to love attending celebrations of almost any kind, was the biggest local celebrity to show up in person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not unlike the Golden Gate Bridge to the north, this bridge helped farmers get their goods to market. In the 1920s, the region on both sides of the Bay was rural, as opposed to suburban, as it is today. Think farms, orchards, canneries, salt harvesting and the like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11958903\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/hsmb-truck-crossing-e1692821339637.jpg\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11958903\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/hsmb-truck-crossing-e1692821339637-800x586.jpg\" alt=\"Archival image of a 1920s-era transport truck carrying crates of ketchup. Two large American flags are mounted on poles near the front of the truck.\" width=\"800\" height=\"586\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/hsmb-truck-crossing-e1692821339637-800x586.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/hsmb-truck-crossing-e1692821339637-1020x747.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/hsmb-truck-crossing-e1692821339637-160x117.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/hsmb-truck-crossing-e1692821339637-1536x1126.jpg 1536w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/hsmb-truck-crossing-e1692821339637.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Hayward cannery truck crosses the bridge bringing Hayward ‘Quality Tomato Catsup’ to San Mateo as part of the 1929 dedication. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Hayward Area Historical Society)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And maybe because it wasn’t designed primarily for commuter traffic, the original bridge was only 30 feet wide with just two lanes, and about 7 miles long. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Looking at the new bridge, I mean, compared to the old bridge, this bridge is a monster. You know, this is like, 6 lanes. The original bridge would have been just two lanes, back and forth,” Christian said. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Petite, and also, I have to say, terrifying. Right? Especially if there’s a stiff wind? Picking up off the water? Driving a Model T Ford? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Nobody was blown into the water, as far as I can tell,” Christian said. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fun fact: The original toll was 45 cents, about $8 in today’s money! So, Christian says, adjusted for inflation, it was more expensive to cross in 1929 than it is today. Takes the sting out of today’s $7 toll? Or maybe not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11958902\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/California_-_San_Francisco_-_NARA_-_23935735-scaled-e1692820873825.jpg\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11958902\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/California_-_San_Francisco_-_NARA_-_23935735-scaled-e1692820873825-800x620.jpg\" alt=\"A black and white archival aerial photo of the middle section of a long bridge passing over the San Francisco Bay.\" width=\"800\" height=\"620\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/California_-_San_Francisco_-_NARA_-_23935735-scaled-e1692820873825-800x620.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/California_-_San_Francisco_-_NARA_-_23935735-scaled-e1692820873825-1020x790.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/California_-_San_Francisco_-_NARA_-_23935735-scaled-e1692820873825-160x124.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/California_-_San_Francisco_-_NARA_-_23935735-scaled-e1692820873825-1536x1190.jpg 1536w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/California_-_San_Francisco_-_NARA_-_23935735-scaled-e1692820873825.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The cause of commuter traffic on what was then the San Francisco Bay Toll-Bridge when the Model T was king. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the U.S. National Archives and Records Administration)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Dreams of a bigger bridge\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By 1954, 7,400 cars and trucks were crossing every day and newspapers were calling the old bridge an “antique.” The rural towns on either side of the Bay had become suburbs, and the bridge wasn’t designed to carry that kind of capacity.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“It was a small bridge taking you to a small place. And now it’s this massive [bridge taking you from] city center to city center,” said Christian.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As time went on, the biggest complaint about this bridge was not how slender it was, but the electric drawbridge that went up on average 6 times a day to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">let marine traffic pass underneath.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That brought cars and trucks on the bridge to a standstill. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So in 1961, the groundwork was laid for the construction of a wider, taller bridge, to be built just a few feet north of the original span. The old bridge was dismantled, piece by piece, except for the small bit you can still see from Bridgeview Park today. And while there are now longer bridges in North America, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">according to the state’s \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://dot.ca.gov/-/media/dot-media/programs/research-innovation-system-information/documents/final-reports/ca18-2997-finalreport.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Department of Transportation (PDF)\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, the new bridge is still the longest bridge in California. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">McKusick’s thoughts on learning the full story? “I really wish that the pier were open and I could walk out onto the bridge. That would be a dream come true.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey everyone! You’re listening to the Bay Curious podcast, where we explore the Bay Area one question at a time. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did you know that the Bay Area was once home to the longest bridge in North America? And also one of the skinniest?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">original\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> bridge that ran between San Mateo and Hayward, or Hayward and San Mateo, depending on which side of the Bay you sit on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kathleen McKusick of Redwood City used to work in biotech near Bridgeview Park in Foster City. Which is how she came to ask us this question: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathleen McKusick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I stumbled across a remnant of the 1929 San Mateo Bridge about a dozen years ago. I would love to know more about that original bridge in its heyday. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have a lot of spectacular bridges here in the Bay Area. But let’s be honest, the San Mateo-Hayward bridge doesn’t get a ton of love. Today we’re putting her in the spotlight, and learning more about the original bridge that helped shape our region. We’ll be right back!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This week, we’re answering a question from Kathleen, that was selected by you, our audience, in a monthly voting round. If you want a say in what we cover, vote in our current poll at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious/\">Bay Curious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, so Kathleen wants to know the story behind what remains of what was then called the “San Francisco Bay Toll-Bridge” … We sent KQED’s Rachael Myrow to check it out …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sounds of a park outdoors, highway traffic can be heard in the background]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you’ve walked or cycled along the Bay Trail on the Peninsula, you know it passes under the San Mateo-Hayward Bridge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathleen McKusick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My daughter and I were here on the weekend to ride bikes on the Bay Trail, and we went on the bikes a little farther than I usually went on foot, and here was this astonishing little piece of a bridge. Which raised all kinds of questions in my mind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kathleen McKusick Googled it, naturally, as did I\u003c/span> \u003cb>…\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and … there just isn’t a whole lot out there … The best resource? ONE article written a few years ago for the Hayward Historical Society… an article written by THIS guy:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> John Christian, formerly an archivist at the Hayward Historical Society.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We all met at the Bridgeview Park, where you can spy a little stub of the old bridge alongside the big new one. It’s a noisy park. You can hear the traffic from the new bridge, not to mention planes flying overhead from SFO.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the first time I’ve been over here. I guess I’m too Hayward-centric. But yeah, I’ve never really seen it from this side, to be honest.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to Christian, the Hayward-San Mateo Bridge was originally proposed in 1922, by \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the Oakland Chamber of Commerce\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, as a way to jump start commerce between the Peninsula and the East Bay. Construction began in December of 1927. Flash forward to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">March 2, 1929, and we have …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Old timey music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The grand opening of what was then called the \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">San Francisco Bay Toll-Bridge\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">! Now, quick production note. Nineteen-twenty-nine is a tricky time for sound reporters in the Bay. Much of the news footage from that era was still silent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Archival recording of Calvin Coolidge talking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What talkies there \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">were\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> typically brought sound to big, national news stories. But the bridge opening in 1929 was a big deal for the Bay Area, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sound of Morse code being sent over a telegraph]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then-President Calvin Coolidge participated in the dedication by pressing a telegraph button in Washington, D.C., that directed the unfurling of an American flag from the bridge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[flag unfurling sound, crowd says “Ahhhh”]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then-San Francisco Mayor James Rolph, who was known to love attending celebrations of almost any kind, was the biggest local celebrity to show up in person. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">1929 Ford AA Truck engine starts up]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Not unlike the Golden Gate bridge to the north, this bridge helped farmers get their goods to market. In the 1920s, the region on both sides of the Bay was rural, as opposed to suburban, as it is today. Farms, orchards, canneries, salt harvesting… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And maybe because it wasn’t designed primarily for commuter traffic, I think it’s worth noting that the original bridge was only 30 feet wide with just two lanes, and about 7 miles long. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Looking at the new bridge, I mean, compared to the old bridge, this bridge is a monster. You know, this is like, 6 lanes. The original bridge would have been just two lanes, back and forth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in the field): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Petite, and also, I have to say, terrifying. Right? Two lanes, two lanes only, one going in one direction, one in the other. 30 feet wide, going over, over the Bay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[dramatic music swells ]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, it musta, I guess, you know, probably it was kind of fun, I guess. But yeah, probably a little horrifying. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in the field): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Especially if there’s a stiff wind? Picking up off the water?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in the field): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driving a Model T Ford? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Nobody was blown into the water, as far as I can tell. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fun fact: The original toll was 45 cents … about $8 in today’s money! So, Christian says, adjusted for inflation, it was more expensive to cross in 1929 than it is today! Takes the sting out of today’s $7 toll … Or maybe not…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anyways, it wasn’t long before newspaper articles were calling the old bridge “antique.” By 1954, 7,400 cars and trucks were crossing every day. Because the rural towns on either side of the Bay did become suburbs…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, it was a small bridge taking you to a small place, you know? And now it’s like, this massive, like, you know, city center to city center. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the biggest complaint about this bridge was not how slender it was, but the electric drawbridge that went up on average 6 times a day to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">let marine traffic pass underneath.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That brought cars and trucks on the bridge to a standstill. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So in 1961, the groundwork was laid for the construction of a wider, taller bridge, to be built just a few feet north of the original span. The old bridge was dismantled, piece by piece, except for the small bit you can still see from Bridgeview Park today. \u003c/span>According to the state’s Department of Transportation, by the way, the new bridge is still the longest bridge in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in the field): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So now that you know the full story, any thoughts?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathleen McKusick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really wish that the pier were open and I could walk out onto the bridge. That would be a dream come true.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That story was reported by KQED’s Rachael Myrow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I hope you’ll join me tonight, Thursday, Aug. 24 at Black Bird Books in San Francisco’s Outer Sunset. It’s the last stop on our tour for our new book, \u003cem>Bay Curious: Exploring Hidden True Stories of the San Francisco Bay Area\u003c/em>. I’ll be reading, signing, answering questions and playing a mini trivia game. Hope to see you there!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Be sure you’re s\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ubscribed to Bay Curious so you never miss a new episode. Follow me on Instagram @oallenprice. And sign up for our monthly newsletter at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/bay-curious\">BayCurious.org/Newsletter\u003c/a>.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is made by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, and me, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Olivia\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maha Sanad \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and Holly Kernan.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "California’s longest bridge is and was the link between San Mateo and Hayward. That is to say, the first bridge that opened in 1929, and the second bridge that opened in 1967.",
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"description": "California’s longest bridge is and was the link between San Mateo and Hayward. That is to say, the first bridge that opened in 1929, and the second bridge that opened in 1967.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode. \u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kathleen McKusick used to work in Foster City near Bridgeview Park which, as its name suggests, offers a fine view of the San Mateo-Hayward Bridge. One day, while riding bikes with her daughter along the nearby Bay Trail, she stumbled upon a remnant of the original 1929 San Mateo Bridge that once crossed over the San Francisco Bay. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Which raised all kinds of questions in my mind,” McKusick said. She wrote to Bay Curious looking to learn about the bridge. “I would love to know more about that original bridge in its heyday.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>McKusick Googled it, naturally, as did I, and there just isn’t a whole lot out there. The best resource?\u003ca href=\"https://www.haywardareahistory.org/hayward-san-mateo-bridge\"> A single article\u003c/a> written a few years ago for the Hayward Historical Society by John Christian, formerly an archivist there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Turns out this bridge was once the longest bridge in North America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/Bridges_2412527-e1692820851937.jpg\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11958901\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/Bridges_2412527-e1692820851937-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"Looking down an old section of a now unused bridge that runs off into the distance and terminates just before the horizon line. To the left of it is the new bridge that replaced it. Both bridges run over calm reflective blue water.\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/Bridges_2412527-e1692820851937-800x600.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/Bridges_2412527-e1692820851937-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/Bridges_2412527-e1692820851937-160x120.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/Bridges_2412527-e1692820851937-1536x1152.jpg 1536w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/Bridges_2412527-e1692820851937.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A little stub alongside the new San Mateo-Hayward Bridge is all that remains of the original from 1929.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The history of the bridge\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>We all met at the Bridgeview Park, where you can spy a little stub of the old bridge alongside the big new one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is the first time I’ve been over here. I guess I’m too Hayward-centric. I’ve never really seen it from this side, to be honest,” Christian said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Christian, the bridge was originally proposed in 1922 by the Oakland Chamber of Commerce, as a way to jump start business between the Peninsula and the East Bay. Construction began in December 1927. A little more than a year later, on March 2, 1929, there was a grand opening of what was then called the “San Francisco Bay Toll-Bridge.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The bridge opening in 1929 was a big deal for the Bay Area, and President Calvin Coolidge participated in the dedication by pressing a telegraph button in Washington, D.C. that directed the unfurling of an American flag from the bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco Mayor James Rolph, who was known to love attending celebrations of almost any kind, was the biggest local celebrity to show up in person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not unlike the Golden Gate Bridge to the north, this bridge helped farmers get their goods to market. In the 1920s, the region on both sides of the Bay was rural, as opposed to suburban, as it is today. Think farms, orchards, canneries, salt harvesting and the like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11958903\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/hsmb-truck-crossing-e1692821339637.jpg\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11958903\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/hsmb-truck-crossing-e1692821339637-800x586.jpg\" alt=\"Archival image of a 1920s-era transport truck carrying crates of ketchup. Two large American flags are mounted on poles near the front of the truck.\" width=\"800\" height=\"586\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/hsmb-truck-crossing-e1692821339637-800x586.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/hsmb-truck-crossing-e1692821339637-1020x747.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/hsmb-truck-crossing-e1692821339637-160x117.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/hsmb-truck-crossing-e1692821339637-1536x1126.jpg 1536w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/hsmb-truck-crossing-e1692821339637.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Hayward cannery truck crosses the bridge bringing Hayward ‘Quality Tomato Catsup’ to San Mateo as part of the 1929 dedication. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Hayward Area Historical Society)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And maybe because it wasn’t designed primarily for commuter traffic, the original bridge was only 30 feet wide with just two lanes, and about 7 miles long. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Looking at the new bridge, I mean, compared to the old bridge, this bridge is a monster. You know, this is like, 6 lanes. The original bridge would have been just two lanes, back and forth,” Christian said. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Petite, and also, I have to say, terrifying. Right? Especially if there’s a stiff wind? Picking up off the water? Driving a Model T Ford? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Nobody was blown into the water, as far as I can tell,” Christian said. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fun fact: The original toll was 45 cents, about $8 in today’s money! So, Christian says, adjusted for inflation, it was more expensive to cross in 1929 than it is today. Takes the sting out of today’s $7 toll? Or maybe not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11958902\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/California_-_San_Francisco_-_NARA_-_23935735-scaled-e1692820873825.jpg\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11958902\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/California_-_San_Francisco_-_NARA_-_23935735-scaled-e1692820873825-800x620.jpg\" alt=\"A black and white archival aerial photo of the middle section of a long bridge passing over the San Francisco Bay.\" width=\"800\" height=\"620\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/California_-_San_Francisco_-_NARA_-_23935735-scaled-e1692820873825-800x620.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/California_-_San_Francisco_-_NARA_-_23935735-scaled-e1692820873825-1020x790.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/California_-_San_Francisco_-_NARA_-_23935735-scaled-e1692820873825-160x124.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/California_-_San_Francisco_-_NARA_-_23935735-scaled-e1692820873825-1536x1190.jpg 1536w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/California_-_San_Francisco_-_NARA_-_23935735-scaled-e1692820873825.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The cause of commuter traffic on what was then the San Francisco Bay Toll-Bridge when the Model T was king. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the U.S. National Archives and Records Administration)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Dreams of a bigger bridge\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By 1954, 7,400 cars and trucks were crossing every day and newspapers were calling the old bridge an “antique.” The rural towns on either side of the Bay had become suburbs, and the bridge wasn’t designed to carry that kind of capacity.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“It was a small bridge taking you to a small place. And now it’s this massive [bridge taking you from] city center to city center,” said Christian.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As time went on, the biggest complaint about this bridge was not how slender it was, but the electric drawbridge that went up on average 6 times a day to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">let marine traffic pass underneath.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That brought cars and trucks on the bridge to a standstill. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So in 1961, the groundwork was laid for the construction of a wider, taller bridge, to be built just a few feet north of the original span. The old bridge was dismantled, piece by piece, except for the small bit you can still see from Bridgeview Park today. And while there are now longer bridges in North America, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">according to the state’s \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://dot.ca.gov/-/media/dot-media/programs/research-innovation-system-information/documents/final-reports/ca18-2997-finalreport.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Department of Transportation (PDF)\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, the new bridge is still the longest bridge in California. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">McKusick’s thoughts on learning the full story? “I really wish that the pier were open and I could walk out onto the bridge. That would be a dream come true.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey everyone! You’re listening to the Bay Curious podcast, where we explore the Bay Area one question at a time. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did you know that the Bay Area was once home to the longest bridge in North America? And also one of the skinniest?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">original\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> bridge that ran between San Mateo and Hayward, or Hayward and San Mateo, depending on which side of the Bay you sit on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kathleen McKusick of Redwood City used to work in biotech near Bridgeview Park in Foster City. Which is how she came to ask us this question: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathleen McKusick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I stumbled across a remnant of the 1929 San Mateo Bridge about a dozen years ago. I would love to know more about that original bridge in its heyday. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have a lot of spectacular bridges here in the Bay Area. But let’s be honest, the San Mateo-Hayward bridge doesn’t get a ton of love. Today we’re putting her in the spotlight, and learning more about the original bridge that helped shape our region. We’ll be right back!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This week, we’re answering a question from Kathleen, that was selected by you, our audience, in a monthly voting round. If you want a say in what we cover, vote in our current poll at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious/\">Bay Curious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, so Kathleen wants to know the story behind what remains of what was then called the “San Francisco Bay Toll-Bridge” … We sent KQED’s Rachael Myrow to check it out …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sounds of a park outdoors, highway traffic can be heard in the background]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you’ve walked or cycled along the Bay Trail on the Peninsula, you know it passes under the San Mateo-Hayward Bridge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathleen McKusick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My daughter and I were here on the weekend to ride bikes on the Bay Trail, and we went on the bikes a little farther than I usually went on foot, and here was this astonishing little piece of a bridge. Which raised all kinds of questions in my mind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kathleen McKusick Googled it, naturally, as did I\u003c/span> \u003cb>…\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and … there just isn’t a whole lot out there … The best resource? ONE article written a few years ago for the Hayward Historical Society… an article written by THIS guy:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> John Christian, formerly an archivist at the Hayward Historical Society.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We all met at the Bridgeview Park, where you can spy a little stub of the old bridge alongside the big new one. It’s a noisy park. You can hear the traffic from the new bridge, not to mention planes flying overhead from SFO.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the first time I’ve been over here. I guess I’m too Hayward-centric. But yeah, I’ve never really seen it from this side, to be honest.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to Christian, the Hayward-San Mateo Bridge was originally proposed in 1922, by \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the Oakland Chamber of Commerce\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, as a way to jump start commerce between the Peninsula and the East Bay. Construction began in December of 1927. Flash forward to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">March 2, 1929, and we have …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Old timey music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The grand opening of what was then called the \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">San Francisco Bay Toll-Bridge\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">! Now, quick production note. Nineteen-twenty-nine is a tricky time for sound reporters in the Bay. Much of the news footage from that era was still silent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Archival recording of Calvin Coolidge talking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What talkies there \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">were\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> typically brought sound to big, national news stories. But the bridge opening in 1929 was a big deal for the Bay Area, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sound of Morse code being sent over a telegraph]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then-President Calvin Coolidge participated in the dedication by pressing a telegraph button in Washington, D.C., that directed the unfurling of an American flag from the bridge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[flag unfurling sound, crowd says “Ahhhh”]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then-San Francisco Mayor James Rolph, who was known to love attending celebrations of almost any kind, was the biggest local celebrity to show up in person. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">1929 Ford AA Truck engine starts up]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Not unlike the Golden Gate bridge to the north, this bridge helped farmers get their goods to market. In the 1920s, the region on both sides of the Bay was rural, as opposed to suburban, as it is today. Farms, orchards, canneries, salt harvesting… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And maybe because it wasn’t designed primarily for commuter traffic, I think it’s worth noting that the original bridge was only 30 feet wide with just two lanes, and about 7 miles long. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Looking at the new bridge, I mean, compared to the old bridge, this bridge is a monster. You know, this is like, 6 lanes. The original bridge would have been just two lanes, back and forth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in the field): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Petite, and also, I have to say, terrifying. Right? Two lanes, two lanes only, one going in one direction, one in the other. 30 feet wide, going over, over the Bay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[dramatic music swells ]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, it musta, I guess, you know, probably it was kind of fun, I guess. But yeah, probably a little horrifying. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in the field): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Especially if there’s a stiff wind? Picking up off the water?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in the field): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driving a Model T Ford? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Nobody was blown into the water, as far as I can tell. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fun fact: The original toll was 45 cents … about $8 in today’s money! So, Christian says, adjusted for inflation, it was more expensive to cross in 1929 than it is today! Takes the sting out of today’s $7 toll … Or maybe not…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anyways, it wasn’t long before newspaper articles were calling the old bridge “antique.” By 1954, 7,400 cars and trucks were crossing every day. Because the rural towns on either side of the Bay did become suburbs…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Christian:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, it was a small bridge taking you to a small place, you know? And now it’s like, this massive, like, you know, city center to city center. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the biggest complaint about this bridge was not how slender it was, but the electric drawbridge that went up on average 6 times a day to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">let marine traffic pass underneath.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That brought cars and trucks on the bridge to a standstill. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So in 1961, the groundwork was laid for the construction of a wider, taller bridge, to be built just a few feet north of the original span. The old bridge was dismantled, piece by piece, except for the small bit you can still see from Bridgeview Park today. \u003c/span>According to the state’s Department of Transportation, by the way, the new bridge is still the longest bridge in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in the field): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So now that you know the full story, any thoughts?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathleen McKusick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really wish that the pier were open and I could walk out onto the bridge. That would be a dream come true.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That story was reported by KQED’s Rachael Myrow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I hope you’ll join me tonight, Thursday, Aug. 24 at Black Bird Books in San Francisco’s Outer Sunset. It’s the last stop on our tour for our new book, \u003cem>Bay Curious: Exploring Hidden True Stories of the San Francisco Bay Area\u003c/em>. I’ll be reading, signing, answering questions and playing a mini trivia game. Hope to see you there!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Be sure you’re s\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ubscribed to Bay Curious so you never miss a new episode. Follow me on Instagram @oallenprice. And sign up for our monthly newsletter at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/bay-curious\">BayCurious.org/Newsletter\u003c/a>.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is made by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, and me, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Olivia\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maha Sanad \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and Holly Kernan.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Why San Francisco's Fillmore District Is No Longer the 'Harlem of the West'",
"headTitle": "Why San Francisco’s Fillmore District Is No Longer the ‘Harlem of the West’ | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you were walking down San Francisco’s Fillmore Street in the 1950s, chances are you might run into Billie Holiday stepping out of a restaurant. Or Ella Fitzgerald trying on hats. Or Thelonious Monk smoking a cigarette. This wouldn’t be out of the ordinary in the “\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11825401/how-urban-renewal-decimated-the-fillmore-district-and-took-jazz-with-it\">Harlem of the West\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode originally aired in 2020, reporter Bianca Taylor explores the rise of the Fillmore as a cultural center for jazz, and the “urban renewal” that ultimately changed the identity of the neighborhood, and forced out many of its residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Hey everyone, this is Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious. The show that answers your questions about the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today we’re going to start the episode by venturing back in time, and into the night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s the 1950s … and while most folks around the Bay Area have tucked themselves in by midnight, all cozy in their warms beds, things in San Francisco’s Fillmore District are just heating up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[\u003cem>Distant jazz music wafts in, as if you’re hearing it from outside on the street\u003c/em>]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Jazz is on special here every night of the week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Take a stroll down Fillmore Street and you might run into Billie Holiday stepping out of a restaurant … or Thelonious Monk smoking a cigarette.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The music of Dizzy Gillespie bleeds through the door of a music venue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[\u003cem>Door opens, music gets much louder, like we’re in a club]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Step inside and you’re front and center for why this neighborhood got the moniker “Harlem of the West.” In the 1940s and ’50s, the Fillmore was THE spot on the West Coast to see the jazz greats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Until … it wasn’t.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[\u003cem>Construction noises\u003c/em>]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Today on the show — how the Fillmore become a national hotspot for jazz, and how city planners dismantled it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This story was inspired by a winning question from a public voting round on BayCurious.org. It first aired in 2020. But we’re bringing it back today because this story is featured in our newly released book, “Bay Curious: Exploring the Hidden True Stories of the San Francisco Bay Area,” which, I’ll just mention, is available at a local bookstore near you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll turn up the music, right after this…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We’re delving into how a small neighborhood in San Francisco became an epicenter for jazz. Reporter Bianca Taylor brings us the story…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor:\u003c/strong> Like so much of San Francisco history, the story of the Fillmore can be traced back to the day the city shook.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Early 1900-music]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elizabeth Pepin Silva:\u003c/strong> After the earthquake, pretty much all of San Francisco all relocated to the Fillmore simply because it was the closest place to downtown that survived relatively intact the earthquake and subsequent fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor:\u003c/strong> Elizabeth Pepin Silva is a filmmaker and co-author of the book, \u003cem>Harlem of the West\u003c/em>. She grew up in San Francisco. When she was a teenager, she got a job working for music promotor Bill Graham at the Fillmore Auditorium. It’s how she first started digging into the history of the neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elizabeth Pepin Silva:\u003c/strong> Once downtown was rebuilt, the local Fillmore Neighborhood’s merchants association were trying to figure out a way to keep people coming back to the neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor:\u003c/strong> It was decided that the Fillmore would be San Francisco’s entertainment center. In 1909, an amusement park called the Fillmore Chutes was built, complete with a wooden roller coaster and Ferris wheel, and three years later, the Fillmore Auditorium.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elizabeth Pepin Silva: \u003c/strong>You know, there were beer halls. It was a really fun, exciting place. It was a place to go have fun. But it was mainly for white people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor:\u003c/strong> Yes, San Francisco was segregated, but in the Fillmore it was a little bit different. The earthquake had damaged a lot of neighborhoods where people of color were “allowed” to live in the city, but the surviving Fillmore district had inexpensive real estate and a history of accepting immigrants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So through the early 1900s up until the 1940s, you had Filipinos, Mexicans, African Americans, Russians, Japanese Americans and Jewish people living next door to one another.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elizabeth Pepin Silva: \u003c/strong>And it really became known as one of the most integrated neighborhoods west of the Mississippi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival Newsreel:\u003c/strong> “On December 7th, 1941 Japan, like its infamous axis partners, struck first and declared war afterwards.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>Then, Pearl Harbor was bombed. And the country changed completely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elizabeth Pepin Silva: \u003c/strong>Japanese Americans are forced into concentration camps and it left this huge hole in the Fillmore district.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>At the same time there was a push to recruit African Americans from the Midwest to work the shipyards in San Francisco and Richmond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elizabeth Pepin Silva: \u003c/strong>And they were given a free train ticket and promise of a job and they were like, “come on out we need you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>African Americans arriving in San Francisco moved into empty apartments the JapanesecAmericans had been forced out of. Between 1940 and 1950, the Black population of San Francisco grew tenfold. By 1945, some 30,000 African Americans were living in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With this surge in population came an explosion in the Fillmore of Black-owned businesses, nightclubs, restaurants, and bars like…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Terry Hilliard:\u003c/strong> Circle Star\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Mary Stallings:\u003c/strong> I hung out at Bop City\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Terry Hilliard:\u003c/strong> Like Jack’s on Sutter\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Mary Stallings: \u003c/strong>The Blue Mirror\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Terry Hilliard:\u003c/strong> Booker T. Washington Hotel\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>And you could go out on Friday night and not come home till Sunday night because there is so much to do. And so that’s how Fillmore became Harlem of the West.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music: “Soul Sauce,” Cal Tjader with Terry Hilliard]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Terry Hilliard:\u003c/strong> So, you know, when you play in the city, it just feels so wonderful that you have an audience of that caliber who enjoy your music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>Terry Hilliard, who we’re hearing on this track by Cal Tjader, is a bass player who started playing in the Fillmore district when he was a student at SF State.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Terry Hilliard:\u003c/strong> We had great crowds. People really dressed up nice. The places were very elegant. There’s just a lot of joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>The Fillmore was one of the few places where, as a Black man, Terry could play a venue and enter through the front door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Terry Hilliard: \u003c/strong>When we played the private party, we’d have to come in through the loading dock. We’d play the show and then we come back down through the kitchen. Didn’t feel that at the Fillmore. At the Fillmore, they were Black clubs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music: “Sunday Kind of Love,” Mary Stallings]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>Jazz singer Mary Stallings, who we’re hearing here, was born in the Fillmore District in 1939.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Stallings:\u003c/strong> My family came from the Midwest. I was the first born in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>She started singing gospel in her neighborhood church when she was 8 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Stallings:\u003c/strong> Growing up in that area, walking to church in the morning you cross that Fillmore area. It was just music … god, music everywhere. It was just an amazing experience and feeling, and I knew that I was living something very special.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music: “What a Difference a Day Makes,” Dinah Washington]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>When she was older, Mary worked at jazz clubs where she got to see her idols perform when they came through town, like Dinah Washington.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Stallings:\u003c/strong> When I was a kid, I used to imitate Billy Eckstine. I used to imitate Dinah Washington. I used to imitate Billie Holiday. And it’s amazing. I worked with all these people and knew these people personally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>But Mary and Terry both say it wasn’t just the music that made the Fillmore special.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Stallings: \u003c/strong>You know, you felt like you were cared for. You know, you had a home life, but everybody else was your family, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Terry Hilliard: \u003c/strong>The reason it was so different was because of the culture. It had a culture that was a place where talent could be developed, whether it be music, art, dancing or whatever. It was there. It was a place where you could express yourself and be accepted by others and you had an audience. I just don’t see that today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>Why don’t you see that today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After World War II, President Truman signed the 1949 Housing Act, which authorized the demolition and reconstruction of urban neighborhoods that were considered slums. This policy of “redevelopment” specifically targeted neighborhoods that were low-income and not-white. So in the 1960s, with its old Victorian houses and mostly Black population, the Fillmore became the focus of San Francisco’s “urban renewal.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jazz clubs were shuttered. Businesses torn down. Geary Street turned into the massive four-lane Geary Boulevard, slicing through the heart of the neighborhood. Residents were forced out of their homes, often without much warning or adequate compensation. To city planners, this was urban renewal, but to the residents of the Fillmore, it felt like something else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Archival Tape] \u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Man 1:\u003c/strong> And then this is part of redevelopment also.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>James Baldwin: \u003c/strong>What do you mean? Redevelopment meaning what?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Man 1:\u003c/strong> Meaning removal of negroes.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>James Baldwin: \u003c/strong>That’s what I thought you meant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>That’s writer James Baldwin. In 1963, he came to San Francisco to interview Black residents for a documentary produced by KQED. In the film called \u003cem>Take This Hammer\u003c/em>, Baldwin points out that even though San Francisco thinks of itself as a progressive city, its policies — like those of redevelopment — made it no different from Birmingham, Alabama.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Archival Tape] \u003c/em>\u003cstrong>James Baldwin:\u003c/strong> I imagine it’d be easy for any white person walking through San Francisco to imagine everything was at peace. Cuz it certainly looks that way on the surface. San Francisco’s much prettier than New York. And it’s easier to hide in San Francisco than in New York. You’ve got the view, you’ve got the hills. You’ve got the San Francisco legend too which is that it’s cosmopolitan and forward-looking. But it’s just another American city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>The redevelopment of the Fillmore was one of the largest projects of urban renewal on the West Coast. It impacted nearly 20,000 people. And by the time new housing and storefronts were finally completed in the 1980s, most of the former Fillmore residents couldn’t afford to move back in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the U.S. census, in the 1970s 10% of San Francisco’s population identified as Black. Today, that number is half.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mary Stallings still lives in San Francisco but says going back to the Fillmore now breaks her heart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Stallings:\u003c/strong> I was trying to explain that in another interview and I didn’t get very far because I cried like a baby. Because I missed — I missed the community feeling, the feeling of family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>Terry Hilliard lives in Oakland now. He kept playing music in the Bay Area, but says all the musicians he played with back then left and went to New York. They couldn’t afford to live here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Terry Hilliard:\u003c/strong> The only ones, the musicians who stay here, were those who had jobs like me. I ended up being a computer programmer and others worked at other jobs. Then we just played as often as we could together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>Jazz in the Fillmore isn’t entirely dead. You can catch a live jazz show six days a week at the Boom Boom Room on Fillmore and Geary. The free, two-day Fillmore Jazz Festival draws big performers each summer. But is it still the Harlem of the West? Elizabeth Pepin Silva says…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elizabeth Pepin Silva:\u003c/strong> Oh, absolutely not. No way. No.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sad jazz start.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>Cities change. It’s easy to romanticize the past… But listening to Mary talk about her childhood in the Fillmore, she keeps using this word:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Stallings:\u003c/strong> It was just so magical as I look back, it was just \u003cem>magic\u003c/em>. You know, I use that terminology when things just can’t explain it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music: “Sunday Kind of Love,” Mary Stallings]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Jazz singer Mary Stallings. That story was reported by Bianca Taylor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A written version of this story is one of the 49 included in our newly released book: \u003cem>Bay Curious: Exploring the Hidden True Stories of the San Francisco Bay Area\u003c/em>. Be sure to check it out to learn more fascinating things, like: How Mountain Bikes first got rolling in Marin or how a once-popular island became a ghost town in the middle of San Francisco Bay. You can find details at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/baycuriousbook\">KQED.org/baycuriousbook\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ve also got a book event coming up on Thursday, Aug. 24 at Black Bird Bookstore in San Francisco’s Outer Sunset. Come by to hear me tell some stories! We’ll also play a little mini trivia game, have some audience Q&A, and I’ll be signing books. The event is free and starts at 7 p.m. This is our last event on the calendar for a while, so I hope to see you there!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today’s episode was produced by Katrina Schwartz and Asal Ehsanipour. Audio engineering was by Rob Speight and Christopher Beale. The Bay Curious team also includes Amanda Font. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana and Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003cbr>\nI’m your host and senior editor, Olivia Allen-Price. Stay curious and have a wonderful week.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you were walking down San Francisco’s Fillmore Street in the 1950s, chances are you might run into Billie Holiday stepping out of a restaurant. Or Ella Fitzgerald trying on hats. Or Thelonious Monk smoking a cigarette. This wouldn’t be out of the ordinary in the “\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11825401/how-urban-renewal-decimated-the-fillmore-district-and-took-jazz-with-it\">Harlem of the West\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode originally aired in 2020, reporter Bianca Taylor explores the rise of the Fillmore as a cultural center for jazz, and the “urban renewal” that ultimately changed the identity of the neighborhood, and forced out many of its residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Hey everyone, this is Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious. The show that answers your questions about the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today we’re going to start the episode by venturing back in time, and into the night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s the 1950s … and while most folks around the Bay Area have tucked themselves in by midnight, all cozy in their warms beds, things in San Francisco’s Fillmore District are just heating up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[\u003cem>Distant jazz music wafts in, as if you’re hearing it from outside on the street\u003c/em>]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Jazz is on special here every night of the week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Take a stroll down Fillmore Street and you might run into Billie Holiday stepping out of a restaurant … or Thelonious Monk smoking a cigarette.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The music of Dizzy Gillespie bleeds through the door of a music venue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[\u003cem>Door opens, music gets much louder, like we’re in a club]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Step inside and you’re front and center for why this neighborhood got the moniker “Harlem of the West.” In the 1940s and ’50s, the Fillmore was THE spot on the West Coast to see the jazz greats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Until … it wasn’t.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[\u003cem>Construction noises\u003c/em>]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Today on the show — how the Fillmore become a national hotspot for jazz, and how city planners dismantled it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This story was inspired by a winning question from a public voting round on BayCurious.org. It first aired in 2020. But we’re bringing it back today because this story is featured in our newly released book, “Bay Curious: Exploring the Hidden True Stories of the San Francisco Bay Area,” which, I’ll just mention, is available at a local bookstore near you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll turn up the music, right after this…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We’re delving into how a small neighborhood in San Francisco became an epicenter for jazz. Reporter Bianca Taylor brings us the story…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor:\u003c/strong> Like so much of San Francisco history, the story of the Fillmore can be traced back to the day the city shook.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Early 1900-music]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elizabeth Pepin Silva:\u003c/strong> After the earthquake, pretty much all of San Francisco all relocated to the Fillmore simply because it was the closest place to downtown that survived relatively intact the earthquake and subsequent fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor:\u003c/strong> Elizabeth Pepin Silva is a filmmaker and co-author of the book, \u003cem>Harlem of the West\u003c/em>. She grew up in San Francisco. When she was a teenager, she got a job working for music promotor Bill Graham at the Fillmore Auditorium. It’s how she first started digging into the history of the neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elizabeth Pepin Silva:\u003c/strong> Once downtown was rebuilt, the local Fillmore Neighborhood’s merchants association were trying to figure out a way to keep people coming back to the neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor:\u003c/strong> It was decided that the Fillmore would be San Francisco’s entertainment center. In 1909, an amusement park called the Fillmore Chutes was built, complete with a wooden roller coaster and Ferris wheel, and three years later, the Fillmore Auditorium.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elizabeth Pepin Silva: \u003c/strong>You know, there were beer halls. It was a really fun, exciting place. It was a place to go have fun. But it was mainly for white people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor:\u003c/strong> Yes, San Francisco was segregated, but in the Fillmore it was a little bit different. The earthquake had damaged a lot of neighborhoods where people of color were “allowed” to live in the city, but the surviving Fillmore district had inexpensive real estate and a history of accepting immigrants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So through the early 1900s up until the 1940s, you had Filipinos, Mexicans, African Americans, Russians, Japanese Americans and Jewish people living next door to one another.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elizabeth Pepin Silva: \u003c/strong>And it really became known as one of the most integrated neighborhoods west of the Mississippi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival Newsreel:\u003c/strong> “On December 7th, 1941 Japan, like its infamous axis partners, struck first and declared war afterwards.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>Then, Pearl Harbor was bombed. And the country changed completely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elizabeth Pepin Silva: \u003c/strong>Japanese Americans are forced into concentration camps and it left this huge hole in the Fillmore district.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>At the same time there was a push to recruit African Americans from the Midwest to work the shipyards in San Francisco and Richmond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elizabeth Pepin Silva: \u003c/strong>And they were given a free train ticket and promise of a job and they were like, “come on out we need you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>African Americans arriving in San Francisco moved into empty apartments the JapanesecAmericans had been forced out of. Between 1940 and 1950, the Black population of San Francisco grew tenfold. By 1945, some 30,000 African Americans were living in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With this surge in population came an explosion in the Fillmore of Black-owned businesses, nightclubs, restaurants, and bars like…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Terry Hilliard:\u003c/strong> Circle Star\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Mary Stallings:\u003c/strong> I hung out at Bop City\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Terry Hilliard:\u003c/strong> Like Jack’s on Sutter\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Mary Stallings: \u003c/strong>The Blue Mirror\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Terry Hilliard:\u003c/strong> Booker T. Washington Hotel\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>And you could go out on Friday night and not come home till Sunday night because there is so much to do. And so that’s how Fillmore became Harlem of the West.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music: “Soul Sauce,” Cal Tjader with Terry Hilliard]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Terry Hilliard:\u003c/strong> So, you know, when you play in the city, it just feels so wonderful that you have an audience of that caliber who enjoy your music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>Terry Hilliard, who we’re hearing on this track by Cal Tjader, is a bass player who started playing in the Fillmore district when he was a student at SF State.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Terry Hilliard:\u003c/strong> We had great crowds. People really dressed up nice. The places were very elegant. There’s just a lot of joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>The Fillmore was one of the few places where, as a Black man, Terry could play a venue and enter through the front door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Terry Hilliard: \u003c/strong>When we played the private party, we’d have to come in through the loading dock. We’d play the show and then we come back down through the kitchen. Didn’t feel that at the Fillmore. At the Fillmore, they were Black clubs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music: “Sunday Kind of Love,” Mary Stallings]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>Jazz singer Mary Stallings, who we’re hearing here, was born in the Fillmore District in 1939.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Stallings:\u003c/strong> My family came from the Midwest. I was the first born in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>She started singing gospel in her neighborhood church when she was 8 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Stallings:\u003c/strong> Growing up in that area, walking to church in the morning you cross that Fillmore area. It was just music … god, music everywhere. It was just an amazing experience and feeling, and I knew that I was living something very special.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music: “What a Difference a Day Makes,” Dinah Washington]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>When she was older, Mary worked at jazz clubs where she got to see her idols perform when they came through town, like Dinah Washington.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Stallings:\u003c/strong> When I was a kid, I used to imitate Billy Eckstine. I used to imitate Dinah Washington. I used to imitate Billie Holiday. And it’s amazing. I worked with all these people and knew these people personally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>But Mary and Terry both say it wasn’t just the music that made the Fillmore special.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Stallings: \u003c/strong>You know, you felt like you were cared for. You know, you had a home life, but everybody else was your family, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Terry Hilliard: \u003c/strong>The reason it was so different was because of the culture. It had a culture that was a place where talent could be developed, whether it be music, art, dancing or whatever. It was there. It was a place where you could express yourself and be accepted by others and you had an audience. I just don’t see that today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>Why don’t you see that today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After World War II, President Truman signed the 1949 Housing Act, which authorized the demolition and reconstruction of urban neighborhoods that were considered slums. This policy of “redevelopment” specifically targeted neighborhoods that were low-income and not-white. So in the 1960s, with its old Victorian houses and mostly Black population, the Fillmore became the focus of San Francisco’s “urban renewal.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jazz clubs were shuttered. Businesses torn down. Geary Street turned into the massive four-lane Geary Boulevard, slicing through the heart of the neighborhood. Residents were forced out of their homes, often without much warning or adequate compensation. To city planners, this was urban renewal, but to the residents of the Fillmore, it felt like something else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Archival Tape] \u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Man 1:\u003c/strong> And then this is part of redevelopment also.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>James Baldwin: \u003c/strong>What do you mean? Redevelopment meaning what?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Man 1:\u003c/strong> Meaning removal of negroes.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>James Baldwin: \u003c/strong>That’s what I thought you meant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>That’s writer James Baldwin. In 1963, he came to San Francisco to interview Black residents for a documentary produced by KQED. In the film called \u003cem>Take This Hammer\u003c/em>, Baldwin points out that even though San Francisco thinks of itself as a progressive city, its policies — like those of redevelopment — made it no different from Birmingham, Alabama.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Archival Tape] \u003c/em>\u003cstrong>James Baldwin:\u003c/strong> I imagine it’d be easy for any white person walking through San Francisco to imagine everything was at peace. Cuz it certainly looks that way on the surface. San Francisco’s much prettier than New York. And it’s easier to hide in San Francisco than in New York. You’ve got the view, you’ve got the hills. You’ve got the San Francisco legend too which is that it’s cosmopolitan and forward-looking. But it’s just another American city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>The redevelopment of the Fillmore was one of the largest projects of urban renewal on the West Coast. It impacted nearly 20,000 people. And by the time new housing and storefronts were finally completed in the 1980s, most of the former Fillmore residents couldn’t afford to move back in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the U.S. census, in the 1970s 10% of San Francisco’s population identified as Black. Today, that number is half.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mary Stallings still lives in San Francisco but says going back to the Fillmore now breaks her heart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Stallings:\u003c/strong> I was trying to explain that in another interview and I didn’t get very far because I cried like a baby. Because I missed — I missed the community feeling, the feeling of family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>Terry Hilliard lives in Oakland now. He kept playing music in the Bay Area, but says all the musicians he played with back then left and went to New York. They couldn’t afford to live here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Terry Hilliard:\u003c/strong> The only ones, the musicians who stay here, were those who had jobs like me. I ended up being a computer programmer and others worked at other jobs. Then we just played as often as we could together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>Jazz in the Fillmore isn’t entirely dead. You can catch a live jazz show six days a week at the Boom Boom Room on Fillmore and Geary. The free, two-day Fillmore Jazz Festival draws big performers each summer. But is it still the Harlem of the West? Elizabeth Pepin Silva says…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elizabeth Pepin Silva:\u003c/strong> Oh, absolutely not. No way. No.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sad jazz start.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bianca Taylor: \u003c/strong>Cities change. It’s easy to romanticize the past… But listening to Mary talk about her childhood in the Fillmore, she keeps using this word:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Stallings:\u003c/strong> It was just so magical as I look back, it was just \u003cem>magic\u003c/em>. You know, I use that terminology when things just can’t explain it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music: “Sunday Kind of Love,” Mary Stallings]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Jazz singer Mary Stallings. That story was reported by Bianca Taylor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A written version of this story is one of the 49 included in our newly released book: \u003cem>Bay Curious: Exploring the Hidden True Stories of the San Francisco Bay Area\u003c/em>. Be sure to check it out to learn more fascinating things, like: How Mountain Bikes first got rolling in Marin or how a once-popular island became a ghost town in the middle of San Francisco Bay. You can find details at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/baycuriousbook\">KQED.org/baycuriousbook\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ve also got a book event coming up on Thursday, Aug. 24 at Black Bird Bookstore in San Francisco’s Outer Sunset. Come by to hear me tell some stories! We’ll also play a little mini trivia game, have some audience Q&A, and I’ll be signing books. The event is free and starts at 7 p.m. This is our last event on the calendar for a while, so I hope to see you there!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today’s episode was produced by Katrina Schwartz and Asal Ehsanipour. Audio engineering was by Rob Speight and Christopher Beale. The Bay Curious team also includes Amanda Font. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana and Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003cbr>\nI’m your host and senior editor, Olivia Allen-Price. Stay curious and have a wonderful week.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Waves have been on the mind of Alex Kwok, a Bay Curious listener who grew up in Fremont. When it comes to green energy, he’s seen a lot of solar and wind energy projects here in California. But he says the ocean seems particularly promising because of its consistency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The ocean is always there. The tides are always going in and out,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That made Kwok wonder: “Why is there no talk about tidal power? Are there no companies testing any kind of tidal power technology here?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The grand idea makes some waves\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Turns out, there has been talk of tapping into tidal and wave energy among San Franciscans for more than a century. In 1868, there was even a failed attempt at \u003ca href=\"https://www.outsidelands.org/wave-tidal.php\">creating a wave-powered boat\u003c/a> that was covered by \u003cem>The New York Times\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But for the kind of ocean energy Alex is asking about, let’s look back to the early 2000s, when San Francisco city leaders\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna3339905\"> had a grand idea\u003c/a>. Following what they’d seen done elsewhere, they thought a device, like a windmill, could be placed under the Golden Gate Bridge, its blades turned by the water to generate power. Then-Mayor Gavin Newsom boasted about this when he was running for governor in 2009.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Think about the mouth of the Golden Gate, the Bay, it’s relatively small, you’ve got this great energy that comes in and out, 24/7, all of that energy being wasted!” he said at the time. “You’ve got the opportunity to do what’s been done in other countries, and that’s harness that energy flow.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11957196\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/RS18710_GettyImages-56494642-qut.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11957196\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/RS18710_GettyImages-56494642-qut-800x531.jpg\" alt=\"Two people jog along a cement walkway that borders San Francisco Bay on a stormy day. Large waves are crashing over the edge of the walkway. The Golden Gate Bridge is visible in the background.\" width=\"800\" height=\"531\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/RS18710_GettyImages-56494642-qut-800x531.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/RS18710_GettyImages-56494642-qut-1020x677.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/RS18710_GettyImages-56494642-qut-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/RS18710_GettyImages-56494642-qut-1536x1019.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/RS18710_GettyImages-56494642-qut.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Two runners watch as waves crash against the rocks at Fort Point near the Golden Gate Bridge Dec. 28, 2005 in San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Justin Sullivan/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But there were some problems. The San Francisco Environment Department had looked into a tidal project for the Bay in 2008, but a technical consultant determined the project was not commercially feasible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Tidal power is a peaky resource — only generating during high tides. The consultant also found tidal power to be very expensive — especially as compared to other types of renewable energy,” the San Francisco Environment Department wrote to KQED. “To make in-stream tidal power feasible, the cost of technology and its installation must decline significantly.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A study paid for by the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission found that the turbines would cost as much as $15 million each, and $750,000 a year to maintain. They could be less productive than promised, and there were also environmental concerns. Even Newsom was clued into those.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If you have plankton coming in, seals and sea lions … who knows what else, getting sucked up and consumed,” Newsom said. “We’re working on all those issues.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Plus, salt is tough stuff, and creating devices meant to last underwater is really hard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The project was dead in the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The tides begin to turn\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“Technology wasn’t ready, but the planning really was,” said Daniel M. Kammen, a professor of energy at UC Berkeley. He also serves in the Biden-Harris Administration as the senior advisor for energy innovation at the United States Agency for International Development.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kammen said the focus on clean energy for the past two decades has been on solar and wind, but now technology for the ocean is catching up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California is aiming to be \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2018/09/10/646373423/california-sets-goal-of-100-percent-renewable-electric-power-by-2045\">powered 100% by clean energy by 2045\u003c/a>, but there’s still a long way to go. The state was at 37% in 2021, mainly coming from wind and solar. Tapping into ocean energy could help chip away at the difference.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s not going to be a massive part of our energy. But it might be a really well-tailored technology to places that are already thinking about clean energy and have a port, a dock, and a whole variety of water hardware already,” Kammen said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ocean energy overall is \u003ca href=\"https://unfccc.int/blog/wave-of-the-future\">more predictable and reliable than wind\u003c/a>. Water is roughly \u003ca href=\"https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960148123009771\">830 times denser than air,\u003c/a> and moving water packs colossal energy. And about half of the world’s population lives within 124 miles of a coastline, according to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.prb.org/resources/ripple-effects-population-and-coastal-regions/#:~:text=Today%2C%20approximately%203%20billion%20people,200%20kilometers%20of%20a%20coastline.\">Population Reference Bureau\u003c/a>. Now, wave energy and tidal energy are different, though both have some upsides.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_tides/tides05_lunarday.html#:~:text=Since%20the%20Earth%20rotates%20through,24%20hours%20and%2050%20minutes.\">Tides\u003c/a> are a twice-a-day cycle, driven by the rise and fall of the sea \u003ca href=\"https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_tides/tides02_cause.html\">caused by the gravitational attraction\u003c/a> of the sun and moon on the oceans of the earth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/facts/waves.html\">Waves\u003c/a> are caused by energy passing through the water, which causes the water to move in a circular motion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kammen and others advocating for this industry are optimistic because of new innovations that aim to reduce costs, and increasing government support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The U.S. Department of Energy is \u003ca href=\"https://today.oregonstate.edu/news/dept-energy-awards-25-million-wave-energy-technology-testing-oregon-state-facility#:~:text=Dept.-,of%20Energy%20awards%20%2425%20million%20for%20wave,testing%20at%20Oregon%20State%20facility&text=CORVALLIS%2C%20Ore.,central%20Oregon%20coast%20near%20Newport.\">allocating $25 million\u003c/a> to help support a new wave-energy testing site located a few miles from the deepwater port of Newport, Oregon. The Biden Administration has \u003ca href=\"https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Ocean-Climate-Action-Plan_Final.pdf\">set a goal (PDF)\u003c/a> to “responsibly advance” the commercialization of marine energy technologies that convert energy from waves, tides, currents, and other ocean sources. And, a California state bill, \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202320240SB605\">SB 605\u003c/a>, could direct state agencies to study the feasibility and potential for wave and tidal energy development in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>CalWave enters the race\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>An Oakland-based company, CalWave Power Technologies, is one of several companies racing to turn waves into electricity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Beginning in 2021, a little over a quarter mile off a pier operated by the University of San Diego, a 16-foot-wide, blue octagon-shaped device called xWave was submerged underwater, and tethered to the ocean floor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11957198\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/CalWave-Pilot-30.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11957198\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/CalWave-Pilot-30-800x450.png\" alt=\"A boat sits on the open ocean, tugging a large, blue, metal rectangular machine into place.\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/CalWave-Pilot-30-800x450.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/CalWave-Pilot-30-1020x574.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/CalWave-Pilot-30-160x90.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/CalWave-Pilot-30-1536x864.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/CalWave-Pilot-30-2048x1152.png 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/CalWave-Pilot-30-1920x1080.png 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Oakland-based company, CalWave Power Technologies, places their xWave device off the San Diego coast in 2022 as part of a pilot program to turn wave energy into electricity. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of CalWave)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The co-founder of CalWave, Marcus Lehmann, developed the technology based on research done at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He compares the device to an electric car, except underwater. When the brakes are hit on an electric car going downhill, that action produces power that is turned into electricity that can then be stored.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The xWave sits underwater, and as waves swirl around it, an internal buoy is pushed by their force, moving in a circular motion with the flow of the water. And since the buoy is the only moving part, it doesn’t pose a risk to marine life, said Lehmann.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And then we slow it down and we use that energy to produce electricity,” Lehmann said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During CalWave’s pilot, they continuously exported power through a cable back to the pier for about ten months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It felt a little bit like a newborn where we were up at nights and weekends watching it and making sure everything was working fine,” Lehmann said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When it comes to wave energy, people are still tinkering with different designs, Lehmann says, just like they did in the early days of wind energy. Twenty years ago, after all, there were all sorts of wind turbine designs researchers were testing out. Now, most wind turbines have a three blade design because it’s the most efficient.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re not aware of any project in California or continental U.S. that exported power without interruption for that long,” Lehmann said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Next, CalWave is working on building a version of their pilot to be installed at that wave energy test site in Newport, Oregon. There it will share waters with devices built by other companies. Once the Oregon test site is fully operational in 2025 or so, it could generate enough power to supply a few thousand homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Lehmann, that’s just the beginning. He hopes wave energy can compete with offshore wind, and his company believes wave energy has the potential to meet \u003ca href=\"https://calwave.energy/insights-on-wave-power/\">about 30%\u003c/a> of the United States’ electricity demand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s been over a decade since Newsom set his sights on tidal energy and San Francisco embarked on a mission to harness energy in the Bay. Now, Dan Kammen, the energy expert at UC Berkeley, thinks the wave energy future could finally happen soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I will be surprised if in the next five years we’re not seeing wave and tidal technologies being installed for commercial operation,” Kammen said. “Not for testing, but to generate power either for a community or for a community with the excess being sent to the grid.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hello everybody, I’m Olivia Allen Price. And this is Bay Curious. I want to start today’s episode … at the ocean.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[crash of an ocean wave]\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And my gosh, whenever I look at the waves, I can’t help but marvel at their power … the sheer amount of energy they have.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[sound of ocean waves continues]\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">These waves have been on the mind of a Bay Curious listener…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Kwok:\u003c/b> My name is Alex Kwok. I’ve lived in the Bay Area for pretty much my whole life. Grown up in Fremont.\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Alex is a generally curious person. Random \u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">questions pop into his mind all the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Kwok:\u003c/b> Every time I kind of hear about the state going through another rolling power outage, or PG&E cutting power … that usually sparks some sort of thinking on my part.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/b>When it comes to green energy, he’s seen a lot of solar and wind energy projects here in California. But they have drawbacks. The wind doesn’t always blow. And the sun does set. Every day, actually. But the Ocean …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Kwok: \u003c/b>Okay, the ocean is always there. The tides are always going in and out, right? Why is there no talk about tidal power? Are there no companies testing any kind of tidal power technology here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/b>Today on Bay Curious … we are going to explore the potential of harnessing the ocean for energy. It’s a largely untapped frontier, for a few sensible reasons actually. But the tide may be turning … I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll explain more after the break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We sent reporter Holly J. McDede to answer Alex Kwok’s question. Turns out, San Franciscans have tried to tap into ocean energy for more than a century. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[sound of ocean waves]\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> The year is 1868\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, and a mechanic now known as “Mr. Robertson”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> has devised a grand experiment: a boat powered by not steam, or wind … but ocean waves!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Mr. Robertson and a few passengers set sail from San Francisco’s North Beach\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. \u003cem>The New York Times\u003c/em> documented the adventure …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice-over actor: \u003c/b>In his mind’s eye the inventor saw the new boat traveling the waters like a being of life, riding the billows sea-serpent fashion …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> But almost from the start, the experiment went sideways. Literally. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice-over actor: \u003c/b>She was hardly clear of the wharf when she swung around broadside to the tide and commenced bobbing and ducking in a most unpromisingly perverse manner, refusing to obey the helm at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Before the boat even made it out to sea, the passengers had to be rescued. The grand experiment to build a boat powered by waves came to an end. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But our quest to harness the ocean would not stop there …\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[music]\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Flash-forward 130-some years to the early 2000s. This time, it was San Francisco city leaders who had a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">grand\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> idea. Following what they’d seen done elsewhere … they thought a device, like a windmill, could be placed under the Golden Gate Bridge … its blades turned by the water to generate power. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Then-Mayor Gavin Newsom boasted about this when he was running for governor in 2009. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gov. Newsom: \u003c/b>Think about the mouth of the Golden Gate, the Bay, it’s relatively small, you’ve got this great energy that comes in and out, 24/7, all of that energy being wasted! Again. You’ve got the opportunity to do what’s been done in other countries, and that’s harness that energy flow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> The future, he said, was now!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Never mind that just a year before that, a study paid for by the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission said the whole idea was not economically feasible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">First off, it’s expensive. That study found that the turbines would cost as much as $15 million each … and $750,000 a year to maintain. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And it turns out the turbines would be way less productive than promised. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Finally, there were environmental concerns. Even Newsom was clued into those. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gov. Newsom: \u003c/b>This one has become more complicated, a lot of environmental concerns, if you have Plankton coming in, seals and sea lions … who knows what else, getting sucked up and consumed …we’re working on all those issues. [Laughter]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> And creating things meant to\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> last\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> underwater is really hard. Just look at how beat up a buoy gets or the rotten pillars of a pier. Salt is tough stuff! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Kammen: \u003c/b>Technology wasn’t ready, but the planning really was. Now these hardware options have caught up to that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> That’s \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Dan Kammen, a professor of energy at the University of California, Berkeley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Kammen:\u003c/b> It’s a very simple answer to the question why there hasn’t been a lot of this before. It’s really because the focus on clean energy for the past two decades has been first on solar and then on wind, or depending. There’s a little mix and match there. But this is just one that hasn’t gotten as much attention until recently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> California is aiming to be powered 100% by clean energy by 2045, but there’s still a long way to go. The state was at 37% in 2021, mainly coming from wind and solar. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Tapping into ocean energy could help chip away at the difference. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Kammen: \u003c/b>It’s not going to be a massive part of our energy. But it might be a really well-tailored technology to places that are already thinking about clean energy and have a port, a dock, a whole variety of kind of in the water hardware already.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Ocean waves do have some big upsides. They are more predictable and reliable than wind. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Water is also denser than air, and moving water packs a lot of energy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kammen and others advocating for this industry are optimistic because of new innovations that aim to reduce costs\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Kammen: \u003c/b>There are innovative hardware designs, some are big floating snakes, others look like buoys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> More funding is coming into the industry too. The U.S. Department of Energy is allocating $25 million to help support a new wave energy testing site. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s located just a few miles from the deep-water port of Newport, Oregon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There, companies are racing to turn ocean \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">waves\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> into \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And one California company … is in the running! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Music bridge ]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 2022, a little over a quarter mile off a pier at the University of San Diego, a 16-foot-wide, blue octagon-shaped device called xWave was submerged underwater … and tethered to the ocean floor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As the water swirls around it …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Ocean wave sound effects]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The device moved in a circular motion with it, around …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Ocean wave sound effects]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marcus Lehmann: \u003c/b>It’s pretty much similar to a wind turbine just with the difference that the wind turbine always runs in the same direction. In our case, the waves just go in circles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Marcus Lehmann is the cofounder of CalWave Power Technologies, the Oakland-based company behind that blue device. He developed the technology based on research done at UC Berkeley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">His company was testing out the\u003c/span> xWave\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> prototype for about 10 months. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marcus Lehmann: \u003c/b>It felt a little bit like a newborn where we were up at nights and weekends watching it and making sure everything is working fine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> He says when it comes to wave energy, people are still tinkering with different designs, just like they did in the early days of wind energy. Twenty years ago, there were all sorts of wind turbine designs researchers were testing out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marcus Lehmann:\u003c/b> The three-blade horizontal that emerged was really more through trial and error, through industrial experience finding it has the best performance, but then also the lowest cost, ultimately.\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> During CalWave’s pilot, they continuously exported power through a cable back to the pier. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marcus Lehmann: \u003c/b>We’re not aware of any project in California or continental U.S. that exported power without interruption for that long.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Next, CalWave is working on building a version of their pilot to be installed at that wave energy test site in Newport, Oregon. There it will share waters with devices built by \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">other\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> companies.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Once the Oregon test site is fully operational in 2025 or so, it could generate enough power … enough to supply a few thousand homes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To Lehmann that’s just the beginning. He hopes wave energy can compete with \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">offshore wind. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">CalWave believes wave energy has the potential to meet up to 30% of the United States’ electricity demand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After all, wave energy could be the world’s largest untapped energy resource. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[music bridge]\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s been decades since Newsom made that speech declaring that the future of tidal energy is now. And San Francisco embarked on the mission to harness energy in the Bay … but \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Dan Kammen, the professor of energy we spoke to earlier,\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> believes that the wave energy future … is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">actually\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> going to happen pretty soon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Kammen: \u003c/b>I will be surprised if in the next five years we’re not seeing wave and tidal technologies being installed for commercial operation, not for testing, but to generate power either for a community or for a community with the excess being sent to the grid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[music bridge]\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Sounds like promising stuff, but slow going. Are there places around the world where wave or tidal energy is up and running?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> There have certainly been a lot of attempts! A few projects have come and gone … but funding has always been an issue. There is a fishing village in Spain’s northern coast that does have a wave power plant up and running. Beyond that, several companies are in the research and testing phase.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>You mentioned the $25 million in federal funding being spent on ocean energy technologies — but is California doing anything to move this along?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Yes … slowly but surely. A state bill to study the feasibility of wave and tidal energy developments in California is currently moving through the state Legislature. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Could we ever see a wave energy site off our coast in the Bay Area?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> It’s possible, but I don’t think the Bay Area is top on the list. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A hot button issue in the green energy space has been ensuring the transition away from fossil fuels doesn’t leave certain people or communities behind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The federal government is providing incentives for green energy projects that benefit people that have been overburdened by pollution and historic underinvestment. There are coastal communities that are struggling that could stand to benefit from those resources and the promise of wave energy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Alright well, Holly J. McDede, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong>\u003c/span> \u003c/b>You’re welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[music]\u003c/em>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you are new to Bay Curious … Welcome! And be sure to subscribe or follow us wherever you listen to podcasts so you don’t miss a future episode. Be sure to stick around until the end of the show to play our Sierra Nevada podcast trivia game.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> is made by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana and Holly Kernan.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price, have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Waves have been on the mind of Alex Kwok, a Bay Curious listener who grew up in Fremont. When it comes to green energy, he’s seen a lot of solar and wind energy projects here in California. But he says the ocean seems particularly promising because of its consistency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The ocean is always there. The tides are always going in and out,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That made Kwok wonder: “Why is there no talk about tidal power? Are there no companies testing any kind of tidal power technology here?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The grand idea makes some waves\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Turns out, there has been talk of tapping into tidal and wave energy among San Franciscans for more than a century. In 1868, there was even a failed attempt at \u003ca href=\"https://www.outsidelands.org/wave-tidal.php\">creating a wave-powered boat\u003c/a> that was covered by \u003cem>The New York Times\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But for the kind of ocean energy Alex is asking about, let’s look back to the early 2000s, when San Francisco city leaders\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna3339905\"> had a grand idea\u003c/a>. Following what they’d seen done elsewhere, they thought a device, like a windmill, could be placed under the Golden Gate Bridge, its blades turned by the water to generate power. Then-Mayor Gavin Newsom boasted about this when he was running for governor in 2009.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Think about the mouth of the Golden Gate, the Bay, it’s relatively small, you’ve got this great energy that comes in and out, 24/7, all of that energy being wasted!” he said at the time. “You’ve got the opportunity to do what’s been done in other countries, and that’s harness that energy flow.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11957196\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/RS18710_GettyImages-56494642-qut.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11957196\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/RS18710_GettyImages-56494642-qut-800x531.jpg\" alt=\"Two people jog along a cement walkway that borders San Francisco Bay on a stormy day. Large waves are crashing over the edge of the walkway. The Golden Gate Bridge is visible in the background.\" width=\"800\" height=\"531\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/RS18710_GettyImages-56494642-qut-800x531.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/RS18710_GettyImages-56494642-qut-1020x677.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/RS18710_GettyImages-56494642-qut-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/RS18710_GettyImages-56494642-qut-1536x1019.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/RS18710_GettyImages-56494642-qut.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Two runners watch as waves crash against the rocks at Fort Point near the Golden Gate Bridge Dec. 28, 2005 in San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Justin Sullivan/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But there were some problems. The San Francisco Environment Department had looked into a tidal project for the Bay in 2008, but a technical consultant determined the project was not commercially feasible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Tidal power is a peaky resource — only generating during high tides. The consultant also found tidal power to be very expensive — especially as compared to other types of renewable energy,” the San Francisco Environment Department wrote to KQED. “To make in-stream tidal power feasible, the cost of technology and its installation must decline significantly.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A study paid for by the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission found that the turbines would cost as much as $15 million each, and $750,000 a year to maintain. They could be less productive than promised, and there were also environmental concerns. Even Newsom was clued into those.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If you have plankton coming in, seals and sea lions … who knows what else, getting sucked up and consumed,” Newsom said. “We’re working on all those issues.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Plus, salt is tough stuff, and creating devices meant to last underwater is really hard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The project was dead in the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The tides begin to turn\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“Technology wasn’t ready, but the planning really was,” said Daniel M. Kammen, a professor of energy at UC Berkeley. He also serves in the Biden-Harris Administration as the senior advisor for energy innovation at the United States Agency for International Development.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kammen said the focus on clean energy for the past two decades has been on solar and wind, but now technology for the ocean is catching up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California is aiming to be \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2018/09/10/646373423/california-sets-goal-of-100-percent-renewable-electric-power-by-2045\">powered 100% by clean energy by 2045\u003c/a>, but there’s still a long way to go. The state was at 37% in 2021, mainly coming from wind and solar. Tapping into ocean energy could help chip away at the difference.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s not going to be a massive part of our energy. But it might be a really well-tailored technology to places that are already thinking about clean energy and have a port, a dock, and a whole variety of water hardware already,” Kammen said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ocean energy overall is \u003ca href=\"https://unfccc.int/blog/wave-of-the-future\">more predictable and reliable than wind\u003c/a>. Water is roughly \u003ca href=\"https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960148123009771\">830 times denser than air,\u003c/a> and moving water packs colossal energy. And about half of the world’s population lives within 124 miles of a coastline, according to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.prb.org/resources/ripple-effects-population-and-coastal-regions/#:~:text=Today%2C%20approximately%203%20billion%20people,200%20kilometers%20of%20a%20coastline.\">Population Reference Bureau\u003c/a>. Now, wave energy and tidal energy are different, though both have some upsides.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_tides/tides05_lunarday.html#:~:text=Since%20the%20Earth%20rotates%20through,24%20hours%20and%2050%20minutes.\">Tides\u003c/a> are a twice-a-day cycle, driven by the rise and fall of the sea \u003ca href=\"https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_tides/tides02_cause.html\">caused by the gravitational attraction\u003c/a> of the sun and moon on the oceans of the earth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/facts/waves.html\">Waves\u003c/a> are caused by energy passing through the water, which causes the water to move in a circular motion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kammen and others advocating for this industry are optimistic because of new innovations that aim to reduce costs, and increasing government support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The U.S. Department of Energy is \u003ca href=\"https://today.oregonstate.edu/news/dept-energy-awards-25-million-wave-energy-technology-testing-oregon-state-facility#:~:text=Dept.-,of%20Energy%20awards%20%2425%20million%20for%20wave,testing%20at%20Oregon%20State%20facility&text=CORVALLIS%2C%20Ore.,central%20Oregon%20coast%20near%20Newport.\">allocating $25 million\u003c/a> to help support a new wave-energy testing site located a few miles from the deepwater port of Newport, Oregon. The Biden Administration has \u003ca href=\"https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Ocean-Climate-Action-Plan_Final.pdf\">set a goal (PDF)\u003c/a> to “responsibly advance” the commercialization of marine energy technologies that convert energy from waves, tides, currents, and other ocean sources. And, a California state bill, \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202320240SB605\">SB 605\u003c/a>, could direct state agencies to study the feasibility and potential for wave and tidal energy development in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>CalWave enters the race\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>An Oakland-based company, CalWave Power Technologies, is one of several companies racing to turn waves into electricity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Beginning in 2021, a little over a quarter mile off a pier operated by the University of San Diego, a 16-foot-wide, blue octagon-shaped device called xWave was submerged underwater, and tethered to the ocean floor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11957198\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/CalWave-Pilot-30.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11957198\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/CalWave-Pilot-30-800x450.png\" alt=\"A boat sits on the open ocean, tugging a large, blue, metal rectangular machine into place.\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/CalWave-Pilot-30-800x450.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/CalWave-Pilot-30-1020x574.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/CalWave-Pilot-30-160x90.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/CalWave-Pilot-30-1536x864.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/CalWave-Pilot-30-2048x1152.png 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/CalWave-Pilot-30-1920x1080.png 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Oakland-based company, CalWave Power Technologies, places their xWave device off the San Diego coast in 2022 as part of a pilot program to turn wave energy into electricity. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of CalWave)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The co-founder of CalWave, Marcus Lehmann, developed the technology based on research done at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He compares the device to an electric car, except underwater. When the brakes are hit on an electric car going downhill, that action produces power that is turned into electricity that can then be stored.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The xWave sits underwater, and as waves swirl around it, an internal buoy is pushed by their force, moving in a circular motion with the flow of the water. And since the buoy is the only moving part, it doesn’t pose a risk to marine life, said Lehmann.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And then we slow it down and we use that energy to produce electricity,” Lehmann said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During CalWave’s pilot, they continuously exported power through a cable back to the pier for about ten months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It felt a little bit like a newborn where we were up at nights and weekends watching it and making sure everything was working fine,” Lehmann said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When it comes to wave energy, people are still tinkering with different designs, Lehmann says, just like they did in the early days of wind energy. Twenty years ago, after all, there were all sorts of wind turbine designs researchers were testing out. Now, most wind turbines have a three blade design because it’s the most efficient.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re not aware of any project in California or continental U.S. that exported power without interruption for that long,” Lehmann said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Next, CalWave is working on building a version of their pilot to be installed at that wave energy test site in Newport, Oregon. There it will share waters with devices built by other companies. Once the Oregon test site is fully operational in 2025 or so, it could generate enough power to supply a few thousand homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Lehmann, that’s just the beginning. He hopes wave energy can compete with offshore wind, and his company believes wave energy has the potential to meet \u003ca href=\"https://calwave.energy/insights-on-wave-power/\">about 30%\u003c/a> of the United States’ electricity demand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s been over a decade since Newsom set his sights on tidal energy and San Francisco embarked on a mission to harness energy in the Bay. Now, Dan Kammen, the energy expert at UC Berkeley, thinks the wave energy future could finally happen soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I will be surprised if in the next five years we’re not seeing wave and tidal technologies being installed for commercial operation,” Kammen said. “Not for testing, but to generate power either for a community or for a community with the excess being sent to the grid.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hello everybody, I’m Olivia Allen Price. And this is Bay Curious. I want to start today’s episode … at the ocean.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[crash of an ocean wave]\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And my gosh, whenever I look at the waves, I can’t help but marvel at their power … the sheer amount of energy they have.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[sound of ocean waves continues]\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">These waves have been on the mind of a Bay Curious listener…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Kwok:\u003c/b> My name is Alex Kwok. I’ve lived in the Bay Area for pretty much my whole life. Grown up in Fremont.\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Alex is a generally curious person. Random \u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">questions pop into his mind all the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Kwok:\u003c/b> Every time I kind of hear about the state going through another rolling power outage, or PG&E cutting power … that usually sparks some sort of thinking on my part.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/b>When it comes to green energy, he’s seen a lot of solar and wind energy projects here in California. But they have drawbacks. The wind doesn’t always blow. And the sun does set. Every day, actually. But the Ocean …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Kwok: \u003c/b>Okay, the ocean is always there. The tides are always going in and out, right? Why is there no talk about tidal power? Are there no companies testing any kind of tidal power technology here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/b>Today on Bay Curious … we are going to explore the potential of harnessing the ocean for energy. It’s a largely untapped frontier, for a few sensible reasons actually. But the tide may be turning … I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll explain more after the break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We sent reporter Holly J. McDede to answer Alex Kwok’s question. Turns out, San Franciscans have tried to tap into ocean energy for more than a century. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[sound of ocean waves]\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> The year is 1868\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, and a mechanic now known as “Mr. Robertson”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> has devised a grand experiment: a boat powered by not steam, or wind … but ocean waves!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Mr. Robertson and a few passengers set sail from San Francisco’s North Beach\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. \u003cem>The New York Times\u003c/em> documented the adventure …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice-over actor: \u003c/b>In his mind’s eye the inventor saw the new boat traveling the waters like a being of life, riding the billows sea-serpent fashion …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> But almost from the start, the experiment went sideways. Literally. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice-over actor: \u003c/b>She was hardly clear of the wharf when she swung around broadside to the tide and commenced bobbing and ducking in a most unpromisingly perverse manner, refusing to obey the helm at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Before the boat even made it out to sea, the passengers had to be rescued. The grand experiment to build a boat powered by waves came to an end. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But our quest to harness the ocean would not stop there …\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[music]\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Flash-forward 130-some years to the early 2000s. This time, it was San Francisco city leaders who had a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">grand\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> idea. Following what they’d seen done elsewhere … they thought a device, like a windmill, could be placed under the Golden Gate Bridge … its blades turned by the water to generate power. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Then-Mayor Gavin Newsom boasted about this when he was running for governor in 2009. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gov. Newsom: \u003c/b>Think about the mouth of the Golden Gate, the Bay, it’s relatively small, you’ve got this great energy that comes in and out, 24/7, all of that energy being wasted! Again. You’ve got the opportunity to do what’s been done in other countries, and that’s harness that energy flow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> The future, he said, was now!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Never mind that just a year before that, a study paid for by the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission said the whole idea was not economically feasible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">First off, it’s expensive. That study found that the turbines would cost as much as $15 million each … and $750,000 a year to maintain. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And it turns out the turbines would be way less productive than promised. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Finally, there were environmental concerns. Even Newsom was clued into those. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gov. Newsom: \u003c/b>This one has become more complicated, a lot of environmental concerns, if you have Plankton coming in, seals and sea lions … who knows what else, getting sucked up and consumed …we’re working on all those issues. [Laughter]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> And creating things meant to\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> last\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> underwater is really hard. Just look at how beat up a buoy gets or the rotten pillars of a pier. Salt is tough stuff! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Kammen: \u003c/b>Technology wasn’t ready, but the planning really was. Now these hardware options have caught up to that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> That’s \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Dan Kammen, a professor of energy at the University of California, Berkeley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Kammen:\u003c/b> It’s a very simple answer to the question why there hasn’t been a lot of this before. It’s really because the focus on clean energy for the past two decades has been first on solar and then on wind, or depending. There’s a little mix and match there. But this is just one that hasn’t gotten as much attention until recently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> California is aiming to be powered 100% by clean energy by 2045, but there’s still a long way to go. The state was at 37% in 2021, mainly coming from wind and solar. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Tapping into ocean energy could help chip away at the difference. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Kammen: \u003c/b>It’s not going to be a massive part of our energy. But it might be a really well-tailored technology to places that are already thinking about clean energy and have a port, a dock, a whole variety of kind of in the water hardware already.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Ocean waves do have some big upsides. They are more predictable and reliable than wind. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Water is also denser than air, and moving water packs a lot of energy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kammen and others advocating for this industry are optimistic because of new innovations that aim to reduce costs\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Kammen: \u003c/b>There are innovative hardware designs, some are big floating snakes, others look like buoys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> More funding is coming into the industry too. The U.S. Department of Energy is allocating $25 million to help support a new wave energy testing site. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s located just a few miles from the deep-water port of Newport, Oregon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There, companies are racing to turn ocean \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">waves\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> into \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And one California company … is in the running! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Music bridge ]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 2022, a little over a quarter mile off a pier at the University of San Diego, a 16-foot-wide, blue octagon-shaped device called xWave was submerged underwater … and tethered to the ocean floor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As the water swirls around it …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Ocean wave sound effects]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The device moved in a circular motion with it, around …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Ocean wave sound effects]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marcus Lehmann: \u003c/b>It’s pretty much similar to a wind turbine just with the difference that the wind turbine always runs in the same direction. In our case, the waves just go in circles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Marcus Lehmann is the cofounder of CalWave Power Technologies, the Oakland-based company behind that blue device. He developed the technology based on research done at UC Berkeley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">His company was testing out the\u003c/span> xWave\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> prototype for about 10 months. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marcus Lehmann: \u003c/b>It felt a little bit like a newborn where we were up at nights and weekends watching it and making sure everything is working fine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> He says when it comes to wave energy, people are still tinkering with different designs, just like they did in the early days of wind energy. Twenty years ago, there were all sorts of wind turbine designs researchers were testing out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marcus Lehmann:\u003c/b> The three-blade horizontal that emerged was really more through trial and error, through industrial experience finding it has the best performance, but then also the lowest cost, ultimately.\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> During CalWave’s pilot, they continuously exported power through a cable back to the pier. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marcus Lehmann: \u003c/b>We’re not aware of any project in California or continental U.S. that exported power without interruption for that long.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Next, CalWave is working on building a version of their pilot to be installed at that wave energy test site in Newport, Oregon. There it will share waters with devices built by \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">other\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> companies.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Once the Oregon test site is fully operational in 2025 or so, it could generate enough power … enough to supply a few thousand homes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To Lehmann that’s just the beginning. He hopes wave energy can compete with \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">offshore wind. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">CalWave believes wave energy has the potential to meet up to 30% of the United States’ electricity demand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After all, wave energy could be the world’s largest untapped energy resource. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[music bridge]\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s been decades since Newsom made that speech declaring that the future of tidal energy is now. And San Francisco embarked on the mission to harness energy in the Bay … but \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Dan Kammen, the professor of energy we spoke to earlier,\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> believes that the wave energy future … is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">actually\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> going to happen pretty soon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Kammen: \u003c/b>I will be surprised if in the next five years we’re not seeing wave and tidal technologies being installed for commercial operation, not for testing, but to generate power either for a community or for a community with the excess being sent to the grid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[music bridge]\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Sounds like promising stuff, but slow going. Are there places around the world where wave or tidal energy is up and running?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> There have certainly been a lot of attempts! A few projects have come and gone … but funding has always been an issue. There is a fishing village in Spain’s northern coast that does have a wave power plant up and running. Beyond that, several companies are in the research and testing phase.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>You mentioned the $25 million in federal funding being spent on ocean energy technologies — but is California doing anything to move this along?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Yes … slowly but surely. A state bill to study the feasibility of wave and tidal energy developments in California is currently moving through the state Legislature. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Could we ever see a wave energy site off our coast in the Bay Area?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> It’s possible, but I don’t think the Bay Area is top on the list. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A hot button issue in the green energy space has been ensuring the transition away from fossil fuels doesn’t leave certain people or communities behind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The federal government is providing incentives for green energy projects that benefit people that have been overburdened by pollution and historic underinvestment. There are coastal communities that are struggling that could stand to benefit from those resources and the promise of wave energy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Alright well, Holly J. McDede, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong>\u003c/span> \u003c/b>You’re welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[music]\u003c/em>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you are new to Bay Curious … Welcome! And be sure to subscribe or follow us wherever you listen to podcasts so you don’t miss a future episode. Be sure to stick around until the end of the show to play our Sierra Nevada podcast trivia game.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> is made by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana and Holly Kernan.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price, have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Why Doesn't the Bay Area Have a Pro Women's Sports Team?",
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"headTitle": "Why Doesn’t the Bay Area Have a Pro Women’s Sports Team? | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>Afifa Tawil works for the women’s and non-binary semi-pro ultimate frisbee team, \u003ca href=\"https://www.falconsultimate.com/\">the San Francisco Falcons\u003c/a>, and she’s noticed something: The Bay Area has a men’s pro football team, a men’s pro basketball team, a men’s pro soccer team, a men’s pro hockey team, and (at least for now) two men’s pro baseball teams.[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s a lot of sports. But no women’s pro team!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So she wants to know why. “Why isn’t there a professional women’s or non-binary team in the Bay Area?” she asked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Afifa thinks our area has a lot going for it: a big, outdoors-y population and progressive values that would appear supportive of women’s sports. Other places have women’s pro sports teams. Why not here?\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The good news first\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Well, first off: There is one coming. The newest team in the National Women’s Soccer League, the Bay FC, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11952128/bay-areas-first-professional-womens-soccer-team-kicks-off-with-public-launch\">held a launch event last month\u003c/a> and they are getting ready for their debut season in spring 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it took a long time to make that happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Brandi Chastain, \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-A1-Rz_pks\">of World Cup fame\u003c/a>, it took almost two years to get the team off the ground. Chastain, who grew up playing on the boys team in San José, is one of four founders of the Bay FC — all of whom grew up or live in the Bay Area, and all of whom played on the U.S. national team. They said it has taken years and multiple attempts to line up investment partners, media and interest. And that interest is finally building and momentum is shifting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It has to be the right time and the right moment with the right people,” she said at the launch event.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The other piece of semi-good news: There actually have been women’s pro teams in the Bay Area before — from basketball to softball.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the bad news: They all folded. The past attempts at women’s pro teams couldn’t survive. Which means Tawil’s question still stands. Why exactly did it take so long for the Bay Area to get this newest professional women’s team? Shouldn’t women’s sports be big here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>In the beginning\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before professional sports — men’s or women’s — really existed in a modern form, elite women’s sports could be found throughout the Bay Area. In fact, the first collegiate women’s basketball ever played was here, between Stanford and UC Berkeley back in 1896.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956654\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1132px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2023/07/29/why-doesnt-the-bay-area-have-a-pro-womens-sports-team/sf-call-image-1132x917/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11956654\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11956654\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/SF-Call-image-1132x917-1.jpeg\" alt=\"an old-fashioned drawing of women on a basketball court\" width=\"1132\" height=\"917\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/SF-Call-image-1132x917-1.jpeg 1132w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/SF-Call-image-1132x917-1-800x648.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/SF-Call-image-1132x917-1-1020x826.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/SF-Call-image-1132x917-1-160x130.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1132px) 100vw, 1132px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An artist from The San Francisco Call captured the historic basketball game. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Call/Library of Congress)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The sport had only been invented a few years earlier and you probably wouldn’t recognize it now. Nine women played on a half-size court, wearing the athletic clothing of the day: knee-length bloomers, tall socks, and long-sleeve sweaters. Still, it was a hard-fought battle. \u003cem>The San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> wrote, at the time:\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“From the very first the game was snappy. The bewitched pigskin seemed to be everywhere and nowhere … Sometimes with a slump and a slide three girls would dive for the ball and end in an inextricable heap … In less time than it takes to read it they were all planted firmly on their two feet, flushed, perspiring … oblivious of everything except that ball.”\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>A crowd of 700 women cheered on the teams and, even though men weren’t allowed in the gym, many watched through the windows. Stanford won, and when they returned to campus they were greeted by crowds and the famous Stanford band.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There were pockets like this throughout the Bay Area during the late 1800s and early 1900s, said \u003ca href=\"https://www.csueastbay.edu/directory/profiles/kpe/libertirita.html\">Rita Liberti\u003c/a>, a professor of sports history at CSU East Bay. “Softball was huge among a range of communities across class and race and ethnicity,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Basketball was played in Chinatown and around San Francisco. Women’s swimming was big, especially in Santa Clara. San Francisco even had a pro co-ed roller derby team — called the Bay Bombers — who played mostly at Kezar Stadium and Cow Palace and, at one point, drew 1 million spectators a year along with television broadcasts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And there was running. For example, the Dipsea Race, in Marin County, was popular for elite competitive women.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“From 1918 to 1922, it was really an incredible run, hundreds of participants, thousands of people watching,” said Liberti.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956841\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2023/07/29/why-doesnt-the-bay-area-have-a-pro-womens-sports-team/i/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11956841\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11956841\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/i.jpeg\" alt=\"an older black and white photo shows a crowd of women dressed in old-fashioned athlete gear gathered at a start line\" width=\"920\" height=\"518\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/i.jpeg 920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/i-800x450.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/i-160x90.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 920px) 100vw, 920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Dipsea ‘Hike’ for women drew huge numbers from 1918–1922. \u003ccite>(Dipsea Race Committee)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It was called a “\u003ca href=\"https://www.dipsea.org/news/2018-02-11-womenshikehistory.php\">hike\u003c/a>” to get around bans at the time on women running competitively. But despite that, and even wearing long skirts and boots, the winning woman in 1922 covered the mountainous 7.5-mile course in one hour and 12 minutes. It’s a time that would place her in the top quarter of athletes at this year’s race. Her “hike” was most definitely a run.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re talking about girls and women who were kind of everyday athletes. But we’re also talking about elite athleticism, women who were really skilled,” said Liberti. “And all of this is happening in the San Francisco Bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For decades, we \u003cem>were\u003c/em> a place for elite women’s sports. But then came the pushback.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A 50-year ban\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Every time women found a place for elite athleticism in the first half of the century, there came periodic backlash. Just a few years after that first basketball game, Stanford put an end to all intercollegiate women’s sports for fear of the stress on women’s bodies. A conservative wave then pushed across the country starting in the 1920s, seen across all aspects of life. And, while small fringe pockets for women to thrive could continue to be found, the Bay Area was not immune to conservative fears.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[T]he reason why the Dipsea Hike, the race, ended in 1922, is that community leaders felt it was too harsh for women to continue running that race. And so there’s still those combination [of] fears about female frailty, like their ovaries are going to fall out or something if they run up and down a basketball court, or that they’ll become too mannish,” said Liberti. “The Bay Area may seem intensely progressive. But it carries with it ideas about gender, and we’re not immune from that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the last Dipsea women’s hike in 1922, the race wouldn’t open back up to women for five decades — until 1971.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This happened across many women’s sports, with many facing decades of being barred from participating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When that finally changed, after so many years of being banned or limited, building a foundation back up for women’s sports was slow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Title IX — the landmark legislation that banned gender discrimination — passed a year later, in 1972, it wasn’t until 1982 that the NCAA even added women’s basketball. That’s nearly 90 years after that first Stanford-Cal game was played.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And by the 1970s, modern pro men’s sports as we think of them were really taking shape with money, sponsors, tickets and TV deals. This is when we first see an attempt at professional women’s teams, too. But they were on the back foot, having to catch up to the audience and investment that men’s teams had built.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Meet the SF Pioneers\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>It was then, in 1979, that San Francisco got a women’s professional basketball team: the SF Pioneers. They joined the brand new, first of its kind, women’s pro basketball league, which called itself the WBL.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was like a dream come true for me, because I never thought the United States would ever have a women’s league,” said \u003ca href=\"https://thelegends.org/our-team/\">Cardte Hicks\u003c/a>, one of the women on that team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBkMz2ix2_0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hicks had played for CSU Northridge and had a 42-inch vertical jump. She was recruited to San Francisco by the coach, Frank LaPorte, who had heard of her and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/ostler/article/Inspiring-dunks-of-Stanford-s-Belibi-echo-16036458.php\">her famous dunking\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never even knew that dunking was something spectacular. I just thought it was fun to be able to get up that high,” she said, “He had heard a lot about me playing in AAU. I played for my brothers, because they wouldn’t allow women to play, so they’d dress me up like a boy, tape my boobs down, what little bit I did have,” she said. “And people would come out because they’d heard about that girl that could jump.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Pioneers played at the Civic Center and were supported by Willie Brown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One thing I can truly say is that San Francisco showed some love, in the gay community, more so than any community. They were just so supportive. They wanted this to grow,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the players didn’t get paid much and, after the novelty wore off, they didn’t get much media attention or marketing either. “We didn’t get marketed like they do with the WNBA. We didn’t have a lot of money. Me personally, I’d have played for nothing, as long as I can get out there and play,” said Hicks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How much did she get paid? About $1,500 per month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956859\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11956859\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847-800x1306.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white image of 4 women on a basketball court. Three of them wear dark uniforms, and one is in a white uniform. The 2 women in the middle ground are leaping into the air after a basketball that is above them out of frame.\" width=\"800\" height=\"1306\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847-800x1306.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847-160x261.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847-941x1536.jpg 941w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847.jpg 992w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The San Francisco Pioneers, a women’s professional basketball team, playing a game in the first national league on Dec. 30, 1980. \u003ccite>(Steve Ringman/San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The players were good, though, she said. Imagine if they’d had the opportunities available now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When the league folded, it was a heartbreaker for all of us,” she said. By 1981, the WBL was done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A few years ago, many of those players, including Hicks, were honored by the WNBA and inducted into the \u003ca href=\"https://www.wbhof.com/\">Women’s Basketball Hall of Fame\u003c/a>. But back in the early ’80s, without enough capital or coverage, the WBL couldn’t last. The team and league shut down and Hicks went back to playing overseas where there were more opportunities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This happened to a lot of the newly formed women’s pro teams during the ’70s and ’80s. They keep getting shortchanged and shut down, struggling to catch up to the head start the men’s teams had.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All of these women’s pro sport leagues are short lived,” said Liberti, “Like they come and they go, they’re in and they’re out. They don’t have funding. There’s no capital. There’s no media following them at this point.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This pattern continued for decades. There was the San Jose Sunbirds, a pro softball team, which was later followed by the California Sunbirds in Stockton, which were part of the on-and-off National Pro Fastpitch league. There was the FC Gold Pride, part of one of the early women’s pro soccer leagues, who played in Hayward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There have been a number of different women’s pro teams in the Bay Area over the years, but they haven’t lasted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Are things finally changing? Has the time finally come for one to succeed here?\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A shift happening\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Back to the launch of the new women’s pro soccer team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I just think sometimes people are resistant to understanding what is possible if they haven’t seen it done before,” said Aly Wagner, another one of the four founders of the Bay FC. Wagner also played on the national team and in previous women’s pro leagues — none of which lasted. “We’re in a very different place now than where we were then. And one of the things that I keep coming back to is that there were always gatekeepers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What Wagner means is that for a long time the people who make the decisions in regards to sports funding kept saying: “No point in investing in women’s sports; no one wants to watch women’s sports; don’t put them on TV.” And so nothing happened. There was no investment, media or marketing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Right now, though, in July 2023, as the \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/2023-womens-world-cup-breaks-ticket-sale-records-viewership-way-up-over-2019/\">Women’s World Cup\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/232-million-watched-live-broadcasts-of-2022-tour-de-france-femmes/\">Tour de France Femmes\u003c/a> draw millions of viewers, it’s hard not to notice a shift happening globally. \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/articles/ncaa-womens-basketball-final-ratings-record-c8a9f218\">Almost 10 million people tuned in for the women’s March Madness final\u003c/a>. WNBA opening weekend viewership was up 100%. \u003ca href=\"https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/37630607/women-attendances-dominated-european-football-2022\">The three most attended soccer games in Europe last year were all women’s matches\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s clear there is money to be made — and that’s what’s changing. Investors now see there’s a market, an audience, an entire base of women’s sports fans who are not being served. And with the potential for profit, comes funding, which brings broadcast TV deals. And since you can’t be a fan of what you can’t see, that brings more viewers and more fans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Now I think that people are starting to understand that the momentum is there, the data is there. Everything is signaling that this is the right time,” Wagner said. “It might have been the right time before, but now it’s \u003cem>really\u003c/em> the right time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956860\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11956860\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut-800x532.jpg\" alt=\"A row of people smile at the camera, they are all wearing items of clothing with the logo for a women's soccer team called "Bay FC."\" width=\"800\" height=\"532\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut-800x532.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut-1020x678.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut-1536x1022.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sheryl Sandberg, Danielle Slaton, Brandi Chastain, Leslie Osborne and Aly Wagner pose for a photo with other attendees at a kickoff event for Bay FC, the Bay Area’s first team in the National Women’s Soccer League, at the Presidio in San Francisco, on June 3, 2023. \u003ccite>(Kori Suzuki/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>At the Bay FC team launch event, fans were excited too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Oh, I’m so excited,” said Deepa Patel. “I started watching the NWSL after the 2015 World Cup and since then I’ve just been waiting for a team.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Finally we have a women’s team in Northern California. We don’t have to fly to Portland, we don’t have to go to L.A., we don’t have to fly to San Diego. Finally we have something representing Northern California, and the Bay Area,” said Monica MacMillan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There have always been women’s sports in the Bay Area. There are professional runners, cyclists, tennis players, swimmers, and ice-skaters. There are semi-pro teams here, too. But now it might really be time for a fully-fledged, fully-funded major pro team that lasts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s just one last obstacle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are also efforts to bring a WNBA expansion team here, though the commissioner has said “\u003ca href=\"https://justwomenssports.com/reads/wnba-expansion-teams-timeline-cathy-engelbert-commissioner/\">not yet\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At issue is another factor that answers Afifa Tawil’s original question. It can be tough to start teams in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s often easier to start out and build in smaller markets, especially during the survival mode women’s sports have historically existed in. In small markets, you can sometimes build women’s teams as a kind of homegrown oddity attraction. The Bay Area, by contrast, is a little hard for people to get their heads around, a little hard to conquer for any one new team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think the Bay Area is perhaps daunting to a lot of people because we have so much going on there,” said Wagner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s so spread out, so diverse, there’s so many other things to do besides sit inside and watch sports on TV. We’re not always considered a great sports market. But Brandi Chastain disagrees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Bay Area is the best sports town and we’re going to prove it,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Bay FC starts play in the spring and after that, who knows. Maybe a WNBA team in Oakland. Or dream big: A softball team in Hayward; a women’s hockey team in San José. Momentum is building. As the women’s soccer fans like to say: LFG.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Afifa Tawil works for the women’s and non-binary semi-pro ultimate frisbee team, \u003ca href=\"https://www.falconsultimate.com/\">the San Francisco Falcons\u003c/a>, and she’s noticed something: The Bay Area has a men’s pro football team, a men’s pro basketball team, a men’s pro soccer team, a men’s pro hockey team, and (at least for now) two men’s pro baseball teams.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s a lot of sports. But no women’s pro team!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So she wants to know why. “Why isn’t there a professional women’s or non-binary team in the Bay Area?” she asked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Afifa thinks our area has a lot going for it: a big, outdoors-y population and progressive values that would appear supportive of women’s sports. Other places have women’s pro sports teams. Why not here?\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The good news first\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Well, first off: There is one coming. The newest team in the National Women’s Soccer League, the Bay FC, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11952128/bay-areas-first-professional-womens-soccer-team-kicks-off-with-public-launch\">held a launch event last month\u003c/a> and they are getting ready for their debut season in spring 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it took a long time to make that happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Brandi Chastain, \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-A1-Rz_pks\">of World Cup fame\u003c/a>, it took almost two years to get the team off the ground. Chastain, who grew up playing on the boys team in San José, is one of four founders of the Bay FC — all of whom grew up or live in the Bay Area, and all of whom played on the U.S. national team. They said it has taken years and multiple attempts to line up investment partners, media and interest. And that interest is finally building and momentum is shifting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It has to be the right time and the right moment with the right people,” she said at the launch event.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The other piece of semi-good news: There actually have been women’s pro teams in the Bay Area before — from basketball to softball.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the bad news: They all folded. The past attempts at women’s pro teams couldn’t survive. Which means Tawil’s question still stands. Why exactly did it take so long for the Bay Area to get this newest professional women’s team? Shouldn’t women’s sports be big here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>In the beginning\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before professional sports — men’s or women’s — really existed in a modern form, elite women’s sports could be found throughout the Bay Area. In fact, the first collegiate women’s basketball ever played was here, between Stanford and UC Berkeley back in 1896.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956654\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1132px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2023/07/29/why-doesnt-the-bay-area-have-a-pro-womens-sports-team/sf-call-image-1132x917/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11956654\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11956654\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/SF-Call-image-1132x917-1.jpeg\" alt=\"an old-fashioned drawing of women on a basketball court\" width=\"1132\" height=\"917\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/SF-Call-image-1132x917-1.jpeg 1132w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/SF-Call-image-1132x917-1-800x648.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/SF-Call-image-1132x917-1-1020x826.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/SF-Call-image-1132x917-1-160x130.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1132px) 100vw, 1132px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An artist from The San Francisco Call captured the historic basketball game. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Call/Library of Congress)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The sport had only been invented a few years earlier and you probably wouldn’t recognize it now. Nine women played on a half-size court, wearing the athletic clothing of the day: knee-length bloomers, tall socks, and long-sleeve sweaters. Still, it was a hard-fought battle. \u003cem>The San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> wrote, at the time:\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“From the very first the game was snappy. The bewitched pigskin seemed to be everywhere and nowhere … Sometimes with a slump and a slide three girls would dive for the ball and end in an inextricable heap … In less time than it takes to read it they were all planted firmly on their two feet, flushed, perspiring … oblivious of everything except that ball.”\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>A crowd of 700 women cheered on the teams and, even though men weren’t allowed in the gym, many watched through the windows. Stanford won, and when they returned to campus they were greeted by crowds and the famous Stanford band.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There were pockets like this throughout the Bay Area during the late 1800s and early 1900s, said \u003ca href=\"https://www.csueastbay.edu/directory/profiles/kpe/libertirita.html\">Rita Liberti\u003c/a>, a professor of sports history at CSU East Bay. “Softball was huge among a range of communities across class and race and ethnicity,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Basketball was played in Chinatown and around San Francisco. Women’s swimming was big, especially in Santa Clara. San Francisco even had a pro co-ed roller derby team — called the Bay Bombers — who played mostly at Kezar Stadium and Cow Palace and, at one point, drew 1 million spectators a year along with television broadcasts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And there was running. For example, the Dipsea Race, in Marin County, was popular for elite competitive women.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“From 1918 to 1922, it was really an incredible run, hundreds of participants, thousands of people watching,” said Liberti.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956841\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2023/07/29/why-doesnt-the-bay-area-have-a-pro-womens-sports-team/i/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11956841\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11956841\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/i.jpeg\" alt=\"an older black and white photo shows a crowd of women dressed in old-fashioned athlete gear gathered at a start line\" width=\"920\" height=\"518\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/i.jpeg 920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/i-800x450.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/i-160x90.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 920px) 100vw, 920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Dipsea ‘Hike’ for women drew huge numbers from 1918–1922. \u003ccite>(Dipsea Race Committee)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It was called a “\u003ca href=\"https://www.dipsea.org/news/2018-02-11-womenshikehistory.php\">hike\u003c/a>” to get around bans at the time on women running competitively. But despite that, and even wearing long skirts and boots, the winning woman in 1922 covered the mountainous 7.5-mile course in one hour and 12 minutes. It’s a time that would place her in the top quarter of athletes at this year’s race. Her “hike” was most definitely a run.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re talking about girls and women who were kind of everyday athletes. But we’re also talking about elite athleticism, women who were really skilled,” said Liberti. “And all of this is happening in the San Francisco Bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For decades, we \u003cem>were\u003c/em> a place for elite women’s sports. But then came the pushback.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A 50-year ban\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Every time women found a place for elite athleticism in the first half of the century, there came periodic backlash. Just a few years after that first basketball game, Stanford put an end to all intercollegiate women’s sports for fear of the stress on women’s bodies. A conservative wave then pushed across the country starting in the 1920s, seen across all aspects of life. And, while small fringe pockets for women to thrive could continue to be found, the Bay Area was not immune to conservative fears.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[T]he reason why the Dipsea Hike, the race, ended in 1922, is that community leaders felt it was too harsh for women to continue running that race. And so there’s still those combination [of] fears about female frailty, like their ovaries are going to fall out or something if they run up and down a basketball court, or that they’ll become too mannish,” said Liberti. “The Bay Area may seem intensely progressive. But it carries with it ideas about gender, and we’re not immune from that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the last Dipsea women’s hike in 1922, the race wouldn’t open back up to women for five decades — until 1971.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This happened across many women’s sports, with many facing decades of being barred from participating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When that finally changed, after so many years of being banned or limited, building a foundation back up for women’s sports was slow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Title IX — the landmark legislation that banned gender discrimination — passed a year later, in 1972, it wasn’t until 1982 that the NCAA even added women’s basketball. That’s nearly 90 years after that first Stanford-Cal game was played.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And by the 1970s, modern pro men’s sports as we think of them were really taking shape with money, sponsors, tickets and TV deals. This is when we first see an attempt at professional women’s teams, too. But they were on the back foot, having to catch up to the audience and investment that men’s teams had built.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Meet the SF Pioneers\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>It was then, in 1979, that San Francisco got a women’s professional basketball team: the SF Pioneers. They joined the brand new, first of its kind, women’s pro basketball league, which called itself the WBL.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was like a dream come true for me, because I never thought the United States would ever have a women’s league,” said \u003ca href=\"https://thelegends.org/our-team/\">Cardte Hicks\u003c/a>, one of the women on that team.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/eBkMz2ix2_0'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/eBkMz2ix2_0'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>Hicks had played for CSU Northridge and had a 42-inch vertical jump. She was recruited to San Francisco by the coach, Frank LaPorte, who had heard of her and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/ostler/article/Inspiring-dunks-of-Stanford-s-Belibi-echo-16036458.php\">her famous dunking\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never even knew that dunking was something spectacular. I just thought it was fun to be able to get up that high,” she said, “He had heard a lot about me playing in AAU. I played for my brothers, because they wouldn’t allow women to play, so they’d dress me up like a boy, tape my boobs down, what little bit I did have,” she said. “And people would come out because they’d heard about that girl that could jump.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Pioneers played at the Civic Center and were supported by Willie Brown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One thing I can truly say is that San Francisco showed some love, in the gay community, more so than any community. They were just so supportive. They wanted this to grow,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the players didn’t get paid much and, after the novelty wore off, they didn’t get much media attention or marketing either. “We didn’t get marketed like they do with the WNBA. We didn’t have a lot of money. Me personally, I’d have played for nothing, as long as I can get out there and play,” said Hicks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How much did she get paid? About $1,500 per month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956859\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11956859\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847-800x1306.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white image of 4 women on a basketball court. Three of them wear dark uniforms, and one is in a white uniform. The 2 women in the middle ground are leaping into the air after a basketball that is above them out of frame.\" width=\"800\" height=\"1306\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847-800x1306.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847-160x261.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847-941x1536.jpg 941w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847.jpg 992w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The San Francisco Pioneers, a women’s professional basketball team, playing a game in the first national league on Dec. 30, 1980. \u003ccite>(Steve Ringman/San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The players were good, though, she said. Imagine if they’d had the opportunities available now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When the league folded, it was a heartbreaker for all of us,” she said. By 1981, the WBL was done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A few years ago, many of those players, including Hicks, were honored by the WNBA and inducted into the \u003ca href=\"https://www.wbhof.com/\">Women’s Basketball Hall of Fame\u003c/a>. But back in the early ’80s, without enough capital or coverage, the WBL couldn’t last. The team and league shut down and Hicks went back to playing overseas where there were more opportunities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This happened to a lot of the newly formed women’s pro teams during the ’70s and ’80s. They keep getting shortchanged and shut down, struggling to catch up to the head start the men’s teams had.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All of these women’s pro sport leagues are short lived,” said Liberti, “Like they come and they go, they’re in and they’re out. They don’t have funding. There’s no capital. There’s no media following them at this point.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This pattern continued for decades. There was the San Jose Sunbirds, a pro softball team, which was later followed by the California Sunbirds in Stockton, which were part of the on-and-off National Pro Fastpitch league. There was the FC Gold Pride, part of one of the early women’s pro soccer leagues, who played in Hayward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There have been a number of different women’s pro teams in the Bay Area over the years, but they haven’t lasted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Are things finally changing? Has the time finally come for one to succeed here?\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A shift happening\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Back to the launch of the new women’s pro soccer team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I just think sometimes people are resistant to understanding what is possible if they haven’t seen it done before,” said Aly Wagner, another one of the four founders of the Bay FC. Wagner also played on the national team and in previous women’s pro leagues — none of which lasted. “We’re in a very different place now than where we were then. And one of the things that I keep coming back to is that there were always gatekeepers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What Wagner means is that for a long time the people who make the decisions in regards to sports funding kept saying: “No point in investing in women’s sports; no one wants to watch women’s sports; don’t put them on TV.” And so nothing happened. There was no investment, media or marketing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Right now, though, in July 2023, as the \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/2023-womens-world-cup-breaks-ticket-sale-records-viewership-way-up-over-2019/\">Women’s World Cup\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/232-million-watched-live-broadcasts-of-2022-tour-de-france-femmes/\">Tour de France Femmes\u003c/a> draw millions of viewers, it’s hard not to notice a shift happening globally. \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/articles/ncaa-womens-basketball-final-ratings-record-c8a9f218\">Almost 10 million people tuned in for the women’s March Madness final\u003c/a>. WNBA opening weekend viewership was up 100%. \u003ca href=\"https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/37630607/women-attendances-dominated-european-football-2022\">The three most attended soccer games in Europe last year were all women’s matches\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s clear there is money to be made — and that’s what’s changing. Investors now see there’s a market, an audience, an entire base of women’s sports fans who are not being served. And with the potential for profit, comes funding, which brings broadcast TV deals. And since you can’t be a fan of what you can’t see, that brings more viewers and more fans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Now I think that people are starting to understand that the momentum is there, the data is there. Everything is signaling that this is the right time,” Wagner said. “It might have been the right time before, but now it’s \u003cem>really\u003c/em> the right time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956860\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11956860\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut-800x532.jpg\" alt=\"A row of people smile at the camera, they are all wearing items of clothing with the logo for a women's soccer team called "Bay FC."\" width=\"800\" height=\"532\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut-800x532.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut-1020x678.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut-1536x1022.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sheryl Sandberg, Danielle Slaton, Brandi Chastain, Leslie Osborne and Aly Wagner pose for a photo with other attendees at a kickoff event for Bay FC, the Bay Area’s first team in the National Women’s Soccer League, at the Presidio in San Francisco, on June 3, 2023. \u003ccite>(Kori Suzuki/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>At the Bay FC team launch event, fans were excited too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Oh, I’m so excited,” said Deepa Patel. “I started watching the NWSL after the 2015 World Cup and since then I’ve just been waiting for a team.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Finally we have a women’s team in Northern California. We don’t have to fly to Portland, we don’t have to go to L.A., we don’t have to fly to San Diego. Finally we have something representing Northern California, and the Bay Area,” said Monica MacMillan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There have always been women’s sports in the Bay Area. There are professional runners, cyclists, tennis players, swimmers, and ice-skaters. There are semi-pro teams here, too. But now it might really be time for a fully-fledged, fully-funded major pro team that lasts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s just one last obstacle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are also efforts to bring a WNBA expansion team here, though the commissioner has said “\u003ca href=\"https://justwomenssports.com/reads/wnba-expansion-teams-timeline-cathy-engelbert-commissioner/\">not yet\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At issue is another factor that answers Afifa Tawil’s original question. It can be tough to start teams in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s often easier to start out and build in smaller markets, especially during the survival mode women’s sports have historically existed in. In small markets, you can sometimes build women’s teams as a kind of homegrown oddity attraction. The Bay Area, by contrast, is a little hard for people to get their heads around, a little hard to conquer for any one new team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think the Bay Area is perhaps daunting to a lot of people because we have so much going on there,” said Wagner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s so spread out, so diverse, there’s so many other things to do besides sit inside and watch sports on TV. We’re not always considered a great sports market. But Brandi Chastain disagrees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Bay Area is the best sports town and we’re going to prove it,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Bay FC starts play in the spring and after that, who knows. Maybe a WNBA team in Oakland. Or dream big: A softball team in Hayward; a women’s hockey team in San José. Momentum is building. As the women’s soccer fans like to say: LFG.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "from-berkeley-to-the-bomb-oppenheimer-before-los-alamos",
"title": "From Berkeley to the Bomb: Oppenheimer Before Los Alamos",
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"headTitle": "From Berkeley to the Bomb: Oppenheimer Before Los Alamos | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"http://bit.ly/3KfNyJE\">Read a transcript of this episode (PDF).\u003c/a> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Unless you’ve been living on a remote island somewhere, you’ve probably heard the buzz about the new film \u003cem>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYPbbksJxIg\">Oppenheimer\u003c/a>\u003c/em>. It’s a three-hour biographical thriller about the life and work of physicist J. Robert Oppenheimer, widely considered to be the father of the atomic bomb. But before the Manhattan Project led Oppenheimer to Los Alamos, he was a professor at UC Berkeley, and some of the initial research into nuclear physics that led to the creation of the bomb was done at the university.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Arrival in Berkeley\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oppenheimer began teaching at Berkeley after returning from work at universities in the Netherlands and Switzerland in the fall of 1928. So in-demand was he that the school worked out a deal to allow Oppenheimer to spend part of his time teaching at CalTech in Pasadena in order to get him to accept the job at UC Berkeley.[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His research interests included theoretical astronomy, nuclear physics, quantum field theory, and later, astrophysics. When he wasn’t in the classroom, Oppenheimer enjoyed campus life, and spent his spare time studying other languages, including Sanskrit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He thought deeply about literature and philosophy and cared about culture and politics by the 1930s in a way that made him a kind of renaissance man,” said UC Berkeley History Department Chair Cathryn Carson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956613\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-Fermi-Lawrence.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11956613\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-Fermi-Lawrence-800x694.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white image of three men in suits standing on the grounds of a college campus.\" width=\"800\" height=\"694\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-Fermi-Lawrence-800x694.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-Fermi-Lawrence-1020x885.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-Fermi-Lawrence-160x139.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-Fermi-Lawrence-1536x1332.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-Fermi-Lawrence.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">From left, J. Robert Oppenheimer, Enrico Fermi and Ernest O. Lawrence on the campus at UC Berkeley. \u003ccite>(Roy Kaltschmidt/Courtesy of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It was also at UC Berkeley that Oppenheimer met a fellow professor who would become an important scientific collaborator, Ernest Lawrence. The two men became close friends — Lawrence even named one of his sons Robert, after Oppenheimer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Oppenheimer was a theorist. Lawrence was an experimentalist,” said Carson, “And together they both realized that the new frontier of science in the 1920s and 30s was going to be the atomic nucleus.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1929, Lawrence was working in Berkeley’s Radiation Laboratory, now named the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in honor of him. There Lawrence designed the first cyclotron, a type of particle accelerator, which later won him a Nobel Prize.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The cyclotron was also the means by which plutonium was first discovered and synthesized at UC Berkeley, an element that would later be used in the first atomic bomb test, as well as in the bomb dropped on Nagasaki, Japan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956616\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Cyclotron.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11956616\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Cyclotron-800x640.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white archival image of 5 men in suits sitting beneath a large, round metal machine, looking up at it.\" width=\"800\" height=\"640\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Cyclotron-800x640.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Cyclotron-1020x816.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Cyclotron-160x128.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Cyclotron-1536x1229.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Cyclotron.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A press visit to the 184-cyclotron, taken in the spring of1946. (Left to right: Donald Cooksey, Ernest Orlando Lawrence, Robert Thornton, J. Robert Oppenheimer, and William Brobeck) \u003ccite>(Marilee B Bailey/Courtesy of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Oppenheimer and Lawrence worked together on research to break apart the center of an atom to release energy. It was the early days of nuclear physics. At the time they had no idea that they were laying the foundational science for the atomic bomb.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Into the desert\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1938, two German scientists released a paper demonstrating that uranium is subject to nuclear fission, setting off alarm bells in the United States. Albert Einstein — who had left Germany by that point — drafted a letter to then U.S. president Franklin D. Roosevelt, warning that nuclear fission could result in an extraordinary weapon of war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>American military leaders immediately began discussing plans for a secret laboratory to beat the Third Reich to it by creating their own weapon. Los Alamos, New Mexico, was selected as the site for this top secret research facility, and Oppenheimer was tapped to lead the project. The University of California would manage the lab, and brilliant scientists from all over would be brought to the site to work on creating two bombs — one using uranium, and one plutonium.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lawrence and Oppenheimer lived with their families on a lone mesa in New Mexico. Oppenheimer had previously spent time in New Mexico and had a ranch he called Perro Caliente.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956614\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-Lawrence-in-NM.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11956614\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-Lawrence-in-NM-800x524.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white image. Two men stand in the open desert, with bright sun blazing. One is leaning against the back corner of a 1930s car while the other stand a little off to the right. They are both wearing knee high black leather boots.\" width=\"800\" height=\"524\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-Lawrence-in-NM-800x524.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-Lawrence-in-NM-1020x668.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-Lawrence-in-NM-160x105.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-Lawrence-in-NM-1536x1006.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-Lawrence-in-NM.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Robert Oppenheimer (left) and Ernest Orlando Lawrence at Oppenheimer’s New Mexico ranch, 1931. The two men were close friends and scientific collaborators. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Berkeley Lab)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“It’s a crash program. It’s intense. It’s isolated,” said Carson, “Everything that’s being done in the laboratory or in the seminar room is being tracked against the progress of the war in Europe and the war in the Pacific.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Intelligence from Germany was sparse, so the scientists in Los Alamos just had to work as quickly as possible and hope they were ahead.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A weapon of catastrophic proportions\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The scientists worked diligently and in isolation in the New Mexico desert for several years. At its peak, the Manhattan Project employed 130,000 people and the government would eventually spend billions of dollars. In the spring of 1945, the war in Europe was basically over. Germany had surrendered in May of that year, but the war in Japan raged on so the Manhattan Project continued.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A plutonium implosion-type weapon, a style of bomb nicknamed “Fat Man,” was developed in Los Alamos, and the U.S. government wanted to test it. On June 16, 1945, the device was set off in a remote section of desert in central New Mexico. It was dubbed the Trinity Test.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18ZFUCOT8Xc\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In an interview with NBC, Oppenheimer recalled his reaction upon seeing the destructive capabilities of the atomic bomb during the Trinity Test.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“We knew the world would not be the same. Few people laughed. Few people cried. Most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture of the Bhagavad Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi armed form and says, ‘Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.’ I suppose we all thought that one way or another.”\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>On August 6, 1945, the US government dropped the first atomic bomb in the war, a uranium device, on Hiroshima, Japan. Three days later they dropped a plutonium device, like the one tested in New Mexico, on Nagasaki.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s estimated that 200,000 people died as a result of the explosions and in the aftermath of the bombings. By this time in the war, more than 400,000 Americans had also been killed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In the end, the American leaders who decided to use the atomic bombs were thinking about the fact that they had a weapon that could end the war,” said Carson, “And if they didn’t use it, how would they explain that choice?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was only after the bombings that anyone outside the strict zone of secrecy realizes what UC Berkeley’s contribution to the war effort is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Because this is the bomb that marks the end of the war, it is hugely, extraordinarily celebrated,” said Carson, “It’s a spectacular weapon. And when the news breaks, it’s understood that the University of California has put itself in the service of the nation. And Oppenheimer is seen as the father of the bomb.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956617\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-LBJ.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11956617\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-LBJ-800x578.jpg\" alt=\"Archival black and white photo of 6 men in dark suits standing in a row inside the White House.\" width=\"800\" height=\"578\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-LBJ-800x578.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-LBJ-1020x737.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-LBJ-160x116.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-LBJ-1536x1110.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-LBJ.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Enrico Fermi Award ceremony in December, 1963 at White House with Robert Oppenheimer (center), Glenn Seaborg and President Lyndon B. Johnson. \u003ccite>(Roy Kaltschmidt/Courtesy of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Oppenheimer never said he regretted the use of the bomb, but he always said that he was very sorry that it had to happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the years the University of California has continued to support the study and development of nuclear weapons. However, UC Berkeley’s connection to federal weapon laboratories is not nearly as strong today as it was immediately after World War II.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"http://bit.ly/3KfNyJE\">Read a transcript of this episode (PDF).\u003c/a> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Unless you’ve been living on a remote island somewhere, you’ve probably heard the buzz about the new film \u003cem>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYPbbksJxIg\">Oppenheimer\u003c/a>\u003c/em>. It’s a three-hour biographical thriller about the life and work of physicist J. Robert Oppenheimer, widely considered to be the father of the atomic bomb. But before the Manhattan Project led Oppenheimer to Los Alamos, he was a professor at UC Berkeley, and some of the initial research into nuclear physics that led to the creation of the bomb was done at the university.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Arrival in Berkeley\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oppenheimer began teaching at Berkeley after returning from work at universities in the Netherlands and Switzerland in the fall of 1928. So in-demand was he that the school worked out a deal to allow Oppenheimer to spend part of his time teaching at CalTech in Pasadena in order to get him to accept the job at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His research interests included theoretical astronomy, nuclear physics, quantum field theory, and later, astrophysics. When he wasn’t in the classroom, Oppenheimer enjoyed campus life, and spent his spare time studying other languages, including Sanskrit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He thought deeply about literature and philosophy and cared about culture and politics by the 1930s in a way that made him a kind of renaissance man,” said UC Berkeley History Department Chair Cathryn Carson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956613\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-Fermi-Lawrence.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11956613\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-Fermi-Lawrence-800x694.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white image of three men in suits standing on the grounds of a college campus.\" width=\"800\" height=\"694\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-Fermi-Lawrence-800x694.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-Fermi-Lawrence-1020x885.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-Fermi-Lawrence-160x139.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-Fermi-Lawrence-1536x1332.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-Fermi-Lawrence.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">From left, J. Robert Oppenheimer, Enrico Fermi and Ernest O. Lawrence on the campus at UC Berkeley. \u003ccite>(Roy Kaltschmidt/Courtesy of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It was also at UC Berkeley that Oppenheimer met a fellow professor who would become an important scientific collaborator, Ernest Lawrence. The two men became close friends — Lawrence even named one of his sons Robert, after Oppenheimer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Oppenheimer was a theorist. Lawrence was an experimentalist,” said Carson, “And together they both realized that the new frontier of science in the 1920s and 30s was going to be the atomic nucleus.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1929, Lawrence was working in Berkeley’s Radiation Laboratory, now named the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in honor of him. There Lawrence designed the first cyclotron, a type of particle accelerator, which later won him a Nobel Prize.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The cyclotron was also the means by which plutonium was first discovered and synthesized at UC Berkeley, an element that would later be used in the first atomic bomb test, as well as in the bomb dropped on Nagasaki, Japan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956616\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Cyclotron.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11956616\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Cyclotron-800x640.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white archival image of 5 men in suits sitting beneath a large, round metal machine, looking up at it.\" width=\"800\" height=\"640\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Cyclotron-800x640.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Cyclotron-1020x816.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Cyclotron-160x128.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Cyclotron-1536x1229.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Cyclotron.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A press visit to the 184-cyclotron, taken in the spring of1946. (Left to right: Donald Cooksey, Ernest Orlando Lawrence, Robert Thornton, J. Robert Oppenheimer, and William Brobeck) \u003ccite>(Marilee B Bailey/Courtesy of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Oppenheimer and Lawrence worked together on research to break apart the center of an atom to release energy. It was the early days of nuclear physics. At the time they had no idea that they were laying the foundational science for the atomic bomb.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Into the desert\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1938, two German scientists released a paper demonstrating that uranium is subject to nuclear fission, setting off alarm bells in the United States. Albert Einstein — who had left Germany by that point — drafted a letter to then U.S. president Franklin D. Roosevelt, warning that nuclear fission could result in an extraordinary weapon of war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>American military leaders immediately began discussing plans for a secret laboratory to beat the Third Reich to it by creating their own weapon. Los Alamos, New Mexico, was selected as the site for this top secret research facility, and Oppenheimer was tapped to lead the project. The University of California would manage the lab, and brilliant scientists from all over would be brought to the site to work on creating two bombs — one using uranium, and one plutonium.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lawrence and Oppenheimer lived with their families on a lone mesa in New Mexico. Oppenheimer had previously spent time in New Mexico and had a ranch he called Perro Caliente.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956614\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-Lawrence-in-NM.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11956614\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-Lawrence-in-NM-800x524.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white image. Two men stand in the open desert, with bright sun blazing. One is leaning against the back corner of a 1930s car while the other stand a little off to the right. They are both wearing knee high black leather boots.\" width=\"800\" height=\"524\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-Lawrence-in-NM-800x524.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-Lawrence-in-NM-1020x668.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-Lawrence-in-NM-160x105.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-Lawrence-in-NM-1536x1006.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-Lawrence-in-NM.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Robert Oppenheimer (left) and Ernest Orlando Lawrence at Oppenheimer’s New Mexico ranch, 1931. The two men were close friends and scientific collaborators. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Berkeley Lab)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“It’s a crash program. It’s intense. It’s isolated,” said Carson, “Everything that’s being done in the laboratory or in the seminar room is being tracked against the progress of the war in Europe and the war in the Pacific.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Intelligence from Germany was sparse, so the scientists in Los Alamos just had to work as quickly as possible and hope they were ahead.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A weapon of catastrophic proportions\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The scientists worked diligently and in isolation in the New Mexico desert for several years. At its peak, the Manhattan Project employed 130,000 people and the government would eventually spend billions of dollars. In the spring of 1945, the war in Europe was basically over. Germany had surrendered in May of that year, but the war in Japan raged on so the Manhattan Project continued.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A plutonium implosion-type weapon, a style of bomb nicknamed “Fat Man,” was developed in Los Alamos, and the U.S. government wanted to test it. On June 16, 1945, the device was set off in a remote section of desert in central New Mexico. It was dubbed the Trinity Test.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/18ZFUCOT8Xc'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/18ZFUCOT8Xc'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In an interview with NBC, Oppenheimer recalled his reaction upon seeing the destructive capabilities of the atomic bomb during the Trinity Test.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“We knew the world would not be the same. Few people laughed. Few people cried. Most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture of the Bhagavad Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi armed form and says, ‘Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.’ I suppose we all thought that one way or another.”\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>On August 6, 1945, the US government dropped the first atomic bomb in the war, a uranium device, on Hiroshima, Japan. Three days later they dropped a plutonium device, like the one tested in New Mexico, on Nagasaki.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s estimated that 200,000 people died as a result of the explosions and in the aftermath of the bombings. By this time in the war, more than 400,000 Americans had also been killed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In the end, the American leaders who decided to use the atomic bombs were thinking about the fact that they had a weapon that could end the war,” said Carson, “And if they didn’t use it, how would they explain that choice?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was only after the bombings that anyone outside the strict zone of secrecy realizes what UC Berkeley’s contribution to the war effort is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Because this is the bomb that marks the end of the war, it is hugely, extraordinarily celebrated,” said Carson, “It’s a spectacular weapon. And when the news breaks, it’s understood that the University of California has put itself in the service of the nation. And Oppenheimer is seen as the father of the bomb.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956617\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-LBJ.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11956617\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-LBJ-800x578.jpg\" alt=\"Archival black and white photo of 6 men in dark suits standing in a row inside the White House.\" width=\"800\" height=\"578\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-LBJ-800x578.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-LBJ-1020x737.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-LBJ-160x116.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-LBJ-1536x1110.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/Oppenheimer-and-LBJ.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Enrico Fermi Award ceremony in December, 1963 at White House with Robert Oppenheimer (center), Glenn Seaborg and President Lyndon B. Johnson. \u003ccite>(Roy Kaltschmidt/Courtesy of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Oppenheimer never said he regretted the use of the bomb, but he always said that he was very sorry that it had to happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the years the University of California has continued to support the study and development of nuclear weapons. However, UC Berkeley’s connection to federal weapon laboratories is not nearly as strong today as it was immediately after World War II.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q7BNr6kOVbzQpP46ZuANDKQEgjwIpge7/view?usp=drive_link\">Read a transcript of this episode. \u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you watch national TV news — or eavesdrop at your local coffee shop — you may have heard something like this: San Francisco’s offices are lying vacant, homelessness is rampant, and the city is floundering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Judith Gottlieb, a retired nurse in Oakland, has been hearing some of those stories. And the idea of people sleeping on the street breaks her heart. One day, she got an idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I heard about all these empty office buildings in San Francisco, and I was thinking, couldn’t we just move [people] in there really quickly?” Gottlieb asked Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Office vacancy is hovering around 30% in downtown San Francisco, and recently there’s been a lot of talk about converting all these empty offices to living space as a way to create much-needed housing and revive downtown at the same time. [baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The unhoused need dignity. They need a roof over their head,” said Gottlieb. “Anything we can do is better than just waiting around.”\u003cbr>\nBay Curious looked into the economics of converting office space to housing in the city, and explored whether this is a good option for getting people off the streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How difficult is conversion?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Offices have been converted to housing before in San Francisco, but only a handful of times, according to the San Francisco Planning Commission. But as far as the agency knows, it hasn’t been done for people experiencing homelessness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A prime example of a market-rate conversion is 100 Van Ness, a 28-story, glass-covered tower just steps from Market Street and City Hall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This tower first belonged to the California State Automobile Association and was built in the 1970s. Back then, it was a beige tower of concrete with small rectangular windows. Now its exterior is almost all glass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11955562\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-scaled.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11955562 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-scaled.jpeg\" alt=\"A white man wearing a suit smiles at the camera in the foreground. He's standing on the rooftop of a skyscraper. Behind him is a view of the San Francisco city skyline.\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1920\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-scaled.jpeg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-800x600.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-1020x765.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-160x120.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-1536x1152.jpeg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-2048x1536.jpeg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-1920x1440.jpeg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Strachan Forgan stands on the rooftop of 100 Van Ness. \u003ccite>(Pauline Bartolone/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We essentially took off the entire façade of the building and replaced it with this floor-to-ceiling glass,” said Strachan Forgan, a principal at SCB, the architectural firm that helped create the residential units in 2015.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During a recent tour of 100 Van Ness, Forgan explained the complete transformation of the interior of the building. The once sprawling open floors of office space have been carved up into hundreds of luxury apartments. Only four of the original eight elevators remain, because residential settings have less need for elevators, according to Forgan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The converted apartments — ranging from $3,159 for a tiny studio to more than $6,000 for a roomy two-bedroom — are not without design quirks. Some are attractive, others less so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Things residents may enjoy are the elevated ceilings — slightly higher than in your standard apartment. Developers also removed the heating and cooling machinery, which is typically kept on office building roofs, to make open leisure space instead, complete with chairs and 360-degree views of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It has pretty spectacular views in every direction,” said Forgan, with a backdrop of the Marin Headlands, and the many hills of San Francisco, behind him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the downside, some apartments at Van Ness have fewer surface area for windows, so bedrooms use “borrowed light” from living spaces. Because the apartments are carved out of a vast open office floor, many of the apartments are long and deep, stretching from the window to the center elevators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a result, many apartments at 100 Van Ness have long, tunnel-like hallways with windows at the end. In one of the building’s one-bedroom units, a windowless bedroom in the middle of the layout has a semi-transparent wall to let in light from the living room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11954821\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11954821 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A large empty room with a glass sliding door and glass panels in one wall.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A sliding door and light panels allow light through to an interior bedroom in a converted apartment at 100 Van Ness in San Francisco on June 30, 2023. Built in 1974, the building was converted from office space to residential apartment units in 2012. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>When 100 Van Ness first opened to residents, units with windowless bedrooms were initially offered with significant discounts, but developers soon found that wasn’t necessary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Actually, the residents really like it because it’s very quiet,” said Forgan. “You’re away from the hustle and bustle. It can be a little darker, so if you’re sleeping there, it’s fine.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>It comes down to money\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Forgan’s firm wants to stay in this business of designing conversions of offices to housing. They see the value to downtown San Francisco, and the environment. Reusing an existing building has a smaller carbon footprint than knocking it down and starting from scratch.\u003cbr>\nSo why is this project one of only a handful of office-to-residential conversions in San Francisco?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Perhaps not surprisingly, it has largely to do with the high cost of housing development.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a very basic level, there’s the cost of new plumbing and electrical. You need pipes for new kitchens and bathrooms. Then, a lot of these buildings need a seismic upgrade. Forgan says the kind of housing that would recoup costs of a conversion would be at the higher end of the market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’ve got to buy the building and do everything to convert it. And by the time you add up those costs, the only thing that pencils [out] is more of a luxury product, especially with a building like this that has great views and a good location,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11954820\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11954820 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"People pass a sign on a city sidewalk advertising luxury apartments.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People pass by the entrance to the 100 Van Ness building in San Francisco on June 30, 2023. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Housing developers like the Emerald Fund, which backed 100 Van Ness, say they’re interested in doing more office-to-housing conversions. The raw construction costs of converting offices could actually be done more cheaply than building a brand-new apartment tower, says Marc Babsin, president of the fund.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Babsin says they’ve looked at four office buildings to convert recently, but so far, no new project has made sense cost-wise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We continue to look. We think this is a great idea from a public policy perspective. We do need to save our downtowns and this is a great way to do that, to bring people onto the street,” said Babsin. “It’s a great way to produce housing that is currently not being produced.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Public policy experts at the San Francisco Bay Area Planning and Urban Research Association (SPUR) agree that the hefty costs of development can make such a project a nonstarter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sujata Srivastava, San Francisco director at SPUR, explained a few of the financial burdens that give housing developers pause:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>City fees that support public projects like child care programs and transportation, which can add up to millions of dollars.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Transfer and property taxes.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Reduced revenue potential, because San Francisco requires a certain number of units be affordable to lower-income tenants.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Construction costs, which are very expensive right now.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>“It doesn’t really make any financial sense to do conversions under the current costs that we have in San Francisco,” said Srivastava, adding that housing development is even less likely because rents are also down since before the pandemic. “The math just doesn’t really work.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A recent SPUR report suggests city lawmakers need to make major changes if they want to jump-start these conversions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco politicians have already made some changes, and are working on more. The Mayor’s Office and supervisors have relaxed rules about open space, sunlight and apartment sizes for some conversions. Elected city officials have proposed reducing affordable housing requirements and impact fees on all new housing developments, but not as low as developers want.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s all part of the city’s effort to jump-start more activity downtown and build more housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A solution for homelessness?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Since the pandemic emptied out office space in the Financial District, downtown streets look vacant; pedestrians experience windy sidewalks, empty restaurants and sparse foot traffic. Graham Luth was sitting on the sidewalk on 2nd Street near Montgomery Street one recent Friday morning, trying to get money to go to Colorado.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I got evicted, sort of,” said Luth about being temporarily without a home. “I got a job offer but I’m short on bus money.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When asked about this idea of sheltering people in empty office space downtown, Luth looked up at the tall buildings around him, and said, if no one’s using them, why not?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s a fantastic idea because there is a lot of space that is just … sitting there,” said Luth. “So I guess just being able to figure out who owns the spaces and if … they’re not gaining or losing, that the space can be used for a matter that would help support the whole community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, the city of San Francisco may have already found a different way to shelter people without housing: buying underused hotels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the things that happened during the pandemic that … really kind of changed the landscape around solving homelessness was this idea of using hotels,” said Jennifer Friedenbach, executive director of the Coalition on Homelessness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the pandemic, San Francisco and their partner organizations bought eight hotels and apartment buildings to provide permanent supportive housing to people who were formerly on the streets. It has created almost 1,000 new housing units for people without shelter. The city is in the process of acquiring two more buildings. [emailsignup newslettername=\"baycurious\" align=\"right\"]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a result of San Francisco’s efforts, the unsheltered unhoused population has gone down 15% since 2020. That’s as homelessness in general has gone up around the state, according to the Public Policy Institute of California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Folks are getting housed,” said Friedenbach. “That has been really incredible.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco used state COVID-19 money through Project Homekey and a local tax on large corporations, known to San Francisco voters as Proposition C, to purchase and operate the buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We had unprecedented success during COVID,” said Shireen McSpadden, executive director of San Francisco’s Department of Homelessness and Supportive Housing, about their recent efforts to house unsheltered people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The success is due to the enormous resources that were made available to them through Project Homekey and local tax dollars, said McSpadden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It really showed what can happen when you can marshal resources,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Friedenbach says making housing out of hotel rooms is easier and cheaper because it already has living space infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of the tourist hotels have larger rooms. You can turn them into studio apartments and have small kitchens,” Friedenbach said. “There’s all these design things you can do that are really cool and you’ve already got the pipes, the electricity, the water.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With nationally owned hotels like the Hilton and Parc 55 abandoning their Union Square buildings, and the city’s recent track record of housing people in hotels, repurposing these newly abandoned buildings doesn’t seem like a wild idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for Judith Gottlieb’s question, it seems that vacant hotels may be a better option for housing unsheltered people. But those vacant offices in the city’s core could one day be high-end housing, especially if lawmakers take more steps to make conversions cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q7BNr6kOVbzQpP46ZuANDKQEgjwIpge7/view?usp=drive_link\">Read a transcript of this episode. \u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you watch national TV news — or eavesdrop at your local coffee shop — you may have heard something like this: San Francisco’s offices are lying vacant, homelessness is rampant, and the city is floundering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Judith Gottlieb, a retired nurse in Oakland, has been hearing some of those stories. And the idea of people sleeping on the street breaks her heart. One day, she got an idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I heard about all these empty office buildings in San Francisco, and I was thinking, couldn’t we just move [people] in there really quickly?” Gottlieb asked Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Office vacancy is hovering around 30% in downtown San Francisco, and recently there’s been a lot of talk about converting all these empty offices to living space as a way to create much-needed housing and revive downtown at the same time. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The unhoused need dignity. They need a roof over their head,” said Gottlieb. “Anything we can do is better than just waiting around.”\u003cbr>\nBay Curious looked into the economics of converting office space to housing in the city, and explored whether this is a good option for getting people off the streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How difficult is conversion?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Offices have been converted to housing before in San Francisco, but only a handful of times, according to the San Francisco Planning Commission. But as far as the agency knows, it hasn’t been done for people experiencing homelessness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A prime example of a market-rate conversion is 100 Van Ness, a 28-story, glass-covered tower just steps from Market Street and City Hall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This tower first belonged to the California State Automobile Association and was built in the 1970s. Back then, it was a beige tower of concrete with small rectangular windows. Now its exterior is almost all glass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11955562\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-scaled.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11955562 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-scaled.jpeg\" alt=\"A white man wearing a suit smiles at the camera in the foreground. He's standing on the rooftop of a skyscraper. Behind him is a view of the San Francisco city skyline.\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1920\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-scaled.jpeg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-800x600.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-1020x765.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-160x120.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-1536x1152.jpeg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-2048x1536.jpeg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/IMG_6909-1920x1440.jpeg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Strachan Forgan stands on the rooftop of 100 Van Ness. \u003ccite>(Pauline Bartolone/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We essentially took off the entire façade of the building and replaced it with this floor-to-ceiling glass,” said Strachan Forgan, a principal at SCB, the architectural firm that helped create the residential units in 2015.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During a recent tour of 100 Van Ness, Forgan explained the complete transformation of the interior of the building. The once sprawling open floors of office space have been carved up into hundreds of luxury apartments. Only four of the original eight elevators remain, because residential settings have less need for elevators, according to Forgan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The converted apartments — ranging from $3,159 for a tiny studio to more than $6,000 for a roomy two-bedroom — are not without design quirks. Some are attractive, others less so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Things residents may enjoy are the elevated ceilings — slightly higher than in your standard apartment. Developers also removed the heating and cooling machinery, which is typically kept on office building roofs, to make open leisure space instead, complete with chairs and 360-degree views of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It has pretty spectacular views in every direction,” said Forgan, with a backdrop of the Marin Headlands, and the many hills of San Francisco, behind him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the downside, some apartments at Van Ness have fewer surface area for windows, so bedrooms use “borrowed light” from living spaces. Because the apartments are carved out of a vast open office floor, many of the apartments are long and deep, stretching from the window to the center elevators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a result, many apartments at 100 Van Ness have long, tunnel-like hallways with windows at the end. In one of the building’s one-bedroom units, a windowless bedroom in the middle of the layout has a semi-transparent wall to let in light from the living room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11954821\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11954821 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A large empty room with a glass sliding door and glass panels in one wall.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-14-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A sliding door and light panels allow light through to an interior bedroom in a converted apartment at 100 Van Ness in San Francisco on June 30, 2023. Built in 1974, the building was converted from office space to residential apartment units in 2012. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>When 100 Van Ness first opened to residents, units with windowless bedrooms were initially offered with significant discounts, but developers soon found that wasn’t necessary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Actually, the residents really like it because it’s very quiet,” said Forgan. “You’re away from the hustle and bustle. It can be a little darker, so if you’re sleeping there, it’s fine.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>It comes down to money\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Forgan’s firm wants to stay in this business of designing conversions of offices to housing. They see the value to downtown San Francisco, and the environment. Reusing an existing building has a smaller carbon footprint than knocking it down and starting from scratch.\u003cbr>\nSo why is this project one of only a handful of office-to-residential conversions in San Francisco?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Perhaps not surprisingly, it has largely to do with the high cost of housing development.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a very basic level, there’s the cost of new plumbing and electrical. You need pipes for new kitchens and bathrooms. Then, a lot of these buildings need a seismic upgrade. Forgan says the kind of housing that would recoup costs of a conversion would be at the higher end of the market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’ve got to buy the building and do everything to convert it. And by the time you add up those costs, the only thing that pencils [out] is more of a luxury product, especially with a building like this that has great views and a good location,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11954820\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11954820 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"People pass a sign on a city sidewalk advertising luxury apartments.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/230630-100-VAN-NESS-MHN-10-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People pass by the entrance to the 100 Van Ness building in San Francisco on June 30, 2023. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Housing developers like the Emerald Fund, which backed 100 Van Ness, say they’re interested in doing more office-to-housing conversions. The raw construction costs of converting offices could actually be done more cheaply than building a brand-new apartment tower, says Marc Babsin, president of the fund.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Babsin says they’ve looked at four office buildings to convert recently, but so far, no new project has made sense cost-wise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We continue to look. We think this is a great idea from a public policy perspective. We do need to save our downtowns and this is a great way to do that, to bring people onto the street,” said Babsin. “It’s a great way to produce housing that is currently not being produced.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Public policy experts at the San Francisco Bay Area Planning and Urban Research Association (SPUR) agree that the hefty costs of development can make such a project a nonstarter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sujata Srivastava, San Francisco director at SPUR, explained a few of the financial burdens that give housing developers pause:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>City fees that support public projects like child care programs and transportation, which can add up to millions of dollars.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Transfer and property taxes.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Reduced revenue potential, because San Francisco requires a certain number of units be affordable to lower-income tenants.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Construction costs, which are very expensive right now.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>“It doesn’t really make any financial sense to do conversions under the current costs that we have in San Francisco,” said Srivastava, adding that housing development is even less likely because rents are also down since before the pandemic. “The math just doesn’t really work.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A recent SPUR report suggests city lawmakers need to make major changes if they want to jump-start these conversions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco politicians have already made some changes, and are working on more. The Mayor’s Office and supervisors have relaxed rules about open space, sunlight and apartment sizes for some conversions. Elected city officials have proposed reducing affordable housing requirements and impact fees on all new housing developments, but not as low as developers want.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s all part of the city’s effort to jump-start more activity downtown and build more housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A solution for homelessness?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Since the pandemic emptied out office space in the Financial District, downtown streets look vacant; pedestrians experience windy sidewalks, empty restaurants and sparse foot traffic. Graham Luth was sitting on the sidewalk on 2nd Street near Montgomery Street one recent Friday morning, trying to get money to go to Colorado.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I got evicted, sort of,” said Luth about being temporarily without a home. “I got a job offer but I’m short on bus money.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When asked about this idea of sheltering people in empty office space downtown, Luth looked up at the tall buildings around him, and said, if no one’s using them, why not?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s a fantastic idea because there is a lot of space that is just … sitting there,” said Luth. “So I guess just being able to figure out who owns the spaces and if … they’re not gaining or losing, that the space can be used for a matter that would help support the whole community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, the city of San Francisco may have already found a different way to shelter people without housing: buying underused hotels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the things that happened during the pandemic that … really kind of changed the landscape around solving homelessness was this idea of using hotels,” said Jennifer Friedenbach, executive director of the Coalition on Homelessness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the pandemic, San Francisco and their partner organizations bought eight hotels and apartment buildings to provide permanent supportive housing to people who were formerly on the streets. It has created almost 1,000 new housing units for people without shelter. The city is in the process of acquiring two more buildings. \u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a result of San Francisco’s efforts, the unsheltered unhoused population has gone down 15% since 2020. That’s as homelessness in general has gone up around the state, according to the Public Policy Institute of California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Folks are getting housed,” said Friedenbach. “That has been really incredible.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco used state COVID-19 money through Project Homekey and a local tax on large corporations, known to San Francisco voters as Proposition C, to purchase and operate the buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We had unprecedented success during COVID,” said Shireen McSpadden, executive director of San Francisco’s Department of Homelessness and Supportive Housing, about their recent efforts to house unsheltered people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The success is due to the enormous resources that were made available to them through Project Homekey and local tax dollars, said McSpadden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It really showed what can happen when you can marshal resources,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Friedenbach says making housing out of hotel rooms is easier and cheaper because it already has living space infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of the tourist hotels have larger rooms. You can turn them into studio apartments and have small kitchens,” Friedenbach said. “There’s all these design things you can do that are really cool and you’ve already got the pipes, the electricity, the water.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With nationally owned hotels like the Hilton and Parc 55 abandoning their Union Square buildings, and the city’s recent track record of housing people in hotels, repurposing these newly abandoned buildings doesn’t seem like a wild idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for Judith Gottlieb’s question, it seems that vacant hotels may be a better option for housing unsheltered people. But those vacant offices in the city’s core could one day be high-end housing, especially if lawmakers take more steps to make conversions cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Did Mac Dre Really Go to Prison Because of His Lyrics?",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://bit.ly/3rbaumh\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode. \u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of the biggest stories in hip-hop right now is set to play out in a courtroom later this year, when \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/01/09/1147767380/rapper-young-thug-rico-trial-gunna\">Atlanta rapper Young Thug goes on trial\u003c/a> for gang-related activities. One of the key pieces of evidence cited in the indictment are his rap lyrics. [baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The phenomenon of rap songs being played in court dates back to the early ’90s, with an early example happening in the Bay Area during the trial of one of the region’s most famous rappers, Vallejo’s own Mac Dre.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s a lot of lore around what happened during Mac Dre’s trial, so as part of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/bayareahiphop\">That’s My Word\u003c/a>, KQED’s yearlong project on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/bayareahiphop\">Bay Area hip-hop history\u003c/a>, Bay Curious set out to discover what really happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A young career, derailed\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before Mac Dre helped pioneer the \u003ca href=\"https://www.complex.com/music/a/steven-j-horowitz/hyphy-oral-history\">hyphy\u003c/a> movement and put the Bay Area’s hip-hop scene on the national map, he was a rising young rapper. He was barely out of high school and already had several hits to his name, like 1991’s “California Livin’,” a progenitor to the sun-soaked G-funk of Tupac’s later hit “California Love.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQAJgOa2AlE\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in March 1992, that burgeoning career came to an abrupt halt. Mac Dre and two friends were arrested while they were driving back to Vallejo from a trip to Fresno. His friends were charged with attempted robbery and Dre was charged with conspiracy to rob a bank.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>No bank was robbed while they were in Fresno, but the police were surveilling the men through a wired informant, and they arrested Mac Dre for planning to rob a bank. He was ultimately found guilty and sentenced to five years in prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s been reported and widely circulated that the lyrics to his anti-police song, “Punk Police,” were used against him in court, and that the song helped convict him. But there’s a nagging contradiction at the heart of that belief. Namely, in the song “Punk Police,” Mac Dre says multiple times that he’s not a criminal. The song includes the lyrics, “I’m a dope rhyme dealer, not a money stealer.” So how could this song be connected to the conspiracy charge?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jhexDAzoEM\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The song’s impact before the trial\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>According to Wanda Salvatto, Mac Dre’s mother, to understand the role “Punk Police” played in Mac Dre’s trial, you need to go way back to the early ’80s when Mac Dre was a funny, optimistic kid who liked to rap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He kind of had the gift of gab. The gift of words and playing on words,” she said. “I’d say around 15, 16, 17, he always wrote rhymes and raps, and for Christmas that was stuff that he would ask for — a microphone, a keyboard.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While in high school, Dre made some friends who liked to rap from another part of Vallejo called the Country Club Crest, or the Crest for short. Dre grew up in an upper middle-class neighborhood in Vallejo, but the Crest, on the northern edge of the city, was in decline. Across the nation, technological advancements and the outsourcing of jobs overseas decimated manufacturing industries such as steel, auto and meat-packing. Lower-paying service industry jobs replaced manufacturing ones, and this had a profound economic effect on Black neighborhoods like the Crest. For many people, employment and steady income became precarious, paving the way for crime and gang violence to take root.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ray Luv, a rapper and close friend of Mac Dre’s at the time, remembers that period well, and living among the North Bay’s wealthy wine region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So you live in the ghetto in the middle of all of this wealth, but you don’t get to participate,” he said. “So drug dealing, prostitution, pimping, car thefts, jewelry store robberies, that became a thing. And most of the people that were doing it were in high school. They were kids, but they were kids that felt desperate. Felt hopeless. Felt like, ‘When I turn 18, what am I going to do?’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mac Dre’s friends started selling weed and crack cocaine to make money, and eventually Mac Dre got entangled in it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He would go there in the Crest and do it and come home,” Wanda remembered. “My whole thing was, ‘I’m going to work to provide, you know, there’s really no need for you to sell weed.’ Eventually, I understood he was doing it because of peer pressure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11954264\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/062723-Wanda-Salvatto-06-RT-KQED-e1687903909324.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11954264\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/062723-Wanda-Salvatto-06-RT-KQED-e1687903909324-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"Paper photographs of young Black men lay on a table. In the top photo a man is pictured seated, wearing a dark grey sweat suit and a black Oakland Raiders cap.\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/062723-Wanda-Salvatto-06-RT-KQED-e1687903909324-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/062723-Wanda-Salvatto-06-RT-KQED-e1687903909324-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/062723-Wanda-Salvatto-06-RT-KQED-e1687903909324-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/062723-Wanda-Salvatto-06-RT-KQED-e1687903909324-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/062723-Wanda-Salvatto-06-RT-KQED-e1687903909324.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Family photos of Mac Dre belonging to his mother, Wanda Salvatto, laid out on a table in Vallejo on Monday, June 26, 2023. \u003ccite>(Raphaël Timmons/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Dre got arrested and ended serving time in juvenile hall while he was still in high school. When he got out, he doubled down on his music. But now that he’d been in the system, he was being stopped and interrogated by the police more often.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They were watching and harassing him, and it was just constant,” Wanda remembered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fed up with how the police were treating him, Mac Dre decided to use his music to air out his frustrations. In 1992, he released the song “Punk Police” detailing his relationship with the police at that time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“Stop — I can’t take no mo’\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>Why is the police steady knocking at my do’?\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>24/7, the devils be trippin’\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>They say some banks was robbed and I fit the description\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>But that’s drama, so save it for your mama\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>I’m not criminal minded, punk police, I’m a\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>Dope rhyme dealer, not a money stealer”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It might seem prescient that Mac Dre was rapping about being accused of robbing a bank before he actually faced charges. But what Mac Dre is referring to in the song is a spate of unsolved bank robberies that had been taking place in and around Vallejo. The police were suspicious of an alleged gang they called the Romper Room, which was the name Mac Dre and his friends gave themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Romper Room crew is a circle of friends,” said Ray Luv. He says they got the name from a children’s show that ran on public television. “It was really about friendship and loyalty. The Romper Room were the first real supporters of Mac Dre.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in the eyes of the police, the Romper Room was not a crew of friends but a gang of criminals, and they routinely stopped them and conducted raids where they lived. So, at 21 years old, Mac Dre released “Punk Police” in response to what he saw as unwarranted harassment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Professor and hip-hop historian Davey D remembers when the song came out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID='arts_13923938']“Everybody loved it. It was our version of ‘F*** the Police.’ Knowing what the police were doing in Vallejo and going up to the Crest, I think most people could relate to it,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wanda, however, remembers the backlash.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My youngest son, who was 11 years [younger than Dre], he’d be outside playing or we’d be in the garage doing whatever and police would just be cruising through, just to let us know, they’re watching,” she said. “Before the song came out, police didn’t come in this neighborhood. There was really no reason to. But because of that, that’s when the real harassment really started.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The trial of Mac Dre\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The same year that the song was released, Mac Dre was arrested for conspiracy to rob a bank in Fresno. The trial lasted one week, and according to court transcripts, “Punk Police” was played, but it was not central to the prosecution’s case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I spoke to one of the prosecuting attorneys and he confirmed that their case hinged on two main pieces of evidence: an audio recording from the informant, in which Mac Dre can be heard saying “shoot out the surveillance cameras,” and a gun that was found during a raid on Mac Dre’s apartment several months prior. They were able to trace the bullets of the gun to one of the prior unsolved bank robberies in Vallejo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mac Dre’s lawyer countered that most of the audio recording was hard to hear and that the clip of Mac Dre was taken out of context — it could have been a rap or a joke. (In his 2022 autobiography, J. Diggs, one of Mac Dre’s co-defendants, says that Dre was making a joke.) As for the gun, Mac Dre’s lawyer pointed out that the weapon was not registered in his name nor did it have Mac Dre’s fingerprints on it, emphasizing that it could belong to anybody as multiple people were sleeping at Mac Dre’s apartment at the time of the raid. [emailsignup newslettername=\"baycurious\" align=\"right\"]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Punk Police” made a brief appearance in the trial. According to court transcripts, the prosecution played the song to establish that the police were not retaliating against Mac Dre because of it. One of the prosecutors called a detective to the stand and asked, “Was there and is there a campaign against Mr. Andre Hicks to prosecute him because of this song?” The detective responded, “No,” after which the prosecutor concluded his questioning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After less than a day of deliberation, the jury came back with a guilty verdict.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We were devastated,” Wanda said. “Andre didn’t rob any banks. We thought, you know, it would all work out. But it didn’t.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ray Luv wasn’t convinced by the evidence used against Dre.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think in most cases that probably would not stick. If he was a white kid from Mill Valley, Marin County, he would not have gone to prison on that evidence,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite the detective’s testimony at the trial, to those connected to the case and who saw it play out in real time, the connection between “Punk Police” and Mac Dre’s conviction is obvious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To this day, I will say that it was a clapback to the ‘Punk Police’ song,” said Davey D. “It’s kind of like, ‘Okay. We’ll find something on you. You’re going to slip up and we’re going to be there to catch you.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11954280\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Mac-Dre-1996.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11954280\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Mac-Dre-1996-800x540.jpg\" alt=\"Interior of a recording studio, with 3 men standing side by side in the midfield. One man sits in the foreground with his back to the camera.\" width=\"800\" height=\"540\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Mac-Dre-1996-800x540.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Mac-Dre-1996-1020x688.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Mac-Dre-1996-160x108.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Mac-Dre-1996.jpg 1199w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mac Dre (standing center) in the studio with some friends after being released from prison in 1996. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Wanda Salvatto)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Dre’s legacy and rap lyrics on trial\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Mac Dre was released from prison in 1996 after serving four years of his five-year sentence. He hit the ground running and was more prolific in making music than ever, releasing 10 albums in less than 10 years. He introduced a style of party music, known as hyphy, that would become synonymous with the Bay Area and gain popularity across the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then in 2004, while performing in Kansas City, he was \u003ca href=\"https://www.passionweiss.com/2021/05/11/who-killed-mac-dre/#:~:text=According%20to%20his%20story%2C%20Whitmill,and%20driving%20the%20black%20Infiniti.\">killed in a drive-by shooting\u003c/a>. The details around his death have remained murky, with various unofficial reports from media outlets pointing to different suspects. The official police investigation, however, came up empty, and no one was ever charged for his murder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While his lyrics may not have convicted him, Mac Dre’s case was one of the first to introduce rap lyrics during criminal proceedings. His case contributed to the antagonistic relationship that exists between hip-hop and the criminal justice system — one where art, most often the art of Black men, can be taken as an admission of guilt. (Just a few years after Mac Dre’s trial, Sacramento rappers \u003ca href=\"http://www.kqed.org/bayareahiphop/timeline#c-bo-jailed-for-his-lyrics\">C-Bo\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"http://www.kqed.org/bayareahiphop/timeline#x-raided-sent-to-prison-after-his-lyrics-are-used-as-evidence-in-trial\">X-Raided\u003c/a> were both put behind bars after their lyrics were introduced as evidence in court.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Charis Kubrin, a criminologist and UC Irvine professor, says the reason that the use of rap lyrics in trials is so concerning is because they could be used to exploit existing racial biases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What’s happening in the minds of jurors, we think, are that folks are saying, ‘gosh, if someone could write these kinds of lyrics, they could do these kinds of crimes,’” she said. “Now, nobody thinks that with other music genres, or nobody’s thinking Quentin Tarantino is doing that with his violent films. But when it comes to rap music, it’s much easier to make that leap. And that’s because of stereotypes and biases that we have about young men of color who are primarily making the music.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are signs of change, however. In 2022, California lawmakers passed \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MuXzJx8T-A&ab_channel=CaliforniaGovernorGavinNewsom\">AB 2799\u003c/a>, becoming the first state to prohibit the use of rap lyrics in criminal trials. Kubrin says it’s a good first step, but more can be done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for Mac Dre, even in his absence his legacy continues to grow. Every year, on July 5, people come together to celebrate his birthday, “Mac Dre Day,” in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVR_kYZiPps\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His old friend Ray Luv is currently the Chief Operating Officer of Thizz Entertainment, the label that Mac Dre founded to distribute his music, and he helps organize the yearly Mac Dre Day celebrations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In the beginning, when his career was taking off, he was sent to jail,” Ray Luv said. “Then he came home from jail and when his career starts taking off, he ended up getting killed. That’s a part of why I think we all toast him so much. The guy never really did too much wrong for what he received from this world. He was a good guy.”\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://bit.ly/3rbaumh\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode. \u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of the biggest stories in hip-hop right now is set to play out in a courtroom later this year, when \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/01/09/1147767380/rapper-young-thug-rico-trial-gunna\">Atlanta rapper Young Thug goes on trial\u003c/a> for gang-related activities. One of the key pieces of evidence cited in the indictment are his rap lyrics. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The phenomenon of rap songs being played in court dates back to the early ’90s, with an early example happening in the Bay Area during the trial of one of the region’s most famous rappers, Vallejo’s own Mac Dre.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s a lot of lore around what happened during Mac Dre’s trial, so as part of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/bayareahiphop\">That’s My Word\u003c/a>, KQED’s yearlong project on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/bayareahiphop\">Bay Area hip-hop history\u003c/a>, Bay Curious set out to discover what really happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A young career, derailed\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before Mac Dre helped pioneer the \u003ca href=\"https://www.complex.com/music/a/steven-j-horowitz/hyphy-oral-history\">hyphy\u003c/a> movement and put the Bay Area’s hip-hop scene on the national map, he was a rising young rapper. He was barely out of high school and already had several hits to his name, like 1991’s “California Livin’,” a progenitor to the sun-soaked G-funk of Tupac’s later hit “California Love.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/hQAJgOa2AlE'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/hQAJgOa2AlE'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>But in March 1992, that burgeoning career came to an abrupt halt. Mac Dre and two friends were arrested while they were driving back to Vallejo from a trip to Fresno. His friends were charged with attempted robbery and Dre was charged with conspiracy to rob a bank.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>No bank was robbed while they were in Fresno, but the police were surveilling the men through a wired informant, and they arrested Mac Dre for planning to rob a bank. He was ultimately found guilty and sentenced to five years in prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s been reported and widely circulated that the lyrics to his anti-police song, “Punk Police,” were used against him in court, and that the song helped convict him. But there’s a nagging contradiction at the heart of that belief. Namely, in the song “Punk Police,” Mac Dre says multiple times that he’s not a criminal. The song includes the lyrics, “I’m a dope rhyme dealer, not a money stealer.” So how could this song be connected to the conspiracy charge?\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/_jhexDAzoEM'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/_jhexDAzoEM'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003ch2>The song’s impact before the trial\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>According to Wanda Salvatto, Mac Dre’s mother, to understand the role “Punk Police” played in Mac Dre’s trial, you need to go way back to the early ’80s when Mac Dre was a funny, optimistic kid who liked to rap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He kind of had the gift of gab. The gift of words and playing on words,” she said. “I’d say around 15, 16, 17, he always wrote rhymes and raps, and for Christmas that was stuff that he would ask for — a microphone, a keyboard.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While in high school, Dre made some friends who liked to rap from another part of Vallejo called the Country Club Crest, or the Crest for short. Dre grew up in an upper middle-class neighborhood in Vallejo, but the Crest, on the northern edge of the city, was in decline. Across the nation, technological advancements and the outsourcing of jobs overseas decimated manufacturing industries such as steel, auto and meat-packing. Lower-paying service industry jobs replaced manufacturing ones, and this had a profound economic effect on Black neighborhoods like the Crest. For many people, employment and steady income became precarious, paving the way for crime and gang violence to take root.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ray Luv, a rapper and close friend of Mac Dre’s at the time, remembers that period well, and living among the North Bay’s wealthy wine region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So you live in the ghetto in the middle of all of this wealth, but you don’t get to participate,” he said. “So drug dealing, prostitution, pimping, car thefts, jewelry store robberies, that became a thing. And most of the people that were doing it were in high school. They were kids, but they were kids that felt desperate. Felt hopeless. Felt like, ‘When I turn 18, what am I going to do?’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mac Dre’s friends started selling weed and crack cocaine to make money, and eventually Mac Dre got entangled in it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He would go there in the Crest and do it and come home,” Wanda remembered. “My whole thing was, ‘I’m going to work to provide, you know, there’s really no need for you to sell weed.’ Eventually, I understood he was doing it because of peer pressure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11954264\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/062723-Wanda-Salvatto-06-RT-KQED-e1687903909324.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11954264\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/062723-Wanda-Salvatto-06-RT-KQED-e1687903909324-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"Paper photographs of young Black men lay on a table. In the top photo a man is pictured seated, wearing a dark grey sweat suit and a black Oakland Raiders cap.\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/062723-Wanda-Salvatto-06-RT-KQED-e1687903909324-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/062723-Wanda-Salvatto-06-RT-KQED-e1687903909324-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/062723-Wanda-Salvatto-06-RT-KQED-e1687903909324-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/062723-Wanda-Salvatto-06-RT-KQED-e1687903909324-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/062723-Wanda-Salvatto-06-RT-KQED-e1687903909324.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Family photos of Mac Dre belonging to his mother, Wanda Salvatto, laid out on a table in Vallejo on Monday, June 26, 2023. \u003ccite>(Raphaël Timmons/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Dre got arrested and ended serving time in juvenile hall while he was still in high school. When he got out, he doubled down on his music. But now that he’d been in the system, he was being stopped and interrogated by the police more often.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They were watching and harassing him, and it was just constant,” Wanda remembered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fed up with how the police were treating him, Mac Dre decided to use his music to air out his frustrations. In 1992, he released the song “Punk Police” detailing his relationship with the police at that time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“Stop — I can’t take no mo’\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>Why is the police steady knocking at my do’?\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>24/7, the devils be trippin’\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>They say some banks was robbed and I fit the description\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>But that’s drama, so save it for your mama\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>I’m not criminal minded, punk police, I’m a\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>Dope rhyme dealer, not a money stealer”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It might seem prescient that Mac Dre was rapping about being accused of robbing a bank before he actually faced charges. But what Mac Dre is referring to in the song is a spate of unsolved bank robberies that had been taking place in and around Vallejo. The police were suspicious of an alleged gang they called the Romper Room, which was the name Mac Dre and his friends gave themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Romper Room crew is a circle of friends,” said Ray Luv. He says they got the name from a children’s show that ran on public television. “It was really about friendship and loyalty. The Romper Room were the first real supporters of Mac Dre.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in the eyes of the police, the Romper Room was not a crew of friends but a gang of criminals, and they routinely stopped them and conducted raids where they lived. So, at 21 years old, Mac Dre released “Punk Police” in response to what he saw as unwarranted harassment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Professor and hip-hop historian Davey D remembers when the song came out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“Everybody loved it. It was our version of ‘F*** the Police.’ Knowing what the police were doing in Vallejo and going up to the Crest, I think most people could relate to it,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wanda, however, remembers the backlash.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My youngest son, who was 11 years [younger than Dre], he’d be outside playing or we’d be in the garage doing whatever and police would just be cruising through, just to let us know, they’re watching,” she said. “Before the song came out, police didn’t come in this neighborhood. There was really no reason to. But because of that, that’s when the real harassment really started.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The trial of Mac Dre\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The same year that the song was released, Mac Dre was arrested for conspiracy to rob a bank in Fresno. The trial lasted one week, and according to court transcripts, “Punk Police” was played, but it was not central to the prosecution’s case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I spoke to one of the prosecuting attorneys and he confirmed that their case hinged on two main pieces of evidence: an audio recording from the informant, in which Mac Dre can be heard saying “shoot out the surveillance cameras,” and a gun that was found during a raid on Mac Dre’s apartment several months prior. They were able to trace the bullets of the gun to one of the prior unsolved bank robberies in Vallejo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mac Dre’s lawyer countered that most of the audio recording was hard to hear and that the clip of Mac Dre was taken out of context — it could have been a rap or a joke. (In his 2022 autobiography, J. Diggs, one of Mac Dre’s co-defendants, says that Dre was making a joke.) As for the gun, Mac Dre’s lawyer pointed out that the weapon was not registered in his name nor did it have Mac Dre’s fingerprints on it, emphasizing that it could belong to anybody as multiple people were sleeping at Mac Dre’s apartment at the time of the raid. \u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Punk Police” made a brief appearance in the trial. According to court transcripts, the prosecution played the song to establish that the police were not retaliating against Mac Dre because of it. One of the prosecutors called a detective to the stand and asked, “Was there and is there a campaign against Mr. Andre Hicks to prosecute him because of this song?” The detective responded, “No,” after which the prosecutor concluded his questioning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After less than a day of deliberation, the jury came back with a guilty verdict.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We were devastated,” Wanda said. “Andre didn’t rob any banks. We thought, you know, it would all work out. But it didn’t.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ray Luv wasn’t convinced by the evidence used against Dre.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think in most cases that probably would not stick. If he was a white kid from Mill Valley, Marin County, he would not have gone to prison on that evidence,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite the detective’s testimony at the trial, to those connected to the case and who saw it play out in real time, the connection between “Punk Police” and Mac Dre’s conviction is obvious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To this day, I will say that it was a clapback to the ‘Punk Police’ song,” said Davey D. “It’s kind of like, ‘Okay. We’ll find something on you. You’re going to slip up and we’re going to be there to catch you.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11954280\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Mac-Dre-1996.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11954280\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Mac-Dre-1996-800x540.jpg\" alt=\"Interior of a recording studio, with 3 men standing side by side in the midfield. One man sits in the foreground with his back to the camera.\" width=\"800\" height=\"540\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Mac-Dre-1996-800x540.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Mac-Dre-1996-1020x688.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Mac-Dre-1996-160x108.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Mac-Dre-1996.jpg 1199w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mac Dre (standing center) in the studio with some friends after being released from prison in 1996. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Wanda Salvatto)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Dre’s legacy and rap lyrics on trial\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Mac Dre was released from prison in 1996 after serving four years of his five-year sentence. He hit the ground running and was more prolific in making music than ever, releasing 10 albums in less than 10 years. He introduced a style of party music, known as hyphy, that would become synonymous with the Bay Area and gain popularity across the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then in 2004, while performing in Kansas City, he was \u003ca href=\"https://www.passionweiss.com/2021/05/11/who-killed-mac-dre/#:~:text=According%20to%20his%20story%2C%20Whitmill,and%20driving%20the%20black%20Infiniti.\">killed in a drive-by shooting\u003c/a>. The details around his death have remained murky, with various unofficial reports from media outlets pointing to different suspects. The official police investigation, however, came up empty, and no one was ever charged for his murder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While his lyrics may not have convicted him, Mac Dre’s case was one of the first to introduce rap lyrics during criminal proceedings. His case contributed to the antagonistic relationship that exists between hip-hop and the criminal justice system — one where art, most often the art of Black men, can be taken as an admission of guilt. (Just a few years after Mac Dre’s trial, Sacramento rappers \u003ca href=\"http://www.kqed.org/bayareahiphop/timeline#c-bo-jailed-for-his-lyrics\">C-Bo\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"http://www.kqed.org/bayareahiphop/timeline#x-raided-sent-to-prison-after-his-lyrics-are-used-as-evidence-in-trial\">X-Raided\u003c/a> were both put behind bars after their lyrics were introduced as evidence in court.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Charis Kubrin, a criminologist and UC Irvine professor, says the reason that the use of rap lyrics in trials is so concerning is because they could be used to exploit existing racial biases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What’s happening in the minds of jurors, we think, are that folks are saying, ‘gosh, if someone could write these kinds of lyrics, they could do these kinds of crimes,’” she said. “Now, nobody thinks that with other music genres, or nobody’s thinking Quentin Tarantino is doing that with his violent films. But when it comes to rap music, it’s much easier to make that leap. And that’s because of stereotypes and biases that we have about young men of color who are primarily making the music.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are signs of change, however. In 2022, California lawmakers passed \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MuXzJx8T-A&ab_channel=CaliforniaGovernorGavinNewsom\">AB 2799\u003c/a>, becoming the first state to prohibit the use of rap lyrics in criminal trials. Kubrin says it’s a good first step, but more can be done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for Mac Dre, even in his absence his legacy continues to grow. Every year, on July 5, people come together to celebrate his birthday, “Mac Dre Day,” in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/NVR_kYZiPps'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/NVR_kYZiPps'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>His old friend Ray Luv is currently the Chief Operating Officer of Thizz Entertainment, the label that Mac Dre founded to distribute his music, and he helps organize the yearly Mac Dre Day celebrations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In the beginning, when his career was taking off, he was sent to jail,” Ray Luv said. “Then he came home from jail and when his career starts taking off, he ended up getting killed. That’s a part of why I think we all toast him so much. The guy never really did too much wrong for what he received from this world. He was a good guy.”\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>Read the transcript for this episode \u003ca href=\"https://bit.ly/463TPB8\">here.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In May, Bay Curious published the book \u003cem>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/baycuriousbook\">Bay Curious: Exploring the Hidden True Stories of the San Francisco Bay Area\u003c/a>\u003c/em>. It brings a fresh eye to some of our most popular pieces and covers brand-new, never-before-heard stories researched for the book.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To celebrate, we hosted an \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC0Qa1zJmrM&t=1505s\">epic variety show at KQED’s headquarters\u003c/a>. Host Olivia Allen-Price also went on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum-podcasts\">KQED Forum\u003c/a> to talk about how Bay Curious got its start and what’s in the new book. Perhaps most fun of all, we played trivia with call-in guests on the show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We had so much fun taping this segment that we really wanted to share it with you. So this week on Bay Curious, we’re sharing a condensed version of that KQED Forum program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you enjoy the conversation, check out the \u003ca href=\"https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/kqeds-forum/id73329719\">KQED Forum podcast feed\u003c/a> for lots of fascinating, relevant conversations about the Bay Area and beyond. Olivia was also recently on the podcast \u003ca href=\"https://eastbayyesterday.com/\">East Bay Yesterday\u003c/a> focusing on some of the East Bay stories in the book. You can find that over on the \u003ca href=\"https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/east-bay-yesterday/id1158506231\">East Bay Yesterday podcast feed\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>Read the transcript for this episode \u003ca href=\"https://bit.ly/463TPB8\">here.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In May, Bay Curious published the book \u003cem>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/baycuriousbook\">Bay Curious: Exploring the Hidden True Stories of the San Francisco Bay Area\u003c/a>\u003c/em>. It brings a fresh eye to some of our most popular pieces and covers brand-new, never-before-heard stories researched for the book.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To celebrate, we hosted an \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC0Qa1zJmrM&t=1505s\">epic variety show at KQED’s headquarters\u003c/a>. Host Olivia Allen-Price also went on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum-podcasts\">KQED Forum\u003c/a> to talk about how Bay Curious got its start and what’s in the new book. Perhaps most fun of all, we played trivia with call-in guests on the show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We had so much fun taping this segment that we really wanted to share it with you. So this week on Bay Curious, we’re sharing a condensed version of that KQED Forum program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you enjoy the conversation, check out the \u003ca href=\"https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/kqeds-forum/id73329719\">KQED Forum podcast feed\u003c/a> for lots of fascinating, relevant conversations about the Bay Area and beyond. Olivia was also recently on the podcast \u003ca href=\"https://eastbayyesterday.com/\">East Bay Yesterday\u003c/a> focusing on some of the East Bay stories in the book. You can find that over on the \u003ca href=\"https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/east-bay-yesterday/id1158506231\">East Bay Yesterday podcast feed\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Why Can't You Get That Camping Spot?",
"headTitle": "Why Can’t You Get That Camping Spot? | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Update, June 9, 2023:\u003c/strong> If you’ve ever tried to grab a spot at one of the state’s more popular campgrounds, you’ve probably experienced that frustrating moment: You log in at the exact minute reservations are opened and … everything’s already booked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s such a common experience that our original Bay Curious story from 2017 (below) about the possible use of bots to snag coveted campsites still attracts questions. So we went back to park officials to find out: Are bots still a problem in 2023?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California State Parks information officer Jorge Moreno says, not anymore. They were an issue back in 2017, after the state parks moved to a third-party online reservation system called \u003ca href=\"https://reservecalifornia.com/Web/\">Reserve California\u003c/a>. Campers complained about bots snapping up spots faster than a human could click a button. That’s why in 2019 Reserve America, the parent company, added a captcha and verification step to the process, said Moreno. In 2021, to be sure the new methods were effective, they did an analysis of the reservation IPs and time stamps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was determined that automated bots were no longer an issue,” he said. Additionally, any account caught using bots or reselling reservations will be banned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So why are all the campsites already full the second they open up for reservations? “Demand is greater than inventory,” Moreno said. For some of the most popular spots — like the cabins at Steep Ravine in Mount Tamalpais State Park — there might be 100 people logging on for one of eight cabins. “It’s really like a lottery.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Original story, May 11, 2017: \u003c/strong>Abigail Johnston and Steve Fotter have been taking the same vacation for decades. For a week, twice a year, they pack up their car with sleeping bags, books and bug spray and drive an hour to Steep Ravine at Mount Tamalpais State Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nestled along the coast of Marin County, down beneath the cliffs of the Pacific, they make their way to one of 10 primitive wooden cabins. There’s no electricity or running water, but luxury is not why people visit Steep Ravine. They go for the sweeping views of the ocean and a secluded beach a few steps away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450574\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11450574\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-800x609.jpeg\" alt=\"Abigail Johnston inside the Steep Ravine cabins when they first opened to the public.\" width=\"800\" height=\"609\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-800x609.jpeg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-160x122.jpeg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-1020x776.jpeg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-960x731.jpeg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-240x183.jpeg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-375x285.jpeg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-520x396.jpeg 520w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680.jpeg 1147w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Abigail Johnston inside the Steep Ravine cabins when they first opened to the public. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Abigail Johnston)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For Abigail and Steve, this state park is heaven on earth — a sanctuary they’ve been visiting since the cabins opened to the public in 1984. But it’s gotten tough to get a spot. Almost impossible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the registration window opens at 8 a.m. most cabins are booked by 8:01 a.m. Abigail and Steve have been trying to book a cabin for a year now, with no success.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Are others beating them through the reservation system? Or are they falling short because they’re competing against something not quite human: bots?\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450646\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 500px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-image-11450646 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/380315703_a3c9f96a13_z.jpg\" alt=\"The Steep Ravine cabins\" width=\"500\" height=\"375\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/380315703_a3c9f96a13_z.jpg 500w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/380315703_a3c9f96a13_z-160x120.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/380315703_a3c9f96a13_z-240x180.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/380315703_a3c9f96a13_z-375x281.jpg 375w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 500px) 100vw, 500px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Steep Ravine cabins \u003ccite>(Bill Bo Braasch/flickr)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Bots\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Bots are software that can automatically perform routine tasks on the internet. You’ve probably used a bot online and not even realized it, like when you search the web or look for cheap flights on sites like Kayak or Expedia, instead of having to check each airline yourself,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The bots go and pull all that information into one helpful place. But bots can also be used nefariously, such as \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/2016/01/hacker-lexicon-what-are-dos-and-ddos-attacks/\">taking down a website\u003c/a> by overwhelming its servers and making it impossible for legitimate users to access the system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I was unable to confirm if bots are reserving campsites, but they are certainly active on ReserveAmerica’s website.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450604\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 250px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-image-11450604\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-160x123.jpg\" alt=\"A computer screen is filled with code.\" width=\"250\" height=\"191\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-160x123.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-800x613.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-1020x781.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-960x735.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-240x184.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-375x287.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-520x398.jpg 520w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1.jpg 1024w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 250px) 100vw, 250px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A computer screen filled with code. \u003ccite>(Joe Raedle/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Scraping for availability\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Chris Streeter is a software engineer living in San Francisco. He wanted a campsite for Easter weekend at another popular park, \u003ca href=\"http://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=540\">Big Basin Redwoods State Park\u003c/a>. The place was 100 percent booked, but he kept checking the ReserveAmerica website for cancellations — a common strategy for snagging a last-minute spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It involves going to reserveamerica.com, checking to see if there’s a site available. There’s not, so you have to keep coming back super often. I decided to automate the process,” says Streeter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He built a bot that looks for cancellations on ReserveAmerica.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Every 15 minutes [the bot] just checks. And if there’s a site, it posts a little notification in my Mac that says, ‘Hey, there’s a site available,’” says Streeter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This bot is not the only one of its kind. There’s a bot for Yosemite, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The code for the Yosemite bot is posted on GitHub, a code-sharing website. Anyone who finds the code and understands it can use it. It was written by Brian Hansen, another computer engineer based in San Francisco. Hansen is a rock climber and, like most climbers, he sees Yosemite as a mecca.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450576\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-image-11450576 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-800x534.jpg\" alt=\"Yosemite National Park\" width=\"800\" height=\"534\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-800x534.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-160x107.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-960x640.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-240x160.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-375x250.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-520x347.jpg 520w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090.jpg 1024w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Yosemite National Park \u003ccite>(Brendan Smialowski/AFP/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Most climbers I know will set alarms early on May 15th,” wrote Hansen via email. “I personally prefer more spontaneous trips, and was told that my only recourse was to refresh the \u003ca href=\"http://recreation.gov\">recreation.gov\u003c/a> website repeatedly until a campsite opened up due to cancellation.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Hansen’s GitHub stats, people have been copying the bot.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Is it legal?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/3183/all-info\">Better Online Ticket Sales Act\u003c/a> (also called the BOTS Act) targets bots used for ticket scalping at events over a certain size, so the non-commercial personal-use bots built by Streeter and Hansen don’t qualify. Specialists in internet law say that these bots fall into a legal gray area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The bots do violate the website contractors’ \u003ca href=\"http://www.activenetwork.com/information/terms-of-use\">terms of use,\u003c/a> which prohibit the use of robots, bots and scraping. However, in similar cases the terms of use were not found to be legally binding unless agreement to the terms of use was\u003ca href=\"https://h2o.law.harvard.edu/cases/4518\"> prominently displayed\u003c/a> in a location where the users could not miss them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Jeffrey Rosenfeld of KR Internet Law, “If users click to check a box saying they’ve read and agree to the terms and conditions, that would be considered legally binding.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even if it is legally binding, most prosecutors will only go after people who are trying to make money or steal business from the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Unless you’re going to try to commercialize the website’s content, most businesses and website operators won’t care what you do,” says Rosenfeld.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When people do try to commercialize campsites, California State Parks has been quick to shut them down and threaten legal action under the \u003ca href=\"http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-537.html\">California Penal Code\u003c/a>. The last vendor the Parks shut down was called “Adventure Man.” Some vendors make big promises to get customers reservations at the most difficult campgrounds, but California State Parks representatives didn’t know if they used bots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450577\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-image-11450577 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-800x534.jpg\" alt=\"Diamond Valley Lake, near Hemet, California. \" width=\"800\" height=\"534\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-800x534.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-160x107.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-960x640.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-240x160.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-375x250.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-520x347.jpg 520w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708.jpg 1024w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Diamond Valley Lake near Hemet, California. \u003ccite>(David McNew/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Andrea Matwyshyn specializes in technology and innovation policy at Northeastern University. She says Streeter’s and Hansen’s bots could also fall under unauthorized access, but that “in the 9th Circuit, it’s unlikely that this case would be pursued by prosecutors.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hansen has considered that his bot is in a legal gray area, but isn’t worried about prosecution because “it’s such a small project, but [the questionable legality] is why I haven’t made a real website out of this or pursued developing third-party reservation optimization much further,” Hansen wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Is it fair?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Some might say that Streeter and Hansen are problem-solving in an innovative way. Their bots create more free time and could potentially be the start of businesses that create jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Others feel differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s a fairness question. … It’s an act of creating technology haves and technology have nots,” Matwyshyn says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450578\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-image-11450578 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-800x534.jpg\" alt=\"A park ranger directs hikers in Yosemite National Park.\" width=\"800\" height=\"534\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-800x534.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-160x107.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-960x640.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-240x160.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-375x250.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-520x347.jpg 520w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660.jpg 1024w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A park ranger directs hikers in Yosemite National Park. \u003ccite>(Brendan Smialowski/AFP/Getty Image)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Streeter has thought about fairness. He says he could automate the whole process and have a bot that completes his booking for him. He says that program might exist, but he hasn’t built it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I look at it as, I’m not doing anything a human couldn’t do. It’s the same thing as setting an alarm on your phone every 15 minutes,” Streeter says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If he made a faster or more advanced bot, no human could compete with it. And faster, more advanced bots have been built in similar contexts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2013, students at New York’s Baruch College created bots to get \u003ca href=\"http://college.usatoday.com/2013/02/07/opinion-smart-student-hackers-should-be-celebrated-not-punished/\">better registration times for classes\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The student body was very divided over whether they thought the students were cheating or if they were simply using their skills in an innovative way,” says Matwyshyn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bots have been used to gain advantage in the Bay Area restaurant scene, too. Tables at San Francisco restaurant State Bird Provisions have been \u003ca href=\"https://sf.eater.com/2013/7/25/6396753/techies-are-hacking-state-bird-reservations-updated\">a big target for bots\u003c/a>. One company, TableSweep, even scrapes OpenTable for cancellations at top restaurants and charges customers $5 for every successfully booked reservation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450651\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 640px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11450651\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z.jpg\" alt=\"Chef's counter seating at State Bird Provisions on July 27, 2013\" width=\"640\" height=\"427\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z.jpg 640w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z-160x107.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z-240x160.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z-375x250.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z-520x347.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 640px) 100vw, 640px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Chef’s counter seating at State Bird Provisions on July 27, 2013. \u003ccite>(City Foodsters/flickr)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Matwyshyn believes there needs to be space for innovation, but if not everyone has the same access to technology, it raises a lot of questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s a debate that we need to have as a society. And these questions of scraping data and aggregating and reusing [data] are our very entry point to those questions that are going to show up on steroids in the next 10 to 20 years,” says Matwyshyn.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Can we stop it?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The contractor running \u003ca href=\"https://www.reserveamerica.com/welcome.do\">reserveamerica.com\u003c/a> would not return emails or calls requesting comment. But because they work for California State Parks, they did respond to Brian Ketterer, its southern field division chief.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They said they have software that screens for bots. They were not aware of any infiltration into our reservation system,” says Ketterer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A typical bot prevention measure might include adding a CAPTCHA (that’s the “Completely Automated Public Turing test to tell Computers and Humans Apart”), but programmers have gotten around it by hiring real people to fill them out. Artificial intelligence can also be trained to fill out a CAPTCHA.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another preventative measure could be two-step authentication. That’s when a website texts you a number that you must type into the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The parks could also move away from online reservations and back to booking things over the phone. Award-winning Berkeley restaurant Chez Panisse said they’ve never noticed a bot problem and attribute it to the fact that most reservations are completed by phone. Paying for more man-hours could be costly, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450624\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11450624\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"Big Sur State Park\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut.jpg 1920w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-1180x885.jpg 1180w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-960x720.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-240x180.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-375x281.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-520x390.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Big Sur State Park \u003ccite>(Rachael Myrow/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>This could also be tackled from the supply side. After all, these bots were a response to a scarce resource.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Increasing the supply\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“There are only 459 campsites in Yosemite Valley and over 4 million people visit the park each year,” says Yosemite ranger and representative Jamie Richards. “We are fully booked the entire summer and beyond.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The California State Parks system isn’t much better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The real story here is a lack of inventory,” says Ketterer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Almost 40 million people live in California and over 200 million visit the state as tourists each year. According to Ketterer, there are about 14,600 campsites and accommodations available by reservation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And if you look at those numbers, it’s not in your favor. It’s like playing the lottery” he says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has seen the number of reservations steadily increasing. In just the past year, reservations were up by 9 percent, says Ketterer, and parks can’t keep up with growing demand. They don’t have the budget to open and maintain new campsites.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousbug]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It should also be noted that not all campgrounds are equally popular. According to Ketterer, coastal campsites with accommodations are the most difficult to snag. Even without bots, there is fierce competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’ve heard from people who have businesses using the employees in the office to sit by their computers and sit by their phones and try to get that reservation,” he says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even Ketterer has trouble getting a spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I have yet to visit Crystal Cove State Park as a visitor and I would love to do that. I’ve also tried for Big Sur and I have yet to get into there. And I’ve tried for about five years.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Have you heard of people using bots to get campsites? Have you heard of people using bots for other popular events or items? Send us an email at baycurious@kqed.org.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Correction: An earlier version of this story misstated when the reservation window opens for the Steep Ravine cabins. It’s on the first of each month.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"excerpt": "Some people used to use bots to snag campsites at state and national parks. Is it still a problem?\r\n",
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"description": "Some people used to use bots to snag campsites at state and national parks. Is it still a problem?\r\n",
"title": "Why Can't You Get That Camping Spot? | KQED",
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"headline": "Why Can't You Get That Camping Spot?",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Update, June 9, 2023:\u003c/strong> If you’ve ever tried to grab a spot at one of the state’s more popular campgrounds, you’ve probably experienced that frustrating moment: You log in at the exact minute reservations are opened and … everything’s already booked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s such a common experience that our original Bay Curious story from 2017 (below) about the possible use of bots to snag coveted campsites still attracts questions. So we went back to park officials to find out: Are bots still a problem in 2023?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California State Parks information officer Jorge Moreno says, not anymore. They were an issue back in 2017, after the state parks moved to a third-party online reservation system called \u003ca href=\"https://reservecalifornia.com/Web/\">Reserve California\u003c/a>. Campers complained about bots snapping up spots faster than a human could click a button. That’s why in 2019 Reserve America, the parent company, added a captcha and verification step to the process, said Moreno. In 2021, to be sure the new methods were effective, they did an analysis of the reservation IPs and time stamps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was determined that automated bots were no longer an issue,” he said. Additionally, any account caught using bots or reselling reservations will be banned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So why are all the campsites already full the second they open up for reservations? “Demand is greater than inventory,” Moreno said. For some of the most popular spots — like the cabins at Steep Ravine in Mount Tamalpais State Park — there might be 100 people logging on for one of eight cabins. “It’s really like a lottery.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Original story, May 11, 2017: \u003c/strong>Abigail Johnston and Steve Fotter have been taking the same vacation for decades. For a week, twice a year, they pack up their car with sleeping bags, books and bug spray and drive an hour to Steep Ravine at Mount Tamalpais State Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nestled along the coast of Marin County, down beneath the cliffs of the Pacific, they make their way to one of 10 primitive wooden cabins. There’s no electricity or running water, but luxury is not why people visit Steep Ravine. They go for the sweeping views of the ocean and a secluded beach a few steps away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450574\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11450574\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-800x609.jpeg\" alt=\"Abigail Johnston inside the Steep Ravine cabins when they first opened to the public.\" width=\"800\" height=\"609\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-800x609.jpeg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-160x122.jpeg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-1020x776.jpeg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-960x731.jpeg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-240x183.jpeg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-375x285.jpeg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-520x396.jpeg 520w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680.jpeg 1147w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Abigail Johnston inside the Steep Ravine cabins when they first opened to the public. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Abigail Johnston)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For Abigail and Steve, this state park is heaven on earth — a sanctuary they’ve been visiting since the cabins opened to the public in 1984. But it’s gotten tough to get a spot. Almost impossible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the registration window opens at 8 a.m. most cabins are booked by 8:01 a.m. Abigail and Steve have been trying to book a cabin for a year now, with no success.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Are others beating them through the reservation system? Or are they falling short because they’re competing against something not quite human: bots?\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450646\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 500px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-image-11450646 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/380315703_a3c9f96a13_z.jpg\" alt=\"The Steep Ravine cabins\" width=\"500\" height=\"375\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/380315703_a3c9f96a13_z.jpg 500w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/380315703_a3c9f96a13_z-160x120.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/380315703_a3c9f96a13_z-240x180.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/380315703_a3c9f96a13_z-375x281.jpg 375w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 500px) 100vw, 500px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Steep Ravine cabins \u003ccite>(Bill Bo Braasch/flickr)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Bots\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Bots are software that can automatically perform routine tasks on the internet. You’ve probably used a bot online and not even realized it, like when you search the web or look for cheap flights on sites like Kayak or Expedia, instead of having to check each airline yourself,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The bots go and pull all that information into one helpful place. But bots can also be used nefariously, such as \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/2016/01/hacker-lexicon-what-are-dos-and-ddos-attacks/\">taking down a website\u003c/a> by overwhelming its servers and making it impossible for legitimate users to access the system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I was unable to confirm if bots are reserving campsites, but they are certainly active on ReserveAmerica’s website.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450604\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 250px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-image-11450604\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-160x123.jpg\" alt=\"A computer screen is filled with code.\" width=\"250\" height=\"191\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-160x123.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-800x613.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-1020x781.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-960x735.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-240x184.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-375x287.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-520x398.jpg 520w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1.jpg 1024w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 250px) 100vw, 250px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A computer screen filled with code. \u003ccite>(Joe Raedle/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Scraping for availability\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Chris Streeter is a software engineer living in San Francisco. He wanted a campsite for Easter weekend at another popular park, \u003ca href=\"http://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=540\">Big Basin Redwoods State Park\u003c/a>. The place was 100 percent booked, but he kept checking the ReserveAmerica website for cancellations — a common strategy for snagging a last-minute spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It involves going to reserveamerica.com, checking to see if there’s a site available. There’s not, so you have to keep coming back super often. I decided to automate the process,” says Streeter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He built a bot that looks for cancellations on ReserveAmerica.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Every 15 minutes [the bot] just checks. And if there’s a site, it posts a little notification in my Mac that says, ‘Hey, there’s a site available,’” says Streeter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This bot is not the only one of its kind. There’s a bot for Yosemite, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The code for the Yosemite bot is posted on GitHub, a code-sharing website. Anyone who finds the code and understands it can use it. It was written by Brian Hansen, another computer engineer based in San Francisco. Hansen is a rock climber and, like most climbers, he sees Yosemite as a mecca.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450576\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-image-11450576 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-800x534.jpg\" alt=\"Yosemite National Park\" width=\"800\" height=\"534\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-800x534.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-160x107.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-960x640.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-240x160.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-375x250.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-520x347.jpg 520w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090.jpg 1024w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Yosemite National Park \u003ccite>(Brendan Smialowski/AFP/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Most climbers I know will set alarms early on May 15th,” wrote Hansen via email. “I personally prefer more spontaneous trips, and was told that my only recourse was to refresh the \u003ca href=\"http://recreation.gov\">recreation.gov\u003c/a> website repeatedly until a campsite opened up due to cancellation.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Hansen’s GitHub stats, people have been copying the bot.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Is it legal?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/3183/all-info\">Better Online Ticket Sales Act\u003c/a> (also called the BOTS Act) targets bots used for ticket scalping at events over a certain size, so the non-commercial personal-use bots built by Streeter and Hansen don’t qualify. Specialists in internet law say that these bots fall into a legal gray area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The bots do violate the website contractors’ \u003ca href=\"http://www.activenetwork.com/information/terms-of-use\">terms of use,\u003c/a> which prohibit the use of robots, bots and scraping. However, in similar cases the terms of use were not found to be legally binding unless agreement to the terms of use was\u003ca href=\"https://h2o.law.harvard.edu/cases/4518\"> prominently displayed\u003c/a> in a location where the users could not miss them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Jeffrey Rosenfeld of KR Internet Law, “If users click to check a box saying they’ve read and agree to the terms and conditions, that would be considered legally binding.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even if it is legally binding, most prosecutors will only go after people who are trying to make money or steal business from the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Unless you’re going to try to commercialize the website’s content, most businesses and website operators won’t care what you do,” says Rosenfeld.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When people do try to commercialize campsites, California State Parks has been quick to shut them down and threaten legal action under the \u003ca href=\"http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-537.html\">California Penal Code\u003c/a>. The last vendor the Parks shut down was called “Adventure Man.” Some vendors make big promises to get customers reservations at the most difficult campgrounds, but California State Parks representatives didn’t know if they used bots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450577\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-image-11450577 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-800x534.jpg\" alt=\"Diamond Valley Lake, near Hemet, California. \" width=\"800\" height=\"534\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-800x534.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-160x107.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-960x640.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-240x160.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-375x250.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-520x347.jpg 520w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708.jpg 1024w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Diamond Valley Lake near Hemet, California. \u003ccite>(David McNew/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Andrea Matwyshyn specializes in technology and innovation policy at Northeastern University. She says Streeter’s and Hansen’s bots could also fall under unauthorized access, but that “in the 9th Circuit, it’s unlikely that this case would be pursued by prosecutors.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hansen has considered that his bot is in a legal gray area, but isn’t worried about prosecution because “it’s such a small project, but [the questionable legality] is why I haven’t made a real website out of this or pursued developing third-party reservation optimization much further,” Hansen wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Is it fair?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Some might say that Streeter and Hansen are problem-solving in an innovative way. Their bots create more free time and could potentially be the start of businesses that create jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Others feel differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s a fairness question. … It’s an act of creating technology haves and technology have nots,” Matwyshyn says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450578\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-image-11450578 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-800x534.jpg\" alt=\"A park ranger directs hikers in Yosemite National Park.\" width=\"800\" height=\"534\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-800x534.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-160x107.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-960x640.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-240x160.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-375x250.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-520x347.jpg 520w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660.jpg 1024w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A park ranger directs hikers in Yosemite National Park. \u003ccite>(Brendan Smialowski/AFP/Getty Image)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Streeter has thought about fairness. He says he could automate the whole process and have a bot that completes his booking for him. He says that program might exist, but he hasn’t built it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I look at it as, I’m not doing anything a human couldn’t do. It’s the same thing as setting an alarm on your phone every 15 minutes,” Streeter says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If he made a faster or more advanced bot, no human could compete with it. And faster, more advanced bots have been built in similar contexts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2013, students at New York’s Baruch College created bots to get \u003ca href=\"http://college.usatoday.com/2013/02/07/opinion-smart-student-hackers-should-be-celebrated-not-punished/\">better registration times for classes\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The student body was very divided over whether they thought the students were cheating or if they were simply using their skills in an innovative way,” says Matwyshyn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bots have been used to gain advantage in the Bay Area restaurant scene, too. Tables at San Francisco restaurant State Bird Provisions have been \u003ca href=\"https://sf.eater.com/2013/7/25/6396753/techies-are-hacking-state-bird-reservations-updated\">a big target for bots\u003c/a>. One company, TableSweep, even scrapes OpenTable for cancellations at top restaurants and charges customers $5 for every successfully booked reservation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450651\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 640px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11450651\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z.jpg\" alt=\"Chef's counter seating at State Bird Provisions on July 27, 2013\" width=\"640\" height=\"427\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z.jpg 640w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z-160x107.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z-240x160.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z-375x250.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z-520x347.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 640px) 100vw, 640px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Chef’s counter seating at State Bird Provisions on July 27, 2013. \u003ccite>(City Foodsters/flickr)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Matwyshyn believes there needs to be space for innovation, but if not everyone has the same access to technology, it raises a lot of questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s a debate that we need to have as a society. And these questions of scraping data and aggregating and reusing [data] are our very entry point to those questions that are going to show up on steroids in the next 10 to 20 years,” says Matwyshyn.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Can we stop it?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The contractor running \u003ca href=\"https://www.reserveamerica.com/welcome.do\">reserveamerica.com\u003c/a> would not return emails or calls requesting comment. But because they work for California State Parks, they did respond to Brian Ketterer, its southern field division chief.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They said they have software that screens for bots. They were not aware of any infiltration into our reservation system,” says Ketterer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A typical bot prevention measure might include adding a CAPTCHA (that’s the “Completely Automated Public Turing test to tell Computers and Humans Apart”), but programmers have gotten around it by hiring real people to fill them out. Artificial intelligence can also be trained to fill out a CAPTCHA.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another preventative measure could be two-step authentication. That’s when a website texts you a number that you must type into the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The parks could also move away from online reservations and back to booking things over the phone. Award-winning Berkeley restaurant Chez Panisse said they’ve never noticed a bot problem and attribute it to the fact that most reservations are completed by phone. Paying for more man-hours could be costly, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450624\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11450624\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"Big Sur State Park\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut.jpg 1920w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-1180x885.jpg 1180w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-960x720.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-240x180.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-375x281.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-520x390.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Big Sur State Park \u003ccite>(Rachael Myrow/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>This could also be tackled from the supply side. After all, these bots were a response to a scarce resource.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Increasing the supply\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“There are only 459 campsites in Yosemite Valley and over 4 million people visit the park each year,” says Yosemite ranger and representative Jamie Richards. “We are fully booked the entire summer and beyond.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The California State Parks system isn’t much better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The real story here is a lack of inventory,” says Ketterer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Almost 40 million people live in California and over 200 million visit the state as tourists each year. According to Ketterer, there are about 14,600 campsites and accommodations available by reservation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And if you look at those numbers, it’s not in your favor. It’s like playing the lottery” he says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has seen the number of reservations steadily increasing. In just the past year, reservations were up by 9 percent, says Ketterer, and parks can’t keep up with growing demand. They don’t have the budget to open and maintain new campsites.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It should also be noted that not all campgrounds are equally popular. According to Ketterer, coastal campsites with accommodations are the most difficult to snag. Even without bots, there is fierce competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’ve heard from people who have businesses using the employees in the office to sit by their computers and sit by their phones and try to get that reservation,” he says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even Ketterer has trouble getting a spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I have yet to visit Crystal Cove State Park as a visitor and I would love to do that. I’ve also tried for Big Sur and I have yet to get into there. And I’ve tried for about five years.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Have you heard of people using bots to get campsites? Have you heard of people using bots for other popular events or items? Send us an email at baycurious@kqed.org.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Correction: An earlier version of this story misstated when the reservation window opens for the Steep Ravine cabins. It’s on the first of each month.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"https://bit.ly/43MYaqt\">Read a transcript of this episode. \u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Several days a week, Bay Curious listener Linda Au walks along the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/trails/interpark/iron-horse\">Iron Horse Regional Trail\u003c/a> in Concord, near where she lives. It’s a paved, multiuse trail that runs alongside the \u003cem>actual\u003c/em> Walnut Creek that the city to the south is named for. Thanks to this winter’s abundant rainfall, tall grasses line the trail and water now flows in what had been a dry creek bed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One day, Au’s job required her to visit an office in Pleasanton and she took a bus to get there. She said that when she arrived at her destination, “I saw the sign for Iron Horse Trail in Pleasanton. I was shocked. I didn’t know that it went all the way down there, and that was when my interest was piqued.” [baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The trail’s name gave a hint of its origins, prompting Au to ask about the train line that preceded it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When did actual trains run? Did they carry passengers? Where were the train stations located? Was the historic Walnut Creek Station one of them?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That last question goes back further in Au’s own life. She grew up in Walnut Creek, where for a long time an old railroad depot housed a steak restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I grew up passing by looking at it thinking, ‘Oh, what a cool building,’” she said. “And then (feeling) kind of sad that it wasn’t used as a train station anymore.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious set out to answer Au’s questions and explore the history of this popular East Bay Regional Park District trail through the San Ramon Valley in Contra Costa County.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A new way to travel\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The transcontinental railroad arrived in California in 1869, with the potential to transform life for area residents. Now travel across the country to Chicago and New York could be done from the relative comfort of a train car rather than along the arduous routes cut by horse-drawn wagons. But to make use of the new system, a person — or a load of freight — first had to get to one of the major rail lines. In the San Ramon Valley, that was a challenge at the time. And winter travel meant muddy, rutted roads that at times became completely impassable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Beverly Lane, curator of the Museum of the San Ramon Valley in Danville and a former board member of the East Bay Regional Park District, says some early residents in the area started to lobby for a branch line of the railroad — a connection that would extend south from the mainline near Martinez.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lane says Southern Pacific wasn’t keen on investing in a branch line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They didn’t see that it would be a big moneymaker,” she said. “And so they said they wouldn’t pay for the right-of-way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The right-of-way is the corridor of land that contains the train tracks and a buffer on either side. The railroad company needs to own it in order to put down track and operate a train. Lane says much of the proposed right-of-way was privately owned at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People had to deed the right-of-way to them, and there were some people who didn’t see why they should be giving [away] land that would go through their ranch, when others were going to take advantage of [the train] and they didn’t lose land to the railroad,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ultimately, deep-pocketed supporters of the branch line raised $15,000 to buy rights from the reluctant landowners. That’s about half a million dollars in today’s money. The rest of the needed land was donated, and the branch line was built and began operating in 1891.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11952481\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Depot-1892.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11952481\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Depot-1892-800x490.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white image of a train station. People mill about near the building. A steam engine is on the tracks, and a horse and carriage sits outside the building.\" width=\"800\" height=\"490\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Depot-1892-800x490.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Depot-1892-160x98.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Depot-1892.jpg 813w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The lively Danville train depot in 1892, one year after the San Ramon Branch Line was built to connect the San Ramon Valley to the larger transcontinental railroad. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Museum of the San Ramon Valley)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“When the train first started, there was lots of enthusiasm and it carried passengers and freight,” Lane said. “People came on excursions. So it was an all-purpose Southern Pacific steam railroad.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Having a train line changed the communities, especially where the tracks ran close to downtown, as in Danville. Lane says that community gained its first subdivision as a direct result of the train. A major landowner carved up his property so the town could expand to fill the one long block from downtown to the train depot. After its initial success, Southern Pacific extended the line a bit farther south to connect to the Oakland-to-Tracy mainline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Within 20 years of the train’s arrival in the San Ramon Valley, the population of Contra Costa County had more than doubled. Growth was happening all around, of course, but the train certainly contributed. It made year-round travel reliable, and because shipping was so much faster, farmers shifted from growing grain, which could be stored for a long time, to more perishable things like cherries and pears. Warehouses presented new business ventures, and with people traveling more, hotels and other amenities helped small towns grow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the rapid rise of cars and trucks spelled doom for the line — regular passenger service ended in the 1930s. Service picked up during World War II, when trains ferried soldiers through the valley and hauled rock for military construction projects. But after the war, Southern Pacific’s use of the tracks diminished further. Lane says when she moved to Danville in the 1970s, the company would occasionally send a train down the line “just to assert their ability to run a train.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11952480\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-MuseumSRV-bldg-ahm_1185-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11952480\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-MuseumSRV-bldg-ahm_1185-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"A light brown wooden building with dark brown trim and many windows.\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-MuseumSRV-bldg-ahm_1185-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-MuseumSRV-bldg-ahm_1185-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-MuseumSRV-bldg-ahm_1185-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-MuseumSRV-bldg-ahm_1185-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-MuseumSRV-bldg-ahm_1185-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-MuseumSRV-bldg-ahm_1185-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Museum of the San Ramon Valley in Danville is housed in that city’s original train depot, built back in 1891. \u003ccite>(Amy Mayer/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Repurposing the right-of-way\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Southern Pacific ended service altogether in the 1970s, a time when many little-used train tracks were being decommissioned throughout the country. This often prompted residents to look differently at the straight, clear corridors, generally filled with weeds and abandoned tracks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The national \u003ca href=\"https://www.railstotrails.org/\">rails-to-trails movement\u003c/a> was gaining momentum at the time. Since the early 1980s, across the country some 24,000 miles of trails have replaced train tracks on existing rights-of-way — including more than 1,000 miles in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lane and a group of trail supporters asked the East Bay Regional Park District about converting the San Ramon Branch Line into a multiuse trail. They were surprised to learn the agency, which serves Alameda and Contra Costa counties, had that project on its radar, though it wasn’t top of the priority list.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It made a big difference if there was a public group that was advocating for it,” Lane said, “which indeed was the case.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Contra Costa County was able to buy the right-of-way from Southern Pacific, and that preserved the space for public use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In stops and starts, that’s how the Iron Horse Regional Trail came about,” Lane said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11952479\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-Beverly-Lane-w-doors-ahm_1174-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11952479\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-Beverly-Lane-w-doors-ahm_1174-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"An older woman with white hair unlatches a pair of sliding doors.\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-Beverly-Lane-w-doors-ahm_1174-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-Beverly-Lane-w-doors-ahm_1174-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-Beverly-Lane-w-doors-ahm_1174-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-Beverly-Lane-w-doors-ahm_1174-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-Beverly-Lane-w-doors-ahm_1174-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-Beverly-Lane-w-doors-ahm_1174-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Historian Beverly Lane demonstrates how the historic Danville train depot’s original sliding doors still function. \u003ccite>(Amy Mayer/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The original Walnut Creek train depot has been expanded and renovated, and the refurbished building sits right on the trail. The same building style is also preserved in Danville, where the original depot building now houses the \u003ca href=\"https://museumsrv.org/\">Museum of the San Ramon Valley\u003c/a>. The regional history museum is not focused on trains, but remnants of the building’s history remain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lane unlatches the original large sliding doors that open to the street side. A matching set would have been on the track side to allow easy transit of cargo between wagons and train cars. A scale built into the floor is still present and functional. The brown and beige two-story building has many windows that flood the indoor space with natural light. The stationmaster would have lived on the second floor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While today’s runners, cyclists, inline skaters and dog walkers could travel miles on the trail without considering its railroad history, there’s no denying that the Iron Horse Regional Trail is a direct descendant of the San Ramon Branch Line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"excerpt": "Iron Horse Regional Trail in the East Bay runs more than 30 miles. Its origins go back to the first train line in the San Ramon Valley, which forever changed the towns in that area.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"https://bit.ly/43MYaqt\">Read a transcript of this episode. \u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Several days a week, Bay Curious listener Linda Au walks along the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/trails/interpark/iron-horse\">Iron Horse Regional Trail\u003c/a> in Concord, near where she lives. It’s a paved, multiuse trail that runs alongside the \u003cem>actual\u003c/em> Walnut Creek that the city to the south is named for. Thanks to this winter’s abundant rainfall, tall grasses line the trail and water now flows in what had been a dry creek bed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One day, Au’s job required her to visit an office in Pleasanton and she took a bus to get there. She said that when she arrived at her destination, “I saw the sign for Iron Horse Trail in Pleasanton. I was shocked. I didn’t know that it went all the way down there, and that was when my interest was piqued.” \u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The trail’s name gave a hint of its origins, prompting Au to ask about the train line that preceded it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When did actual trains run? Did they carry passengers? Where were the train stations located? Was the historic Walnut Creek Station one of them?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That last question goes back further in Au’s own life. She grew up in Walnut Creek, where for a long time an old railroad depot housed a steak restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I grew up passing by looking at it thinking, ‘Oh, what a cool building,’” she said. “And then (feeling) kind of sad that it wasn’t used as a train station anymore.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious set out to answer Au’s questions and explore the history of this popular East Bay Regional Park District trail through the San Ramon Valley in Contra Costa County.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A new way to travel\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The transcontinental railroad arrived in California in 1869, with the potential to transform life for area residents. Now travel across the country to Chicago and New York could be done from the relative comfort of a train car rather than along the arduous routes cut by horse-drawn wagons. But to make use of the new system, a person — or a load of freight — first had to get to one of the major rail lines. In the San Ramon Valley, that was a challenge at the time. And winter travel meant muddy, rutted roads that at times became completely impassable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Beverly Lane, curator of the Museum of the San Ramon Valley in Danville and a former board member of the East Bay Regional Park District, says some early residents in the area started to lobby for a branch line of the railroad — a connection that would extend south from the mainline near Martinez.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lane says Southern Pacific wasn’t keen on investing in a branch line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They didn’t see that it would be a big moneymaker,” she said. “And so they said they wouldn’t pay for the right-of-way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The right-of-way is the corridor of land that contains the train tracks and a buffer on either side. The railroad company needs to own it in order to put down track and operate a train. Lane says much of the proposed right-of-way was privately owned at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People had to deed the right-of-way to them, and there were some people who didn’t see why they should be giving [away] land that would go through their ranch, when others were going to take advantage of [the train] and they didn’t lose land to the railroad,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ultimately, deep-pocketed supporters of the branch line raised $15,000 to buy rights from the reluctant landowners. That’s about half a million dollars in today’s money. The rest of the needed land was donated, and the branch line was built and began operating in 1891.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11952481\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Depot-1892.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11952481\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Depot-1892-800x490.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white image of a train station. People mill about near the building. A steam engine is on the tracks, and a horse and carriage sits outside the building.\" width=\"800\" height=\"490\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Depot-1892-800x490.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Depot-1892-160x98.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Depot-1892.jpg 813w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The lively Danville train depot in 1892, one year after the San Ramon Branch Line was built to connect the San Ramon Valley to the larger transcontinental railroad. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Museum of the San Ramon Valley)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“When the train first started, there was lots of enthusiasm and it carried passengers and freight,” Lane said. “People came on excursions. So it was an all-purpose Southern Pacific steam railroad.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Having a train line changed the communities, especially where the tracks ran close to downtown, as in Danville. Lane says that community gained its first subdivision as a direct result of the train. A major landowner carved up his property so the town could expand to fill the one long block from downtown to the train depot. After its initial success, Southern Pacific extended the line a bit farther south to connect to the Oakland-to-Tracy mainline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Within 20 years of the train’s arrival in the San Ramon Valley, the population of Contra Costa County had more than doubled. Growth was happening all around, of course, but the train certainly contributed. It made year-round travel reliable, and because shipping was so much faster, farmers shifted from growing grain, which could be stored for a long time, to more perishable things like cherries and pears. Warehouses presented new business ventures, and with people traveling more, hotels and other amenities helped small towns grow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the rapid rise of cars and trucks spelled doom for the line — regular passenger service ended in the 1930s. Service picked up during World War II, when trains ferried soldiers through the valley and hauled rock for military construction projects. But after the war, Southern Pacific’s use of the tracks diminished further. Lane says when she moved to Danville in the 1970s, the company would occasionally send a train down the line “just to assert their ability to run a train.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11952480\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-MuseumSRV-bldg-ahm_1185-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11952480\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-MuseumSRV-bldg-ahm_1185-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"A light brown wooden building with dark brown trim and many windows.\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-MuseumSRV-bldg-ahm_1185-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-MuseumSRV-bldg-ahm_1185-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-MuseumSRV-bldg-ahm_1185-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-MuseumSRV-bldg-ahm_1185-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-MuseumSRV-bldg-ahm_1185-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-MuseumSRV-bldg-ahm_1185-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Museum of the San Ramon Valley in Danville is housed in that city’s original train depot, built back in 1891. \u003ccite>(Amy Mayer/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Repurposing the right-of-way\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Southern Pacific ended service altogether in the 1970s, a time when many little-used train tracks were being decommissioned throughout the country. This often prompted residents to look differently at the straight, clear corridors, generally filled with weeds and abandoned tracks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The national \u003ca href=\"https://www.railstotrails.org/\">rails-to-trails movement\u003c/a> was gaining momentum at the time. Since the early 1980s, across the country some 24,000 miles of trails have replaced train tracks on existing rights-of-way — including more than 1,000 miles in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lane and a group of trail supporters asked the East Bay Regional Park District about converting the San Ramon Branch Line into a multiuse trail. They were surprised to learn the agency, which serves Alameda and Contra Costa counties, had that project on its radar, though it wasn’t top of the priority list.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It made a big difference if there was a public group that was advocating for it,” Lane said, “which indeed was the case.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Contra Costa County was able to buy the right-of-way from Southern Pacific, and that preserved the space for public use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In stops and starts, that’s how the Iron Horse Regional Trail came about,” Lane said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11952479\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-Beverly-Lane-w-doors-ahm_1174-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11952479\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-Beverly-Lane-w-doors-ahm_1174-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"An older woman with white hair unlatches a pair of sliding doors.\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-Beverly-Lane-w-doors-ahm_1174-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-Beverly-Lane-w-doors-ahm_1174-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-Beverly-Lane-w-doors-ahm_1174-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-Beverly-Lane-w-doors-ahm_1174-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-Beverly-Lane-w-doors-ahm_1174-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/04252023-Beverly-Lane-w-doors-ahm_1174-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Historian Beverly Lane demonstrates how the historic Danville train depot’s original sliding doors still function. \u003ccite>(Amy Mayer/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The original Walnut Creek train depot has been expanded and renovated, and the refurbished building sits right on the trail. The same building style is also preserved in Danville, where the original depot building now houses the \u003ca href=\"https://museumsrv.org/\">Museum of the San Ramon Valley\u003c/a>. The regional history museum is not focused on trains, but remnants of the building’s history remain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lane unlatches the original large sliding doors that open to the street side. A matching set would have been on the track side to allow easy transit of cargo between wagons and train cars. A scale built into the floor is still present and functional. The brown and beige two-story building has many windows that flood the indoor space with natural light. The stationmaster would have lived on the second floor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While today’s runners, cyclists, inline skaters and dog walkers could travel miles on the trail without considering its railroad history, there’s no denying that the Iron Horse Regional Trail is a direct descendant of the San Ramon Branch Line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"marketplace": {
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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},
"mindshift": {
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"order": 12
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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"morning-edition": {
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"onourwatch": {
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"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"on-the-media": {
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"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
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},
"pbs-newshour": {
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},
"perspectives": {
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"order": 14
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"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
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"politicalbreakdown": {
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"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Political-Breakdown-2024-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 5
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"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Possible-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.possible.fm/",
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"source": "Possible"
},
"link": "/radio/program/possible",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/730YpdUSNlMyPQwNnyjp4k"
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},
"pri-the-world": {
"id": "pri-the-world",
"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 2pm-3pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
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},
"radiolab": {
"id": "radiolab",
"title": "Radiolab",
"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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